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Challenges to Freedom of Speech on College Campuses — Transcript

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0:03The Joint subcommittees will come to
0:05order we're going to start with a short
0:0850 second uh video clip then opening
0:11statements and then get right to our
0:13esteemed panel of uh of witnesses so
0:15let's let's start with the video
0:20[Applause]
0:28[Music]
0:32[Applause]
0:38we
0:41good what you gotur
0:52[Applause]
1:15oh well we uh um trigger warnings safe
1:18spaces safe zones shout
1:21Downs um
1:24microaggressions bias response teams and
1:27as we saw from the video even riots on
1:29campus today we want to thank you all
1:31for joining us uh in in the audience and
1:33certainly our Witnesses today this is
1:35our second in a series of hearings to
1:38highlight the first uh First Amendment
1:41the history of intellectual growth and
1:43Discovery clearly demonstrates the Need
1:45For unfettered Freedom the right to
1:46think the unthinkable discuss the
1:48unmentionable and challenge the
1:49unchallengeable that quote taken from
1:52the 1974 Woodward report at Yale
1:55summarizes the policy that was for years
1:58the gold standard of what free speech on
2:00campus should look like college is a
2:02place for young minds to be
2:03intellectually bombarded with new
2:06challenging ideas Unfortunately today on
2:09many campuses students and faculty are
2:11forced into
2:12self-censorship out of a fear of
2:15triggering violating a safe space a
2:17microaggression or being targeted by a
2:21bias Response Team restricting speech
2:23that does not conform to popular opin
2:25opinion contradicts the First Amendment
2:27principles and the right to speak freely
2:30without regard to offensiveness shout
2:33downs disinvitation and even violent
2:35writing as we saw in the video are some
2:37of the tactics used to silence opposing
2:39views in the most recent example of how
2:42not to promote free speech on campus
2:45students and even faculty at Evergreen
2:47State College berated and threatened
2:49Professor for questioning why a new
2:51campus initiative could not be debated
2:55the police eventually stepped in to warn
2:56the professor it was no longer safe
2:59think about this no longer safe for him
3:01to actually come to campus the college
3:05administrators stood by and did nothing
3:07in fact when asked to come and defend
3:08their speech uh Speech policies at
3:11today's hearing evergreen's President
3:13George Bridges refused to testify
3:16suggesting such policies truly are
3:19indefensible and he was not the only one
3:21to decline an invitation to defend the
3:23policies that limit speech and ideas on
3:26our college campuses I see in this past
3:29Academic Year by vient disruptions and
3:31the silencing of opposing opinions are
3:33detrimental to an educational
3:34environment where students can learn and
3:37engage in civil discourse this has
3:40serious ramifications for our public
3:42education system this committee is
3:44committed to help colleges reinstate the
3:47freedom of speech as an important
3:49protection after all it's no coincidence
3:52that the constitution framers prioritize
3:54the freedom of speech in the first the
3:57first amendment
3:59that I would like to recognize uh Mr
4:01chrishan morthy gentleman from Illinois
4:04for his opening
4:06statement thank you Mr chairman and
4:09thank you chairman Palmer and ranking
4:11member demings and thank you all for
4:13being here today um free speech is a
4:16Cornerstone of this nation's commitment
4:17to ensure that we have the most robust
4:20and wideopen discussion on issues that
4:22affect the public our first amendment
4:24protections are among our most cherished
4:27rights while certain restrictions on the
4:29time place and manner of speech can
4:32exist any law that seeks to limit the
4:35substance of speech should be approached
4:37with great caution restrictions may
4:40exist on how when and where people say
4:43things but the government fundamentally
4:46should not restrict what people say the
4:49Supreme Court has rightly held that
4:50practically any peaceably expressed idea
4:53cannot be suppressed by law no matter
4:55how unpopular repugnant crude or
4:58ill-informed
5:00it may be however Free Speech does not
5:03mean the right to be free from criticism
5:05as I have a right to State my view you
5:07have a right to disagree vocally
5:09passionately and peaceably no idea
5:12should be free from criticism this is
5:15why I am particularly concerned about a
5:18potential bill that's going to be
5:20discussed today a Wisconsin bill that
5:22would allow for the suspension or
5:24expulsion of any University of Wisconsin
5:27student who engages in quote
5:30indecent profane boisterous obscene
5:33unreasonably loud or other disorderly
5:35conduct that interferes with the free
5:37expression of others this law does not
5:40merely seek to restrict the time manner
5:43or place of speech but it threatens
5:47students with disciplinary action for
5:48exercising their first amendment rights
5:51while nobody should interfere with
5:53anyone else's free expression this bill
5:56as drafted opens the door for the state
5:58government to quash any form of student
6:01protest it offic its officials do not
6:03agree with whenever officials deem the
6:05conduct to be quote unquote
6:08indecent quote unquote boisterous or
6:11quote unquote profane regardless of the
6:14intentions behind this bill I am very
6:16concerned about the chilling effect on
6:18the rights of students to speak out
6:19against the ideas of others with whom
6:21they disagree ironically while
6:24proponents of the Wisconsin Bill claim
6:26that it is to protect free speech at the
6:28university the Bill's threat of harsh
6:30discipline against students who Express
6:32their opinions would have precisely the
6:35opposite effect the Anti-Defamation
6:38League which has worked for over a
6:40century to protect American Civil Rights
6:43and is represented here today has raised
6:46legitimate concerns with legislative
6:48efforts that would inhibit the Free
6:50Speech rights of students on any side of
6:53the debate as the ADL points out
6:56protecting free speech on college
6:58campuses should not be partisan and most
7:01importantly should not be legislated by
7:03Congress rather it should be left in the
7:06hands of the academy to that effect it
7:09is critical that in looking to address
7:11the challenges of free speech we do we
7:13do not do the very thing some here today
7:15have criticized colleges in doing
7:17suppressing certain forms of speech that
7:20may not be popular or is offensive to
7:23others as we examine the issue of free
7:25speech at our nation's colleges we are
7:27fortunate to be joined today by Mr Fred
7:29Lawrence the former president of
7:31brandise University and who can speak
7:33from firsthand experience the challenges
7:36University administrators face in
7:38balancing Free Speech rights on campuses
7:40Mr Lawrence understands the complexities
7:42of running a university in a way that
7:44legislators do not and can explain for
7:46us the difficulties campuses face when
7:49addressing Free Speech
7:51challenges ironically we have a
7:52situation here where we see some of my
7:55colleagues advocating for more
7:57government intrusion in an effort to
7:59quell the rights of students to
8:01challenge the ideas of speakers they may
8:03have profound disagreements with but
8:06just as important as it is for us to
8:07stand up for the rights of others to
8:09engage in speech that may be deeply
8:11offensive to some it is just as critical
8:14that we stand up for the rights of
8:15students to protest and speak out
8:17against speech they disagree with that
8:20isn't going to happen because of Greater
8:22more restrictive legislation such as the
8:24Wisconsin bill it will happen because
8:26colleges and universities are allowed
8:28the freedom and flexibility to encourage
8:31open expression among students and
8:33faculty thank you Mr chair chairman I I
8:36think the gentleman now recognize the uh
8:38subcommittee chairman Mr
8:40Palmer i y
8:45to I yield my time to the gentl woman
8:48from North Carolina Miss fox ladies
8:50recognize thank you Mr chairman and I
8:53thank uh chairman Palmer for giving me
8:56the opportunity to say a few words on
8:58this issue
9:00uh I welcome everyone to this uh joint
9:03subcommittee hearing today which is of
9:06particular interest to so many of us
9:08it's a real privilege for me to continue
9:10to serve on this committee while serving
9:12as chairwoman of the house committee on
9:14education the workforce many of you know
9:17I spent most of my adult life in higher
9:19education as both an instructor and
9:22administrator on a college campus our
9:25Founders believe that a free expression
9:26of ideas and speech were an essential
9:29Foundation to our nation and captured
9:31its importance in the First Amendment
9:34George Washington said it perfectly in
9:381783 if men or women he might add today
9:42are to be precluded from offering their
9:44sentiments on a matter which may involve
9:47the most serious and alarming
9:48consequences that can invite the
9:50consideration of mankind reason is of no
9:54use to us the freedom of speech may be
9:56taken away and dumb and Silent we may be
9:59led like sheep to the slaughter
10:02throughout our nation's history we the
10:04people have defended our right to
10:06express our beliefs and opinions no
10:09matter how unpopular without the fear of
10:12Retribution while the way in which we
10:14express ourselves has changed since our
10:16nation's founding Americans still hold
10:19tight to the belief that freedom of
10:21speech and expression are fundamental to
10:24who we are as a people according to a
10:272015 Pew research poll
10:2995% of Americans believe that people
10:33should be able to make statements that
10:34publicly criticize the government
10:37roughly 70% of Americans also considered
10:40it very important for people to be able
10:42to use the internet without government
10:44censorship on matters of free speech
10:47apparently this poll did not take into
10:49account individuals on college campuses
10:52who seem to disagree we're seeing a
10:55steady rise in anti-sp speech attacks on
10:57students faculty and envir Ed speakers
10:59on our campuses pressure from students
11:02faculty and Free Speech Advocates has
11:05put College administrators in a
11:07difficult position and the committee
11:09understands their frustration it is
11:12difficult to manage a campus when
11:13dealing with campus protests and other
11:16disruptions by students or other members
11:18of the Campus Community who simply do
11:20not want a certain point of view
11:22expressed on their campuses college
11:25campuses are supposed to be places where
11:27students and instructors are able to
11:29share share in diverse conversations on
11:32any Topic in order to better understand
11:35our society in my years in the classroom
11:38I love to see students thoughtfully and
11:41respectfully discuss the conflicting
11:43ideas I believe to these days to this
11:46day those discussions helped many
11:48students learn to express themselves as
11:51a lifelong learner they help me too I've
11:55often told people that the greatest
11:57compliment I ever
11:59received as a teacher was at the end of
12:02the semester
12:04evaluations when many of my students
12:06would say she taught me how to
12:10think there just is no greater
12:13compliment than that when we stifle free
12:16speech at our institutions of higher
12:18education we are depriving students of
12:21an open environment of thoughts and
12:23opinions this is especially true for
12:26public colleges and universities that
12:28receive direct taxpayer funding our
12:32public institutions of higher education
12:34should not be engaged in activities that
12:36would stifle any constitutionally
12:39protected speech of a member or invited
12:42guest in the educational community and
12:45while private colleges and universities
12:47do not have the same constitutional
12:49obligations as their public counterparts
12:52I hope we can all agree that they should
12:54do what they can to ensure their
12:56campuses Foster robust discussions that
12:59include all
13:01views today's joint subcommittee hearing
13:03will explore these concerns as well as
13:06how colleges May address these issues
13:08without unconstitutional restrictions on
13:11Free Speech the First Amendment promises
13:14a freedom of expression for all
13:16Americans and is the duty of Congress to
13:18ensure that those rights are protected
13:21on the campuses of our public colleges
13:23and universities while Congress is not
13:26in the business of defining what is and
13:28what what is not protected by the First
13:31Amendment we must guarantee this
13:33fundamental right is upheld I look
13:36forward to hearing from our Witnesses
13:38and members today as we have this
13:40important discussion on one of our
13:42nation's most Central rights and again I
13:45thank the gentleman for yielding I thank
13:47the gentle lady for her statement and uh
13:49her service as the education and
13:51Workforce chairman and we now recognize
13:52the ranking member of the subcommittee
13:53Miss
13:54emings thank you so much Mr chairman and
13:57thank you uh to our ranking member Mr
14:01Christ morphe as well uh good morning
14:04everyone and thank you all so much for
14:06being here I grew up in Jacksonville
14:10Florida my mother was a maid and my
14:13father a
14:15janitor but in spite of their lack of
14:17material wealth they gave me everything
14:20they had to support me and prepare me
14:25mentally physically and spiritually to
14:30succeed I am the youngest of seven
14:32children but the first in my family to
14:35go to college my parents life lessons
14:39helped to guide me in college when it
14:41was clear that there were some who did
14:43not want me there when I joined the
14:46Orlando Police Department when women and
14:50other minorities were still trying to
14:52find their way my parents life lessons
14:55guided me and even here they still guide
14:58me in the United States Congress I've
15:02taken three Oaths in my lifetime one as
15:05a young police officer in
15:091984 one when I was sworn in as the
15:12police chief and the third when I was
15:15sworn in as a member to to serve in the
15:19115th session of the US House of
15:22Representatives in each oath I swore
15:25that I would protect and defend the
15:28Constitution of the United States
15:30against all enemies foreign and
15:34domestic I have taken each oath very
15:38very seriously as a law enforcement
15:41officer I had several occasions to
15:43provide security for many groups while
15:46they exercise their first amendment
15:49rights groups like the clu Klux Clan and
15:52the neonnazi movement there I was
15:57providing much needed protection and if
16:00anyone someone anyone had tried to harm
16:04them in any way I would have risked my
16:07life to protect them not because I
16:10agreed with their speech but because I
16:14agreed with their right to speak their
16:18right as guaranteed by the first
16:21amendment I appreciate this opportunity
16:24to shine a light on the Real Clear and
16:27Present Danger fac in colleges and
16:30universities around the nation the
16:33problem is not high-profile speakers
16:36like an culture the clear and present
16:39danger is the increase in white
16:41supremist hate groups on campuses and
16:44the targeting and harassing of students
16:47because of their race religion gender
16:50and sexual identity for the 2016 and
16:542017 school year the anti-deformation
16:56league reported that students faculty
16:59and staff on 110 American college
17:03campuses were confronted by
17:06159 separate incidents of racist flyers
17:10and
17:11stickers the Southern Poverty Law Center
17:14reported that in 10 days alone after
17:16last year's election there were 140
17:19incidents of hate bias attacks on
17:22University campuses most recently on May
17:251st of this year at American University
17:30bananas tied with noes were hung across
17:33the campus after the school elected its
17:36first African-American Student
17:38Government President Taylor dumpson who
17:40I understand is with us today now I was
17:42proud when Taylor was elected because it
17:46demonstrated our progress much needed
17:49progress as a nation but the words AKA
17:52free were written on the bananas
17:55referring to the predominantly
17:57African-American sorority of which which
17:59Taylor is a member Taylor was also
18:01subjected to a cyber bullying campaign
18:04by a white supremist group on social
18:06media the Federal Bureau of
18:08Investigation is investigating these
18:10unprotected illegal expressions of
18:13speech that Taylor was subjected to as a
18:16hate crime the operative word here is
18:19crime Mr chairman I would ask that a
18:22written statement from Taylor about the
18:23hate speech attacks and harassment she
18:25was subjected to on the campus of
18:27American University to be included in
18:29the hearing not objection thank you so
18:32much as Taylor explained and I quote I
18:35applied to college like all of our
18:37children do when I applied I thought I
18:40would meet new people and learn new
18:42things not be the victim of a racially
18:45motivated hate crime and cyber bullying
18:48that would interrupt my academics and
18:49disrupt my mental emotional and physical
18:52health as stated earlier what happened
18:55in Taylor's case is being investigated
18:58by the f FBI Mr chairman Public Safety
19:02trumps everything for students like
19:05Taylor the issue of free speech on
19:07college campuses isn't a right or left
19:10issue whether it's about criminal acts
19:12being wrapped in banners of free speech
19:16it is knowing that the symbols and
19:18language from 400 years of torture and
19:21Terror are enough to strike fear in the
19:23hearts of every student of color as we
19:27examine the issue of free speech te on
19:29college campuses let's keep the focus on
19:31addressing some of the real danger which
19:33are any acts of violence attempts to
19:35threaten intimidate bully harass or
19:38violate any laws that this nation holds
19:41quite dear for even with the guiding
19:44principles of the United States
19:46Constitution we are a nation of laws and
19:51Public Safety always has been and still
19:54is my number one concern thank you so
19:57much Mr chair chman and I yield back
19:59thank you the Gent lady uh without
20:01objection the chair is authorized to
20:02declare recess at any time and the chair
20:05will also hold open for five legislative
20:07days uh for any members who'd like to
20:09submit a re written statement uh finally
20:12the chair welcomes Mr Blum Mr danas this
20:14morning and the chair also notes the
20:16presidents of Congressman Brad Thompson
20:18and and Mr Rooney without objection
20:19these members are welcome to fully
20:21participate in today's hearing I want to
20:23show one other quick video clip before
20:25we get to our panel and this is about 20
20:27seconds we can show that real
20:35quick okay so so the priority is that
20:39they stay in that room if they aren't in
20:41that room then we did something wrong so
20:43you need to watch that door watch all
20:44the doors watch the windows you need to
20:46keep eyes on them and someone need to go
20:48in that room real quick to make sure
20:49that there's no way room for them to
20:51leave that's the number
20:54one are you all clear cool thank you I
21:02um this is where it all ends you start
21:05with the safe spaces safe Zone trigger
21:08warnings microaggressions bias response
21:10teams and even rots as we saw in the
21:12first video and where does it end it
21:14ends with students holding hostage a
21:17president of the university and he has
21:19to ask permission to go to the men's
21:22room that's why we're having this
21:24hearing that's why we're highlighting
21:25the attacks on the First Amendment and
21:28now I'm pleased to recognize our
21:29distinguished panel I'd like to start
21:31with uh Miss Nadine straon law professor
21:33at NYU University and also a long career
21:36uh working with the American civil
21:38liberties Union we welcome you here miss
21:40Sten uh Mr Ben Shapiro editor and chief
21:43of the daily wire um and uh columnus we
21:46we appreciate uh you being here as well
21:48Mr Shapiro Mr Adam Corolla comedian
21:50radio personality and TV host welcome as
21:53well uh Dr Zimmerman uh former provos
21:56and vice president for mic Affairs at
22:00Evergreen State College the college that
22:02was just part of that last video clip
22:05and more importantly former president
22:07Oberlin College in uh in the fourth
22:11district of Ohio we welcome you Mr
22:12Zimmerman as well and Mr Frederick
22:14Lawrence with the Anti-Defamation League
22:16welcome as well it's the uh uh committee
22:18rules pursuant to committee rules we ask
22:20you all stand and be uh sworn in so if
22:22you please stand raise your right
22:26hand do you solemly swear a affirm that
22:28the testimony you're about to give will
22:29be the truth the whole truth and nothing
22:31but the truth let the record show that
22:34everyone answered in the affirmative
22:37Miss Ron you know how this works you've
22:38done it before you get five minutes more
22:39or less we appreciate less but somewhere
22:41in that vicinity be great and you're now
22:44recognized for your five minutes uh
22:46thank you so much chairman Gordon and uh
22:48Jordan and other distinguished committee
22:51members I am so grateful for your
22:54eloquent fervent commitment to freedom
22:57of speech in especially on college
22:59campuses where it's particularly
23:01important and for including me in these
23:04important hearings as the opening
23:06statements have made clear all of us
23:09share a general neutral commitment to
23:12freedom of speech in the abstract but
23:15the difficulty is when we hear ideas
23:20that we hate it becomes very hard as
23:24Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes enjoined
23:26us all to do to defend Freedom even for
23:30the thought that we hate so I urge all
23:34students and others on campus to respect
23:38freedom of speech for speakers they
23:42strongly disagree with but I also
23:46picking up on the point that Mr uh
23:48Krishna Morty made also firmly defend
23:52freedom of speech for protesters for
23:55peaceful
23:57non-disruptive protest protesters
23:59against those speakers this is the
24:01genius of the first amendment I share
24:04the concern that uh Miss demings raised
24:07and also that Mr Jordan raised about
24:11violations of law you know the the legal
24:15infractions the crimes that were
24:16committed against the administrators
24:19that we saw uh but crimes including hate
24:22crimes that are committed against
24:24students uh we do not need to Cho choose
24:29between robust freedom of speech and
24:32these counterveiling concerns of
24:35equality and respecting Law and Order
24:39the question is what is the appropriate
24:41response to ideas that we disagree with
24:44including hateful ideas and here I'm
24:47happy to say that the Anti-Defamation
24:49League the Southern Southern Poverty Law
24:51Center the ACU we are all on the same
24:54page that we need not and should not
24:57sacrifice robust freedom of speech in
25:00order to counter hateful ideas and hate
25:04crimes uh in fact the appropriate answer
25:08as the Supreme Court has said is more
25:11speech counter speech and interestingly
25:14enough uh evidence demonstrates that it
25:17is far more effective than censorship in
25:21robustly effectively countering ideas
25:24that we disagree with I'm working on a
25:26book right now and this is the whole
25:28theme of the book summed up in the title
25:31hate all caps because that is a very
25:34serious problem in this country but the
25:36subtitle is fighting it with free speech
25:40not censorship uh and we really have to
25:44educate the activists the students on
25:47today's campuses I have to say uh as an
25:49activist from the 60s and 70s I'm
25:52thrilled by the Resurgence of student
25:54activism in support of racial Justice
25:57and social justice I'm really heartened
25:59by their bringing in voices who were
26:02traditionally marginalized and
26:04disempowered but I am disheartened by
26:07their apparent belief that freedom of
26:10speech is an enemy nothing could be
26:12further from the truth the whole
26:15struggle for racial Justice throughout
26:17the history of this country starting
26:19with the abolitionists going through the
26:21Civil Rights Movement uh con and every
26:23movement for social justice including
26:26for women's rights and uh LGB BT rights
26:29has depended critically on robust
26:32freedom of speech including for ideas
26:35that were controversial and hated now in
26:38addition to misunderstanding how
26:41essential freedom of speech including
26:43for hated ideas and hateful speech is uh
26:47there's too much misunderstanding about
26:49what the First Amendment actually means
26:52uh we hear Too Many statements about
26:55so-called hate speech which by the way
26:57has no it's not a legal term of art it
26:59has no accepted definition so it is
27:02generally used to describe speech that
27:05conveys hateful ideas on the basis of
27:08certain personal characteristics that
27:10traditionally have been bases of
27:11discrimination race religion gender and
27:14sexual orientation among others uh we
27:18hear constantly statements that hate
27:20speech is not free speech absolutely
27:23wrong but we also hear equally incorrect
27:26statements that hate speech is
27:28absolutely protected also equally wrong
27:32The Genius of our Supreme Court
27:34decisions on this issue and here the
27:36court has been very unified from right
27:39to left setting a model that we should
27:41all emulate in the rest of the world
27:42this is not a partis or ideological
27:45issue uh they have laid down two core
27:49Free Speech principles one when hate
27:52speech or any other dislike speech may
27:55not be punished and one when it may be
27:57punished and I think they are brilliant
28:00and make great Common Sense including in
28:02this context number one speech may never
28:05be censored just because we revile its
28:09ideas that's called Viewpoint neutrality
28:12number two and this picks up on points
28:15that Miss demings in particular made uh
28:17and and uh was also made by uh uh other
28:21speakers the opening speakers that if
28:24the speech does cause what is often
28:27called a clear and present danger of
28:31harm including instilling a reasonable
28:35fear that you will be attacked the
28:37incidents of the nues uh that
28:39constituted targeted harassment and
28:42threats which may and should be punished
28:46consistent with existing Free Speech
28:48principles so I think if people
28:50understood both the common sense
28:53distinction that our law draws between
28:56protecting ideas that we hate versus not
29:01protecting but strongly punishing speech
29:05that actually directly causes imminent
29:09serious harm then there would be much
29:11more acceptance of it and I'd like to uh
29:14and support for it neutrally I'd like to
29:17end by uh quoting there's so many that I
29:20could quote prominent minority leaders
29:24who recently have spoken out against s
29:28sship on campus uh not only because it
29:31is wrong in principle but also because
29:33it is disempowering to the student
29:37activists who are seeking greater
29:39Justice and there are many examples one
29:41would be former president Obama himself
29:44but I'm going to uh quote somebody who
29:46is actually a university president Ruth
29:49Simmons former president of Brown
29:52University the first African-American
29:54president of any ivy league university
29:57and the first female president of brown
30:00she said I believe that learning at its
30:02best is the antithesis of comfort so if
30:05you come to this campus for Comfort I
30:07would urge you to walk through Yan Iron
30:10Gate but if you seek betterment for
30:12yourself for your community and
30:15posterity stay and fight thank you thank
30:19you Miss Dawson Mr Shapiro it's an honor
30:22to testify it's an honor to testify
30:24before you here today the reason that
30:25I'm with you is that I speak on dozens
30:27of college campuses every year so I have
30:29some firsthand experience with the
30:31anti-ir amendment activities that have
30:33been taking places on on the college
30:34campuses I've encountered anti- Free
30:36Speech measures administrative cowardice
30:38even physical violence at campuses
30:39ranging from California State University
30:41of Los Angeles to University of
30:42Wisconsin in Madison which is driving
30:44the legislation uh that Miss demings was
30:46talking about to Penn State University
30:48to UC Berkeley and I am not alone in
30:51order to understand what's been going on
30:53at some of our college campuses it's
30:55necessary to explore the ideology that
30:56provides the impetus for a lot of the
30:58protesters who violently obstruct events
31:00pull fire alarms assault professors and
31:02even other students and the impetus for
31:05administrators who all too often humor
31:07these protesters free speech is under
31:09assault because of a three-step argument
31:11made by The Advocates and justifiers of
31:13violence the first step is they say that
31:15the validity or invalidity of an
31:17argument can be judged solely by the
31:19ethnic sexual racial or cultural
31:21identity of the person making the
31:23argument the second step is that they
31:24claim those who say otherwise are
31:26engaging in what they call verbal
31:27violence and the final step is they
31:29conclude that physical violence is
31:30sometimes justified in order to stop
31:32such verbal violence so let's examine
31:34each of these three steps in turn first
31:37the philosophy of intersectionality this
31:39philosophy now dominates college
31:40campuses as well as a large segment
31:42unfortunately of today's Democratic
31:43party and suggests that straight white
31:45Americans are inherently the
31:47beneficiaries of white privilege and
31:48therefore cannot speak on certain
31:50policies since they have not experienc
31:52what it's like to be Black Or Hispanic
31:53or gay or transgender or a woman this
31:55philosophy ranks the value of a view not
31:58based on the logic or Merit of the view
32:00but on the level of victimization in
32:01American society experienced by the
32:03person espousing The View therefore if
32:05you're an LGBT black woman your view of
32:07American society is automatically more
32:09valuable than that of a straight white
32:10male the next step in the logic is
32:12obvious if a straight white male or
32:14anybody else who ranks lower on the
32:16victimhood scale says something contrary
32:18to the Viewpoint of the higher ranking
32:19intersectional intersectionality
32:21identity that person has engaged in a
32:23microaggression as NYU social
32:25psychologist Jonathan height writes
32:27micro aggressions are small actions or
32:29word choices that seem on their face to
32:31have no malicious intent but that are
32:32thought of as a kind of violence
32:34nonetheless you don't have to actively
32:36say anything insulting to micro agress
32:38somebody merely needs to take offense if
32:40for example you say that Society ought
32:42to be colorblind you're micro aggressing
32:44certain identity groups who have been
32:45victimized by a non-color blind Society
32:47note microaggressions as the name
32:50suggests are not merely insults they are
32:51aggressions they're the equivalent to
32:53physical violence just two weeks ago
32:55psychologist Lisa Felman Barrett of
32:57Northeastern University published an
32:58essay in the New York Times suggesting
33:00that words should be seen as physical
33:02violence because they can cause stress
33:03and stress causes physical harm thus
33:05Feldman suggested it is reasonable
33:07scientifically speaking to ban or
33:09restrict speech you do not like at your
33:10school this is both innan and dangerous
33:13that's because it leads to the final
33:15logical step words you don't like
33:16deserve to be fought physically when I
33:18spoke at California State University La
33:20one Professor threatened students who
33:22sponsored Me by offering to fight them
33:23he then posted a slogan on the door of
33:25his office stating the best response to
33:27micro aggression is macroaggression as
33:29height writes this is why the idea that
33:31speech is violence is so dangerous it
33:33tells the members of a generation
33:35already beset by anxiety and depression
33:37that the world is a far more violent and
33:39threatening place than it really is it
33:41tells them that words ideas speakers can
33:43literally kill them even worse at a time
33:45of rapidly Rising political polarization
33:47in the United States it helps a small
33:49subset of that generation justify
33:51political violence indeed protesters all
33:54too often engage in physically violent
33:56disruption when they believe their ident
33:57identity group is under verbal attack by
33:59someone usually conservative but not
34:00always not only do some administrators
34:02look the other way at middleberry
34:04College Cal State LA Berkeley Evergreen
34:07actual crimes were committed and almost
34:08nobody has been arrested but they
34:10actively forbid events from moving
34:12forward creating a heckler's veto the
34:14notion that if you are physically
34:15violent enough you can get
34:16administrators to cow toow to you to Bow
34:18Before You by canceling an event you
34:20disagree with altogether all of this
34:22destroys Free Speech but just as
34:24importantly it turns students into snow
34:26snowflakes craving and pathetic looking
34:28for an excuse to be offended so they can
34:30earn points in the intersectionality
34:32Olympics and then use those points as a
34:34club with which to beat opponents a
34:35healthy Nation requires an emotionally
34:38and intellectually vigorous population
34:40ready to engage in open debate at all
34:42times shielding college students from
34:44opposing viewpoints makes them
34:45simultaneously weaker and more dangerous
34:48we must fight that process at every step
34:50and that begins by acknowledging that
34:52whatever we think about America and
34:53where we stand we must agree on this
34:55fundamental principle all of our views
34:57should be judged on their merits not on
34:59the color or sex or sexual orientation
35:01of the speaker and those views should
35:02never be banned on the grounds that they
35:04offend someone thanks so much Mr Shapiro
35:06would the the professors you cited in
35:08your testimony view your 4 minute and 48
35:11second opening statement as a
35:14microaggression I assume that some of
35:15them would I mean apparently college
35:17students do all the time since when I
35:19speak there I've been there been riots
35:21and such I think they definitely will
35:22which is kind of the sign of the times I
35:24guess Mr Cora you're recognized for 5
35:26minutes uh thank you it's an honor to be
35:28asked uh to speak in front of you all uh
35:31first just a quick piece of business do
35:32we get to keep these
35:35paths this is going to be
35:38huge and uh not that I'm going to but
35:42what do you reckon they'll get on
35:43eBay I'm not I'm saying I'm going to I'm
35:46just it's pure
35:48curiosity uh I um I I'm not as eloquent
35:52as Mr Shapiro I sort of speak in uh
35:55beats and um off the top of my head and
35:57I've written a few uh down for you all
35:59today uh first off I come from a very
36:02blue collar background I grew up in
36:04North Hollywood
36:06California uh my dad was a a school
36:09teacher and my mom received a welfare
36:12and food stamps and uh told me very
36:15importantly when I was young when I
36:17asked her if she would get a job she
36:18said and lose my welfare benefits no
36:21thank you that which uh taught me a very
36:23valuable lesson which was uh never to
36:26listen to my mom all right
36:29uh I ended up being a carpenter and then
36:31a boxing instructor and met Jimmy Kimmel
36:34when I taught him to box for a uh
36:36morning Zoo stunt and eventually made my
36:39way onto uh TV and radio uh in the early
36:43days of my career I toured the country
36:45with Dr Drew when we were on L line
36:48together syndicated radio program also
36:50on MTV and we must have played a hundred
36:54college campuses with a ner award word
36:57of negativity and no safe spaces and no
37:02stuffed animals being handed out Simply
37:04went there set our piece many
37:06controversial ideas were exchanged and
37:09that's just what they were exchanged and
37:12then we got our paychecks and went home
37:14and 15 years later I went out with uh
37:18Dennis Prager conservative talk show
37:20host and attempted to do a show at Cal
37:23State Northridge where my mother was a
37:27Act ual graduate from with a Cho studies
37:31degree believe it or not so she's
37:32rolling in D about
37:36now uh and uh they pulled the plug on it
37:39they gave us no good reason why we
37:42couldn't speak there and we actually had
37:44to get attorneys involved to go back and
37:46speak at a later date um we're talking a
37:51lot about the kids and I think they're
37:53just that kids we are the adults and I
37:57don't think we are doing the children I
38:00mean these are 18 and 19yearold kids
38:03that are at these college campuses they
38:05grew up dipped in purel playing soccer
38:08games where they never kept score and
38:10watching waah wa wubsy and we're asking
38:13them to be mature we need the adults to
38:16start being the adults um Studies have
38:20shown that if you take people and you
38:23put them in a zero gravity environment
38:25like astronauts they losey muscle mass
38:28they lose bone density we're taking
38:30these kids in the name of protection
38:32we're putting them in a zerog gravity
38:34environment and they're losing muscle
38:37mass and bone density they need to live
38:40in a world that has gravity when you you
38:43need to expose your children to germs
38:45and dirt in the environment to build up
38:48their immune system our plan is put them
38:52in a bubble keep them away from
38:54everything and somehow they'll come out
38:57strong stronger when they emerge from
38:58the bubble well that's not happening
39:01children are the future but we are the
39:06present and we're the adults and we need
39:09to act like it and I
39:12feel that um what's going on on these
39:16campuses is it we need Law and Order we
39:21need to bring back Law and Order but I
39:23think if we just had order we wouldn't
39:27need law so could we just bring back
39:31order and could the faculty and
39:34administration on these campuses act
39:38like faculty and
39:40administration and most importantly
39:44adults who are in charge of these kids
39:48who need some gravity in their life
39:51thank you well said well said thank you
39:54uh thank you Mr Cora Mr Zimmerman Dr
39:56Zimmerman excuse me you're now for your
39:57opening statement Mr chairman members of
40:00the committee thank you for inviting me
40:01to speak with you about the importance
40:03of freedom of speech on college campuses
40:06I begin by making two points that are
40:08intricately related to the issue first I
40:11believe it's important to recognize that
40:13racism in American society both overt
40:15racism as well as more subtle but no
40:18less important forms of institutional
40:19racism is very real and needs to be
40:22addressed second nothing that anyone
40:24might say today should undermine the
40:26critical role that colleges and
40:28universities play in American society
40:31while these institutions aren't perfect
40:33and while those of us in the academy
40:34need to work toward Improvement higher
40:36education has been and Remains the
40:39single best way for individuals to
40:41dramatically improve their socioeconomic
40:43status beyond that personal benefit
40:46there's ample evidence demonstrating
40:47that Society is richer when it's all po
40:50when it's well populated by an educated
40:53citizenry I've spent almost 40 years
40:55working at institutions as a faculty
40:57member and administrator promoting the
40:59value of a liberal arts education such
41:01an education should teach students how
41:03to think rather than what to think it
41:06should teach them how to differentiate
41:08facts from opinions and it should teach
41:09them how to articulate their thoughts
41:11cogently rather than repeating those of
41:14others as we've all seen there have been
41:16problems on American campuses some
41:18voices have not been welcomed While
41:20others have been violently excluded let
41:22me say this as clearly as I can this is
41:25wrong and it must stop but what we don't
41:28need is additional legislation we
41:30currently have all the tools we need to
41:32fix the problem if we have the courage
41:34to use them College administrators need
41:37the courage to do what is right to stand
41:39for principles rather than expediency
41:41and to risk alienating some in the name
41:43of those principles on campuses where
41:45such strong leadership exists conflict
41:48rarely escalates to crisis at the same
41:51time faculty members need to hold their
41:53colleagues accountable the problems
41:55we've seen on campuses are not not I'm
41:57confident supported by the vast number
42:00of Faculty members but most faculty have
42:03opted to remain silent to censor
42:05themselves and therefore they they've
42:07seeded control of their institutions to
42:09a small but vocal minority this silence
42:12is understandable speaking out distracts
42:14people from their important work of
42:15teaching and scholarship while often
42:17bringing them into conflict with their
42:19colleagues asking faculty to encourage
42:22civil discussion and to celebrate a
42:23range of voices and perspectives is
42:25asking a great deal of them more than we
42:27see in our political discourse but if
42:30diverse opinions are not celebrated on
42:32campuses we were supposed to be
42:33trafficking in ideas I doubt they'll
42:35find any welcoming environment when we
42:38shut out voices we shut out ideas and
42:41serious consequences ensue part of the
42:44problem on campuses I believe stems from
42:46a rise in the belief that all knowledge
42:48is soci is socially constructed and that
42:50there are no absolute truths or the
42:53concept of postmodernism as it as it is
42:55known in academic circles
42:57why is this idea made a comeback now one
43:00possibility is that the Relentless
43:02disparagement many of leveled UND
43:03disciplines in the humanities arts and
43:05social sciences has led to a backlash it
43:08shouldn't be surprising that when
43:09practitioners see their fields portrayed
43:11as useless by those who promote only
43:14STEM Science technology engineering and
43:16Mathematics they push back and the
43:18resistance often manifests itself as
43:20antipathy towards science when we
43:23marginalize certain voices we all lose
43:26we need to recognize ize that
43:27disciplines each bring something
43:28important to our understanding of the
43:30world privileging some Fields over
43:32others yields a fragmented and
43:34incomplete picture I say this as a
43:37scientist as important as science is it
43:39certainly isn't all there is much of the
43:42tension on campuses today comes from a
43:44similar historical silencing of certain
43:46voices voices of the marginalized voices
43:49of people of color the disabled those
43:51with non-traditional sexual orientations
43:54the poor and many others as these
43:56individual ual rightfully try to insert
43:58their voices into conversations tensions
44:01arise but these voices deserve to be a
44:03part of the conversation the comparison
44:06between racism sexism homophobia and
44:09other equally terribly discriminatory
44:11behaviors and a lack of appreciation for
44:14certain academic disciplines should be
44:15seen only as a metaphor in the former
44:18case people's lives and their
44:20experiences are discounted without those
44:22voices we all suffer obviously not
44:25equally but we all suffer the goal has
44:28to be to find ways to celebrate ideas a
44:31wide array of ideas and the people who
44:33hold them but such a celebration
44:35requires not only that more voices be at
44:37the table but that all of us listen to
44:39those voices looking Beyond oneself
44:42listening to what others have to say
44:45understanding a perspective other than
44:46your own even if you don't agree with
44:48that perspective after all is what a
44:50liberal arts education is all about
44:53thank you thanks the gentleman Mr
44:55Lawrence
44:57thank you Mr chairman ranking members
44:59and distinguished members of the
45:00committee I am the 10th secretary and
45:03the CEO of the five Beta Kappa society
45:05and I say that I am delighted to hear Dr
45:07Zimmerman's celebration of the liberal
45:08arts and sciences F bet Capa was founded
45:11like our nation in
45:121776 and dedicated to the notion of free
45:15expression free inquiry and that the
45:16liberal arts and sciences would bring us
45:18to a better place indeed it has in this
45:20country I am honored today to appear on
45:23behalf of the Anti-Defamation League of
45:24which I'm a national commissioner and
45:26former chair of the national legal
45:28Affairs committee the challenge of free
45:30expression on our campuses has never
45:32seemed greater and I am grateful for the
45:34opportunity to address it today before
45:36this committee I know for my years as a
45:38law school dean and as a university
45:40president that these challenges come in
45:42all directions and all contexts they
45:45come from the left and they come from
45:46the right they just put Mr R just pull
45:50the mic a little a little closer pull
45:51your mic a little closer to you there
45:53yeah we're talking did you miss any of
45:54the good stuff Mr chairman got it got it
45:56all got it all keep going brother want
45:59to make sure that my board heard
46:00everything Mr
46:02chairman the challenges of free speech
46:04come from the left and they come from
46:05the right they involve students they
46:07involve faculty and they involve those
46:09outside the campus who affect the
46:11community as invited speakers and
46:13sometimes as Uninvited agitators given
46:17our C current polarization in our
46:19society it is perhaps no surprise that
46:21this issue presents itself with such
46:23urgency on our campuses today public
46:26campuses and priv priv at small liberal
46:27art schools and large research
46:29Universities at this moment it is
46:31especially important to clarify first
46:33principles pertaining to our democracy's
46:35core values of free expression as they
46:37manifest themselves on our campus and I
46:40would articulate two such principles
46:42first and I think there is Broad
46:43agreement in this panel today on this
46:46robust free expression and free inquiry
46:48are Central for the mission of our
46:49colleges and universities the limits of
46:52such expression are way out on the
46:54margins of expressive activity and
46:57involve behavior that threatens or
46:58instills fear in a victim or victims
47:01hate speech is protected hate crimes are
47:05not the second principle is that
47:07constitutionally protected hate speech
47:10still causes harm to members of our
47:13community there is a moral imperative
47:16therefore for campus leaders vigorously
47:18to criticize hate speech not to suppress
47:20it not to prohibit it but to but to
47:24identify it for what it is and to
47:26criticize
47:27these two principles lead me to a third
47:30conclusion that efforts to legislate
47:32brightline solutions to subtle and
47:35complex situations are misguided and
47:37they are doomed to fail campus
47:40administrators must be given the
47:41discretion to handle cases of hate
47:43speech and to judge when cases have
47:45crossed the line into hate crimes if we
47:48are to do our job as congresswoman fox
47:50said to teach our students how to think
47:52that must be left in the hands of those
47:55on campus who are best equipped to make
47:57those decisions let me elaborate briefly
48:00on the two principles free expression is
48:02a core value of our system of government
48:05and our society and it is especially
48:06true on our campuses most if not all of
48:09our campuses share a common mission to
48:12discover and create knowledge and to
48:13transmit that knowledge through our
48:15teaching and our
48:17scholarship for this Mission free
48:19expression and free inquiry are
48:23essential I therefore start from the
48:24presumption that speech on campus and
48:26writing on campus are protected but this
48:28is not a presumption without a limit
48:31where should the limit for expression be
48:33where do protected hateful speech cross
48:36over into being behavior that a
48:38university May prohibit and sanction as
48:41is so often the case in the law for
48:43example in basic principles of criminal
48:44law we do best to focus on the actor's
48:47intent the division between that which
48:49we may protect and that which may
48:51prohibit should be based on the intent
48:52of the actor is the intent to
48:54communicate however hateful the idea
48:57or is the intent to intimidate and
48:59threaten a particular victim a recent
49:01example that helps make this point
49:03referred to by ranking member dens and
49:07that refers to the statement of Miss
49:10Taylor dumpson seated behind me in the
49:12room today makes the point as the
49:15ranking member said after her election
49:17as the first black woman to hold the
49:18position of president of the student
49:20government in American University she
49:22was the victim of targeted hate
49:23motivated actions bananas hung with noes
49:26with the letters of an African-American
49:29sorority this reaches beyond the
49:31boundaries of free expression to a hate
49:33crime and has no place on an American
49:36campus to be sure not all hateful speech
49:39is simly threatening and prescribable
49:41much is protected what is the proper
49:44response when hateful speech that is
49:47protected occurs on our
49:49campuses here I believe as professor
49:52straon said at the very beginning we do
49:54well to look to Justice Lewis brandis's
49:57famous dictum in the case of Whitney
49:59against California where he said the
50:01answer to hateful or offensive speech is
50:03not enforced silence is more speech and
50:07in the face of hate speech on campuses
50:08the call for more speech is not merely
50:10an option it is a moral obligation on
50:13behalf of our campus leaders on all
50:16sides we observe with alarm the
50:18disturbing increase in the number of
50:20cases of white supremacist activity on
50:22our campuses as has been well and
50:24disturbingly documented by the anti-de
50:27league but even then the answer will
50:29generally not be the enforced Silence of
50:32which Justice brandise warned the answer
50:34is to assert the highest values of our
50:36academic communities doing so precisely
50:39in the context of how we debate and how
50:41we disagree is at the heart of the
50:43Enterprise of a college or a University
50:46thank you Mr chairman thank you all for
50:47your eloquent testimony um um we
50:49appreciate that and and frankly think
50:50Congress broke some new ground today
50:52first first reference ever to Wawa wubsy
50:54in a in a congressional hearing uh but
50:56we will will start with the chairman of
50:58the education Workforce committee the
50:59general lady from North
51:00Carolina thank you again Mr chairman and
51:03I want to thank our Witnesses again for
51:05being here as we all agree free speech
51:08is fundamental to a free Society it's
51:10astonishing to me that so many young
51:12adults today are willing to throw those
51:15constitutionally protected rights out
51:17the window just because they're on a
51:19college campus and may disagree with the
51:22content of what is being said however
51:24it's not surprising that so many
51:26colleges are struggling with how to
51:28handle Free Speech rights on campus Mr
51:31Zimmerman you note in your written
51:34testimony it's important for colleges
51:35and universities to continue to be a
51:37place where free exchange ideas even
51:40though some may disagree is allowed and
51:42even encouraged I strongly agree can you
51:45discuss some of the challenges public
51:47colleges and University administrators
51:49face when trying to balance their
51:52constitutional responsibility to protect
51:54free speech with insurance ing the
51:56safety of the Campus Community
51:58particularly when opposition to that
52:00speech leads to threats of potential
52:03violence I can certainly try it's not an
52:06easy there's no simple answer to that
52:08the the most important thing I think
52:11goes back to something uh Nadine straon
52:14said and has written about eloquently
52:18and that is in American society and on
52:20campuses today we don't have a good
52:22enough understanding of what the First
52:25Amendment actually means we need to
52:27educate each other within the academy
52:30and Beyond The Academy about the
52:31importance of of freedom of speech so
52:34often on college campuses there there
52:35are two kinds of of issues there are the
52:37internal issues that administrators are
52:40more easily able to deal with if they
52:42have the courage to do so and then there
52:43are the external issues when the uh
52:46attacks on freedom of speech come from
52:48external agitators and that's much more
52:50difficult because administrators don't
52:52control those individuals um
52:54administrators have to have the courage
52:56to stand up and as Mr Lawrence has said
53:00to speak out eloquently in favor of uh
53:04ideas that they are opposed to and make
53:06it clear and speak out in favor of of
53:08the opportunity for those ideas to be
53:10expressed while making it clear that
53:12those ideas should not be expressed um
53:15and and to call the people who are
53:17saying those hateful words into question
53:20um not their right to say them but their
53:23obligation not to say them if they want
53:24to live in a civil society so what
53:26administrators need to do is is change
53:28the nature of the discourse to ask for
53:31much more civil discourse and that
53:33doesn't mean closing down ideas it means
53:35respecting each other and and the
53:36diversity of opinions that each of us
53:38should
53:39have thank you very much Mr ston um in
53:43your testimony you discussed several
53:46instances where speech may be restricted
53:48because of specific objectively Dem
53:52demonstrable serious harm that it
53:54directly causes can you EXP span on
53:57those instances and discuss how colleges
53:59and universities can appropriately draw
54:02the line and again I appreciate all of
54:05you all coming
54:09today too eager to talk as one educator
54:12to another I'm especially here to answer
54:14that that fine question um the basic the
54:18most important examples that uh would
54:21apply on campuses include what the law
54:25calls a gy genuine threat or a true
54:29threat and targeted harassment now we
54:33have to be very careful because we tend
54:35to use the word threat or harassment
54:38very Loosely in everyday conversation
54:41and I am very concerned about students
54:44and even faculty members saying I feel
54:46assaulted by that speech or even I feel
54:49you know that speech is committing
54:51violence against me no no no the test is
54:54appropriately narrow uh the element of
54:56intent as Mr Lawrence said is very
54:58important when the speaker means to
55:02instill a reasonable fear not a fear
55:06that someone subjectively feels but a
55:09reasonable person in the position of the
55:13student who is targeted would reasonably
55:15feel fear of violence or harm that is a
55:19true threat and it doesn't the speaker
55:21need not intend to actually carry out
55:24the threatened harm but to instill the
55:26fear which itself is intruding Into The
55:29Liberty so and it's a very fact specific
55:33determination which is why I agree with
55:35Mr Chris Nam morti that we must not um
55:41make this into a punitive matter because
55:43it is a matter that involves discretion
55:45and judgment you would look at all the
55:46facts and circumstances and certainly
55:49one of them as Miss Deming said is the
55:52history uh that is associated with the
55:54expression the new certainly would
55:57convey a reasonable fear of of racist
56:01violence thank you Mr chairman I yield
56:03back uh the ranking members recognize Mr
56:05chrisan
56:06morthy Miss ston uh you're you're free
56:10to exercise your free speech rights to
56:11mispronounce my name that's perfectly
56:14okay the other day I I introduced myself
56:16I said hi my name is rajer Krishna Mory
56:17and someone said Roger Christian Murphy
56:20very nice to meet you so I'm used to it
56:23um you know I think that the three
56:25principles that I'm here look I think
56:26there's there's room for us to come to
56:29agreement on a few principles that I'm
56:31hearing um echoed in your excellent
56:33testimonies across the board first I I
56:36personally believe that Mr Lawrence is
56:38Dr Lawrence is absolutely right that
56:40college administrators should have
56:42maximum discretion to um you know
56:45essentially enforce these Free Speech
56:48rights both for those who are peacefully
56:50protesting and those who would show up
56:52and uh as Mr Shapiro said you know
56:55practice their viewpoints or espouse
56:58their viewpoints the second principle is
57:02um kind of goes along lines of what
57:04you're saying Miss ston which is you
57:06have to have some principle that's
57:08equally applied to both sides and that
57:10is is it the reasonable person test uh
57:13would a reasonable person uh feel uh
57:16they are about to be attacked or would
57:19they um uh a reasonable person uh uh
57:24perceive an intent to attack
57:26Etc um and then the third principle I
57:29think is um we don't want anything to to
57:32border on violence um any kind of
57:35incitement to violence um that is that
57:38is why when Miss demings brought up the
57:41the case of uh Taylor um who's with us
57:44in the audience I'm sorry I I forgot
57:46your last name Miss Taylor dumpson hson
57:50uh thank you for for coming um I think
57:52that that particular episode to me um I
57:56think as a reasonable person um
58:00hopefully most people would agree that
58:02is crossing a line um into a place where
58:06you know there might be violence on its
58:08way and that's very I'm very sorry that
58:10even happened to you um at the same time
58:13I'm disturbed when I see videos of
58:14people getting shouted down and shut
58:16down and so my question to the
58:18administrators the people who are on in
58:20the shoes trying to uh of of the college
58:23presidents and administrators who trying
58:25to enforce these principles
58:27Dr Lawrence and Dr Zimmerman I mean how
58:29do you a prevent that kind of shouting
58:32down and and and and just you know shut
58:35down of speech which we saw and on the
58:38other hand prevent what Miss demings
58:40congresswoman demings talked about which
58:41is that hate that hate crime in my view
58:46um how I mean what's the what are the
58:48challenges there and from a public
58:50policy standpoint like is there anything
58:52that you need in terms of tools to to
58:55help in that
58:56particular area well let me start with
58:59the the last question is there anything
59:01else that that we need besides the
59:03Goodwill of the House of Representatives
59:05uh we certainly do not need more
59:06legislation in this area um I think the
59:10the question of how do you deal with the
59:12the conflict between on the one hand
59:14protecting students from hate crimes on
59:15the other hand exposing students to
59:17Troublesome ideas even offensive ideas
59:20and teaching them how to respond to it
59:22that that is the challenge that we meet
59:24uh but you start I think by recognizing
59:26as a university administrator that it is
59:29those are not the only two options
59:30either we protect speech and embrace it
59:33or we prohibit speech there's this whole
59:35middle category that says speech is
59:37protected it is encouraged and
59:40University administrators also have
59:42First Amendment rights and also get to
59:44speak so in many cases the answer is not
59:47to run to the extreme of shutting down
59:49an event if there is a even even a white
59:53supremacist on campus if they are
59:56invited by a campus group or in a state
59:58university if they are entitled to be
59:59there by the State University rules then
1:00:01you don't shut it down but you do
1:00:03counter it with with comments of your
1:00:05own and the Administration has to say we
1:00:07have values in this University and we
1:00:09represent all of our students of all
1:00:10backgrounds and this is what we stand
1:00:12for and these are the high values of
1:00:14this University I know outside the
1:00:16context of the University this sounds
1:00:18like thin stuff within the university on
1:00:21the campus for those of us who spent our
1:00:22lives there this is not thin stuff this
1:00:24is the real stuff this is where students
1:00:26and faculty are engaged in the life of
1:00:28the school on a daily basis so this is
1:00:30where Justice brandise really did have
1:00:32have it right the answer is not enforced
1:00:34silence but it is more speech and more
1:00:37speech is not just an option it's a
1:00:38moral obligation Dr Zimmerman can I just
1:00:41add on to that like what has something
1:00:43changed in the last 10 15 years whereby
1:00:47the incidents that congresswoman demings
1:00:49talked about have been on the Rise um
1:00:53especially as of late against many uh
1:00:55different minority groups and and also
1:00:58what Mr Shapiro is talking about as well
1:01:00I mean has something changed that we
1:01:03need to be aware of what a great
1:01:05question let let me back up for one
1:01:07second and and uh agree with Dr Lawrence
1:01:10and say one other thing and that is you
1:01:12can't wait until one of these events
1:01:14happens you have to change the culture
1:01:15from the beginning you have to the first
1:01:17day students come to Campus before they
1:01:19come to campus they have to know they're
1:01:20coming to a place where they're going to
1:01:22be trafficking in ideas and some of
1:01:24those ideas as so many of you have said
1:01:26might be controversial and might make
1:01:27them uncomfortable but that's what makes
1:01:29them educated um I guess that the Deep
1:01:33the real answer that I see to to your
1:01:35wonderful question is are we a less um
1:01:38Civil Society in general than we used to
1:01:40be are We Are we more at odds with one
1:01:42another do we have a deeper
1:01:45misunderstanding and more distrust when
1:01:47we talk with people who disagree with us
1:01:49are are college campuses the epicenter
1:01:52of this or are they a reflection of
1:01:53what's going on in society and you know
1:01:56I we're sitting here in in house
1:01:58Chambers um or a conference room the
1:02:01house doesn't interact with the members
1:02:03don't interact with each other at least
1:02:05publicly very well often we on college
1:02:09campuses students faculty model the
1:02:11behavior we see and it's not that you
1:02:13are the problem but you are part of
1:02:15American society we have all come to
1:02:17this I think we need collectively to
1:02:20come to a better understanding of how to
1:02:21disagree civil and respectfully and
1:02:25unless we understand what our opponents
1:02:27are saying we're never going to make
1:02:29cogent arguments against them we we need
1:02:31to understand our position and we need
1:02:33to understand their position if we're
1:02:35going to make rational
1:02:37decisions thank you uh Mr uh Mr Cora uh
1:02:41we we've heard from the other side we've
1:02:43heard from a couple of our Witnesses
1:02:44about intent to cause violence we've
1:02:46heard the term agitator used we've heard
1:02:48that it's appropriate to criticize hate
1:02:50speech when you're on campus do you
1:02:51engage in hate
1:02:53speech well that that's it's all in the
1:02:57ear of the beholder that's the problem
1:02:59and everyone's ears are getting super
1:03:01sensitive these days I express ideas and
1:03:05ideas I believe in in often times jokes
1:03:08like uh Mr K did they charge you ex
1:03:11extra for the name plate all the numbers
1:03:14you know like I have a wrap around when
1:03:16you bring a van to the car wash they
1:03:18charge you more just figure with 128
1:03:21letters there uh I uh you know I I I try
1:03:26to be a little more philosophical about
1:03:28all this stuff and um I I was at a Home
1:03:32Depot in Glendale California two days
1:03:35ago standing in the tool department and
1:03:38a Taylor Swift song came on and I was
1:03:41initially
1:03:42agitated um I just didn't feel like it
1:03:46was good thematically for me to be
1:03:48looking at Roto hammers with Taylor
1:03:50Swift talking about how hot she was uh
1:03:53pumping uh above my head like a Halo
1:03:56but all I did was keep shopping keep
1:03:59walking I realized some people like this
1:04:02music some people don't like this music
1:04:04it's the prerogative of whoever manages
1:04:06the Home Depot to play Taylor Swift at
1:04:09that time I didn't complain I didn't
1:04:12throw something at the speaker and I
1:04:14didn't start a fire I just got my tools
1:04:18paid and left and I just thought if more
1:04:21people could do that with ideas they
1:04:24disagree with or people they disagree
1:04:26with or music they disagree with it's
1:04:29not an endorsement of Taylor Swift it's
1:04:32I have a life to lead I need a Roto
1:04:34Hammer and I don't personally hold the
1:04:38manager of this Home Depot nothing
1:04:40against him if he wants to play he or
1:04:42she wants to play Taylor Swift and I
1:04:45think if people could just sort of have
1:04:48that in their mind and I'm not saying
1:04:50don't have an opinion and I'm not saying
1:04:53don't voice your opinion but when other
1:04:55people are voicing their opinion or
1:04:57singing their song Sometimes It's time
1:04:59just to grab your Roto Hammer and head
1:05:01for the parking lot and and your
1:05:02appearances on campuses has your
1:05:04intentions ever been to cause violence
1:05:06on college campuses oh sorry sorry for
1:05:09skirting the question no no no a second
1:05:12question it's a second question you did
1:05:13find on the first literally talking
1:05:15about Taylor Swift and skirting mini
1:05:17skirting the questions of of course not
1:05:20uh never uh no and and I I I don't know
1:05:25who who who does have those ideas um I
1:05:28personally want to exchange ideas I
1:05:31basically want to just take my ideas and
1:05:33put it into your head but I don't want
1:05:35to put my fist or foot in your head Mr
1:05:37Lawrence do you think that uh when Mr
1:05:40Shapiro is on campus that he has any
1:05:42intentions to cause violence or promote
1:05:44violence do you think he's an agitator
1:05:45or do you think he engages in hate
1:05:47speech no I I have no no reason to
1:05:50believe he's there to create violence
1:05:51and in fact uh I would say that the wise
1:05:53University president does not get in the
1:05:55business on a daily basis of calling
1:05:57First Amendment balls and Strikes uh
1:05:59generally speaking you want to let the
1:06:00game play on you want ideas to be
1:06:02exchanged Mr Cora wants to come to
1:06:03campus and uh do his seething critique
1:06:06of Taylor Swift I would say have at it
1:06:08um but those aren't the hard cases that
1:06:10we're talking about where you do weigh
1:06:12in are precisely cases what do you mean
1:06:15they're not the hard cases Mr Shapiro
1:06:17has been shouted down Uninvited uh
1:06:19violence at at the thing so what do you
1:06:21mean it's not the hard case if you if
1:06:23you if you think his his speech is
1:06:25appropriate he's engaging in the kind of
1:06:26ideas robust debate that we W on college
1:06:28campuses then then U then why why is the
1:06:31reaction the way it is then well there
1:06:33there shouldn't be that reaction and
1:06:34what I mean by not being a hard case is
1:06:36that it should not be a hard case for a
1:06:38University Administration to protect his
1:06:39right to speak I think there's no
1:06:41there's no problem with that it seems to
1:06:42be but but what I mean by the hard cases
1:06:44is that when you do see uh a dramatic
1:06:47increase in white supremacist incidents
1:06:49on campuses University administrators
1:06:51have to pay attention and particularly
1:06:53when there are people who come from the
1:06:54outside and the univ president has a
1:06:56hard time keeping control of her or his
1:06:58campus that but that's a different
1:06:59situation from Mr
1:07:01Cora you an agitator not as far as not
1:07:05as far as I'm aware so this I think that
1:07:09some of what's been said does Min skirt
1:07:12the de Bay um you know Mr chrishna
1:07:14morthy I got it right when when you're
1:07:16talking about the Wisconsin law I
1:07:17believe that that law was brought up in
1:07:19direct uh in in direct counter to what
1:07:22happened uh and it was people talked
1:07:24about on the legisl on the floor of the
1:07:25legislature and recounter what happened
1:07:27when I spoke at University of Wisconsin
1:07:28in Madison where he had a bunch of
1:07:30protesters who stood in front of the spe
1:07:31in front of the stage and obstructed the
1:07:33stage and then refused to leave and when
1:07:36I asked the police would they remove the
1:07:38protesters at a certain they've been
1:07:39going for 15 minutes I by the way
1:07:41personally two things just to preface I
1:07:43have no problem whatsoever with people
1:07:44protesting my speeches I do have a
1:07:46problem with people who won't actually
1:07:47let me speak uh and number two as far as
1:07:49all the talk about white supremacy uh I
1:07:52can speak from experience Mr Lawrence
1:07:54your organization named me the number
1:07:55one target of anti-Semitism online last
1:07:58year so I have a I I have a trophy at my
1:08:00house say number one hated Jew in
1:08:01America so I'm I'm I'm totally familiar
1:08:04with with the the level of uh vitriol
1:08:06that's that's become common in our
1:08:07politics but one of the things that's a
1:08:09problem and and I think we have to be
1:08:11careful about is when we say leave it to
1:08:13the administrators and then the
1:08:14administrators do what they did at w
1:08:15which is they the police I said to the
1:08:17police will you remove these protesters
1:08:19and the police said we've been told by
1:08:21the administration that if we remove the
1:08:22protesters we are to shut down the event
1:08:24entirely so we can't remove the protest
1:08:26we literally had to wait until they just
1:08:27got tired and walked out basically uh
1:08:30when when that's the response of the
1:08:31administration shouldn't there be some
1:08:33sort of repercussion for that because
1:08:35what I'm seeing is a heckler's veto
1:08:37that's taking place on campus what I'm
1:08:38seeing is people who are not engaging in
1:08:40free speech designed to enrich the
1:08:42debate but in order to shut down the
1:08:44debate and there have to be some sort of
1:08:47ramifications for people who are
1:08:49actually committing trespass I mean
1:08:52these are these are this this is not a
1:08:53question of everyone is trying to to
1:08:56focus in on this on this term hate crime
1:08:58and hate speech the but the the
1:09:01important part of those phrases is not
1:09:02the first word it's speech versus crime
1:09:05so if there's a crime that's being
1:09:06committed we're all in agreement if
1:09:07somebody commits a crime and they're
1:09:08they're and they're speaking of an
1:09:10imminent threat to somebody of course
1:09:11that's a crime but that has very little
1:09:13to do with the hate and a lot more to do
1:09:14with the crime as to whether that's
1:09:15prosecuted because hate speech is not
1:09:16prosecutable nor should it be policed by
1:09:18the campus so the fact is that that what
1:09:21what we are seeing uh is is a conflation
1:09:23between speech and active attempts to
1:09:26obstruct in order to promote the
1:09:29obstruction by some administrators on a
1:09:30few college campuses can I add to
1:09:33that I think the the bigger problem and
1:09:37what's sort of Insidious here is I
1:09:39believe that the
1:09:41administration does not agree with Ben
1:09:44Shapiro and Ben Shapiro's thoughts and
1:09:47what Ben Shapiro is going to say so
1:09:49becomes a tcid agreement they disagree
1:09:52they're basically Steeler fans and he's
1:09:55a Baltimore Ravens fan and he's going to
1:09:58come up and make a speech and all the
1:10:00Steeler fans say well he should be
1:10:02allowed to but we're not a fan and so
1:10:05quietly they go along with it and I
1:10:08think that's a problem I think that's a
1:10:10big problem that everyone agrees on Free
1:10:13Speech everyone agrees that the college
1:10:14campus should be a petri dish of free
1:10:19speech or Melting Pot or whatever it is
1:10:22a sea sponge of Free Speech but when the
1:10:25administration doesn't agree with what
1:10:27Ben chapero has to say they don't defend
1:10:31his right to say it as vigorously as
1:10:33they would if someone came on who they
1:10:35agreed with it's quiet no one ever talks
1:10:38about it but I believe that's what's
1:10:39going on they they tell him like they
1:10:41did last week that oh there's there's no
1:10:43venue that will accommodate him in
1:10:44September wow right you can't find a
1:10:47place on campus to hold to have him come
1:10:49and and address thisan I think if I may
1:10:51for a second I think that that's that's
1:10:52one of the dangers here is that what
1:10:54we're seeing in many cases is use of
1:10:57what would normally be time place and
1:10:58manner restrictions in order to restrict
1:11:00the actual type of speech as as a
1:11:01pretext if I might say responding to
1:11:04points that Mr Krishna morte made and
1:11:06also chairman Jordan um that this really
1:11:11is not such a new phenomenon uh back in
1:11:14the 60s and 70s there was actually epic
1:11:18violence on campuses massive shutdowns
1:11:22um outside agitators students alike fac
1:11:25members and administrators imprisoned uh
1:11:28within their their offices and that gave
1:11:31rise to that fabulous report that
1:11:34chairman Jordan referred to the Woodward
1:11:36report which I think is responsive to a
1:11:39number of questions that have been
1:11:40raised what should campus administrators
1:11:43do because it really in concrete terms
1:11:46spells out the distinctions between
1:11:49speech that should be protected
1:11:51including vehement protest and where it
1:11:54crosses the line into coercion and
1:11:56intimidation where it is important for
1:11:59the University to enforce its own rules
1:12:02but that's as distinct from government
1:12:04getting into the freight the general
1:12:06lady from Florida is recognized and and
1:12:08we'll be uh um relax we'll relax the
1:12:11time restraints a little
1:12:12bit thank you so much uh Mr chairman and
1:12:16again thank you to all of our Witnesses
1:12:18for being here today and engaging in
1:12:20this very important uh discussion um Mr
1:12:24Lawrence um in your written testimony
1:12:27you talk about uh white supremists or
1:12:30engaged in unprecedented Outreach on
1:12:33American colleges um and campuses um
1:12:38what do you believe accounts for the
1:12:41rise and Outreach and what do you
1:12:44believe white supremist groups are
1:12:46hoping to achieve by um the increase in
1:12:50targeting colleges and
1:12:52universities I think what they are
1:12:54hoping to accomplish is to influence the
1:12:56next generation of leaders in society
1:12:58and so they come to campus with with
1:12:59that in mind I think they also are
1:13:01hoping to get a high level of visibility
1:13:03which they do uh campuses get a high
1:13:06level of attention in the media in the
1:13:08Press uh in government um and mostly for
1:13:11good reasons but I think that raises
1:13:12that as well and I think to a certain
1:13:14extent we are living in a highly
1:13:17hyperpolarized environment right now uh
1:13:20and there is a a violence to the
1:13:22vocabulary that comes very quickly and
1:13:24there is a racialized version to much of
1:13:26this vocabulary that comes very quickly
1:13:28but let me hasten to add that even when
1:13:30those groups come to campus I still
1:13:32think the answer is is more speech uh
1:13:35not to not to restrict but I do think
1:13:37this this is where the job of the
1:13:39administrator becomes very complicated
1:13:41but terribly important uh to be a voice
1:13:44of clarity to say on this campus we
1:13:47believe that all are entitled to come
1:13:49here and have a satisfying uh learning
1:13:51experience to be challenged to be
1:13:53challenged intellectually to be troubled
1:13:55with ideas but not to be threatened uh
1:13:58and not to be stigmatized because of who
1:14:00they are or what they are you know as I
1:14:02indicated in my opening statement I have
1:14:04been directly involved in numerous uh
1:14:08providing security for numerous protests
1:14:11as persons who I agreed with and groups
1:14:14that I didn't exercise their first
1:14:15amendment rights so I take this
1:14:17conversation very very uh seriously you
1:14:20talked earlier about kind of the the
1:14:24complicated and sometimes difficult job
1:14:26of the college administrator who is
1:14:29trying to balance um protecting the
1:14:32right to free speech but also thinking
1:14:34about the welfare and safety and
1:14:36well-being of their students um uh which
1:14:40can be a difficult line could you or
1:14:43even uh Mr Dr Zimmerman I'd like to hear
1:14:46from both of you kind of talk more about
1:14:49even though we've said it's a tough it's
1:14:52difficult could you kind of talk more
1:14:53about the role of the the college
1:14:55administrator in balancing the right to
1:14:58free speech and the welfare of the
1:15:00students on campus let me start with
1:15:03something very important that Dr
1:15:04Zimmerman said these Pro uh discussions
1:15:07do do not best start once an event has
1:15:10already happened on campus uh it starts
1:15:12at first year uh orientation discussions
1:15:14it starts in dinners in the president's
1:15:16home it starts in discussions in the
1:15:18office talking about what do we stand
1:15:19for what does a civil learning climate
1:15:21mean what does it mean to challenge each
1:15:22other it comes with how we treat each
1:15:24other um I think he's also right that
1:15:26there are a precious few good role
1:15:29models for civil disagreement in our
1:15:32society right now so we have to create
1:15:34those on our University campuses uh when
1:15:36an event does happen I think there also
1:15:38are very significant Rules of Engagement
1:15:40that have to be enforced so for example
1:15:42if uh Mr Shiro wanted to come to my
1:15:44campus uh he obviously would be free to
1:15:46come and I would make sure that there
1:15:47were no pre protesters who kept him from
1:15:49coming uh but I would require and I'm
1:15:51sure he'd be happy with this requirement
1:15:53that he'd have to take questions and
1:15:54answers he could just give a speech and
1:15:55leave I have no reason to think he
1:15:56wouldn't agree with that in fact I
1:15:58actually at all at all my speeches I I
1:16:01say if you disagree with me you go to
1:16:02the front of the line for Q&A that's
1:16:03always how it works when I got pushed
1:16:05back particularly from some of my um
1:16:07trustees about certain speakers they
1:16:09disagreed with vehemently why are they
1:16:11on campus my response was always trust
1:16:14my kids I'm going to make sure that
1:16:16these speakers have to answer questions
1:16:19and they're going to stay until the
1:16:20questions are done trust my students to
1:16:22ask hard questions that's where the
1:16:24training had to think actually happen so
1:16:26you create those environments as well
1:16:28but look let's be let's be clear as well
1:16:30when the situation gets out of control
1:16:32usually because you've got people from
1:16:34the outside not only sometimes it's
1:16:36inside but usually when you got people
1:16:37from the outside then you've got the
1:16:39same questions on campuses that law
1:16:41enforcement such as your experience uh
1:16:43are more Adept dealing with and these
1:16:46will continue to be challenges for our
1:16:47universities in your written testimony
1:16:49you also talked about the uh just
1:16:52unbelievable number of incidents of
1:16:54racist related stickers flyers on
1:16:58campuses could you talk about a little
1:17:00bit about the impacts that you have seen
1:17:03on certain groups as it pertains to the
1:17:06those flyers and stickers look you've
1:17:08got to go all the way back to First
1:17:09principles universities are not punitive
1:17:12institutions they are educative
1:17:14institutions we exist for a purpose it
1:17:16is to educate our students when there is
1:17:19a a pervasive expression of racism on
1:17:22campus that disables the learning of
1:17:25certain students again that doesn't
1:17:27necessarily mean you would repress some
1:17:29of that expression but you have to
1:17:30respond to that not just because you
1:17:32think that's a nice thing to do you have
1:17:34a professional obligation as an educator
1:17:36to see to the learning ability of the
1:17:39students on your your campus so the
1:17:41incidents that you're referring to have
1:17:42a deeply negative impact on the ability
1:17:44of students to learn which at the end of
1:17:47the day is the mission of the
1:17:48institution okay thank you I'm out of
1:17:49time thank you so much Mr chairman I
1:17:51thank you chair notes the presence of uh
1:17:53Congressman he and Professor Rasin and
1:17:55without objection they will be welcome
1:17:58to participate fully in today's hearing
1:17:59and now recognize uh the chairman Mr
1:18:02Palmer thank you Mr chairman
1:18:06um I just want to bring up something
1:18:09from your written testimony that frankly
1:18:13um Mr Lawrence I find troubling you site
1:18:15a an instance uh at Central Michigan
1:18:18University where there was a Valentine's
1:18:20uh Day card that went out that was
1:18:22extremely offensive to Jews
1:18:25and uh you do point out that the Creator
1:18:28uh and and it was attributed to a
1:18:30republican student group and in your
1:18:32written testimony you point out that the
1:18:35creator of the Valentine turned out to
1:18:38not be a
1:18:39student but you never disengage uh you
1:18:43you you never uh mention in here that it
1:18:47was not the Republican group uh that uh
1:18:51uh an inquiry into this by centr from
1:18:54michan University found led by Katherine
1:18:58Lasher uh said that they determined the
1:19:01leaders of the student organization the
1:19:03college Republicans at CMU were unaware
1:19:05of the card and that their director said
1:19:08the members of the student organization
1:19:09were shocked and
1:19:11remorseful why didn't you make that
1:19:15clear uh Congressman I apologize if it
1:19:17was not clear in the written testimony
1:19:19as you see it I I did say in the
1:19:21testimony that it was determined not to
1:19:23be uh from a student group you didn't
1:19:25you didn't make clear that it wasn't the
1:19:28Republican Not only was not a student it
1:19:30wasn't the Republicans I guess something
1:19:32a little sensitive about that Mr
1:19:34chairman I'd like to enter this into the
1:19:35record if I may that objection um
1:19:38because I I realize that some speech
1:19:40does incite um inappropriate behavior
1:19:43even violence and I know that firsthand
1:19:46because I was one of the Republican
1:19:47baseball players that was on the field I
1:19:49was 20 steps from the guy when he
1:19:50started shooting and it was clear that
1:19:54he was incited by certain speech but I'd
1:19:57like to point out that that as traumatic
1:20:00as that experience was I have not heard
1:20:03a single demand from any one of those
1:20:05who were present who were injured or
1:20:08wounded for restriction of anyone's
1:20:11right to speak their views on any issue
1:20:14and I I I just think uh you know I was
1:20:17at the University of Alabama in the mid
1:20:201970s 1965 was the first time an
1:20:23African-American was entered was allowed
1:20:25to to enroll the university it was a
1:20:28dark time in our history there's no
1:20:29question about it um but in 1976 we
1:20:34elected the first African-American
1:20:36president of the student government
1:20:37Association the year before that the
1:20:39Executive Vice President Student
1:20:41Government Association and there were
1:20:43people who who disagreed and protested
1:20:45but we didn't have this inability to
1:20:49communicate that that we have right now
1:20:51on University campuses
1:20:55Mr chairman I I would agree that it is
1:20:58critically important that on campuses we
1:21:01not get in the business of of name
1:21:03calling and certainly not prohibiting
1:21:05others from from speaking and in fact
1:21:07one of the reasons that I think it is
1:21:08very important for universities not to
1:21:11rush to judgment and not to look at
1:21:13these as cases to punish but as cases to
1:21:15educate is that the goal at the end of
1:21:17the day uh is to teach students how to
1:21:19challenge each other intellectually but
1:21:22not physically and not with you have a
1:21:23responsibility though to make sure that
1:21:26both sides have the opportunity to
1:21:27engage this idea that denying students
1:21:30the opportunity to hear views or ideas
1:21:32that are contrary to what they believe
1:21:33these safe
1:21:35spaces
1:21:37um I think are dangerous uh you're not
1:21:41protecting students you're denying them
1:21:43the ability to engage in in debate to
1:21:47defend their views or oppose other views
1:21:49because when they leave College I
1:21:51promise you they're going to run into
1:21:53the views that are opposite to their
1:21:55own you you and I are in complete
1:21:58agreement on that it is the obligation
1:21:59of a university to expose students to
1:22:01views they disagree with you and I are
1:22:03in complete agreement on that point I
1:22:05want to ask um Professor
1:22:09strawson while I find the numerous
1:22:11instances of speakers being disinvited
1:22:13or shouted down problematic I I think
1:22:15it's the most Pro troubling aspect of
1:22:18the anti-free speech movement is the
1:22:20surprising amount of traction it has
1:22:22gained with the younger generation
1:22:25uh there was a Pew Research Center study
1:22:28showed that 40% of Millennials believe
1:22:30that the government should be able to
1:22:31prevent people from publicly making
1:22:33statements that are offensive to
1:22:36minority
1:22:38groups uh does your experience as a
1:22:41professor confirm that students are
1:22:42likely to support restrictions on
1:22:45speech uh I I I am not going to rely on
1:22:49anecdotes because uh I have to say by
1:22:51definition when I'm invited to speak on
1:22:54can
1:22:55I'm often perceived as a controversial
1:22:57speaker for defending freedom for
1:23:00everybody from A to Z uh how does it
1:23:04impact you in the classroom I'm not
1:23:05talking in the class no in the classroom
1:23:08uh you can't teach a law class without
1:23:12well without forcing students to do well
1:23:16to be able and here my students can
1:23:18quote this uh articulate and defend all
1:23:22plausible perspectives on every issue
1:23:25you're going to fail my class if you
1:23:27just adhere to the Civil libertarian
1:23:29line or any other line you have to be
1:23:31able to answer back and interestingly
1:23:34enough there has been some suggestion
1:23:36that these problems do not exist at law
1:23:39schools the new Dean of the Yale law
1:23:41school just wrote a very interesting
1:23:43essay in Time magazine in which he said
1:23:45isn't it striking that we don't have
1:23:46these problems at law school it may well
1:23:49be be because we so emphasize critical
1:23:52thinking and forcing students to
1:23:55Advocate against their own deeply held
1:23:58beliefs understanding first of all that
1:24:00may open their minds and change their
1:24:02perspectives that's not the worst thing
1:24:04to happen in life and secondly even if
1:24:06it doesn't it uh enhances their ability
1:24:10to effectively Advocate their own
1:24:12positions so that could be an
1:24:14educational model for undergraduates and
1:24:17for that matter high schools and Below
1:24:19as
1:24:20well I'm encouraged to know that you're
1:24:24promoting critical thinking skills uh
1:24:27one last thing um Mr chairman I I hear
1:24:29you tapping
1:24:30there I heard that Mr Shapiro proponents
1:24:34of Curel speech often argue that certain
1:24:37types of speech amount to violence
1:24:39noting that certain listeners are
1:24:40emotionally harmed when listening to
1:24:42ideas with which they disagree there was
1:24:44an article in the LA Times that made
1:24:46this argument going so far as to call on
1:24:48courts and legislators to allow the
1:24:50Restriction of hate speech as do all
1:24:53other economically ADV democracies in
1:24:55the world is there any limiting
1:24:58principle at play where forbidden speech
1:25:00is anything that a particular person or
1:25:02group of people find offensive no I I
1:25:04haven't seen any limiting principle at
1:25:05play at all on college campuses which is
1:25:07the problem you'll have people like
1:25:08Jason Riley from The Wall Street Journal
1:25:10treated it exactly the same way as an
1:25:12cter Milo yopos and their pulls apart in
1:25:14terms of how they express themselves and
1:25:15many of the views that they hold so this
1:25:17idea that there is some sort of bright
1:25:19Line This is why I hate even even the
1:25:21term hate speech is really difficult
1:25:23because it's it just suggests that if I
1:25:25don't like what you're saying or if I
1:25:26impute to you an intent that you may not
1:25:28have then now you're hateful and you
1:25:30should be banned it seems to me that it
1:25:33would a more a more effective use of of
1:25:36terminology would say in speech I find
1:25:39insulting or or speech I find offensive
1:25:41but the idea of hate speech itself there
1:25:43there are certain types of speech I
1:25:44think we can all agree are objectively
1:25:46hateful but I don't think that there is
1:25:48any limiting principle at play from a
1:25:49lot of Administrators because I think
1:25:51that they use that club of hate speech
1:25:53in order to cudgel people with whom they
1:25:54disagree they just say okay I don't like
1:25:56what you're saying now and that's hate
1:25:57speech and microaggression culture
1:26:00contributes to this I mean literally on
1:26:02campuses students will be told that if
1:26:03you say to another student where are you
1:26:05from that this is some sort of
1:26:06microaggression that this is this is a a
1:26:08minor minor form of hate speech if you
1:26:10say where are you from because you're
1:26:11implying they're not from here I mean of
1:26:12course you're not from here I mean I
1:26:13assume you weren't born on this spot but
1:26:15it doesn't matter you the the idea that
1:26:17you're going to broaden out terminology
1:26:19in order to prohibit groups that you
1:26:21don't like or ideas that you don't like
1:26:23I would much prefer that if we're going
1:26:24to be if we're going to move the ratchet
1:26:27in any One Direction let's move the
1:26:28ratchet in in favor of more speech and I
1:26:31agree of course with with uh Mr Lawrence
1:26:33that it's it's perfectly appropriate if
1:26:35an administrator wants to wants to say
1:26:37that I personally disagree the
1:26:38university doesn't agree with the views
1:26:40that are being espoused by a particular
1:26:41speaker that's perfectly appropriate but
1:26:43uh you know sometimes they sometimes
1:26:45there are great areas in terms of what
1:26:46the University is doing when Mr Lawrence
1:26:47was at Brand University aan her Ali was
1:26:49uninvited from the University because of
1:26:51blowback from from some of the students
1:26:53I mean is that a case of her free speech
1:26:55rights being violated it's a private
1:26:56university but if it were a public
1:26:58university would that be a case of her
1:27:00free speech rights being violated
1:27:01because administrators decided not to
1:27:02stand up for those because students were
1:27:04upset I mean these this is this is why I
1:27:07think that the the notion that there is
1:27:09some sort of grand intelligencia running
1:27:12the universities who are capable of
1:27:14discriminating between hate speech and
1:27:15normal speech and should be sitting a
1:27:17top a hill somewhere under a palm tree
1:27:19like a cotti dispensing Justice on a
1:27:21case-by casee basis I think it's
1:27:22nonsense and I don't think that they
1:27:23have any rational standards they apply
1:27:25I'll just conclude with this Mr chairman
1:27:27that I I think this hearing is um very
1:27:31important I think it's the main thing
1:27:34that that students ought to get and all
1:27:35of us ought to get is to deny ourselves
1:27:38access to other people's views is to
1:27:39deny ourselves furthering our own
1:27:42education this is how you learn and I I
1:27:45would like to compliment Mr uh Corola on
1:27:48his metaphors football and Hardware
1:27:50thank
1:27:52you I think the gentlemen when uh Mr
1:27:54shapir was given his example about
1:27:57asking the question and it being
1:27:58perceived as a microaggression asking
1:28:00the question where you're from I noticed
1:28:02the students uh in in the audience all
1:28:04nodding their heads and so in our
1:28:06subsequent hearings we're going to we're
1:28:07going to look to get some students here
1:28:09who can give us some firsthand knowledge
1:28:10of what it's like from their perspective
1:28:12on these particular campuses and with
1:28:14that I recognize the gentle lady from
1:28:15Illinois for her
1:28:18questioning thank you Mr chair I find
1:28:21this conversation very interesting I
1:28:23used to work on the college campus I was
1:28:25a director of minority student services
1:28:27uh for Bradley University and I'm now on
1:28:29the Board of Trustees of Bradley that's
1:28:31my alamada and something you said Mr
1:28:34Zimmerman we did start you know we had
1:28:37student orientation and as part of the
1:28:39orientation uh the students went through
1:28:42diversity training and diversity uh
1:28:45orientation as freshmen they had to go
1:28:47through um a class for half of the
1:28:51semester Mr Lawrence Anti-Defamation
1:28:53League came to the campus that's where I
1:28:55cut my teeth I'm A diversity trainer and
1:28:57we did a campus of difference and one
1:29:00thing I wanted to say also I know uh on
1:29:03the outside it may look like we don't
1:29:05get along but I just hosted um something
1:29:09I called breaking bread and there were
1:29:1075 of us Democrats and Republicans that
1:29:13ate together and uh not that um probably
1:29:17uh Mr Meadows the head of the freedom
1:29:19caucus and I probably never vote alike
1:29:22but we are very close you can ask him
1:29:25and Mr Palmer and I bring him popcorn
1:29:27from Illinois so we do get along better
1:29:31than people think maybe we need to show
1:29:32it a little bit more and I brought you
1:29:35Valentine chocolate that's brought me
1:29:37Valentine Chate but we I think we do get
1:29:40along better than people think we may
1:29:42not um agree on how to get to a goal but
1:29:46there are a lot of similar goals also
1:29:49but
1:29:50um Mr Palmer said and I deeply
1:29:53understand understand how he's sensitive
1:29:56because of what he experienced um but I
1:29:59also think about Taylor and the impact
1:30:02on her and even though I agree with free
1:30:04speech and all of that but uh we do need
1:30:07to think about the impact and the long
1:30:09lasting impact that it does have on
1:30:12people um and I don't want to speak for
1:30:15her but um like maybe her trust or you
1:30:19know when she meets someone new or how
1:30:21the campus is and those kind of things I
1:30:23think that we need really need to make
1:30:25sure that um we give the students
1:30:27support and I agree with being
1:30:29open-minded to different ideas and
1:30:30things like that but it does have an
1:30:33impact on people when I went to college
1:30:36a long long time ago it was so
1:30:38segregated I grew up in New York City I
1:30:41went to college Bradley University I
1:30:43just was not used to that and I still
1:30:46remember the impacts that it had on me
1:30:48and and people's attitudes and things
1:30:50like that but maybe that led me to be
1:30:52passionate about uh diversity and
1:30:54becoming a diversity trainer but what do
1:30:56you think about that the impact that it
1:30:59has on people even like Mr Palmer said
1:31:01um and he's full grown adult a
1:31:04congressman and and the impact what he
1:31:06went through has on him but how can we
1:31:08support
1:31:11students well I think the more we talk
1:31:13with one another and the more we listen
1:31:16to one another the easier it is to
1:31:20understand one another when we when we
1:31:21look at others as other we can demonize
1:31:24them we can ignore their ideas and know
1:31:27that their ideas are wrong when we
1:31:29understand who these people are and what
1:31:30they believe it's so much easier to to
1:31:33to share um what we have in common
1:31:36instead of looking for our differences
1:31:38so the fact that that you had 75 members
1:31:41together is is absolutely wonderful but
1:31:44I think you're right that needs to be
1:31:46demonstrated more openly because that's
1:31:47that's not the image that's seen and we
1:31:52as members of The Academy as I've said
1:31:53we as Citizens we as human beings look
1:31:56for role models and we we model what we
1:31:58see whether we mean to or not and when
1:32:01we see from cable news segregation of
1:32:04ideas not not segregation in terms of
1:32:06race but seg well some of that as well
1:32:08but segregation in terms of ideas when
1:32:11we see that so obvious we we internalize
1:32:13that and say that must be the way
1:32:15American society should work we need to
1:32:17work together we need to understand each
1:32:19other and we need to be able to disagree
1:32:21there's nothing wrong with disagreeing
1:32:23especially with the ideas but not with
1:32:25the people but I also think in
1:32:27disagreeing there has to be a certain
1:32:28level of respect I absolutely that's the
1:32:31other part too and and um and again I go
1:32:34back to what uh Taylor went through uh
1:32:37that's beyond the pale and I I do think
1:32:40things should be done about that could I
1:32:42say something um first of all
1:32:44Congressman Kelly I've spoken at Bradley
1:32:46and I have wonderful memories there
1:32:47weren't protests um but Studies have
1:32:51been done by social psychologists and
1:32:54legal theorists also have supported the
1:32:56notion that uh a major harm from even
1:33:01threatening speech that could be
1:33:02punished much less constitutionally
1:33:05protected hate speech is not the initial
1:33:07speech itself but if there is lack of
1:33:10objection to it from the surrounding
1:33:13Community if there's lack of support for
1:33:16the person who is the target of the hate
1:33:18speech conversely when you have
1:33:20University presidents student body
1:33:23leaders other members of the Campus
1:33:25Community rallying to support the
1:33:27students who are the target of that
1:33:29speech uh that ends up being not such a
1:33:32dam it can become a a a resilient
1:33:36empowering kind of
1:33:37experience thank you thank G gentleman
1:33:41from Kentucky Mr Massie is recognized I
1:33:43remember my very first day on campus I
1:33:46grew up in a rural town in Kentucky 1500
1:33:49people and I went to a school in
1:33:51Cambridge Massachusetts had never even
1:33:53visited the campus I crossed the
1:33:55crosswalk we didn't have any crosswalks
1:33:57where I grew up and a car honked at
1:34:00me I thought what are the odds I've been
1:34:03here an hour and already met somebody I
1:34:05know I turned around waved at the car um
1:34:09I think they were waving back with one
1:34:10finger but what that showed me is these
1:34:13people may have different ideas or a
1:34:15different upbringing than than I had um
1:34:19Mrs uh Miss ston articulated a threshold
1:34:24for uh reasonable expectation whether
1:34:27something is hate speech or whether it's
1:34:29protected or not Mr lawence she said it
1:34:32would maybe the threshold should be
1:34:34reasonable expectation to that it would
1:34:36instill fear or violence of fear of
1:34:39violence or harm is that would you like
1:34:42to in less than 30 seconds if you could
1:34:44sort of articulate the standard of what
1:34:47might be protected and what might not
1:34:49yeah I think that uh that uh Professor
1:34:51Shon and I are in roughly the same place
1:34:53on this I would just focus more as we
1:34:55often do in the criminal law on the
1:34:57intent of the actor so was it behavior
1:34:59that was intended uh to threaten or
1:35:01intimidate not to confound not to
1:35:03trouble uh not to raise new opinions but
1:35:06to threaten or to intimidate okay I've
1:35:08got a document here you may recognize
1:35:11it's the Constitution and the
1:35:12Declaration of Independence if if I
1:35:15brandish this Mr Lawrence uh in your
1:35:18presence are you intimidated does It
1:35:20Strike fear in your heart do you think
1:35:22that harm may come to you very very soon
1:35:24I I think it is actually much safer than
1:35:26crossing the street in cranb
1:35:28Massachusetts I would agree but uh the
1:35:31administrators at the Kellog Community
1:35:34College don't they arrested students for
1:35:36handing out a constitution can you
1:35:39imagine that that's the height of irony
1:35:42how far has this Ridiculousness gone if
1:35:45students are arrested for handing out
1:35:48constitutions this is the document that
1:35:50contains the First Amendment the
1:35:52protection in there I think maybe we
1:35:55have gone too far um if this is now
1:35:59recognized as something that passes that
1:36:01threshold Mr uh Corolla do you I I know
1:36:05King George may have found this to be
1:36:08insightful but uh do you find your
1:36:11basketball player I don't give
1:36:14up on the Kings
1:36:17um I I was just having a thought no I'm
1:36:19sorry continue your your no I just want
1:36:22to know is this a threatening doc does
1:36:24this cross the threshold uh not unless
1:36:26there's a knife hidden inside of it
1:36:28right uh no but as I was hearing
1:36:32everyone um speak I I I never went to
1:36:35college um there's something I I I do I
1:36:39would like to touch on very quickly
1:36:40which is um going through diversity
1:36:43training going to college we're all
1:36:46sitting here first off under the
1:36:48assumption that 100% of kids go to
1:36:51college I didn't know anyone went to
1:36:54college so I had to figure out a way to
1:36:55be a decent human being not to be racist
1:36:58not to be filled with hate to be
1:37:00tolerant minus College I think that
1:37:03starts at home so if we if you get to 18
1:37:07or 19 I believe the cement on the
1:37:10sidewalk of your brain has already dried
1:37:14and good luck carving your initials into
1:37:16it with diversity training if you're a
1:37:18bad kid and we get hold of you in
1:37:20college you're probably just going to be
1:37:22a bad adult you need to learn to be a
1:37:24good human being from zero to college
1:37:27instead of us all converting you once
1:37:30you get to College uh and especially
1:37:33since more than half the people don't
1:37:34end up in college so we're sitting here
1:37:36with a grand plan of how to coach
1:37:38everyone up once they get to College
1:37:40what if they never get to College what
1:37:42about their parents and what kind of job
1:37:44are they doing coaching the kids up so
1:37:47that they need no coaching whether they
1:37:49go to college or not um Mr Shapiro I'm
1:37:53going to assume you don't find this to
1:37:55be a threatening or harmful
1:37:57document I've bred it a few people
1:38:00myself yeah um look the college's
1:38:03defense when they arrested these
1:38:05students by the way they spent overnight
1:38:07in jail seven hours in jail for handing
1:38:09out constitutions you said something
1:38:12earlier that struck me that time place
1:38:14and manner regulations are being used to
1:38:17restrict Free Speech because that's what
1:38:19the college said to these students who
1:38:21belong to Young Americans for Liberty
1:38:23they said if you just filled out the
1:38:24paperwork if You' stood 100t over there
1:38:27instead of where you're standing and if
1:38:29You' done it at this time we would have
1:38:30allowed you to hand out our nation's
1:38:32founding document can you speak to to
1:38:35how time Manner and place restrictions
1:38:37are being abused so most obviously uh UC
1:38:40Berkeley did that with an Coulter where
1:38:42they kept moving around her room and
1:38:43they kept saying they didn't have rooms
1:38:44available uh they said the same thing to
1:38:46me a week ago there were some public
1:38:47outcry and now they're offering some
1:38:48rooms which you know I hope that that
1:38:50event goes forward uh it's not rare uh
1:38:53they they do do this a lot uh it's a
1:38:56private university that did it was depal
1:38:57University I was threatened with arrest
1:38:58if I set foot on campus I actually
1:39:00showed up there in a a security guard
1:39:01told me if I I asked him if I move six
1:39:03inches forward are you going to arrest
1:39:04me and he said yes and he had the
1:39:05sheriff of quick County behind him uh so
1:39:07this is uh you know it's it's become a
1:39:10cover for ideological discrimination
1:39:12because if tanesi coats wants to speak
1:39:14on these campuses there's not going to
1:39:15be any problem the administrators will
1:39:16make certain that time place and manner
1:39:18restrictions don't get in the way uh and
1:39:20this is why I say you saying that the
1:39:22discretion of Administrators is
1:39:24wonderful is all well and good except
1:39:26that they very often are attempting to
1:39:28achieve a particular political End by
1:39:30using means that are normally legitimate
1:39:33uh and uh and that's that's definitely a
1:39:35dangerous thing if I if you don't mind I
1:39:37have a quick note on something uh that I
1:39:39think it was um Mr Lawrence was saying
1:39:41earlier about the damage that stun to
1:39:43students by various things that happen
1:39:45on campus by by uh by threats of
1:39:47violence and this sort of thing uh and
1:39:49obviously everyone I think agrees that
1:39:51what happened to Taylor is uh is
1:39:52unacceptable
1:39:53but one of the things that I think
1:39:54should also be pointed out is we have a
1:39:55lot of other students in the in the
1:39:57crowd and administrators who spend an
1:39:58enormous amount of time pushing stuff
1:40:00like white privilege means that you must
1:40:03accept that you are subordinate in terms
1:40:05of your view because of identity this
1:40:07also has some lasting damage with regard
1:40:09to First Amendment exercise and with
1:40:11regard to how people perceive the
1:40:12freedom of the country and I understand
1:40:13that this is universally held belief
1:40:16among University Educators uh that we
1:40:19have to accept the the guilt of
1:40:21particular races uh or particular sexual
1:40:24orientations for discrimination that's
1:40:26happened in the past but when you teach
1:40:27a bunch of 18 and 19 year old people
1:40:29this uh you shouldn't be you shouldn't
1:40:31be surprised when number one they go
1:40:34into hiding with their Viewpoint or
1:40:36number two they become frustrated it's
1:40:38it's an absurdity to suggest that you
1:40:39can tell people that their viewpoints
1:40:40are out of line because of their
1:40:41identity at the same time you're telling
1:40:43other people that their viewpoints are
1:40:45completely in line because of their
1:40:46identity and that any assault on their
1:40:48senses must be protected or prevented at
1:40:50any cost well I would just like to point
1:40:52out in closing the group uh Young
1:40:55Americans for Liberty that is handing
1:40:56out constitutions on campuses all across
1:40:58the country has changed Free Speech
1:41:01restrictions on 25 campuses just by
1:41:03handing out this document not by setting
1:41:06fires because they didn't like the
1:41:07speaker or throwing rocks through
1:41:09windows but by handing out this
1:41:11Constitution and I am inspired that
1:41:13there are young people who are inspired
1:41:15by this document and it should never be
1:41:17illegal to hand out this document well
1:41:20said uh Mr Massie uh real quick Miss
1:41:22Miss ston is Mr zapiro Right are most of
1:41:24the anti-sp speech um activities going
1:41:27on on campuses targeted towards
1:41:28conservatives and Libertarians the
1:41:31certainly the wellp publicized ones have
1:41:33been uh and I don't I can't speak for
1:41:38campuses across the country but I go
1:41:40back to an opening point that I made
1:41:42which was best summarized in the title
1:41:44of a book by Nat hentoff I just I just
1:41:46wanted to answer I can't we'll come back
1:41:48to that but I just was wanted to respond
1:41:50to Mr Shapiro's point I mean that's my
1:41:52understanding as well well and I I'll
1:41:54those are the well publicized incidents
1:41:56and it would be consistent with what
1:41:58surveys show about the prevailing
1:42:01beliefs on campus that the um majority
1:42:04of students have are are in the liberal
1:42:06end of the political Spectrum the
1:42:07majority of Faculty members are on the
1:42:09liberal and Spectrum so they would be
1:42:12more likely to be offended byess you're
1:42:16smiling you find that shocking too don't
1:42:17you uh the gentle lady from the District
1:42:20of Columbia is recognized for her five
1:42:21minutes oh thank you Mr chairman um I
1:42:24I'm pleased that the entire panel U
1:42:27appears to believe that exposure to
1:42:30speech that hurts is part and parcel of
1:42:34living in a uh Democratic Free Speech
1:42:39Society um uh it pains me I have to say
1:42:44uh when I hear of African-American
1:42:47students in particular claiming about
1:42:49hurt feelings when it comes to speech I
1:42:52say as a black woman and ask them to
1:42:55remember that Frederick Douglas and I'm
1:42:59pleased that this committee has just
1:43:01passed a a resolution sorry a a bill
1:43:05that will allow Douglas's Bicentennial
1:43:08to be
1:43:09commemorated that at the same time that
1:43:13African-Americans were enslaved
1:43:15Frederick
1:43:16Douglas uh was able in even that Society
1:43:22to den down slavery all over the United
1:43:25States
1:43:28um uh Mrs Shapiro I dare say I've had
1:43:33the opportunity to defend people who
1:43:36were even more controversial than you
1:43:39are uh I was assistant legal director of
1:43:42the American civil liberties
1:43:44Union uh it was a small
1:43:47office and I had a memorable
1:43:51opportunity uh to to argue before The
1:43:54Supreme Court a so-called prior
1:43:57restraint
1:43:59case that was a case where as a matter
1:44:02of fact it it was in princees Anne
1:44:04County at that time I lived in New York
1:44:06Prince Anne County
1:44:07Maryland and the uh a u
1:44:12Proto naazi racist
1:44:15party uh came uh in that county and gave
1:44:19a speech of the kind you might expect
1:44:22that the blacks and Jews and anybody
1:44:25else they could think of well the
1:44:27state's attorney went into court and got
1:44:29an
1:44:30injunction against their ability to
1:44:33speak the next day and that case was
1:44:37appealed all the way I I argue the case
1:44:39in the Supreme Court not as it was
1:44:41appealed uh up Supreme Court ruled
1:44:46unanimously that those vile words could
1:44:49be spoken without being being censored
1:44:53ahead of time in in essence this kind of
1:44:57activity in the country and on the
1:45:00campus uh is is intended to have some
1:45:03kind of chilling effect to keep people
1:45:05from wanting to speak at at all
1:45:09um the Republican lead assembly in
1:45:12Wisconsin uh has taken a stab at what to
1:45:15do about this because I don't think we
1:45:17want to encourage hateful speech and I
1:45:20appreciate what uh Professor Z Zimmerman
1:45:24and Mr Lawrence have said about the
1:45:26anecdotes to hate
1:45:29speech uh but uh if you leave this to
1:45:33legislators they have only the law at
1:45:37their
1:45:38disposal now in
1:45:41Wisconsin um the State Assembly
1:45:44there um passed the bill recently passed
1:45:49a bill that would require disciplinary
1:45:51action and that action could be
1:45:53suspension or
1:45:55expulsion This Is How They framed what
1:45:58would get you suspension or uh
1:46:01expulsion any student who engages an
1:46:04indecent profane borous obscene
1:46:08unreasonably loud or other disorderly
1:46:11conduct that interferes with the Free
1:46:13Speech free expression of other others
1:46:17every Democrat voted against this what
1:46:19kind of polarization is this I'm glad to
1:46:21see we don't have it in this committee
1:46:22every Democrat voted against that every
1:46:25Republican voted for that um the status
1:46:30uh um assembly by the way was not shy in
1:46:34making clear what their purpose was it
1:46:36was to suppress the campus protest that
1:46:39had they had seen over that time um Mr
1:46:44dwson I read your written testimony
1:46:47where you give uh a a wonderful
1:46:50expository about uh free
1:46:56speech and you mentioned vague unclear
1:47:00guidelines as having a potential
1:47:03chilling effect when people read those
1:47:07guidelines uh and I I guess i' when you
1:47:11when you talk about clear objective
1:47:13guidelines uh I just read to you the
1:47:17words of the Wisconsin legislature
1:47:19gauges in in indecent profane borous
1:47:22obscene reasonably loud Etc spe
1:47:26speech uh would you have
1:47:29concerns about that statute that
1:47:32Wisconsin statute and what do you think
1:47:35would be the concerns of for example the
1:47:38Supreme Court of the United States well
1:47:40as uh Justice John Marshall Harland who
1:47:44is a graduate from New York law school I
1:47:47have to correct that typo where I teach
1:47:50uh famously said one person's vulgarity
1:47:54is another person's lyric one person's
1:47:58indecent profane space speech is
1:48:00somebody else's poetic speech one
1:48:03person's unreasonably loud speech is
1:48:05somebody else's clearly audible speech
1:48:08the reason why we do not allow
1:48:11government to enforce these vague
1:48:13standards is that they depend on
1:48:17subjective value judgments which can
1:48:20turn on nothing other than the political
1:48:22preferences of the enforcing authorities
1:48:25which is exactly what we're all
1:48:26complaining about we need to have clear
1:48:29objective standards relating to
1:48:32demonstrable Serious harm such as
1:48:35violence or threats to constrain the
1:48:38discretion so as not to punish
1:48:40disfavored ideas now chairman uh
1:48:42congresswoman Norton I don't know if you
1:48:44got to the appendix to my testimony but
1:48:48uh it includes a very old but still
1:48:50timely sadly law review article which
1:48:53quotes a certain Eleanor Holmes Norton
1:48:56way back in 1990 uh who said and this is
1:48:59exactly on point it is technically
1:49:02impossible to write an anti-s speech
1:49:04code that cannot be twisted against
1:49:07speech nobody means to Bar it has been
1:49:11tried and tried and tried so you
1:49:14answered your own question very
1:49:16eloquently thank you very much thank you
1:49:18Mr chairman I think I should I should
1:49:20end with that
1:49:22and on a high note there that's great
1:49:24yeah thank you uh the gentleman
1:49:27from gentleman from
1:49:30Virginia gentleman from Virginia is
1:49:32recognized not not that I didn't want to
1:49:33recognize today but technically Mr
1:49:35Meadows is up next but I'll go to you
1:49:36and then we'll come back to Mr Meadows
1:49:38thank you Mr chairman and my two
1:49:40colleagues are letting me uh go prior to
1:49:43them because it's my birthday and my
1:49:44parents are out in Statuary Hall and so
1:49:47uh my qu I'm a professor I see a lot of
1:49:50young people out there it's great to see
1:49:51you raise your hand if if you're
1:49:53young raise your hand if you feel young
1:49:56right good so we got lot I'm a professor
1:49:58for 20 years so I used to torture you
1:50:01all in economics 101 classes so I see
1:50:03you sitting here so here you go again
1:50:04I'm going give you a little uh
1:50:06philosophical lecture and uh the
1:50:09witnesses today were all just phenomenal
1:50:11uh Mr Corolla in in the last series of
1:50:14questions said uh we got to learn to be
1:50:16good and that right there sums it up and
1:50:19I'm going to ask the college presidents
1:50:21how we ground our philosophical
1:50:23statements that'll be my question right
1:50:25so they they can give a cursory view of
1:50:27Western Civ in the 30 seconds I leave
1:50:29you at the end but I have a famous
1:50:31painting in my office with Plato
1:50:33pointing up right what is the good he
1:50:35thought it was up there in the realm of
1:50:37the forums and Aristotle's pointing down
1:50:40and no one has resolved that question
1:50:41philosophically in 2400 years there is
1:50:44no definition of the good that's what
1:50:47makes it crucially important that we do
1:50:49the liberal arts education and allow all
1:50:52views to be heard from 2400 years of
1:50:55human history and on that note I hope we
1:50:57all agree my colleagues on the other
1:50:59side of the aisle have spoken about
1:51:00atrocities that have occurred in Western
1:51:02Civ I totally agree with them that's not
1:51:04what this is about today but it's about
1:51:06teaching these first principles
1:51:08everyone's talking about shared values
1:51:10today I'm not sure if there are any sh
1:51:12shared values today uh the guy if you
1:51:14want to read a good book read Alistair
1:51:16McIntyre he's the he'll start off on the
1:51:18good right you probably heard of him uh
1:51:20but his book is called which r rality
1:51:23who's Justice same question right who's
1:51:26Justice which rationality and what is
1:51:29the good and we don't have answers to
1:51:31that right now so your generation better
1:51:33get moving uh the liberal arts I started
1:51:36teaching about 20 years ago we went from
1:51:38liberalism I I'm a 19th century liberal
1:51:41right they call me a right-wing knuckle
1:51:42dragger in the newspaper right but I'm a
1:51:45class I believe in Adam Smith and James
1:51:47Manis and the author of The Constitution
1:51:50and liberals my liberal colleagues on
1:51:52the Democratic side of the aisle always
1:51:53used to respect my view 20 years ago
1:51:55that shifted in Academia in the last 20
1:51:57years now it's the hard left and they're
1:52:00following a philosophy called
1:52:01deconstruction they're ripping apart the
1:52:03foundations of the country the
1:52:05judeo-christian tradition the rule of
1:52:06law and free markets are under attack by
1:52:09the left not my Democrat friends I go to
1:52:11church with that's a distinction and if
1:52:13you ask them to ground their definition
1:52:16of the good or name a philosopher that
1:52:18undergirds their thinking they can't do
1:52:20it so make sure you young people ask
1:52:22your professors when they're spouting
1:52:23off say name a philosopher and if they
1:52:26can't do it write about it in the
1:52:27student newspaper cuz that's it's an
1:52:30embarrassment and so uh I went to
1:52:32Princeton seminary the Seminary
1:52:34voluntarily moved itself across the
1:52:36tracks because we don't believe in
1:52:37forcing religion on other people that's
1:52:38the great debate right so we've had the
1:52:40enlightenment project we tried to ground
1:52:43reality in human reason alone worked
1:52:46great in The Sciences but in the moral
1:52:48realm it failed right Jefferson uh
1:52:51Emanuel k was kind of the end of the
1:52:53Enlightenment project uh and the moral
1:52:56Vision failed because they could not
1:52:58tell you why it is that human uh beings
1:53:01are worthy of dignity in the first place
1:53:04but our shared values were delivered in
1:53:06the Declaration was fairly clear we have
1:53:09inalienable rights that come from our
1:53:12creator wow there's a shocker ask your
1:53:15leftist professors if they believe in
1:53:17those shared values those inalienable
1:53:20rights right that precede the existence
1:53:22of government that come from our creator
1:53:26and boy there you have it all right so
1:53:29that has been rejected by the left in K
1:53:32to2 education I'm sad to report the kids
1:53:35are not taught any system of ethics for
1:53:37the first 13 years of their education
1:53:40and then in college they're taught
1:53:42leftism and so now we're left talking
1:53:45about Free Speech one particular part of
1:53:49the First Amendment and a narrow part
1:53:52and we're being told by some people uh
1:53:54leave it to the uh academic institutions
1:53:57you've got to be kidding me these are
1:53:59the first principles that ground and
1:54:02surround the space that universities
1:54:05inhabit right so the rule of law has to
1:54:08proceed what educational entities do and
1:54:10that's why we're here today talking
1:54:11about the law that will surround uh the
1:54:14space you all act in and so uh I'll just
1:54:19give you another quiz here's the ethical
1:54:21schools that are taught in in higher red
1:54:23raise your hand if you're an
1:54:25aotian no none of them all right raise
1:54:28your hand if you're a follower of
1:54:30utilitarianism Bentham John Stewart
1:54:33Mill really good good for you okay
1:54:35that's the harm principle Miss straon
1:54:37mentioned that uh raise your hand if
1:54:39you're a follower of Emanuel Kant if
1:54:41you're a
1:54:43Conan so so we got two people good so
1:54:46those are the schools of thought you're
1:54:47allowed to teach because they're the
1:54:48enlightenment schools of reason right
1:54:51now no one follows those schools of
1:54:52thought but in higher red you're not
1:54:54allowed to teach about the
1:54:56judeo-christian tradition Judaism
1:54:58Christianity Buddhism Confucianism and
1:55:01religion how many people in the audience
1:55:03and in the real world live out those
1:55:05Traditions uh just about seven billion
1:55:07people out of eight billion right and
1:55:10that's why I think we got a fundamental
1:55:12problem so there's my lecture uh
1:55:14presidents if you want to weigh in on
1:55:16what has gone wrong in higher ed over
1:55:20the past 20 years and how can we fix it
1:55:2430 seconds 30 seconds I wouldn't
1:55:27wouldn't dare touch that but what I am
1:55:30willing to touch until you tell me
1:55:32otherwise is two things first I want to
1:55:34thank you for your your uh passion in
1:55:37defense of the liberal arts because the
1:55:38liberal arts which has nothing to do
1:55:40with liberal or conservative it has to
1:55:42do with its origin um is critically
1:55:44important and and the liberal arts are
1:55:46based on an idea that that all ideas
1:55:48need to be discussed I'd argue with you
1:55:51just a drop in saying that I frankly
1:55:53don't believe the majority of professors
1:55:56on college campuses have taken the view
1:55:58that that you've espoused unfortunately
1:56:00some have from my 40 years in in the
1:56:03academy I've I've had any number of
1:56:06conversations with parents in which I've
1:56:08said what good faculty members want to
1:56:11do and I believe in the institutions
1:56:13I've been a part of almost all of our
1:56:15faculty members are good faculty members
1:56:17they want to teach your students how to
1:56:18think and if in the course of that
1:56:21instruction they think something
1:56:23different at the end than they did at
1:56:24the beginning that's okay if they don't
1:56:27think anything different that's okay as
1:56:29long as they can articulate either of
1:56:31those beliefs very rarely I believe to
1:56:35faculty go into a classroom and say
1:56:37Here's what you need to think you need
1:56:39to learn to think like I think you need
1:56:41to you need to Parrot back what I
1:56:43believe yes that happens and it
1:56:46happens not very often but too
1:56:48frequently because if it happens at all
1:56:51it's too frequent but I I don't think
1:56:52that's the
1:56:53norm yeah I I would agree with that it
1:56:56was interesting one of your colleagues
1:56:57said a little earlier uh that actually
1:56:58there's very good working relationships
1:57:00across the aisle here we don't see it
1:57:02out in public and I think that's exactly
1:57:04the same phenomenon we're talking about
1:57:05in the University there's a lot of
1:57:06things that happen in the classroom in
1:57:08office hours and seminar rooms that
1:57:10don't get a lot of play because what if
1:57:11it if it bleeds it leads is the way the
1:57:13media treats you and also treats us and
1:57:16in Academia um as the as the CEO of the
1:57:18five beta cap Society I would be remiss
1:57:20if I did not thank you for your deep
1:57:22embracement of the liberal arts um fapa
1:57:25stands for philosophia B kubernetes
1:57:27which means love of learning is the
1:57:29guide of life I mentioned that
1:57:30Congressman because it's about the
1:57:32process of the learning which I think is
1:57:35key and when we lose track of that then
1:57:37I think we get ourselves in problems but
1:57:39the great legal philosopher Alexander
1:57:41ble said the only true Integrity is the
1:57:43Integrity of process and the process by
1:57:45which we learn in our universities which
1:57:47is really what we're here talking about
1:57:49today uh is what is the glory of our
1:57:51University system in this country I just
1:57:53want to I want to thank the panel and Mr
1:57:55Shapiro you're First Rate philosopher on
1:57:57the on the rise I can tell thank you
1:57:59very much before I think the gentleman
1:58:01before recogniz Miss plaset I should
1:58:02point that we've been here a couple
1:58:04hours if anyone needs the facil use the
1:58:06restroom or anything just let us know we
1:58:08we can take a short recess um um or if
1:58:11you need I think you got plenty of water
1:58:12and all that so we'd like to go for a
1:58:14little while longer um and we'll now go
1:58:16to miss plasket for her
1:58:18questioning thank you very much Mr
1:58:20chairman for um the opportunity to have
1:58:23a discussion on this
1:58:25topic um Mr Zimmerman I think that what
1:58:29you stated Dr Zimmerman that
1:58:32universities and schools are for
1:58:34teaching individuals how to think uh
1:58:37that's primary as you st Mr Lawrence and
1:58:40Mr corer I couldn't be more than uh an
1:58:43agreement with you about the toughness
1:58:45that's needed uh by young people and I
1:58:49have to tell you you don't have to look
1:58:51at any other group that's tougher than
1:58:54young black men and women who go to
1:58:56universities or I have gone to
1:58:58universities or predominantly white
1:59:01schools you got to eventually if you're
1:59:03going to come out of there on top have a
1:59:05thick
1:59:06skin uh I went to one of the most elite
1:59:12private boarding schools in the early
1:59:1480s when almost nobody was there that
1:59:16looked like me you know what it's like
1:59:18to be a African-American Caribbean woman
1:59:21at a boarding school in Connecticut when
1:59:24you grew up in Brooklyn New York um and
1:59:27being asked to give the black point of
1:59:29view in the classroom when you didn't
1:59:32even know you had a point of view at 13
1:59:34years old um but I think what we are
1:59:38need to discuss here and my colleague Mr
1:59:41brat talked about it about the influence
1:59:43of the extreme left but he didn't talk
1:59:46about the influence of the extreme right
1:59:48as well and how that is affecting our
1:59:51young young people on campuses what does
1:59:54the altright as well as the extreme left
1:59:57doing to the discourse and the civility
2:00:00on campuses uh I'm very honored to have
2:00:05uh Ms dumpson Taylor dumpson here I am a
2:00:09graduate of American University's law
2:00:11school where one of my first year law
2:00:13professors sits next to me I'm always
2:00:15happy to point out that he's more Junior
2:00:17than I am now in Congress but he was my
2:00:21professor there
2:00:22and um I understand what you go through
2:00:24and I'm grateful that your mother is
2:00:26here with you and that you have the
2:00:27support of your family that's important
2:00:30uh because you know the Anti-Defamation
2:00:33League has recently reported that in the
2:00:35past 6 months alone I quote they have
2:00:38seen a spike in anti-semitic hateful
2:00:40incidents on campuses and I know that
2:00:43we're talking about Free Speech free
2:00:45speech is important but I think that it
2:00:48would be inclusive for us to discuss
2:00:50this not just in the context of how it
2:00:52affects conservative speech and
2:00:54conservative students but how it affects
2:00:56all students I think that we are doing
2:00:59the American public a disservice when we
2:01:01only talk about one side of the coin and
2:01:04not the other um I fear for our
2:01:08conservative young children who feel
2:01:10that they can't say what they want to
2:01:12say in a respectful manner uh and in the
2:01:16same way I'm concerned for those who
2:01:19come on campuses who are not respectful
2:01:22in their speech whether it be to Mr
2:01:24Shapiro whether it be to Taylor dumpson
2:01:27being having an ability to hold office
2:01:30on the campus for which her family has
2:01:33supported her to be there that's a
2:01:35problem and that's a problem that this
2:01:37committee should be concerned with but
2:01:39who is the appropriate individual or the
2:01:42institutions to address that I don't
2:01:45think it's the
2:01:46legislature's job to do that I think
2:01:49it's for us to question the institution
2:01:52and ensure that they do it on May 1st
2:01:54after being elected the University's
2:01:57first African-American student body
2:01:59President we discussed that Miss dumpson
2:02:02was um met with hung newses around
2:02:06campus some with bananas with the
2:02:07message of AKA free which references
2:02:10Alpac Kappa Alpha a traditionally
2:02:13African-American sorority that Miss
2:02:16Taylor um dumpson belongs to and I am
2:02:20Mei me right now myself I'm sorry I
2:02:23never belong to a sorority but we
2:02:26appreciate the work of your sorority in
2:02:29the African-American Community along
2:02:30with the others and not too long after
2:02:33um she was subjected to harassment on
2:02:35social media by a known Neo-Nazi group
2:02:38so Lawrence are you familiar with the
2:02:40hate speech incidents that she I just
2:02:42described yes I am and is that an
2:02:45example of hate speech that crosses the
2:02:46line and should have no place on a
2:02:48college campus that that is that is
2:02:50correct Congressman I I would say that's
2:02:51actually you know what I usually mean by
2:02:53hate speech or hateful speech is is uh
2:02:57the kind of speech that is in fact
2:02:58protected and ought to be criticized by
2:03:01University administrators I would say
2:03:02what happened to miss dumpson crosses
2:03:04the line actually over to being a hate
2:03:06crime why is that because of the the uh
2:03:09clear intent of the actor is not to
2:03:12communicate a view but to threaten her
2:03:14to intimidate her to instill fear in her
2:03:16when that happens we're no longer in the
2:03:18realm of having a even difficult
2:03:21provocative conversation we've crossed
2:03:22over the line into threats so it's as
2:03:25Miss uh stren discussed that a
2:03:28reasonable person would see that as
2:03:30threatening speech not as one that is
2:03:33merely to express an opinion that may be
2:03:36different than IND that is certainly how
2:03:38I would understand it and would you
2:03:39agree with that as I agree with that and
2:03:41and I should say the fact that we call
2:03:43it a hate crime or a bias crime means
2:03:45that it is subject to increased
2:03:47punishment even Beyond a uh non-hateful
2:03:50or discriminatory crime because it
2:03:53causes additional harm not only to the
2:03:55immediate Target but to the um
2:03:57surrounding Community as well now it's
2:04:00interesting Mr Shapiro you talked about
2:04:02white privilege and um just this week I
2:04:05had a conversation with Rachel Lazer
2:04:07who's done some work um a Jewish
2:04:10American woman who's done some work on
2:04:12this area as well as uh having extensive
2:04:16conversations um with Dr Greg parks of
2:04:19Wake Forest University who's also talked
2:04:22quite a bit about um critical race
2:04:25Theory um and it's it's my understanding
2:04:28that white privilege is not telling
2:04:29individuals that they cannot speak but
2:04:32it is a term for societal privilege that
2:04:35individuals have as a benefit of their
2:04:38white skin um and I don't think that um
2:04:42and I think universities would be remiss
2:04:45to then say that because you're white
2:04:47you're not allowed to say anything
2:04:49that's critical of white people I didn't
2:04:51know that White Privilege actually went
2:04:53into that sphere my understanding is
2:04:55it's just and the issue is is that white
2:04:57privilege makes people uncomfortable to
2:04:59talk about the societal privilege that
2:05:02they have well to me the what I say on
2:05:05campuses all the time is if you want to
2:05:07site instances of racism that we can all
2:05:10find and fight together that's something
2:05:12that I'm more than willing to stand next
2:05:14to you and fight because that's
2:05:16obviously stuff that we should fight
2:05:17together but when you just say that
2:05:18there is a white privilege out there in
2:05:20The Ether and that by Dent of birth
2:05:21you're skin color generates for you an
2:05:23advantage what you're really saying to
2:05:24people is that you your view is less
2:05:27valuable because you have not
2:05:28experienced what I've experienced and
2:05:30that is an identity argument that's a
2:05:31character argument that's not a rational
2:05:33political argument that can actually be
2:05:35be taken on in any way that's that's
2:05:37it's more of a it's more of a cudgel and
2:05:39a club than it is an attempt to open a
2:05:41discussion well I think it's a um
2:05:45demonstrable evidence that um through
2:05:48society's demographics that um being
2:05:52white has societal privileges that being
2:05:55black does not but I we talk about how
2:05:57that manifest I'm also interested in
2:05:59what you just said now was that you
2:06:01would stand next to anyone who has this
2:06:03so Mr Shapiro my question to you is um
2:06:06for miss miss dumpen the tying the news
2:06:09around the campus and writing messages
2:06:11that Target African-American young
2:06:13students would you consider that hate
2:06:15speech and then would you stand next to
2:06:16her and fight for her as I say I would
2:06:19this is the first time I'm hearing about
2:06:20it honestly but really yeah um but but
2:06:23from from hearing about maybe it's local
2:06:26I mean I'm from La um but in any case um
2:06:28I'm more than happy more than happy to
2:06:30to stand alongside her and and fight
2:06:32whatever group was responsible for this
2:06:34not not only more than happy I mean
2:06:35you're talking about the altright again
2:06:36I was the number one target of
2:06:38antiemetic harassment from the altright
2:06:39last year so I'm more than happy to do
2:06:41all that and I I think there's one more
2:06:43distinction that has to be made when we
2:06:44talk about cases like like Taylor
2:06:47they're horrific and the administration
2:06:48is siding with Taylor okay the
2:06:50administration is doing the right thing
2:06:52by Taylor or trying to do the right
2:06:53thing by Taylor as they should be and I
2:06:56think that we need to make a distinction
2:06:57between cases where the administration
2:06:58is actively participating in the
2:07:00suppression of speech and cases in which
2:07:01the administration is trying to do the
2:07:03right thing as a as in order to in order
2:07:05to make people in order to punish people
2:07:07for uh application of crime gentleman
2:07:10gent L's time has expired the gentleman
2:07:12from North Carolina is
2:07:13recognized thank you Mr chairman as we
2:07:16look at this this fundamental question
2:07:18of free speech and where we cross the
2:07:20line is certainly something something
2:07:21that is not new in terms of how we argue
2:07:25this point and yet here I find it
2:07:28interesting today that some of the
2:07:31direction we are going seems to be at
2:07:34odds with what we've looked at
2:07:36institutions of Higher Learning at being
2:07:38the beacon of free speech which would
2:07:42not normally be the norm and now all of
2:07:44a sudden we're there I without giving a
2:07:46name of the particular University I was
2:07:49really surprised to find that there was
2:07:51a free speech Zone that allowed to
2:07:55actually be out of the mainstream view
2:07:58of most people and they allowed you to
2:08:01write in chalk but it was the
2:08:05chalk that was written in the the word
2:08:08Trump was there and all of the sudden
2:08:10people got fearful for Trump being
2:08:12written in chalk now I went by this and
2:08:16I can't imagine anybody being afraid of
2:08:20a chalk drawing on a sidewalk and if
2:08:23that's the case then I would say that
2:08:25there's probably bathrooms all over this
2:08:27country where people would not want to
2:08:29go in for fear of what they may see on a
2:08:32bathroom wall so let's don't take it to
2:08:35extremes and let's make sure that we
2:08:38understand that free speech is the
2:08:40Bedrock of who we are it is truly what
2:08:43we must fight for and if we start to
2:08:46take it to extremes we have a problem
2:08:48that being said is an Evangelical I come
2:08:52out very strongly in defense of my
2:08:54Jewish friends who truly who have had
2:08:58persecution for years and yet somehow on
2:09:01college campuses it is not okay to
2:09:04defend that in fact we go the other way
2:09:06to suggest that they shouldn't be
2:09:08defended and I find that offensive and
2:09:11until we get that right we're going to
2:09:14have a number of
2:09:15issues so with that opening statement
2:09:17let me go into a couple of questions Mr
2:09:19Zimmerman I'm a little concerned and I
2:09:21understand that you perhaps have been
2:09:23critical of your
2:09:25previous uh Alma moer we might say or or
2:09:29place of employment Evergreen State
2:09:31College because I I look here and we've
2:09:34had $22 million in Grants and
2:09:36scholarship AIDs that have gone to them
2:09:39we've had over $7 million in federal
2:09:42grants that have gone gone to them we've
2:09:44had another 15 million in student loans
2:09:46and yet we're seeing a chilling effect
2:09:48on Free Speech do you think they're
2:09:50getting it wrong
2:09:53yes I do okay thank you and I I assume
2:09:55that you would say that do you think
2:09:57that they took bad advice from someone
2:09:59when they were invited here to testify
2:10:01and they said that a member of Congress
2:10:03said that they shouldn't come before the
2:10:04oversight committee to defend their
2:10:06position do you think that that was
2:10:09misinformed I can answer it the answer
2:10:11is
2:10:12yes would you agree with that uh that's
2:10:17not for me to say well would it be for
2:10:20you to say that has said if we're going
2:10:22to take away federal dollars from
2:10:24universities who will not truly defend
2:10:28free speech that that would be
2:10:29appropriate I'm sure that they would
2:10:31want to weigh in on that oh I I believe
2:10:33every administrator on every campus
2:10:35ought to be defending Free Speech
2:10:36absolutely so Mr Lawrence let me come to
2:10:39you because I understand with your new
2:10:43position uh at
2:10:46ADL uh of which many times people on my
2:10:50side of the aisle would see them as
2:10:52being in contrast to that I don't I in
2:10:55fact I've encouraged my son to actually
2:10:58uh join you in in really fighting for
2:11:01those things that are critical but I am
2:11:03troubled by one part of your Kumbaya
2:11:07opening testimony I take it you mean
2:11:10that as a compliment Congress well I
2:11:12wouldn't take it that way yet so let's
2:11:14go ahead and and and uh go there here is
2:11:18my concern because in your previous
2:11:22career you talked about well we're all
2:11:24about free speech and we are really
2:11:26there and yet there was a certain young
2:11:31lady a Somalia born activist that was
2:11:34disinvited from getting an honorary
2:11:36degree at your direction and it was in
2:11:392014 where uh Miss Ali was disinvited
2:11:44because quote the university defended
2:11:48this decision saying it could not quote
2:11:50Overlook certain of her past statements
2:11:52that are inconsistent with Brandy
2:11:54University core values close quote now
2:11:56the problem is she is espousing
2:12:00anti-islamic views and the promotion of
2:12:03women's rights so which one of those are
2:12:05against their core view first of all not
2:12:08neither of those um the um so they're
2:12:10both your core views but the uh what I
2:12:12would say no I would say ne neither of
2:12:14those was the subject uh of so why did
2:12:17she get dis why did you disinvite her
2:12:19when she is being a true activist do you
2:12:21think that some terrorist in some
2:12:23foreign land are upset and fearful for
2:12:27their life because of her words no I I
2:12:29would say two things Congressman first
2:12:31first of all and I think it's critically
2:12:32important so is this a correct
2:12:34decision if I if I may respond respond
2:12:37to that one first and then I'll let you
2:12:39go ahead and opine on the other was this
2:12:40a correct decision yeah I believe that
2:12:43was a correct decision based on what may
2:12:45I may I answer um first thing briefly I
2:12:48only have five minutes well I'll I'll
2:12:50use as little of your five minutes I can
2:12:51to give a full answer um first in in
2:12:54terms of this hearing and particularly
2:12:56relevant to this hearing nothing in this
2:12:58decision was about Free Speech she had
2:13:02my entire time as president and I have
2:13:03every reason to believe my successor
2:13:05would say the same thing an open
2:13:06invitation to speak on campus so this
2:13:08was not about free speech so it was just
2:13:10about honoring her Free Speech it was
2:13:12about honoring the same way so you
2:13:14didn't want to honor her Free
2:13:15Speech not protects women I I Her speech
2:13:20about women
2:13:21is admirable and was the reason in large
2:13:24part for the original invitation there
2:13:26was there was speech that specifically
2:13:29said that specifically said that Islam
2:13:31should be crushed and when she was asked
2:13:35when she this is on the record when she
2:13:36was asked you mean radical Islam you
2:13:38don't mean all Islam she said no I mean
2:13:40all Islam this is a direct response to
2:13:43that question it must be crushed and
2:13:45something new built on its level if
2:13:47someone had said that about Christianity
2:13:50if someone had said that about Judaism
2:13:51that is someone who would not have been
2:13:53honored by brandise University would
2:13:55they have been free to speak absolutely
2:13:58so so I assume since you pulled away her
2:14:00doctrate you invited her back to give
2:14:03lectures on a regular basis right did
2:14:05that publicly and did that personally
2:14:07and privately so she did she felt
2:14:09welcome to do that I I can't say whether
2:14:12she felt welcome I can so did she feel
2:14:14welcome from you Mr she did in fact not
2:14:16come to campus for a public event she
2:14:18did come to campus subsequently for
2:14:20events uh program at the business school
2:14:23but she had a standing invitation that
2:14:25so do you not see what you did had a
2:14:27chilling effect on her Free Speech you
2:14:29know she's out there actually I would
2:14:30put it I would put it in the same
2:14:32category Congressman as a I know you
2:14:34would but I I wouldn't put it in the
2:14:36same category as what go ahead I'll let
2:14:37you finish all right a a university um a
2:14:40uh a faith-based university that said
2:14:43that although students are free to
2:14:44express Pro uh Choice views we will not
2:14:48give an honorary degree to someone who
2:14:50is an ad so are you saying that what you
2:14:53should do is
2:14:58actually I'll yield back time place and
2:15:02bner I may not be the only one in the
2:15:05room who wanted to hear how that
2:15:06sentence so much for free
2:15:10speech and you all know Mr Meadows is my
2:15:12best friend in Congress so uh uh the the
2:15:15gentleman from Maryland the professor is
2:15:17recognized Mr chairman thank you for
2:15:20convening this Most Fascinating hearing
2:15:22that I've experienced in my six months
2:15:24in Congress so I appreciate you're very
2:15:26much doing it I want to give a quick
2:15:28shout out to Taylor dumpson who is an
2:15:30American University where I've been a
2:15:32professor of constitutional law for the
2:15:33last 27 years so uh you guys have
2:15:37entered my world of constitutional law
2:15:39in the First Amendment so I could be
2:15:40here for hours with you but I've I've
2:15:43boiled it down to four questions I'm
2:15:44going to try to get them all out direct
2:15:46them to specific people and if you would
2:15:47take notes if you would and give an
2:15:49answer back and maybe
2:15:51follow up if I can I tell my students at
2:15:53law school there's only two things you
2:15:55have to fear the Socratic method and the
2:15:57platonic relationship you got to do it
2:15:59on um all right let's start with this uh
2:16:02Free Speech uh is like an apple
2:16:05everybody wants to take just one bite
2:16:06out of it somebody doesn't like leftwing
2:16:08speech take a bite somebody doesn't like
2:16:10right-wing speech take a bite somebody
2:16:11doesn't like naden stren's eloquent
2:16:14defense of pornography take a bite some
2:16:16people don't like anti-p pornography
2:16:18speech and so on at the end there's
2:16:19nothing left to the Apple if you're not
2:16:20will willing to stand up for the whole
2:16:22thing we Devour the entire thing
2:16:24question for you miss trosen um at a
2:16:27time when freedom of speech is under
2:16:30attack at the highest levels of the
2:16:31government the media is being demonized
2:16:33as the enemy of the people uh press
2:16:36conferences are being carefully
2:16:37micromanaged video being shut down
2:16:40Washington Post New York Times kicked
2:16:41out of the Press Room and so on how do
2:16:44we overcome the negative messages that
2:16:46are being sent about free speech at the
2:16:48highest levels of government so young
2:16:50people understand as Congressman Meto
2:16:52said as others have said this is really
2:16:53who we are number one number two um this
2:16:56is for uh for Professor
2:16:59Laurence um speech exists in a context
2:17:03of power for example um in Congress for
2:17:07decades before the Civil War there was a
2:17:08gag rule you couldn't mention slavery
2:17:11because of the power of the pro-slavery
2:17:13delegations it could not be mentioned on
2:17:15the floor of Congress that was one of
2:17:17the things that precipitated um the
2:17:19Civil War even today uh it's a wonderful
2:17:21panel but four of you have been chosen
2:17:23by the majority under our rules and one
2:17:25of you has been invited by the minority
2:17:27so speech always exists in the context
2:17:29of a set of complex power relationships
2:17:31now in the 1960s and 70s tens of
2:17:34thousands of people were suspended
2:17:36expelled or otherwise disciplined uh in
2:17:38anti-vietnam war protest from campuses
2:17:40their speech that there was an effort to
2:17:42drive their speech off of Campus when I
2:17:44was in college in the 1980s we saw
2:17:47thousands of people disciplined for
2:17:48protesting the universities and
2:17:50corporate complicity with apartheid
2:17:52South Africa the speech codes that were
2:17:54used at that time then were dusted off
2:17:57to make life miserable for right-wing
2:18:00activists like Mr Shapiro and so on now
2:18:02my question is a serious question which
2:18:04is is there an effort across partisan
2:18:06lines Left Right lines to come up with a
2:18:09model speech code that every University
2:18:12and college could adopt that everybody
2:18:14would support universally okay so Mr
2:18:16Lawrence that's for you number three um
2:18:18and maybe I'll address this one to Mr
2:18:20Zimmerman and Mr Shapiro um are your
2:18:23concerns about free speech Just for
2:18:25public universities like Berkeley or the
2:18:27University of Wisconsin or do they apply
2:18:29to private universities too like Yale
2:18:31and Harvard and Liberty Baptist or
2:18:34Liberty University in Virginia
2:18:36Georgetown which has uh kicked off
2:18:38pro-choice speakers and shut down a gay
2:18:41student group at one point Catholic
2:18:43University which has kicked off of
2:18:45Campus uh speakers defending pro-choice
2:18:48and then I looked at um Liberty
2:18:50University for example says that profane
2:18:52language is not permitted you're
2:18:54punished by a $250 fine and you got to
2:18:56do 18 hours of community service if your
2:18:58speech is deemed profane any derogatory
2:19:01comments of a sexual or religious or
2:19:03racial nature will not be tolerated also
2:19:06occasion for discipline Bob Jones
2:19:08University which says there's to be no
2:19:11proing on Campus based on Calvinism or
2:19:15arminianism whatever that might be um
2:19:18and um other use of profanity or
2:19:21euphemisms will be occasion for
2:19:23discipline euphemisms are against the
2:19:25rules there so should we be equally
2:19:27concerned about private universities
2:19:29that have a religious Heritage like Bob
2:19:31Jones Liberty Yale American University
2:19:33which has a Methodist origin or are we
2:19:35just concerned about the public
2:19:36universities so leave that one for you
2:19:38and fine uh finally um fourth question
2:19:42for Mr Corolla um The Lost great fine
2:19:46art of heckling in America if you go
2:19:48back and read the Lincoln Douglas
2:19:49debates there was lots of heckling but
2:19:51they would interject something and they
2:19:53would wait for an answer and Lincoln and
2:19:54Douglas Incorporated it into the debate
2:19:57today heckling is all about getting a
2:19:58bull hord and shouting somebody down
2:20:00which is stupid I mean that's just a
2:20:02blunder of this generation if that's
2:20:04what they're doing can we restore an art
2:20:06of heckling that allows some reasonable
2:20:08interchange between the audience and the
2:20:10speaker uh without shutting down speech
2:20:13on campus there we go Mr J to you it's a
2:20:16great it's a great approach five
2:20:18questions four questions in five minutes
2:20:19now you get another five minutes for
2:20:21them to respond you you've been very
2:20:22liberal Mr chairman very liberal today
2:20:24so was was I supposed to make fun of
2:20:26your hair during that
2:20:28or I don't know if you're asking me to
2:20:32Heckle perhaps Professor dryfus could
2:20:35weigh in on this one
2:20:38okay I think you got the answer to the
2:20:40fourth question right
2:20:43there uh Professor Raskin I thought this
2:20:45was going to be a take-home exam but I'm
2:20:47happy to answer it orally now uh you I
2:20:50was I was going to quote the title of
2:20:51nat Hof's book free speech for me but
2:20:55not for thee how the left and right in
2:20:57America are constantly censoring each
2:20:59other so I've found it very helpful in
2:21:01my education and my advocacy on Free
2:21:04Speech to always give an example that
2:21:07will bother that person if you hate the
2:21:10media for this reason because they're
2:21:12giving this message that you disagree
2:21:14with and you therefore think government
2:21:15should have the power to censor messages
2:21:18offensive to minorities let me give you
2:21:20a counter example where you are in
2:21:23environment where you are considered a
2:21:25minority and your view is a minority
2:21:28View and or the other way around and
2:21:30therefore it can be subject to
2:21:31censorship unfortunately given the
2:21:34diversity of environments we have
2:21:36including some of the private
2:21:37universities that you cited I can give
2:21:39you an example where for one campus
2:21:42where a perspective a is censored
2:21:44there's another campus where perspective
2:21:47antia is censored and that's why we have
2:21:49to maintain neutrality but I think as an
2:21:52educator we have to give concrete
2:21:54examples the abstraction is not going to
2:21:56be persuasive thank you Professor
2:21:59W can there be a model speech code that
2:22:01everybody will agree on uh I guess
2:22:04that's an easy one the answer almost
2:22:05certainly is no uh can we make an effort
2:22:07in that direction I think the answer
2:22:08there is yes um and it will look
2:22:10something like this uh a overwhelmingly
2:22:13presumption over overwhelmingly strong
2:22:16presumption in favor of protection of
2:22:18free speech certainly on campuses uh of
2:22:20of all kinds for all cumers who belong
2:22:22on those campus that's principle number
2:22:24one principle number two there's a
2:22:25limiting principle that is the kind of
2:22:28thing that Professor s and I have been
2:22:29talking about where you actually have an
2:22:31intent to do harm to threaten to
2:22:33intimidate uh not to confound not to
2:22:35trouble but to actually literally do
2:22:37harm uh and then principle number three
2:22:40is that what is the obligation of a
2:22:42university even in the realm of
2:22:43protected speech uh when it is hateful
2:22:46speech I think those three principles in
2:22:48some form or another are going to form
2:22:50the model of the kind of speech codes
2:22:52that you'll get the broadest consensus
2:22:53that you can the more specific you try
2:22:55to be about this is in and this is out
2:22:57you're going to start making mistakes
2:22:59and that's why virtually every
2:23:00University speech code has been struck
2:23:02down by University by uh by courts Mr
2:23:05Shapiro I think and then Mr Kola yeah I
2:23:08mean as far as the the distinction
2:23:09between public and private uh I do make
2:23:11a very strong distinction between public
2:23:13and private universities when it comes
2:23:15to speech rights because private
2:23:16universities I believe should have the
2:23:18like private business the broadest
2:23:20possible perview to to act in accordance
2:23:22with their values they're not censor
2:23:23speech if they're a private university
2:23:25sure which is why when I went to depal
2:23:27University and they threatened to arrest
2:23:28me I left the campus if they had done
2:23:30that at Cal State LA I would have stayed
2:23:31and been arrested okay Dr J do you agree
2:23:33with that do you think there's a free
2:23:34speech value we should be fighting for
2:23:35in private campuses as well as public
2:23:38absolutely but it's a different kind of
2:23:39free speech right that is the the right
2:23:41to free speech is absolute should
2:23:43absolutely be there because it's a
2:23:45college campus in Co if if we value
2:23:48college education we have to Value
2:23:50Alterna of views if we value the liberal
2:23:52arts we have to Value other people's
2:23:54ideas we can't have meaningful
2:23:55discussion if we only have one side of
2:23:57that discussion but that's different
2:23:58than the state mandating that you have
2:24:01to be able to do
2:24:04that Mr
2:24:08Heckler uh gez I want to talk about my
2:24:11white privilege so
2:24:14badly I graduated North Hollywood High
2:24:16with a 1.7 GPA I could not find a job I
2:24:20walked to a fire station in North
2:24:22Hollywood I was 19 I was living in the
2:24:24garage of my family home my mom was on
2:24:26welfare and food stamps and I said can I
2:24:29get a job as a fireman and they said no
2:24:32because you're not black Hispanic or
2:24:34woman uh we'll see in about seven years
2:24:37and I went to a construction site and
2:24:39dug ditches and picked up garbage for
2:24:41the next seven years I got a letter in
2:24:44the mail sent to my father's house
2:24:46saying your time has come to do the
2:24:48written exam for the LA fire department
2:24:51I took it and I was standing in line and
2:24:54I had a young woman of color standing
2:24:55behind me in line and I said just out of
2:24:57curiosity when did you sign up to become
2:24:59a firan because I did it or person seven
2:25:03years ago and she said
2:25:05Wednesday um that is an example of my
2:25:08white privilege it's I think it's an
2:25:10economic privilege more than it is the
2:25:12color of your skin that being said uh
2:25:15heckling people busting their chops
2:25:17making fun of them is an actual Overture
2:25:22of Love friendship and it's a positive
2:25:26thing my friends I hang out with Jimmy
2:25:28Kimmel and his cousin and many many
2:25:31other comedians Jeff Ross and people of
2:25:33that nature and that's all we do and the
2:25:35day that stops that'll be the day I know
2:25:37they don't like me anymore now obviously
2:25:41doing it to strangers on campus is a
2:25:44different story but lightening the mood
2:25:48a little bit and lightening up a a
2:25:50little bit in general when people you
2:25:53know I I'm an atheist and I go out and
2:25:55do things with uh Dennis Prager he's a
2:25:59devout Jew he loves it when I make Jew
2:26:01jokes I love it when he makes atheist
2:26:04jokes and that's how we know that we're
2:26:07friends and I I'd say the same for uh
2:26:09Ben Shapiro as well although I don't
2:26:12know if he loves it when I make the
2:26:13Jewish jokes no it's fine with me okay
2:26:16you guys you guys are clearly not
2:26:17running for congress
2:26:23thank you very much for your testimony
2:26:24all of you I yield back Mr chairman
2:26:27thank you Professor we now recognize the
2:26:28gentleman from Wisconsin Mr gr yeah just
2:26:31one quick comment for Mr zma before I uh
2:26:34ask him a question in your testimony you
2:26:36said higher education has been and
2:26:38Remains the single best way for
2:26:39individuals to dramatically improve
2:26:41their socioeconomic status there's a
2:26:43little bit of snobbery there I don't
2:26:45like but the point I'll make is at least
2:26:47in my district and I think around the
2:26:48country we have a lot a lot of young
2:26:50people taking this stuff to heart and
2:26:53they wind up graduating from an
2:26:54institution like yours with 50 or
2:26:57$60,000 in debt they really do not find
2:27:00a way to move up economically and they
2:27:02wind up having to go back to a tech
2:27:04school or um a trade school which are
2:27:07very wonderful when they're 39 or 40 and
2:27:09their whole life is delayed and I I want
2:27:11you to be conscious of this kind of
2:27:14unqualified worship of a of all forms of
2:27:17secondary education because I think it
2:27:19is leting a lot of people to a lot of
2:27:21trouble but I I will um ask you a
2:27:24question in Evergreen
2:27:26University um I don't know how many
2:27:28professors you have there
2:27:30but could you tell me about how many
2:27:32professors you have and how many you
2:27:33thinks they voted for Trump in the last
2:27:36election full-time part-time we have uh
2:27:40about 180 probably I have not a clue of
2:27:43who they voted for you never talk about
2:27:46politics with any of the people hanging
2:27:47around that campus uh I we certainly
2:27:51talk politics occasionally I suspect not
2:27:53many of them voted for Trump but I I
2:27:55couldn't tell you the you can't guess
2:27:57any your buddies say they voted for
2:27:59Trump and all the times you talk uh
2:28:00there are a couple of people on campus
2:28:01who have but um not very many I suspect
2:28:04not very many uh Mr ston NYU Law School
2:28:07I'm going to give you the same question
2:28:08New York law school uh again I'll go go
2:28:10to surveys that reflect that the
2:28:13overwhelming majority of Faculty members
2:28:17are um Democrats and have given voted
2:28:20for and given money to Democrats and I
2:28:23think this is a serious problem because
2:28:25when we talk about diversity it should
2:28:28include ideological diversity as well as
2:28:31other kinds of diversity and I'm very
2:28:34supportive of a number of initiatives
2:28:36that have been started in the recent
2:28:37past to address this problem uh one of
2:28:40which is called the heterodox Academy
2:28:42which was spearheaded by Jonathan height
2:28:44who does teach at uh NYU and there's a
2:28:47similar project uh that's done to get
2:28:50called the Madison project that's done
2:28:53together by Cornell West
2:28:55African-American extremely liberal some
2:28:57would say radical Professor together
2:28:59with Robert George a conservative uh
2:29:02white male Princeton Professor but all
2:29:05of us agree that education suffers when
2:29:08we have uh too much agreement too much
2:29:12political Orthodoxy in any direction
2:29:15right do do how many how many professors
2:29:17do you know I mean you guys I assume on
2:29:20unlike uh apparently Evergreen you must
2:29:22talk about who you vote for how many do
2:29:24you know on a personal level who voted
2:29:26for Trump and and in your facult I you
2:29:28know I didn't actually ask people for
2:29:31whom they voted but my educ would be
2:29:34respecting privacy my educated guests
2:29:36would be extremely few uh extremely few
2:29:41but here's something sad I do know
2:29:43people who privately supported uh Donald
2:29:47Trump but are embarrassed to say that
2:29:49they voted for him okay so they're kind
2:29:50of muzzled okay and my question for Mr
2:29:53coroll and I'm sorry what you had to go
2:29:55through the Prejudice in our country but
2:29:57um I landed on my
2:30:01wallet um do you believe part of the
2:30:04problem here is it's easy to hate people
2:30:08and demonize people if you don't know
2:30:11any people like that and maybe one of
2:30:13the reasons why we seem to have
2:30:15difficulty with free speech on college
2:30:17campuses the way you wouldn't have
2:30:19difficulty in other American
2:30:21institutions um is because some of the
2:30:25faculty members on college campuses they
2:30:27can spend you know extensive periods of
2:30:30time without talking to anybody who has
2:30:32political opinions significantly
2:30:34different than their own is that part of
2:30:36the problem oh absolutely and it's I'm
2:30:40I'm sort of bewildered by it because uh
2:30:43knowing guys like uh Dennis Prager and
2:30:46Ben Shapiro knowing them to be great
2:30:49guys or even some times seeing what
2:30:51happens when Dr Drew says something and
2:30:54the Twitter sphere goes ballistic and
2:30:56what a talking about what a bad person
2:30:58is or what have you yeah when you get to
2:31:01know almost anybody you look at them as
2:31:04a person rather than an idea and we need
2:31:07to look at people as human beings not
2:31:10ideas or representatives of ideas and it
2:31:14always helps when you're exposed I I
2:31:17personally this may sound like a side
2:31:20bar but I grew up playing football I
2:31:21played 10 years organized football I
2:31:23played with every different kind of
2:31:25human being except the Jews actually
2:31:27been females maybe the holder females
2:31:30yeah yeah the punter yeah they cheered
2:31:32yeah it was awesome um so I got exposed
2:31:36everyone and realized that everyone who
2:31:37came from every different neighborhood
2:31:39was you know there for one reason and
2:31:41that was trying to trying to win a game
2:31:43and I think it helped a lot in my view
2:31:45view of life and then later on when I
2:31:47stepped on a construction site I got the
2:31:49same thing
2:31:50again so I do feel like surrounding
2:31:52yourself with diversity and ideas as
2:31:56well as skin color is a good thing okay
2:31:58Mr shapir I'm going to ask you to follow
2:32:00up on that I uh just you you hear things
2:32:02in this job people come up to you and I
2:32:04do believe there are certainly uh
2:32:06departments on major American campuses
2:32:09in which you can spend you know all day
2:32:12walking up the the hallways where the
2:32:14faculty work and and never be exposed to
2:32:18anybody who voted
2:32:20for a candidate that about half of half
2:32:23Americans populist did which is kind of
2:32:25amazing that you find
2:32:28such you know lack of diversity oh yeah
2:32:31and anywhere and I I wondered if one of
2:32:33the reasons for the left's
2:32:35rage is because they sometimes do go to
2:32:38work on college campuses and they don't
2:32:41have any friends who even voted for
2:32:44somebody who about half the American
2:32:46public voted for which is hard to
2:32:47believe there's anywhere in society that
2:32:49that
2:32:50kind of cloistered but I I'm afraid on
2:32:52College Camp I wonder if that's one of
2:32:54the reasons why you have this
2:32:56hatred
2:32:58for say people who believe in you know
2:33:01more more conservative half of the
2:33:03American populace I think you do have
2:33:05some leftist professors who attempt to
2:33:07you know be uh open to other ideas I
2:33:09mean lonni guier was one of my
2:33:10professors at Harvard Law School and she
2:33:12ended up writing a job recommendation
2:33:13for me because we got along so well and
2:33:15she's very far to the left but that's
2:33:17that's more uh a rarity than it than it
2:33:19is the the common thread I mean even if
2:33:22you put aside president Trump the fact
2:33:24is that that I think the polls showed
2:33:25that well under 10% of the of the
2:33:28faculty at Ivy League schools voted for
2:33:30Romney in 2012 so I mean this has been
2:33:32very consistent and this is why I think
2:33:34you are seeing some of the violence when
2:33:35I spoke at Cal State LA you actually saw
2:33:38uh the professors calling me a member of
2:33:39the KKK uh before I got there and so
2:33:41most of the students had no clue who I
2:33:42was but they were perfectly willing to
2:33:44go out and protest and and beat people
2:33:45up um Mr Zimmerman are are are you doing
2:33:49any I assume your campus I mean
2:33:51Evergreen it's got a kind of a
2:33:53reputation uh are you doing anything to
2:33:57we we'll come back to that we got we got
2:33:58to move on I think the gentleman uh and
2:34:00I apologize we're trying to give
2:34:01everyone a little extra time but we
2:34:02can't go too much longer the gentleman
2:34:04from Florida is recognized well thank
2:34:06you Mr chairman and and thanks to the
2:34:07witnesses um uh Ben Shapiro who came up
2:34:12with the thug life Ben
2:34:13Shapiro I have no idea um what me I have
2:34:18never listened to a a complete rap song
2:34:20in my entire life it's uh it's it's it's
2:34:23funny and it's it's well done it has
2:34:24some of your greatest hits let me ask
2:34:26you you mentioned the the professors
2:34:28obviously the professors overwhelmingly
2:34:30are on the left some are fair and one to
2:34:33do some are more pushing ideology but I
2:34:35wonder I see some of the things that
2:34:37you've dealt with others I mean is it
2:34:39the professors doing this or are these
2:34:41students just predisposed to do this it
2:34:43seems like there's a lot of radical
2:34:44students anyways and a lot of them are
2:34:46kind of going to do this even if the
2:34:48professors weren't egging them on is
2:34:50that true I think there are three groups
2:34:51I think there there are usually a couple
2:34:53of radical professors who egg them on
2:34:54not the entire left faculty because that
2:34:56would be pretty much everyone but like a
2:34:57couple of radical professors who decide
2:34:59that they they think it's worthwhile for
2:35:00there to be massive protests uh some
2:35:02student organizers and then very often
2:35:05lately you've been seeing people bust in
2:35:06from the outside so at Berkeley you saw
2:35:08people being coming in from antifa and
2:35:10integrating with the with the Berkeley
2:35:12student population and then and then
2:35:14doing acts of violence at Cal State LA
2:35:16there were a couple of bus loads of
2:35:17people who were bused in so it's really
2:35:18those three groups I think when you're
2:35:20um dealing with the anti-Semitism and
2:35:22anti-israel uh views on campuses is that
2:35:25faculty driven or is that outside the
2:35:28university well I mean I I haven't dealt
2:35:29with that as much uh because I think
2:35:31that in the last couple of years most of
2:35:33the opposition has been coming from uh
2:35:35the black lives matter movement uh from
2:35:38the uh from The Bernie Sanders socialist
2:35:40wing of the democratic party uh it
2:35:42hasn't been coming too much from the
2:35:43Israel S I don't speak about the Israel
2:35:44stuff all that often on campus um but I
2:35:46mean the BDS I know for a lot of Jewish
2:35:48students on campus it's very
2:35:49uncomfortable because there are a lot of
2:35:51professors who support boycott
2:35:52divestment sanctions from Israel uh and
2:35:55activate their students to do the same
2:35:57so just from a conservative perspective
2:35:59uh we look at some of what's going on on
2:36:01college campuses and and we don't
2:36:02necessarily like it but you know we
2:36:04don't really want government involved in
2:36:05a lot of this anyways but on the other
2:36:06hand people will point out is we're
2:36:08funding these universities so the T
2:36:10American taxpayer is underwriting a lot
2:36:12of this stuff so is there a role for
2:36:16government given that we're funding it
2:36:18or is it just type the thing that you
2:36:19know we fund it and we still got to just
2:36:21keep our hands off if we weren't funding
2:36:22it then I would think that there would
2:36:23not be a role for the federal government
2:36:25at all but given I mean a lot of money
2:36:27is going to these universities yes I
2:36:28mean the Wisconsin law that's been
2:36:30discussed uh repeatedly has been I think
2:36:32a little bit unfairly malign because
2:36:34people are refusing to read the end of
2:36:35the phrase in the law which is that this
2:36:36is speech that interferes with the
2:36:38speech of others meaning the if you have
2:36:40administrators who are basically handing
2:36:42a heckler's veto to people who are
2:36:43standing up in front of other speakers
2:36:45and then attempting to block it that's
2:36:46not actually free speech that's trespass
2:36:48so I don't know that you need another
2:36:50piece of legislation I think you do need
2:36:51enforcement of existing law uh that that
2:36:54exists to prevent what is in fact
2:36:56criminal activity and not free speech
2:36:58activity but there's going to have to be
2:37:00some sort of consequences for
2:37:02administrators who don't abide by the
2:37:03current law because what they're doing
2:37:04is they are they are essentially saying
2:37:06we can't shut down the speech but if you
2:37:07go and you make a big fuss then we'll
2:37:09say that in order to shut down the fuss
2:37:10we have to shut down the speech uh and
2:37:12if they continue to do that then I don't
2:37:14see you know why Federal funding should
2:37:16be going to I don't see why my taxpayer
2:37:18dollars should be going to University
2:37:19that bans me because the university
2:37:21refuses to protect my right to free
2:37:23speech that's a good point now you
2:37:25talked about the hierarchy of based on
2:37:28identity in terms of who does and I like
2:37:31a white male would be at the bottom kind
2:37:32of deal but you know how how honest is
2:37:35even that standard applied because like
2:37:36somebody like a Justice Clarence Thomas
2:37:39who obviously has a very compelling
2:37:40background how would he be received at
2:37:43these universities in terms of his story
2:37:45given that he's a constitutional
2:37:46originalist Jason Riley from The Wall
2:37:48Street Journal I mean it's obviously
2:37:51it's the intersectionality and that
2:37:52philosophy is a standin for hardcore
2:37:54leftism and it's just a way of using
2:37:56multiculturalism as the entree to to
2:37:58leftist points of view it isn't actually
2:38:01as you say if if Clarence Thomas says
2:38:03something nobody on the left is going to
2:38:04say well you know he suffered as a black
2:38:06man so his perspective is more valuable
2:38:08than Joe Biden's perspective on a
2:38:09particular issue you're not going to
2:38:10hear anyone on the left ever say
2:38:12that Cora thanks for coming um thank you
2:38:16man with the tan from Florida
2:38:19try my best you don't have to recognize
2:38:21him as the man from Florida we can all
2:38:24see where he hails from yeah no well
2:38:27well why appreciate that it's hot there
2:38:28we don't have the uh the temperate
2:38:30climate that you guys have in La so um
2:38:33it's it's uh 95 and in and heating right
2:38:35now well it's it's dry but there a lot
2:38:37of blo hards there in LA so there's a
2:38:40lot of hot wind blowing around so what
2:38:42do you I mean you've kind of come here
2:38:44we appreciate it um you know you look at
2:38:47this experience what how do you View
2:38:49kind of what goes on in Washington as
2:38:51potentially being able to to help stand
2:38:53up for free speech because you know we
2:38:55get involved in things a lot of times we
2:38:56make it
2:38:58worse um you know I I've I I I hosted a
2:39:03show called love line for over a decade
2:39:06and I had a very unique perspective
2:39:09because I was able to talk to troubled
2:39:12kids
2:39:14teenagers two hours a night for a decade
2:39:17and I really got to learn
2:39:20something about young people and how
2:39:22they work and what works and what
2:39:25doesn't work and you know people say
2:39:27well you're not a professor you never
2:39:28read a book you never went to college
2:39:30how are you an expert on this and I say
2:39:33well I'm a journeyman carpenter as well
2:39:35I've never read a book on carpentry and
2:39:37who would you like to build your house
2:39:39someone who read a book on it or someone
2:39:40who just did it every day for over a
2:39:43decade and I learned that all of these
2:39:46problems that we're talking about free
2:39:48speech
2:39:49discrimination hatred toward other
2:39:51people and drug addiction violence crime
2:39:55it all stems from the family and when
2:39:58the family is intact much of this stuff
2:40:01just goes away you don't have to
2:40:03legislate it away it just goes away
2:40:05because people are brought up in intact
2:40:08families with decent caring parents
2:40:10whatever their color whatever their
2:40:11background is and then they produce
2:40:13little decent individuals who go off to
2:40:16college or a job place of work and they
2:40:19don't need to be coached up and they
2:40:21don't need to be legislated and they
2:40:22don't need to be bloviated by people
2:40:24like us they grew up in an intact family
2:40:27so my feeling is all the stuff we're
2:40:29talking about is at the outside of the
2:40:32rim The Hub is the family and the
2:40:36discussions should center around the
2:40:38family and who is creating these people
2:40:41who think it'd be a good idea to take a
2:40:43baseball bat to the window of a
2:40:45Starbucks in their Community I think
2:40:48that's well put and if we could could
2:40:50deal with that core the Free Speech
2:40:52stuff and a whole host of other problems
2:40:55would would go and that's better than
2:40:56any tax bill or anything else we could
2:40:58be doing and obviously it's not going to
2:41:00be government's role per se it's a
2:41:01societal thing but Mr chairman thanks
2:41:03for your leadership on this issue well
2:41:05said uh to our panel my goal was 12
2:41:07o'clock we're going to be pretty close I
2:41:09may go a few minutes after um if if
2:41:11that's okay with everyone we have uh two
2:41:13others and then maybe a a couple other
2:41:15questions from the ranking member myself
2:41:17to close things out Mr Heist from George
2:41:19is recognized thank you very much Mr
2:41:21chairman I appreciate you allowing me to
2:41:23be a part of this uh hearing today uh Mr
2:41:27shapir I feel for you and I met just
2:41:31recently with a group of Jewish students
2:41:33who had experienced a great deal of uh
2:41:37very difficult from lack of free speech
2:41:39to harassment and all sorts of things on
2:41:41the various college campuses that they
2:41:44represent I am also an Evangelical
2:41:46Christian and I've seen it on the other
2:41:48side as well well and have been in fact
2:41:51on the front line of this for a long
2:41:53long time where Christian students are
2:41:55disallowed to even share their faith
2:41:57they're restricted to free speech zones
2:41:59where Christian organizations are kicked
2:42:01off campuses uh or even forced to allow
2:42:06non-christians to take leadership roles
2:42:08in the Christian organizations like how
2:42:10backwards can this possibly be and in
2:42:13many instances a Christian pers
2:42:15perspective is even looked upon as hate
2:42:17speech is absolutely abolutely
2:42:19astounding to me where this is going um
2:42:23and I want to transition M straon to you
2:42:25I appreciate you being here as well are
2:42:27you familiar with implicit bias testing
2:42:30yes okay this is intended to detect
2:42:32biases or prejudices from individuals by
2:42:36various tests some colleges are actually
2:42:39using these tests now to force those who
2:42:43fail the test to be cured of their
2:42:47biases prejudice whatever it may be in
2:42:51essence creating on
2:42:53campuses thought
2:42:55police are you you're aware of this I
2:42:58see by your reaction uh I'm I'm I'm
2:43:01shocked uh and of course I am against
2:43:04creating thought crimes uh I am
2:43:07completely in favor of information I've
2:43:10taken one of those implicit bias tests
2:43:12and it's very interesting so if it's
2:43:14presented to you as a way to expand your
2:43:17horizons about subconscious or
2:43:20semiconscious uh assumptions and
2:43:22stereotypes to which all of us are prone
2:43:25uh many atheists have negative
2:43:27stereotypes about evangelicals and VI
2:43:30Versa we all have those but we should
2:43:32overcome them through education not
2:43:34through indoctrination well and they're
2:43:35not necessarily wrong one video or
2:43:37another we've got to accept the fact
2:43:39that you're different from I am and I'm
2:43:40different from you and it's okay
2:43:41absolutely we can disagree so so a
2:43:43college really has no business trying to
2:43:45cure people absolutely of their
2:43:48background what they a violation of
2:43:50everything the First Amendment stands
2:43:52for everything that academic absolutely
2:43:54let me kind of go on what are some of
2:43:56the uh biases that are uh identified as
2:43:59needing to be cured are you aware of
2:44:01that I'm sorry all right well let's
2:44:03let's go on I I don't have time to dig
2:44:05into this there's so much more to deal
2:44:07with but would would you not agree that
2:44:09when a university or college whatever
2:44:11starts branding people as hateful as
2:44:15bigots as politically incorrect as
2:44:17whatever and then creating an e to cure
2:44:19them of those uh
2:44:22deficiencies the school is in itself
2:44:24creating a thought police environment
2:44:27that is and it's also something that
2:44:29that violates equality principles right
2:44:32we're talking about trying to create
2:44:33campuses where everybody feels welcome
2:44:36and included in part of the community
2:44:38and to stigmatize people because of
2:44:41their beliefs or their ideas is as
2:44:44offensive to equality and Free Speech
2:44:46principles as stigmatizing people
2:44:48because of the color of their skin not
2:44:49to mention that it's also unamerican and
2:44:51unconstitutional for and bad education
2:44:54and ineffective you're not if let's
2:44:57assume the worst let's assume somebody
2:44:58is a convinced hate Monger you're not
2:45:01likely to dissuade that person from uh
2:45:04discriminatory views by treating that
2:45:07person as an outcast that's the least
2:45:09effective way to persuade that person to
2:45:11change his ideas absolutely I appreciate
2:45:14what you said a while ago too about uh
2:45:16the the vast majority of professors or
2:45:20democrat or left leaning whatever it may
2:45:22be while we were in fact sitting here I
2:45:25did a quick search it's not from my
2:45:26state the University of Georgia profs
2:45:28are 12 to1 Democrat over Republicans I
2:45:32think from what you're sharing and from
2:45:33my experience that's probably fairly
2:45:35consistent across the country I can't
2:45:37fully explain it but it does have an
2:45:40impact on the overall culture that is
2:45:42created and the resistance towards those
2:45:45who disagree with a political and I'm
2:45:48sure you and I would make the same
2:45:50negative conclusion if it was skewed the
2:45:52other way right absolutely um now we've
2:45:56got these free or these speech codes in
2:45:59place has been identified already a lot
2:46:02about this uh we have Court decisions
2:46:05that as one of you mentioned a while ago
2:46:08the Court decisions overwhelmingly have
2:46:10ruled against the majority of the speech
2:46:12codes in universities and yet to this
2:46:15day about 40% of our colleges still have
2:46:19speech codes in place against what has
2:46:23been determined by the rule of law and
2:46:25and why is that you know uh law is not
2:46:30self-enforcing the Constitution is not
2:46:32self- enforcing we still have segregated
2:46:35schools all these decades after Brown
2:46:37versus Board of Education and that's why
2:46:39it's so important for organizations like
2:46:41the ACLU fire the foundation for
2:46:43individual rights and education to be
2:46:45able to bring lawsuits to actually
2:46:47enforce princi principles I mean the
2:46:50examples of using so-called uh time time
2:46:53place and manner restrictions as a
2:46:55pretext for suppressing ideas uh that's
2:46:58illegal and unconstitutional but you
2:46:59have to bring a lawsuit in order to
2:47:01vindicate that position and if I may say
2:47:04Congressman just last uh a couple of
2:47:07weeks ago the United States Supreme
2:47:09Court unanimously said speech that
2:47:12demeans on the basis of race ethnicity
2:47:14gender religion age disability or any
2:47:16other similar ground is hateful but the
2:47:18proud outest boast of our Free Speech
2:47:20jurist Prudence is that we protect the
2:47:23freedom to express the thought we hate
2:47:25if only we could have the same unanimity
2:47:28in society as a whole as those very
2:47:31ideologically diverse justices have on
2:47:34that Cornerstone principle Mr chairman
2:47:37I'm not going any further because I know
2:47:38I'm not even a part of the subcommittee
2:47:40and again I appreciate you letting me be
2:47:41part of it I've got a lot more to cover
2:47:43though but where this is going with a
2:47:45clear distinction between uh one
2:47:48viewpoint versus another creating a
2:47:50culture of intimidation and silencing a
2:47:53particular Viewpoint has got to be dealt
2:47:54with and I thank you for leading this
2:47:56here bet I thank the gentlemen and now
2:47:58recognize the U wait a minute now
2:48:00recognize the second tan man from
2:48:03Florida Mr Rooney is recognized Mr
2:48:06chairman thank you very much for the
2:48:08opportunity to make a few comments about
2:48:09Free Speech here and for your taking the
2:48:11uh the liberty of highlighting the
2:48:14problems that we face under the guise of
2:48:16protecting students the freedom to
2:48:18express views not deemed acceptable to
2:48:20an intolerant judgmental Elite is being
2:48:23attacked and denounced by students
2:48:25professors and occasionally
2:48:27administrators these people have the
2:48:29intellectual arrogance to think they
2:48:30should decide for all of us which ideas
2:48:33are to be heard and which are not this
2:48:35to me reeks of
2:48:36totalitarianism which as we all know
2:48:38Creeps in gradually and until it takes
2:48:42root in the road to serfdom Frederick
2:48:44Hayek described how the threat of
2:48:46totalitarianism in Europe in the 1930s
2:48:48was foreshadowed by a society moving
2:48:51away from the basic ideas on which
2:48:53European civilization had been built
2:48:56this behavior in the United States today
2:48:58contradicts the original concept of what
2:49:00a university should be and how it
2:49:02originated in its medieval Beginnings as
2:49:04a ven as venues for promoting the free
2:49:07exchange and rigorous debate colleges
2:49:09use many different methods to suppress
2:49:11Free Speech one such example are these
2:49:14Free Speech zones which have been talked
2:49:16about here on campus to to me the mere
2:49:19idea of a free speech zone is wholly
2:49:22incompatible with the with the
2:49:23Constitution of the United
2:49:25States and it turns The Words Free
2:49:28Speech into a gross oxymoron this
2:49:31transforms an absolute truth a right
2:49:33guaranteed under our constitution into a
2:49:35negotiable transient morsel of policy I
2:49:39wonder which of our constitutional
2:49:40rights and Liberties will be next an
2:49:43ironic case at Kellogg Community College
2:49:45in Michigan you can't make this stuff up
2:49:48students were arrested for handing out
2:49:49copies of the United States Constitution
2:49:52without the administration's permission
2:49:55how incredible is this in their greatest
2:49:58hopes Marx and lenen couldn't have been
2:49:59bold enough to try this cancellation of
2:50:02conservative speakers and events on
2:50:04campus has become another method for
2:50:06constraining Freedom has been talked
2:50:07about here following protest and
2:50:10sometimes riotous Behavior by the
2:50:11scripted bias students and faculty many
2:50:14administrators and boards and trustees
2:50:16seem to prefer acquiescence in political
2:50:19correctness instead of Confrontation
2:50:22willing to accept the connected erosion
2:50:25of freedom in 2014 protest by leftist
2:50:29students at Rutgers caused former
2:50:30Secretary of State rice to cancel a
2:50:33commencement speech this is an
2:50:35individual who rose up from Desperate
2:50:37circumstances with a life of persistence
2:50:39and achievement like none other Ki is
2:50:41certainly the American dream this year
2:50:43again violent student riots at Berkeley
2:50:46caused the school to cancel a speech by
2:50:48the conservative uh uh writer and
2:50:50speaker an couter so much for colleges
2:50:53fostering an environment of free speech
2:50:55further many college professors seek to
2:50:57indoctrinate and discourage free debate
2:50:59in class much has been written about
2:51:01this leading to something called group
2:51:03think the desire for
2:51:05Conformity replaces rational thought and
2:51:09conservative opinions are routinely
2:51:10suppressed as has been talked about in
2:51:12this hearing today this lack of
2:51:13ideological diversity in Academia
2:51:15undermines the free exchange of ideas
2:51:17and it's no wonder that so much has been
2:51:19written about the lack of critical
2:51:20thinking of younger critical thinking
2:51:22skills of younger Americans colleges and
2:51:25universities that refuse to respect and
2:51:28enforce our laws in the Constitution
2:51:30should not be subsidized by the United
2:51:32States of America our taxpayers should
2:51:35not have to pay for infringements
2:51:37against our constitution if schools want
2:51:39to go at alone free of taxpayer money
2:51:42they can and should do whatever they
2:51:43want to do and many's been said that
2:51:45about here today but schools that take
2:51:47our taxpayer money should follow the
2:51:49Constitution and be thankful that we
2:51:51have it not all colleges and
2:51:53universities have succumb to this
2:51:54political correctness we know that Mitch
2:51:56danels made a very strong statement in
2:51:582015 at Purdue to protect academic
2:52:01freedom and individual liberty John
2:52:02Ellison at the University of Chicago not
2:52:05exactly known as a conservative Bastion
2:52:07did the same thing denouncing uh these
2:52:10Free Speech zones and things like that
2:52:12and I'd like to also finish with the
2:52:13idea that the real world the one where
2:52:16us Carpenter apprentices and journeyman
2:52:18Carpenters Grow Up by the way uh doesn't
2:52:21recognize Free Speech zones colleges and
2:52:24universities that promote them are
2:52:25committing what I consider to be
2:52:27educational
2:52:28malpractice failing to prepare students
2:52:30for a life beyond the Cocoon of Campus
2:52:33higher education should be a platform
2:52:35for the peaceful exchange of ideas and
2:52:37debate and formation where learning
2:52:39comes from having one's belief
2:52:41challenged and having to defend them
2:52:43that's what the original University was
2:52:44about and that's what we need in America
2:52:46if we can get back there then maybe we
2:52:48will find that we have a new generation
2:52:50of critically thinking Americans that
2:52:52can take our country to even greater
2:52:53Heights Mr chairman thank you very much
2:52:55for having me bet I think the gentleman
2:52:57gent lady from Florida has recognized M
2:53:00demings thank you so much Mr chairman
2:53:03and you know we've had a I believe a
2:53:06very robust conversation today about the
2:53:09First Amendment which we know is
2:53:13guaranteed uh by the United States
2:53:16Constitution we've talked about a lot of
2:53:19things but we've also talked about a
2:53:22young
2:53:23woman
2:53:26who was attending American
2:53:29University was elected as president of
2:53:33the student government by her
2:53:36peers and instead of
2:53:39celebrating was the victim of
2:53:43harassment she was
2:53:45threatened victim of cyber bullying in
2:53:49and hate
2:53:50crimes I believe that Taylor dumpson
2:53:54represents
2:53:56thousands of students in this country
2:53:58who were just trying to live the
2:54:00American dream and since one of my
2:54:03colleagues thought it necessary to issue
2:54:05out an apology
2:54:08today I'd like to issue an apology to
2:54:13Taylor
2:54:14dumpson for what she had to endure
2:54:18someone who was doing it right and uh
2:54:21was the victim of hate
2:54:24crimes not just hate speech but hate
2:54:27crimes as investigated by the uh FBI
2:54:31that's my statement Mr chairman and I'd
2:54:33also like to um ask permission to
2:54:37enter uh a unanimous consent to
2:54:40introduce an article uh KCC response to
2:54:43political organizations lawsuit into the
2:54:46record that objection thank you than you
2:54:48so much I yield back I thank the gentle
2:54:50lady just uh we'll close out here with a
2:54:52few questions but first I do want to
2:54:54recognize Miss Taylor dumpson as well um
2:54:57obviously what happened to you on campus
2:54:59is wrong should not be tolerated and
2:55:00it's just disgusting um and but we
2:55:04appreciate you overcoming that and the
2:55:05fact that you're a uh the student
2:55:08student government president someday
2:55:09you're you're going to be sitting up
2:55:10here asking doing the same kind of
2:55:11hearing and and we look forward to those
2:55:13days uh in the in the future as as well
2:55:16um but my guess is at American
2:55:18University they probably had some
2:55:19diversity
2:55:20training they probably had some biased
2:55:23training um so maybe this gets to the
2:55:25point Mr Corolla made earlier it's not
2:55:28all the bias training and diversity and
2:55:30these test kids have to take now or
2:55:32students have to take now um do do you
2:55:35well let me just go to Mr shapir do you
2:55:37think this uh the the bias training is
2:55:39something that is actually helpful uh I
2:55:42don't think it's effective uh I think
2:55:43that in fact it tends to alienate a lot
2:55:45of the people who feel like I'm not a
2:55:47racist why am I being forced to endure
2:55:49the implication that I'm a racist and I
2:55:51have the necessity of undergoing bias
2:55:53training yeah I mean it it it seems to
2:55:55me that that either Americans got their
2:55:56bias training is not any good or it's
2:55:58just just largely probably not people
2:56:01who tie noes around bananas are not
2:56:02going to be dissuaded from doing so by
2:56:04bias training garbage human beings to Mr
2:56:06coro's point right it's a lot more about
2:56:09what kind of um background and belief
2:56:13system they bring to the
2:56:15university I I agree wholeheartedly
2:56:17that's s at home anyone who's been in
2:56:19the corporate world knows you have to
2:56:22have uh sexual harassment training as
2:56:25well and the cases of sexual harassment
2:56:28have probably gone up tenfold since the
2:56:30training began so I don't see any direct
2:56:32line from um training to effective
2:56:37application of it in fact it could be
2:56:39almost a Converse right I I feel it is
2:56:43yes but Mr Cora also talked about the
2:56:45positive impact of actually working
2:56:48together with a diverse group of people
2:56:50and I think that's what we have to do we
2:56:53have to bring people together in
2:56:55education and work and other other uh
2:56:58context you know and it's been my
2:56:59experience some of the some of the the
2:57:01the strongest advocates for left policy
2:57:04and I always use the example one of my
2:57:06good friends is Dennis kenich and you
2:57:09cannot get farther apart than Jim Jordan
2:57:12and Dennis kinich but we have respect
2:57:13and a lot of times where we really work
2:57:15together is on civil liberty issues
2:57:18these kind of issues that's why I so
2:57:20appreciate this panel we have here today
2:57:23that I mean that's how it's supposed to
2:57:24work so there was talk earlier about a
2:57:26speech code seems to me the speech code
2:57:28is the one that's right behind me right
2:57:30isn't that the speech code in in in
2:57:32America the First Amendment itself
2:57:34speech code in common sense as Mr coroll
2:57:36has talked about so u m Mr uh shapir
2:57:39your thoughts on a speech code or isn't
2:57:41shouldn't it be the first amendment this
2:57:43shouldn't that be sufficient absolutely
2:57:45and I think that we're moving into very
2:57:46dangerous territory when we start
2:57:47identifying spe is violence uh and that
2:57:49that I think is is what's happening more
2:57:51and more often in our politics I think
2:57:52it's happening uh on college campuses
2:57:54when you start saying that what you say
2:57:56offends me to the point where I'm going
2:57:57to treat it as violence then we are
2:57:59moments away from an actual violent
2:58:01confguration and that has to stop
2:58:03immediately do you think uh Mr Shapiro
2:58:07that um some of the things we have seen
2:58:10from the federal government are
2:58:12contributing to the what I would
2:58:15describe as you know crazy situation we
2:58:17see on many campuses situations you've
2:58:19had to go through and live through do
2:58:21you think some of the things that the
2:58:22federal government has done are
2:58:24chilling um free speech on on college
2:58:27campus and specifically and frankly what
2:58:29prompted
2:58:30my renewed interest or or greater
2:58:33interest I should say in in the series
2:58:35of hearings we're having on the first
2:58:36amendment was a few years ago when we
2:58:39discovered that an agency with the power
2:58:42and the ability to intimidate and impact
2:58:44people's lives the agency known as the
2:58:46Internal Revenue Service was
2:58:48systematically and for a sustained
2:58:50period of time targeting people for
2:58:52their political beliefs do you think
2:58:54that has some chilling impact on what
2:58:56may in fact be happening on our what is
2:58:58in fact happening on our college
2:58:59campuses I mean sure when people have an
2:59:00enormous amount of power whether it's at
2:59:01an administrative level or at the
2:59:03federal level they tend to use it uh in
2:59:06ways that benefit the side that they
2:59:08that they control uh and and that's that
2:59:11that has I mean I think you've seen this
2:59:12it's a completely different topic but I
2:59:14think think you've seen this in the in
2:59:15the context of how a lot of the sexual
2:59:18assault hearings are taking place on
2:59:19campus now where they're taking place
2:59:21under title mine opes and they don't
2:59:23actually follow any sort of
2:59:24constitutional due process procedures uh
2:59:27that's that's an area where the federal
2:59:28government has gotten involved and and
2:59:30really overridden individual rights and
2:59:32listen nobody is in favor of sexual
2:59:34assault everyone wants to see rapist
2:59:35prosecuted um but we need to come back
2:59:37to some sort of rational standard of
2:59:39application not just what we wish we
2:59:41could do in in some sort of Utopia uh
2:59:44just just two final points Mr Rasin
2:59:46raised the point earlier that the
2:59:48majority party invites four the
2:59:50witnesses that the minority party
2:59:51invites one that's standard practice I
2:59:53would point out of the four Witnesses I
2:59:55think probably two come from four
2:59:57majority witness probably two come from
2:59:58the left on the political p uh Spectrum
3:00:02uh Mr Shapiro hasn't exactly been a fan
3:00:04of the uh current
3:00:06Administration uh and I don't know
3:00:08exactly what Mr coroll is U I tend to I
3:00:11would think he's fairly libertarian but
3:00:13I don't know if he's Republican or
3:00:14Democrat so we tried to invite people
3:00:16who believe in the sign behind me that's
3:00:19what we try to do and people who are
3:00:20willing to defend it who are willing to
3:00:23say that this is Paramount to the
3:00:24American experience and who we are as a
3:00:26nation and that's what this uh series of
3:00:29hearings that we are undertaking in this
3:00:31committee um are all about so final
3:00:33question is to the the Heckler in the
3:00:35middle when is the uh when's the movie
3:00:36coming out again uh no safe spaces uh
3:00:40Dennis Prager and myself have uh gotten
3:00:43together to do this subject uh but the
3:00:46uh 86 minute version of it not the
3:00:50477 minute
3:00:52version yes my bladder is very angry at
3:00:55you um yeah I think it's coming out mid
3:00:58early uh 2018 so look forward to that
3:01:01well we look forward to it as well I
3:01:03want to thank each of you for being here
3:01:05today and participating in this
3:01:06important hearing and we look forward to
3:01:08having more and frankly what we're going
3:01:09to do we may invite some of you back but
3:01:11we certainly want to have some of the uh
3:01:13students maybe even some of them who are
3:01:14in the room gentleman from Alabama I'm
3:01:16sorry
3:01:18I just want to thank the students for
3:01:19coming and I hope you look back on this
3:01:21and count this as one of the best days
3:01:24in your education that you've ever had I
3:01:26yeld back I than the gentlemen with that
3:01:28we are adjourned thank you very much

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