Chris Voss on The Forward Podcast with Lance Armstrong — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00alright ladies and gentlemen welcome
2. 0:01back to the forward podcast I know it's
3. 0:03been a min and I don't even remember the
4. 0:05last time I did a foreword an episode of
5. 0:08the foreword but this one this one it
6. 0:10was just sort of sprung on in my lap via
7. 0:12sitting next to somebody on an airplane
8. 0:14I get into the full story in the show I
9. 0:17normally don't like to talk to anybody
10. 0:19on airplanes but this one ended up being
11. 0:22a very interesting airplane ride I think
12. 0:24you'll find the conversation even more
13. 0:27interesting my guest is Chris Voss a
14. 0:28former FBI hostage negotiator wrote a
15. 0:33best-selling book never split the
16. 0:34difference basically took his
17. 0:36experiences very real life very serious
18. 0:40experiences of negotiating for the
19. 0:42release of hostages and translated it
20. 0:45into sort of everyday life so whether
21. 0:46you're in a relationship whether you're
22. 0:48a business person whether you're
23. 0:49whatever some really helpful insights
24. 0:53negotiating as if your life depended on
25. 0:56it
26. 0:57that sounds pretty damn serious so enjoy
27. 1:02that one other things outside of just
28. 1:05want to wish everybody a happy holiday
29. 1:06season I know this is a you know a fun
30. 1:10time for a lot of people but it's also a
31. 1:11stressful time you know this this this
32. 1:14time of year is is while it's all sort
33. 1:18of supposed to be this feel-good warm
34. 1:21fuzzy time of the year I know that that
35. 1:23sometimes it disappoints for people and
36. 1:24so if you're if you are some of those
37. 1:26people hang in there and you know try to
38. 1:29enjoy this holiday season I always tell
39. 1:31people you know spending twenty thirty
40. 1:33years out on the road
41. 1:35interacting with cars when I was on my
42. 1:37bike that's always a contentious
43. 1:40relationship but the holiday season was
44. 1:42always the worst time of the year and at
45. 1:44that point in my life I realized this
46. 1:45this is this stresses people out but
47. 1:48anyways hang in there folks and if
48. 1:50you're not stressed you know what then
49. 1:51have a Merry Christmas Happy Hanukkah
50. 1:53Kwanzaa all that stuff so last thing
51. 1:56before we get to mr. Voss but again just
52. 1:58a fascinating conversation I'd like to
53. 2:00thank and touch on an organization that
54. 2:03I just joined the board of it's called
55. 2:04wish for wheels wish for wheels started
56. 2:07by Brad and his team an amazing young
57. 2:10organization that gives away right gives
58. 2:12away free
59. 2:13bicycles and helmets to second graders
60. 2:16right and so they now are doing annually
61. 2:19about 6,000 bike giveaways 6,000
62. 2:22individual bikes to second graders the
63. 2:24cool thing about it is they're now
64. 2:26they've done it long enough that they're
65. 2:28now able to see and track just what this
66. 2:31does to the life of a child that has a
67. 2:33bike whether it whether it's just
68. 2:36general fitness whether it's attendance
69. 2:38whether it's their grades whether it's
70. 2:39their attention span all of these things
71. 2:42drastically improve when a child has a
72. 2:45bike and so thanks to Brad and the rest
73. 2:49of the board for having me on obviously
74. 2:50I'm passionate about bicycles and kids
75. 2:52and so I look forward to working with
76. 2:55them and if you guys are interested go
77. 2:57check out wish for wheels dot org you
78. 3:01can read a little bit about their story
79. 3:02about the team great organization I look
80. 3:05forward to digging in with them and
81. 3:07doing some good and giving away bikes I
82. 3:09mean as far as I'm concerned a million
83. 3:11bikes a year sounds good to me
84. 3:12to the kids who need it the most so
85. 3:15thanks for tuning in happy holidays
86. 3:17[Music]
87. 3:23Chris thanks for being here Lance it is
88. 3:26my pleasure thank you thank you so I
89. 3:28just want to write out right from the
90. 3:29start I want to just set the scene and
91. 3:32the stage for the listener or the viewer
92. 3:34all right how you and me came to be
93. 3:37sitting here yeah so I'm flying this
94. 3:41course travel hell which I always have
95. 3:43from Aspen back to to Austin here
96. 3:45between the two homes and so I'm getting
97. 3:49from Colorado basically - to Austin so I
98. 3:51connect in Dallas yeah you and me on the
99. 3:55same plane from Dallas to Austin which
100. 3:57is not a long flight 30-minute flight
101. 3:59both sitting I think you're five B and
102. 4:02I'm five a right you get on when you're
103. 4:06supposed to get on when they say Group
104. 4:07one can board the plane you get on we'll
105. 4:11see I never do group one I do I wait for
106. 4:13all the groups to go and I get on last
107. 4:15and you're sitting there with this empty
108. 4:18seat as you told me he said that this is
109. 4:20why let's see it's gonna be empty
110. 4:21somebody's yeah I can't believe nobody
111. 4:22sitting there and then a scruffy little
112. 4:24white guy comes walking a scruffy little
113. 4:26white guy with his air pods in yeah who
114. 4:28doesn't want to be bothered
115. 4:30yep and I didn't have my sunglasses on I
116. 4:32usually do you probably like this sketch
117. 4:34ball look at this guy so air pods in I
118. 4:37sit down at first of all you have to get
119. 4:38up I have to go over you sit down and
120. 4:40get my iPad get all ready I'm here you
121. 4:42know nobody's gonna [ __ ] with me talk to
122. 4:44me and I hear and I hear this voice I'm
123. 4:46like is this dude talking to me yeah and
124. 4:51I'm like take one out I'm like huh and
125. 4:54you're like we have a we have a mutual
126. 4:57friend great friend and you know that
127. 4:59you know I'm like I've heard this a few
128. 5:02times be some name I've never even heard
129. 5:04of you say Jeff Spencer yeah I said holy
130. 5:07[ __ ] Jeff Spencer is a great guy
131. 5:10for the listener and the viewers so Jeff
132. 5:12was he's he's more than a chiropractor
133. 5:15he's a healer physical therapist healer
134. 5:18he's a guru right and so for and as I
135. 5:20told you on the plane he came the GM of
136. 5:24our team brought him to the first tour
137. 5:25in 1999 said he's really good it's
138. 5:28really expensive or small team we could
139. 5:30have him for a week he's there for like
140. 5:32five days and I say to the GM I said he
141. 5:35even he's staying work ethic yeah
142. 5:39just and the guys are vibing on it and
143. 5:41he's he's literally healing these guys
144. 5:43guys are crashing guys are getting hurt
145. 5:44in the recovery in the middle of the
146. 5:46Tour de France I say he'll even yeah and
147. 5:49he's doing all kinds of crazy stuff as
148. 5:50you you know Jeff so he says-- for all
149. 5:53seven tours he never leaves
150. 5:55yeah so I'll dude he's a great and and
151. 5:58you know you drop a name like Jeff
152. 5:59Spencer and you're like okay we're gonna
153. 6:02have a conversation so earpods come out
154. 6:04we strike up this conversation and and
155. 6:07and to get to the point unto the point
156. 6:09of why we're sitting here what we're
157. 6:10going to talk about is like what's
158. 6:11what's what are you doing in Austin and
159. 6:13then it starts yeah I was a form as a 20
160. 6:16year hostage negotiator for the FBI I'm
161. 6:19like what hey guys making this out
162. 6:22that's like meet an astronaut like I
163. 6:23never met an astronaut that's like
164. 6:25meeting I'm like holy cow and I'm giving
165. 6:28a seminar in Austin you know to 50
166. 6:31people and I wrote a best-seller I'm
167. 6:32like wait a minute wait timeout I'm so
168. 6:34[ __ ] glad that I took out my air pots
169. 6:37and listen to this guy so let's get into
170. 6:40it I mean this and the other thing I
171. 6:42really love is I started digging in your
172. 6:43life you grew up in Iowa
173. 6:44so I have a I have a deep deep love for
174. 6:47Iowa really because RAGBRAI oh yeah so
175. 6:51I've done once and went through my
176. 6:52hometown yes it it's a it's a great
177. 6:55event and I've done it probably seven or
178. 6:57eight times
179. 6:58really yeah love it I mean that's really
180. 6:59so you see all of Iowa yeah but that's
181. 7:03and as you say in a lot of your speeches
182. 7:04you don't sound like you sound like you
183. 7:05grew up in Brooklyn but thank you that's
184. 7:08part of the stick now it just happened
185. 7:10yeah but just just to give a the
186. 7:13audience a sense of the curve that you
187. 7:15started as a just a cop guys just go
188. 7:17crazy mo P they can't stay in Missouri
189. 7:20right
190. 7:20yeah good very good Police Department
191. 7:22very good Town but how does that get I
192. 7:24mean from being just a cop on the
193. 7:27streets to being at Guantanamo
194. 7:30that's quite that that's quite the curve
195. 7:32yeah well you know you go up to i-80 and
196. 7:35you make it right okay and swim yeah
197. 7:39yeah no um all right so I from my
198. 7:42mid-teens I knew I wanted to be a cop
199. 7:44cause I saw a movie and a police a real
200. 7:47true story to to police
201. 7:49officers in New York City the super cops
202. 7:51but what I what I loved about it was the
203. 7:53guys were really creative
204. 7:55actually I didn't another thing I loved
205. 7:57about I didn't realize at the time was
206. 7:58they were kind of they were extremely
207. 8:01independent like they didn't really do
208. 8:03what their boss has told them to do but
209. 8:04they always got the bad guy right so
210. 8:07they were really creative and how they
211. 8:08approached it I loved the creativity and
212. 8:10the community loved them they were
213. 8:12working in a neighborhood bed-stuy at
214. 8:14that time was you know not gentrified
215. 8:16was very tough place and it was a
216. 8:19classic example why every community
217. 8:21regardless of the community still mostly
218. 8:24good people and they were in one of the
219. 8:26toughest neighborhoods in New York City
220. 8:28and good people in that neighborhood
221. 8:29loved them cuz and good people in a
222. 8:32neighbor you know didn't like the bad
223. 8:33guys and they threw a lot of bad guys in
224. 8:35jail and they were ridiculously
225. 8:37independent and that kind of ended up
226. 8:39how I was in my career and so but then I
227. 8:42went out became a police officer after
228. 8:44my father paid for a college degree and
229. 8:46I go out and I get a job that doesn't
230. 8:47require a contract except GED yeah yeah
231. 8:51please Academy yeah yeah it's basically
232. 8:53yeah so my father encouraged me to look
233. 8:55at federal law enforcement and I ended
234. 8:57up in the FBI Wow
235. 9:00you know one thing is I'm because when
236. 9:03you talk about international hostage
237. 9:06negotiations that's very different than
238. 9:10talking or negotiating with the guy over
239. 9:12here in Austin Texas who's just robbed a
240. 9:14bank and he's got two hostages you you
241. 9:16and him are speaking English and yeah
242. 9:17it's a little different what happens
243. 9:19because you've negotiated situations in
244. 9:20and the Philippines and Haiti in the
245. 9:25Middle East and wherever I mean how
246. 9:28would you negotiate with somebody that
247. 9:30speaks Sunni or speaks Filipino yeah
248. 9:36well what I really was and I was a
249. 9:38negotiation coach ketchup like I in it's
250. 9:41probably a little bit Eagle centric or
251. 9:45you know overblown but I think of myself
252. 9:48a lot more as Phil Jackson to Michael
253. 9:49Jordan mm-hmm you know Phil Jackson
254. 9:52mm-hmm nearly every basketball player
255. 9:58that has a championship ring
256. 10:00that played for him only has it when
257. 10:02they played for him hmm you know a lot
258. 10:05of people Kobe Bryant doesn't have a
259. 10:07ring without Phil Jackson Michael Jordan
260. 10:09doesn't have a ring without Phil Jackson
261. 10:11and Phil Jackson although a very good
262. 10:13basketball play he didn't even start for
263. 10:14the Knicks so but he studied the game
264. 10:18and he studied people and you know you
265. 10:20understood how instant understood of
266. 10:22human nature so I hate I coached
267. 10:26internationally I all I need drop me in
268. 10:28a country it doesn't matter what country
269. 10:29it is I need to all I need to do is find
270. 10:32somebody who's coachable drop me in an
271. 10:34industry doesn't matter what industry it
272. 10:35is all I need is people who are
273. 10:37coachable I understand human nature you
274. 10:40understand your business you understand
275. 10:42your country your market whatever it is
276. 10:44mm-hmm you put me and you together we're
277. 10:47gonna make it happen so you have and in
278. 10:48the case of Middle East or the
279. 10:50Philippines or wherever that there is a
280. 10:51you're coaching there's somebody
281. 10:53obviously somebody there I'm gonna coach
282. 10:55right yes and and you can coach them
283. 10:57because as I've learned not just reading
284. 11:00about your life and watching all the
285. 11:01videos but being a part of the seminar
286. 11:02yesterday so much is about tone so you
287. 11:05have to coach them not just what to say
288. 11:06but how to say how to say it given the
289. 11:09late night FM DJ you talk about that all
290. 11:13the time it's so funny it's true though
291. 11:15yeah you see them when you started
292. 11:17talking about like I'm gonna listen to
293. 11:19this guy say I'm the Jeff's Hudson Park
294. 11:22yeah well you know I see that was a bit
295. 11:24of a Rorschach test for me too cuz Jeff
296. 11:27is such a good guy I'm gonna know and I
297. 11:30don't know how long it's been since you
298. 11:31guys have seen each other in a minute
299. 11:33but it's you know there's a core value
300. 11:35match if if if you if you still like
301. 11:39Jeff Spencer if you guys have maintained
302. 11:41a relationship and when I sent that
303. 11:43picture to him I mean he lit right up
304. 11:45and meet it and I also got a message
305. 11:47from his wife because you asked me about
306. 11:48he was still with his wife and his wife
307. 11:50sent me a message talking about what a
308. 11:52great guy you are and so I'm like I'm
309. 11:54like awesome cool you know this this is
310. 11:56a mutual friend and her dogs checking
311. 11:59out yeah and passing the filters yeah
312. 12:02yeah and I know you I know whether I are
313. 12:04you gonna want to talk to me because I'm
314. 12:05not you know what I realized who you are
315. 12:07mmm-hmm I'm like if right away if he's
316. 12:11not interested in talking me I'm not
317. 12:13gonna bother
318. 12:14right yeah I mean I've been on a lot of
319. 12:16those planes where the air paws go but
320. 12:17straight back in yeah you exchanged the
321. 12:19sort of initial yeah you don't know that
322. 12:21person good yeah yeah man have a good
323. 12:24day watching Netflix you know it's now
324. 12:27but I realized I was I was in a special
325. 12:29seat and for a special reason so so you
326. 12:31write this bestseller after you retire
327. 12:34from from the FBI
328. 12:36never split the difference yeah and
329. 12:39somebody asked a great question right
330. 12:42away yesterday at the seminar and I
331. 12:43don't know if it was almost like it was
332. 12:44a planted question and they said and
333. 12:48I've never heard this question is there
334. 12:49such thing as a win-win alright yeah
335. 12:52because people people throw that out
336. 12:56there all the time was a win-win you
337. 12:58know I'd like to win win you'd like win
338. 13:00win we'd all like a win-win right but is
339. 13:02there is there such a thing well it's
340. 13:05kind of nice first of all two things on
341. 13:07that like all right theoretically I if I
342. 13:10make you feel like you lost then you're
343. 13:14not gonna want to do business with me
344. 13:15ever again and also in the course of the
345. 13:18deal you're gonna pay me back you're
346. 13:19gonna be resentful if you feel like you
347. 13:21lost so the real issue is did you feel
348. 13:24like you know that you had you say it's
349. 13:27emotionally is it's a whole different
350. 13:29set of emotional rules now we tend to
351. 13:32avoid the phrase win-win because
352. 13:34actually anybody that says win-win right
353. 13:38off the bat is usually trying to pick my
354. 13:40pocket I give in in the first five
355. 13:43minutes you say hey I want a win-win
356. 13:44deal that's the sign of a shark heads up
357. 13:47and heads up this you're gonna you're
358. 13:49gonna try to get my stuff for nothing
359. 13:51what you really want is I want to win
360. 13:53I'm trying to sucker you into open it up
361. 13:55and I'm gonna pick your pocket so it's a
362. 13:57really interesting test of whether or
363. 14:00not the guy across the tables for me is
364. 14:01gonna try and you know cut my throat and
365. 14:04if you say win-win right away what you
366. 14:06mean is you want my stuff for nothing
367. 14:08and then if and then if you're thinking
368. 14:12it if you think it over too much it
369. 14:15makes some people vulnerable they go
370. 14:18like oh yeah I want to win win and they
371. 14:19get really cooperative and it's easy to
372. 14:21pick their pocket so understanding what
373. 14:24the terminology really means when
374. 14:25somebody uses it
375. 14:26any point of fact if you feel like you
376. 14:30lost that's a problem for me and also if
377. 14:32I wipe you out that's a problem for me
378. 14:35too because then it's a scorched-earth
379. 14:38approach to negotiation you burn every
380. 14:40Bridge across and you run out of bridges
381. 14:42mmm so you got to be real careful about
382. 14:45whether or not the other side feels like
383. 14:47they lost and then also I can't
384. 14:49slaughter you I mean it's it was that a
385. 14:52year supply chain you go conference a
386. 14:55couple years ago and guys had
387. 14:56specialized in supply chain and one of
388. 15:00the people said to me and yeah we got to
389. 15:01be really careful because if we're the
390. 15:04only customer or the people that we do
391. 15:05business with we put them out of
392. 15:07business
393. 15:07and all that hmm I'm not sure I'd be
394. 15:11proud of that
395. 15:12and then also you put everybody out of
396. 15:15business you do business with where does
397. 15:16that leave you alone on an island right
398. 15:18right one-man band and all of this and
399. 15:22you talk about it in the book and you
400. 15:23talk about it at the seminar is this
401. 15:25this tactical empathy this this and then
402. 15:28you get into this talk of the limbic
403. 15:29system for the record I have never in my
404. 15:32life heard of the limbic system yeah I
405. 15:35don't know the gaming system you know
406. 15:37you go to Vegas Olympic system and you
407. 15:38can win a blackjack but it's all but but
408. 15:41this is this is you know this is
409. 15:44psychological and emotional warfare yeah
410. 15:49well yeah yeah it's neuroscience
411. 15:52neuroscience warfare yeah yeah I
412. 15:55understand how your brain works
413. 15:56yeah and it's war it's it's either the
414. 15:59money the only people that understands
415. 16:01how my brain works that statement is in
416. 16:04fact you dude there's a lot of people
417. 16:06who want to talk to you their hands
418. 16:08afterwards right so but but this this
419. 16:13you teach a lot of tactical empathy
420. 16:15right and the definition of empathy I
421. 16:18mean I think when we think of empathy we
422. 16:20think of compassion tom was just
423. 16:23diagnosed with cancer and and and and I
424. 16:26feel yeah yeah how people express their
425. 16:28their condolences or their you know
426. 16:30empathy right yeah well it when it
427. 16:33become synonymous with sympathy or
428. 16:36agreement or compassion which it's not
429. 16:38it was never it was never at the word
430. 16:39was
431. 16:40never designed to mean that it was it's
432. 16:42always been designed to for basically
433. 16:45for identification of perspective you
434. 16:48know from and it's originally a
435. 16:49translation of a German word about
436. 16:51people trying to understand art but it
437. 16:55then it became applied in the 1970s you
438. 16:57started getting using the terminology
439. 16:59and human interaction Carl Rogers and
440. 17:01then it's become synonymous with
441. 17:04sympathy in in the way it's people think
442. 17:08of it but it's not it's the reason when
443. 17:11I first started collaborating with the
444. 17:12people at Harvard Bob manukan wrote a
445. 17:14great book on negotiation called beyond
446. 17:16winning and he just flat-out says
447. 17:21empathy is not sympathy empathy is not
448. 17:24agreement it's not even being nice it's
449. 17:27completely understanding where
450. 17:28somebody's coming from and if you can
451. 17:30define it like that then you can
452. 17:32exercise it with anybody I can do it
453. 17:33with the terrorists got guns he's got
454. 17:37dynamite he's got you're trying to
455. 17:39figure out where he's coming from yeah
456. 17:40that's it and then if I once I
457. 17:43articulated I mean it's really like a
458. 17:45magic spell because people just open up
459. 17:49and unlock and they change and we now
460. 17:52know because we got neuroscience if I if
461. 17:54I can get your empathy going you're
462. 17:57gonna start getting hits of dopamine
463. 17:59oxytocin serotonin oxytocin the bonding
464. 18:04chemical mmm you're gonna feel bonded to
465. 18:06me and you know training we did
466. 18:08yesterday actually interesting somebody
467. 18:10brought it up in our training TSA's so
468. 18:13what you're saying is you want them to
469. 18:14feel bonded to you without you
470. 18:17necessarily being bonded to them right
471. 18:19and I say I would think so as a matter
472. 18:22of fact that's it exactly
473. 18:23yeah hey and just now I get influenced
474. 18:28and just pull them out of that situation
475. 18:29right yeah so and how many of these
476. 18:32cases have you Phil Jackson's coached
477. 18:35all over the world you know I've
478. 18:39estimated the number I won fifty because
479. 18:41I knew it was more than that so I wanted
480. 18:43to go with relatively low relatively low
481. 18:46number between the kidnappings and most
482. 18:49of my experiences kidnapping experience
483. 18:51negotiations some can you know the local
484. 18:54us stuff which is I did a bank robbery
485. 18:58with hostages which actually is a really
486. 19:00rare event whether it's actual
487. 19:02negotiation and worked a you know a
488. 19:06couple of smaller and a couple larger
489. 19:07sieges and some some weird stuff to the
490. 19:10DC sniper case way back when that was a
491. 19:12negotiation yeah so stuff like that so
492. 19:17hunt we'll call it hundreds yeah in the
493. 19:19world yeah what happens because I know
494. 19:23the goal is for them to be successful in
495. 19:26the hostages to be released that can't
496. 19:28always happen it has to or does it
497. 19:31always happen well it depends someone's
498. 19:32be hard to bat a thousand no you don't
499. 19:34bat a thousand absolutely not and it has
500. 19:36to be times where you just can't the
501. 19:38person is too far gone and and and and
502. 19:40there's it's a fatal situation well and
503. 19:43you you usually can see that from the
504. 19:44very beginning like the the exercise
505. 19:47that we did yesterday sixty Seconds so
506. 19:51she dies right I love that I should be
507. 19:53dying if I was I mean I was I was so
508. 19:55perplexed by how these people were
509. 19:57handling this and I was so glad that I
510. 19:59didn't have to do it it's it's a lot of
511. 20:02it's on your website you there's a
512. 20:03there's an example of it for the
513. 20:05listener of the viewer you should check
514. 20:06it out what Black Swan group calm yeah
515. 20:08well it's on our YouTube channel toward
516. 20:10YouTube channel on Black Swan group but
517. 20:12you'll see how and it's just what do you
518. 20:15do it's intense right yeah yeah and but
519. 20:19anyway the reason I brought that up is
520. 20:22if the bad guy on the inside if there's
521. 20:23a demand for if there's an escape demand
522. 20:26it's probably gonna be okay the real
523. 20:29problem is if the if the guy says and
524. 20:32the first time this has ever seen in
525. 20:33Rochester New York he just said if you
526. 20:36don't kill me by two o'clock he said
527. 20:39what he said you gotta kill me by two
528. 20:40o'clock the important thing about that
529. 20:43was there was no estate no escape demand
530. 20:45if he says look if you give me a car by
531. 20:48two o'clock or somebody's gonna die that
532. 20:50guy wants to live but if he says you
533. 20:54guys got to come in by two o'clock
534. 20:56there's no escape - man that guy doesn't
535. 20:58want to live so you got to see that from
536. 20:59the very beginning how do they set it up
537. 21:02from the beginning
538. 21:03whether or not is there a way out that
539. 21:05they leave themselves in any kind of a
540. 21:06way out and kidnappings were the same
541. 21:08thing in a 2004 time for him was they
542. 21:12al-qaida was chopping people's heads off
543. 21:14mm-hmm and they weren't I work one case
544. 21:17where they said all the US forces out of
545. 21:20Iraq in 72 hours okay so even if the US
546. 21:26government wanted to do that they
547. 21:27couldn't do it in 72 hours so the bad
548. 21:29guys are setting up a murder of a
549. 21:32hostage from the very beginning so now
550. 21:35you got to change the game and call him
551. 21:38out and we started calling them out in
552. 21:392004 in the only venue that mattered to
553. 21:43them which was the Middle Eastern media
554. 21:44they don't care what the US media says
555. 21:46they care what the Middle Eastern media
556. 21:48says and we're working one case in in
557. 21:51saudi paul johnson who they executed on
558. 21:55deadline but we had we coach his wife
559. 22:00through a statement in the middle
560. 22:03eastern media and she's nothing but
561. 22:06respectful and they're astonished that
562. 22:10an american can be respectful which then
563. 22:13changes everything
564. 22:15and al-qaeda ends up getting criticized
565. 22:17in the in the middle eastern media which
566. 22:19for them is bad for business because
567. 22:21it's about recruitment so see her two
568. 22:24cells been killing him because she was
569. 22:25so respectful right they then they
570. 22:27actually instead calling them terrorists
571. 22:28they referred to them as criminals which
572. 22:30hurts recruiting yeah so yeah what the
573. 22:34point the point is you got to understand
574. 22:36what negotiation you're actually in and
575. 22:41when yeah i mean i suppose you have to
576. 22:45have a you know there has to be this
577. 22:49wall but i mean you can't make an
578. 22:51attachment to paul johnson I mean
579. 22:53obviously probably met his wife and
580. 22:54coached her through the statement but I
581. 22:56mean what you have to think there is a
582. 22:59chance a high likelihood here that they
583. 23:00kill this guy right and so I'm now you
584. 23:03know spend time with his wife and his
585. 23:05family and and I'm making this connect
586. 23:07it would be I think I'm just asking I
587. 23:09guess you can't make that emotional leap
588. 23:13I would I would we shouldn't you should
589. 23:15he can't help but feel
590. 23:16some compassion for people I mean I
591. 23:18worked a couple cases where people got
592. 23:20killed Paul Johnson was one of them I
593. 23:21worked another case of working in
594. 23:23Philippines the Burnham's a barrel case
595. 23:25three Americans were grabbed and two out
596. 23:28of three ended up dying along the way
597. 23:29first journalist Ribeiro was executed
598. 23:32they cut off his head fairly early into
599. 23:35that case before we got could get her
600. 23:37arms wrapped around it but at the end
601. 23:38Martin Burnham was shot in a botched
602. 23:40rescue attempt by friendly fire Martin
603. 23:43Byrne was killed and his wife Gracie was
604. 23:45wounded now that was you know at times
605. 23:49you could say all right that was hard
606. 23:50but then the flip side was - it wasn't
607. 23:53my father got murdered I mean you can't
608. 23:55get too wrapped up emotionally because
609. 23:57then it's my loss is nothing is nothing
610. 24:00compared to the family's actual loss and
611. 24:02you got to remind yourself of that
612. 24:03sometimes you know and you're not gonna
613. 24:05help them by getting all emotional over
614. 24:06it right yeah no I think you guys in
615. 24:09that I mean I always think about the the
616. 24:11neuroses or the pediatric neurosurgeon
617. 24:13right
618. 24:15I mean exactly you talk about you know
619. 24:16the family is yeah 50 feet away in the
620. 24:19waiting room and you're you know opening
621. 24:22up the head of the five-year-old yeah
622. 24:25you're not gonna help anybody if you get
623. 24:27upset exactly right yeah so I would
624. 24:29imagine for you guys it just has to be
625. 24:31so surgical like that that it's just you
626. 24:35got a job to do and we need we'll get it
627. 24:37off that line and you realize how you
628. 24:39can best serve them and you best serve
629. 24:41them by not getting too emotional yeah
630. 24:43yeah and most of these negotiations are
631. 24:49not well yeah most of these that we're
632. 24:53talking about are not they're either
633. 24:55over the phone or over these are not
634. 24:57obviously face-to-face negotiation or
635. 24:59not face to foot what you're intimate as
636. 25:01you talk as you you know translated this
637. 25:04to the business world a lot of this is
638. 25:06I'm assuming a lot of these negotiations
639. 25:08that you coach and teach and see or face
640. 25:10to face yeah you get you get dull
641. 25:12everybody communicates on all three
642. 25:14levels right but you want people to be
643. 25:16face to face because so much is lost in
644. 25:18translation in text an email and so much
645. 25:20is done wrong and texts an email and how
646. 25:22important this gets to my question how
647. 25:25important is posture body movement
648. 25:28you know little ticks little well you
649. 25:32know there's there's a certain body
650. 25:33movement that everybody likes
651. 25:36which is really encouraging there's a
652. 25:38fair amount that's easy to misinterpret
653. 25:39I mean if your attitude is just to be
654. 25:42genuine you know if your attitude is
655. 25:44like look let's make the best deal
656. 25:46possible if you know your your inner
657. 25:49attitude is gonna be betray your posture
658. 25:51your your outer movements your inner
659. 25:53voice is gonna betray your outer voice
660. 25:55and you can see these things like if I
661. 25:56all of a sudden yeah
662. 25:58lean back cross my arms does that say
663. 26:00something does that or is it well it's a
664. 26:03it's a clue that I could easily
665. 26:05misinterpret okay so my best move is to
666. 26:09say seems like something just crossed
667. 26:12your mind and if I don't if I don't find
668. 26:16out what that clue is one of the things
669. 26:18I was talking about yesterday I once
670. 26:20misinterpreted somebody's flinch as if
671. 26:22they had more money and their flinch I
672. 26:25found out later on was actually that I
673. 26:28capped them out completely you know
674. 26:30there was there was a there was a
675. 26:31physical body language expression of
676. 26:33discomfort we're gonna tend to interpret
677. 26:38that and negatively because we're wired
678. 26:40to be negative when in fact I
679. 26:43misinterpreted and I didn't say anything
680. 26:45to him at the time you know I saw him I
681. 26:48talked about the price with him my son
682. 26:49look away and I saw him look back and my
683. 26:52gut instinct was which was wrong was
684. 26:55that he's got more right and he does and
685. 26:57I should have just said look man
686. 26:59something seems like something's
687. 27:01bothering you yeah but I didn't and then
688. 27:04we ended up that was the last piece of
689. 27:06business I ever did with him right cuz I
690. 27:07tapped him out and he was gone the other
691. 27:12thing we're wired to do as I've learned
692. 27:13by following your stuff is we talk too
693. 27:16much two-thirds of us I think that's
694. 27:19number you the percentage two-thirds of
695. 27:21us talk too much right we don't listen
696. 27:23right we just have it's literally like
697. 27:25diarrhea of the mouth right right
698. 27:28the reason I had those air pods in and
699. 27:30was hoping to they usually stay in
700. 27:32because you're right
701. 27:33I'd say the numbers higher than
702. 27:35two-thirds yeah yeah well that's and we
703. 27:38when we talk
704. 27:40I mean I it seems like you're trying
705. 27:42that this is the case that as we talk
706. 27:44more and more and more and just let it
707. 27:46go on and on and on we're start we're
708. 27:47losing yeah if you're talking you lose
709. 27:50and that's actually one of our
710. 27:51guidelines he or she who talks most
711. 27:53loses you know I got to find out what's
712. 27:57going on with you
713. 27:57I got to find out you know there's gonna
714. 28:00be stuff that you could tell me if you
715. 28:02feel like it and you're not gonna feel
716. 28:05like it if I'm yammering away you're
717. 28:08gonna feel not hurt you're gonna feel
718. 28:10like I don't care what you're thinking
719. 28:11you're gonna feel pushed around there's
720. 28:14just there's just so much more to be had
721. 28:17I mean I I haven't had the privilege of
722. 28:20sitting down warren buffett i don't
723. 28:21imagine he says a lot right he wants to
724. 28:24listen he wants to gather information
725. 28:26and he and then he's gonna he's gonna
726. 28:28react in different ways that shows you
727. 28:31that he's paying attention or he's not
728. 28:34gonna he's gonna be if he's gonna
729. 28:35disagree is gonna be really careful
730. 28:37about how he disagrees because he's
731. 28:38gonna care how it lands um we talked on
732. 28:42the plane about bob iger and steve jobs
733. 28:45bob iger what I heard Bob Iger does not
734. 28:47talk a lot uh I imagine he does mean
735. 28:50he's it's it's ninja-like and I and I in
736. 28:52the the times I spent with Steve Jobs he
737. 28:55doesn't talk a lot but when he talks you
738. 28:59may not like what he says but you're
739. 29:00listening yeah exactly and and when he
740. 29:03talks what he says tells you he's been
741. 29:06paying attention hmm you know he's gonna
742. 29:09he's gonna say something that's gonna be
743. 29:11really I would imagine is gonna be
744. 29:13really really germane to the
745. 29:14conversation and by you know I was
746. 29:16telling I'm blown away by Bob iger's
747. 29:18book I mean if he's a classic example of
748. 29:21a guy who really understands empathy
749. 29:22doesn't shock me that he doesn't talk a
750. 29:24lot successfully navigated a mass how
751. 29:28many times did they tell him that either
752. 29:29you're gonna get fired or you're not
753. 29:31gonna get promoted or you're not gonna
754. 29:32last here and he just did his job and
755. 29:35paid attention and used a lot of empathy
756. 29:37and just continue to move forward mmm
757. 29:39empathy being understanding exactly
758. 29:42where somebody's coming from right yeah
759. 29:44it's just so Bob because it is in our
760. 29:47lexicon we have completely
761. 29:50the butchered that word yes that is not
762. 29:53what people think right exactly it's
763. 29:56amazing and a great example also the
764. 29:59last politician to use the word amply
765. 30:00would have been a Hillary Clinton should
766. 30:02use empathy she got barbecued for it but
767. 30:05I guarantee you if all of our people
768. 30:07that still want her to run for president
769. 30:09they'd say alright so what's your
770. 30:11express some empathy towards Donald
771. 30:13Trump well I can't do that that's
772. 30:15horrible because they would think that
773. 30:17that means agreement or simply our
774. 30:19sympathy but pure empathy would be able
775. 30:21to say something that Donald Trump would
776. 30:23look at you and say yeah that's right
777. 30:26you got that right yeah you know exactly
778. 30:28where I was coming from right speaking
779. 30:29of Donald Trump we also share a mutual
780. 30:31friend not in Donald Trump thankfully
781. 30:33but Ryan holiday
782. 30:36yeah who's been on this podcast and I
783. 30:38know you guys have worked together he's
784. 30:39a huge fan of this book and herself I
785. 30:41asked Ryan I said if you had asked him
786. 30:44one question what would you ask him
787. 30:46[Music]
788. 30:50because it's it's Ryan is one of if you
789. 30:53guys haven't listened to the Ryan
790. 30:55holiday podcast it's it's incredible he
791. 30:57said he's a young guy lives here in
792. 30:58Austin and as I told you we're getting
793. 31:00off the plane people ask me what's
794. 31:02what's he like what what is he what is
795. 31:04who's Ryan holiday I said do you know
796. 31:06who Malcolm Gladwell is everybody says
797. 31:07yeah
798. 31:08I said he's the next back to Malcolm
799. 31:10Gladwell so I said you know about to do
800. 31:12the podcast with Chris I said if you had
801. 31:14asked him one question he said here it
802. 31:17is Trump Donald Trump President Trump is
803. 31:19supposed to be this brilliant negotiator
804. 31:21if Chris was sitting across the table
805. 31:23from him trying to get a deal done what
806. 31:25would his strategy be and what about
807. 31:27Putin what about Kim jong-un
808. 31:29how does he sigh sighs those guys up
809. 31:32yeah cuz it's without a doubt Trump
810. 31:35Putin probably pretty tough negotiators
811. 31:39well Donald Trump makes a lot of noise I
812. 31:42think Donald Trump is a brilliant
813. 31:43marketer he's sort of the he's a classic
814. 31:48example of a really aggressive
815. 31:50negotiator and what happens with the
816. 31:52really aggressive negotiator wants to
817. 31:54win they leave people behind them that
818. 31:55feel beaten so fewer and fewer people
819. 31:59want to continue to do business with
820. 32:00them and unfortunately that's what you
821. 32:03that
822. 32:04that's what you see Donald Trump's
823. 32:05businesses are far-flung all over the
824. 32:07world he's never in any one he usually a
825. 32:09few spectacular successes in a given
826. 32:11City and then people just get tired of
827. 32:14getting beaten down and they just stop
828. 32:17cooperating you know they don't
829. 32:18counter-attack they've learned the
830. 32:20counter-attack is a bad idea because it
831. 32:22just gets worse but they just stop
832. 32:24cooperating with him and he brings he
833. 32:28comes to town with a lot of fanfare a
834. 32:30lot of marketing you know a couple of a
835. 32:33couple of spectacular successes in New
836. 32:36York City and the next thing he's in
837. 32:37Atlantic City and in couple spectacular
838. 32:39successes in Atlantic City and next
839. 32:41thing he's someplace else and next he's
840. 32:43someplace else and so you're realizing
841. 32:46what he's you're burnin bridges now I'm
842. 32:48I'm I'm a natural born a sort of
843. 32:50negotiator myself and then I started you
844. 32:53start beating people and you start
845. 32:54burning bridges and pretty soon people
846. 32:55just don't want to deal with you anymore
847. 32:57they don't openly contradict you to your
848. 32:59face they're really quiet but it's hard
849. 33:01to get people on a phone or if they get
850. 33:02on the phone they you know I'm kind of
851. 33:04busy you get a lot of passive aggression
852. 33:06as a reaction and so but he's a control
853. 33:09oriented guy who deals with him most
854. 33:12successfully his son-in-law Jared now
855. 33:15Jared is very analytical dude Jared is
856. 33:18understood that you know you don't you
857. 33:20don't go knuckles the knuckles with in a
858. 33:22sort of negotiator you get really quiet
859. 33:24Donald Trump's book which I read a long
860. 33:26time ago the art of the deal to his
861. 33:28credit he talks about somebody who
862. 33:30handled him really well and he talks
863. 33:33about a guy that just killed him with
864. 33:34details just you know Trump wanted
865. 33:37oversee everything so the guy said okay
866. 33:39fine what what color toothpicks do you
867. 33:41want you know how many toothpicks do you
868. 33:44want just destroyed him on the details
869. 33:46and Trump says like you know what I
870. 33:49don't need to oversee everything I got
871. 33:51people for that yeah but he the guy
872. 33:54understood if you overwhelm him with
873. 33:57details then pretty soon he's gonna get
874. 33:59sick of the details and he's gonna say
875. 34:01look just go figure this out and stop
876. 34:02bothering me so it's deference deference
877. 34:06is ridiculously effective with a guy
878. 34:08like Donald Trump Putin and different
879. 34:10Putin is a different kind of guy he's an
880. 34:13analytical dude now he strikes me he's
881. 34:16ridiculously sure
882. 34:17so he's gonna see a lot of stuff coming
883. 34:21I I see shooting as a very well probably
884. 34:24one of the shrews negotiators on the
885. 34:26planet I think most people would agree
886. 34:28and then you Joe maybe why Trump is so I
887. 34:32mean almost defers to him II yeah I
888. 34:36think I think that has a lot to do with
889. 34:37and cuteness doesn't say a word to him
890. 34:39you know I'm sure that there was a
891. 34:42couple sort of in their interactions you
892. 34:46know Donald Trump a test him out a
893. 34:47couple times to see if he give him to
894. 34:49rise in any way and Putin probably just
895. 34:51stared at him mm-hmm and then say what
896. 34:53and so again that's that's the kind the
897. 34:57really analytical guy who's really
898. 35:01careful about what they say and doesn't
899. 35:04get made it into any quick response
900. 35:06again like his son-in-law Jared you know
901. 35:10those people are really effective with
902. 35:11him mm-hmm yeah Putin is managed almost
903. 35:15like not to compare him to Uyghur but
904. 35:17he's what is that you know he's just
905. 35:19he's still the president like hat I mean
906. 35:22he's well yeah and I don't think he's
907. 35:25people are unhappy with him I mean I
908. 35:27thought guru that he genuinely gets
909. 35:29reelected because he watches out for
910. 35:31Russia first and foremost yeah like if
911. 35:34you notice any any politician that runs
912. 35:36into favor over their politician billon
913. 35:38billionaires are somewhat synonymous any
914. 35:41politician that's ever started really
915. 35:43run Russian billionaire that's run into
916. 35:46trouble in Russia is when they started
917. 35:48to take money out of the country now
918. 35:50every country's economy the leaders of
919. 35:52every country do everything they can to
920. 35:54keep the money in the country you know
921. 35:57there's a balance of payments there's a
922. 35:58trade deficit every American president
923. 36:00is worried about a trade deficit because
924. 36:02that's when money's flowing out of the
925. 36:03country so it's no other interest in any
926. 36:06other great political leader has in
927. 36:08order to keep your economy healthy you
928. 36:09got to keep money in the country and
929. 36:11when when a billionaire or politician
930. 36:12runs into problems in Russia if you take
931. 36:15a look every single time while they're
932. 36:17starting to take billions of dollars out
933. 36:19of the country and Putin is fine you can
934. 36:22do what you want where you're here but
935. 36:23don't take money out of the country hmm
936. 36:26interesting
937. 36:28talk to me about in a negotiation you
938. 36:31speak a lot about this as you did
939. 36:33yesterday at the seminar the difference
940. 36:35between telling somebody that's right or
941. 36:39you're right
942. 36:41yeah because most people just say well
943. 36:43what's the difference yeah it's it's
944. 36:46such a subtle change it's just a
945. 36:47game-changer
946. 36:48you know when people say that's right T
947. 36:50it's because what you just said was the
948. 36:52truth and sorry just as to cut is this
949. 36:55are we talking about this Olympic system
950. 36:56again and the neurosciences yeah is it
951. 36:58okay yeah and it's you know tall roz
952. 37:01coat the co-author of the book mm-hmm
953. 37:03never split the difference tall as a
954. 37:04genius writer we were talking about it
955. 37:07one day and he says I think you're
956. 37:08triggering an epiphany
957. 37:10it's an epiphany moment you've triggered
958. 37:12in somebody else so if you look up at
959. 37:15the brain science what happens in an
960. 37:17epiphany moment a moment of clarity
961. 37:18although all the chemicals we like
962. 37:20dopamine serotonin and oxytocin those
963. 37:24get released in that moment so if I
964. 37:26trigger an epiphany moment in you where
965. 37:29you said wow that's right because you
966. 37:32told me that I was right what something
967. 37:34that you were talking about was right
968. 37:36for example again presidential politics
969. 37:40as an example
970. 37:40Hillary Trump debates whichever one you
971. 37:43liked in the debate when they said
972. 37:46something that you were completely in on
973. 37:48you're all in on you love what they said
974. 37:50you point at the TV and you go that's
975. 37:53right because you believe it to be the
976. 37:56truth and what you don't know is when
977. 37:58those words come out of your mouth you
978. 37:59feel a certain amount of bonding to the
979. 38:01person that were the source of the words
980. 38:03the epiphany moment a little bit of the
981. 38:06oxytocin gets released the bonding
982. 38:08chemical you feel bonded to the concept
983. 38:10you don't know you feel bonded to that
984. 38:11person mm-hmm when you say you're right
985. 38:14to somebody you're trying to get them to
986. 38:17stop talking you know it's a classic a
987. 38:19classic way everybody that has a
988. 38:22significant other who's giving them a
989. 38:24hard time about something you want to
990. 38:26get you signor dinner you never said
991. 38:29your right to a significant
992. 38:31but you had it said to you a few times
993. 38:33because it makes us happy and we shut up
994. 38:35that ends it I mean that's sort of a
995. 38:37period yeah yeah yeah whether it is with
996. 38:40a significant other or a teammate or
997. 38:43your coworker you're right I'm are they
998. 38:46gonna keep they can't keep going right
999. 38:48they sits done right and if you look at
1000. 38:50people's body language is nearly every
1001. 38:52single time when you see somebody say
1002. 38:53you're right their body languages
1003. 38:55they're leaning away from the person you
1004. 38:58know they're looking a little bit
1005. 38:59defensive they're uncomfortable and they
1006. 39:02almost you can almost see somebody hold
1007. 39:04out the hand when they say you're right
1008. 39:06which it really means just please stop I
1009. 39:09can't take it anymore
1010. 39:10but on the other end of it it feels so
1011. 39:12good to be told that you're right that's
1012. 39:15why we shut up you know we felt
1013. 39:17fantastic when somebody looked at us and
1014. 39:18said well Rosie yeah excellent you
1015. 39:20appreciate my genius and that's why we
1016. 39:23shut up you know you were part of the
1017. 39:28the and that you know these these story
1018. 39:31did this for so long I mean will you
1019. 39:32remember these things but you were part
1020. 39:34of the negotiation on on TWA flight 800
1021. 39:38because what was the investigation and
1022. 39:40that that wasn't a negotiation I was
1023. 39:41gonna say honey I'm when I read that I'm
1024. 39:43like what are we negotiating here I mean
1025. 39:45yeah yeah that was I was working
1026. 39:47terrorism in New York at the time and we
1027. 39:49had to rule the explosion of an airplane
1028. 39:52we had to rule it out as a terrorist
1029. 39:55event because if a plane blows up for it
1030. 39:58to be mechanical failure is unlikely
1031. 40:01right but you know but as they say when
1032. 40:04you've eliminated all other
1033. 40:05possibilities and you're only left what
1034. 40:09one outcome however unlikely it is if
1035. 40:11you've eliminated everything else that's
1036. 40:12the outcome and we eliminated everything
1037. 40:14else on that explosion you know in
1038. 40:18Guantanamo all of these I would say I
1039. 40:21would I'm happy to say that I've never
1040. 40:23been involved in anything at Guantanamo
1041. 40:26because that would have been harsh
1042. 40:27interrogation techniques and that's just
1043. 40:30stupid
1044. 40:31right now I've worked a lot of terrorism
1045. 40:32and put terrorists in jail right but not
1046. 40:36another go on to their more related
1047. 40:37stuff yeah but I just one of your talks
1048. 40:40you were talking about I think there was
1049. 40:41a
1050. 40:42their class down there people from all
1051. 40:44over all over the world I think were or
1052. 40:46there was something down there where
1053. 40:49y'all were sharing negotiating tactics
1054. 40:53ideas
1055. 40:54well they the people that have been
1056. 40:56involved in Guantanamo interrogations
1057. 40:59and because that's where I wasn't
1058. 41:00referencing them we're talking like
1059. 41:01waterboarding and dogs and oh yeah yeah
1060. 41:04that's that's just stupid yeah you know
1061. 41:06I who cares let's set aside the
1062. 41:08humanitarian ass issues on that because
1063. 41:11you don't get to the answer well it
1064. 41:13doesn't work it just doesn't work you
1065. 41:16know I don't care about harsh
1066. 41:18interrogation techniques on humanitarian
1067. 41:21/ reasons first give me something that
1068. 41:26works
1069. 41:26it says I'm what I remember watching the
1070. 41:28movie Oh dark thirty and watched how
1071. 41:30they were interrogating people to try to
1072. 41:32get out after bin Laden and I remember
1073. 41:35thinking no wonder it took him so long
1074. 41:36cuz this is just stupid hmm so harsh
1075. 41:39interrogation techniques I'm against
1076. 41:41them because they don't work interesting
1077. 41:45somebody should tell somebody else that
1078. 41:47they finally figured it out yeah they
1079. 41:50finally actually then now there's dad
1080. 41:52out there that shows it that it just
1081. 41:54does it doesn't work in that the rapport
1082. 41:56base is soft warm and fuzzy you know
1083. 41:58would report based interrogation the
1084. 42:01study said it was the closest thing the
1085. 42:03truth some that law enforcement has it
1086. 42:07gets people to talk and if you're a true
1087. 42:10mercenary then you use it because it
1088. 42:14works yep
1089. 42:19what is the project 120 well when I turn
1090. 42:2660 then I thought all right so I've
1091. 42:29turned 30 for the second time I want to
1092. 42:32turn 30 at least four times okay which
1093. 42:35gets you to 120 okay so it's about in
1094. 42:39today's day and age when we're learning
1095. 42:41so much more about not just how the
1096. 42:43brain works but how the body works and
1097. 42:45longevity and just crazy stupid stuff
1098. 42:48that's been in front of us all along
1099. 42:49that we didn't know was good for us you
1100. 42:51know like the difference between a
1101. 42:53low-calorie diet over
1102. 42:55actually fastening you know an
1103. 42:57intermittent fasting and at otha G where
1104. 43:01you can buy fasting you know you can get
1105. 43:04rid of the bad cells in your body we
1106. 43:06were you know but you're practicing all
1107. 43:09this I'm I'm experimenting a lot of
1108. 43:11stuff because I'm planning on living
1109. 43:12well past 120 okay well what are we
1110. 43:15experimenting well [ __ ] it I want to
1111. 43:17live to 122 so you got to tell me what
1112. 43:18tell all of us cuz everybody's listening
1113. 43:20going well I want to live me you know to
1114. 43:24me look I'll just say this I mean I
1115. 43:25think it would be great to live to 120 I
1116. 43:27don't want to feel healthy yeah I don't
1117. 43:29want the last 20 to be like crawling
1118. 43:30around I mean right you you want to go
1119. 43:32as fast as you can as hard as you can
1120. 43:33for as long as you can and then BAM
1121. 43:35and yeah done drop out of the sky yeah
1122. 43:37so how are we hacking because if that's
1123. 43:40what you're talking about right and give
1124. 43:42us some yeah then we're not talking
1125. 43:43about negotiating anymore now we're
1126. 43:45talking about living to 120 all right so
1127. 43:47um dry sauna is something I came across
1128. 43:49recently and you can kick your growth
1129. 43:53hormone and try saunas equivalent of
1130. 43:58getting an aerobic workout in while
1131. 44:01you're sitting because it raises it
1132. 44:03raises your heart rate your entire
1133. 44:06system reacts and I got a bad knee so I
1134. 44:08can't run anymore dry sauna or infrared
1135. 44:11sauna well there's two kinds infrared is
1136. 44:14also dry but those those infrared is not
1137. 44:17as hot from what I've seen they're
1138. 44:19thinking the theme for red Sun is better
1139. 44:21than a straight you know hotter just
1140. 44:23straight regular Heat
1141. 44:26so I don't know all I know is that data
1142. 44:28isn't really distinguished between the
1143. 44:31two and I just so I just bought I just
1144. 44:33bought my mother and infrared sauna I
1145. 44:35had it put in her house have you
1146. 44:37followed you know Dan Buettner is know
1147. 44:41what most people say no Dan is I had
1148. 44:46heard about him and I had had some
1149. 44:48friends that had tried to connect us and
1150. 44:50and have him sit in that seat and I'm at
1151. 44:54my buddies this is just so why because
1152. 44:56it's all happened in the span of like
1153. 44:58six weeks I was at my buddy's birthday
1154. 44:59party out in West Texas two weeks ago
1155. 45:02and and and I see on there was a whole
1156. 45:04gender everything
1157. 45:05people out there in the middle of
1158. 45:06nowhere it said you know wisdom by Dan
1159. 45:09Buettner no all right
1160. 45:10an hour-long talk I said [ __ ] I'm gonna
1161. 45:12I got to see this so Dan you're gonna
1162. 45:14know who he is when I tell you this so
1163. 45:15he studies what he calls the Blue Zones
1164. 45:18right all right and to him the blue
1165. 45:20zones are the places in the world that
1166. 45:22have the highest percentage of
1167. 45:24centenarians all right so he's he's you
1168. 45:29know he's a researcher a journalist a
1169. 45:30writer and thinker very smart dude
1170. 45:33but he's but he cut he says it all in
1171. 45:35one of the most charismatic and fun to
1172. 45:38hear ways and so he set out to find
1173. 45:41these pockets of hundred year olds
1174. 45:43around the world right so so you've got
1175. 45:46Okinawa you've got a small island and in
1176. 45:49Greece you've got a little Peninsula and
1177. 45:51Costa Rica
1178. 45:52you've got Loma Linda California you've
1179. 45:54got Sardinia and maybe one other that
1180. 45:57I'm forgetting and so now that he's
1181. 45:59found there's like why what what what in
1182. 46:01what are the similarities I mean what is
1183. 46:03the similarity between a small island
1184. 46:04Greece and Loma Linda California what is
1185. 46:07it right and it turns out that there's a
1186. 46:10bunch of similarities really right these
1187. 46:12people are very active these people the
1188. 46:15most important thing that according to
1189. 46:17Dan the thing that will most predict
1190. 46:19your longevity is how lonely are you
1191. 46:21none of them are interesting and as they
1192. 46:24get older as you know as is most
1193. 46:26Americans as their parents or
1194. 46:27grandparents get older they get a we put
1195. 46:29them at home we visit them once every 10
1196. 46:32days right they're [ __ ] lonely right
1197. 46:35right right in these places when you're
1198. 46:37a hundred you are the talk of the town
1199. 46:40you are the [ __ ] King everybody looks
1200. 46:43up you don't you you don't live in a
1201. 46:44home no they live in your home aging is
1202. 46:47gratifying and they were there revered
1203. 46:50yeah and largely plant-based not not
1204. 46:54strictly not not right not you know they
1205. 46:57will eat fish they will eat chicken
1206. 46:58they'll eat meat pork they'll drink
1207. 47:00alcohol but just just by virtue of where
1208. 47:04they live and what they've eaten forever
1209. 47:05they're it's largely plant base very act
1210. 47:10they move all the time all of their
1211. 47:12actions if they were gonna go make if
1212. 47:14they were gonna have bread they would
1213. 47:15beat they would make the bread
1214. 47:17so yeah they're always moving yeah it
1215. 47:20was you so dancer he it was a
1216. 47:22best-seller the book on the Blue Zones
1217. 47:23he wrote a big cover story I'll send it
1218. 47:26to you for National Geographic was one
1219. 47:28of the best-selling issues but it's it's
1220. 47:31these at Loma Linda California
1221. 47:33yeah even know is that with Costa Rica
1222. 47:35right so the Costa Rica but Loma Linda
1223. 47:38is a high population of seventh-day
1224. 47:41adventists okay that's a religion I
1225. 47:45don't even know what that religions
1226. 47:46about but that religion is about
1227. 47:48community that religion is about the
1228. 47:51revering that your elders that religion
1229. 47:53is about they constantly get together
1230. 47:55every week they have a get together yeah
1231. 47:58so so there's this nobody's lonely I
1232. 48:01started like round on then one of the
1233. 48:03other things he says is if on the worst
1234. 48:08day of your life do you have three
1235. 48:12people that you can call that you know
1236. 48:16will get you out of it three people not
1237. 48:18one person not two but three right three
1238. 48:21people that you absolutely know they
1239. 48:23will stop whatever they're doing they
1240. 48:25will hear you out and they will get you
1241. 48:26out of it
1242. 48:27Wow how many people can raise their hand
1243. 48:29to that no no I'm trying to think I get
1244. 48:31right now the one person I've call under
1245. 48:34any circle you know no we got to get a
1246. 48:37third if we're gonna get to 120 yeah
1247. 48:42it's an interesting point you you would
1248. 48:44love you you should check out Dan he
1249. 48:47sees yeah I was I mean we did so much
1250. 48:49fun stuff that weekend it was the
1251. 48:52highlight of my weekend this guy and you
1252. 48:55know was right before the UT game
1253. 48:57started so everybody wanted to watch the
1254. 48:58people like I don't care about the game
1255. 48:59yeah he's homeless and scary yeah and
1256. 49:02what he's doing now and Anna and IRA and
1257. 49:05III think that's what he's doing he sort
1258. 49:08of turned it into a business where can
1259. 49:10we turn can we create blue zones Fort
1260. 49:13Worth Texas is trying to be a Blue Zone
1261. 49:14Orlando Florida trying to be a Blue Zone
1262. 49:16yeah there's a move here in Austin with
1263. 49:18John Mackey and Whole Foods and
1264. 49:19McConaughey Tron Ken Austin Texas be a
1265. 49:21blue stone yeah can we start em chris
1266. 49:23communty it's kind of cool
1267. 49:25yeah
1268. 49:25absolutely see and what I'm hearing in
1269. 49:28that too this gets me back to the
1270. 49:30neuroscience and what chemicals are
1271. 49:31being released because the biology
1272. 49:38belief I'm getting a mental block on a
1273. 49:41guy's name right now but he talked about
1274. 49:44when essentially when your existence is
1275. 49:47satisfying your if you're happier the
1276. 49:51chemicals that are released into your
1277. 49:52body make you healthier right and so if
1278. 49:56if you're in a community where in an
1279. 49:58aging instead of being a handicap is
1280. 50:00actually a gratifying process then
1281. 50:04you're gonna feel better by yourself
1282. 50:05every day and you're gonna sustain
1283. 50:06yourself better and then if people
1284. 50:08celebrate you if people if you have
1285. 50:10people that you can rely on the number
1286. 50:12of things that that socialization could
1287. 50:14do for you chemically it would make all
1288. 50:18the sense in the world well then you're
1289. 50:19gonna like Phase two of what he's doing
1290. 50:21now yeah so he so the original blue zone
1291. 50:24was where are the pockets of people that
1292. 50:26live the longest
1293. 50:27so he's I'm so glad you said this he's
1294. 50:30now gonna have sort of a second part two
1295. 50:33on the blue zones where in the world are
1296. 50:35people the happiest oh yeah and what is
1297. 50:38it what is the consistence guarantee a
1298. 50:40correlation there right yeah so they may
1299. 50:43not be the same they may be some of the
1300. 50:44same but I don't know but he's now gonna
1301. 50:46go find the happiest people and why what
1302. 50:50is it what are the themes here that that
1303. 50:52has made him happy yeah that's cool
1304. 50:54stuff
1305. 50:55it's so cool I'm gonna start reading his
1306. 50:56stuff no you [ __ ] in you tube he's got
1307. 50:58some great TED talks and you'll see it's
1308. 51:00just a very it's easy to watch and
1309. 51:03listen to like the dude is is just
1310. 51:04there's a cyclist he has that what does
1311. 51:06he say when so funny like [ __ ] guy
1312. 51:11has the world record from like Anchorage
1313. 51:14to Argentine or something like some
1314. 51:17ridiculous distance wow like who does
1315. 51:20that
1316. 51:22like who does that his cyclists guys it
1317. 51:26crazy out of their minds with him yeah I
1318. 51:32also read just to go back to what you're
1319. 51:34doing and this is so this was a little
1320. 51:37more technical for me but so the FBI at
1321. 51:39some point and you'll know when created
1322. 51:42this whole method called BCS and
1323. 51:46behavioral change stairway model right
1324. 51:50again neuroscience data science yeah
1325. 51:53before we had it it was it was really
1326. 51:54who was principal the guy behind it
1327. 51:56principally was my former boss Gary
1328. 51:58Nestor but you know nobody comes up a
1329. 52:00part of the team nobody really comes up
1330. 52:02with an idea by themselves he was
1331. 52:04surrounded by a lot of other talented
1332. 52:06hostage negotiators a triggering each
1333. 52:07other's thoughts at the time fred lastly
1334. 52:11was there doing fusil a I mean these
1335. 52:13guys are collaborating and basically
1336. 52:15before we had neuroscience but they
1337. 52:17understood behavior and what are the
1338. 52:20steps along the way to imp to real you
1339. 52:24know they called the behavioral change
1340. 52:25behavioral changes a bad guy comes out
1341. 52:27of the bank behavioral changes as they
1342. 52:30let the hostage go behavioral changes
1343. 52:32the person on the other side of the
1344. 52:33table signs that deal with you that
1345. 52:35originally you know they didn't want to
1346. 52:37do but they signed it and they like it
1347. 52:39they're happy with it they're good with
1348. 52:41it so what are the steps along a line
1349. 52:43and the steps along the way really just
1350. 52:45start out that underlying foundation is
1351. 52:47what we called empathy you know just
1352. 52:50really demonstrating understanding
1353. 52:53versus understanding like Stephen Covey
1354. 52:56said seek first to understand then be
1355. 52:58understood that the two-millimeter shift
1356. 53:00is demonstrate your understanding so you
1357. 53:04can be understood and a lot of people
1358. 53:07say they think they say all right so I
1359. 53:08understand I've demonstrated
1360. 53:10understanding right not true that's a
1361. 53:12throw away yeah I understand it's also a
1362. 53:14shortcut for a look stop talk and I want
1363. 53:16to make a point so if you do understand
1364. 53:19tell the other side will you understand
1365. 53:20you know lay it out it's it's it seems
1366. 53:24ridiculously simple but if I say to you
1367. 53:27alright so here's where you're faced
1368. 53:28with
1369. 53:29you have these challenges you have
1370. 53:32uncertainly along these lines and you're
1371. 53:34worried about these issues and I lay
1372. 53:36each one of them out then your reaction
1373. 53:40is like only [ __ ] you do understand you
1374. 53:44do understand why I'm coming from you do
1375. 53:46understand this is a problem for me if
1376. 53:48you understand the problem from my
1377. 53:51perspective the chance that we could
1378. 53:53work together and fix it is really high
1379. 53:55and now and you pretty much go instantly
1380. 53:58into collaboration amount at that point
1381. 53:59yeah for all you potential bank robbers
1382. 54:02out there and future bank robbers and
1383. 54:04hostage takers has there ever been a
1384. 54:08successful hostage so you're the robber
1385. 54:12has anybody ever gotten away with that
1386. 54:14you've robbed the bank you've taken some
1387. 54:16hostages the bank is surrounded you're
1388. 54:18on the phone with you or des no no no or
1389. 54:22my boy one of your Denzel Washington has
1390. 54:25anybody ever gotten away with it not in
1391. 54:28the US no okay so that's that's a good
1392. 54:31metric for all your potential bank
1393. 54:33robbers that your your when you you have
1394. 54:36you are you've never won a game you're
1395. 54:38batting zero you're you're you're going
1396. 54:41to go to jail to the cross bar hotel we
1397. 54:46will offer you three meals a day and
1398. 54:49free free room and board for an extended
1399. 54:52period of time never got away with it
1400. 54:54I know maybe a hundred years ago yeah
1401. 54:56yeah maybe a hundred years ago but in
1402. 54:58recent yeah no you're gonna you're gonna
1403. 55:01come out yeah you're gonna come out
1404. 55:03you're gonna be better off coming out
1405. 55:06yeah yeah I guess that's right huh yeah
1406. 55:10huh man fascinating stuff bestseller
1407. 55:16here never split the difference by the
1408. 55:17way ink magazine said this is was one of
1409. 55:21the top seven I don't know why they
1410. 55:22guess my best seven best books on
1411. 55:24negotiation of all time yeah that's why
1412. 55:27it's a best-seller yeah and man am I
1413. 55:29glad that I was in 5a
1414. 55:31and you were in 5b and I took my air
1415. 55:33pots off and you know this
1416. 55:34man I was like damn you know you started
1417. 55:37to tell me about the book and I was Ju
1418. 55:38were still talking and but I started
1419. 55:40looking at my phone on the Amazon just
1420. 55:42the overview and I said holy [ __ ] this
1421. 55:45guy's a monster good eye looks yeah yeah
1422. 55:49go check it out folks and you know the
1423. 55:52great thing is that you know we're
1424. 55:53talking about a lot of intense
1425. 55:55international situations with how is it
1426. 55:56but whether you're running a business
1427. 55:58it's worse than our marriage whether
1428. 56:00you're a parent whether you're on a team
1429. 56:01yeah works with everything yeah if
1430. 56:03that's wherever people are involved
1431. 56:06human beings yeah that's right Chris
1432. 56:09thank you so much my pleasure man
1433. 56:12[Music]