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Caso Luisa González, crisis carcelaria y resultados de los operativos | John Reimberg — Transcript

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0:00Welcome, Minister John Reimber. Good
0:02morning.
0:02>> Thank you very much. Good morning.
0:04>> Uh, tell us a little bit. First of all,
0:06>> you have a full house today, from what
0:07I see. Except for Juan Javier, who is
0:10on a mission outside of Guayaquil, he
0:11will be back on Monday, but welcome to
0:13this program and above all we want to
0:15know your first impressions of what
0:17happened yesterday, precisely with this
0:19political activist Luisa González.
0:21Well, I think, let's see, it shouldn't
0:24be anything new. We have said it,
0:26justice arrives and it will arrive, it
0:28is a matter of time. I have always said
0:31it, today she is detained and
0:33coincidentally after what I was hearing
0:35from you, they detain her, and my
0:37prisons start acting up. What a
0:40coincidence life is, bro.
0:41>> There is a connection. I mean, their
0:44process, this extinct Citizen
0:45Revolution group, is always that when
0:48something happens they want to stir up
0:50my prisons, which is where they have,
0:53well apparently, the friends and
0:55acquaintances they try to stir up for
0:57me; and that is what they tried to do
0:59yesterday. However, there is a clear
1:03investigation, there is mishandling of
1:05funds or money laundering of more than
1:07$ 500,000, if I'm not mistaken. There
1:11are national companies, there are
1:13Venezuelan companies, there are natural
1:15persons, there is a very well-made case
1:17by the prosecutor's office, which she
1:19will have to defend herself against,
1:20just like the rest of the people who
1:22have fallen in the different operations
1:24. What are they going to tell me? That
1:26she is a candidate. She is not a
1:28candidate, she was not a candidate.
1:29From what I understand, she. What can
1:32you tell me? Here is where the usual
1:34narrative will come out. We will see
1:37later what, uh, this fugitive said
1:41these days, right? It may be that there
1:44were some bad funds that should not
1:46have entered, but Luisa is not the one
1:48responsible. So we already start to
1:50assume that there may have been bad
1:51funds. And what will happen in two days
1:53? He will tell her that she is a
1:55traitor. I imagine, that is what he
1:58normally always tells her or, uh, he
1:59doesn't know her. Minister, very good
2:03morning, welcome here to Punto de Orden
2:05/Centro Debate. Uh, a question about
2:08the subject of the prison riot, because
2:10you start by talking about the prison
2:13riot, how do weapons enter the prison
2:15riot and what is that sensitivity or
2:17that possibility that groups have to
2:20alter that order in the prison as a
2:22product of a political crisis. Look, I
2:25have been extremely clear in telling
2:27you that the prisons are 100%taken care
2:29of and that things are simple. I have
2:32never said that. I have said that they
2:35are destroyed and obviously, every time
2:37we go in to carry out a control
2:40operation, we find weapons or various
2:42tools that these people have when we
2:45dig in different places. That is why we
2:48are building a new prison. That is why
2:50we know that this is already obsolete;
2:51it doesn't serve its purpose, it
2:53doesn't work, and it's not about
2:54putting in 500 or 1,000 or 5,000 more
2:56people, right? Control becomes a
2:58complex issue precisely because of the
3:00destruction of these penitentiary
3:02centers, and obviously, things happen,
3:05like someone managing to bring in a
3:07weapon. Obviously, we have found those
3:10responsible; those responsible should
3:11be arriving at the 'Cárcel del
3:13Encuentro' today, because we have been
3:15clear: whoever is guilty of riots or
3:16any problem in a penitentiary center
3:18will go to the 'Cárcel del Encuentro,'
3:20and that is what we are doing now. When
3:23will we have total control? When will
3:26this be resolved? It will be at the
3:29moment that I cut or the President cuts
3:31the ribbon to inaugurate the new prison
3:33, which will be in about 15 or 16
3:35months because it is advancing
3:37extremely quickly, where I can transfer
3:39all these detained people to this new
3:41penitentiary center with the same
3:43controls and security as the 'Cárcel
3:46del Encuentro.' Regarding the
3:48positioning of the narrative to give
3:50way to the panel. Uh, Gabriela
3:51Rivadeneira states in a press
3:53conference, she speaks of the
3:55kidnapping of Luisa González. And I
3:58would like you to explain to the
4:00audience what the immense difference is
4:01between kidnapping someone or
4:03apprehending someone who, let's say,
4:05has a responsibility to the judicial
4:06system that is looking for them to
4:08press charges.
4:10>> The thing is, the poor woman is lost,
4:12and she has shown it every time she
4:14opens her mouth. Here we have a justice
4:17system they don't like because they
4:18don't control it; instead, it is
4:20autonomous and manages its own
4:21investigations. And being that way, it
4:24has conducted investigations on
4:26everyone, not just from any party, but
4:28even within the government itself,
4:30where we have sent people who have been
4:32doing things wrong to prison. Today,
4:35for example, early in the morning, a
4:37Ministry of Public Health hospital in
4:39Ambato was raided, precisely for
4:41investigative purposes against the
4:42hospital manager, the medical director,
4:45among other people, right? By, uh,
4:47conclusion, if I am not mistaken. The
4:49justice system does this in
4:51coordination with the police, of course
4:53, because they are the ones who carry
4:55out the investigations, but this must
4:57continue. The thing is, they haven't
4:59been used to having them or other
5:01politicians answer to the justice
5:03system for what they've done. That
5:05hasn't happened before, because they
5:07believed being a politician was a blank
5:10check to do whatever they wanted and
5:12take whatever they wanted. And that is
5:14what is not happening now.
5:16>> Carlos,
5:17>> how long have you been in office,
5:18Minister? Good morning, welcome.
5:20>> One year, 9 months,
5:21>> right? In the ministry, in the program.
5:23You can stay here.
5:24>> Ah, I have 5 minutes here.
5:27>> For me. To stay, huh?
5:29>> The topic is crucial today; it's not
5:30like I have a set time to leave and
5:32then I just get up,
5:33>> I'm not going to
5:34>> Yes. And besides, there are four of us
5:36here to ask and to talk.
5:37>> Yes, yes, that
5:38>> no, no, really
5:39>> I'll tell you, I won't tell you exactly
5:40, but go ahead and launch your first
5:42>> based on that I'll manage my time. Sure
5:43.
5:43>> I have to be somewhere else at 9:20.
5:45>> Okay. You have almost every morning, no
5:47problem.
5:47>> We will do the interview after 8:50 in
5:49the morning.
5:51>> Okay, Pocho, thanks.
5:52>> We have 45 minutes. Very kind. Soccer
5:55time.
5:55>> Based on that,
5:57>> they should have warned that Carlos was
5:58going to be here prepared today. No, no
6:00, I don't measure myself. No, it's that
6:02I can't hold up the interview,
6:03>> but there are fundamental issues here
6:05and the first and most criticized has
6:07been the timing. I mean, it's never a
6:09good time to act against the mafia if
6:11they have friends as candidates. If
6:13it's before, it's because you were
6:14going to lose the election. If it's
6:15after, if they lose, it's because they
6:17lost the election. However, that
6:20remains the central element of the
6:22criticism, beyond the procedure, human
6:25rights, all that you want. The raid was
6:28planned for last week and it wasn't
6:31carried out. And I found out why. Two
6:35individuals who had to prepare the
6:37reports on which the prosecutor makes a
6:40decision and the judge makes another,
6:43hadn't presented the evidence they had
6:45in a convincing way, and happily, those
6:48who analyzed the procedure said, "We
6:51have to postpone this because it's
6:53going to be a fiasco." Do you review
6:57the elements that exist when an
7:00intervention of this magnitude is
7:02requested because of who the lady is,
7:05or do you simply proceed based on what
7:08is handed to you?
7:11>> Let's see, uh, several things, Carlos.
7:14The first is about the timing issue,
7:16and that's where for me, I don't do
7:19things based on timing. Whether we are
7:23close to the election or not, whether
7:24someone is a candidate today or not
7:26tomorrow. Whether they won today or
7:27didn't win tomorrow. Things must be
7:29done based on the fact that when we
7:31have a case ready where the
7:32prosecutor's office says it is prepared
7:34for formal charges, whether today or
7:35three days before the election, we will
7:37act. Right? So, no, if this case
7:40proceeds based on evidence found from
7:42another Aquiles Alvarez case, where the
7:45500,000 in cash supposedly comes from
7:47and is distributed for the campaign,
7:49which is the main thing, why didn't
7:51they process the evidence since then
7:53and only finish doing it now?
7:56>> Carlos, that is something the
7:57prosecutor's office has to carry out.
7:59That is not something we as the police
8:01have to carry out. I mean, what kind of
8:03slow person are you? Or, or why do you
8:05come up with this stuff now? No, no, no
8:06. The information that came out for
8:10previous cases is nearly 190,000 pages.
8:14I haven't read the 190,000 pages to
8:16know
8:17>> and the prosecutor surely hasn't either
8:18.
8:18>> That, that is a case they must handle
8:19themselves.
8:20>> I mean, this has to do with the time it
8:22took for the process to take shape.
8:23>> It's 190,000 pages. And what do I want
8:26to tell you with this? I'm anticipating
8:27something, it may be that more
8:29information comes out, information
8:31might come out tomorrow from those
8:33190,000 pages about someone else,
8:35another person who is linked.
8:36>> It seems phenomenal to me that you say,
8:38"I don't calculate the political timing
8:39based on whether there are elections or
8:41not, but rather when I have sufficient
8:43evidence." Did you tell the president,
8:44"I am going to do this"? "I am
8:46informing you." Uh, no, the president,
8:49when we don't, I mean, or in my role as
8:51minister, I don't have to go and say, "
8:53Just so you know, Mr. President,
8:55tomorrow I'm going to go get so-and-so.
8:58" The president, and something I've
9:01told you in interviews, is that we have
9:03an open invitation to carry out the
9:05necessary operations with the solid
9:07cases we have, and let the chips fall
9:09where they may.
9:10>> That clarifies the fundamental part for
9:12me of what I wanted to find out today;
9:13it's not the only thing, I have to
9:15share the panel, which is the timing,
9:16the opportunity of the moment.
9:18>> Uh, Andres Ortiz,
9:19>> Minister, how are you? Very good
9:21morning. Uh, a bit to return to what
9:23was discussed, right? There is always
9:26speculation that when the detention of
9:28a person linked to politics is involved
9:30, it can add votes or subtract votes. I
9:33know that justice does not look at that
9:35. Criminality does not heed factual
9:40circumstances of convenience or
9:42inconvenience either, but in the end,
9:44the common citizen always takes sides
9:47—that is, they take sides, meaning
9:50for or against, victimization or
9:52sanction for the corrupt. Those
9:56variables which, in principle—I
9:58repeat, I am a lawyer—should not
9:59enter the equation, unfortunately, on
10:01the eve of an election, regain
10:02importance; they have importance. How
10:04does the government measure this when
10:06faced with a situation of this nature?
10:08>> Andrés, imagine if I had to make
10:10decisions based on whether it will gain
10:13me votes or cost me votes. I mean,
10:16today I’m not going to act against
10:18someone because it might cost the group
10:20a few little votes, or I’m going to
10:21act because it gains me five more
10:23little votes. Ecuadorians do not want
10:26that from us. Ecuadorians want us to do
10:28the job we are here for today, without
10:30thinking about whether I gain or lose
10:32votes. I have a commitment to and
10:35follow the president's line in this
10:37fight against organized crime and
10:39corruption, whether in the executive,
10:42the legislative, or any branch, because
10:44that is the mission for which
10:46Ecuadorians will judge us based on the
10:48results we achieve. But what I can tell
10:51you, an action like yesterday's—
10:53whether it gained me votes or cost me
10:55votes, I don't know. And not just for
10:57me, but obviously for our candidates,
10:59the party, etc., but it was the right
11:01thing to do at the moment when the
11:03branch of the state, I mean the
11:05prosecutor's office, tells you, "The
11:07case is ready to move forward." Nobody
11:10is going to say, "No, no, wait until
11:12January. Let's go in January because it
11:14might disrupt something. Let's execute.
11:17" And perhaps it won't be the only one,
11:21perhaps more will come, but it will be
11:23when justice is ready to bring charges
11:25in one case or another, when they are
11:27simply raids for the purpose of
11:29gathering information, which also
11:31happens, right? We will do it the
11:34moment it is ready. I mean, I think
11:36that is the right thing to do, right?
11:39Thinking about whether I win or lose
11:41with work that I know, at the end of
11:43the day, will benefit Ecuadorians and
11:44will send a very clear message to the
11:46entire current political class, and the
11:48one that came before, and the one from
11:50yesterday, that these things will not
11:52go unpunished and that they won't just
11:54do whatever they please at the expense
11:56of the Ecuadorian people. Fernando
11:59Aguayo,
12:00>> uh, it is not required that we live in
12:03an ideal country in Ecuador, there are
12:06simply commitments within society.
12:09Respecting norms and the law is
12:11fundamental. So, when a topic appears
12:15that could be labeled as politically
12:18appropriate or correct at the moment, I
12:20believe that should be set aside
12:22because it is a strictly judicial
12:24matter, and in the order of
12:26investigations and proceedings, justice
12:29must act. It does not matter if we are
12:34prior to an election or not, and even
12:36more so the candidates, those who for a
12:38long time have been pointed out as
12:40people who used inappropriate resources
12:43, who used them poorly, who thought
12:45they could do whatever they wanted. No,
12:49gentlemen, from the beginning they
12:51should have acted with honesty, with
12:53morality, if they want to be presidents
12:55of the Republic, the first citizen of a
12:56country. I just want to bring up a
13:00memory. Óscar Iván Zuluaga, a
13:03brilliant Colombian politician who had
13:06the opportunity to be president of the
13:09Republic after President Álvaro Uribe,
13:12was the natural candidate when Iván
13:14Duque was later the candidate. And
13:18there were simply some allegations of
13:20misuse, it was said, of campaign
13:22resources, and the man did not wait to
13:25be accused. He resigned knowing he had
13:27the opportunity to be president. Iván
13:30Duque was. So, why don't we act as we
13:33should in Ecuador and right now place
13:35ourselves on this level? No, just
13:39because they might win the elections,
13:41because they have more supporters or
13:43fewer supporters. Here in Ecuador,
13:46justice must be served and all those
13:48who acted wrongly must pay for their
13:50faults. It simply must be that way,
13:52Minister. that is precisely answering
13:55and with the questions I was telling
13:57you, that is what Ecuador has not been
13:59accustomed to because these politicians
14:01, almost-politicians, or those who
14:02dreamed of being politicians have
14:04accustomed them to not coming to serve
14:06but to serve themselves and they come
14:08looking. Because I am going to tell you
14:11something that I am thinking about
14:12right now while you were speaking.
14:14Let's see, uh, for example, what Luisa
14:16González does for a living. But you
14:20can see it, I think every month she's
14:22seen in Europe, and as far as I know,
14:24Europe is not a cheap country to go to,
14:27especially in first class. So, what is
14:30this and how is it financed? Where does
14:32it come from? So, look how they come
14:35out immediately, right? The fugitive,
14:38as I said at the beginning, it can't be
14:40that there were funds that haven't been
14:42clarified, but it mustn't be her. So
14:46when you hear that, it's: "Yes, we are
14:48guilty, but don't take Luisa." So,
14:51exactly. So, what's important here, and
14:54in every case as we say back home,
14:58>> Come out, and instead of saying it's
15:00political, or whatever, prove that what
15:03we know isn't true; because it's
15:05structured and it's in chats, because I
15:07saw in chats today where they talk
15:10about money transfers, who, how, where,
15:12the participation of Venezuela, the
15:15participation of Venezuelans, a group
15:17of Colombians, a more or less
15:19significant structure. So, focus, right
15:23? With...with...with the person who I
15:25believe is her lawyer right now,
15:27because I saw him enter the Modelo
15:28prison yesterday on the security camera
15:29footage, Alexis Mera.
15:31>> Great sign,
15:32>> right? This
15:34>> guy who told some people to fake
15:36evidence so they could win a lawsuit
15:38against Chevron.
15:39>> The thing is, they have to resort to
15:41these types of things; it should be
15:43clear, and by the way, I stand in
15:45solidarity with what happened to your
15:47team. It's not going to be reviewed,
15:48it's going to be investigated. I'm
15:50requesting images, Minister. Of course,
15:52we are not going to allow the five or
15:54six people who went to the Modelo
15:56prison yesterday with a piece of paper
15:58to try to support them to cause these
16:00kinds of problems. And just forgive me,
16:04I want to clarify when I referred to
16:06Mr. Óscar Iván Zuluaga, this
16:08gentleman, a great candidate, he with
16:10the demeanor of a true gentleman who
16:12aspired to the presidency, he withdrew
16:14from the campaign and said, "I submit
16:16myself to the investigations." He
16:20submitted to the investigations and
16:21came out absolutely clean. And that man
16:24acted as a responsible man should act.
16:27These others, on the other hand, what
16:28do they say? They proclaim themselves
16:30candidates to have immunity.
16:32>> Minister, yesterday morning we found
16:34out very early about this operation.
16:36The photos came out. In fact, we were
16:39here on the "Punto de Orden" program
16:40when the photos came out, and other
16:42media outlets also published them. For
16:45many hours, it was not known exactly
16:47where Luisa González was being taken.
16:49Initially, it was said that she was
16:51going to Quito for the formulation of
16:52charges. uh for hours she was in that
16:55limbo, and sometimes those information
16:58voids give way to all kinds of
16:59political narrative positioning. What
17:02happened? Why did she end up in
17:04Guayaquil? And why was it unclear what
17:06was going to happen to her, especially
17:08in such a high-profile operation? I’m
17:11going to tell you something that just
17:12occurred to me regarding your point.
17:14Among the things being reviewed there,
17:16which prison? In the event that charges
17:19are filed and preventive detention is
17:21ordered, one of the prisons that had
17:23been mentioned was Cotopaxi.
17:25Coincidentally, where the riot mess
17:27happened. Look at the coincidences and
17:30life, right? What happened with her?
17:32The moment she is detained, you know
17:34there is a process. There is the
17:35reading of charges, et cetera, et
17:36cetera. After that, she has to go to a
17:38medical center. At the medical center,
17:39she has to undergo an evaluation, which
17:41she refused. She started making excuses
17:43, started refusing, started saying she
17:44didn't want a blood sample taken. She
17:47didn't want a blood sample taken; it
17:48wasn't taken, by the way. They didn't
17:50want, uh, a pregnancy test, no. To
17:52everything she started to...
17:55>> But that was her right, wasn't it? Sure
17:58, what was done was to document it so
18:00she can't say something was missing, or
18:01that they didn't want to, or whatever,
18:03but that took time.
18:05>> And after that, the transfer, as is
18:07natural. Why do I say as is natural?
18:10You must know, we conduct operations in
18:12some city or province and transfer [
18:15them] to where the case is. Normally,
18:19in this case, we brought her here to
18:21Guayaquil so that via Guayaquil she
18:22could connect to the hearing, which is
18:24what has happened in the hearing.
18:28>> She is in, I don't know if it's over
18:29yet, but until a while ago she was in a
18:31hearing that began in the early morning
18:33hours, because there are several people
18:35involved in the case, and after that,
18:37depending on the result, if it's
18:38provisional detention, she will be
18:40transferred to a center of...But that
18:42was the time it took; which center is
18:43still unknown. Because if I say one
18:46right now, there’s a riot right away,
18:48well, they call each other and...
18:49>> it. Thanks, Pocho. I’ll continue with
18:51specifics. The operation yesterday was
18:53against six people. Why were only three
18:54arrested?
18:55>> Uh, because the other people are being
19:00located. Because there is one who is
19:01out of the country. Uh,
19:03>> do you know which one is out of the
19:03country? Yes, of course. I know he is
19:05out of the country. The process is
19:07currently being
19:09>> done to request him once he is located.
19:12Well no, no
19:13>> it cannot be said who is out of the
19:15country.
19:15>> The one who is out of the country is
19:16Araus.
19:18>> And the other two that they couldn't
19:19catch
19:20>> are are in process. There was a person
19:21who turned herself in, for example.
19:22>> Do you think they are in the country?
19:24>> Yes.
19:24>> The one who turned herself in is who
19:25>> is No, I don't have the name. It's
19:28Wendy, the poor thing's name escapes me
19:30>> secretary of Reto.
19:31>> Secretary of Reto
19:32>> who also had involvement in the scheme.
19:34The other thing
19:35>> is that surely they are going to attack
19:36her for having turned herself in,
19:38wanting to claim that turning herself
19:39in is cooperating.
19:40>> So they will surely come out to
19:41>> I believe that if she turns herself in,
19:42it will be for that reason. That is to
19:43say, I was functional here, I was not a
19:45beneficiary. Maybe this is not the only
19:49one, maybe there are more; you have
19:52said it twice, are you warning others
19:54or alerting those who do know they have
19:57links to hide evidence?
20:00>> Carlos, what an excellent question.
20:01>> I mean, he didn't know whether to get
20:04on the plane or not. He was in that
20:07state of shaking legs, not knowing
20:08whether to stay there or head to the
20:10Quito municipality.
20:11>> For everything, because he already saw
20:12what was happening. So
20:15>> he, and we know this, didn't know
20:17whether to get on the plane, he called
20:19the municipality once he made the
20:20decision, take the people there to
20:22welcome me and see if that way they can
20:24protect me if I am supposedly going
20:26back.
20:27>> Right. So yesterday, I don't know, a
20:29bunch of people went there to the
20:31airport wanting to welcome him
20:32precisely out of fear. And why is there
20:34fear? He has dirt on him,
20:37>> but not in the case of the municipal
20:39raid, three of his officials that he
20:41has allowed in the case, but the 65
20:42million from the Quito municipality,
20:44the issue of tithes
20:47>> does not exempt him from responsibility
20:49as mayor of the city. Let's go back to
20:50the case.
20:51>> But then as an audience, can we expect
20:53there to be that type of operation
20:55against, I mean, towards Pavel Muñoz?
20:56But look, it has been shown that
20:59impunity is over,
21:01>> meaning, if he is guilty,
21:04>> If there are investigations, and there
21:06should be, I imagine, by the justice
21:08system, and if his participation and
21:10that of others is proven—remember
21:12that there was already a raid on
21:13municipal facilities to collect
21:15information, which indicates that an
21:17investigation is underway—and we know
21:19what he has done, without forgetting, I
21:21don't remember if it was 20-something
21:22million dollars for a bicycle. All the
21:26things we have heard,
21:27>> the $ 15 sandwiches.
21:29>> So, obviously, this makes the gentleman
21:31travel every now and then, which was
21:33the same, the same way Arauz does or
21:35did, for example, because of the terror
21:38they feel, because they know what they
21:40have done and know that at any moment
21:42their door will be kicked down, and
21:44they will be caught; I hope they are in
21:47their pajamas, right? And they arrive
21:49and bring them before justice.
21:51>> Let's hold off on that for a moment for
21:52an additional clarification. He wasn't
21:54growing in the polls, but despite that,
21:56he was first in Quito with 21 to 22
21:58percent. The perception in Quito is
22:01that with these interventions in the
22:04municipality, the raids for these cases
22:06, you end up catapulting him to win.
22:10>> Uh, Carlos, we return again to the
22:12point you keep questioning me about. So
22:14, because I calculate votes, I do
22:15nothing.
22:16>> There is a Ms. Molina, mother of the
22:18girl raped by Santiago Díaz Asquez,
22:20who is among those with an arrest
22:22warrant. A lady who, by the way, took 7
22:25months to acknowledge or report the
22:27rape of her daughter, and the one who
22:29reported it was her father. What link
22:31does this lady have with all this
22:33matter,
22:33>> Carlos? The depth of the investigation
22:36is obviously known to the prosecutor's
22:38office; I don't have it all at hand. Uh
22:41, I know what has been communicated,
22:43but beyond that,
22:44>> the president said that the links to
22:46this issue reach Petrov. He said it
22:48yesterday,
22:49>> and it has had a huge repercussion in
22:51Colombia. What was he referring to?
22:53Astonishing.
22:54>> What would it be referring to?
22:56>> Colombia and Venezuela have always been
22:58together with the fugitive Correa
23:00behind the problems that were happening
23:02in Ecuador, behind generating chaos,
23:04financing campaigns, just like we
23:06caught Valdor Bermedo, let's not forget
23:08, who was also the financier of the
23:10Citizen Revolution campaigns. Where
23:13does all this money come from? From all
23:14these irregular people. But we must
23:17remember Raúl Reyes in his computers
23:18and Mono Jojoy, who point out that they
23:20delivered money for the campaign in
23:22Ecuador.
23:23>> Right. And the other thing, the person
23:25reporting on the case extensively this
23:27morning is José Julio Neira. 24 hours
23:29after, as María Sol noted, they let
23:31the narrative get away from them.
23:33Unfortunately, in many things, whoever
23:35wins the narrative wins the case, but
23:37not always. What this does is show that
23:40the UAFE was, of course, if there is
23:43money laundering there, one of the
23:45entities that provided information, and
23:47another was an investigation carried
23:49out by the police. So the delay in
23:52solidifying that evidence from the
23:55190,000 pages of the case file lies
23:57with two Executive institutions.
24:00>> Forgive me, but the one conducting the
24:02investigation is the Prosecutor's
24:03Office, with the support of the
24:05institutions you just mentioned. So,
24:08yes, there is information extracted
24:10from phones when you carry out an
24:12operation that yields thousands of
24:15pages of data, which you then have to
24:17have analysts review to determine if
24:19there was any illegal activity
24:21committed, in order to hand it over to
24:24the Prosecutor's Office so they can
24:26open a case, if applicable, or join the
24:28ongoing investigation to determine
24:31responsibilities. It sounds easy. I
24:34would love for cases to be handled
24:36overnight, but it doesn't work that way
24:38. Especially since—and I’ve told
24:41you this—when you build a case, the
24:43case has to be a blow, and that blow
24:45has to be a knockout. It means they
24:49can't get back up, that we won't see
24:51the return of whoever it may be, the
24:53criminal or the person involved, being
24:55able to return to the streets to keep
24:56doing what they've been doing to affect
24:58Ecuador. So, that's why, obviously, I
25:02understand when they ask me, "Is the
25:04timing right?" I don't work based on
25:06timing. Ecuadorians don't want me to
25:08act based on timing. Ecuadorians want
25:10me to act based on cleaning up the
25:12country from what has done it so much
25:15harm. Criminal groups, corruption, and
25:17everything else that has been affecting
25:19us. That is what Ecuador wants, Carlos,
25:21and that is what we have to give them.
25:23I cannot go and tell a prosecutor, "
25:25This case doesn't suit me right now,"
25:27or a judge, "No, not now, let's do the
25:29case after the elections." No, no,
25:32it’s not like that. I couldn't do it.
25:35I would feel like I'm failing the
25:37country if I take an irresponsible
25:39decision like that.
25:40>> Very well. That is Minister John
25:42Reinberg speaking about yesterday's
25:44political topic of the day, the
25:46detention of Luisa González. We are
25:48going to take a short break and we will
25:50return immediately with other
25:51operations the National Police has
25:52carried out in recent days. We'll be
25:54right back. Well, we return to the
25:57second part of the interview with
25:58Minister Reinber, but first, let's
26:00recall some of the gems that were said
26:02in this first part of the interview.
26:05Minister Reinber said there is a
26:06correlation between the unrest in the
26:08prisons and the arrest of Luisa
26:10González. He also said, "We have
26:12already identified those responsible
26:13for the raids and they are being
26:15transferred to the Encounter Prison. A
26:17new prison with the same
26:18characteristics will be inaugurated
26:20soon." In another one of his statements
26:22, he noted,
26:23>> sorry, a clarification there, we have
26:24already identified those responsible
26:26for the murders, not the raids, for the
26:30riots.
26:30>> That's it, that's it. Thank you.
26:32>> What did I say?
26:34>> Sorry, we have identified those
26:36responsible for the riots, a slip-up.
26:38These people are being transferred,
26:40they are being transferred to the
26:42Encounter Prison. A new prison with the
26:44same characteristics will be
26:45inaugurated soon. He also said, "I
26:48don't do things based on electoral
26:50timing. We operate when the
26:52prosecutor's office is ready to act.
26:53There are 190,000 pages that the
26:55prosecutor's office has processed in
26:57the Luisa González case. I don't
26:59operate thinking about whether five
27:01little votes are won or lost in the
27:02next election." Elsewhere, he noted, "
27:05The president gives us a blank check to
27:07do what we have to do without needing
27:09to inform him beforehand, no matter who
27:11falls." He also said regarding Luisa
27:13González, "What does she do for a
27:14living? She goes to Europe all the time
27:16. The fugitive, that's how he referred
27:19to Rafael Correa, yesterday
27:20acknowledged that there could have been
27:22illicit funds, but that it wasn't Luisa
27:24González. They expose themselves,
27:26concludes the minister. He reports the
27:29hearing began at dawn. If pre-trial
27:31detention is ordered, she will go to a
27:33facility with full security. Andrés
27:36Araus is out of the country, which is
27:37why he could not be arrested. He also
27:40indicated that Colombia and Venezuela
27:42have always been behind the fugitive
27:44financing campaigns, in response to a
27:46question Carlos Vera asked him about
27:48the scope that Petro could have in this
27:49. And finally, a phrase that is surely
27:53one of the main gems. When a case is
27:55made, there has to be a blow, and that
27:58blow has to be a knockout. That was
28:00what you said, Minister.
28:01>> That is correct.
28:01>> Very well. Let's go to the second part.
28:03>> Minister, this morning you published a
28:05tweet, uh, I'll read it quickly, the
28:06headline for the audience to provide
28:08context. Operation Code White, Ambato
28:10Hospital and two homes raided for
28:12corruption. What does this consist of?
28:15What other types of operations are
28:17there regarding corruption in hospitals
28:19and the issue of medication, which is
28:21something we know is a plague that
28:23haunts us in Ecuador? Tell us a little
28:25bit about that.
28:27>> I announced that with the Minister of
28:28Health, we were going to provide all
28:29necessary help precisely to attack the
28:31problems that exist in different places
28:32. We have been working with him
28:35precisely on reviewing, and among those
28:37, the Ambato hospital. A preliminary
28:39investigation was opened to determine
28:41responsibilities, and today a raid was
28:43carried out to gather information from
28:45the medical manager and other people.
28:48In that very raid, we found $ 4,000 in
28:51cash, precisely belonging to one of
28:54them, among other pieces of evidence
28:57that help prepare for charges against
29:00the people who have obviously been
29:03doing things improperly in the public
29:06health system. We did it with the
29:09Ministry of Education, we are doing it
29:10with Health, and we are going to do it
29:12in all institutions, regardless of
29:13whether they are from the executive
29:15branch or whatever branch they may be.
29:17To be able to clean house of all those
29:19who should be serving Ecuadorians.
29:22>> Fernando,
29:23>> Minister, since the issue of health and
29:25medication is so sensitive, is Daniel
29:27Salcedo going to be extradited? He
29:30hasn't sung, he hasn't spoken because
29:32he has to do directly with this issue
29:34of the mafias in the hospitals, because
29:36by now you should already have the
29:38names of those mobsters. I have said in
29:42previous days, the government by now
29:44must already consolidate what should be
29:46the list of criminals who have taken
29:48over the hospitals, which were taken
29:50over in previous administrations. I am
29:53not saying they did it now, but one can
29:55no longer justify that what is
29:57happening in the health sector is the
29:59fault of the mafias. Uh, what are you
30:01going to do in that regard, Mr.
30:03Minister?
30:04>> Fernando? That is precisely what we
30:07started the conversation about today.
30:12We have open investigations, we have
30:13people who are going to fall into those
30:15investigations who have been
30:16responsible for hospital management. No
30:19, I'm not talking inside the house, but
30:21externally. These mafias that have been
30:24contaminating, the one who calls to
30:25threaten you," Don't go and sign that
30:27contract change. "All those people are
30:29within cases that are being carried out
30:31, for which an investigative line must
30:33emerge precisely so that when we catch
30:35them, even if the justice system wants
30:37to cooperate with them, they won't go
30:39free again. I was clear in a video I
30:42made two, three, four weeks ago where I
30:44spoke precisely about the subject and I
30:45said that the moment we have the
30:47investigation, we will catch them, and
30:48I will make it public so people know
30:50who it is. Why? Because people know who
30:53is behind it, but they have kept silent
30:56. But, oh, call it an open secret.
30:59>> And you said, uh, I know that
31:02>> at that moment, at that moment, at that
31:04moment, Fernando, the calls stopped. At
31:07that moment, there was no longer the—
31:09there was no longer the threat that if
31:10you sign that, I will attack you, your
31:12family, I don't know who, I don't know
31:14what. Of course, because since they
31:17don't know if I'm referring to you, to
31:19you, or to you, they all felt alluded
31:20to and held back. That does not mean we
31:22are not going to come down on them and
31:23that we are not going to catch them. Of
31:25course we are going to do it. It is
31:26part of the cleanup we are doing so
31:28they know that the public health system
31:30will not fall back into the hands of
31:32these criminals who were profiting at
31:34the expense of the health of
31:35Ecuadorians. And that is a great job
31:38that the Minister of Health is doing
31:39too, right? Precisely in his tours,
31:41because you see him, he is a person who
31:43is visiting all the hospitals every
31:44week; and that has helped improve the
31:46system, that has helped improve the
31:47issue of medicines. And, obviously, we
31:50are going to keep working, and I, from
31:51my part, will catch all these people
31:53who were used to living at the expense
31:55of the health of Ecuadorians. Minister,
31:58as a citizen we appreciate this
32:00announcement of the curfew with due
32:02advance notice, because the truth is
32:03that they still haven't managed to
32:05organize, the criminals don't get
32:07organized, what I mean is, uh, and it
32:09is important for purposes of all kinds
32:11to know with some advance notice.
32:15However, we had the head of the Joint
32:17Command of the Armed Forces here, I
32:18think two weeks ago, and he explained
32:20the whole dynamic that occurs in this
32:22coordination with you, I mean, police
32:24and armed forces. Beyond the fact that
32:28it is not possible to reveal what is
32:30being sought or what is behind it or
32:32what criminal gangs are going to be
32:34investigated and prosecuted during this
32:36curfew. We, I would like, and I think
32:40the panel is also interested in what
32:42happens during this curfew, why this
32:44legal framework is useful to the
32:46government. What advantages does having
32:50these schedules give you to proceed
32:52with the operations? Let's see, as an
32:57example: the Jalisco New Generation
32:59Cartel, people of another level, people
33:01, criminals of a higher caliber than,
33:02as I was telling you, while others here
33:04, between the Lobos and the Choneros,
33:06are in that ridiculous mindset of
33:08killing each other and attacking one
33:10another, these guys didn't fight anyone
33:12, they didn't kill each other; their
33:13thing was criminal economics, drug
33:15trafficking, generating money,
33:17supplying weaponry, but they continued
33:19their operations, which was what
33:20mattered to them. Dismantling that
33:24structure was not an easy task, nor was
33:26catching them all. We obviously had to
33:29use cooperation with the United States
33:32to locate all those who were part of
33:34this structure, then follow up properly
33:36to be able to operate, and if I hadn't
33:39achieved a curfew that allowed me to
33:41immobilize them so I could reach them,
33:43I wouldn't have been able to dismantle
33:46it alone. In that operation, we had to
33:49enter the Los Ríos province. Look,
33:52places we never imagined we would reach
33:54, which was where they had their drug
33:57storage, for example, and the equipment
34:00of, let's call it, security who guards
34:02this cartel's drug shipment. Right.
34:07>> And and and finally, I will not allow
34:09any cartel from anywhere to exist in
34:11Ecuador, in any way that wants or
34:13intends to operate freely in Ecuador.
34:16We had to do it, and we went all in.
34:18That is why U.S. troops came in and
34:20accompanied us in that operation to be
34:22able to dismantle them. That was one of
34:26the reasons for the previous curfew,
34:27beyond other different operations we
34:29carried out, right? And one that we had
34:32sort of left out was the operation we
34:34carried out against the Border Command,
34:36those responsible for the deaths of our
34:3811 soldiers, our three police officers,
34:40among many other people, which was also
34:42an important blow we struck to be able
34:43to dismantle that. What comes after the
34:47current curfew? Operations just as
34:49important, operations where I need the
34:51peace of mind that I won't have
34:53collateral damage. If I brought in U.S.
34:55troops, believe me, it wasn't for the
34:57photo; I brought them because we were
34:58likely to have an exchange of fire,
35:00>> right? Given the risk of who the people
35:02were that were going to be detained. We
35:05don't seek for that to happen, but it
35:08is what could occur during the
35:10operations we are conducting now
35:13between November 1st and 10th; it is
35:16similar, and our forces have the power
35:18and the order to make legitimate use of
35:21force immediately if their safety is
35:24even slightly threatened for any reason
35:27.
35:28>> From what you have just described, what
35:31will happen and has happened? The blows
35:33against organized crime and delinquency
35:36are endless. The result has been seen
35:40in the reduction of a large number of
35:42indicators, except for extortion, which
35:44by the way is hard to measure, but yes
35:46in kidnappings, violent deaths, yes in
35:48assaults and murders. Right, but
35:51nevertheless, you do not provide, if
35:53you have it or don't do it, a balance
35:55sheet of two fundamental things, Mr.
35:57Minister. Where the hell do the
35:59detainees end up? The figure of
36:01thousands that you detained last year,
36:047,000, already meant that if at least
36:07>> 74,000,
36:07>> How many?
36:08>> 74,000.
36:09>> Oh, no.
36:09>> I mean, I missed a zero.
36:11>> No, well, you didn't detain 74,000
36:12people.
36:13>> In the year 2025, 74,000 were detained.
36:16In the year 2026, we are at 60,460.
36:21Where do those people go? My question
36:23is logical, right? I mean, I missed a
36:26zero. I was going to say, if it were
36:287,000, at least half, that is 3,500 and
36:30something more, should have been in
36:33prisons. First, where do the detainees
36:34end up? And the other thing, where does
36:36the drugs end up? It is vital to have a
36:38report so that it is known, first, the
36:40level of success. Of course, not
36:42everyone who is detained has conclusive
36:44evidence and grounds. And then, uh, the
36:47destination of the drugs. Like, I
36:49already know it gets burned or stored.
36:50Where the hell does that end up?
36:54>> On the issue of the detainees, when the
36:56justice system—I am lucky, because I
36:58don't know what other word to use—
37:00orders preventive detention, they go to
37:02the different, uh, different prisons in
37:04the country.
37:06>> Well, that's what I was saying. So,
37:07it's a good thing they don't order it
37:08for even half, because there would be
37:09no prison space. That is what I have
37:10always told you. I wish I had that
37:12problem. I will see, as always, uh, in
37:15this government we solve problems and
37:17we do it however we have to, but we
37:19provide a solution, if only the others
37:22would also do it this way. Leave that
37:25problem to us; do not do me the favor
37:27of an inventory of the 74,000 from last
37:29year. Let's say 30,000 were justified
37:32cases, and what was done with those
37:3430,000?
37:35>> I can pull the information to present
37:36it; it would be very useful. Sure. As a
37:38percentage, and on the other matter,
37:40where does so much drugs end up? The
37:42drugs go—well, once the drugs are
37:45seized, they go to a storage facility;
37:47not the 32 warehouses nationwide that
37:50used to exist, just so you know. After
37:53that, the National Police immediately
37:56submit the necessary documents to the
37:58justice system so that they can
38:00authorize the destruction; we don't
38:03burn them in steel mills like before.
38:05There is another system. A system we
38:08use, and it is a system of a mixture we
38:10make with the drugs where it......
38:14>> that ruins it, because systematically,
38:17to have 147 tons—we are currently at
38:20147 tons seized this year, not counting
38:23another 70 tons.
38:25>> And do you guarantee that 100%of those
38:28seizures are destroyed?
38:29>> Of the 147, we have already processed
38:32100.88 tons. So, for...
38:34>> And the rest?
38:36>> Because those are drugs that were
38:37seized recently, and I have to wait for
38:39the judicial order. It doesn't depend
38:41on me; it's not like I can just take it
38:42and destroy it whenever I want. The
38:43average for this year is going to turn
38:45out lower than last year.
38:47>> Yes, and no. And I will tell you why
38:48yes and no. Because I have 70 tons that
38:51I am seizing, right? Of synthetic drugs
38:53, which is the ketamine, and that is
38:55already within......cataloged as an
38:59amine.
39:00>> Ketamine. Okay, okay, Fernando, okay.
39:02>> With that, I am at 203 tons of seizures
39:04.
39:05>> The other thing,
39:06>> pay close attention; I will try to be
39:08clear in the description of this and
39:10careful. In many sectors, Mr. Minister,
39:13an agreement between gangs for
39:15extortion has been institutionalized.
39:18They divide up the territory and do not
39:20disrespect each other. As a result of
39:23that, what is the outcome? Violent
39:26deaths, assaults, and kidnappings go
39:28down. There is a" relative "tranquility
39:32at the cost of—the data I found out
39:34has to do with a restaurant paying $
39:37200 monthly. Until now, only businesses
39:39are contributing, but it is starting to
39:41extend to houses, and in some cases,
39:42there are payments to the police. That
39:45is to say, the control of territory by
39:48gangs has been normalized, and people
39:50end up saying," 200 for my restaurant,
39:53in exchange for not being killed,
39:55assaulted, or kidnapped, I'll pay it. "
40:00There have been 3,228 people arrested
40:03this year for extortion. It is more
40:05than 45 million dollars that we have
40:07prevented from reaching the criminal
40:09gangs and structures. If I open my
40:11phone right now and look at the unread
40:13messages, I will see extortion threats
40:16that have come in during the time we
40:18have been talking. Let's be clear about
40:20something. Promoting the narrative that
40:23if we just pay, it becomes a peace zone
40:25because it's only 200. They made peace
40:28with the structures.
40:29>> Don't use that word. Use tranquility,
40:31>> Carlos. The structures will finish you.
40:35If you give them 200 today, tomorrow
40:37it's 400, and the day after that it's
40:38600. And that is how they are going to
40:40operate. We have been coordinating
40:43operations against extortion groups
40:45through the dynamic of the new
40:46Anti-Kidnapping and Extortion
40:47Directorate, where we are in every
40:49sector, even if there is no formal
40:51complaint, as a way of measurement.
40:53What is the measurement method? We
40:54arrive at a sector and look at how the
40:56commercial area is doing. What time
40:57does it open? What time does it close?
40:59Are the hours they are keeping normal?
41:01Is there a possibility of extortion? We
41:02send the investigation team to see who
41:04wants to talk, and we always find
41:06someone who does, and from that person,
41:08we extract the information to be able
41:10to strike. Understand that the weapon
41:12of extortion is this. This is a weapon
41:14of extortion. And if you check when I
41:16release the cases, because I post the
41:18cases on my social media, what do you
41:20find? Usually two young kids, three
41:23women over 50 or 60 years old who had
41:25four phones, and you will find that
41:27many cases are like that. Why? Because
41:29those ladies certainly know how to pick
41:31up a phone and write a message saying
41:32they are" Los Lobos. "
41:33>> I understand that this is widespread
41:34and exceeds the capacity of the police.
41:36I understand, but what I am trying to
41:38say, and I don't know if I was clear,
41:40is that the issue, as you have just
41:42described, is so vast, so broad, so
41:43generalized, that it is impossible to
41:45control beyond what you are
41:46specifically doing. I am not asking you
41:49to be magical or have superpowers, but
41:51there must be some other mechanism to
41:53avoid telling a neighborhood," Just
41:55resign yourself, "because 200 dollars a
41:57month as a payoff in exchange for not
41:59being killed is something you should be
42:01grateful for and not complain about. We
42:04will never tell a neighborhood to
42:05resign themselves. In every patrol we
42:08conduct, we seek to reach out to them,
42:10which is exactly why I am on the
42:12streets, so they can provide us with
42:13information about what is happening so
42:15we can attack it. The issue of police
42:18corruption. Yesterday and the day
42:20before, we carried out some operations
42:22where we managed to arrest some police
42:23officers who have been working, uh, on
42:25the wrong path, and the message has
42:27been clear. Send all of them to El
42:28Encuentro for me. Oh, and what do we do
42:30with the women? Do you send them to La
42:31Roca? Okay. Excuse me, Fernando.
42:33>> Uh, Minister, I know we are finishing
42:35the interview now, but if we recall
42:38what happened in '19, those violent
42:40demonstrations by terrorists, these are
42:42returning to Latin American countries.
42:46Well, in Europe there is a contagion in
42:48several countries where terrorists mix
42:50in with the legitimate claims regarding
42:52the cost of living for citizens. But in
42:55Latin America, even this, let's
42:57remember, was used for political ends;
42:59because it started in Ecuador, moved to
43:01Peru, took root in Chile, and in Chile
43:04they devastated Santiago and other
43:06cities for political purposes, because
43:08the stone-throwers and the destroyers
43:10then, in a short time, came to preside
43:12over the country, as in the case of
43:14Boric and, of course, Ms. Jimena
43:16Vallejo, who was the student leader. So
43:19, uh, these demonstrations have
43:21returned. In Chile, what is happening
43:23is tremendous. In Colombia there were
43:26also demonstrations, but two weeks ago
43:29I saw a demonstration in Quito of a
43:31group of hooded people dressed in black
43:33, which is precisely what the leaders
43:35in Europe are asking for, go out into
43:38the street dressed in black and with
43:40your face covered. That was already
43:44here in, in, in Quito, what was the
43:46result, what happened there? Yes,
43:49Minister. And what I
43:51>> Yes, yes, yes. What I want to tell you
43:54is that there must be a statement from
43:56the government that they will not allow
43:58it, because many times we are soft at
44:00the beginning—I don't mean you—and
44:02then we don't know how to control it.
44:05Let's cut it off at the start, Mr.
44:06Minister, and we would like a statement
44:08to that effect.
44:09>> Sorry, rather than just making
44:10statements, which we have done, we have
44:12demonstrated it. When they have wanted
44:15to alter the order and peace of
44:16Ecuadorians here. What has been the
44:19result? The public security forces have
44:21done their job and we have done it
44:23correctly, and we have sent a message
44:25that we will use all the necessary
44:26force. Remember the time of the strike,
44:28do you remember when they tried to mess
44:30with Quito? Which they had done
44:32countless times, they destroyed the
44:34city countless times, they couldn't do
44:36it; they couldn't break even a single
44:37window back then. Our force is prepared
44:41, and in fact, let me tell you in
44:43advance: in just a few days, I will be
44:45delivering specialized equipment to the
44:48UMO, which is the Public Order
44:49Maintenance Unit, the one that is
44:51usually here, necessary so that peace
44:53always prevails in the country and so
44:55that anyone who wants to disturb the
44:57peace knows they will face a strong
44:59response from the authorities. That,
45:02that is a thing of the past here. And
45:05one more thing, these issues happen in
45:07other countries because here we have
45:09already sent the message, we have been
45:11very firm, and that will continue to be
45:13the way we are going to do things. In
45:16other words, rest assured that there is
45:18a highly committed public force.
45:20>> Thank you very much.
45:21>> Very well, Mr. Minister. We want to
45:23thank you for your presence, an
45:25interview of practically an hour where
45:27we have been able to learn many things.
45:29I will also provide a summary of your
45:31second participation. Confirm for me,
45:33Daniel, if we have the character
45:35generator ready. We have it now.
45:37>> Not yet.
45:37>> Well, I will read it out. I will go, I
45:39will read what the minister has said.
45:41He confirms if
45:42>> you were writing on your cell phone at
45:44the same time.
45:45>> Can you do that?
45:46>> Like we used to do on typewriters. It
45:48is my job as a journalist.
45:50>> With the size of those fingers. How do
45:51you type there? Mr. Minister, you said
45:54the following, brother. He already said
45:57no, no. If you don't have thicker hands
45:59than me, I mean, it intrigues me. You
46:01said the following, confirm if what you
46:02have pointed out is accurate. We have
46:05investigated many hospitals, including
46:07the hospital in Ambato. $ 4,000 and
46:10other evidence were found. We are going
46:12to reinforce all ministries in the
46:14fight against corruption. Elsewhere you
46:16said, the public health system will no
46:18longer remain in the hands of the
46:19corrupt who have affected the health of
46:21the citizens. The Minister of Health is
46:23doing a good job every week, and I will
46:25be giving him my full support. You also
46:28pointed out that one of the reasons for
46:29the previous curfew was to dismantle an
46:31important transnational cartel, for
46:33which we had the support of American
46:35troops. He reported that between
46:37November 1st and 10th we are going to
46:39carry out similar operations, and our
46:40troops have orders to act with the
46:42progressive use of force as soon as
46:43there is even a slight threat against
46:45our personnel. He also makes it known
46:49that in the year 2025, 74,000 criminals
46:52were arrested, and so far in 2026, he
46:54has 60,460 criminals detained. You also
46:59pointed out that the drugs go to a
47:00supply facility and then documents are
47:02submitted to the judicial system to
47:03receive the destruction order at the
47:05moment
47:06>> of storage
47:07>> of the storage order. Let's see,
47:09>> it goes to a warehouse. The drugs go to
47:12a storage facility and then documents
47:14are submitted to the judicial system to
47:16receive the destruction order. So far,
47:20147 tons have been seized, of which 100
47:22tons have been destroyed. There are
47:26also 70 tons of synthetic drugs. You
47:29have pointed out that 3,228
47:31extortionists have been captured so far
47:33this year and the damage to the public
47:35has been blocked in 145,000 dol
47:37>> in 45,000 ones.
47:39>> In 45 million, not 145, right. At 45
47:42million is what has been blocked from
47:44the damage of the so-called"
47:46vaccinators "or extortionists.
47:47>> That is correct.
47:48>> What was said is what you indicated.
47:50Very well, then it's now on the record,
47:52as they say. Thank you very much, Mr.
47:54Minister.
47:54>> Thank you all for the invitation. Thank
47:56you for your questions.

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