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"Chemical Imbalance Is A LIE": Michael & The Good Doctor | Dr. Josef — Transcript

by Michael Knowles · 20,864 words · 3,098 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:02[music]
0:03We've done spinal taps. We've done
0:05functional MRI scans which are realtime
0:08scans of [music] the human brain kind of
0:10firing. Are there any differences
0:12between a depressed person and a
0:13non-depressed [music] person? No.
0:15>> What about the relation of these kinds
0:18of drugs [music] to violent acts and to
0:23aberant ideologies? I've noticed a major
0:26uptick [music] in violence from the
0:28left, notably associated with
0:31transgenderism [music] and in the lion
0:34share of these cases, they're on SSRIs.
0:36Is it safe for 15 to 20% of our
0:38population to be on these [music] drugs?
0:40The FDA is sitting on this because they
0:42are trying to cover up one of the
0:44biggest scandals [music] in modern
0:46medical history. That's horrifying.
1:00>> [music]
1:01>> About one in five women in the United
1:03States is hooked on depression pills,
1:05powerful psych drugs
1:08that we don't really know all that much
1:09about. And in my experience, the women
1:12remain crazy as ever. So, I have brought
1:15on an expert to tell me what these drugs
1:17really do. That is Dr. Ysef Wit Durang.
1:22Have I pronounced that very Germanic
1:24name correctly?
1:25>> You have. You have.
1:26>> Dr. Ysef, thank you so much for coming
1:27on the show.
1:28>> Thank you for having me, Michael.
1:29>> So, you have gone really viral recently
1:33for discussing
1:35a lot of medical misconceptions, but
1:37especially SSRI drugs. I have known a
1:40lot of people on these drugs. I'm sure
1:41the entire audience knows a lot of
1:43people on these drugs. Some of them
1:45might be on the drugs themselves.
1:48I read a statistic that it's one in five
1:50American women are hooked on these kinds
1:52of drugs.
1:54>> Yes. So [snorts]
1:56it's it's actually one in five
1:57Americans. And so one in five
1:59>> one in five Americans including men
2:00>> including men are on psychiatric
2:02medications right now um specifically if
2:05we talk about anti-depressants which
2:07most commonly are SSRIs that's around
2:1014% of the population and about 18% of
2:13women um on SSRIs. And if you go up in
2:17age range to around uh when when women
2:20are 60 and older, it's one in three are
2:23on psychiatric medications at that
2:25point. It's it's a huge amount. I mean,
2:27it's it's it's so big that people are
2:29either taking them or they know someone
2:30in their immediate family who's on them.
2:32Everyone knows someone who is on one of
2:34these medications. Now,
2:35>> okay, before we get to the other types
2:37of psych drugs, I want to focus in on
2:39SSRIs.
2:41What,
2:43forgive my ignorance, what is an SSRI?
2:45>> So, it's a selective serotonin reuptake
2:48inhibitor and it's a type of drug that
2:50was designed to block the reuptake of
2:53serotonin uh between the neurons. So
2:56effectively uh serotonin is a chemical
2:59messenger that um allows neurons to
3:02communicate with one another and if you
3:04block the re-uptake it builds up in the
3:06synaptic clft which is the space between
3:08the neurons and um that has a drug
3:11effect. So what that drug effect
3:13typically does is it is a numbing effect
3:16or an emotionally constricting effect
3:19and that's what leads to that
3:21therapeutic benefit where people will
3:23feel less emotions. This is what I've
3:25heard about SSRIs and also what I've
3:28observed is that it it's not that it
3:31fixes people's emotions or corrects
3:33their emotions. It just blunts their
3:37emotions. Right.
3:38>> Yeah. And that is kind of the, you know,
3:42one thing that people, that is really
3:44important for people to understand is
3:46that that is actually what they're doing
3:48because for the last three decades,
3:50we've been lying to people about how
3:52these medications work. We've been
3:55telling them that they fix a chemical
3:56imbalance. And it's something that I
3:59want to lay out because it's really
4:00important because there is a distinction
4:03between saying, "Hey, there's something
4:04wrong with your brain. You have low
4:06serotonin. I'm going to give you a drug
4:08to kind of bring it up to the normal
4:10level. You know, case closed.
4:12Everything's fine. It's like giving a
4:14type 1 diabetic insulin. We've
4:16essentially just corrected a biological
4:19problem and all the things that flow
4:21from that should be fine. That was the
4:23story sold to Americans through the
4:25chemical imbalance. I
4:26>> I remember the TV commercials that say
4:28depression is caused by a chemical
4:30imbalance in the brain, so take this
4:32drug and it'll fix it.
4:34>> Exactly. Yeah. Um, and the thing is a
4:38lot of people and it's, you know, it it
4:40really is quite an evil lie because many
4:43people they're okay with that. They're
4:45okay with taking a medicine for a
4:47biological medical problem. But if you
4:49were to say to someone, the way these
4:51drugs actually work is by numbing you
4:55and constricting your emotional range.
4:58All of a sudden, you start thinking
4:59about your grandma who says, "You really
5:02shouldn't sweep problems under the rug.
5:04you know, you should deal with them. You
5:06should address them. And intuitively, a
5:07lot of Americans, they know that's not a
5:10great solution uh for problems to kind
5:12of just just numb them with something
5:14else. And so, we've been selling this
5:16lie um that they're not really drugs
5:19that numb things. They are drugs that
5:21fix a medical problem in your brain.
5:24>> So, okay. So, the synapses are
5:25communicating and the SSRI block the
5:30serotonin. So, the serotonin gets stuck
5:33in the middle. Yep. and numbs up your
5:35brain. And serotonin is what? Serotonin
5:37is just like a happy chemical.
5:39>> Yeah. It's it's it's one of the the main
5:41neurotransmitters in the brain that
5:43control your your mood, your
5:44personality, your emotions.
5:46>> Okay.
5:47>> Yeah.
5:47>> So, when when did this all start? I
5:50remember when the commercials first came
5:51on in the '9s or 2000s or whenever.
5:54>> When when were SSRIs first discovered,
5:58prescribed, popularized? So, um, we've
6:01had anti-depressants since the ' 50s.
6:04Um, but a lot of those older types, uh,
6:07they they were lethal and overdose. They
6:09were kind of complicated to use and so
6:11they were used really sparingly. But
6:13then Prozac came out in 1987. That's
6:17when it entered the US market. And and
6:20Prozac
6:22wasn't uh, you know, you couldn't
6:23overdose on that medication. So, it had
6:25a much safer um, a much safer safety
6:28profile as well.
6:30And so that drug became very successful
6:32in the early 90s. It was the drug that
6:34made Eli Liy. Eli Liy was not a big
6:37company before Prozac. I mean it's the
6:39biggest pharmaceutical company now uh
6:41with the GLP1s. But Prozac came onto the
6:44market. Eli Liy becomes a billiond
6:46dollar company within a couple of years
6:48and we get flooded with a lot of they're
6:51called meto drugs. So after Prozac comes
6:53out, you get Paxel, you get Lexapro, you
6:55get Zoloft, all of these different SSRIs
6:58kind of follow Prozac's success. And the
7:02effect of that has has essentially been
7:05um brainwashing or propaganda um where
7:10the commercial interests of all of these
7:12billion dollar companies has changed how
7:15we think about these drugs. I mean
7:17because they have been pushing this
7:18narrative that depression is a chemical
7:20imbalance. um that and and we have drugs
7:24to essentially fix it. And so that's
7:26that's how they've kind of wrestled
7:28control of this narrative where before,
7:30you know, if you're anxious or
7:31depressed, like in the ' 80s, people
7:33would say, "Hey, let's look at your
7:34relationships. Let's look at your
7:36purpose. Let's look at your physical
7:38health." You know, are you dealing with
7:40problems of loneliness? The '90s comes
7:42along and there's this huge commercial
7:44interest and they take control of the
7:46narrative. Depression is now a medical
7:48problem that needs a medical solution.
7:50and and if you say anything otherwise
7:53um you're dangerous, you're
7:54unscientific, you're kind of like a
7:56Neanderthal like in terms of your
7:58understanding. Uh you're in the past and
8:01and they've essentially been silencing
8:03these other views ever since then. So
8:05between the modern liberal advice of
8:07just ply yourself with heavy psych drugs
8:10and the kind of traditional advice of
8:13take stock of your life and try to fix
8:14things that are able to be fixed and you
8:17know keep your eyes up to God and have a
8:18step upper lip.
8:20>> There there are the hippies in the
8:22middle who say that if you you know I
8:24don't know do a rain dance around the
8:26root of turmeric or something and like
8:28eat a few herbs then then that will fix
8:30your depression symptoms. I'm being only
8:33slightly hyperbolic here, but what do
8:35you make of the uh so-called natural
8:37remedies?
8:38>> It's
8:39>> Okay.
8:39>> Yeah. [laughter] And and and they're
8:41actually much closer to the liberals who
8:44are saying yourself with medications
8:46because [laughter]
8:47>> um there's this whole thing of like
8:50neutrauticals. I don't know if you've
8:51ever heard that.
8:52>> No, I like that word, but I I don't I've
8:54never heard of So they they you know
8:56adaptogens, neutrauticals, supplements
8:58and so and so these natural you know
9:00these natural hippie types they'll say
9:02you know take ashwagandha take St.
9:04John's St. John's ward, take lion's
9:06mane, take really high doses of um
9:09>> what's the one that turns people blue?
9:11>> Colloidal silver.
9:12>> Colloidal silver.
9:13>> Yeah.
9:14>> And so and then they and then they or it
9:17could even be cannabis. You know,
9:18they'll say these are natural things.
9:19They are safe, you know, don't worry
9:21about them. They're not like those nasty
9:22pharmaceuticals.
9:23>> Yeah. Yeah.
9:24>> But they are. I mean, the only
9:25difference is that they're not coming
9:27from a pharmaceutical company. People
9:29use supplements like psychiatric drugs
9:31because they're actually quite powerful.
9:33I mean, these these these chemicals,
9:35they have real neurological changes.
9:37They they they can sedate you. They can
9:39energize you. They can numb you.
9:41>> Wow. I thought you were going to say
9:42it's BS because it's, you know, you're
9:44just chewing on a piece of mint or
9:46something and No, no, you're saying,
9:47"No, it actually it is powerful and you
9:49should treat it like a drug.
9:50>> You should treat it like a drug, but you
9:51shouldn't lie to yourself and say, "Oh,
9:53this is a natural thing. I'm not going
9:54to be dealing with the problems of
9:56tolerance. I'm not going to be
9:57>> where it wears off over time. I'm not
9:59going to have to worry about the fact
10:00that I'm sweeping legitimate problems
10:03under the rug. And I I think they they
10:04kind of delude themselves into thinking
10:06it's safe because it's not coming from a
10:08pharmaceutical company.
10:09>> Right.
10:09>> Yeah.
10:10>> I I heard one time someone argue that
10:12anything that's natural has to be good
10:14for you. I thought like many poisons are
10:18natural. What are you What are you
10:19talking about?
10:20>> Look at what's happening with cannabis
10:21now. I mean I feel like I mean we've
10:23been legalizing cannabis. We have hypo
10:26and this is not the ditch weed that
10:27people used to smoke a long time ago.
10:29It's like 40 times more potent and
10:31cannabis is one of the biggest gateway
10:33drugs into psychiatry. Like if you're
10:36using high potency cannabis products and
10:38you have a psychotic um a bad trip, you
10:40know, a psychotic break on it,
10:43>> cannabis more so than meth, LSD, cocaine
10:47is is more toxic to the brain that you
10:50are more likely to convert to an ongoing
10:52psychotic state. I that I I knew that
10:56marijuana was related with to psychosis
10:59and I've just noticed that most of my
11:01pthead friends I'm going to get so much
11:03push back for this but most of my pthead
11:05friends insist they have no problem no
11:07addiction it's all it's totally great
11:08for you but they they increasingly get
11:10problems but I've never heard that it's
11:13worse for the brain than LSD
11:15>> when it comes to trans when it comes to
11:18someone who's had a psycho a bad trip
11:20transitioning to a bipolar or a
11:22schizophrenia diagnosis
11:24And so essentially what that is with um
11:27marijuana is that bad trip for some
11:31people that's not a temporary thing.
11:32Like it actually hurts them. Think about
11:34it as a serious toxic reaction that can
11:36actually lead to enduring problems over
11:38time. And I know this cuz I've seen many
11:40of these patients. They'll have a
11:41psychotic episode on cannabis and it
11:43takes them sometimes a year, even two
11:45years to feel fully back to themselves.
11:47Now, during that year to twoyear period
11:49where their brain is recovering and
11:50they're still having periods of paranoia
11:52and mood instability, doctors will
11:55diagnose them with bipolar and
11:57schizophrenia and put them on
11:58psychiatric medications and tell them
12:00that they have like a brain disease when
12:02they've actually just had a neurological
12:03injury from the high potency cannabis
12:06products that they're consuming. And
12:08yes, it is more dangerous in that
12:10respect. It is more dangerous than meth
12:12and LSD and cocaine. So okay there are
12:15two views on depression. One being that
12:19it's uh basically just kind of made up
12:22and it's people who are engaging in
12:23aberant behavior or who have suffered a
12:25lot of misfortune and haven't been able
12:26to pull themselves out of it. And so
12:28they they've got these lifestyle
12:29problems that they're pretending is
12:32neurological or chemical or something
12:33and then they pop the pills. The other
12:35side says, "No, no, it's just hardwired
12:38into your brain and your lifestyle has
12:40absolutely nothing to do with it and you
12:42might be uh making all sorts of bad
12:44choices, but that you know that your
12:46choices don't affect anything." And
12:49is one of those views correct or is
12:52there is the answer necessarily in the
12:54middle?
12:55>> So,
12:57well, let's let's start with the the
12:59biological one. So, we've been looking
13:02for this chemical imbalance for decades
13:05now. And I want to talk about some of
13:07the ways we've done this because I think
13:09there may be some people listening to
13:11this who are just like, "Are you sure
13:12it's not a chemical imbalance? They've
13:13heard it so much." We've done um spinal
13:17taps where we sample the fluid around um
13:21the brain and we look for differences in
13:24the serotonin metabolites. You can
13:26directly measure that. You get a group
13:27of depressed patients and non-depressed
13:29patients. Are there any difference? No.
13:32>> We've done autopsies of uh of the brains
13:35of people who have taken their lives uh
13:37depressed patients and compared them to
13:38non-depressed people. Are there any
13:40changes in receptor density uh in those
13:43brains under pathology slides? No
13:45difference. We've done functional MRI
13:48scans which are realtime scans of the
13:50human brain kind of firing and showing
13:53all of the metabolic changes in the
13:54brain. Are there any differences between
13:56a depressed person and a non-depressed
13:58person? No.
14:00>> There has never been any biological
14:03signature to differentiate um depressed
14:06for non-depressed.
14:07>> So are are you therefore saying that
14:09this phrase clinical depression does not
14:13signify a real thing?
14:14>> It does not signify a biological
14:16problem. Usually people say clinical
14:18depression when they I'm very depressed.
14:21you know, that's it's it's just a I
14:24think a way to say, hey, this is really
14:26serious. You know, take this seriously.
14:28Um, but I want to have a little bit of
14:30nuance here because I'm not trying to
14:32say that there's no genetic loading for
14:34anxiety and depression. I mean, we
14:36probably know some people who are worry
14:38warts. I mean, they were just born that
14:39way. You know, they're a bit more
14:40neurotic. They have a tendency to be
14:42more depressed.
14:44That is just normal human personality.
14:46We we we exist on a bell curve and a
14:48spectrum. We're going to have more
14:49extroverts. we're going to have more
14:51worry warts. Um, but that's hardly a
14:53disease. You know, imagine telling, you
14:56know, the these worry warts, you have a
14:57diseased brain. There's something wrong
14:59with you. This is just normal human
15:02variation. Um, and so I think that is
15:06possible. And yes, maybe there is some
15:08medical problem that we haven't found
15:10out about depression. Um, but we we
15:15essentially we haven't found it yet. And
15:16so I think to go around and tell people
15:18that we really know depression is this
15:20biological problem is just a complete
15:22lie right now where we actually have um
15:26a lot of evidence that shows that you
15:28know depression is correlated with
15:30loneliness. It's correlated with um you
15:33know life dissatisfaction, work
15:35dissatisfaction and a lot of the things
15:37that are very intuitive.
15:39>> Okay. So if that's the case, then if if
15:42someone is uh depressed, and there
15:44plenty plenty of people around today who
15:45say they're they're depressed or
15:47clinically depressed, meaning just very
15:49very depressed,
15:51they should not go seek a chemical is
15:53what you're saying. They should just
15:54seek um behavioral therapy.
15:57>> Yeah. Talk therapy.
15:59>> Yeah. I and one of the big injustices
16:01that I really worry about is that we
16:03actually rob people of that opportunity
16:06>> because, you know, you're upset, you're
16:08depressed, you go online and you're
16:10going to see messages you have a
16:12chemical imbalance or someone on TikTok
16:14or, you know, a celebrity influencer
16:16talking about how, you know, SSRI saved
16:18their lives. You go, okay, maybe that
16:20could be something that's wrong with me.
16:22It sort of recasts how you view your
16:24problems. You go and see a doctor. You
16:27see your family medicine doctor. This is
16:28where 80% of the drugs come from. Not
16:30psychiatrists, just family medicine
16:32doctors.
16:33>> You have a 15-minute visit where you
16:35get, you know, 5 to 7 minutes of
16:37facetime and they tell you, "Hey, you
16:40might have depression and we think it
16:41might be biological and take this
16:44medication." And so you take the
16:46medication
16:48and while you take it, you sort of
16:50you're ingesting along along with the
16:52drug that numbs your emotions a whole
16:54ideology about where the problems come
16:56from
16:57>> and it robs you of the opportunity to
17:00fix other parts of your life. Um because
17:02if you think about depression and
17:03anxiety as um as essentially signals
17:06like a smoke detector in your brain
17:08that's saying, "Hey, maybe you need to
17:10look at your health. you know, maybe you
17:11need to cut down on your drug use or
17:13your cannabis use, you know,
17:14relationships work, all that kind of
17:15stuff. Instead of listening to that
17:17signal from the smoke alarm, when you
17:19take that drug,
17:21you're essentially numbing it and and
17:23you can go years or sometimes even
17:25decade decades not addressing real
17:28legitimate problems in your life um that
17:32simply fester there in the background
17:34while you're on the drug. Do you think
17:36there is any circumstance in which
17:38doctors should prescribe SSRI
17:41specifically or anti-depressant drugs
17:44more broadly?
17:45>> Yes. Yeah, I do. I think there are cases
17:48for that. Um but they should be um and
17:51this is I mean it's common sense.
17:54They should only be used after you've
17:56you've exhausted all of the non-drug
17:58approaches. And so if someone comes in
18:00and they're, you know, anxious and
18:02depressed and you and you go through,
18:03you know, relationships, purpose,
18:05meaning your physical health, you know,
18:06you you get them off drugs and alcohol,
18:09um, and you really take the time to get
18:11to know them and understand their life.
18:13This never happens, by the way.
18:15[laughter]
18:15>> No doctors exception.
18:19I know women, especially women of a
18:23certain age, have been going to their
18:25therapist
18:26>> for 30 years. They only ever seem to get
18:28crazier and there now I'm sure the
18:30therapist hasn't actually gotten to know
18:32them very well. Obviously not. They
18:33haven't worked on the symptoms. But but
18:35yes, in modern medicine, as you say, you
18:38go in, you get five minutes with the
18:39doctor, maybe you say, "Okay, here's a
18:41script. See you later. Bye."
18:42>> Yeah. Yeah.
18:43>> And so so it doesn't happen. But let's
18:46let's say hypothetically you you you did
18:49that and they had great relationships
18:50and they're actually working a job that
18:52provides purpose and meaning. They're
18:54not using drugs. You know, they're
18:55moving their body. They're getting out
18:57in the sun. They're eating a nice clean
18:58diet. If you have someone in front of
19:00you that's still suffering after that, I
19:03I think you should use a medication. Why
19:05not use a medication in that point?
19:07Because you've exhausted all of the
19:08other non-drug means. You want that
19:10person to function. You want them to be
19:12able, you know, um, you know, to to live
19:15a productive life. And so, I have no
19:18problem with the use of the drugs after
19:20you've exhausted the common sense
19:22non-drug approaches to to treating
19:24anxiety and depression. What about the
19:25people who are currently on them? This
19:27huge percentage of Americans who are
19:29currently on SSRIs.
19:32>> One, other than uh restraining the range
19:35of emotion, are there other nasty side
19:37effects that come about as a result of
19:39this other than just sweeping the
19:40problems under the rugs and which is a
19:42big enough uh negative side effect? And
19:45two, would you advise them or many of
19:48them or all of them to get off the SSRI?
19:52So, it's a complicated uh question. So,
19:56let's let's if it's okay, let's talk
19:58about some of the side effects first.
20:00And you know, there's a lot of them.
20:03>> One of the things that I worry about the
20:05most with these medications is they can
20:07actually make some people worse in the
20:09long run.
20:10>> Um, our brains,
20:12our brains are not designed to be
20:14exposed to drugs on a daily basis, uh,
20:18for years at a time. Um, and I'll take a
20:20little aside here just to say most
20:23people aren't aware that these
20:24medications
20:26are studied for 12 weeks to get
20:27approval. There's never been a study
20:29that's gone any longer than a year.
20:32>> And these are drugs which clearly wear
20:34off over time. Um, our brain is not
20:36static. It doesn't like that you're
20:38taking a drug that disturbs
20:40neurotransmitter function which doesn't
20:42just control your mood. It controls your
20:44heart, your digestion, your immune
20:46system. And so homeostasis kicks in. the
20:48body pushes it back against the drug and
20:51the effect wears the effect diminishes
20:53over time. Um, and so one I think it's
20:57kind of very bad that we only studied
20:59these drugs for 12 weeks um 12 weeks to
21:02a year and then we put people on them
21:04for multiple years when they clearly
21:05wear off over time. And so that's the
21:07first thing. [gasps]
21:10Not only when do they wear off over
21:11time, what I see in many patients after
21:14they've been on them for several years
21:16is they'll develop a trifecta of
21:18symptoms. Um, specifically with the
21:20SSRIs, people start to have low energy,
21:23they start to get brain fog, and they
21:25start to feel very flat. And that is
21:28just the effect of being on these drugs
21:30long term. Um now unfortunately
21:33they will go and see their doctor at
21:35this time and the doctor will say well
21:38they won't say oh you know this is a
21:41side effect from chronic SSRI use and
21:43you're kind of getting worse you're
21:44numbed out you've got cognitive um fog
21:46now they'll say your depression is
21:49evolving you've got treatment resistant
21:51depression you know these are mysterious
21:53mental illnesses and we need to put you
21:54on another drug and so it starts this
21:56prescribing cascade where the drugs when
21:59taken long term
22:01cause side effects that make the person
22:02worse and then they take another drug
22:04and all of a sudden you start
22:05accumulating psychiatric diagnoses and
22:07you end up on five or six different
22:09drugs. I think that's one of like the
22:11biggest risks and and why we've seen the
22:13use of these medications balloon over
22:15time because I do think they're making
22:17some people worse.
22:18>> What are some of the other drugs that
22:19that the doctors will put you on then?
22:22Um, so if you take an SSRI and it
22:24triggers a manic episode, uh, where you
22:26become disinhibited, you know,
22:28hypersexual, you start gambling, maybe
22:31you become hostile or aggressive,
22:33they'll say, "You have bipolar
22:35disorder." And they put you on
22:36antiscychotic medications. Um, and so,
22:40um, and those are those are heavy drugs.
22:43I mean, they have a lot of stopping
22:44power. They're really sedating, and your
22:46life really goes in a different
22:48direction once you've once you're put on
22:49that. you can gain like a 100 pounds on
22:51some of these antiscychotics. It can be
22:53completely disfiguring for some people
22:55and so it can get out out of hand really
22:58really quickly.
22:59>> So
23:01if you're telling them you know not not
23:03to be doing this uh you know because of
23:06all these side effects then for the
23:07people who are currently on them do you
23:09would you give a blanket recommendation
23:12get off?
23:13[sighs]
23:14I think
23:16you need to check in with yourself and
23:19you need to look at your life and just
23:21say [snorts]
23:24so
23:26the drugs do work. So they do have this
23:28numbing effect, right? But if you pull
23:31that drug away, you can throw someone
23:32into a very anxious state. Let's say
23:34they have a lot of issues going on in
23:36their life already. What do you have
23:40in place of that? And so before just
23:42coming off these medications, you need
23:44to think about, you know, why did I get
23:46on it in the first place? And so if you
23:49I think if you let's say you just got on
23:51it cuz you went through a divorce or a
23:53job loss or you moved and you were
23:54lonely, some kind of stressor at one
23:56moment of time which you've recovered
23:58from, you don't need to be on that drug
24:00anymore. Like come off it. Do a gradual
24:02slow safe taper. But if you had I mean I
24:06don't know, maybe you're in a
24:07relationship that's having a lot of
24:09problems. Maybe you're maybe you really
24:11don't like what you're doing at work.
24:12Maybe you have a whole bunch of physical
24:14health problems or you're you know
24:15you're you're using drugs and alcohol
24:17and it's leading to this anxious state.
24:19You need to address that first because
24:20if you just pull that drug off, you're
24:22also going to send your life into a tail
24:24spin. So I recommend that kind of
24:26practical approach just just thinking
24:28about, you know, what can you replace it
24:30with? But for the majority of Americans,
24:33for the majority of people on these
24:34medications, and just just from my
24:36clinical experience and doing this for
24:38over 10 years now, I think that 95% of
24:41people on these medications shouldn't
24:44have been put on them in the first
24:45place, and they they don't actually need
24:47them.
24:47>> So, if it's dangerous to quickly come
24:50off these types of drugs,
24:53how are you supposed to do it? If you
24:54want to get off these kinds of drugs,
24:55what's the safest way to do it?
24:57>> Sure. So there's a
25:00the safest way to come off these drugs
25:02is without exposing yourself to severe
25:05withdrawal. Now one of the big problems
25:07is is many doctors have been telling
25:09patients for years that um the
25:12withdrawal is mild and it goes away in a
25:14couple of weeks. And because of this
25:16they'll get people who have been on
25:18these drugs for years, sometimes
25:19decades, and they'll taper them off over
25:21a couple of months. And um and that can
25:24be really dangerous. Now, for some
25:27people, they can do it. You know, their
25:28brains are very elastic and they come
25:30off quickly and um you know, it's very
25:33difficult for a month or two and then
25:35they're fine. But you may have uh may
25:37recall I mentioned the issue of
25:38protracted withdrawal with benzo and
25:40anti-depressants. There is a fairly
25:42large group of people that if you expose
25:45them to these severe withdrawal
25:47symptoms, they actually end up
25:48developing this neurological damage. And
25:51so the way to actually avoid the risk of
25:54that is to is to taper off slowly. Now
25:58what I generally recommend for people is
26:00to start with a 5 to 10% reduction and
26:03then every month just assess how you're
26:05going. You know if that was a good
26:06reduction for you, you could do the same
26:08one. Um or you could increase it. You
26:10could say now I'm going to do 10%. Now
26:11I'm going to do 15%. And go down in
26:15these very gradual steps. Many people
26:18when they get to the very end of the
26:19taper they they struggle greatly. This
26:22is because at that point you've removed
26:25so much of the drug it's like you don't
26:28have a lot of residual drug floating
26:29around in the brain. And so when you
26:31take another bit out you actually
26:33disconnect a lot of the receptors. And
26:35so when people get to the very end of
26:37the taper, if they're struggling, I
26:39would just want them to know that that
26:40is normal and they should go up to the
26:42previous dose before they had the
26:44withdrawal symptoms and ask their doctor
26:46if they can give them a liquid version
26:48of the medication.
26:49>> And the reason I asked them to do that
26:51is you can draw up um [snorts] the drug
26:54in a syringe. And the great thing about
26:56syringes is you can get like a 1 ml
26:58syringe and there's like a 100 spaces on
27:00the side. It allows you to lower down
27:02that last amount with a lot of
27:04precision. And so I think uh finishing a
27:07taper with liquid is also a really great
27:09thing to do if someone's struggling to
27:11come off. As for the time frame, um for
27:14many patients it can take them uh a
27:16year, sometimes up to two years to come
27:18off these medications if they've been on
27:20them for a really long time. And so I
27:22always tell people not to not to rush
27:24it. Take your time. Um you should be
27:27able to come off without having severe
27:29withdrawal and that's that's the way to
27:31do it. What about the relation of these
27:34kinds of drugs to violent acts and to
27:39aberant ideologies? I guess I'll put my
27:41cards on the table. I've noticed a major
27:44uptick in violence from the left
27:47>> notably [clears throat] associated with
27:49transgenderism, a very serious
27:51psychiatric condition. And in the lion
27:55share of these cases, basically every
27:58time it seems that we learn the
28:00information,
28:01>> they're on SSRIs.
28:02>> Yeah. Yeah.
28:03>> Is there a relationship?
28:05>> Um, yes. So, I I I believe there is.
28:08Now, this has been shut down in the
28:11media uh for a really long time. Um, and
28:16sometimes people don't believe me when I
28:18say this. You can look at the drug
28:20labels from the FDA right now and they
28:23already list these side effects in
28:25there. If you look at Aderall for
28:26instance, there's a whole section in the
28:28warnings and precautions which is the
28:30highlighted section of important risks
28:32in the drug label that the drug can
28:33cause hostility um because they see it a
28:36lot in kids. If you look at Ailify, it's
28:39an antiscychotic. Homicidal ideation is
28:42listed in the drug label. If you look at
28:44the SSRI,
28:46the drug label already says they can
28:47cause um suicidal ideiation, suicidal
28:50behavior, um aggression, and violence.
28:53These are already recognized risks that
28:56the FDA has ratified and the
28:58pharmaceutical companies have put in
28:59their labels. Um but then when it comes
29:02to the issue of mass violence, we all of
29:05a sudden I feel like the media pretends
29:07that these drugs, you know, there's no
29:08way that these drugs could do it. And if
29:11you bring it up, they try and intimidate
29:13you. They say, um, you're stigmatizing
29:16the mentally ill. You are, um, you know,
29:18you're you're you trying to make an
29:20excuse. You're trying to scare people
29:22away from it. They try and shut you
29:23down. Um, but when we look at uh um
29:28legal cases as well, this has been used
29:31as a defense by um in the court of law
29:34and it has been found reasonable by
29:36judges and juries. um that it reduces
29:38culpability because they're on the psych
29:40drugs that were supposed to help them
29:42but actually made it worse and you're
29:45not even allowed to acknowledge that the
29:46drugs made it worse.
29:47>> Yeah. Well, let me talk about some of
29:50these cases um because they they are
29:52shocking cuz most people are thinking
29:54about school shootings when they're
29:55worried about these medications. So, one
29:57of the cases was with a gentleman called
30:00Donald Shell in Wyoming in the '90s. Um
30:03he had previously taken u Prozac an SSRI
30:06and become agitated on it. Another
30:08doctor put him on a different SSRI later
30:11on called Paxel. This never should have
30:14happened because it's the same drug
30:15class. If you got worse on the on on
30:17Prozac, you shouldn't have been put on
30:19Paxel. But the doctor didn't know he had
30:21that prior history. Within a week of
30:23going on Paxel, uh Don killed his wife,
30:28he killed his daughter, and he killed
30:29his granddaughter. He shot all three of
30:31them and then he killed himself. Um, now
30:35the surviving uh son-in-law, Tobin, took
30:38out a a a claim against Smith Klein.
30:41This was before they became Glacos Smith
30:43Klein
30:44>> and uh he sued them and uh they were
30:47found 90 uh 80% liable for what had
30:49happened due to failure to warn about
30:51the fact that it could cause homicidal
30:53and um suicidal behavior. They appealed
30:56it, but the appeal did not work and it
30:58stood. And this has happened not just in
31:00this case. There have been several other
31:02cases where judges and juries have found
31:05that uh if not for the person taking the
31:08psychiatric medication, this act of
31:10violence would not have happened.
31:14>> I had actually never heard of that.
31:16>> Yeah.
31:17>> Are there more recent examples of courts
31:19finding this or have the courts started
31:21to turn on it too?
31:23Um the most recent one that comes to
31:26mind um and some of this stuff is pretty
31:28gruesome. So you know yeah but there was
31:31a there's a g gentleman David Carmichael
31:33who again very similar story was put on
31:36paxel I believe and he actually killed
31:38his son um and uh while he was in a um
31:42psychosis because of it. Now he uh ended
31:45up spending some time in a psychiatric
31:49hospital afterwards for I think it was 2
31:51to 3 years something like that but um
31:53the prosecutor did not press charges
31:56because they they looked at him and they
31:57were just like there's no you know
31:59judging from your history from your wife
32:01and you know being an upstanding great
32:03person good citizen there's no way we
32:06could explain this happening if not for
32:09the drug and so they they um they didn't
32:12pursue it to kind of send him you know
32:13into prison and jail and all of that.
32:15>> But but one objection I've heard even if
32:18you tell your friends or family if
32:20they're on it and you say you should
32:21really get off this, they'll give you
32:22the same excuse that you'd hear if you
32:24if you raised an objection to the COVID
32:26vaccine. Remember with the COVID vaccine
32:28they said if you take the vaccine you
32:29won't get the virus. Then it turned out
32:30that wasn't true. And so they said well
32:32if you get the vaccine you'll get the
32:33virus but you won't transmit the virus.
32:35And it turned out that wasn't true. And
32:36they said well uh okay you'll get it and
32:38you'll transmit it but it would be much
32:41worse. the symptoms would be much worse
32:43if you didn't take the vaccine, which
32:44was unfalsifiable. Well, I've heard the
32:46same thing with the SSRIs where you say,
32:49"Hey, you know, you've been taking these
32:51drugs forever and you haven't gotten
32:53less crazy and in some ways you've
32:55gotten more crazy, it seems to me. So,
32:57you should probably get off the drugs,
32:58right?" And a lot of the time they'll
33:01tell you, "Oh, well, no, you don't you
33:03don't know how bad it was before. If you
33:05think this is bad, oh, trust me, it
33:07would be much worse without the drug."
33:09What do you say to those people? Um, I
33:11say to them that on a population level
33:13from the FDA's own clinical trials, um,
33:17taking these medications is associated
33:19with a greater risk of suicidal thoughts
33:21and behaviors. And I want to just let
33:23that sink in for a second because this
33:25should sound absolutely b crazy. H
33:27>> how do they control? You're saying
33:30people who have depression or
33:32>> Yeah.
33:33>> Like is it the same kind of people? Is
33:34it just normal people or people on Cuz
33:36because if it were just normal people
33:38and people on SSRIs, you say, "Well,
33:39those are the guys who are suicidal
33:40anyway." Or are you saying people
33:42>> people on dep with depression?
33:43>> People with depression who don't take
33:45the SSRIs, people with depression who do
33:47take the SSRI, it's the ones who take
33:49the SSRIs who are more likely to kill
33:51themselves.
33:51>> Yes.
33:52>> Crazy.
33:52>> And your reaction is exactly the
33:54reaction that I want everyone listening
33:57uh to have right now. It is in the drug
33:59labels. So if you look at the drug
34:01labels right now for SSRIs, um it says
34:04for populations under age 25, taking
34:08SSRIs is associated at a population
34:11level with a higher chance of suicidal
34:13behavior. And so
34:17I don't think there is any good
34:18justification for every for for really
34:20using these medications in younger
34:22people. Yes, it will reduce their
34:24symptoms um their symptoms on the
34:26depression scale, which by the way is
34:28how they measure it. How many symptoms
34:30are you reporting? They're not measuring
34:31it by life satisfaction, relationships,
34:34rates of divorce, any of the things.
34:36>> So, what are the symptoms?
34:37>> You know, you know, anxiety, low mood,
34:40sleep. And if you just give someone a
34:42drug that kind of numbs them out, those
34:44symptoms are going to go down. But you
34:46could also see how being in a kind of
34:48numbed out state may not be the best
34:50state to be connected in your
34:52relationships, feel motivated at work,
34:54feel the drive to go and change things
34:56in your life. And so, it decreases your
34:58symptoms. And so people kind of feel
35:00better. Um, but then they're also kind
35:02of spellbound because they're in a
35:03drugged state that they may they may
35:06feel better, but their life really isn't
35:08getting that much better. And so when
35:10you think about it that way, you go,
35:11well, okay, so you're taking a drug
35:14that's masking problems. For many
35:16people, their problems aren't getting
35:17better. Um, and you can also have these
35:20paradoxical reactions where people can
35:22become unexpectedly more suicidal. It
35:24makes sense that taking them actually on
35:27a population level, like you said, group
35:29on placebo, group on drug, the group on
35:33the drug is having more suicidal
35:35behavior and um suicidal thoughts. And
35:38when further analyses were done, it was
35:40shown that it was not just in the group
35:42that was under age 25 that it actually
35:44extended to all adults. Um, and so
35:49when someone says to me, "Hey, if if I
35:51don't take this medication,
35:54um, it's going to lead to, you know, if
35:56people stop taking them, it's going to
35:57lead to more suicidal behavior."
35:58>> That's what it comes down to. Because
36:00people don't make the argument, oh, if
36:02they stop taking this medication,
36:03they're going to be more eccentric or
36:04they're going to be more annoying or
36:05they're going to be a little more It's
36:07always if you tell people not to take
36:10these drugs, they're going to kill
36:11themselves and you're going to have
36:12blood on your hands.
36:14>> The opposite is true.
36:15>> Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
36:18>> What about some of the other drugs?
36:20Because we focused on this one class of
36:22anti-depressants. Is that basically just
36:24what people mean by anti-depressant or
36:26>> pretty much the SSRIs that that
36:28constitutes the lion share of that
36:30anti-depressant pot?
36:31>> Yeah.
36:31>> What are the other because what are the
36:33other ones I've heard of? Benzo.
36:34>> Is benzo an SSRI?
36:36>> No. Benzo um a benzo is a very popular
36:39type of sedative.
36:41>> Okay.
36:41>> Um and like Xanax or Clonopen. Yeah.
36:44that that kind of stuff.
36:45>> But so that's different. I'm confessing
36:47my ignorance to the entire audience, but
36:48so that's different.
36:49>> Yeah.
36:50>> Are those are those also bad for you?
36:52>> They're incredibly bad for you. Um and I
36:54I don't like SSRIs, but I think benzo
36:57are worse. Um so I mean the issue with
37:01the benzoazipines,
37:03kind of similar to the SSRI, is they
37:05just they they simply make people worse
37:07over the long run. [laughter]
37:09>> That's a pretty blunt characterization.
37:11>> It is. And and so you get um and here's
37:14what it looks like. If you're a benzo
37:16user, try and uh see if this is
37:18happening to you right now. They become
37:20more agorophobic. They stop they they
37:22they stop wanting to leave the house and
37:24they start to have a very anxious,
37:26ruminative, and obsessive thoughts over
37:29time and they start to have mood
37:30instability. So I mean this is what I
37:32see in my practice all the time. We we
37:34half of my practice is getting people
37:36off benzo. Um, so they they they get
37:39worse over time, more anxious, more
37:41withdrawn, and then they're really hard
37:44to stop. And some people when they come
37:47off these medications too fast, this is
37:48the benzo and the anti-depressants, they
37:51can actually have a neurological brain
37:54injury called protracted withdrawal that
37:57can be completely disabling. Um, and
38:00it's almost like you've had a severe
38:02concussion, like someone has pushed you
38:03out of a window and you've hit your
38:05head. And people can be disabled for
38:07several years after they come off these
38:09medications.
38:10>> If they come off too quickly.
38:12>> If they come off too quickly. And this
38:14is like another thing when I say this,
38:15people goes, they go, "This is crazy. My
38:18doctor would have told me if coming off
38:20this medication could cause a brain
38:22injury that could last for several
38:24years." And to them, I would say,
38:28"Pick up the drug label, look in the
38:30warnings and precaution, and read the
38:32section that says protracted withdrawal.
38:34These are recognized risks in the drug
38:36labels which doctors are not telling
38:38patients about. And so I mean I've had
38:41people take their lives because they've
38:42been so disabled they're not able to
38:44support their families. Um and yeah
38:47essentially it's like you've had a brain
38:49injury and it can take them years to
38:50recover from and and this happens with
38:52the SSRIs as well.
38:53>> Are these the kind of drugs that people
38:54take on airplanes?
38:56>> Yeah.
38:56>> Yeah. That's that's the only time I
38:58really encounter them is I'll be flying
39:00with someone and say, "Oh, I popped
39:01what's the popular one?" Uh,
39:03>> Xanax.
39:04>> Xanax. I'm popping a Xanax for the
39:06airplane. I just get a whiskey. I don't
39:08know. That's what I get on an airplane.
39:10>> Well, the the sad thing is I actually
39:11see a lot of um permenopausal women who
39:14are entering menopause get put on these
39:16drugs and end up getting a lot worse
39:18because of them. Menopause is one of the
39:21highest risk period um for women when it
39:24comes to psychiatrists like because they
39:26have mood instability, they have
39:27insomnia. And I have so many patients
39:30right now who are just going through
39:32menopause who end up kind of hooked in
39:35this this like psychiatric hell, you
39:37know. Um
39:38>> so the idea being they start to go crazy
39:41during menopause, they can't take it
39:43anymore, they go get some drug, but if
39:45they had just gone through menopause on
39:47the other side of it, they would have
39:48been basically fine again.
39:49>> Gone through menopause, um uh started
39:52hormonal therapy, that could be really
39:54beneficial for some women. Uh but yes,
39:57exactly. you know that that that's a
39:59really high-risisk period uh for them.
40:01>> So then what is the alternative? You
40:04know, we're in a period where people
40:06really like the idea of alternative
40:07medicine, where it used to be all the
40:10left-wingers were the hippies and now
40:12the right-wingers are kind of the
40:13hippies. And now Bobby Kennedy, who used
40:16to be a left-wing cook, is now the
40:18Republican Health and Human Services
40:20Secretary, and it's all and like my very
40:23traditional wife is reading all about, I
40:26don't know, granola and seed oils and
40:27everything. So,
40:28>> that's a good wife.
40:29>> Yes. Yeah. We're kind of totally up
40:31upside down at this point. So, what do
40:34you tell people to do? I mean, the
40:36answer is just deal with it. Stiff upper
40:39lip, talk it out, fix your
40:41relationships. I don't mean to I I don't
40:43mean that derisively.
40:45>> That's good advice sometimes. Yeah.
40:46Yeah. Yeah. So,
40:48>> um Well, it depends. I mean, when we're
40:50looking at anxiety and depression,
40:52>> we have to respect it as a very
40:53complicated problem. I mean, like what
40:55are the things that make people anxious
40:57and depressed? I mean, there's a whole
40:59range of things from the fairly benign
41:01to, you know, quite bad childhood trauma
41:04where you develop um maladaptive
41:06personality traits and it's very hard to
41:08relate to people and you have low
41:09self-esteem. Like that kind of issue
41:11requires that might require a lot more
41:13work. That might require actually
41:15working with a professional to gain
41:16insight into how um you know, terrible
41:19things that happened to you in the past
41:20are playing out in your current life and
41:23relationships. But then we can also have
41:26people that just have really terrible
41:29physical health. I mean, they're sitting
41:31behind their computer all day, you know,
41:33just typing away. They're not getting
41:35any sunlight. They're not moving their
41:36body. They're they're eating um uh just
41:40lots of refined carbohydrates. They have
41:42insulin resistance. Their brain is
41:44starved of energy because they're
41:46completely metabolically destroyed. For
41:49that person, it's like, let's get you
41:51healthy. let's get your um get
41:53nutritious food back into you. Let's
41:55decrease the amount of carbohydrates.
41:57And so you're actually your physical
41:58health is kind of improving. That might
42:00be a solution for one person.
42:02>> Um you could have someone who's in an
42:04abusive relationship and then it's like,
42:06well, how do you navigate that? Oh gosh,
42:07you have kids as well. Well, that's a
42:09big problem. How do we navigate this
42:11abusive relationship where there's
42:12children going on? Like some of these
42:14things are really like I don't want to
42:16diminish anxiety and depression. I mean,
42:18some of the things like like it's like
42:20it's like a gut punch. It's really
42:22complicated, messy problems.
42:24>> Yeah.
42:24>> You could be in a job that you hate, but
42:26then you have a family to support as
42:28well, and it's like how do you find
42:30peace with that
42:31>> and so,
42:32>> no, I I you know, I have friends I'm
42:34being a little tough on the ladies and
42:35calling them crazy and stuff, but I I I
42:38do have friends where I think, well, you
42:39know, if I had that lady's husband, I'd
42:41probably be a little anxious and
42:42depressed, too.
42:43>> Yeah. be a little down in the dumps, you
42:45know, or if I had to do such and such
42:47job, that might get to me a little bit
42:48too. So, look, it's
42:52>> this is why I'm unsatisfied with the
42:53advice of just, you know, buckup kid.
42:55Though I sometimes dispense that very
42:57advice is at the level of the US
42:59population, the fact that you have 20%
43:03of people or whatever it is
43:05>> feeling the need to go on these very
43:06heavy psych drugs tells you that
43:08something has gone wrong. Maybe at the
43:11personal level, maybe they need to pull
43:12themselves up by their bootstraps. Maybe
43:14at the systemic level, maybe political
43:16level.
43:16>> I think we should talk about that. Um,
43:18and the thing that has kind of dawned on
43:20me the longer that I've been doing this
43:22for is that a lot of these problems
43:25actually start young. I mean, like
43:27relationships. I mean, this is one of
43:29the core pillars of of your well-being.
43:32If you marry the wrong person, like if
43:34you don't have the right kind of
43:36guidance to understand, hey, how do I
43:37pick a partner that shares my same views
43:40about having kids or values or religion
43:43or anything like that, that can be
43:45really hard. I've seen that turn up in a
43:47lot of relationships. You know, if if
43:49you don't have parents that kind of
43:51encourage you to find the thing that
43:52energizes you um and that you're going
43:55to naturally be interested in, and they
43:57say, "No, you need to become a lawyer.
43:59You need to become an engineer." and
44:00okay, you're not interested. Take the
44:03outer role so you can sit down and focus
44:04because success is just doing these jobs
44:07and you end up doing a job that you need
44:09to be essentially drugged to do. This is
44:11really common. Like I like I don't want
44:13to great
44:14>> there's so many people who get kind of
44:16driven into these careers. They white
44:18collar job, you know, big big firm that
44:21is success, you know,
44:22>> because wow, it I considered for a while
44:25in my 20s, I considered going to law
44:27school. I said, should I should I sit
44:28for the LSAT? Should I go to law school?
44:30I thought, I really don't want to be a
44:32lawyer. On paper, I could be. You know,
44:34I uh write, I read, I make arguments,
44:38but I just don't want to be a lawyer. It
44:39would be so depressing. And today,
44:43whatever it is that I do, I don't I
44:44don't even really have a real job. I
44:46work 20 hours a day or something, but I
44:48don't feel like I have a real job, and
44:50it it really jazzes me up. Whereas, I
44:51think if I worked half the amount of
44:53time that I do,
44:53>> Yeah. Even in a prestigious career like
44:56a lawyer or a doctor, I would probably
44:58be severely depressed would be my guess.
45:01>> Yeah. Yeah. And um and so
45:05I think we we we need to help we need to
45:08help kids when they're when they are
45:10young
45:12actually ch you know go figure out some
45:14really important things like um uh I'm
45:18most people aren't thinking about that
45:21at that stage in their life and so you
45:24know I think I mean if we talk about I
45:26think um churchgoing has has gone down
45:29and if we look at um the decrease
45:32increase in church going. I mean that is
45:36something where people
45:38there is an emphasis on marriage there
45:40is an emphasis on values core values
45:42which you want to share with your
45:43partner you know before you get married
45:46you know if you're at a Catholic church
45:47you talk to a priest and things like
45:48that some of these institutions actually
45:50used to kind of help with going through
45:53these motions um so you don't make some
45:55of these really big mistakes early on in
45:58your life
45:59>> okay then I have a question to go
46:00further so you say well sharing values
46:02with your spouse house is is going to be
46:04more conducive to flourishing than if
46:06you oppose your spouse. Correct. And I
46:08get that point.
46:10>> But let's say you do share value. Let's
46:12say two you got two couples.
46:13>> Yeah.
46:13>> And they both share values but they have
46:16different values and one h goes to
46:18church and one
46:20>> votes the right way and one, you know,
46:23has kids and all the rest and the other
46:26doesn't does all the opposite stuff.
46:29They both share values with their
46:30spouses but they have very different
46:32values.
46:33Can we say that one set of values is
46:38more conducive to happiness than the
46:39other?
46:42>> I think statistically I mean you can
46:43look at um some like having kids is
46:47associated with greater happiness. I
46:49mean that has been borne out with
46:50clinical trial research. Being married
46:52is associated with greater happiness. Um
46:57churchgoing is associated with greater
46:59happiness as well. Um and so
47:03>> so yes
47:04>> we we don't really have to guess
47:06is there
47:07>> my theory on this from the systemic
47:10level is I think liberalism makes you
47:12unhappy I think the ideology of
47:15liberalism I'm not just knocking the the
47:17leftists even people who call themselves
47:19on the right who are liberal meaning
47:22they they think that the highest good is
47:24to maximize individual autonomy say I
47:26think that makes you unhappy I think it
47:30alienates ates you from your family and
47:32your community and your nation and
47:33everything else. I think it gives you
47:35unrealistic expectations of yourself
47:38because you think that you can transform
47:39your natural limits. You can you can or
47:42transcend your natural limits. You can
47:43transcend your body. I guess you know
47:45you can be a man and you can think that
47:46you're a woman. I think it inclines
47:48toward a lot of sexually deviant
47:50ideologies, but just more broadly
47:52aberant ideologies that tells you that,
47:55you know, you can flunk every class in
47:56school but still be an astronaut someday
47:58or tells you you can be 5' three but
48:00play for the New York Knicks. And and
48:02and it says that if you don't have that
48:05belief that that will somehow depress
48:07you, that that will, you know, that will
48:09be bad for your self-esteem. I think
48:11liberalism drives you crazy. Um, and
48:14it's not just a thought that you need to
48:15have because that's actually been backed
48:17up with statistics that when they look
48:18at liberal women compared to
48:20conservative women, they are more
48:22depressed than that. Um, and I'll go a
48:25point further because this is something
48:26that I see especially with like you know
48:28people call it
48:29>> um, you know like the oppression
48:30Olympics like there there is something
48:33about liberal ideology right now where
48:36um, you are being oppressed you know the
48:38system is against you.
48:40You don't have an internal you don't
48:42have a locus of control like you don't
48:44feel like you are in control of your
48:46life. You know the way my life turns out
48:48is up to me and my responsibility and I
48:50can control it. I feel like that
48:52ideology is very much like men are
48:54holding me down. You know the you know
48:56the government, the people, all of these
48:58types of things. It's it's not a very
49:00empowering um ideology. It's not
49:03something that builds confidence in
49:05yourself and your ability to kind of
49:06navigate the world over time. And so
49:09that's something I also worry about.
49:11>> Do you have faith in the psychiatric
49:12profession?
49:14>> No. No, [laughter] absolutely not. You
49:16know, I I feel like they've absolutely
49:18betrayed the American public in a major
49:21way. Um, and I and you know, I would
49:25want nothing more than the president of
49:27the American Psychiatric Association to
49:29be pulled before a panel of senators and
49:32to be asked some hard questions like,
49:35why are one in three women over 60 on
49:37psychiatric medications? You know, why
49:39are, you know, 18% of our female
49:41population taking these drugs right now?
49:44Why are 17% of adolescent boys, uh, you
49:47know, 14 to 17 diagnosed with ADHD right
49:50now? Why have SSRI, you know, why have
49:53anti-depressant prescriptions gone up
49:54500% while suicide uh teen suicidal
49:58thinking um have both gone up 50% in the
50:01last 30 years? Why is psychiatric
50:03disability uh going up?
50:07What are you doing? You know, I mean,
50:10and so I think there's been a massive
50:12betrayal not just with the psychiatrist.
50:14I also think the um National Institute
50:17of Mental Health um in its prior form,
50:20it's getting reformed now by Bobby and
50:21his team, they have just been obsessed
50:24with biological cures for anxiety and
50:26depression. I think the you know you
50:28would think that with uh you know you
50:31know 15% of the population men and women
50:34on these drugs that someone at the NIMH
50:36would have said hey let's do a 2-year
50:38study where we look at people who get
50:40standard of care just kind of popped on
50:41the anti-depressants and we compare it
50:43to people who get some relationship
50:45coaching you know nutrition help um you
50:47know some uh coaching on life and
50:50purpose. Let's see how those two cohorts
50:52go. So we can really we can really see,
50:54you know, is it safe for, you know, 15
50:57to 20% of our population to be on these
50:58drugs because that's a lot of us and we
51:00should really know that. Well, they have
51:02never done any studies like that.
51:04They're just looking for biological
51:06targets for new drugs.
51:08>> I think that is a massive betrayal um of
51:11the American public. So then can you go
51:14even further to say yes, the psychiatric
51:18profession has this whole conversation
51:20of mental health and the the obsession
51:22with mental health without ever dealing
51:24with the actual underlying issues of
51:26mental health
51:26>> that that that's a betrayal of what the
51:28psychiatric profession is supposed to
51:30be. But you would not go so far as to
51:33say that the practice of psychiatry or
51:36clinical psychology is in itself a
51:39fool's errand as if to say I I know some
51:42there are prominent people who say nah
51:44the whole thing is just kind of fake you
51:46know and uh it's uh trying to make
51:51scientific that which is a little bit
51:53more of an art you know the art of human
51:55relationship.
51:56>> Yeah. you you still would defend
51:57psychology as a discipline or No,
52:01>> I um I I actually have my own misgivings
52:04about um psychology. Um and
52:10a lot of this comes from the fact that
52:11many people stay with therapists
52:13indefinitely and that makes me
52:15suspicious. It makes me feel like people
52:17are really paying for friends. Um and
52:21and and so I I think a lot of that goes
52:23on. I also think there is um we're so
52:26censored these days as well and I
52:29actually think that turns up in therapy.
52:31I think some therapists are afraid to
52:34actually um take a stand on some things
52:37and say
52:39I think you need to work on your
52:41relationships. I think you need to um
52:43you know find I think I think you need
52:46to find a job that is more aligned with
52:49you. I think you need to think about
52:50living a life in service of others. I
52:53think we're so agnostic in uh in
52:56therapy, we're just like, "Well, well,
52:57what do you think about it? What
52:58[laughter] do you think about it?"
53:01>> Last example really got me to because it
53:03seems rather modest to just say, "Hey,
53:05maybe you should think about anyone else
53:08ever, but even that might be too far. I
53:10don't want to I don't want to impose my
53:12moral and values system on you."
53:14>> Exactly. they they they they really I
53:16mean they pussyfoot around the whole
53:18thing and they do not I and so I I I
53:21don't think it has backbone. Um this
53:24will make me sound really unscientific,
53:26but I'm going to say it anyway.
53:28>> Great.
53:28>> I actually really believe in coaching. I
53:30believe I I believe in people like Tony
53:32Robbins. I believe in these these guys
53:35that can get you up and motivate you and
53:37just say no, you know, go out, work
53:39hard, live a life in service of others.
53:42um you know get outside of yourself, you
53:44know, don't be so me me and they give
53:46you more direction. Now that hasn't been
53:48studied in like randomized control
53:50trials and so I know there's probably
53:52medical professionals listening here and
53:53just being like that's unscientific.
53:54Well, I don't really think the other
53:56side works. I would like to see a blend
53:59of um more empowering coaching coaching
54:02styles um with with therapy. I mean,
54:06think like some people think of therapy
54:08as this panacea. It's like, oh, I'm
54:10depressed. I'm going to go and see this
54:11like 24year-old like social worker who's
54:15going to be able to tell me something
54:16about my life and they're like, "Oh, she
54:18she's got a therapy degree.
54:20>> She's got a therapy degree and there
54:21therefore she is expert and I'm doing
54:24something."
54:25>> Yeah. She's expert.
54:27That's insane. Like if you actually have
54:29a complicated problem in your life, you
54:31go to a professional. Why? If if and so
54:34I think people should say, "Okay, I have
54:36interpersonal problems in my
54:37relationship. I'm going to find the
54:38person to help me with that. I I don't
54:40like my job. I'm going to see a career
54:42coach. I'm not going to talk to the
54:4420-year-old um clinical social worker
54:46who really doesn't know anything about
54:48life. You know, she has a she does
54:50cognitive behavioral therapy or
54:51something like that. Um uh so yes, I I
54:55think there are a lot of I think there's
54:57actually a lot of problems um in in
54:59therapy as well.
55:00>> I've long thought that uh therapy is
55:03just confession for atheists.
55:05>> Yep.
55:06>> And and I I go to confession. And I
55:08should probably go more frequently than
55:09I do, but I I regularly go to
55:11confession. And for those who are
55:13unfamiliar with sacramental theology, it
55:15means I go into a box and I kneel down.
55:18I first examine my conscience and I
55:20think about all the bad things I did
55:21over the week or two weeks or three
55:22weeks or however long.
55:24>> And then I list them in number and kind
55:26to a man who has been consecrated to the
55:29priesthood. And I'm confessing my sins
55:30through him to God. and he is given
55:33authority by God in my view and in the
55:35view of the Bible to forgive or retain
55:37my sins and that's what I do and then I
55:38leave the box and I feel better
55:40>> and I think that something spiritually
55:42efficacious has actually taken place but
55:44even when I try to recommend the
55:46sacrament to uh more skeptical friends
55:49of mine I say even if you do not believe
55:51in its spiritual efficacy
55:53>> which is real but you don't you don't
55:55have to believe it at the moment
55:57>> I promise you the psychological effects
55:59of that are going to be very strong and
56:03I really don't have any experience in
56:05psychology. I've never I've never gone
56:07to a psychologist, but I've known a
56:08number of them. I strongly suspect the
56:12the three words ago absolvo from a man
56:15that I believe is consecrated to his
56:17position by God are going to be more
56:19powerful
56:21>> than the 24year-old psych major with
56:24some degree who says, "Gee, wow, that's
56:26really interesting. Tell me more. Time's
56:28up. Give me another 200 bucks next
56:30week."
56:30>> Yeah. Yeah.
56:32And
56:33of course it is. I mean I I think about
56:36how we live our lives now. I mean if you
56:39can take 20 minutes, 30 minutes to
56:42actually sit down and take a moral
56:45inventory of of things that you have
56:48done and really reflect on them. Um how
56:51could that not be helpful? Because I
56:54mean the way I see most people living
56:55their life is oh uncomfortable feeling.
56:57let me whip out my phone and start
56:59scrolling scrolling through. We we numb
57:01ourselves with drugs to pain. We numb
57:03ourselves with distraction. When you're
57:05going into confession, it's it's it's
57:07it's meditative. You you're really
57:09reflecting on core principles, values,
57:12you know, things that you want to
57:14practice which you know long term will
57:16improve your life and the lives of
57:18others. How could that not be a a
57:21powerful tool? And in some ways it's
57:23it's it's such a perversion of uh
57:27psychology is such a perversion of
57:29confession that in some ways it's an
57:31inversion because again I'm getting most
57:33of this secondhand but
57:35>> when I confess my sins I feel a great
57:38degree of guilt for my sins as I should.
57:41In fact, I say mayakulpa mayakulpa mayam
57:44maximulpa my my guilt
57:46>> uh and then I confess them and then I
57:49believe God has forgiven me and I trust
57:50in God's grace.
57:51>> So I I have a reason to let go of the
57:53guilt.
57:53>> Mhm.
57:54>> If I go to confession or if if I go to a
57:56psychologist, what's the the first thing
57:59you're going to say? Don't feel Oh, you
58:00shouldn't feel guilt. You shouldn't feel
58:01shame.
58:02>> Go blame your mother or don't know.
58:04Don't you have to let go of shame. It's
58:06very bad for you. You need to love
58:08yourself. You need self-care.
58:10>> Exactly. And that's that whole locus of
58:12control which you kind of see um in the
58:14more conservative uh um groups, more
58:18religious groups as well.
58:19Responsibility, self I'm in control. Um
58:23>> yeah, you need to take self ownership.
58:24>> Yeah. Yeah. And and this is why I get
58:27really worried about chat GBT as well.
58:29Um
58:30>> people use chat GPT for therapy and I've
58:32experimented with it um as well asking
58:34it questions and it is just like the
58:37therapist that you had you know that you
58:40had acted out a moment ago. It's other
58:42people you know it's not you that's so
58:44hard you know I'm so sorry for you that
58:46must be so difficult.
58:48>> I hear you. Wow. I hear you.
58:50>> There's not some there's not like a hard
58:52ass in there. Take ownership of your
58:53life. You know you know you know get in
58:55control. Get in the driver's seat. You
58:57know you can change things. It's it's
58:59not really an empowering message a lot
59:01of people
59:01>> because I want to I want to hear to hear
59:03more on the chat GBT point because
59:05that's very scary and I'm sure many more
59:07people are going to use it in coming
59:08years for therapy. But on the the point
59:11of even the shame and the guilt, I can
59:14even if you think I'm crazy, even if you
59:16think God doesn't exist and the priests
59:18are deluding themselves and whatever,
59:20you can at least understand why I feel
59:23guilt going into the confessional and
59:24then I don't feel guilt after the
59:26confessional because I believe that the
59:27creator and sustainer of the universe,
59:30my very maker who knew every hair on my
59:32head before I was born,
59:34>> has forgiven me. Mhm.
59:36>> But if you don't believe that, if you if
59:39you instead go to some guy with a degree
59:41from like Welssley College, y
59:43>> uh who you are speaking to as the great
59:47oracle
59:48>> and he you feel shame because you've
59:50committed bad actions
59:53>> and then he says, "No, you shouldn't
59:55feel shame."
59:57Why would you believe him? [laughter]
59:59>> Yeah.
59:59>> Is that going to work? I just don't
1:00:00think that's going to work.
1:00:02>> Yeah.
1:00:04I mean, I wouldn't find it compelling.
1:00:06Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.
1:00:07>> Doesn't do it for me. So, okay. So, then
1:00:08they turn to chat GBT. This is
1:00:11>> quite concerning because
1:00:13>> I've used chat GPT for some research and
1:00:16a lot of time it's not reliable.
1:00:18Sometimes it's reliable. But when I say
1:00:20it's not reliable, I mean it'll just
1:00:21completely make stuff up and try to hide
1:00:23it. But, but sometimes that you get
1:00:25interesting stuff, access to archives.
1:00:27If I'm doing historical research, okay,
1:00:29so it it can be a useful tool. You have
1:00:31to be very careful with it.
1:00:34People treat this thing
1:00:36like it is God, like it is omnipotent,
1:00:39like it can give you the secrets of the
1:00:41universe, and like it can unfold your
1:00:44own personal mysteries to yourself.
1:00:48>> It's highly disturbing. Um, and
1:00:53the the part of it that I worry about
1:00:55the most is when people start making
1:00:57chat GBT like a friend and they will
1:01:00have a boyfriend or a girlfriend that is
1:01:03chat GBT.
1:01:04>> Is this real? I've I've read headlines
1:01:06about this. This has really happened.
1:01:07>> This is real. And then people have a
1:01:09panic attack because I think after you
1:01:11put in 50,000 prompts, it will delete
1:01:13the memory. So you lose uh cuz I and you
1:01:17know when you use chat GPT it remembers
1:01:19things about you and so you get more
1:01:20accurate replies that are kind of
1:01:21matched to you. But when you go over a
1:01:23certain number of prompts which you do
1:01:25if you're treating this thing like a
1:01:27romantic partner it dies and then people
1:01:30really freak out when that happens.
1:01:33That's horrifying.
1:01:34>> Yeah.
1:01:34>> So the fear is not even of treating chat
1:01:38GPT
1:01:39>> like a like a god or an oracle or
1:01:40something. It's it's treating it like
1:01:42your therapist or your friend. It is um
1:01:45and you know one of the scariest things
1:01:48about this technology is people can
1:01:50retreat into it. I mean it doesn't it
1:01:53doesn't have boundaries. It's not going
1:01:55to you know it's not going to be like
1:01:57your wife where it's going to you know
1:01:59come after you if you're insensitive.
1:02:00You're not talking to it or you're not
1:02:02you know attuned to the emotions. It it
1:02:04just sits there and just kind of takes
1:02:06what whatever you feed into it. And I
1:02:08mean that is like the worst thing ever
1:02:10because you you I think people retreat
1:02:13into chat GBT because they're so wounded
1:02:15and fragile with normal human
1:02:17relationships that they want something
1:02:18that feels safe,
1:02:20>> but it's the worst thing to do. You need
1:02:22to be out there interacting with people
1:02:25and resolving conflicts and not kind of
1:02:27shying away from everything. And so it
1:02:30essentially just I mean it it allows
1:02:32people to to retreat into this fantasy
1:02:34world. And I mean the whole thing with X
1:02:36lately and they're like have you seen
1:02:38like the artificial intelligence like
1:02:40anime companions that Elon has made
1:02:43>> I I saw something that was vaguely
1:02:45disturbing that he posted but I didn't
1:02:47look into it.
1:02:48>> They're provocative looking like anime
1:02:49avatars. Um and I mean it's so twisted.
1:02:53I mean it's it's so disturbing. Um, and
1:02:56I mean, so
1:02:57>> and you can treat the the anime, the hot
1:03:01little 22-year-old anime as your as your
1:03:04girlfriend or something.
1:03:05>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:03:07>> Oh, man. But well, actually, that tracks
1:03:08because I I suspect one of the big
1:03:11drivers of porn and why, you know, I
1:03:13mean, you read these reports of well,
1:03:15especially it first came out of Japan,
1:03:16but I think you're seeing this here now,
1:03:18too, is that guys will prefer porn to a
1:03:20girlfriend. And I remember I was having
1:03:22this conversation with with my colleague
1:03:24Andrew Playin and he said, "Can you
1:03:26that's crazy. Why would anyone prefer uh
1:03:28porn to a girlfriend?" I said, 'I
1:03:30totally understand why
1:03:32>> cuz your girlfriend has needs.
1:03:34>> She has needs. She yells at you
1:03:36sometimes. She is like tired sometimes.
1:03:39And porn is just whatever you want. And
1:03:41with Chet GBT, it's just that to the nth
1:03:43degree.
1:03:44>> Correct. Yep. Yeah. Bra, it's a brave
1:03:46new world. I you know this is like off
1:03:49topic from what we're talking about but
1:03:51I mean in 10 years we're going to have
1:03:52humanoid robots. I really believe that
1:03:55powered with artificial intelligence and
1:03:58I really worry about what the world is
1:04:00going to look like at that point.
1:04:02>> I have long said once they perfect
1:04:06[snorts]
1:04:06>> robots and AI because all new
1:04:10technologies are immediately infiltrated
1:04:12by pornography. Once they perfect robots
1:04:14and AI pornography, the human race has
1:04:16about 23 years left and then extinction
1:04:19will set in
1:04:20>> because people people will flock to. I
1:04:22actually do want to talk about the the
1:04:23porn issue though cuz
1:04:25>> people write in it's not just certainly
1:04:27not just in my show. It's all over the
1:04:28place. Young men
1:04:29>> for years and years now have said one of
1:04:31the biggest struggles in my life is
1:04:33>> I'm struggling with porn. Yeah. and and
1:04:36some are now speaking of pornography as
1:04:38a kind of a drug, you know, causing or
1:04:41fixing a chemical imbalance, say to
1:04:43bring us all the way back to the top of
1:04:44our uh of our conversation.
1:04:47>> What do you make of that?
1:04:48>> I think it's a really apt analogy and u
1:04:51I would put pornography, you know, in
1:04:53with things like overeating, sometimes
1:04:55even gambling as well and taking
1:04:57psychiatric drugs. It is a way to numb
1:05:00feelings. It is a way to distract. It is
1:05:03a way to like because think about it.
1:05:05Okay, why am I watching porn? Well,
1:05:08[snorts] I can't get a girlfriend,
1:05:09right? That could be one thing. I'm
1:05:11fighting with my wife. That could be
1:05:13another thing. Um the spark has has
1:05:16disappeared in my marriage.
1:05:18>> These are complicated things to fix.
1:05:21>> So complicated that, oh, isn't it easier
1:05:23if I can just go get my desires met
1:05:25through pornography? I don't need to I
1:05:27don't need to learn how to uh socialize
1:05:30better and go out and meet a girlfriend.
1:05:31I don't need to go through rejection. I
1:05:33don't need to talk to 10, 20, 30 people
1:05:36until I find someone. I can just do
1:05:38that. I don't need to understand what's
1:05:40happened in our relationship. Why is the
1:05:42spark gone away? It is a way of
1:05:44distracting. It is a way of avoiding
1:05:46real problems in your life. Um, and so I
1:05:49do think
1:05:50>> that that feeling of anxiety that
1:05:51reminds me of a comment, if you'll
1:05:53forgive the crass remark,
1:05:55>> there was a comment that a college buddy
1:05:57of mine made of mine made in college. He
1:06:00he referred to um procrastation.
1:06:04>> Yeah.
1:06:05>> Meaning he the the feeling of anxiety. I
1:06:09have to write a term paper. I have to
1:06:10study for an exam or something. And that
1:06:12that was actually the cause. He he was
1:06:14describing in a in a funny way the the
1:06:16very thing that you're describing.
1:06:17>> I know. And and before you had that and
1:06:19you you know maybe you would get up and
1:06:22go for a walk, you know, like you have
1:06:24some anxiety and you're just like I
1:06:25don't want to do anything. I'm jittery.
1:06:27You'd work out. But now you can just do
1:06:30that and
1:06:30>> smoke a cigar. I don't know. That's what
1:06:32I do. I don't I certainly don't work
1:06:33out. I occasionally go for a walk, but
1:06:36>> I don't know. Yeah. You have a have a
1:06:37cigar, read a book, like a pleasure book
1:06:40or you don't
1:06:41>> Yeah.
1:06:42>> So, what if we're looking at systemic
1:06:44mental health problems, psychological
1:06:46problems,
1:06:48>> lifestyle problems, it seems to me one
1:06:50in five women, one in three women over
1:06:51the age of 60 being on these psych drugs
1:06:53is a big problem that we need to
1:06:54address. But if we're if we're also
1:06:58looking at these social pathologies, the
1:07:00fact that virtually every young man in
1:07:02the country is hooked on porn that is
1:07:06damaging their relationships, screwing
1:07:07up their brains, that seems like a major
1:07:09issue to fix too before we start plying
1:07:11them with psych drugs.
1:07:13>> Yeah. Well, the the psych the issue with
1:07:15the psych drugs as well is they cause
1:07:17massive amounts of sexual dysfunction as
1:07:19well. So, if we're going to add, you
1:07:21know, I think the porn issue is is
1:07:23definitely a distraction and it's
1:07:24holding men back from going out there
1:07:27and just getting a girlfriend, getting
1:07:29married and figuring that out. But these
1:07:31these psychiatric medications, even the
1:07:33SSRIs, they called they cause profound
1:07:37sexual dysfunction, which is something
1:07:39that um many people don't realize as
1:07:41well.
1:07:42>> Like you're talking about ED basically
1:07:45does doesn't work or
1:07:46>> So there's two things there. So the
1:07:48first thing is that when people get on
1:07:50SSRIs about 70% of them will experience
1:07:53um um so it would be uh erectile
1:07:55dysfunction um it would be lower libido
1:07:59muted orgasms as well um you know just a
1:08:03just a loss of interest and they are
1:08:04told when they get on these medications
1:08:06hey this is just the trade-off for not
1:08:08being depressed it will go away when you
1:08:10come off the medication.
1:08:12What we have been finding recently over
1:08:15well not that recently over the last 20
1:08:17years is some people when they come off
1:08:18these medications the sexual dysfunction
1:08:21does not go away it is permanent and so
1:08:25they develop a condition called post
1:08:28SSRI sexual dysfunction um based on what
1:08:30I've seen in the literature the
1:08:32incidence is about 1 in 216 which
1:08:35>> what
1:08:36>> yeah I mean I mean so two yeah which is
1:08:39a huge amount when you
1:08:40>> one in 200,000 I I would never touch it.
1:08:42I would never even consider. One in 216
1:08:46men
1:08:47>> who use SSRI
1:08:49will have permanent sexual dysfunction.
1:08:53>> That's what I've seen on on one on on
1:08:56one study that has looked into that. And
1:08:58so if you think about 8% of of men in
1:09:02the US are taking these medications,
1:09:05that's a lot of people. Now, so what
1:09:08PSSD does and and this is psychiatrists
1:09:11and doctors have been trying to explain
1:09:12this away for decades by saying it's
1:09:15performance anxiety. Hey, you have
1:09:17depression and anxiety. You're
1:09:18[clears throat] complaining about, you
1:09:19know, your sexual fun uh your sexual
1:09:21functioning didn't return. You're just
1:09:23anxious. You have performance anxiety or
1:09:25something like that.
1:09:26>> They literally,
1:09:28it's it's a horrific uh thing. they will
1:09:31develop something called genital
1:09:32anesthesia where um they lose erogynous
1:09:36sensation uh down there and it feels
1:09:39like you know what what used to be
1:09:41sexually arousing actually just feels
1:09:42like you're touching the back of your
1:09:44hand or your arm and so the sensation
1:09:47changes on top of that you know they
1:09:49have the erectile dysfunction loss of
1:09:51libido all of that they also develop um
1:09:55cognitive uh like really bad cognitive
1:09:57dysfunction brain fog and they feel
1:10:00labbotomized. They they start to feel
1:10:02very dissociated like severely numbed
1:10:05out on the medication to the point where
1:10:07they say, you know, if I hug my kids or
1:10:09I hug my spouse, like I don't get like a
1:10:11warm feeling, you know, when I listen to
1:10:13that song from my childhood that I used
1:10:15to, you know, really enjoy. I don't get
1:10:16those prickles on the back of my neck of
1:10:18nostalgia anymore. They feel totally
1:10:21disconnected. Um, and people hear me
1:10:25talking about this and they say they
1:10:27look like you right now. They look
1:10:28wideeyed in in disbelief, Michael. And
1:10:31then I tell them, "This is already in
1:10:34the drug labels in the European Union.
1:10:36It's in the drug labels in Canada. It's
1:10:38in the drug labels in Hong Kong. It's in
1:10:40the drug labels in Australia.
1:10:42And and this is where I'm so upset with
1:10:44the United States. Six years ago, we um
1:10:48um the PSSD network um coordinated with
1:10:53other scientific professionals to submit
1:10:55a citizens petition to the FDA to get
1:10:57this put on the drug labels and they've
1:11:01essentially just like let it sit on the
1:11:03back burner. They they have not
1:11:05addressed it. the um this group also
1:11:07sued the FDA saying hey we need an
1:11:09action on this because the regulations
1:11:12say that they have to reply I think it's
1:11:14within 180 days to any citizens petition
1:11:16so so they were asking they were saying
1:11:18here is the evidence this is the same
1:11:20dossier we've given to the European
1:11:22Union to Australia to Canada they have
1:11:24acted on this they have put it in the
1:11:26labels they are warning doctors about
1:11:28this problem already FDA has just sat on
1:11:31this for six years they sued them last
1:11:33year I think sorry I think it was
1:11:34earlier on this year to say Hey, we
1:11:36really want a decision about this. This
1:11:37is important. People need to know. And
1:11:39they dismissed it on a technicality. The
1:11:42FDA is sitting on this because they are
1:11:44trying to cover up one of the biggest
1:11:46scandals in modern medical history right
1:11:49now. Um, and I think it I think it is
1:11:53simply a disgrace what's happening.
1:11:56>> Are you hopeful that this will now get
1:11:58through thanks to a change in regime and
1:12:00and Secretary Kennedy? I'm very hopeful
1:12:02that this will come through because the
1:12:05thing that's happened in psychiatry
1:12:06recently which is very unique. We're at
1:12:09a really interesting moment in time.
1:12:12Both conservative and liberal media are
1:12:15starting to actually turn on the
1:12:16establishment. For a long time it's just
1:12:18been the conservative outlets but we've
1:12:20had articles in New York Times um uh
1:12:23Washington Post, NPR. And once you start
1:12:26getting like liberal media as well as
1:12:28conservative talking about these issues,
1:12:31then that's where I think it's almost
1:12:33like the shame or the embarrassment or
1:12:35the fact that this is going to be a PR
1:12:37disaster for them is building up. So I
1:12:39actually think they are going to put it
1:12:40in there.
1:12:42>> But I think it's really sad because the
1:12:43American public they deserved better
1:12:45than this. these the FDA will review an
1:12:48entire dossier of scientific
1:12:50information, multiple clinical trials
1:12:52and animal studies in nine months to get
1:12:55a drug from a pharmaceutical company
1:12:57onto the market. But they've had this
1:12:59this uh report for 6 years and haven't
1:13:02done anything.
1:13:04It's like their emphasis is on um
1:13:07helping the drug companies and not on
1:13:09actually helping uh the American
1:13:11population. Well, uh, Secretary Kennedy
1:13:13has for years warned about, uh, agency
1:13:16capture by the corporate interests that
1:13:18they're supposed to regulate.
1:13:19>> Correct.
1:13:20>> There's there's nothing new. Obviously,
1:13:21the secretary understands the problem.
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1:14:59Let's get back to the table. One of the
1:15:01[snorts] neurological medical issues
1:15:03that's been dominating the news recently
1:15:05is that the Trump administration has
1:15:07said it's found a link between Tylenol
1:15:10and autism. That if pregnant women take
1:15:12Tylenol, it could lead to neurological
1:15:14problems in the kids, including autism.
1:15:16And this has led to liberal women
1:15:18guzzling bottles of Tylenol on camera.
1:15:20And I think some have suffered serious
1:15:22adverse effects actually. Uh but then it
1:15:26turns out Trump didn't just invent this.
1:15:27Tylenol was tweeting tweeting about it
1:15:29themselves. and Tylenol said, "We don't
1:15:31encourage pregnant women to take any of
1:15:33our products." Major medical
1:15:34institutions, Harvard, all the rest, the
1:15:37the uh trade guild for the obstatricians
1:15:39and gynecologists who now say Tylenol is
1:15:42totally safe. They previously said that
1:15:43Tylenol had this connection to to
1:15:46autism.
1:15:48Your take?
1:15:49>> I think it's like um and I mean this is
1:15:53reminds me of COVID and just the
1:15:55delusion that people have. I mean, it's
1:15:58like being on the left, it's I think
1:16:00they want to associate themselves with
1:16:02being the party of science, right?
1:16:04That's and that's it. And so, if all of
1:16:07a sudden, you know, Trump is criticizing
1:16:11um taking Tylenol, I hate Trump. He's
1:16:14obviously wrong. You know, you know,
1:16:16this this is safe and I'm going to do
1:16:18this to spite him. I'm going to poison
1:16:20my body um and potentially my baby with
1:16:24with this medication. you're of course
1:16:26that's got to be it because
1:16:29if Trump says it it's unscientific and
1:16:31it's wrong and then Trump says no no no
1:16:33I got it from Harvard and from the
1:16:36obstitricians and gynecologists and from
1:16:38Tylenol I got it from them and it it's
1:16:41it's that I guess the contempt for Trump
1:16:43the presumption that he is
1:16:44anti-scientific
1:16:46>> trumps even the scientific credentials
1:16:48of the institutions and the drug
1:16:49manufacturer themselves.
1:16:50>> Yeah. You know, and while we're on this
1:16:52topic, something that we didn't touch
1:16:54on, which I think is really important,
1:16:56is what the SSRIs actually do to the
1:17:00kids who are exposed to them when the
1:17:02mothers are pregnant. So, anywhere
1:17:04between 3 and 10% of pregnant women are
1:17:07on SSRIs.
1:17:08>> Good grief.
1:17:09>> Yeah. And so, these drugs, they freely
1:17:11cross the placenta. And for a long time
1:17:14there has been concern about this idea
1:17:17that okay what is the impact of exposing
1:17:21a child's brain when it's going from the
1:17:23size of a spec to a fully formed brain
1:17:25in 9 months like if they are taking an
1:17:28SSRI that's going to kind of impact um
1:17:31the serotonin system will that lead to
1:17:34changes uh over time that we should be
1:17:36concerned about and so there's some
1:17:39pretty frightening research here and I
1:17:40want to start quickly with the animal
1:17:42research.
1:17:43because you can't do a randomized
1:17:45control trial in um in humans at this
1:17:48stage where you just randomly assign
1:17:49some pregnant women to this and others.
1:17:52You can do it in mice. And so they do it
1:17:54they do it in mice and what they find is
1:17:57that the mice who are exposed in uterro
1:17:59and during the sensitive periods of
1:18:01brain development, they grow up to
1:18:03display a higher rate of autistic-like
1:18:05behaviors and decreased sexual u
1:18:08activity. And so that is really
1:18:11concerning.
1:18:13The other thing that we found,
1:18:14>> so hold on this because everyone's
1:18:15trying to figure out the cause of
1:18:16autism. Is it merely overdiagnosed? Is
1:18:19it Tylenol? Is it vaccines? Is it though
1:18:22I had not heard this before that there
1:18:23might be a link between SSRI use in
1:18:27women
1:18:28>> and the develop in pregnant women and
1:18:29and the development of autism.
1:18:31>> Correct. So there is there is
1:18:33epidemiological evidence. There's the
1:18:35animal studies. Um but there are some
1:18:38other studies which um also quite which
1:18:41I'd like to touch on. I was just at the
1:18:42FDA about a month ago. I was talking
1:18:44with Marty Mari on a full panel um about
1:18:47this and
1:18:48>> we have 12 MRI studies now that show
1:18:51that the children who are exposed to
1:18:53these drugs in uterro compared to to not
1:18:56they actually have functional and
1:18:58structural changes on the brain scans
1:19:00when you get the people exposed the the
1:19:01infants exposed and not exposed. Um
1:19:04they've also gone and looked at this
1:19:06later on when these um exposed kids have
1:19:08become teens later on and they find that
1:19:11there's actually changed signaling in
1:19:13the brain in the areas that control
1:19:15emotions and that has correlated to
1:19:17worse mental health care outcomes.
1:19:21Um and so
1:19:24this is obviously worrying from the
1:19:25autism standpoint, but the other part of
1:19:28this is
1:19:30all of the the transgender stuff that
1:19:32has been going on lately. I mean, you
1:19:34could say that a lot of this is, you
1:19:36know, social contagion. I mean, if
1:19:38you're on the left, you could say, you
1:19:39know, it's just increased acceptance
1:19:41right now, but
1:19:42>> since the early '9s, I mean, that that's
1:19:45when we started putting a lot of moms on
1:19:46these drugs. And and based on these
1:19:48animal studies, like if these rats are
1:19:50growing up with decreased, you know,
1:19:52changes in their sexual functioning.
1:19:54Personally, I have also seen men um who
1:19:57have PSSD who after they have these
1:19:59sexual side effects, normal heterosexual
1:20:02men who used to be attracted to women,
1:20:04they find that they lose that attraction
1:20:06and they start to question their
1:20:07sexuality. I and so I hear these stories
1:20:10and so I also wonder whether there is a
1:20:12link between putting kids while their
1:20:15brains are developing in utero and when
1:20:17they are children and before they have
1:20:18gone through their sexual maturity on
1:20:20these medications which which have
1:20:22profound sexual effects and also impact
1:20:25the brain. What is that what is that
1:20:27doing to people? Is this leading to
1:20:29asexuality? Is this leading to gender
1:20:31confusion? Is this leading to the rise
1:20:33in LGBTQ? I mean, I've heard some stats
1:20:35lately that in Gen Z, it's like 25% of
1:20:39them are associating with being LGBTQ.
1:20:42>> Yeah. Oh, yeah.
1:20:43>> And so,
1:20:44>> that's reported by liberal media, NBC
1:20:46News, that sort of thing.
1:20:47>> And so, I do think that we need to ask
1:20:50that question. I mean what is the impact
1:20:52of whether it's three or 10% I've seen
1:20:54two different figures of pregnant women
1:20:57exposing their children to these drugs
1:20:59during devel
1:21:00>> well and also there is a a notable
1:21:03association between autism and the trans
1:21:05identity. Yeah.
1:21:06>> So even just drawing a link between
1:21:08SSRIs and autism
1:21:11would get you an association with with
1:21:13the trans ideology.
1:21:15>> Yeah.
1:21:16>> That's terrifying.
1:21:18>> Yeah. We've talked a lot about the
1:21:20women. Turning to the men and the boys,
1:21:24uh, they seem to disproportionately like
1:21:26Aderal or be prescribed Aderal. I've
1:21:28never done an Adderall in my life. Some
1:21:30friends have referred to it as Diet
1:21:32Coke, uh, though I've never been
1:21:34tempted. Uh, what is your take on the
1:21:37prescription or overprescription of
1:21:39Adderall for ADHD or just for people who
1:21:41call them smart pills at college or say
1:21:44they need them to focus at work?
1:21:45>> Yeah. Um,
1:21:48I think about a story of a friend of
1:21:50mine. Um, his name's, uh, Cooper Davis.
1:21:53And when he was young, he got put on
1:21:56aderall because he was struggling in
1:21:58school. He ended up taking it throughout
1:22:00college and then he ended up going into
1:22:04um, journalism or something like that.
1:22:06Eventually, the drug side effects caught
1:22:08up with him and he had to come off the
1:22:10medication. And when he was in his 30s,
1:22:12he realized that he had essentially been
1:22:14drugging himself into a job that he
1:22:15hated because off the medications, he's
1:22:17like, I don't want to do this anymore.
1:22:19Um, and so he had to reinvent his life
1:22:21at the age of 30 because he did not want
1:22:23to be on psychiatric medication anymore.
1:22:26And so that's one of the things that I
1:22:28really worry about in in the US. I feel
1:22:31like we, you know, worship at the altar
1:22:33of career success. And for many uh
1:22:36parents and for many students like
1:22:38that's how I have value. That's that's
1:22:40that's the most important thing for me.
1:22:43And they will they will drug themselves
1:22:46uh with these medications in order to to
1:22:49succeed at that level. And so I I I
1:22:52worry that they're going to end up in
1:22:53careers that don't actually naturally
1:22:55energize them and inspire them and
1:22:57they'll end up doing things that they
1:22:59hate.
1:23:00The other thing about this which this is
1:23:02what all parents should know is the main
1:23:06effect of taking these stimulants is
1:23:08really to actually make boring subjects
1:23:10seem more tolerable um and and for kids
1:23:13to fidget less when they look at the
1:23:15long-term academic outcomes. Now that's
1:23:17what most parents care about like actual
1:23:20success.
1:23:22It doesn't do that really.
1:23:23>> It does not conver It does not convert
1:23:25to long-term academic success
1:23:27>> because it seems like they're
1:23:28overprescribed because people want to
1:23:30stop boys from being boys. Yeah.
1:23:31>> And but listen, I I wasn't fidgety. I
1:23:34was good in school. I was always good in
1:23:35school. And so I I and I had friends and
1:23:38classmates who were who needed to sit
1:23:40down and but it was always on the
1:23:42assumption that well if you just get the
1:23:44kid to sit down and pay attention then
1:23:47he'll he'll get the good grades and go
1:23:49to the good college and get the good
1:23:50job. You're saying that doesn't happen.
1:23:51No, it just it kind of sedates them.
1:23:53They they become less of a problem for
1:23:56the the teachers. The teacher can
1:23:58continue being boring. You know, they
1:24:00can be in a school system that really
1:24:02isn't that exciting to them and the kid
1:24:04is just kind of, you know, on stimulants
1:24:06like ultra, you know, chemically focused
1:24:09in just like doing the work and they're
1:24:11like, "Okay, that's great. That's that's
1:24:13great progress." They're not out there
1:24:15asking questions like, "Well, why do I
1:24:17think this is so boring? like what would
1:24:20actually be more interesting to me, like
1:24:21what would what would energize me and
1:24:23bring me to life? They they shut it down
1:24:25with the stimulant. And again, we rob we
1:24:28rob a person of the chance to be like,
1:24:31okay, school's not really for me, but
1:24:32like I like this and I'm really
1:24:34interested in this and this is where my
1:24:35passion is going to be. Um, and they
1:24:38would have done much better if they
1:24:40would just, you know, spend 10 years
1:24:42working on that passion. Eventually, you
1:24:43can turn it into a job and a career and
1:24:45something that you love. Um, but yeah,
1:24:48you you can use aderall to just push
1:24:51people through the dysfunctional school
1:24:52system into jobs that they hate.
1:24:54>> Okay. Now, I have a related question,
1:24:55but it's a little more personal.
1:24:58>> I have a lot of friends who are hooked
1:25:00on those nicotine pouches, like heavy
1:25:03doses all day, rocking, you know, 15
1:25:07mill lip pillies, double double decky.
1:25:09>> Yeah.
1:25:10>> Me, I'm not that into it, but I do have
1:25:12one or two
1:25:14>> pretty regularly. out to low dose, but
1:25:16I'll toss one in once once twice, maybe
1:25:18three times a day.
1:25:19>> Yeah.
1:25:22>> Is that bad? Is that like the aderal? Is
1:25:24that a diet aderal diet diet coke?
1:25:26>> I I don't think occasional use is bad
1:25:29when it comes to stimulants. And I and
1:25:30I'll lump in caffeine as well with this
1:25:32as well.
1:25:32>> I do a lot more caffeine than I do of
1:25:34the nicotine pouches. Um, in general,
1:25:36nicotine and caffeine in randomized
1:25:38control trials, um, they do increase
1:25:40anxiety and they do impair sleep,
1:25:42especially if you go any more than a,
1:25:45you know, a small cup of coffee, like
1:25:47before 10:00 a.m., something like that.
1:25:49>> I have three pretty strong coffees a
1:25:53day,
1:25:54>> ending at like 4.
1:25:55>> How do you sleep?
1:25:56>> Not well.
1:25:56>> Yeah.
1:25:57>> I sleep poorly, actually, which you can
1:25:59tell from my under eye bags.
1:26:00>> Yeah. So, I'll tell a personal story. um
1:26:02after my daughter was born, uh I was
1:26:04working at the FDA and I was um just
1:26:08come out of residency and I it was a
1:26:10very new job. I was writing reports all
1:26:12the time and I was drinking like three
1:26:14cups of coffee a day and I was also uh
1:26:16using a lot of like chewing tobacco and
1:26:19like Zin like
1:26:20>> Yeah. Okay. All right. That's exactly
1:26:22but every day. Not like one occasionally
1:26:24now and then like kind of like you know
1:26:26five to eight pouches in my mouth like
1:26:28heavily stemmied out and working.
1:26:31>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, I ended up developing
1:26:33insomnia and I started taking Xanax from
1:26:35a nurse practitioner as well. And so it
1:26:38kind of like spiraled out of control and
1:26:39then all of a sudden I was taking Xanax
1:26:41every day uh for 6 months and that
1:26:43started to make me worse. And then
1:26:45thankfully I was I I caught it and I was
1:26:47able to come off at the time. Now when I
1:26:50stopped drinking coffee and I stopped uh
1:26:53using so so much chewing tobacco, I
1:26:55started sleeping like a teenager. Um,
1:26:57and so what I would say is, um, for
1:27:02anyone who's having difficulty sleeping,
1:27:03for anyone who feels keyed up and
1:27:05irritable, you know, when they're
1:27:06sitting down with their kids at night
1:27:07and they and reading a book and they're
1:27:09just like, I'm just uncomfortable. I
1:27:10just don't feel relaxed. I don't just
1:27:12feel at ease in my skin. Look at your
1:27:14stimulant use.
1:27:15>> Um, now this is not going to be a
1:27:17blanket yes, yes or no. I know lots of
1:27:20people who can have a cup of coffee a
1:27:22day and and some nicotine pouches and
1:27:24they're fine. But there are people who
1:27:26are sensitive to it. And so if you are
1:27:28having these issues, I would recommend
1:27:30come off the stimulants. Give it about
1:27:32five weeks or so. You will feel like a
1:27:34potato. You know, you just it's really
1:27:36hard to concentrate like if you've been
1:27:38using a lot of them. I know I felt that
1:27:39way and I went through it. Um but you
1:27:42make For me, I came out the other side
1:27:44with um um much better sleep and a very
1:27:48smooth energy curve. I mean, the big
1:27:50thing that I used to beat myself up on
1:27:53was when I would read to my daughter at
1:27:55night, I'd feel restless and I'd be
1:27:56like, I can't wait for this to be over.
1:27:58That doesn't happen anymore. I'm much
1:27:59more grounded and calm because I'm not
1:28:02on this like stimulant like kind of
1:28:04withdrawal roller coaster at the end of
1:28:06the day.
1:28:07>> Um, I'm glad you brought that up because
1:28:09I actually think caffeine and nicotine
1:28:11uh can be really overlooked as drivers
1:28:14of anxiety and depression, especially if
1:28:16you're using excessive amounts and it's
1:28:17impacting sleep.
1:28:20you. This might actually have led me to
1:28:23change my behavior. You I went in here
1:28:25thinking I'm not depressed. I don't
1:28:26really feel anxiety. I'm But I a little
1:28:30bit with the nicotine and definitely
1:28:31with the coffee.
1:28:32>> Yeah.
1:28:33>> All right. And sometimes I get a little
1:28:35restless. I'm reading those books at
1:28:36night, too.
1:28:36>> Yeah. Well, give me give give me a call
1:28:38and you know, if you come off it, I I
1:28:40and and you and it improves, I would
1:28:42love to
1:28:42>> I can be a testimonial.
1:28:43>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:28:45My question then is
1:28:48if all these drugs
1:28:50are so bad, if if they not only don't
1:28:54deliver the promises they say they will,
1:28:56but they actually make patients worse on
1:28:59such a wide scale,
1:29:02why are they so frequently prescribed?
1:29:06>> Is it just money? Is it just big pharma
1:29:09wants to make another buck? Or is there
1:29:12something deeper going on? [snorts]
1:29:15So, I've thought about this a lot. Um,
1:29:18I'm going to hit this at multiple
1:29:19levels, Michael. The first thing that
1:29:20I'm going to say is that for some people
1:29:23who have overwhelming complicated
1:29:24problems, they want to believe that they
1:29:27have a chemical problem. They don't want
1:29:28to believe that they have problems that
1:29:30they can actually have agency over. It
1:29:33is reassuring to be like, "It's not me.
1:29:36It's not my fault. It is my brain." And
1:29:38we should help those people break down
1:29:40their problems into little steps and
1:29:42guide them out of that. So I think there
1:29:44is a psychological component for some
1:29:46people.
1:29:46>> Say if if if it's something in my life
1:29:49and I have to figure out how to untie
1:29:51this knot.
1:29:52>> Yes.
1:29:52>> And I can't figure out how to untie this
1:29:54knot, I'm going to be even more
1:29:56desparing than I already am. Please just
1:29:58tell me it's a the structure of my brain
1:30:00and I can take a happy pill.
1:30:02>> Correct. Yeah. That is psychologically a
1:30:05much more comfortable place to live in.
1:30:07Yeah. Not my fault essentially. So So
1:30:10there's that. And I know we we I I
1:30:12touched a little bit on the um on um the
1:30:15pharmaceutical industry at the start.
1:30:17People do not realize that when you have
1:30:20a billion dollar industry and that's
1:30:21what this is, you know, with a big B,
1:30:23you know, they control the whole
1:30:26narrative about this. And so all of the
1:30:28academics at the leading institutions
1:30:30are all running clinical trials for drug
1:30:32companies. That's essentially how you
1:30:34become the head of Harvard, Yale,
1:30:36Baylor, Mount Sinai, any of these
1:30:37places. they are training uh the next
1:30:40generation of doctors. They are imbuing
1:30:42them with this idea that these are
1:30:45medical problems still even though
1:30:46there's no evidence of that depression
1:30:48is a medical problem and these drugs are
1:30:51safer and more effective. I think we
1:30:53have really perverted guild interests
1:30:56coming out of the American Psychiatric
1:30:58Association where you know psychiatrists
1:31:01we kind of differentiate ourselves from
1:31:03the other mental health professionals as
1:31:05being the ones who have the drugs and so
1:31:07our our organizations are also very pro-
1:31:11drug as well and so they overhype the
1:31:13benefits they minimize the harms because
1:31:15it makes us look better and feel more
1:31:17important. But the final thing, and this
1:31:20is what I think that a lot of people,
1:31:22they already know this. I'm going to say
1:31:24this, but they've been feeling it for
1:31:25years.
1:31:27The insurance industry. So doctors are
1:31:31incentivized to see more patients in
1:31:34less time. You make more seeing four
1:31:36people in an hour than you would
1:31:38spending an hour with one person and
1:31:40helping them through their issues. And
1:31:42so when you just have like a family
1:31:44medicine doctor there who's got 15
1:31:46minutes with you, you spent half the
1:31:48time talking about your cardiovascular
1:31:50health and then you say you're being
1:31:51depressed,
1:31:53that person [snorts] has an incentive to
1:31:55get that wrapped up as quickly as
1:31:57possible. I mean, they could ask you
1:31:58about all of those things, but all of a
1:32:00sudden you're crying. All of a sudden
1:32:02there's a huge emotional load. It gets
1:32:04messy. They don't want to deal with it.
1:32:06So, it's so much easier for them to say,
1:32:07"Well, you've got five out of nine
1:32:09symptoms on this depression rating
1:32:11scale. This means you're depressed and
1:32:14um you know, I don't want to hear about
1:32:15your problems,
1:32:16>> but I've got an FDA approved solution
1:32:18for this. Take the Lexa Pro."
1:32:20>> Yeah. I have a 130T time, so we're going
1:32:22to But I don't want to leave you with
1:32:24nothing.
1:32:25>> Yeah. So, it's a very clean, efficient
1:32:28way um for them to end to end the visit.
1:32:32Um, and you know, and I I don't want to
1:32:36this to sound too hard on doctors
1:32:38because I know they they want to help
1:32:41people, but it's just crazy that we've
1:32:45told the American public that they can
1:32:47actually go to their family medicine
1:32:49doctor and expect this person who has no
1:32:51training in relationships, work, you
1:32:53know, they don't even help you with your
1:32:55physical health. I mean, they're just
1:32:56kind of dishing out statins these days
1:32:58that that that we even expect them to do
1:33:00this. Um and so one of the big
1:33:02structural problems in psychiatry I
1:33:04think is we need to make um uh co
1:33:08coaches more available you know so you
1:33:10can go and see a family doctor and they
1:33:12don't feel like oh shoot I have this
1:33:14person in 10 minutes here's a script
1:33:16they go you know what you're having
1:33:17dietary problems don't worry in my
1:33:19office we've got a dietitian they're
1:33:21going to sit down with you you're going
1:33:23to be able to get that taken care of we
1:33:24have a lifestyle person you know we have
1:33:26someone who helps with relationships we
1:33:28have someone who helps with purpose and
1:33:29meaning We run groups here, you know,
1:33:31three days a week. You can come at five
1:33:33o'clock. We have a small group. We're
1:33:35doing these these sessions where we can
1:33:36really help you over time. We don't need
1:33:39to look for a quick fix. That's the kind
1:33:42of mental health um uh mental health
1:33:45care that we actually that we that we
1:33:47need now.
1:33:48>> Because when when you say the word
1:33:50coach, I I like the idea that you're
1:33:51suggesting. When you say the word coach
1:33:53though, I think of like the scammiest,
1:33:55scuzziest guy who calls himself a a guru
1:33:59allaround life coach who has the answers
1:34:01to everything and no proof that he's
1:34:03ever learned anything in his life.
1:34:05Correct. But that's not what you're
1:34:06suggesting. you're suggesting no no
1:34:07there's here we're gonna have your your
1:34:10dietary counselor and you're just going
1:34:12to be kind of focused on that and uh
1:34:14we're gonna have I don't know co coaches
1:34:17but in in
1:34:18>> let's just say let's say expert you know
1:34:20an expert someone someone with training
1:34:23>> I don't necessarily think they need to
1:34:25be a registered dietician or they need
1:34:27to be a licensed psychologist I think
1:34:30they need to be someone who has training
1:34:32in the area that you are struggling with
1:34:34>> well think about it when you go to the
1:34:35doctor you're you're dealing with a
1:34:37physician's assistant the whole time
1:34:38anyway. How frequently are you actually
1:34:39talking to the board certified medical
1:34:41doctor for like 2 seconds every visit.
1:34:44So we and we do this in every other part
1:34:46of our life too. You don't you don't
1:34:47always need you know the gold standard
1:34:51credentialed top person. And in fact,
1:34:53and here is one of and and this is why,
1:34:55you know, I may seem a little like kind
1:34:57of fofy because I'm like, oh, you know,
1:34:58coach and you know, this and that, but I
1:35:01actually think we need to wrestle away
1:35:03personal development from licensed
1:35:05professionals.
1:35:06>> Um, one of the most effective um
1:35:09treatments that we have for addiction is
1:35:11actually AA. Um, and so, Alcoholics
1:35:14Anonymous, this is a um, you can do a
1:35:16secular version, but traditionally it's
1:35:18a Christian faith-based uh, 12 steps.
1:35:21>> Um, which is essentially a curriculum.
1:35:23You're taking taking a moral inventory,
1:35:25writing your wrongs, you know, admitting
1:35:27that you're powerless, handing handing
1:35:29your life over to something greater than
1:35:31yourself and allowing it to help you
1:35:33change. You do that in unstructured. You
1:35:36do that in group settings, peer-to-peer.
1:35:39AA is one of the fastest growing
1:35:42community organizations out there.
1:35:44>> Many of them are kind of withering away.
1:35:46AA is growing. People really like it.
1:35:48These are not professionals. These are
1:35:50>> people helping each other who have a
1:35:52good curriculum. And so, you know what's
1:35:54amazing, too? I
1:35:56>> I have friends.
1:35:57>> Yeah.
1:35:57>> People I've known over the years,
1:36:00>> vastly different political views, vastly
1:36:02different ages, vastly different
1:36:04lifestyles. I mean, friends as desperate
1:36:06as you can possibly imagine. religious,
1:36:09all of it. [snorts]
1:36:11I've never heard anyone talk smack about
1:36:14AA and for people who have gone to it,
1:36:16I've only ever heard how much it
1:36:18benefited their lives. Yeah.
1:36:20>> Totally across the spectrum.
1:36:22>> And so, I mean, what
1:36:25I would like to see us stop relying on
1:36:28professionals for these problems. I
1:36:30would like us to see I I would like us
1:36:32to be helping each other in community. I
1:36:34have a close friend called Laura Delano.
1:36:36has a um a group called in a compass
1:36:38right now and they are doing this kind
1:36:40of work for um for mental health
1:36:43problems. They are getting people
1:36:44together who are coming off these
1:36:45medications. They are putting them in
1:36:47peer-led groups together. They've given
1:36:49them a curriculum. She is doing amazing
1:36:51work. And I really think we should be
1:36:53thinking more creatively about how to
1:36:55help people outside of go and see that
1:36:57doctor for 15 minutes.
1:36:58>> Okay, but hold on. Now, this I I totally
1:37:00agree with you, but this then raises a
1:37:02question that some people aren't going
1:37:03to want to confront, which is you say,
1:37:05"Look, we need we need to stop worrying
1:37:07about all these credentialed people and
1:37:08focus on what's really working." And
1:37:09look, AA is really working. And there's
1:37:11some spin-offs, but it's kind of the OG
1:37:13one, which is really just a kind of
1:37:15practical instantiation of Christian
1:37:17counseling and well, right?
1:37:22So ultim I've thought about this even
1:37:23personally how I can help some of my
1:37:25depressed friends
1:37:27>> where I can I could point to all the
1:37:28problems in their life but I said
1:37:31>> ultimately I think what a lot of it
1:37:33comes down to is
1:37:34>> they they don't want to admit that God
1:37:37exists and wants things for us.
1:37:40>> Yeah.
1:37:40>> And they they want a secular version.
1:37:44>> They want a scientistic version. They
1:37:46want they say I could never don't bring
1:37:50your religious mumbo jumbo in here. And
1:37:52my sneaking suspicion is if you don't to
1:37:56some degree acknowledge God in your life
1:38:01in the AA way to hand your life over to
1:38:03a higher power, an unnamed higher power.
1:38:05If you don't in some way do that, you're
1:38:08just not going to get better. Am I
1:38:11overstating it?
1:38:13>> I need to think about that. I need to
1:38:15think about it more because I think the
1:38:18thing that I love about Christianity and
1:38:21I love about religion is that there is a
1:38:23right and wrong. There there is a way to
1:38:26do things. There are the values in there
1:38:28things like you know live a life in
1:38:29service of others. Can you think of you
1:38:32know any better timeless advice that has
1:38:34always you know led to fulfillment and
1:38:37good relationships and all sorts of like
1:38:40if you just follow that all sorts of
1:38:41wonderful things happen into your life
1:38:43you know writing your wrongs you know it
1:38:47and so
1:38:49I I I do wonder that that I think that
1:38:52we are in a mental health crisis right
1:38:54now because of the loss of religion and
1:38:56because we've lost you know timeless
1:38:58that the timeless moral values that have
1:39:01come through religious teaching.
1:39:02>> I just suspect
1:39:04>> if I were a I think if I were an
1:39:06atheist, I would be some form of
1:39:09hedonist. Not I'm not saying I would
1:39:11necessarily do a bunch of blow and
1:39:12hookers and stuff all day. I'm saying a
1:39:14hedonist or an epicurion at least in the
1:39:17sense that I would I would just do
1:39:18things that gave me pleasure. Ideally,
1:39:20higher pleasures because I would have
1:39:22the reason to recognize that higher
1:39:24pleasures are a little less destructive
1:39:26than lower pleasures. But but I I think
1:39:29at the end of it at some point if I were
1:39:32those things at some point I think I
1:39:33would kill myself because at some point
1:39:35I would become frail, become injured,
1:39:39become old inside.
1:39:40>> I'd Yeah. At some at some point I I'd
1:39:42just have enough. I'd probably just have
1:39:43had enough of the pleasures and I'd
1:39:45probably kill myself.
1:39:46>> Mhm.
1:39:48>> Which I think is uh mortally sinful and
1:39:51very very terrible. Mhm.
1:39:52>> But I don't without the existence of God
1:39:55and rec and and what that means for my
1:39:57place in the cosmos and how I should
1:39:59behave,
1:40:01I I don't see how I would not at least
1:40:04be inclined toward the end point of
1:40:08depression, which is what we're all
1:40:09talking about. And you'd be right even
1:40:12statistically because that's what we
1:40:13find.
1:40:15>> Yeah. You're less likely to to be
1:40:17depressed if you grow up in a religious
1:40:18household. I mean that that's what we're
1:40:22saying that
1:40:25that makes sense.
1:40:26>> But imagine, you know, you're a
1:40:28psychologist. Like if I were a
1:40:29psychologist, I' i'd probably give
1:40:31roughly the same advice to all of my
1:40:33patients. Say like, "Hey,
1:40:34>> some people would freak out." You need
1:40:36God in your life.
1:40:36>> You need God. Like
1:40:37>> like you're some radical.
1:40:38>> Yeah. The thing that every wise person
1:40:41has said for all of human history and
1:40:42and every peasant
1:40:44>> statistically has said probably for all
1:40:46of history like you you need God. You
1:40:48need like good is to be done and pursued
1:40:50and evil avoided kind of you should live
1:40:53in an ordered way kind of basic stuff.
1:40:56>> Y
1:40:57>> but if you
1:40:59>> could a psychologist get away with that
1:41:01now the patient comes in oh dies
1:41:02>> they get reported
1:41:03>> they'd get reported they'd lose their
1:41:04license probably.
1:41:05>> Yeah they would get reported they'd get
1:41:07they would get you know negative
1:41:08reviews. this person putting pushing
1:41:10their ideology on me. This white male
1:41:13psychologist conservative, you know, you
1:41:15know, they are coming after. Yeah. They
1:41:18would come after you.
1:41:18>> The main thing that can help you, you're
1:41:20not allowed, you're not allowed to
1:41:22encourage.
1:41:23>> I know it's so crazy because we know how
1:41:25effective AA is, but therapy is
1:41:29>> they are so agnostic from all of that.
1:41:31And you've put your finger on what I
1:41:32think is one of the biggest problems in
1:41:34in the mental health industry is that
1:41:36lack of direction. They they they in in
1:41:39a guys to be accepting and and all of
1:41:41that. They have completely removed any
1:41:44moral teaching from from therapy. It's
1:41:46what do you think you know what what
1:41:48makes sense for you and your world and
1:41:49your family and all of that?
1:41:51>> Yeah.
1:41:51>> Yeah. Because this would this would be
1:41:54one reason why I would hesitate to go to
1:41:56a psychologist. If I felt great
1:41:57psychiatric stress, which which I don't
1:41:59happily, but if I did, plenty of people
1:42:01do,
1:42:02>> I would be reluctant to go to a
1:42:03psychologist because of the value
1:42:07neutrality of it in in a secular
1:42:09culture.
1:42:11In order to have confidence that someone
1:42:13can give me the advice needed to improve
1:42:15my life,
1:42:16>> I need to know that they have a proper
1:42:19conception of what is good and what is
1:42:22bad. That is the most basic thing that
1:42:24they need to have.
1:42:26>> And the way that the system is set up,
1:42:29>> generally speaking,
1:42:30>> I have no way of knowing if that's true.
1:42:33>> No. No, you don't. and they don't even
1:42:35want to mention it on their websites,
1:42:36you know, because they're going to, you
1:42:38know, freak some people out or or make
1:42:39them feel, you know, nervous. Um, but
1:42:42you're right. I mean, good and bad is
1:42:44important. And have you fixed the actual
1:42:46problem that I'm having? You have no way
1:42:48of knowing that either.
1:42:50>> And the thing that surprises people is
1:42:52most of these therapists that come out,
1:42:53they've been trained in cognitive
1:42:54behavioral therapy. It's just
1:42:56essentially a manual that teaches people
1:42:58to reflect on their thoughts. There's
1:43:00nothing practical in these major areas
1:43:02of your life. Um, it's a sad state.
1:43:06Yeah.
1:43:07>> Yeah. Rather than just, oh, reflect on
1:43:08your relationships, like, hey, leave
1:43:11your alcoholic
1:43:14pervert boyfriend. How about you just do
1:43:16that? Your life's going to improve 800%.
1:43:19>> You do that. Sorry to be judgy, but
1:43:21>> they'd be like, "No, you have to let the
1:43:22patient discover it for themselves." You
1:43:24know,
1:43:25>> have to ask open-ended questions, and
1:43:27maybe they will fall upon that truth in
1:43:29a couple of years.
1:43:30>> Yeah. Yeah. Do you think you should
1:43:32leave your alcoholic pervert boyfriend?
1:43:33I don't know. I would be
1:43:35>> and they're like, you don't want to
1:43:35enforce your views on them, you know?
1:43:38>> It's like, well, what am I here? What
1:43:39are they paying me for?
1:43:40>> I know. Yeah.
1:43:40>> What I thought they were paying me for
1:43:42my views, aren't No, maybe not. It's
1:43:44because I guess there's this pretense
1:43:47that you know okay in religion or in
1:43:50philosophy or in coaching even
1:43:53>> that's you know that's got values that's
1:43:56got uh a point of view that's loaded and
1:43:59prejudiced but therapy is
1:44:02>> neutral therapy is scientific and
1:44:05therefore it's totally neutral and
1:44:07outside the realm of value judgments.
1:44:10>> Correct. Yeah. which is obvious, not
1:44:12only false. Yeah.
1:44:14>> But absurd. Absurd because it's
1:44:16impossible.
1:44:16>> Yeah. And it doesn't work. And we know a
1:44:18lot of these other things work. We've
1:44:19seen it in AA. We see it bearing out in
1:44:22the statistics that
1:44:25why are people who are brought up in
1:44:26religious households happier? You know,
1:44:28what is it about that? Um what is it
1:44:30about their relationships and the way
1:44:32that they live their life and work? Do
1:44:34you think you could learn from that and
1:44:35bring some of that into therapy? But
1:44:38they don't. they it's because it comes
1:44:40from academia. It comes from these these
1:44:43colleges and these institutions and they
1:44:45are allergic to that.
1:44:47>> So can psychology be reformed? You know
1:44:52this is a question that comes up with
1:44:54the academic institutions. Can they be
1:44:56reformed? Do they have to be bulldozed?
1:44:58And do we need to start again? Can is
1:45:00there a way to reform the APA and the
1:45:03the way that psychology is practiced? Or
1:45:05no, do we need an alternative?
1:45:10I think um
1:45:15I think it is being reformed. Uh let let
1:45:17me speak to psychiatry right now because
1:45:19we're having recently we we're having
1:45:22some really big changes going on. Um so
1:45:25right now the um
1:45:29we've been able uh pharmaceutical
1:45:30companies have been able to do direct to
1:45:32consumer advertising since since the 80s
1:45:35and now um the Trump administration with
1:45:38Secretary Kennedy they are putting new
1:45:40rules there or the rolling back
1:45:42exemptions to it where essentially they
1:45:44have to list all of the risks with the
1:45:46medications on the ads which will
1:45:48essentially make it impossible to do
1:45:50these big broadcast ads because the risk
1:45:52>> you only get 30 seconds you only 30
1:45:53seconds. The risks are too much.
1:45:55>> So, we're going to get back the media,
1:45:57right? And so, that's going to because
1:45:58right now the media doesn't report on
1:46:00these things because they don't want to
1:46:01upset their advertisers. And so, I think
1:46:04we are going to get the media back from
1:46:06the from those money interests.
1:46:08>> Well, that's a great point that actually
1:46:09is might be lost on some people and
1:46:11because it only occurred to me just now
1:46:12anyway. Yeah,
1:46:13>> when you're watching uh the news, the
1:46:15nightly news, and they advertise some
1:46:17depression drug on there, the question
1:46:19is not merely does the pharma company
1:46:22have the right to advertise at all. It's
1:46:26also how how does the fact that the news
1:46:29is supported by the pharma company
1:46:31change the way that the news itself is
1:46:33reported?
1:46:34>> Obviously,
1:46:35>> I'm glad you brought that up and I and
1:46:36and it is a good point to emphasize.
1:46:38Yes, there is a reason that um
1:46:42um you know editors aren't covering this
1:46:44stuff. This this story comes across
1:46:45their desk and they go, "Do I really
1:46:47want to run this story that has a
1:46:48negative perspective of this drug when
1:46:51I'm making, you know, several million
1:46:52dollars from the manufacturer here?"
1:46:54Right? Aren't they just going to take
1:46:56their their ad spend and go to some
1:46:58other company?
1:47:00>> I don't want to have to fire people. I
1:47:01don't want to have to let people go. And
1:47:03so, yes, that's exactly what's
1:47:04happening. Um, and so when that ends, I
1:47:09think people are going to one, they're
1:47:10going to hear about the risks of these
1:47:12medications. They're not going to get
1:47:13such a lopsided view. And I hope we
1:47:15actually have, and people aren't going
1:47:17to like me for saying this, a much
1:47:19smaller pharmaceutical industry. I think
1:47:21jobsmen need to be lost. I think there
1:47:23needs to be less of an incentive to
1:47:25shove these drugs down the m down the
1:47:27throats of Americans and things like
1:47:28that. I think we need less of that. If
1:47:30the pharmaceutical industry shrinks,
1:47:32their influence over medicine, over the
1:47:35psych, you know, American psychiatric
1:47:36association, all of that will lessen and
1:47:39I think that will trickle down into
1:47:41practice. I mean, when you when you lop
1:47:43off the head of the biggest negative
1:47:45influence in the space, which is the
1:47:47pharmaceutical company,
1:47:49>> I think the downstream effects will lead
1:47:51to, you know, much more balanced um
1:47:56um correct mental health care,
1:47:58>> right? And and even for those who would
1:47:59object and say, well, that would have a
1:48:01negative effect on jobs in America or
1:48:03GDP in America, I would say, well, you
1:48:05know, GDP is not all the same. Jobs are
1:48:07not all the same. And so, wouldn't it be
1:48:09better to put American resources toward
1:48:12building things, innovating rather than
1:48:14frying the brains of menopausal women?
1:48:16>> Yeah. Yeah. I was say that. Yeah. Should
1:48:18we should we measure the success of a of
1:48:21a country over the fact that we Yeah. we
1:48:23don't have, you know, over a fifth of
1:48:25people taking these medications, right?
1:48:27Wouldn't that Wouldn't that be a
1:48:28wonderful thing?
1:48:29>> Yeah.
1:48:30>> And that we're not having, you know, one
1:48:32out of 216 men on these drugs
1:48:35essentially
1:48:36with sexual dysfunction and all of the
1:48:39problems that go on with that. I mean,
1:48:41that's so dark. It's so evil.
1:48:43>> Dr. Ysef, you if you had started the
1:48:46show just with just with the the warning
1:48:50that this high number of men who take
1:48:52the SSRI will have lifelong sexual
1:48:54dysfunction. I I think we could have
1:48:57persuaded at least half the country not
1:48:59to take these drugs in about 15 seconds
1:49:01rather than an hour and a half. Uh in
1:49:03any case, marvelous to hear all of this
1:49:05really really important perspective and
1:49:08uh thank you for hopefully uh helping to
1:49:09fix the fix the minds and spirits of
1:49:12many many Americans.
1:49:14>> Thank you for having me, Michael.

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