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Carl Wilkens (2022) ""I'm Not Leaving" — Transcript

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0:04so you were here today talking to
0:06jamestown high school students yeah yeah
0:09that's that's terrific uh
0:12when this is something occurred in 1994
0:16and do you find that here we are in 2022
0:21does it resonate with
0:23oh
0:24my goodness i i was saying to leanne one
0:27of the teachers who organized the event
0:28this morning some of the stories that
0:31i've been telling from rwanda for
0:32literally for 18 years
0:35and the and the concepts what's behind
0:38this story you know what are some of the
0:40factors that work and stuff
0:42it's it's like written for right now
0:45whether we're talking about
0:47mass uh polarization political
0:50polarization and stuff um sometimes when
0:53i'm telling the story on the stage i'm
0:55like
0:55i bet some of these people think i just
0:57made that up for for now and it's and
1:00it's not i mean the stories are always
1:01evolving but um
1:04but it's yeah you you know the basic
1:06idea genocide stems from thinking that
1:08says my world would be better without
1:10you in it
1:12and that kind of thinking tragically is
1:14timeless
1:17very very localized here yes you know
1:21just we'll talk about that in a second
1:23so you
1:24did you grew up in an uh adventist
1:27family yeah very much i mean the church
1:31and the school the adventist school all
1:33through actually through college you
1:36know 16 years of the adventist tradition
1:40and one of those years i took out from
1:42college to africa is what really was a
1:45change point for me and the journey i
1:47got to volunteer for a year in south
1:49africa in
1:511978 so in the middle of apartheid and
1:55those that was the beginning i would say
1:57of kind of opening up from the cocoon of
2:00growing up in the adventist community to
2:03the much larger world
2:05so you're one of those pathfinders yeah
2:07you know about the pathfinders
2:10we have a small congregation here yeah
2:12yeah funny that's the code word that my
2:14wife and i used during the genocide we
2:16talked every day on the radio and
2:18whenever the militia would come
2:20to the um gate we were not saying the
2:23militias at the gate i would say oh i
2:25got to put everything away the
2:26pathfinders are here
2:28which i'm kind of embarrassed to say now
2:30because i didn't no negative reflection
2:32that's a great youth program but that
2:34was our code word so was that a uh kevin
2:37had that opportunity to go to south
2:40africa now this is unique you're so this
2:42would have been 1978 so you've been all
2:44of uh
2:46what uh 20 years old 20. i turned 21 in
2:48africa and and that's when i also you
2:52know i just fell in love with the the
2:54community the social structure the focus
2:56on community and and feeling like you
2:59can make a difference i came back from
3:01that year saying okay i'm going to be a
3:03shop teacher you know auto mechanics
3:05welding i'll come back then to africa
3:08didn't know where but you know whether
3:10it's irrigation or whether we're you
3:12know small engines for generators
3:15there's here's an opportunity to make a
3:17difference and that that really is what
3:19gave me direction
3:21so in the meantime between 1978 and 1991
3:24when you go back or go to rwanda you get
3:27married
3:28yep got graduated in 81
3:31got married a week later six weeks later
3:33moved to zimbabwe in 81. so we spent
3:36four years in zimbabwe and then two
3:38years in zambia then came back and got
3:41an mba
3:43and then it was actually 90 that we
3:45moved to rwanda had that shop teacher
3:48mba combinations kind of old school
3:51international development
3:54part of the religion of the adventist is
3:57mission work very much and so you was so
4:00you were you following you felt did you
4:02feel like you were following sort of
4:04that uh that lead the
4:07core belief yeah ever since i was a
4:08little kid reading stories about
4:10missionaries in africa the excitement
4:13and the adventure
4:14and for me
4:16being part of adra the adventist
4:18development relief agency building
4:21schools operating clinics that was
4:23living the dream for me you know feeling
4:25like wasn't so much about you know kind
4:28of some of the older stereotypes of
4:30missionaries and converting
4:33natives those old stories but it was
4:35about building schools operating clinics
4:38really partnering with the people to
4:40make life better uh super rewarding
4:44part of your core belief i believe you
4:46know yeah i can be obviously you'll
4:47correct me but it is not so you you
4:50proselytize but you don't you're you're
4:53serving
4:54everybody i mean
4:56yeah
4:57yeah i mean am i correct
4:59absolutely um in terms of
5:01you know adro is definitely serving
5:04everybody we're not talking religion or
5:06you know race or anything like that
5:08what's been interesting is post genocide
5:12my own uh thoughts about proselytizing
5:16or evangelizing or things like that have
5:18changed quite a bit because
5:21um
5:22there is this strong as you know within
5:24the genocide holocaust mindset there's
5:27this strong us in them mentality that is
5:30just so
5:31so corrosive and eventually so
5:34destructive and when i see now i think
5:37i'm probably hyper vigilant to us and
5:39them thinking and so often this concept
5:43that you know we have this truth or we
5:45have and we need to convince you and
5:47stuff like that i'm like
5:49that's not really what i understand the
5:52character of god to be
5:54and so i've definitely
5:57backed away from the idea that i need to
6:00convince people or quote evangelize and
6:03stuff
6:04i think you know i'm i'm here on the
6:06earth
6:07to love and serve and if people if some
6:10of that stuff seems attractive or makes
6:13sense and we all kind of have our source
6:16of
6:17inspiration and motivation we can talk
6:20about that
6:22but it's it's definitely for me
6:25uh moving away from more of the us
6:27mentality which is really divisive i
6:29think within religions much
6:32denominations much less religions and so
6:35i'm i'm probably a bit a bit
6:37oversensitive maybe or hypersensitive to
6:40us and them and recognizing how much
6:43really does unite us instead of huh so
6:45what's so different about the adventist
6:48or what's so different about these
6:49people it's like what do we share in
6:51common
6:52so when you roll into rwanda in 1990 the
6:56hutu and the tutsi tutsi
6:59this is the kind of hat field in mccoy's
7:01which has been ongoing for some time how
7:03did you integrate into that
7:05understanding of of that relationship i
7:08i didn't find it hatfield and mccoy's
7:12i often didn't know who was who
7:14and and then when you started you know
7:16as you're in a country new and stuff and
7:18you start to kind of get your feet and
7:19figure out a little bit of the the
7:21groundwork and stuff you're like well
7:23wait a minute you know hutus and
7:25tootsies are married all the time and
7:28they're doing business together and
7:29they're playing soccer together and
7:31stuff so really
7:33what is this division or what is this
7:36construct and while it's not perfect
7:40like no society is perfect i always say
7:42when you speak the same language
7:44you're going to church together you're
7:45doing business school and every you're
7:47going to fall in love so the story is i
7:49as i saw it and as has become even more
7:52clear to me even through the genocide
7:54was this is not a story of one group
7:57against another group this is really a
7:59story of political and that's where it
8:01becomes relevant today it's a story of
8:03politicians business people constructing
8:06a narrative
8:07with an enemy and anytime we can do that
8:11you know it better than most that we can
8:13construct a narrative with an enemy with
8:16an us and them thinking
8:18really
8:19based in blame like if i can just find
8:22one thing that we can pin on them
8:25then we get united and we're like we're
8:28gonna unfortunately in a genocide
8:30situation we're gonna eliminate them
8:33often because of like one thing so that
8:36one thing thinking
8:38is to me
8:39so much more
8:41damaging and dangerous
8:43than some of the other divisions we
8:45often come up with in terms of regions
8:47or religion or ethnicity so i i really
8:51go along with those um
8:53writers and and and you know students of
8:56rwanda who say that the planners of the
8:59genocide had to work hard to break the
9:02bonds between the hutu and tutsi this is
9:05not like somebody coming along and
9:07pouring gas on an existing fire
9:10no and not that it was perfect but but
9:12there was so much more in common and so
9:14much more i would say love demonstrated
9:17by marriage that somebody came along and
9:19worked hard to break these bonds as
9:22opposed to gas on the fire that makes
9:25sense it does and it
9:27as along with that consistent with that
9:29factually
9:30on the ground in early 1994 was of
9:33course was the plane yeah
9:35the shooting down of the plane of the
9:37president
9:38uh of rwanda and
9:41all of a sudden the media kicks in
9:43yeah can you explain a little bit about
9:44case somebody watches this what
9:46background yeah yeah for sure you know
9:49six months after we got there in 1990 a
9:52war began in rwanda it's it's kind of
9:54interesting we got there in 90
9:5728 years earlier was independence 1962
10:01and i especially like this year we're 28
10:04years out from the 1994 genocide and i i
10:07remember that like yesterday so i'm
10:08thinking when i got there in 90 there
10:10were had to be people there who
10:12remembered independence like yesterday
10:1428 years ago
10:16the violence that had happened at
10:18independence the privilege that the
10:21belgian colonizer showed to the tutsi
10:23people the discrimination
10:26many of the people fled at that time
10:28tutsi people some killed some hid by
10:30neighbors well those who fled
10:33they they i'm sure thought they could
10:34come home a week a couple months when
10:37things settled down they weren't allowed
10:38back
10:3910 20. finally 30 years later they got
10:42military training so we moved there in
10:44the spring of 90 in the fall of 90 this
10:47group of largely refugees or children of
10:50refugees attack mostly from uganda and a
10:54three-year war begins
10:56and so that three-year war is going on
10:58basically they want to come home the
11:00local government is like no you can't
11:02come back finally they get to the to the
11:04um
11:06negotiating table ceasefire the arusha
11:08accords summer of 93 will have a new
11:11government everybody will be part of it
11:13but we've got this small group of men
11:15and women who say no no no to share
11:17power is worse than defeat and they are
11:20the architects of the genocide so this
11:22new government that was supposed to
11:24start in december is delayed january
11:26delayed february march april the plane
11:28is shot down during all that time even
11:31about a year and a half before they had
11:33a radio station they were constructing
11:36their narrative the tutsi is the enemy
11:38they've attacked us three years ago
11:41they're always the enemy and that is
11:43going to come to this explosive point
11:47april 6 1994 president's plane is shot
11:50down it's the tutsis who killed the
11:52president get out set up a roadblock
11:55secure your neighborhood
11:56they're they're the enemy uh they've
11:59attacked us with guns the rwandan
12:01patriotic front they're within uh
12:04eroding you know who any tootsie or
12:06anybody married to a tootsie you know
12:08who they where their sympathies lie we
12:10got to get them before they get us and
12:12so
12:13the rwandan patriotic front picks up
12:15their guns again when ordinary people
12:17are the genocide starts they're being
12:19slaughtered and and extremists take over
12:22the government it's like a coup and now
12:24they're fighting the rwandan patriotic
12:26front and they launched this campaign to
12:29eliminate all the gen all of the tutsis
12:32you know what some people don't realize
12:34they see the killing which is horrific
12:36but they're they're so intentional
12:38they're so
12:39um determined to eradicate i mean i even
12:42think it's like archaeology in the
12:44reverse instead of discovering stuff
12:45they're they're going in the courthouse
12:47and destroying birth certificates
12:49property deeds um wedding certificates
12:53any evidence these people ever existed
12:56they're on this massive extermination
12:59campaign so a lot of people think oh the
13:01plane was shot down and kind of
13:03spontaneously no nothing spontaneous
13:06really hard very intentional hard to
13:10pull off i say it's hard to pull off a
13:11genocide
13:13sometimes i think people just think oh
13:14this stuff happens no it doesn't it's a
13:17relatively small group of architects who
13:20are behind this
13:21which okay i can keep going but let me
13:24just say this too
13:26i think to myself if a relatively small
13:29group was behind the architects of the
13:31genocide
13:32why couldn't there have been another
13:34group
13:35opposing and countering
13:38the ideology my world would be better
13:41without you in it that ideology and two
13:44groups really well positioned to do that
13:47the united nations two thousand five
13:49hundred soldiers already in country
13:52and they say eighty percent of the
13:54rwandans were going to church
13:56so the religious institutions in rwanda
13:59the un and the religious institutions
14:01are two massive organizations that i
14:04think could have stopped the genocide
14:07so
14:09you know
14:11so much of what you just talked about is
14:12called replacement theory
14:14and uh unfortunately that's a term that
14:17it hadn't played at all any place
14:19anywhere
14:20and again i don't want to jump ahead of
14:21the narrative
14:23but um
14:25so
14:26personally
14:27you are there you have a role and you've
14:30got a wife and you have three children
14:33and you have to sit down with is it
14:36barbara
14:37with your wife um teresa excuse me
14:39teresa yeah i'm sorry
14:41we'll edit that teresa uh and uh
14:45just say ah this is getting a fire is
14:48getting a little too hot here i need
14:51to save you guys how was that how how
14:53did that little conversation big
14:55conversation go
14:57you know
14:58the president's plane was shot down
15:00wednesday night
15:02and within an hour roadblocks were
15:05starting to pop up we're in touch with
15:07the embassy thursday the embassy at the
15:10american embassy thursday is saying okay
15:13while we have evacuation plans in place
15:15assembly points identified
15:18stay home keep your head down the
15:19rwandan patriotic front is going to take
15:22over the city within four days it'll be
15:24more dangerous to try to evacuate stay
15:26home keep your head down friday
15:29totally different message really
15:30everybody's leaving ambassador nobody is
15:33staying behind um we're going to leave
15:36saturday and sunday see how fast this is
15:38rolling
15:39saturday sunday will be the last convoys
15:42out
15:42uh decide are you going with the
15:44saturday or sunday convoys oh
15:47and don't bring any rwandans
15:50you know we'll be stopped at roadblocks
15:52we're driving south to burundi we'll be
15:54stopped at roadblocks any rwanda doesn't
15:56matter their ethnic whatever their id
15:58card says
15:59that'll be a
16:00you know it'll it'll
16:03be a challenge it'll compromise the
16:05security of the convoy
16:07which i understand but in our house we
16:10had this young lady who lived and worked
16:12in our house and loved on our kids and
16:14anybody who has kids and
16:17sees somebody who loves on your kids
16:20that's like fast track to family
16:22and the rwandans had treated us with so
16:25much kindness and and courtesy and and
16:29really privilege
16:31and so my wife and i are thinking you
16:32know we can't bring them with us we're
16:35quite certain from what we've just
16:37learned in the last few days i would
16:38talk on my little local high frequency
16:41radio that we used for our work around
16:42the country rwanda is a little country
16:44huh like rhode island or something
16:47i
16:48learned in my
16:49this killing is going on via the radio
16:51in the northwest and the east over to
16:53the west by lake kivu it's all around
16:56the place
16:57if we leave pretty much certain this
16:59young lady and it happened so fast plane
17:02shot down wednesday night the young man
17:03who was at our house for the watchmen
17:05within an hour roadblocks up he didn't
17:07even have time to go home and they both
17:09had the tutsi id they both were marked
17:11as the enemy
17:13so my wife and i are in the bedroom
17:15we're talking we're praying and we're
17:17like
17:18you know this wasn't a new idea
17:20evacuation coming we'd been through a
17:22three-year war evacuation had been part
17:24of a conversation before but now of
17:26course was very real everybody's leaving
17:29the ambassador and everyone but we're
17:30like
17:31how can we leave these two people in our
17:33house to be killed
17:34and so we thought you know
17:37maybe we can use this privilege
17:40that the rwandans give foreigners if i
17:43stay here with these two people maybe we
17:46can save them and you unfortunately
17:50although it had its own other dynamics
17:52my mom and dad were there
17:54and so i'm actually two years older now
17:56than my dad was then three years i think
17:59and and um
18:01so that made it really possible i mean
18:04theresa could have done it by herself
18:05taking the kids out by herself but
18:07having my mom and dad i can't think of
18:09anybody i would have rather had but my
18:10dad there so my wife and i thinking
18:14maybe it'll be for two weeks this
18:16probably won't be longer than two weeks
18:17we don't know that all of those 2 500
18:20almost all of the u.n soldiers will
18:22leave
18:23we don't know more than a million people
18:25will be killed that it'll go on for
18:27three months but what we know is two
18:29people in our house may be killed and if
18:31i stay maybe we could use that privilege
18:34and they did survive
18:36and and the story goes on but
18:39it wasn't you know teresa initially
18:41would tell you she didn't think we had a
18:43choice but when i said well wait you
18:44know we're private citizens the
18:47embassy can't tell us what to do
18:50and and um
18:52when she realized that
18:54she was completely on board you know i i
18:57think
18:58it's hard to see this through anything
19:00other than the lens of family if you
19:03start seeing the people in your house as
19:04family
19:06that's a whole different lens so it
19:07wasn't like it was like part of our
19:10family could go to safety and part of
19:12our family couldn't
19:13so what are we going to do for our whole
19:14family theresa okay i'll take the kids
19:17to safety you stay with this part of the
19:20family here in the house
19:22probably three weeks we'll be back
19:23together again that was our naive
19:26thinking at that time as a foreigner
19:29with a passport
19:31there did you deem yourself
19:35safe because you weren't obviously a
19:37tootsie but yeah simply a person who
19:41had in the employ
19:43people who heard
19:44the t or whatever it was yeah you know
19:47so many times too it's not necessarily
19:50the reality that matters it's the
19:52perception
19:53and um and there was definitely a
19:56perception of you know america and you
19:59know that you maybe have this certain
20:02privilege or you have this government
20:04behind you or something but we had been
20:05in africa long enough and outside
20:07america long enough to understand that's
20:10not the reality in fact i signed the
20:13embassy when they when i told them i
20:14wasn't leaving
20:16they said okay after trying to convince
20:18me different ways to leave they said
20:21okay you need to sign on this paper that
20:24you've refused the help of the us
20:25government to leave rwanda
20:28and so
20:29i pretty much had cut cut ties with the
20:33government in terms of in terms of you
20:36know that kind of support
20:39the other thing too
20:41playing a shot down wednesday night
20:43thursday night a gang comes to our gate
20:46we don't know we're putting the kids to
20:47bed in the hallway we wanted we had a
20:49brick house and the interior walls were
20:51made out of brick didn't think about it
20:52much until that time when you're trying
20:54to get as many brick bricks between your
20:56kids and the bullets as possible
20:59and neighbor ladies come out and address
21:02and actually
21:04get between this gang and our gate they
21:06tell us the next morning there was a
21:08gang here intent on killing you and your
21:11family
21:12and i still don't know why that that
21:14kind of cause like you said we're not
21:16tootsie we're not the target
21:18there was rumors this is my best guess
21:21rumors that the belgians were involved
21:23with shooting the plane down maybe they
21:24mistook us
21:25as just white foreigners for belgians
21:28but what's so important to me obviously
21:32is these neighbor ladies courageously
21:34stood up and just started telling
21:37stories about our family doing acts of
21:39kindness
21:40started talking about our kids playing
21:42with their kids
21:43and somehow well the way i explained it
21:45to the kids at the high school this
21:46morning i love this i got this drawing
21:48of a brain and you know down here in the
21:50stem is the fight flight part and up
21:52here is the good place on the frontal
21:54lobe compass empathy creativity and
21:56stuff these guys
21:58set on killing us no doubt down here in
22:00the fight flight and these ladies start
22:02telling stories which at least for the
22:05leader if not for everybody got them
22:08somewhat out of that fight flight to the
22:10good place they make a decision and they
22:13turn away
22:14and so
22:16there was definitely a certain amount of
22:17privilege that we experienced as
22:19americans or as foreigners or as simply
22:22not being tootsie
22:24but there was also
22:27times in the crazy chaos-ness that i was
22:30targeted
22:31and so
22:32often when i think about safety and
22:34security and during that time i think
22:37about relationships you know a guy
22:40actually offered me a handgun a rwandan
22:42friend offered me a handgun and i said
22:44no no thanks i i didn't know how to use
22:46guns anyway but i just felt like the my
22:51especially as i got out and started
22:52traveling around and working with
22:54orphanages
22:56traveling with a gun would give a
22:57different message
22:59than traveling unarmed
23:01so your
23:03wife
23:04father mother three children get in your
23:08van are escorted out of
23:11where you are in rwanda heading towards
23:13burundi
23:15and
23:16working with i assume the ambassadors
23:19yeah actually the ambassador was in that
23:20convoy it was it was the next to the
23:24last there was one unofficial convoy
23:26after that but it was the last official
23:28convoy out of rwanda down to burundi
23:31where theresa thought she would remain
23:33with the children until um until you
23:36know a couple weeks and she'd come home
23:38my mom and dad actually were scheduled
23:40to fly home in a couple of days so they
23:42got to burundi then got a flight to
23:44nairobi and got on the regular scheduled
23:46flight and came back to the states
23:48but my wife she'll tell you she didn't
23:50want to go any farther than she had to
23:52she didn't want to lose contact
23:54communication burundi got too crazy
23:56because too violent because burundi is
23:59like a twin to rwanda in many ways and
24:02so the the violence in rwanda was having
24:04an impact on burundi so she did move the
24:06children to nairobi kenya and that's
24:09where she spent the remainder of the
24:11remain the three months of the genocide
24:13in nairobi kenya but fortunately that
24:16little radio with wires on our on the
24:18ridge of our house dipole antenna
24:22sent a signal and we could talk a
24:24thousand miles every day sometimes a lot
24:26of static but we were able to talk every
24:28day during the genocide on the radio
24:31which was an enormous i mean the best
24:33part of my day well interestingly enough
24:36for just a part of the serendipity of
24:37the jackson center sitting in the seat
24:39you are currently in
24:41uh
24:42in 2008 i believe
24:45we had ambassador robert kruger from
24:48burundi
24:49and he was the ambassador at the time
24:52all this was happening no kidding and so
24:55in a sense though you may not know the
24:57name or you have ever met him yeah he
24:59was there interesting and he wrote a
25:01book on burundi and genocide
25:04and spoke very eloquently about the
25:07definition of genocide he just passed
25:09this past year so just a kind of a small
25:12environment uh
25:14so your wife is is safely out of rwanda
25:18uh you have opportunities to um
25:22because of somewhat of your privilege to
25:24even interface with the prime minister
25:26yeah who was a hutu yeah and in order
25:29you know situations which you wanted to
25:32preserve and save
25:33tootsies so talk about that that
25:37little story where you are literally in
25:39the government office
25:41wanting to meet the prime minister the
25:43man who's making this all happen yeah
25:46sure didn't want to meet him but i
25:48needed to it
25:50you know after three weeks of being
25:51trapped in our home
25:53the government the genes the government
25:55is taken over by extremists okay a coup
25:57has happened and they've killed the
26:00prime minister the president killed in
26:01the plane crash they killed the prime
26:03minister no question about who killed
26:05the prime minister put in their own i
26:07call bogus prime minister um
26:10they made an announcement this
26:12mean
26:15and and they put in um they made an
26:17announcement on the radio
26:19from the 24 7 curfew they'd been
26:21enforcing for three weeks if you have a
26:23if you have a you know legitimate reason
26:25to be out of your house come we'll give
26:27you a travel permit and that was
26:29interesting time one of the people in my
26:31house with me pastor
26:33surayan banga kira
26:35was
26:37the financial officer for the adventist
26:39church in the country of rwanda and i
26:42remember a conversation with him saying
26:44pastor there's got to be something we
26:46can do
26:47more than just here at the house and he
26:50says well if you're going to do anything
26:52outside the house you've got to build a
26:54relationship with the people in power
26:56the people who are doing genocide so
26:58that relationship will be zen begin with
27:00colonel renzaho the colonel in charge of
27:03the city the extremist who took over the
27:05government quickly moved out of kigali
27:07because of the violence to a little
27:09safer area in the town of giderama was
27:12called gidorama at that time and so i'll
27:15begin to have a relationship with this
27:17colonel in that he'll give me a travel
27:19permit he'll actually tell me some
27:21orphanages that i can help
27:23he'll um help me with a truck in
27:25transport because i need to start right
27:27away i find it the biggest orphanage
27:29kids are dying from diarrhea they just
27:31need water a little bit of medicine and
27:34so i'll i'll actually have i'll store
27:36i'll buy stolen powdered milk from
27:39thieves and stuff and i'll store it in
27:41this colonel's office well towards the
27:43end of the genocide
27:45of course we didn't know it was the end
27:46we didn't know when it would end but
27:48towards the end of june
27:49um casiqua elise one of the rwandan men
27:53i worked a lot with and i were bringing
27:54water to this orphanage surrounded by
27:57about 50 guys with machine guns other
28:00weapons
28:01they had said the day before we know you
28:03have tootsie children here we're coming
28:05empty the place we're coming back
28:06tomorrow we don't care who's here we'll
28:08kill them all
28:09i don't know about that i show up with
28:11casiqua and about five minutes later
28:13these guys materialize all around us
28:16about 50 of them with their assault
28:17rifles
28:18and
28:20the the leader comes in green mercedes
28:22station wagon cloud of dust in the
28:25parking lot gets out i try to greet him
28:27shake his hand he brushes right past me
28:29goes to the young brother of the
28:30director
28:31where's demas the director come to find
28:34out they want to kill him first
28:36and then they'll kill everybody else
28:39but here's the problem for him is this
28:42foreigner in the middle of the parking
28:43lot
28:44and and it's a very
28:47interesting dynamics going on i have
28:49some sort of official connection with
28:52the colonel in charge of the city he's
28:54given me a travel permit he has sent me
28:56to this orphanage to help them which a
28:58lot of people when they're thinking
28:59about you know we often think good guy
29:01bad guy okay doing genocide obviously
29:04bad guy why'd he send you to an
29:06orphanage with tootsie what what you
29:07know because all of a sudden we start to
29:09see the reality of life there's no such
29:12thing as good guy bad guy and and we're
29:15all this complex mixture any case that
29:19episode will end with
29:21some police officers coming and showing
29:23up leaving the orphanage in their care
29:27um and and going to back to the
29:30colonel's office even though i knew he
29:32wasn't there and that's when his
29:33secretary said well no the colonel you
29:36know her boss is not here but the prime
29:38minister's here on a surprise visit i'm
29:40like
29:41that's terrible and and she's like no no
29:44no ask him for help
29:46and that just how
29:49you couldn't have said something more
29:50bizarre or more
29:52absurd
29:53then ask one of the three guys on top of
29:56this top of the pyramid of this genocide
29:59to help you stop a massacre of kids
30:02i asked him
30:04he stopped it i think that's another
30:06story his motives what he wanted to do
30:08with those kids and everything else but
30:10but the point for me
30:13is one
30:14you often don't know what powerful
30:17allies you might find in the group that
30:19you call the enemy and and i'm sure some
30:21people think that's not ethical and
30:23maybe we could have an interesting
30:24conversation about that but the point is
30:28yes these people must be brought to
30:30justice but that day wasn't the day
30:32they were in power and and while i think
30:35he used those children eventually with
30:37his plans his his genocidal government
30:40was was crumbling french had arrived in
30:42the western part to set up quote safe
30:44havens i think he wanted french in the
30:46middle of the country to prop up his
30:48government in the middle and and maybe
30:50these orphans would be an excuse for
30:52safe haven i don't know his reasons but
30:54that idea of uh
30:57the most unlikely ally that day still
31:00boggles my mind but you know even more
31:03perhaps more important
31:05is that secretary you know so many times
31:07like we think we got to talk to a
31:09senator or we got to talk to these
31:10different people
31:11people who are there behind the scenes
31:13they know what's going on and sometimes
31:16they're our best allies
31:18in in these listening to local people i
31:22can't i can't get that message not only
31:24across the people but for myself to
31:27your your your best hope of something
31:31sustainable
31:32is going to come through a partnership
31:36ideally where the local people are the
31:38lead partners and in that kind of thing
31:41there was no question this lady was the
31:43lead so all of this is really the uh the
31:46old concept of situation ethics
31:49could be you know where you're caught in
31:51a position where there is probably not
31:54a good answer but
31:56uh sometimes you don't debate it until
31:58years later in the middle of it
32:00you're like how are we going to survive
32:02exactly and so there are so many
32:05situations like that but this is seems
32:07like one of them yeah did your faith at
32:09that point get tested
32:12oh yeah i okay in a nutshell at the
32:15beginning i'm kind of making a deal with
32:17god i'm like look god you wanted me to
32:19stay you keep me alive that should be
32:21the deal after about two weeks i'm like
32:24this isn't working that doesn't feel
32:25right i don't
32:26know this doesn't make sense and i
32:28realized i was i was really motivated i
32:31mean that deal was really based on my
32:33fears
32:34and i think a deal
32:36brokered on fears we already in trouble
32:39i decided at that point that you know
32:42what i don't want i don't want my wife
32:43to be a widow and kids to go up with a
32:45dad but i'm gonna just trust
32:48and that god will take care of my wife
32:50and my kids that's not i'm not gonna try
32:53to make a deal
32:55and you know
32:56the faith journey has really been that
32:59it's been a journey over the years i
33:01mean at the beginning i look at how kind
33:02of
33:03simple and that idea well you keep me
33:06alive i stayed and then what does it
33:08look like when you trust or what does it
33:10look like when some of the things you
33:12learned as a kid
33:14you're not i mean you know it's not like
33:17you pray for people and they're
33:18protected you pray for people and you
33:20still see them with the bible over their
33:22head being massacred and you're like
33:23well what about all those promises in
33:25the bible you start getting challenged
33:27with a lot of those things about about
33:29faith and you
33:30for me
33:32my my
33:34my whole idea about god shifted so much
33:37during and after the genocide from an
33:40idea of asking god to do something
33:44to the idea that i think
33:47god works through people and their
33:49choices much more than independently
33:52doing a miracle
33:53which in many ways to me makes a lot
33:55more sense it's a lot more empowering
33:58because if i'm just sitting around
33:59saying okay come on god fix that come on
34:00god fix that what's my role besides just
34:03trying to direct the magic
34:06miracle working god that's ridiculous
34:09but when i recognize
34:11i can have a part of this see people say
34:14where's god in the genocide and i
34:15totally get that i think that's a valid
34:17question
34:18for me though the question is a little
34:20more nuanced where are the people who
34:23claim
34:24to be
34:25in love and
34:27motivated by the love of god during the
34:30genocide that to me is a much more
34:32relevant and a much more actionable
34:35question than simply where's god you
34:38identified early on two groups
34:40which uh were deficient in their
34:43response to this the united nations yeah
34:46and
34:49uh
34:52was there a
34:53i know the united nations and and is
34:56just it's one of the dark spots in the
34:58united nations the whole world
35:00history and uh the united states was
35:03part of that big part you can't ken
35:07and clinton all of those people have
35:08variously over time
35:11apologized and just you know was very
35:14remorseful it doesn't help the situation
35:16that occurred on the ground and
35:17hopefully lessons were learned
35:20did you have opportunity
35:23once you were able to leave you seen
35:27you saw the genocide ends i mean there's
35:30carnage there's 800 000 people there are
35:33mass graves there are
35:35finally united nations creates an
35:37international tribunal
35:39uh for rwanda uh where you had a chance
35:43to meet u.s officials or
35:45u.n officials or just saying hey i was
35:48there
35:49just in case you're curious this is what
35:51happened
35:53not many opportunities to do that i was
35:57renzaho the colonel in charge of the
35:59city his attorney contacted me we
36:01actually met in uh for several hours in
36:03the airport in nairobi
36:05years ago
36:06um
36:07i think that
36:09he soon recognized that you know he
36:11maybe thought that i could testify on
36:13behalf of the colonel the good that the
36:14colonel did during the genocide i think
36:16he recognized that the prosecution would
36:18say hey we're not debating any good this
36:21guy did he's being prosecuted prosecuted
36:23for the genocidal crimes that he did and
36:26they would actually use
36:28his position and the power
36:30that made it possible for him to do good
36:33to demonstrate yeah but he also did the
36:36he was in control you know so
36:39i was never called in on that um you
36:42know i was i was pretty frustrated uh
36:44for years and it's still a certain level
36:47of frustration that they that they
36:49didn't have the trials in rwanda and i
36:53understand some of their arguments of
36:55you know feeling like they wouldn't get
36:56a fair trial or anything like that but
36:58there's also i think
37:00a kind of a racism that's involved with
37:04that story too we
37:06we don't necessarily need to go there
37:08but what one of the things that two
37:10pictures i want to paint for you real
37:11quick one of the
37:13mid
37:14upper level leaders not top but upper
37:17level leaders was caught and tried in
37:19rwanda and you know to see this man who
37:22for
37:23months more than a year before the
37:25genocide would travel around
37:27mercedes
37:29fancy clothes suits and stuff speak to
37:32thousands of people in an auditorium
37:34with hate speech
37:36and the message of us and them and
37:38blaming the tutsi to see him in a simple
37:41prison uniform in a wooden chair even
37:44though he didn't confess but for people
37:46to see that that accountability
37:49was huge and they were denied that with
37:52it being in arusha
37:54what what i found interesting though
37:57was you know with my years of
37:59frustration that you know all the money
38:01that was invested there and then the
38:03lack of funds available for prosecution
38:04within rwanda all the different stories
38:06but what i found really interesting
38:08talking to some folks in the rwandan
38:10judicial
38:12probably just three or four years ago
38:14explaining my frustration there and and
38:17uh instead of just saying yeah yeah that
38:19was all wrong and stuff they said they
38:21they had
38:23uh
38:23more
38:24underst
38:25they had a very nuanced approach to it
38:29and the challenges instead of saying
38:30yeah we could have done it here and they
38:32stole it there
38:33he started to identify some of the
38:35challenges that would have been faced in
38:37doing it in rwanda
38:39and and
38:40that idea you know today in our
38:43polarized society it's like anything you
38:46say
38:47that kind of mirrors or would reinforce
38:51the position of the other
38:54we're gonna back away from it we'll
38:55never even any common ground or things
38:57that we understand we're afraid to do
38:59that because we think it'll weaken our
39:01position i feel like rwanda feels itself
39:04in a strong enough position that they
39:05can
39:06acknowledge
39:08some of the argument on the other side
39:10and and still not feel like they have
39:13been minimized or they are
39:16they're not i think they're in an
39:17amazing position right now when you look
39:19at their economic growth when you look
39:21at the number of people
39:23um you're i'm sure you're aware
39:25rwanda is one of the first if not the
39:28primary
39:31example or place where the rank and file
39:34people have been
39:36brought to some form of justice
39:38holocaust all these other places you
39:40know top leaders mid-level but not the
39:44rank and file
39:45more than 250 000 people they had more
39:48than 1.9
39:50million cases
39:52of the ordinary people in these
39:55community courts called gachacha in
39:57rwanda twelve thousand community courts
40:01if you put pins on the map in rwanda for
40:02all these the map would be just a map of
40:04pin twelve thousand community courts
40:07where community members are the
40:09facilitators slash judges where they're
40:12empowered to hear the confession of
40:15those who want to
40:17and then say you know i think this
40:18person is not safe to go into the
40:20community service program that was there
40:24they need to go back to jail the whole
40:26program in rwanda of uh i mean i i kind
40:30of moved away from my frustration on the
40:32you know the things that didn't happen
40:34for rwanda
40:36and and just moved into amazement at how
40:39rwanda in a restorative process
40:42made healing a priority over justice not
40:47in place of justice because i think
40:49justice is necessary part of healing as
40:52i understand it the restorative model
40:54says we got to understand the harm
40:56and then we need to make a repair plan
40:59and part of that repair plan is justice
41:03but our end goal is not justice our end
41:06goal is healing and that i think is a
41:10formula for breaking the cycle of
41:13violence because we all know just
41:14bringing somebody to justice doesn't
41:16necessarily break this up we talk about
41:18it being a preventative you know some
41:20sort of
41:22what's that word
41:23hopefully it won't happen again um
41:26but but this idea of healing on the top
41:29of the pyramid
41:30justice is part of it i think there's a
41:33lot to learn
41:35on a national level
41:37as well as for me
41:39i'm pretty i grew up in a whose fault
41:42who's to blame they'll get punished okay
41:45don't do it again
41:47and we don't we don't repair anything
41:49rwanda i think is giving us an
41:51incredibly powerful model not without
41:53problems but incredibly powerful model
41:56of all the voices speaking
41:58and at least as many as we can possibly
42:02bring
42:03understanding the harm making a repair
42:05plan you know when people hear that
42:07somebody who did genocide is building a
42:09road or doing radical terrorists and
42:10they're like sounds like a slap on the
42:12wrist to me which in a punitive model it
42:15would be it would be but in a
42:17restorative model our priority is not
42:20our top end goal
42:22is not
42:24justice retributive just it is
42:28it is restorative healing and and that
42:31that calls for some sacrifices which are
42:33really hard to make and why i think some
42:36restorative practices will never be
42:38fully embraced by people one reason not
42:41everybody's interested in collaborating
42:43but another reason is it's so hard i
42:45don't know how many generations it will
42:47take to change our thinking from a
42:49transactional punitive way
42:52to more of a transformative
42:55healing
42:56pathway and i think unfortunately those
42:59pathways often are not
43:01parallel or even together
43:03given your model
43:06of what has happened in rwanda
43:08a restorative justice model
43:11how do you reconcile that with paul
43:13kagame's kind of action against the uh
43:17hotel rwanda
43:19uh notable um paul paul
43:22thank you yeah for sure um i was i was
43:25in that hotel four or five times a week
43:27during the genocide i never saw him once
43:30or at least that i recognized him
43:33i'm sure he was there i have no doubt
43:34that he was there but from my
43:36perspective and i think most of people
43:38you talk to her in that hotel the
43:40security of that hotel was really about
43:42a small handful of u.n soldiers who were
43:44there and you know those
43:47while there were 2 500 before
43:49not all of them somewhere under 300 shy
43:52of 300 stayed by
43:54general delaire henry adiajo from ghana
43:57his assistant
43:59with some very courageous soldiers who
44:01stayed and saved thousands of lives make
44:03a powerful argument that if all 2500
44:05would have stayed they could have
44:06stopped the genocide so one of those
44:08small pockets of those just shy of 300
44:11u.n soldiers was that hotel
44:13so
44:14first off
44:16the story is is not correct from the
44:18beginning as as it's a one-man hero who
44:21is
44:22providing safety at this hotel i think
44:25it would have been an incredible
44:26educational tool if the movie would have
44:28been made as it happened with this
44:31handful of largely west african un
44:34soldiers and and the ability they had to
44:37provide a safe haven there
44:39what a tool for teachers and everyone
44:41else
44:42from that though initially i was ready
44:44to give the movie a pass because
44:47you know it's hollywood and we want to
44:48just let people know and it'll be the
44:50opening door and they'll if they're
44:52interested they'll learn more and
44:53they'll learn the real story but then
44:56when i saw how he began to use that
44:58platform i was on an email list for
45:00years of his and it was like every email
45:04after another this is wrong this is
45:06wrong this is wrong everything and there
45:07was nothing good according to him
45:09happening in rwanda and i was traveling
45:12back there and i'm like there's amazing
45:13things happening here
45:15and so the fact that um he then went on
45:19not just from emails and stuff but to
45:22actually
45:23gath they've gathered evidence and he
45:25openly he openly says you can hear the
45:28recording on youtube
45:30we've tried all means possible to change
45:32the government in
45:34rwanda we failed
45:36now we have he didn't say all means
45:37we've tried all peaceful i think or his
45:39words are democratic i think peaceful
45:41means possible to change now we have to
45:44use all means necessary to change the
45:46government so he's an outspoken enemy of
45:50the government of rwanda and honestly so
45:53many people in a in a very simplistic
45:55way they think paul kagame is the
45:57government of rwanda and he's not rwanda
46:01has incredible examples of
46:03accountability and transparency in
46:05governance
46:07incredible examples of
46:09decentralizing government and putting
46:11the power into the hands of the people
46:14so it's a very from my perspective
46:17narrow simplistic view to simply say
46:19paul kagame is the government of rwanda
46:22or his they like to use the word um
46:24regime is one of their favorite words
46:27when i see um the
46:30leadership that did away for example
46:32with the death penalty some experts said
46:35you'll never restore peace in rwanda
46:36without the death penalty well with
46:38president kagame's leadership they did
46:40away with the death penalty
46:42the equality and gender equality and the
46:44role of women in rebuilding peace that
46:46rwanda is such a more nuanced picture so
46:50when
46:51he was
46:52captured
46:54in the way he was captured and stuff
46:56um
46:57i'm
46:58i'm not
46:59i'm not ready to throw all of my time
47:02and energy in
47:04to the legality of his capture
47:07i think he had
47:11a fair trial which of course is
47:13debatable by many people's terms but it
47:15would have been much more
47:17i think
47:19valuable
47:20and stuff if he would have continued to
47:22attend but as you probably know he quit
47:25attending his own trial halfway through
47:28and
47:30rwanda has always been open to anybody
47:32who wants to come and see observe what's
47:34going on excuse me visit him in prison
47:38all of those things were there and so i
47:40think that there was a very emotional
47:42response to a perceived hollywood legend
47:47that was to me
47:50understandable but was not the right
47:53picture he was tried with a dozen other
47:55men who are working to overthrow the
47:57government of rwanda and when i look at
47:59that and i'm like 28 years later you see
48:02the level of peace you see the level of
48:04increased health care of education
48:07opportunities and economic opportunities
48:09in a country that has now become
48:12a refugee they've got at least more than
48:15six refugee camps from all the violence
48:18of the surrounding countries people are
48:20come to rwanda to be safe now and you
48:22see all of the safety security progress
48:26gender equality interest in the
48:28environment and stuff and and we're not
48:31just like some people try to say trying
48:33to throw somebody out of power
48:36we're trying to derail
48:38an incredibly powerful journey in so
48:42many areas
48:43restorative justice being one of them
48:46that um i think unfortunately gets gets
48:49narrowed down to just oh one man and
48:51he's a dictator and
48:53and it's just
48:54while there are challenges and it's a
48:56different kind of democracy than the
48:58world has ever really i think seen and
48:59some people wouldn't even use that word
49:01you can have those conversations but i
49:03see people sleeping safely at night i
49:05see people finding education for the
49:07kids i see i see people
49:10okay they're not very good friend is
49:12right now in india rwandan friend
49:15getting a transplant they're not ready
49:16at rwanda's level to do kidney
49:19transplants but they've got an agreement
49:20with the government of india things are
49:22available to people that have never been
49:24available before
49:26in in a rate i mean they're making cell
49:28phones they are shoot electric cars and
49:31motorcycles there's just all kinds of
49:33progress but even more than on the
49:34technical side is what i would call the
49:37social progress that's being made
49:40bit by bit there's still people who are
49:43angry and understandable gacha for them
49:45was a joke they they can give you all
49:47the problems with it and i i understand
49:50i don't necessarily agree but i
49:52understand but then there was so much
49:54healing that has happened through that
49:57process i'm like show me a better way
50:01so
50:02it's not a curiosity the ictr
50:05occurs and one of the
50:08persons tried and pled guilty was gene
50:13companda your buddy
50:15does it ever dawn on you you kind of
50:18in order to save people you had to kind
50:22of
50:23uh
50:25beg
50:26assistance
50:27from somebody of that nature who got his
50:31deemed just reward uh is is does that
50:35strike you at all i mean do you ever
50:36think about that i mean here is it
50:38you're pled guilty there is life
50:40imprisonment
50:42and yet as in order to accomplish what
50:45was deemed appropriate uh you you had to
50:48do what you did
50:51obviously i thought about it but never
50:53with any serious question yep no i you
50:57know
50:58you are you are in the heat of the
51:00moment you are surrounded by these guys
51:02with machine guns i mean for years
51:05peter when i would tell that story i
51:07would get knots in my stomach and i was
51:09so glad that i finally
51:13went and saw a counselor maybe six years
51:16after the genocide i still had knots for
51:19years later because i never talked to
51:20him about the potential of
51:21re-traumatizing yourself you know and
51:24and the difference what i'm learning now
51:26the difference between remembering and
51:28reliving
51:29two very different experiences
51:32and and so but in all of that journey um
51:36no i i you know you're in the middle of
51:38that
51:39and you just kind of went from one step
51:41to another on that particular day i
51:43didn't know what we were going to do
51:44until the
51:46lieutenant and about six police officers
51:48showed up
51:49then i went to the police camp because
51:51he wanted me to go and try to get
51:52reinforcements i tried didn't know what
51:54to do i finally found a guy at the
51:56police camp i had known before the
51:57genocide kind of another interesting
51:58side story he's like wilkins you're
52:00still here and i'm like yeah and i'm at
52:02the orphanage and works around he tried
52:04couldn't get help i go to the office of
52:06the colonel
52:07and you know you're just kind of going
52:08step by step and then the secretary says
52:11ask the prime minister you just you go
52:13step by step but you're driven by
52:15desperation
52:16and so in the end when he stops that
52:19massacre
52:20you're just overwhelmed with the
52:22gratitude that they're not killed and
52:24and it doesn't at all
52:26you know put you i i i hesitated often
52:30in telling the story of even using the
52:32word ally with kambanda because it just
52:35seems so wrong
52:37you know that that just
52:38seems messed up
52:40but in the in the moment and this is one
52:43thing that really helped me a lot
52:44samantha powers book chasing the flame
52:47sergio uh viewer i always slaughter his
52:49last name but sergio from the un
52:51he's there busy uh working with the un
52:53repatriating people back into cambodia
52:56from vietnam part of cambodia is still
52:58com controlled by the khmer rouge and
53:00the u.n is like no sergio you can't talk
53:02to them they're genocide people you know
53:04they committed genocide he's like we're
53:06we're returning families farmers to that
53:08area we've got through the back door he
53:10goes around and this line out of the
53:12book just gave me so much
53:14sense of
53:15peace and and that that kind of this is
53:18messed up idea
53:20brought some order to it he said today
53:23they would not be brought to justice but
53:25today they're in power and
53:28they will be we will work tirelessly to
53:31bring them to justice but today they're
53:33in power we've got to deal with that
53:36reality today and talk
53:39we could go on and have a really
53:40interesting conversation about
53:42afghanistan and america's unwillingness
53:44to talk with the taliban years ago when
53:47right after 9 11 and where we ended up
53:50at the end of all the years there in
53:52terms of
53:53not going to talk or negotiate with
53:55terrorists or so this whole idea of
53:59being able to maintain communication and
54:02then sometimes
54:03it'll it'll yield some unimaginably
54:06powerful not always
54:08but the potential i think is something
54:11the potential for somebody for everybody
54:13not somebody potential for everybody to
54:15do something kind and compassionate is
54:17something i never want to underestimate
54:20and i and actually i don't think he did
54:22it out of kindness and compassion to be
54:24honest but but the potential
54:26still stands you tapped into an agenda
54:29which uh though not articulated was
54:32there yeah i think so he had an end game
54:35if you were this would be another step
54:38so
54:40you have
54:41from your experiences and then going
54:43back and forth to rwanda and experience
54:46like no other i mean your life journey
54:48of i'm not leaving
54:50uh is one which resonates today 2022
54:56and you see it playing out in ukraine
54:58you see it playing out in a lot of
55:00situations where this simply against all
55:03odds
55:04uh
55:05the the the justification continues um
55:09do you ever pause and kind of reflect
55:11and say
55:13that i've been placed on this earth for
55:15a reason
55:16i mean is it did you ever get to that
55:18kind of you know high 10 000 foot
55:21approach thing
55:23given what happened given that you're
55:25not
55:25dead and you're not a martyr and your
55:27story is not being continued by your
55:30family but by you
55:32through this process
55:34uh that you know there's a god-given
55:37reason for you to have this
55:39bully pulpit
55:42never really thought of it as a bully
55:44pulpit
55:45um but you
55:46know this morning at the high school
55:49here in town
55:50a kid said to me nobody ever asked me
55:52this before that's what i love when i'm
55:54talking with high school students
55:55they're bringing out new stuff
55:56did they did they pay you big for what
55:58you did
56:00like i just started laughing i'm like no
56:02i mean we're on this missionary salary
56:05but i got i've been paid so big time by
56:09the rwandan people they're their hearts
56:11of gratitude and and being part of
56:13something you know when we talk about
56:15the genocide it's so easy to focus uh
56:18the 1994 genocide against the tutsi so
56:21easy to focus on the horror and
56:25loss and we need to we're never going to
56:27ignore that i hope never never ignore
56:29never forget
56:31however to bring about sustainable
56:33change is not the horror and the
56:35violence i don't think that does that i
56:37think it's the people who stand up
56:39against it those examples of that
56:41courage and and as we share those
56:44stories with students like this morning
56:46at the high school and they they you
56:48know they're up around afterwards and
56:50with their questions and you know what
56:53about you what about your anger but was
56:55there a turning point for you in between
56:58anger and bitterness and and some sort
57:00of healing you know a kid is just
57:02they're asking you that this auditorium
57:04full of kids and you have this
57:05opportunity to say well yeah it's an
57:08ongoing journey right now and talk about
57:1021 years later meeting the leader of the
57:13killing squad who was surrounding us at
57:15the orphanage and the anger 21 years
57:18later angered to the point of feeling
57:19like vomiting kind of anger and how that
57:23ongoing journey you recognize
57:26hanging on to anger and bitterness is
57:29this poison that that still gives the
57:32perpetrators access almost unregulated
57:35access to my heart and my thinking my
57:38mind
57:39definitely can impact my health and then
57:41you start saying you know what
57:43getting free from anger and bitterness
57:45is not about
57:46who you're angry and whether they
57:48deserve it it's about me and in my case
57:51it's about my grandsons i've got these
57:53perfect little boys who are my grandsons
57:56now i do not want my anger and
57:58bitterness to to influence them and
58:01their lives and so when you have
58:03opportunities to talk about things that
58:05important to talk about moving from a
58:08punitive approach to a restorative
58:11approach which we're beginning to see in
58:12our schools i mean some schools it's
58:14more than 10 years others are just
58:15waking up i was
58:17outside of buffalo yesterday and their
58:19district next year is moving towards a
58:21more restorative approach to discipline
58:24in that district williamsville up there
58:27and
58:28you see those things and you recognize
58:30we get to have part of it we get to tell
58:32part of rwanda's story we get to
58:34introduce people to that story in rwanda
58:38those are incredible opportunities that
58:41i just feel really grateful for and i
58:44mean
58:45the story would be going on and it would
58:46be told and it would be shared in many
58:48other ways if i wasn't around but i'm
58:51just super grateful that i have that
58:53part i mean kids say why aren't you
58:55cynical you know i was in colombia huh
58:58six years seven years ago and they're
59:00talking about farc coming out and being
59:01reintegrated in the country there you
59:03know 75 years of the violence and
59:05kidnapping and murder and those kids
59:07there high school seniors are saying to
59:08me
59:09we we find it hard to understand what's
59:12happened and is happening in rwanda but
59:14you why aren't you cynical and and being
59:17able to talk to students
59:19about this strategy of finding the good
59:22i'm not ignoring the injustices and the
59:24harms in the world but but our brain
59:27naturally goes that direction negative
59:29sticks like velcro they say positive
59:32slides off like so being intentional
59:35about finding the good when we take
59:37teachers to rwanda i tell them
59:39first visit to the kigali genocide
59:41memorial it's going to be so potentially
59:44soul destroying this is horrific stuff
59:47so every morning every evening one of
59:49you is going to facilitate a finding the
59:50good session you're going to talk about
59:52something beautiful you saw today
59:54something inspiring that we saw today
59:56because if we're not intentional about
59:58that
59:59this this fight against injustice and
1:00:01harm can easily burn us out and destroy
1:00:04us so i've got to
1:00:07okay i'm on a little rant here but i've
1:00:09got to i've got to prioritize the beauty
1:00:13and the good
1:00:15over the injustice and the harm in terms
1:00:18of
1:00:18spending time taking a break from the
1:00:21news
1:00:22right now i am not comfortable with my
1:00:24reaction to the ukraine
1:00:27because each time i try to go to those
1:00:30stories i find myself just falling to
1:00:33pieces and i'm like i thought i had a
1:00:35lot of this processed you know i thought
1:00:37i would i thought i could go there or or
1:00:40right now the to gray region in the
1:00:42northern ethiopia and i go in and i
1:00:44listen to the stories and i speak to
1:00:46american ethiopians and man i just find
1:00:49myself again at times just really
1:00:51losing my footing and and i have learned
1:00:54tools to re-center and to try to keep
1:00:58you know
1:00:59this good and and keep that ahead of you
1:01:02but it's um if i'm not intentional i
1:01:05keep a gratitude journal if i'm not
1:01:07intentional about writing down new
1:01:09things at least three new things every
1:01:12day to exercise those pathways in my
1:01:14brain it's hard to navigate through
1:01:18this
1:01:21platform you say that i've been given
1:01:23now but when i am and most of the time
1:01:26i'm able to stay in that positive
1:01:30finding the good mood and um
1:01:33you know there's times like anybody else
1:01:35you get tired and you're like
1:01:36ah i think i'm not gonna but
1:01:39spending time especially with the
1:01:40students
1:01:42i just
1:01:43i just love the opportunities and i
1:01:45think they're connecting the dots and
1:01:46while
1:01:48in many ways i see our country
1:01:49polarizing more and more i also see a
1:01:53lot of really brilliant young men and
1:01:55women who are examining these stories
1:01:57from the past and what's happening right
1:01:59now even third graders you know i'm
1:02:02zooming 90 minute zoom with third and
1:02:04fourth graders it's a long time those
1:02:06kids had such great questions come in
1:02:08from recess they write in their journal
1:02:10hmm
1:02:11looks like
1:02:13what's happening in america now is like
1:02:14the seed and what happened in rwanda was
1:02:17the whole watermelon
1:02:19and i'm like
1:02:21where is this kid gonna get to as they
1:02:23look at this and they begin to put
1:02:25together the pieces and and really
1:02:28challenge this um
1:02:30us and them mentality that's such an
1:02:32easy framework for us to
1:02:34to adopt and live with
1:02:38i don't let you go without you've been
1:02:40in buffalo you've been in williamsville
1:02:41you're here in jamestown you're in
1:02:43western new york and certainly a week
1:02:46and a half ago a horrific thing occurred
1:02:49at tops market
1:02:50and with that was an 18 year old who
1:02:53talked about something called
1:02:54replacement theory
1:02:57replacement theory not too dissimilar to
1:02:59what maybe some of the hutu were
1:03:03media blasting out against the tutsi
1:03:06and
1:03:08the reaction community wise is certainly
1:03:11anger bitter
1:03:13all that stuff
1:03:15do you see
1:03:17in that type of thing where
1:03:20uh
1:03:20of even things like a forgiveness
1:03:23aspect
1:03:25to
1:03:26uh
1:03:27your theory would would be
1:03:30ever applicable or is is this is dude
1:03:34are you able to see beyond what the the
1:03:37right here right now 10 people dead
1:03:40others injured
1:03:42and and and somebody who's got
1:03:44advocating a theory which is not
1:03:47him alone replacement theory
1:03:51is there an analogy here
1:03:54your mind too there's no there's there's
1:03:57all kinds of parallels i mean that that
1:04:00basic idea that i
1:04:02put forth to the kids this morning that
1:04:04i put forth to kids for 18 years
1:04:07genocide stems from thinking that says
1:04:09my world would be better without you in
1:04:12it
1:04:14i it's very easy to see that and apply
1:04:17it to others
1:04:19what's not so easy is to see it and
1:04:21address it in myself
1:04:23and i think that's what that's one of
1:04:26the key things that i hope
1:04:28when these tragedies happen it's so easy
1:04:31especially for those of us farther
1:04:33removed who did not lose family members
1:04:35and and we're not you know friends and
1:04:38we're not
1:04:39directly impacted
1:04:41like it impacted the community there in
1:04:44in that neighborhood in buffalo
1:04:46particular
1:04:49how quickly or how willy and willing am
1:04:52i to do some serious self-examination
1:04:55and my own us and them thinking
1:04:58the other thought that comes to mind and
1:05:01addressing that and i know i've got that
1:05:02in my mind and so one of the things that
1:05:05i'm that i'm trying to to do to rewire
1:05:08my brain and i'm big on neuroplasticity
1:05:11and the ability to rewire the brain that
1:05:13gives me so much hope that gives me a
1:05:15framework to believe that people can
1:05:17change
1:05:18and so in my own rewiring process i am
1:05:22working on this concept i'm calling
1:05:24empathy first
1:05:25it's so easy to be defensive first or to
1:05:29be judgmental first or to be even
1:05:32exclusive first and this idea of you
1:05:35know am i spending time here in the
1:05:37fight flight part of my brain or how
1:05:39much time can i spend and live in the
1:05:42good place in the frontal lobe where
1:05:43there is potential for empathy and
1:05:45creativity and and
1:05:47pranks on your friends and stuff like
1:05:49that
1:05:50and what do i do
1:05:52that helps me recognize when i'm down
1:05:55here and helps get me up here what are
1:05:57those practices so that i really can
1:06:00have a first response of empathy you see
1:06:03when we hear these stories on the news
1:06:05or we watch these broadcasts it's so
1:06:08easy to move into judgment and well this
1:06:10shouldn't or that and and and quote
1:06:12problem solving and and i'm trying to
1:06:15tell myself stop stop just listen
1:06:18just listen
1:06:20what what what do i hear what how can i
1:06:23practice empathy if i'm constantly
1:06:27looking at things from my chair my
1:06:29perspective it's really hard to get out
1:06:32of my chair and put somebody else who's
1:06:34different from me or at least i think in
1:06:36ways it's different from me and try to
1:06:39see it through their eyes
1:06:41and that's what i was trying to do
1:06:44especially when you know i knew i'm
1:06:45coming here to buffalo and then that
1:06:47tragedy happens is how can i just shut
1:06:51down
1:06:52the judgment the fix it stuff
1:06:54long enough to listen because if we
1:06:56don't have if people who have
1:06:58experienced loss like that do not
1:07:01experience empathy boatloads of empathy
1:07:04then any kind of repair plan any kind of
1:07:08reconciliation or healing is potentially
1:07:11even counterproductive
1:07:14until we've just had this and i don't
1:07:16know honestly how long is the empathy
1:07:19period in this journey to try to because
1:07:22eventually i'm not letting go of problem
1:07:24solving absolutely not but i think i
1:07:28don't spend enough time and i have a
1:07:30hunch that i'm not alone
1:07:32in the empathy part of the journey
1:07:35empathy first and then
1:07:38listening and in rwanda's case it was
1:07:42the people themselves who were able to
1:07:45speak in these community courts people
1:07:47learned the truth and it was the
1:07:49community who facilitated it it was the
1:07:52place in the same community where the
1:07:54confessions made and it's that same
1:07:56place in the community where people
1:07:57started talking
1:07:59we're not going to have a cut and paste
1:08:00from rwanda to buffalo or anyplace else
1:08:03but there's concepts and principles in
1:08:05this idea that everybody's voice has to
1:08:07be heard but i don't want to tell a
1:08:09victim that the perpetrator's voice
1:08:12needs to be heard
1:08:13until the victim has just been
1:08:16soaked and saturated with empathy
1:08:19because that's why i say empathy first
1:08:22because when we start talking about
1:08:23healing and reconciliation without
1:08:25adequate empathy or without safety
1:08:28so what are we going to do to really
1:08:29establish safety don't talk to me about
1:08:31restorative practices until it's safe
1:08:33and that was a big deal in rwanda
1:08:37restoring safety in the in the country
1:08:40sleeping at night knowing your kids your
1:08:42spouse is not going to be taken in the
1:08:44middle of the night so those kind of
1:08:46foundational stones of community safety
1:08:50empathy really big part of the
1:08:53conversation before we move to that next
1:08:56step understanding the harm
1:08:58long time really what is it to
1:09:00understand the harm i mean my heart is
1:09:02broken as i hear about this guy who goes
1:09:05and and helps people with their i know
1:09:07what it's like to just in an airport
1:09:09have a carry-on that doesn't have wheels
1:09:11well big first world problem for me huh
1:09:14but what about for the families carrying
1:09:16groceries and this guy given his time to
1:09:19do that for people you know that the
1:09:21lady who
1:09:23her little girl was always knocking on
1:09:24this grandma's door every time they went
1:09:26past it and now grandma's been killed
1:09:30how do we how do we really spend time to
1:09:32understand the harm part before we would
1:09:36go to the repair plan so i do believe
1:09:39there's a lot of inspiration
1:09:42in rwanda's story and there's a lot of
1:09:45concrete framework and strategies in
1:09:49rwanda's story but they're not going to
1:09:51be cut and pasted but i the way i see it
1:09:55it starts with empathy
1:09:57then trying to understand the harm
1:10:00then looking at a repair plan
1:10:03i am so thrilled you paused to have us
1:10:05talk today and learn about thanks for
1:10:08the opportunity i'm really happy to be
1:10:09here at the jackson i'm looking forward
1:10:11to the tour afterwards mary be here uh
1:10:14about the whole i'm not living so that
1:10:16concept is one which you applied to
1:10:19rwanda
1:10:21and that you did not leave a situation
1:10:24and i'm also thrilled that you're not
1:10:26leaving i'm not leaving this message and
1:10:29this this that you have that you
1:10:31continue this and so well thank you on
1:10:34behalf of the jackson center and all
1:10:35that we do here you are just such a
1:10:38living example of uh
1:10:40uh mr restorative justice i you know
1:10:42thank you thank you very much appreciate
1:10:45it and it's one of the things i love
1:10:46about this work people think oh you
1:10:48you're you're just always genocide
1:10:50holocaust and
1:10:52how depressing and like no you don't
1:10:54know the amazing people i get to meet
1:10:56and work with and the amazing students i
1:10:58feel like the fortunate one for sure

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