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Carl Wilkens, Co-Founder & Director World outside My Shoes — Transcript

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0:06we're here with Carl Wilkins um who
0:10wrote about Rwanda and was there what it
0:14happened and your book is called I'm not
0:16leaving I'm not leaving some people say
0:19wait a minute but what's the title and
0:20I'm like I'm not leaving and they don't
0:22get it all right um we would like to ask
0:25you a few questions all right um first
0:28of all obviously at any given time there
0:30are lots of conflicts going on in the
0:32world and it's easy to oversaturate the
0:34global Community with all these issues
0:37um do you believe there's one specific
0:40conflict that's going on right now which
0:42isn't necessarily receiving the
0:44attention it deserves because some
0:47people say that they're very selective
0:48the media in their coverage of genocide
0:51or any conflict I would probably the
0:54first thing that comes to my mind is the
0:56Eastern Congo um and it's not that it's
0:59not getting much coverage um but I think
1:02it's coverage is not the kind of
1:03coverage that it needs to get I'm I'm a
1:06big believer in the stories of
1:08individuals and I think as people start
1:10to hear the individual stories coming
1:13out of there they'll they'll be driven
1:16to seek ways that they can cooperate to
1:19make a difference in that country but I
1:21mean it's really hard to choose like you
1:23said there are so many and and for the
1:25individual family that's going through
1:27the crisis man that's the worst crisis
1:29in the world for for them right then at
1:31that time so I I always encourage people
1:33when I'm talking with them to say um
1:37okay who have you connected with like I
1:39showed a picture of a young man from the
1:41Congo somebody in your neighborhood
1:43who's from Burma or somebody in your
1:45neighborhood from Sudan or someone in
1:47your neighborhood from Syria and so it's
1:49not necessarily that you know well the
1:51whole world needs to get here or there
1:53but we need to see who is is in our
1:56community that we can learn their story
1:59and then find ways to partner together
2:01with them but definitely um the Eastern
2:04Congo is is got huge loss of life and we
2:07don't seem to be anywhere near a
2:13solution do you think the word of looks
2:16genocide what it is in Civil War like
2:19Rwanda or Sri
2:20Lanka you know I think what what causes
2:24the world to kind of Overlook genocide
2:27isn't as much the title because we saw
2:30when we called uh what was happening in
2:32Dar for genocide it still didn't seem to
2:35increase the action of the world and so
2:37I mean it's important to use the right
2:39terminology and it's important to not
2:42you know call things that are not
2:44genocide genocide just because we think
2:46genocide will gather a lot of attention
2:48but I think what what really makes a
2:50difference is um the relationships that
2:54we have and of course I'm usually one
2:57who focuses more on the kind of social
2:59relationships and the personal
3:01relationships but of course there's the
3:02economic relationships the political
3:04relationships and things like that but
3:07what what's really tragic like in the
3:08case of Rwanda um there there was no
3:12significant political relationships and
3:14of course there was no economic gain and
3:17and there didn't seem to be much of a
3:19community there were some people in in
3:22in America you know back home in my
3:24country that were lobbying but they were
3:26such a small group and and I guess what
3:29gives me some hope now as we're facing
3:31these continued crisises as we're seeing
3:33more and more students get involved and
3:36using the social media and helping
3:38people to learn the stories um because I
3:41think once we learn the stories then
3:43then we're better equipped to help I
3:46mean it's it's so easy and then we'll
3:48hopefully help in a way that's more
3:50sustainable and effective it's really
3:51easy for people to say that nobody cares
3:53and I don't believe that I think we're
3:55all made to care we're wired to care but
3:58we often don't know how to care
4:00and so what are the tools that we can
4:02use and that's why for me I I know it
4:04sounds simple but I think no matter what
4:07situation we're looking at if it's a
4:09conflict at school if it's a conflict at
4:11the office in the neighborhood or a
4:13global conflict we've got to learn the
4:15stories that means we got to know how to
4:17listen that means we've got to lay aside
4:19our own agendas as we listen to these
4:21stories and then those stories will will
4:24inform us on how we can serve how we can
4:27partner how we can be a part what price
4:29we might might have to pay I think
4:31sometimes people just um don't have the
4:34tools and so it's very frustrating and
4:36you talked about conflicts you know
4:38around the world all the time you do get
4:41just overwhelmed with all of these
4:43conflicts so that's why you start with
4:46with who you know in your neighborhood
4:48um your friend maybe your friend is like
4:50the student Jordan who went over to
4:52Jordan you know and so you follow his
4:54blog and and and we have so many ways to
4:57follow the stories now to build those
5:00relationships cuz I really believe those
5:01relationships will will make the
5:04difference in terms of action and uh and
5:08ending
5:09genocide all right and could you tell us
5:11a bit more about your organization World
5:14outside my shoes Okay um about what is
5:17it probably eight years ago a
5:19documentary came out called ghost of
5:21Rwanda which was on the Rwanda and
5:23genocide and I have a few small parts in
5:26that documentary and so teachers started
5:28just emailing and saying would you come
5:30share your stories with my students you
5:31were there you saw it and for many it's
5:34just pages in a textbook or maybe it's
5:37pictures in a film but but um to have
5:41somebody who was there rehumanize that
5:44and so I I did that couple times a month
5:47for about four years and then with the
5:49genocide continuing in Dar for um I said
5:52basically you know for 88 nights I was
5:54in the hallway of my house wondering if
5:55the rest of the world cares during the
5:57Rwandan Genocide now I'm part of the
5:59rest of of the world and so I I quit my
6:01job and started traveling full-time to
6:03schools and my wife and I formed this
6:05organization called World outside my
6:07shoes which is basically just kind of
6:09another way of saying walking in someone
6:11else's shoes but but taking a time to
6:14really examine someone else's world and
6:17and that organization is set up to
6:18facilitate our work in going to schools
6:21to kind of be a framework so that uh we
6:24have a nonprofit that people can give
6:26money to and can help us to go to
6:28schools share these stories and um and
6:31community events too but primarily to
6:33schools and So eventually we hope World
6:36outside my shoes will grow into a
6:38storytelling organization that will
6:40provide the opportunity to others who
6:42have been through these through genocide
6:44and through these crisises to be able to
6:46share their stories
6:49too so the last question in your opinion
6:52is it possible to somehow eliminate or
6:55prevent genocide yeah I mean I'll answer
6:58you right up quick on that that one um
7:00because you know a lot of people get
7:02frustrated and they say never again is a
7:04meaningless phrase and and I'm saying
7:06wait a minute you know we haven't ended
7:09the people in Dar for are not back home
7:12but it doesn't mean that we failed um I
7:15think that thousands of lives have been
7:17spared I think uh people were talking
7:19about the potential for genocide in
7:20Kenya a couple years ago with those bad
7:22elections and and we responded in a way
7:25that I think did stop it you know
7:27condalisa rice went other world leaders
7:30sent you know from different countries
7:32sent people and so the the hard thing is
7:35you never know when you stopped the
7:37genocide you know because because it
7:39didn't become a genocide so we don't
7:41know if it was just violence that could
7:44have grown to genocide or not so I think
7:46we we can pull out from the Ivory Coast
7:48and other places we can pull out
7:50examples of where we have as a global
7:53Community come together and help to
7:56bring peace and so if we were able to do
7:59it there with a relatively small handful
8:03of activists and people in the in the
8:05you know Global Community imagine if
8:08more people learn the story and more
8:10people learn the story and so some
8:12people might say ah you know you're just
8:14idealistic and stuff we'll never end
8:17genocide I'm like well you can believe
8:19that but I'd rather live my life
8:21believing that we can and not just a
8:23wild belief that we can because like I
8:26said there's examples we just don't know
8:28how many times we have Stu genocide we
8:30do know the times where we failed and
8:33those times have to um you know Propel
8:36us and drive us on to share the stories
8:39with others and sometimes it's just as
8:41easy as putting a link on your Facebook
8:43page you know that's not hard and and
8:45somebody else learns or you share a book
8:47with somebody or you recommend a film to
8:49somebody else or or you have a crazy
8:51phone conversation like I did with my
8:53buddy Jordan and and you're there and
8:55you know now all of the students that
8:57follow our work and stuff in America and
9:00we visited two students in China and
9:02russan and Poland they get a little
9:04glimpse into Jordan and a glimpse into
9:07that refugee camp and and you just never
9:09know where that's going to end but I'm I
9:13really do believe that we can we can end
9:15genocide and and you know who would want
9:18to live any other way when there's a
9:20slight chance that you can boy you grab
9:23on to it and you say you bet we can do
9:26this yeah one last question uh have you
9:30been back to Rwanda a lot since you left
9:33um you know one of the things I I have
9:35been back um once or twice a year and
9:38one of the things I wanted to talk about
9:39this evening was um last January I went
9:41back to Rwanda with a group of theater
9:43students from Buffalo State College and
9:45so we're here talking about culture and
9:46diplomacy these theater students they're
9:49they're professors passion and about
9:50changing the world through theater he
9:52says you know theater is about the
9:54courage to speak and when you've got
9:56something to say well when you got the
9:58courage to speak speak in the place to
10:00speak you better have something to say
10:02so he he not only you know wants the
10:04students to to to understand that but he
10:07wants them to come firsthand see Rwanda
10:09and so we took these kids and I'll go
10:11again next January with another group of
10:13theater students they saw the memorial
10:15sites in Rwanda they heard the stories
10:17of survivors they um saw the success
10:20stories after the genocide and at the
10:22end of their two-e visit they got
10:24together with well they got together
10:25with Rwanda actors at the beginning and
10:27started to form these these um
10:29friendships at the at the beginning of
10:31their visit and and then at the end of
10:34their visit they got together with the
10:35Rwandan actors and they wrote a play
10:38based on their visit and then they
10:40rehearsed and performed the play before
10:42leaving they had about an hour talk back
10:44with about a hundred uh Rwanda
10:46University students who were in
10:48attendance at the play and then they
10:49brought the play back to America and
10:50they reworked it again and again and
10:52it's available online so anybody can see
10:54it now about the the restorative justice
10:57in Rwanda and it's set like a fable and
10:59there's a Storyteller and and there's
11:01figurative a hippo that you know wants
11:04to sing but the but the hyenas tell him
11:06he can't sing and it's just all got all
11:08kinds of creative parts to the play but
11:10I think that you know that's a really
11:12powerful way that we can communicate
11:15these stories and lessons and so I take
11:17um I've taken teachers back to Rwanda
11:19too and and students back to Rwanda um
11:23to learn about what's happening there
11:26you know one of the one of the important
11:28things after when you have a short time
11:30to talk afterwards you're thinking all
11:32these things you forget you know oh wish
11:34I could have said this or I could have
11:35said that one of the things that really
11:37um was important to me from the wandon
11:39genocide was that in every crisis we've
11:42got to look for allies and that's not a
11:44new thing people understand that you
11:46know allies got to find allies but but
11:49what's different in terms of Rwanda that
11:51I learned is that your allies can come
11:54from some very unexpected places and um
11:57there's a man who was in charge colonel
11:59in charge of the city of Kali during the
12:01genocide who later was captured tried
12:04and convicted of genocide crimes against
12:06humanity um and is serving a life
12:08sentence um for those crimes now but
12:12during the genocide this man and I
12:14formed a relationship and he helped me
12:16save the lives of hundreds of people
12:19what what basically I was able to do
12:21during the 3 months of the genocide was
12:25largely due to my relationship with this
12:27man and that was to work with groups of
12:29Orphans to bring them food and water and
12:32medicine I got my marching orders from
12:34this Colonel who was in charge of the
12:36city and I said look I'm here as a
12:38humanitarian how can I help the people
12:40of the city which is a which is I think
12:42a really important thing too we often
12:44come into a place and we think oh we
12:45know what we got to do you know and no
12:48and and even though this man is involved
12:50in the machine that was genocide he also
12:54had a part of him that I believe was
12:57very human and so you know I believe
13:00that every single person has this
13:03potential to make a positive choice and
13:05a positive decision take a positive
13:08action but if we write people off as
13:10this you know this is the enemy that's
13:13our biggest thing this is the enemy we
13:15may miss one of our most important
13:17allies in a situation but if we believe
13:20that the potential for good is in every
13:22single person then we've got a whole lot
13:24better chance of accessing that so so I
13:28kind of come to the point point where
13:29where I say you know what I used to be
13:32you know saying seeing is believing show
13:34me I'll believe now I'm more likely to
13:36say we see what we believe so that's why
13:39it's so important to examine the things
13:41that we believe because it affects the
13:43way we see and if we really believe that
13:46there's the potential for good in every
13:48person then we might find um some pretty
13:50unusual allies and some really
13:53unexpected places so you know looking
13:56for allies looking for something that
13:58you've value even in a person who
14:00appears to be the most horrible person
14:03looking for the good has become really
14:06important to
14:07me right okay well thank you so much for
14:09your time thank you thanks for the
14:11chance to be here inspiring first place
14:14I ever went in Afric Butterworth really
14:17back in 78 oh fantastic and
14:19congratulations on all the amazing work
14:21that you've done oh thanks really um I
14:23just want to make a comment on something
14:25that you said which is uh which kind of
14:27struck a cord with me and I and I really
14:29agree this idea that we're wired to care
14:32and um I like that and you gave just
14:35recently an example of of a man that
14:37you'd work with who who's now in jail
14:39for genocide um now I's this book to
14:43Jeremy rifkin's book uh empathic
14:46civilization exactly great book great
14:48YouTube clip if you don't have time to
14:50read the whole long book empathic
14:52civilization but keep going yeah no and
14:55I just wanted to know if you would be if
14:56you wouldn't mind commenting because um
14:59I know the work that they do at genocide
15:01watch um with Stanton's um uh NGO and he
15:06he um has this idea of psychic numbing
15:08and that we're actually numb to we
15:11become numb to to feeling and um which
15:15is quite different to what you're saying
15:16in terms of being wired to care um I
15:19would like I mean all of the work that
15:21all of you guys are doing is is
15:23incredible and I don't want to take away
15:24from that but it's interesting to me to
15:27say to see and to hear from you that
15:29after everything you've been through and
15:31seen you still believe that that people
15:34are wired to care yeah yeah I think that
15:38um as a survival Technique we might shut
15:42down feelings at times because it's just
15:46too overwhelming to deal with and I mean
15:48sometimes I'll have some high school
15:49kids and there'll be a little group who
15:51seem not to care or they're not paying
15:53attention during the presentation and I
15:55think I'm an okay Storyteller so I'm
15:56thinking wait a minute you know maybe
15:59these kids are so overwhelmed with other
16:01challenges in their life that to take on
16:03this story of the genocide would be just
16:05too much for them and and so I think
16:08that as a survival Technique we we may
16:11at times shut down emotions and and even
16:14for me I didn't talk about the genocide
16:17much for about nine years probably and
16:20and I talked a bit but but it was when
16:23the teachers came and and asked me and
16:25then boy I'd be telling the stories and
16:27the tears would start coming down and
16:29and I I'd get frustrated cuz I didn't
16:31want to cry in front of people and and
16:33then it comes to you one day hey you
16:35know this is not about you this is much
16:37bigger than you we're not wired for
16:39genocide so if we're not crying
16:43something's not right and and and and
16:46something's been shut down something's
16:48been turned off and so you know I've
16:50gotten past and you actually come to
16:52understand that sometimes tears are much
16:54more eloquent than words and and so I
16:57think that um it is painful and for me
17:01there's times I don't want to talk about
17:02genocide I'll have an audience full of
17:04high school kids and I'm like you know
17:07I've sometimes I give like 18
17:09presentations in a week and each time
17:11you're investing in stuff but then you
17:14come to the point where you say wait a
17:15minute when you think you can't do it
17:17you can and so you're like we can do
17:21this we can get through this moment and
17:24then we can get through the next moment
17:26and the next moment and so um I I
17:29totally understand when people shut down
17:32or maybe as Greg says become numb um and
17:35that's why I hope when people hear the
17:38idea that stories and service are two
17:40tools that we can put in our toolbox to
17:43approach pretty much any situation and I
17:46know it it's it's more complicated than
17:48that but I'm not sure that it's a whole
17:50lot more complicated and then we can say
17:53okay well then I'm going to learn the
17:55story and then um I'm going to find some
17:58way to to make a difference I I tell
18:00kids you know what what if we picked up
18:02the trash that we saw there on the
18:05street in our classroom you know around
18:08here picking up trash is easy the the
18:10question is often not here's the problem
18:14is that usually it's not that we can't
18:16do anything or that um we don't know how
18:20to do anything the biggest problem is
18:22usually the will to do something because
18:25once we have the will to do something
18:28then we find find away and I think it's
18:30important to
18:32practice having the will to do something
18:35which can be doing something not so
18:37pleasant something that cost us
18:38something something that we have to
18:40sacrifice a little bit for you know one
18:42kid wrote to me and said you know I
18:44thought about practicing the piano and
18:45practicing basketball but I never really
18:47thought about practicing and what did
18:49how did this kid describe it
18:53practicing she didn't say doing the
18:55right thing but practicing sacrifice
18:59practicing uh the the uh the will to do
19:04something so that so that you know my
19:06wife's the one who got me started on
19:07picking up trash but but you know saying
19:10thanks at a restaurant at at McDonald's
19:13or Taco Bell or whatever place you go to
19:16saying to the people thanks you know
19:18just getting in this habit of of
19:21appreciation I think those are simple
19:24little things that little tools that are
19:27really not Sol little they're big and
19:30and when we start to retrain you one of
19:32the earlier presenters talked about well
19:34yeah change is scary and change is hard
19:37but maintaining change is even harder
19:40and I think that that's why we have to
19:42practice these things we got to I I
19:45really appreciated um the idea that was
19:48expressed earlier in the conference of
19:49being able to step back and look kind of
19:51like a third person and and not while
19:55while I'm a big believer and getting
19:56your heart and everything engaged
19:58there's also a time to step back and say
20:01wait a minute you know if this is making
20:03me angry that anger better move me to
20:06action otherwise if I stay there I'm in
20:08a really weak place to make change cuz
20:12anger is not a good place sustained
20:15anger to be able to make change but
20:17quite often the natural reaction would
20:19be dealing with something like genocide
20:20that would would become angry and I was
20:23angry for years actually I couldn't
20:25salute the flag in America sport games
20:28and stuff people will salute the flag or
20:30you know and I was like who am I really
20:33angry at well the flag nah the flag
20:35still stands for what it always stood
20:37for this idea the value of an
20:40individual you
20:46okay no
20:48harm no harm and and I and I yeah yeah
20:53and I realized no not the flag and then
20:55I'm like well at the people of America
20:57and I'm like no there's people who care
20:59there really are people who care I'm
21:00broke down on the side of the road
21:01someone stops and helps me there's
21:03people who care we often just don't know
21:04how to care and then I'm like okay I'm
21:06mad at the blankety blank people in
21:07Washington DC and then you start meeting
21:09some of those blankety blank people and
21:11you start to see they're human their
21:13care and their compassion and then you
21:15say okay I'm angry at a way of thinking
21:18and that's what it's boiled down to for
21:20me with genocide it's us and them
21:22thinking it's solving a problem by
21:24excluding someone else exclusive problem
21:27solving and so then that's what we go
21:30after but we find out often that if we
21:33go after something with anger we're not
21:35going to be real successful so we've got
21:38to go after it with other tools and and
21:41and then we can actually say oh here's a
21:44new challenge you know what one of our
21:45speakers said this morning angry voices
21:48can build democracy so the next time I
21:51hear angry voices I got to see that as
21:53an opportunity not like something to be
21:56avoided or just calm down you know but
21:58an opportunity to listen opportunity to
22:00learn opportunity to build and and I
22:03think that only comes when we can step
22:06back from a situation and look at it
22:08kind of like a third person and say you
22:10know I'm not really sure I like the way
22:12I reacted in that situation next time I
22:14want to react differently I reacted from
22:17my own gut and my own history next time
22:20I want to pause and really hear what
22:22they're saying so that I can react not
22:24so much from my history or my pain but I
22:28can react according to their story and
22:31that that that I think is a skill that
22:34we've really got to work on taking
22:36ourselves out of the equation listening
22:39without judgment listening you know
22:41without without an agenda actually but
22:44that's that's hard Fant
22:47ADV thanks yeah thanks for your question
22:51yeah all right well thank you so much
22:53for coming here today it was an honor
22:55and a privilege having you to speak to
22:57well thank you thank you good to be with
23:01you

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