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Carl Wilkens — Transcript

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0:00museum's youtube youtube channel um
0:02after this evening
0:05we also would ask that you please make
0:06sure you're on mute well carl is giving
0:08this presentation
0:09and we will hold questions until the end
0:12but as the program is going on please
0:14feel free to type your questions in the
0:16chat box
0:16on your screen and we will answer them
0:19at the end in the order they came in
0:22on behalf of the museum i would like to
0:24welcome
0:25everyone to this evening's important
0:26presentation and conversation with
0:29author
0:30and storyteller carl wilkins for over a
0:32decade carl has been sharing stories
0:35around the globe to inspire and equip
0:37people to enter the world of
0:38the other carl was the only american who
0:41chose to stay in kigali rwanda
0:43throughout the 1994 genocide venturing
0:46out each day into the streets
0:48crackling with gunfire he worked his way
0:51through roadblocks of angry
0:53blood-stained soldiers
0:54and civilians armed with machetes and
0:56assault rifles in order to bring food
0:59water and medicine to groups of orphans
1:01trapped around the city
1:03working with rwandan colleagues they
1:06help save the lives of hundreds
1:08carl's storytelling does not stop with
1:10rwanda's tragic history but moves
1:12forward to the powerful
1:13recovery process please help me welcome
1:16carl wilkins
1:22there we go thank you so much megan um
1:25and thanks for the opportunity to be
1:27here together with you all
1:30this evening okay i see a glare i need
1:33to deal with just
1:34one second had to do a quick change of
1:38location
1:49all right that should help our screen a
1:51bit
1:52oh there's still a little bit of glare
1:54from somewhere else but i think we can
1:56live with that
1:58um yeah thank you really looking forward
2:01looking forward to i think i need to
2:03adjust my seat
2:05ipad up
2:08there we go that should work a little
2:11better
2:11okay um looking forward to a
2:14conversation this evening
2:16mostly i mean as always always do
2:18appreciate the opportunity to share
2:20stories from rwanda
2:22but i especially appreciate the
2:24opportunity for conversation so thanks
2:25for those of you who come
2:27probably finished a busy day at school
2:29and who knows what the week is going
2:31like
2:32this year with covet oh my goodness i
2:34let's see it was
2:36march 31st 2020 when we had our first
2:38tuesday evening coveted teacher meeting
2:41i say covet because we just got together
2:43teachers who i take to rwanda i've taken
2:45to rwanda got together to just uh
2:48discuss you know how's it going what's
2:51happening you know
2:52overnight you found out you had to teach
2:54online and so
2:55hats off to you teachers thank you for
2:58and sticking in there i know some have
3:00just decided
3:01they needed to go another route and
3:04i loved the other day talking with the
3:07teacher who just went
3:08into middle school he left university
3:10teaching
3:11and went into middle school teaching
3:14just because of the needs there
3:16in houston and uh that that was good
3:20good medicine for my heart to hear um
3:22his story
3:24and the the way he's loving loving his
3:27work
3:27so i always um try to
3:31begin talking about rwanda not talking
3:34about genocide
3:35uh rwanda okay that glare is striking me
3:39a little bit much just one moment and
3:42then i'll be able to be totally
3:44free
3:50in my thinking i get these things you
3:53might have gotten used to it okay that
3:55definitely improved it
3:57um able to and i'm gonna get on
4:00view in case okay totally get it too
4:03with your cameras off you you may have
4:04just been zoomed out today and you might
4:06be grabbing dinner and everything else
4:08so uh i'm good
4:11uh we uh hopefully when we get into
4:14conversation if we get a chance to
4:15switch the camera on that makes it a
4:17little bit easier
4:19but love to begin talking about rwanda
4:22um
4:22with more than just genocide rwanda is
4:25so much more
4:26than genocide you you look at this
4:28picture and oh
4:29man do i miss those delicious pineapples
4:32and avocados you know seriously no
4:35exaggeration to buy avocados like that
4:37and not all pit
4:39but all seed you know there's
4:42there's much to be thankful for and and
4:45this lady who's standing here smiling
4:48holding up that
4:50that it's just pretty
4:53astounding many people who i've taken
4:56back to rwanda
4:57over the last 12 years started in 2009
5:01taking teachers to rwanda
5:04are just blown away by the level of
5:07joy because it's understandable if all
5:10you've ever thought about with rwanda is
5:11genocide
5:12um you would think that you would come
5:14into a country of just
5:16devastated destroyed impoverished
5:20depressed people and while there is
5:22still
5:23much pain and grief people who
5:26you know are wrestling with depression
5:28and things
5:3027 years afterwards uh
5:33for many people there's little trace for
5:36the untrained eye
5:37i guess i would say of um of the
5:40of the uh evidence of the genocide
5:42except of course as you're driving
5:44around the country and you see memorials
5:45here and here
5:47quite quite uh it particularly in the
5:51center and the
5:52south of the country quite a number of
5:54memorials like that
5:56some of you too will probably remember
5:59rwanda before the genocide for its
6:01you know gorillas diane fosse gorillas
6:03in the mist
6:05i i i love i'm always checking the news
6:09to see what's new in rwanda
6:11and it was a couple of years ago that
6:13they started delivering blood to clinics
6:15with drones you know these remote
6:17clinics out in the hills this land of a
6:20thousand hills
6:21um it was also probably about
6:24let's see we just did a tiny bit there
6:27and you'll be able to see
6:29three years ago i think i want to say
6:32that uh
6:32volkswagen started to um
6:36assemble probably about four different
6:38units in rwanda
6:40and now they're importing an electric uh
6:43volkswagen
6:44into rwanda the first cell phone factory
6:48on the continent uh there in rwanda
6:51two years ago i think they started
6:52production on that no it was earlier
6:54because
6:55i was there um oh i was there
6:58in december 2019 i'll get to that in a
7:00moment this idea
7:02too that um in 14 years they're planning
7:05to be a middle-income country
7:07you know i first went to africa as a
7:09college kid in 78
7:11to south africa and a little south
7:14africa set up these little countries as
7:16what they called them the rest of the
7:17world didn't recognize it but the trans
7:19guy
7:20went to volunteer to school in 78 and
7:23visited zimbabwe during that time it was
7:25called rhodesia
7:27and then we worked in zimbabwe my wife
7:30and i right out of college for four
7:32years i was a shop teacher auto
7:34mechanics and stuff
7:36my point is it got kind of shucks
7:3978 oh my goodness 20 40 40 plus
7:43years ago that i first went to africa
7:45and in some places it seems to have
7:47changed
7:47little in those 40 years not rwanda
7:51they are very ambitious and this
7:53ambitious goal
7:54of even being a high income country in
7:572050
7:58this is not just wild dreaming before
8:01covid
8:02they had a economic growth weight
8:03greater than 10 percent
8:05so there's lots to um lots more to
8:09rwanda
8:09than genocide and you'll probably hear
8:12that theme a bit from me
8:14uh as we talk just like
8:17people are more than the worst thing
8:19they've done rwanda is so much more
8:22than genocide i was there and i was
8:25telling you earlier
8:26december 2019 so just about a year and
8:30four or five months ago
8:32and uh it was the end of the year
8:34meetings where
8:35the president all the cabinet ministers
8:37the whole government comes together for
8:39two days
8:40to listen to the people tell them how
8:42the country's doing
8:43i call it a reverse state of the union
8:45address and
8:46it could have been a real gripe session
8:48but these
8:49everybody whether they you can see the
8:51big screens up here
8:53um they had remote locations around the
8:56country
8:57and so people could be uh under a little
9:00white event tent
9:01out you know on the other side of the
9:02country speaking directly
9:04to the president uh it's not that the
9:07president answered i mean he was sitting
9:09right here in the front
9:10the mc would take the calls and direct
9:13them
9:14or the yeah the comments and direct them
9:16to the appropriate minister
9:18for example uh a lady says we're really
9:21grateful for the early childhood
9:22development centers here
9:24several of them in our county but in our
9:27section of the county
9:28we could use another one you know they
9:30they started almost every comment with a
9:33thank you
9:33which i think is a huge part of why it
9:36didn't become a great
9:37session it was just sometimes it was
9:40even festive there
9:41and if if a time came when a minister
9:44didn't
9:44quite handle the question what the
9:47president thought was to the best
9:48interest of the people he would speak
9:50up and say well wait a minute uh
9:51minister of agriculture this farmer
9:53he thanked us for the refrigeration unit
9:55so at the airport
9:56because he can now send his produce to
9:59europe
10:00but it was broken down he says and he
10:03lost the
10:04shipment has he been compensated for
10:06that shipment
10:07you know as you hear people um as
10:10i was sitting there and actually this is
10:13kind of funny because i don't think i'd
10:14ever found myself except i took my
10:16jacket off
10:17and so my white shirt right there and of
10:20course my white head is a little bit of
10:21a giveaway too
10:22but um and i was right behind the
10:24minister of agriculture
10:26as this farmer was talking about thank
10:28you but i lost the shipment because that
10:30you know
10:31and the president said has he been
10:32compensated
10:34you know as i sat there listening and i
10:36saw how the president was so attentive
10:38to detail
10:39and the needs of the people uh it was
10:43it was very impressive very moving as at
10:46his opening speech he said you know
10:48to uh you know fellow country
10:51fellow country uh citizens
10:56many countries can walk we are still not
10:59at that point yet
11:00we have to run and it was yeah it was
11:03just a very inspiring time i could go on
11:05and on about stories like that
11:06so if you want to explore that reverse
11:09state of the union
11:10actually it's called national dialogue
11:12council i don't know a lot of
11:14kenyarwanda but i love this word
11:15umushikirano
11:17every year this was the this year would
11:19have been that was the 17th
11:2018th uh yeah this last year would have
11:23been the 18th
11:24um umushikirano when when people have a
11:28voice
11:28and those of you who are teaching
11:29holocaust genocide education you
11:31understand there's a lot of factors
11:32that go into building a climate
11:37where genocide is more likely to happen
11:41and one of those factors and it's not
11:42always genocide how is finance i mean
11:44we've seen in america
11:46when people don't have a feel they have
11:48a voice
11:49are not feeling heard we see the violent
11:52response that often comes
11:55so this uh sorry back to that
11:58this that's the new sports center but
12:00back here at the
12:01convention center um that is just
12:05one of the ways that the government of
12:08rwanda has built
12:09in regular channels for people's voice
12:13to be heard
12:14other channels for people's voice to be
12:16heard i could go into so
12:18if you'd love that i'd love to explore
12:19it further uh the new sports arena
12:22i better move on here so in the spring
12:25of 90
12:26we actually moved my wife and i and our
12:28three kids
12:29we moved back to africa back to rwanda
12:35she's in there our daughters had been
12:37born in zimbabwe
12:39as i mentioned i was a shop teacher auto
12:41mechanics welding all that it was really
12:43rewarding work i came back got an
12:45mba and went back to rwanda to do
12:48development work
12:49partnering with the people of rwanda
12:50trying to make life better
12:52focusing specifically at our first
12:54projects were building schools
12:55then throughout the time we were there
12:57we were operating clinics
12:59it was super rewarding work we were
13:01there for four years our kids playing in
13:04the neighborhood
13:04perfectly safe great place to raise kids
13:08and that was four years before this
13:11fateful night
13:12april 6 1994 when the president's plane
13:15is shot down
13:16and a relatively small group of
13:18extremists will use that event
13:20to launch this horrific thing we now
13:22call the 1994 genocide against the tutsi
13:27the president will be killed in every uh
13:30home around the country there was at
13:32least a small radio and that radio is
13:34black broadcasting messages
13:36the tootsies have killed our president
13:38we got to get out they're the enemy
13:40and it wasn't a new message there'd been
13:42a campaign going on for
13:44probably a little more than two years
13:47somewhere around the two-year mark
13:48actively a campaign radio milklin
13:51was the station that was especially used
13:54with these messages
13:56comedians musicians all with a message
13:59against the tutsi people they were um
14:03let's see okay before i jump into
14:04history the
14:06these political let me actually jump to
14:08their picture for a moment
14:09this small group of men and women who
14:12plan the genocide
14:15they are constructing a narrative
14:18around identity which many of you will
14:21recognize huh
14:22in terms of you know whether it's the
14:24identity of the jewish people or whether
14:26it's a religious identity you know some
14:29regional idea building uh a narrative
14:32around an identity to achieve the goals
14:36of the leaders and in this case it was a
14:39small
14:40segment and their goal was not to share
14:43power
14:44that that would be a great time we can
14:46come back to this little
14:47very kind of simple basic timeline
14:50of the belgians coming in the late 1800s
14:53after world war one
14:55you know sorry the germans in the late
14:581800s after world war one
15:00reallocation of country i don't know how
15:02to say that
15:04i would say obscene practice
15:08but um the belgians are there and
15:10eugenics it's
15:12it's it's strong in america it's in
15:14europe and it's even in rwanda
15:16a gentleman i'll introduce you to later
15:18demas running an orphanage
15:21we're together he and i at the u.s
15:23holocaust museum
15:252003 in dc
15:28and we're walking through the museum
15:30together and he sees
15:32the sections there where they had
15:34calipers and they were
15:35measuring people's head or our eye color
15:39all of this quote scientific eugenics
15:42that's going on
15:44and he says i remember that when i was a
15:46kid in rwanda
15:47i remember them measuring people's noses
15:49you know
15:50checking out the shape of their skull
15:53all of these things
15:54this is i mentioned this i spend a
15:56couple of moments extra on this
15:59because the genocide is not gonna it
16:02doesn't spring from one source
16:04there's as i'm sure most of you are
16:06aware
16:07there's a lot of different contributing
16:09factors
16:11but one of them is this historical it's
16:14it's
16:14um this historical classification this
16:17historical
16:17racism tribalism this historical
16:21uh it's not like rwanda was no country
16:24is perfect huh there's always
16:25we always seem to have an in-group and
16:27an out group
16:29and and someone who who is put forth as
16:32superior or puts themselves forth as
16:34superior someone
16:35in fear that kind of dynamic happens all
16:38the time
16:39but that dynamic was taken to a much
16:41deeper level
16:42with the arrival of the belgians with
16:44this idea of eugenics
16:46favoring the um tootsie people
16:50if you look at an id card uh from back
16:53before the genocide
16:54you would see on there the word hutu is
16:57crossed out
16:58um tutsis cross has not so this person's
17:01obviously a tootsie
17:02tois that the smallest who do the
17:05majority
17:06tootsie that not maybe 10 12
17:1012 maybe less than two percent um
17:13naturalized here and i mean otherwise
17:16it's a regular id card huh your date of
17:18birth your
17:18your your place of birth your date of
17:20birth your profession you know
17:22your home address um but that
17:25id was such a crucial part here this
17:28narrative constructed around the
17:30identity
17:31so when that plane is shut down and
17:34they're telling people
17:35um you know get out and defend your
17:38neighborhood the tutsis
17:39have killed our president they're trying
17:41to take over they're broadcasting it
17:43speakers from trucks they got a picture
17:45of the president
17:46there just whatever they can do to build
17:48the hype
17:49around this time and roadblock
17:53uh set up by the people often sometimes
17:56by military checking id cards
18:00a brutal brutal time i
18:03just stuck these words down here these
18:06two words
18:07words kill i don't have
18:10any other graphic images here this
18:13evening you've seen them if you've seen
18:14the documentary goes to rwanda
18:17um even our our short 40-minute film we
18:20tried to be really
18:22respectful and and
18:25respectful of the people who died
18:27respectful of the people who be watching
18:29the film
18:30using that archival footage judiciously
18:33of these families
18:35we have no idea what we lost as a human
18:39family
18:40in this three-month period when more
18:42than a million people
18:44will be killed by their government
18:46betrayed by their churches
18:48their faith leaders their neighbors
18:52sometimes family members the story of
18:55betrayal
18:59this was the this was the um i would say
19:02the working
19:04philosophy of the genocide genocide
19:07stems from thinking this is my world
19:09would be better without you in it
19:10i i wrote this
19:152004 yeah 15 17 years ago
19:18as i was just beginning to be invited
19:21some of you who've seen ghosts of rwanda
19:23you might know i was one of the people
19:24interviewed in that film a teacher
19:26started asking will you come talk to my
19:28students you know back in 2004 and i'm
19:31just trying to figure out how do i tell
19:33this story
19:34how do i explain genesis i mean you know
19:36we you've all probably done this
19:38in your classrooms you know you can take
19:40that word gino inside and we can talk
19:42about homicide suicide but
19:44i really felt the heart and and this i
19:47haven't come up with a better
19:48kind of one line definition of
19:52genocide in these last 16 17 years
19:57other than this thinking this is my
19:59world will be better without you in it
20:00and one of the reasons i feel like it
20:02really
20:03captures it for me is that sometimes i
20:05think that
20:06i don't want to kill anybody but i think
20:07man if i don't have to deal with this
20:09person
20:09you know if oh i can't wait till i don't
20:11have to deal or they'll be gone
20:13anytime i think i'm gonna solve or we
20:16think we're gonna solve a problem by
20:17excluding you know
20:19shutting out uh it's going to be
20:22it's going to be temporary at best it'll
20:24be genocide at worst
20:26so this small group of men and women who
20:28are afraid of sharing power
20:30i i want to be mindful over time and i
20:33want to get into conversation because
20:34i'm already looking at the time here
20:36wondering how in the world
20:37um so we can get into the arusha chords
20:40that three-year war i didn't
20:42quite finish our timeline back here we
20:44can dig
20:45into that a little more if you'd like to
20:48and when the genocide finally starts in
20:5094
20:51i'll leave that up to you for right now
20:53let me just
20:54add in in this kind of leading up to the
20:57genocide
20:58uh part the role or the the
21:02failure the betrayal of the united
21:05nations
21:06and i've recently been saying it'd be
21:08really good if there's a parenthetical
21:10statement under those black u.n letters
21:12there on that armored personnel carrier
21:14this is only for u.n personnel
21:16protection because it gave all of us
21:18foreigners rwandans alike a huge
21:22false sense of security and
21:25unfortunately when the killing starts
21:26these 2 500 soldiers
21:29who are really enough to stop the
21:31genocide
21:32fortunately just under 300 will stay
21:35and and they will save thousands of
21:38lives making a very strong case that if
21:40all 2500 would have stayed
21:41and been supported they could have
21:43stopped the genocide
21:45now again i'm not i'm not trying to put
21:47everything in one basket so to speak but
21:49there's a key
21:51part to the story here of the failure
21:53and
21:54if any of you did see a ghost of rwanda
21:57you might remember
21:58part uh they actually played it in their
22:00trailer before they were broadcasting
22:02back in 2004
22:04where i was talking about being so angry
22:06at america the beautiful america the
22:08brave
22:09and not just angry at america but angry
22:11at the u.n for 20
22:12till 2017. yeah
22:16so that's 17 so 23 years i was defining
22:19the u.n
22:20by their failure you know i said rwanda
22:22is so much more than genocide
22:24the u.n has so much more than their
22:26failure in in
22:27rwanda in 1994 but i was stuck
22:31in that one thing thinking which has
22:34become a
22:35really important concept for me
22:38coming out of the trauma the ptsd
22:41and and trying to wrestle with how does
22:43rwanda put it back together again
22:46some race and a bit ahead here let me
22:48just um
22:49the the american government as well as
22:52other governments who were saying we got
22:53to get our citizens out
22:55our our embassy laura a really brilliant
22:58compassionate
22:59young woman who was in charge of getting
23:01all the americans out of there
23:03um was you know
23:06i was on the radio with her coordinating
23:08the evacuation of a group of americans i
23:10was a warden they called us wardens with
23:12the american community was broken up
23:14into sections and i was responsible for
23:16one section
23:17and i said laura i'm sending the dental
23:20group compound group to the ambassador's
23:22home over we had identified assembly
23:24points
23:25if there was you know if we needed to
23:27evacuate
23:28and she says good copy and i go and now
23:30i'm send also sending my family to the
23:32ambassador's home and she comes back
23:34says what do you mean sending i said
23:35well i'm not leaving
23:36no you you can't stay we are all the
23:38ambassador nobody is staying behind
23:40and and i'm like well i am staying as a
23:43private american citizen and
23:46we can get into that decision and
23:48conversation more too if you choose
23:50but let me just tell you that um
23:54here's the heart of the decision why my
23:56wife and i decided that i would stay
23:59the embassy said that that get your
24:02family and we'll evacuate you all this
24:04convoy will drive south to burundi that
24:06little twin
24:07country to rwanda um but don't bring any
24:11rwandans
24:12and we had a young lady who lived and
24:13worked who loved on our kids i often say
24:16loving on somebody's kids is like fast
24:18track to becoming family
24:20young men who came in the evening as the
24:22watchmen they both had tootsie id cards
24:24my wife and i just couldn't imagine
24:26leaving them
24:27knowing that this leaving them knowing
24:30that they would probably be killed
24:31also knowing that that rwandans had this
24:34huge amount of respect and privilege
24:36that they gave to foreigners
24:38which which has some pretty i think
24:42racial racist roots to that part of that
24:45story but
24:46but we thought maybe if we could use
24:49this privilege
24:50we could uh help these two people
24:54survive
24:54we have no idea it's going to be a
24:56million people we have no idea to last
24:58for three months
25:00not even sure if we knew the u.n was
25:02pulling out at that point
25:04it might have i'm not sure on that but
25:07my wife
25:07um oh and by the way the young lady will
25:10survive
25:11these are years later her sons her
25:13husband
25:14young man survived as well teresa takes
25:16our kids to safety
25:18i stay behind and for basically the next
25:21three months
25:22i'm working i have the young man and
25:24young lady in my home
25:26but also a couple a pastor and his wife
25:28a more recent picture
25:30who had hutu id cards they were not
25:32marked to be killed they could have gone
25:33to a quieter part of the country
25:35but they chose to stay with me when um
25:40when i invited them and told them i'm
25:42staying you know i'm not leaving it
25:44and so she would go down to the gate
25:46often to turn back the ones who were
25:48there to kill the people in our house
25:49she'd talk to him like they were her own
25:51kids
25:51de-escalate the situation he's this deep
25:54well of wisdom counsel
25:56he said to me carl if you're going to do
25:58anything outside the house
26:00you're going to have to build a
26:01relationship with the people in power
26:03that's the only way you'll be able to do
26:05anything
26:06outside of the house and that will be
26:08the beginning of some very
26:09bizarre relationships the colonel in
26:12charge of the city colonel renzaho we
26:14could look him up on the internet
26:16uh captured fortunately after the
26:18genocide tried convicted
26:20but he and i he'll he'll direct me to
26:22some orphanages uh
26:24he'll he'll give me a travel permit
26:25which i couldn't have made it through
26:26the roadblocks without that
26:28obedience to authority big part of this
26:31story
26:32and i'll meet damas the gentleman who i
26:34told you
26:35uh remembered as a kid seen that that
26:37kind of eugenics
26:39equipment as a kid he will uh have
26:42he and his wife although she'll be
26:44hiding because she'll have a tootsie id
26:45card
26:46he'll have a the genocide just in case
26:49and i'm sure probably most of you are
26:50familiar with this but just in case
26:52someone might be just getting introduced
26:54to the story
26:56it's not a story of hutu and tootsie
26:58hating each other
26:59they loved each other more than they
27:01hated each other without
27:02any i have no question about that the
27:05planners and the genocide in fact are
27:06going to have to work hard
27:07to break the bonds connecting often
27:10through marriage or business or
27:12church choir or things i'll tell you you
27:14know
27:16some church bonds didn't hold some
27:19marriage bonds didn't hold
27:21definitely government trust and things
27:23didn't hold but you know what some of
27:24the bonds that held were
27:26soccer bonds soccer teams it's it's
27:29interesting to study that part
27:31of what held together during the
27:33genocide and what
27:34didn't but demas will be running an
27:37orphanage his dad started by the end
27:38he'll have more than 400 kids there
27:40trying to give them shelter i will work
27:44together
27:44with my two rwandan colleagues to be
27:47food and water
27:48to these um to these children they were
27:50literally dying from diarrhea
27:52they just needed food water medicine
27:56my good friend dawson worked courageous
27:58friend with me
27:59we had we were working together hey
28:01before the genocide he was one of
28:02my co-workers hat once again had a who
28:05to id card his wife had a tutsi
28:07my other colleague similar situation
28:10and he actually had 40 people he was
28:13working to protect
28:14in his home when they came to kill the
28:16people he literally
28:18he flipped the script by coming out with
28:20respect
28:21empathy and inclusion respect
28:24bernard you know i see a killer or an
28:27enemy
28:28he sees a neighbor he sees a father you
28:30know
28:31your daughters must be hungry huh do you
28:33want to take some chickens home
28:37i'm tempted to say there's so many
28:39stories like this
28:41but if there were so many stories like
28:42this the genocide could have been
28:44prevented
28:45or stopped so
28:48stories like this happened but i just
28:50pause
28:52i pause because um
28:55the minister of the minister of justice
28:57today in rwanda the minister of justice
29:00minister busine he he was gracious
29:03enough to join about 60
29:04teachers uh an organization an event a
29:08zoom event we pulled together a couple
29:09weeks ago
29:10and as he was talking to these 60
29:12teachers about rwanda's journey from
29:14genocide to today
29:16and restorative justice which we're
29:18really going to hit here in a second
29:20um he said that
29:23the perpetrators of the genocide
29:27killed the tutsi people because of who
29:29they were
29:30and they killed them because of who
29:34they themselves were do you follow that
29:37i don't think i said it quite as
29:38articulately as he did they killed the
29:41people because of their identity
29:43but something about those who killed
29:46their identity
29:48made it possible and we'll explore that
29:51just a little more
29:53that the um genocide will end when the
29:55rwandan patriotic front
29:57will pick up their guns they have there
29:59had been that three-year war these were
30:00mostly refugees
30:02from rwanda or children of refugees they
30:04wanted to come home for 30 years
30:06peaceful means couldn't couldn't finally
30:08got guns to come home by force
30:10that three-year war everybody laid their
30:12guns down thought we were going to have
30:14peace with the arusha court
30:16and the small group said no no we will
30:19never share peace
30:20they launched the genocide and the
30:22rwandan patriotic front
30:23led by general kagame picked up their
30:25guns again
30:26and after three months were able to stop
30:29the genocide
30:30drive the extremists out of power and
30:33out of the country
30:34and then there was that big job of
30:37trying to put the pieces together
30:39i am as you might imagine had this
30:43unbelievable reunion with my family
30:48but for the people of rwanda
30:51how do you move forward with so much
30:54like out of them out of a million
30:56sorry out of seven million people one
30:59million are killed
31:00everybody is impacted either somebody
31:02who killed
31:04is related to them or somebody who was
31:06killed
31:07it's really an unimaginable task
31:11of this country that is in many ways an
31:14open
31:14graveyard literally body
31:18strewn this smell i've talked to people
31:20who were going around
31:21gathering evidence uh trying to prepare
31:24about tribunals
31:26this one lady in our state department
31:27who was over there who spoke kenya wanda
31:30which really gave her
31:31a deeper understanding she just said it
31:34was like
31:35it was like people who were alive
31:37outside but dead
31:39inside for so many
31:42so this is what i want to do is i'm
31:45looking here at our time
31:46window um i am going to
31:52we're going to um
31:55before we talk about rwanda's
31:58um rwanda's restorative process
32:02i want to just look at this word cynical
32:05and i want to kind of address cynicism
32:07head on here because
32:08we all have it i prefer to look at it in
32:11a continuum
32:12and and and you know maybe at the at the
32:14end of the day i'm more cynical than at
32:16the beginning
32:16i have more hope maybe at the beginning
32:18than the end but i want to talk
32:20intentional ways of moving which i've
32:23learned
32:24i believe from the journey of the people
32:26of rwanda to move
32:28from um from a
32:31easily understandable cynical
32:33perspective to be more and more and more
32:35and more hopeful not that we'll ever be
32:38free of cynicism or maybe should be well
32:41that's another conversation
32:42but but this journey kind of from
32:45cynicism to hope
32:46and in very practical terms in rwanda
32:48from a punitive
32:50approach to a restorative approach and
32:53one of the things i think we've got to
32:54deal with
32:55in this is not only addressing our
32:58cynicism
33:01often say cynicism is not wise
33:04and hope is not naive but also
33:07addressing this good guy
33:08bad guy mentality which is all over the
33:10place including right in my brain
33:13i you know i know cerebrally no such
33:15thing as a good guy bad guy
33:16but in in daily thinking in life i'm
33:19often thinking oh no that guy no can't
33:21trust them you know
33:23and so instead of just saying there's no
33:25such thing as good guy bad guy because
33:26we all know
33:27you know philosophically cerebrally we
33:30can all
33:31that that line divides all of us
33:33potentially
33:34of the good and the evil lately and and
33:37this is
33:37i think where cynicism thrives with this
33:40strong
33:41good guy man guy bad guy mentality is
33:44the idea
33:45that instead of saying good guy bad guy
33:48let's let's try this on for a moment
33:51that people are often on a path
33:54or a trajectory towards harm
33:58a trajectory towards healing in our
34:00particular conversation
34:02we might talk about a trajectory that's
34:04polarized
34:06or trajectory that's more restoring and
34:08the reason i like the path
34:10is it it helps me subconsciously
34:14and consciously to believe that people
34:16can change
34:17paths people maybe and i think we all
34:20definitely
34:21we all know people we have students
34:23we're like oh my goodness they're on
34:24such a
34:25destructive path and then we see them
34:27change past and um and
34:29that's why we're teaching you know that
34:31idea of instead of good guy bad guy
34:33thinking of it
34:34in terms of trajectories or paths
34:37and and that fits really well with brian
34:41stevenson who founded the equal justice
34:43initiative
34:43this quote that i love i believe that
34:46each person
34:48is more than the worst thing they've
34:50ever done and if you haven't checked out
34:51brian stevenson's work oh my goodness
34:53i'm sure most many
34:54probably have but uh his work first with
34:56uh prisoners on death row
34:58uh wrongfully accused and and then the
35:01um
35:03legacy museum right uh
35:06okay i almost went off there but i'll
35:07pause i just
35:09one okay one little snapshot brian talks
35:12about how
35:13we didn't deal with our genocide
35:16of native americans and when we don't
35:18bring out the truth
35:19and we don't pri and understand the harm
35:22which is really crucial to restorative
35:24practices
35:25understanding the harm before you can
35:27ever devise a plan to repair
35:30that set us up he says or contributed
35:33perhaps i don't want to put words in his
35:35mouth
35:36to 250 years of slavery and then
35:39understanding the harm of
35:41slavery and each of us our individual
35:43stories are institution stories
35:46to have a repair plan i've just learned
35:48and continue to learn a lot from
35:50brian um i am going to have to skip over
35:53this one story just because i want to
35:55get to your questions and we can come
35:56back here
35:57but this story just talks about guys who
35:59one day we're gonna kill
36:01uh us a group of i just arrived at the
36:04orphanage with water
36:06and and uh i end up asking the prime
36:09minister to stop the massacre which is a
36:11crazy
36:12kind of unexpected very illogical story
36:17but i go back to get the orphans things
36:19after they got moved from that
36:21horribly violent location
36:24and the same guys who are going to kill
36:25us
36:27i give them a letter of uh that i have
36:29authorizing me to collect the orphans
36:30things to take them through
36:31all the roadblocks to get to the church
36:33where they're now located
36:35and and these same guys who are going to
36:37kill us start volunteering and working
36:39talk about
36:40a change of path maybe just for a couple
36:42of hours but this idea
36:44of uh
36:48moving on this continuum
36:51hold on to that for just a moment we're
36:54working right i say we
36:55world on summation little non-profit i
36:57have and a group of teachers and others
36:58i'm just
36:59piloting these ideas we're working on a
37:01hope-based process for addressing
37:04injustice polarization division it's all
37:07very
37:08very interrelated here often we go and
37:10try to engage the other
37:12and and we end up with a bloody
37:13hopefully metaphorical bloody nose we're
37:15like oh they're impossible
37:16without taking any time to prepare
37:18ourselves to reframe the other
37:21and to then engage and that's the
37:24framework that i'd like to share
37:25rwanda's restorative journey with you
37:28this evening
37:29this idea of preparing ourselves
37:31reframing the other
37:33and then engaging the other and um
37:36we we won't go through all of the you
37:39know the six parts to this three-step
37:41process we'll just be primarily in part
37:44one this one that
37:45i'm calling checking my checking my
37:48vitals here um
37:50and and this journey from from cynicism
37:53to hope
37:54and we won't even go as deep as some we
37:56could
37:58on a hope that is grounded in the
38:00potential for good
38:02combating this idea of good guy bad guy
38:05a hope that's grounded in the potential
38:07for good in every person
38:08in a restorative mindset which we'll
38:11talk about in a moment
38:12in a practice of gratitude and we won't
38:15get to the emotional intelligence part
38:16but that
38:17that hope doesn't have to be a nebulous
38:20ethereal kind of thing
38:21it's something that we really can have
38:24take concrete steps concrete actions
38:26to move on this continuum
38:30and so we'll just do the restorative
38:34part here and come to your questions see
38:35if i can do this in three more minutes
38:38the government the new flag of the
38:40government of rwanda has this uh
38:42unimaginable task of putting the country
38:44back together
38:45they could have easily gone with the
38:47philosophy that was there at the time of
38:48the genocide and this is what we often
38:50do
38:51repeating our our cycles and our
38:55our violent thinking but instead of
38:58going with
38:59my world would be better without you in
39:00it they flipped the script
39:02and said no our world will be better
39:05with you in it
39:06and the only way i can wrap my mind
39:08around because who's going to argue with
39:10the idea that my world would be better
39:12without people who committed genocide in
39:13it i mean you know i don't know lock him
39:15up throw away the key
39:16rwanda rwanda did away with the death
39:18penalty
39:20in effect they could have had like a
39:21legalized second genocide
39:24by using the law in the death penalty to
39:26execute people which
39:28i can't imagine what kind of bloodbath
39:30that would have been but
39:31but they this idea my world would be
39:33better with you in it the only way i can
39:35begin to wrap my head around it for
39:36people who've
39:37done genocide is the belief that people
39:41can change
39:42course i added that word just a few days
39:44ago i used to talk about people can
39:46change
39:46but i'm i'm i'm really trying to develop
39:49in my own thinking and understanding
39:51this idea
39:52a little more specific they can change
39:55course
39:56and and uh it's just i haven't changed
39:59this picture
40:00yesterday's talking to teachers in the
40:01uk and so they're on this different side
40:03of the road
40:04and they don't call it exits in the uk
40:06they call it a slip road
40:08anyway the the idea that we can change
40:10course we can get off the path of the
40:12road we're on
40:14and exit off which also introduces the
40:17idea
40:17how easy do we make the on-ramps to the
40:20good path
40:21and i'm talking school discipline
40:23business practices so much stuff here
40:25but
40:26um rwanda will maybe get into neural
40:30pathways in our q and a time
40:31the president said we choose to stay
40:34together
40:35we chose to stay together we chose to be
40:38accountable to ourselves
40:39and we chose to think big and that
40:43one example of thinking well one example
40:45thinking big is their their new
40:46constitution says 30
40:48of all the decision-making bodies have
40:50to be women minimum
40:5130 percent we've had gender we've been
40:54way behind for too long
40:55that's a big thinking thing i i think
40:58we're still
40:59maybe around 20 or just over 20 percent
41:01in dc it
41:03um either way they had to think big was
41:05what do we do with all these prisoners
41:07and so this was a big giant step they
41:10took
41:12kind of like two parallel judicial
41:14systems in rwanda one that they would
41:16rebuild
41:17along traditional lines of of what we
41:20understand
41:21justice in modern day to be which is
41:24largely punitive
41:25for genocide they said we're going a
41:28restorative approach
41:30and this is pretty um pretty dramatic my
41:33short version
41:34in comparison from punitive which is we
41:37got to find out who did it you know
41:38who's to blame
41:39punish them punish them hard if it's
41:41really bad
41:42put them back in society they do it
41:44again i can't believe that punish them
41:45put them back they do
41:46that cycle of violence which is often
41:49navigated with lawyers and judges as
41:52opposed to the restorative mindset
41:55that is all about understanding the harm
41:58and coming up with the repair plan
42:01and you really can't understand the harm
42:03if you don't have all the voices
42:06you really can't come up with a
42:07sustainable repair plan if you don't
42:09have all the voices
42:10and and so picture this with me maybe i
42:13need to make another graphic here but
42:16the pyramid of restorative justice the
42:18top of the pyramid is not justice
42:21as i understand it okay and and please
42:24you know
42:25you all some of you probably understand
42:26this much better than me
42:28so this is just my understanding
42:31the top of that pyramid is not justice
42:33as i understand it the top of that
42:35pyramid
42:35is healing understanding the harm sorry
42:39repair plan healing top of punitive
42:42is justice so in rwanda when they said
42:46pick um nine people that you trust in
42:50the community
42:51we're going to set up a community court
42:53a community based court system here
42:55okay we're going to call it we reached
42:57way
42:58back into our history to how we handled
43:00problems long ago
43:02and you who've been accused of genocide
43:06you might have been in prison for a year
43:07to your five years and you never know
43:09when you're going to get your trial
43:10because
43:15we don't have enough judges we don't
43:16have enough courts how can we
43:19it'll be a hundred years the people will
43:20die before we get to try them all
43:23you want a fast track home come to the
43:26place where you did the cr
43:27or you're accused of the crime well you
43:29did the this is basic for people ready
43:31to confess this is not for everybody
43:33okay but for those who are ready to
43:35confess and go home
43:36and that's a big part of restorative it
43:38is collaborative
43:40if we went deeper um
43:44come back there thursday afternoon close
43:46school close shops everybody go to
43:48soccer field
43:49you've selected your judges at least a
43:50third of them are women right
43:52and the and the sash here says person of
43:54integrity
43:55and you can start confessing let's say
43:58this prisoner wasn't sorry
44:00they don't they're not remorseful at all
44:02for what they did
44:03but they'll go and they'll confess
44:05because it can cut their time in half
44:07and they'll get to go work
44:09in a community camp show your picture in
44:11a moment where they can
44:12be working to do projects to better the
44:16country
44:17and that's a whole lot better than the
44:19prison conditions
44:20and so i'm not sorry but i'm gonna go
44:22confess
44:23and uh and take this fast track to get
44:26home
44:27and then i get there and i look around
44:29and i see a young lady that
44:30looks like that might be my niece i
44:32haven't seen her for years
44:34i look at that that uh gentleman over
44:36there and i'm like i think that was my
44:38fourth grade teacher
44:39and the rationale the logic that has got
44:42been so rock solid in my head is
44:44it wasn't my fault the government
44:45ordered me to do it i'm not to blame
44:48as i start to tell my story and it lands
44:50on the ears
44:51of my niece or my old fourth grade
44:54teacher
44:55it sort of begins to crack a little bit
44:57and it's not as solid and sound
44:59and so this whole idea of
45:03understanding the harm and having a
45:06healing
45:07of course isn't just for the perpetrator
45:09which is a huge part of it
45:11but how do we have healing as well for
45:14the
45:14uh sorry i said that backwards not just
45:17for the
45:18survivor but also how do we have healing
45:21for the
45:22for the perpetrator so the gacha is
45:24largely about learning the truth
45:27and and this truth being so necessary
45:29which is why i took a couple minutes
45:30with brian stevenson
45:32and talking about us recognizing
45:33acknowledging and
45:35engaging with the truth of these stories
45:38and then this word of engaging how can
45:41we
45:41engage perpetrators survivors bystanders
45:44how can they engage in a safe way some
45:47people when they heard that rwanda's
45:48plan was to do this
45:49cachaca they're like you're crazy you'll
45:51start another genocide you'll have fires
45:53all over the country
45:54the empowerment that came to the local
45:56community through gacha
45:59huge part of the story then they would
46:02move out
46:02into the tiege camps where they could
46:06be part and this is not okay they had
46:08perpetrators at a top level a mid-level
46:11and the ordinary masses this is
46:14primarily for the masses
46:15and mid level top level we're still
46:17going to be in prison
46:18and stuff but um i'm here with some high
46:21school kids in 2015
46:24you could never tell by the smiles on
46:25their face that they're talking to these
46:28200 men and women
46:29who were part of the genocide whether
46:32they
46:33physically actively killed raped burned
46:35homes
46:36or gave away the hiding place of people
46:39but what's happening at the tiege camp
46:41you're not paying back for killing
46:43because you can't
46:44what's happening is you're getting an
46:46opportunity to reinvent yourself
46:49to be more than the one worst thing that
46:51you've ever done
46:52reinvent yourself in your own mind
46:55reinvent yourself in the mind of the
46:57community all around there's no fence
46:59the guards don't have guns
47:00collaborative on the weekend they may go
47:02to a local church there
47:04i don't know i'm guessing some of them
47:06probably even joined the local choir
47:08so this opportunity to reinvent yourself
47:11and reintegrate with the community
47:13big part of their repair plan huh
47:15understand the harm repair the harm
47:17all the voices not only in understanding
47:20the harm but
47:21in the repair plan okay ton
47:24more things but
47:29i'm taking it by faith that you are
47:32there
47:34um megan i'm gonna start my video
47:38why thank you hello and if other people
47:41would like
47:42you to have your video on the whole time
47:44i could have uh anyway
47:46it's good to see you megan
47:49so i turned it off
47:52um yeah if any of you have questions
47:56would love to just take whatever time
47:58here 10 minutes
47:5920 minutes whatever you'd like to do
48:01with some questions or comments on this
48:04story
48:05some of you i know are already teaching
48:06it maybe for years
48:08some maybe nuts maybe some of you have
48:09been to rwanda so anybody who
48:12thanks for coming on laura nice to meet
48:14you
48:15you know you're going to be in trouble
48:16when you come on uh hashem
48:19i'm really glad that you're with us this
48:21evening um
48:22and i'm not gonna really try to put you
48:23on the spot but any of you
48:26somebody want to break the ice and get
48:28us rolling here and i'd love to know
48:30uh what you what your day job is if
48:33you're a teacher
48:34or who you're teaching just before your
48:36comment or question
48:37so welcome maureen and timothy thanks
48:41tim we've met i feel like haven't anyway
48:44sorry go ahead
48:45who's who's going to lead us off here
48:49please am i pronouncing it right hashem
48:53nice to meet you please go ahead and
48:55unmute yourself and
48:56and uh what what's your day job good
48:59evening hello everyone um
49:00some of the folks here mr hensley uh uh
49:04miss miss forensic i'm i'm familiar with
49:06them as a frequent flyer here at the
49:08virginia holocaust museum oh nice
49:10um i had a chance to meet you a couple
49:13of years ago as
49:14mtf and um just been fascinated by your
49:17story
49:18my day job i'm a history teacher at
49:20albemarle high school
49:22um it is
49:26the sun has gone down so i'm breaking
49:29the fast it's ramadan so i'm about to
49:31eat so my question is this
49:33um the restorative piece
49:37is the thing that my students are having
49:41a hard time grappling with and
49:43even in admittance
49:47i have a hard time grappling with the
49:50understanding
49:51of that roof that that restorative
49:54piece so my question is
49:58how how
50:01did they do it right how how
50:06how is that something that
50:10is part of the other side of teaching
50:14that genocide right because i'm wrapped
50:16up my
50:17unit already okay and and and
50:21that is not something that i'm hearing
50:24during the nuremberg trials right
50:26right rwanda is fascinating in and of
50:29itself
50:29because that's the other side of it so i
50:31i guess my question
50:33again how how how
50:36was that the thing that that they they
50:39settled upon
50:41um thank you appreciate that and i and
50:43your candor there
50:44i am right with you with struggling i'm
50:47going to
50:47pull up here a picture of a couple of
50:49people i met in 2019
50:52we were there with a group of teachers
50:54again out of the community center
50:56building
50:57and uh these people were gracious enough
50:59to come together and share their stories
51:00some survivors some perpetrators and
51:03among that group
51:05was maria a survivor with her daughter
51:08she and her son sorry her husband
51:11had had said you know maybe if we split
51:13up you take the
51:14the boys i'll take our daughter we might
51:17have a chance of surviving
51:19maybe people won't be as hesitant to
51:21hide a small group or
51:22feed a small grouper it worked for her
51:24and her daughter not for her husband and
51:26sons
51:27and she would introduce philbert as this
51:29um
51:30amazing friend of the family every
51:32planting every harvest
51:33and i could say planting harvest about
51:3510 15 times because
51:37this is a journey of years which is
51:39really
51:40really important to understand and the
51:43reason i say it's a journey of years i
51:45mean she says
51:45he does things for me like my sons would
51:47have done and you know what my first
51:49response was well
51:51he was in the gang who killed her sons
51:54and so i'm like
51:55if he wouldn't have killed her sons
51:56they'd be here do that see i'm still
51:57stuck
51:58in 94. maria initially she told us no i
52:02didn't want anything to do with him
52:03you know we were working on a project in
52:06our community to build homes for one
52:07another
52:08and i tried to avoid him when i was
52:10going to the water point and everything
52:11like that
52:12but you know what a turning point was
52:13for me she says when he told me where my
52:16husband and sons were buried
52:19and and um man i think it's really hard
52:23for most of us to appreciate what that
52:25is some of us
52:26might have some experiences that come a
52:28little close
52:30but to not know so much of the story
52:34to how do you grieve what you don't know
52:37and and the what ifs that go on in your
52:39mind
52:40how do you process those what ifs when
52:43you don't know
52:44so this idea of learning the truth the
52:47idea
52:48that philbert she will she will go to
52:50his defense when she'll see how much i'm
52:52wrestling
52:53with philbert i mean i i'm i'm not being
52:56trying not to be openly hostile
52:59but and in some of my questions you know
53:01when he said he had no tutsi friends as
53:04a kid i'm like
53:04you know i'm kind of i was hard i was i
53:07was i was
53:08kind of asking some very direct
53:09questions to him and
53:11and um it's a much longer story but
53:14she'll say you know he kept coming back
53:17again and again
53:18apologizing and again you know what my
53:20first response was
53:21listen one is enough now just go away
53:24well
53:25in rwanda you can't just go away this
53:28little country this is your home this is
53:30your property
53:31and the country has as a country made a
53:33decision we are going to stay together
53:35so you just can't go away so what do we
53:37do
53:38we've got to have safety and then that
53:41safety
53:42could provide us with a habitat where we
53:45might be able to
53:47reframe the other and
53:50and so you have this process of years
53:54of of philbert coming and helping with
53:56the planting and the harvesting and
53:58her cow and all of these things and over
54:01time
54:02it and this isn't something that i would
54:04say is
54:06recommended for everybody i i think that
54:08forgiveness
54:10um at its most basic level is getting
54:12free of anger and bitterness
54:14okay and and i think that's a universal
54:16invitation because anger and bitterness
54:18is is is a toxin that can destroy us our
54:22relationships and everything else
54:24but the idea of then reconciling that i
54:27don't
54:27believe is necessarily universal but in
54:30this case it was
54:32so when you say how did they do it part
54:34of how they did it
54:35was the government providing us a secure
54:38habitat so
54:39safety and security and then
54:41opportunities for shared experiences
54:44and i don't know if your school does any
54:47kind of
54:47community service state high schools to
54:49work at we go out
54:50and help the community four times a year
54:53and man when kids and teachers were in a
54:55different environment whether they're
54:56raking leaves or whatever they were
54:57doing
54:58you saw each other differently this
55:00opportunity to reframe
55:02this this um statement that i gave
55:05earlier about one thing thinking this is
55:08kind of in step two of this process
55:10where we refrain the other
55:11and and we have to challenge one thing
55:13thinking defining people
55:15by the thing that bothers us the most
55:17that's how we define them by that one
55:18thing you see a mega hat you're like i
55:20don't need to know anything else you
55:21know
55:21a black lives matter sign in the yard
55:23that's all i need to know you know i
55:25know everything
55:25that one thing thinking and when we do
55:29um look at the neural side of this
55:32idea how we fire pathways and the more
55:34we fire certain pathways the more likely
55:36they'll fire in
55:37in all kinds of situations and
55:39circumstances
55:41and i i work on building pathways of
55:43gratitude
55:44starting with food and i find myself
55:46going across the bridge where i just
55:47paid fifteen dollars to go to new york
55:48and i'm roll 15 bucks
55:50and then a pathway fires in my brain did
55:51you thank the toll taker
55:53never would have thought to think that
55:55if i didn't already have pathways
55:57of gratitude for something easy like
56:00food so this
56:01idea of the of the power we have
56:04to choose if we are down in a pit
56:08like perhaps marie and philbert were
56:10doing making bricks
56:12for the homes you know that adobe brick
56:14story there
56:15and and they switch out and the next guy
56:17who comes in the pit
56:19is just released from prison and you're
56:21like oh just my luck i'm in the pit with
56:22the killer
56:23which is totally understandable you know
56:25and then your next thought might be
56:27we should have locked them up and thrown
56:29the k why in the world did we ever you
56:30know
56:31or you've started this habit of finding
56:34the good
56:35you started building these neural
56:37pathways in your brain
56:38so the more challenging the situation
56:40the more challenged i am to find the
56:42good
56:42and instead of saying great i'm stuck in
56:44a pit with a killer i find myself
56:46saying i'm glad he's here we can use
56:49this is hard work
56:50you know hey i wonder how his kids are
56:52doing i wonder if they told their
56:54friends that he had died
56:55and and because it was easier than
56:57saying my dad was in the genesis and now
56:58he's released from chris
57:00and you see this pathway one leading to
57:03greater polarization
57:04one to potential healing and restoration
57:08so this idea of bit by bit year by year
57:12an environment that is conducive towards
57:15this
57:15and then people like people like maria
57:20who are just they're they're like
57:22there's just one picture i love of her
57:23where she's she's like um hey hey hey
57:28it's possible you know there's light at
57:30the end of the tunnel
57:32those kind of people have a big part in
57:35in
57:36in this making it believable and maria
57:39just helped me so much to get free from
57:41a lot of my which i thought i dealt with
57:44before
57:44about rwanda but anger is that tricky
57:46thing that that can
57:48be throughout so much of my body so to
57:51speak
57:52and um maria you know when she put her
57:54hand on philbert
57:56she sees i'm wrestling she puts her hand
57:58on filbert's shoulder and she says you
57:59know
58:00it's wonderful to be part of making
58:02somebody beautiful again
58:04and filbert's beautiful and and i'm like
58:08no no i mean i'm not saying anything i'm
58:10just kind of melting down a bit
58:12maria invited philbert to her daughter's
58:15wedding
58:16and when i heard that i'm like what
58:18about the other family maria you know
58:20and i
58:20i really um i put maria where is that
58:23i put maria right in the middle and uh
58:25on the spot and i said mario did you
58:27have family who's angry
58:28and and she's like yeah but when
58:30philbert asked my daughter to be the
58:32godmother
58:33for his children his family was angry
58:35too
58:36so hashim this is another strategy for
58:38me that maria demonstrates
58:40if i stay all the time in the center
58:42from my perspective
58:44which i don't blame anybody who has
58:45suffered greatly
58:47for doing that i don't criticize and
58:49never would want to
58:50i never would want to talk about any of
58:52this in a prescriptive way
58:54i try to do it in a descriptive way but
58:57maria wouldn't stay in the center when i
58:59put her there
58:59and she stepped out and she put filbert
59:01in the center and she said but his
59:03family
59:04also is angry and i think that is one of
59:06the keys that maria's demonstrating to
59:09us
59:09is our ability to step out of the center
59:12and we need
59:13empathy we need support i don't expect
59:15somebody freshly wounded to get out of
59:17the center
59:18you know and actually i don't expect
59:20anybody to go to center except
59:21myself i put these expectations for
59:24myself
59:25i find myself angry frustrated um
59:28confused and i ask myself okay who's in
59:30the center carl i'm like
59:32oh looks like i am i'm just thinking of
59:35it from my perspective
59:36step out and and put put that person who
59:40just cut in front of you on the freeway
59:42in the center and instead of judging him
59:44as a maniac
59:45maybe he's on his way to the hospital
59:47maybe he just got word that his
59:48his there's a burglar in his home i
59:50don't know what's happening
59:52but i love this idea of instead of
59:54getting angry
59:55getting curious
59:59thank you appreciate that question nice
1:00:01to see you again
1:00:03and listen let's do something with your
1:00:05class sometime i love
1:00:07zooming with the students and we just
1:00:08it's so easy now before
1:00:10covet people are like ah the internet
1:00:13now we all know how to do it
1:00:14and so let's meet up again okay
1:00:17i'd love to thanks for coming this
1:00:19evening
1:00:22hi um laura right um
1:00:26i am a teacher i teach ap modern
1:00:29european history
1:00:30uh modern world history and i have a uh
1:00:33an elective on the holocaust and
1:00:34genocide and so we're currently talking
1:00:36about rwanda
1:00:38uh right now um and i also have two of
1:00:41my
1:00:42friends who went with you to rwanda uh
1:00:45seth altman and sandy renkin
1:00:48and so i really want to go to rwanda
1:00:51with you
1:00:51so one of my questions i have two one of
1:00:53my questions is are you going to have
1:00:55trips for teachers again
1:00:56in a oh absolutely okay we'll start
1:00:59again in 2022.
1:01:00okay great great to know and the other
1:01:03question i have is how is genocide
1:01:05the rwandan genocide taught in schools
1:01:07today in rwanda
1:01:10good good question um
1:01:12[Applause]
1:01:14you know they're really focusing on
1:01:17peace
1:01:17education and
1:01:20um my the best of my understanding
1:01:24right now in general
1:01:27it is still something that's handled
1:01:30like right now during the hundred days
1:01:32of commemoration
1:01:34i haven't yet seen a rwandan textbook
1:01:38on the rwandan genocide that's not to
1:01:40say it's not there
1:01:42could have come in the last few years
1:01:44and i'm just not up to date on that
1:01:46um but they started first with teaching
1:01:50more about the holocaust all the
1:01:52parallels
1:01:54and then um they will have like
1:01:58the kigali genocide memorial is
1:02:01huge in education initially they were
1:02:05bringing um
1:02:06students there a lot by the busload and
1:02:08then they realized too
1:02:10oh no no no we got to get our teachers
1:02:12in here you know and then when they go
1:02:14out
1:02:14and then they've even started having
1:02:16people traveling out to the schools
1:02:18young people have started from their own
1:02:21what they've learned high school
1:02:23students they call never again
1:02:25clubs where these kids are actually
1:02:27doing
1:02:29simple but but some very basic
1:02:31fundamental
1:02:32storytelling of the genocide in primary
1:02:35school
1:02:36and things so that idea of them teaching
1:02:38it has been
1:02:40has been another way of going forth but
1:02:42often it's still
1:02:43um it's it's often treated in uh
1:02:47special days and assemblies uh but i'm
1:02:50not sure
1:02:51yet and and that's really good i should
1:02:53actually know the answer to that i will
1:02:55i'll make an effort i'm actually going
1:02:57to talk with a group of uh
1:02:59rwandans we have a panel this weekend uh
1:03:02megan i'll send you the link to that if
1:03:04any of you want to hear some rwandan
1:03:06voices on saturday morning if you're
1:03:08seven o'clock here on the west coast 10
1:03:09in the east coast uh there's i'm on a
1:03:12panel there
1:03:13talking about hard decisions during the
1:03:15genocide they are reviewing
1:03:17the books i'm not i mean our book i'm
1:03:18not leaving so i'm not trying to do a
1:03:20book promotional thing
1:03:21but i'm excited that we have a panel
1:03:23with more people on it
1:03:24and uh one of them is has been involved
1:03:27in the education
1:03:28so i'll try to remember to ask that
1:03:29question myself this weekend
1:03:32thanks for asking you you i know you
1:03:34appreciate the massive challenge
1:03:36of having relatives family members
1:03:39in prison or in the in the mass graves
1:03:44a really difficult difficult
1:03:47journey to navigate
1:03:50thanks for the question laura does
1:03:53anyone else have any questions for carl
1:03:58other questions all right carl for a
1:04:00comment you know
1:04:01something if something kind of struck
1:04:05you a little differently
1:04:06i i'd like to think that i try to know
1:04:09what i'm saying but i'm always curious
1:04:11to know what people
1:04:12hear if there was something that you
1:04:14might
1:04:15afterwards say you know i haven't
1:04:17thought about that before
1:04:19or um i'm still not that one really has
1:04:23me still wondering i i would love to
1:04:26hear those kinds of comments
1:04:28too yeah well robin bridges in the chat
1:04:31said
1:04:31she likes your paradigm shift from good
1:04:33guy bad guy to harmful heels oh good
1:04:36glad that made sense
1:04:39yeah and i also i started to see
1:04:41connections to
1:04:43um when you were talking about kind of
1:04:44like reframing that other person
1:04:47right it's so relevant for today then i
1:04:49also think about
1:04:50the holocaust and really when you know
1:04:53when you start people always wonder like
1:04:56how do
1:04:56how do people become perpetrators right
1:04:59and that's when
1:05:00you start dehumanizing and not looking
1:05:03at someone as human it becomes easier to
1:05:05do and
1:05:06um in the book into that darkness when
1:05:09there was a journalist that's
1:05:10interviewing
1:05:12um i think he's the commandant of
1:05:13treblinka and she asked like how
1:05:15how did you do this like how did you
1:05:17kill you know children and women and
1:05:20men and he said i no longer looked at
1:05:22them as human
1:05:23you know it's that dehumanization of
1:05:25people so i definitely saw those
1:05:27parallels well
1:05:27and what i found to myself was the
1:05:30dehumanization of perpetrators
1:05:33which for some people is too early to
1:05:34talk about that i totally get that
1:05:36but but there needs to come a point
1:05:38where that is going on
1:05:40renee brown did a great podcast not long
1:05:42ago about
1:05:43dehumanizing and uh it was super
1:05:47practical in the way she talked about in
1:05:49our everyday things
1:05:50it's so easy to point to the planners of
1:05:52genocide as the
1:05:54examples of dehumanizing when there's
1:05:56things that i
1:05:58kind of do way too often unknowingly
1:06:01often
1:06:02that is that is minimizing
1:06:09any other questions or comments laura
1:06:13i'll go again um how healed is rwanda
1:06:16because you started off with like this
1:06:18wonderful future yeah
1:06:20thirty percent women and technology and
1:06:23yeah
1:06:23um so how i don't know how you like
1:06:26judge that or give a percentage
1:06:28exactly and i had a question about that
1:06:30yeah yeah
1:06:31um and by the way the parliament is more
1:06:33than 63 percent women
1:06:35the minimum is 30. but the parliament
1:06:37now with that minimum
1:06:38they've taken it and run and uh and it's
1:06:41really exciting
1:06:42um more than 70 of the population
1:06:46is either born after the genocide
1:06:49or was super young during the genocide
1:06:51and don't have
1:06:52actual memories of the genocide not to
1:06:56say because we know the
1:06:57multi-generational effect of trauma
1:06:59so not saying they're not impacted but
1:07:01that to understand
1:07:0370 that's a lot of people who
1:07:06who were not not again that they're free
1:07:08but that's
1:07:09that's another consideration in how
1:07:12healthy are they uh i have a good friend
1:07:16who just
1:07:17two years ago came out with a book i had
1:07:19to shift location
1:07:20this is a great read i think many of you
1:07:22would want it for your classroom
1:07:24it's called untamed and her name is
1:07:27celine
1:07:28uinesa 10 years old at the time of the
1:07:31genocide
1:07:32and she um the book half of the book
1:07:36is about untamed celine uinesa
1:07:41is about her survival um
1:07:44during the genocide as a ten-year-old
1:07:46the other half
1:07:47is about healing and um
1:07:51it is it is a super and not just healing
1:07:54i mean she doesn't just you know give
1:07:56you
1:07:57uh general statements she is that's what
1:08:00the cover looks like okay
1:08:02it's called untamed got her actually on
1:08:05the front with the backpack
1:08:07and um untamed beyond freedom celine
1:08:10uinesa
1:08:11and she just gets she gets really
1:08:14open and candid about spending time at
1:08:17the mental hospital and a lot of people
1:08:19are like
1:08:19why would you tell any and the same in
1:08:21america we would be reticent to admit
1:08:23something like that because of the
1:08:25stigma but the fact that she is
1:08:28she's so courageously and she is healed
1:08:31to such a degree that she knows the
1:08:33importance
1:08:34of being open about this and and
1:08:38and being an advocate for this that you
1:08:40see
1:08:41leaders like that coming out and
1:08:42speaking out if you flip the book over
1:08:44you'd see on the back cover a picture of
1:08:45her today
1:08:46and she is a very successful businessman
1:08:48she and a friend run up
1:08:50but like a headhunter when when you're
1:08:51um wanting to recruit executives for
1:08:54your company she runs this executive
1:08:55recruitment
1:08:56consultancy in kigali and uh so
1:08:59super successful businesswoman um which
1:09:02does give her
1:09:03that level of social capital to kind of
1:09:05cushion for the
1:09:06for the stigmas that are there you might
1:09:08say but not really it's it's really just
1:09:10raw courage on her part
1:09:12um and and so i would say that
1:09:16it is yeah it's something really hard to
1:09:19measure
1:09:20but you are finding people more and more
1:09:24talking about this in healthy ways
1:09:27and you know we're 27 years away
1:09:30and the government is still making very
1:09:33strong intentional efforts
1:09:35at unity and reconciliation unity and
1:09:38reconciliation
1:09:39they know they can't let up on this you
1:09:41know you'll appreciate this too as
1:09:43holocaust educators
1:09:44um oh bjorn what's his last name he
1:09:48works with reconciliation he's in
1:09:49arizona now
1:09:50he made this statement at a zoom
1:09:53a couple weeks ago you know you know the
1:09:56question of
1:09:57are certain things unforgivable nobody's
1:09:59talked about the holocaust without
1:10:00talking about that
1:10:02idea certain things unforgivable he put
1:10:04a new angle on that that i really
1:10:05appreciated
1:10:06he said i think some things are
1:10:09unforgivable for the first generation
1:10:14yeah wasn't that just that was just to
1:10:16me such an aha moment
1:10:18and for some it might even be the second
1:10:20generation because he works with third
1:10:22generation
1:10:23holocaust um survivor you know third
1:10:26generation children and uh
1:10:28students and and uh german and some also
1:10:32uh yeah uh and so this idea of not
1:10:37trying to just simply think that
1:10:40we're there we've got it no it's this
1:10:43journey that goes on and on
1:10:45and so i think for me you know some of
1:10:47the ways you measure that
1:10:50is just um
1:10:53that people are still on a journey and
1:10:55not kind of stagnant
1:10:58and i think stagnant could be a way to
1:11:00describe
1:11:01some of our periods in america
1:11:04right all right i think that might be a
1:11:08good place to
1:11:09to end here carl do you want to just
1:11:11share um
1:11:13maybe a little bit about your
1:11:14organization or if you're active on
1:11:16social media or where
1:11:17people can find out you know
1:11:20actually i should have a slide like that
1:11:24and uh i don't so i think the best the
1:11:27only thing
1:11:28i mean i did and i've redone all my
1:11:29slides lately okay should we just google
1:11:31you forgot to put this in here
1:11:33yeah world outside my shoes is the
1:11:37non-profit
1:11:38and we are as as i've talked about
1:11:40taking students to
1:11:41um students and teachers to rwanda we
1:11:44are
1:11:45um actively involved trying to support
1:11:47you in your classroom
1:11:48whether before of course we're doing
1:11:50assemblies and things but also classroom
1:11:52visits
1:11:52zoom visits uh this this um
1:11:56we will soon be making available online
1:12:00workshops
1:12:01for this uh pull it up right here where
1:12:05we were
1:12:06this hope based process for addressing
1:12:08injustice
1:12:10and so um and of course the 40-minute
1:12:13film
1:12:14about the genocide through the eyes of
1:12:16our family to kind of open up and enter
1:12:18there
1:12:18is another resource we make available
1:12:20any teachers who want a copy of
1:12:22the little book about the genocide i'm
1:12:24not leaving those three months
1:12:26we we send those to teachers
1:12:27complimentary happy to do that for you
1:12:29and the work you're doing
1:12:31um but that's kind of
1:12:34where we are now and the lion share my
1:12:37time is with
1:12:38um classrooms schools and we're doing
1:12:41this we've just started with
1:12:42professional development
1:12:44and so sometimes people professional
1:12:48development experiences are not always
1:12:49their favorite experiences
1:12:51and we're trying to um to
1:12:54have a really meaningful time pd with
1:12:58you
1:12:58whether it is your department or whether
1:13:00it's your school
1:13:02working through this because woven all
1:13:03through here are stories from rwanda
1:13:06primarily from the restorative journey
1:13:08of rwanda
1:13:11all right well thank you so much and
1:13:14thank you
1:13:14yeah no thank you so much this was a
1:13:16great conversation
1:13:18um and i have everyone's emails so i can
1:13:21share
1:13:21the video on youtube that's available
1:13:24for them to watch i'm not leaving and
1:13:26then any information carl like the panel
1:13:28this weekend that you would like
1:13:30us to send out please forward that and i
1:13:32can do that okay i'll try to remember to
1:13:34do that right now so i don't forget
1:13:36all right and okay my curiosity tim you
1:13:38are
1:13:39is it the beard or or
1:13:42you from from years ago when i was there
1:13:47oh man i'm not hearing you your
1:13:49microphone dagnabbit you're not even
1:13:50muted it doesn't say muted but i'm not
1:13:52here
1:13:52but that's why i thought i'm i don't
1:13:54real good remembering names and now i'm
1:13:56just was trying to get the face
1:13:57but you are the tim right i see the head
1:14:01nod
1:14:02it's good to see you again he is still
1:14:05there
1:14:05we'll have to catch up thanks for
1:14:07joining tim good to see you and the rest
1:14:09of you thanks so much for coming in
1:14:11megan behind the scenes um
1:14:15jewel like i said names paige behind the
1:14:17scenes page thank you
1:14:19and uh i hope we do cross paths again
1:14:21soon yes
1:14:23take care paige thank you everyone
1:14:24thanks so much all right have a good
1:14:26night thank you
1:14:27bye bye thank

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