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Carl Rogers Counsels An Individual On Anger — Transcript

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0:00In his first interview, he realized that
0:02the self he
0:06This is the second interview with a
0:07young man who reports he has leukemia
0:10but is in a state of remission.
0:13In his first interview, he realized that
0:15the self he had at age seven was a very
0:18precious self
0:19and that social expectations caused him
0:21to lose it.
0:23He also approached the feelings of anger
0:26he has felt about what has been done to
0:28this self and to him.
0:30But he's not yet expressed his anger.
0:33Now the second session begins.
0:39Okay.
0:41What do you want to start this morning?
0:44Well, I don't know. I was I was thinking
0:46that
0:48when we when we talked earlier about the
0:50the anger Mhm. I've been thinking a
0:52great deal about that. I've thought a
0:54lot about what you had to say about
0:55that.
0:57You know,
0:59and I'm not sure that uh
1:03that I really don't want to be angry.
1:06You know, and I'm not sure if anger
1:08being angry now is a part of the process
1:11and I've got to do that, but I'd like to
1:14I guess my um
1:17I guess
1:18my mind uh academically or something,
1:21you know, and something other than
1:22emotion or whatever like would like to
1:24tell me that I'd like to uh
1:26to not be angry and to skip over that
1:28part if that's a part of the process,
1:30you know.
1:32But I'm not sure I can do that, you
1:34know.
1:35Your mind says you don't cool it. Don't
1:37don't get into uh
1:39strong emotion. For sure. It almost
1:41seems like that that
1:43uh
1:44whatever is happening in my environment
1:46or whatever happened in my environment
1:48is pulling me into again
1:50uh
1:51that kind of a trap, that kind of a
1:53system that I don't particularly care
1:57you know, if you know what I mean. I
1:58think I get that, but you
2:00your mind is taking the place of the
2:01system and saying no uh
2:05play it right, do the right do the
2:06proper thing. Right. But some other part
2:08of you is saying
2:09yeah, but there's some anger there. For
2:11sure. For sure.
2:12anger there. Right.
2:13It's it's almost like in this country
2:16and I've always felt like this, you only
2:17have about two options, you know, when
2:19you deal with race.
2:21Uh you either have to be you're either a
2:23racist or you're you're an anti-racist.
2:25racist. And that doesn't really seem to
2:26be the kind of thing that I you know, I
2:28don't really care to be an anti-racist,
2:30if you know what I mean. Mhm. anymore.
2:33Uh
2:34and I don't want to be a reflection of
2:36any other any of any other larger
2:37society at all.
2:39I really don't want to to do that.
2:40to get in touch with what's going on in
2:43you. Yes, sir.
2:44Not some label or other. For sure.
2:48I think that I could probably trust that
2:50a lot better than than than trusting
2:52what's happening or what has happened.
2:55And um
2:56and when I think about that, when I
2:58think about all of that, you know, that
3:01things that we talked about I I I think
3:03that um
3:05that's worse than the leukemia. Wow.
3:08You know, I know that may sound very
3:10strange or whatever, but a lot of things
3:12have been strange. Mhm. Mhm. You know,
3:15since this time and and what has
3:16happened to me didn't just start
3:19when I found out that I, you know
3:22was going to die, kind of thing.
3:25Let me see if I understand that, that
3:26you feel as though
3:27um
3:30what the culture and people and so on
3:31have have done to you it's really caused
3:34you more suffering than the leukemia. Is
3:35that what you're saying?
3:37I think so. I think so. And to some
3:39extent that that would
3:41that is my like for instance
3:45you know
3:46you know, I don't know what would happen
3:47if I had a
3:48died or if I if I will or whatever, but
3:50I certainly know what's happening now
3:52and what happened. Mhm.
3:54You see? Mhm.
3:56And to some extent that kind of
3:57leukemia, that kind of
4:00deterioration of the body is the same
4:02kind of thing that happened to my mind.
4:04Mhm.
4:04And um Mhm.
4:07You know, it's
4:08what the culture did to you was give you
4:09a cancer of the mind.
4:11Yeah.
4:12I I I I really I think I really want to
4:15say that and I really want to um
4:18And I believe it. You know? And I guess
4:20that part of me that's that's my culture
4:23or you know, it's a part of the total
4:24that's saying that
4:25it's not all that good to be angry, you
4:28know?
4:29Because militancy is frowned upon or or
4:31whatever, you know? But I guess I'm
4:33using militant militant in my sense
4:34because of it's
4:36it's just traditionally, you know, when
4:38when blacks become angry they're they're
4:40not angry, they're militant.
4:41Mhm.
4:42You know what I mean? I know.
4:44Another label. Mhm. For sure. For sure.
4:47For sure.
4:49Yeah.
4:50And I can get it and there's nobody that
4:52I can put my finger on, you know, that
4:53person that started the whole thing,
4:55that process, you know, because that
4:57would probably be a lot better for me,
4:59you know, then I probably would would
5:00try to
5:02to do to do that person in.
5:05Yeah, if you could if you could pin it
5:06on one person
5:08then your rage would be justified
5:11and you could really get after that
5:13person.
5:14Mhm.
5:15But how do you know but how do you blame
5:16somebody else that's sick?
5:18You know?
5:19And I think that people that do that to
5:21other people or at least it when it was
5:23done to me
5:24um they're really sick, you know?
5:27And here I am, you know, it trying to,
5:30you know, I don't know if it's
5:31forgiving. I don't know if I'm sounding
5:33confused or whatever, maybe you know,
5:35but
5:37trying to accept their sickness,
5:40you know? Mhm. And at the same time, you
5:43know,
5:44I really haven't had the opportunity to
5:46let anybody accept mine. Mhm. Or maybe I
5:48haven't given it to them, but Yeah,
5:49maybe I haven't given it to them. Right.
5:51That's what I sense is going on
5:54now that you feel
5:56there's so many reasons why I should
5:58really shouldn't uh
5:59express my anger. I'll I'll talk about
6:02all those reasons.
6:05For sure.
6:08I don't know really.
6:10You know,
6:11if
6:13maybe I'll just be angry one day.
6:15And maybe I'll really feel better or
6:17whatever, you know, and and I when I
6:19when I when I smile I I'm uh
6:23you know, I I'm smiling, but
6:25there's a lot of and I'm sure
6:28you know that there's a lot of anger
6:30there, you know, but it's not my nature
6:32to be angry. Mhm.
6:36Not my nature to be angry, but I feel
6:37angry.
6:38Yeah. Um um uh
6:42So, I hear you explaining and explaining
6:43that uh
6:45uh
6:46it's not my nature to be angry. It's
6:47just that I am angry right now. For
6:49sure.
6:51For sure. And to try to be angry in a
6:53productive I don't know how you be angry
6:55in a productive way, you know, in terms
6:57of It's like now when I what
6:59when I respond
7:01to people, you know, if when you
7:03encounter people, you know, whether it's
7:04in the street whether it's in a
7:06professional situation or or whatever,
7:10you know, that people send out certain
7:12messages.
7:13And
7:15no matter what they're saying or
7:16whatever, there's certain kinds of
7:17messages that I'm getting.
7:19You know, it's saying that hey, you
7:21know, that isn't for me kind of thing,
7:23you know?
7:24And as before, you know, I'd like to
7:26work with that and write it like to try
7:28to communicate without alienating people
7:31or whatever, but now, you know, I'm
7:32ending up saying, you know, like hey,
7:34that's a bunch of crap.
7:35You know, don't don't don't tell me
7:37about the way that I should do it or or
7:39give me all that non-verbal stuff about
7:42uh
7:44you're saying that I'm okay, but I by
7:45nonverbally saying, "Hey, you know,
7:47you're really not okay, you know." And I
7:48don't want to hear that kind of stuff
7:50anymore.
7:52I get what you're saying, and I also
7:53feel quite strongly that I want to say,
7:56"It's okay with me if you're angry
7:57here."
8:02But I don't, you know, it's hard to know
8:04how to be angry, you know.
8:05I'm I'm I'm not saying you have to be
8:06able to say, "It's okay with me." Mhm.
8:10If you feel like being angry, you can be
8:11angry.
8:13You really believe that?
8:14Damn right.
8:37Not sure how to respond to that at all.
8:40You know.
8:42Because a part of that anger is, you
8:44know, the the hurt. And maybe if I'm
8:47maybe what's happening is is that if I'm
8:49if I become angry
8:51and I really let it hang out,
8:53that I really will see how hurt I am.
8:56Mhm.
8:56And um
8:58I you know, that just came to me as you
9:00were talking.
9:00Mhm. Mhm. That, you know,
9:04I think
9:04Perhaps at a deeper level you're afraid
9:06of the hurt that you may experience if
9:08you let yourself experience the anger.
9:10For sure.
9:11Mhm.
9:13Really? Mhm.
9:16Um
9:22This I get you know, I keep getting
9:23these blocks, you know, these you know,
9:26when I come to something like that, you
9:27know, because
9:29you know, to me that's a revelation and
9:31I'm not really sure where that uh
9:36risking being angry, I guess, or
9:38something like that, you know. Mhm.
9:40Losing control, maybe. Yeah. You know.
9:59I really do get that that
10:01this this realization that maybe what
10:03I'm most afraid of is the hurt that I
10:05might experience.
10:10Makes you more
10:12cautious about whether you should
10:14whether you should or could really let
10:15go of the of the anger.
10:21I really now know, I think, that
10:23It's a risk. Right. And it's
10:27you know, I hadn't really thought about
10:28that before and Mhm, it's real. Yeah,
10:30it's uh
10:32I guess I would be, you know, I'd reme-
10:34I'd really would admit openly that I'm
10:36hurt. I I said
10:39that I've that I've been hurt, and I
10:41think you know that I I feel I've been
10:43hurt, but
10:45to really to show that, you know. To
10:47show it, and I guess to let yourself
10:48sort of
10:51experience it that
10:55that I guess would be difficult.
10:58Yeah, I I don't know. It It's It
11:02It's as scary, I think, as the
11:03possibility of
11:05that I had before, more than before,
11:08about dying.
11:09You know. Mhm. Mhm. And maybe, you know,
11:13just I was really scared because of the
11:15symptoms, you know, of you know, not
11:16being able to walk and not being able to
11:18see and and things like that, you know.
11:22And having to depend on somebody, you
11:23know.
11:25And for God's sake, you know, having to
11:28show somebody that I'm that I'm hurt.
11:29Mhm.
11:30And how, you know, how can I trust that
11:32to somebody? You know?
11:34Um
11:35It seems like a horribly big risk.
11:38Yeah, it is.
11:39Seems to be getting bigger and bigger
11:41every talk.
11:45Suppose I really exposed to somebody the
11:47fact that I'm
11:49deeply deeply hurt.
11:52That in a sense would be comparable to
11:54having to be dependent on someone when
11:56you can't walk or something like that.
12:00Right.
12:05Yeah.
12:06I'd like to just to say it's my track my
12:08condition.
12:09I try to answer one way out of it, isn't
12:11it?
12:13But that isn't really acceptable to me
12:15now because I I I I
12:18I feel that. I feel like that I have to
12:19express that. I
12:21that hurt or whatever, but you know, I
12:22can say that. You know, what I know
12:24right down here, you know, that I'm I'm
12:26saying that and when I say it, you know,
12:27it kind of keeps something down here,
12:29you know.
12:30You're saying it from here up. For sure.
12:33For sure.
12:36I don't know how to do that exactly or
12:38whatever.
12:43It's like I don't drink a lot, you know,
12:44because I don't really want to but
12:46experience that kind of um
12:49you know,
12:50alcohol to me is a depressant anyway.
12:53And um you know, that's about the only
12:55thing I would really like to get out.
12:57To really get out, you know, maybe
12:59saying, you know, like I love somebody.
13:03I gave of myself. I did the help the
13:05best I could and it wasn't good enough.
13:08You know, and
13:11you know, demand on top of demand and
13:13everything like that, you know, it's
13:14just
13:16you know, you know, it's it's like
13:19that I'd like to be able
13:23Did I I said this yet the other day or
13:26when I was talking to you that I'd like
13:27to be able to
13:31to say that yeah, I was screwed over and
13:33I got hurt and everything else like that
13:35or whatever, but it's an
13:37almost an admission in a in a way on
13:39another level of
13:41of of saying that they got the best of
13:42me. Mhm.
13:44And I really don't want Mhm.
13:47You know, I I really don't want anybody
13:49historically to get have to have gotten
13:51the best of me, but they did. They did.
13:53They beat the hell out of me.
13:55You don't want to say I really was
13:56defeated
13:58at times
14:00and yet that's the truth.
14:04It is.
14:12You know, being
14:15having it being all right to be defeated
14:17and be beaten and
14:20I don't know if there's any
14:22value in
14:25you know, maybe to myself admitting it
14:26to myself or whatever, you know, but you
14:28know, I've I'm really finding out I got
14:30a lot of hang-ups in terms of in that
14:32line that
14:33I hadn't thought of before, you know, in
14:35terms of
14:36because I don't want to be beaten.
14:39But I was.
14:40You know?
14:41Because I think when you are hurt
14:43that's being beaten, I guess.
14:46You know?
14:46And I allowed myself to and I don't
14:49regret caring and I don't regret loving
14:51or whatever, but you know, like I'm a
14:54I'm a kid and I I'm a kid in a way. I
14:56like to be loved too. I like to be uh
15:00some reciprocity.
15:07And I'm going to expect I I think
15:08expecting that.
15:11You know, without being cold or anything
15:13like that, but I have to, you know,
15:15start getting something back in return.
15:18You want love to be mutual. For sure.
15:20For sure.
15:21And I don't want to have get in the
15:23situation like in now, you know, where
15:26I'm afraid to to
15:28to show anybody that I'm I'm hurt. Mhm.
15:31Mhm. You know, I'm scared to death,
15:32terrified.
15:35Something really awful about showing
15:37letting anyone know that I'm hurt. Yeah.
15:40I'm hurting. Sure.
15:42Sure.
15:43It's
15:44You know, it has something to do with
15:45being a man. It has something to do with
15:48with the race thing,
15:49you know.
15:50It has something to do with the
15:51relationship. Mhm.
15:54Maybe the failure of a relationship, uh
15:58a lot of things, you know, a father not
16:00being in the home with his children.
16:01Mhm.
16:06You know, I really feel like being a
16:07victim. Mhm.
16:26I don't know.
16:28How to get that up at all.
16:35Every time I get close to that I can
16:37take a drink of water.
16:41Uh I don't know if that helps it
16:43keep it down there or what.
16:44Maybe maybe that'll keep it from coming
16:45up above this level.
16:46sure I
16:48Yeah, I know.
16:50It's now it it really isn't what I want
16:51either.
16:52You know, I wanted to get out and and
16:54stay out, you know. Mhm.
16:57I would like to let it out. Yeah.
17:02So, maybe if you have any
17:04exorcism type powers or whatever that uh
17:07maybe you can just do that and then I'll
17:09be free of that, you know. Because
17:11that's what it feels like. It feels like
17:12there's something there, you know, that
17:13I really and I've identified it.
17:16I think I've identified it, you know.
17:19Because I know that sometimes when
17:20there's just such a big lump in my
17:23throat.
17:25You know, and then I explain and give
17:28myself a lot of reasons why I shouldn't
17:29be feeling like that.
17:31You know.
17:34A big lump of hurt though. Mhm.
17:49And how to let that hurt come out in the
17:51open. How to let it
17:56emerge and be out here instead of way
17:58down locked in here. Right.
18:05Yeah.
18:08You know, I I I never believe in
18:10cookbook answers
18:11to anything. Even when I cook, I don't
18:13use a cookbook. I just don't believe in
18:15it.
18:16I think but um I'd really like
18:19to be able for somebody to tell me to,
18:22you know,
18:22maybe how to do that in about 5 minutes
18:25and be through with it so I can live the
18:26rest of my life in peace. You know what
18:28I mean? Sure. It'd be awfully nice if
18:30somebody could say, "Now, if you do this
18:31and this,
18:32all your hurt will come out and it'll be
18:34gone forever." For sure.
18:36Be great, wouldn't For sure.
18:41I have a suspicion that maybe you know
18:42some things that I don't know.
18:45No. Oh. No, I'm not holding out on you.
18:52Yeah, I I believe that. I I
18:56feels like I'm holding out on myself.
18:58You know.
18:59I have, you know.
19:03I don't know.
19:05It goes back to some of the things
19:06you're mentioning. A man doesn't admit
19:08he's hurt.
19:09A black man especially doesn't admit
19:11that he's been hurt by anything.
19:13Mhm.
19:16Father doesn't admit he's been hurt by
19:18being away from his children.
19:20Just too many things that say no, no,
19:22no, no.
19:23Don't let it out.
19:31But inside there's the hurt.
19:33Yeah.
19:34A phrase came to me a minute ago that if
19:36you could let that out
19:38and I don't know if this will ring true
19:40with you or not, if you could let that
19:41out, it would be the voice of the
19:42victim.
19:45I don't know if that makes any sense in
19:46that, but
19:47Yeah. And I don't know what, you know, I
19:49don't know if I have any control over
19:50that.
19:51You know, of what of what of what would
19:53happen, you know. It's like a friend of
19:54mine the other day was a who helped me
19:55through my illness and everything. He
19:57says, you know, when I encountered
19:59another person that
20:01you know, very intelligent sort that was
20:04talking a bunch of intellectual garbage
20:06about feelings and and things like that.
20:11That I really wanted to just uh
20:14you know, I really saw that him the
20:16society, the culture writing him, you
20:18know. And I really wanted to just to
20:20kind of deck him. And that's something
20:21that's not uh my nature or whatever, but
20:24I could just really wonder what just
20:26like to have socked him.
20:27Yeah.
20:28And my friend said, you know, one of
20:29these days, he says, if you
20:32if you don't get it together or or
20:33something, he says, not that if you
20:35don't get it together, but he says, one
20:36of these days you're going to really
20:37lose it.
20:38You know.
20:39You know what I mean?
20:41It
20:41It's It's that I want to get rid of all
20:43that stuff that was done to me and not
20:46have to hear all that other stuff or to
20:48be able to deal with in a very
20:51constructive kind of a way, you know.
20:53But still it grinds me because of all
20:55the other stuff that's happened to me.
20:57And when I see other people doing it to
20:58other people or whatever, it grinds me.
21:00It makes me angry.
21:02You know.
21:04And I would think that
21:06in those situations I
21:09began to kind of strike out, you know,
21:10or like, you know, protecting somebody
21:12else or fighting for somebody else or
21:14whatever and like I'm not sure what I
21:16did for myself though those years that
21:19all that happened to me or whatever.
21:25And
21:27if I could cry and
21:30have it be all right
21:32that would be
21:33if you could only cry
21:34Yeah. If it be, you know, but that's a
21:36that's a trip, you know, it's that's a
21:37trip. Like uh
21:40First place a man doesn't cry. For sure.
21:43For sure.
21:45That's a fact.
21:46But I guess you're saying there are
21:47times when you
21:48have that lump in your throat and you
21:49sure as hell feel like crying. For sure.
21:52For sure.
21:56How I don't know.
21:59I don't know.
22:04I don't know. Maybe going to a movie of
22:05one of those old
22:07sad movies.
22:09Dramas or something like that, right? So
22:11I can cry, you know, and have an excuse
22:12to cry.
22:14You know, but crying for myself I'm not
22:15sure that uh
22:17just not sure that's going to be
22:18constructive.
22:20Mhm.
22:21You know.
22:24I don't know. You You say you're You're
22:25not sure whether crying for yourself is
22:27constructive. I feel
22:28also you're afraid of crying for
22:30yourself.
22:33I may be.
22:35I may be because if I feel like crying
22:37and I don't or whatever there's some
22:38things that are, you know, but you see
22:40that that's a part of it, too, you know,
22:42it's a
22:42you know, and I and I can't I I hate to
22:44keep using these things of, you know,
22:46where
22:47just being so conditioned not to, you
22:49know.
22:50You know, from a little thing of, you
22:50know, like, oh, you know, be little
22:52little men or big boys or whatever don't
22:54cry and
22:56and Probably a 7-year-old could cry.
22:59Yeah.
23:01For sure. I cried I remember crying, but
23:03I cried alone. Mhm.
23:05I never let anybody see me cry.
23:06Mhm.
23:08You know?
23:09I wonder how many people have seen me
23:10cry. Maybe two or three in the world.
23:13It's kind of interesting, you know? Mhm.
23:15I remember living with my ex-wife or
23:18whatever. She cried all the time. She
23:19cried getting up in the morning and you
23:21know, just crying. Would cry.
23:23You know, I asked her sometimes about
23:25why she cried and she just said
23:28I don't she just wanted to. Felt good.
23:30Mhm.
23:31I don't know if that was healthy or
23:32whatever, but probably was a lot more
23:34healthier than than what I did.
23:35Mhm.
23:37But it's better than
23:38never letting anyone see you cry.
23:39Right.
23:43There's so many other ways to do it, you
23:45know, that I've learned.
23:49You know, like working hard. Mhm.
23:52Not thinking about it.
23:53Mhm.
23:54You know? Mhm.
23:56Not thinking about it.
24:00Just saying that all the sorrow that you
24:02feel for yourself and for what's
24:03happened to you and all that
24:05um
24:05that doesn't really exist. That's That's
24:07just
24:08you're too busy to
24:10have any thoughts of that. For sure.
24:13But the sorrow is still there. For sure.
24:20And I really don't know how to And I
24:21really don't know how to deal with it. I
24:23really don't.
24:25I really don't.
24:32You know, just really giving so much of
24:33yourself and it's just
24:38really crazy.
24:41Too much.
24:49If you did cry
24:51what would some of the themes of that
24:53crying be?
24:59Well
25:04Just
25:06you know, all those, you know, hours
25:08that I, you know, I spent away from my
25:09family and I gave up my family and
25:11didn't see my children grow and
25:13you know,
25:14really wanted that to be for a
25:16some kind of a higher level, some kind
25:18of a cause, you know.
25:21But not to have that uh
25:25to see anything, any benefit that I did.
25:29You know, all of that work, I mean,
25:31hours and hours and
25:34it's just incredible and I think that
25:35would be one, you know, I was saying,
25:37"Damn it, why in the hell did I spend so
25:39much time?
25:40Why did I spend so much time, you know?
25:42The leukemia, they everything that
25:45happened to me or whatever would be
25:46probably deserved if one person's
25:50life would have been changed or
25:52something, you know, and I'm like
25:54And maybe that maybe it has or whatever,
25:56but
25:57but I think that I I don't trust that
26:00that that it was worth it. You see?
26:02Yeah. You invested a whole lot of
26:04caring, a whole lot of yourself and
26:06and you feel real sorrow that
26:08maybe nothing came of it.
26:12And
26:14and I'd also like to uh
26:16just kind of cry for my um
26:19father-in-law too
26:20who was killed
26:22before I
26:23about 6 months before I got the
26:25leukemia.
26:26I'd like to really tell him that I uh
26:30you know, I really loved him a great
26:32deal.
26:39So, you're telling me
26:41in place of telling him
26:45maybe you could even
26:46speak to him, I don't know, but at any
26:48rate, you really would like to
26:50tell him,
26:51"I loved you, you know that? I loved
26:53you. Well, I I really would, you know,
26:55in the the situation that we started
26:57out, I was married and we married
26:58somebody uh of a different race. And we
27:01fought it out tooth and nail or whatever
27:03and but but you know, we loved each
27:05other and we fished together and he was
27:07great with me, you know, he had a very
27:10to other people a very cold way, you
27:12know, of you know
27:14by God, this is the way it's going to be
27:16and so forth, but I saw him when he was
27:18hurt, too.
27:18Mhm. And um
27:20when he was killed in in 1975 in a in a
27:23hunting accident.
27:25It just really took all of it, you know.
27:27Because he he helped me to get try to
27:30get out of that stuff. He's saying,
27:31"Hey, you know, what are you doing, you
27:33know, do you what do you really want to
27:34do?" And at the time I wanted to, you
27:36know, to open my own restaurant or
27:38whatever. Mhm. And so he was going to
27:40help me finance that restaurant, you
27:42know.
27:43And so a week later he was killed, one
27:46week.
27:47And um
27:50and so we were getting so close
27:52but that I really never told him that,
27:54"Hey, Dad, you know hey, Dad I love
27:57you."
27:58I really love you. And we told each
28:01other, I guess, in some ways or
28:02whatever, but it's not the same as
28:04saying, you know, saying, "Hey, I really
28:05love you.
28:06I really care." You feel real sad that
28:08you never gave him a straight message on
28:10that, I love you.
28:11because he was straighter than with me
28:13than a lot of people.
28:14Mhm.
28:15You know? Mhm.
28:19And to now to be taken away from all of
28:22that.
28:24See, because it's only been a I don't
28:25know, what, 8 months or so since um
28:28ceased all communication with my family,
28:30you know, family that or my wife's
28:32family that I'd loved and I'd cared for
28:34and that I'd buried my father-in-law.
28:38And that was it. That was the and then
28:41even the family began to take on those
28:42same things that the culture, you know.
28:44Things began to fall apart for everyone.
28:46For sure. For sure.
28:48You know, and they I don't know
28:50falling apart or at least my being able
28:52to see that uh
28:54that it really wasn't it wasn't true. It
28:56wasn't real. I wasn't getting I wasn't
28:58getting anything back. I wasn't getting
29:00any nourishment back, you know.
29:01You know, smiles and polite kisses and
29:04things like that, you know.
29:07That is
29:10you know, part of the hurt, you know.
29:11I'd rather for somebody to say
29:14you know, I think you're a lousy SOB or
29:16whatever
29:17as opposed to saying, "Hello, dear. How
29:19are you?" You know.
29:21You know. When when the real message
29:22perhaps is
29:24I think you're a lousy SOB. Right.
29:26Right. You know.
30:33Yeah, so there's you know, there's a few
30:34things.
30:35Part of the sorrow would be for your
30:37father-in-law and you'd really weep for
30:39him.
30:41I I think I would,
30:43you know.
30:47And just maybe I still think that I
30:49really wish that I could, you know, just
30:50say, "Hey,
30:52you know, you guys,
30:54you really don't realize what you did to
30:55me, you know?"
30:58Because for a while I just, you know,
31:00saying, "Well, you know,
31:02racist, Mhm. terrible, Mhm. blah, blah,
31:05blah.
31:06But
31:08that doesn't say anything, you know,
31:09because it doesn't say how I really
31:10feel, you know? But they but it but it
31:13they they wouldn't understand it. They
31:14wouldn't understand how a black person
31:16could be hurt, you know? Because if you
31:17don't accept a person as human, how can
31:19you
31:20how can you think about, you know, like
31:21it's like the thing that a dog could be
31:23hurt or whatever, you know, people that
31:24don't have dogs and don't understand it.
31:27You know? It's a But you you'd get some
31:29satisfaction out of saying,
31:31"You people don't realize how much you
31:33hurt me."
31:35They might not be able to hear that
31:36message, but you'd get some satisfaction
31:38out of
31:39out of
31:40expressing that, out of out of
31:43letting
31:44letting yourself know, letting others
31:46know that
31:47God, I've been hurt.
31:57I've been wounded.
31:59I just don't think I could do that cuz I
32:00just don't think that it I just don't
32:02trust,
32:04you know. Mhm.
32:05No.
32:06I wouldn't do it because I just wouldn't
32:08want to give them the satisfaction, you
32:09know?
32:10Mhm.
32:10It's like I feel like, you know, by
32:12saying, you know, and maybe that
32:14is my feeling.
32:15But I have I have too many times, you
32:17know, when, you know, opened up a little
32:19bit or whatever and someone says,
32:21Mhm.
32:22squash.
32:24So, there're probably loads of people
32:25you wouldn't dare
32:26open up to on that.
32:28But I guess you're opening up to me to
32:30say, "Yes, but I have been really
32:32wounded badly by a lot of people."
32:35For sure.
32:38Just maybe think that you can understand
32:39that a little bit in terms of about hurt
32:41and that
32:42you know that I you know that I'm a I'm
32:44a person and and um
32:52you know I'm a person.
32:57And I don't really want that denied to
32:59me you know again.
33:02You know,
33:03like I could really get angry.
33:07I don't you know I just that's not going
33:09to happen to me.
33:10You know, in a way you know and I don't
33:12want to love anybody like I did my
33:13father-in-law again.
33:15For God's sake you know that's that's
33:16painful but I know that's terribly sick
33:19too that you have to love you have to
33:21continue to love people or whatever but
33:23but that time it was the only
33:26thing that was productive it was the
33:28only thing that was something that was
33:30you know this Fromm talks about
33:32biophilic. It was growth if it was
33:34nourishing. That was the only thing and
33:36that was just taken away from me and it
33:38was taken away from me just just like
33:40that. You know, it was just really
33:42strange you know.
33:44So that's that's been a
33:47a hurt and a shock and and makes you
33:50feel I can't risk myself
33:53loving somebody else like that because
33:54that might disappear somewhere or other.
33:56For sure.
33:57For sure.
33:59For sure. I certainly don't want any
34:00more in-laws.
34:04Be they uh whatever color.
34:06I'm not sure I want them but now you
34:08know and that's a I think that's a part
34:09of it.
34:11You know, more so than than the risking
34:14loving somebody just because of the
34:16death death I know is inevitable.
34:19But it's that that other collection of
34:21things around it or whatever. But
34:24you know, it's it's crazy. It's what?
34:27It's crazy to love you know it's just
34:28like loving a pet rock or something you
34:30know or something.
34:32Nothing you know.
34:33Love goes out from me, but nothing comes
34:35back.
34:36And I'm not so sure that that that I
34:38want that if it if it work like that
34:39again.
34:40You know.
34:42And maybe by
34:43maybe saying that
34:45I don't know, maybe you know, calling to
34:46say, "Hey,
34:47I really was hurt and everything like
34:48that or whatever, maybe that would be a
34:50start
34:51or whatever, but I just don't really
34:52trust
34:54if they really understand that.
34:56I don't really really have
34:58It took my wife who lived with me for 7
35:00years
35:01you know, after last maybe 6, 7 months
35:04to understand that I was that I was
35:05hurt, that I was that I was desperate.
35:11You feel there's so little chance of
35:12anyone else really understanding you.
35:15Mhm, that sounds kind of yeah.
35:18Well,
35:23it's a little chance for the that group
35:24of people understanding me.
35:27And I believe it.
35:29I really believe it.
35:31You know.
35:32It would just it would be like me trying
35:34to um
35:39to understand or to to to tell
35:43Dick Nixon or something about my
35:44feelings and I just don't think he could
35:46relate to that.
35:48You know.
35:49And I'm using and I'm and I'm really
35:50serious about that example because he's
35:52so far away from me and my reality.
35:55And that family, you know, I found out
35:57it was so far away from me and my
35:59reality that you know, it was insane,
36:01you know. It was really insane, you
36:02know.
36:04So, I I think one level I feel okay for
36:06loving them.
36:07You feel okay for loving them. I see.
36:09Mhm.
36:10But I don't feel okay for sharing
36:12anymore with them.
36:13And sharing that hurt is just you know.
36:16And maybe sharing it with other people
36:20would be okay.
36:28But I know I'm moving away from the
36:30other two, you know. It's really
36:31important to me right now.
36:33And I don't know, maybe I won't.
36:37I'm not rushing it. It just seems to
36:38want to get out and jump out or
36:39whatever, but you know,
36:42you know, it's really must have really
36:44gone through my body really must have
36:45gone through some changes or whatever
36:47because, you know, something there is
36:49just keeping it
36:51keeping it down. And I know all those
36:53reasons,
36:54but I can't uh I can't seem to muster
36:57that power to
36:58to get it to get that out, you know, to
37:01really, you know,
37:02Still too much locked in. Yeah, for
37:04sure.
37:05But it really it really helps,
37:08you know,
37:09um
37:12cuz it's it's it's just, you know, it's
37:14incredible, you know, I this is the
37:15first time I've talked to anybody that
37:18you know,
37:19that I haven't really been in control.
37:21To some extent, I've really given up a
37:22lot of control.
37:25to you. So so you're letting things
37:27loose rather than For sure.
37:28keeping them under your control. For
37:30sure.
37:31And that's a new experience. A very new
37:33experience for me.
37:35Very new experience.
37:36And maybe I don't know if it's just not
37:41just
37:42it's a function function of that, too,
37:43you know.
37:45Something, you know.
37:48Things are rattling around in my head
37:49now that's going to
37:51you know.
37:56But all the other sh- it's just
37:58and like I have been hurt
38:01and I really don't want to get involved
38:03anymore in terms of with people that
38:05can't return love
38:10and can't accept people.
38:13I just don't really want to get involved
38:15in anymore.
38:16I'm sick and tired
38:18sick of it.
38:21Sounds as though you're more accepting
38:22of yourself as a person who is
38:24vulnerable, who's been hurt, who is
38:26hurting,
38:27and who wants love, who doesn't want all
38:29to be a one-way street of giving love.
38:31You want love back in return. Mhm.
38:34Yeah.
38:35And I want to be able to to feel and to
38:38and to cry and not to be afraid of
38:40crying and and not to be afraid of uh
38:43I want to be able to and I'm going to
38:44work for that. I really want to work for
38:47that. I I know I do, you know, I just
38:48have this thing uh
38:50You know, if I trust the doctors I'd
38:52have them cut them cut me open and get
38:53that out, you know, but I don't.
38:56Probably be simpler to have an
38:57operation. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
39:00Yeah.
39:03But I
39:04But do you do you do you do you do you
39:07feel like, you know, like I really want
39:08to, you know, tell you how hurt I am,
39:09but I'm not. I can't tell you.
39:11I understand that.
39:12Uh you're you're
39:16As I visualize this in my mind, you're
39:18walking all around the edge of that
39:20Yeah, but you're not really letting
39:21yourself down into it. So, you're
39:23letting me know all about it, but but
39:25not yet. Yeah, for sure.
39:28Yeah, don't know how to do that.
39:29Mhm.
39:30You know.
39:32Yeah, I I hear you saying, "I really
39:35want to get to that.
39:37But it'll have to be at my pace. I can't
39:39I can't force it. I can't but I do want
39:42to get to it."
39:44Yeah.
39:45And I want to get to it really fast, you
39:46know, because that's the only part of me
39:48right now that's really
39:50I really feel that's sick. It's really
39:52the cancer, you know, that if I could
39:54eliminate that, I could eliminate all of
39:55the cancer from my body. I really
39:58believe it, you know.
39:59And I really blame
40:01I really blame the way I lived
40:04and the stress and everything else like
40:05that on on
40:07on the disease. I really do.
40:09You mean you blame the disease on all
40:11that stress? Is that what you mean?
40:12Right, for sure, yeah. I have to turn
40:14around, for sure. I do. I do.
40:18And so I said I blame racism.
40:21You know, I just don't want to get
40:22caught up into that anymore.
40:24You know.
40:26And I want to continue to give.
40:28But I don't
40:29I'm just not going to do it the way I
40:30did it before.
40:32And uh
40:34I don't know.
40:35May- yelling sometimes, you know, like
40:37when I came in here
40:39I was thinking about yelling, you know,
40:41those big long, you know.
40:43But I'm not sure that I want to do that.
40:46You could try. Yeah,
40:48I don't know, you know.
40:51That wouldn't be cultured.
40:55Standard, standard, standard.
40:56man. I really I was really socialized.
40:59You were brought up right. Oh, yeah. I
41:01was.
41:03I learned all of it.
41:05All of it.
41:07And still in spite of yourself by a good
41:09deal of it.
41:10Yeah.
41:13Yeah. You really don't want to, but
41:14still you find
41:16Yeah.
41:17You can't do the uncultured thing.
41:20For sure.
41:25It is standards, I guess, and uh
41:28that are really sworn to me, but uh
41:32you know,
41:33the the thing that you know
41:36that I thought about, you know, and like
41:39you know, it was like in terms of
41:40expressing my anger, whatever, comes out
41:42in terms of, you know,
41:46possible obscenity, you know.
41:49You know, like calling somebody a bunch
41:51of something or whatever would really,
41:53you know, I don't know what it would do,
41:55but you know, I could really like to do
41:57that, you know.
42:00That helps to explain why I feel you've
42:01kept your language more quite guarded
42:03here. I I realize I haven't used more
42:05profanity than you have.
42:07For sure, you know, it's not because of,
42:09you know, but
42:11I don't know. It's just a a part of
42:13that, you know, like I was just
42:15You'd like to just tell off the bastard.
42:16Yeah, right. Right.
42:19Right. For sure.
42:22Oh my goodness.
42:25You can't even do that?
42:27Oh, it it's incredible. I I don't know.
42:33I'm getting warm.
42:35Both inside and outside.
42:37Yes, right. Right. I'm getting extremely
42:39warm. Mhm.
42:40Um
42:44Yeah, maybe I'll be able to do it one
42:45day, I guess.
42:49Maybe I'll be able to do it.
42:51I really haven't used But see, when I
42:53get out of here, I'll use a lot of
42:54profanity. Mhm.
42:55You know.
42:57I don't you know, just in terms of, you
42:58know
43:01Like I I I I'd
43:03I think I did, you know, when I was
43:04really angry talking to my wife and
43:06things like that, you know, where I was
43:07just
43:08God damn it. And
43:10all of that, you know.
43:12Bastards and
43:13some other things and like, you know, I
43:16was raised properly, you know.
43:19Uh
43:21Yeah, but I think part of that would be
43:22a part of expressing my Mhm. feelings
43:25and everything like that, you know. It
43:27wouldn't come out in nice, polite
43:28language. No, it wouldn't.
43:30It really wouldn't.
43:32Really wouldn't.
43:33To my teachers
43:36that I had.
43:37To the family that I had, uh
43:40To a lot of my colleagues.
43:44You know, and others.
43:52And
43:56but I don't know if I really want to
43:57tell them.
43:59You know, maybe it's just a part of just
44:00being proud and Mhm.
44:02and everything else like that. But at
44:03least to myself, I least I need to get
44:05it out and openly and Yeah.
44:07You may not tell it to them face to
44:09face, but you need to get it out of
44:10yourself somehow.
44:11Mhm.
44:12Somehow, yeah.
44:13Yeah.
44:16Really rotten and
44:19I really feel, you know, really screwed.
44:21I really feel Mhm. so badly.
44:26The bastards really screwed me.
44:30Yeah, I know. They They got me. You
44:32know, it's just like being part I guess
44:34that had something to do with being an
44:35Indian, I guess, you know, just
44:40You just wipe them out. You know, if you
44:42don't get them with their bodies, you do
44:44it in their mind, you know, like
44:47It happened, you know, and it it was It
44:49was real, you know, and I you know, and
44:51to try to describe that hell to somebody
44:53is just the the hardest thing, you know.
44:57But it's like, you know, just somebody
44:59knocking you down Mhm.
45:01and somebody coming and stomping on you
45:03and spitting on you and everything like
45:05that and like it's just, you know,
45:08and just being
45:09feeling like garbage.
45:10Mhm. Mhm.
45:16And I have a feeling that
45:19people have made me feel like garbage,
45:21you know, and like
45:23You know,
45:25I'm sure that my friends would say, you
45:26know, God, I had everything. Mhm.
45:29But I didn't have everything.
45:31I didn't have everything.
45:33Certainly didn't have that respect But
45:35as a person
45:40There were a lot of people who though
45:41they may or may not have beaten you
45:43physically
45:45treated you in a way that just trampled
45:48on you and beat you up and spit on you
45:52and made you a nobody, a piece of
45:54garbage.
45:57And it won't happen again.
46:00Not if I can help it.
46:08Cuz I'm really tired of fighting.
46:10Really tired of expending that kind of
46:12energy.
46:13Really it's just it's draining. It's too
46:15draining in life.
46:17You know.
46:21I don't really know what's going to
46:22happen in terms of, you know, how I'm
46:23going to do that, you know,
46:26get it out or
46:29or whatever, but
46:31you know, well I just don't really want
46:32to say, you know, that I'm hurt
46:34or whatever.
46:36Cuz that is
46:37that isn't even descriptive enough
46:42for what really happened.
46:45To say a word like that or several of
46:47the words you've used just
46:49isn't at all the same as feeling those
46:52feelings inside and really feeling them
46:54fully.
46:59It really is a
47:01I don't know if you saw The Exorcist,
47:02but
47:04it says really is, you know, that oof.
47:08You know.
47:10I remember seeing that movie where the
47:11girl just threw up this green slime, you
47:14know, and that's really
47:17it's that, you know, it's that bad, you
47:18know, it's
47:19you know, it's that it's that bad.
47:23And cuz I know it I know it now, you
47:24know, and that's not a part of me and my
47:26body really wants to reject that, but I
47:28how to how to throw that up. Yeah, how
47:30to how to vomit up that green slime
47:33that's been a
47:34part of your experience.
47:38And then I'm just afraid I'll look
47:39horrible, you know, or
47:41or that I'd look horrible or whatever
47:43expressing that kind of anger, that kind
47:45of uh
47:46that kind of hurt or whatever. You
47:48wouldn't look civilized, you wouldn't
47:49look cultured?
47:54I don't know. I don't know.
47:56You know.
48:03Don't really know.
48:08But right now that
48:10more than getting that out, I think the
48:12other the overriding thing is
48:14that I want to keep the at least the
48:16control
48:19to control that for fear of
48:23You see, I don't really want to get sick
48:24again. Mhm.
48:26You know.
48:27Like I think the slightest
48:29you know, just by being weak
48:31by submitting to that kind of pain and
48:36uh
48:38somehow
48:39bring back my uh
48:41You wonder about that, whether if you if
48:43you let out all the
48:46all the hell that you've experienced
48:47inside it might uh
48:52it might bring back your illness.
48:55You know, that doesn't sound logical,
48:56does it?
48:59I know that.
49:00Okay, thank you. Thank you very much.
49:04Oh god.
49:06What a mhm
49:25I don't know.
49:26Got to, you know.
49:27I feel so beaten.
49:30I
49:35I mean, I feel I'm beaten right now and
49:36I'm not sure why, but
49:38that in the way that I got to really got
49:40something to say and I just
49:43you know.
49:45And I know I feel better.
49:47But maybe I wouldn't, you know.
49:49I'm really talk God, I realize I'm I'm
49:51talking in circles.
49:53I seem to be talking in circles. Does
49:55that sound like uh No, not quite. It's
49:57more spirals, I think.
49:59You're getting
50:00Did you say getting very close? You feel
50:03You feel
50:04beaten right now as though
50:07if only something could come out you
50:08wouldn't feel beaten.
50:15Yeah.
50:23I think that, you know, just be that
50:25turn that almost turned me into
50:27something really inhuman. Mhm.
50:30I really almost let it turn me into
50:31something really inhuman. It damn near
50:33made an animal out of you. Damn near.
50:36Damn near.
50:38Yeah.
50:43So, you say it that uh
50:48I don't want that to happen again.
50:51at all.
50:56Not going to do it to me again.
50:59That's very clear. Yeah.
51:01And I know that doesn't help the other
51:03problem, but
51:05at least I know that.
51:07And I really do know that.
51:08Mhm.
51:09You know. Mhm.
51:11Because I don't think anybody has a
51:12right to do that to anybody. Nobody.
51:14Teacher,
51:16wife,
51:17husband, whatever.
51:21And it And it really wasn't my fault,
51:22either. And And uh
51:25Like I'm not the blameless.
51:27I mean, you know, I'm not without any
51:28blame or whatever, but, you know,
51:33You know, just like somebody took a big
51:36goddamn tree and just rammed it up. Uh
51:39so, you know,
51:43Hard to describe, you know.
51:46You know.
51:47It was a big big and rammed it up your
51:49ass, is that what you said?
51:51I didn't say that.
51:53Is that what you meant? That's what I
51:54meant. That's what I meant. Okay.
51:56And that's what I wanted to know whether
51:57I was catching your meaning correctly.
51:59Yeah, for sure.
52:03You know, and you know that that
52:04probably would be painful.
52:10And it's that kind of pain that you've
52:11suffered.
52:13Yeah.
52:21Just can't let it just I just can't let
52:22it happen again.
52:44I am
52:46really uh
52:54I do really don't know how to
52:56tell you how badly I've been hurt.
53:00You know.
53:02I really don't. It goes beyond words.
53:06Yeah.
53:09But I know, you know, it's it's there
53:11and
53:13and maybe I should attend to it a little
53:14bit more.
53:17Like god damn it, you know, just ooh.
53:21Feeling some of that hurt now?
53:26Yeah, I am.
53:31I was thinking about a bottle on a
53:33street
53:35that continues to drink.
53:38Does have place to live.
53:41You know, I I've seen so many people go
53:43by that kind of person and you know,
53:46disgusting, don't want to work or
53:47whatever.
53:49But you know, I really feel like there
53:51may be some reasons.
53:55And I know one thing I'm going to allow
53:56that person to be desperate.
53:59Because I'm thinking that probably
54:01people
54:02like that do things out of desperation.
54:06And um
54:12because I know, you know.
54:15Never really had a drinking problem or
54:16anything like that, but it's that kind
54:18of sensitivity that I've gotten from all
54:20of that.
54:22It seems seems to me that you
54:24uh
54:26feeling that you know what it's like to
54:27be in desperation and you know
54:30what it could drive you to and so maybe
54:32that's what's happened to some of them.
54:35Something like that. For sure.
54:38For sure. And I think that I
54:41I think my my heart goes out to people
54:43like that.
54:45People that can't afford to
54:47to do this or whatever and
54:49because see I had a lot of money and you
54:51know, and all
54:52left.
54:54And um
54:57but in a way I'm happier now.
54:59You know.
55:02But I really don't know.
55:05Not sure really where to go next.
55:07But I know that I don't really want that
55:09kind of life anymore.
55:11That I want to give, I want to help and
55:13I want to talk to people or whatever.
55:15And before I do that
55:17you know, I want to get my thing
55:18together.
55:21And a part of that is just maybe
55:22admitting, you know, and I guess maybe
55:24admitting that I'm hurt
55:25and showing and expressing my hurt or
55:27whatever
55:28will
55:31reaffirm the fact that I'm a person.
55:33Because a part of not I think showing
55:35that is, you know, putting myself up too
55:38high. That's, you know, and that's what
55:40everybody You know, that's what
55:41everything was.
55:43I'm fine.
55:44For sure.
55:45At least I admit to that. I'm growing,
55:46you know.
55:46that's right. Mhm.
55:48And just for a moment there I felt
55:49really
55:50re-experiencing that, too. Really
55:52feeling that stick shoved up your ass.
55:55Oh, yeah. You know, when I You know,
55:57when it's You know, how
55:59your your natural reaction, you know,
56:01when you start feeling stuff like that.
56:03Or at least what I do, I just kind of
56:05you know, I got to put it all out of my
56:06out of my mind, bring it down to a
56:07different level.
56:08Yeah. And I think that's what I'm doing.
56:10I keep doing, you know, when I get to
56:11the point.
56:12Got to bring it to a safe level. Get
56:14that close to the pit and then you
56:16pull the ripcord.
56:18For sure.
56:21Is it
56:25all right
56:27to have everybody else to blame?
56:30You know,
56:32all your for your problem and instead of
56:34sharing some of that. But I share it,
56:36you know, I I I think I really
56:38I share that. You know. I think I think
56:41what you said is
56:42I feel as though damn it, everybody else
56:43is to blame.
56:45So, you have probably you have a part in
56:47it, too, but
56:47Sure. But your feelings are
56:50Yeah.
56:56And I guess I hurt myself. I didn't
56:58Other people Maybe if I can clarify
57:00that, I let myself be hurt.
57:01Mhm.
57:03You know, because I just gave too much.
57:05You know.
57:07You made yourself vulnerable sometimes.
57:08Really. Mhm.
57:10And not sometimes, most of the time.
57:12Most of the time. You know.
57:13By being,
57:15you know, just by being
57:18by sharing, by being there, by giving,
57:21you know, and really loving.
57:24Because I do have that sense of a total,
57:26you know, that just I want to love.
57:28That's my nature.
57:32But you know, I I never never been this
57:35beaten. I never, you know.
57:41Never have.
57:44I want to be clear about your meaning.
57:45You've never
57:47felt so much of being beaten as you do
57:49right now. Is that what you're saying?
57:51But through this whole thing, you know.
57:53Yeah.
57:54Just beaten, you know. Just really
57:57beaten. And I think that if I show you
57:58how
58:00much I've been beaten or whatever, you
58:01know, like I'd probably, you know,
58:03become nothing in this chair, you know.
58:05Just
58:06you know.
58:08Could you mean practically disappear if
58:09you really let you know how hurt and
58:12beaten and awfully For sure. For sure.
58:15You know, I could tell you sometimes, I
58:17mean, it would just
58:19you know, maybe blow you away, you know.
58:45Really too much for me. Mhm. It's really
58:48too much for me.
58:49Mhm.
58:51I feel like it.
58:51I think you feel as though I've gone
58:53about as far as I can go with this one.
58:57Yeah.
58:58I know.
59:00Yeah, really.
59:02When I start smiling, I know I am. Mhm.
59:04Taking a drink of water.
59:06For sure.
59:10Well, you know, but I'm being truthful
59:12about it anyway. Yeah.
59:15Yeah, I feel I feel too.
59:17Uh
59:18you've walked around that pit of hurt
59:21and pain and
59:22beatenness and you've you've felt some
59:24of it.
59:25And uh
59:29And perhaps that's as
59:30far as you can go right at this moment.
59:36Even though you know there's more there,
59:38you know that you're keeping some of it
59:40down.
59:41Um
59:42And they know those things may be
59:44helpful, too.
59:47Yeah.
59:47You see, because I I can talk about this
59:49leukemia and and all this stuff and
59:51everything like that.
59:53Like I said, you know.
59:55Fascinating. And it's easier to talk
59:56about
59:57leukemia and the possibility of death
59:59and all that than it is to talk about
1:00:01all the
1:00:03hurt and awfulness that you've suffered.
1:00:07Yeah.
1:00:11Shh.
1:00:12Uh
1:00:13I agree.
1:00:15Uh
1:00:16I want, you know.
1:00:21I have to stop.
1:00:24Okay? Okay. Mhm. Mhm.
1:00:30Gone about as far as he can go. Right.
1:00:32Mhm. Okay.
1:00:36I thought that's
1:00:45Here is an armor-plated man. He's been
1:00:47sufficiently hurt that he hides his real
1:00:50feelings very deeply.
1:00:52But in this relationship, the armor
1:00:54begins to crack.
1:00:55Just begins to crack.
1:00:57He says this is the first time that he
1:01:00I've ever talked to anybody that I
1:01:02haven't really been in control.
1:01:04So, in this understanding climate, he
1:01:07lets himself creep closer to the
1:01:08experiencing of his feelings.
1:01:12My image is that he's walking all around
1:01:15his own private slough of despond.
1:01:18We find the upper layer is anger.
1:01:20But further down in the slime are the
1:01:22unspeakable hurts and the feelings of
1:01:25being tramped on, defeated, and
1:01:27humiliated.
1:01:29He gets so close to experiencing some of
1:01:31this that his expressions become
1:01:33eloquent nonverbal communication.
1:01:37Ooh.
1:01:40Oh,
1:01:41I've got to stop.
1:01:43I feel that at that moment he put his
1:01:45foot into this dreaded pit, but then he
1:01:47has to draw back.
1:01:50I don't regret this. I regard it as
1:01:52demonstrating the wisdom of the client.
1:01:55He knows where the worst spots are in
1:01:57his experiencing.
1:01:59He knows what he can tolerate.
1:02:01He has to proceed at his own pace.
1:02:06Along the way, we see how powerful
1:02:08metaphor is in the deeper ranges of
1:02:10psychotherapy.
1:02:12Metaphor is so much more expressive than
1:02:14an intellectual description.
1:02:16The lump in his throat, the ability to
1:02:18speak from up here, and not from down
1:02:21there.
1:02:22The goddamn tree stuck up his ass, the
1:02:25green slime that must be vomited.
1:02:28They all speak vividly of his feelings
1:02:30without naming those feelings.
1:02:34From an intellectual and theoretical
1:02:35point of view,
1:02:36there are bits that fascinate me.
1:02:39His introjected self is his cultured
1:02:41self that quotes credit to his race.
1:02:44It has little relation to the real
1:02:46feelings in which
1:02:47he could discover his real self.
1:02:51Another bit.
1:02:52He reports very convincingly that if he
1:02:55let his feelings all out, it would make
1:02:57him sick again.
1:02:59But hearing those exact words spoken
1:03:01acceptantly by me makes him realize it's
1:03:04a ridiculous view.
1:03:06To me, that's a fascinating interchange.
1:03:09There's another bit.
1:03:11When I give him full permission to be as
1:03:13angry as he wishes, that stops him
1:03:15completely.
1:03:16Then he can no longer avoid the fact
1:03:19that it's not his anger that he's afraid
1:03:21of, but the hurting and vulnerable part
1:03:23of him.
1:03:26Then there's the mourning, which
1:03:27accompanies unexpressed love.
1:03:30The love for his father-in-law, which he
1:03:32was never able to communicate.
1:03:34I think he gained from communicating it
1:03:36to me.
1:03:39Finally, he makes it very clear that for
1:03:41him there are many more frightening
1:03:42aspects of his life than the prospect of
1:03:45death.
1:03:47Somehow, this seems to contain a message
1:03:49for all of us.
1:03:52As for me, I felt very present in the
1:03:54relationship.
1:03:55An understanding companion on this trip
1:03:58of exploration which seemed so
1:04:00potentially dangerous to him.
1:04:04I think it's a good example
1:04:06of how I work with an articulate client.
1:05:13Counselors meet with and work with a
1:05:16whole range of people.
1:05:18Some present difficult situations which
1:05:21they are keen to talk about to someone
1:05:23who will listen to them and understand
1:05:24what they are going through.
1:05:26Counseling can be relatively
1:05:28straightforward even though it may be
1:05:30full of pain and difficulty for the
1:05:31client.
1:05:32Others, for one reason or another, make
1:05:35the actual interview or parts of the
1:05:37interview difficult for the counselor.
1:05:40Perhaps ultimately because they are
1:05:41finding the situation very difficult
1:05:43themselves.
1:05:44But it is not always easy at the time
1:05:47for a counselor to be so understanding
1:05:49of the awkward situation.
1:05:51We have to respond in some way to the
1:05:53request, the protest, or the information
1:05:55the client drops on us.
1:05:58Sometimes we respond well,
1:06:00sometimes not so well.
1:06:02And there always those times when
1:06:03afterwards you say to yourself, "If only
1:06:06I had said this or if only I had said
1:06:08that."
1:06:09In this series of vignettes, we play out
1:06:12the role of counselor and client in a
1:06:14number of awkward situations which we
1:06:16have come across in our practice.
1:06:19In every case, we try initially to make
1:06:21a response which is helpful,
1:06:23although it is probably not the most
1:06:25helpful response that could be given.
1:06:27So each scene is shown twice.
1:06:30The video is best stopped after the
1:06:32first shot of each scene
1:06:34for you to discuss what you think about
1:06:36the first response given
1:06:38and how else you might respond.
1:06:40The scene is then shown a second time
1:06:43but with an alternative response by the
1:06:44counselor.
1:06:46One which, at least in our opinion, is
1:06:48better than the first.
1:06:50There is, of course, never just one
1:06:52correct way to respond to an awkward
1:06:54situation, but we think the second
1:06:56response is careful, as indeed the first
1:06:59may be,
1:07:00but also gets hold of the underlying
1:07:01issue which the client is trying to
1:07:03express.
1:07:05You two, in your discussions between the
1:07:07two versions will come up with equally
1:07:09valid alternatives which fully
1:07:11acknowledge the situation which the
1:07:13client brings or creates.
1:07:21Well, I'm not stopping.
1:07:23I just came to tell you that I'm all
1:07:25right now. I made an appointment I don't
1:07:27know how many weeks ago. I was due to
1:07:29see one of your counselors. Your
1:07:31counselor was then ill.
1:07:33Which wasn't much use to me. I've got
1:07:35through this lot all on my own, thanks
1:07:37very much.
1:07:38Yes, it does sound as though you've had
1:07:39a pretty bad time.
1:07:41Um, actually our system isn't very good,
1:07:43really.
1:07:58Well, I'm not stopping.
1:08:00I just came to tell you that I'm all
1:08:02right now.
1:08:03I made an appointment I don't know how
1:08:04many weeks ago. I was due to see one of
1:08:06your counselors. Your counselor was then
1:08:09ill.
1:08:10Which wasn't much use to me. I've got
1:08:12through this lot all on my own, thanks
1:08:14very much.
1:08:16Well, you do seem to have been very much
1:08:17messed about by the system and I'm sorry
1:08:19about that.
1:08:21And I don't think that I can make that
1:08:23better.
1:08:24But now that you are here, perhaps we
1:08:26could talk about some of the things that
1:08:28are troubling you.
1:08:36I'm wondering whether it might help
1:08:40if next time you feel angry,
1:08:43you just wonder what actually triggered
1:08:45it off.
1:08:47That point.
1:08:49Well, I suppose I could, but I I don't
1:08:51think that's going to be very helpful.
1:08:55Well, I can't force you to take my
1:08:56suggestions.
1:09:13I'm wondering whether it might help
1:09:17if next time you feel angry
1:09:20you just wonder what actually triggered
1:09:22it off
1:09:23that point.
1:09:26Well, suppose I could, but I I don't
1:09:28think that's going to be very helpful.
1:09:31It seems as though it's hard for you
1:09:34perhaps to think
1:09:36there actually might be a way forward.
1:09:47It's time we finish for this week now.
1:09:50You don't think I'm going to leave now?
1:09:52I mean, we haven't sorted anything out
1:09:54really, have we? I'm I'm not going to
1:09:55go. Well, I'm afraid it's time to go.
1:10:14It's time we finish for this week now.
1:10:17You don't think I'm going to leave now?
1:10:20I mean, we haven't sorted anything out
1:10:21really, have we? I'm I'm not going to
1:10:23go.
1:10:26You won't go until what?
1:10:34Well, I think that's time that we
1:10:35finished for today.
1:10:39Please, I I I really want some more
1:10:41time. I
1:10:43Please, can we carry on longer?
1:10:46Well, if it's just a minute.
1:11:03Well, I think that's time that we
1:11:05finished for today.
1:11:08Please, I I really want some more time.
1:11:11I
1:11:12Please, can we carry on longer?
1:11:15I'm afraid we really must finish there,
1:11:18but if you could bring
1:11:20what you have here now to start the
1:11:22session next week.
1:11:30Do you remember what what you said to me
1:11:32last week?
1:11:34You were saying that um
1:11:36it seemed really quite difficult for me
1:11:37being here.
1:11:39And you were wondering what would make
1:11:41it more comfortable for me.
1:11:44Well,
1:11:46I've been thinking about that ever such
1:11:48a lot this week.
1:11:50And I thought really what would make it
1:11:52so much nicer and easier would be just
1:11:54sort of
1:11:55go and have a drink in the pub together.
1:11:59I think you misunderstood what I was
1:12:01saying last week.
1:12:19Do you remember what what you said to me
1:12:20last week?
1:12:23You were saying that um
1:12:24it seemed really quite difficult for me
1:12:26being here.
1:12:28And you were wondering what would make
1:12:29it more comfortable for me.
1:12:33Well,
1:12:35I've been thinking about that ever such
1:12:37a lot this week.
1:12:38And I thought really what would make it
1:12:40so much nicer and easier would be just
1:12:42sort of
1:12:43go and have a drink in the pub together.
1:12:48I think that you're saying you're still
1:12:50really very uncomfortable here.
1:12:53And that's perhaps something that we
1:12:54need to look at.
1:13:02Ever so sorry to come here and bother
1:13:03you. I'm I know you're very very busy
1:13:06and you've got so many people to see who
1:13:08I know are
1:13:09far far less often me, but please could
1:13:11you spend just a few minutes talking to
1:13:13me?
1:13:14Mhm.
1:13:16You're quite right, of course, we are
1:13:17under a great deal of pressure, but it
1:13:20It is a chance today to assess the
1:13:21situation and I guess if it feels really
1:13:25urgent, then we'll be able to see you
1:13:26next week.
1:13:40Ever so sorry to come here and bother
1:13:41you. I'm I know you're very very busy
1:13:44and you've got so many people to see who
1:13:46I know are far far less often me, but
1:13:49please could you spend just a few
1:13:50minutes talking to me?
1:13:54I guess it's very hard for you to feel
1:13:56that anyone can really value you.
1:14:04Well, Jill, I think we have to stop
1:14:06there. I'll see you again next week.
1:14:10I don't know if you will, actually.
1:14:14I just feel like throwing myself under a
1:14:16bus now.
1:14:19Well, would you like a few more minutes
1:14:21just to talk about that situation?
1:14:37Well, Jill, I think we have to stop
1:14:39there. I'll see you again next week.
1:14:43I don't know if you will, actually.
1:14:48I just feel like throwing myself under a
1:14:49bus now.
1:14:53I guess that
1:14:55finishing at that point makes you feel
1:14:57pretty angry with me.
1:14:59But I hope I'll see you next week.
1:15:38Seem to be having problems getting
1:15:40started today, don't we? Has it been a
1:15:42really bad week?
1:16:28I'm wondering whether you'd like me to
1:16:31say something
1:16:34or whether you're having some problems
1:16:36actually getting started today.
1:16:47You know when I told you
1:16:49several weeks ago about
1:16:51I don't know I felt so angry that I
1:16:54You know that I could have I just felt
1:16:56like hurting someone. Well, I'm starting
1:16:57to have those feelings towards you now.
1:17:01Well,
1:17:03I wonder if you're really having those
1:17:04sort of feelings about me, whether it
1:17:07might be better perhaps for you to see
1:17:08one of my male colleagues.
1:17:25You know when I told you
1:17:28several weeks ago about
1:17:30I don't know I felt so angry that I
1:17:33You know that I could have I just felt
1:17:34like hurting someone. Well, I'm starting
1:17:36to have those feelings towards you now.
1:17:40I think if you're having those sort of
1:17:42feelings that it's very important that
1:17:44we talk about them here together and try
1:17:46and sort out what they're about.
1:17:55I feel so incredibly upset and
1:17:57so unhappy.
1:17:59There's only one thing that I know will
1:18:01make me feel better.
1:18:02And that's if you will hold me very
1:18:04tight.
1:18:06Would you like to hold my hand?
1:18:22I feel so incredibly upset and
1:18:25so unhappy.
1:18:27There's only one thing that I know will
1:18:29make me feel better.
1:18:30And that's if you will hold me very
1:18:32tight.
1:18:36It sounds as if you're terribly raw and
1:18:38jagged and tangled inside.
1:18:41And then what you desperately need and
1:18:43want is someone who can somehow
1:18:46come in there and hold you really
1:18:48tightly and make you feel secure.
1:18:57Well, it's
1:18:58time for us to end today.
1:19:02But, how am I going to cope over the
1:19:04next few days?
1:19:07Well, I can try and fit you in tomorrow
1:19:09if that's any good.
1:19:24Well, it's
1:19:25time for us to end today.
1:19:29But, how am I going to cope over the
1:19:31next few days?
1:19:34I guess you're taking away an awful lot
1:19:37with you.
1:19:38And that must feel quite hard.
1:19:40Um
1:19:42perhaps you can feel you can leave a
1:19:43little bit of it here with me until we
1:19:46meet next week.
1:19:54Tell you the truth, I'm not absolutely
1:19:55sure what I'm doing here.
1:19:57Um I mean, I've been told
1:20:00that uh
1:20:01you're one of these feminist therapists
1:20:03and uh
1:20:04well, personally, you know, I mean, I'm
1:20:06social worker and I was trained in
1:20:08behavior therapy.
1:20:09And I don't really hold much by this
1:20:11academic outlook at all.
1:20:14I wonder if in that case you'd perhaps
1:20:16like me to refer you to one of my
1:20:18behavioral colleagues.
1:20:33Tell you the truth, I'm not absolutely
1:20:35sure what I'm doing here.
1:20:37Um, I mean, I've been told
1:20:39that uh
1:20:41you're one of these feminist therapists,
1:20:42and uh
1:20:44well, personally, you know, I mean, I'm
1:20:45a social worker, and I was trained in
1:20:47behavior therapy,
1:20:49and I don't really hold much by this
1:20:50academic outlook at all.
1:20:53But you've still come to see me.
1:20:56So, I wonder if you could just tell me a
1:20:57little bit more about what has brought
1:20:59you to see me.
1:24:14Mhm.

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