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Cassie Jaye - Gender Politics | Exploring Minds w/ Michele Carroll Ep. 15 — Transcript

by Exploring Minds with Michele Carroll · 33,419 words · 4,561 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00but yeah I I realized when I was making
0:02the red pill that every interview I
0:05entered with men's rights activists I
0:08was I was trying to get them to say
0:13something that would lead to that frumpy
0:16misogynistic Pig type documentary and
0:19you know I wasn't pushing for it or I
0:22wasn't I wasn't going to do anything
0:24that would you know try to get them to
0:27say a few words that I could then edit
0:29later to make it sound like a sentence
0:30that they hate women or want to turn
0:32back the clock on women's rights because
0:33in actuality all the men's rights
0:35activists I met none of them want to go
0:38back to the 50s or or take away you know
0:43women's right to vote or a woman's right
0:44to own property or get an education none
0:47of them want to want to take that away
0:49so so I think that's you know a big
0:51misconception that's you know kind of
0:54doctored up by the media to make people
0:56fear them well well I'm I've so many
0:59questions but like I want to I want to
1:01wait on so what just to give context
1:03like why don't you give us a background
1:04for our viewers who do don't know you or
1:06the red pill you know about your
1:09background and how you got to the point
1:10of making the documentary okay so my
1:14background I grew up in a small suburb
1:18of Seattle then I moved to Las Vegas for
1:20high school I started doing theater and
1:23on-camera acting classes in Vegas why
1:25did I yeah I guess I did yeah in
1:28Summerlin I actually loved it there's a
1:30great place to go to high school and and
1:32and still do everything you know that's
1:35legal and yeah not criminal it's still a
1:37fun place to be so when I turned 18 I
1:41was like alright sure I go to college
1:43you an LV and get a major in theatre and
1:48what what am I gonna do with that degree
1:49and so I talked to my acting coach and
1:51he said you know you're 18 you know LA
1:54you know girls in the earlier years
1:57definitely have a better chance of kind
1:58of getting the starlet roles and so he
2:02said just go out there start to audition
2:05and it you know I education and street
2:08smarts and and so I moved out to LA when
2:12I was 18 not knowing is so
2:13in town and live there until I was I
2:16think 23 and pursued acting and realized
2:21that I realize learned a lot of things
2:24but realized I wasn't a good actress
2:27because I think you know everything
2:30works out for a reason but you know I
2:32got kind of pigeon-holed in horror films
2:35and died a lot and I had a good scream
2:38so as part of that but wasn't a lot of
2:41horror films and had fun but you know I
2:45wasn't good so but what I really enjoyed
2:48about acting like the reason why I got
2:50into that and I don't think that's true
2:52for all actors but the reason I got into
2:55it was because I loved seeing this raw
3:00raaaarrh side of real people and their
3:04stories that you don't usually get to
3:07see and you know and prim and proper
3:09kind of you know films things like this
3:12or you know big big interviews and that
3:14sort of thing at least through film you
3:18can see those darker moments of what
3:20people go through and so my favorite
3:23films were ones that were based on true
3:25stories so boys don't cry monster Erin
3:28Brockovich you know I have a theme here
3:30of you know powerful what well mm
3:31powerful women strong female characters
3:38let's put it that way whether they're
3:39good or bad so that's why I got into
3:44acting was I loved seeing that rare side
3:47of the human experience so while I was
3:50living in LA I was very isolated I'm
3:53also an introvert so I kind of you know
3:54self isolate but I had an unlimited
3:56subscription to Blockbuster when that
3:58was still around oh my god I know so I
4:00exhausted every independent film with
4:02the Laurel on it and just wash them all
4:04and once I got through all those and
4:06like well what's next and so I started
4:08watching documentaries and I rented
4:10cheese's camp and that was the one that
4:12I was like ah like this is amazing
4:15because it is showing this the sight of
4:18humanity that isn't shown in that kind
4:20of raw light usually and I grew up in
4:23evangelical Christian so I really
4:26appreciated
4:27the filmmakers showed showed the side of
4:32you know Jesus camps and that kind of
4:34thing
4:34that in a way that was respectful to the
4:38people and didn't comment on you know
4:41what to make of it as an audience as a
4:43viewer you can just make whatever you
4:45want and really all all that inspires is
4:47conversations afterwards with the people
4:49who watched it with you or or at a
4:51different time and I I just really loved
4:54that and also it kind of gave me the
4:57maybe false confidence to think that I
5:03could make documentaries as well because
5:05it de films at home one camera no
5:07lighting traveling and I thought I could
5:10do this foolishly and so that's how I
5:14started my first documentary when I was
5:1621 years old it was called daddy I do it
5:19was about sexual education in America
5:21but it particularly looked at this
5:23movement called purity balls where girls
5:25as young as six years old would go to a
5:28prom like event with their father and
5:31vowed to remain a virgin until marriage
5:32and the father would vow to protect his
5:36daughter's chastity and either a ring or
5:38a white rose would be exchanged as you
5:41know a symbol of the promise and and I
5:43found this movement to be really
5:45fascinating because I would have done
5:47that if that was around when I was
5:49growing up but then as a 21 year old
5:53woman in LA I realized I don't know all
5:57right I questioned if it was really a
6:00good thing for girls to go through to
6:02put your sexual purity on that kind of
6:05pedestal and then what happens after
6:07especially if it if you lose in a way
6:10that you didn't want that to have happen
6:13or you know was different than your
6:16hopes and a great example of something
6:20that I think illustrates the issue with
6:25purity movements is there was a TEDx
6:28talk by Elizabeth Smart and I've liked
6:31Elizabeth Smart ever since and she was
6:33the one that was abducted she was yeah I
6:36forget hold she was maybe 12 but she was
6:39abducted and I think
6:40captive for nine months or something
6:44like that by a man and woman husband and
6:46wife and you know tortured her raped her
6:50you know all these things and she came
6:53out did the TEDx talk about this and
6:54it's great you I highly recommend it
6:56that she talked about how she knew she
6:59had opportunities to escape it to escape
7:02because they would go out in public and
7:04and you know she was told to be quiet by
7:06her captors but she did see
7:08opportunities to escape but partly the
7:10reason why she didn't was because she
7:12thought who would want me now because
7:14she grew up very strict Mormon and she
7:18thought I'm damaged goods now I you know
7:21what kind of life can I have after this
7:23and you know that's just so
7:25heartbreaking to me to like think that
7:27you know the way she was raised and
7:29taught about sex would lead her to
7:34believe that being with people who
7:35kidnapped her and tortured her and raped
7:37her would be a better than the rest of
7:40the world so that inspired this
7:42documentary well actually not not
7:44Elizabeth Smart I just really loved her
7:46as a person and also when I was younger
7:48people told me I looked like her so that
7:50that's what I kind of started learning
7:51about her story and but I yeah that's
7:57just an example of you know I think
7:59what's going on for a lot of women who
8:00grew up in very strict religious you
8:04know kind of sexually suppressed
8:06environments but then you also have this
8:09other swing of the you know embracing
8:13promiscuity and that sex before marriage
8:16isn't a problem and you know it's I'm
8:18not for that either I'm not I'm not for
8:21going so far where you don't teach
8:24people men and women both how to be very
8:30you know make educated decisions and
8:32know the consequences of those actions
8:33and you know of course even saying that
8:36I know can upset certain groups of
8:38people I'm not saying that you know you
8:40you bring you know some kind of rape or
8:45assault or anything I don't think any
8:46crime can happen to you
8:50when you're when you're yourself not you
8:53know
8:54well it's funny you bring that up and I
8:55know this is like kind of going off on a
8:58side note but it's funny I do think of
9:01that - because you hear if this is like
9:02what you're saying like another example
9:05of that might be
9:07oh don't dress super revealing if you
9:10don't want that kind of attention and
9:11you know some people would say and I
9:13think this is what you're saying like
9:14don't you can't say that because Pete
9:17women should be able to wear whatever
9:18they want without any type of
9:21repercussion which of course I totally
9:23agree with but then I've also thought
9:25like well would we be okay with a man
9:28walking around with his yeah thing out
9:31yeah we're wearing like you know those
9:33those like weird thongs or whatever like
9:34no I wouldn't be okay with that you know
9:36I'll be looking yeah and and that's you
9:39know when we talk about gender politics
9:41because that's really you know the area
9:42that I'm really interested in all my
9:44works been around that gender politics
9:47in general is what would I've come to
9:51understand since the red pill is you
9:53have to look at the bigger picture and
9:54something that really commonly helped me
9:57throughout making the red pill was
9:58reversing the genders in your mind for
10:01any scenario and asking yourself would
10:04that fly would that be okay and so your
10:06example was perfect that you know would
10:08we say that women should be able to wear
10:10whatever they want and and whatever
10:13happens to them you know a society's
10:15problem that they didn't ask for it by
10:18addressing that way but you know what
10:19would happen with you know a guy burying
10:23himself in a say a professional
10:25situation or atmosphere so you know I
10:29think it's if we're talking about
10:32equality we should then include every
10:34demographic and wonder you know would
10:36that be okay and in certain scenarios
10:38and with feminism because I was you know
10:43a feminist for ten years and then after
10:45making the red pill I revealed that I no
10:47longer consider myself a feminist and it
10:52was because it was the blinders were on
10:54towards women's issues and not you know
10:58looking at the broader scope of what's
11:00going on so you know I think looking at
11:04women's issues and girls issues which
11:06are still near and dear in my heart is
11:07important
11:08but we do need to open up the frame so
11:11when did you decide to make a
11:14documentary about the men's rights
11:16activist so okay so my first film was
11:20daddy I do about sex education and
11:22purity balls second feature documentary
11:24was called the right to love an American
11:25family which looked at gay marriage a
11:28gay couple in the San Francisco Bay Area
11:30and their two adopted kids and they were
11:32legally married and so the film came out
11:37before same-sex marriage was legalized
11:41across the nation so that came out in
11:442012 and then I went to this period of
11:47like okay what do I do next and I mean
11:49there was even a point where I was
11:51saying I was never gonna make a film
11:52again I was submitting my resume to
11:54being like video content creators for
11:57Facebook a different Silicon Valley well
12:01because I hadn't yet even after those
12:04two feature films I hadn't become a
12:07professional full time filmmaker where I
12:09could make ends meet just by making
12:11documentaries I mean documentaries are
12:12really the charitable genre of
12:16filmmaking you know it's it really has
12:18to just be a passion project that you're
12:20willing to pour your blood sweat and
12:22tears into without knowing if it'll ever
12:24make a return let alone support your
12:27life so you know I I hadn't found a you
12:32know financial stability yet after that
12:35work so I started doing commercial work
12:36I did a documentary commercial series
12:41for xfinity comcast and that was a lot
12:43of fun it was about a seven year old
12:46blind girl who watches and enjoys movies
12:50watches but enjoys films and so they
12:53wanted to recreate her version of The
12:56Wizard of Oz that's in her minds on a
12:58soundstage and so I did their
13:00documentary series for that I directed
13:02it and so that's called Emily's oz and I
13:06did a slew of other short projects I did
13:08a little infomercial thing for the
13:11International Museum of women and did a
13:15short film project about getting girls
13:17into STEM education has called the story
13:19of Goldie Blox it was a toy that was
13:21developed
13:21to kind of be like the the had the
13:25benefits of Legos but be attractive to
13:28girls and you were very much in women's
13:31women's issues yeah and I mean it's
13:34still you know love empowering girls and
13:36because you know that's what I wanted
13:38and needed when I was growing up too
13:40because I was very ambitious but I was
13:42also insecure of you know what could I
13:44do and and I do think there's some truth
13:46to if you see it then you can be it so
13:50you know I always really admired strong
13:54powerful women and when I was growing up
13:56and I wanted to become that and you know
13:58I've always been very career-driven so
14:00getting back to your question how did I
14:02start a film on the men's rights
14:03movement so yeah I went through this
14:07period where I was like I you know I
14:08think I should just get a standard
14:10nine-to-five job and call it quick quits
14:13on the documentary thing and and there
14:16was just a little part of me that
14:17thought okay I just have a little more
14:20steam in me what about another film and
14:23you know in all honesty I thought I was
14:26watching the other documentaries coming
14:27out at that time there was one called
14:29Marwan call that won a lot of awards at
14:32festivals and I watched another
14:34documentary called love me love my doll
14:36which is about these guys that have like
14:40sex dolls that they take care of and and
14:43it was really interesting documentary
14:44because you could tell that they had
14:47these dolls as like a relationship and
14:50intimacy part rather than just the
14:52physical act and you know so they're
14:54caring for it and talking to it like
14:56it's there what's up there Adams Ryan
14:58Gosling to a movie Lars and the real
15:00girl I need to see it so I don't know if
15:02it's a say I just know it was about a
15:03doll yeah yeah so there was a
15:05documentary called
15:06love me love my doll and so anyways
15:09around this time I was thinking well
15:10what makes what makes a really
15:13compelling interesting documentary and I
15:16was thinking about these films and how
15:17they're just really beautifully shot but
15:19but they were about these kind of
15:22uncomfortable things and he kind of
15:26underground ish type yes yeah and you
15:31know and then the characters really just
15:32became the stars of the film because
15:34they
15:35they were so different than the average
15:38person and it made you not want to turn
15:41it off now I want to look away because
15:42this is so fascinating so I I wanted to
15:46find something like that that's just a
15:47little bit uncomfortable but I also you
15:51know loved gender politics and and also
15:55around the same time for a while I was
15:57thinking about making a documentary
15:59about rape culture because well and I
16:03talk about this in the red pill but
16:05there was a story in Steubenville Ohio
16:07about a girl being sexually assaulted on
16:11camera and photos of this at a I think
16:13she was yeah in high school but it was
16:15at a party and that was just so
16:18infuriating to me because you know the
16:20press was saying well what was she
16:21wearing why did she drink so much at
16:24that young age she shouldn't be drinking
16:25at all and why did she go with a bunch
16:27of guys she didn't know with with
16:29leaving her girlfriends behind and and
16:31you know oddly enough side and quick
16:34tension I went out to dinner with my
16:37boyfriend at the time who's now my
16:39husband and I brought up the
16:41Steubenville rape case and this was
16:43before I started making the red pill but
16:45I brought it up to him and he started
16:48asking those questions well why was she
16:50drinking so much why did she leave her
16:52girlfriends at the other party to go
16:53with much of guys she didn't know to
16:54this other party and people only girl
16:56without a buddy system and and so I we
17:01were in a sushi restaurant it was a
17:06pivotal moment in our relationship was
17:07probably still today the worst fight we
17:09ever had and I just started crying like
17:12Reese Witherspoon and Legally Blonde
17:14whereas like I was I mean I was making a
17:18scene and then you know I went to talk
17:21to him the rest of the dinner and then
17:22we you know drove home because we were
17:24living together at that point and I
17:26threatened to leave in my car to go to
17:28my parents house to spend the night and
17:29he wouldn't let me leave me the car we
17:31want to talk it through and and you know
17:34we kind of just put a pin in it and I
17:37didn't it's not like I you know saw the
17:39light or changed in that night at all it
17:41was more just like alright we had this
17:43fight this happened but it always stuck
17:46with me about okay why did I react that
17:48way
17:48I did he asked those questions is he and
17:50misogynist is he a rape apologist
17:52because you know from the feminist
17:55perspective rape culture is a culture
17:58that condones or accepts rate the you
18:02know men raping women and that's the
18:03feminist perspective and and so you know
18:07I started to ask these questions is my
18:09boyfriend that I love that I want to
18:11marry you know that what feminism has
18:14taught me to fear and and you know we so
18:17we had more conversations and you told
18:19me you know of course not you know I'm
18:21not condoning what those guys did to her
18:24or that she's asking for it but you know
18:27you do have to you know just like guys
18:30have to be aware of their surroundings
18:32when they're walking down a dark
18:34alleyway at night and actually you know
18:36robbings and homicides men are far more
18:39likely to be victims of you know robbing
18:43or at gunpoint and things like that so I
18:46so you know I started to try to expand
18:50my mind and see his perspective but
18:52that's kind of what so all this jumbled
18:55together you know I wanted to make
18:56another documentary the rape culture
18:58thing my boyfriend and our big fight and
19:00then I I was I was researching rape
19:03culture and I was wanting to figure out
19:06well what is perpetuating and causing
19:07this and that's when I stumbled down the
19:09internet rabbit hole of finding men's
19:12rights website called a voice for men
19:14calm and they were the largest and
19:16fastest growing men's rights online hub
19:19and by far you know especially at the
19:22time they were the most provocative and
19:24and the person who started it Paul Elam
19:27who we interview in the red pill he's
19:29you know definitely a provocateur he
19:32what he says things to get a rise out of
19:34people and and you know what I
19:36definitely went through my own kind of
19:38understanding and transition of what I
19:41initially thought of him - now how I've
19:43kind of made peace with who he is and
19:46how he acts but so that's that's
19:50basically how I found the men's rights
19:52movement I thought I was going to be
19:54making a documentary about misogynist
19:57creeps that was gonna be you know that I
20:00was going to film fly on the wall
20:02and just let them be pigs and I thought
20:06okay maybe they're misogynist selves
20:08yeah and you're gonna document that yeah
20:11so that that's really what I went in
20:13thinking and you know even to this day
20:15like if I think really hard about it I
20:17could have I could have made that film
20:20if that was my goal and you know try
20:24tried harder to find the the you know
20:28the anonymous trolls online and and say
20:30that they're men's rights activists and
20:32thrown away all the very reasonable
20:35interviews that I got with men's rights
20:37activists and the issues that they talk
20:39about that you know I ended up really
20:41sympathizing with so you know I that
20:48could have been the film is just you
20:50know finding the creepiest guys and
20:52getting in caught off guard and with
20:54creative editing and frumpy music to
20:56make them you know look a certain way
20:58well why didn't you make that film
21:01because when I really started it took
21:05three and a half years to make the film
21:07oh well and I think when you sit with
21:09your your video footage and everything
21:13you've learned and in fact check and and
21:15go down multiple internet rabbit holes
21:17to really figure out what they're trying
21:19to say once you do all that work and
21:21really sit with it and consider it and
21:24have more of an open mind but ultimately
21:27be seeking truth there was no way I
21:31could make the the front be misogynist
21:34Pig documentary that probably would have
21:37gone to many high-profile film festivals
21:40and been distributed on big platforms
21:42and you know I think that actually would
21:47have been a more successful film because
21:50of the way mainstream media has gone on
21:52gender politics right now but with that
21:55said the red pill still is very way more
22:00successful than I ever imagined it could
22:02be and I think why is because it speaks
22:05to so many people's real-life
22:08experiences around the world it's not
22:10just an American issue it's world and
22:14and it also
22:16rolls up a lot of people so that also
22:18had something to do with getting it
22:20talked about it is it it hit a lot of
22:23different heartstrings or nerves for
22:26different people well you said something
22:28in your TED talk I think it was that we
22:32talked about here all the time in
22:33regards to journalists and interviewers
22:36today you said that you realize that
22:39when you were interviewing these men you
22:41realize you weren't actually listening
22:44to them and that you were anticipating
22:46are you able to talk about that yeah
22:50that so I talk about that in my TEDx
22:54talk I did a TEDx Marin talk and that is
22:57probably the most accurate summary of
23:00where I've ended up since making the red
23:03pill and you know so for people who want
23:06to attack the red pill movie feel free
23:10to but really base it on you know what
23:13is said that you're disagreeing with but
23:16if you want to attack Who I am as a
23:17person then watch my TEDx talk first and
23:19tell me what you disagree with about
23:20that because that's really my my summary
23:24of my beliefs now but but yeah I I
23:27realized when I was making the red pill
23:30that every interview I entered with
23:33men's rights activists I was I was
23:37trying to get them to say something that
23:40would lead to that frumpy misogynistic
23:43Pig type documentary and you know I
23:47wasn't pushing for it or I wasn't I
23:50wasn't going to do anything that would
23:52you know try to get them to say a few
23:54words that I could then edit later to
23:56make it sound like a sentence that they
23:57hate women or want to turn back the
23:59clock on women's rights because in
24:00actuality all the men's rights activists
24:02I met none of them want to go back to
24:06the 50s or or take away you know women's
24:10right to vote or a woman's right to own
24:11property or get an education none of
24:13them want to want to take that away so
24:16so I think that's you know a big
24:18misconception that's you know kind of
24:20doctored up by the media to make people
24:22fear them and actually a lot of them
24:25were pro-choice a lot of them
24:30some of them started out as feminist
24:31then and then became men's rights
24:33activists because they saw a need for
24:36that discussion and they didn't see it
24:37happening within within feminism so I
24:43and it was so interesting because when
24:46you said that when I heard you say that
24:47I immediately thought of that interview
24:51with Jordan Peterson and what was that
24:53other interviewer happy new happy new
24:55yeah yes and I was like that was
24:58literally the description of what I
25:01think why that interview went so viral
25:02is because it has an interviewer trying
25:05to who had already anticipated what he
25:07was saying which is not what he was
25:08saying right so I thought that was so
25:10interesting that you recognized that in
25:12yourself yeah yeah and because I did
25:15want to in my own feminist mind I wanted
25:19to summarize their views as that when
25:23that men's rights activists believe
25:25women are inferior or that women can't
25:28be CEOs or that women you know or are
25:31only good as mothers and stay-at-home
25:34housewives like but but that wasn't what
25:37they were saying at all and and it their
25:43their views are so much more nuanced and
25:46that's why I think the men's rights
25:49movement and and anything that goes
25:51against the feminist narrative why it's
25:54so quickly written off or attacked is
25:57because because it's so nuanced it can't
26:00be a tweet it can't be a meme with just
26:04you know one stat without a citation you
26:07know some it's some of them partly what
26:10got me so involved in feminism was the
26:14start of social media so I started I
26:17moved out to LA in 2004 and then around
26:212004-2005 that's really when I started
26:23becoming a hardcore staunch feminist
26:28that would evangelize to my friends and
26:30a lot of my friends were put off that I
26:33was calling myself a feminist and now
26:35they are feminists and hate me for doing
26:39it or not a feminist yeah yeah but you
26:42know I was
26:43like a very proud feminist and that was
26:46around the start of you know I think I
26:48just got a Facebook account around you
26:51know 2003 maybe and then I think Twitter
26:53came out a couple years later and then
26:56Instagram after that and and so with all
26:59these additional social media platforms
27:01each one I would immediately follow all
27:04the the feminists that I admired and
27:06adored and then they would post these
27:08memes and infographics and that's what I
27:12think really became the like the leaflet
27:16you know someone's canvassing or you
27:19know the door-to-door salesmen it's like
27:21they give you a leaflet the memes on
27:23social media was what got me to be to be
27:26a feminist because I read about the wage
27:28gap you know that women make 77 cents on
27:30a man's dollar without a citation
27:34without any you know link of where to
27:37find the source of that stat and it was
27:39just being a meme and and it would roll
27:41you up and now you know I no longer see
27:44that to be you know the full story so so
27:49you know I think that's why men's rights
27:51activists and anyone who goes against
27:54the feminist narrative has a hard time
27:55because it's so nuanced and you really
27:57can't summarize it not even in a three
27:59minute you know mainstream broadcast
28:03interview like you need kind of a
28:05situation like this where you have
28:06unlimited time to go into anything well
28:09in the film you have you show your video
28:12diaries like documenting your inner
28:16struggle like what was that like sorting
28:20through sorting through all of that on
28:22camera and in the middle of the
28:25filmmaking process well and that's a
28:27question to is at what point in the
28:29filmmaking process were you feet were
28:32you starting to change your perspective
28:34was it post or was it during filming it
28:38was definitely during filming I got it
28:41there was a time when I counted how many
28:43video diaries I had throughout filming
28:45and I can't remember the number now but
28:46it was more than the interviews we had
28:48oh we had 44 interviews and more video
28:51Terry's than that and you know let me
28:54just say I did every editor out
28:57favored by not making them go through
28:59all my video diaries because I did the
29:00red pill myself
29:01oh but yeah because I don't want to put
29:04anyone through that torture but but you
29:08know I am I think having the video
29:11diaries is what allowed me to remember
29:14what my views were and why I thought
29:17that way and why now my present-day self
29:20looking back on those Diaries sees that
29:23you know my views weren't necessarily
29:26malicious it was just uninformed you
29:30know so so really helped me also kind of
29:35be in touch with the audience I want to
29:37reach which is the you know the good
29:40hearted advocate for fairness and in
29:47regards to gender in particular that
29:50that wants to see you know justice and
29:52fairness for both genders or all genders
29:55however you want to put it but and you
29:58know so that I think that helped me
30:00think of who my audience is that I want
30:02to reach and you know I I actually don't
30:04know if I achieved that goal of like
30:07reaching people that are like who I was
30:10when I started making the red pill in
30:122013 when I was 27 because you know I
30:17think the mainstream media has done a
30:19more effective job at at smearing my
30:23name and the reputation of the film to
30:25prevent people like that from watching
30:27it and it still it really saddens me to
30:29see you know how many forums online of
30:32people just repeating the the lies from
30:35the mainstream media about the film to
30:38make sure people don't go and watch it
30:40themselves and so you know but but I do
30:44know I I reached a few people like me
30:47who you know started out as a feminist
30:49and really just wanted to to see justice
30:52and fairness and and had no idea what
30:54was going on for men and boys and that
30:56it is you know much bigger picture and
31:00can I bring up something that's kind of
31:03new in my of course that process so I
31:07mean one thing that I love to do is
31:10see the archived versions of what
31:13capilla pages because we didn't even
31:16know there were orchid versions yeah so
31:18there's there's a website called I think
31:19it's archive dot is I asked and you can
31:23basically anyone online can archive a
31:26page whenever they want to and using
31:28that website but I started realizing
31:32that because you know starting the red
31:34pill in 2013 the Wikipedia page for the
31:36men's rights movement was you know just
31:38a little blurb and it was it was very
31:41small and it didn't have the kind of
31:42information it has now but also feminism
31:46and the different waves and everything
31:48so I just went to the latest Wikipedia
31:52page for feminism today to see you know
31:55what's changed and because it's it
31:57almost seems like every month it's it's
31:58a new page but the latest definition of
32:02feminism they have is so it says that
32:06feminism has had many different waves
32:08but they share the common interest in
32:11goal of they share the common goal to
32:14define establish and achieve political
32:18economic and social equality of the
32:20sexes and so I was I was looking at and
32:24I was thinking okay you know after five
32:26six years working on the red pill and
32:28everything since then what do I think of
32:31that and there's just one word that says
32:36it all in that define feminism's goal is
32:41to define establish and achieve
32:43political economic and social equality
32:45of the sexes that is interesting did
32:48they do
32:48define that's absolutely true and you
32:51know I would say that they also have
32:52achieved wonderful things that I'm
32:54absolutely grateful for as a woman but
32:58that really is I'm glad that that's on
33:01their the Wikipedia page right now
33:03because I think that that's why I'm not
33:08feminist anymore to summarize it is
33:11because the way that that feminism has
33:13defined gender equality really is with
33:16the blinders on for female victims men
33:19male perpetrators and doesn't look at
33:23male victims
33:24female perpetrators and/or male victims
33:27of male perpetrators or female
33:29perpetrators with female victims it it
33:32it doesn't see it has a blind spot for
33:34that so you know when I was in Australia
33:38doing my tour which I saw I know I don't
33:42say this lightly or I don't want to say
33:44this and sent it in sensitively but I do
33:47feel like I had PTSD from going to
33:50Australia I don't know if I can ever go
33:51back but I know there's wonderful people
33:53area it was supported me and this is
33:54from your press store yeah you know just
33:57even thinking about that trip like
33:59really upsets me because it was it was
34:01difficult I but just I'm sorry I mustn't
34:07I try I thought so the interview in
34:10Australia oh yes so so I was on a show
34:13called the project which is kind of like
34:16a late-night younger millennial audience
34:19show there and and it was a long
34:23interview that was the NetID down so
34:26they didn't show everything that they
34:27asked and that I said to them which is
34:28unfortunate and they've never released
34:30the raw footage so I hear that happens a
34:31lot it does send us very infuriating
34:34so I highly suggest anyone who talks
34:36about these issues to to record a copy
34:38just for themselves to have proof of
34:40what they said but but on the project
34:44they they had a really a huge nationwide
34:49story that kind of became the catalyst
34:52to help raise awareness and raise
34:56funding for female victims of domestic
34:59violence and it was the story of a woman
35:02named Rosie Beatty Rosie batty who her
35:06ex partner ended up shooting and killing
35:11their son and so this story which was
35:15you know many years before I was in
35:18Australia doing the project this story
35:20was brought up by one of the female
35:22hosts on on the show of the project and
35:24she said well you know Cassie we have a
35:27lot of issues in in Australia here with
35:30female victims in domestic violence for
35:32instance where we Rosie Beatty and her
35:34son was killed and and I had never heard
35:36of this story before
35:38instantly I thought well that's
35:39interesting that it's the Sun that that
35:42was killed in this domestic violence
35:43scenario and it it's the catalyst that
35:46led to this big nationwide you know
35:48violence against women initiative so I
35:51you know very innocently calmly
35:54innocently and calmly brought it up on
35:57the show that well that's interesting
35:58it's a sign it goes to show that male
36:00men can be victims of domestic domestic
36:03violence as well and apparently that was
36:07a wrong thing to say in Australia
36:09because well it was just that's like you
36:13know feminists in Australia that is the
36:15the story that you know is their banner
36:18that they hold to say why they need you
36:21know help in fund it which of course I'm
36:23not saying they don't need help in
36:25funding for female victims of domestic
36:26violence it's it's just interesting to
36:28me that that's the story that became the
36:30poster child so to speak of the movement
36:33so I brought up you know that it was a
36:35boy victim and and so that one of the
36:38hosts equipped back saying so you're
36:41looking at it not like it's a male that
36:44was the one that murdered this child and
36:47you know it was a very quick and
36:49on-the-fly interview so I didn't in the
36:52moment have time to really process and
36:54explain my thoughts but now you know a
36:55year later it's I think what a lot of
37:01people don't get about the men's rights
37:03movement or about the the red pill movie
37:05is that you know we're not the film the
37:09red pill isn't saying that men don't do
37:12a tortious things or or that we
37:15shouldn't you know talk about that or
37:16care about that but it's looking at male
37:18victims that are rarely discussed with
37:20compassion and empathy and and a drive
37:23to find solutions or to help them and so
37:27I think that's what needs to be
37:29understood in this you know discussion
37:33about men's rights and men's issues is
37:35that it men's rights activists are
37:37looking at the victims and and yes they
37:39will say that men are a majority of
37:43perpetrators and a lot of different
37:44criminal situations but you know a great
37:48response to that is that just because
37:51you know for instance like 99% of war
37:55deaths are men you know and a feminist
37:58would say well aren't men sending us to
38:02war and it's men's fault
38:04one man's rights activists explained it
38:06to me because I asked him that question
38:08he said well it doesn't mean it's not a
38:10men's rights issue just because you know
38:13the people in power happened to be a
38:14majority of men for instance he said
38:17female genital mutilation is a woman's
38:20issue that that feminism has been
38:23talking about in fighting against for
38:25you know decades and female genital
38:29mutilation within those communities are
38:31most often perpetuated and influenced
38:35and even acted out by the mothers and
38:38midwives in those communities than
38:40grandmothers they're the ones really
38:41pushing for that but it doesn't make it
38:44not a woman's issue because the people
38:47who are really pushing for it our
38:48majority women so you know sorry where I
38:54end up now I am NOT a men's rights
38:55activist because I I don't think they
38:57have you know the full scope either
39:00although I think a lot of men's rights
39:03activists you know for instance Warren
39:04Farrell although he wouldn't call
39:06himself a men's rights activist oh he
39:08doesn't know he says he's a gender
39:11transition gender transition activist or
39:14gender roles transition activist gender
39:16transition activist sounds like yeah
39:18different gender I'm trying to remember
39:20what the term was no oh I'm sorry Warren
39:23I but he's looking for making it
39:28acceptable for men to take on more you
39:30know feminine type roles and that'd be
39:32okay so some more men that are
39:35elementary school teachers or nurses
39:37yeah you know all these different fields
39:40that are female dominated that you don't
39:42see the same kind of affirmative action
39:43programs to try to get more men in those
39:45fields but there there are a lot of
39:49men's rights activists who do see the
39:53bigger picture but they they claim the
39:54title men's rights activist to
39:56specifically work on an area that's not
40:00talked about a lot or doesn't have a lot
40:02of support or funding and the National
40:05Coalition
40:05for men based out of San Diego they're
40:07really great about finding the the
40:12inequalities in the law and then going
40:15to fight that so right now one of their
40:17latest I believe successful victories
40:21was to they were they were countering
40:28the the all-male Selective Service the
40:31draft so still to this day every
40:35eighteen year old boy has to register
40:37for the Selective Service in the United
40:39States in in the case that there's a
40:41draft in the last time we had a draft
40:42was in Vietnam and I know a lot of
40:45people especially feminists today would
40:48say well we don't have the draft anymore
40:49so why does it matter well it matters
40:51because still every 18-year old boy has
40:53to register and if he doesn't he can be
40:55fined up to two hundred fifty thousand
40:56dollars or spend up to five years in
40:58jail really yeah I know and as a woman
41:01you never hear about that or think about
41:02that so I could be wrong but did the
41:05literally days ago a week ago did they
41:07maybe this is what you were saying
41:08before didn't they just pass something
41:09that says that no women are also well so
41:12this is yeah this is very current I
41:13think in the last few weeks the National
41:16Coalition for men did successfully sue
41:20and win so now the judge is deciding
41:25whether or not they're going to
41:26eliminate this Selective Service
41:28entirely or add women into the Selective
41:30Service and you know I don't I don't
41:34have a position on that so I won't talk
41:36about that but I will say that in a lot
41:38of other countries women do are drafted
41:42but they're drafted into what's called
41:43war work so it's administrative type
41:46positions and and you know the feminist
41:50movement has whenever men's rights
41:52activists you know because they started
41:54around the 70s that's been around for a
41:55while so whenever men's artists
41:57activists brought up the the draft or
41:59the all-male Selective Service feminists
42:01would retorted by saying well women
42:03can't even serve in combat positions so
42:05that's why women aren't drafted it's
42:07because they can't serve in combat
42:09positions but then that was changed I
42:11think in twenty thirteen or fourteen now
42:14women can serve in combat positions but
42:16it's still you know taken a while for
42:19the lot to catch up and then ask itself
42:21well then should we include women and
42:24the Selective Service if they can serve
42:25in every position in the military now so
42:30you know I I don't know what my position
42:32would be on that I know that there's
42:34obviously a lot to consider because
42:36women of childbearing age can have a lot
42:40of complications if they were drafted
42:42into you know something that they
42:45weren't prepared or mmm physically able
42:47to do so but you know I think these kind
42:51of discussions are valuable
42:52well let's I mean go ahead and talk
42:54about the men's issues that you do
42:56highlight in the film because there's
42:58there's quite a few of them and and I
43:02did want to say to your point about I
43:06forgot what I think it was someone's
43:08reaction to the film you were making you
43:11know I was telling I've just been
43:15telling some people that I was having on
43:17a filmmaker who made a movie about the
43:21men's rights activist hmm I got some
43:24intense reactions from people who didn't
43:26even know who you were or let alone the
43:29red pill and so kind of kind of on the
43:33same note of talking about the reactions
43:34to the film like were you expecting this
43:37reaction that you received hmm well I
43:44guess it came in stages because one year
43:48before the film was released in theaters
43:50for a limited theatrical run I did a
43:54Kickstarter campaign specifically for
43:56post-production funding for the film
43:58because I already been filming and I
43:59even started editing the film before I
44:02launched this Kickstarter campaign to
44:03raise post-production funds and so the
44:06Kickstarter was really my first kind of
44:09market survey on how people would react
44:12to the film and I really did think at
44:15that time this was in I think October
44:172015 I really did think that the people
44:22who supported my previous work would
44:24support the idea of the red pill you
44:27know not I I wasn't expecting anyone you
44:31know to
44:32funded like if they want to that's great
44:34but but I at least thought I would have
44:37support as far as like verbal you know
44:40affirmation like oh good that's great
44:42that you're doing this so I submitted my
44:44Kickstarter campaign and my little video
44:46to all the people I'd gotten in contact
44:48with from my previous work in women's
44:50issues and also some of the press that
44:52really promoted my previous films and
44:56pretty much gosh you know a fat throw
44:58statistic out there'd be about 95% of
45:02them hated it you know just hated the
45:04idea of it and one press resource in
45:08particular I'm trying to think if I
45:13could say that well it was a big online
45:17publication that supported a previous
45:19film of mine and so I sent her the
45:21Kickstarter asking if they'd be willing
45:23to share it because I thought the video
45:24in itself was really interesting to
45:26share and she responded by saying if you
45:29showed men's rights activists being
45:31violent in the video then I would share
45:33it on our site but but it's it doesn't
45:36show that so we're not gonna post it and
45:38so I thought that was really interesting
45:39reaction because it's you know you're
45:42basically saying that this is the
45:44political you know view that we want to
45:49promote and show and you know my my
45:54video was really just showing that we're
45:55gonna look into the men's rights
45:56movement and men's issues and have you
46:00know a nuanced discussion from all
46:02different perspectives and I thought
46:03that in itself would be share worthy but
46:08now they wanted you know just the teaser
46:11video to show men's rights activists as
46:14violence so have you ever seen dude like
46:18what I guess because that's that's the
46:20perception of m-ras right of the men's
46:23rights is right is that they promote
46:25violence and rape culture like you were
46:28saying or whatnot
46:29did you see any of that like where what
46:32where where does this criticism come
46:34from I think it comes from the
46:36provocateurs in the movement that people
46:39like Paul Elam that that uses you know
46:45language and
46:46and headlines to get attention and cuz I
46:51don't he'll hate that I say this but
46:54it's it I think of it like the like the
46:56kid on the playground who's pulling the
46:58pigtails because they want attention
47:00because no one like there's other issues
47:01going on but but they just want to get
47:04your attention and nothing else is
47:05working and so so I think you know Paul
47:09has used this approach of too shocked
47:12and appalled to get eyes on his pages
47:14which you know you could criticize them
47:18all you want it worked that's what got
47:20the most press for the men's rights
47:21movement granted it was very negative
47:24press but before a voice for men you
47:27know they had a men's liberation
47:29movement in the 70s and then along with
47:31you know the second wave feminism that
47:34kind of died out you know 80s and 90s
47:37people were you know comfortable with
47:39the working woman and you know to then
47:42be a feminist was to be living in the
47:44past you know we got all the rights just
47:46you know be your own person it was very
47:48much an individualistic time and in the
47:5090s the good old days but and and you
47:57know the the men's especially fathers
47:59rights they're still trying to do a lot
48:00of work in improving things because the
48:04family court system was still very
48:07corrupt and and hadn't ever really had
48:10you know an activist movement to that
48:13gained traction in the nineties yeah
48:16that even in the 70s but you know that
48:19the men's liberation movement was trying
48:21to get attention on fathers rights and
48:23never really broke into the mainstream
48:25media to have it be a national or
48:28worldwide conversation but people who
48:31experienced it firsthand definitely knew
48:32what was going on and and then here you
48:36know with social media around you know I
48:39became feminists around 2004
48:41I think voice for men gosh I can't
48:43remember what year they came out but I
48:45want to say around like 2006 78
48:48something like that and but Paul was you
48:52know he was a pitbull that came out with
48:54just you know fireworks blazing and
48:56everything and what are some of the
48:57things that he would write or
48:59say that makes him this provocateur I
49:03actually don't yeah well so I address
49:05the the most commonly sound the most
49:11commonly used cherry-pick picked
49:12soundbite in his articles that really
49:15riled people up so I addressed that in
49:17the red pill movie and the soundbite was
49:19Paul Elam saying I declare October to be
49:23bash a violent [ __ ] month okay and so
49:27that was in an article called sorry that
49:31if I talk about a voice from random
49:32folly limbs writings I was gonna be a
49:33lot of curse words so I'm sorry oh no
49:35that's fine okay but I think I think the
49:38title was called if you see a Jezebel in
49:40the road the road run the [ __ ] down or
49:42something like that and so he's
49:44referring to the website Jezebel which
49:46is you know was a very big feminist
49:50website I think it's having trouble now
49:51but I was you know an avid subscriber of
49:54Jezebel when I was a feminist and so
49:56that article was actually a I guess
50:01parody or satire on this other Jezebel
50:04article from something like 2007
50:07we're on Jezebel's website they they
50:11bring up a statistic that came out
50:15saying that of non reciprocated domestic
50:19violence seventy percent of the violence
50:22was perpetuated by the woman and so you
50:26know bravo to them for bringing up this
50:29statistic because I think that is
50:31interesting and fascinating and you
50:33don't hear about that so non
50:36reciprocated violence so basically a
50:38woman who hits her stabbed or threw
50:41something at a man and he did not
50:43reciprocate the violence so 70 percent
50:46perpetrated by women and so Jezebel the
50:49writer at Jezebel said we're gonna do it
50:51impromptu survey in our office to see
50:53how many women have hurt or you know
50:56physically assaulted a man in their life
50:58and within that article they bring up
51:02quite a few women I guess who worked at
51:04Jezebel saying that they you know
51:07slapped them they punched them that they
51:09I think through their computer or
51:11something else like that and
51:13and and then at the end of it they're
51:16basically making light of it saying that
51:18the guys asked for it or deserved it and
51:21you know it's really a horrible shocking
51:25article that I didn't even discover
51:27until I started looking into the men's
51:28rights movement and so Paul was trying
51:33to point to the hypocrisy of that that
51:36one of the largest feminist websites
51:38does about making light of abusing men
51:40and so here Paul comes back with you
51:43know wanting to you know point point out
51:46the hypocrisy but with very shocking
51:49language that a lot of people within the
51:52men's rights movement do not agree with
51:54his tactics either I think that's not
51:57commonly talked about where you know
51:59it's not like Paul Elam is the yeah the
52:04leader of some kind of cult like there's
52:06a lot of men's rights activists that do
52:08not like his approach his style but then
52:11he also does have you know a lot of
52:13followers but as far as the whole men's
52:15movement you know it's not like they're
52:17all bowing down and approving of what he
52:19does so in your experience like you said
52:22when you were sitting down with all the
52:23footage the vast majority of men were
52:26not like that they didn't promote any of
52:28that yeah yeah definitely and you know
52:31the men's rights activists that I sought
52:33out were people who were long standing
52:38names within the movement and that we're
52:40doing you know a lot of work within
52:42men's rights and like I mentioned
52:45National Coalition for men they really
52:47do focus on the the legal battles and
52:50you know social media is not their
52:53strong point and so I think when it's
52:55just a bunch of you know lawyers yeah
52:58yeah and you know they're working
53:00they're doing a lot of work and they
53:02don't because they're so busy they don't
53:04have the time to tweet about it or to do
53:06interviews and so when you know the
53:08mainstream media jokes and says that
53:10they're a bunch of whiners that don't
53:12accomplish anything it's it's really sad
53:15to see that because it's not true and
53:17there are a lot of people working within
53:19men's rights that work really hard and
53:21put a lot of their own money as like
53:23donations charitable donations into
53:25helping
53:26you know people in tough scenarios so
53:29issues like paternity fraud mm-hmm
53:32wrongful paternity and you know custody
53:35battles false accusation well let's
53:37let's talk about all these issues
53:38because because like I was saying like
53:41there's there's so many of them that I
53:45don't I just don't think most people
53:48know I didn't know I think until I saw
53:50your documentary and I think they're
53:54very important points to put out there
53:56whether I don't know whether people it
53:58makes people upset or not I think that
54:00they're important to at least be out in
54:01the conversation so I mean we can I mean
54:05even starting with like like like
54:06workplace mm-hmm
54:08you say that like 93 percent of
54:10workplace fatalities are men yes like
54:13that's that's very big yes yeah and I
54:17think I'm in a ballpark of the right
54:20numbers here but I remembered one at one
54:26of the common talking points within
54:27feminism at least when I was a feminist
54:29was so saying from like 2004 to 2013
54:33when I started the red pill around that
54:35time a lot of feminists would say there
54:37was a common talking point saying that
54:39if you combine 9/11 the Iraq and
54:43Afghanistan wars within that time period
54:46more women were killed by an intimate
54:48partner than people killed by known
54:51eleven and those two wars combined
54:53during that time and you know when you
54:55hear that it's like oh my gosh that is a
54:58big that's our terror issue that's our
55:02that's our war yeah so so while making
55:05the red pill I started to to actually do
55:08the numbers and you know and I'm not
55:10saying this to discount
55:11you know women who've been in that kind
55:13of situation or died from that that's
55:16horrible and you know me I have a lot of
55:20you know passion for those issues as
55:22well
55:23but so during those years I forget how
55:27many years it is now a bit and say it's
55:28around a decade it was roughly uh you
55:32know around 2000 give or take women that
55:35were killed by a partner each year
55:39during that time
55:40and so I was thinking okay well let's
55:43look into the men's issues and so then I
55:44looked up workplace deaths and it was
55:46around like five to six thousand a year
55:49five to six thousand a year yeah that
55:52died in a workplace death and you know I
55:55don't necessarily know what to make of
55:58that or what to what the audience
56:00hearing that should think of that it's
56:02just an interesting perspective that
56:04that you know and I could see feminists
56:08saying well the guy chose that dangerous
56:10job the woman did not well and that
56:14could be debatable too but you know the
56:15woman did not choose to be with that man
56:17or be in that situation or couldn't
56:19leave or something like that a guy could
56:20have left his job he could have found
56:22something safer but we need people doing
56:25those jobs and you know we have our
56:27first responders with all the fires here
56:29in California and we have you know
56:30people doing that electric work and we
56:33have we still have coal miner is like
56:35you don't hear about that now with you
56:36know us being in our safe little boxes
56:38on our laptops you don't you don't see
56:41that firsthand so you don't think about
56:42it but the oil rigs and the crab
56:45crabbing boats and all these really
56:48dangerous positions and yes they are the
56:50people who work in them choose that
56:53position oftentimes because it's better
56:55paid and it's you know they say they're
56:59strong and incapable and they had the
57:02opportunity or they knew someone in the
57:03industry and they got in that way and it
57:05and the money is attractive or whatnot
57:08but whatever the reason they got into
57:10that industry people do need to work in
57:12that industry and you know we don't when
57:15we talk about the glass ceiling
57:17dr. Warren Farrell says there's the
57:19glass cellar that that
57:21where is feminists feminism's you know
57:27one to need an advocacy to get more
57:30women on crap ships or work in the power
57:34lines or what I can't help but bring
57:37this to what I think is probably the
57:39most mainstream feminist grievance which
57:42is the gender wage gap hmm because when
57:45I was a feminist I heard that 70 cents
57:48to a dollar statistic and I know that to
57:50this day it's it's still very much a
57:53point but I can't remember when I heard
57:57it first heard of it maybe maybe
57:58christina hoff sommers a long time ago I
58:00can't remember I first heard of it but
58:02when I heard that like when you actually
58:03break that down it gets much more
58:05nuanced and complex and this is one of
58:09the points that I hear which is that a
58:13lot of these jobs well that first of all
58:14that I mean don't feel free to you know
58:16take over but first of all that that
58:17number was taken in complete in in macro
58:25they took all of the male salaries all
58:26of the female salaries all of the
58:28industries together and just compared
58:30those salaries they didn't do it job by
58:32job and then so knowing that that's a
58:36big difference because of what you just
58:38said not a lot of men are working these
58:41really really dangerous jobs you know I
58:43you know if you're saying feminists are
58:45saying to you but they choose the dude
58:48they choose to do those jobs it's like
58:50well yes that's kind of the point is
58:53that men and females are choosing to do
58:56these jobs that we're doing and there's
58:58differences in these jobs yeah and so
59:01that whole explanation
59:02you know what would ninety-three percent
59:04you know fatalities because the more
59:05dangerous jobs I mean I think that's an
59:07important thing to be out there yeah and
59:09and the countries that have been
59:12evaluated in gender equality kind of
59:16like I don't know what you call it like
59:19equity like or it's like a like a rating
59:25of how well their gender equality is in
59:27each country the the countries with the
59:30the best or the highest rating for
59:31equality actually have the biggest
59:34biggest gender wage gap because people
59:39are more free to choose the occupation
59:41that they want to go into and we find
59:44that you know a lot of women care about
59:46the work they go into and want to help
59:48other people they're very you know
59:50empathetic and giving and nurturing
59:52people so they go into nursing instead
59:55of a surgeon or they go into being an
59:57elementary school teacher instead of you
59:59know professor and and so you know I
1:00:03think you know of course when
1:00:07we talk about gender everything's kind
1:00:08of generalized and there's a danger in
1:00:10that but the that's also how we we look
1:00:13at the differences is in the bell curve
1:00:15and in the broad scope but I think you
1:00:19know in the broad scope generalizing
1:00:21women do tend to really value fulfilment
1:00:24in the work they do and often that means
1:00:26sacrificing pay and you know men really
1:00:31value pay and we could you know analyze
1:00:33that for four years on why and how and
1:00:36and what causes that and I think that's
1:00:38really fun you know to analyze but you
1:00:42know it is a way to get status it's a
1:00:45way to get you know a good catch of a
1:00:47woman and and to gain respect from
1:00:50people's to have you know a bigger
1:00:52wallet well that's interesting that's
1:00:54interesting that you you say that
1:00:56because I was listening to I can never
1:00:59remember who I was listening to but
1:01:01someone was talking about like dating
1:01:04and modern dating and they're saying
1:01:06that you know even though women are
1:01:07becoming more educated we're in the
1:01:10workplace more were rising the ranks
1:01:12more like probably not as quickly as
1:01:14some people would like but we are rising
1:01:15the ranks more that even with all that
1:01:19they find that the vast majority of
1:01:22women when dating still want are trying
1:01:25to date up yeah and that makes it very
1:01:28difficult for men because well I mean
1:01:30first of all we know we're taking a lot
1:01:32of the jobs that were used to only go to
1:01:35men mm-hmm you know is just more
1:01:36competition and we're more educated and
1:01:38so that makes it more difficult for them
1:01:41yeah which I thought was just very
1:01:43interesting yeah hypergamy hypercam oh
1:01:46so it is marrying up and status and you
1:01:49know that's oh maybe I heard it from
1:01:50your documentary yeah that's a
1:01:56fascinating thing and it's you know
1:02:00these kind of topics are really find on
1:02:03me I don't know what people want to call
1:02:04it now it's like dark web or the
1:02:06intellectual
1:02:11but it's I think you know the reason
1:02:14it's kind of in this darker part of the
1:02:16web is because it's politically
1:02:17incorrect to talk about today and and
1:02:19that's you know what's politically
1:02:20incorrect
1:02:21it's just you know the bigger and bigger
1:02:22bag of topics but I you know hypergamy
1:02:26in the the process of marrying up is
1:02:29something that's gone on throughout you
1:02:31know millennia and and it still exists
1:02:35today and and it is harder for guys I
1:02:37think because women are out earning
1:02:40degrees and really you know excelling in
1:02:45all these different areas it Warren
1:02:47Farrell I keep bringing him up because
1:02:48he's done a lot of great research but he
1:02:50did a film or a sorry a book called why
1:02:53men earned more and he talks about how
1:02:57if you actually look at single woman
1:02:59women versus single men single women out
1:03:02earn single men and you know I've I've
1:03:06kind of pondered over why that is
1:03:08because you know I was I was kind of a I
1:03:10was a single owner for a long time
1:03:12before meeting my husband and I was
1:03:14always very career-driven and and I was
1:03:16very frustrated with being hit on by
1:03:21someone that I was doing trying to get a
1:03:24job from that I was being job
1:03:25interviewed and you know also being
1:03:28thinking that it was like a business
1:03:30contact turning into they're hitting on
1:03:32me and that kind of thing and and so I
1:03:35wondered well you know if single women
1:03:37out earn single men it could the
1:03:39difference be that you know this
1:03:41potential of a relationship you know
1:03:45helping them rise the ranks I know in
1:03:48pharmaceutical sales women do a lot
1:03:50better and you know those are people
1:03:52from a surgical sales reps or people who
1:03:54are going to you know doctors and
1:03:56talking about what new kind of pill they
1:03:58have or something that they could you
1:04:01know push on their patients and women
1:04:04really do well at that real estate
1:04:06agents women do well you know there's a
1:04:08lot of fields I guess sales that if
1:04:11you're a single woman an attractive
1:04:13woman you can do very well I actually
1:04:14very quickly worked for a car dealership
1:04:17and there was probably oh gosh there was
1:04:21probably thirty people working there and
1:04:22I was one of three women and the guy who
1:04:26hired me said you know women do earn the
1:04:28most year you're gonna do really well of
1:04:30course I didn't know anything about cars
1:04:31so I was quickly no quit fire whatever
1:04:34and I left but but you know I thought it
1:04:38was interesting that just just being a
1:04:40woman and mostly the sales were over the
1:04:41phone because it was car sales from
1:04:43dealership to dealership so just being a
1:04:46woman over the phone was very convincing
1:04:48inviting you creating relationships
1:04:50between dealers do you know if a lot of
1:04:54feminists acknowledged these types of
1:04:57choices and differences in in jobs
1:05:01because I mean there's a million jobs
1:05:02out there and you know I ideally you
1:05:05want to choose one that you enjoy that
1:05:08you your skills align with and your
1:05:09personality aligns with do you hear a
1:05:12lot of conversations about women talking
1:05:16about that like how women have tended to
1:05:19be drawn towards these types of
1:05:21occupations or men tend you know
1:05:23everyone knows that the STEM fields are
1:05:26vast majority of men you know some would
1:05:28say that that's because you know just
1:05:30the differences differences in brain
1:05:32brains and personalities of gender like
1:05:36is that something you hear a lot about
1:05:37or is it mostly just about the
1:05:40inequality so it hear about like in the
1:05:47media or from feminists or like wait
1:05:50conversations within feminist
1:05:51communities within well I you know I
1:05:54think within feminism they they really
1:05:58do go out of their way to because
1:06:02everything's so nuanced and information
1:06:06is shared so quickly and sound bites and
1:06:08headlines and tweets and everything or
1:06:10what get the most attention so you need
1:06:12to figure out okay well what's your
1:06:14elevator pitch and that's what we're
1:06:15gonna stick with so I think feminism in
1:06:18general has looked at okay biological
1:06:22differences gender differences all that
1:06:24and and decided on that the best course
1:06:28of action or the the soundbite or the
1:06:32little bit of information we really want
1:06:34to drill into people's heads is that
1:06:35there's no difference between men and
1:06:37women that women are just as capable
1:06:38they can do anything a man can do and
1:06:40they could do in heels whatever
1:06:43but you know the problem with that is
1:06:47that's not the full story
1:06:48and obviously there are a lot of
1:06:50biological differences and you know
1:06:53those those biological differences
1:06:56here's where I understand where feminism
1:06:59is coming from because you don't want to
1:07:01talk about the biological differences in
1:07:04a way that can lead people who are kind
1:07:08of short-sighted or don't want to know
1:07:10the full story you don't want to lead
1:07:12them to believe that
1:07:14okay well woman's pregnancy issues
1:07:16menopausal issues hormonal issues could
1:07:22lead them to not be a good person higher
1:07:24could lead them to not be a good person
1:07:27to you know build a company with or to
1:07:30be our CEO and and you know there is a
1:07:33danger and not talking about hormones
1:07:36you know which very much is is a big all
1:07:39women know if you just talk into you
1:07:41know a safe space of women we know it's
1:07:43a big part of our lives yeah it really
1:07:45is
1:07:45PMS - the period - you know the
1:07:48pregnancy the issue is trying to avoid
1:07:51it wanting taking to get it TTC
1:07:53communities in the you know menopause
1:07:55and you know it it is a big part of our
1:07:59existence and I think for the most part
1:08:01we don't talk about it because we don't
1:08:03want men to jump to the conclusion that
1:08:07okay she's around you know the age where
1:08:10she won't have kids we probably
1:08:12shouldn't you know promote her or you
1:08:14know make her part of this firm or you
1:08:17know whatever so so there's balance
1:08:20there and I that's why I do understand
1:08:23my feminism has been really careful
1:08:26about not so you think that because of
1:08:29that because of that fear of furthering
1:08:31discrimination or whatnot that let's
1:08:35just not acknowledge that at all yeah
1:08:38yeah and it's it's a it's a complex
1:08:46thing and I think every woman does does
1:08:50really decide when to share that
1:08:52information and when to hold it back I'm
1:08:54sure most women you know keep the most
1:08:56you know personal physical issues that
1:09:00they're having they
1:09:02keep it away from even their a partner
1:09:03their husband or their boyfriend because
1:09:05you don't want to them to then think you
1:09:07know you're not down for whatever you
1:09:10know or that you're not operating at
1:09:13your best ability for like if it's a job
1:09:16so you know it is kind of this private
1:09:19life of women and I think you know the I
1:09:23guess the the way that strong successful
1:09:26women have figured out what's best to do
1:09:28is just to act like there are no
1:09:30underlying issues and look as strong and
1:09:32as capable as man as possible and you
1:09:37know and now I say that and I'm
1:09:38wondering like what are people assuming
1:09:41I'm saying so kasi so you're saying so
1:09:44what you're saying no I'm not I I do
1:09:47think that you know I'm a CEO of a
1:09:49company and it is so much hard work and
1:09:52there's so much sacrifice and I think
1:09:53that's what really needs to be told to
1:09:56young girls to empower them to to drive
1:09:59them to succeed in whatever they want to
1:10:01do in life is to really be honest about
1:10:04how much sacrifice there is and you know
1:10:07whether it's sacrifice of sleep
1:10:09sacrifice of your health here not you
1:10:11know eating the best meals right on at
1:10:14the time that you should be or not
1:10:16getting you know meditation time good
1:10:18time or you're talking about sacrifice
1:10:19to be like a high ranking woman in the
1:10:24pre a tional world yeah yeah and and
1:10:26also if you're you know going into a
1:10:28field that requires a lot of schooling
1:10:30you know you've got to factor that in
1:10:31which men always you know that's that's
1:10:33what they do factor in but but they you
1:10:35know they usually I think what I would
1:10:42like to see groups that are working on
1:10:45preparing girls for women hood I would
1:10:49love to see them have a more honest
1:10:51inclusive conversation about okay let's
1:10:54talk about family when do you want to
1:10:56have a family how do you see that family
1:10:57happening how do you see being a career
1:10:58woman with that family how do you how do
1:11:01you see your relationship with your
1:11:02husband are you gonna be the breadwinner
1:11:04is he gonna be the breadwinner if you
1:11:05have kids is he's gonna be the
1:11:06stay-at-home dad or you have a nanny
1:11:08who's gonna make more money to pay for
1:11:10that nanny or to pay for that after
1:11:11school you know tutoring or whatever and
1:11:14you know there's
1:11:16there's a lot of those questions that
1:11:18are those conversations that need to be
1:11:21had and aren't happening because we're
1:11:23so focused on women in the workplace or
1:11:27you know right now with me to move men
1:11:29with sexual assault which you know who
1:11:31knows what's going to be the outcome
1:11:32from this whole movement you know is it
1:11:34going to make more women afraid to work
1:11:37in male-dominated fields is it gonna
1:11:39make more men afraid to hire women that
1:11:41they're gonna be falsely accused of
1:11:42something or misread and what they say
1:11:45so you know there's so much focus on
1:11:49that right now and I do think that you
1:11:52know that was a conversation that needed
1:11:54to happen it has happened it's still
1:11:55happening and that's that's good for the
1:11:57people who need to know that it's okay
1:12:00to go to a lot officials to report what
1:12:02happened to them and have it be looked
1:12:04into you know with with the court system
1:12:07or with law so but you know there's all
1:12:12these other conversations and I think
1:12:13women and family and motherhood and all
1:12:16that's really left out of the feminist
1:12:19conversation yeah I mean I know what I
1:12:22like my 20s as well becoming a feminist
1:12:27as well I know that that was the main
1:12:30message because I you know obviously I'm
1:12:32also a very driven a girl with my career
1:12:37and I want to do as well as I can but
1:12:39you know you get to you get to a point
1:12:44where you're like oh well can I I can I
1:12:47had a certain point I have to think
1:12:49about the other side as well mm-hmm
1:12:51because I don't have the luxury of not
1:12:54thinking about it and you know I think
1:12:57for a long time we talked about this
1:12:59here I think you know I don't know if I
1:13:01ever want to get married I don't know if
1:13:02I want to have kids I don't know you
1:13:04know like as long you know if my if I'm
1:13:05doing good my career like I think I'll
1:13:08be good and happy with that and then and
1:13:09then I don't know you just so you get a
1:13:11little bit older you're like well I I
1:13:15don't know I don't think that's true
1:13:17like I think I do want that other side
1:13:19as well and and I think we're probably
1:13:23the first generation where we have this
1:13:26problem where we were constantly pushed
1:13:29our
1:13:29entire lives but some of us to you know
1:13:32focus on career be driven be ambitious
1:13:34you know whether it was from parents or
1:13:36these movements and whatnot but you're
1:13:38right there's not that other side yeah
1:13:40as well yes oh but this also makes me
1:13:43think good speaking of family of you you
1:13:46mentioned in the film the issues that
1:13:48men also deal with with with families as
1:13:51well and like child custody battles and
1:13:53support and stuff like that are you able
1:13:55to talk about that yeah you know I I I
1:13:59think it's interesting that more and
1:14:02more children are being born to
1:14:05unmarried parents now mm-hmm and that
1:14:08you know I am I'm not saying that in any
1:14:11Lego isn't a horrible or isn't it's
1:14:13great or anything like that but what I
1:14:15in relation to men's issues what I do
1:14:17think is interesting is that of
1:14:20unmarried fathers married fathers and
1:14:22divorced fathers the the guys that
1:14:25really get the shortest stick out of the
1:14:28whole thing is the unmarried fathers
1:14:29they they have so limited rights in is
1:14:36the woman going to adopt the child away
1:14:39even if he wants to be a present father
1:14:41figure or be a single dad you know she
1:14:44can adopt the child away if he hasn't
1:14:47already applied for legal rights to that
1:14:50child you know the woman can adopt away
1:14:52a child even if the father is willing to
1:14:56raise it mm-hmm and it's a
1:14:58state-by-state issue but for the most
1:15:01part a guy once he finds out that he is
1:15:05the father he needs to actually apply to
1:15:08have parental rights or paternal rights
1:15:11over that child and you know it's a
1:15:13legal process with paperwork it's really
1:15:14yeah I didn't essentially have to
1:15:16legally file to be the father and
1:15:19essentially yes whereas if you're a
1:15:21married father you know in the marriage
1:15:24certificate it's you are now responsible
1:15:26for that child and there's another issue
1:15:27with that one too is if if the woman is
1:15:30in a marriage with a man and she
1:15:32actually get prey gets pregnant by
1:15:34another guy has that child whether or
1:15:37not her husband knows that it's his or
1:15:39not he's still responsible legally
1:15:41responsible for that child
1:15:43not the guy over here so you know
1:15:46there's a lot of that's really good
1:15:48that's real yes yeah so so okay back to
1:15:53unmarried fathers unless he he files the
1:15:57paperwork to say I am the paternal the
1:16:00the father of this child and I I want
1:16:03the rights you know as the father have
1:16:05rights unless he's already done that
1:16:09paperwork he doesn't have a saying she
1:16:10adopts the child away
1:16:11obviously the we're just gonna set aside
1:16:13the abortion thing now because that's a
1:16:15whole nother can of worms but um but
1:16:19there's another issue is that there's no
1:16:22law saying that a woman has to tell the
1:16:25father he is a father so there could you
1:16:29know be a one-night-standers say they
1:16:30did say they were in a relationship for
1:16:32a year broke up she found out she was
1:16:33pregnant later they hadn't talked to
1:16:35each other in months she never has to
1:16:37tell him that he has a child but she can
1:16:41come back 18 years later and say I want
1:16:43back to child support
1:16:44really and where any timeframe 1 year
1:16:48later two years fighters and that man is
1:16:50then responsible for 18 years of child
1:16:54support yes so this is crazy to me that
1:16:59you know his I was I was a feminist for
1:17:02so long and and still deeply care about
1:17:04all these women's issues but never heard
1:17:07about fathers rights and and all these
1:17:10individual you know worst-case scenarios
1:17:13and when I started to talk to friends
1:17:18and family in my life about these issues
1:17:21one reaction that I thought was really
1:17:23interesting was my sister who just you
1:17:26know she broke down in tears because she
1:17:27started thinking about how her husband
1:17:31you know is the best father in the world
1:17:34and the idea that you know he he could
1:17:38have been completely removed from their
1:17:41lives or all the different issues that
1:17:44either an unmarried or divorced father
1:17:46goes through it just broke her down in
1:17:50tears and so I know that people who care
1:17:53about gender fairness would care about
1:17:55these issues but there's just no
1:17:56platform to really
1:17:57talk about it and and and then also if
1:18:00you're a woman and you have children and
1:18:02really think about how much emotional
1:18:04damage that would be if either your
1:18:07children were taken away from you and
1:18:09say you get just two hours of visiting
1:18:13time every Saturday or every other
1:18:14Saturday or you don't get to see them at
1:18:17all except the holidays or I or I mean
1:18:22obviously this would never happened
1:18:23because women bear the child but but
1:18:25just imagine as a human being what it
1:18:28would be like finding out you have an 18
1:18:31year old you never knew existed
1:18:32that's your child I mean I mean what
1:18:36about the opposite of that as well as a
1:18:39father finding out that someone that
1:18:41they raised in st. Giles is that what's
1:18:44called paternity fraud yes paternity
1:18:47fraud and then wrongful paternity is
1:18:50when it's not malicious the woman didn't
1:18:53mean to - wrongfully say that guy was
1:18:56the father she just didn't know you know
1:18:58she was with a few guys around the same
1:19:00time and she didn't know who the father
1:19:01was but thought for sure it was one
1:19:02person so that's wrongful pre her name
1:19:05but paternity fraud is is the woman
1:19:06knowing who is the father and keeping
1:19:08that from the father how common is that
1:19:11see there's no exact statistics on this
1:19:15because there's also I mean there's no
1:19:18reporting there there's also no advocacy
1:19:21funding to try to figure out these
1:19:23numbers you know that's a big part with
1:19:25gender politics is you have to have
1:19:27organizations that have a lot of funding
1:19:30and support to then go do these studies
1:19:32to be able to say to the public look how
1:19:34big this issue is but there isn't that
1:19:37kind of same you know funding support
1:19:39for men's issues so do you know if
1:19:42there's a law that says if a guy finds
1:19:44out that the kid he raised for 18 years
1:19:47isn't his is does he then get to be
1:19:50repaid the estimated costs of raising
1:19:55that child uh in some cases the there
1:19:58have been you know lawsuits to get that
1:20:02and they did find that to be you know
1:20:04the end result but there are a lot of
1:20:06cases as well that I've heard of through
1:20:08the National Coalition for men
1:20:11who the the courts are just like well
1:20:14this is the way it's done these are the
1:20:16laws is the paperwork this guy's name
1:20:18was listed as the father on the birth
1:20:20certificate and therefore he is
1:20:21responsible even if the paternity test
1:20:23shows that he's not yes and DNA testing
1:20:27is another issue there's so many issues
1:20:29for men's issues but DNA testing and the
1:20:34the let's see I'm trying to get the
1:20:37right number on this I can't remember
1:20:42what country it is now if it's the US or
1:20:43it was a different country but it it's
1:20:46illegal for a woman to get a DNA or
1:20:50sorry it's illegal for a man to get a
1:20:53DNA test done to find out if he's the
1:20:55father if the woman hasn't signed off on
1:20:59approving that consenting to that I
1:21:01think that was France right is it yes I
1:21:03think I talked about in the film
1:21:04documentary yeah yeah so so I mean which
1:21:08I mean imagine if it gets if a
1:21:11relationships in a point where he's
1:21:13wondering if he's the father she's
1:21:14probably not in a position where she
1:21:16wants she sign off on that right yeah
1:21:19yeah and you know I when I was looking
1:21:22into this I was thinking well why can't
1:21:23just every baby that's born do the DNA
1:21:26test and figure out who the parent is
1:21:28but when I started law into that yeah
1:21:31it's a lot of money it's a lot of it but
1:21:34then you know when you talk about money
1:21:35there's also now another Segway yeah
1:21:39yeah that's why you're ignorant male
1:21:40circumcision you know a lot of money
1:21:43goes into the the medical system to have
1:21:45that done and infant male circumcision
1:21:47is covered by many states you know
1:21:51social health care programs so so
1:21:55basically lower-income families can have
1:21:56their baby boy circumcised on the
1:22:00state's dollar taxpayer dollars so you
1:22:04know if we have if we can make funding
1:22:06for that which I now adieu believe after
1:22:10making the red pill movie that that's a
1:22:12violation of Human Rights a genital
1:22:15integrity issue that video I had never
1:22:18thought about it cuz it's so common I
1:22:20was like yeah I'm sure I'll circumcise
1:22:21my kids every I feel like everyone does
1:22:23it
1:22:24and then I saw that scene in your movie
1:22:26and I was like oh my god yeah why and
1:22:29why is mail or why is circumcision okay
1:22:34of males but female genital mutilation
1:22:35is seen as so horrific so why is infant
1:22:41male circumcision okay
1:22:43generally speaking and then female shown
1:22:45so there is a big difference in the
1:22:48severity and I would agree you know
1:22:50that's what a lot of feminists
1:22:51organizations would argue that they
1:22:54would say that infant male genital
1:22:56mutilation isn't that big of an issue
1:22:57because it's not as bad as female
1:22:59genital mutilation I would agree with
1:23:01that and most men's rights activists
1:23:04would also agree with that that female
1:23:05genital mutilation is a really you know
1:23:07horrific extreme thing but it's it's not
1:23:11you know we need to separate the issues
1:23:14and and look at this other this other
1:23:17issue that is it's a human being that is
1:23:21having a part of their natural body cut
1:23:23without their consent when the United
1:23:27States is the only country that widely
1:23:30practiced practices infant male
1:23:34circumcision for non religious reasons
1:23:36so almost as like a culture of pop
1:23:39cultural you know what is the reason for
1:23:43doing an fit male circumcision huh so
1:23:46this is a very interesting rabbit hole
1:23:50there there's been a lot of conflicting
1:23:52studies and there will be many people to
1:23:55tell you that it helps lower STDs and
1:23:59HIV rates which is why the I think it
1:24:06was the Bill and Melinda Gates
1:24:07Foundation put a lot of money into
1:24:09Africa to get the men circumcised in
1:24:14adulthood as a way to try to lower
1:24:18hiv-aids rates it actually ended up
1:24:21having the opposite effect
1:24:23I should probably retract bill I don't
1:24:25know if as below Bill and Melinda Gates
1:24:26Foundation maybe was something else I
1:24:27could be totally wrong please do your
1:24:29own research um but it was a big
1:24:31foundation that that funded having this
1:24:36widespread circumcisions die
1:24:38to lower the hiv/aids rates ended up
1:24:41having the opposite effect because they
1:24:44were saying it would lower the rates the
1:24:46men there started not using condoms and
1:24:50protection thinking that they would be
1:24:51immune to yeah so anyways I that's the
1:24:59reason it's STDs and HIV is the the way
1:25:04and the reason why infant male
1:25:06circumcision really kind of caught wind
1:25:10with the medic the medical field did did
1:25:14it like not start happening until around
1:25:16the AIDS scare in the 80s and 90s no
1:25:18it's it's actually a very old practice I
1:25:21mean it affected too many religions but
1:25:26as far as it being practiced in the US
1:25:28for non religious reasons that's usually
1:25:31the reason that's given or cleanliness
1:25:34is another reason so the more studies
1:25:40that have been done there you know doing
1:25:44research is very tricky because you also
1:25:46have to look at how many people are they
1:25:48looking at who funded this research are
1:25:52we just seeing the summary are we seeing
1:25:54the whole you know a peer review paper
1:25:56and when I was talking to inte activists
1:25:59which are men's well intact Abyss are
1:26:01are people who want to support infant
1:26:06rights by saying you know let them
1:26:08decide when they're of consenting age
1:26:09whether or not they want to be
1:26:10circumcised so a lot of inte activists
1:26:12also support the men's rights movement
1:26:14because it really is a men's issue in
1:26:17the u.s. because we don't have female
1:26:19its general mutilation you know legal
1:26:22here thank goodness and and so int
1:26:26activists would talk about that the
1:26:30research has really been doctored and
1:26:33messed with and you know different
1:26:35funding exchanging hands to promote this
1:26:38because there is a lot of money in
1:26:40infant male circumcision it's a medical
1:26:42procedure like any other done on you
1:26:45know almost hey in the US I think it's
1:26:47around 60 70 percent
1:26:51of infant boys are circumcised and in
1:26:55the world it's actually like a quarter
1:26:57of the male population that circumcise
1:26:59so the u.s. is very unusual to be doing
1:27:03this you know and and I I do think a lot
1:27:07of women and mothers are you know also
1:27:09actively involved in making that
1:27:11decision for their son not knowing you
1:27:16know that there's conflicting opinions
1:27:19and research about this and you were
1:27:20saying that potentially that money could
1:27:23be used elsewhere maybe a paternity test
1:27:25right yeah so B because you know there's
1:27:28state-funded money going to infant male
1:27:30circumcision if we can make that happen
1:27:31could we also make DNA testing be
1:27:34required for every child that's born so
1:27:37you know I think that's that could have
1:27:39a generation of worms yeah but I mean on
1:27:42the on the topic of health there's
1:27:44there's all those other issues that you
1:27:46guys talk about you talk about the one I
1:27:49didn't R I didn't know about a lot of
1:27:50these but how prostate cancer and breast
1:27:52cancers have the same root ality rates
1:27:55but that breast cancer gets a lot more
1:27:57funding a lot more yes and see it and
1:28:00here's another issue that's very nuanced
1:28:02um because you know I think when we talk
1:28:06about gender issues and you know social
1:28:08issues we need to look at the big
1:28:09picture and all the fine details in the
1:28:11fine print and so you know some of the
1:28:13fine print of that issue is the the
1:28:16woman the average age of the woman who
1:28:20dies from breast cancer is younger than
1:28:23the average age of a man who dies of
1:28:25prostate cancer although the rates of
1:28:28death from prostate cancer and breast
1:28:30cancer are very close to the same the
1:28:34amount of people that die from those the
1:28:36ages are different and so I do see you
1:28:40know why there's so much heart and
1:28:43passion for breast cancer and doing
1:28:46these things like the you know the pink
1:28:47ribbon and everything because they're
1:28:51women with infants or their you know
1:28:53newly married women or their you know
1:28:55their their mothers their teachers
1:28:58they're very much you know in society
1:29:00active have yet an active social lives I
1:29:03thought about that too now
1:29:04no idea if this is true but when I heard
1:29:05that statistic I thought well I wonder
1:29:07if I wonder if it has something to do
1:29:09with the fact that women just tend to be
1:29:11more a little more social a little bit
1:29:14more about the causes you know my mom's
1:29:17a breast cancer survivor and she is all
1:29:19about the American Cancer Society and
1:29:22doing walks and all this and that I'm
1:29:23like but if I were to you know
1:29:26god forbid I think a lot of men I know
1:29:28if they were to get prostate cancer or
1:29:30something I know a lot of men just
1:29:32aren't the type to like suddenly go do a
1:29:34March or you try to raise money or go to
1:29:37Washington DC - you know lobby or
1:29:39something like that yeah so I just I
1:29:41just wondered if it was from the efforts
1:29:44of yeah I'm in you know yeah I think it
1:29:47I think it has you know all those
1:29:49different influences have to do with it
1:29:51and you know also doctors are kind of
1:29:55like well your guy your you know in your
1:29:5870s high rate of prostate cancer but
1:30:01you're also in your 70s and you know
1:30:03it's so I I think you know why it's good
1:30:08to talk about the amount of effort and
1:30:10funding and all this is just to show
1:30:12that there are other issues that are
1:30:16important to talk about and family
1:30:18members and people going through this
1:30:19firsthand that we should care about and
1:30:22talk about and you know and there's so
1:30:24many health issues I mean like you
1:30:25remember the with it ALS you know the
1:30:29ice bucket challenge was yes I did that
1:30:32of course there was controversy about
1:30:34the drought in California you know not
1:30:41contribute to the job yeah but but
1:30:43that's the thing is that you know I do
1:30:44think that Millennials and with the
1:30:46social social media explosion that we
1:30:50have you know it's all about awareness
1:30:52of these issues just to know to know
1:30:56that this can happen to know what the
1:30:57signs are the symptoms are to know if
1:30:59you if you know someone going through
1:31:01this this may be what they're
1:31:02experiencing and or how they're acting
1:31:04and to you know understand and have
1:31:06compassion for them in that scenario so
1:31:08you know with breast cancer I'm so glad
1:31:11that you know there is so much awareness
1:31:12around this because I'm sure it's
1:31:14increased the amount of you know test
1:31:17screening
1:31:17to catch it early and so if we could
1:31:21just have more awareness for breast
1:31:23cancer maybe we could get you know
1:31:25earlier tests for that to also prevent
1:31:27that and on the topic of health I think
1:31:30also the life expectancy isn't it that
1:31:33meant you say men's life expectancy is a
1:31:35lot shorter
1:31:36yeah years I hey I think it's a seven
1:31:38year did we know why that is I mean
1:31:40actually it doesn't the what we were
1:31:42talking about earlier the dangerous jobs
1:31:43and we yeah yeah I just have to do with
1:31:46that yes so when I was making the red
1:31:48pill I thought well it must be a
1:31:50biological right that's just that's just
1:31:54you know but no it's actually
1:31:57environmental impact so it really not
1:32:00not like nature's impact but you know
1:32:03the social kind of not biological
1:32:06societal impact I guess so so you know
1:32:10dangerous jobs workplace workplace -
1:32:13dangerous jobs war deaths not going to
1:32:18the doctor's much or following up with
1:32:21that kind of you know that could be that
1:32:23could be analyzed in many different ways
1:32:25as far as you know masculinity and if
1:32:27you just don't want to admit you have a
1:32:29problem or face that you know health
1:32:32issue so yeah there's a lot of different
1:32:35components going there but yeah men live
1:32:37shorter lives they also the suicide rate
1:32:40mm-hmm yeah and what's interesting with
1:32:43that is so it's roughly 75 to 80 percent
1:32:48of all suicides or men and I was hearing
1:32:52those statistics and reading that within
1:32:55you know Western civilization countries
1:32:58and I ended up finding the world's you
1:33:04know the world suicide rates for all the
1:33:06different countries that report those
1:33:07type of statistics and so as you know
1:33:10hundred and thirty countries or
1:33:12something that I did the math and figure
1:33:15it and I actually I'm good at math I was
1:33:17my best subject in school so I did the
1:33:18math him figure it out okay what's the
1:33:19world wide rate of all the countries
1:33:21that report such statistics and it still
1:33:24did come out to like 78 percent of all
1:33:27suicides throughout the world were men
1:33:29and
1:33:31it just made me realize that it's it's a
1:33:33worldwide issue it's not just a you know
1:33:37it's not just the US and a backlash to
1:33:40the United States feminism or it's not
1:33:43just you know Australia or something
1:33:45it's it's also in you know Japan and
1:33:48India and South Africa and Egypt and you
1:33:51know all these other places so why do we
1:33:53think this is well that's the question I
1:33:57haven't figured that out yet I think
1:34:01it's just you know we've we have made so
1:34:04much progress for women in talking about
1:34:08our issues and maybe it is because we
1:34:09are the more communicative gender sex
1:34:13that that really wants to talk about our
1:34:16problems and then compare notes and find
1:34:18solutions and also get our loved ones to
1:34:21care about it as well and you know if
1:34:22you you know I look at my husband's
1:34:25relationship and he definitely knows
1:34:27about anything that I'm upset with and I
1:34:30really have to pull T to figure out well
1:34:32what's going on for him that could be
1:34:33better and you know I think guys just
1:34:35don't really talk about what's going on
1:34:38for them so when we look at especially
1:34:39like teen suicides mass shooters you
1:34:44know mm-hmm oh this is so crazy you just
1:34:47say that just I think this morning and
1:34:49it was so random there was no reason for
1:34:51me to watch it it just showed up in my
1:34:52like YouTube suggested to videos it was
1:34:56a TED talk about a guy that said he was
1:34:59almost a mass shooter when he was a kid
1:35:01and I literally think I watched it this
1:35:03morning and it was so it was so crazy it
1:35:07was just I mean he added a perspective
1:35:09to it that you never hear when one of
1:35:11these things happen you immediately go
1:35:14to you know vilifying the person which I
1:35:17mean hey that's fair they're a mass
1:35:18murder
1:35:19but to hear it from perspective of
1:35:21someone who was saved from that which in
1:35:25short he said it was a friend of he was
1:35:27ready to go he bought the guns he pretty
1:35:30much knew how he was gonna do it and he
1:35:33said that a friend of his just saw he
1:35:35was going through a hard time and he
1:35:38said it wasn't even a big intervention
1:35:41revolutionary thing he just like offered
1:35:45him
1:35:45and he just said it was just like a
1:35:47human moment he said that changed
1:35:49everything for him and I thought that's
1:35:52so interesting because he was an angry
1:35:54Kid I think he can you grow up in like a
1:35:55severely abusive household and he
1:35:58couldn't talk to anyone and you know
1:36:00which I think relates to what we're
1:36:02saying with men and I don't I don't know
1:36:05if it's a biological thing if it's a sex
1:36:09inherent thing or if it is a societal
1:36:13thing where you know men aren't supposed
1:36:16to be as emotional as women or as open
1:36:19as women but I would put that under like
1:36:21the health category as yeah I I think
1:36:24it's a combination I you know any person
1:36:28who has both the son and a daughter can
1:36:30tell you that the son is just you know
1:36:32once to run around and touch things has
1:36:34too much energy and you know I think
1:36:36guys have the the you know physical
1:36:41tactile wanting to do things which can
1:36:43also lead into the type of jobs that
1:36:45they choose but then also you know
1:36:47interest in you know hand guy in guns
1:36:49and I only just learned how to shoot a
1:36:54gun like two years ago and I it scared
1:36:56the crap out of me but I was like wow
1:36:59you know this this is so interesting
1:37:01that you know more women don't learn how
1:37:03to use a gun and and it is you know Erin
1:37:08Pizzey who's in the red-tail maybe she
1:37:09called it the great equalizer you know
1:37:11it is that is some a weapon that you
1:37:14know it doesn't matter of physical
1:37:16strength if if you have that then you
1:37:19know you have you know scarily the power
1:37:22but but you know as far as mass shooters
1:37:27I think that a lot of them are also
1:37:31suicidal you know they go in oh yeah
1:37:33knowing or does a clan yeah all the time
1:37:36yeah and so so you know if we know that
1:37:4080 roughly eighty percent of all
1:37:42suicides it's our men you know a lot of
1:37:46people in the world now look at you know
1:37:49the the people that are that way because
1:37:51they're so angry they feel like
1:37:52someone's wrong then there's intense
1:37:54resentment maybe they've been abused in
1:37:56their childhood and then
1:37:58on top of that maybe there is something
1:38:00biological in men that's more you know
1:38:02makes them want to learn about firearms
1:38:05because that that is the most common way
1:38:08that suicide is completed is through
1:38:11firearm don't don't they say that women
1:38:13actually attempt suicide more yeah it's
1:38:15just that males are more successful at
1:38:17it yeah yeah and which is I have no idea
1:38:21what that means
1:38:22it's but it is interesting you know so I
1:38:26was suicidal at one point when I was 13
1:38:29and you know it's a very brief chapter
1:38:32in my life but what you know I went
1:38:36through all the different ways of like
1:38:38well how would I and I and it really
1:38:39freaked me out you know to think of
1:38:42doing something like that but you know
1:38:44it was for the goal of the end result of
1:38:47just like not being here you know and
1:38:50but you know the actual act of how to do
1:38:52it was what I couldn't you know get to
1:38:56and but what got me out of it was I knew
1:39:01you know if I told my mom if I told my
1:39:03sister immediately I'm protected I have
1:39:07a support system they're gonna put me in
1:39:09therapy which they did they and you know
1:39:14it I always knew that I had that support
1:39:18if I sought it out I eventually sought
1:39:21it out I got that support so you know I
1:39:26don't know how many guys I mean I hear
1:39:28from so many men who've watched the red
1:39:30pill movie contact me I've had people
1:39:33contact me saying that the film
1:39:35prevented them from their plan of
1:39:37committing suicide well you know those
1:39:40are what you know I live for what I made
1:39:43this film for really just for those
1:39:45messages are made you know all the
1:39:49horrible things I went through with the
1:39:50release of the red pill worth it because
1:39:52I know a few lives were saved but you
1:39:59know they don't have the same kind of
1:40:01support you know we get we could talk
1:40:05for ages also about this of you know
1:40:07masculinity and and that's I know that's
1:40:11a really sore
1:40:12spot for men's rights activists the the
1:40:14term toxic masculinity because now we're
1:40:16talking about something that's
1:40:17inherently a part of them that you're
1:40:19saying is inherently bad and I when I
1:40:24when I started to listen to men's rights
1:40:26activists about their view on toxic
1:40:28masculinity and then started to you know
1:40:30turn and turn you know the mirror on my
1:40:34my own brain with feminism and think
1:40:36okay if we were in a society that
1:40:37accepted the term toxic femininity that
1:40:40all these articles and Twitter hashtags
1:40:43and posts and in Hollywood was
1:40:45constantly talking about toxic
1:40:47femininity we need a you know conquer
1:40:50this evil in our world we need to talk
1:40:51about toxic femininity oh my god I would
1:40:55just I would feel like I was walking
1:40:56through the world like I was already a
1:40:58criminal or some kind of evil person
1:41:00without having to done anything wrong
1:41:03and but feeling like you already need to
1:41:04apologize just for being alive well and
1:41:07that was that was a huge takeaway from
1:41:09watching your film was I've taken away
1:41:14the the what would the the word be just
1:41:19every guy that you interviewed they had
1:41:21a sense of defeat about them they seemed
1:41:25so tired and they seemed really defeated
1:41:27and I mean a lot of the guys he featured
1:41:29I mean you could tell these were not
1:41:31these were not like people looking to be
1:41:33on camera and be a media figure they
1:41:36were just normal guys like some of them
1:41:38were kind of shy and and when they were
1:41:40just trying to you could tell they were
1:41:42not used to like getting their voice out
1:41:44there mm-hmm
1:41:45and I think about what's happening right
1:41:48now this some people would say like an
1:41:51assaults on men which I know some women
1:41:53wouldn't agree with that but I mean it
1:41:56kind of you know kind of is whether you
1:41:57know maybe some girls think that that's
1:41:59okay but it kind of is because you have
1:42:02toxic metal like you just said if we
1:42:04said toxic femininity but we have toxic
1:42:06masculinity I feel like right now words
1:42:08like the patriarchy male priviledge just
1:42:11the just the mere fact of being born a
1:42:16male means that you are born with
1:42:18privilege like this being pushed out
1:42:22that's
1:42:25even if even if I you know agreed with
1:42:28that which you know I want I won't say
1:42:29that but I could how could how could
1:42:33that not be hard on males I mean we say
1:42:37this for people of of color or or we
1:42:40obviously say it about women is that
1:42:42just by being born or certain way we're
1:42:44being discriminated against or we have
1:42:47these things said about us or we have
1:42:48these assumptions made about us I think
1:42:53this is what I'm starting to see with
1:42:55with men and it's weird it's really
1:42:59weird you know when you're you're a girl
1:43:04growing up in it when we were girls
1:43:06growing up if you ever heard that girls
1:43:09were weak or you throw like a girl you
1:43:12know that those are the kind of mind
1:43:15games that led to feminists becoming
1:43:17feminists because I always think about
1:43:22how especially right now with social
1:43:24media and how connected we are on a
1:43:27device and so disconnected from real
1:43:30people that we really need to think
1:43:34about the diet the consumption of what
1:43:38you're putting into your brain because
1:43:40that you know mental health is is just
1:43:44as much you know just as important as
1:43:46any physical health or ailment that you
1:43:49may have and we really need to protect
1:43:50our mental health but I've been thinking
1:43:55a lot about this how you need a you need
1:43:57to be very selective about what you put
1:43:59into your brain with what you follow
1:44:00with what you spend time consuming just
1:44:04like you would with what you eat and you
1:44:07know I I I really like you know
1:44:10inspirational kind of motivational
1:44:12speakers and I loved to read things that
1:44:15you know educate me and give me a
1:44:17broader perspective on historical things
1:44:19or political things that you know be
1:44:22careful about the you know the clickbait
1:44:25kind of outraged porn that is out there
1:44:30now you know to get people outraged
1:44:34and so I think toxic masculinity
1:44:39patriarchy male priviledge those are
1:44:44damaging messages too especially be
1:44:48sending two young boys growing up and
1:44:51also young girls you know if you're a
1:44:53young girl hearing that you know male
1:44:55privilege and and that we need to snatch
1:44:58the patriarchy and and I there was like
1:45:04a onesie for babies where I think it was
1:45:06for baby boys and it said boys will be
1:45:09boys but then the last boys was crossed
1:45:12out and it said good human beings and
1:45:14this was trending for a while and
1:45:16Instagram and a lot of big celebrities
1:45:18were posting this and just thinking like
1:45:21okay so you're you're putting them once
1:45:23again a baby saying boys will be good
1:45:25human beings not boys good human beings
1:45:27and it's just it's a saying you are
1:45:30inherently bad so we're gonna we're
1:45:34gonna try and make you a good person
1:45:35because if we don't try to make you a
1:45:37good person you're gonna be bad because
1:45:39you're a male yeah and my husband and I
1:45:43I remember growing up and having the
1:45:45boys are stupid throw rocks at them you
1:45:48know thing on bags and t-shirts and
1:45:50everything and not was really popular
1:45:52when I was in elementary school I have
1:45:53no idea why is so stupid
1:45:56but why did we do anything but you know
1:46:01now it's gone so much for farther I
1:46:03think with this just open acceptance of
1:46:06male bashing boy bashing you know
1:46:09dialogue that it's that it's okay
1:46:11because it's okay to insults offends are
1:46:16put down the oppressors and when when
1:46:20you put people in a category half of the
1:46:22population in the world in a category of
1:46:25being the oppressor now you're more
1:46:28willing to diminish discount excuse the
1:46:34issues going on for them because they
1:46:36are a part of the privileged class of
1:46:38people
1:46:38so we therefore we don't have to care
1:46:40about men getting what is it 63% more
1:46:44prison time for the same crime as a
1:46:47woman
1:46:48also convicted of the same crime men get
1:46:5063 percent longer sentences so well it's
1:46:55okay because we're just trying to even
1:46:56things out because the oppressed are or
1:46:59the oppressors are privileged where did
1:47:01this come from
1:47:02this fourth wave feminism that's
1:47:05happening right now because when I think
1:47:06back to like you know the the what was
1:47:09the first wave like the 1910 teens or
1:47:12something like that
1:47:13I actually don't even know it was like
1:47:14that around the 1900s mhm then you know
1:47:16that makes sense the 60s it makes sense
1:47:19I actually didn't even know there was a
1:47:22little resurgence and like the 80s 90s I
1:47:24didn't even know that but like so now
1:47:26where is this cut what is the feminists
1:47:29moving fighting for right now I know
1:47:31they say equality but what but what is
1:47:35exactly does that mean because I think
1:47:37there's a definitive objective in the
1:47:38other movements what is it today that
1:47:42that's a great question because you know
1:47:45you'll often see feminists on line say
1:47:48oh men's rights movement hahaha they
1:47:51have all the rights what are they
1:47:52fighting for it's actually the opposite
1:47:55women and Western civilization's do have
1:47:59all the equal rights that men have and
1:48:02actually men are being denied certain
1:48:04rights that I do think are human rights
1:48:06issues such as general integrity the
1:48:10consenting to you know a piece of your
1:48:12body being cut off or you know fathers
1:48:15rights the right to know you are a
1:48:17father or the right to to you know only
1:48:19have a responsibility for someone who is
1:48:22actually your child rather than all
1:48:24these issues we just talked about with
1:48:25fathers rights so and then you know the
1:48:30all-male Selective Service which is now
1:48:32the recent development of being
1:48:34overturned but it's actually men that
1:48:38have these these issues that haven't
1:48:43been defined in the gender equality
1:48:45discussion because feminism has been
1:48:48defining what is gender equality what
1:48:51are our initiatives what do we want to
1:48:55see changed per Wikipedia her way they
1:48:58define establish and achieve political
1:49:02and social equality of the sexes except
1:49:04for you know defining that men's issues
1:49:08are also part of the Equality discussion
1:49:10I think the biggest driving force which
1:49:14now I'm just starting to it's starting
1:49:15to make sense right now in this moment
1:49:17click the biggest issue that the the
1:49:23fire they're they're fanning to get
1:49:26feminism that keep tugging along is the
1:49:29fear of a backlash or the fear something
1:49:34being taken away because definitely one
1:49:36of the the big feminist issues that
1:49:38keeps a lot of women you know holding on
1:49:41to feminism right now is pro-choice
1:49:44being pro-choice being for abortion
1:49:47rights and you know now I am pro-choice
1:49:51I I also think that's a very nuanced
1:49:55conversation too that takes a lot of
1:49:58time to really dive into but but you
1:50:02know feminism definitely does warn women
1:50:05constantly that Planned Parenthood is
1:50:07under attack that I that they're trying
1:50:10to take away women's right time and
1:50:12abortion then I think also oddly enough
1:50:16the men's rights movement and kind of
1:50:18the growth of popularity of the movement
1:50:22and also awareness that there is this
1:50:24movement is yet another thing that's
1:50:28kind of helping feminism chug along
1:50:31right now is the fear that this is the
1:50:34backlash to women's rights that that we
1:50:37need to be feminists and we need to save
1:50:39this on the you know Oscar stage and we
1:50:42need to talk about this and all of our
1:50:43me too and times up campaigns that there
1:50:45was this backlash this fear this other
1:50:48that they think is violent and it
1:50:50promotes that once we take away women's
1:50:52rights when that isn't the case although
1:50:55there definitely is you know kind of
1:50:59underground layers of the internet and
1:51:04forums that you can see anonymous
1:51:08posters people posting online saying
1:51:12that you know awful things about women
1:51:14or
1:51:15they shouldn't be able to work or to
1:51:18vote or own property or have an
1:51:20education so the thing with that is
1:51:23they're anonymous they you know they
1:51:26have some kind of troll looking name
1:51:27there they're on you know a encrypted
1:51:31website where you have no idea of
1:51:33knowing who they are and I have found
1:51:35through making the red pill that there
1:51:38this is horrible part of reality today
1:51:41that people will pose as the enemy and
1:51:44then say horrible things online to
1:51:46basically falsely accuse that group of
1:51:49saying stuff like that I mean we know
1:51:51about this with hoaxed hate crimes you
1:51:53know what do you mean so this will
1:51:55they'll post they yeah so so for
1:51:58instance say a radical feminist wants to
1:52:02show that men's rights activists are
1:52:03scumbags so they will create a you know
1:52:07I forget what you could handle Menon ISM
1:52:12or something like that which isn't
1:52:13really a thing like use some kind of you
1:52:18know tag to make it look like they're a
1:52:20men's rights activist I see and and then
1:52:22start saying stuff like we need a you
1:52:24know - this woman in the head or
1:52:25whatever - you know falsely accused the
1:52:30movement or the group of condoning that
1:52:31kind of behavior which is really also
1:52:34interesting because Polly Lim with a
1:52:36voice for men would always flag remove
1:52:39comments that promoted violence and then
1:52:41talk about in a post why this is
1:52:44unacceptable and I think this was a
1:52:46funny story - that the mainstream media
1:52:49would then find his posts quoting the
1:52:52horrible comments that he says it's
1:52:53unacceptable in Us website and they
1:52:55would use those comments to say look at
1:52:58what men's rights activists say when he
1:53:00was posting that just show what's
1:53:02unacceptable I mean there's so many so
1:53:05political easy so I okay so I have to
1:53:07ask about that the the media coverage of
1:53:11all this we talked a little bit about
1:53:13the aftermath of the release of your
1:53:15film but I I did want to ask you about
1:53:17York's your experience because I feel
1:53:20like that is that that's almost as much
1:53:23of the discussion of the red pill more
1:53:27that like not more than but
1:53:28like just in addition to the actual film
1:53:30is is is a reaction to it you talked to
1:53:35you talked about like you talked about a
1:53:36couple interviews that you did that did
1:53:38not go well what was the general press
1:53:41tour like well oh gosh I I want to just
1:53:47let you know that I hate talking about
1:53:51all this because it's so so much and I
1:53:55feel like every time I talk about it I
1:53:56haven't said everything and then also
1:53:58pointing out all in this information for
1:54:00some reason has the you know counter
1:54:03effective then planting the seeds in
1:54:05people's minds that there is this myths
1:54:07and or that there are these horrible
1:54:09things about me or the film out there
1:54:10online and well you know where there's
1:54:12smoke there's fire maybe there's
1:54:13something to that
1:54:14so it's this I think it's a you know
1:54:18kind of press warfare where if they want
1:54:23to take down a filmmaker or smear a film
1:54:25a great thing to do is to put out all
1:54:27these lies out there where you have you
1:54:28constantly get them defending their the
1:54:31truth but then by looking defensive
1:54:35makes it look like they have something
1:54:36to hide or for that is that it's all
1:54:39called gas lighting is that what that is
1:54:40he it might maybe that's the wrong term
1:54:42but I started hearing about this
1:54:44actually I think it I heard about it in
1:54:48regards to modern-day feminism in that
1:54:51and maybe the me to movement Brett
1:54:54Kavanaugh all these cases of these guys
1:54:56that were accused no evidence you know
1:55:00this and that and then getting angry and
1:55:03then everyone essentially mopping on
1:55:06them to say no you are no no this is
1:55:09what you did know that and like for them
1:55:11to essentially have no yeah case of
1:55:13defense I yeah
1:55:15can't remember what the term was but but
1:55:16there's like a term for that yeah and
1:55:19that that that is why false accusations
1:55:21are so scary because a false accusation
1:55:25I believe is remembered more by the
1:55:28public than what the actual outcome of
1:55:31that accusation was so say the person
1:55:33was found innocent it's actually more
1:55:35remembered that they were accused of
1:55:36something than that they were found
1:55:38innocent so it's it's a really you know
1:55:41scary interest
1:55:42staying fascinating kind of thing
1:55:44because you would think that we already
1:55:46went through this with the Salem witch
1:55:47trials that hey you know maybe we
1:55:50shouldn't just burn people or drown them
1:55:52because they were accused of something
1:55:53they will actually have a legal system
1:55:55to figure out what really happened but
1:55:57now with social media we are back to in
1:55:59and I know a lot of feminists think oh
1:56:01you know your if anyone says that the me
1:56:03to movement is Salem witch trials that
1:56:06is you know the most misogynistic thing
1:56:07you could say to deflect from you know
1:56:10the victims of sexual abuse
1:56:12no we you know obviously sexual assault
1:56:17is is a very difficult you know crime to
1:56:20convict especially when so much time has
1:56:24also passed but usually it's just a you
1:56:27know he says she said or you know one
1:56:29person said against another and and our
1:56:34legal system I agree you know isn't
1:56:36perfect but we figured out okay what is
1:56:40the best to protect human rights and we
1:56:43found that you should protect assume
1:56:46people are innocent until being proven
1:56:48guilty and that may mean that guilty
1:56:51people walk free but to protect the one
1:56:53innocent person from being wrongfully
1:56:55convicted and I think some women have
1:56:56actually come out and said they would
1:56:58prefer the opposite I can't remember who
1:57:01it was but some some celebrity woman
1:57:03tweeted she would rather she would be
1:57:06okay if during the me to movement like a
1:57:09couple innocent men were yes convicted
1:57:12you know what vilified and Elstad if
1:57:15that meant that more guilty men would
1:57:18also be caught yeah and I mean that then
1:57:21that just begs the question and I don't
1:57:23necessarily expect you to have an answer
1:57:25but okay well what what's the
1:57:27alternative because I saw that no I've
1:57:30seen this all over the place but people
1:57:32seen a brick having all this is where I
1:57:36saw this happening the most saying like
1:57:37well he's not right like the what's it
1:57:43called innocent before proven guilty
1:57:44done yeah do you process due process
1:57:48cirrhosis and they're like well due
1:57:50process doesn't matter here because it's
1:57:51a job interview he's not on court we're
1:57:53not trying to convict him it's just to
1:57:55see if he
1:57:56is right for this high-level position
1:57:58and I thought well but the whole the
1:57:59whole idea of due process it's not just
1:58:01it's not just for legal purposes I think
1:58:05it's also a it's a philosophy it's a
1:58:09philosophy and do is that a philosophy
1:58:11that we want to try for in our everyday
1:58:15lives or not and if not then what's a
1:58:17better system and I think that's what
1:58:19I've yet to get an answer to what is a
1:58:22better system then saying you need
1:58:26evidence yeah and I don't expect you to
1:58:29necessarily have an answer but yeah III
1:58:31think of it has you know a virtue and
1:58:34principle of you know the our founding
1:58:38fathers and and the you know our
1:58:41Constitution everything this is why
1:58:43people want to come to America is
1:58:46because we have these protections for
1:58:48individual rights and we also have this
1:58:50idea of the American dream and you know
1:58:52that's oh there's a lot to unpack there
1:58:54but you know the capitalism and the the
1:58:57idea that you can pursue whatever
1:58:59direction you want to go in with you
1:59:02know hard work and a lot of luck but you
1:59:06know a due process is absolutely a
1:59:09tenant of our society that I deeply
1:59:14appreciate in value if I were put in
1:59:16that position the thing is that vastly
1:59:21more men are in the position of having
1:59:23to defend their innocence being
1:59:25wrongfully accused of something and and
1:59:29now with social media it doesn't even
1:59:32have to go to court for that
1:59:34conversation and kind of public stoning
1:59:36to take place which i think is one of
1:59:39the you know the the biggest I don't
1:59:42know one of the biggest problems with
1:59:45the me2 movement is that so much of this
1:59:48has happened on social media without all
1:59:52the facts or a proper defense for the
1:59:54person who is being accused and you know
1:59:58I I think it for the movement to have
2:00:01truly been successful it should have
2:00:02just stuck with going to law officials
2:00:04and to analyze the cases more deeply
2:00:07what were your thoughts on the me2
2:00:09movement
2:00:09having been in actress oh well you know
2:00:13I I knew this was going on in Hollywood
2:00:15and that's the thing is I I definitely
2:00:18think la in the film industry is its own
2:00:23bubble ice a lot of issues thing it is
2:00:27not your typical industry yeah yeah I
2:00:29and you know I've always call it the
2:00:32wild wild west because there are no
2:00:33rules and and you know if there's a
2:00:36director with a script and a lot of
2:00:38money he can cast whatever leading
2:00:40starlet he wants and he can pick however
2:00:43he wants to and there's a million of us
2:00:45so he can there's no reason for them to
2:00:49not choose their own method of casting
2:00:51and and you know and this is one of the
2:00:55areas that isn't really talked about is
2:00:59that there are a lot of willing women to
2:01:01participate in that kind of exchange of
2:01:04power sexual power for you know a career
2:01:08or the leading role in a big blockbuster
2:01:12film and I you know I think it's just
2:01:16Holly was what is its own worlds and you
2:01:22know I just
2:01:23it is interesting though because I so
2:01:27we've had these huge stories like you
2:01:28know Catholic boys coming out against
2:01:31you know priests that were doing
2:01:32it's actually horrible things and and
2:01:35then Penn State and we they it did get a
2:01:39lot of media attention it just didn't it
2:01:44didn't fit in with the you know feminist
2:01:51motivation of wanting to have a movement
2:01:55about sexual assault against women and
2:01:57you know I wonder if maybe they came out
2:02:00at the same time because the the me to
2:02:02movement The Cosby story started long
2:02:05before that but then the Harvey
2:02:07Weinstein story was really what kicked
2:02:09off the me to movement and then you know
2:02:11since then we've had 250 some mostly
2:02:14guys that have been accused of sexual
2:02:17assault from the me to movement it's to
2:02:21and you would you say that the number
2:02:22was it is
2:02:23like roughly 250 Inbal very few women
2:02:27Accio Gento was one of the women accused
2:02:31losing accusing and then accused yeah so
2:02:36you know maybe of Penn State and and all
2:02:38the different stories of you know boys
2:02:40that were being abused in different
2:02:42scenarios if it came out at the same
2:02:44time I wonder if the me to movement
2:02:45would have been more including would
2:02:47have jumped on that more would yeah and
2:02:48it stuck a little bit more well and and
2:02:51been inclusive and the dialogue that
2:02:53they used that because if you look at
2:02:55how leaders and the me to movement and
2:02:58how the press talks about the me to
2:02:59movement it's so gendered it says you
2:03:01know women are breaking their silence
2:03:03against male perpetrators and and
2:03:05horrible men in the entertainment
2:03:07industry and in news and all these
2:03:09different industries and you know it's
2:03:13not just women that are victims of this
2:03:17and I I think it would have been so much
2:03:20better for the movement to have been
2:03:22inclusive and how they talk about these
2:03:24issues and also with you know LGBT
2:03:26rights which I think feminism really has
2:03:30tried to embrace of course you have you
2:03:34know the trans exclusionary radical
2:03:36feminists that don't want to accept I'm
2:03:43so confused with yeah there are
2:03:45different factions but you know for the
2:03:48most part I think feminism in in the
2:03:50mainstream sense has embraced LGBTQI
2:03:53issues so if that's the case then why
2:03:57haven't they been gender inclusive and
2:04:00their their dialogue about you know me
2:04:03to issues because certainly you know
2:04:06there are you know transgender people
2:04:09and there are men who who are victims of
2:04:13this sort of thing so but I think
2:04:16feminism in general has taken the stance
2:04:18that we need to focus on men as the
2:04:19perpetrators so for some reason that
2:04:23also led into feminism not wanting to
2:04:25accept male victims which I don't get
2:04:28because I think we can have space and
2:04:30our compassion Bank for caring about
2:04:33male victims and then also recognize
2:04:35female perpetrators
2:04:37when this makes me think of I think for
2:04:41what was the hardest scene in your movie
2:04:43for me to get through it was the section
2:04:44where you were talking about the media
2:04:47depictions disparity between how they
2:04:50depict female atrocity or like female
2:04:53victims throughout the world and male
2:04:55victims throughout the world and you
2:04:57talk about the Boko Haram situation that
2:05:00happened a few years ago and that was
2:05:03the hardest for me to get there when
2:05:04you're going through all the newspaper
2:05:06headlines of war fatalities and you know
2:05:10I'll let you let you tell tell it but
2:05:12that was crazy that that was probably
2:05:15the biggest iOpener for me yeah thank
2:05:17you for saying that that was actually
2:05:18the first section of the film that I
2:05:20edited was the Boko Haram section just
2:05:22because it was such an aha moment for me
2:05:24it really just encapsulated what the
2:05:27men's rights activists were saying which
2:05:28is that there's this blind spot for male
2:05:30victims and so what was happening with
2:05:32Boko Haram and people that see the film
2:05:34to get a better version of the story
2:05:36that I'm about to tell in Boko Haram
2:05:40that people may remember the hashtag
2:05:42bring back our girls campaign posted it
2:05:44yeah it was very probably one of the
2:05:47biggest successful hashtags for that
2:05:50time like it really was this widespread
2:05:53you know Hollywood was holding up those
2:05:55signs on the red carpet a you know film
2:05:57from Michelle Obama I remember I was
2:06:00first lady at the time and yeah and so
2:06:04you know all I knew about that was that
2:06:06I forget how many girls I think it was
2:06:09around 200 girls were kidnapped by the
2:06:13terrorist group Boko Haram and they were
2:06:17missing for four months and in Nigeria I
2:06:20think yes yeah and so you know on on
2:06:25first take on first reading that that is
2:06:28horrible and yes that is horrible you
2:06:30know who knows what atrocities those
2:06:32couple saw and were put through and you
2:06:35know absolutely devastating and you know
2:06:39I think in just the sense of raising
2:06:41awareness about that good you know good
2:06:43that we talked about and had a worldwide
2:06:46conversation about that I'm glad that
2:06:48you know that happened
2:06:49it's just you know whitening the
2:06:53blinders a little bit we then see that
2:06:55for years there were boys young boys
2:07:00male students that were being burned
2:07:02alive in the same villages and and at
2:07:05their school by Boko Haram and there was
2:07:09actually one small news story that never
2:07:12caught wind where they reported that the
2:07:16the terrorists came into the school
2:07:18there is I think one school house for
2:07:21girls and something like four for boys
2:07:24and they told all the girls to go home
2:07:28get married you know renounce your sins
2:07:32and something else you know religious
2:07:34thing that was said to them and then
2:07:38they burned the boys alive and there was
2:07:41Karen strong talks about this in my film
2:07:44she's a men's rights activist that she
2:07:46said there was no outrage that where was
2:07:49the hashtag bring back her boys but I
2:07:52can't they're dead and this was
2:07:54happening time and time and time and
2:07:56time wouldn't headline it wasn't just
2:07:58like one instance or three instances it
2:08:01was four years going on that boys all
2:08:03the time then you can see them in groups
2:08:06of hundreds of boys or thousands of boys
2:08:09and then you look at the Boko Haram girl
2:08:12hashtag which we all agree is a great
2:08:14thing to fight for right but it was it
2:08:16was what like two three hundred or
2:08:17something like a couple hundred which
2:08:19which is you know that many too many yes
2:08:22but then with the boys I mean it's in
2:08:24the thousands and thousands and if we
2:08:26put in war and probably just worldwide
2:08:30it's probably in the hundreds of
2:08:32thousands or millions mm-hmm and and
2:08:35then it would be reported on by saying
2:08:36villagers or people rather than boys
2:08:41like deep within the article you would
2:08:43then find that it was all you know boys
2:08:44aged from 15 to 19 years old that were
2:08:47burned alive and and it was just really
2:08:50shocking to find all this because Karen
2:08:53Strom told me about this in an interview
2:08:55and then I went back until all the
2:08:56research and found these news clippings
2:08:58and and pieced it all together which you
2:09:01know apparently no deaf
2:09:03no filmmaker had done before but you
2:09:05know there wasn't even one major press
2:09:08source to show this happening and you
2:09:12know I'll kind of punched in together
2:09:14and it was just mind-blowing and you
2:09:18know I what I took away from that was
2:09:19realizing that just we don't have
2:09:24compassion for boys being burned alive
2:09:28or you know the press doesn't see it as
2:09:30being a you know money-making kind of
2:09:34article to talk about you know because
2:09:37the major news sources didn't report on
2:09:40this at all so what took it from you
2:09:42know just a local news source reporting
2:09:46about the boys being burned alive and
2:09:48then nope a local news source reporting
2:09:51on the girls being kidnapped that
2:09:52launched it into the worldwide press
2:09:55with the hashtag in Hollywood and you
2:09:57know Michelle Obama and all this to talk
2:09:58about it
2:09:59so what was that lunch there was some
2:10:02motivation to actually now talk about
2:10:04this worldwide correct me if I'm wrong
2:10:06but because you originally said that
2:10:08they took the girl they let the girls go
2:10:09and again correct me if I'm wrong but
2:10:12was it when they found out that they
2:10:14weren't getting enough media attention
2:10:16from the boys that's when they went back
2:10:18and kidnapped the girls is that what had
2:10:20happened well that's what Karen stron
2:10:22says and you know I think I couldn't
2:10:25find anything to okay so that might die
2:10:27because room you know I don't think Boko
2:10:29Haram reveals all their motivations
2:10:31online but you know I it worked if that
2:10:35was their goal it worked to get more
2:10:37media attention doing something to the
2:10:40girls not even killing them I you know
2:10:43who knows what would it been different
2:10:45if anything if the girls were just
2:10:48burned alive alongside the boys would
2:10:51that have been a different story I have
2:10:52no idea um but you know it and then
2:10:57Karen stron in the documentary of the
2:10:58red pill she says and I still just kind
2:11:02of makes my stomach turn because I don't
2:11:04this is just the language I can't get
2:11:07behind but she says that Boko Haram
2:11:09they're chivalrous and I'm like oh they
2:11:13in the film in my a documentary she says
2:11:15they're chivalrous they didn't
2:11:17he'll the girl will stay they told them
2:11:20to go home
2:11:21renounce your sins get married they
2:11:23burned the boys live and then they
2:11:25kidnapped them many years later and got
2:11:28all this media attention and so that was
2:11:31interesting because you know chivalry's
2:11:33you think of opening doors and you know
2:11:37paying for the bill about not murdering
2:11:39spare ya to spare your life because your
2:11:41yeah girl well in the world word I think
2:11:43of when you were going over all of this
2:11:46stuff is just dispensable hmm yeah and I
2:11:50think actually I would say that that
2:11:52might be the biggest takeaway I took
2:11:53away from the red pill is that how we as
2:11:58a society and media whether we realize
2:12:01it or not how we probably do look at
2:12:04males as being more dispensable than
2:12:07females I think one of the Emory said in
2:12:09your film something like the case can be
2:12:12made that we value men's work more than
2:12:15women's work but we value women's lives
2:12:17more than we value men's lives
2:12:19you know the cliche like women and
2:12:21children first and it's I think it's I
2:12:25think it's true to to an extent well
2:12:29where are the bearers of life you know
2:12:31we I I think there is a lot of power in
2:12:35our reproductive abilities and okay this
2:12:40is kind of one of my like I wonder
2:12:44conspiratorial II speaking is that where
2:12:46it might be I wonder what it what is
2:12:50gonna happen for female privilege
2:12:52because I do believe that we have our
2:12:54own unique privileges what is gonna
2:12:56happen for female privilege when we have
2:12:58reproductive technology taking over
2:13:01where people can have children without
2:13:04sex ever taking place and whether it be
2:13:08you know IVF or now there are some felt
2:13:12being artificial wombs where women won't
2:13:15even have to carry the towel themselves
2:13:16I mean we already have surrogacy as an
2:13:18option so there are women that can you
2:13:20know elect that I am I will be the
2:13:21bearer for the women who don't want to
2:13:23or can't bear themselves but when we
2:13:26start adding all these new technologies
2:13:28on how to how to have chill
2:13:30joint out sex ever taking place
2:13:34I wonder what's gonna change and you
2:13:39know are we just gonna be in a judge in
2:13:40a society where all women are just more
2:13:43working men you know I think a lot of
2:13:46our privileges do come with protecting
2:13:50women in the case of being pregnant so
2:13:54you know for instance like not having
2:13:57one in a part of Selective Service or
2:13:59the draft in the case that you know you
2:14:02don't want to put them in a situation
2:14:03where they become infertile or form or
2:14:08yeah with you know I can't really talk
2:14:11about it but you know testing things on
2:14:14them and and what know what I mean
2:14:19testing things in them well you know you
2:14:22soldiers to put their bodies up for
2:14:25experiment oh yeah it's kind of a whole
2:14:29other thing I'm told it but you know
2:14:33basically I think women's health we do
2:14:37need to protect women's health for the
2:14:41you know the child they may bear and
2:14:43raise and bring up in the world and even
2:14:46I mean gosh I'm gonna sound like so
2:14:48crazy whoo whoo but you know I've been
2:14:49looking into like EMF and you know
2:14:52radiation and how that can impact your
2:14:54health and I think there's a lot that we
2:14:57still don't know about the impact
2:15:00technology has on women's health so you
2:15:05know we have been protecting women's
2:15:07health for natural childbearing so you
2:15:12know that's why you see on so many
2:15:13bottles do not take if you're pregnant
2:15:15or breastfeeding you know that's trying
2:15:17to take care of the baby you're growing
2:15:18and so you know I think women have been
2:15:23protected from also a lot of jobs that
2:15:25could be too dangerous I have a family
2:15:28member who is in chemistry and biology
2:15:32and she's she's constantly around very
2:15:35toxic materials and so she was telling
2:15:37me that you know when she decides to
2:15:39start having a family she's gonna have
2:15:41to do something else because she's
2:15:42constantly breathing in he's very
2:15:44dangerous fumes and putting ourself in a
2:15:47very bad scenario if she were pregnant
2:15:49so you know I think we need to talk
2:15:52about that you know we need to think
2:15:53about all that as women how we're
2:15:56protecting our bodies but then also you
2:15:57know scientists are trying to figure out
2:15:58well maybe we don't have to carry about
2:16:00women's carry care about women's health
2:16:03because we can have this artificial
2:16:05reproduction type of scenario where it
2:16:07doesn't matter how a woman's health is
2:16:08we're I mean to go really extreme if
2:16:12people want to go down rabbit holes I
2:16:13mean some people theorize that you can
2:16:15create an embryo from a skin cell what
2:16:18that's a skin cell you can create an
2:16:20embryo off of how am i scratching them
2:16:22they haven't actually done that before
2:16:24no no but there are scientists that
2:16:26believe that eventually this could be a
2:16:27real thing so now you have oh my gosh I
2:16:29feel like that would just be a disaster
2:16:31I'm sorry no no embryo an egg an egg and
2:16:33then I so then get a sperm donor and now
2:16:36you have IVF artificial conception and
2:16:40then you can have either a surrogate or
2:16:42you can have an artificial womb and now
2:16:45pods create people so are we just or we
2:16:50are women just going to become more men
2:16:53in suits you know working well and then
2:16:56got him soundly I'm really not again
2:16:59spirits I swear I'm not bring up
2:17:03technology I mean I mean look at them
2:17:05this is the whole point of what we try
2:17:07to do on this show is is we think that
2:17:09we need to have all the ideas out there
2:17:11all the conversations out there and then
2:17:13people can do with it what they will
2:17:14so I think that that is an interesting
2:17:17question on okay well is this value and
2:17:21over protection of women does that does
2:17:23the fact that we bear children have to
2:17:25do with that okay well that's
2:17:26interesting and if that changes well
2:17:29that's interesting too what that means I
2:17:31have no idea I don't think I don't think
2:17:33you do either but but it's an
2:17:35interesting idea I mean but cut back to
2:17:39what we were talking about with like
2:17:40dangerous jobs I think that's a fair
2:17:42argument to say that well maybe women
2:17:46it's it's fair for us to second-guess
2:17:48doing certain jobs because of just that
2:17:50working with chemicals or whatever it is
2:17:53because of our of our of if we want our
2:17:56babies and our reproductive systems
2:17:57I think that's fair to just have that
2:18:00out there I mean there's something going
2:18:03on right now I I have no idea what what
2:18:06it is but I like I feel like in
2:18:07fertility rates are rising I mean we
2:18:10were just talking about that I didn't
2:18:11even know apparently in men it is - yeah
2:18:13mm-hmm
2:18:14do you know why I don't know for sure I
2:18:17don't think anyone knows for sure
2:18:19there's a lot of theories but yeah we
2:18:22don't yeah but but but it's but it but
2:18:24it's interesting it's in to because
2:18:25that's a part of us that it's just there
2:18:28like it's just a part of our our lives
2:18:30and our decision-making that we just
2:18:31can't yeah we just have to live with mmm
2:18:34just is so I mean yeah I'm trying to
2:18:39think of a other issue men's issues
2:18:41because there were just so many of them
2:18:42but I mean I think we went over we went
2:18:46over a ton of them actually and I don't
2:18:50think I've asked you yet but have you
2:18:52have you forgive me if I did ask you
2:18:55don't think I did have you talked with
2:18:57any feminists about what it was
2:19:00specifically in the film that they were
2:19:01against um what the ones that were like
2:19:05I agree with it and protesting it and I
2:19:07think the general feminist attack of the
2:19:13film is that it doesn't present feminism
2:19:16well and you know that's perplexing to
2:19:20me because it's you know it's the only
2:19:22film ever made on men's issues men's
2:19:24rights thousands of documentaries about
2:19:27feminism we don't hear people writing in
2:19:30hate mail saying where are you talking
2:19:32about men's issues in your film but you
2:19:36know it it it's a two-hour film I cut
2:19:39out a lot that I wanted to include and I
2:19:42had to be really selective about how you
2:19:44know what's most important to cover and
2:19:46I still don't cover everything I mean I
2:19:47don't mean talk about false accusations
2:19:49which is a you think a huge thing I mean
2:19:52I talked about briefly how rape culture
2:19:54got me down the rabbit hole but never
2:19:56really go back to that to analyze that
2:19:58because that's really a whole huge thing
2:20:01that is very nuanced and I don't even
2:20:03know what you know how I could have
2:20:05include that included that but um but
2:20:09you know I think base
2:20:11the critique of the film itself for
2:20:14people who've watched it that's the key
2:20:16thing is people who watch it it is that
2:20:19it doesn't present feminism well enough
2:20:22and you know it's also interesting to me
2:20:24because so I sent out an email thread
2:20:29while I was making the red pill movie -
2:20:31a lot of feminist context that I had
2:20:33asking who would be the best people to
2:20:36speak to regarding the men's rights
2:20:38movement but the feminist perspectives
2:20:40so who would be the feminist best time
2:20:42was to speak to so I actually had and
2:20:45this was like one of the you know at the
2:20:47time one of the best days of my life I
2:20:48had Gloria Steinem response directly and
2:20:51she told me you should talk to dr.
2:20:55Michael Kimmel Michael Kimmel is the
2:20:58best resource he's done a lot of
2:21:00research on the men's rights movement
2:21:01he's a feminist professors the one in
2:21:04young Bill right and she gave me his
2:21:06contact and and then of course you know
2:21:10my response is can I interview you and
2:21:13then she said no I'm too busy right now
2:21:15sorry they were so upset but I did I was
2:21:20in contact with her and that was you
2:21:22know being a feminist at the time I was
2:21:24I was like talking to the Pope you know
2:21:26so I interviewed Michael Kimmel and he
2:21:31speaks in the film and gosh a lot of
2:21:36interesting stuff has happened since
2:21:38then because so so I interviewed a few
2:21:42feminists we have some feminist
2:21:44protestors that talked in the film when
2:21:46my feminist friends who was pregnant at
2:21:48the time I talked to her then we have
2:21:51Katherine Spiller who's the executive
2:21:53editor of MS magazine and a part of the
2:21:57feminist majority foundation you know a
2:21:59bigwig feminist she speaks and then
2:22:03Michael Kimmel who was directly
2:22:04recommended to me by a Gloria Steinem so
2:22:06for for feminists to say I didn't
2:22:08interview the right feminists it's like
2:22:10you know first I so what they say you
2:22:11didn't interview yeah some some of them
2:22:13must say I didn't interview the right
2:22:14feminists which you know it's like well
2:22:16I interviewed feminists you know that's
2:22:18I didn't have to I you know but I did
2:22:21bring their perspective in there mainly
2:22:22because I was struggling with my own
2:22:24feminist
2:22:24and I wanted to understand what the
2:22:27counter would be and quickly realized
2:22:28that a lot of feminists hadn't really
2:22:31formulated their counter to the men's
2:22:33rights movement because they had been
2:22:35you know dismissing them so much
2:22:37thinking no one's ever gonna ask us the
2:22:40direct questions about what they say
2:22:41because we're just gonna put them in
2:22:43this other category that we'll never
2:22:46have a real conversation about you know
2:22:47mister saying I was actually wondering
2:22:49that because I was like I wonder when in
2:22:52the filmmaking process
2:22:53Kassie interviewed these feminists
2:22:55because if it
2:22:57who knows maybe maybe she interviewed
2:22:58them first and they didn't totally know
2:23:02I don't know what was going on or me if
2:23:04they were counter interviews that's very
2:23:07interesting yeah as the responses were
2:23:11not very from what I saw from the end
2:23:13product satisfactory for me anyway
2:23:17wanting to hear the other side like okay
2:23:18great we've heard this men's rights
2:23:20activist side great what's the feminist
2:23:22response to that and there wasn't really
2:23:26one yeah
2:23:27and that and that was the the tone and
2:23:29takeaway of my interviews with the
2:23:31feminists that I had was they hadn't
2:23:34done enough research into what the men's
2:23:36arts activists were saying or even had
2:23:38talked to to men's rights activists to
2:23:41know what their perspective was to
2:23:42figure out what their counter-argument
2:23:44would be so that's also partly why I
2:23:47released what I call the red pill RAW
2:23:49files on my youtube channel so that
2:23:52people who who want to see the fuller
2:23:55length versions of the interviews that
2:23:58that weren't edited down for the film
2:24:00they can go to my YouTube channel and
2:24:01see the longer you know full interviews
2:24:05to see if you know it's nice of you to
2:24:07like you know challenge me if you think
2:24:09I did creative editing to make someone
2:24:11look bad
2:24:12watch the raw interview and tell me you
2:24:14know how did I misrepresent them I wish
2:24:17I'd wanted to do that you know so you
2:24:20know and I yeah I was disappointed
2:24:24interviewing feminists that they hadn't
2:24:26done more research but also at the time
2:24:29you know it was 2013 2014 they really
2:24:32thought this that men's movement was
2:24:33just a cockroach that was you know hid
2:24:35mouth cockroach to you know never die
2:24:36but
2:24:37and but you know they thought it was
2:24:39this thing in the corner that they could
2:24:41just dismiss and you know put a rug over
2:24:43and hope that no one would bring up and
2:24:45so you know I think you know in general
2:24:50they just wanted to stick with the the
2:24:52misogynist they're violent they want to
2:24:54turn back the clock and women's rights
2:24:56and I didn't find any of those things to
2:24:58be true and then of the issues I didn't
2:25:02you know actually the the responses I
2:25:04got from a lot of feminists were very
2:25:06hypocritical because for instance
2:25:08Kathryn Spiller in one of the raw files
2:25:11I I asked her what do you what's your
2:25:15take on how men don't really have a
2:25:17choice when a woman decides she wants to
2:25:19have an abortion why what do you think
2:25:21which which we'd think of that which we
2:25:23make of that and she said well they
2:25:26should have thought of that before they
2:25:27had sex and that's the same argument
2:25:31that pro-lifers would use against
2:25:34abortion is you know if a pro-choice
2:25:36person says that well you know maybe she
2:25:39was surprised either yeah she said they
2:25:41should have thought about that before
2:25:42they had sex and had a conversation with
2:25:44the woman before they had sex but not
2:25:46after the fact after the fact it's you
2:25:48know the your control is out of your
2:25:50hands but if someone if a say pro-life
2:25:52or were to say that about the woman they
2:25:54would be up in arms about that right cuz
2:25:56the feminist would say you know that she
2:25:58should if she's not ready to be a mom
2:26:00she should have the right to abort or
2:26:02not ready to give birth and you know a
2:26:06pro-lifer would say well they should
2:26:08just thought of that before they had sex
2:26:09so you know that those kind of responses
2:26:12and rebuttals were a huge letdown and
2:26:15and definitely part of the reason why I
2:26:16dropped the label feminists because I
2:26:18probably the number one reason I dropped
2:26:21the label of feminists was because of
2:26:22the hypocrisy that I was seeing within
2:26:24feminists and regarding men's issues in
2:26:26the in the broader perspective but you
2:26:30know I still stand for women's right
2:26:31yeah you also say that you're so you say
2:26:33you're not a feminist anymore but you're
2:26:35also not a men's rights activist and why
2:26:39is that oh that's a good question you
2:26:42know in some ways that you think the
2:26:46movement has blinders on for men's
2:26:48issues although I think they have more
2:26:50of an understand
2:26:51of what women experience and what
2:26:55women's issues are because the
2:26:57mainstream you know culture talks so
2:27:00much about it that it's impossible to
2:27:02not hear what women and women's issues
2:27:04are today it's so bombarded and you know
2:27:07social media and the news and films so
2:27:11but I think they are still you know
2:27:13they're focused on men's issues and I
2:27:15don't blame them for that someone has to
2:27:17be because you know we need people to
2:27:20work on those issues those lawsuits that
2:27:22really are problematic and but you know
2:27:27that's not my fight and you know I think
2:27:30as far as my charity work for men's
2:27:33issues I think the red pill film did
2:27:36start a very big discussion about men's
2:27:39issues that needed to take place and I'm
2:27:42so happy that that's what it did I hope
2:27:47people weren't harmed in the process
2:27:48I've heard of people that like broke up
2:27:50their marriages and stuff oh I know it's
2:27:53just because it's hard to be really
2:27:55close to someone who you know is going
2:27:58to dig their heels in for one side and
2:28:00and then the other person's view start
2:28:01to change and if you're not open and
2:28:03willing to hear how their views have
2:28:05changed or why they've changed you know
2:28:08it's hard
2:28:08I've lost friendships well do you have a
2:28:11UH I don't know if you feel comfortable
2:28:15asking but I was wondering about your
2:28:17feminist friend in the film yeah and how
2:28:19did she respond to the film oh my gosh
2:28:21lovely oh she so I interviewed her when
2:28:25she was pregnant and that was in 2013
2:28:28and then you know I was still filming
2:28:30the red pill so I was constantly
2:28:31traveling we weren't keeping in touch
2:28:32log we don't live in the same town so I
2:28:35hadn't seen her in a while but every
2:28:36time I would check in with her she was
2:28:39going down her own researching rabbit
2:28:42hole because of all the questions that I
2:28:43asked her about the men's rights
2:28:45movement of these issues too a lot of it
2:28:48she didn't know what her position was or
2:28:50had never heard of these issues so then
2:28:52she started researching on her own issue
2:28:54she was a feminist writer author
2:28:56journalist so she's already a very you
2:28:58know inquisitive person so she went down
2:29:01her own rabbit hole without me learning
2:29:03about
2:29:05mence issues and it's kind of you know
2:29:07whatever you want to call the wool
2:29:08community or whatever and you know
2:29:12basically we kind of both found
2:29:14ourselves in a very similar lowest riot
2:29:17with our views yeah because you know
2:29:21even though one of the worst reviews
2:29:24that the film ever got and it was the
2:29:26first review the film ever thought would
2:29:27she's I know I just started ball rolling
2:29:29at least it was just a pill but it was
2:29:33in the Village Voice by a author names
2:29:37Alan sure stole and it was just horrible
2:29:42horrible horrible review and not fair at
2:29:45all like I wish I could see a review
2:29:47from him of the feminist film to see if
2:29:49if he was actually being fair to the
2:29:50filmmaking process and the directing
2:29:53process or if it was strictly a
2:29:55political vendetta against me but he
2:30:00started the ball rolling and gosh boy
2:30:04I'm so sorry I just we were talking
2:30:06about about your friend and you two
2:30:09going through this like feminists you
2:30:14know transformation and oh yes so so his
2:30:19title of his title of the article was
2:30:23the red pill
2:30:25what was it or maybe it was you cannot
2:30:31unsee the red pill and something like
2:30:34that you cannot unsee the red pill and
2:30:36as awful as the review was the title I
2:30:40was very pleased with it that's actually
2:30:42not a bad so I was like that could
2:30:44actually be a good a good review yeah I
2:30:46was very pleased with it because I was
2:30:48like yeah that's true you cannot unsee
2:30:50it because when you learn about the
2:30:52different men's issues and and you start
2:30:54to see the hypocrisy within the what
2:30:57claims to be the gender equality
2:30:58movement not being inclusive of male
2:31:00victims you cannot unsee it you cannot
2:31:03unlearn this information and you know
2:31:06it's just the more and more time goes by
2:31:09you see these little red pills popping
2:31:11and and it's I think that's what
2:31:13happened with my feminist friend which
2:31:15she started to hear about this she
2:31:17started to do some research and then the
2:31:18more
2:31:19more years went by you can't deny
2:31:21something strange is going on and but
2:31:25you say that wasn't the case with all
2:31:26your friends now it one of my friends
2:31:32went to a screening of the film to
2:31:35support me and she brought her
2:31:36boyfriends and they broke up I think
2:31:38that night maybe the next morning she
2:31:41called me the next day telling me what
2:31:42happened she was really upset about the
2:31:44film why did they break up
2:31:47because he liked the film but she was my
2:31:51friend and she invited him because her
2:31:55friend was the filmmaker yeah so and we
2:31:59haven't you know been the same sense how
2:32:02has it been for you trying to have this
2:32:05conversation with the film and I asked
2:32:08kind of its kind of a personal question
2:32:10on my part because I've had I've had
2:32:14similar revelation and the times I've
2:32:18tried I haven't even had this
2:32:20conversation yet with anyone the times
2:32:22I've tried to have this conversation has
2:32:25been immediately met with hostility so I
2:32:29think I just kind of stopped before I
2:32:30like lose all my friends so how do you
2:32:34how have you navigated that do you feel
2:32:37like I don't know yeah have you how have
2:32:40you navigated it God you know to be very
2:32:46honest and this isn't gonna be
2:32:48encouraging to you at all I'm sorry but
2:32:51basically I just don't talk to my
2:32:53personal contacts about the film or what
2:32:57I've learned unless I know they're
2:32:59open-minded and they kind of get it and
2:33:01you know thank goodness my husband got
2:33:04it because he and I we were dating for
2:33:06two years I was feminist and then I
2:33:09started making the red pill so I went on
2:33:11this whole transition while being with
2:33:13him and he he grew up in Berkeley or in
2:33:16East Bay Northern California and you
2:33:20know he grew up feminists and so luckily
2:33:24he was learning all this with me and
2:33:25stuck with me and understood where I was
2:33:28coming from and and luckily my mother
2:33:31was the same
2:33:32she was my producer on the film and she
2:33:36you know called herself feminist and
2:33:38started to learn about these issues with
2:33:41me and and we both started to shift kind
2:33:43of get together I hope she was okay with
2:33:46me saying this that my sister took a lot
2:33:48longer she was very uncomfortable about
2:33:52the whole idea of me and my mom making
2:33:54this film and and had a really tough
2:33:58time I think and now it's starting to
2:34:00really you know she's a few years behind
2:34:04me and my mom as far as when our journey
2:34:06down the rabbit hole started but she's
2:34:08she's now like you know fallen with us
2:34:12and so but I do have some family members
2:34:17and some friends that I just don't talk
2:34:19about it you know and I think they've
2:34:22also determined to not talk about it
2:34:24some of them have decided to bombard me
2:34:29with every counter article they see or
2:34:34tweet or anything they were you know the
2:34:37New York Post writes something or
2:34:39Washington Post or New York Times
2:34:41they'll immediately send it to me and
2:34:43it's interesting because you know I was
2:34:45a feminist before a lot of them
2:34:48considered themselves feminists and I
2:34:49was like yes thank you I know yeah when
2:34:53I first came out thank you yeah and you
2:34:56know and I never like sent them all
2:34:58these kind of articles and things to try
2:35:00to convince them back when I was a
2:35:01feminist and they weren't but you know I
2:35:05think it just made a lot of them
2:35:06uncomfortable that I made the red pill
2:35:08and luckily a lot of them stuck with me
2:35:14and still you know still came to my
2:35:16wedding even though I know like you know
2:35:20we they didn't they don't like the film
2:35:21and but you know I also I don't know the
2:35:27red the red pill isn't all of me you
2:35:29know it's it's definitely such a huge
2:35:32part of you know the work that I've
2:35:33contributed to the world and probably
2:35:36the Moke yeah it is the proudest thing
2:35:38I've ever done absolutely but you know I
2:35:42I just have to find other commonalities
2:35:45with my friend and friends
2:35:46family that don't like the film yeah
2:35:48that's kind of where I've gotten to is I
2:35:50just if I feel like there's not a good
2:35:52reaction to it I kind of just have
2:35:54dropped it which sucks because you want
2:35:57to be able to lean on your friends when
2:35:58you're dealing with stuff or you have
2:36:00questions about life things but whatever
2:36:04you know friendships relationships
2:36:05change I guess and then you to your
2:36:08point it's strengthened some as well the
2:36:14last question about the red pill that I
2:36:16I have is after watching the movie I
2:36:21feel like I feel like what I what I saw
2:36:25was feminists and men's rights activists
2:36:28fighting for so many gender issues that
2:36:31seem to overlap in in a lot of ways why
2:36:34aren't feminists and men's rights
2:36:37activists working together well that is
2:36:41the age-old question that's something I
2:36:44asked myself a lot during making the
2:36:45film and never really got a good answer
2:36:48i I do think that feminism has excluded
2:36:58men's rights activists and men's issues
2:37:00from the discussion purposefully with
2:37:06the idea that well they're the
2:37:08privileged they're they already have all
2:37:12the power and so the feminist view is
2:37:15that men are already up here
2:37:16women are down here we're trying to work
2:37:19on our issues and then we can start
2:37:21talking about men's issues women's
2:37:22issues together so that's I think how
2:37:25they you know excuse not working with
2:37:28men's rights activists or not including
2:37:30their issues in the discussion where
2:37:34I've come to land with my views is that
2:37:37I I do think that we can work on all of
2:37:40them at the same time we should probably
2:37:41should talk about them at the same time
2:37:43because if working on women's issues
2:37:46does in some way harm or take away
2:37:51something from men and men's issues or
2:37:54men's rights and I know a lot of
2:37:56feminists would you know that's what
2:37:58they accuse men's rights activist
2:38:00of doing is is that men's rights
2:38:03activists fear that working on women's
2:38:05issues will take something away from men
2:38:07and feminists insist that won't happen
2:38:08maybe you could you know if you're
2:38:10talking about custody battles and family
2:38:13rights and you know if we're talking
2:38:15about what women really want to have
2:38:17happen and they're in the rights and
2:38:18reproductive you know options we
2:38:22probably should talk about the other
2:38:24players in that fields you know because
2:38:28it could have a direct effect a lot of
2:38:31men's rights activists have told me that
2:38:32it feminists lobbyists have fought
2:38:35consistently for primary custody and
2:38:41there's some feminists quotes that that
2:38:46children are a bargaining chip in child
2:38:50custody battles and that you need to
2:38:52retain primary custody of the children
2:38:54to basically get get the better end of
2:38:56the deal yeah I mean really horrible
2:38:59stuff and so you know I think we should
2:39:03talk about it all together at the same
2:39:04time you know I even talking about it's
2:39:11just to throw out another issue that
2:39:12maybe we should talk about men's issues
2:39:14at the same time of women's issues with
2:39:17the all-male Selective Service and and
2:39:19the draft I've asked some soldiers what
2:39:21would you think of women being drafted
2:39:23into combat or drafted into war and
2:39:27there are a lot of guys that are that
2:39:30don't like the idea of having women in
2:39:33combat because they're still very
2:39:37chivalrous and they they want to protect
2:39:39women go out of their way and you know
2:39:43also you can argue about strength and
2:39:45you know if there's a wounded male
2:39:48soldier who's a big guy you know you
2:39:50need another soldier that can carry that
2:39:51weight to take him to safety and well I
2:39:54know that conversation comes up with
2:39:55like firefighters and female police
2:39:58officers and whatnot and and I don't
2:40:02know if the standards have been lowered
2:40:04to get more women in but you know I'm
2:40:06always like I mean hey if they meet the
2:40:07standards they meet the standards if
2:40:09they meet the physical requirements they
2:40:12meet the physical requirements
2:40:13but if we're talking about lowering them
2:40:16to a lot more women in or you know
2:40:19whatever the situation is I think that's
2:40:23a conversation that needs to be had yeah
2:40:25and I have heard that they've lowered
2:40:27the standards for at least in the
2:40:29military so you know as far as can we
2:40:33talk about men's as she's in work
2:40:35towards men's issues at the same time
2:40:37time as women's issues yeah I I do see
2:40:41that there's a lot of gray area because
2:40:43compassion isn't finite it shouldn't be
2:40:46a zero-sum game for compassion but
2:40:49resources and funding is finite you know
2:40:53in certain scenarios I mean there is if
2:40:55someone's gonna open their wallet for
2:40:57and they only have X amount of dollars
2:40:59to donate to a cause maybe having you
2:41:02know a different gender equality
2:41:03movement that's separate from the
2:41:06feminist movement could you know affect
2:41:09what feminism is or feminist groups are
2:41:12trying to do for women's issues so so
2:41:16you know it's it's it's something we
2:41:18have to consider everything and it's all
2:41:20gray area and the truth is somewhere in
2:41:22the middle and and I think you know
2:41:25ultimately we should have multiple
2:41:27perspectives at the table to raise you
2:41:30know the points that need to be had
2:41:32feminists always say that we need women
2:41:36at you know at the boardroom tables
2:41:39because women do bring a unique
2:41:40perspective I think we also need you
2:41:43know men's rights activists at the table
2:41:44for gender equality discussions if it's
2:41:47a majority of feminists we should have
2:41:48an alternate perspective there so just
2:41:50bring a little counter balance yeah so
2:41:56this film took up you said since its
2:41:592013 so six years six years six years of
2:42:03your life yeah what have you been up to
2:42:06since the press and the release of this
2:42:09film kind of winded down how much time
2:42:12do you have this is the Internet okay so
2:42:20I released the film in a limited
2:42:23theatrical release in fall of 20
2:42:27sixteen and then it had a worldwide
2:42:30release in March 2017 so violent VOD
2:42:34video on-demand platforms if people can
2:42:37still see it Amazon Prime iTunes YouTube
2:42:40video Google Play and so what have I
2:42:47done since the world I release well I've
2:42:49done a lot of you know first of all I'd
2:42:53like to say I've never sought out an
2:42:55interview or press at all I've I've
2:42:58never put anything out asking that's
2:43:02nice
2:43:02at least not since the release of the
2:43:04film during the Kickstarter I did and I
2:43:05was like can you can you help me with my
2:43:07Kickstarter but no since the release of
2:43:09the film I've never so every interview
2:43:11I've done and I've done a ton of them
2:43:12they all approached me and asked me to
2:43:15be here and there and everywhere and the
2:43:17Australia trip was you know the press
2:43:20tour I was invited on and we did tons of
2:43:24community screenings where people would
2:43:26purchase a screening license and host a
2:43:28screening there in their own town or
2:43:30country and worldwide I mean we've had
2:43:33screenings everywhere from currently one
2:43:35happening in Japan next or in May but
2:43:38we've had screenings and Oslo and and
2:43:42just all over Europe and even in Africa
2:43:45and Wow definitely but the biggest
2:43:47territories that we've had press and
2:43:50screenings as Canada Australia and the
2:43:53UK America interestingly enough I do
2:43:56think that there's some kind of gag
2:43:58order that's you know telling the press
2:44:00- okay not don't look that way don't
2:44:02write about that and let's just try to
2:44:03hope that it disappears that's really
2:44:05interesting yeah but you know still
2:44:08people hear about it so you know it's
2:44:11still I know a lot of people in the US
2:44:12have seen it so you know the press took
2:44:16forever it's still going obviously so
2:44:19now two years after the the film's
2:44:22worldwide release I'm still doing press
2:44:24still trying to you know manage running
2:44:27a production company that's basically
2:44:29just myself my husband a couple help
2:44:33here and there and and I I had so many
2:44:38people
2:44:41a blindly submitting you know ideas for
2:44:43documentaries for whatever's next and
2:44:45had had so many great ideas thrown at me
2:44:48and considered all of them I mean I
2:44:50seriously considered probably you know a
2:44:52good dozen documentary topics and and so
2:44:58I thought you know I'd be starting a new
2:45:01feature by now but just kind of give you
2:45:05like a rundown in the past year because
2:45:07this is when I've I've really kind of
2:45:09gone off the map I've been avoiding
2:45:11social media good for you we've just
2:45:15getting on social media and we are like
2:45:17wow this is intense Twitter in
2:45:21particular like wow yeah yeah and I do
2:45:24think that there's like a very concerted
2:45:25you know campaign to try to bully me off
2:45:28Twitter which is kind of worked really
2:45:29yeah just you know people who are who
2:45:32want to get me down that always tagged
2:45:34me in their posts that are you know
2:45:35horrible about me or the film and and
2:45:37it's just constantly you know so I'll
2:45:39avoid twitter for weeks on end and then
2:45:41log in to see what's up and then it's
2:45:43just hundreds of these you know people
2:45:46here Eterna have you ever thought about
2:45:47on reporting harassment I just saw this
2:45:50big thing I would think it was like Joe
2:45:51Rogan's podcast with Tim Poole and a cow
2:45:54a Jack Dorsey the CEO of Twitter and
2:45:57then someone else from Twitter and that
2:45:59was the entire episode was I'm talking
2:46:01about who they decided to ban or censor
2:46:03or not and harassment and they were
2:46:05saying their whole thing is trying to
2:46:08prevent people from getting harassed so
2:46:11I don't know if your case would wait um
2:46:12I don't qualify for that and if it helps
2:46:14your experience on online but it's so
2:46:19interesting because you know I do think
2:46:21that sometimes complaining about
2:46:27harassment and death threats and all
2:46:29that goes a little too far where people
2:46:31are just kind of you know just just
2:46:33disagreeing with someone on Twitter yeah
2:46:34but can then be reported as harassment
2:46:36and uh gosh there was a case in Canada I
2:46:40think it was like Elliott Elliott Scott
2:46:42oh gosh I can't remember his name now
2:46:44that he he was banned from using his
2:46:48computer for things like over a year
2:46:50because he was arguing like debating
2:46:51with feminists on Twitter and he lost
2:46:53not only his
2:46:55a Twitter account but also usage of
2:46:57going online he lost his ability to go
2:47:01online
2:47:02yeah the Canadian government prevented
2:47:05him from going online for a year
2:47:07gosh I'm trying to remember his name
2:47:08what was it gosh so sorry but I yeah
2:47:13gosh I don't even know what you would
2:47:15Google I did it I wanted to say Elliot's
2:47:18got something but anyways yeah this was
2:47:21going on I think around 2016 I want to
2:47:25say maybe 2017 but he was just debating
2:47:29with feminists on Twitter and he also
2:47:31worked in I think graphics graphic
2:47:33design so he lost work for yeah because
2:47:35that's all on time yeah so you know that
2:47:40that you know was a case of feminists
2:47:43who believe that they were being
2:47:44harassed because a men's rights advocate
2:47:47was debating with them and you know what
2:47:51I think the ruling was not right so yeah
2:47:58I haven't reported harassment just
2:47:59because I don't know I just don't want
2:48:02it to go too far a lot of people upset
2:48:04me and online but I haven't I don't want
2:48:07to you know start crying wolf and well
2:48:10if it is really bad yeah yeah but then
2:48:14we did have one death threat of of a
2:48:18screening and I think was Australia
2:48:20where someone tweeted saying that they
2:48:22were going to shoot up the theater oh my
2:48:24gosh a movie premiere style and so the
2:48:28government looked into that and they
2:48:30couldn't figure out who was her
2:48:32what is with Australia I had no idea
2:48:34Australia it was so hostile yeah I don't
2:48:38know I don't know like yeah I don't know
2:48:41if I can but anyhoo so so this past year
2:48:46I've been off so for me a lot and it
2:48:48just became too much and I think you
2:48:51know the best way for me to express
2:48:53myself is through filmmaking and that's
2:48:55what I want to you know get back into
2:48:57but so you know right now we're in 2019
2:49:01already June 2018 I got married after
2:49:04seven years being with the guys about
2:49:06time thank you
2:49:08it's a great wedding wonderful and then
2:49:11we went on a little honeymoon slash work
2:49:13trip and July we went to the UK and then
2:49:18August we adopted two kittens wonderful
2:49:21Gigi and Dyna miss them already and then
2:49:25September I ended up finally all right
2:49:29have a new project I'm gonna work on a
2:49:31new feature documentary my mom who's
2:49:34pretty stolen my future films with me we
2:49:36just like went to the drawing board
2:49:38literally and thought up this really
2:49:41complicated philosophical heavy cerebral
2:49:45documentary that we I guess we're
2:49:49starting pre-production on in that month
2:49:51in September and then October rolls
2:49:55around October 8th and my husband and I
2:49:59find out we're pregnant and it was you
2:50:03know so joyous and everything
2:50:05spoiler not pregnant now so what ended
2:50:09up happening was I had a month of just
2:50:14pregnancy bliss I was so happy so I
2:50:18found I was pregnant at four weeks and
2:50:20so five weeks ago and I'm making the
2:50:24nursery right already declaring you know
2:50:27six weeks I'm getting my first prenatal
2:50:30appointment and I you know I'm just
2:50:34totally starry-eyed and so excited and
2:50:37and end up telling my family so that we
2:50:40can start planning the new documentary
2:50:42around maybe being pregnant
2:50:45seven weeks comes around I'm realizing
2:50:48that I'm probably not going to be doing
2:50:49the travel that I had plans because I
2:50:52was going to be speaking at a conference
2:50:54in Ohio about campus equality and I was
2:50:57going to be right at like the nine week
2:50:59mark of my pregnancy which apparently is
2:51:01when your symptoms are really horrible
2:51:03so throwing up nausea and you know
2:51:06fatigue and everything and I was already
2:51:07experiencing a lot of really bad
2:51:09symptoms and then and then around the
2:51:14seven week mark I'm gonna get graphic if
2:51:19you don't mind that's okay I so
2:51:21you know I start spotting and some some
2:51:24women here were pregnant
2:51:25that's just what they experienced and
2:51:27it's no big deal but I told my doctors
2:51:31and they brought me in for my first
2:51:33ultrasound and you know I was pretty far
2:51:37along by that point and they all I could
2:51:41see was a gestational sac they hadn't
2:51:43seen yolk sac yet which is going to show
2:51:45where the baby would grow and they're
2:51:48like okay well we we need to figure out
2:51:51where your baby's growing right now
2:51:52because we don't see it in your uterus
2:51:54but your HCG levels which is your
2:51:57hormone your pregnancy hormone it's high
2:52:01enough where we should be seeing it by
2:52:02now so this could be alarming it could
2:52:05be in your fallopian tube which is
2:52:07potentially life-threatening because if
2:52:09it grows in your fallopian tube this is
2:52:11called ectopic pregnancy it could
2:52:13rupture you could die
2:52:16I'll definitely lose your fallopian tube
2:52:18so they they put me on you know
2:52:21high-risk pregnancy watch and then kept
2:52:28going to my new ultrasounds my HCG
2:52:30levels kept rising they they still
2:52:32couldn't figure out where the baby was
2:52:35by the time when we should have been
2:52:37hearing the heartbeat you weren't and
2:52:40and it just became basically a month of
2:52:45just tons of doctor's appointments 2 ER
2:52:52visits from pain and not knowing where
2:52:57the pregnancy was and knowing that that
2:52:58could be life-threatening and tons of
2:53:02ultrasounds and tons of bloodwork which
2:53:06was my least favorite thing of all of it
2:53:08and it just became about a month of
2:53:12these doctor's visits and you know panic
2:53:17and sadness and grief and and because
2:53:22I'm a documentarian I knew I wanted to
2:53:24document my pregnancy and I started
2:53:26documenting it right when we found out
2:53:28and I was telling my family and you know
2:53:30us all the good stuff all the happy
2:53:32memories were documented and so when I
2:53:34started
2:53:35the process of miscarrying I just kept
2:53:39documenting so I long story short I my
2:53:46miscarriage happened between eight and
2:53:48twelve weeks so it was that long it took
2:53:51that long to finally for my body to
2:53:53naturally purge the the pregnancy and
2:53:57just it's basically like a home birthing
2:54:00experience which is really shocking at
2:54:02sea all this stuff I never knew because
2:54:04I just never asked those kind of
2:54:05questions or anyone who had had a
2:54:07miscarriage and I'm 32 years old and I I
2:54:09didn't expect that I would be high-risk
2:54:12for that you're not just on medically
2:54:15high risk for being 32 years old but
2:54:17your risk does increase as you age and
2:54:20so all this even just the happy
2:54:25pregnancy part was a learning experience
2:54:26for me so then to learn about the
2:54:28miscarriage part was really eye-opening
2:54:29and really scary and you know my heart
2:54:33just goes out to oh my god every single
2:54:34woman that has pregnancy was like at
2:54:37different stages to say ever since mine
2:54:42I've been fairly open with people I know
2:54:46one-on-one talking about what happened
2:54:49because it's just it's a part of me it
2:54:51definitely affected me and and you know
2:54:55it happened but this is my first time
2:54:57its sharing it on cameras and thanks for
2:54:59being an open ear so I've learned that
2:55:03it's actually really common for all
2:55:06doctor confirmed pregnancies one in five
2:55:09ended miscarriage and so to have a
2:55:11doctor confirm pregnancy you're already
2:55:13you know have your first prenatal
2:55:15appointment and you're pretty far along
2:55:18so there are tons of more miscarriages
2:55:20that happen before you even know you're
2:55:22pregnant or but but I think when you're
2:55:25trying to conceive you're wanting the
2:55:28family you're wanting the baby and
2:55:30you're going through you know all the
2:55:32steps to to make the baby as healthy and
2:55:35happy as possible and you know I quit
2:55:38coffee and low wage is like the hardest
2:55:40thing for me because I don't want it I
2:55:41know I know there's conflicting
2:55:42information about that but you know I
2:55:45just didn't want to do anything to hurt
2:55:46my baby and so I quit coffee which is
2:55:48the hardest lake
2:55:49you know drug withdrawal kind of you
2:55:51know and then it just you know eating
2:55:56better and your health and also you know
2:55:58canceling work because my symptoms were
2:56:00really bad and I don't know if I had a
2:56:029:00 to 5:00 Monday through Friday I
2:56:04don't know how I could have been at work
2:56:06for that time for that whole not even
2:56:09from just the physical trauma which was
2:56:12intense but the emotional you know I was
2:56:15I was out of civilization for that month
2:56:19dealing with all this and you're just
2:56:21paralyzed in your own grief and so when
2:56:27you ask me what I've been up to I so by
2:56:31Thanksgiving in November I was finally
2:56:36not pregnant anymore and went through
2:56:39the holidays and trying to figure out
2:56:41okay what's next and I thought I'm going
2:56:43to go back to the film that I was
2:56:44working on in September I thought I'm
2:56:46just gonna jump right back into this
2:56:47topic and then I just started you know
2:56:52having these big life questions and
2:56:54realizing oh you know I am 32 I'm
2:56:58turning 33 in May I just got married I
2:57:01do want a family and I didn't always
2:57:05know I wanted a family I thought I would
2:57:06always just be happy being a career
2:57:08woman but so what I thought and you know
2:57:12I proudly said to my friends growing up
2:57:14in high school that I was never gonna
2:57:15have kids and they're like oh your mind
2:57:17will change I'm like no and of course
2:57:20but but I think why because people you
2:57:26know people who choose to be childless
2:57:27to wonder like why do you want to do
2:57:30that and for me my family is just the
2:57:35best thing in my world and including my
2:57:37husband but in my parents my sister my
2:57:39niece and nephew and so I think it's
2:57:43more of you know as selfish as it sounds
2:57:47it's like an investment in your future
2:57:49because you know my mom's now a grandma
2:57:51and to my niece and nephew and you know
2:57:55her her father's gone her mother's
2:57:59Alzheimer's and you know it's
2:58:03just as you age you know there will be a
2:58:05time when you will be the oldest person
2:58:08of your family i I do want a family and
2:58:11I think my husband would be a great dad
2:58:14and and I just don't know if I don't
2:58:20know if will be in the cards for me I
2:58:21may never be able to but I at least want
2:58:24to exhaust all the options to see if it
2:58:27is in the cards I know I also have an
2:58:31uphill battle with a few things I of
2:58:33course I think every woman who has an ax
2:58:35miscarriage inevitably goes into you
2:58:40know their their memory and like okay
2:58:41what did I do to call that cause this
2:58:43what about my health or what it was I
2:58:45too stressed or today and I really have
2:58:48listed out all the things and maybe some
2:58:50of them are accurate maybe it was being
2:58:54too stressed and being a workaholic and
2:58:55and sacrificing my health to make this
2:58:57last film you know a lot of times and
2:59:00and or endometriosis runs in my family
2:59:04and my mom my grandma Hannah they had
2:59:05full hysterectomies by by the time they
2:59:07were 40 would I use that endometrium I
2:59:10know I'm out of it I don't actually know
2:59:12what it is yeah so endometriosis is is a
2:59:16it's a I hope I say this correctly it's
2:59:19it's a bleeding disorder for women
2:59:22during their menstrual cycle and it's
2:59:24basically where the the blood the lining
2:59:27of your uterus also develops on the
2:59:29outside of the uterus and so you develop
2:59:31these blood clots and so every every
2:59:34menstrual cycle you have it gets worse
2:59:36and worse and worse
2:59:37and while I was in in the hospital for
2:59:41my miscarriage they did find a
2:59:43endometrium on my left ovary although
2:59:47that that wouldn't have caused the
2:59:48miscarriage but it would it could make
2:59:54it more difficult for me to to get
2:59:56pregnant in the future so so I have that
2:59:58kind of looming over me as as telling me
3:00:02that maybe my window is shorter than the
3:00:04average woman and you know for some odd
3:00:09reason I just I really want to try to do
3:00:12it naturally I don't want to in
3:00:16my mind will change eventually or maybe
3:00:19not but right now I just if I can
3:00:21conceive and have a baby naturally I
3:00:23want to do it that way if we can't and
3:00:25we're definitely open to adoption I know
3:00:28there's other options there's a freezing
3:00:30and there's IVF and surrogacy and all
3:00:32the other things but so when I when I
3:00:36ask these big life questions maybe it's
3:00:38the holidays it does that do you like
3:00:40where are you going with your life
3:00:41that's what they always say life is
3:00:42great during the holidays the holidays
3:00:43are great but if you're going through
3:00:46something during the holidays it's
3:00:47actually really not going great yeah
3:00:49it's a good time to reevaluate your
3:00:52trajectory and and I just realized that
3:00:54you know maybe I have a short window for
3:00:57the ability to have my own child and so
3:01:03I decided really really hard to citizen
3:01:07I decided to put that feature
3:01:09documentary that we were developing on
3:01:11the shelf for now and and what I've
3:01:15actually been pouring my energy and
3:01:18passion into is working on at this point
3:01:24what I think will be a mini documentary
3:01:25about miscarriage about my experience at
3:01:29least and the reason I decided that was
3:01:33because there was a period called
3:01:35waiting to miscarry where the doctor
3:01:38tells you you're going to miscarry but
3:01:40it hasn't happened yet and they give you
3:01:42the option of either having what's
3:01:44called a DNC which is an abortion or
3:01:48miscarrying naturally which is basically
3:01:51this kind of home birthing experience so
3:01:54I decided to try to do it naturally and
3:01:57they told me if I don't if I don't
3:02:00miscarry naturally then they'll have to
3:02:02bring me in for a DNC
3:02:03and you know was really kind of learning
3:02:05that that it goes on your medical record
3:02:08as an abortion I just thought that was
3:02:10kind of weird because it's not like I
3:02:11always thought of an abortion as you
3:02:13elect to you know you're not ready to be
3:02:15a parent but this is a case where you
3:02:17really wanted it and so I wanted to
3:02:21miscarry naturally so they sent me home
3:02:24they told me they still didn't know
3:02:28where it was so I was
3:02:30still high-risk for topic pregnancy of
3:02:32it being in the fallopian tube so they
3:02:34just told me if you have any you know
3:02:36major pain go to the ER but so I went
3:02:42home and I had this period of waiting to
3:02:43miscarry and what I did was I went on
3:02:45youtube and I wanted to watch every
3:02:47video I could about miscarriage to know
3:02:49what to expect because I basically felt
3:02:51like I was waiting for this massive
3:02:52storm to happen and I had no idea what
3:02:54to expect and all I can find there were
3:02:57a lot of videos but all I could find was
3:03:00women reflecting on their miscarriage
3:03:02and doing their best with their memory
3:03:05to to try to describe what it was like
3:03:07kind of like I'm doing now and what I
3:03:11couldn't find was a real-life
3:03:13documentation of of the journey of the
3:03:17process and and I knew I had that with
3:03:21all all my video diaries and I've I've
3:03:23been making video diaries since I was I
3:03:24think 18 so you know this is nothing new
3:03:27to me I wasn't planning on making a
3:03:28miscarriage documentary by a certain
3:03:32point I knew that I should just follow
3:03:33through and document everything in the
3:03:35case that something could come of this
3:03:37but so what I hope my mini documentary
3:03:42does is is it's something that women who
3:03:45are waiting to miscarry that they can
3:03:48watch to know what to expect whether
3:03:51it's you know the medical the medical
3:03:54implications the the physical impact and
3:03:58also an emotional experience which is
3:04:00definitely roller coaster and and I
3:04:04definitely went through all the stages
3:04:05of grief from anger to bargaining to
3:04:08denial and so so I've been working on
3:04:13editing that for a little bit and I
3:04:16don't know what what's gonna come of it
3:04:17I think it's become something bigger
3:04:19than I initially set out to make but
3:04:21right now it's just it's a passion
3:04:23project but I just need to get out of me
3:04:25just like a singer/songwriter needs to
3:04:27write that song to to be able to move on
3:04:30so I know that you know probably a lot
3:04:33of my fans or followers from the red
3:04:37pill are not going to have any interest
3:04:38in seeing this film which they probably
3:04:40shouldn't I I unless you're going
3:04:43through
3:04:44or trying to help someone you know going
3:04:45through it I don't think you should
3:04:47probably watch it because it's it's
3:04:49gonna be graphic it's gonna be long you
3:04:53know it's really raw and I think the
3:04:56reason why I'm kind of willing to let
3:04:58myself be the the guinea pig for this is
3:05:00because I've already I've already kind
3:05:03of made my life this very transparent
3:05:05you know open for stonings you know I I
3:05:11don't have a job to protect at this
3:05:14point you know or a reputation even to
3:05:17protect anymore well no you've been
3:05:22right you've been dragged through the
3:05:23coals is that how the saying goes
3:05:25you've been yeah yeah and you know sorry
3:05:28I just I feel like I can be riskier
3:05:31because I've already risked a lot and
3:05:36basically I have nothing to lose by
3:05:38doing this I don't think I have anything
3:05:39to lose and and I do think it will help
3:05:42people so so I'm gonna release a we'll
3:05:44see where it goes but I don't know how
3:05:46long I will take to finish and and then
3:05:48once you know that's that then we'll
3:05:53move on my husband and I will we're
3:05:55gonna wait a little while to start
3:05:56trying again because it takes a while to
3:05:58regulate your body and and then we'll
3:06:02see but I think I have some more films
3:06:04and maybe on this so I don't think it
3:06:06stands for me yeah Wow
3:06:08well I mean thank you for for sharing
3:06:11that and I mean I think that that's such
3:06:16a such a brave thing of you to turn this
3:06:19into an actual film because that's it's
3:06:25so vulnerable it's so painful and it's
3:06:27something that so many women are going
3:06:31through I mean I know that personally I
3:06:33mean you know fortunately not me but
3:06:35like a lot of my friends are going
3:06:39through or have dealt with miscarriages
3:06:42in the last couple years you know I
3:06:43think we're all about the same age and
3:06:44or our dealing with it right now like
3:06:47more the more than I wish would happen I
3:06:49mean I wish none of them were happening
3:06:50but I think something like this is
3:06:53really really relevant for our
3:06:56generation of women
3:06:58and yeah anyway any woman going through
3:06:59a miscarriage so so I think I think
3:07:03that's really great and to turn
3:07:07something like soap or something so
3:07:08personal and painful into something that
3:07:11I think can help a lot of women I think
3:07:13like thank you thank you I can't imagine
3:07:16how hard that must be I do agree with
3:07:20you that I think it'll be sadly become
3:07:22more and more relevant because there
3:07:26there is a rise in infertility and women
3:07:29are waiting later and later to have
3:07:31children which I I actually think is a
3:07:33great thing because well I'm not gonna
3:07:35say black and white like that because I
3:07:37think I don't know there's a room for
3:07:40everyone but um but for me personally
3:07:44having what I do actually view as a
3:07:49successful career and documentary
3:07:51filmmaking which is a really hard space
3:07:53to be successful in I it's given me so
3:07:59much confidence to have to have so many
3:08:02supporters and and people who appreciate
3:08:04the work that I've made and to also be
3:08:07very proud of the work that I've done
3:08:09and and so I think you know women who
3:08:11want to have a career before having a
3:08:13family absolutely I was rereading The
3:08:19Feminine Mystique a couple weeks ago
3:08:21Betty Ford Ann which was really the book
3:08:23that you know kind of launched second
3:08:24wave feminism and you know I think
3:08:28there's a lot of there's a lot of truth
3:08:30in in that book about how women did feel
3:08:34trapped in their home where they were
3:08:37given this bill of goods that if you
3:08:39have a family and you get married to a
3:08:40good guy and and have all the amenities
3:08:43and everything you could want you will
3:08:45be happy and you'll be you know that
3:08:46have the best life and then all these
3:08:48women found themselves with everything
3:08:50that they were told would give them
3:08:52happiness and it didn't and you know who
3:08:55knows how much of that era was from
3:09:01things like postpartum depression or you
3:09:04know underlying issues that that we just
3:09:08didn't really understand that well yet
3:09:10or know
3:09:11kind of how big the scope was and but
3:09:15you know women did feel trapped in in
3:09:19their home and with their family and
3:09:20didn't feel fulfilled and so then they
3:09:22were you know wanting to look outward
3:09:24and see well guys are you know working
3:09:26they have careers and they have respect
3:09:27and they have awards and they have you
3:09:29know people giving them Lifetime
3:09:31Achievement Awards and why can't I be
3:09:33that kind of person and so you know that
3:09:36did really get second wave feminism
3:09:38going and wanting to combat stereotypes
3:09:41in the workforce and open opportunities
3:09:44you know the glass ceilings are sort of
3:09:46thing and so now we have you know we
3:09:49have all these options and now we're
3:09:51kind of you know option paralysis right
3:09:52with we don't know which way to go and
3:09:54then if we end up somewhere we aren't
3:09:56happy then we're wondering well which
3:09:58path did we take was the wrong way but
3:10:02you know for me I think having a like if
3:10:06I did end my career right now I am
3:10:08really proud of it and that that is I
3:10:12think giving me the motivation to start
3:10:14a family but what we have now that women
3:10:18didn't have during The Feminine Mystique
3:10:20is basically the world at your
3:10:23fingertips at home and you can be an
3:10:26entrepreneur and CEO and never leave
3:10:29your house and and make a good living so
3:10:34you know I think everything's in flux
3:10:37right now and definitely for women I
3:10:40think guys are starting to see things
3:10:43shifting as well now but I don't know
3:10:49where it's going but well that's why I
3:10:53think I think you know if you're gonna
3:10:55make this into a movie I think that
3:10:57that's so relevant because not just not
3:11:01just so you know other women who are
3:11:03dealing with miscarriages can can have
3:11:05someone to relate to with that but also
3:11:08in the bigger conversation of women are
3:11:11having children later now and that means
3:11:14there's gonna be more complications it's
3:11:17gonna be harder for more of us and that
3:11:20makes that that's hard because like you
3:11:22just said like we're at a point in time
3:11:23where
3:11:24we have more freedom than any women ever
3:11:26in the history of humankind ever which
3:11:29is such a blessing for us but also now
3:11:35we have this situation where we're like
3:11:37okay but what how do we juggle that with
3:11:41this other part of us that so many of us
3:11:43still want families right that's very
3:11:45hard and and you know this can't ever be
3:11:50said enough but the idea of women having
3:11:53it all has been a horrible lie that you
3:11:57know leads women to that you know
3:12:00bewilderment of where to go how can i I
3:12:04can't do it all and but I want it all
3:12:06and I'm told they should have it all and
3:12:07you're trying to do it all and you're
3:12:09frustrated that you're yeah you're not
3:12:10having it all and and I think what we
3:12:13really need to like young women know is
3:12:16whatever life you choose it will involve
3:12:20sacrifices you know for me being CEO of
3:12:23jaber productions and running this you
3:12:25know this this film that really I think
3:12:28people thought was some multi-million
3:12:30dollar production with all these
3:12:31screenings taking place everywhere and
3:12:33people talking about no we we were just
3:12:35a couple people and you know we're
3:12:39trying to do it all and and it it was
3:12:41very taxing on my body and on my health
3:12:45and just stress and you know lack of
3:12:49sleep and then and then oversleep from
3:12:51depression of not being happy with where
3:12:53things are going and and it never seeing
3:12:55sunlight because you're stuck editing
3:12:57and so you know I definitely the red
3:13:01pill was you know now I guess six years
3:13:04of of sacrifice and of course you know
3:13:09while I was going through the
3:13:10miscarriage you can't help but wonder
3:13:12you're like well you know I started the
3:13:13red pill when I was 27 that's the
3:13:15average age of a woman's first pregnancy
3:13:18in the u.s. it's like think it's 26 to
3:13:2229 is around that time and you know so I
3:13:26could as IgG doors AG deny zagged and
3:13:29but we'll see where it goes and if I end
3:13:33up never being able to do it naturally
3:13:34then we'll go from there and
3:13:37at least I have found a career that is
3:13:39fulfilling so yeah yeah I mean well I
3:13:47mean again they thank you for that I
3:13:50think hopefully like the red pill it's
3:13:54gonna open up the conversation yeah
3:13:57that's that's really hard to have so I
3:14:03think that's really great thank you
3:14:06yeah and you know I I'm sure some people
3:14:10will be label how how does this relate
3:14:11to gender politics it doesn't have to
3:14:13you know having a miscarriage it's it's
3:14:17just something you know so much is
3:14:20blamed on the patriarchy um I don't
3:14:23think this can be one of them and and
3:14:25also while there you know actually a lot
3:14:28of things can be tucked around but um I
3:14:31might you know there I actually think a
3:14:33lot of gender issues rather than blaming
3:14:36on the patriarchy could be blamed on
3:14:38mother nature there's just there's
3:14:41things about our biology that are very
3:14:43different and we go through different
3:14:44things and you know I when I was in the
3:14:46process of miscarrying I I thought like
3:14:49I I cannot heavy-lift anything so when
3:14:52you know you're on a plane and someone
3:14:54takes your luggage down from the
3:14:55overhead bin and they're a man and
3:14:57you're a woman I'm really grateful for
3:14:58that because you don't know if that
3:14:59person is pregnant or what they're going
3:15:00through um you know i god there was a
3:15:04point when I was in a grocery store and
3:15:06I just bought got a contraction and
3:15:09because you're like contracting and
3:15:10dilating during a pregnant during the
3:15:12miscarriage and I just like balled over
3:15:15and dropped the tongues and the Brussels
3:15:16sprouts and mom and it's so you know you
3:15:20just don't know what people are going
3:15:21through and and I think there are a lot
3:15:23of women who are going through whether
3:15:25it be okay that symbolize PMS or your
3:15:29menstrual cycle but then there's you
3:15:31know menopause and and then there's
3:15:33miscarriages and and there's I mean
3:15:35there's even things like still birth you
3:15:37know oh my god earning about still vert
3:15:39still birth is one of the most oh I
3:15:42can't even imagine I could imagine so I
3:15:46think we just all have to be really
3:15:48understanding of each other and I think
3:15:49right now
3:15:51women's reproductive health is so
3:15:54because if we want to relate it to
3:15:55gender politics it's so the thing that's
3:15:59really getting all the attention is
3:16:01abortion rights mhm
3:16:02there's not necessarily any rights to
3:16:04fight for in regards to miscarriage but
3:16:06I think there is definitely a
3:16:07conversation so yeah and it'll be good
3:16:12to see it coming from like a career
3:16:14oriented woman hmm because there's
3:16:17there's a lot of us out there that don't
3:16:19totally know how to navigate this space
3:16:21so so I I think that's really that's
3:16:26that's really great I mean it's you know
3:16:29trying to make light of an otherwise
3:16:30really tragic situation so you know good
3:16:33for you yeah well is there anything else
3:16:37that that you'd like to get out there
3:16:39about you know I mean really anything
3:16:41that your red pill journey or what you
3:16:43have coming out just just anything that
3:16:45you think people should know um god
3:16:51mm-hmm I was gonna start trying to try
3:16:55to dispel all the myths about the film
3:16:58and I feel like I'm being my head
3:16:59against the wall with all that and you
3:17:01know if people have heard anything about
3:17:03the film that makes them not want to
3:17:04watch it good or website at the red pill
3:17:07movie calm there's a dispelling myths
3:17:09section you don't have to be afraid of
3:17:11what the the trolls out there online are
3:17:13trying to take down the film about with
3:17:16with lies but it's yeah I just I I hope
3:17:22the conversation keeps going about men's
3:17:24issues and I think there's I think we
3:17:28just need to broaden the scope you know
3:17:29and be more inclusive of all people and
3:17:32stop stop excusing hating on certain
3:17:37groups by either calling them the
3:17:39privileged or the the oppressors and and
3:17:42be willing to look at victims regardless
3:17:47of their demographic and and look at the
3:17:51problems that we see in a more nuanced
3:17:53way and all the factors contributing to
3:17:55that so yeah I hope I hope we can just
3:18:00have more exploration of millions
3:18:03yeah absolutely there you go there you
3:18:06go that's right well thank you so much
3:18:09for coming on amazing conversation I
3:18:14mean I don't even think we covered
3:18:16everything that could have been covered
3:18:18to be honest but it's like a lot of the
3:18:21conversations we have here this is a
3:18:23really difficult one to have so so thank
3:18:26you for coming on and going through all
3:18:29of that and and also for for telling us
3:18:32about what you have coming up like we'll
3:18:34definitely stay tuned you'll have to
3:18:35come back on to talk about that when
3:18:37it's up and running and you know
3:18:38whatever we can do to help sounds good
3:18:40thank you so much for having me on and I
3:18:42love what you guys are doing and yeah I
3:18:45I really appreciate this type of forum
3:18:48to talk at length without you know
3:18:51creative editing because you know these
3:18:56things are nuanced and they do take a
3:18:58lot of breath and air time to to get
3:19:00everything out and realize it's not
3:19:02black and white and and by saying
3:19:03something doesn't mean so you're saying
3:19:05something horrible so yeah thank you for
3:19:09giving a platform to to new ideas and
3:19:14new conversations we're trying well
3:19:17thank you so much we will we'll see you
3:19:19soon I hope yeah that'd be great hey
3:19:22everyone thanks so much for watching the
3:19:24episode if you're interested in
3:19:26contributing to the conversation and
3:19:28supporting the show there's two easy
3:19:30things you can do one click subscribe
3:19:32and to visit our patreon page where you
3:19:34get exclusive access to the exploring
3:19:36Minds community

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