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Child Attachment Expert: We're Stressing Newborns & It's Causing ADHD! Hidden Dangers Of Daycare! — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 26,338 words · 4,266 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00One in five children will not leave
0:01childhood without developing a serious
0:03mental illness. Anxiety, depression,
0:06ADHD, behavioral problems. And what
0:09pisses me off is that we're not really
0:11educating or telling parents the truth
0:13as to why. Why is it that what you say
0:16is so troubling for some people?
0:17Sometimes facts are an inconvenient
0:19truth, but everything I'm going to say
0:21is supported by research.
0:23Erica Komisar is a parenting expert and
0:25psychoanalyst
0:26who uses over 30 years of research
0:28to challenge the societal norms on
0:30parenting and early child development.
0:32There's some myths that really have to
0:34be debunked about how to raise a healthy
0:36child. And the first is daycare is good
0:38for children for socialization. No, it
0:41is so bad for their brain. And it's been
0:43known to increase aggression, behavioral
0:45problems, attachment disorders because
0:47babies need their mothers in the first 3
0:49years for emotional security.
0:50Can a father do that? So, fathers are
0:52important in a different way, and I'll
0:53go through all of that. But they're both
0:55critical because if you're raised
0:57without one, you are missing a piece.
0:59And then there's quality versus quantity
1:01time. Myth. You need to be there a
1:03quality of time as well as a quantity of
1:05time. You can't have a fabulous career
1:08and then come home and be present for
1:10your child on your time. It needs to be
1:12on their time. And there's more.
1:13And we're going to go through all of
1:15them, but are there any areas of
1:17privilege that you need to acknowledge?
1:18Maybe someone who doesn't have a partner
1:20there or someone who is in an extremely
1:22difficult economic situation. I do, but
1:24there are ways to creatively deal with
1:26it. And I'll go through each of them.
1:28So, there's
1:30This has always blown my mind a little
1:32bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
1:34regularly haven't yet subscribed to this
1:36show. So, could I ask you for a favor
1:38before we start? If you like the show
1:40and you like what we do here and you
1:41want to support us, the free simple way
1:43that you can do just that is by hitting
1:44the subscribe button. And my commitment
1:46to you is if you do that, then I'll do
1:48everything in my power, me and my team,
1:49to make sure that this show is better
1:51for you every single week. We'll listen
1:53to your feedback. We'll find the guest
1:55that you want me to speak to. And we'll
1:56continue to do what we do. Thank you so
1:58much.
2:02Erica,
2:03you're clearly on a mission.
2:06And I
2:07get that energy from you that there's
2:09really an idea that you believe that
2:11much of the world doesn't believe or is
2:15struggling to accept in some way, but
2:17it's an important idea.
2:20What is the mission that you're on?
2:22I like to think of it as three P's,
2:25presence, prioritization, and
2:27prevention. And I'll go through each of
2:29them. Um
2:31my mission is to
2:33educate parents and uh policy makers and
2:37clinicians and educators about the
2:40the fact that for children to be
2:42mentally healthy in the future,
2:45you have to be physically and
2:46emotionally present for them throughout
2:49childhood, but particularly in the two
2:51critical periods of brain development,
2:53which are zero to three and nine to 25,
2:56which is adolescence. So, in those two
2:58critical periods of brain development,
3:01uh particularly zero to three,
3:03um much of a child's development depends
3:06on their environment and you are their
3:08environment. So, I run around the world
3:10talking about the importance of physical
3:12and emotional presence, attachment
3:14security. Attachment security is the
3:17foundation for future mental health.
3:20Prioritization, we prioritize everything
3:24today other than our children. We
3:25prioritize our work, our careers,
3:29uh our material success, our personal
3:31desires and pleasures, but what we're
3:33not prioritizing is children.
3:36Um and you know, that's a problem
3:39because if we don't prioritize them,
3:41they break down. They may break down at
3:44three, they may break down at eight, or
3:46they may not break down till they're in
3:48adolescence, but eventually they break
3:50down.
3:51And prevention, there's so much that we
3:54can do. We have a mental health crisis
3:56now in the world.
3:58It varies to a certain degree. In
3:59America, one in five children will not
4:01leave childhood without breaking down at
4:04some point, without developing a serious
4:06mental illness. Anxiety, depression,
4:10ADHD, behavioral problems,
4:13um suicidal thoughts. So, uh we have a
4:16problem. In the UK, it's one in six. In
4:18America, it's one in five. It's around
4:21the world, it's about one in five. That
4:23is a shocking figure. And so, and and
4:26the truth is we can do a great deal to
4:29prevent that. The idea that we are
4:31trying to put out fires without talking
4:34about what is the origin of these
4:37issues. The way that the mental health
4:39care system works now, it's like what I
4:41call cutting the grass.
4:43Uh children are medicated, which is
4:45basically just pain management. Um
4:47they're given CBT therapy, which again
4:50is just pain management. But why aren't
4:52we asking the important questions, which
4:54is
4:55where does emotional regulation
4:58originate? Where does it come from?
5:00When does it start? How do we foster
5:03development in children from a very
5:05young age to promote resilience to
5:08stress and adversity in the future? And
5:10so, those are the my three missions.
5:13And for someone who doesn't know your
5:16work and doesn't isn't aware of you,
5:19they might be thinking, how would you
5:21know, Erica?
5:22How would you know the answer?
5:24So, I'm a psychoanalyst.
5:26Um I'm also a social worker. I started
5:28out as a social worker and then became a
5:30psychoanalyst. I'm also an author of
5:31books on parent guidance and parent
5:34education. Um and I've been in practice
5:37seeing patients. So, the majority of my
5:39work is still seeing patients. I have a
5:41full-time job of seeing patients. And uh
5:45as someone who is also a parent, have
5:47three children of my own.
5:49Um, and so as a parent, as a clinician,
5:53uh, as an author who has for the past
5:5720 years been researching, and what I
6:00did is I collected research in
6:02epigenetics
6:03and attachment theory and neuroscience
6:06and uh, wrote my first book Being There
6:09because what what happened is I was
6:11seeing this uptick in mental illness in
6:14children, and this is really how I got
6:16into it. Um,
6:18about 30 years ago, I started practicing
6:21about 36 years ago, but I was probably 5
6:25years into my practice, and I was seeing
6:27that the families that were coming to
6:29see me had younger and younger children
6:32that were being diagnosed
6:34with very serious mental illnesses and
6:36being medicated at a very young age,
6:39basically silencing their pain.
6:41And what I was observing in my practice
6:44is that those children who were doing
6:46the least well
6:48were the ones whose mothers were the
6:50least present in their lives. So, their
6:53primary attachment figures were the
6:55least present in their lives.
6:57And so then I started looking at the
6:59research. I looked at all the
7:00neuroscience research since the '90s and
7:03all of the new new research that had
7:04come out. Um, I looked at the old
7:07attachment theories which have been
7:08around since the '60s, and I looked at
7:10the epigenetic research which was rather
7:12new, too.
7:13And I saw this trend. I I saw that we
7:18were abandoning our children for our own
7:22desires, for our careers, for material
7:25success.
7:26Um, and there was a great deal of
7:28misunderstanding about the irreducible
7:30emotional needs of children.
7:32We're going to go through all of that
7:34today. I'm very excited to learn more
7:36about all of this. I'm not a parent
7:37myself. Um, from all the
7:39investigative research we've done, you
7:41have three very well-adjusted children.
7:44Um so, congratulations for that, and I
7:45hope to have
7:47successful children myself one day. But,
7:48I'm also just really interested in
7:50understanding myself through the work
7:52that you've done and the work that you
7:53continue to do because we're all at one
7:55point children, and much of the
7:56fingerprints of that early experience
7:58still exist in us today. So, I'm keen to
7:59understand how things that might have
8:01happened to me or anyone listening today
8:03when we were younger
8:05may have shaped us in prosocial,
8:07antisocial ways or productive or
8:09unproductive ways.
8:11You mentioned that you still see clients
8:13and patients today.
8:15What kind of patients do you see?
8:18What are they struggling with, and who
8:20are they? Are you seeing the parents,
8:21the kids, both?
8:24Well, I have a very large parent
8:26guidance practice because of the books
8:28that I write um and the articles I
8:30write. I also write for the Wall Street
8:32Journal and other newspapers. So, I
8:34you know, people find me through my
8:36writing, um and then they reach out for
8:38help. Um
8:40And and so, I have the parent guidance
8:42basically means people come to see me
8:44either both parents or one parent
8:47because they have questions about their
8:48child's development or something's going
8:50wrong. Their child's starting to to
8:52develop symptoms,
8:54um and they don't want to medicate them,
8:56and they want to understand what's
8:57really at the root cause of of of the
9:00issue. And so, that's a a good portion
9:03of my practice, but I also see
9:05individual patients for depression and
9:07anxiety, and I see couples, and you
9:09know, the joke about psychoanalysts is
9:11we're all specialists in depression and
9:13anxiety.
9:15But, um yeah. So, I see individuals and
9:17couples, but a lot of parent guidance
9:19work.
9:20And they come to you typically because
9:21they're they're noticing something is
9:23not right with their child. Sometimes
9:25they'll come preventatively because they
9:27want to raise a healthy child, and
9:29there's so much white noise in society.
9:31There's so much of misinformation.
9:34Our instincts are to lean into our
9:37children. Our evolutionary drive is to
9:41create a feeling of safety and security
9:44for our children and to be as present as
9:46possible and to soothe them when they're
9:48in distress and to be there to teach
9:50them our values and
9:52but society
9:55took a turn.
9:57It took a turn in the I suppose you
9:59could say going back to the Industrial
10:01Revolution. If I really want to go back,
10:03I'll say the Industrial Revolution was a
10:04time when
10:06women were forced into the workplace,
10:09into factories and cities, you know,
10:11they were separated from children for
10:12the first time, but really the turn that
10:14society took that that I think has a lot
10:16to do with what's happening today is the
10:18me movement of the '60s and also the
10:21feminist movement. Both of those
10:23movements which had a tremendously
10:25positive impact on society in one way
10:28also had a tremendously negative impact
10:30on society. When women decided that it
10:35was
10:36cool to go to work and to work full-time
10:39out of the home,
10:41you know, everybody cheered and said,
10:42"Great, you know, women have the same
10:44rights as men and now everybody can be
10:46in the workforce and be independent and
10:48make money and do their own thing. Me,
10:50me, me, me, me."
10:52The problem is that children were
10:54dropped.
10:56They were abandoned.
10:57And their needs which are not needs that
11:01are going to shift because society
11:03shifts because they have irreducible
11:06neurological emotional needs. So, we
11:09know that babies are born neurologically
11:12and emotionally fragile.
11:15And so, what that means is they're not
11:16born resilient. And today, what's being
11:20projected onto babies is they can handle
11:23a lot. They can handle stress, they can
11:26handle separation,
11:28they can handle you going back to work
11:30after 6 weeks or 3 months and leaving
11:32them in daycare with strangers or, you
11:35know, and from an evolutionary
11:37perspective,
11:38babies have always needed the physical
11:41skin-to-skin contact with their mothers
11:43for the first year. Most parts of the
11:45world babies are worn on their mothers'
11:47bodies
11:48because mothers perform a number of
11:50really important functions for babies
11:52that are biological functions based on
11:55our evolutionary need to provide our
11:58babies with what we call attachment
12:00security. Um so, you know, society took
12:03a turn and it's it's um it's caused a
12:07lot of damage. I mean, this mental
12:08health crisis in children
12:10I saw coming
12:1230 years ago.
12:14And it was already, you know, so um you
12:17know, I have uh friends and colleagues
12:19like Jonathan Haidt who says, "Oh, well,
12:21it didn't start till social media." And
12:23that's false because I was seeing this
12:26uptick and if you really look, there was
12:28an uptick in mental illness in children
12:30um going back decades and it had
12:33everything to do with the shift in
12:35society towards
12:37uh self-centeredness, towards
12:39narcissism, towards individualism,
12:41towards me, me, me.
12:43And so, you know, and I always say that
12:45you don't have to have children, period,
12:48to have a satisfying life. But if you're
12:50going to have children, you need to be
12:54equipped to care for them because having
12:57children alone without really
12:58understanding what it means to care for
13:00them and being prepared to take on that
13:02responsibility
13:04is causing our children to break down.
13:07Why do you mention mothers and not
13:08fathers in that? Because you've you seem
13:11to have an emphasis on the role that a
13:12mother plays and it seems to be more
13:14important in your view than the role
13:16that a father plays or maybe even that a
13:18nanny or some other caregiver could
13:20play. And I noticed that on your first
13:22book which was written in 2017,
13:24Being There, on the cover it says why
13:26prioritizing motherhood in bigger
13:29letters
13:30in the first 3 years matters.
13:32Scientifically, evolutionarily, with
13:35studies and research, how can you make
13:36the case to me to make me believe that
13:39the role of the mother in particular is
13:41essential versus a father or other
13:43caregiver?
13:44So, in fact, in the book it talks about
13:47the difference between mothers and
13:48fathers cuz that's an important
13:50question.
13:51Um and the reason I wrote about mothers
13:53is not because fathers are unimportant,
13:56but fathers are important and in a
13:57different way.
13:59So, there's a whole debate in society
14:01about this kind of idea of gender
14:03neutrality that mothers and fathers are
14:06interchangeable, but actually from an
14:08evolutionary perspective as mammals
14:09they're not interchangeable. They serve
14:11different functions.
14:13And those roles and those behaviors are
14:15connected to nurturing hormones. So,
14:17mothers
14:18um are really important for what we call
14:21sensitive empathic nurturing when
14:23children are infants and toddlers. That
14:25means that when children are in
14:28distress, mothers soothe babies and
14:31therefore regulate their emotions from
14:35moment to moment. Every time a mother
14:36soothes a baby
14:38uh with skin-to-skin contact and eye
14:40contact and the soothing tone of her
14:42voice, she's leaning into that baby's
14:45pain and she is regulating that baby's
14:48emotions. And the way I like to think
14:49about it is that
14:51you know, when babies are born, they're
14:53born
14:55emotionally
14:57disjointed. Think about sailing in the
14:59Atlantic. This is how babies' emotions
15:01go. They'll go from zero to 60 in 3
15:03seconds with their emotions.
15:05Um and where we want to get babies is to
15:09sailing in the Caribbean. Not
15:11flatlining, but we want them to be able
15:13to regulate their emotions, but they're
15:15not born that way. And so, mothers
15:19because they soothe the baby from moment
15:21to moment When they're physically and
15:23emotionally present enough in the first
15:253 years, they help a baby to learn how
15:28to regulate their emotions. So, by 3
15:30years of age, 85% of the right brain is
15:33developed. And by 3 years of age, babies
15:36can then start to internalize the
15:37ability to regulate their own emotions.
15:39Now, if mothers aren't present as the
15:42primary attachment figures to do that
15:45mirroring of emotion, to do that
15:48soothing of of their emotions, then
15:51babies don't learn how to regulate their
15:53emotions. The other thing that's
15:54important that mothers do is they buffer
15:56babies from stress by wearing them on
15:59their body for the first year. And then
16:01by being as present as possible for 3
16:03years, they actually protect babies'
16:06brains from cortisol, the stress
16:08hormone. So, there is a a hormone called
16:12oxytocin. It's the love hormone.
16:15And it is protective against cortisol.
16:18The more a mother nurtures with
16:20sensitive empathic nurturing, meaning
16:22when the baby cries, the mother goes,
16:24"Oh, sweetheart. You know, let me see
16:26the boo-boo. Let me kiss the boo-boo."
16:28That actually raises the oxytocin in the
16:32baby's brain, which then protects the
16:34baby from cortisol. Can a father do
16:37that? So, now fathers, why are fathers
16:40important? So, fathers also produce
16:43oxytocin, but it has a different effect
16:46on their brain. So, for mothers,
16:48oxytocin makes mothers sensitive
16:50empathic nurtures, very vigilant to the
16:52baby's distress.
16:54When fathers produce oxytocin, it comes
16:56from a different part of their brain.
16:58And it makes them more what we call
17:00playful tactile stimulators of babies.
17:03What does that sound like to you?
17:05Playful tactile stimulators of babies.
17:08Throwing the baby up in the air and
17:09tickling the baby and running after the
17:11baby and roughhousing.
17:13And so, that's important for a variety
17:15of reasons. Um first, it encourages
17:18things like exploration and risk-taking.
17:22It encourages separation.
17:24And fathers do this really important
17:27thing, which is they help the baby to
17:29learn to regulate certain emotions. So,
17:31mothers help to regulate sadness, fear,
17:35distress. Fathers help to regulate
17:37excitement and aggression. So, when
17:40fathers aren't in the house, when there
17:42are single mothers raising children
17:44without a father,
17:46often little boys develop behavioral
17:48problems is what we're seeing, that they
17:50can't regulate their aggression. Because
17:52fathers help little boys in particular,
17:55but little girls, too, to regulate
17:56aggression. So, when fathers aren't
17:58around, you'll often see little boys who
18:02are more impulsive, who are more
18:03aggressive. Um, so, the answer is
18:06fathers and mothers are both critical to
18:09the development of children, which is a
18:11very controversial thing to say today.
18:14Because if you're raised without one,
18:16you are missing a piece.
18:18But, they're not the same. And they're
18:20not the same because our hormones
18:22dictate they're not the same. So,
18:24fathers produce a hormone in great
18:26quantities called vasopressin.
18:29Vasopressin is the protective aggressive
18:31hormone.
18:32And what does it do? It helps fathers to
18:34protect their family. There was a study
18:37that was done where mothers and fathers
18:39lay in bed,
18:41and the baby cries.
18:44Uh, it was out of the UK, okay, this
18:45study. The baby cries, and the father
18:49sleep through the baby's distress cries,
18:51but the mothers wake up right away.
18:53Okay?
18:54But, with the rustling of leaves outside
18:56the window, the mothers sleep through
18:58it, and the fathers wake up right away.
19:01Because the fathers are attuned to
19:03predatorial threat. So, our nurturing
19:06hormones make us different. I mean, the
19:09fact that we can say that there are many
19:12things that are similar between women
19:14and men. Of course, we're both
19:16intelligent, we can both be ambitious.
19:19Um but I think the idea that we want to
19:23kind of make everything the same when
19:26it's just not factual. It is the
19:28inconvenient truth that mothers and
19:30fathers
19:32nurturing hormones dictate that if they
19:34are healthy and they've been raised in a
19:36healthy environment, they are different.
19:39Now, does that mean that a father can't
19:41raise a child and be a sensitive
19:42empathic nurturer? It it doesn't mean he
19:45can't take on that role. But if as a
19:47society we can't acknowledge the
19:49differences, then a father can't learn
19:53to be a sensitive empathic nurturer.
19:54Meaning these are instinctual behaviors.
19:57And so that infant, if that father is
20:00going to stay home with that baby,
20:02acknowledging the differences allows
20:04that father then to become a sensitive
20:07empathic nurturer.
20:09So interesting because these aren't the
20:12ideas that are socially accepted. Or at
20:15least the ideas you see on social media.
20:16And funnily enough, as you were
20:18speaking, I recorded everything you said
20:20and I ran it through AI and AI said the
20:22core ideas that you shared
20:24um are well supported by evolutionary
20:25psychology and neuroscience, which is
20:27quite surprising cuz usually
20:29AI argues with people.
20:31so so the thing is none of the books I
20:33write are based on opinion. So I'm I'm
20:36very skittish about saying anything that
20:38isn't backed up with research. Um so
20:42it's everything that I write about and
20:45speak about is is supported by research.
20:49Why is it that what you say is so
20:51troubling for some people?
20:52Have you You know why, right? Cuz it cuz
20:54it makes us confront a set of realities
20:57that It's an inconvenient truth, to
20:59quote Al Gore. It's an inconvenient
21:01truth. Um sometimes facts are an
21:04inconvenient truth. Just like, you know,
21:06climate change is an inconvenient truth.
21:08Um this is an inconvenient truth. It
21:11inconveniences people. It also makes
21:13people feel guilty. So,
21:15I don't believe that guilt is a bad
21:18feeling. I don't believe that guilt is a
21:20bad thing.
21:21Guilt is a sign that your ego is
21:24functioning. It's a sign that the part
21:27of you, the part of your ego called the
21:29superego, can identify something that
21:32feels right and wrong. So,
21:34if you look at a baby who's crying,
21:36who's your baby, and you feel nothing,
21:38that means that there's a part of you
21:40that is dead inside. There's a part of
21:43you that is unempathic towards your own
21:46young. And we would say that that
21:48doesn't make that person a bad person.
21:50It makes that person someone who
21:52probably had some early trauma
21:54themselves, right? It means that they
21:56probably have some kind of attachment
21:58disorder where they can't be attuned to
22:01their their baby's pain, right? So, when
22:05you are guilty, it means you have
22:07internal conflict. It means two parts of
22:09you are struggling with each other. The
22:12part of you that wants to do whatever
22:13you want to do. I want to go out to
22:15work. I want to make money. I want to be
22:16free.
22:18You know, and the other part of you that
22:19says, "Wait a second, but my baby, my
22:22baby needs me. Look at my vulnerable
22:25baby. Look how sad. Look at the distress
22:28that my absence is causing that baby."
22:30So, if we don't feel guilt, then our
22:34species is lost. We're lost.
22:37Now, excessive guilt is another thing.
22:40If you're a good enough mother or good
22:42enough father, and you still feel
22:44guilty, then we call it anxiety. But for
22:46the most part, what I say makes a lot of
22:50women and men feel guilty.
22:52And again, I don't see that as a bad
22:54thing. And I think when we tell
22:57parents to turn away from their guilt
22:59instead of turning toward it,
23:02When we turn towards our internal
23:04conflicts, we tend to make better
23:06decisions for ourselves, for our
23:08children, for our families. Um, but when
23:11we turn away from those conflicts, we
23:14tend not to make good decisions, and
23:16those tend to have long-term
23:18consequences.
23:20What exactly are you inconveniencing
23:22with your truth?
23:24What are the ideas that you're That you
23:26have to sacrifice time
23:28and money
23:30and freedom.
23:32That if you want to raise healthy
23:34children, it's going to require
23:36discomfort and frustration and
23:38sacrifice.
23:40And what's interesting is that what's
23:42also happened is because we're raising
23:44our children in such a selfish,
23:46self-centered environment.
23:48Um,
23:49young people are more fragile. They are
23:52more emotionally fragile. More of them
23:54have attachment disorders. They can't
23:56bear frustration.
23:58They can't bear pain. They can't bear
24:00sleeplessness. You know, the idea that
24:03you have to get a baby nurse because you
24:05can't get up in the middle of the night
24:06with your own baby, and that's become
24:09the norm in certain socioeconomic
24:11circles. I mean,
24:13so
24:15women and men
24:17always raised children in in history in
24:21extended family circles, right?
24:24Um, they weren't isolated. And today
24:26parents are very isolated. So, you would
24:30have your mother staying with you or
24:31you'd have your sister staying with you
24:34or you'd live in a big house and there'd
24:35be people to support you.
24:37Um,
24:38I started a nonprofit uh recently
24:41because I found that so many mothers,
24:44it's called Attachment Circle, so many
24:46mothers feel so isolated
24:50that dealing with the pain and the
24:51discomfort of mothering alone is too
24:54much for them.
24:55So, there is that. So, we live in a very
24:58strange society where people are
25:01separate from one another in their own
25:03houses and apartments and they don't
25:05depend on one another cuz dependency is
25:07a bad word and but there is also this
25:11issue of how are we producing such
25:14fragile fragile youth that even the
25:17discomfort and the frustration of
25:19raising children is too much for them.
25:22Is there a big economic component to
25:24this as well, right? Because if you're
25:26raising children in isolation, the
25:28probability that you have
25:30disposable income
25:32or at least enough money to be able to
25:34just stay at home and raise the kids and
25:36still maintain any standard of quality
25:38standard of life
25:40is lower if you're not doing it with a
25:42big extended family that can support and
25:44and pay for some of those costs.
25:48Interestingly, yes and no to your
25:49question.
25:51Um
25:53people who have
25:55less economic resources are in general
25:59less isolated, but they are also
26:02isolated today. You have a lot of single
26:04mothers raising children
26:06not in an apartment with other family
26:09members who've had to move to other
26:11cities or countries to make a living
26:14um who are really isolated.
26:17I I you know, again, it I think it
26:19crosses socioeconomic lines. Um
26:24but with wealthier people, more affluent
26:27people,
26:28um
26:29they're opting for isolation, many of
26:32them. They're buying big houses, they're
26:34living in the suburbs, or or they're not
26:37wanting to lean on anyone, right? So,
26:40we have what I call a family diaspora.
26:43It's really what it it is, um
26:46which is that people will move away from
26:49their families of origin when they have
26:51children, which is very bizarre and
26:53anti-instinctual. So, the world's become
26:56a global place and we can move wherever
26:58we want, but doesn't it make common
27:00sense? Isn't it a reasonable clause that
27:02you would want to move closer to your
27:05extended family?
27:07Even if they're a pain in the neck,
27:08unless they're abusive. Um, because it
27:12provides you with support. It provides
27:14you with extended family support, but
27:16that's not what's happening.
27:18People are choosing to live
27:21geographically distant from their
27:23families of origin and so it's making it
27:26harder for families. It's making it
27:28harder for women.
27:30It's making them feel more isolated. But
27:32what if they they want to they've got
27:33their own career, they've got their own
27:35passions, there are things that they
27:37love doing and that means that they have
27:38to be working in a major city or they
27:41have to be traveling
27:43to pursue those things?
27:44You just said it. What if they have
27:48passions? What if they have a career?
27:51The problem is children do best in
27:53extended family situations. So, you
27:56know, you can have a fabulous career and
27:58move far away from your family and when
28:00you're young and single and I even call
28:02it single when you're married, but don't
28:04have children, you're still really
28:05single. Um, you know what I say to
28:08parents is that
28:10your life won't be so fabulous if you
28:12have children and you're not present for
28:15them
28:16physically and emotionally, particularly
28:18in the early years, because what happens
28:20is they break down and the expression
28:22goes that a parent is only as happy as
28:26their least happy child.
28:28And so, there is no fabulous life if
28:31your children are breaking down and
28:33that's what families are learning
28:35is that, you know, all of that freedom
28:38and all that fabulous me time comes at a
28:42cost if you have children.
28:44So, one would say then, well, I'll just
28:46not have children then.
28:47And that would be fine. And so, there
28:50are a lot of people that are saying
28:51today, I don't see the value in being
28:55responsible for another human being. And
28:57what they're missing out on is the deep
29:00and rewarding emotional connection to
29:03your children. It's a love like no other
29:06love. But if you've had
29:10if you've had trauma as a child, if
29:12you've had parents who were narcissistic
29:15or resented parenting or
29:18uh you know, were distracted or mentally
29:22ill, you know, you
29:24may already have had that trauma that
29:28that implies that later it's harder to
29:31connect, right? So, those attachment
29:33disorders that I was referring to
29:35earlier. There's three kinds of
29:37attachment disorders. There's the
29:39avoidant attachment disorder. So, what
29:41does that mean? So, a healthy attachment
29:43looks like this.
29:45Um when you return home, your child
29:48feels so securely attached to you.
29:51Meaning, you've gone out for an hour or
29:53two for dinner with your spouse. You
29:56come home and your baby is happy to see
29:59you and the reunion, what we call the
30:01reunion, is a beautiful reunion. The
30:04baby is joyful and happy and you know,
30:07that's healthy attachment. It means that
30:08you've made your baby feel so safe and
30:10secure because you are there primarily
30:13and have prioritized them the majority
30:14of the time as the primary attachment
30:17figure. That when you come home, your
30:19baby welcomes it.
30:21But what we're seeing is more and more
30:23children developing attachment disorders
30:25because their parents are
30:27pushing the limits of how much they can
30:30leave those babies and putting them in
30:32things like institutional care and
30:34leaving them for long hours at a time
30:36and traveling for their fabulous careers
30:39and their fabulous lives at ages when
30:41babies really can't tolerate that kind
30:44of separation.
30:45When a parent comes when the primary
30:47attachment figure, usually the mother,
30:49comes home and the baby turns away from
30:52you and turns toward the babysitter or
30:56just turns away.
30:57That baby has the beginning of what's
30:59called an avoidant attachment disorder.
31:01Now, that's correlated later on
31:04with things like depression and
31:07difficulty forming attachments later on.
31:11The next kind of attachment disorder is
31:14called an ambivalent attachment disorder
31:16and the mother then comes home
31:19and the baby clings to the mother for
31:21dear life because the internal voice in
31:24that baby is my mommy's going to leave
31:26me again. So, I have to hold on to her.
31:28Now, that baby is fractious and can't be
31:30soothed and will not let go of that
31:33mother, you know, holding on for dear
31:35life. What I call like the rhesus
31:37monkeys did to the wire cages, right?
31:40And that's correlated later on with
31:42anxiety in youth.
31:47The disorganized attachment disorder is
31:49different than the other two in that the
31:51other two have a strategy. So, think of
31:54an attachment disorder as a strategy. A
31:56child who's left for too many hours by
31:58their parent or whose parent is
32:00physically present but emotionally
32:02checked out. That baby has to cope, has
32:05to have a strategy.
32:07Turning away from the mother is a
32:08strategy and the internal narrative is
32:10my mommy isn't present for me, can't
32:13isn't isn't here for me, won't won't be
32:15there for me. I can't trust my
32:16environment. And that baby says, "And
32:19I'm going to have to
32:20cope on my own."
32:22What we call learned helplessness.
32:24Um the ambivalent attachment disorder,
32:28you know, that baby is the strategy is,
32:31you know, I'm going to hold on because
32:33if I don't hold on, she's going to leave
32:34again.
32:36Disorganized attachment disorder is the
32:38hardest to treat um
32:40because the baby has no strategy. So,
32:42the baby cycles through many strategies.
32:45The baby will go from clinging to
32:48avoiding to being enraged and even to
32:51slapping or hitting the mother and then
32:53cycling through again. Um and that baby
32:56that develops a disorganized attachment
32:59disorder, those are more Those babies
33:01it's correlated later with borderline
33:03personality disorder. And we're seeing a
33:05huge rise in borderline personality
33:08disorders. And those are the kids who
33:10are cutting themselves, who are trying
33:11to commit suicide.
33:14Um we have a a mental illness crisis the
33:17likes of which we've never seen in
33:19history. And it has everything to do
33:22with how we're raising our children. You
33:24seem pissed off under that calm
33:25demeanor. Pissed off?
33:27Yes, I suppose I am. I'm not pissed off
33:30at the people. I'm pissed off at a
33:32society that is lying. We're not really
33:36educating or telling parents the truth.
33:40So, there's four attachment disorders.
33:43Avoidant, secure, ambivalent,
33:45disorganized.
33:46Well, one secure isn't a disorder. So,
33:48there's secure and then there's three
33:50attachment disorders. Yeah.
33:51Avoidant, ambivalent, disorganized.
33:53Yes.
33:54How does that manifest when you're an
33:55adult? So, how would I know cuz you
33:58know, I can relate to some of these and
33:59I'm wondering how that would then
34:00manifest in my relationships in my life
34:02as an adult.
34:03Outside of the obvious mental health,
34:05you know, situations. So, avoidant An
34:08avoidant attachment disorder would be
34:10someone who um
34:12can't form meaningful and deep
34:15connections, can't
34:17commit, has difficulty committing, has
34:19difficulty trusting
34:21in the intimacy and the the depth of
34:24intimacy in a relationship. An
34:27ambivalent attachment disorder would
34:29would be someone who's highly highly
34:31anxious.
34:33Um someone who clings to you, uh calls
34:36you, maybe uh a woman you dated in the
34:39past who called you five times a day to
34:41check on you, was worried that you'd be
34:43the little fish that swam away.
34:45Um and suffocate. They suffocate the
34:47people they love because they're afraid
34:49to let go.
34:50Um disorganized attachment, borderline
34:53personality disorders, they tend to be
34:55very emotionally volatile.
34:58Um there's a lot of anger there, and um
35:01and there's a lot of self-harm,
35:03self-harming behavior there.
35:05Do they end up
35:07attracting
35:09a certain attachment style? So, if I'm
35:11an avoidant, do I then end up attracting
35:13avoidants, or do I
35:14is there any research on that, on how we
35:16then date? I'm guessing secures go for
35:18secures. Yeah, secures Well, if you're
35:21healthy, you're attracted to
35:22reciprocally healthy relationships, and
35:24you trust your environment, so you trust
35:26in loving relationships, and um
35:30avoidants sometimes are attracted to
35:32avoidant
35:34people because there's no conflict
35:36there. So, in other words, someone who
35:38can't commit with someone also who can't
35:40commit.
35:41Um that can break down, though, at some
35:43point. So, remember that these are
35:45pathological defenses. So, you know, we
35:48use the word defense because it means to
35:49protect one, right?
35:52And and defenses help us until they no
35:54longer help us. And so, we say
35:56attachment disorders are pathological
35:58defenses, meaning they don't usually
36:01last a lifetime, they break down at some
36:04point.
36:05And so, you might be with another
36:07avoidant attachment disordered person,
36:10but at some point one of you breaks
36:13down, and then realizes that you need
36:15the other.
36:16And then,
36:18you know, then you're with in a
36:19relationship with someone who can't give
36:20back. So, yeah, as we say, like levels
36:24of water meet. So, people will be
36:26attracted to one another often of the
36:28same ilk, but but it isn't necessarily a
36:32healthy relationship.
36:34And of all these four attachment styles,
36:36who do you think which attachment style
36:38from in your opinion and then from your
36:39observations and the people that you've
36:41seen is most likely to have a successful
36:44and then also unsuccessful relationship?
36:47Oh, well, secure attachment will have
36:50a successful I mean, secure people with
36:52secure attachment will be drawn to
36:55healthy, reciprocal, loving
36:58um deep connections because they've had
37:01a deep and loving connection with their
37:03mother. So, remember I said that you
37:05it's only after 3 years of age that you
37:07internalize the feeling of security.
37:10And where you internalize the feeling
37:12that the world
37:14is a safe place and you can trust the
37:16people in it. And you can trust to love
37:19another person.
37:21And so, you know, we we throw that word
37:23trust around, but we don't realize that
37:25it comes from the very beginnings of our
37:27development.
37:29When we don't trust others,
37:31it's generally because we couldn't trust
37:34those that we were to depend upon when
37:37we were
37:38at our most vulnerable stage. And what
37:40about the other the alternative? So, if
37:43which of these attachment styles is
37:44least likely to have
37:46successful relationships and
37:48That's disorganized, yeah. They have a
37:50very hard time forming relationships,
37:52holding on to relationships, um
37:55Yeah, I would say it's it's they're the
37:57most complicated to treat and they're
38:00also the most complicated in terms of,
38:03you know, being able to have successful
38:05relationships in the future.
38:07Uh I was wondering as you were speaking
38:09whether if I have more kids, so if I
38:11have 10 young kids Yeah. is there a
38:13higher probability that of neglect in
38:15those kids because I do if if I'm a
38:17mother, I just don't have time for
38:19all of these kids at the same time. They
38:21can't all be on my chest at the same
38:22time. Yeah, it's it's a good question.
38:24Well, there's something in the
38:25developing world called maternal
38:27depletion syndrome, which is that
38:28mothers can actually die in the
38:30developing world of having too many
38:31children in too short a period of time.
38:34Uh they get depleted physically, but
38:36they also get depleted emotionally.
38:38I'm going to say it right now so
38:39everybody can hear it who's watching
38:41this. Having children
38:43is stressful.
38:44It is frustrating.
38:47It does require that you are sleepless
38:49for the first 5 years. It requires that
38:52you can tolerate a lot of discomfort and
38:54frustration.
38:56So, if there was a job description,
38:58first it would say the most joyful
39:02uh enriching
39:04thing you can do in your entire life.
39:06But, what comes with that to foster
39:10healthy development is frustration, lack
39:12of sleep, stress, uh discomfort. And so,
39:17that should be part of the job
39:18description.
39:20Yeah, it seems to be such an important
39:22principle for life generally that
39:24everything has an
39:25a trade-off. And I think it was Einstein
39:27that said uh for every force there's
39:29like an equal and opposite counterforce
39:31or something to to to that effect. And a
39:33lot of people are
39:35choosing not to make the decision to
39:37have kids. I was looking at some stats
39:38around this. The European Union
39:40witnessed only 3.8 million births in
39:422022, nearly half the number recorded
39:46six decades ago,
39:47marking one of the lowest birth rates in
39:49history.
39:50France, for example, known for its
39:52robust family policies
39:53has seen a decrease from 830,000
39:57children born in 2010 to just 670,000
40:01in 2023, the lowest since World War II.
40:05And this is a huge global trend across
40:08especially countries that have a lot of
40:09money. It is. So, I speak at a big
40:12conference called the Alliance for
40:13Responsible Citizenship, and they talk
40:15about a lot of these alarming dropping
40:19birth rates. The truth is though that
40:22as countries become more developed birth
40:25rates do decline to a certain degree.
40:27That has to do with economics some of
40:29it. But there's a trend that's happening
40:31that's worse than this which is people
40:34it's not that they're having less
40:36children which actually you know,
40:38everybody has their own limits in terms
40:42of their capacity to give and to love
40:45and so for some people maybe one child
40:47is enough. For other people five
40:49children isn't enough meaning they have
40:51so much inside of them to give, right?
40:54But the alarming thing for me isn't the
40:58dropping birth rates due to economics,
41:00you know, so maybe people aren't having
41:0210 children like they used to they're
41:04having three children or two children,
41:07right?
41:08The alarming thing for me is that people
41:11are not having children.
41:13That's more alarming to me because
41:15that's more a sign not of a country
41:18developing
41:19but of a country and a society of a
41:22modern society which does not see the
41:25value
41:27in
41:28in raising children and having deep and
41:32loving relationships be a priority
41:35in your life.
41:37Those people would say I have deep and
41:38loving relationships with my partner,
41:40with my dog, with my uncle, auntie,
41:42friends, etc. It's different and why is
41:46it different? It's a good question. It's
41:47different because
41:49in the end your relationship with your
41:51partner or with your auntie or with your
41:54dog isn't the same
41:56level of dependency. The ability to care
42:00for another human being
42:02to allow another human being to be
42:05dependent on you to devote to that human
42:08being
42:09is a growing transforming experience for
42:12human beings. One would say that
42:15not sure I completely buy this fully
42:18because but Jordan Peterson I think has
42:21said, I think it was Jordan who said
42:22that you can't fully become an adult
42:26if you don't have a child. Now, I'm not
42:28sure I would go that far because there's
42:29some people who can't have children. But
42:32I do think that there is something
42:35in terms of developmentally on an adult
42:37development level
42:39that transforms you, that is meant to
42:43to transform you in being generative and
42:45having children. Again, it's not for
42:47everyone and I do say this that um
42:51I'm not part of the pro-natality
42:53movement where I say everybody should
42:55have children. I don't think everybody
42:57should have children.
42:58But I do think that if you're going to
43:00have children
43:02then you need to look deeply at your own
43:07upbringing and your own losses and your
43:09own early traumas before you bring them
43:12into this world so you can repair
43:15whatever it is you need to repair and
43:17not uh create what we call generational
43:21expression of things like attachment
43:23disorders and mental illness and
43:25Cuz a lot of people are struggling now
43:27to have kids, even those that want to.
43:28Yeah. Um I was looking at some stats and
43:30there's a global prevalence of
43:31infertility.
43:33Approximately 18% of adults worldwide,
43:36about one in six has experienced
43:37infertility at some point in their
43:38lives. Yeah. Between 2015 and 2019,
43:42about roughly 15% of US women aged 15 to
43:4549 experienced impaired fertility and in
43:47the UK, research indicates that one in
43:49eight women listening to this now and
43:51one in 10 men aged 16 to 74 have
43:54experienced infertility, which is
43:55defined as unsuccessfully attempting
43:57pregnancy for a year or longer.
44:01And I've spoken to a lot of people
44:02actually that have tried to have kids.
44:04Yeah. For years, two years.
44:06It's very sad when want children and
44:08they can't have children. It is
44:10incredibly sad. When you think about
44:12what's contributing to that, what how do
44:14you diagnose that infertility challenge?
44:16There are a lot of theories. Some are
44:18environmental. Some are the fact that
44:20we're delaying having children. We're
44:22lying to women.
44:24And to men. We're telling them, "Freeze
44:26your eggs." In fact, this is a little
44:28disturbing. I'll tell you about this.
44:31That law firms now are um
44:34paying for the freezing of their young
44:36female associates' eggs.
44:39I find that disturbing.
44:41Um saying, "Freeze your eggs. Work
44:44really hard for us. Yeah, you can have
44:46children later." And the truth is a lot
44:50of them can't. Because when you freeze
44:52eggs, it's not a guarantee of fertility.
44:56It's not a guarantee that those eggs
44:57will turn into embryos. It's not a
44:59guarantee that those embryos will turn
45:01into babies. So, there's the age piece.
45:04Um There is also and there's the
45:07environmental piece. There is also the
45:08stress piece, which we are not talking
45:11about. Um there's a component to getting
45:14pregnant that is about stress. We have
45:17more stress
45:19on both men and women. You know, it used
45:21to be that men died sooner because they
45:23had more stress. But now I think it's
45:25evened out the odds. I think women may
45:26die sooner because they have the stress
45:29of working and raising children for the
45:31most part. Um but the point is that that
45:34uh
45:35the stress that
45:37young adults face because they're trying
45:40to you know,
45:42we should talk about some of the other
45:43myths. What's another myth? We'll weave
45:45it through this talk. Another myth is
45:48you can do everything all at the same
45:51time and do it well.
45:53Myth. That's a big myth. You can't.
45:56You can't have a fabulous career
46:00working full-time and traveling and
46:02being fabulous and raise healthy
46:05children. The good news is life is long.
46:08You may live till 120 like Moses and I
46:12think of your generation, you're younger
46:13than me, but um
46:15I think you probably will live well over
46:17100. Um and so what that means is you
46:20have many, many, many, many, many, many
46:24years to have a fabulous career when
46:26your children don't need you so much,
46:28but you have a very small window
46:31to create that emotional security for
46:35your children that will be the core of
46:37them. You know, we talk a lot about your
46:38physical core and core training.
46:41This is your emotional core.
46:43This is the emotional core of human
46:46beings, attachment security and a
46:48feeling of safety that you can rely on
46:51the people who you need most in the
46:54world to be there when you need them.
46:57That is your emotional core.
46:59How did you manage? You're a mother of
47:01three. You've raised three very
47:03wonderful, well-adjusted children. Yeah.
47:05But you're also successful. Yep. You
47:07have books. You you're you're traveling
47:09around the world, you said.
47:11So I'm a good example.
47:12Um I had a career when I was in my 20s.
47:16Um
47:18and I got married when I was
47:22I met my husband when I was 27 and I got
47:25married when I was just shy of 30 or I
47:27was 30.
47:28Um and then we had children in our 30s.
47:33Uh so before we had children, I was
47:35working I was seeing something like 40
47:37hours of patients a week.
47:40And I was working into the wee hours of
47:42the night. I would work till 11:00 at
47:43night coming home exhausted.
47:46Then we had children, but it was an
47:47agreement that we had that when we had
47:49babies, I would take a good long period
47:52off
47:53and then really go back very, very, very
47:56minimally. And I had the kind of career
47:58by choice
48:00that I could have control over and be it
48:03could be flexible and I could control
48:05it.
48:06And so, I took 6 months off with each
48:09child.
48:10And then after 6 months, only went back
48:13to work an hour and a half a day, 5 days
48:15a week.
48:17So, just we had an agreement, my husband
48:19and I, which is it would be just enough
48:21to pay a mother's helper, a nanny.
48:23And so, and we did without in those
48:26years. We did you know, second homes. We
48:29did without fancy clothes. We did
48:31without
48:32the other things that many of our peers
48:34were getting and traveling
48:38and doing. We said, "What's important to
48:41us is that we pair down, not expand now.
48:44This is We're expanding as parents, so
48:47we want to pair down materially. Life is
48:50long and you can have a successful
48:52career." Some of the women that I
48:53interview for my book
48:55are women who didn't even start their
48:57careers until they were in their 40s
49:00after they had children that were older.
49:03Could it have worked if your husband
49:05stayed home instead of you?
49:06In your view? Because I'm trying to
49:08understand if you're saying that dads
49:09don't need to be as there, present as
49:12much as the mother.
49:14They have to be there in a different
49:15way.
49:17In the early days, men don't breastfeed.
49:20So, that's the first thing. Unless you
49:21can show me a man who has grown breasts
49:23and can actually breastfeed, maybe it's
49:25coming. I don't know.
49:27But for now,
49:29um women's bodies connect them to their
49:32babies. They connect them through birth.
49:34They connect them through breastfeeding.
49:37There is a physical component and a
49:39hormonal component to infancy and
49:42motherhood. And there really is a
49:44difference in the way that mothers
49:46respond to babies and fathers respond to
49:49babies. Now,
49:51when do fathers become really important?
49:54It's not that the father isn't important
49:56to give the mother a break or to bond
49:59with the baby or to bathe the baby, but
50:02what that baby needs is that attachment
50:05security to that primary attachment
50:07figure. So, the mother. Usually the
50:09mother. Sometimes it's the father, but
50:11usually the mother. Fathers with their
50:13playful tactile stimulation,
50:16they become really important when
50:18children become mobile.
50:20When children start to crawl and toddle,
50:23when they're around 18 months to 2 years
50:26old, fathers become incredibly exciting.
50:31And they're really important. So, when
50:32fathers aren't around in those days,
50:35when children are starting to explore
50:37the world, those children have a harder
50:39time separating from mothers. So, it's
50:42really important to have what we say,
50:43the yin and the yang. What we are doing
50:46now is we are
50:48um not prioritizing attachment security,
50:52which is the foundation for then healthy
50:54separation. And when healthy separation
50:57starts, fathers are critical.
51:00When you have another child, a second
51:02child, fathers are critical because
51:04fathers seduce the older child. They
51:07say, "Come on, let's go out and play.
51:08Let's go kick the soccer ball. Let's go
51:10to the swing set." And they give a space
51:12to the mother with the next baby. They
51:15help the older children to grow up.
51:18Earlier on, you mentioned a study that I
51:19read about when I was studying
51:21psychology once upon a time, which is
51:22the rhesus the rhesus monkey study with
51:25the wire mother. For anybody that's
51:27never heard about that study, I think
51:28it's quite important to understand the
51:29profound impact that
51:31touch and um
51:33Well, that was an attachment study.
51:35Yeah, what was it what's the what's
51:36touch called from a in a sci- in a
51:38science world? Skin-to-skin.
51:39Skin-to-skin.
51:41Can you give me an overview of that
51:43study and what it showed for people that
51:44aren't aware of it?
51:45Well, they took these baby rhesus
51:47monkeys and they they let some be with
51:50the mothers and the mothers nurtured
51:52those babies and those babies became
51:55healthily attached and secure and those
51:58were the healthy emotionally healthy
52:00babies.
52:01Then they gave um another subset of
52:04monkeys um
52:07a wire mother covered with a piece of
52:10cloth or fur or something.
52:13And those babies became very neurotic,
52:16but at least they were clinging. They
52:18became like the ambivalent attachment
52:19babies because there was no response
52:21from the mother, but at least they were
52:22holding on to this mother.
52:24And then they gave and these babies
52:26became very neurotic and then they gave
52:28this subset of babies nothing.
52:32And those babies literally lost their
52:34minds.
52:36And um
52:37I mean, there are other studies which
52:39are more recent than that. That's quite
52:41an old study. There There is a
52:42researcher named Michael Meany. He did a
52:45study on licking and grooming. Animals
52:47who lick and groom their young, meaning
52:49are nurturing skin-to-skin, lick and
52:51groom.
52:52Uh in human terms, that would be
52:53holding, touching, loving, skin-to-skin.
52:57Those uh if if a mother licked and
53:00groomed her young,
53:02that baby would become more resilient to
53:05stress in the future.
53:07The babies who were not licked and
53:08groomed by their mothers
53:10become became less resilient to stress
53:12in the future. In addition, the babies
53:15who were more resilient to stress
53:17because their mothers had licked and
53:19groomed them passed down generationally
53:21the ability to lick and groom the next
53:23generation.
53:25What happened to the babies who weren't
53:27licked and groomed? Guess what happened?
53:29They didn't pass it down. Right. And
53:31that's what's happening to humans today.
53:35If we don't lick and groom our babies, I
53:37mean, you know, take it for whatever.
53:40Um if we don't lick and groom our
53:42babies, it we don't pass on resilience
53:46to stress and adversity, but we also
53:48don't pass on the desire to lick and
53:50groom your to have babies.
53:52Your story going back to your story
53:53which we're talking about, are there any
53:55areas of privilege that you need to
53:57acknowledge that someone else listening
53:59to this now goes, "Yeah, but that's a
54:00right for you." Because
54:02you know, maybe someone who didn't have
54:04a partner there
54:05or someone who
54:08is in a
54:10difficult economic situation extremely
54:13difficult economic situation living in
54:15the projects in Harlem or something. I
54:19really want to I'm saying this because
54:21Well, it's not the mothers in the
54:22projects in Harlem cuz I'll tell you the
54:24mothers in the projects in Harlem
54:26stay home with their babies. That's
54:28what's interesting. Very poor people in
54:30America.
54:32So, let me just say
54:33I love America. America sucks.
54:36And I'll tell you why America sucks from
54:37my perspective. And I say this
54:39internationally. I go around the world
54:40saying, "America sucks." And I'm going
54:43to tell you why.
54:44Um, we are the only country in the world
54:47other than Papua New Guinea who does not
54:48have a paid
54:50parental maternity leave.
54:52We do not have paid maternity leave.
54:55Nobody cares about children.
54:57They care about the GDP and the bottom
55:00line. And the people who are out there
55:01talking about this stuff are economists
55:04saying, "Women have to work work work
55:06for the economy." Nobody cares about
55:08children. Because if we cared about
55:10children
55:11our tax money would be
55:14in paid leave. Not for 3 months. Not for
55:176 months. For at least a year. In
55:19Hungary they have 3 years. Slovenia,
55:22Slovakia,
55:24uh, Estonia has 3 years. Hungary I think
55:26has 2 years of paid leave. Sweden, I
55:29have some issues with Sweden, but Sweden
55:31has 14 months.
55:32Sweden after 14 months makes women go
55:35back to work full full full time and put
55:36them in institutional care and all those
55:38babies are breaking down.
55:40So, 14 months isn't even enough. So, but
55:43if we could even get to a civilized
55:45place of 1 year of paid leave in this
55:47country
55:49and then the next 2 years some way that
55:52parents could be
55:54complemented so they could work
55:56part-time, supplemented so they could
55:58work part-time.
55:59Um you know, I'm a I'm a reasonable,
56:02realistic person. I know this country is
56:04never going to go for 3 years of paid
56:06leave even though I would love them to.
56:08I also know that this country isn't
56:10going to go for an entitlement called
56:12paid leave because that's the kind of
56:14country we are. We talk a big game, but
56:15we don't want to put our money where our
56:16mouth is.
56:18There is the possibility, now that the
56:20Republicans are in
56:22of a creative solution
56:25which is potentially using things like
56:28social security in advance, borrowing
56:31from your social security. So, I'm a mom
56:35and I say, "Ah, to stay home, I can
56:38borrow from my social security for a
56:41year
56:42and then work a year or two longer
56:46in my life." Wouldn't you say that most
56:48women who wanted to stay home with their
56:50babies would say, "I'll work longer so I
56:52can stay home with my baby." There are
56:54ways to creatively deal with it. Um
56:57from my perspective, this is what's
56:58going on. People on the left will not
57:01compromise. They'll only do an
57:04entitlement called paid leave, but they
57:05only are asking for it for 3 to 6
57:07months. After that, they want women back
57:10in the workforce and institutional
57:11daycare. So, I'm not on the left.
57:14Um people on the right talk a lot about
57:16family. They're the party of the family
57:18now. But they do not want tax dollars to
57:21go into paid leave. They They don't like
57:23the entitlements that already exist and
57:25they don't want to add any more.
57:26And so, the only way they're going to
57:28give it to women and men is if
57:31they put skin in the game. Mhm.
57:33This is the country we live in. Again,
57:35I'm a realist.
57:37I think in any way that we can give
57:40families the choice to care for their
57:43own children, particularly in the early
57:45years, we will create a population
57:48of healthier children. How do we know
57:51that more paid leave equals better
57:53children, less strain on the health care
57:56system in terms of mental health,
57:57mortality, whatever it might be? How do
57:59you make a statistical or a scientific
58:01research-backed case that if we had 3
58:04years of paid leave in the United States
58:06or in the UK, or Australia, Canada,
58:08wherever, that the it would be a net
58:10positive for society outside of it just
58:12being an opinion?
58:14Well, the research shows the
58:16longitudinal attachment research shows
58:18that children who are insecurely
58:20attached at 12 months of age, 20 years
58:23later are insecurely 80% of them are are
58:26insecurely attached and suffer from
58:28mental disorders.
58:31That's what the longitudinal attachment
58:32research says. So, we now have decades
58:37of
58:38basically children were followed from
58:40when they were infants. And the ones who
58:42were securely attached, 20 years later
58:44are still securely attached and doing
58:46great. And the ones who were insecurely
58:47attached, most still insecurely attached
58:51and it's tied and correlated to all of
58:53these mental illness conditions, right?
58:55So, there's a lot of research to show
58:57what attachment security does for
58:59children in the long run.
59:01So, you know, you're asking a question
59:04about
59:05I mean, I suppose you could take your
59:07paid leave and go play
59:10soccer in the park and go play tennis
59:12and I don't know, like play cards with
59:14your friend I mean, you know,
59:15how can I say how people are going to
59:17use their paid leave? But if your paid
59:19leave is being used to be home with your
59:21child, then it's going to benefit your
59:23child.
59:24So many of the the guests that I speak
59:25to on this podcast, especially those
59:27that become incredibly successful um
59:30athletes, entrepreneurs, whoever.
59:33They often have some form of neglect in
59:35their past. Mhm. Richard Williams,
59:37Serena and Venus Williams' father, he um
59:40he was very intense with them from a
59:42very young age and he's raised two of
59:44the greatest tennis players in history.
59:45Joe Jackson was strict and off- often
59:47controversial with Michael, who went on
59:49to become the King of Pop. Earl Woods,
59:51who was Tiger Woods' father, was very um
59:55intense in his coaching and mentoring
59:56style, which led him to become great and
59:58obviously Beyoncé is the other example I
1:00:00gave, who Matthew managed Matthew, which
1:00:02is uh Matthew and Tina, who were parents
1:00:05to Beyoncé, managed Destiny's Child and
1:00:07Beyoncé's solo career, meticulously
1:00:09shaping them into a global superstar.
1:00:10So, parents think, you know, I want to
1:00:13raise
1:00:14kids that are superstars. I I want I
1:00:16want my kids to be great.
1:00:18I'm going to say right now, I don't
1:00:20recommend that as a professional. Okay.
1:00:23I'm just saying. So, I can't comment on
1:00:26a lot of those people because I could
1:00:27get in a lot of trouble for commenting
1:00:28on a lot of those people, but I will say
1:00:30that amongst those people,
1:00:32there
1:00:34is controversy, meaning
1:00:37at least one of those parents, and I
1:00:39don't know the history of the others,
1:00:41was abusive. And so, you could say that
1:00:43narcissism
1:00:45is abusive to children. When we project
1:00:48our needs and desires and likes
1:00:53and who we are onto our children, we're
1:00:55not letting them authentically be
1:00:57themselves. The greatest gift you can
1:00:59give your child is to see your child as
1:01:02an authentic individual
1:01:05who is
1:01:06an individual and themselves
1:01:09and not to see them as a mini-me.
1:01:11Um when you start architecting their
1:01:15life, there's a good chance you're going
1:01:17to lose that child emotionally at some
1:01:19point. They're either going to hate you,
1:01:22they're They may be successful in their
1:01:24careers. They may have terrible personal
1:01:27lives. They may be narcissistic parents
1:01:30themselves. So,
1:01:31I don't recommend that school of
1:01:34thought. What I do recommend is if your
1:01:36child shows promise in something that
1:01:39they also seem to love and have a drive
1:01:43to be good at, then you can support that
1:01:46drive. Just make sure to keep yourself
1:01:48in check along the way to make sure that
1:01:51they are driving it,
1:01:53not you.
1:01:55Health is a huge focus for me in 2025,
1:01:57and I'm not just talking about eating
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1:03:00ADHD. Yeah. Okay. I don't feel like I
1:03:04don't even have to ask a question here,
1:03:05but just to set the stage, the reason
1:03:07why I'm so compelled by this is just
1:03:09this
1:03:10I have to say it, the shocking rise in
1:03:13diagnosis and prescriptions over the
1:03:15last
1:03:1610 years. Uh between 20 2000 and 2018,
1:03:20ADHD diagnoses in the UK rose
1:03:23approximately 20-fold.
1:03:25Yes.
1:03:26Among boys aged 10 to 16, diagnosis
1:03:28increased from 1% roughly to um about
1:03:303.5% in 2018.
1:03:33And in men aged 18 to 29, there was a
1:03:35nearly 50-fold increase in ADHD
1:03:38prescriptions during the same period.
1:03:40And the same applies to the United
1:03:41States, where an estimated 15.5 million
1:03:43adults in the US have been diagnosed
1:03:45with ADHD. Approximately one in nine US
1:03:49children have been diagnosed with ADHD
1:03:51at some point, with 10.5% having a
1:03:54current diagnosis. It
1:03:56I don't know where ADHD was, but the
1:03:58conversation around it, the
1:03:59prescriptions, the diagnosis seem to
1:04:01have really surged into culture in a
1:04:03really, really big way.
1:04:05What's going on?
1:04:06So, ADHD was one of the factors that
1:04:08drove me to write Write Being There, um
1:04:11because I was seeing this huge uptick in
1:04:13ADHD diagnosis and children being
1:04:15medicated so, so early. Do you know what
1:04:18the fight or flight reaction is? That's
1:04:20when the
1:04:22sympathetic nervous system
1:04:24starts to kick into action and Yes. So,
1:04:28well, it's basically our evolutionary
1:04:30response to uh predatory threat. So, if
1:04:34a saber-tooth tiger was chasing you,
1:04:38you either stood and fought,
1:04:40fight,
1:04:42or you ran for your life, flight.
1:04:46So, when our children are under stress,
1:04:50they go into
1:04:51fight
1:04:52or flight.
1:04:54So, one of the first signs that a child
1:04:57is under stress that they cannot manage
1:05:00is when they become aggressive in
1:05:02school. They hit, they bite, they throw
1:05:05chairs.
1:05:06Um they have trouble,
1:05:09you know, socially in
1:05:12daycare or preschool or even in school.
1:05:16Or they become distracted, which is the
1:05:19flight part of fight or flight.
1:05:22So, what's happening is their nervous
1:05:24systems, the stress regulating part of
1:05:26their brain is getting turned on. So, we
1:05:29say that the stress regulating part of
1:05:31their brain has to do with a little
1:05:33almond-shaped part of the brain called
1:05:35the amygdala. It's a very primitive part
1:05:36of the brain, very old part of the
1:05:38brain.
1:05:39And it regulates stress throughout our
1:05:41lives. It helps us to manage it.
1:05:44What we know is that part of the brain
1:05:45is supposed to remain offline
1:05:48for the first year to 3 years, which is
1:05:51why mothers wear babies on their bodies.
1:05:53It's why babies stay close to their
1:05:56mothers in the first 3 years
1:05:58to keep the amygdala quiet and only
1:06:02incrementally incrementally expose
1:06:04children to stress and frustration that
1:06:07they can manage. So, imagine taking
1:06:09small bites of it so you can digest it,
1:06:12right?
1:06:13And your mother's there to help you
1:06:14digest the stress.
1:06:16What we're doing now by separating
1:06:19mothers and babies, by putting babies
1:06:21into day care with strangers,
1:06:24um is by sleep training babies, all
1:06:26these weird things that we're doing to
1:06:28babies is we're turning the amygdala on.
1:06:32We're making it active precociously, too
1:06:35early. What happens when the amygdala is
1:06:38activated too early is it becomes very
1:06:41active and very large very quickly.
1:06:44The problem is then it shrivels up and
1:06:47burns out also
1:06:50because
1:06:51it cannot manage that kind of stress so
1:06:53early. When it ceases to be functional,
1:06:56it ceases to be functional for a
1:06:58lifetime.
1:07:00And so, it's very important to protect
1:07:03you know, what's the expression? The
1:07:04family jewels. It's very These are the
1:07:07family jewels in the brain of a baby.
1:07:09This is the jewel, the amygdala. You
1:07:11want to keep the stress to a an absolute
1:07:14minimum in the first year, which is why
1:07:16sleep training is dangerous.
1:07:18It's why letting babies cry it out, it's
1:07:21why putting babies into daycare, it's
1:07:22why leaving babies for hours on end when
1:07:25they're so so very fragile
1:07:28um is so bad for their brains because it
1:07:31gets the cortisol flowing, which is the
1:07:33stress hormone, but it makes this part
1:07:35of the brain very active, so it grows
1:07:37grows grows and then pff
1:07:39and ceases to be functional in the
1:07:41future.
1:07:42Like a PTSD response.
1:07:45So, what we know is that these children
1:07:47are in hypervigilant
1:07:49states of stress. ADHD children
1:07:52ADHD children. Hypervigilant states of
1:07:55stress.
1:07:56If you stay in a hypervigilant state of
1:07:59stress long enough, you go into a
1:08:01hypovigilant
1:08:03state of stress, which then causes
1:08:05depression.
1:08:07So, what we have now are not disorders.
1:08:10So, there was a whole movement to take
1:08:13the D off of ADHD
1:08:16cuz it's not a disorder.
1:08:18It is a stress response. And instead of
1:08:21asking the right questions, which are,
1:08:23"Okay, what's causing the stress? How do
1:08:26we make sure that our children are not
1:08:28exposed to this kind of stress because
1:08:30they're going into fight or flight?"
1:08:32So, the nervous system, as you said, the
1:08:34brain has an on switch and an off
1:08:37switch. The on switch to stress is the
1:08:40amygdala, the hippocampus is the off
1:08:41switch. And you'd say the stress
1:08:44response is in a negative feedback loop.
1:08:47It's it's it's actually important. Like,
1:08:49in other words, if a saber-tooth tiger
1:08:51is chasing you, very important that you
1:08:53can activate, right? Run or fight.
1:08:55So,
1:08:56the stress response is supposed to be
1:08:58short term.
1:09:00It's supposed to be not It's supposed to
1:09:01be acute rather than chronic. So, we can
1:09:05kind of manifest it. We can
1:09:07activate it. But then it's supposed to
1:09:10be turned off by the turn off switch,
1:09:12the hippocampus. What we're seeing in
1:09:13children's brains is that the amygdala
1:09:17is growing very precociously large and
1:09:20the hippocampus, which is the off
1:09:21switch, is very small.
1:09:24So, we have this problem. As we say,
1:09:26Houston, we have a problem. We have an
1:09:28on switch going full speed, gas no
1:09:31brakes, and no off switch. And that's
1:09:33causing ADHD, behavioral problems that
1:09:37are
1:09:39hugely rising in children in school. A
1:09:42lot of aggression and violence. And so,
1:09:44that's what's happening. This is a
1:09:46stress response. And again, instead of
1:09:48asking the right questions like, where
1:09:51is this coming from? What's causing the
1:09:52stress? Instead, we silence the
1:09:55children's pain. We tell we tell
1:09:57parents, we'll medicate it and we'll
1:09:59just relieve the symptoms.
1:10:01For me, that's malpractice. The way we
1:10:03treat ADHD is malpractice. A child
1:10:07develops
1:10:08goes into fight or flight when they are
1:10:11under stress. It could be psychosocial
1:10:13stressors at home, in the family. It
1:10:16could be at school. It could be with
1:10:17their friends. It could be a learning
1:10:20disability. There's so many things that
1:10:22can cause kids stress. So, instead of
1:10:24medicating them, why don't we figure out
1:10:27what's happening to that child deeply
1:10:29that's causing them to go into fight or
1:10:31flight.
1:10:32Isn't that point of view? I have two
1:10:33questions here. The first is, how do you
1:10:36know that it's stress? And the second
1:10:38is, if it is stress, then that the
1:10:40problem or at least the inconvenient
1:10:42truth that that then creates is that the
1:10:45parent is responsible.
1:10:47Yes. That's the There's the inconvenient
1:10:49truth. For their child's ADHD.
1:10:51Yes. Yes. That's the inconvenient truth.
1:10:54It's not so simple. Sometimes it's the
1:10:57families. Usually, it's the family,
1:11:00particularly with small children. But,
1:11:01when children get to school,
1:11:03it could be social. As I said, you know,
1:11:06you can't control whether your children
1:11:08are exposed to social issues or
1:11:10bullying. Or, there's many things that
1:11:12can cause stress in children. But, when
1:11:13they're very little,
1:11:15you are their environment. So, the
1:11:17inconvenient truth is that when your
1:11:19child gets an ADHD diagnosis, the first
1:11:22thing you should do is go to a therapist
1:11:24who will do parent guidance with you.
1:11:26Don't rush that child to a psychiatrist
1:11:29to medicate them. You go with your
1:11:31partner spouse and talk to a parent
1:11:34guidance expert about what could be
1:11:37causing this child to feel such stress.
1:11:40And, look at the psychosocial stressors.
1:11:43Look at the influences and the dynamics
1:11:45in this child's life that would be
1:11:47causing them to go into a state of
1:11:49stress like this. Give me some examples
1:11:51of the type of stresses, the everyday
1:11:52stresses that we're now exposing
1:11:54children to that are
1:11:56leading to ADHD in your opinion. Well,
1:11:58again, let's start at home. At home, the
1:12:01stresses might be that they were
1:12:04handed over to a daycare center at an
1:12:07early age, um which turned that amygdala
1:12:10response on, which turned the stress
1:12:12regulating part of the brain on too
1:12:14early. Now, you have that hypervigilant
1:12:17reaction, and they can't turn it off,
1:12:19right? Um it could be a divorce
1:12:22situation. 50% of couples divorce, which
1:12:25means that divorce is an adversity. You
1:12:27know, I have a book coming out in a year
1:12:29about how to divorce and mitigate the
1:12:31impact of the divorce on the child. But,
1:12:33no matter what, a divorce is an
1:12:35adversity on a child and a stress.
1:12:37Um when parents fight uh dramatically in
1:12:41the home. If there's uh tremendous
1:12:43sibling rivalry issues in the home. If
1:12:45there's the birth of another child, it's
1:12:47stressful, right? If you have a sibling,
1:12:50believe it or not, that's a very
1:12:51stressful thing. If parents are
1:12:53sensitive about that, then it can be
1:12:55mitigated, but if parents are
1:12:56insensitive about the birth of a second
1:12:58child and the feelings that your first
1:13:01child may have, that can cause stress.
1:13:03Moving can cause stress. Illness or
1:13:05mental illness in a parent can cause
1:13:07stress. Alcoholism, any kind of
1:13:09addiction can cause stress. A
1:13:11grandparent or uncle or aunt or even a
1:13:14parent getting sick and dying can cause
1:13:16I mean, there are so many things that
1:13:19can cause stress, but the point is that
1:13:21stress can be regulated, but it can only
1:13:25be regulated if parents are
1:13:27introspective and self-aware and willing
1:13:30to look at their part in it. If parents
1:13:33hand a child over to a psychiatrist and
1:13:35say, "Fix my child."
1:13:37Of course, psychiatrist will cooperate
1:13:40with you and silence your child's pain,
1:13:43but is that really what you want to be
1:13:44doing?
1:13:45Um because in the end, you're just
1:13:47putting your finger in a dike. You're
1:13:49putting your finger in a dam.
1:13:51And eventually, that dam is going to
1:13:53burst. What do you say to some of the
1:13:55evidence around there being a link to a
1:13:58hereditary component? In twin studies,
1:14:00they found that ADHD is about 74 to 80%
1:14:03heritable, making one of the most
1:14:04genetically influenced psychiatric
1:14:06conditions. Let me tell you what a
1:14:08different study that will help you to
1:14:09understand that study.
1:14:12Which is that
1:14:13we know that there is no genetic
1:14:15precursor to mental illness.
1:14:17There is no genetic precursor to ADHD.
1:14:20There is no genetic precursor to
1:14:22depression and no genetic precursor to
1:14:25anxiety. What do you mean by precursor?
1:14:27Meaning there's no genetic connection.
1:14:29You don't get it in your genes. If your
1:14:31father or your mother were depressed,
1:14:33you get it by something called the
1:14:34inheritance of acquired characteristics.
1:14:37If you're raised by a depressed parent,
1:14:39you're more likely to become depressed.
1:14:41It's the nature nurture argument. Okay,
1:14:43but what they did find
1:14:46Now, schizophrenia has a genetic
1:14:48connection, bipolar disorder, those have
1:14:50genetic, but the rest do not. Anxiety,
1:14:53depression, ADHD, no genetics.
1:14:56What they did find is a genetic tie to
1:14:59something called the sensitivity gene.
1:15:03It's a short allele on the serotonin
1:15:05receptor.
1:15:07And serotonin, as we know, is used to
1:15:10regulate happy emotions, to regulate
1:15:12emotions, right? So, when you have a
1:15:15short allele, it means that you have a
1:15:17harder time picking up the serotonin,
1:15:20but it also means that you are more
1:15:23sensitive to stress.
1:15:26Now, those children who are born with
1:15:28this gene, this short allele on the
1:15:30serotonin receptor gene,
1:15:33they are more prone to mental illness
1:15:35later on because of that sensitivity to
1:15:38stress.
1:15:40What the study shows is if those
1:15:43children who are born with that gene for
1:15:45sensitivity are provided with
1:15:49emotionally and physically present
1:15:51attachment security in the first year,
1:15:55it neutralizes the expression of that
1:15:58gene. So, epigenetics means that we're
1:16:00born with genes, like you might have a
1:16:02gene for rheumatoid arthritis, or you
1:16:04might have a gene for cancer, but it
1:16:05never gets expressed. Well, we all have
1:16:07genes for something,
1:16:08but they don't necessarily get
1:16:10expressed. That's what epigenetics is.
1:16:11It means the environment has to turn on
1:16:13the gene to make it let's rock and roll,
1:16:16right?
1:16:17Um what it showed in this study is that
1:16:20the children who were born with this
1:16:23genetic precursor, the sensitivity to
1:16:25stress,
1:16:26if they had sensitive, empathic,
1:16:28nurturing, and present parents in the
1:16:30first year,
1:16:31it neutralized the expression of that
1:16:33gene. So, those children could be as
1:16:37healthy as children born without that
1:16:39gene.
1:16:40If, however, children born with that
1:16:42sensitivity gene were neglected,
1:16:46you know, abandoned, not provided with
1:16:48sensitive and pathic present nurturing,
1:16:50it exacerbated that gene. So, we know
1:16:53that that sensitivity gene is tied and
1:16:55correlated to mental illness later on
1:16:58unless the sensitive and pathic
1:17:00nurturing mitigates that gene.
1:17:04And what do you say to people that point
1:17:05to MRI scans?
1:17:07fMRI's and yeah, there's there's all
1:17:10kinds of um neurological tests now where
1:17:13we can see the brain in action. So, it's
1:17:16not a static thing. We can actually see
1:17:18the blood flow to the brain. We can see
1:17:21the electrical activity in the brain.
1:17:23Some It's amazing actually. But some
1:17:25people say that this proves that it's
1:17:26the way your brain is. And lots of my
1:17:28friends that have ADHD when they talk
1:17:30about their ADHD or the way that they
1:17:32are, they say, "My brain works like
1:17:33this."
1:17:35No, it's not correct. Their brain is
1:17:38sensitive to stress. Someone with ADHD
1:17:40is more sensitive to stress. So, you
1:17:44could ask them questions like this. You
1:17:46could say,
1:17:47"Were you more Are you a more sensitive
1:17:49person? Are you more sensitive to noise,
1:17:52to smells, to touch? When you were a
1:17:54child, did you not like itchy things?
1:17:56Did you cry more? Were you more
1:17:58sensitive when your parents would go out
1:17:59for the night? Were you more sensitive
1:18:01when your mom would go to work? Or were
1:18:02you more sensitive when you were left at
1:18:04nursery school?"
1:18:05Um and they're probably going to say
1:18:07yes. But if they say no and they still
1:18:09have an ADHD diagnosis? I would
1:18:11guarantee, almost guarantee they
1:18:13wouldn't say no because people with ADHD
1:18:16are people who are sensitive.
1:18:19Sensitivity is an amazing strength
1:18:22if it's met with sensitivity. If you
1:18:25have a sensitive child, so what does a
1:18:27sensitive child look like?
1:18:29If you have multiple children,
1:18:31then you know, because the first thing
1:18:33I'll do when I give a public talk is
1:18:34I'll say, "Okay, any everybody here, who
1:18:36has a sensitive child?" And I describe,
1:18:38okay, sensitive child is a child who
1:18:40cries more,
1:18:42is harder to soothe,
1:18:43um
1:18:44is more
1:18:46clingy, doesn't like you leaving them,
1:18:48is harder it has a harder time
1:18:49separating, has a harder time going to
1:18:52sleep and being left to sleep on their
1:18:54own,
1:18:55um is sensitive to things like noise and
1:18:57smells and touch and
1:19:00If you grew up in an environment that
1:19:02was stressful, and again we've you've
1:19:03identified that stress can come in many
1:19:04forms, it could be arguing parents, it
1:19:06could be a neighbor or whatever, some
1:19:08environmental factor that caused that
1:19:09stress. You were sensitive, you
1:19:10developed ADHD.
1:19:12You become an adult, you get diagnosed
1:19:14at 30 years old as having ADHD. Yeah.
1:19:17You're offered medication, you take the
1:19:19medication, the medication makes you
1:19:21much more functional in your career, in
1:19:23your relationships, in your life.
1:19:25It's a stimulant. And so what stimulants
1:19:28do is they cause they can cause great
1:19:30anxiety, they can cause panic attacks in
1:19:33adolescents, uh they can cause growth
1:19:35issues. So,
1:19:38uh I have patients who come to me, young
1:19:40men who didn't grow because they were
1:19:42put on stimulants when they were young.
1:19:45So, um in in in terms of the
1:19:48consequences of using stimulants, the
1:19:51jury is still out, but we know that they
1:19:52cause growth issues, they cause panic
1:19:54attacks, they cause anxiety disorders,
1:19:56they cause depression.
1:19:58They're quite life-saving. They're quite
1:20:00life-saving for some people in terms of
1:20:01having a They can be. They can be. So,
1:20:04what I would say is if you have tried
1:20:07everything to uncover what the stress is
1:20:11that's causing you to react this way,
1:20:13and you still are feeling that way, then
1:20:16sometimes medication can be a lifesaver.
1:20:18The problem is that we turn to
1:20:19medication
1:20:21uh in in adolescents and children and
1:20:24young adults, we we turn to it as a
1:20:26performance drug.
1:20:28Um because there's so much stress in
1:20:30modern life, and there's such a need for
1:20:32people to perform and be successful in
1:20:35their careers and in school and get good
1:20:37grades. There's so much pressure on
1:20:39kids. So, you know, I'm 60 and we didn't
1:20:42have this kind of pressure
1:20:44growing up and so so the generations
1:20:47that follow have so much pressure. That
1:20:50pressure makes children literally go off
1:20:54the rails. We could talk about the
1:20:56academic pressure, the competitiveness,
1:20:59the perfectionism,
1:21:01um it So, ADHD is a bucket. It's a
1:21:06bucket which you throw people in who
1:21:08have anxiety that has never been
1:21:11treated. And so and there's different
1:21:13ways of thinking about treatment, too.
1:21:15So, we're a society that likes
1:21:17superficial quick fixes. We like drugs.
1:21:20We like CBT therapy.
1:21:23The truth is that this is not a quick
1:21:25fix.
1:21:26Figuring out relationally dynamically
1:21:30what happened to you as a child, what
1:21:32your losses were, what your traumas
1:21:34were, what caused you
1:21:37to feel so anxious, what's caused you to
1:21:40go into fight or flight is hard work. It
1:21:43requires frustration. It requires
1:21:45commitment. It requires going to someone
1:21:48who can think very deeply with you.
1:21:51You know, I I want to define
1:21:53what anxiety is because I think it's
1:21:56really important.
1:21:58Cuz we rarely define depression and
1:22:00anxiety. Um depression is preoccupation
1:22:05with past losses.
1:22:07Anxiety
1:22:09is preoccupation
1:22:11with future losses that may never occur.
1:22:14What do they have in common?
1:22:17It's all about losses. All about loss.
1:22:21And you could say the generations now
1:22:24are very preoccupied with loss.
1:22:29Loss of status, achievement.
1:22:33But because we're also very preoccupied
1:22:35with gain.
1:22:38Well, we're preoccupied with what I say
1:22:40the
1:22:41you know, I don't want to judge, but I
1:22:43want to say the unimportant things in
1:22:44life.
1:22:46What are the important things in life?
1:22:48Relationships, love, connection,
1:22:52health.
1:22:53Right? You would say objectively family.
1:22:56These are the important things in life.
1:22:58But we've become very preoccupied with
1:23:02material success, money,
1:23:05uh career achievements, fame.
1:23:09I think there was a study that
1:23:11interviewed teenagers. Um
1:23:14And it was really discouraging because
1:23:16they said that the thing they wanted
1:23:18more in life than anything was to be
1:23:20famous. And so, we're preoccupied with
1:23:23the wrong things.
1:23:25On this point of stress and the link
1:23:26with ADHD, I'm looking at some research
1:23:29from the
1:23:31injury.com
1:23:32research education group. Um it says
1:23:35that children with an A score, which is
1:23:37the trauma bit score, where I think it
1:23:39goes up to 10 different sort of
1:23:40questions,
1:23:41with an A score of four or more, so four
1:23:43experiences of trauma or more, have
1:23:45nearly four times, which is 400%
1:23:48more chance of having
1:23:50parent-reported ADHD compared to
1:23:52children with no ACEs. Yeah. And some of
1:23:54the factors that have big impact are
1:23:55socio-socioeconomic hardship increases
1:23:58your probability of having ADHD by 40%,
1:24:00parental divorce by
1:24:0235%, familial mental illness, so a
1:24:05parent having a mental illness increases
1:24:07it up to almost 60%, 55% I believe, and
1:24:10neighborhood violence almost 50%,
1:24:12familial incarceration, so if a parent
1:24:14goes to prison, then that increases your
1:24:16probability of ADHD by about 40% as
1:24:19well. And that's published by the
1:24:22I think it's the New England
1:24:24Yeah. What is it or the National Library
1:24:26of Medicine National Center of
1:24:27Biological Information?
1:24:28Yes, so remember what I said that you
1:24:30can't control everything that happens to
1:24:32your child. Divorces do happen and
1:24:34adversities happen to children. Health
1:24:37health issues happen to children. What
1:24:40you can control is you can control the
1:24:43first 3 years and be as present as
1:24:45possible for your child. So if my kid
1:24:48starts screaming in a supermarket
1:24:51one of the prevailing pieces of advice
1:24:53says just walk off or start screaming
1:24:56yourself as the parent to show them. Do
1:24:58am I supposed to just ignore my child
1:25:00when it's screaming and throwing a
1:25:01tantrum? Am I meant to drop what I'm
1:25:03doing and go and cater to them? What am
1:25:05I meant to do in this situation?
1:25:06have me on speed dial, Steven.
1:25:07You be careful because if you make a
1:25:09promise like that I will call I will
1:25:11call
1:25:12You really want to drop your career and
1:25:14focus on raising my children?
1:25:17I've got this on video. That's legally
1:25:19binding.
1:25:21How much?
1:25:22Yeah, you can as much as you want. So
1:25:24the deal is you don't yell at your
1:25:26children.
1:25:27An emotionally regulated parent a
1:25:30healthy parent produces a healthy child.
1:25:32So what is a healthy parent? A healthy
1:25:34parent is a parent who feels good about
1:25:36themselves who has
1:25:37authentically good self-esteem not
1:25:40grandiosity but really feels good about
1:25:42themselves knows their strengths and
1:25:44limitations and overall as a whole
1:25:46person feels good about themselves. Um
1:25:49they have the capacity to regulate their
1:25:51emotions to keep their emotions from
1:25:53going too high and too low. Remember
1:25:55Mhm. sailing in the Caribbean meaning
1:25:57they can stay calm in a storm. Um is
1:26:00sensitive and empathic as a nurturer.
1:26:03These are signs of health in a in a
1:26:06parent. So if my kid says I want that
1:26:09pack of sweets and I go you you you
1:26:12can't have that pack of sweets.
1:26:13Well, first you have to so before you
1:26:15discipline
1:26:17you always want to be empathic first.
1:26:18So, I always say that that if you are
1:26:20going to discipline a child,
1:26:23first you have to recognize how they
1:26:25feel. I mean, recognize recognizing how
1:26:27children feel is important anyway.
1:26:30Meaning, when you recognize a child's
1:26:32feelings, if they're sad, you mirror
1:26:34their sadness. If they're angry, you
1:26:36say, "I can see you're angry." If
1:26:38they're happy, you look happy with them.
1:26:40That kind of reflection
1:26:42is the way that your child knows that
1:26:46you acknowledge them. That they're a
1:26:49person to you. That they're a separate
1:26:51person to you. It's how they feel
1:26:53valuable. So, when you acknowledge their
1:26:55feelings, that's the first critical
1:26:58you'd say parenting 101. Acknowledge
1:27:00your child's feelings.
1:27:02So, I would turn to my child and say,
1:27:03"You want sweets, so you're hungry."
1:27:04Yeah, you can say, "I can see that you
1:27:06really want that packet of sweets. I can
1:27:08see how hard it is cuz you really want
1:27:10it, but you know you can't have it
1:27:11before dinner. You know that's the
1:27:13rule." And then they start screaming and
1:27:15crying.
1:27:16screaming, and you say, "You broken
1:27:18record" is a communication style where
1:27:20you say, "Oh, I can see it's really hard
1:27:23for you, but you still can't have the
1:27:25sweets." And you stay with them, and you
1:27:27keep empathizing and then setting
1:27:30structure. Empathizing structure.
1:27:32Empathizing structure.
1:27:34The mistake that parents make is that
1:27:35they go right into the no word. They
1:27:38don't use empathy. They don't bring
1:27:40empathy in.
1:27:41And the truth is that even as an adult,
1:27:44if somebody just says no without first
1:27:47recognizing how you feel,
1:27:49you feel very unsatisfied,
1:27:52right? For a child, it's critical. It's
1:27:55critical that even when you have to say
1:27:57no, and particularly if you have to say
1:27:59no, that you first recognize how they
1:28:01feel. I mean, that's what all the
1:28:02relationship experts on this show tell
1:28:04me. They say, "If you want to be
1:28:05successful in a romantic relationship,
1:28:07then you first must make your partner
1:28:09feel heard and understood."
1:28:10That's right. Even if you disagree in an
1:28:12argument, first acknowledge what they
1:28:13said, maybe repeat it back to them.
1:28:16And then they'll feel heard and
1:28:17understood and it kind of stops the
1:28:18broken record.
1:28:19Do you think that I'm a traumatized
1:28:20child?
1:28:22I don't know. I haven't heard about your
1:28:23traumatized background. If so, if you
1:28:25have a trauma I would say we're all So,
1:28:28let me say this. There's this word
1:28:29trauma is used a lot. Can I just talk
1:28:32about it for a moment?
1:28:34There's something called big T trauma,
1:28:36right? Big T traumas like I was in a car
1:28:39accident and I lost my legs or
1:28:41you know, I lost my parents, you know,
1:28:45my mother died of brain cancer or my my
1:28:47father was an alcoholic and beat me or
1:28:50you know, there's there are
1:28:52things that are more concrete that you
1:28:54can like hold on to, things that
1:28:57happened to people. Yeah, I was raped or
1:28:59you know,
1:29:00those are big T trauma.
1:29:03But believe it or not,
1:29:05probably fewer people suffer from big T
1:29:08trauma and more people suffer from
1:29:11little T trauma. And little T trauma
1:29:14is more nuanced.
1:29:16It's um it it requires looking with a
1:29:21with a finer-tooth comb at at the
1:29:23issues. It's more relational.
1:29:25It's more I was subtly neglected by my
1:29:29mother. My mother wasn't a good
1:29:31listener. My mother loved me but she my
1:29:33father loved me but he never understood
1:29:36me.
1:29:37Uh my parents were narcissistic and very
1:29:39self-centered.
1:29:41Um
1:29:41they were never around, you know, and so
1:29:44people will come into my office and sit
1:29:46down, individuals for therapy and
1:29:48they'll say, you know, I don't know
1:29:50what's wrong with me.
1:29:51I had two parents who stayed together,
1:29:54had all the material wealth that I could
1:29:57need. I never wanted for stuff.
1:30:00Uh you know, my parents stayed together
1:30:02and I don't know what's wrong with me.
1:30:03And so I say, "Okay, so you're telling
1:30:06me nothing
1:30:07big and traumatic happened to you in
1:30:09your life. Now, let's talk about the
1:30:11nuance.
1:30:12And we're not very nuanced anymore. So,
1:30:14we don't want to look at what causes
1:30:17most forms of mental illness,
1:30:19depression, anxiety,
1:30:21uh even ADHD,
1:30:23are the relational nuances of a family.
1:30:27And what you mean by the relational
1:30:28nuances? It could be the
1:30:30neglect,
1:30:31neglect, being ignored, having a
1:30:33mentally ill parent that no one knows
1:30:35about, maybe a depressed mother who
1:30:37sleeps in in the morning and doesn't get
1:30:39up and feed you, you know, you get up
1:30:41and feed yourself, or
1:30:43uh maybe you're a latchkey kid who comes
1:30:45home and and you're isolated and alone,
1:30:48or things that people can't see,
1:30:52um but you see. And so, that's why
1:30:54people I would say most people go into
1:30:56therapy not for big T traumas, believe
1:31:00it or not, even though the ACES study
1:31:02says, you know, alcoholism, drug
1:31:04addiction. Of course, those are big T
1:31:05traumas.
1:31:07Most people come into therapy for
1:31:10little T trauma.
1:31:12And and the reason why
1:31:15it's it's quite difficult for those
1:31:18people is there's not a lot of
1:31:20reinforcement from society that those
1:31:22are also traumas, but in fact, they are
1:31:24traumas. Attachment trauma,
1:31:26you know, if you were put in daycare and
1:31:28you So, I have patients who come to me
1:31:30and say, "I can remember
1:31:32being put in daycare." And you know,
1:31:34you're not supposed to remember things
1:31:36until the age of 4 or 5, but some
1:31:39patients can remember flashes of memory
1:31:41under 5. And they'll say, "I was put
1:31:43into daycare. I just all I can remember
1:31:45is screaming my lungs out for my mommy."
1:31:49You're not a fan of daycare, are you?
1:31:50No.
1:31:51What's wrong with daycare?
1:31:54Daycare raises salivary cortisol levels
1:31:57in children, the studies show, be
1:31:59meaning those babies are put into
1:32:02stressful states uh at a very young age
1:32:05when their brains are developing.
1:32:07Daycare has been known to increase
1:32:09aggression and anxiety and behavioral
1:32:12problems in school in the school years.
1:32:15And those children are more likely to
1:32:17develop attachment disorders.
1:32:19Remember those first 3 years when
1:32:21children are so very fragile and
1:32:23vulnerable.
1:32:25Taking them away from your body as a
1:32:27primary attachment figure and handing
1:32:29them over to strangers
1:32:32and leaving them there for hours on end
1:32:36will cause your child to have to develop
1:32:38pathological defenses and that's what
1:32:41those children are forced to do.
1:32:43So, it is the least good option of child
1:32:45care. So, let's talk about what are the
1:32:46better options of child care
1:32:49if you have to use child care.
1:32:52You know how we say breast is best and
1:32:54it is for a variety of reasons, but the
1:32:56best is your primary attachment figure
1:32:59for the first 3 years as much as
1:33:01possible.
1:33:02Primary attachment attachment figure you
1:33:04mean the mother? Well, no it can be the
1:33:06father.
1:33:07Okay. It's the go-to person
1:33:10who's a sensitive empathic nurturer. So,
1:33:12when that baby's in distress, that baby
1:33:15gets their emotional needs met. It can
1:33:17be the father. It can be the father, but
1:33:20first the father has to learn how to be
1:33:21a sensitive It doesn't come naturally to
1:33:23most men. With rare exception, I have
1:33:26known some patients
1:33:28where the husband the father was more
1:33:31sensitive than the mother. It's
1:33:33possible.
1:33:34But in general, instinctually fathers
1:33:38are not sensitive empathic nurturers
1:33:40because it's against their evolutionary
1:33:42instinct. Their evolutionary instinct
1:33:45if you were an animal on the plains of
1:33:46Africa
1:33:48you're
1:33:49you're you're an impala.
1:33:52You're a daddy impala. Mhm. Your baby is
1:33:55born and it comes out running cuz they
1:33:57are. They're like born and you're all
1:33:59running together.
1:34:01You get behind that baby and you're
1:34:03like, "Get going, buddy. You better get
1:34:05going or you're going to be lunch for
1:34:07that lion."
1:34:08That's a father's instinct is to
1:34:10protect. It's protective aggression,
1:34:12right? That's different than the baby
1:34:15impala falls down and the mother comes
1:34:17over and licks the baby and says, "Are
1:34:18you okay, honey? Can I give you a hug?
1:34:20Can you Should I
1:34:21If impala could talk. Um so it's a
1:34:25different instinct. So, fathers can be
1:34:26taught to be primary attachment figures,
1:34:28but this is why I say it's so very
1:34:30important that we recognize the
1:34:32difference between men and women. If we
1:34:34just think they're exactly the same and
1:34:36we put it throw a father into the mix
1:34:38with an infant and the mother's going
1:34:40out and the father's staying home, if we
1:34:42don't talk about this stuff and and talk
1:34:45about it openly and say, "When the baby
1:34:48cries, you have to mirror the baby's
1:34:50emotions. You have to do skin-to-skin.
1:34:52You have to soothe the baby, not
1:34:55encourage resilience, not not distract
1:34:58the baby, not use discrepant emotions
1:35:00with the baby." If the baby's crying,
1:35:02don't go, "Oh, you're okay. You'll be
1:35:03fine." No, no. So, it's really important
1:35:07if the father's going to stay home that
1:35:08he learns how to be a mother. You know,
1:35:10sometimes gay couples will come to me
1:35:13and I'll say, um you know, two gay men
1:35:15will come. I'll say, "Which one of you's
1:35:17going to be the mother?"
1:35:19Now, that may seem politically
1:35:20incorrect, but someone's got to play
1:35:21that role. You cannot have two fathers
1:35:23for a child. A child needs a mother and
1:35:25a father. If you're going to have two
1:35:26men, then one of them has to play that
1:35:28sensitive empathic role. The other has
1:35:30to play the playful tactile stimulation
1:35:32role. Same with two women who are
1:35:34raising children. It's better to have a
1:35:36father and a mother than two mothers.
1:35:38So, which of you's going to be the dad?
1:35:40Which of you's going to roughhouse and
1:35:42play basketball and roll around on the
1:35:44ground and tickle the baby and encourage
1:35:46exploration and risk-taking and Can you
1:35:48both do half each?
1:35:50Like so so they couldn't
1:35:51No. No. And I'll tell you why. It's very
1:35:53confusing to children.
1:35:55They When parents say, "I'm both mother
1:35:58and father to my child." I say, "No. No.
1:36:01It's very confusing to children. They
1:36:03need to have a mother figure
1:36:06and a father figure." And I say that
1:36:07knowing today's politics and knowing
1:36:09today's social situation.
1:36:11You can have a mother figure who's not a
1:36:14mother. Maybe it's a nanny. Maybe it's a
1:36:17grandmother. You need a mother figure.
1:36:20And you need that figure to be around a
1:36:23lot.
1:36:24If that mother figure is the one who
1:36:26provides the sensitive empathic
1:36:28nurturing. So, some of this can be
1:36:30taught, but it can't be taught unless
1:36:32you first acknowledge that there are
1:36:34differences. If we cannot as a society
1:36:37acknowledge the inconvenient truth that
1:36:39men and women are different in terms of
1:36:40their nurturing behaviors, then we can't
1:36:42teach anybody anything.
1:36:44I'm looking at some stats here in front
1:36:46of me on a graph which I was just
1:36:48reading as as you're explaining that cuz
1:36:49it seems to be quite relevant. And it
1:36:51shows that in 1960, one in 10 mothers
1:36:55were the sole primary breadwinner. Yeah.
1:36:58Now, it's almost at half. It's on its
1:37:00way to half.
1:37:02Almost half of mothers are the sole or
1:37:04primary breadwinner in 2016.
1:37:08So, I mean, these mothers can't just
1:37:11quit their jobs.
1:37:13So,
1:37:15If there's a It's It's It's It's a good
1:37:17question.
1:37:18I get a lot of people coming to me and
1:37:20saying
1:37:21and this is very common,
1:37:24"I want to quit my job.
1:37:26I want to downscale. I want to work
1:37:29part-time,
1:37:30but my husband won't support it
1:37:34because I made a promise that I would be
1:37:36the primary breadwinner. And now I want
1:37:39to switch, and he won't switch. Or he
1:37:41doesn't support me giving up my
1:37:44high-paying job, but I feel this
1:37:46transformation of being with my baby and
1:37:48I don't want to leave my baby.
1:37:50The problem with young people is they
1:37:52promise each other, they make promises
1:37:54to each other that they probably should
1:37:55not make. Do not promise your spouse
1:37:58that nothing will change when you have a
1:38:00baby.
1:38:01Say to your spouse, let's prepare for
1:38:04everything to change.
1:38:07Let's believe that
1:38:10anything is possible and let's
1:38:13prepare. Let's strategize. Let's say,
1:38:16what if I want to stay home with the
1:38:18baby? What if I
1:38:20I may not feel like that now, but what
1:38:22if I see this baby and I fall in love
1:38:23with this baby and I want to stay home
1:38:25and I'm the mother and I want to
1:38:26breastfeed and I don't want to go back
1:38:27to work for a while and
1:38:29and so then you say, what would that
1:38:31scenario look like? What could we do?
1:38:33What could we downscale in terms of our
1:38:35material life and our lifestyle that
1:38:38makes it possible for me to stay home?
1:38:42And I don't think we do that. Instead,
1:38:45women say, nothing's going to change and
1:38:47men say, nothing's going to change. And
1:38:49then they have babies and they're not
1:38:51prepared for the changes that occur.
1:38:54Changes occur in men, too. It's not just
1:38:56women. I mean, fathers also can have
1:38:59this transformation, right?
1:39:02Um where they also want to work less or,
1:39:05you know, sometimes the transformation
1:39:07comes in the form of wanting to work
1:39:08less and being home. Sometimes it comes
1:39:10in the form of
1:39:12wanting to go out and take on the world
1:39:14so they can provide for their family,
1:39:15you know. But it does it does stimulate
1:39:18something. It stimulates some
1:39:20evolutionary response in men and women.
1:39:23The hardest thing I find is when men and
1:39:25women compete.
1:39:28It was much easier in the olden days.
1:39:30Now, not everything was good in the
1:39:31olden days, but you would say the idea
1:39:34that roles were defined
1:39:37meant that men and women didn't compete
1:39:40over their roles. Now, what I think is
1:39:44causing a lot of these divorces and
1:39:46what's causing a lot of marital conflict
1:39:48is that men and women compete over
1:39:50everything. They compete over who's
1:39:52going to make more money. They compete
1:39:55over who's going to care for the baby.
1:39:57Um and so it's like you you're a CEO CEO
1:40:01of a company, you had your own company.
1:40:03So, you can't have co-CEOs. I mean, I
1:40:06don't know if you did, but it doesn't
1:40:08work. I mean, anybody that I've ever
1:40:09treated that says we're going to do
1:40:11co-CEOs, it always falls apart. You can
1:40:13have a CEO, you can have a president,
1:40:15you can have the head of marketing, you
1:40:17can have a CFO, you can have a COO.
1:40:19These are different roles.
1:40:21And they don't compete with one another.
1:40:22They work as a team.
1:40:24Parenting is a team sport, not a
1:40:27competitive sport.
1:40:29And so, what's happening today because
1:40:31of all this gender neutrality and we're
1:40:34as I'm as good as you and you're as good
1:40:35as me and we're the same, it means that
1:40:38couples are competing with one another.
1:40:40And that's causing so much tension
1:40:42because what's best is when couples
1:40:44compliment each other.
1:40:46When their differences
1:40:49mean that as a team, they work well to
1:40:52care for a child. And I would say the
1:40:54secret to success in a marriage is save
1:40:57your competition for the tennis court,
1:40:59for the basketball court, for running in
1:41:03the park,
1:41:04but don't compete over child-rearing,
1:41:06who's going to take care of the
1:41:07children. Don't compete over who makes
1:41:09more money. Find a way to compliment
1:41:12each other and be a team.
1:41:15There's so many mothers listening now
1:41:16that
1:41:17are very career-driven. Mhm. Um you may
1:41:20be causing some existential crises. You
1:41:22may be reaffirming a lot of what they
1:41:24believe and think and what they feel
1:41:26intuitively.
1:41:27Um
1:41:28are you are you saying then that for
1:41:31those women that are pursuing, you know,
1:41:33high-octane careers in leadership roles
1:41:37that also want to have children, that
1:41:38it's one or the other.
1:41:41No. I'm saying that there are certain
1:41:44careers, realistically, here's the
1:41:45inconvenient truth again, bunch of
1:41:47inconvenient truths.
1:41:49Um
1:41:51there are certain careers that are
1:41:54harder
1:41:56to be a good mother.
1:41:58Period. I'm saying that, I know it's a
1:42:00harsh talk, but there it is. There are
1:42:02certain careers that are too demanding
1:42:04to be present for your children.
1:42:07Whether you're a mother or a father.
1:42:09You think if you're a father who's a CEO
1:42:11who's traveling around the world and
1:42:12misses your children's birthday and
1:42:14misses your children's soccer games and
1:42:16misses your children's piano concerts
1:42:18and isn't there to pick them up at
1:42:20school or have breakfast with them or
1:42:22have dinner at the end of the day, you
1:42:24think that child is going to have a
1:42:26healthy relationship with that parent?
1:42:29Another myth, here we are. I told you I
1:42:31was going to weave the myths in. Quality
1:42:33versus quantity time.
1:42:36You cannot be there for your children
1:42:40on your own time, you have to be there
1:42:43on their time.
1:42:45Meaning, quality time is a narcissistic
1:42:48fantasy.
1:42:50I can be there on my time.
1:42:52So, my child sits at home and is like a
1:42:55vase on the counter waiting for me to
1:42:57come home and then I come home and there
1:43:00I can be present for my child. Your
1:43:02child has needed you all day long.
1:43:06And when you come home,
1:43:08that's your that's on your time.
1:43:11You need to be there a quality of time
1:43:14as well as a quantity of time. I always
1:43:16say to people that you can be
1:43:18you can be physically present, but be
1:43:20emotionally checked out, but you can't
1:43:21be emotionally present if you're not
1:43:22physically there enough of the time.
1:43:26And that's just a reality. So, what are
1:43:27the careers that are really good
1:43:29for for going to be the primary
1:43:31attachment figure.
1:43:33Service fields, fields where you have
1:43:36your own business and you can
1:43:38make your own schedule around your
1:43:40children where your children don't work
1:43:44around you, you work around your
1:43:45children.
1:43:46Physical therapy, psychotherapy, speech
1:43:50therapy, consulting maybe.
1:43:53Um anything that's entrepreneurial,
1:43:55anything that is a service field.
1:43:57See a podcaster, investor, entrepreneur
1:43:59or something. No, I'm going to disagree
1:44:00with you. I'm going to say you can, but
1:44:03you have to be willing to set limits
1:44:05with yourself. So, you have to be
1:44:07willing to say
1:44:09Do you know Monet, the painter? Yeah. He
1:44:11was famous in his own life. Now, most
1:44:14painters have to be dead to be famous.
1:44:16And he painted on a very
1:44:21modest schedule. Get up in the morning
1:44:23to catch the light and then he'd be done
1:44:25by like 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon.
1:44:26He'd have dinner with his family, you
1:44:28know.
1:44:29We We are the architects of our own
1:44:32lives. Kind of. No, not kind of. I'm
1:44:36representing the opinion of some people
1:44:38who might be listening. I obviously this
1:44:40Okay, so what So, who are the people who
1:44:42can't architect their own lives? You
1:44:44want to be a Who do you think? I would
1:44:46say hedge fund managers. Okay, let me
1:44:48tell you that. So, I was 18 years old
1:44:50dropped out of university. Mhm. Um
1:44:52probably had sex that year. So, if I had
1:44:54sex that year and had a baby and then I
1:44:56became a single parent. At the time I
1:45:00was I had two CCJs. I was broke. I was
1:45:03shoplifting food to feed myself. I
1:45:04printed off the doll forms. I hadn't I
1:45:06never sent them in, but the forms where
1:45:08you get, you know, like government
1:45:09assistance.
1:45:10And I was working in call centers
1:45:12working night shifts because that was
1:45:14the best job I could get to pay for the
1:45:16the rent that I had every month. If I'd
1:45:18had a baby at that exact moment in time
1:45:21I didn't think I would be the it
1:45:23wouldn't it wouldn't resonate with me
1:45:25what you were saying about being the
1:45:26architect of my own destiny because
1:45:28there are like immediate emergencies. I
1:45:29can't I can't feed myself let alone a
1:45:31kid. So, I'll tell you And I also didn't
1:45:33have any family within hours. My mom had
1:45:35basically disowned me because I dropped
1:45:37out of university. I was alone. Did you
1:45:39have a baby at 18?
1:45:41No. Okay.
1:45:41I'm I haven't had kids yet. I'm hoping
1:45:42to. Okay. So, um
1:45:46first of all, it's a good reason to use
1:45:47birth control and not have a baby at 18.
1:45:49But okay, let's put that aside for a
1:45:51second. Let's Let's put that aside for a
1:45:53second.
1:45:54Let's say that what we should be
1:45:56promoting in this world, I'm going to
1:45:59say this, it's controversial,
1:46:01is that whoever is the primary
1:46:03attachment figure
1:46:05has a career that they have control over
1:46:07and flexibility. Maybe the other person
1:46:09doesn't. Maybe the other person works
1:46:11for someone or whatever. But in my book,
1:46:14I interview a lot of different women
1:46:15from a lot of different socioeconomic
1:46:17backgrounds. And one of the women that I
1:46:19interviewed was a nanny.
1:46:21And she said, she had three children,
1:46:25and she said that
1:46:28the way that I raise my children,
1:46:30because I was a single mother raising
1:46:31three children, I had to work to pay the
1:46:34rent.
1:46:36She said, "But I made sure that I didn't
1:46:38work past 5:00. I never worked past
1:46:405:00. I'd come home at 5:00.
1:46:44I didn't go out at night. People would
1:46:45say, 'Let's go.' I said, 'No. My
1:46:47children, this is my time with my
1:46:50children. So, I don't go out at night. I
1:46:52don't go out on weekends. I'm with when
1:46:54I'm not working, I am with my children.
1:46:57And my children knew that I had to work.
1:46:59But the way I used my free time was very
1:47:03carefully."
1:47:05Um she also said to me, and again, a
1:47:08number of There are a number of
1:47:09interviews in there. She also said that
1:47:12the people who she left her children
1:47:14with, she never used daycare.
1:47:17She had extended family watch her child.
1:47:20So, her neighbor, who was her dear
1:47:23friend, she paid to watch her child. And
1:47:27so, that person was auntie, and that
1:47:29person was like family, and was in that
1:47:32child's life forever.
1:47:34So, what I say about child care is there
1:47:37different levels of importance. So, the
1:47:39first the best is your primary
1:47:41attachment figure. Next best is kinship
1:47:43bonds, family or extended family.
1:47:46Someone who has a similar investment to
1:47:48that child as you do. Even if the kid's
1:47:50going to be raised alone at that early
1:47:51age?
1:47:53Yes.
1:47:54Versus going to daycare where they'll be
1:47:55around other kids?
1:47:56No. No, children don't need other kids
1:47:58until the age of three. They do
1:48:00something called parallel play. What
1:48:02they need is one-on-one connection. They
1:48:04need attachment security, and they need
1:48:07their emotional needs met by one person,
1:48:10one-on-one.
1:48:11Um after three, then the beginning of
1:48:13preschool, then they start to actually
1:48:15interact with one another. Until then,
1:48:17they're not playing together. They're
1:48:18just doing parallel play. So, that's
1:48:21another myth. The myth that daycare is
1:48:23good for children for socialization. No,
1:48:26children don't need socialization before
1:48:29three, unless their mother's with them.
1:48:31So, what I say is do playdates, do
1:48:34playgroups, but be within
1:48:36eye gaze or ear earshot of a child.
1:48:40Meaning, there's something called
1:48:42um rapprochement, which is emotional
1:48:44refueling. So, when children start to
1:48:47explore, when you've given them
1:48:48emotional security, and they feel so
1:48:50secure that you're going to be there,
1:48:53then they start to take chances, they
1:48:55start to take risks, they start to
1:48:57toddle off. That's the where the word
1:48:59toddler came from.
1:49:00They toddle away, but guess what they do
1:49:03for emotional security?
1:49:05They look back, and they say, "Oh, she's
1:49:08there. It's okay." And then they keep
1:49:09playing.
1:49:10Or,
1:49:11they run back and get a hug, and then
1:49:13they run off again.
1:49:15You are their touchstone of security.
1:49:18And that's how children become
1:49:20courageous. That's how they develop the
1:49:22ability to explore and still feel
1:49:24secure. Your gut and my gut is the home
1:49:27of our digestion, and it's also a
1:49:28gateway to better health. But, it can be
1:49:30hard to know what's going on in there.
1:49:32Zoe, who sponsors this podcast, has one
1:49:34of the largest microbiome databases on
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1:50:48life seems to be competing for my
1:50:49attention, I turn to Whoop because it
1:50:51doesn't have a screen. And Will Ahmed,
1:50:53the CEO who came on this podcast, told
1:50:55me the reason that there's no screen,
1:50:57because screens equal distraction. So,
1:51:00when I'm in meetings or I'm at the gym,
1:51:01my Whoop doesn't demand my attention.
1:51:03It's there in the background, constantly
1:51:05pulling data and insights from my body
1:51:07that are ready for when I need them. If
1:51:10you've been thinking about joining
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1:51:12join.whoop.com/ceo
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1:51:22Let me know how you get on. You keep
1:51:24mentioning but 3 years old.
1:51:26Yes. Why 3 years old? And there's kind
1:51:29of like two sub segments to this
1:51:31question that I was keen to understand.
1:51:34Is there an element of neuroplasticity
1:51:36that makes the age of 3 so important?
1:51:39And the other kind of sub question I was
1:51:41trying to figure out in my head was
1:51:43is the damage we do before 3 years old
1:51:45to a child inadvertently
1:51:48at all reversible? And is it damage?
1:51:50So, plasticity
1:51:53there are certain what we call critical
1:51:54periods of right or social emotional
1:51:57brain development. One is zero to three
1:51:59and it's the most important because
1:52:01what's happening is something called
1:52:02neurogenesis. So, it's the growth of
1:52:04cells.
1:52:06And your presence as a parent who
1:52:09provides safety and security, buffers
1:52:12your child from stress, regulates their
1:52:14emotions
1:52:15is critical to them growing that right
1:52:20brain because 85% of their right brain
1:52:22is developed by three. Crazy, right? 85%
1:52:26and you being there
1:52:28changes the architecture of that brain.
1:52:31That's how important you are. Like
1:52:33people come up to me in cocktail parties
1:52:35and they'll say to me,
1:52:36"Ah, I don't have to be there. My baby's
1:52:38just sleeping and pooping and you know,
1:52:41they don't need me. I'm going to be
1:52:42around when they're talking and
1:52:43walking." I'm like, "No!"
1:52:46I'm like, "You got it wrong." I'm like,
1:52:49"You have to be here now because now is
1:52:51when the cell growth is happening. Every
1:52:54time a baby snuggles and takes the
1:52:57breast and looks at you with their eyes
1:52:59and you sing to them
1:53:01thousands, millions of synapses are
1:53:04firing. Okay. So, you have Think of a
1:53:07garden.
1:53:08By 3 years of age,
1:53:10you're growing a garden. I know cuz I
1:53:12just started a garden where I have
1:53:14vegetables and flowers and it's
1:53:16abundant. It's an abundant I love my
1:53:18garden.
1:53:20This is an abundant garden of brain
1:53:22tissue. Okay?
1:53:24If you do it right, it grows it
1:53:27overgrows. You know, the flowers, the
1:53:29vegetables, it's growing crazy. Okay.
1:53:32Now, they go into childhood. After 3
1:53:35years old, they go into childhood.
1:53:38And for from 3 years old till about 9
1:53:41years old,
1:53:43it's still growing, but it's not growing
1:53:45at the same pace. So, say that it's
1:53:48still like growing a little like like it
1:53:50the garden grows in one big burst and
1:53:53then little bursts. So, from 3 to 9,
1:53:56it's still growing, right? But not not
1:53:58to the same degree as the first critical
1:54:00period of brain development. Now,
1:54:02adolescence comes, 9 to 25.
1:54:05And now you have to prune back the
1:54:07garden because if you don't prune back
1:54:09the cells you don't need,
1:54:12it's as damaging to the brain as if you
1:54:14didn't grow them to begin with. So, in
1:54:17these two critical windows,
1:54:19the environment
1:54:20dictates do the cells grow? Do they get
1:54:23pruned?
1:54:25And
1:54:27when they're really little, you're their
1:54:29environment. You're it. Tag, you're it.
1:54:31When they're in adolescence, you're a
1:54:33very important part of the environment,
1:54:35but not all of their environment. They
1:54:37have friends, they have school, they
1:54:38have activities, right? And so, it's
1:54:42very important if you can get to the
1:54:43first window to get there because you
1:54:46don't know what's going to happen to
1:54:47them and you want to fortify them,
1:54:49right? You want to fortify them so when
1:54:51they get to adolescence, which is really
1:54:53painful and hard and a struggle, that
1:54:57they have the res- the inner resources
1:54:59to to cope with adolescence cuz it's so
1:55:02hard, adolescence, right? And it offers
1:55:04such adversity, social adversity,
1:55:06academic adversity, right? Social media.
1:55:09So, both of these periods are important.
1:55:13If you miss the first window
1:55:16What's 0 to 3? Yes. The title of my
1:55:19second book.
1:55:21It's called Chicken Little, The Sky
1:55:24Isn't Falling, Raising Resilient
1:55:26Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety.
1:55:28If that isn't a mouthful. Do you know
1:55:30what the title of the book was supposed
1:55:32to be? It was supposed to be second
1:55:34chances.
1:55:37Ah, okay. And the title of Being There
1:55:40was supposed to be called The Lost
1:55:42Instinct. So, if you messed up your
1:55:44kids, you get a second chance
1:55:46a second chance. And what do you do? I
1:55:48want people to read the book cuz it's
1:55:50more nuanced than what I'm saying. A lot
1:55:52of what you should have done in the
1:55:54first 3 years. So
1:55:56You got to be there.
1:55:57You got to be there in a different way.
1:55:59You're not going to I mean, they're not
1:56:00little little, so, but when they come
1:56:02home from school, if you are not there
1:56:07when the door swings open, everybody
1:56:09knows that teenagers close their doors,
1:56:12if they have doors.
1:56:14And that's their way of saying, "My
1:56:16defenses are up. Go away."
1:56:19If parents work really hard and then
1:56:22they come home, they go, "Knock knock
1:56:24knock, I'm here to spend time with you.
1:56:26How how was your day?"
1:56:28That door's closed. Closed, baby,
1:56:30closed.
1:56:32If you aren't there when the door opens
1:56:35on its own, on their terms. If you're
1:56:38not there when they're coming out to get
1:56:39a snack or to take a pee or to take a
1:56:42break from their studying. If you are
1:56:44not there then and open for business for
1:56:47communication, the door closes again.
1:56:51So, it goes back to this idea that
1:56:54children need you
1:56:56when they need you.
1:56:58Not when you're personally available.
1:57:02And if you miss that window, it's not
1:57:04the end of the world because you can a
1:57:06word that we use is to repair.
1:57:09You can repair a lot of the damage.
1:57:12But
1:57:13to repair the damage, you can't go back
1:57:16to sort of like going to a confessional
1:57:17if you're Catholic. You know, you go in
1:57:19and you say, you know, "Oh Father, I you
1:57:21know, I I murdered somebody today." And
1:57:24the the priest says, "Well, you know,
1:57:26say 12 Hail Marys." And I don't know,
1:57:28I'm not Catholic, but you know, but you
1:57:30can't go out and murder again.
1:57:31So, if you're going to repair, it means
1:57:33that
1:57:35whatever
1:57:36happens between you and your child,
1:57:38you're trying to be a better parent.
1:57:40You're trying to do things differently,
1:57:42right?
1:57:43You can't take advantage
1:57:46of their good graces and keep pushing
1:57:49them away, pushing them
1:57:51um but repair is possible because the
1:57:53brain is plastic and it's always growing
1:57:55and shrinking until it's not. What if
1:57:57I'm 30 years old, for example, and I had
1:58:00a traumatic upbringing? Can I repair
1:58:02myself from the childhood trauma that I
1:58:05experienced between the ages of 0 and
1:58:0710?
1:58:09The way that I would put it is it takes
1:58:10a relationship to cause the trauma and
1:58:13it takes another relationship to repair
1:58:15it.
1:58:17So, the thing that most people don't
1:58:20understand about therapy
1:58:22and why
1:58:24I really recommend psychodynamic
1:58:26psychotherapy,
1:58:28some people would say psychoanalytic
1:58:29therapy,
1:58:31but a more in-depth kind of therapy that
1:58:34lasts longer is because you develop a
1:58:37relationship. It's not that you are
1:58:40healed from some pithy thing that the
1:58:43therapist says. I mean, I wish I was so
1:58:45smart that I could say this and, you
1:58:47know, everybody would say, "You're a
1:58:48You're a genius." And pay me millions of
1:58:51dollars. Doesn't work like that.
1:58:53Therapy requires the consistency of a
1:58:56relationship with the therapist because
1:58:59it's through that therapist seeing you
1:59:02through the ups and downs of your life,
1:59:05reflecting your feelings. It's It's a
1:59:07kind of emotionally reparative
1:59:09experience, but it's not what the
1:59:11therapist says as much as the
1:59:13relationship.
1:59:14The long-standing relationship with a
1:59:16therapist. So, what's healing is the
1:59:18relationship
1:59:20rather than the interpretations. And can
1:59:22that be a romantic relationship that
1:59:24then course corrects you in some regard?
1:59:26Okay, so the idea is that um
1:59:30to really heal, it requires
1:59:31relationships. And those relationships
1:59:34sometimes can be people that you love.
1:59:37The problem with people that you love is
1:59:39that you end up burdening those people
1:59:42with You can burden overburden the
1:59:45people that you love with your
1:59:47conflicts, your internal losses. So, you
1:59:50know, if you find yourself using the
1:59:53people that you love like therapists, if
1:59:55you find that you're using the people
1:59:57that you love
1:59:58um
1:59:59to to deal with past losses,
2:00:03I would say it can it can corrupt the
2:00:05relationship. So, you have to be
2:00:06careful. So, the reason to go to a
2:00:08therapist would be to preserve the
2:00:11relation- It's not that you don't share
2:00:12with the person that you love, but you
2:00:13don't want to overburden your friends or
2:00:16your lovers
2:00:18with the burdens of your childhood
2:00:19trauma, right? So, I always say that
2:00:22therapy becomes like a safe container.
2:00:24You go to therapy, you talk to your
2:00:26therapist, you develop this trusting
2:00:29relationship where where everything is
2:00:32is is left there, so to speak, in that
2:00:36container until you come back. But,
2:00:38therapy is not for everyone. It requires
2:00:40laying down your defenses. It requires
2:00:42the ability to be open and talk about
2:00:45your feelings. There are types of
2:00:47therapies that you can go to if you
2:00:49can't talk about your feelings, things
2:00:51like DBT or CBT, but you know, for the
2:00:54most part, healing therapy requires
2:00:57being open. It requires trusting. You
2:00:59must encounter a lot of people that are
2:01:01in denial about their childhood
2:01:03trauma and the role it's played in
2:01:04shaping who they are. Because you'll
2:01:06have people come to you, I'm sure, that
2:01:07are exhibiting adult symptoms, like
2:01:10maybe they can't form relationships very
2:01:12well.
2:01:13Um
2:01:14maybe they've got other forms of
2:01:15emotional erratic behavior. And there
2:01:16must be occasions where
2:01:19you have a suspicion Yeah.
2:01:21that it's linked to some early
2:01:21experience and they're
2:01:23in denial. I was thinking about people
2:01:25that I know that are
2:01:27have
2:01:28presenting symptoms in their life,
2:01:30really sort of like chronic presenting
2:01:31symptoms, but if you were to ask them if
2:01:34their childhood played a role, they're
2:01:35almost like defensive of their
2:01:37childhood. So, defenses are important.
2:01:41Defenses protect us. So, and people also
2:01:45have a misunderstanding of what therapy
2:01:46is about. The kind of therapy I'm a
2:01:48psychoanalyst. So, we don't People think
2:01:50you go to therapy and they take your
2:01:52defenses away from you. I would never
2:01:54take someone's defenses away unless
2:01:57I could help them to replace them with
2:01:59healthier defenses. So, what we do is an
2:02:02exchange. Like, you don't take your foot
2:02:04off a landmine unless you have a really
2:02:05big rock to put in its place, right? So,
2:02:09if you're going to let go of one
2:02:10defense, you have to trust the person
2:02:12you're working with that you'll find a
2:02:14better healthier defense to protect you.
2:02:16Give me an example.
2:02:18If you used anxiety
2:02:21in childhood, if you used the anxiety
2:02:24to
2:02:26to get attention.
2:02:28What if you complained as a child and
2:02:30you went around and said, you know, oh,
2:02:32I you know, I'm worried about this and
2:02:34I'm and and so, in a way, it serves a
2:02:37purpose. That anxiety, that um Um, that
2:02:40complaining, that expression of emotion,
2:02:42it gets the attention from your parents
2:02:44and suddenly and I do believe that
2:02:47there's a lot of this going on. A lot of
2:02:49kids are breaking down and saying, "I'm
2:02:51anxious. I'm depressed." I do think many
2:02:54of them are, but I also think that many
2:02:56of them
2:02:57need their parents to understand them.
2:03:02So, that would be what I call It's a
2:03:04defense, but it's an unhealthy defense
2:03:07because what ends up happening is that
2:03:09the parents stop being able to hear them
2:03:13because they complain and the anxiety
2:03:16starts to grate on the parents and the
2:03:17parents pull away, right?
2:03:20Um, and so, what would be a better
2:03:22defense for that child is to learn how
2:03:24to express what they need from their
2:03:27parents instead of just saying, "I feel
2:03:29anxious." or "I feel depressed." but to
2:03:32actually say, "You know, Mom and Dad,
2:03:35you don't really spend any time with me.
2:03:37You don't really And when you're home,
2:03:39you're distracted and you're on your
2:03:40computer and your iPads and and you're
2:03:43not You don't really seem that
2:03:44interested in me." And so, that's a
2:03:47better way of going about getting the
2:03:50attention that they need. So, you're
2:03:51never taking something away from someone
2:03:53unless you have something better to give
2:03:55them. And that's a myth of therapy,
2:03:58right? So, people feel that they're
2:04:00going to go into therapy and be left
2:04:01defenseless. Now, defensiveness, which
2:04:04you mentioned, is a different thing
2:04:07entirely.
2:04:08When someone is defensive, it means that
2:04:11it's um, an unhealthy defense. It means
2:04:15that you hit something. So, when you say
2:04:17to your friend, "Do you have any
2:04:18childhood trauma?" and they say,
2:04:20"Absolutely not. What do you
2:04:23That defensiveness, as opposed to
2:04:24someone who says,
2:04:26"You know, I I can't think of any. I
2:04:29Maybe Maybe what You know, so the
2:04:31ability to introspect about the good and
2:04:35the bad and integrate the good and the
2:04:36bad is a is a healthy sign. If you have
2:04:38a friend who can't talk about the
2:04:40sadness of their childhood
2:04:43or a friend who can't talk about the
2:04:45happiness,
2:04:46who can't integrate the good and the bad
2:04:48of their childhood, you know something
2:04:50happened there.
2:04:51And if you have a friend who won't talk
2:04:52at all, then you really know something
2:04:54happened there. You hit
2:04:57a sensitive spot.
2:04:58Aren't daddy issues real? Because the
2:05:00time is thrown around in culture like,
2:05:02"Oh, she has daddy issues." It's
2:05:03typically she has daddy issues, isn't
2:05:05it?
2:05:06Right. So, there's something called
2:05:07Oedipal development, which is
2:05:10sexual development. It's really
2:05:11relational development, but it's sexual
2:05:13development, which is that all little
2:05:15boys
2:05:17fall in love romantically with their
2:05:18mothers and want to marry them. So, all
2:05:20little boys say, "I want to marry you,
2:05:22Mommy. Daddy, get lost." It's sort of
2:05:24like that. And all little girls want to
2:05:27be daddy's little princess and marry
2:05:28daddy and want Mommy to get lost. And
2:05:30it's this period of about
2:05:34oh, three to six. Three to six years
2:05:37old. And I always prepare parents for
2:05:39this. Fathers need to reinforce
2:05:42themselves and feel secure enough so
2:05:44when their little boys who have been
2:05:45their buddies and who have loved them,
2:05:48when their little boys say, "Bye-bye,
2:05:49Daddy. Get lost."
2:05:52They don't react. They don't go into a
2:05:54deep depression. They just they hold it
2:05:56and they say, "Oh, I get it. You love
2:05:58Mommy. That's okay." Same with little
2:06:01girls. If their mothers overreact,
2:06:04become angry at them, reject them, say,
2:06:07"Ugh, you just love your daddy." And so,
2:06:10but if daddies are not present enough
2:06:13for little girls, it doesn't form so our
2:06:16first
2:06:18romantic relationships are with our
2:06:20opposite sex parent. So, as a little
2:06:22boy, your first romantic relationship is
2:06:24with your mother. As a little girl, your
2:06:25first romantic relationship is with your
2:06:27father.
2:06:28If your opposite sex parent is not
2:06:31present at all.
2:06:32There's a loss there.
2:06:35So, you know, sometimes what can happen
2:06:38is if you don't have a present father or
2:06:41if your father is really just absent or
2:06:44if he's physically present but
2:06:45emotionally absent, you spend your life
2:06:48looking for that kind of Oedipal
2:06:50connection.
2:06:51That kind of admiration, that kind of
2:06:53love, that kind of
2:06:55um you know, for someone to love you in
2:06:58the way that a father loves a little
2:07:00girl. But with distrust built in.
2:07:03Well, not necessarily. I mean, sometimes
2:07:06it's too much trust. I mean, if you are
2:07:09hungry
2:07:10and somebody offers you scraps, you'll
2:07:12take the scraps.
2:07:14Right? If you're hungry and somebody
2:07:16says, "Here's some crumbs of a muffin."
2:07:18So, the problem is that But what if they
2:07:22offered me the scraps and sometimes the
2:07:24scraps, as I went to reach for them,
2:07:26walked out
2:07:27and didn't come back?
2:07:28Then I might develop a relationship that
2:07:30it's not safe to trust the scraps
2:07:32because So, that's a father who's
2:07:35negligent. But it still leaves that
2:07:37little It still can leave that little
2:07:39girl with a strong desire to be loved in
2:07:43that way. So, it's like a missing
2:07:46There's a missing piece, right? So,
2:07:48you'd say the romantic relationship with
2:07:50the opposite sex parent
2:07:53is a very important part of our sexual
2:07:55development.
2:07:57And our relational development. And so,
2:07:58it becomes a missing piece for that
2:08:01child who then grows into that adult. Um
2:08:04If a father was abusive
2:08:07to a little girl, then, you know, that
2:08:09little girl may do what we call a
2:08:11neurotic repetition, which is she seeks
2:08:13out abusive men because that's the only
2:08:15kind of love that she knew or
2:08:18understood. So,
2:08:20you know, you have to remember that that
2:08:21children perceive of the relationship
2:08:24with your with their parent as loving,
2:08:26no matter what the parent does to them.
2:08:27I used to work when I was a young social
2:08:29worker in foster care.
2:08:31And the children who were physically
2:08:34abused by their parents and neglected
2:08:37terribly
2:08:38still wanted to be with their mothers
2:08:40and fathers. They didn't want to be
2:08:42taken away because that's that was their
2:08:45mother and father and they perceived of
2:08:46that as love.
2:08:48So, however we're raised, we perceive of
2:08:51that as love. The problem is if it's not
2:08:52healthy love, then we can neurotically
2:08:55repeat or repeat that in our adult
2:08:57lives.
2:08:58Men. Mhm. Young boys and men. I was
2:09:01looking at some stats earlier on that
2:09:03said there's been
2:09:05increased sexual inactivity amongst
2:09:07young men, which is an interesting stat.
2:09:09It's risen to almost 31% of men between
2:09:12the ages of 18 and 24 reporting no
2:09:14sexual activity in the past year. So,
2:09:16that's almost doubled in a in about the
2:09:18space of 18 years.
2:09:20Here's an interesting stat.
2:09:22High suicide rates amongst men. Men
2:09:23account for nearly 80% of all suicides
2:09:25in the US. The highest rate observed
2:09:27among 45 to 64-year-olds. Globally,
2:09:30suicide is the leading cause of death
2:09:32amongst young men and a survey conducted
2:09:34in the UK found that an increasing
2:09:36amount of men feel hopeless and
2:09:39worthless. Mhm. And that are struggling
2:09:42with finding meaning and purpose in the
2:09:43world. Mhm.
2:09:45The plight of young men. You talk in
2:09:47your books and in your work about Yeah.
2:09:49how the role of a man has changed and
2:09:52how that this might not be necessarily
2:09:55productive for the health and well-being
2:09:56of a man. Yeah. We've taken away their
2:09:59purpose. When you take a human being's
2:10:00purpose away,
2:10:02I remember the purpose for men was to
2:10:05protect their family.
2:10:07Was to
2:10:09it was to hunt in the old days, feed
2:10:11their families, but it was also to
2:10:13protect their families.
2:10:15It was to provide for their families.
2:10:18And what we've done in reversing
2:10:21everything
2:10:22is although we raised up women and there
2:10:24are certainly positive things about
2:10:27raising up women.
2:10:28But when we raised up women, we
2:10:30denigrated men. And I have two sons, so
2:10:33this is
2:10:34very personal for me. Um and I also see
2:10:37a lot of young men in my practice, um
2:10:40young adult men. And what I'll say is
2:10:42that they feel discouraged, they feel
2:10:45purposeless,
2:10:47they feel diminished. Um
2:10:51yeah. And there has been something
2:10:53vengeful, I think,
2:10:56about So, the feminist movement was
2:10:59meant to give women choice and to
2:11:01balance off what was imbalanced in
2:11:04society. But there's something vengeful
2:11:06about it, I think at moments. I feel
2:11:09like there's something vengeful about
2:11:10the modern feminist movement, which is
2:11:13let's get them, let's diminish them,
2:11:15let's take over, let's push them out,
2:11:18let's you know, let's beat them up,
2:11:20let's get you know, let's show them
2:11:21who's I mean, something really vengeful.
2:11:24So, it and so for me, the feminist
2:11:26movement was meant to create balance. It
2:11:29wasn't meant to
2:11:31it it wasn't meant to set into play this
2:11:34other kind of imbalance. And
2:11:37you know, more than I think 60% of
2:11:39universities are women now, as well as
2:11:41graduate schools. And so that means and
2:11:44the studies show that men will marry at
2:11:48their educational level or below. Women
2:11:51will only marry at their educational
2:11:53level or above.
2:11:55And by diminishing men so much in terms
2:12:00of our education and professions,
2:12:03we've basically taken men's purpose
2:12:05away. They feel purposeless. And the
2:12:08other thing is, and I'm going to say,
2:12:11when men stay home to nurture their
2:12:13children, now remember as mammals, we
2:12:16have defined roles. That is not
2:12:17instinctual for men to stay home and
2:12:19nurture their young.
2:12:21It It's just It's a reverse of
2:12:22something.
2:12:24And the issue there is that there's an
2:12:27inverse relationship between oxytocin
2:12:31and testosterone.
2:12:33The higher the oxytocin,
2:12:36guess what? The lower the testosterone.
2:12:38Yes.
2:12:39So, if we're staying at home bonding,
2:12:42There's a reason for that. So, mammals,
2:12:46when they are nurturing their young,
2:12:49they don't want somebody mating with
2:12:51them. Go away, right? So, the idea is
2:12:53that when a female
2:12:56nurtures, she doesn't want to have sex.
2:12:59She doesn't want to, right? So, the
2:13:01investment in nurturing pushes away the
2:13:05investment in mating.
2:13:07And this is why I've read so many stats
2:13:08around men's testosterone dropping when
2:13:10they become fathers.
2:13:12Um some
2:13:14Yeah, I was really
2:13:15I I couldn't believe that was true when
2:13:17I read it.
2:13:17It's true.
2:13:18There were some studies to talk about
2:13:20how women's testosterone goes up. Women
2:13:23have testosterone.
2:13:24When they're out in the work world
2:13:26fighting like men, that their
2:13:27testosterone goes up. And men's
2:13:29testosterone when they stay home goes
2:13:31down. Now, what that's doing for sex
2:13:32lives, um there's some research about
2:13:35you know, it That is the next wave,
2:13:39which is what does it do to sex lives?
2:13:41Because men have to perform. They have
2:13:43to get it up. To be crude.
2:13:45Tell me about Um and so, if your
2:13:48testosterone is low, you're not going to
2:13:50get it up, right? Which is why there's
2:13:52all this Viagra and these patches and
2:13:55supplements and, you know, because
2:13:58it's not it's not instinctually normal
2:14:00for husbands to stay home and nurture
2:14:02their children. And that's the
2:14:04inconvenient truth.
2:14:06How that affects men's and women's sex
2:14:08life when women come home from their
2:14:11banking jobs and their law jobs um
2:14:14did their husbands
2:14:16not want to have sex with them and you
2:14:18know, is that breaking up so I mean so
2:14:20this is all the I think this is the next
2:14:22wave of we've reversed things societally
2:14:25so fast.
2:14:28And then we hope that our evolutionary
2:14:31bodily responses
2:14:33are just going to catch up in in merely
2:14:36a century.
2:14:37And it just doesn't evolution doesn't
2:14:40work like that. It takes hundreds if not
2:14:42thousands of years to change our
2:14:44our bodily evolutionary responses,
2:14:46right? Our instinctual responses. So
2:14:49this is you know
2:14:51it's it's problematic. Um and also when
2:14:53men's testosterone goes down they get
2:14:55depressed.
2:14:57So they don't perform sexually well,
2:14:59they get depressed, they feel
2:15:00purposeless.
2:15:03Um they can't do what they're
2:15:05instinctually supposed to do which is
2:15:07provide, protect, hunt, you know, we
2:15:10talk about DEI. I mean, why aren't we
2:15:12talking about DEI when it when it when
2:15:16it comes to men and women? Why aren't we
2:15:18talking about balancing the scales,
2:15:20giving men purpose again?
2:15:22Um and and honestly, we should be
2:15:24talking about what happens to men when
2:15:26they actually do stay home and nurture
2:15:28their young. Does this does to support
2:15:29the idea that if you're at home raising
2:15:32your kids as a man, you have you
2:15:34struggle in the bedroom?
2:15:36So there was some research I know that
2:15:38was going on about that how it affects
2:15:40sex drive, but when your testosterone
2:15:42goes down, it does affect sex drive.
2:15:44Mhm.
2:15:45We're just not talking about it. So I
2:15:47have anecdotal patients. I have a
2:15:49patient who whose whose wife was a
2:15:52hardcore
2:15:53woman in finance and
2:15:56you know, he he couldn't
2:15:59he lost interest in her. He had to go
2:16:02out of the marriage and have affairs
2:16:04with women who were more feminine, who
2:16:06were more
2:16:08so he could feel
2:16:10as if he could play that masculine role.
2:16:11He couldn't do that in his marriage.
2:16:15And so, are we going to see
2:16:18kind of a shift in society as a result
2:16:21of this? We're already seeing it. I
2:16:22mean, the other thing that we're doing
2:16:23is to young boys. Let's talk about what
2:16:25we're doing to young boys.
2:16:28This starts very young.
2:16:30We basically educate young boys in a way
2:16:34that really favors girls. You know, from
2:16:38a very young age we talk about being
2:16:40able to sit quietly and regulate your
2:16:41emotions and not be aggressive and not
2:16:44be impulsive. And these little boys are
2:16:46being diagnosed with ADHD, many of them
2:16:49just for being little boys. Little boys
2:16:51need to run around. They have a lot of
2:16:53physical energy. They have tons of
2:16:54testosterone. When you're like between 3
2:16:56and 6, you have a surge of testosterone
2:16:59and all you want to do is run and jump
2:17:01and play and be outside. And what we're
2:17:03doing, we're putting them in school,
2:17:05making them sit in circle time. So, so
2:17:07we marginalize them, we label them, we
2:17:10say they have a problem, we say that
2:17:12they have ADHD, they have behavioral
2:17:14problems. And in many of them, the
2:17:16stress that I talked about is the stress
2:17:19of making little boys be more like
2:17:20little girls.
2:17:23And that's where it starts. And so then
2:17:25they go into childhood
2:17:27and again, the educational system favors
2:17:30the way girls learn, not the way boys
2:17:32learn. How do boys learn?
2:17:34Boys have attention spans for very short
2:17:38periods of time and then they need lots
2:17:41of physical activity.
2:17:43So, ideally, if you go to and look at
2:17:44the boys' schools, what do they do?
2:17:47They run the boys like running the dogs
2:17:49in the park.
2:17:51They sit for 45 minutes or half an hour,
2:17:53but then the boys get time off to run
2:17:56around. And then they'll sit another
2:17:57half an hour and then they'll run
2:17:59around. I mean, they have like four
2:18:00recess periods a day.
2:18:02And so, that's really better for boys.
2:18:05And little girls have more of a capacity
2:18:07to sit quietly in circle time and and
2:18:10sort of, you know, they're they don't
2:18:12have as much testosterone. They don't
2:18:14have that need to run and jump and play
2:18:15to the same degree that little boys do.
2:18:17They do need to play. We're not letting
2:18:19our kids play, boys and girls,
2:18:21because we're trying to force left brain
2:18:23development on them too early, but
2:18:26we are forcing little boys into this box
2:18:30and they're not doing well in that box.
2:18:33And then they're labeled. They're
2:18:34labeled as having behavioral problems,
2:18:36ADHD, and that label then follows them
2:18:40through childhood, sometimes into middle
2:18:43school, into into high school.
2:18:46Yeah. What would you change? I make you
2:18:48prime minister of the world, president
2:18:51of the world, and you can fix this
2:18:52issue.
2:18:53Oh, I would have little boys educated
2:18:55separately than little girls in the
2:18:57early years. In the early years, I would
2:18:59have boys schools and girls schools, cuz
2:19:01little little girls learn differently.
2:19:02And also, there's been a lot of evidence
2:19:04to show that in the early years,
2:19:07when you do single gender education,
2:19:10little girls will try things, will take
2:19:12risks with things that they wouldn't in
2:19:15front of little boys. And little boys
2:19:16will try things that they wouldn't take
2:19:18risks in front of little girls. Like,
2:19:19little boys are more likely to try art
2:19:21and painting and music.
2:19:23Little girls are more likely to try STEM
2:19:25and math and you know, all these things
2:19:27that we talk about little girls should
2:19:28do. So, the the idea is that um single
2:19:33gender education in the early years is
2:19:35is better for little kids because they
2:19:38learn differently.
2:19:38What about as it relates to men?
2:19:41What would you change to fix the issues
2:19:42you were talking about with testosterone
2:19:44and those kinds of issues?
2:19:48Talk about it. We should be talking
2:19:50about it. We don't talk about this
2:19:51issue. How much how many times have you
2:19:53heard what I just said? People don't
2:19:55talk about the fact that
2:19:57when you raise when if we're going to
2:19:59flip this around and have men be the
2:20:01nurturers, they're going to have pretty
2:20:03low testosterone.
2:20:05You're going to have to supplement their
2:20:07testosterone.
2:20:09And so, you know, and also you take
2:20:12their purpose away evolutionarily and
2:20:14they get depressed.
2:20:16Women have many sources of self-esteem.
2:20:20They have work, they have children,
2:20:23they're relational.
2:20:25And for the most part, historically, men
2:20:28found their self-esteem from meaningful
2:20:31purposeful work and also from protecting
2:20:33their families. So, what we've done is
2:20:35we've taken their purposeful work
2:20:36outside the home away. We've made their
2:20:39purposeful work staying home with
2:20:40children.
2:20:42And
2:20:43you know, we've lowered the
2:20:44testosterone. So, if you look at it and
2:20:46say, we're trying to switch, it's like a
2:20:49social experiment. We're trying to
2:20:50change something
2:20:52that's taken thousands of years of
2:20:54evolution to create in just,
2:20:57you know, less than 100 years. And it's,
2:21:00you know, it's problematic.
2:21:02So, what would I do? I would talk about
2:21:05it. I would have couples talk about it.
2:21:06I think they need to talk about the
2:21:09competitiveness. I think they need to
2:21:10talk about the the envy and the jealousy
2:21:15and and even the the disappointment. I
2:21:18mean, a woman who comes home and sees
2:21:20her husband caring for the children. On
2:21:22one hand, she might say, "Oh, my
2:21:23husband's so sweet and loving and I love
2:21:25that he cares for my children." And on
2:21:27the other hand, she says to her friends,
2:21:29"I wish he was bringing in more money
2:21:30and I wish he was taking care, you know,
2:21:32I wish he was taking care of me." So,
2:21:34it's problematic. There was a
2:21:36longitudinal study done in the
2:21:37Philippines that followed 624 men over
2:21:40almost 5 years and found that those who
2:21:42became fathers experienced a significant
2:21:44decline in testosterone levels.
2:21:46Specifically, newly partnered fathers
2:21:47had a medium decrease
2:21:49of almost 30% in morning testosterone
2:21:52and 35% in evening testosterone, which
2:21:54was significantly greater than the
2:21:55declines observed in single non-fathers.
2:21:58Moreover, fathers who reported spending
2:22:00three or more hours daily in child care
2:22:03had lower testosterone levels compared
2:22:05to those less involved in caregiving.
2:22:08And there's also an impact on
2:22:09co-sleeping, where research indicates
2:22:11that fathers who co-sleep with their
2:22:13children exhibit lower testosterone
2:22:14levels than those who do not. This
2:22:16suggests that close proximity during
2:22:18sleep may further influence hormonal
2:22:20changes associated with caregiving. One
2:22:22of the arguments I've heard before as to
2:22:24why men's testosterone dips if they're
2:22:28new fathers is because it's an
2:22:29evolutionary reason to make us not go
2:22:31out and cheat on our partner and take
2:22:32care of our kids. Well, it's investment
2:22:34in it. So, either you're invested in
2:22:36mating or you're invested in caring for
2:22:40your children.
2:22:41Yes and no, because you still need to
2:22:44have testosterone to have a relationship
2:22:46with your wife, a satisfying
2:22:48relationship. So, and unfortunately,
2:22:50that doesn't stop men from going out and
2:22:52cheating on their wives because a
2:22:54healthy man would say, you know, well,
2:22:57we used to have sex twice a day every
2:22:59day, and now that we have a baby, we
2:23:01only have sex once or twice a week cuz
2:23:04the baby's so small and and a healthy
2:23:06man would say that's enough. I can
2:23:08compartmentalize. I can Right? A less
2:23:11healthy man might say, "I'm going to go
2:23:13out and get it someplace else because I
2:23:15can't get it here." So, yeah. I mean,
2:23:18there's nuance to all the questions
2:23:20you're asking, but what I would say is
2:23:22that testosterone going down a little
2:23:24bit when you have a baby in the bed is
2:23:26fine, but the kind of testosterone we're
2:23:28talking about going down when you stay
2:23:30home and nurture,
2:23:32um
2:23:34we'll see. It could be problematic.
2:23:37My last question is about devices and
2:23:38technology. Yeah. There's been a lot of
2:23:40books written recently and a lot of
2:23:41conversation around the impact that
2:23:42screens, social media, mobile phones
2:23:44have on children. What is your thoughts
2:23:47and philosophy towards raising healthy
2:23:49kids in a world of technology?
2:23:51Well, I think it's the American
2:23:53Pediatric Association says no technology
2:23:56under the age of two for good reason.
2:23:59No iPhones, no iPads, right?
2:24:03Um
2:24:04you want to sit and watch a Mr. Rogers
2:24:07when your baby is two together, a rerun
2:24:10of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, that's
2:24:12fine, but no technology.
2:24:14After that, you want to really regulate
2:24:17that technology. Now, why is that
2:24:18important? Because technology
2:24:22raises dopamine levels in your brain,
2:24:25which is why adults get addicted to it,
2:24:26too. It's very addictive.
2:24:28Um and the problem is that with adults
2:24:32when you have when you look at
2:24:34technology, it does raise your dopamine,
2:24:37but um there were there was some
2:24:39research to show that technology raises
2:24:41the dopamine
2:24:43in an adolescent's brain tenfold to that
2:24:45of of So, in other words, it would be
2:24:48like if you smoked a joint,
2:24:50it would, you know, make you high. If an
2:24:53adolescent smoked the same joint, it
2:24:55would make them 10 times higher. It has
2:24:58to do with the um the the sensitivity of
2:25:01the brain to dopamine
2:25:03and the lack of regulation. So, um the
2:25:06prefrontal cortex is the part of the
2:25:08brain that regulates emotions,
2:25:10and it's not fully developed till about
2:25:1225. So, all that dopamine that has to be
2:25:15regulated is more easily regulated in an
2:25:18adult than an adolescent. So, it's not
2:25:20good because it leads to addiction.
2:25:22Okay. It's not good because uh
2:25:24particularly social media, but all kinds
2:25:27of technology, they they get the
2:25:29amygdala going. Remember that that
2:25:31little almond-shaped stress-regulating
2:25:33part of the brain? It turns on the
2:25:35stress reaction.
2:25:37Um which you don't want to do
2:25:39chronically. There's lots of problems
2:25:41with that. Um and in the case of social
2:25:44media with adolescents, particularly
2:25:46adolescent girls,
2:25:48it takes advantage. I mean, you have to
2:25:50say that this was invented to take
2:25:52advantage. It's not a coincidence.
2:25:55Uh, it's manipulatively created um,
2:25:59because the reason that it's so bad for
2:26:02teenage girls' brains is because
2:26:05the self-consciousness,
2:26:07the perfectionism
2:26:09is all the brain in a hyper-alert state
2:26:12of stress and fear.
2:26:15You're putting those girls and boys into
2:26:19a hyper-vigilant state of fear and
2:26:22stress, right? I have to be perfect. I
2:26:25don't look as good as them. Uh, my my
2:26:27dress isn't as pretty. So, so you're
2:26:30putting children into a fear state and
2:26:32then they they can't separate from the
2:26:34device. It's like they get
2:26:37There was a movie, I think it was called
2:26:39Inception, where you could get stuck in
2:26:43a paradigm. You could get stuck in this
2:26:46fantasy, right? In a in a virtual
2:26:48reality. In a way, they get trapped in
2:26:52this, uh, paradigm of perfectionism,
2:26:55social isolation, self-consciousness,
2:26:58which is all the brain in a
2:27:01hyper-vigilant state of stress. Anxiety.
2:27:04So, not good at all. Not good for
2:27:07adults, much worse for adolescent
2:27:09brains. What is the most important thing
2:27:11we should have talked about today that
2:27:12we didn't talk about so far?
2:27:15Uh, I think we talked about a lot, but
2:27:18um, I think
2:27:19you know,
2:27:21what I would say is that, um,
2:27:24presence is just so critical to children
2:27:28and there's no replacement. This idea
2:27:31that we have as a society
2:27:33that caregiving of children is something
2:27:37that can be generically assigned to
2:27:39others, that you can delegate. Delegate
2:27:42other things to others. Delegate your
2:27:44accounting, delegate your laundry,
2:27:46delegate your cooking. If you're a CEO,
2:27:49delegate everything you can.
2:27:52But, spend time with your children.
2:27:55Your relationship with them,
2:27:57their mental health, depends upon it.
2:28:01And that's not something we say. We say,
2:28:05"Work, work, work, work. Make more
2:28:06money. Everybody work, work, work, work.
2:28:07And and your children will be just
2:28:09fine." Well, clearly, our children are
2:28:11not just fine. What do I do as an
2:28:13employer?
2:28:14I employ lots of people, and I'm
2:28:15thinking, "Shit.
2:28:17Do I need to give people 3 years off
2:28:18when they have a kid? Is that the
2:28:21Well, in my opinion, give them as much
2:28:24time off as you possibly can.
2:28:26Men and women? Men and women. Whoever is
2:28:29the primary attachment figure. I would
2:28:31say whoever's going to really be
2:28:32responsible for caring for that child.
2:28:34Um
2:28:36but then give them options. Give them
2:28:39choices of how to work in the years that
2:28:42their children are very young.
2:28:43Give them options to work part-time, or
2:28:47to share a job, or to work from home
2:28:50half of the week, so they don't have to
2:28:52leave their child, and still they can
2:28:54work. Um
2:28:56give them choices and options that allow
2:28:58them for some flexibility and control.
2:29:01Um if you know that a an employee has
2:29:04young children, accept the fact that,
2:29:07you know, they may need to leave early,
2:29:09and not stay as late as as other people
2:29:11who don't have children. And that's
2:29:13going to make the people who don't have
2:29:14children angry. And you know what?
2:29:16Tough.
2:29:18Cuz that's what those children need.
2:29:20Life isn't fair. It's not always fair.
2:29:23And if you want to have a child, you too
2:29:25could have that.
2:29:27But, the idea of exact parity,
2:29:30tough. Cuz that's what society needs. It
2:29:33needs healthy children. If you're going
2:29:34to have a child and you need to leave
2:29:37every day at 4:00 so you're home for
2:29:39your children,
2:29:40so flexibility, control, options, as
2:29:44much time off in the beginning as
2:29:46possible.
2:29:48You realize that some of the things you
2:29:49say are controversial. Or not Almost all
2:29:51of them.
2:29:53Yeah. Why do you say them anyway?
2:29:55Because somebody asked to.
2:29:58Cuz they're the inconvenient truths that
2:30:00are stopping us from having healthy
2:30:02children
2:30:04who grow into unhealthy adults.
2:30:07And so somebody has to say these things.
2:30:10And if you're too worried about people
2:30:12liking you,
2:30:13then you don't sometimes say what needs
2:30:15to be said.
2:30:17Unfortunately, I don't care if people
2:30:19like me, but I do care
2:30:21that people like their children and want
2:30:23to be with their children.
2:30:25So that's why I say these things.
2:30:27Why is it so personal to you? I can see
2:30:28it in your face.
2:30:31Well, then you'd have to ask me about my
2:30:33own personal story. My personal story,
2:30:35just to wrap it up quickly, is that my
2:30:38own mother was a very loving mother,
2:30:41but could dissociate.
2:30:43And by dissociate, she had a lot of
2:30:45trauma as a child, and I think she
2:30:47managed it by
2:30:49emotionally, she was like a little girl.
2:30:52She's very sweet, but she was like a
2:30:53little girl.
2:30:55And so I couldn't always feel her. I
2:30:57couldn't She was like sand that slipped
2:31:00through my fingers. So I can remember
2:31:02the pain,
2:31:03but she was She was there physically,
2:31:05but I could remember the pain of the
2:31:07absence of her mind.
2:31:09And uh she could feel for me, which is
2:31:12why I have such compassion.
2:31:15But she couldn't think about me. So
2:31:17there's two things parents have to be
2:31:19able to do for children. They have to be
2:31:21able to feel for them. They have to feel
2:31:23empathy for their pain, for their
2:31:25distress. They cannot look away from
2:31:27their children's pain and distress. You
2:31:29cannot look away. You do not have the
2:31:31luxury of looking away from your
2:31:33children's distress. But you also have
2:31:36to be able to think about them and be
2:31:38able to think about who they are. My
2:31:41mother could feel for me, but she
2:31:43couldn't think about me cuz she would
2:31:45dissociate. So, my own personal pain is
2:31:48having had a loving mother who had some
2:31:50limitations.
2:31:52And so, it made me want to be a better
2:31:55mother, but it also made me want to
2:31:57treat people who want to be better
2:31:59mothers and fathers.
2:32:02What were the symptoms that that had on
2:32:03you as a young woman growing up? As an
2:32:06adolescent.
2:32:07I struggled socially and I struggled
2:32:11uh with my identity and personally and
2:32:13you know, self-esteem, I would say. And
2:32:17uh it wasn't until I went into therapy.
2:32:19Um oh, I tried a lot of things in my
2:32:2120s. I worked in television production.
2:32:24I worked in uh
2:32:26uh I worked on Capitol Hill. I worked I
2:32:29worked in many different public
2:32:30relations. And in the end, I found
2:32:33myself sitting in my therapist's office
2:32:36one day
2:32:37and looking around and saying, "This is
2:32:40where I want to be.
2:32:41I want to be I want to do what she does
2:32:44and I want to help people the way she's
2:32:47helped me."
2:32:48So, that relationship with my first
2:32:50therapist and then my second therapist
2:32:53and you know, as psychoanalysts, we have
2:32:56to be in treatment for many, many, many
2:32:58years because the point is
2:33:00we have to work on ourselves so deeply
2:33:04that we don't
2:33:06do harm to patients inadvertently with
2:33:08our own issues. So, we have to be very,
2:33:10as we say, very organized as a person.
2:33:13Um but yeah, so that's my personal story
2:33:16and why mothering is so important to me
2:33:18and the vulnerability of babies is so
2:33:21important to me.
2:33:24Erica, we have a closing tradition on
2:33:25this podcast where the last guest leaves
2:33:26a question for the next guest not
2:33:28knowing who they are leaving it for.
2:33:30Mhm. And the question that has been left
2:33:32for you Okay. is
2:33:35what does your obituary say?
2:33:39Oh my gosh.
2:33:41I want to know who left that.
2:33:43You're going to tell me after.
2:33:46Oh boy, what does my obituary say?
2:33:50Um
2:33:52kind
2:33:55generous
2:33:58um compassionate
2:34:02fervent in her beliefs, stubborn as hell
2:34:07a good friend, a good mother
2:34:10a wonderful wife.
2:34:14Yeah.
2:34:18I think it will.
2:34:20I certainly think it will.
2:34:23And I think there'd also be
2:34:25an additional couple of sentences there
2:34:26that speak to the value that you've
2:34:28given to the world through the work that
2:34:29you do.
2:34:30Now, people might not agree with
2:34:31everything you say because people have
2:34:33lots of different opinions on these
2:34:34subjects.
2:34:35But
2:34:36I'm of the opinion that people who are
2:34:39willing to deliver their thoughts, their
2:34:41truth based on the science that
2:34:43they've experienced and that they've
2:34:45read and what they've studied and the
2:34:46experiences they've had, the clients
2:34:47that they've seen
2:34:49is so unbelievably important because I
2:34:51think if we look back through history,
2:34:52progress has occurred when people have
2:34:54dissented from the accepted narrative.
2:34:57In fact, I probably wouldn't be able to
2:34:59sit here in America as a black man if it
2:35:01wasn't for people who had the courage of
2:35:03their convictions to dissent from
2:35:05certain narratives. And so, I've always
2:35:07I think I've had it hardwired into me
2:35:09that
2:35:10disagreement is productive
2:35:12especially when it's well-meaning. And
2:35:14that's exactly
2:35:16how I see your work. I think that you're
2:35:18challenging a narrative and bringing
2:35:21evidence and a new opinion to the table.
2:35:23A different perspective that I think is
2:35:24very very important for so many. And
2:35:26it's been so interesting for me because
2:35:28I've struggled, you know, I'm
2:35:29approaching that season of life where I
2:35:31become a father and I'm reading all this
2:35:33stuff about leave your kid to cry on the
2:35:35floor in the supermarket or um put them
2:35:38in timeout or um Oh, I am so giving you
2:35:41my number. Yeah, I know, but I I so I've
2:35:43been trying to wade through this storm
2:35:44of like good parenting advice and
2:35:46and stuff and it's it's really
2:35:48wonderful to hear your perspective
2:35:50because it is a counter perspective.
2:35:51It's a perspective that nobody really
2:35:53wants to say out loud.
2:35:55Um
2:35:56and therefore for me it's useful. Thank
2:35:58you, Erica. Thank you so much for your
2:35:59time and generosity today. I really
2:36:00really appreciate it and please um
2:36:02continue to do the work you do and I'm
2:36:03very excited for your upcoming book. I
2:36:05think it's next year, isn't it?
2:36:06It is. About divorces. Mhm. Um if anyone
2:36:09wants to find more of your work, we've
2:36:11got these two exceptional books here.
2:36:12Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood
2:36:14is the First in the First Three Years
2:36:15Matters, which is a wonderful book that
2:36:17was published in 2017, I believe. And
2:36:19then this one here, Chicken Little: The
2:36:20Sky Isn't Falling, Raising Resilient
2:36:22Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety,
2:36:24which was published
2:36:25in '21, I believe. Um I'll link both of
2:36:28these below. I highly recommend you read
2:36:29these books if you're interested in
2:36:31these subjects like I am.
2:36:32Um but where else can people find you?
2:36:35www.komisar,
2:36:37k o m i s a r.com.
2:36:40And also at Attachment Circles, the
2:36:43website should be up and running soon.
2:36:45Uh if you're looking for community and
2:36:47education, um come to Attachment
2:36:51Circles. Great. I'll link both of those
2:36:53below wherever you're listening to this
2:36:54now. Erica, thank you. Thank you for
2:36:56having me. Some of the most successful,
2:36:58fascinating, and insightful people in
2:36:59the world have sat across from me at
2:37:01this table. And at the end of every
2:37:02conversation, I ask them to leave a
2:37:04question behind in the famous Diary of a
2:37:07CEO. And it's a question designed to
2:37:08spark the kind of conversations that
2:37:10matter most, the kind of conversations
2:37:12that can change your life. We then take
2:37:14those questions and we put them on these
2:37:16cards. On every single card, you can see
2:37:19the person who left the question, the
2:37:22question they asked, and on the other
2:37:24side if you scan that barcode, you can
2:37:26see who answered it next. Something I
2:37:28know a lot of you have wanted to know.
2:37:30And the only way to find out
2:37:32is by getting yourself some conversation
2:37:33cards, which you can play at home with
2:37:35friends and family, at work with
2:37:36colleagues, and also with total
2:37:38strangers on holiday. I'll put a link to
2:37:40the conversation cards in the
2:37:41description below and you can get yours
2:37:42at the diary.com.
2:37:44This has always blown my mind a little
2:37:46bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
2:37:49regularly haven't yet subscribed to this
2:37:51show. So, could I ask you for a favor?
2:37:53If you like this show and you like what
2:37:54we do here and you want to support us,
2:37:55the free simple way that you can do just
2:37:57that is by hitting the subscribe button.
2:37:59And my commitment to you is if you do
2:38:00that, then I'll do everything in my
2:38:02power, me and my team, to make sure that
2:38:04this show is better for you every single
2:38:05week. We'll listen to your feedback,
2:38:07we'll find the guests that you want me
2:38:08to speak to, and we'll continue to do
2:38:10what we do. Thank you so much.

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