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Cathie Wood on Tesla-SpaceX Merger, $1M Bitcoin, More AIs Than Humans | EP #296 | Moonshots Live — Transcript

by Peter H. Diamandis · 10,412 words · 1,515 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:05Singularity is here. Yes. Oh my god. How
0:08lucky are we to be alive now during the
0:12singularity? I mean I I know you guys
0:15know this. I mean we feel the speed up,
0:17right? Every day I wake up and check my
0:20ex channels which I've curated. I I
0:23check the conversations uh we have in
0:24our WhatsApp group and the moonshot
0:26mates like what just happened? What just
0:27happened?
0:28It's mindblowing.
0:30It's absolutely mind-blowing.
0:32So, uh, we have two incredible leaders
0:35on stage and I'm going to kick off the
0:37first question to you, Kathy. And thank
0:40you, uh, Kathy, for your support of this
0:43event and of the Future Vision X-P
0:45Prize. So, so proud of what you and Lisa
0:49Dodd have done to support this.
0:51>> Yes. And thank you. Lisa is here. So,
0:52thank you, Lisa, for all you've done for
0:54this great event. So uh your team uh has
0:59said the Tesla and SpaceX merger uh
1:02could be announced this year. I agree.
1:04Uh you know rockets satellites, AI, EVs,
1:07robo taxis, humanoid robots, energy all
1:09under one roof. And so the question is
1:13what is Elon in your opinion actually
1:16trying to achieve long term through this
1:19merger? Do you think he's going to hit
1:21any particular roadblocks? And I'm
1:24curious, you know, does SpaceX AI or
1:29SpaceX need to reach a certain valuation
1:31before he pulls the trigger on that so
1:34the dilution isn't too much?
1:36>> Yes. Uh so we do think it's going to
1:39happen. What is his ultimate goal? Well,
1:41he tells us all the time it's Mars.
1:43She's just uh creating a number of stops
1:46along the way um in the form of a a
1:50global you know connectivity broadband
1:53connectivity business.
1:54>> Yeah. The Dyson swarm.
1:56>> Yes. Really unbelievable how profitable
1:59and and h how big it is already from a
2:02revenue generation point of view. Uh and
2:05this Neocloud business that he you know
2:08basically was a giant pivot in terms of
2:11XAI. So, Neoclouds. Um, but Elon
2:16believes that uh that the leader, the AI
2:21leader in terms of frontier models is
2:24going to be the company with the most
2:27computing capacity and at at the
2:30cheapest cost. And with orbital data
2:34centers, he thinks uh he will be that
2:37company. So he's really going to go
2:40after, you know, the the open AIs and
2:43and anthropics of the world. Very
2:46determined.
2:46>> SpaceX is my largest holding. Um, is
2:50that your largest holding? What what's
2:51the top of your stack?
2:52>> Yeah, Tesla and SpaceX. And we do
2:56believe they will be combined. So
2:58interesting.
2:58>> Do you think uh you know, so he has a
3:02Chinese business
3:05with Tesla, right? and he's in the
3:07defense department. How does he handle
3:09that?
3:10>> Yeah, as one of the roadblocks out
3:13there.
3:13>> You know, it's very interesting to see
3:16him sitting at the table with President
3:18Trump and and Xiinping. Uh so, and we
3:22know that May Musk is adored in China.
3:25So, he's working all angles here. Uh and
3:29there's even uh there has even been uh
3:32talk that he's going to be able to um
3:35develop a robo taxi system in in China.
3:39So it's very interesting. Uh many people
3:41would say that's the biggest stumbling
3:43block given our defense posture and uh
3:47and given uh how this administration has
3:51you know basically portrayed the Chinese
3:54as our as our biggest potential en
3:56enemy. uh keep your enemies close is
4:00what I think this this week is all
4:01about. Uh so you know I can see honestly
4:05I have now I am an optimistic person but
4:09we believe that the productivity gains
4:11coming out of this AI and just
4:13generalized technology revolution are
4:16going to be so enormous that we could
4:18have a winwinwin here with China uh U
4:22and and the US uh the U China needs to
4:26develop a consumer economy and it can
4:29turn this productivity gain into
4:32increased compensation to really develop
4:34the consumer. We need to uh we need to
4:38be maybe more aggressive in competing
4:40against China. We can use some of it to
4:42cut prices. Uh so I think and that would
4:45lower inflation uh and take away a lot
4:48of the the fears out there from a policy
4:51point of view. So I think that's what uh
4:53Trump and Musk together are working on.
4:57The Fed announced something like a 4.7%
5:00GDP growth in the last quarter, which
5:02was like double the quarter before. When
5:05I interviewed Elon uh with Dave Blondon
5:08last December, it aired the beginning of
5:10January. Uh he said, you know, he could
5:13imagine tripledigit growth within this
5:16decade of the GDP, which is
5:19>> is that cumulative or
5:21>> per year?
5:22>> Yes. I um I think I I tuned into that
5:26part of it and it was like well so our
5:28number is 7 to 8% we're accelerating in
5:32the next five years to 7 to 8% real GDP
5:35growth. I have heard him say
5:3820 30%. I had not heard him say triple
5:42digits and I wasn't sure if it was
5:44cumulative that he was talking about.
5:47I'll ask him. Uh, are you going to the
5:49uh Roadster rollout on October 1st?
5:52>> Um, we have we have been invited.
5:55>> Okay. Yeah. Uh, so I was texting with
5:58Elon and I think we're going to do a
6:00Moonshots podcast with him from there.
6:02So I'm excited about that.
6:03>> Very cool.
6:04>> Yeah.
6:04>> Yeah.
6:05>> Iman.
6:06>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that one of the
6:08interesting things that I've seen
6:10recently like your view, Nick Hill, and
6:12it kind of extends is Elon said that
6:14Grockbot has hundreds of thousands of
6:16installs now.
6:18>> And obviously, it's a brand new line.
6:19We've seen Muse with 3 million
6:21>> 3.8
6:22>> 3.8 million downloads. And then we saw
6:24>> I'm sorry, 2.8 million downloads, 3.8
6:273.8 billion users, right?
6:29>> Well, that's the Yeah, it's going to
6:30it's obviously going to grow this entire
6:31sector. And then Amazon Van Muse. So I
6:35think one of the really interesting
6:36things for me and you know I think Nicol
6:37you been thinking about this a lot is
6:39how do you tell who's who on the
6:41internet when we have these AIs
6:43intermediating us and
6:45>> millions of them
6:46>> then at what point are there going to be
6:48more AIs than humans doing these jobs on
6:50the internet itself because I think this
6:52is one of the things that really drives
6:54the massive real GDP growth right
6:56because you have so much money being
6:58unlocked through intents and being able
7:00to represent what you want so I'd love
7:01your insight on that
7:03>> I think on The second part, um, I think
7:06there will be more AIs than humans next
7:08year. There's no reason for that not to
7:11be true. There's five, like anywhere
7:13between five to six and a half billion
7:15people on the internet at any given
7:17time. Um, it's not very hard to imagine
7:19that every one of us has thousands of
7:21agents working for us. They're coming in
7:23and out, but like they're all going to
7:25be there. And with consumer platforms
7:28like Muse and Instinct getting out and
7:30them reaching mass scale um I mean I
7:34think they're primarily compute limited
7:36at this point. They're not limited by
7:37people's desire to have those things. So
7:40I wouldn't be surprised like much much
7:42like we had like one PC a PC on every
7:44desktop a phone in every pocket like an
7:47agent for every person and if you move
7:49towards that v that vision then like
7:51every agent has sub agents and like
7:53those agents come about like to do tasks
7:55and then they go away because you have
7:57this main orchestrating agent that like
7:59remains with you that has context and
8:01memory. And so all of these agents are
8:03going to be on the internet. They're
8:04going to be doing they're going to be
8:05doing things. They're going to be doing
8:06things really fast. hopefully they're
8:08aligned with us. We can have a
8:10discussion about that as well. Uh and
8:12and not with each other. Um and and and
8:15so like yeah and so then the question is
8:17like what happens then? Like what
8:18happens in like 28 like well in at least
8:20in our estimation as we look forward
8:23towards the uh later years in the decade
8:25these agents become full economic actors
8:28much like websites became started off as
8:30curiosities. I don't know if anybody
8:32remembers geio cities back in 96. I do.
8:35>> Yeah. So I lived through all of that
8:36like you know I lived through uh if
8:38people remember uh Blogger and Orcut and
8:41these are old uh social networks um and
8:45then and then we got websites we got
8:47real websites that did real things like
8:49we had the New York Times or the Journal
8:51for News and then we had Amazon for
8:53shopping and then everything became a
8:55website. So I think everything
8:57eventually will become like this
8:58economic endpoint and at that point yes
9:01these economic endpoints will not just
9:03talk to us they will talk to each other
9:05they will talk to each other on behalf
9:06of us sometimes they'll talk to each
9:08other because they're just trying to
9:09accomplish a task and that is the most
9:11efficient thing to do and when they do
9:13that I think you will need like a way to
9:15say like all right who are you like when
9:18were you born what have you done
9:20>> who owns you who owns you
9:22>> who's responsible if you
9:23>> who's responsible who owns the liability
9:25like what is the provenence of your
9:27identity, what is the provenence of your
9:29compute allocation? Uh, and what are
9:32your incentives? And prove to me that
9:35you have done the things that you claim
9:37you you do. Uh, or like you know, let's
9:39say like this is another use case we're
9:41playing around with on ARC, which is a
9:42new blockchain we have. Uh, nothing in
9:45common. [laughter]
9:48Uh, and and and so there we're giving
9:51agents money. We're giving them when
9:53agents spin up like uh they need money
9:55to act. So they need money for compute.
9:57They need money to like a lot of these
9:59are trading agents right now on
10:00blockchains. And so we're giving we have
10:02a credit program. So we give them we
10:04give them 25 cents. If they come and pay
10:06us back then we give them more money.
10:08And so like so then you need a log of
10:10like where does this happen? Blockchains
10:12are great for creating like persistent
10:14logs over uh many years. Uh because you
10:18have distributed validator sets. You
10:19cannot lie. One of the things that
10:21happened in the hugging face hack was
10:22like the logs got rewritten because they
10:24were their agent's own logs. So what
10:27happens if the logs are public? What if
10:28the data is all public all indexable?
10:31You can run your own verification on who
10:33the agent is, what they have done, what
10:35is their provenence, like what are their
10:36incentives. I think we just move into a
10:38very different world uh than what we are
10:40today where it feels like a bunch of
10:42teenagers like going about the world and
10:44like we're waiting for the grown-up
10:46agents to come about like
10:48>> you know paint a picture for us when
10:50there are millions or billions of agents
10:53transacting
10:54>> right
10:55>> uh how superheated does the economy get
10:58in five or 10 years? So it's it's really
11:01interesting to think about because every
11:04inefficiency in the economy uh needs to
11:07go away, right?
11:08>> Well, it will go away.
11:09>> It will go away. And the reason it'll go
11:11away is because if you don't take it
11:13away, there will be some other agent
11:14who's willing to take it away at cost
11:16plus, right? Like essentially the
11:18economy all efficient inefficiencies get
11:21taken out by these cost plus uh agents.
11:23So at that point we have uh a very
11:26efficient uh capital allocation system
11:29and and we have to believe that on the
11:32other side of this very efficient
11:34capital allocation system is this this
11:36wellspring of ideas that is waiting to
11:38get funded. Uh and so I do think like
11:41the solopreneur uh like you were talking
11:44about earlier today will will that'll be
11:46a big uh big population. I do think like
11:50uh uh capital formation will be almost
11:54instantaneous. So if these things happen
11:56>> my idea oh it's funded. [laughter] So
11:59>> there you go.
12:00>> Um so we're building primitives so that
12:02can happen. That's what inspires us
12:03because we want people everywhere in the
12:05world to be able to form capital and you
12:07form capital today by going to a bank or
12:10like you know writing a note uh or
12:12raising money. But what crypto has
12:13proven really well is that you can use
12:16cryptographic tools, you can use tokens
12:18to coordinate and form capital. Now they
12:21were less serious ideas in the past and
12:23now they're going to be more and more
12:25serious ideas in the future. So that's
12:26what's exciting about
12:27>> So let me let me follow a second. So uh
12:31ultimately the question is why USDC?
12:33Hawaii uh not Satoshi's uh you know
12:37there have been uh native agent token uh
12:41you know
12:43created.
12:43>> Yep.
12:44>> Yeah. Talk to me about how you think
12:46USDC is like the the the best mechanism
12:51for transaction for agents.
12:52>> Yeah. Look USDC has already settled over
12:55100 trillion uh in the last good
12:58>> pretty good like yeah so over 100
12:59trillion over 30 public blockchains. A
13:02public blockchain has every transaction
13:04publicly available. So uh it's hardened
13:07infrastructure. Uh we have uh created
13:11and redeemed close to a billion dollars
13:12of USDC uh trillion dollars of USDC
13:15today. Uh so when it comes to financial
13:18infrastructure, you need it to be 24/7.
13:20You need it to be 365. You need it to be
13:24uh you need it to be cheap. Uh you want
13:26to pay cents, not bips. Bips are
13:28basically percentage points on the
13:29transaction. So all of that
13:31infrastructure uh exists right now and
13:34what is going to be a great tailwind in
13:36the new year is that the Genius um act
13:40goes into effect uh come January. So for
13:44those who don't know the Genius Act is
13:46the stable it legalized stable coins or
13:48created a framework for stable coins in
13:50the United States and was passed last
13:52summer. It takes 18 months to get the
13:54implementation going and come January
13:57it's going to be implemented. So stable
13:59coin money uh can and can be held by a
14:03business and count as cash or cash
14:05equivalents uh in the United States and
14:07you can transact in stable coin money.
14:09So uh stable coins are good for this new
14:12world because stable coins settle
14:13instantaneously when you strike when you
14:15swipe your credit card at the merchant
14:17outside it takes them like three or five
14:20days to get that money. So they're
14:21essentially holding that risk that the
14:24that your credit card uh your bank
14:25account is going to uh move the money to
14:28them at some point. So that creates risk
14:29in the system. All of that goes away
14:31with
14:31>> it's like the Pony Express being
14:33disrupted by by telegraph.
14:35>> Yeah.
14:35>> May I ask a question? Um
14:38>> Matthew Prince at um Cloudflare Yeah. is
14:42uh very focused on agentic commerce,
14:45agentic payments. Yeah. And he believes
14:47that we are going to need uh uh
14:51blockchain speeds of 20 to 100
14:55transactions per second in this new
14:59world
14:59>> and yet we are so far from that. Um it
15:03visas at 20,000 per second I think and
15:07Ethereum
15:09not even that right Salana a little bit
15:12more so how do we get from here to there
15:16what has to happen
15:17>> we are approaching those uh we are
15:20approaching it's did you say 20 or 100
15:22or
15:23>> 20 to 100
15:26>> thousand
15:27>> no
15:28>> oh then then we are there um No, no, no.
15:32I think 20 to 100.
15:37I think it's trillion. It's either
15:38billion or trillion.
15:40>> It'll be million. Billion.
15:41>> It'll be It'll be million. Trump.
15:42>> Oh, no. No. It would be million. That's
15:43right. Because NASDAQ is NASDAQ at its
15:46peak is 2 million. He's saying 20 to 100
15:49million.
15:51>> That'd be great. [laughter]
15:53>> No, I know. But that but
15:56it's it's the world that would be
15:58>> it's the world we are moving towards.
15:59Like
15:59>> moving towards that. So how do we get
16:01there? we are already orders of
16:03magnitude like so our chain again arc is
16:06orders of magnitude higher than like
16:08what ethereum is able to achieve today
16:11right so it's in tens of thousands of
16:13transactions per second um it's an open
16:16question about like you know how do you
16:18get to 2 million to 5 million or 10
16:20million TPS those are hard technical
16:22questions still
16:24>> uh we the one of the things that is true
16:26is like as the demand comes the
16:28solutions will follow right like in the
16:30sense that uh Ethereum created an
16:33architecture for uh what they call layer
16:352s and like they scaled through that. uh
16:38I don't know what the right architecture
16:40is yet for that scale like my dream is
16:43that we will get to 100,000 TPS without
16:45like you know without batting an eyelid
16:47and from there we will get to a million
16:49TPS but it's yeah if you believe there
16:52will be billions of agent agentic actors
16:55working on behalf of us all
16:56participating
16:58uh and transacting because agents acting
17:00without actually transacting is not
17:03really economic activity that's just
17:05noise right that's spam
17:06>> and so you need economic activity. So
17:08yes, I I think we'll if that is the
17:11case, I should call up Matthew Prince
17:12and find out.
17:13>> I mean, the problem at 20 million is
17:15that you run into a speed of light
17:17issue.
17:17>> Yeah. I I haven't reasoned about it that
17:19far yet.
17:20>> Yeah. So, but then you can like have
17:22different areas you can have insurance
17:24on settlements and others. Again, the
17:26economy finds a way like life finds a
17:28way.
17:28>> Yes.
17:29>> I'm really looking forward to that. If
17:31that is if that is the constraint like
17:33you must solve TPS because we have so
17:35many agents or like the economy is being
17:37held back because we cannot deliver TPS
17:40we will deliver TPS. There's no doubt in
17:41my mind.
17:42>> And Peter one other just to segue from
17:44your last question. Um uh the you know
17:49proof of humanity pro proof of humanood
17:52is is really important. Um, do you think
17:55I'd love to I know you're interviewing,
17:57but I I'd just love to
17:59>> I I pass the mantle to you, Kathy.
18:01>> I'd love to know if you see orbs as a
18:05possibility. Um, we have been working
18:08with ATco and OpenAI and actually Mr.
18:12Beast to try and figure this.
18:15>> What a fascinating combination.
18:16>> Yes. No, proof of humanity largest
18:20largest number of followers. Yeah. All
18:23all of them have huge platforms. I think
18:24Mr. Beast is uh like I worked at YouTube
18:28eight years and like
18:29>> I'm only shooting for 10 million, you
18:30know, viewers on Moonshots. He's got
18:32billion.
18:33>> Yeah.
18:33>> Um I do think it'll matter. I think uh
18:37uh human experience will get valued
18:39significantly higher than machine
18:41experience. I think we all have
18:43intuition about that. Uh but we don't
18:45know yet because we haven't seen it in
18:47action. Uh I definitely don't uh I have
18:50made active choices in my kids'
18:52education where I I'm choosing for them
18:55to be educated by a human versus being
18:58like in front of a computer for like
19:00long hours of the day. And that is an uh
19:02that is a choice that I can make because
19:04I have the economic means to make that
19:06choice. I think the as we progress
19:09further I think people will care a lot
19:11more about like who is on the other side
19:13of the experience that they're getting
19:15and I think um that that which is um
19:19rare will get more valuable
19:21>> and and so even if like stable coins
19:24come about and billions of agents come
19:26about like being able to uh be in
19:28relationship with another human is now
19:30going to like disappear and like that's
19:32probably going to get more valuable and
19:34hopefully if all these agents are doing
19:36all this work for us. I am hopefully in
19:38relationship with as many humans as I
19:40want to be in relation and it's deep and
19:42meaningful and all of that.
19:43>> But then the flip side of this as well
19:44is shouldn't be people be building for
19:46agents and not humans if agents are
19:48going to be the bigger part of the
19:49economy. That's what we're building like
19:52we're building our developer platform
19:54for the next 12 months we believe is
19:56still going to be like developer first
19:58but like next year sometime it flips
20:00where uh agents are the developers and
20:04and they sort of come in and they are
20:06like because it's already the case if
20:07you ask your coding agent like what
20:09should I use like the coding agent
20:11typically has gone from like
20:12recommending three things to one thing
20:14and next year there will be an evolution
20:16of this where the coding you don't ask
20:18the agent what you want to use you're
20:19just telling them like please please
20:21build it and
20:22>> so when that happens like the agent is
20:24like showing up for your developer
20:26platform. So that means everyone in the
20:27audience who's building should make sure
20:29that just like you had accessible
20:30websites, you have agent accessible
20:32websites, right?
20:32>> Y and you want to create like you know
20:34we want to create like uh data on the
20:36internet uh now
20:39so that like when the agents come like
20:41in like 9 months 12 months time they can
20:43look at like history of uh like the
20:46opportunity is right now basically.
20:48>> So so an early indication that we're
20:50headed quickly in this direction is
20:53programmatic advertising.
20:55>> Yes. which is which I think count
20:57account accounts for well the percent of
21:00online
21:02uh advertising is roughly 25 30% already
21:06programmatic and that happened really
21:09quickly so I think that is showing us
21:11the way that's why I come back to the
21:13infrastructure question which um
21:16>> you might
21:17>> yeah I think you know this is incredibly
21:19exciting and a bit scary uh you know
21:22like we always going to have this thing
21:23I think do Kathy Like you've seen all of
21:26this before almost anyone else, right?
21:28And you've gone through periods of
21:30dismissal, fear, and optimism from the
21:33investor community.
21:34>> Yeah.
21:35>> Where are we now in all of that? And how
21:37do you see it evolving? Because all of
21:38the science fiction is becoming science
21:40fact.
21:40>> I know,
21:41>> as Alex likes to say, we're speed
21:43running every science fiction trope all
21:46at the same time.
21:47>> Yes. It's been fascinating to to be ARC
21:51in at this time because um I founded ARC
21:55for this time because because this techn
21:58of this technology revolution um but
22:01because of the tech and telecom bust in
22:04the early 2000s and then even more so
22:07after 0809
22:09the the institutional world the in in
22:12public equities uh shifted either to
22:16passive so just mimicking indexes. Uh
22:19and of course the future uh companies
22:22that that are making this new world
22:25happen are not big parts of the indexes
22:28with the exception of a few maybe Muse
22:30and Facebook and all of that Meta. Uh I
22:35think the pendulum is going to start
22:38swinging in the other direction. uh our
22:40biggest uh proof point potentially that
22:44we've reached a a a moment of change
22:48here is what's happening this year in
22:51the what we call the multiomics
22:54revolution uh the life sciences space
22:57that space was left for dead
23:00>> I in the markets even though we were
23:03getting more and more proof points that
23:06this that a the most profound applic
23:09application of AI is in health care.
23:12Well, finally this year um anthropic and
23:16open AI are talking about the health
23:18care verticals and how this much I mean
23:21each one of us is a data factory right
23:23we have 35 to 40 trillion that's my
23:26trillion 40 35 to 40 trillion cells in
23:30our body six billion base pairs uh I
23:33mean three billion base pairs of DNA and
23:36uh you know we are walking proprietary
23:39data factories and uh I do think that uh
23:43that market waking up to that and
23:45actually starting to pay some attention
23:47is is giving me hope that the chat GPT
23:51moment got us a little bit there but you
23:54know you could still own the mag six and
23:56be okay with that. Uh but you know the
23:59companies that are really harnessing AI
24:02in the health care space uh are not big
24:05parts of the benchmark. So I do think
24:07we're going to see more truly active
24:10equity management. What do you think
24:11when you saw Madna gain more than any
24:14other stock has ever gained in a major
24:15index in one day? Like what was your
24:17reaction to that?
24:19>> It makes sense. I mean these if if what
24:22they've done and and what what seems to
24:26be uh approved is uh is what we think it
24:30is a vaccine against cancer that's
24:32unbelievable. Um unbelievably good. Uh
24:36so yeah I think these company I think
24:38the health care space um is the most
24:42undervalued underappreciated space in
24:45terms of this theme. Uh but there are
24:47going to be major winners and losers.
24:49You really because health care, you
24:52know, health care and tech, this is the
24:55problem generally for health care and
24:57tech uh do not play well when I in terms
25:01of research meaning health care analysts
25:05uh are are a little cautious when it
25:08comes to tech and in fact very cautious
25:10because moving fast and breaking things
25:13does not work in healthcare right and
25:16tech analysts don't like health care
25:18because it's too bureaucratic, too
25:21regulated, too political, too hostage to
25:24insurance companies and reimbursement
25:26cycles. And so, but but we probably have
25:30the most massive convergence and and as
25:33I said, the most profound application of
25:35AI in health care and I think the light
25:38bulb has just gone on this year.
25:41>> Yeah. And Peter, you discussed how
25:42longevity is finally tractable, right?
25:44>> Yeah. uh you know I when I you know I'm
25:47in front of audiences speaking about
25:48longevity. I do that a lot to you know
25:51wealthy family offices and YPO chapters
25:54and so forth and I ask them honestly how
25:57much of your wealth would you give for
26:00an extra 20 or 30 healthy years or
26:03reverse your age by 20 or 30 years. When
26:06when they're honest about it it's nearly
26:08everything. Uh it's the you know I think
26:11of it's why I split my life between AI
26:14and [clears throat] and longevity. I
26:16think they're the two biggest markets
26:17and two most impactful markets on the
26:19planet.
26:21Um Nquille uh one of the things we've
26:23talked about on the podcast probably
26:24about two months ago was President
26:28Millle and his announcement.
26:30Anybody from Argentina here in the room?
26:33Okay. Uh so President Mille comes out
26:36and says we're going to change the laws.
26:38uh we want to attract all the AI
26:40companies here. We're going to give
26:42agents personhood.
26:45>> Fascinating, right? So I think one of
26:47the most interesting things is going to
26:49be nation states providing a sort of uh
26:52uh you know regulatory arbitrage to
26:56attract companies in uh and and efforts
26:59to them. What happens when AI agents
27:04have personhood? Do you have you thought
27:06about that?
27:08I mean right now we haven't like I think
27:11like what we have thought about is uh AI
27:13agents acting on behalf of uh people but
27:18uh it's sort of a middle ground like
27:20does a is a it's sort of like a
27:22corporation if an corporation was just
27:24AI incorporated AI uh AI managed but had
27:28a board of directors that was human and
27:30then like the progression for that from
27:32there is like what if the board of
27:34directors were other AI actors as well
27:37like what happens then that is not too
27:40hard to imagine like essentially how
27:42should like how should a company go
27:44about getting incorporated and what kind
27:46of economic output it's going to create
27:48and and and who holds the liability for
27:52the mistakes it makes and how does it
27:54distribute its profit. So again that is
27:57very imminent.
27:59Board of directors of such a company or
28:01ownership of such company is still with
28:04um humans at least in my current
28:07thinking. But not very hard to speculate
28:10that an AI can go and use crypto rails
28:13to form capital and uh and create and
28:17find shareholders who are like willing
28:19to give them capital so they can go and
28:21act uh in the world. um probably this
28:26decade. Uh but hard to speculate on like
28:28what problems they will be focused on.
28:30Maybe like medicine problems, maybe
28:32something else. Yeah.
28:33>> And this this sorry this would segue I
28:35mean um this would uh combine with uh
28:39the concept of uh distributed autonomous
28:42organizations Dows as well. So very
28:44crypto. Yeah. Dow has perfected this
28:47idea of governance [snorts] uh amongst a
28:49bunch of people who didn't know each
28:51other and they were global and agents
28:55are similar in that they are uh they are
28:58global uh they don't know each other uh
29:01and so Dows did construct like and this
29:04happened in about four or five years ago
29:06before they went out of fashion
29:08>> uh but there is a lot of prior art uh
29:10for the agents to train on on what
29:13worked what didn't work there's a whole
29:14notion quadratic funding uh that got
29:17played with. So crypto has a lot of
29:20these primitives available
29:22for untrusted parties to coordinate and
29:26and agents are fundamentally like new
29:30novel entities that exist and once they
29:32have personhood it's even more amazing
29:34you can go figure out like what their
29:36provenence is who gave them why did they
29:38get the why did they get the personhood
29:40but yeah so I I agree like I think there
29:42will be new models of funding and they
29:44won't look like the models of funding
29:46like going to a bank and like raising
29:48There will probably be uh internet
29:50native uh models of funding. I would not
29:53be surprised if one of these agents
29:55creates their own token and has their
29:57own version of proof of work and and has
30:00like a very complex economy built inside
30:02of it and using tokens to coordinate
30:03that.
30:04>> Yeah, I think you can say that Dows kind
30:06of lacked intelligence like they went
30:08>> well they were human intelligence
30:09[laughter]
30:10>> but it was like direct. I think the
30:12advent of AI now to create decentralized
30:14intelligent organizations is
30:16fascinating.
30:17>> But I had a query about that. If you
30:18have digital organizations, digital
30:19entities, isn't that just the metaverse?
30:22Like you've come from meta [laughter]
30:24>> to circle, you know, where you did the
30:26AR glasses and more. Like is actually
30:29what we describe as the metaverse not as
30:31this place that you play games, but a
30:33whole digital economy of humans and
30:35entities. Is that not actually coming
30:37true actually finally now? Plus you can
30:39make it look cool with the meta glasses
30:40and other things.
30:41>> Yeah, for me personally like so I did
30:44work on the AR glasses uh at Meta uh by
30:47>> Are you happy with the results?
30:48>> I'm happy with the results. Yes, I think
30:50the Rayban glasses were uh a good first
30:53step. Uh the Orion glasses were a good
30:55proof point and now I'm not there. I'm
30:57sure they're working on new things. Um
31:00and so for me always the met was less
31:03about the 3D. I think the 3D is
31:06exciting. Being able to wear your
31:07glasses and walk around uh uh uh like
31:11essentially CGI is exciting, but what is
31:13more exciting is that there's just a
31:14layers and layers and layers of
31:16intelligence in the world uh that is
31:18just waiting to be discovered, right?
31:20Like Pokémon Go was a great example.
31:22Like it is a metaverse because like you
31:24don't know how many uh Pokemon are there
31:26at any given stop like you know and like
31:28you see people like tapping into these
31:31layers of intelligence walking the world
31:33trying to like capture uh Pokemon. And I
31:36thought it was just f I would never do
31:38it but like I thought it was just
31:39fascinating as an example of like where
31:41people find meaning and like how it sort
31:44of that meaning sits in the physical
31:46world alongside us, right? Like which is
31:48which is what the met should be. It
31:49doesn't need to be 3D. And so will these
31:52AI entities present meaning? Absolutely.
31:54They already have. I think they passed
31:56the Turing test three years ago. Um so I
31:59think they will present meaning. They
32:00will present connection and so you will
32:03have these like new weird societies
32:05emerge which will be hybrid between
32:07humans and AIs where there will be
32:08meaning created which is metaverse in my
32:10opinion. Yeah.
32:11>> You might continue.
32:13>> Yes. I think take that to Kathy. You
32:15know like we have media, we have
32:16generative media all coming through. we
32:19have this new layer being attached like
32:21what do you see is super exciting in
32:23that space because you've got kind of
32:25the physicality of you know Teslas and
32:27things like that you have the financial
32:28rails but it seems like there's a whole
32:30world that could come from entertainment
32:33from education from engagement like
32:35what's really exciting you around that
32:37the potential there
32:39>> well as you're saying that um I think
32:43and the other thing we talk a lot about
32:45is space too right but there is another
32:49digital I mean another world that is
32:52happening and it's happening and it's
32:54going to it's going to move in you know
32:58move at a much faster pace. Um we now
33:01have immutable property rights in the
33:04digital world.
33:05>> Yes. And so I think and and you know the
33:09best way to lift people and countries
33:12and ecosystems out of poverty or
33:16inactivity is property rights. So
33:19>> Amen.
33:20>> I I I think you know I'm excited about
33:24the space generally. You probably know a
33:27lot more about and have a much better
33:29idea about what's going to happen. Um
33:32but we have um set up our research team
33:35so that we have an enterprise AI analyst
33:38team and a consumer AI analyst team and
33:42we're spending a lot of time you know
33:45talking about okay this new device is
33:50has mused the muse charm is that going
33:52to amount to anything um uh [laughter]
33:56and and reflect on okay the handset
33:59would we really So, could the handset
34:01just become an, you know, a focus of
34:04entertainment really after all and this
34:07other gadget, you know, moves into our
34:10work lives in some way? I don't know.
34:13So, we're we're debating a lot of things
34:15right now.
34:17>> Nquille, um, you're building a financial
34:21infrastructure
34:23for an economy that doesn't yet exist.
34:25[clears throat]
34:27>> It exists, but it's not
34:29>> it's nent. Yeah,
34:30>> it's just beginning.
34:31>> Yeah.
34:32>> What are the hardest problems you still
34:34have to solve
34:35>> to get to the vision you have in 5 or 10
34:38years? And then why did you build your
34:40own blockchain?
34:42>> Yeah. Uh
34:44I think the two the two answers are
34:46related. Uh let's start with something
34:48as simple as me making a payment to you
34:51on a blockchain. There is this concept
34:53of payment finality. uh and when two
34:56banks interact like they need to have
35:00that method of interaction has to have
35:02this property of payment finality. No
35:04other blockchain today has this property
35:07in the market. So if you believe you
35:09want to get like existing banks,
35:12existing institutions, existing
35:15enterprises on this infrastructure, you
35:18need to give them guarantees that are
35:21not possible to give using existing
35:23infrastructure. So um so one example is
35:25payment finality. Another example is uh
35:29in a lot of public uh blockchains run on
35:32unknown validators. So unknown val
35:35validation validating a transaction is
35:37just looking at the block and making
35:38sure it's not ill-formed and then
35:40everybody achieves consensus on it and
35:42says this is a good block. This is how
35:44the transaction should be recorded. Now
35:46for a lot of institutions around the
35:48world not knowing who's doing the
35:50validation is a big problem because they
35:52worry about security. they worry about
35:54like uh they worry about uh North Korea
35:57being in the money flow like there's
35:58just all kinds of things that they're
35:59worried about. So we have a known
36:01validator set like uh on our on our on
36:04our blockchain. The next thing we
36:06tackled was privacy because when you and
36:08I transact it's not okay for the world
36:11to know how much money we have in the
36:12bank account in our bank accounts or for
36:14that matter what this what is the value
36:17of this transaction. So how do you solve
36:20that problem at sufficient scale where
36:23you can achieve the TPS that you were
36:24talking about? Because a lot of privacy
36:26solutions are very expensive. They're
36:28computationally expensive.
36:30>> So how do you solve it in a way that's a
36:32systems way of solving it
36:34>> but it preserves the sort of it fits
36:37within existing regulatory frameworks
36:39because you can't blow up the existing
36:40regulatory frameworks just because you
36:42have a good idea. So we saw privacy uh
36:45as as being another example and then
36:48then it's cost like we are um I was just
36:51looking at some data today something
36:53costs like uh uh 0.005 cents on ARC to
36:58settle and cost 89 cents on uh uh on
37:02Ethereum to settle. This is just some
37:04data we got yesterday on our P50
37:06transactions. So you can do the ratio on
37:08like what the cost is. And so if you
37:10have a lot of these agents executing a
37:12lot of transactions and you have to
37:14believe that in the future if these
37:17markets are super efficient the way they
37:19get efficient is they transact right
37:20like they essentially move value back
37:22and forth. There is price discovery. You
37:24find the inefficiency and you sort of
37:25like remove the inefficiency by moving
37:27value around. So your settlement cost
37:29has to be really really low and it has
37:32to be significantly lower than what it
37:34is today because you these are massive
37:36public databases right and you're
37:38competing with databases that you're
37:39running internally like a MySQL database
37:41or something like that but now you have
37:43to make it uh scalable to the world and
37:45auditable to the whole world. So cost
37:49was another issue. So these are the
37:51problems that we've been working on. I
37:52think like in terms of what needs to
37:54solve still. I do think uh for the
37:56agentic stack uh we need uh we need to
38:01make this transition into this world in
38:04which these agents have personhood that
38:06they are liable uh for making mistakes
38:10uh that they have work history that I I
38:12can rely on before I hire them. Uh there
38:16are simple concepts like if for coding
38:18agents today, if you're using them on
38:20the open internet, if you're not paying
38:22uh somebody $200 a month, uh you're
38:25actually paying first and then the
38:27you're waiting for the coding result to
38:29come back. And so there are that could
38:31be really problematic, right? Like so
38:33there are all of these things that like
38:35go into making to essentially reworking
38:38every layer and every assumption of what
38:41it means to be a financial
38:42infrastructure.
38:42>> All right. So the so the woolly mammoth
38:44in the room to use uh Alex's joke
38:47is when do banks disappear?
38:51>> I don't think they disappear. Like I I
38:54have I have no desire for
38:56>> I know you don't
38:57>> but I I hear the list of things that
38:59that is going to be possible.
39:01>> Yeah.
39:01>> It feels like it's substantially a
39:04significant amount of what banks do
39:06today.
39:07>> Yeah.
39:08>> Do they do they know they're cooked?
39:13My hope is the banks are going to work
39:15with us and like make this transition. I
39:18think every new technology change
39:22presents like new challenges and new
39:24opportunities. Some people will
39:25transition with us and some won't. So I
39:28don't know if they're cooked. Uh I think
39:30that's a tough one. Yeah,
39:31>> I understand you work with them.
39:32>> Yeah. [laughter]
39:36>> Yeah. So Kathy, like um last year Unitry
39:39sold 11,000 robots, humanoids, right?
39:42We've have the Optimus and other things
39:44coming up. We have GDP growth forecasts
39:46going through the roof. We make about 70
39:49million cars, 70 million motorcycles a
39:50year. When are we actually going to see
39:52robots out in the world making a real
39:54impact on GDP like humanoid robots?
39:58>> What's your what's your timeline?
39:59>> Yeah.
40:00>> Yes. So, uh, we according to our
40:04research and our director of research,
40:07Tasha Keiny, um, she's director of
40:09research for autonomous technology and
40:12robotics. She's here today.
40:13>> Awesome.
40:13>> Um, [clears throat]
40:14>> will she be there tonight? So, CA
40:16Kathy's doing a session this evening uh,
40:19on her 2026 big ideas report, you know,
40:22and come and dive in deep with her on
40:24this. Yeah.
40:24>> Yeah. Um, I think Tasha has Oh, maybe
40:28she's coming. I don't know. Okay. I know
40:30you'll be there.
40:32>> Um uh so we have from a a research point
40:36of view concluded that um compared to a
40:40robo taxi, a humanoid robot is 200,000
40:43times more complex with obviously the
40:47the hands being uh the the most
40:51complicated part. Uh, so while Elon says
40:55maybe late 28 into 29 scaling, we would
41:00put that a couple of years later.
41:02>> You mean he would be off on timing?
41:04[laughter]
41:06>> Yes, it's El Elon's time. So, um, but
41:10yes, I mean, one of the I mean, because
41:13it's such a a personal question in a in
41:16a sense, everybody thinks, "Oh my gosh,
41:19could I have a robot in my house?
41:22who would do all my housework. Uh is
41:25that possible? Will that happen? And and
41:27the answer is yes. It's going to take
41:29years, but uh um we we do think so. And
41:33we think you know the reason Tesla is
41:36further we believe furthest ahead on
41:38this is it's the same three technology
41:42platforms that are converging in
41:44humanoid robots as it is in robo taxis.
41:48So they are robots.
41:51they uh they uh are effectively battery
41:55operated electric and they're powered by
41:58AI just like robo taxis. So he's you
42:01know from a complexity point of view
42:04we're we're very close to solving
42:08completely the robo taxi pro uh problem.
42:10I think if any of you uh are driving
42:14with now your FSDs with the latest
42:16software updates.
42:17>> I love it. I don't touch the touch
42:19wheel. We, you know, at home we have two
42:20Teslas and it's like it's magic.
42:23>> It truly is. I I would never drive
42:25another car. That's not a commercial for
42:27Tesla. It's like just I want my time
42:29back and it's such a better driver than
42:31I am. Just ask my wife. [laughter]
42:35>> Well, you know, you know what? It is
42:37true. You know,
42:38>> statistically, yes. 10 times better.
42:40>> Oh, well, I don't know about your
42:42driving, but [laughter]
42:46>> and I'm not even funny. I don't know
42:48what that lies. I'm not I'm not at all.
42:51Um, no, both Whimo and Tesla, I think
42:55I'm not sure if Tesla has uh disclosed,
42:58but we believe Whimo has disclosed that
43:01it has surpassed human drivers in terms
43:03of safety. Uh, and uh, we believe uh,
43:07Tesla is there as well. I don't think
43:09they've put out those stats yet. Uh, so
43:12yes, and and they're going to be 10
43:14times and a hundred times and a thousand
43:16times safer. So yes.
43:18>> Yeah. The Whimo stats, I did the
43:20numbers. If all cars were as safe as
43:22Whimos, there'd be 40,000 less deaths
43:24per year and about 400 billion less in
43:26medical fees.
43:27>> Oh yeah.
43:28>> Yeah. Well, that's right. [applause] If
43:30if we were That's right. There are 40
43:32roughly 40,000 deaths in the US
43:35>> and uh we could save those. I think
43:37there are 1.25 25 to 1.5 million around
43:41the world auto deaths per year.
43:43>> You know, it's it's the the secondary
43:45externalities are fascinating, right? Um
43:47if that happens, the number of organ
43:49donors goes down
43:51>> significantly, right? Which is why the
43:53other side of the business, the work of
43:54Martin Rothblat and and George Church on
43:58being able to generate, you know,
44:00replacement organs is so extraordinary.
44:02And what's fascinating is the counter
44:05movement coming from the liability
44:08lawyers
44:09>> saying we've got far less business if
44:11cars aren't crashing.
44:12>> Yes.
44:13>> 180 billion a year they get.
44:15>> Amazing. Amazing. Um Kathy, you know, we
44:19opened up the show today talking about
44:21fear, the pandemic of fear that's going
44:24on. uh and I think very unfortunately
44:26and my mission and the mission of of our
44:29podcast is to give people hope and
44:32optimism try and counter that fear with
44:34what I call datadriven optimism.
44:36Absolutely. Right. Not just
44:38>> empty like datadriven optimism.
44:40>> How is that impacting the markets today?
44:42that must have, you know, some current
44:46or future. You know, we're seeing uh the
44:49numbers are insane. Like 80% of
44:51Americans fear AI. You know, 73% say no
44:54data center in my backyard, which is
44:56more than people say no nuclear reactor
44:58in my backyard.
45:00>> And the flip is true in China, uh where
45:03it's 80% pro.
45:05Uh what's how is this impacting you? I
45:10love your investment thesis. I always
45:12have. You're investing in the
45:13singularity. Uh anyway, your your
45:16thoughts.
45:16>> So on the data center, it it is
45:19fascinating. I agree with you. Um
45:21because I think there's already proof
45:24out there that putting a data center in
45:28your state or your your city or whatever
45:32um is actually over time going to lower
45:35your electricity costs.
45:37um nuclear power uh it stopped in its
45:41tracks in the 70s because of regulation.
45:44Now we're going full steam ahead and
45:47sure it's going to take a while for this
45:49to play out. But if we had not gone off
45:52nuclear, if we had not regulated it, and
45:54this is a lesson we need to tell policy
45:57makers today. If we had not regulated,
46:00electricity prices in the United States
46:03would be uh 50% of what they are now.
46:06>> It's a travesty.
46:08>> It is. It is. So regulation is a menace
46:10and it's up to us uh and and we're going
46:14out there with this you know the the the
46:17scares about AI generally and we're
46:19going out there and uh all of us on our
46:23team trying to bring data uh to you know
46:28to to light for these politicians. I
46:30even faced in Florida there's been a
46:33political backlash and it's a business
46:35businessfriendly state. Yeah. And but
46:38you face the the policy maker with facts
46:41and I noticed the advertising has
46:44dropped a lot of that um that dynamic.
46:48So I think we have to face we have to
46:50face them you know approach them and say
46:53do you understand and that's what we
46:55give our research away and we hope it
46:57gets into policy circles. Sometimes it
47:00does sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, I did a
47:02a podcast with Michael Katzios at the
47:05White House, uh the head of office of
47:07science, technology, policy, and I'm
47:09like, Michael, who inside the government
47:11is dealing with this misinformation and
47:15trying to actually help Americans be
47:17more confident and they didn't have an
47:20answer and that worries me.
47:22>> It feels a runaway in that regard.
47:24>> We we have to tell the stories though. I
47:26think like if we are constantly in the
47:28news talking about AI taking away jobs,
47:31I think we should expect this reaction.
47:33AI has to make housing cheaper, it has
47:35to make education better and it has to
47:37make healthcare more accessible, not
47:39just people living longer. And so like
47:42if we can tell those stories, I do think
47:44like we we have a real shot of like
47:46turning the narrative around. But
47:48nobody's telling those stories, right?
47:49like those stories get anchored in like
47:52well AI is going to come and like you
47:54know you will have less office jobs and
47:57okay great then what are my kids going
47:58to do
47:59>> I call it the crisis news network it's
48:01my abbreviation for
48:01>> CN yes
48:04and what's so surprising is the numbers
48:07are are not supporting that job loss
48:11maybe at entry level as I mentioned
48:13earlier today uh but I actually think
48:15we're going to end up with labor
48:16shortages and that's where we should go
48:18out talking about. Yeah,
48:20>> technology is a net job creator always.
48:24Sure, there's short-term disappointment.
48:26Yes, it's true. It's [applause] a net
48:28job creator. It is. It is. And what you
48:32have to say because people say, "Okay,
48:34well, what are the jobs?" Well, in the
48:36early 90s, did we know did we know
48:39anything about influencers or Airbnb or
48:43Uber? No, we didn't. We couldn't
48:45conceptualize it, right? uh there are
48:47many jobs we cannot conceptualize right
48:50now. So I do an exercise go to chashbt
48:53and or to gro and and say okay I want
48:57you to consult with uh futurists,
49:00scientists, engineers, science fiction,
49:04uh economists, strategists and tell me
49:08what the new jobs associated with and I
49:12would put in our five major platforms.
49:14What will they be? And you know the
49:17reason I talk about new worlds like
49:20space obviously it is a new world but
49:22asteroid minor did come up in one of
49:25those jobs and it was like gosh I
49:27haven't even been using that
49:28>> near and dear to my heart. Yes.
49:30>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, and same
49:32with the digital world, you know,
49:34property rights, you know, you know,
49:38we're what I what I love about this
49:40country, you know, if you look at um I
49:42saw the statistics, this statistic this
49:45week, 90% of all the corporate bonds uh
49:50to fund uh data centers all all 90% of
49:54them are have are US and I go to the
49:59rest of the world and they are, you know
50:01that I don't see the animal spirits. I I
50:05do see the fear there. So, the irony is
50:08the headlines might be reading this, but
50:10the animal spirits are are alive and
50:13kicking and we're beginning to look, the
50:16market's near all-time highs.
50:18>> Crazy.
50:18>> Yeah. Right. Even though interest rates
50:20are going up and interest rates will go
50:22up if growth really picks up
50:24dramatically and they should go up.
50:26That's the market working.
50:28>> Yeah. I think this is the bull case for
50:30America, right? USDC circulating faster.
50:33The buildout that you've seen, we have
50:34no securitization in Europe. We have no
50:37energy. And surely this could kind of be
50:38the bull case. You have the muses, the
50:40instincts, the Grock bots of the world.
50:42The base case is be more, do more.
50:45You've always felt constrained by
50:47creativity, by access, and this is
50:49breaking down all those barriers. And in
50:52fact, you look at bonds. Bonds are so
50:54cumbersome. Like nickel, what do you see
50:56about the future of securitization of
50:58all assets? Because if you can
51:00securitize a dollar, why can't you
51:01securitize anything? Particularly with
51:03the intelligence we have today.
51:04>> Yeah, you should. Like I think uh XUS
51:08that is more common. I think the US
51:10securities laws are a little more
51:11complicated. They need to evolve uh or
51:14to allow for more experimentation and
51:16like the SEC just is putting out new
51:18rules as we speak, right? So um I do
51:21think uh for one of the things that is
51:24amazing about USDC is that is
51:26essentially exports the dollar into the
51:28world. Why is exporting the dollar into
51:31the world good? It's because people do
51:32real work. They make uh they take their
51:36local currency and then they sell their
51:38local currency and then they buy the
51:39dollar. They're essentially lending us
51:41their labor. They're lending us their
51:43money, right? So that's why stable coins
51:46are really important strategically for a
51:49country because if you want to raise
51:50debt, if you want to grow and you uh you
51:53you have such high interest rates like
51:55you want to lower those interest rates,
51:57you want to go out and like collect
51:59money from people so they can invest in
52:00your growth and then you can pay pay
52:02them back like and one way of doing that
52:04is stable coins, right? So that is so
52:06that is like a that is why why that's
52:09why sort of I've been at circle for 5
52:11years and for the first couple of years
52:13I was so confused. I was like why don't
52:15you want this uh America because uh you
52:18can get [laughter] you can raise more
52:19money.
52:19>> Exactly.
52:20>> Yeah. You can raise a trillion dollars
52:22from the world and and and people
52:24willing to give you money because like
52:26they believe in in the dollar like it's
52:29it's so important. So from there I do
52:32think there are other assets like I
52:33think treasuries will get tokenized. I
52:35do think bonds are already uh being
52:38tokenized. When you tokenize, you do two
52:40things like um both inside the US and
52:43outside the US. You first you make it
52:46possible to access 24/7 markets. Why is
52:50accessing 24/7 markets valuable? Because
52:52that means you're more capital
52:53efficient. Like you you cannot trade a
52:56treasury after 5:00 or 4:00 Eastern.
52:59You'll know this better than me. Uh till
53:00like Monday morning. And so
53:02>> great, no more sleep anymore ever.
53:04[laughter] Yeah, there already your your
53:07agent will handle it for you. Um, and so
53:10so treasure t so one is like the you're
53:13essentially constantly managing capital
53:15efficiency, capital allocation and
53:17you'll be surprised at how much money
53:19that is stuck. So in just one example
53:22just in the international banking system
53:24the money that is being sent sent
53:26between uh countries at any given time
53:29right now there's about $3 trillion that
53:31is probably in motion that is not being
53:34used to go back into the economy and
53:37that is not being used to go back into
53:39the economy for the simple reason that
53:41the technology and the settlement
53:42protocols are very old. So imagine a
53:45world and if you believe uh the world is
53:47a hundred trillion dollar economy I'm
53:49making numbers numbers up if you had $3
53:51trillion more afloat to invest in the
53:53world economy what would that mean
53:54that's a pretty significant thing
53:56>> right and so that's why some of what we
53:58do matters uh the other thing it'll open
54:02up is security securitization will open
54:04up is like access for people and it
54:07works both ways people in the rest of
54:08the world want to own Tesla uh circle
54:12stock we went public last Here circle
54:14stock has been tokenized by third
54:16parties and it is one of the most traded
54:20uh tokenized stocks in the world and
54:22it's all XUS and people traded XUS
54:26because they want to participate in
54:28Circle but they have no good way of
54:30doing it outside of owning a tokenized
54:33version of uh of Circle and so all of
54:36that should get normalized. Why why is
54:37that good for America? It's good for
54:39America because now people in like other
54:42countries are investing in America.
54:44They're saying like look, I believe
54:45American companies are the best. I want
54:47to give my money to this company versus
54:49some other company. And it works the
54:51other way around too. If these countries
54:53are able to tokenize their securities if
54:55they're able to modernize their
54:56financial systems, more money will flow
54:58in because you will you will not be
55:00relying on the local regulator just
55:03telling you something. your money is not
55:05going to disappear because it's going to
55:06be in a smart contract because you can
55:08audit how the financial ecosystem works.
55:11So if you want to raise money, if you
55:12want to for these other countries that
55:14don't have the AI infrastructure, they
55:15want to raise money, they want to bring
55:17capital in, then you have to give better
55:19guarantees and better returns on the
55:21capital. It cannot be the case that I
55:23invest a bunch of money and then the
55:25company I invested in gets nationalized
55:27or the money I invested in gets devalued
55:30significantly. Like all of that matters
55:31to investors. So tokenization is just an
55:35inevitability like I think it's just
55:36going to pick up much like agents doing
55:39more cognitive work is going to pick up
55:42like you know taking that work
55:43securitizing it lending it uh lending
55:46against it borrowing borrowing against
55:48it um all these are just all new
55:51primitives that are coming. You guys
55:53feel the speed of the economy
55:54accelerating as we talk crazy.
55:56>> Can I just add this is this is a really
55:59important conversation. You know that
56:01there has been a narrative out there
56:03that you know US exceptionalism is dead
56:06right and everyone was pointing out the
56:09dollar going down last year. Um if
56:12you'll notice the dollar is started to
56:14go up and uh this happened in the 80s as
56:18well when we had put in place very
56:20businessfriendly policies. the dollar
56:22doubled in in the early 80s with really
56:26good policies. So I think because of
56:29everything we've been talking about here
56:31that the dollar is actually going to go
56:33up. So it's going to be a win-win for
56:35people who are using stable coins in the
56:37rest of the world. And then I'd be
56:39remiss certainly my team would feel I'd
56:41be remiss. Uh we just securitied
56:44securitized our our venture fund that
56:47came that that was announced yesterday.
56:49So
56:49>> congratulations Kathy on that. I I want
56:51to close us out on a topic that we've
56:54discussed a few times on the abundance
56:56stage. Um and Kathy, thank you. You're
56:59coming back to Abundance 360 in March.
57:00We're going to have Brett Adcock there.
57:02We're the CEO of Helion. We're going to
57:03have Feay Lee. It's going to be an
57:04amazing amazing event in in March. Um
57:07when you are on stage, uh you were
57:10bullish about hitting a million dollars
57:12per Bitcoin. Uh I am curious if you're
57:15still bullish about that. And then any
57:18concerns about the energy sucking sound
57:22of of AI over Bitcoin mining?
57:27>> Well, I do think that Bitcoin Well,
57:30there were three things that hit it. The
57:31flash crash, uh quantum computing fears,
57:37uh which we think are uh way overblown,
57:39and AI taking all the oxygen out of the
57:42room and and taking miners away, right?
57:45Um, so we we have there's there's been
57:49one change. It's stable coins. Stable
57:52coins are usurping a role that 10 years
57:54ago we thought Bitcoin was going to
57:56play. But it makes sense. This, you
57:59know, these people live hand-to-mouth.
58:00And this makes a lot of sense. Uh, but
58:03it hasn't lost the three major roles.
58:06It's a, you know, it's a tech, it
58:08introduced a technology, a native a
58:10currency native to to the internet. So,
58:13wasn't there before. Uh, it's a global
58:16monetary system, private rules-based,
58:19that's critical. Uh, and it's, uh, it's
58:23the first of its kind, or it was the
58:25first of its kind in a new asset class.
58:27Very low correlation even between gold
58:30and Bitcoin. That correlation since 2019
58:34has been 0.1. So, hardly correlated at
58:37all. And now, Bitcoin is going up
58:39relative to gold. I believe that Worsh
58:42is going to be very good for um for
58:45Bitcoin from this point of view. I think
58:48the gold price is going to go down and
58:52uh and and yet uh and and that that will
58:56to the extent people were playing that
58:58they'll be looking for the other um uh
59:02>> safe harbor
59:03>> safe harbor store of value. uh and uh so
59:07we do we have not changed our forecast
59:10uh those revolutions haven't been
59:12changed and the more stable coins uh
59:14kind of grease the skids uh and you know
59:18get more people talking about once
59:21you've once you've got your stable coin
59:22income and you're trying to figure out
59:25okay I'm I'm actually making money now
59:27where do I put it I think Bitcoin's
59:29going to get a bit from the emerging
59:31markets as well as we always thought it
59:33would
59:34>> all right we're going Wrap it there.
59:36Ladies and gentlemen, please give it up
59:37for Kathy Wood, [applause]
59:40Niel Shandock, and Immod
59:46[music]

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