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Charla 218_Ya tengo el informe de BAP, ¿y ahora que hago? — Transcript

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0:28Oh. Good evening, friends of special
3:25education. Welcome to this special
3:28program on September 24, 2025. Well, we
3:32have two great guests, and I am going
3:36to introduce them because today we are
3:39going to look at this report or the
3:42results from applying the barrier
3:45identification instrument, right?
3:48Proposed by Dr. Pedro Covarrubias, who
3:50is already here with us, along with
3:52Professor Salvador Cano Galindo. So,
3:55I'm going to add them to the chat now
3:57so we can introduce ourselves. Here is
4:02Dr. Pedro. How are you, Dr. Pedro? Good
4:05evening.
4:05Hello, good evening. It's a pleasure to
4:08greet you, Professor Alfonso. A
4:10pleasure to share this space again with
4:12you and your audience. It is always a
4:16privilege to be on this program.
4:18Professor Salvador, good evening. Thank
4:21you for joining us, and welcome to
4:23everyone who is already connecting with
4:25us. We already have a few people there.
4:28Thanks for being here.
4:32Yes, talk 218; honestly, Pedro, Dr.
4:34Pedro is already a friend and basically
4:38a regular here on the show, right?
4:41Professor Salvador has also been
4:43joining in to participate in them. Well
4:47, quickly, Professor Salvador Cano
4:50Galindo works in special education
4:52around here. Today, he also has a
4:56teacher-to-teacher network where we've
4:59had the opportunity to participate in
5:01some of the activities he's been
5:03organizing, but he also works in
5:06special education, right? You're still
5:09an ATP, right, Professor? In a
5:11supervision zone here in Mexico City.
5:14Thank you, Professor. Uh-huh. He has
5:18held various roles; he was also a
5:20coordinator of the Cordi 2 here in
5:21Special Education, and, well, many,
5:23many things. So, we won't spend too
5:27much time on the introduction today,
5:29despite everything the doctor has done,
5:31but as you know, he is a researcher,
5:33gives presentations, and has many
5:35articles, right? He has traveled, I
5:38think, almost the entire country
5:39throughout the last year with this
5:41topic of barriers, right? He was
5:44invited to many spaces and many
5:46services, both in basic education
5:48schools and in special education. And
5:52well, that and more is what our dear
5:54friend Pedro Covarrubias does.
5:56Thank you.
5:57Well, today we are going to talk about:
6:00"I have the BAP report, now what do I
6:03do?" I think that's how we could start
6:07this, Pedro. Yes, look, uh, a year
6:11after the barriers instrument was
6:14published by the Ministry of Public
6:17Education last August, well, this year
6:20we took on the task of accompanying
6:23many services and entities so they
6:25could learn it, make it their own, and,
6:29above all, apply it, right? And we
6:33reached the point of, well, let's write
6:35the reports on barriers to learning and
6:38participation. And, well, the year
6:42allowed us to realize that, yes, many
6:44entities were working on it. There is
6:48still a lot to be done, and, as of now,
6:50I think we are at the stage where we
6:52already know it, we have applied the
6:55instrument, we have created a
6:56collective report, and many services
6:58have even applied it to individual
7:00cases. We already have the report for
7:03the boy, the girl, the adolescent; now,
7:05what comes next, right? So, this chat
7:08we are going to have among ourselves,
7:11well, it intends to do just that: give
7:14a vision, give an idea of where we
7:16could go, always with the caveat. And
7:20as I always tell you, ultimately what I
7:22suggest is just that—it's a proposal.
7:25It doesn't mean it's the only way or
7:29the best possible way, right? But it is
7:32always a proposal to contribute to
7:35improving the work. Yes. So take it
7:38with that, take it with that caveat
7:40that it's a proposal that is being
7:42built, that we are presenting to you as
7:45an audience, so that you can reflect on
7:47whether we are on the right track,
7:49whether we change it, remove things,
7:52etcetera, etcetera. So, well, greetings
7:55to all our colleagues who always follow
7:57us out there, and to the colleagues who
8:00are connecting now. So, basically
8:02that's it, Professor Alfonso. Your mic.
8:10Yes, I didn't notice. Before giving the
8:13floor to Professor Salvador, uh, do you
8:15remember that we had a talk where we
8:18talked about, we even did a survey here
8:20,
8:21Do you remember? We didn't do a survey
8:24on how it was being applied, but we
8:25didn't address what results it was
8:27yielding, and today is precisely about
8:29that. I mean, I already have that
8:33school diagnostic report, because
8:36remember that the proposal comes in two
8:38parts: one to evaluate the school and
8:41another to evaluate an individual
8:43student with whom I, as a teacher, am
8:46having some difficulties, so that I can
8:49recognize what possible barriers I am
8:52generating. And as a result of that, we
8:55were talking a couple of months ago,
8:57right? Before starting the school year,
9:01that there would be, or could be, this
9:03space precisely for after we gathered
9:05that information, on what to do and
9:07where to place it, which is what we are
9:10going to address today. I don't know,
9:13Professor Salvador, if you would like
9:14to add anything before we start with
9:16the proposal that...
9:20Uh, thank you very much. Good evening,
9:22Alfonso. Thank you very much, Dr. Pedro
9:24. Good evening. Uh, for my part, like
9:26everyone else, I'm interested to know,
9:29uh, on one hand, what is happening with
9:32the reports, how the schools are
9:35experiencing it. It is interesting,
9:37this part you are proposing about the
9:39follow-up that you have been carrying
9:41out regarding the application, but now
9:43it is more important and more
9:45interesting to see what we are going to
9:47do with the information. For the moment
9:50, it is thought that, uh, all of this
9:52reporting, in the case of barriers or
9:55whatever it may be, could be
9:56dissociated elements. Uh, well,
9:59sometimes teams face these situations.
10:03The analytical program is one thing,
10:05the improvement program is another, the
10:07barriers report is another. And well,
10:09no, it is not rare to hear, as part of
10:12those cultures, the so-called
10:14administrative burden. But well, it is
10:17important to point out that it becomes
10:19a burden when it is like this: when it
10:21is all separate, when it is all
10:22dissociated, when no relationship or
10:24utility is found. Even though all these
10:27instruments, up to the didactic plane
10:30and the corresponding planning, are
10:33linked; and as long as we use this
10:35information efficiently, the work must
10:38be streamlined. Let's wait for what the
10:41doctor tells us and see precisely how
10:44the teams can make use of this
10:46information in an agile way that really
10:49has an impact on practice and, above
10:52all, on learning. Thank you very much.
10:55And above all, to give the floor to
10:57Pedro, if you allow me, Pedro. Uh, I
11:00remember that when you go to these
11:02events, you have mentioned that the
11:04information derived from this analysis
11:07is also the responsibility of both the
11:09school and each teacher. I think there
11:12is already a lot of emphasis on that.
11:16Uh, and in some way, that information
11:18sometimes doesn't reach, right? Any of
11:21these elements that could be part of
11:23the analytical program or the
11:25improvement program. That's right,
11:28because we believe we don't generate
11:30barriers, we believe everything is fine
11:33regarding the intervention and the
11:35inclusion of everyone in those
11:37classrooms. And well, the idea is, uh,
11:40as a reference point for that starting
11:43point, Pedro.
11:44Sure. Yes, yes, yes. Well, first let me
11:47just greet the Ivicenesh community, the
11:49state normal school of Chihuahua. Thank
11:52you so much. I have my cheer squad here
11:54, the seventh-semester students of the
11:57degree program, and greetings to
11:59everyone at Levisiones. Thanks, thanks
12:02for being logged in. Yes, I think we
12:04need to reflect on this. We need to
12:07reflect on what we have contributed,
12:09how we have built it, where we have
12:11headed, and what is still missing. And
12:14the intention now, Mr. Alfonso, Mr.
12:16Salvador, is also to link it a bit with
12:18what was worked on in the last
12:19Technical Council during the intensive
12:22phase back in August. Yes, with these
12:25elements as well, so that this topic of
12:27barriers is no longer seen as something
12:29decontextualized from what the New
12:31Mexican School is asking of us, from
12:34what we are reviewing in the school
12:36technical councils. So, the idea of
12:40talking about this with you now has to
12:43do with how we are going to link it so
12:46it doesn't feel like they are separate,
12:48different things, or things that have
12:51nothing to do with what the New Mexican
12:54School is asking of us. So, that would
12:57be the goal. I don't know if you'd like
12:59us to start, or if there's any other
13:01comment before we begin,
13:05right? I think we can go ahead and
13:07start, and if something comes up we can
13:10supplement it here, or Mr. Salvador if
13:12he is ready, I don't know, professor.
13:14Salvador.
13:16We can move on.
13:17Look, we are going to divide the talk
13:19into two parts. First, what will I do
13:22with the school collective report? And
13:25second, then we come back here, discuss
13:28it briefly, and return to what we will
13:30do with the individual report once we
13:32apply it in a specific case. So I am
13:36going to share the presentation to
13:39guide myself through some ideas I have
13:41developed there. Let me just the
13:48PowerPoint presentation isn't appearing
13:50in the window here. Let's see if it
13:51loads now. Give me a second. I was
13:58struggling to get it to load earlier,
14:00you see. Let's see,
14:02let's see if it shows up now. But
14:04anyway, well, thank you very much to
14:08everyone connecting from many states
14:10across the Republic, right? Dr. Pedro
14:13brought a lot of fans. Yes, we paid for
14:17them to log in,
14:19right? It’s fine, because in the end,
14:21it’s also part of that training.
14:24And well, we also invite you to share
14:29your comments in a moment. There it is.
14:34Ready.
14:34Very well. Perfect. Um, well, so then,
14:37after the barriers report, what comes
14:40next? Alright. We start from, uh, the
14:43fact that we are basing this on the
14:46report, well, the instrument that was
14:49applied or published in August of last
14:52year. This instrument, which as you
14:55know, you are already familiar with,
14:57was kindly published by the Ministry of
15:00Public Education through the School
15:02Technical Councils and it has two, two
15:05benefits, it has two possibilities. The
15:07first, applying it as a school.
15:10Collective, right? To be able to have a
15:14diagnosis of what we are generating as
15:16educational centers, how many barriers
15:18we are creating, and the second part is
15:21when we already have a well-identified
15:24case, a specific condition, a specific
15:26need, or a situation of vulnerability.
15:29So, this is our base document that we
15:32have, which we are going to start from.
15:35We begin with the school collective
15:37report. Let's remember, teachers, that
15:41this exercise is something we should
15:43have done as a collective, not from the
15:46perspective of special education, not
15:48from the view of the primary, preschool
15:51, or secondary principal, but through
15:54collegiate work where we could all
15:56identify those indicators where we
15:58could say: "We as a school have indeed
16:01created these barriers for some of our
16:04students." So, this collective report
16:08would allow us to bring to the table
16:11the things that the school should be
16:14concerned about in some way, because we
16:17have generated certain barriers for
16:20some students. I am going to project an
16:24example here of a collective report,
16:27meaning how we could write it, always
16:30with the caveat that finally, each
16:32school center and each collective has
16:35its own way and style. There is no
16:39unique format for writing the report,
16:41but we do want to remember that the
16:43report has to be somewhat more
16:45qualitative, a little more, not just
16:47descriptive of which indicator and
16:49listing the indicators, but giving a
16:52more qualitative sense to the report.
16:55On the other hand, also remember that
16:58we can prioritize the order of the
17:00barriers that we believe are the most
17:03important to eliminate, or the most
17:05significant barriers that we can
17:08identify as a collective. So, let's go
17:11a bit further than just listing the
17:13indicators. I also remind you that each
17:17indicator in the instrument is designed
17:19in a general way. When I translate them
17:23into a report, I have to contextualize
17:26and particularize them, right? Because
17:29there are very general indicators. When
17:31I write the report, what I do is
17:34particularize them to what we as a
17:36collective have been identifying. So,
17:39this is an example that could serve as
17:41a guide, right? At the Venusano
17:44Carranza 3400 school, morning shift,
17:47structural barriers were identified, as
17:50children, adolescents, and youths
17:52continue to be served in exclusive
17:55classrooms, and some conditions are
17:58prioritized over others, in this case,
18:01giftedness. Regarding regulatory
18:04barriers, it was concluded that the
18:06presence of these children associated
18:08with a condition has not been
18:09incorporated into the analytical
18:11program, and we are unaware of the
18:13regulations governing the care of this
18:15population. The main barriers we
18:18identified as a group were prioritizing
18:21individual work over collaborative work
18:23, the lack of diversification due to
18:25not applying the UDL, and the absence
18:28of reasonable adjustments. Within
18:32attitudinal barriers, we still have
18:34exclusionary practices due to the low
18:36expectations held for this population.
18:39Prejudices or stereotypes prevail in
18:41the majority of teachers, and we have
18:43not addressed the discrimination based
18:45on gender and sociocultural condition
18:47that some students experience. In
18:49families, we also identified that low
18:51expectation and lack of appreciation
18:53for education. If you notice, this
18:56report concretizes perhaps all the
18:59indicators that the group identified,
19:01making them their own and crafting them
19:04into a more qualitative narrative. With
19:08this scenario, the school would now
19:10have the possibility of saying, "Well,
19:12what do we do now?" We already know
19:15what things we need to address. We
19:17already know where we need to focus.
19:21Remember that the exercise implies,
19:23teachers, that we have to perform the
19:25task by prioritizing the barriers. We
19:29would be very naive if we pretended
19:31that we could suddenly counter all the
19:34barriers we generate as a group. Right?
19:38So, we must prioritize which ones we
19:41need to start working on within the
19:45schools. Okay? So, don't get
19:48overwhelmed either, because I might
19:50find that we generate up to 10 or 15
19:53barriers as a group, and perhaps the
19:55work will overwhelm us. And precisely
19:58when we have this prioritization of
20:01barriers, we must also understand that
20:03we will not minimize or eliminate them
20:06all in the same way. Right? So, that is
20:09what we are going to analyze next. How
20:12do I use the school group's barrier
20:14report? Well, I start with the
20:17following. This collective barrier
20:20report, right? This report allows me to
20:24identify the problems in the different
20:27contexts. Okay? This has to do with
20:31what we worked on in the Technical
20:33Council. It has to do with the need to
20:37problematize, but this problematization
20:39goes beyond posing simple problems and
20:42simple answers; rather, it now invites
20:45us to reflect so that, when we
20:47problematize, we change our certainties
20:50: those certainties given as simple
20:52answers or shallow responses where we
20:55simply say: this happens because of
20:58this. Yes, but those certainties are
21:01closely linked to stereotypes,
21:03prejudices, and preconceived ideas. So,
21:07this collective barriers report
21:09contributes to the questioning that the
21:12school is currently carrying out, right
21:14? To change those certainties that
21:18haven't allowed us to see different
21:20alternatives or seek different
21:23solutions to the problems. Therefore,
21:26this collective barriers report is part
21:29of reading our reality. We are now
21:33strongly encouraged to reflect on the
21:35fact that the starting point is reading
21:37our reality. Because this changing,
21:40dynamic, moving reality, this reality
21:43of which we are a part, in which we are
21:45both subject and object, right? Is
21:49constantly changing. So, the collective
21:53barriers report is part of that reading
21:56of reality, not the entirety of it,
22:00because within this reading we must
22:03also analyze educational indicators,
22:07learning, community issues, and so on.
22:12But the collective barriers report can
22:15contribute to a part of that reading of
22:18reality. Therefore, this report helps
22:22nourish the socio-educational diagnosis
22:25; that is, it is part of the
22:27socio-educational diagnosis that
22:29schools have been working on for two
22:31years, and this would be the third year
22:34they are reviewing and updating it.
22:37Because, well, if reality is changing,
22:40then our socio-educational diagnoses
22:43cannot remain static or immovable. Each
22:46school year we should be reviewing it
22:49because surely some problems have been
22:51overcome, some still prevail, or new
22:53problems have emerged. So the report, I
22:58insist, is part of that reading of
23:00reality, and therefore, it is part of
23:02that socio-educational diagnosis. I
23:06insist, it is not the entire diagnosis,
23:08it is just a part of that diagnosis.
23:12When we have these problems already
23:15identified in the barriers report, then
23:17we must ask ourselves the following
23:20question. Is the problem linked to any
23:24formative field? Do the problems we
23:28find relate to any content, or any
23:30learning development process? Are they
23:34related to an articulating axis? Surely
23:37yes, with the inclusion axis, but
23:39perhaps with some other axes that might
23:42be there. When the answer is yes, then
23:46we must incorporate those problems into
23:50the analytical program, because then
23:53the response to some problems in that
23:56collective barriers report will be
23:59found when I link it to the analytical
24:02program, when I analyze some formative
24:05fields and some articulating axes. Yes?
24:10So, that is the first vision that we
24:13must have. I have this report and I
24:15have a series of barriers that we
24:17generated as a school collective. We
24:20must analyze them now and consider if
24:23those issues can be addressed within
24:26the analytical program, so we can
24:28incorporate them and tackle them from
24:31that analytical program. But then we
24:36also have to think if those issues are
24:38resolved at the didactic level—what
24:41do I mean by this? Some issues,
24:46teachers, will be resolved through my
24:49planning, my work, and my own awareness
24:52. For example, if as a collective we
24:57identify that I have low expectations
25:00of students associated with disability,
25:03for instance, maybe I don't need a
25:06whole project or to incorporate it into
25:09an analytical program; simply becoming
25:12aware that I have low expectations and
25:15transforming that conception is enough.
25:19With that, I start to eliminate a
25:21didactic barrier, right? So, there are
25:25some issues in the collective barrier
25:27report that we will address through the
25:29analytical program, but for others, you
25:31might say, "You know what?" From the
25:35didactic level. For example, we
25:37identified in the report we just saw
25:40that we keep prioritizing individual
25:43work. Maybe I don't need an entire
25:46project; simply by me saying in my
25:49practice, "Oh, wow, I'm not going to
25:51keep working so much individually with
25:54this student, and I'm going to plan
25:56more collective, cooperative, and
25:58participatory activities," I eliminate
26:01the barrier. So, some of these issues,
26:05I insist, we will see through the
26:07analytical program, but others we will
26:10see from the didactic level with
26:13adjustments in planning or through
26:15awareness—that awareness of our
26:18actions, our teaching work, our daily
26:20routine—and maybe with that, we will
26:23minimize or even eliminate that barrier
26:26. But if that’s not the case and we
26:30say, "You know what?" They require a
26:32collective planning process; it is a
26:35problem that involves the entire school
26:37collective. It requires that we all be
26:41involved in the solution to this
26:43problem. We all have to participate to
26:47minimize or eliminate it. If the answer
26:51is yes, then we move to the continuous
26:54improvement program. Yes? This
26:58continuous improvement program is fed
27:00by the issues from the
27:01socio-educational diagnosis and is fed
27:03by the information from the analytical
27:06program. Yes. And finally, the
27:09continuous improvement program will
27:11have a series of projects aimed not
27:12only at eliminating the collective's
27:14barriers but also at management
27:16processes, learning processes, and so
27:18on. But in the case we are currently
27:22focusing on, those are the barriers
27:24generated as a collective. In this case
27:28, if we all have to participate in the
27:30process to eliminate or minimize them,
27:33then we move to the continuous
27:34improvement program. Remember that
27:38these processes are permeated by
27:41co-design. Co-design, which has to do
27:44with that joint, collaborative, and
27:46participatory work, where we
27:48incorporate, reflect, and engage in
27:51dialogue. Okay? And now I can finally
27:55design a specific project to respond to
27:59that problem we found in the collective
28:02barriers report in order to propose
28:05actions that transform reality. For
28:09example, let's imagine that in the
28:11report I mentioned earlier, the school
28:14states that it is unaware of the
28:16regulatory guidelines for inclusion.
28:19That is a problem that requires
28:20planning by the entire collective. Yes.
28:23So, what can we do? We are going to
28:27incorporate a project as a collective
28:30into the continuous improvement program
28:32, where we set dates, goals, objectives
28:35, and resources to gradually learn
28:38about the regulatory documents that
28:40govern inclusion in the short, medium,
28:43and long term. Yes? So, who decides on
28:48these projects? The collective decides.
28:51Yes. The collective decides which
28:54problems we will respond to through an
28:57analytical program, which problems
28:59require planning a deeper, more
29:02specific project within the improvement
29:04program, and which problems could be
29:07solved perhaps even with a talk on
29:10sensitization and awareness. So, the
29:13options for resolving, minimizing, or
29:16eliminating these barriers will depend
29:19on the context we are in. On the
29:22reality we have, yes? On the analysis
29:25you make as a collective, on the
29:27reflections, the dialogue, and the
29:29participatory construction, so we don't
29:32think that we have to make a project
29:34for every single barrier to minimize it
29:36, right? Some barriers will be
29:39eliminated from another sphere, another
29:41space, another place, right? So, this
29:44would more or less be the initial
29:47vision when we have a barriers report
29:49from the school collective. I will
29:53briefly recap. Remember that this
29:55report is part of reading reality; it
29:57is not the entire reading of reality,
29:59therefore it is part of the
30:01socio-educational diagnosis. Some
30:03problems will be linked to a formative
30:05field or articulating axis; we
30:07incorporate them into the analytical
30:09program. Some will be solved from the
30:11didactic plane, yes, with adjustments
30:14and awareness. Others will require a
30:17more exhaustive planning process. We
30:19move to the continuous improvement
30:21program and create a project that
30:23allows me to transform reality. These
30:26projects include objectives, goals,
30:27timelines, evaluation indicators, and
30:29so on and so forth. All this is based
30:33on the foundation of the work that
30:35allows for co-design, collaborative and
30:38participatory work, where everyone's
30:40voices are important, but above all,
30:42the participation of everyone, right?
30:46So, well, this would be the first
30:48proposal that I would like for us to
30:51discuss now with Alfonso and with
30:53Professor Salvador, and then we will
30:56resume, well, and now with the
30:58individual report, but this is the
31:00first proposal that I put forward for
31:03you. Ready. Well, for this first part,
31:13I don't know if you want to start,
31:15Professor Salvador, and then I will add
31:18my comment.
31:19Yes, thank you very much. Yes, I find
31:21it very interesting, let's say, this
31:23connection that is being made, and I
31:25think something I would like to point
31:27out would be precisely a topic we
31:28talked about some time ago, which is
31:30the correlation of barriers. That is,
31:33not to think that barriers are
31:36disconnected elements, and that, for
31:38example, regulations go one way and
31:41didactic barriers go another, and that
31:44they merit, let's say, unique solutions
31:46for each. You just mentioned, in the
31:51example you gave of the Carranza school
31:54, several barriers: regulatory,
31:56didactic, attitudinal. And you said,
32:01after posing these, these questions
32:03about whether the problem has to do
32:05with content, learning development,
32:08articulation, etc., and prior to the
32:10co-design process, how can these be
32:13addressed from the analytical program
32:15and then landed in the didactic
32:17planning? And now the example is very
32:22clear when you talk about the
32:24regulations that require a more
32:26collective reflection and that involve
32:29everyone; in that sense, they would
32:31then be addressed from the continuous
32:34improvement program. The correlation,
32:40you said, in the didactic plane, in the
32:43didactic planning, awareness can help
32:46to eliminate and minimize, I would say,
32:49some of these attitudinal barriers, the
32:52low expectations that exist. But here
32:56we see how the regulation is then
32:58concatenated with the previous one. Why
33:01? Because the teacher, what does he
33:04have to become aware of? Not just that
33:07he has prejudices, yes, as a human
33:09being, but that there is also a very
33:11important role, which we have
33:13reiterated in several scenarios. The
33:16teacher must become aware that he is a
33:19public servant and, as such, is subject
33:21to compliance with norms and laws.
33:24Therefore, the development of this
33:27project, which is incorporated into the
33:30continuous improvement program to
33:33recognize the implications that
33:35regulations have, will support him in
33:38becoming aware of his role, let's say
33:43teacher, right? public servant. Yes.
33:46And about the obligations they have
33:48precisely to recognize, uh, normatively
33:51within the framework of rights as well,
33:53the students, and to be able to offer
33:56them work, uh, let's say, more directed
33:58precisely to the recognition of that
34:00variability that exists in the
34:02classroom. That is to say, these are
34:05not processes that move separately.
34:07Uh-huh. We also cannot say, "Well, um,
34:09which comes first, the chicken or the
34:11egg?""But rather, they go hand in hand.
34:13" Hm. The teacher becomes aware, right?
34:15By a chance event. Maybe yes, we cannot
34:19say it doesn't happen, but above all,
34:21they will become aware thanks to this
34:23project that moves in parallel within a
34:25continuous improvement program. For
34:28example, in what we were saying, a
34:30regulatory situation necessarily has to
34:33give the teacher or that teaching
34:35collective the possibility to reflect
34:38on the prejudices they have and how
34:40these translate into didactic barriers.
34:43Uh-huh. How does this way of thinking
34:46... "Well, people with disabilities
34:48can't," or "there can't be students who
34:51are gifted because the social context
34:53we are in is somewhat impoverished and
34:56children here don't thrive." So, the
35:00regulatory framework changes and
35:02finally forces them to take this
35:04position of inclusion in the face of
35:09diversity. Normatively speaking, I
35:11insist, it is not just about touching a
35:13sensitive nerve, but rather it has a
35:15reason for being. And in this same
35:17sense, they are also forced to say, "
35:20Okay, then how do I respond now?""And
35:23then here comes, precisely, uh, let's
35:26say, a process of new reflection on the
35:28synthetic programs, the co-design, and
35:31the analytical program." Is what we are
35:35allocating to teaching adequate? Hm.
35:40How this paradigm shift in my practice,
35:43this shift in certainty, should lead to
35:46rethinking the analytical program so
35:49that what is provided in teaching as a
35:51school project is truly, let's say,
35:54efficient for each and every one of the
35:57students from an inclusive perspective.
36:01Thank you.
36:04Yes, thank you, teacher. And
36:06Dr. Pedro, you are muted. It is off.
36:09Pedro.
36:09Yes, sorry. I think the reflection is
36:11important because we cannot think they
36:13are parallel processes. On one hand, a
36:16project; on the other, an analytical
36:18program. Ultimately, they are all aimed
36:21at collective reflection on what we are
36:23doing to improve the cultures, policies
36:26, and practices of the school center.
36:28Yes. And how much do I have to change
36:31on a personal level to improve my
36:33practice, to be more sensitive, to be
36:35more empathetic. Yes. And so, obviously
36:39, a project from a continuous
36:40improvement program will necessarily
36:42have to impact the way I conceive of
36:44teaching practice. Yes, Alfonso.
36:50Yes. And I wanted to take as an example
36:53what Mr. Salvador mentioned regarding,
36:55for instance, the regulations. We
36:58identify those barriers, because there
37:00we might have to generate a project,
37:03perhaps from the improvement process,
37:05right?,to address these situations. I
37:09was thinking right now about what is
37:11coming in relation to this, or what is
37:13being asked of us regarding
37:14mistreatment and child abuse, right?
37:17Which is a project that has to be
37:18developed throughout the school year so
37:21that these types of things do not
37:22happen. So, if we talk about regulatory
37:26barriers, we would have to carry out a
37:28similar exercise and, as an improvement
37:31process for compliance with regulations
37:33regarding the part of...I don't know if
37:35I want to position it in chapter 8 or
37:37in the inclusion axis, for example.
37:42That would help me, from that
37:43management side, to start placing it.
37:47And perhaps, as you were saying,
37:49because it is also very important to
37:50recognize the part of this change,
37:52right? How am I going to improve these
37:55processes? That might perhaps be at the
37:58direct level and with guidance from the
37:59authorities, right? To start seeing how
38:02this way I communicate with students is
38:04actually happening, speaking of
38:06attitudinal barriers, and that goes,
38:08perhaps, reflected in my activities at
38:10the didactic level. But there is
38:13follow-up to accommodate it, which
38:15could even be, look, I was just
38:17thinking, in the same improvement
38:19process, right? As a follow-up from
38:22there, as follow-up, but the impact
38:24will be at the didactic level.
38:28That is correct.
38:29Good. I don't know, um, now let's move
38:33on to the next part, does that sound
38:35okay? What happens? Because, um, we did
38:40realize that in, um...
38:43In many entities, individual work was
38:45prioritized, meaning there was no
38:47opportunity because the school did not
38:49want to apply the instrument for the
38:50collective. Many primary schools that
38:54do not have special education services
38:57did not carry out the collective
38:59analysis exercise and so, but perhaps
39:02they did apply the individual one. So I
39:05think the individual one was applied
39:07more in some cases, and in other
39:09entities they went more for the
39:11collective one, but well, the important
39:13thing is that we are moving forward in
39:15this part of integrating the
39:17assessments. Now, let's remember that
39:21once we have a student associated with
39:24a specific condition or need, or even a
39:27situation of vulnerability, we must
39:29remember that any student can face
39:32barriers. For instance, a student from
39:36an indigenous background might face
39:38barriers even without a disability or
39:41giftedness; their indigenous status
39:43alone could be a source of barriers. So
39:46, these are barriers that any student
39:48might face, right? More frequently,
39:50those in vulnerable situations. We set
39:54out to fill out the instrument and
39:56draft a brief report. Now, what do we
39:58do next? Let me share my screen again
40:02to perform this analysis of what it
40:05would be. Very well, after the
40:15individual report. Remember, teachers,
40:19that to reach the individual report
40:23stage, we must have gone through a
40:26sufficiently enriching process where we
40:29gathered information, observed, talked,
40:33interviewed, visited, collected
40:35evidence, and so on, in order to apply
40:39the instrument and then identify. Here
40:43is an example of an individual barrier
40:46report. For example, Rocio is a
40:48third-grade student associated with
40:51Level 1 ASD. The main barriers she
40:55faces are structural, as the school
40:57does not provide timely care due to a
41:00lack of specialists, arguing that they
41:04cannot provide compensatory support or
41:07specific programs, which also relates
41:10to regulations. Inside the classroom,
41:13Rocio faces didactic barriers, as the
41:16teacher does not diversify intervention
41:18strategies and does not know how to
41:20work with UDL principles. Which could
41:24address her needs. This situation means
41:27the teacher does not implement
41:29reasonable adjustments. What could be
41:31done for the student? The classroom and
41:35school environment where Rocio performs
41:38is characterized by rejection or
41:40indifference from her peers and
41:42teachers due to a lack of knowledge
41:44about her condition. This is one of the
41:48main attitudinal barriers to eliminate.
41:51She also faces classism due to her
41:54socioeconomic status, which makes her a
41:56target of discrimination. Her family
42:00does not accept and even rejects Rocio,
42:03considering her difficult to deal with.
42:08This is an example of how we can
42:10summarize, in a qualitative way, the
42:13barriers that emerged from the exercise
42:15of filling out the instrument. Okay?
42:20And here we can identify what needs to
42:22be done to work with Rocio. We must
42:27remember, teachers, that today we have
42:30to think about intervention in two ways
42:33. On one hand, let's imagine Rocío; on
42:37one hand, I do have to address the
42:40specific needs generated by her ASD,
42:43right? Those that are inherent to her
42:47—what am I going to do to cover the
42:50specific needs associated with her ASD,
42:52whether in the classroom, through
42:55specific supports, behaviors, etcetera?
42:59But on the other hand, what am I going
43:01to do to eliminate the barriers she is
43:03facing? So, the intervention today is
43:06in two directions, right? On one hand,
43:08addressing the specific need, but on
43:10the other, eliminating and minimizing
43:12the barriers. So, I already have
43:14Rocío's report here, along with the
43:17barriers report. Okay? How am I going
43:20to use it then? What is the path I
43:22could follow? Okay, first let's
43:26remember that this individual barriers
43:29report allowed us to identify and
43:31recognize the barriers that the student
43:35is facing. Right? How did we identify
43:39them? How did we recognize them in that
43:41initial process? Why? Because we had to
43:45make use of different inputs. We had
43:48conducted an interview with the student
43:50, observed her in the classroom,
43:53gathered evidence, and applied some
43:55detection processes, including some
43:58scales. We had talked to her mother,
44:01and well, between the support teacher,
44:02if there is one, and the regular
44:04classroom teacher. Remember that in
44:07case a school does not have a support
44:09team, the regular teacher has enough
44:11information to be able to fill out the
44:14instrument. It does not necessarily
44:16require the presence of a specialist.
44:19Why? Because we are not talking about
44:21the condition, we are not talking about
44:24the specific need, we are talking about
44:26the barriers they may face, and those I
44:28can identify within the environments.
44:30So, this individual barriers report was
44:33nourished by those inputs. And it
44:36allowed me to recognize the barriers
44:38the student is facing. Therefore, this
44:42report strengthens and complements the
44:45initial detection report in case the
44:48school has a support team and has done
44:51initial detection work. Right? So, the
44:55barriers report complements the initial
44:59detection report. That initial
45:02detection report that we know is more
45:04comprehensive, right? Which has more
45:08elements and more information, but this
45:11barriers report provides that
45:14complementary information, or it
45:17complements the psycho-pedagogical
45:20evaluation report in cases where the
45:23student had to undergo one. Got it? So
45:28this report is one more complement to
45:30that student's characterization. It
45:34isn't everything, but it is an
45:36important part because remember, I
45:38insist, the intervention goes in two
45:41directions: yes, the specific condition
45:43and need, but also the barriers to
45:45learning and participation they are
45:48facing. When we have this report, we
45:52must ask ourselves three fundamental
45:55questions: what type of structural,
45:57normative, didactic, or attitudinal
45:59barriers are they facing, and we must
46:02prioritize. Yes, prioritize, because
46:05someone might say, "You know what?
46:08Let's start with the didactic ones
46:10first because with the didactic ones,
46:12perhaps the attitudinal or structural
46:13ones will be solved." Or let's go with
46:17the attitudinal ones first because I am
46:18more interested right now in the
46:19socio-emotional and socio-affective
46:21development of the student, and then
46:22we'll look at the other barriers. So,
46:25first identify what type of barrier the
46:27student is facing in order to
46:29prioritize which ones we need to start
46:32addressing with an immediate
46:34intervention. Then, in what context are
46:38they facing them? Yes, are they facing
46:42them in the classroom, at school, in
46:44the family, or in the community? Here,
46:47we also have to differentiate. Why?
46:50Because it is not the same if the
46:52barrier is being faced or generated in
46:54the classroom as it is if it's being
46:56generated in the family. The strategy
46:59will be totally different depending on
47:02the context in which it is being
47:04generated. That is why I also have to
47:08identify the context in which the
47:10barrier is being generated to be able
47:12to make a very well-directed
47:14intervention plan, and then, what
47:17agents are generating them. Imagine,
47:21for example, that the student is
47:23suffering from discrimination, but the
47:25treatment will not be the same if the
47:28discrimination is being exercised by
47:30classmates in the classroom or by
47:32teachers at school. Right? In other
47:36words, the agent generating the barrier
47:39will also, in some way, determine the
47:42intervention. It is not the same what I
47:45can work on with the students, with the
47:47classmates of the student, for example,
47:50who are engaging in bullying, as what I
47:52might be working on with the family. So
47:55, these three questions allow me to
47:58start having clarity on what I have to
48:01do because, I insist, it will depend on
48:05the type of barrier, the context in
48:08which it presents itself, and the agent
48:11that generates it, which will set the
48:14tone for me to be able to start
48:17designing my intervention plan. This
48:22intervention plan, which on one hand
48:25definitely contemplates attending to
48:28the specific need and the condition,
48:31but this intervention plan must also
48:34consider minimizing the barriers to
48:36learning and participation that they
48:39are facing. And so, when I have this
48:44general overview, I can determine if
48:47the best approach is a specific program
48:50in the classroom, a project to work
48:52with the family, differentiated
48:54activities for the group teacher, or
48:57strategies for classmates; that is, I
49:00have to consider, with the information
49:02I have, which is the best alternative,
49:07or even which of those individual
49:09barriers being faced will be resolved
49:11through didactic planning at the
49:14instructional level. You know what,
49:16teacher? Look, let's start working on a
49:19diversified plan to minimize this,
49:22because perhaps didactic barriers must
49:24necessarily be resolved or minimized at
49:26the instructional level. There really
49:29is no other way, right? Or even, as we
49:32were just discussing with the
49:34collective, by the teacher becoming
49:36aware of their teaching practice,
49:38through that reflection on their work,
49:41they can eliminate or minimize a
49:43barrier. I am aware that I was
49:45discriminating against her in the
49:47classroom. The moment I become aware
49:50and it becomes evident, I can change my
49:52attitude toward her. Right? So, uh,
49:55what will be the best strategy?
49:59Whatever the context and the student
50:01are needing. Yes, there isn't just one,
50:04there isn't just one answer, there
50:06isn't just one strategy to minimize
50:07them. Everything will depend on the
50:10type of barriers, the context being
50:12faced, and the agent generating them.
50:14Right? So, we should reflect on this
50:17because now I am in a position to say,
50:20I will address these barriers through
50:22projects, with the family, with the
50:25students, with the classmates, or with
50:28the school. I will address these from
50:31the instructional level with the group
50:33teacher, this one with reflection, some
50:35sensitization with the classmates, with
50:37the teachers, et cetera. This would
50:41then allow me to start designing the
50:44action paths through which I would have
50:46the possibility to begin minimizing or
50:49eliminating the barriers. Remember,
50:53then, that this report is individual.
50:56It draws from various inputs; it is
50:58part of the initial text report or the
51:01psychopedagogical assessment, which
51:03finally leads us to this intervention
51:06plan, after we reflect on the type of
51:08barriers, contexts, and agents, and can
51:11decide the best alternative to begin
51:13minimizing or eliminating them. So,
51:17this would be more or less the proposal
51:19for what to do now with the individual
51:21report on barriers to learning and
51:23participation.
51:31Well, a very, very interesting proposal
51:33. Uh, let's wait and see if you have
51:37any comments here. If you want to
51:39locate them, if you give us a moment,
51:41we can integrate them into the
51:43discussion. Professor Salvador, would
51:46you like to take the floor?
51:48Yes, thank you. Let's see, please
51:51correct me if I'm wrong, Doctor. So,
51:55this second part, starting from the
51:57individual barrier report, seems to be
52:00more directed toward the processes
52:02developed by special education services
52:05, which are not separate. I would see
52:09this process you are describing as
52:12being led more by the special education
52:15services, right? It doesn't have to be
52:19worked on separately, but they play an
52:22even more prominent role here than in
52:25the previous one. In what sense?
52:29Because here, one must be able to
52:31emphasize that, although something
52:33situated within the student is being
52:35recognized, it is not the student who
52:38is facing that barrier, and I think
52:40those are the risks that groups might
52:43run when looking at the individual
52:45barrier report. That it is attributed
52:49to the particular subject due to their
52:52condition, disability, etc. So,
52:54thinking about special education teams,
52:59we should be supporting the groups to
53:02shift their focus away from the
53:05students and lead them to identify the
53:09role that each member of that group is
53:13playing around this student. Previously
53:19, in the other one, we were talking
53:21about a collective reflection process
53:23where all teachers realize that perhaps
53:26a lack of knowledge of the regulatory
53:28framework leads them to act based on
53:30certain prejudices. Here, we would be
53:34talking about how those prejudices
53:36affect, for example, a particular
53:38subject, and then the actions that will
53:41be taken in favor of this student more
53:43specifically. When you talk about
53:47attending to the specific need that
53:50this student requires due to such and
53:54such circumstance, then how are we now
53:57supporting the student through a more
54:00singular process
54:04to find the best conditions. Well,
54:08first let's remember that the
54:10instrument and the report, if there is
54:13a support team, must be filled out
54:16jointly. It is not an exclusive task
54:19for the support teacher, because there
54:21would be a bias. There would be a bias
54:24from the vision of the support teacher.
54:27If I fill out the instrument alone
54:29without consulting the regular teacher,
54:31it would be solely from my perspective
54:32as a special education service. We have
54:35to sit down together, read it, and fill
54:38it out, because the lead teacher has
54:40the information, the lead teacher knows
54:42the parents, the lead teacher observed
54:44him during recess, the lead teacher has
54:46the child all the time. So, for
54:49starters, that work should be joint.
54:52Yes, it should be the same, perhaps if
54:54the support teacher helps out and says,
54:56"Let me write that up for you." And
54:59then they present the write-up to the
55:01lead teacher. But the intervention must
55:04also be planned jointly. Yes. Perhaps
55:09the lead teacher might lack the
55:11elements to say, "Hey, I don't really
55:13know the specific needs of a
55:15communication disorder." Ah, well,
55:18that's where the communication teacher
55:20is there to orient you, support you,
55:22and guide you through this process,
55:23right? But the approach to removing
55:27barriers must also be a collaborative
55:29task. Yes? Why? Because then we would
55:32fall into what we've done for a long
55:34time, where the support teacher goes
55:36and tells the regular teacher, "You
55:38have to do this, you have to do that."
55:40And the regular teacher becomes an
55:43executor of tasks. We don't involve
55:46them in the participation, the design,
55:48or the rethinking of strategies. So, it
55:50has to be done jointly and
55:52collaboratively. It is not the
55:54exclusive function of the support
55:55teacher. Definitely not. In cases where
55:59there is no special education service,
56:01the task becomes complicated because
56:03the regular school will have to do it
56:05based on its own knowledge and by
56:06seeking support from an outside
56:08specialist. Yes, but I definitely don't
56:12want to leave the impression that all
56:16the work would fall solely on the
56:19support teacher or the USAER or UDEI
56:22teacher. I think it has to be joint and
56:26collaborative work regarding the
56:28application, review, and proposal of
56:31intervention options. Yes, sorry, I'm
56:34going to answer a question I saw in the
56:37chat about whether a student's
56:39socialization, like a student with ASD,
56:42could be considered a barrier. No,
56:45remember that barriers are not inherent
56:47to the student. What is inherent to the
56:50student is their condition and their
56:52needs, but socialization, communication
56:55, the learning process, the disorder,
56:57the symptom, the syndrome; those are
56:59inherent to the student. Those are not
57:02barriers to learning and participation.
57:05There you go. There are already so many
57:07questions, but I've already missed them
57:08.
57:09Yes, several have already been posted.
57:11If you'll let me weigh in, uh, I was
57:14just about to comment on that, because
57:17that condition will have an effect on
57:20the practice I develop in the classroom
57:23. Yes. Yes, and remember that the
57:28individual instrument will show us, uh,
57:31what barriers I might also be creating
57:35as a teacher or what tools or
57:40difficulties I have in intervening with
57:42those specific characteristics of the
57:44student. What could the behavior be? No
57:49, since several questions came in here,
57:51well, two questions I saw related to
57:53socialization or behavior; I mean, it
57:55doesn't have to do with the behavior,
57:57it has to do with me as a teacher, what
58:00tools I have to be able to provide an
58:02educational response to that specific
58:04need or condition of the student,
58:06regardless of whether they have a
58:08disability or a disorder. That is very
58:11important to consider. The instrument
58:15will somehow show me, when I look at
58:17myself, what difficulties I have, and
58:20in the other contexts where that
58:22student participates, I can identify
58:24some barriers to then, now yes,
58:27generate a proposal from my
58:28intervention, as the doctor was saying,
58:31perhaps in raising awareness, right?
58:35Because maybe I treat the child
58:37differently, maybe I individualize many
58:41activities, and that can help me
58:44observe myself and transform, in case
58:47there is no support service like the
58:50USAER or the UDI, uh, or generate some
58:53adjustment from my intervention because
58:57perhaps my strategies are not helping.
59:00I return to the point of coexistence,
59:02of sociability, right? To also favor
59:05that process, and then it's in my
59:07didactic plan, in my planning, or I
59:09have to design a project, some activity
59:11. That is very important, right? That
59:15the instrument is for identifying what
59:17barriers are being generated and, in my
59:20case as a teacher, how I am influencing
59:23them.
59:24That's right. I find what you just
59:27mentioned to be very pertinent, Alf
59:29Gonzo. I think this exercise forces
59:32both special education and regular
59:34education to reflect on the correlation
59:37that exists between the generation of
59:39barriers. Yes, because indeed someone
59:43might say it's a specific need, but
59:45perhaps it's not a specific need, but
59:48rather a manifestation of a problem
59:50generated by a barrier. Yes. So I think
59:54we really do have to perform a deeper
59:57analysis of those aspects, right? Very
59:59good. I'm not sure if you have any
1:00:02questions,
1:00:04if there are any. I just wanted to add
1:00:07something regarding the role of the
1:00:09support teacher or the specialist
1:00:11teacher,
1:00:13right? I think—I'll give the floor to
1:00:15Mr. Salvador now—
1:00:16and it has to do with that. I mean, I
1:00:19agree with what Dr. Pedro says: if I,
1:00:22as a specialist, create that tool, fill
1:00:24it out individually, and don't share it
1:00:27with the teacher, there's a risk that
1:00:30the teacher will just say, "Well, I'm
1:00:33not the one generating them." If we
1:00:36fill it out together, I think it will
1:00:38have more impact. And then, as a
1:00:40specialist teacher and a lead classroom
1:00:43teacher, it allows us to focus on the
1:00:46issues, or well, these barriers, and
1:00:49find strategies together to transform
1:00:52or minimize them. I think that is also
1:00:55very important because that is the idea
1:00:57. If we do it together, it will help me
1:01:00, as a special education teacher, to
1:01:02include what Mr. Salvador mentioned—
1:01:05what falls to us as a special education
1:01:07service—to help transform those
1:01:09practices or address those barriers,
1:01:12right? And that will depend on what we
1:01:15identify, whether it’s in raising
1:01:17awareness, or at the didactic level, in
1:01:19planning, or in projects or activities.
1:01:22I just wanted to point that out, Doctor
1:01:24.
1:01:26Mr. Salvador.
1:01:27Yes, this is just to try to answer some
1:01:31questions. Betty Gongwera is there
1:01:35asking if students can have barriers.
1:01:38There are questions regarding this. It
1:01:40is very important, right? Speaking of
1:01:43this paradigm shift, it's also about
1:01:45the proper way to express ourselves, in
1:01:47the sense that students don't "have"
1:01:49barriers; students "face" barriers, and
1:01:51in this case, we also need to de-center
1:01:52them from the individuals. We can't say
1:01:56the teacher is the barrier; the
1:01:58practices and the resources they use
1:02:00are what are creating the barriers. On
1:02:04one hand, and on the other, regarding
1:02:06this situation mentioned, I think a
1:02:09relevant point about the reports is
1:02:11prioritization, because indeed, there
1:02:14could be countless barriers; and even
1:02:16if we multiply these by the contexts,
1:02:19we could find diverse ones in each. But
1:02:22I do think it is important to be able
1:02:24to prioritize and also understand that,
1:02:27just because there is a barrier in a
1:02:29context (for example, socio-family,
1:02:31another in the classroom—that is, we
1:02:33identify them: classroom, school, and
1:02:35family), it doesn't necessarily mean we
1:02:37have to, quote-unquote, address them
1:02:39simultaneously. Meaning, I already
1:02:41identified that force—I identified
1:02:43barriers in the family context. No, I
1:02:45don't know if they are forces; they may
1:02:47exist or they may not, but I have to
1:02:49prioritize. And if I have the
1:02:51possibility or the need to work, let's
1:02:54say, as a substantive matter with the
1:02:56teaching staff on this sensitization,
1:02:59to make them recognize their role in
1:03:02the configuration of these barriers,
1:03:04then I focus on that. I’m not saying
1:03:08there are no barriers in the
1:03:09socio-family context, but perhaps right
1:03:11now it is a priority to work on them
1:03:13within the school, with the teaching
1:03:15staff, and then later, maybe...
1:03:18I move on to working with the families.
1:03:20Uh-huh. As you say, it depends on each
1:03:23group, it depends on each school, and
1:03:25it also depends on the urgency with
1:03:26which it needs to be addressed. And to
1:03:30return to the point that these barriers
1:03:32are correlated. At this moment, there
1:03:35may be families that effectively do not
1:03:36provide materials due to economic
1:03:38conditions and everything, but it is
1:03:40not the family—by not providing a
1:03:42resource, for example, the materials
1:03:44for the model project, right? The
1:03:46family didn't buy it. Ah, so that’s a
1:03:48barrier, right? We would have to see
1:03:50that, likely, the family doesn't have
1:03:52the funds. The teacher’s insistence
1:03:54that the student is evaluated based on
1:03:56that material is what is creating the
1:03:58barrier, not that the parent,
1:03:59quote-unquote, isn't fulfilling the
1:04:01delivery of those resources. So, we
1:04:04must also be able to go deep into the
1:04:06analysis of why certain circumstances
1:04:08occur, right? Why does a teacher
1:04:11disqualify, for example, a student of
1:04:14yours from an indigenous background? Ah
1:04:17. Yes, there must be a prejudice. Ah,
1:04:20it must be their own beliefs, it must
1:04:22have to do with their experiences,
1:04:24right? That the teacher himself, let's
1:04:28put it this way, uh, possesses some,
1:04:34how should I say, particular bad idea
1:04:36or he has something against indigenous
1:04:37communities? No, they are ultimately
1:04:39part of the customs
1:04:42that they keep dragging along, and we
1:04:43can't be that
1:04:45harsh in accusing the subjects, in this
1:04:47case the teachers, that they are the
1:04:50ones generating all the barriers. Yes,
1:04:52it's there. But how can we also
1:04:54sensitize them? People were asking how
1:04:56you sensitize a teacher when they don't
1:04:58recognize they are part of those
1:05:00barriers. Uh, well, maybe that's one of
1:05:03the biggest challenges; you have to be
1:05:04very sensitive. Yes, I think we are
1:05:07always asked that question: how do I
1:05:10get the teacher to be more sensitive?
1:05:13If you don't include them in the
1:05:14process, the teacher won't be sensitive
1:05:16. If you include them from the start of
1:05:18the process, the teacher begins to
1:05:20become sensitized. If you just arrive
1:05:22and say, "Look, I applied the
1:05:23instrument and here are the barriers,"
1:05:25that is not a way to sensitize the
1:05:27collective.
1:05:28Do it like this.
1:05:29Yes. Now, I've been asked, for example,
1:05:32where to start taking action? Remember
1:05:36that the classroom is primarily the
1:05:38privileged space for educational
1:05:41inclusion to start taking action. That
1:05:44is where we must start to have the
1:05:46greatest impact. I believe those are
1:05:48the main barriers we have to start
1:05:50working on, the barriers within the
1:05:53classroom, because it is the student's
1:05:55immediate learning context. Yes. And we
1:05:58also have to be very clear. There will
1:06:00be situations in the family that are
1:06:03beyond my reach. That I cannot modify,
1:06:06that even if the barrier is being
1:06:08generated in the family, no matter how
1:06:10much I want to, they won't change,
1:06:12because it doesn't depend on me anymore
1:06:14, it depends on the family's
1:06:15transformation, but that doesn't mean
1:06:17I'm not going to do anything, right? I
1:06:21mean, don't go to war already defeated,
1:06:23saying, "No, in this house, look, with
1:06:24these families it's impossible, don't
1:06:26even worry." No, let's do what we can.
1:06:29But being aware that there are contexts
1:06:31that might be out of my reach or my
1:06:33possibilities, but within the classroom
1:06:36, I do have greater possibilities. Yes,
1:06:39I think that would also be an important
1:06:41reflection. Are reasonable adjustments
1:06:44planned from the UDL? Oh, wow. Well,
1:06:46that's another matter that has to do
1:06:48with UDL. What I can say is that UDL is
1:06:54definitely a strategy to minimize
1:06:57didactic barriers. Eh, no, maybe it
1:07:01won't eliminate structural or
1:07:03regulatory barriers of other types, but
1:07:06UDL will help us minimize didactic
1:07:09barriers. Okay.
1:07:10There is an interesting question,
1:07:11Doctor, that I don't want to overlook,
1:07:13which says, "In the case of the CAM,
1:07:14how does it apply?""It would seem that
1:07:16it is something very different." The
1:07:18CAM is also a basic education school,
1:07:20of course, with a greater presence of
1:07:22students with disabilities than in
1:07:24other places. But, uh, how is it
1:07:26applied? I would have to do something
1:07:30different in the CAM,
1:07:31right? I think, as I insist, we have to
1:07:35contextualize all this with reality,
1:07:37with our educational center. Yes. I
1:07:41mean, even the instrument itself, as I
1:07:43have told you when we have worked on it
1:07:45, there are indicators that in a center
1:07:48, in a CAM, for example, cannot be
1:07:50considered barriers. Yes, for example,
1:07:53individual work is prioritized; in a
1:07:55regular school that would be a barrier,
1:07:57right? In a CAM, I cannot consider it a
1:08:01barrier. So, what do I have to do?
1:08:04Tailor it, right? Personalize it and
1:08:07contextualize it. That is why it is so
1:08:10important that we are aware of the
1:08:12reality we are facing. As I tell you,
1:08:15this is ultimately a proposal. Yes,
1:08:17perhaps in the CAM they will say, "This
1:08:19doesn't fit for me, this doesn't add up
1:08:22." I think we would have to go more
1:08:24toward a plan, maybe add another
1:08:26strategy, like an individual life plan,
1:08:28for example, I don't know, whatever. It
1:08:32has to be adapted, but the fact that it
1:08:34works and that the same logic should
1:08:37apply, I think the same logic could
1:08:39work in a CAM with the necessary
1:08:40adjustments for the population and for
1:08:43the type of CAM we are talking about,
1:08:45of course. Yes. Greetings to Tabasco,
1:08:47who sent us greetings. Thank you,
1:08:49Colima.
1:08:50Exactly. This is a very contextual
1:08:53situation because even though you are
1:08:54talking about education—let's say, I
1:08:56don't like the word "regular"—it
1:08:58won't be the same in preschool as in
1:09:00primary school, much less in secondary
1:09:02school with such large groups, right?
1:09:04For example, or in preschool with very
1:09:07unique development processes that are
1:09:09just beginning. So it is contextual,
1:09:11and hence the importance of exactly
1:09:13what was said from the beginning and
1:09:14what you have just affirmed. Reading
1:09:17the reality as a base process, aha,
1:09:19from which the group's reflection
1:09:21starts,
1:09:23right? And I also wanted to add, Doctor
1:09:26, regarding what Betty shared, if a
1:09:28student is not given their neurological
1:09:30treatment, which is required, can it be
1:09:32considered a barrier? Well, we go back
1:09:35to the same topic. I mean, regardless
1:09:38of the diagnosis or that neurological
1:09:40treatment, what am I doing? What
1:09:43difficulties might I be having in
1:09:45providing an educational response to
1:09:47this student with the characteristics
1:09:49they are presenting in the classroom?
1:09:51Yes. I mean, that's what I have to
1:09:53figure out. What do I do regarding this
1:09:55?
1:09:55Right,
1:09:56because this might actually be an
1:09:58obstacle to avoid including it as a
1:10:01barrier, since, well, the family isn't
1:10:03responding and that could be an
1:10:06analysis of the family context. Exactly
1:10:09,
1:10:10the lack of support, participation, for
1:10:12example.
1:10:14And if I just stay at the level of
1:10:16saying, "Since the family isn't
1:10:18providing the treatment, the family is
1:10:21the barrier, I can't do anything else,"
1:10:23then no. Okay. The family isn't
1:10:26providing the treatment, so then what
1:10:28am I going to do, I mean, how am I
1:10:29going to provide a response within the
1:10:31classroom? Yes, with what I have,
1:10:33because ultimately I have to attend to
1:10:35them. I mean, I can't shirk that
1:10:37responsibility by arguing, "Well, the
1:10:38family isn't providing the treatment."
1:10:41But look, something interesting happens
1:10:43because we often don't investigate why
1:10:46families act in certain ways. Yes. Um,
1:10:50someone told us once at an institution,
1:10:51"It's just that I've told the mom 10
1:10:53times to give them the treatment and
1:10:55she doesn't." I said, "And have you
1:10:57asked her why she doesn't?""No, well,
1:10:59maybe she doesn't give it because she
1:11:01can't afford to buy it." Maybe she
1:11:04doesn't give it because they had a
1:11:05reaction and she doesn't want her child
1:11:07to have that reaction anymore. Maybe
1:11:09she doesn't give it because the shaman
1:11:10is giving them teas to cure them. I
1:11:13mean, have you investigated the reason
1:11:15why the family isn't giving the
1:11:17treatment? So, maybe the family doesn't
1:11:20have structure and the lady spends her
1:11:22time running around, goes to work,
1:11:24comes back, goes to the market, and
1:11:26doesn't have a schedule that allows her
1:11:28to organize the medication. Sometimes
1:11:32we are very prone to judging the family
1:11:34without investigating and we say, "No,
1:11:37it's the family's fault, right?" So yes
1:11:40, we have to reflect that it could be a
1:11:42barrier from that point of view. The
1:11:44family doesn't provide treatment, yes,
1:11:46but there are other alternatives. What
1:11:48do I do inside the classroom? How do I
1:11:50support the family? Do I investigate
1:11:51enough with the family? Let's not stay
1:11:53—that is precisely what the video was
1:11:56talking about regarding reading reality
1:11:58. That is a certainty. Yes. The child
1:12:01isn't learning because the mom isn't
1:12:02giving the treatment. You are starting
1:12:04from a certainty, from a prejudice. You
1:12:07didn't really problematize it to get to
1:12:09the bottom of what is actually
1:12:11happening. So, that's why it's so
1:12:13important, right?
1:12:14Sorry, Pedro. And notice, I was just
1:12:16thinking about how to grant forgiveness
1:12:18, Maestro Salvador, so I don't lose my
1:12:19train of thought. Excuse me. Here, for
1:12:23example, on that last point, if perhaps
1:12:26we are having that same situation with
1:12:28several students in several classrooms,
1:12:31then that, notice, does become an issue
1:12:34we could direct toward the improvement
1:12:36process. There it is.
1:12:39As a collective.
1:12:41Exactly. And what would we have to do?
1:12:43Maybe hold talks, right? With the
1:12:46families to provide them with
1:12:48information, right? And that's where
1:12:52the support services would come in,
1:12:55like social work, the psychologist;
1:12:57that analysis is what will help us
1:12:59identify where we are going to place it
1:13:01.
1:13:04Uh-huh. Which is the most relevant part
1:13:06of today's talk, right? So that it can
1:13:10be useful to us, if that last point
1:13:12about families is only centered in my
1:13:14classroom, then it would also imply
1:13:16providing a response, perhaps on a
1:13:18didactic level, perhaps I'm thinking
1:13:20with a community project,
1:13:23for example,
1:13:25with service learning, involving the
1:13:27families and addressing it from there.
1:13:29So, that is what we have to analyze to
1:13:31see where we are going to place it.
1:13:33Maestro Salvador, excuse me.
1:13:35Don't worry about it. I think, I mean,
1:13:37I would go down a path that is somewhat
1:13:39—well, it's not that different, but
1:13:41it does make a difference. Do you
1:13:43remember, Doctor, that we once talked
1:13:45about factors and barriers, and we said
1:13:48that a family not providing the
1:13:49medication? The student is a barrier. I
1:13:52mean, I said at the time, it could be a
1:13:53factor that aggravates it. In this case
1:13:56, we recognize it is a barrier, but
1:13:58this is where we will prioritize. If
1:14:01the family doesn't give it to them, and
1:14:02I've spent a whole year telling them
1:14:04it's important to give it, regardless
1:14:05of whether I've investigated why they
1:14:07don't give it to them. If I am just
1:14:09sticking with "the family doesn't give
1:14:11it" and as a school we don't realize
1:14:14that, regardless of whether they give
1:14:16it or not, it is my responsibility as a
1:14:19school and my obligation to ensure this
1:14:21student is included in the learning
1:14:23processes and receives the best
1:14:25education possible. Then, this barrier
1:14:29becomes somewhat more of a priority
1:14:31within the framework of the student's
1:14:34rights, right? Not that they don't have
1:14:37the right to receive health medication,
1:14:38but as you rightly said, that doesn't
1:14:39depend on me. Alfonso says we can
1:14:42address this through work with parents.
1:14:46Perhaps something we've tested is that
1:14:48when you want the student's father to
1:14:50come in as a case, the father doesn't
1:14:51show up to the talks, but then I, as a
1:14:53school, can't just leave it at that.
1:14:55And this is what you were saying: I
1:14:57won't just sit by and do nothing about
1:14:59the family or families, but I will
1:15:01prioritize what is within my reach. I
1:15:04have to change this very certainty that
1:15:06if there's no medication, there's no
1:15:08learning. No, they don't have the
1:15:10medication and that will likely be a
1:15:12permanent condition; as a school, what
1:15:15do I have to do and what do I have to
1:15:17mobilize so that, without fail, that
1:15:19student participates and learns as much
1:15:21as possible given their circumstances?
1:15:24Okay. Greetings, Professor Francisco
1:15:28Vela. Teacher Tere Pineda is connected;
1:15:32a big hug and greetings.
1:15:36Well, I don't know, what do you think,
1:15:38Pedro, of these last two comments we
1:15:39made, including the teacher's?
1:15:42Well, I think the invitation holds some
1:15:44data on what happens at the university
1:15:47level. Teacher, it would seem that at
1:15:51the university level, inclusion, equity
1:15:53, and diversity are lost, diluted, or
1:15:56disappear. There really isn't much data
1:16:00on that. If you are very interested, I
1:16:04recommend you look for Dr. Rodolfo Cruz
1:16:07Badillo. He has many publications on
1:16:09higher education and inclusion
1:16:11processes at the university level.
1:16:13Rodolfo Cruz Badillo, a great
1:16:15researcher and a great friend as well;
1:16:17he has published a lot on the
1:16:19university level. I think you could
1:16:21find some answers there. Yes. Well,
1:16:25professor, I think this leads us to
1:16:27many points of reflection and leaves us
1:16:29with a lot of homework to do. I believe
1:16:33we still have a long way to go. It's
1:16:36not all that simple, it's not all that
1:16:38easy, but it's not so complex that it's
1:16:40impossible either. And that must also
1:16:42be made clear, right? It does involve a
1:16:45process of introspection, of reflecting
1:16:48, of connecting, of finding what we are
1:16:51invited to problematize, but really to
1:16:54problematize, to break things down to
1:16:56understand them, to find an answer, a
1:16:59meaning, and so on. There are many
1:17:02things we can definitely continue
1:17:04discussing. And well, I think the talk
1:17:08had the sole intention of proposing
1:17:10some possible courses of action,
1:17:13opening up some perspectives, and
1:17:16saying: "Wow! I can resolve this from a
1:17:19didactic level, or I can do it through
1:17:22the analytical program; perhaps as a
1:17:24collective, or maybe individually."
1:17:26It's about fostering this reflection,
1:17:28right?
1:17:32Yes. And I believe that is exactly the
1:17:35direction. We covered everything from
1:17:39the examples posed here by the doctor
1:17:41and Professor Salvador, to some ideas
1:17:43that I, as well, put forward. But it
1:17:47will depend on that, meaning, what the
1:17:50doctor started with: that analysis,
1:17:52that reflection, that problematization
1:17:54that I still think we find difficult to
1:17:57do, and then the derivation and
1:17:59prioritization of actions we need to
1:18:01take, right? And where we need to place
1:18:04them. I think that is part of what we
1:18:08are trying to bring to that reflection
1:18:10today, and let's manage to do something
1:18:13different and also truly concretize
1:18:15this analysis of that information from
1:18:18these valuable tools, right? The school
1:18:22tool and the individual tool, for them
1:18:25to help us, one to transform our
1:18:27practices and the other to provide an
1:18:29educational response to specific needs,
1:18:32right? The doctor was also mentioning
1:18:35that at the beginning of the talk. And
1:18:37well, thank you to everyone who joined
1:18:40us. We are going to wrap up. I am going
1:18:41to yield the floor. I don't know if you
1:18:43want to say something before, Pedro, or
1:18:45shall we go.
1:18:46Oh, well, finally, just to thank
1:18:48everyone who connected. We had quite an
1:18:52audience.
1:18:53Yes, we had quite an audience. Thanks
1:18:56to everyone who sent greetings. It is a
1:18:59pleasure to share with this audience
1:19:01that is always concerned, always
1:19:03occupied with wanting to reflect on
1:19:06their practice. That speaks to the fact
1:19:09that there is intention, that we are
1:19:10moving forward, that we are building
1:19:12together in this process of educational
1:19:14inclusion. Very grateful, Alfonso, as
1:19:18always, for providing me this space to
1:19:21share these ideas that I sometimes come
1:19:25up with and we propose. Remember, these
1:19:29are sometimes very personal ideas that
1:19:32I am interested in sharing with you. As
1:19:34I told you at the beginning, this is
1:19:37one vision. This is not what must be,
1:19:39nor how it must be. There are many ways
1:19:42. You have greater possibilities,
1:19:44perhaps more experience than I do. So,
1:19:47this is what it is about: simply
1:19:49generating discussion, generating
1:19:51reflection to move forward in this
1:19:54process. Alfonso, thank you very much,
1:19:56Professor Salvador, thank you for your
1:19:58comments, and to the entire audience,
1:20:00really, very grateful for all the
1:20:02comments you leave us. That gives us
1:20:05feedback. Many, many thanks, truly.
1:20:08Professor Salvador.
1:20:11Likewise, I would like to thank you
1:20:13first of all for the invitation, but
1:20:16above all also the doctor, because, I
1:20:19mean, in the end, the SEP isn't asking
1:20:21for his work. He, from his own
1:20:24necessity, from his social and
1:20:26educational commitment, is launching
1:20:30these proposals, and I think it is very
1:20:33, very commendable that despite being
1:20:36retired and all, he continues to be at
1:20:39the forefront, pushing us to reflect
1:20:42not by request, but out of genuine
1:20:45interest. And, of course, to each and
1:20:48every one of you who were in this
1:20:50transmission, a very good number of
1:20:52people who have followed, and well, we
1:20:55want to thank you for your questions.
1:20:58We hope that the information provided
1:21:00here also helps you reflect. Thank you.
1:21:02Thank you.
1:21:03Right? And I am grateful as well. Dr.
1:21:07Pedro, already a friend, and he's also
1:21:09part of the family, I tell you, he is
1:21:11part of special education, he is part
1:21:14of this home, of this space for talks,
1:21:16and we are always chatting when we
1:21:18communicate, thinking about how, right?
1:21:22How can we do it? And from there, we
1:21:25start imagining things, and they happen
1:21:27in these spaces. That is also very,
1:21:30very gratifying, and the fact that he
1:21:32says, "Well, let's launch this," right?
1:21:36Sometimes he also tells me, "Hey, let's
1:21:38work on this, and let this be the space
1:21:41where this is the spearhead of what is
1:21:43being gestated in the doctor's ideas,"
1:21:45well, that also honors us as a special
1:21:48education community today, right? And
1:21:51to all the people who were accompanying
1:21:53us. So, I have nothing left to do but
1:21:56to thank everyone again who connected.
1:21:58Spread the word because, truly, this
1:22:00information is very, very good; it will
1:22:03help us a lot in special education
1:22:05services, but also in basic education.
1:22:07I think that is where he was focusing
1:22:09the most, but let's focus on that. And
1:22:12well, Doctor, is there anything you
1:22:14would like to close with? Well, I think
1:22:18that, look, so we don't drag this out
1:22:20too long, we truly have work to do; we
1:22:23must reflect a lot, be very aware, and
1:22:26let's remember this. It is not about
1:22:31doing a thousand things overnight
1:22:33trying to eliminate every barrier.
1:22:36Let's be realistic with what we have
1:22:39and what we can do. Let's prioritize
1:22:41which things are the most important
1:22:43ones we really need to pay attention to
1:22:45. Yes, remember that we have a whole
1:22:48school year to work on short-, medium-,
1:22:50and long-term paths. We have options to
1:22:54do it from the classroom, from the
1:22:56project, from the analytical program,
1:22:58or simply by raising awareness. Yes,
1:23:00from the moment you say, "I am not
1:23:02making reasonable adjustments." Oh, wow
1:23:03, I should approach my support teacher.
1:23:05Hey, I'm missing out on making
1:23:06reasonable adjustments. Tell me how to
1:23:08make them, and why I need to do them. I
1:23:10mean, there are things where, by
1:23:12changing an attitude, by changing a
1:23:14practice, we can start to minimize
1:23:16barriers. And well, thank you so much,
1:23:20really, so many comments, it is a
1:23:22pleasure to greet you all, and thank
1:23:24you all very much.
1:23:27And remember, this, this talk is being
1:23:30recorded. Now Facebook only keeps it
1:23:33for 30 days, but the entire repository
1:23:36of all the talks, 218 with today's, can
1:23:39be found on our YouTube channel,
1:23:41Educación Especial Hoy. It's there so
1:23:44you don't wear yourselves out looking
1:23:46for it. I will upload today's talk to
1:23:49YouTube today so you can follow it
1:23:52there as well, which is a bit easier,
1:23:54but it stays here on the Facebook page
1:23:57for at least 30 days, which is what
1:23:59Facebook allows us now, right? As soon
1:24:02as these lives are done. And well, I
1:24:04have nothing left to do but thank
1:24:06everyone who connected. We had a peak
1:24:10of 330 people connected, right? And it
1:24:14will multiply and increase throughout
1:24:16the week, surely. Spread the word, and
1:24:19see you next week. Rest well, don't
1:24:22disconnect, Dr. Pedro, don't disconnect
1:24:24, Professor Salvador. See you next week
1:24:26. Take care, rest, and hopefully you
1:24:29can use this for next Friday's
1:24:30Technical Council. Good night, everyone
1:24:33.
1:24:33Thank you. Good night.

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