Chinese Medicine Final — Transcript
Full transcript
- 0:10First of all, I think that without acupuncture I’d have never gotten through it,
- 0:13Acupuncture builds and fixes me.
- 0:18My general feeling is good, I am very assured because I know acupuncture will come.
- 0:26Every time I had a problem, acupuncture solved it.
- 0:49Traditional Chinese medicine around the world, family medicine, internal medicine,
- 0:55[Prof. Eran Ben-Arye- Director of Complementary and Traditional Medicine Unit, Lin, Hacarmel, Zevulun] surgery, oncology, psychiatry, neurology, pediatrics, and more.
- 1:03Welcome to the movie where we showcase the basic principles of traditional Chinese medicine.
- 1:09The various frameworks, the places where the therapist in Chinese medicine uses the Chinese needle,
- 1:16The plant, touch, movement, nutrition, meditation, and adjustments.
- 1:23Traditional Chinese medicine refers to an ancient philosophy, 11 00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:32,819 Concepts like Yin and Yang,
- 1:32Concepts like the five elements,
- 1:35Observing the macro-cosmos, nature, observing the micro-cosmos, the human being,
- 1:42At relations, it’s all relative nothing is absolute,
- 1:49[Chinese Philosophy- Yin Yang]it makes us look at the Chinese’s world views
- 1:53[Peled Zahor- Chinese Medicine Practitioner] the whole universe as an essence, one inseparable entity,
- 2:01We are inseparable from the crow you might here in the background,
- 2:05Or the breeze that has passed now,
- 2:08And the Chinese have different ways of observing that according to them cerate categories.
- 2:13If we ask about one of the main categories,
- 2:17That maybe people know by name, Yin and Yang,
- 2:21That is a division that easier for us westerners, because it shows dual sides,
- 2:28Hot and cold, up and down, manly and feminine, male and female,
- 2:35But, and that’s the twist in chinese medicine, it does not appear,
- 2:42Meaning in a square separated to two but in the symbol that most people
- 2:47Will recognize and know to call it Yin and Yang, that it has movement in it.
- 2:52And they accept each other,
- 2:55They are both in everything and it’s always in movement,
- 2:59They constantly feed each other,
- 3:01They keep consuming each other, like day and night,
- 3:05They are every one, those who remember there’s a small dot,
- 3:08They each contain the potential of the other within them, at any given moment,
- 3:14And that beautiful picture in my eyes, that describes the whole universe we are in,
- 3:21Within Chinese medicine is used in our work,
- 3:25And then we look at the balance, their presence and absence,
- 3:30Or the extreme of their presence or absence, of heat and cold in the patient,
- 3:35Or of strength and weakness,
- 3:38Or of a certain area in contrast to another,
- 3:40Th right side versus the left,
- 3:42The front versus the back,
- 3:44The limbs versus the center etc.,
- 3:47And try, using that thinking, to find where the dis-harmony is,
- 3:53The imbalance, and with the help of this observance and that thinking,
- 3:58How can we help regain balance,
- 4:03Because this force is a force that is within
- 4:06Veery living creature, we are the only ones that might try
- 4:11To give it some guidance,
- 4:13So this force will work at its best.
- 4:16How do you see the structure of Chinese medicine,
- 4:20How is it different from yours as an internal medicine practitioner that makes solid diagnoses
- 4:24Daily in the ward?
- 4:27[Prof. Elad Schiff- Head of Internal Medicine Department B, and Complementary Medicine Services, Bnai Zion] I don’t think the cinese experience their diagnosis this way,
- 4:30As less solid than mine,
- 4:33They just look at things differently,
- 4:35The evolution of their diagnosis is different.
- 4:39I think the root of their observance
- 4:44Is entirely rooted in the energetic aspect of life and of the its various manifestations.
- 4:50Health and sickness depend on energetic flow.
- 4:55What is the difference between alive and dead?
- 4:58Chi.
- 4:59You just solved the fundamental question of our existence. 62 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,440 [Chinese Philosophy- Chi] and again inhale,
- 5:07Really feel the qi in the center of our palms.
- 5:11There is nothing that isn’t chi,
- 5:14Everything has it’s own chi, something that is alive, something that is inanimate,
- 5:19You and I, the space between us,
- 5:24This place, this tree has its own chi,
- 5:28The space between me and the chi that is here,
- 5:31The heavens above us,
- 5:33Every space has his own chi,
- 5:37There is actually nothing without chi.
- 5:40But the dead has everything within him,
- 5:42If he were to lie here in front of us,
- 5:44He has muscles, and tendons, and bones, and blood vessels, and blood in those vessels,
- 5:49It seems everything I wonderful, but he is dead.
- 5:53What is the difference between him and the living?
- 5:56Energy, the energy the Chinese call chi,
- 6:00Chi is the key to the universe.
- 6:01When that chi flows in a harmonious way,
- 6:05Like a stable river, strong and flowing, there is health.
- 6:09There is a flood of chi, for some reason,
- 6:12It can dietary, it can be caused by the climate,
- 6:18Something toxic we are exposed to,
- 6:20So this chi has a tendency to get stuck, mix, flood,
- 6:25So then there is a tendency to illness,
- 6:29But the body can regain balance again, regain homeostasis.
- 6:34That is how we exercise chi,
- 6:40Work on the flow of energy, if worked loosely you can feel
- 6:45The movement and the heat,
- 6:48But not search for it, of it’s there it’s there.
- 6:51Being someone who is trying to be therapist,
- 6:54Intends to be a therapist, it’s being connected to it and recognizing the existence of this chi,
- 7:01And be in a conscious place in connection with it, because this qi exists independently,
- 7:07Whether I’m aware of it or not, it exists all the time.
- 7:11Meaning the question can be reversed, is there anything that is no chi?
- 7:17When I go inside I look for real physical tissue resistance.
- 7:24[Dani Steinberg- Integrative Chinese Medicine Practitioner, Bnai Zion] I can work the needle, turn it gently,
- 7:27I can extract and insert it,
- 7:29We talk about millimeters here, but I look for tissue resistance.
- 7:34When I feel something that is more, call it thicker,
- 7:41More significant upon entrance, I know I’m at the right place,
- 7:46And I also get an indication from the patient that he has a dull pain in that spot,
- 7:52Or a gentle feeling of flow towards his fingertip.
- 8:02[Chinese philosophy- Meridians] I am working on the meridian called triple heater,
- 8:07That balances the three parts of the body,
- 8:11Upper body, middle and lower, as preparation for the surgery.
- 8:15They are a tool for inner balance in the body.
- 8:20We are not only thinking of the topography,
- 8:23But really where do they pass through, as well as their mental significance.
- 8:28[Prof. Elon Eisenberg- Dean of the Faculty of Medicine, Technion] however when we look at meridians
- 8:30We can definitely see how they repeat patterns of referred,
- 8:33Of referred pain, in many of the cases.
- 8:38So to say I don’t understand how it works, and so it doesn’t exist or I don’t do that, is a mistake.
- 8:47[Chinese Philosophy- Research] I can’t take the Chinese for a moment, speak with them in Hebrew,
- 8:53And conduct the research only in Hebrew and in Israel.
- 8:55If I want to connect these worlds,
- 9:01I take a western diagnosis,
- 9:04And say how would the Chinese look at it.
- 9:06What glasses would the Chinese look through at patients with a western diagnosis.
- 9:12And give them care accordingly.
- 9:15And evaluate the results of the treatment
- 9:17According to western diagnosis, but also according to the Chinese diagnosis,
- 9:20But we are interested in western results, so it’s okay to check respiratory functions,
- 9:26Dyspnea, etc.,
- 9:28Saturation checks in western medicine in order to check the outcome that interests it,
- 9:33But the treatment should be given in Chinese context.
- 9:37But other studies can be done as well,
- 9:40Meaning there are studies who have checked some type of efficiency of certain acupuncture spots.
- 9:45For example we know that this spot, large intestine 4,
- 9:50Is effective in various situations of pain,
- 9:51Also regardless of the specific Chinese syndrome, i.e. it has some kind of quality, 132 00:09:58,179 --> 00:10:00,719 You might say it is a symptomatic quality, yes,
- 10:00But a classic energetic quality, right?
- 10:03Or pericardium 6 for reducing nausea,
- 10:06Whether during the first trimester of pregnancy, or chemotherapy.
- 10:09To what extent do you see room for this correspondence of a research concept that is limited, Western,
- 10:17Which focuses on points and their impact in terms of effectiveness
- 10:21And maybe safety,
- 10:23Compared to one that honors the Chinese creators,
- 10:27The Chinese perception, on a diagnostic level.
- 10:29There are points in Chinese acupuncture that are very potent.
- 10:34At the time during Mao’s revolution there were what they called Barefoot Doctors,
- 10:40A kind of paramedics who were trained in Chinese medicine,
- 10:44They were taught 12, 14, 16 sets of points that were said to be a good set for indigestion,
- 10:50A good set for pain problems,
- 10:53That means there are extremely potent points in Chinese medicine,
- 10:56But they can’t come and give you access to the complexity of illnesses.
- 11:00So if we talk of reducing pain mainly in the general area of the face,
- 11:04Than indeed large intestine 4 is an excellent point, she has a vagotonic effect,
- 11:08She is calming, relaxing, activates the parasympathetic system,
- 11:13Causes a release of enkephalins and endorphins,
- 11:15There will be some sort of improvement, the person will feel its benefits, but it will be limited,
- 11:20So if the pain is limited, some type of limited tooth ache It will work,
- 11:24But if we talk of a more complex pain,
- 11:29Deeper, longer,
- 11:32Then we will have to use other points.
- 11:34The Chinese needle
- 11:37Does it have a specific value to it or is it some therapeutic bases?
- 11:41or is it a part of, actually why do you choose
- 11:45As director of the pain array,
- 11:47To integrate a therapist with needles? Why?
- 11:50The patient doesn’t know whether you are sticking a needle,
- 11:52Whether you are inserting it here or somewhere else,
- 11:54If you are inserting it correctly or not, but you as a therapist,
- 11:57You touch him, let’ say you feel the place, you choose the right place,
- 12:01Y already created some type of contact, touch.
- 12:03Whoever acupunctures correctly doesn’t do it offensively,
- 12:06And sticks the needle, inserts it a little more, moves it a little,
- 12:10before you leave the needle your hand still touches the patient.
- 12:14So I say that in a way, some way subconsciously,
- 12:19It creates a connection with the patient, a feeling of giving, that you are doing something for him.
- 12:26A study that was in the International Journal of Cardiology,
- 12:30A study in China that its head author is Wang,
- 12:33A study that checked the effectiveness of acupuncture in MI prevention,
- 12:42Heart attack prevention after catheterization.
- 12:46The acupuncture was done an hour or two before catheterization,
- 12:49A simple acupuncture in two points, pericardium 6 and pericardium 4,
- 12:54These two points have a known effect on cardiac phenomena,
- 13:00That is how the Chinese have defined it for thousands of years.
- 13:03One group will receive electro acupuncture in points pericardium 4 and pericardium 6
- 13:08For half an hour about an hour before the procedure,
- 13:11Current passes through electrodes that are connected, an known acupuncture method at a certain frequency,
- 13:18And the second group,
- 13:20The sham-acupuncture or sham-acupuncture group,
- 13:23Is a group where they connect electrodes to the skin,
- 13:29With some type of gel and a plastic cover,
- 13:32You put a flickering electro-acupuncture machine next to them,
- 13:36Tell them the machine is working and they are receiving electro-acupuncture,
- 13:39But there’s no current running through it, it’s mock-acupuncture,
- 13:43They are being deceived.
- 13:46And what they found in this study is that in the 24 hours following the catheterization,
- 13:53The group that received acupuncture,
- 13:55Only a third of the had a significant rise in troponin I,
- 14:01A rise defined by five times more then the upper lower normal level of troponin I,
- 14:07Compared to about 70 percent of the patients from the mock-acupuncture group,
- 14:11This means that there was undoubtedly less myocardial damage in the group of people
- 14:15Who received real acupuncture.
- 14:19Moreover, there were less pro-inflammatory markers, interleukin 6 and TNFα,
- 14:24In the group of patients that had real acupuncture.
- 14:31[Chinese Philosophy- the Diagnosis Procedure] the idea of Yin and Yang is quite abstract and so it is difficult for the western brain to grasp,
- 14:35It’s a little like poetry.
- 14:38The Chinese’s concrete way of looking on states of sickness and health,
- 14:41Is actually to classify by syndrome.
- 14:46That means that when you look at this tapestry of organs,
- 14:49And the energetic movement between its acupuncture points and along its meridians,
- 14:54That same chi we spoke of flows there,
- 14:57Where do the pathologies lie,
- 15:00And how one organ echoes its imbalance through another organ’s balance.
- 15:05[Galit Galil- integrative Chinese Medicine Practitioner] first of all there are the inquiries when I speak with her.
- 15:09Other than the inquiries there are two very important tools.
- 15:12One is pulse, that I feel in both hands,
- 15:16There are different organs in each hand according to Chinese medicine.
- 15:19According to it, it is not only the speed of the pulse that matters, but its quality as well.
- 15:25In Chinese medicine there is a slippery pulse, a wiry pulse,
- 15:29Slippery pulse feels like a pearl necklace beneath your fingers,
- 15:32A wiry pulse feels like a stretched guitar string.
- 15:35The other tool is the tongue, I look at the tongue.
- 15:39On the tongue you can see a map of all the organs,
- 15:41Other then that you can see whether the cover is thick or thin, yellow or white, grooves,
- 15:47Teeth marks, if it lies loose on the teeth, it leaves a mark.
- 15:50It might be that someone comes out of surgery and he is all hyper,
- 15:55And it’s not clear to you why.
- 15:58And really he is like that,
- 16:01He is very active and all, but in the end his blood test results aren’t good,
- 16:07So you want to lower, ground, balance.
- 16:11On the other hand someone who came out and is weak, and is pale,
- 16:20And all you want is to reactivate his intestine
- 16:23Because he went through a surgery where they cut out a part of it, or they opened some kind of blockage,
- 16:28And you really want to set it into motion.
- 16:30As much movement in the intestine as possible, give It that energy,
- 16:36And all of a sudden he has bowel movement and we have done him a great service.
- 16:45That’s Yin and Yang,
- 16:47It’s to assess who stands before you,
- 16:48Within really a few questions, a minute or two,
- 16:54And feel the pulse, look at their tongue, and get working.
- 17:03[Chinese Philosophy - Areas of Treatment: Nutrition, Plants, Touch, Movement, Acupuncture] It's all one medicine, we will connect nutrition if it is very, very relevant,
- 17:08Just like we will acupuncture, just like plants.
- 17:12[Sagi Gavrieli- Integrative Chinese Medicine Practitioner] my goal is to create balance within the patient,
- 17:16And nutrition is a tool the same as acupuncture, same as plants, and they do,
- 17:22I am actually looking for the best way to improve the patient’s life.
- 17:29[Acupressure- Pressure Points Therapy]
- 17:40[Mucus Treatment- Heating Using the Mugworts Plant]
- 17:45[Chi Gong- Meditative Movement] Exhale,
- 17:49And again, the left hand goes up to the third eye, the right hand to the Dan-Tien.
- 17:55So now we will connect, the heavens to man, to us and to the earth.
- 18:05The needles allow me to be as accurate as I possibly can,
- 18:10The most surgical for that matter.
- 18:12When I arrive at the point and I use the needle,
- 18:16I give the patient the best service I can.
- 18:23[Chinese Acupuncture- Needle, Therapist, Patient] first I look for the point, its location, and then I look for the navel,
- 18:28And with Mira you could feel a dent because there was a weakness, a deficiency,
- 18:33So you fall into that dent and the needle is swallowed when you insert it,
- 18:38She wants more and more, more, more,
- 18:41Until I reach the chi, a type of feeling where I reached something, it stops me, I am there.
- 18:49In acupuncture, you can see a needle’s sting,
- 18:53And you can see much more than that.
- 18:56I disconnect from myself, I am on the side,
- 18:59The feeling, I am very connected to what the patient is feeling at the moment,
- 19:07I am very connected to the body, to the feeling of my fingers when they look for the chi.
- 19:14Even if I’m working manually, even if I’m looking for a point and asking If it’s sensitive here or there,
- 19:20I am already trying to identify the patient’s facial expressions,
- 19:26And where they are, trying to feel them.
- 19:33First of all I felt
- 19:35My body floating, I mean I was in a very deep meditation,
- 19:42I didn’t feel my body.
- 19:44As if you injected me with Valume.
- 19:46Such a perfect relaxation that it was really difficult for me to make a fist.
- 19:53I am scared of needles, scared to death,
- 19:56Orit knows I am very scared of needles and believe me I have had them inserted,
- 20:02But that’s not important, I am scared to death.
- 20:04But I come, and I think it does affect the soul, the body.
- 20:13At the end of the day even physically, yes.
- 20:17Here, if after last time I could walk my dog almost a kilometer with no problem,
- 20:21And straighten my leg, then I think it affects physically as well.
- 20:28[Dr. Dikla Kruger- Intern’s in Family Medicine] it’s a different needle, because in third and fourth year of medical school
- 20:32You already learn how to do a blood test, it’s totally different,
- 20:35You learn how to take from the patient.
- 20:40And the needles we use to give to the patient,
- 20:43It’s totally different,
- 20:45You come with a completely different intention,
- 20:50The whole framework is different.
- 20:55[Chinese Pearls- Acupuncture and Touch in the Delivery Room, Maternity ward, Bnai Zion] So you told me you have no prior experience in alternative medicine,
- 20:58So how was it for you to come to the delivery room and receive the massage and acupuncture?
- 21:05Very pleasant for now, relaxing,
- 21:07I hope it helps speed things up, or advance, or something,
- 21:12But even if not, it was very pleasant, a treat.
- 21:18In the delivery room we have two main uses for alternative medicine,
- 21:21I speak of acupuncture and reflexology.
- 21:26The first use is to induce child birth.
- 21:30As part of the process of inducing childbirth in women who have a medical need to induce labor,
- 21:35As opposed to waiting for a spontaneous birth,
- 21:38So together with the medical procedure of inducing child birth,
- 21:41We will sometimes combine integrative medicine,
- 21:44[Dr. Rami Samur- Maternity ward director, Bnai Zion] that as can be seen can accelerate the process,
- 21:49And the second use is calming, mainly to calm the mother.
- 21:57[Chinese Pearls- Reducing Symptoms of Neuropathy Caused by Chemotherapy, Oncologic Services, Lin Medical Center; Self-Acupuncturing Under the Guidance of Integrative Medicine Doctor]
- 22:02Come show me how to find it, I am looking, okay,
- 22:05The first groove located between the two fingers in the part farthest from the fingers,
- 22:12Aim to that place, give a little push, then spin it.
- 22:19I am going towards the membranes, and the angle between the two fingers,
- 22:26Give it a push, and slowly turn it.
- 22:31[Chinese Pearls - A Combination of Acupuncture and Guided Imagery, Oncologic Service, Lynn Medical Center] Yes, Zipi we will begin to concentrate on breathing while Orit inserts the needles,
- 22:45And the internal work starts.
- 22:50We focus, very good, on breathing.
- 23:01A very interesting process happens, in the interaction between the three of us,
- 23:07[Olga Agur- Head of Psycho-Oncologic Services, Lin] When I look at both Orit and Zipi,
- 23:15And what’s important to me are the nonverbal messages.
- 23:19Verbally I am in a mood to speak, say, move into position,
- 23:25And simultaneously I am looking at what Orit is doing right now,
- 23:30How Zipi reacts to it, and whether I need to react to it as well or not.
- 23:37When Olga speaks of breathing,
- 23:39I could insert the needles according to what Olga says.
- 23:43[Dr. Orit Garsel- Deputy Director of the Array of Integrative Medicine, Lin] It’s true I was looking at Zipi to see how she was breathing,
- 23:45But I already knew what was about to happen because I heard Olga’s voice in the background,
- 23:50So I could direct the needles together with what Olga was saying.
- 23:59[Chinese Pearls - Mental Health, Psychiatric Department, Emek Medical Center] Ultimately the assimilation is derived from the tools that we have, that I have, that we have,
- 24:05[Dr. Alon Reshef- Head of the Psychiatric Ward, Emek Medical Center] that means I managed to create a situation where we have Chinese medicine therapy in the ward.
- 24:11How is this practically done, how does It happen?
- 24:16We have a few therapists.
- 24:18Like you mentioned in reflexology, in Chinese medicine,
- 24:23There’s yoga therapy, movement therapy and more,
- 24:27We combine them in private and group sessions,
- 24:31When we try to create, in military lingo: power multipliers,
- 24:37That means we want there to be a synergic effect
- 24:42Between the so-called alternative treatments,
- 24:46Or the non-conventional, and the conventional treatments.
- 24:50[Chinese Pearls- Battlefield Acupuncture]
- 25:00[“Battlefield Acupuncture” In Order to Reduce Pain During Surgery, Carmel Medical Center]
- 25:19I now acupuncture the ear according to pain management protocol.
- 25:23Come breathe.
- 25:27Pain management protocol is actually what is also called Battlefield Acupuncture,
- 25:34It’s acupuncture according to protocols developed by the American army.
- 25:39[Integrative-Palliative Care in Nursing - Lynn Medical Center, Pediatric Oncology, Rambam] 334 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:51,000 [Ruti Ofir – Head Nurse, Graduate of Integrative Medicine Training] Mom told me you had a bit of nausea after your treatment, right? -yes
- 25:51It’s an unpleasant feeling.
- 25:52So there’s another option for another very gentle pressure point in your hand,
- 25:59And you will see it will help.
- 26:01I can show this to mom too, so she can do it to you too, okay? -yes
- 26:07Can you give me your hand sweety?
- 26:08Continue, you can continue to close your eyes and feel calm, okay?
- 26:14Here that’s the point. Close your eyes, try and be calm.
- 26:26[Chinese Pearls - Integration in Home Hospice, Unit for Continued Care - Haifa District, Clalit Health Services] Basically when we arrive at a Home Hospice as a team, we enter the home,
- 26:31And the last time is actually with the last patient we were with,
- 26:33So then, you come in as well,
- 26:36That means the acupuncturist comes in, another therapist.
- 26:38And there’s the family, and the person himself,
- 26:42And then knowing that when a more intensive care is needed,
- 26:48So there is an answer from several directions,
- 26:53And in various forms, so it is spread throughout the week.
- 26:56All week and also on all, across all the types we have learned.
- 26:59Yes, yes, there was a nurse, there was you, a family doctor in the background,
- 27:06And the connection we had was very significant to everyone.
- 27:11I remember there was a time when I came to him, in terms of the cooperation between us,
- 27:16By chance he had dyspnea, I gave him medicine,
- 27:19But because I knew the day before you added another needle in a certain point,
- 27:23I added that needle, just in case,
- 27:26It was in heart 6 or heart 7, I don’t remember exactly, something there, seven, heart 7,
- 27:30And in my opinion, it all worked together to calm his dyspnea,
- 27:35The medicine and the needle both.
- 27:41[Chinese Pearls - Connection] The intention is to be in this space where the movement takes place,
- 27:48And is some particular realization of a movement of connection,
- 27:54Which takes place in the common dimension between the one we call ‘patient’,
- 27:59To those who are called ‘therapist’, and the particular action of acupuncture is
- 28:05One action out of many actions that take place in this space,
- 28:11With a certain intention because that is acupuncture.
- 28:16And the intention and trial of whoever is the therapist, is to be very awake and present.
- 28:24Do you see in this dance between Yin and Yang a reflection of the therapeutic movement
- 28:31Between the therapist and the patient?
- 28:34I think the dynamic is very very nice,
- 28:37Seeing it as a non-hierarchical place,
- 28:40Which is very reminiscent of the classic dichotomy we live in,
- 28:43It’s the doctor, it’s the patient, yes,
- 28:46Versus some type of relationship that breathes, that has transitions within it,
- 28:51That has the possibility of variability,
- 28:53When sometimes I'm very Yang, I’ll be very, very conspicuous,
- 28:59And the patient who is in a more Yin place converges on himself,
- 29:02And sometimes I have to show dome kind of convergence myself
- 29:06In order to allow the patient to be in a different place.
- 29:12[Chinese Pearls - Purpose of Integration] My goal, when I get to the Angio Room, is integration.
- 29:17It’s not necessarily to understand the blockage because I won’t solve it in one treatment.
- 29:24It’s not Chinese to come and say that with one treatment I can open the blockage.
- 29:29So, what do I mean when I say integration?
- 29:32I mean that my goal is to facilitate,
- 29:39To allow the doctor who does the catheterization to work under the best conditions possible.
- 29:44That means I don’t come to an Angio patient thinking of blockages,
- 29:48I think of balance, of his peace, I think of saturation,
- 29:54I think of blood pressure, I think of pulse,
- 29:56I want them all to be balanced and peaceful,
- 30:01And then the doctor who does the catheterization can do his job.
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