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Cancel Culture, Free Speech & Censorship w/ Greg Lukianoff — Transcript

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0:00the Mad Men are running the Asylum and
0:02they're running Academia yep publishing
0:04yep Clinical Psychology yep what the do
0:07we do about
0:10this the kids are showing up like little
0:12Jans and shouting down their
0:15professors HD you you are disgusting
0:18throwing temper tantrums like their
0:19infants they think they're showing up
0:20like little
0:22[Applause]
0:23[Music]
0:25Heroes deeply threatening psychotic
0:28mob
0:30is this really happening at a large
0:33scale we're now talking about over a
0:35thousand attempts to get professors
0:37fired it makes you wonder how are they
0:38finding so many Heretics to
0:40burn they're becoming more tribal
0:42they're becoming more intensive and more
0:44detached from the rest of the
0:47world courage feels like The Virtue that
0:50is most in need and most in deficit
0:52right now all right before we get to
0:54what I think might be the most spirited
0:57conversation with Greg lukanov about his
0:59new book The cancelling of the American
1:01mind be sure to hit that like button
1:03subscribe to the channel and you know
1:05ring that notification Bell so you won't
1:07miss our videos as they come out each
1:09[Music]
1:16week Greg welcome to Dad Saves America
1:19oh thanks for having me well I want to
1:21start with something that I I think you
1:23know but that I just want to
1:25re-emphasize which is um your book The
1:28coddling of the American m mind is is
1:31like the underlying DNA of what we do at
1:33the show oh my God I didn't I didn't
1:35remember this so I had so here's the
1:38backstory I had noticed my son not him
1:41personally but his friends were
1:43experiencing a lot of anxiety and a and
1:46and like behavior that just seemed
1:48strange to me like a um you know all the
1:51things you talk about in the book a kind
1:54of fragility um you know a kind of focus
1:57on mental health concerns when they're
2:00like privileged little boys that could
2:02be running around having fun like what
2:03do you have to worry about like I I look
2:06and I think about my childhood and I'm
2:07like I didn't know what anxiety was like
2:11and that makes one of you it's right and
2:14obviously anxiety has already always
2:16been with us but um you know and then he
2:19got into sixth grade and his
2:23school just for lack of a better term
2:25just was just went full woke full
2:27identity politics like you know gender
2:30stuff all he was getting hit with all
2:32kinds of stuff MH and at at the exact
2:35same time the coddling of the American
2:37line comes out and so I'm grappling with
2:40a landscape that I don't understand that
2:42seems to be kind of antithetical to
2:44being healthy and happy and I already
2:46was familiar with the concept of anti
2:48fragility from Nim TB and your book like
2:52laid out a structure for that and so I
2:54actually started working on a
2:56documentary mhm um about my personal
2:59experience and ins inspired in part by
3:01the book and then Co hits like while
3:05we're sitting with your co-author
3:06Jonathan height in March of
3:082020 and um we pause and we rethink and
3:14Dad Saves America is boring out of the
3:16uh the Phoenix out of the ashes of of
3:18CO's sort of shutdown of that project so
3:22you know so much of what you write about
3:25is in the DNA of what we're trying to do
3:27to inspire kids to be antifragile to
3:29agency to have a growth mindset and
3:31that's why I'm just excited to have you
3:33here oh that that's that's amazing I I I
3:35there was a big um political profile
3:38about me last weekend that made me
3:40profoundly
3:42uncomfortable why why did it make you
3:44uncomfortable I don't like it ever being
3:46about me I like I like it being about
3:47what I do um and also since I've wrote a
3:50whole book on cancel culture um I'm also
3:53fully aware of the idea that the less
3:55they know about you the better um you
3:57know the the more you're known cuz I
3:59mean it was was hard not to get super
4:00depressed and anxious working on
4:03cancelling of the American mind because
4:04it was I was like wow great I'm putting
4:07a bigger Target on my back than I
4:08already had you know there already
4:09people who hate me for coddling the
4:10American Mind by the way they hate me
4:12because they haven't read it they they
4:14Bas they basically they basically assume
4:16that what I'm saying is oh you spoiled
4:19kids and it's kind of like so so when I
4:22get some someone be kind of hostle to me
4:24it's like so you don't agree that we're
4:25teaching young people the the the mental
4:27habits of anxious and depressed people
4:29and that we should be ashamed of
4:30ourselves for actually harming them so
4:31badly and they're like huh it's like no
4:34that's the point of the book like like
4:37that's that's what we're actually saying
4:39that that adults have wronged you not
4:41that you're that you're spoiled like
4:43that's one of the reason why I never
4:45like the title I wanted to call it and
4:46actually height and I signed the
4:48contract under the name disempowered
4:50because it better conveys what I think
4:52we're doing to a lot of these oftentimes
4:54really brilliant and hardworking kids
4:56were that I I I've always wanted to make
4:58a um maybe animated video or something
5:01like that or or maybe actually live
5:03action of like an Olympic diver at the
5:05highest uh you know diving board just
5:07about to jump in and her mother comes up
5:10the L the ladder and and gets up to her
5:13and Whispers into her ear honey I don't
5:16think you can do this and the pain and
5:18difficulty of of that humiliation you're
5:20never going to recover from you really
5:22should ask me before you make these kind
5:24of decisions forever okay love you and
5:26then goes back down and it's kind of
5:28like that's what we're doing it we're
5:30basically and then being like Oh and
5:31have a nice day you know more or less
5:34and it's like no we're we're telling
5:36them that they can't handle the real
5:37world that they're too and they'll be
5:39permanently damaged by by words or
5:41relatively small slights that we
5:42wouldn't have given other thought to no
5:44wonder like they're anxious and
5:45depressed well it's funny because what
5:48seems to be happening which is just
5:51bizarre is things that we've actually
5:54even experimentally proven to be a
5:56disaster things like trigger warnings
5:58you know when you and again when you
6:00focus on the phobia it makes it worse
6:03well no kidding and then and but also
6:05we're playing essentially the blue eyes
6:07brown eyes experiment on a mass scale
6:10which is you know you separate people on
6:12the basis of some random identity marker
6:14in fact one that's assigned randomly
6:16yeah and they turn on each other and
6:17turn into tribal War bands and and
6:19that's like of all the things that don't
6:21replicate in Psychology that's like one
6:23of the ones that actually does that
6:25really does yeah you you you create a
6:28small sense uh even like you said even
6:30an entirely arbitrary sense of division
6:33between two groups you know red shirts
6:34and blue shirts you know um they very
6:37quickly start seeing you know I'm a red
6:39shirt and I like my red shirts and you
6:41blue shirts it's it's very hardwired
6:44into us but if you do it on something as
6:46Salient as race um the and then actually
6:51want people to increase their racial
6:52self identification it it's a it's a
6:55formula for a disaster and meanwhile
6:59what's messed up about this the most
7:01messed up thing and I didn't emphasize
7:02this as much in in cuddling the American
7:04mind but they're many cases they're
7:07justifying this by the idea that will
7:09lead to some eventual social good um yes
7:14and that's even more messed up because
7:17it's like so wait a second I'm in many
7:18cases lying to you telling you you you
7:21are weaker than you are and
7:23misrepresenting history and talking
7:25about more or less being like everyone's
7:27against you you know and you're always
7:29bad you can't succeed how could this go
7:31wrong uh but but under the idea that
7:34this misery and guilt will somehow
7:38compel you to to change the world in
7:40some positive way it's a bad Theory to
7:42begin with because anxious and depressed
7:44people aren't very effective Advocates
7:46and they have really weird ideas about
7:48what actually needs to be fixed it's
7:49funny because um early on we had um Matt
7:53Ridley on the show and he's another
7:56person that's been a deep um profound
7:58thinker for me really rational optimism
8:01and we were talking about you know in
8:03the in the run up to the interview I was
8:05talking to my son who I have
8:06philosophical conversations with all the
8:08time yeah and he said well isn't it the
8:10case that being animated by fear like
8:13fear of the climate catastrophe or
8:15whatever doesn't that isn't that like
8:18motivation to take action and so I
8:20brought this up with Matt and he said no
8:22that's like there's that's not the
8:24profile of the doer and the Creator the
8:27person that's operating from a place of
8:28fear
8:30shrinks yeah pardons collapses it's it's
8:33the opposite of the growth mindset like
8:35yeah if you want to be creative if you
8:37want to be productive you can't come
8:39from a place of I'm a victim the world
8:41is against me I am terrified I am doomed
8:44I shouldn't have any kids like none of
8:46that I do my best comedy when I'm
8:48terrified you know maybe depressed um
8:51sure but but but terrified no so um
8:55let's set the table here what the book
8:58is the cancelling of the Amer americ
8:59mind what is cancel culture uh we have a
9:03a deceptively simple and I say
9:05deceptively for a reason definition of
9:07it that's trying to make it a historic a
9:09historical period because I'm a First
9:11Amendment lawyer I'm very interested in
9:13in the history of freedom of speech and
9:16mass censorship events periods where
9:17lots of people get in trouble for their
9:19speech and there not that many of them
9:20in American history um they they uh and
9:23you can study them and they have been
9:25studied they have a name you know so
9:27like the Sedition Act of 179 Victorian
9:30era which was a very long period of
9:32course um but then Red Scare one Red
9:34Scare 2 also known as McCarthyism Red
9:36Scare one by the way was really quite
9:37short um what was Red Scare one real
9:39quick uh that's 1919 to 1921 but with a
9:43really terrifying year I mean like
9:45bombings um you know there was like I
9:48forget how many bombings there was
9:50across the country you know strikes all
9:51across the country it was the time when
9:53I try to get people sometimes to take
9:55more seriously why people were freaked
9:58out in the past
10:00partially because I think we let
10:02ourselves off the hook too easily when
10:04it comes to uh the current demands for
10:07for free like we know during the red
10:09during McCarthyism that there was
10:11nothing to be afraid of and it was just
10:13a moral Panic whereas today you know we
10:15got real problems and I'm kind of like
10:17hold on British and American spies
10:19helped super Hitler Stalin get the hbomb
10:23and the a bomb and we found out and we
10:26freaked out and it and it turned out
10:29that even I mean it was kind of funny
10:30like reading the oppenheim book you know
10:32for for example to be kind of like he
10:34wasn't he I believe he was a loyal
10:36American but if you look at all the the
10:39constellation of people around him it's
10:41kind of like well I can understand why
10:42people were a little freaked out his
10:44wife was a former communist his brother
10:45was a former communist he he he even
10:47admitted to being to working at every to
10:49being part of like every Communist front
10:51group like on the western Seaboard and
10:53it's kind of like yeah that you know
10:55what they did to him to be clear was
10:56unfair but from the perspective of is
10:59this like should I be worried about
11:00something there was plenty of reason to
11:01be worried in the 50s so a very real
11:04threat first time in history by the way
11:06that technology could destroy the entire
11:08species and we just gave it to a guy
11:10with a with it you know at least as evil
11:13as Hitler well and that was also a
11:15period from a Communications perspective
11:18right which is the birth of radio and so
11:20you have this kind of mass dissemination
11:22of information that can happen in a
11:24totally new way you know you could say
11:26like all these totalitarians come out of
11:28the birth of radio
11:29well 100% And but so and that's me
11:33skipping over the definition um and the
11:36AR basically are very deceptively simple
11:38um uh definition is the period us uh the
11:42uptick in campaigns to get people fired
11:44deplatformed or otherwise punished uh
11:45for speech that would be protected um in
11:48by the first amendment in other contexts
11:50really here we're talking more about an
11:51employment context um that's a way of
11:53working in a lot of nuance uh that began
11:56around 2017 and accelerated around 2017
11:59and we don't have this in the definition
12:00but super accelerated around 2020 um and
12:04that that makes it a period because it
12:06wasn't subtle uh for those of us who do
12:08Free Speech uh who work in free speech
12:10that something changed around 2014 and
12:12it was the same phenomena that brought
12:14us to WR coddling the American mind yes
12:16but you know coddling is about the um
12:19shifts and the attitudes among young
12:21people and about the you you know
12:23psychological um uh Devastation that
12:25that we saw coming but didn't neither me
12:29or height expected to be quite this bad
12:32um but uh cancelling is really all about
12:34when that weird phenomena that we
12:36started seeing people losing their jobs
12:39over their opinions and this was
12:40something that was only capable due to
12:43social the existence of social media you
12:45couldn't create the appearance of a
12:48giant angry mob that actually mattered
12:50when you were just mailing angry letters
12:52to you know Seattle whatever you need
12:54the super accelerant of uh the Twitter
12:57social Twitter and Facebook and and the
12:59like yeah and and the ability to
13:02organize and then of course you know
13:03people having like instantaneously you
13:06know just on just on
13:08emotion and uh one thing that we were
13:10really trying to be clear like in in in
13:13the book one of the reasons why we
13:14decided to write the book and when I say
13:15we I mean me and Ricky Schlott I have a
13:1823-year-old absolutely brilliant
13:20co-author on this she does a great job
13:21on the audio book too oh great yeah yeah
13:24she she has a good voice she um uh she
13:27read coddling that's that's how we got
13:29introduced to her she was she was a fan
13:30of it and we originally thinking hey we
13:32should write a followup to to coddling
13:34the American mind that focuses more on
13:36the um issues faced by jenzy young women
13:39since since it is from the genz young
13:41woman point of view since so much of
13:43coddling is about harms especially
13:45experienced by jenz young women but as
13:47we were getting we were talking about it
13:49I was still dealing with people who were
13:50trying to tell me cancel culture wasn't
13:52even real and I'm like right do you and
13:55and I I there are all these people who
13:56suddenly become like experts on the
13:58history your freedom of speech who were
13:59kind of like well those sound like small
14:01numbers I'm like there were like a dozen
14:03people prosecuted under the Sedition Act
14:05we now know it was more like 50 but
14:07still for most of the history we thought
14:08it was one of the shame most shameful
14:09marks on our C like in our free speech
14:12history and it was like 12 to 14 with
14:14like 10 actual convictions right um and
14:17and McCarthy's like somewhere between 60
14:19and 100 right yeah uh so so McCarthy is
14:21I mean I think now with a lot of time to
14:24look back at The Archives it might be
14:25close somewhere between 100 maybe 140 or
14:28something like like that um but we're
14:30talking about more professors fired now
14:32and we're still in the middle of it um
14:34and at a time where back then the law
14:36wasn't clear that you couldn't fire
14:38professors for being communists like
14:40basically like the argument that that
14:41and what you're referring to with the 60
14:43there was a giant study done right
14:45towards the end of McCarthyism yeah and
14:47they found about 62 63 um uh professors
14:51who were fired specifically for being
14:53communist um about 90 who are fired for
14:56beliefs overall uh kind of round round
14:58it up to 100 and and I do think that the
15:00number is somewhat larger uh but but now
15:03we're talking about nearly 200
15:04professors you know fired we're talking
15:06about a thousand professor over a
15:08thousand professors targeted we're
15:09talking about two-thirds of those being
15:11punished in some way and we know it's an
15:13insane undercount because one in six
15:15professors said they've been they've
15:17been threatened uh with punishment or
15:19actually investigated for their one in
15:22six 9% of students say that they've been
15:25investigated for their speech as well um
15:27I mean that's these are insane numbers
15:29and it's happening in a time where the
15:31law is now clear that you can't do this
15:34um at least at a public school um at
15:36Bound by the First Amendment uh where
15:38Viewpoint diversity is practically
15:40non-existent um among the preface orate
15:43and there are departments that literally
15:44have no conservatives whatsoever it just
15:46it makes you wonder like how are they
15:48finding so many Heretics to burn at this
15:49point um they keep re it's it's a kind
15:52of refining filter you get to the place
15:55where you know someone that looks even
15:57ever so slightly different different
15:58than you thinks exactly the same things
16:02oh oh we got one we slightly disagree
16:04someone here is a heretic um I want to
16:07there's so much to unpack and there's
16:09some areas I actually I want to take
16:11time to like push on with you here
16:13because it's very it's very interesting
16:15and challenging um how to think about
16:18why this is happening in a country where
16:19the laws have actually strengthened
16:21number one we are technically I think
16:23legally the most free speech protective
16:26Society on the planet beyond a shadow of
16:28a doubt by a large margin it's in our
16:30first amendment yeah we seem to be the
16:32exporter of this poison MH
16:34philosophically intellectually uh so
16:37that's also weird not solely not so
16:40maybe okay the anglosphere but I think
16:41we're we're the Vanguard um so I want to
16:45just go FR Fredy likes to say uh in
16:47general bad ideas start in California
16:48and proceed
16:50outward it's not entirely there's some
16:52good ones you know I like Apple I like
16:54Apple technology but okay I want to talk
16:57about a couple a lot of bad ideas
17:00too this is true all right 2014 take me
17:04to that moment why is 2014 Special well
17:07I mean all of coddling the American mind
17:09is trying to figure out why 2014 is
17:10special we talk about six caal causal
17:12threads that kind of come to a head in
17:142014 and and and what was happening
17:17there that you and John height both
17:20observed that you were like something's
17:22happening the ground has shifted yeah
17:24what's going on well the the thing that
17:26made made us made me fire my
17:29organization the foundation for
17:30individual rights and expression um who
17:32defends freedom of speech we um noticed
17:35that uh just students were showing up
17:37and demanding um new speech codes were
17:39demanding deplatforming in a way that
17:42they just hadn't been for you know fire
17:44will be will have been around for 25
17:46years as of next year our entire history
17:49students were always the best
17:50constituency for free speech yeah the
17:52sort of California Berkeley
17:54anti-vietnam Free Speech don't tread on
17:57me you're the man kind of thing thing
17:58yeah and we thought that that was going
18:00to be um you know and we just thought
18:03that was a stable fact and then suddenly
18:05the students were the ones demanding the
18:06censorship now I always want to be clear
18:08here that doesn't mean that the
18:09administrators who used to be kind of
18:11the the bad guys when it came to freedom
18:12of speech until like
18:142013 suddenly stopped actually one of
18:17the dirty little secrets of how it got
18:18worse on campus is that administrators
18:20are like hey you guys want to shut down
18:22speech awesome hey you know like I think
18:25we should we should shout this guy down
18:27um that that there's there there there's
18:29some parasitism so what to call it some
18:32symbiosis no parasites Fair yeah
18:34parasites completely accurate uh okay so
18:38codling lays out these this set a lot of
18:41which is about parenting and psychology
18:43Y and that it starts before they get to
18:46their college campus Because I think
18:47that's one of the things that your that
18:50codling almost singularly brought to the
18:52table into the conversation was everyone
18:55was focused especially right Rangers
18:56like college is a bunch of communist
18:59this is the problem your professor
19:00turning you into a jerk but the kids are
19:03showing up like little jerks and
19:05shouting down their professors and
19:06throwing temper chants like their
19:08infants they think they they they think
19:10they're showing up like little Heroes
19:12yeah but they're like emotionally
19:13stunted by at least three years they
19:15basically show up so you know really
19:17quick summarize like what is the I can't
19:20to Quick you got we got a lot to come
19:22took me took me 100,000 words to write a
19:24book no for coddling so what was what
19:27was that set of things that you you know
19:29honed in on for for coddling we talk
19:32about six different causal threads one
19:33of them um you know is obviously the
19:35most important one is social media the
19:36other one is political polarization we
19:38talk about the parenting factors one
19:40lack of free play was the one we were
19:42the most kind of surprised that we had a
19:44whole chapter on helicopter
19:45overprotective parenting yeah paranoid
19:47parenting why campuses um hyper
19:50bureaucratization and Ideology Now so so
19:53we want to be clear we think like
19:54ideology is there it's just one out of
19:55six reasons and we've actually added to
19:57it that we thought we didn't hit hard
19:59enough in the parenting chapters about
20:01the weird unhealthy you know um com
20:05compact we seem to have with parents
20:07that if you can get your kids into the
20:09fancy schools yeah you're set for life
20:11but if you can't you might you might
20:13sink down to the middle classes and
20:15things aren't that great there did you
20:16come across Hara Morano's a nation of
20:19wimps along the way I am familiar with
20:22it but I haven't read it so I
20:24interviewed her as part of that early
20:25film project and she was the earliest
20:29perhaps Canary and the Coline yeah
20:31because she she she uh was is a was is
20:35or was a writer she was at the time a
20:36writer at Psychology today she somehow
20:38got onto an email thread with college
20:41campus Mental Health Center people like
20:45you know some you know uset group yeah
20:47in which they were all talking about how
20:49they're suddenly being overrun with
20:52students coming to them and this was in
20:53like this was I I can't remember the
20:56exact time frame but it was in in the
20:58earlier 2000s yeah and and what I heard
21:01from Julie lethan hes is something the
21:03kids started showing up like this in
21:052001 yes that's what it was it was right
21:07around then add social media to the mix
21:11um and and this is one of the things
21:12that that that that differs coddling
21:14from uh cancelling um when it comes to
21:17cancel culture that's not a product of
21:19of of parenting that's a product of what
21:23happens when you leave when you give a
21:25super power technology to the
21:28the sort of Mean Girls culture of of
21:30Junior High that the and by that you
21:32mean
21:33Harvard unfortunately I mean actually I
21:35mean our entire Society basically I feel
21:38like we we all argue like a junior high
21:40school now because we have learned how
21:43to argue from Junior High School
21:45students and we didn't revise
21:47that so this is coming together this um
21:53overprotected set of kids who didn't go
21:55outside and play who didn't like have
21:58the time to make up games and figure out
22:01like oh if I'm too much of a jerk nobody
22:03wants to play with me because their
22:05entire schedule is structured and
22:07supervised by authority figures and then
22:09school sucks and it's just authoritarian
22:11so then that's going on yeah they're
22:13already losing their minds so to speak
22:16in in the early 2000s like and I I say
22:20that's insensitive you know they're
22:22experiencing very difficult challenges
22:25that they didn't need to be experiencing
22:28to the extent that they were yeah and
22:30then Along Comes Facebook and Instagram
22:32and and and Twitter and supercharge
22:34charges all of that yep so 2014 what is
22:38starting to happen there 2014 is when
22:39Gen Z starts hitting a college in large
22:42numers and if you look at kind of a lot
22:44of the thread here um and height and I
22:47height and I watch this uh is you can
22:49see you know 2013 2014 gen Z starts
22:52hitting uh hitting campus and then um
22:55when you start seeing a lot more
22:57cancellations going on corporations it's
22:59like 2018 2019 when they when they've
23:00been graduating you know and they're
23:02young young at these places so it does
23:04tend to follow uh genz um unfortunately
23:08now in the book you also say and I've
23:11seen this because it's very easy to pile
23:12on genen Z especially like I'm 46 I'm
23:15like a gen xer oh and one thing I that
23:17my co-author like is always always tries
23:20to be fair about um they hate cancel
23:22culture gen Z hates cancel culture more
23:24than any other group and that's
23:25partially because they grew up with it
23:26and they know how nasty it is and it's
23:27funny because like the like kind of the
23:29only people who are really um on mosque
23:32kind of like okay with cancel culture
23:36Millennials can we all agree Millennials
23:38are actually the worst can we just and
23:41Gen X is the best yes Gen X we there was
23:43a great video by um uh one of the N
23:48stats that was about the fourth turning
23:50and he basically at the end of it is
23:52like it's on us as gen xers to solve the
23:55problem it always is though we won't get
23:57any credit for it because boomers are
23:59egomaniacs and no actually I've noticed
24:01this that there's a lot of talk of
24:03Boomers and then Gen X is like
24:05completely erased from history now it's
24:07like it goes Boomers and then
24:09Millennials and and Jen and genen z are
24:11the only people ever talked about in
24:13this generational stuff The Secret of
24:16being cool is never demanding that
24:17people look at you you just have to hang
24:19out with and Gen X is cool we are just
24:22hanging out in the corner with Ethan
24:23Hawk and Monona Ryder fixing
24:26stuff we're enjoying remakes of uh of of
24:30um Karate Kid as adults playing with our
24:32Legos and just leave us the hell
24:35alone um okay so that's 2014 jenz hits
24:40college starts going crazy starts
24:42yelling at Yale professors because they
24:45think maybe the school shouldn't dictate
24:47what Halloween costumes are at the
24:49bureaucratic level to be clear that
24:50whole thing like that was part of a
24:53semester long campaign at like 100
24:55Schools across the country where the
24:57formula was find something to be
24:59offended about and then demand something
25:00to be done um this happened at
25:02University of mass Massachusetts Amherst
25:04where they demanded that a newspaper get
25:06uh get defunded for having daring to
25:08write an article basically saying cops
25:10can be good people too this happened to
25:12Claremont McKenna as we talked about in
25:14um in coddling to a student who was
25:17trying to say no but really you are part
25:19of the community
25:20to didn't use didn't phrase it like
25:23perfectly but still like that she ended
25:25up in a you know kind of Mau struggle uh
25:27Circle and of course the the Yale uh
25:30situation where what Erica cacus
25:32actually wrote was an old-fashioned
25:35defense of are who are we to actually be
25:37telling students to do this they can
25:38figure this stuff out on their own and
25:40by the way the way they're going to
25:41figure this out is a bunch of students
25:43saying hey dude your costume's offensive
25:45and then they probably won't wear it but
25:47it doesn't require official intervention
25:49um by the university to be involved and
25:51it's sort of inappropriate for it too it
25:54was defending students autonomy um but
25:57then it was of course uncharitably
25:59interpreted as as and I've watched
26:01actual Yale professors claim there like
26:03well you have this professor out there
26:05saying that people showed on Clan robes
26:07I'm kind of like wow you are really
26:09spinning this like no it's it's crazy
26:11like like like the the attempt to
26:13rewrite what happened with Nicholas and
26:15Eric stus is outrageous including um I I
26:19can't remember the the the former head
26:21of the um former head of the the
26:23Democratic party like that had like a a
26:26Twitter fight with with him and him and
26:27Nicholas because he was misrepresenting
26:30um the guy who did the oh uh um Howard
26:34Dean yeah yeah okay yeah Jinx yay um the
26:38uh and it was it was embarrassing of all
26:40the people to be like not a cancel
26:43culture Warrior the guy whose
26:44presidential campaign gets gets uh
26:47destroyed for being over miked at a
26:49rally while he screams Yeehaw yeah he he
26:53he he he he was just repeating kind of
26:56like the the the underground Yale spin
26:58on what had actually happened there that
27:00was completely inaccurate to to the
27:01actual event because they're rightfully
27:03embarrassed by it but they but since
27:04they're you know in the they're in the
27:07epistemic driver seat you know they're
27:09like oh but we can you write history
27:10history isn't written by the uh by The
27:12Victors it's written by a Yale graduate
27:14it's it's it's written by The Barbarians
27:17who win really it's like can I kill you
27:20or silence you with threat of force and
27:22then I get to write the history book
27:23Rich Yale
27:25legacies you're you're acting like
27:27there's a distinction there um I'm going
27:29to argue over the course of this
27:30conversation that perhaps there is not
27:33um so 2017 yes is this all is this
27:39social media and coddled
27:42like infantile
27:45kids run up against Trump and
27:49then Hell Breaks Loose to the next
27:52degree and we go one more level down in
27:54Dante's Inferno like what makes 2017 the
27:56thing definitely Trump um that
27:58essentially and I I can't remember who
28:00exactly wrote this but um Yasha monk
28:02talks about it you know like the idea
28:04that sort of like the inability to do
28:05anything about Trump just got sort of
28:07cannibalize your own tribe that being
28:09said 2017 was going to be a bad year
28:12kind of like I I think on campus even
28:14without Trump I don't think it would
28:15have been as bad of a year because
28:16people wouldn't quite have lost their
28:18mind but the trajectory was it would
28:20have been something um in in 2017 I
28:23think it might also be and I tend to
28:25forget about this is that 17 is Trump
28:28but then in the several years prior you
28:31have these different sort of you know
28:34racially charged events Ferguson and and
28:37whatnot and Trayvon Martin and so there
28:40is a you know black lives M matter is
28:43formed I think 2015 yeah so there's
28:47already this like rapidly Rising like
28:50identity politics sort
28:53of thing Happ I'm inclined to call it
28:56bad names and I will but for now I'm
28:57just going to call it a thing yeah right
28:59so how much of that um is part of
29:03feeding 2017 that Trump then just poils
29:06o oil gas on the fire it it it's a
29:09polarization spiral as as me and height
29:11call it um that essentially and this is
29:13the thing that makes me frustrated when
29:15people like just you know when they want
29:16to talk about just the right and the
29:17left in complete isolation I'm like what
29:19do you think they're reacting to right
29:22um because I one something that ended up
29:23not being in the book in codling the
29:25American mind that I kind of wish we
29:27kept in there was I I'm not I'm I'm I'm
29:30not a fan of trump um the the I'm sorry
29:33to your your listeners and readers who
29:34might be but I I'm personally not um and
29:38I so I wanted his opponent to win even
29:40though I wasn't her biggest fan um I
29:42remember two weeks maybe before the
29:45election at Berkeley um so 2016 a bunch
29:49of students linked arm in-arm and
29:52wouldn't let white students get through
29:55unless they could show that they were
29:57trans or gay or something that made them
29:59you know they had to have some other
30:00intersection in the yeah the wheels of
30:03of intersectional hierarchy that
30:05undergrads now get forced to look at as
30:08part of their gen Ed requirements all
30:10caught on tape um you know and they have
30:13to you know go like go around um in
30:15order not to like anyway and I you know
30:21watching this I'm like okay this is
30:23wrong and racist and messed up and by
30:26the way do you want Trump to win like
30:29that because this was all over Fox News
30:31and it was real and it was happening at
30:32Berkeley and it's kind of like wow that
30:35you guys have lost the thread this is
30:37this is nuts so a lot of people you know
30:39they sometimes we'll talk about sort of
30:41wokeism coming from Trump and I'm like
30:43no actually to a degree sort of like
30:45what might be I actually you know you
30:47know what term I prefer to wokeism Tim
30:50Tim Urban's social justice
30:51fundamentalism CU I think it that's that
30:53sounds Bel right yeah I they're closer
30:56to actual jihadis that
30:59simply I I mean I think you know we're
31:02here it's October it's 2023 I think that
31:04analogy is quite apt frankly well
31:06sometimes they're really into jihadis
31:08they're like they like them put them on
31:09their t-shirts these guys are swell um
31:12lately that's what it seems to feel like
31:15anyway that's for f for further down so
31:18these things um they always play in
31:20reaction to each other and I definitely
31:21think that the Trump phenomena was at
31:23least in part you know a reaction the
31:24left and the left reacted to Trump and
31:26and then it just feeds into this
31:28ridiculous polarization spiral so 2017
31:31one of the things that was really
31:32notable about 2017 in the data is that
31:35prior to we should really be counting
31:37the professor cancellations probably
31:39starting in 2017 because that's when you
31:41see the real acceleration of students
31:44finally saying I'm going to sign a
31:46professor a a a petition to get my
31:49professor punished or fired even in many
31:51in many of those petitions which was
31:53just not normal in most of my career it
31:56wasn't that that students weren't mad at
31:58professors they were mad at professors
32:00all the time but they'd write an article
32:02about it or even or even like have a
32:03protest and not even all that often um
32:07but the whole additional step to I'm
32:10going to get you out of your job because
32:12we disagree that's nuts and and and
32:14unfortunately like I we just had a a
32:16fire faculty conference and we had a you
32:20know social science there who kind of
32:21dug into like what they're actually um
32:24why they actually think professors uh
32:26should be reported to the bias related
32:28incident program um and it's
32:30specifically about having wrong opinions
32:32like it's not like
32:33someone something racially offensive it
32:36it's like well you know it's not that uh
32:39he just opposes affirmative action you
32:40know like for for example like in a
32:42class and it's like that's um that's bad
32:46well it's
32:47all gosh it's so connected to so many
32:50things trying to trying to sort it it's
32:52one of the things even in even in the
32:54book which I must say now and and when
32:57we spoke on your way over from the
33:00airport there was steam coming out of my
33:02ears almost the whole time which is
33:04different than coddling and partly
33:06because the book is is littered with
33:09very specific case studies which you
33:11could say well that's anecdotal but then
33:13also then then the data then the macro
33:15data that says no that's this is an
33:17Exemplar of a broad Trend yeah there is
33:19one thing so you know we're talking
33:21about the sources here that you talk
33:24about in the book and I was surpris not
33:27I want to say I was surprised to see you
33:30call it out and that is the role
33:33philosophically of Herbert maruza oh
33:35sure yeah so um I've seen other people
33:38who are far more like right-wing in
33:41nature like James Lindsay and and
33:44Christopher rufo and others who say like
33:46this is we're living in in Herbert
33:48Marcus's world and fortunately we are so
33:52it was very interesting cuz when
33:53multiple people from multiple points of
33:55view all say n that's correct yeah it
33:57kind of cck and I say I feel pretty good
34:00about that not read all the work some to
34:03fle Nazi Germany showed up in the United
34:05States in the 1950s and thought it was
34:06the worst of all possible worlds which
34:08is just kind of like wow like that's
34:10pretty skewed so lay it out for for
34:12those that don't have never heard this
34:14name and I'm and I'm and I'm a convert
34:16on this because I'm definitely like you
34:18know thinkers don't move history as much
34:20as people think thinkers move history
34:22John mayard kees would disagree with you
34:25well and so when people say oh it's
34:27maruz I'm like it's probably a whole
34:29bunch of other forces um and meanwhile I
34:32still think that to a degree um that
34:34essentially like U since I think
34:36censorship is like a human instinct and
34:38particularly as something gets more
34:39politically um narrowed uh that
34:42essentially when you realize oh only
34:44people agree with me are going to be in
34:45power the Temptation becomes Relentless
34:48but going back and rereading um her so
34:51free speech movement 1964 anti-free
34:53speech movement 1965 Herbert Marcus's
34:56repressive uh tolerance and going back
34:58and rereading it and it's like I like
35:00I'm going to get myself in trouble with
35:02with a lot of these people who think
35:03he's like the This brilliant scholar
35:05because it's like he makes the argument
35:08and I I forgot how clearly he says we
35:11have to suppress the right wing like
35:13basically to have be truly free you know
35:15all that kind of stuff it's like the we
35:17have to force people to be free kind of
35:19kind of like only through the dictator
35:21can we truly be free like I will make
35:23you moral by pointing a gun at you
35:25forcing you to do the right thing then
35:27you'll be free really free in a way
35:29you've never you've been too frightened
35:30to be free now you're Mor I'm free yeah
35:33the no but what's his argument let's
35:35sorry sorry sorry um the the uh the
35:38argument is essentially that if you want
35:40to have a free and equal Society it
35:42can't actually be uh based on our
35:44current rules because there is the
35:47existence of the the repressive
35:49so-called right-wing so-called
35:50conservatives but very much calling out
35:52specifically the right um because he
35:55couldn't admit that actually you know
35:56being on the left was actually very
35:57popular at you see Santa Barbara where
35:59he was um you know at the time so he has
36:01to focus outwards because if he actually
36:02thought that there was some kind of
36:04asymmetry you know around him that would
36:06mean he'd have to be like oh I guess we
36:07need more conservatives um and he makes
36:10the argument that flat out that that the
36:13better society would be one that
36:14represses um regressive speech so it was
36:18it was it's very primitive in its
36:20thinking it's just kind of like the it's
36:22just this me good them bad me good them
36:24bad them no get stuff me get
36:27so okay so here's here's them go away
36:31here's a guy with sort of a barbaric
36:33worldview well he he he was pru even in
36:36the 1970s I mean like like he and how
36:40much what he was saying actually
36:41resembles the the world today um is is
36:45hard to avoid now it wouldn't have
36:47mattered as much if it wasn't uh if the
36:49torch wasn't carried by others um and he
36:51was a Marxist um uh thinker he he had he
36:54wanted to improve upon Marxism um so is
36:56that cuz again there's a lot there's a
36:59lot of people yeah a lot especially I am
37:02in this Camp I am very much a capitalist
37:04so when I see people talking about Marx
37:06and treating it like anything other than
37:08flat earther ISM I'm like well yeah pick
37:10up a history book but to give the
37:13Devil's Due still super popular got to
37:16contend with that yeah so maruza is a
37:20Marxist yeah he do he he proclaims I'm a
37:22Marxist yeah okay so so when he's
37:25looking at the word and saying me good
37:28you bad good is defined as Marxist uh
37:32for like like communist ideal good
37:35anti-communist bad he had he had a more
37:38more nuanced point of view he was he was
37:39critical of some aspects of Communism
37:41but the fact that he actually was still
37:42a fan of Mao show is not that critical
37:45um might have thought Russia got some
37:47things wrong um so executional
37:49differences aside yeah you know cultural
37:51revolution no problem yeah no more of
37:54that let's do that here yeah he thought
37:55marks had to be improved upon you know
37:57what who carries the torch uh Richard
37:59Delgado um you know who was one of the
38:02fathers of the speech codes movement um
38:04and one of the founders of critical race
38:06Theory now fire is a genuinely
38:07nonpartisan organization and we will
38:09defend professors right to teach uh CRT
38:13all day long because that's part of
38:14academic freedom but anytime people
38:17mention CRT the very first thing they
38:19should mention um when they're defending
38:21it is oh and by the way these are the
38:22people who who decided that enlightened
38:25censorship was the positive way of the
38:26future like these were the people who
38:28are advocating for censorship on campus
38:31since the 70s and succeeded in the ' 80s
38:33and '90s and who we have to thank for
38:36the shift against um a a radical belief
38:41in freedom of speech what I mean and
38:43that moment I sometimes joke that there
38:44might have been a perfect week in like
38:451977 when the old censorship hadn't uh
38:48uh had stopped and the new censorship
38:50hadn't be begun the interregnum between
38:53McCarthyism and the sort of new left
38:56yeah maoists yeah like oh I can kind of
38:58say whatever I want this week is great
39:01Star Wars came out you like that was it
39:04that must have been the week it was like
39:05Star Wars I'm assuming it was like May
39:081977 and the the year of my birth I'm
39:12telling you that's what it was the uh uh
39:14so and it got taken up by people who who
39:17fully you know admit to being marxists
39:19like the um and that they really
39:22fundamentally disagree with liberalism
39:24and a lot of things about the liberal
39:25order and about um and by liberalism
39:29they mean things like freedom of speech
39:32um liberalism broadly defined which is
39:34legal equality aspects of democracy etc
39:37etc um even though we disagree a lot um
39:40on on a number of solutions you know I
39:42thought Chris rufo's book on this was
39:44actually really quite good and and it
39:45pointed you know uh about how how poorly
39:49thought out a lot of the stuff was but
39:52as and but it was able to be successful
39:56all already by the mid 80s so the first
39:58grade age of political correctness is
40:001985 to 1995 who decided this me um but
40:04but it's partially from looking at the
40:06looking at the history yeah well it's
40:07like that happens and then you get Bill
40:08Mah's first TV show so it's this all
40:11makes sense and universities passed
40:13speech codes um there was a big speech
40:15code movement uh and students thought
40:18this was the way of the future
40:19administrators of course thought it was
40:22you can read about a lot of these
40:23stories in kind of like the founding
40:25book for fire which is called the shadow
40:27University um by Alan Charles Kors and
40:29Harvey silverglate who are the two
40:30founders of fire I want to take one step
40:32back just for a minute which is the the
40:34one other piece I I understand to be
40:36part of what Herbert maruza was looking
40:38at because you said hey he comes here
40:39from Germany I like what's this hell
40:42hole with all this Prosperity wor places
40:45and like ever increasing civil rights
40:48right before my very eyes yeah um but
40:52that there was a strategic piece yeah
40:55which was hm as a Marxist it seems kind
40:59of like a problem that capitalism keeps
41:01making workers richer yeah so and
41:04correct me if I'm wrong but this is my
41:05understanding of his argument he's upset
41:07that the proletariat's doing well in
41:10America proletariat aren't enamored with
41:13us and they can't seem to win over the
41:14proletariat proletariat seem to want to
41:16you know punch professors sometimes yeah
41:18they they don't they don't like us they
41:19don't like they're like buying houses
41:22and being happy and coming home from the
41:23war and doing better we think we're lazy
41:25and snoody
41:27yeah we're a bunch of jerks so but look
41:31at all these like super activated young
41:34people on college campuses and then look
41:36at this like Black Panther Movement and
41:38and so they're like we it seems like the
41:41Proto version of like the
41:44bipo thing we can't win the proletariat
41:47but we let's reconstruct it along
41:49identity lines we get the young
41:51intellectuals um and we can get what he
41:53very sensitively referred to as the
41:55ghetto population yeah of course which
41:57would get him canceled on a campus today
41:59he's in good company with the with
42:01people that look at others in that in
42:04that way as instrumental he's in Good
42:06Company yeah um but I I mean I think you
42:08should have reflected long on why do the
42:10proletarians hate us now is that
42:13something is that
42:14me yeah yeah maybe I shouldn't call my
42:17allies the ghetto population that might
42:19be a good place to start I don't know
42:23they're not in the room with us though
42:24yeah so okay so it it was in many ways
42:28very strategic and very tactical now of
42:29course I feeds right into this critical
42:31theory crowd that comes later absolutely
42:34um and that was something that you know
42:36words that wound the original article I
42:38believe was written in 1980 and this was
42:39Richard Delgado and I forget who the
42:42other co-authors were recommending
42:44speech codes the book which came out in
42:46196 1994 I think had Kimberly crenchaw
42:50on it Richard dogado Mary metsudo the
42:52whole the whole crew Kimberly kensaw is
42:55um mapping the margins mapping the
42:57margins intersectional intersectional
42:59intersectionality which I think actually
43:00has we talk about in codling we actually
43:01think has some reasonable insights and I
43:03have seen her quoted sense where she's
43:04like that's not what I meant you know by
43:07a lot of the stuff so but also I think a
43:09self- admitted Marxist like I think that
43:11is oh yeah Richard dogado said that very
43:13you know you know very very clearly um
43:16which always kind of blew me away that
43:17there wasn't a re-evaluation of that you
43:20Burling wall falling all the dead bodies
43:22in the history of it all seems like
43:23should have looked at that maybe maybe
43:25maybe there an error in there so Okay so
43:28we've got this sort of uh I think
43:30everybody feels like oh yeah well
43:32college campuses are filled with sort of
43:33like wide-eyed utopians that think we
43:36can bring about heaven on Earth i' hate
43:38giving people though who kind who think
43:40that the problem is an excess of human
43:43Freedom off that easy though I'm just an
43:45idealist I just think the leader should
43:47be in charge like like like by the
43:50leader I mean me or people like me yeah
43:53or people who like me you know like the
43:56uh yeah no
43:58it's the authoritarian sort of instinct
44:02you know um it has to be based on
44:05contempt
44:07for people at large that essentially
44:10people are too stupid yes um to rule
44:13themselves that they are too backwards
44:14or some group of people are too stupid
44:16or too backwards they're deplorables
44:19perhaps nobody has written the book The
44:21deplorables versus the unsuffer bles um
44:23and and I'm and I'm kind of surprised
44:25that book hasn't come out but someone
44:26needs to write that I'll say I I am not
44:30a super huge fan of Donald Trump
44:32personally I think he's it's it's he's
44:34like a symptom of and I actually waited
44:36tables at Trump Marina in high school
44:39college terrible waiter I was a good
44:41cook so uh you you actually mentioned in
44:43the book that waiting tables is a really
44:45good oh yeah 100%
44:47so nice way to meet waitresses that's
44:50true you know in Atlantic City you got
44:53to be a little more
44:54discerning but so why do I bring that up
44:58because okay deplorables you've got this
45:00Left Right ltic City's terrible hey the
45:02borata is pretty good um we come we come
45:06back we've got this intellectual
45:08movement we've got this first wave of of
45:11like political
45:13correctness I we come up to 2017 and
45:16Trump yeah and it's this supercharger
45:18but but Trump like is weird right
45:21because he's like otherwise like a
45:22lifelong Democrat yeah and is like a TV
45:26show like everything about Trump is just
45:28weird and he's unpresidential and UNC
45:30and like kind of like a barbarian
45:32himself but he calls people out who act
45:35like barbarians and that's pretty
45:37appealing that's appealing to me it's
45:39maybe it's just the jersey in me but
45:40it's like yeah I kind of like how hard
45:42he punches so I have a mixed feeling
45:44about him I think he's a symptom of a
45:46bigger picture going on y so let's let's
45:50come into where we are now sure and what
45:53is happening on college campus
45:54everything's fine
45:56fine and peaceful and nothing yeah yeah
45:59abely yeah they're they're just fighting
46:01for the people um so we had the bad luck
46:04of our book coming out the you know
46:07right in the middle of the uh horrible
46:10terrorist attacks from Hamas just
46:12absolutely you know horrific and I mean
46:15bad luck just in the sense it's kind of
46:16hard to get anyone to pay attention to
46:18anything else you know like like so but
46:20there are a lot of free speech issues
46:22you know around what's going on like
46:24since since the Hamas attack but a lot
46:26of times they're not really what you
46:27think it's been kind of funny uh to see
46:32people suddenly discover that
46:36consequence culture or accountability
46:39culture the people who made the same
46:40argument they're finding their names on
46:42you know lists of people not to hire
46:44because they signed the the Harvard
46:46letter um and saying you know it's
46:49entirely Israel's fault you know right
46:51so just for context right uh cuz uh I
46:55spent the week looking at this pretty
46:56carefully Hamas attacks Israeli
46:59civilians on October 7th and that night
47:03children yeah yeah going around raping
47:06and killing and kidnapping innocent
47:07people who in their homes at Music
47:10Festival just absolutely heinous and
47:12barbaric and unjustifiable on any ground
47:14not not acts of War these are all these
47:17are not two military forces if if it was
47:19war these are all war crimes yeah like
47:21all war crimes all like you know off to
47:23the heg for you yeah if you were a
47:25legitimate fighter of some kind yeah
47:27leaving aside the the broader Israel
47:31Palestine all of that let's leave that
47:33aside that night 30 plus
47:37organizations immediately published
47:39including like amnesty Internationals
47:41Harvard chapter was it yeah that's not
47:43that's not a letter saying this is
47:45essentially entirely Israel's fault and
47:48all violence that comes from this is all
47:51on the part of the Israeli regime and
47:52the apide this and that like this is
47:55before there was a response this is this
47:57is just like oh what is there 1400 dead
47:59Jews that's all the Jews fault it's like
48:02blame the victim on a massacre scale
48:06yeah and
48:08then the rest of the western world and
48:10Elite colleges all kind of join in to
48:12celebrate that is what it seemed like
48:14yeah like all around the country and
48:16around the world there was a lot of
48:18there was I think they thought that it
48:20was going to be very well received
48:22because and I try to point out
48:24University presidents not being willing
48:26after the Hamas attacks to actually say
48:30and because I I I I know a lot about a
48:33lot of University presidents I I know a
48:34lot of them are very pro-israel and and
48:36were must have been utterly disgusted I
48:39mean like as human being must be with
48:41with the barbarism of the of the Hamas
48:43attacks them being unwilling to say
48:47something condemning the attacks
48:49immediately afterwards um whereas they
48:52talked about every other issue from
48:54Ukraine you know coning the invasion of
48:57Ukraine to uh to anything related to
48:59Black lives matter even like relatively
49:00small ones and this this horrifying
49:03thing where where they have students who
49:04have families over there you know and
49:07and a lot of a lot of schools showed
49:08real unwillingness to say anything about
49:10it and if they did they talked about
49:12like violence on both sides very
49:15measured and and equivocating which they
49:17were not on any of the other social
49:19justice isues no that's the product of
49:21cancel culture because they were those
49:23University presidents were afraid of
49:26their own students their own
49:28administrators and their own faculty not
49:30all of them just the ones who actually
49:33um you don't want to get into an
49:35argument about Israel versus Palestine
49:37like basically like but that's kind of a
49:39Dogma on a lot of these campuses and so
49:43and if you're reaching the point where
49:44University presidents are afraid in this
49:46case to say what they really think um
49:49and have to be you know sort of coaxed
49:51into it by Angry donors and people you
49:53know principal people like Larry Summers
49:56something has gone very very wrong and
49:57by the way I also think that those
49:59students Harvard students actually
50:02believing that this would be you know
50:04not not received with a with a huge
50:07backlash that's partially cancel culture
50:09too because Jewish students and prois
50:11Israel students were kind of afraid to
50:13disagree with this group so they never
50:14actually got the moment of being like
50:16maybe this is a little extreme to say
50:18that they you know the were right so
50:21that is how I understand the most
50:24fundamental argument for radical free
50:27speech is
50:29that so you have thisp knowing right you
50:32have this group they come out make a
50:35really radical fundamentally
50:37indefensible statement but the way we
50:39know if that's indefensible is someone
50:42else gets to come along and do verbal
50:45peaceful combat with that idea and they
50:48duke it out in the Public Square and
50:50they and everyone else gets to judge by
50:53watching the arguments Made Who makes a
50:56stronger argument but that's and I I
50:58would think in a world like that Harvard
51:01being more measured makes would make
51:03sense yeah right it's like okay look
51:04we're not going to put our finger on the
51:06scale the way we had every week prior to
51:09the for every single other thing that's
51:10social justice that's remotely related
51:12to now we've got neutrality and Free
51:14Speech right and that seems like the
51:16that's how I read the problem is it's
51:18just completely I think cliff asnis on
51:21Twitter um who was a big donor to
51:23University of Penn and basically said
51:24I'm I'm out I'm out it was like it's all
51:27asymmetrical it's it's asymmetrical um
51:29and and a lot of it these These are
51:31opinions that are popular with
51:33administrators um and that's one of the
51:34reasons why fire has been screaming at
51:36the top of our lungs you know a less
51:38bureaucratized University would be a
51:39more free University because you you the
51:43extent to which these shout Downs are
51:45sometimes which cancel culture is
51:47actually pushed Along by Dei
51:50administrators is something that happens
51:51in case after case I didn't actually
51:53realize that uh because I was at the the
51:55the cacus shout down I was actually
51:57going to videotape the cacus realiz that
52:00so that video of the of like this is our
52:02home you're making our home unsafe it's
52:04like no it's Yale what are you talking
52:06about it's like our home that was me
52:07because I was videotaping it to show
52:09that he kept his cool because I believed
52:12his his job would be on the line um if
52:14it was just he said she said and then
52:17when I found out that the Yale student
52:19newspaper I was told by a reporter was
52:22going to cuz they had they videotaped
52:23the whole thing by the way that they
52:25were going to publish their own edited
52:28video to try to make Nicholas look like
52:30he did something wrong I'm like okay you
52:32I I have no choice I I have to actually
52:34publish this now because I want to show
52:36that he showed preder natural calm
52:39um in the face of what was really like a
52:43deeply threatening psychotic mob yeah
52:46angry group of of people around him oh
52:49there were Dei administrators in that
52:50crowd I didn't realize that um that with
52:53Carol hooven who who Harvard um who oh
52:56by the way kind of like oh Harvard
52:57discovered Free Speech now um and so
53:01Claud and gay she came out she's the new
53:02president of Harvard she's the new the
53:04new president of Harvard she came out
53:06when her first talk actually involved a
53:08really good statement about freedom of
53:10speech was that entirely voluntary I
53:12don't know um her school finished dead
53:15last in the fire rankings this year
53:17which they actually had to admit were
53:18based on really good science um at after
53:21a while and so she did say one good
53:23thing about Free Speech before that
53:25but then of course yeah and then of
53:27course she after this you know after
53:29this she says good things on on free
53:32speech again and but of course like the
53:33hows of like isn't this convenient oh
53:36but sorry I was getting to the the uh
53:38last thing that happened in Harvard so
53:39as far as like a great example of like
53:42the atmosphere for free speech uh prior
53:44to this carol Hoin she's an evolutionary
53:47biologist um she wrote a wonderful book
53:49called testosterone about how test
53:51testosterone affects you on every level
53:54you're getting into the biology we're
53:55not allowed to have yeah you're getting
53:57into stuff what is this what is this
53:58what is this no no she went on TV to
54:00talk about her book okay and uh and she
54:04was tried to be as compassionate as she
54:05could she was like we should be
54:06compassionate towards trans people we
54:08should be his understandings we should
54:09even use their pronouns like she really
54:11bent over backwards to try to show how
54:12compassionate she was being but then
54:14said but biological sex is a fact and it
54:16it's it's it's it's real and
54:19T at Harvard a Dei administrator you
54:22know calls her out and suddenly students
54:24are boycotting her class and they won't
54:26be her ta and they're signing petitions
54:28to get her punished uh and her friends
54:30turn on her some some of them do some of
54:32them come to her quietly and say you
54:35know we're P pulling for you which
54:36happens all the time in these instances
54:38I I won't say this publicly but I I'm so
54:41sorry what's happening I'm going to sign
54:43the petition for you to be fired but in
54:45private I'm that really happens that
54:48really happens all the time I signed it
54:50cuz I didn't feel like I and it's like
54:52it's really I'm really the victim here I
54:54had to sign the petition my disgusting
54:56repulsive cowardice is really what makes
54:59me the tragic character in the story
55:01yeah exactly otherwise I'd look bad on
55:03Twitter or something um and so she got
55:07incredibly depressed in an interview she
55:10said she actually had Su suicidal
55:11ideation for the first time in her life
55:13and she eventually left Harvard you know
55:15over this that's not a great atmosphere
55:17for free speech and academic freed and
55:19what should have happened if you know if
55:21you're going to be making statements at
55:23all they should be things about things
55:25in your own Community like this
55:27professor has academic freedom and
55:28freedom of speech and you know the idea
55:30that kind of like we're going to do
55:33anything to establish an Orthodoxy
55:34around that is nuts so okay so suddenly
55:36I'm supposed to believe that Harvard has
55:38discovered free speech um and and these
55:40other schools are now saying that
55:41they're discovering political neutrality
55:44and it's like no you're not um the now I
55:47no I want to be clear uh fire has
55:51welcomed them saying good things on free
55:52speech um and we actually think
55:54politically neutrality is the right way
55:56to go um for universities like the like
55:58the um 1967 Calvin statement uh that
56:01came out of the University of Chicago
56:03which basically says we actually we
56:05can't actually take positions on all
56:07these big Global things without
56:09establishing an Orthodoxy um from the
56:12top down no no kidding you know like and
56:14you've been doing this for a really long
56:16time but the people saying really now
56:18I'm I'm 100% with and I'm also like and
56:21also just don't buy it because it I've
56:24you know my I started right after 911 at
56:27fire and I I and I defended a lot of
56:29people who said some pretty insensitive
56:31things you know like someone joking that
56:33anyone who can blow up the Pentagon has
56:34my vote was literally my very first
56:36letter it's a joke insensitive joke um
56:39and and he was he was he was eventually
56:41forced out but every time HED perceives
56:46the threat from coming off campus every
56:49single time they suddenly discover
56:52freedom of speech uh sometimes even will
56:55mention maybe neutrality will come out
56:57of it but they they like to play the
56:59victim and and that essentially like oh
57:01this is the new
57:03McCarthyism like it like that one comes
57:05up really quick instant it's in but as
57:07soon as it actually I'll start to
57:09believe that they're true and this will
57:10be a process of years if they really
57:13mean it now the next time someone from
57:16within the university comes with a you
57:18know demanding a more social justice
57:20oriented punishment cancellation or
57:23statement I think going to I think
57:25they're going to this is going to last a
57:28couple of weeks essentially and if uh
57:31yeah if that if that um I'd love to be
57:34wrong though I keep on saying I have
57:36some parts of what comes next I want to
57:39explore with you and to do to do that I
57:41just want to make sure we sort of set
57:43the table I think everybody watching
57:45needs especially parents dads needs to
57:48read this book thank you this book it's
57:50called the canceling of the American
57:51mind it well it you lay this thing out
57:53you lay out what's going going on not
57:55just on college campuses but in the
57:57aftermath as you said earlier in our
57:59conversation genz is now out into the
58:00world y but it's not just gen Z it's
58:03medical schools it's Clinical Psychology
58:05Clinical Psychology chapter publishing
58:07scared me the publishing chapter scared
58:09me tremendously know it's a it's a
58:11horror show every every chapter it's
58:13like oh no oh god oh so now all the all
58:16the new doctors are going to be whack
58:17jobs oh I can't go to a therapist
58:19because they're going to they're going
58:20to say I have white privilege like
58:23everywhere I delightful and pulse
58:25pounding
58:26read yeah yeah you know if you like
58:29horror movies it's fantastic I do like
58:32horror movies the original night of Liv
58:33and dead is a classic let's imagine
58:35somebody has managed to get to this
58:37point of the conversation and they're
58:38like this sounds like a lot of
58:40cherry-picked moments and you've like
58:43bounced around and you got some crazy
58:45philosophers you only got 22 years of
58:46experience doing this yeah you're the
58:48leading expert in the country on this
58:50stuff but what do you know make the you
58:52know Let's Pretend We're on you know
58:55know uh on MSNBC and you have and you
58:58have your three minutes to to answer the
59:01question is this really happening at a
59:03large scale what is the answer to that
59:06well I mean i' opened with it what one
59:08in six professors saying they've been
59:10investigated is unheard of like it's
59:12just completely off or threaten with
59:15investigation for their academic freedom
59:17and that includes your your your speech
59:19uh your teaching your research Etc um
59:22one in six onethird of professors maybe
59:25I think about 30 30% said that they've
59:26been told not to in not to do
59:28controversial research you know like so
59:31like it's it's happening on a huge scale
59:32but when when we talk about the uh when
59:34I talk about 911 911 was one of the
59:37worst periods for academic freedom over
59:39the last several decades there was there
59:41was a real threat because people were
59:43freaking out yeah uh understandably and
59:46also people on campus were saying some
59:47pretty lousy things um so it's one of
59:50those situations where it's like of
59:51course the first amendment lawyer you
59:53know is going to have a lot of work
59:53during that time
59:55so there were 17 professors targeted um
1:00:00for a post 911 you know insensitive
1:00:04speech and and like aaq War speech I
1:00:07imagine it stuff like this is the US's
1:00:09fault this is blowback this is we're
1:00:11we're the great terrorist of the world a
1:00:13couple cases though it's like Mike Adams
1:00:15you know who actually challenged a
1:00:17student who said America had it coming
1:00:18so there were actually conservatives
1:00:20getting in trouble too but but once
1:00:22again if you're getting in trouble if if
1:00:24it's coming from you from the right it
1:00:25comes from off- campus if you're getting
1:00:27in trouble from the left it comes from
1:00:29on campus why because that's there
1:00:31aren't conservatives in any meaningful
1:00:33number on on most campuses so of course
1:00:35like if there's if there's right
1:00:36pressure that you know that's where uh
1:00:38that's where it comes from so three
1:00:40profess professors were fired during
1:00:43this period um that's considered to be
1:00:45really bad I mean the American
1:00:46Association of University uh uh
1:00:48professors you know did an entire uh
1:00:51issue on a single Professor being fired
1:00:53Steven cel was a case that we cared
1:00:55about as well also insensitive speech
1:00:57but still completely protected but all
1:00:59three of those firings were Justified
1:01:02one academic misconduct or Churchill two
1:01:05uh about actual ties to terrorism not
1:01:07his speech samiian and the other one for
1:01:09devoting a class on technical writing to
1:01:11her opinions on the Iraq War at length
1:01:13is something that's like well actually
1:01:15you have to teach the class was
1:01:16basically the argument I know so like
1:01:18all three of them were justified in
1:01:19other ways we're now talking about over
1:01:22a thousand attempts to get Professor
1:01:23fired document
1:01:25two3 of them are uh are punished in some
1:01:28way maybe by the end of the year will be
1:01:30over 200 actual firings over 40
1:01:33professors who are tenured being fired
1:01:35then of course people are will make the
1:01:37argument uh well there's there there's
1:01:394,000 schools Michael Hobs lives to make
1:01:42this argument like no about uh half of
1:01:44the students in the country that go to
1:01:45four-year colleges attend about 200
1:01:47schools and about 80% attend only about
1:01:50600 schools oh I didn't realize that
1:01:52that's really interesting so that 4,000
1:01:54school what does that mean then it's
1:01:55just like there's a bunch of empty
1:01:56buildings out there in the country it
1:01:58just means a lot of times they're
1:01:59they're n they're tiny Niche schools you
1:02:01know yeah so there's a school with a 100
1:02:02kids but then you're then then there's
1:02:0440,000 undergrads in Texas and yeah yeah
1:02:06exactly okay so like this argument and
1:02:09what people need to get is that this is
1:02:11wildly and disproportionately focused in
1:02:13the most influential schools in the
1:02:15country yeah there's a part in the book
1:02:16that where you basically say if you're
1:02:18in the top ranking of US News and World
1:02:22reports you're at the bottom the fire
1:02:25rankings yeah yeah if you're Yale
1:02:27Harvard Stanford columia NYU you all
1:02:30these are all these all do Terri these
1:02:31are all basically fifth columns the four
1:02:34schools that hit the bottom of our
1:02:35campus Free Speech ranking where it's
1:02:37the largest survey of students um ever
1:02:39conducted asking them about their
1:02:40attitudes about Free Speech or whether
1:02:42or not they think violence and response
1:02:43to speech is swell a surprisingly High
1:02:46number of students at some schools
1:02:47actually do um and the largest database
1:02:51of student cancellations ever assembled
1:02:54Professor cancellations ever assembled
1:02:56campus speech codes and deplatforming
1:02:58like it's it's it's unparalleled in ter
1:03:01in terms of how thorough it is and the
1:03:03bottom three schools Harvard got
1:03:06actually got a negative score um we
1:03:08rounded it up to zero it was a standard
1:03:11deviation below the next worse um
1:03:13University of Pennsylvania um was next
1:03:16Georgetown man did Georgetown earn it
1:03:18and interestingly number four was
1:03:19actually University of South Carolina so
1:03:21like that and that kind of like shows
1:03:23like what happens when you just the data
1:03:25I want to be fair to two schools though
1:03:27University of Virginia finished on the
1:03:29top 10 and University of Chicago uh was
1:03:32was 13th um out out of 248 so so th
1:03:35those schools even though University of
1:03:37Chicago we we believe screwed up
1:03:39something with it with an individual
1:03:41student case um so yeah so basically the
1:03:45problem is if I really explaining this
1:03:46you know to an MSNBC audience I I feel
1:03:48like there's there it's like there's
1:03:50this like perfect rhetorical Fortress
1:03:53around uh around the argument that there
1:03:55would be all sorts of ways to be like oh
1:03:57that's not and I'm like no you need to
1:03:59get it the law was only established on
1:04:01campus between 1957 1973 we are talking
1:04:04about probably by orders of magnitude
1:04:07like the largest culling of professors
1:04:10in the last 50 years like this is not
1:04:12normal if if you think there needs to be
1:04:14millions of people who who actually get
1:04:16fire uh fired there's no parallel to
1:04:19that in history I point out that the
1:04:20first the first Red Scare involved
1:04:22something like three 3,000 to 4,000
1:04:26arrests um for presumed sort of
1:04:29communistic uh ties right in the
1:04:31aftermath of the bullsh Revolution right
1:04:33they there was reason to be freaked out
1:04:35and there was actually a bombing
1:04:37campaign all over the country there was
1:04:39you know there was reason to be freaked
1:04:40out um and uh compare that to what's
1:04:44going on in in England in in Britain the
1:04:48that was like the numbers for like I
1:04:49think the single year of 2016 was around
1:04:524,000 arrests for offensive comments
1:04:56online like so so so like the UK the UK
1:04:59and Canada and the anglosphere is like a
1:05:01Cess pool when it comes to free speech
1:05:03yeah so so like and then people look at
1:05:05that and they're like oh we should be
1:05:06doing that us we should be putting
1:05:07people in jail for saying and sensitive
1:05:11things on yeah or dancing on their
1:05:13graves after they kill themselves oh
1:05:15well that does happen in in newspapers
1:05:17Yeah by so-called journalists right
1:05:19that's you you highlight that in one of
1:05:21your in one of the stories in the book
1:05:23yeah that well that was guy Mike Adams
1:05:24who I mentioned earlier he was a
1:05:26conservative that I was defending since
1:05:27my first like first couple weeks at fire
1:05:30I was defending Mike and he was the
1:05:32rarest thing of all in HED he wasn't a
1:05:34Libertarian conservative he was a
1:05:36full-on Evangelical Christian and how
1:05:38did he get in he conver he was a liberal
1:05:40and then he converted he he he he was a
1:05:43criminology professor and he just you
1:05:45know had a revelation and and and became
1:05:48a a Christian and he attributed to me um
1:05:51the fact that I recommended Lenny Bruce
1:05:53how to talk F dirty and influen people
1:05:55to him which I was reading at the time
1:05:57yeah um that he is why he actually said
1:06:00this on radio once like oh yeah Greg Lu
1:06:01G he's the guy who inspired me to be
1:06:03more in your face with my with my
1:06:04conservative advocacy and I'm like oh
1:06:06God I I i' I've created a monster but
1:06:09his whole style was to be kind of a
1:06:12little bit of a conservative jerk um a
1:06:14fire brand but at the same time clearly
1:06:16very jokey and that's something that at
1:06:18least America used to get the gadfly
1:06:21function the gesture function um
1:06:24produced a movie about this can we take
1:06:26a joke yeah can we take a joke 2015 I
1:06:28highly recommend it it was only too far
1:06:30ahead of its time like people like
1:06:32Council culture wasn't on people's radar
1:06:33yet and we were calling it out back then
1:06:35but the likes of of uh you know Jerry
1:06:37Seinfeld knew because they would go on
1:06:38campus and yeah like these are the
1:06:42most humorless young people I've ever
1:06:45encountered yeah so so in 2020 Mike um
1:06:49during a time where we've never seen the
1:06:52number of cases we saw after the murder
1:06:54of George Floyd um it was and if there
1:06:57was Trump was one supercharger 2020s
1:07:00toxic combination of coid and then
1:07:03George Floyd's murder yeah and I and it
1:07:06was deemed a murder and I would I call
1:07:07it a murder uh that was like oh we got
1:07:11we got gasoline on this fire can we just
1:07:12drop a neutron bomb on it and and here's
1:07:14the thing I I mean I worked at the ACL
1:07:1699 I'm a civil libertarian so when I saw
1:07:18that I'm like this is an opportunity to
1:07:20actually fix some things that will
1:07:21prevent this kind of abuse from
1:07:22happening again and and there's like
1:07:24five or six reforms that could really
1:07:25help um we should we qualified immunity
1:07:27all kinds of stuff yeah we we should get
1:07:29together pass it you know but on campus
1:07:31it was I got some old scores against
1:07:33professors and students I don't like I'm
1:07:34going to reveal things that they wrote
1:07:3610 years ago you know or when there were
1:07:3814 in a couple of cases uh get their
1:07:41admissions to the schools of their
1:07:42dreams revoked or find tweets on
1:07:44professors I don't like to get them
1:07:46cancelled and and that was that was the
1:07:48busiest fire has ever been in our entire
1:07:50existence we got as many cases in June
1:07:53of 2012 20 as we used to get sometimes
1:07:55like an entire year certainly in June
1:07:56and July we we got more than we would
1:07:59get in in in in a year and one of them
1:08:02was Mike Adams you know checking in
1:08:04because uh he he had actually been
1:08:06targeted because he had a post he he
1:08:09tweeted out a picture of him in a
1:08:12different not North Carolina A Place
1:08:14With No lockdowns with a bunch of his
1:08:16friends saying um uh Governor whatever
1:08:19the name of the governor of of North
1:08:21Carolina was uh Massa governor let my
1:08:24people go so a reference to slavery um
1:08:27you know uh and arguably some degree
1:08:30offensive and but also living under
1:08:33totalitarian rule in which you're told
1:08:35to stay in your home it's not saying
1:08:36that's good it's it's saying that this
1:08:39is this is not this is not good it's it
1:08:42was make an argument for freedom and so
1:08:44I mean all Global governments treated
1:08:46the entire population like slaves during
1:08:48Co well there was a big movement against
1:08:52him on campus um but it was worse than
1:08:54actually um most of the other ones that
1:08:56I saw or although actually maybe more of
1:08:58this happened than I we were so
1:08:59overwhelmed we had to like move people
1:09:00off other things to handle like the wave
1:09:02of cases and I didn't check in with Mike
1:09:06because I knew I thought Mike was like
1:09:09the
1:09:10most self-confident person I ever met in
1:09:12my life you know thick skin Lenny Bruce
1:09:14type of guy ready for action and then
1:09:16when I heard he'd actually accepted a
1:09:18sance agreement I was like okay Michael
1:09:20be fine I knew he was actually talking
1:09:21maybe a little bit about retiring at
1:09:22some point anyway and only in Academia
1:09:25do you think about retiring in your 50s
1:09:27well I I just from being a professor
1:09:29though he was he was he was getting worn
1:09:30down from being like the
1:09:32token oh yeah and I checked in with him
1:09:34in mid July about how he was doing and
1:09:37he wasn't doing well um people were
1:09:39still coming to his house they were
1:09:40calling him on the phone you know like
1:09:42he's being stalked and I uh and then he
1:09:46killed himself the next week you know
1:09:48and and what we were referring to was
1:09:49the fact that there were people you know
1:09:51writing about this who were absolutely
1:09:52ghoulish about this man who's dead you
1:09:55know who um because they didn't like his
1:09:58tweets and but remember the these people
1:10:01are on the side of of of of Freedom
1:10:04Light and compassion there's so much
1:10:06stuff in the book and you've covered it
1:10:08in other conversations like with Lex
1:10:10like like this the concept of this
1:10:12perfect rhetorical Fortress that people
1:10:14on the left use and then this efficient
1:10:16Fortress that people on The Right Use
1:10:17yeah but I want to push in specifically
1:10:22on on the ideology here we've talked
1:10:24about it there are right-wing
1:10:27cancellations I think in the book you
1:10:28said like 40% of
1:10:30professors one or something like that
1:10:32onethird of the professors targeted are
1:10:34targeted from the right um but this is
1:10:37like sorry sorry not targeted who get
1:10:39punished are targeted from the right and
1:10:41that's usually like someone writes an
1:10:43article in Fox news about a professor
1:10:44saying something you know and it get it
1:10:47it catches fire on conservative media
1:10:49and we fight we fight all those cases
1:10:51fire fired is not TR is truly
1:10:52nonpartisan but I will say that that
1:10:54doesn't entirely let the left off the
1:10:56hook because a lot of times the
1:10:58administrators actually doing the firing
1:11:00are not themselves conservative they're
1:11:02just not good on free speech and they'll
1:11:03be like okay that guy said a jerky thing
1:11:06yeah fine like he he's bad for business
1:11:08let's get rid of uh let's get rid of
1:11:10this guy and I mean the case that I talk
1:11:12about that that and and sometimes you
1:11:14know um Dorian Abbott is like yeah but
1:11:16sometimes it's like really like it's
1:11:17extra un uh like unsympathetic speech
1:11:21I'm like yeah I mean like there there
1:11:22was one case where a guy was talking
1:11:24about needing more Dead Cops you know
1:11:26like as a joke and I'm like yeah I get
1:11:28it it's protected but it's offensive I
1:11:30get it but then I point out cases like
1:11:32Ash and fany which is one that kind of
1:11:35showed how dumb sort of um uh media
1:11:38storms can be from any direction but in
1:11:40this case from the right because I read
1:11:43these the these these articles saying uh
1:11:46babington Babson uh Professor uh he is
1:11:50advising uh Iran on where to attack in
1:11:52the United States it's like are you
1:11:54standing by this this professor who's
1:11:56advising the ayatolla about where he
1:11:57should attack in the United States and
1:11:59this this was during the period where
1:12:01Donald Trump was saying you know we
1:12:03might go to war with Iran and we'd even
1:12:06attack the cultural centers go and you
1:12:09know like something that really kind of
1:12:11shocked people a little bit because that
1:12:12I think that also violated the Geneva
1:12:14conventions so this is what it was about
1:12:16we're going to go full Taliban and
1:12:18destroy the the buddh this professor um
1:12:21had actually tweeted out hey I told K he
1:12:24knew there wasn't K long dead um he
1:12:27actually did tweet hey I told
1:12:30anyway all right no no to to establish
1:12:32that this was the tone of this it's like
1:12:35hey I've got a list of cultural centers
1:12:37in the United States that you could
1:12:38attack um the Mall of America uh the
1:12:42kadashian residence and I'm like that's
1:12:45a transparent joke and actually kind of
1:12:47slightly funny one not not killer but
1:12:50but but but not bad and it was it was
1:12:52presented in in the media as if this guy
1:12:54was actually and and he lost his job and
1:12:56this was an early 2020 um and he still
1:12:59he'd been working there for 11 years and
1:13:01it's kind of like yeah that's you know
1:13:02that that's cancel culture from the
1:13:03right now the person who actually did
1:13:05the firing not sure what her politics uh
1:13:07was but but at the same time it it's uh
1:13:10it's important to acknowledge that this
1:13:11can this can come from both sides but we
1:13:13don't we don't do both sideris in the
1:13:16book we give three chapters to threats
1:13:18from the right even though one of them
1:13:20actually doesn't look like our
1:13:21definition of cancel culture it's more
1:13:23like the legislative stuff um but I
1:13:26recently did like the David Pacman show
1:13:28you know and I'm just it's so hard to
1:13:31get because I still consider myself left
1:13:33of center it's so hard to get people on
1:13:35my side to actually say we're doing
1:13:38something wrong and it's not on the
1:13:41other guy it's on us we run Academia and
1:13:45we're messing it up so I want to spend
1:13:48some time on this yeah because so Jordan
1:13:51Peterson laid out a framework for how to
1:13:53think about left and right that I
1:13:54actually think is really ecumenical yeah
1:13:56and that is like in the in the years ago
1:14:00he basically said look you know you have
1:14:03sort of psychologically you have the
1:14:05people who have trait openness yeah and
1:14:08maybe are more utopian and want to try
1:14:12new things and they are on the left yeah
1:14:15and and they want to change the society
1:14:18they see the fence like chesterton's
1:14:20fence and say let's pull this thing up
1:14:21and like the sky's the limit yeah and
1:14:24then you have people who are more
1:14:26temperamentally conservative more
1:14:27conscientious and and they want to say
1:14:30wait I think that I'm not sure who built
1:14:32that fence and maybe we should keep that
1:14:33fence maybe there for a reason we don't
1:14:34know yet and and like let's not just
1:14:36change Just For Change sake and that
1:14:38these are healthy necessary forces yeah
1:14:42that work to move us towards it's it's
1:14:46um you know Jonathan rash calls it
1:14:47liberal science like the discovery of
1:14:50Truth in this combat so long as it's
1:14:53civil so long as we're not trying to
1:14:55kill each other that's what left and
1:14:57right does well and we need them both we
1:14:59can't have just one or just the other y
1:15:03so there's two things that have happened
1:15:04that I want to get your take on and try
1:15:07to understand because I I'd say like I'm
1:15:09temp I'm all over the place you know I'm
1:15:11like a conservative Catholic that's like
1:15:13kind of an anarco capitalist libertarian
1:15:15at the same time like you know good good
1:15:17luck trying to put me on one of these
1:15:19Left Right plots doesn't work yeah but
1:15:21it seems like the left
1:15:23and its capture of all these
1:15:25institutions as it has been laid out in
1:15:28your in your book not just Academia but
1:15:30K through 12 which is basically just
1:15:32like Academia comes out goes to K
1:15:34through 12 yeah and the education
1:15:36schools come out with a lot of the worst
1:15:37ideas ever and wor and by the way my
1:15:39kids go to public school and they have
1:15:41lovely teachers but you know like but
1:15:43it's to say it's group thinky can be a
1:15:45little bit of an understatement yeah I'd
1:15:46sooner put my I like to say I sooner put
1:15:48my kid in a coal mine then than put them
1:15:50in a public school or or or a super
1:15:52expensive a private school they're worse
1:15:54I live in DC and the private schools are
1:15:57way way worse wor yeah we pulled our son
1:15:59from a private school here because it
1:16:00went got whacked out like we said I was
1:16:02saying at the beginning I'm such I'm so
1:16:04publicly an atheist though I feel like I
1:16:05just couldn't send him to Catholic
1:16:06school well you
1:16:08know Battle of
1:16:11ideas but here's my
1:16:14question what purpose does the left
1:16:18serve today I mean that in an honest
1:16:21sense and I'm not trying to be like I'm
1:16:23a right- Winger and they should just all
1:16:24go to hell I don't understand the point
1:16:28of the left if the left is now against
1:16:32expression if it is now not open to
1:16:35ideas but is actually I mean at least
1:16:37McCarthy they were Communists and we
1:16:39were in a cold war to be fair not all of
1:16:41them were but a lot of them were like
1:16:43there was a I I I saw something like out
1:16:45of those 60 it was like 58 of them were
1:16:47actual Communists that maybe did pose an
1:16:50actual security threat yeah so what's
1:16:53the point of the left today in 2023 what
1:16:56is the point and I want to be clear I I
1:16:58draw this distinction and and always
1:17:00have I consider myself a liberal I
1:17:04always thought the left was our kooky
1:17:06embarrassing people like the kind of
1:17:08people who would actually say you know
1:17:10Stalin was fine you know and it's like
1:17:12yeah yeah and ma yeah and Ma you know um
1:17:15and uh I remember actually being told at
1:17:16one point because my family you know
1:17:18fought the bolix um the uh that I
1:17:20couldn't be objective about uh about
1:17:23communism and I was kind of like so
1:17:25you're saying my family's lived
1:17:27experience doesn't count cuz we actually
1:17:30know these people in a way that you
1:17:31don't um SW okay cool um and we and we
1:17:34were we were surfs you know we were the
1:17:36definition of like the like we went from
1:17:38Surfs to actually relatively like
1:17:39comparatively well well-to-do kind of
1:17:42poor people you know and like that
1:17:44should be a Triumph story and instead
1:17:46they so now we have shot Us in the back
1:17:48of the head all of Academia K through 12
1:17:50well when you look at the when you look
1:17:51at the polling there is still a large um
1:17:55middle that I would actually describe as
1:17:57liberal small L like like the the center
1:18:01left and center right like they're still
1:18:03good on freedom of speech they're still
1:18:04good on a number of the stuff but the I
1:18:07never thought kind of the worst aspects
1:18:09of the sort of utopian totalitarian kind
1:18:12of left would actually succeed at all um
1:18:15like because it just seemed like so so
1:18:17asinine and to be you know to be clear
1:18:19there there are lots of people who don't
1:18:21think that they're all authoritarian but
1:18:22it's like if it's one of the reason why
1:18:25I it makes me mad that some people still
1:18:26call them liberals I'm like listen or or
1:18:28sometimes they call themselves it's kind
1:18:29of like listen if you don't believe in
1:18:30any aspect of human Freedom like then
1:18:33please don't use that word um and so
1:18:36yeah I I don't really know if they know
1:18:37what their point is it does sometimes
1:18:39seem like it's flailing around but
1:18:41generally very thinks everything
1:18:43everything currently is wrong and there
1:18:45and it's kind of becoming a little bit
1:18:47of a self-fulfilling prophecy well the
1:18:49thing that's weird yeah and that your
1:18:51book lays out with a lot of Det detail
1:18:53yeah is that it's not just like a bunch
1:18:56of crazy professors like in the 9s where
1:18:58it's like what was the guy's name Ward
1:19:00church or yeah like where Bill O'Reilly
1:19:02is getting on TV constantly railing
1:19:04against W church but he's like w
1:19:06Churchill was was the guy who said um
1:19:08that the people in the World Trade
1:19:09Center were little like men's um and we
1:19:12and we and we defended them by the way
1:19:14my my first time on one of my early
1:19:16times on TV was was on a show it was
1:19:19actually kind of hysterical because it
1:19:21was um Alan comes versus was Johan
1:19:23Hannity oh yeah yeah um remember this
1:19:25and it was they first of all I looked
1:19:27really young so they thought I was a
1:19:29student which was adorable then they
1:19:31honestly got confused because we were
1:19:33both uh saying his speech is protected
1:19:36but also there were students atal
1:19:38University who were protesting him just
1:19:39by putting up actual awful quotes from
1:19:41him which which the school decided were
1:19:43they passed a new policy against
1:19:45propaganda you can only have propaganda
1:19:47in the classroom yeah yeah exactly so I
1:19:49was on there to defend both both of
1:19:51these things and they they got confused
1:19:53they're like well who whose side are you
1:19:54on it's like on Free Speech side um but
1:19:58yeah he he got in trouble for calling
1:19:59the the World Trade Center people little
1:20:02aan and then they used to have this
1:20:04Dynamic of of you know going after these
1:20:06these individual uh professors but now
1:20:09it it it got so much worse even faster
1:20:12than I thought it was going to well this
1:20:14is the part and the end of the book
1:20:16ruminates on this yeah about how to fix
1:20:18it well and and there's very specific
1:20:20things there's stuff about parenting
1:20:22there's stuff at the institutional level
1:20:24it's you know there's more than we could
1:20:25possibly cover you just got to read it
1:20:27but the heart of the question that you
1:20:30end the book on is how do you have we
1:20:33have this dichotomy yeah so which would
1:20:37you rather have strong legal protections
1:20:39for free speech with a kind of not so
1:20:41great culture yeah or a great culture
1:20:44with not so great legal protections yeah
1:20:46and I want both yeah so help me here
1:20:50because like you know you've said
1:20:53America has the strongest legal
1:20:55protections and they have gotten
1:20:56stronger over time Y and yet the Mad Men
1:21:00are running the Asylum and they're
1:21:02running K through 12 y the AC Academia
1:21:05yep publishing yep increasingly Clinical
1:21:08Psychology y so we have a mental health
1:21:10crisis who will actually intervene with
1:21:12their patients to correct wrong beliefs
1:21:13so oh you you know you admit some that
1:21:16you're like vaguely right of Center and
1:21:17you you get lectured for your CIS White
1:21:20Privilege whatever blah blah blah word
1:21:22salad and now pay me yeah thanks for the
1:21:24privilege I'm going to I'm going to
1:21:27everything's a ma struggle session yeah
1:21:29um you know obviously like
1:21:30entertainment's got a lot of this in it
1:21:32you know I mean the Oscars now have
1:21:35racial quotas in order to win an Oscar
1:21:38yeah so it's all kind of like gone back
1:21:40to the Dark Ages in the name of
1:21:42progress good racial what the do we do
1:21:45about this yeah it's like it's I believe
1:21:50that this is barbarism I got very
1:21:52depressed and anxious writing the book
1:21:54um partially the whole having a big
1:21:55Target on my back but also the wow how
1:21:58do we solve this particularly when I
1:21:59have to still deal with people who are
1:22:00like no there's nothing wrong here you
1:22:02know and and and the people I'm dealing
1:22:03with are overwhelmingly well relatively
1:22:05wealthy white elite people who yeah it's
1:22:08like Charles Murray the ultimate canel
1:22:09canceled he's got his great book coming
1:22:12apart yeah and it and it exists in the
1:22:14universe here because it's like oh if
1:22:15you live in the super Zips where it's
1:22:17just like a bunch of you know white
1:22:19Elites that all basically are married
1:22:22live like super conservative lives by
1:22:25today's standards of being like a
1:22:26nuclear family sending your kids like to
1:22:28a parochial school yeah all hold these
1:22:31luxury beliefs about ah Rob Henderson
1:22:33yeah it I I am under no one of the
1:22:36reasons why we spend a third of the book
1:22:39talking about potential Solutions well
1:22:41while actually making people more
1:22:42depressed by giving examples all
1:22:44throughout is because we don't think
1:22:46there's any single easy solution um it's
1:22:49going to take an awful lot so what's
1:22:50going on right now with a with a ton T
1:22:52of particularly Jewish students
1:22:55understanding that they that they've the
1:22:58environment they're in has become
1:23:00completely group thinky and the group
1:23:01thinky is proton naism yeah um that that
1:23:04Jews are the problem in some some some
1:23:06of these places um and donors you know
1:23:09thinking the same thing I'm like well
1:23:11how about you massively move fund
1:23:14completely new institutions it's one of
1:23:15the reasons why I actually think ending
1:23:17legacy admissions would help I I think
1:23:19that in some ways um a lot of
1:23:21influential people feel very tied and
1:23:24bonded to their schools yeah they clutch
1:23:26their their class rings like oh and oh
1:23:28my alma Mo I have to give you a it's
1:23:31like I have to give you child I have to
1:23:33give you a ton of money but but a little
1:23:34bit cynically then I'll have a little
1:23:36bit of extra a little maybe not in the
1:23:38front of their head maybe more in the
1:23:40back but you know if I'm a major donor
1:23:42and a legacy it'll be easier for my kid
1:23:43to get in if that was not to get into
1:23:46basically a fifth column Terror C if
1:23:49that if that pressure were were released
1:23:51and and it should be be you know like
1:23:53anyway like that essentially people
1:23:54should be I I think that the thing okay
1:23:57a couple things about Elite colleges
1:24:00they have so much money you can't
1:24:02entirely give up on them because they're
1:24:03going to be here in a 100 years and
1:24:05probably have an even bigger endowment
1:24:07one of the things that shocked me in the
1:24:09book was that I think I want to make
1:24:11sure this was correct that I heard it
1:24:12right because I listened to it was that
1:24:14it's like that was this the annual
1:24:17revenue of the of the University system
1:24:19is a trillion dollars a year oh yeah no
1:24:21I so it's size of the economy of Mexico
1:24:24is basically this lumbering
1:24:27parasitic administrator filled woke
1:24:30healthscape it's just like well like
1:24:34right very very very cross Health Spa as
1:24:37well yeah well we got lazy rivers and we
1:24:40got nice apartments and um and you know
1:24:44accept communism as your lord and savior
1:24:45and let's move on I want you know I I
1:24:47think we need lots of Reform I think we
1:24:50need a lot of experimentation too I
1:24:52think there should be students going to
1:24:54I I think like a mass Exodus from some
1:24:56of the um from some of the elite
1:24:58colleges would be something that they
1:24:59really need as a slap in the face I also
1:25:01think that you know University of Texas
1:25:03at Austin cannot happen soon enough
1:25:04there's also University of Austin un
1:25:06Austin we're working with them on some
1:25:08things and yeah I'm a fan pan pan will
1:25:10have been on the show already by the
1:25:12time this comes out nice I I always
1:25:13stumble a little bit on that because I
1:25:15don't want to make it sound too much
1:25:16like UT Austin we talked about UT Austin
1:25:18which is actually kind of a disaster and
1:25:20really low on the rankings oh very low
1:25:21on the rankings yeah and I've heard
1:25:23stories from both faculty and students
1:25:26that are like even in Texas yeah well
1:25:30School regulated by the Texas legisl
1:25:33sometimes especially there because like
1:25:35I remember actually discovering a school
1:25:37in Alabama that was like super woke and
1:25:40I think that that was in part because
1:25:42they kind of view their students as
1:25:44little Savages like and and it actually
1:25:46made it a lot worse cuz it's not like
1:25:48the professors I mean this is something
1:25:49you hear on the left all the time it's
1:25:50like well surely this rural College you
1:25:53know is is really rightwing and I'm like
1:25:55where do you think they're getting their
1:25:56teachers from you know like I've
1:25:58actually heard a theory that in like
1:26:00super red states that the campus is
1:26:03actually like intensified because it's
1:26:06it's kind of like leftwing politics
1:26:07there's a word for that
1:26:09schismogenesis so this is we're
1:26:11surrounded we're like the blue dot and
1:26:13the Red Sea and yeah it well and it's
1:26:16also the polarization spiral so I mean I
1:26:19have gotten I'm so I've gotten
1:26:21sufficiently radical I'm like yeah
1:26:22University of Texas at Austin yes fewer
1:26:24jobs need to have we need to make it so
1:26:27that fewer jobs require a college degree
1:26:29I actually remove the requirement for
1:26:31fire to have for people to have college
1:26:32degrees I think we need lowcost High
1:26:35rigor ways that people can certify that
1:26:37they're super smart and hardworking and
1:26:39I even went so far as to say I wish
1:26:41there was like a test that more or less
1:26:43took like a liberal arts uh curriculum
1:26:46required you to have a full
1:26:48understanding o of all of it and maybe
1:26:50one in a hundred people can actually
1:26:51pass the test but then you're actually
1:26:54saying that you there would actually be
1:26:56a way to show for real Z that you might
1:26:57be one of the best and brightest out
1:26:59there um well no but we instead we have
1:27:01to strip all that away and strip away
1:27:02Merit and I mean again in the book you
1:27:04talk about this like medical schools
1:27:06stripping away all the all the standards
1:27:08of Merit all the way up to like will my
1:27:10neurosurgeon 20 years from now be any
1:27:13damn good and how will I know except for
1:27:14checking on patients to see if they live
1:27:17or die like where are we where do we
1:27:20head yeah no there's like being I do
1:27:23feel like I don't mean to be excessively
1:27:26negative
1:27:27but there's the dam that has not yet
1:27:30broken yeah and that dam is the old
1:27:32people uhhuh the old professors the old
1:27:35liberals yeah who were like this is
1:27:39craziness this this like the Barbarian
1:27:41hordes as they age and if they don't
1:27:44moderate and grow the hell up they'll be
1:27:47running the show and then what yeah
1:27:50that's something that our research
1:27:51showed as well is is that the up
1:27:53upcoming you know cohort of professors
1:27:55is nuts more uniformly to the left more
1:27:59intense much less pro- free speech um
1:28:02and yeah like that's one of the reasons
1:28:04why I mean I I read these articles
1:28:06saying it's like oh we're past Peak woke
1:28:08it's it's breaking I'm like no how can
1:28:10this actually be fixed if you're talking
1:28:12about universities that are getting less
1:28:14and less Viewpoint diversity by the year
1:28:16they're becoming more tribal they're
1:28:17becoming more intensive and more
1:28:20detached from the rest of the world
1:28:21there's a spot I I feel in the book in
1:28:24the book oh what's that um first of all
1:28:26how dare you but come on well okay it's
1:28:29it's it's at the level of of federal law
1:28:32uhhuh so a couple things number one um
1:28:36you don't talk about Title 9 or the way
1:28:38that the Department of Education has
1:28:40played an important role in that was
1:28:42just cuz I feel like I talked talk that
1:28:44to death in other context yeah like I
1:28:47talk about tital all the time you know
1:28:49Fire's done a great job of of trying to
1:28:51explain the whole rest of the country
1:28:52that title 9 actually plays a role in
1:28:54all this and and I talked about it a lot
1:28:56actually in coddling the American that's
1:28:57true it was in coddling okay so um these
1:29:01are federally subsidized institutions
1:29:04yep like student loans are all
1:29:06subsidized we have an entire massive the
1:29:09the biggest organization in this country
1:29:11is the federal government with its
1:29:12whatever heinous six Bill Six Trillion
1:29:15what's the budget now I don't even know
1:29:17um it's a lie but they are the Giant
1:29:19player yep and they have fingers on the
1:29:22scales they you know and of course
1:29:25government likes when people come out
1:29:26loving Government Solutions so it's not
1:29:28a neutral player y um so that's one in
1:29:32the education space shouldn't we get rid
1:29:36of all that shouldn't we draw actually
1:29:38the radical view I I think you could
1:29:41argue
1:29:42that if you take the First Amendment
1:29:44seriously yeah that no government
1:29:48apparatus should be allowed to engage in
1:29:51any manager role in educational or
1:29:54artistic institutions at all maybe you
1:29:56can cut a check yeah but like running a
1:29:59school it's like inherently politicized
1:30:02you can't
1:30:03depoliticize poit politicians operating
1:30:06this stuff right why not go all the way
1:30:10to essentially a kind of separation of
1:30:12education and state just an full-on
1:30:15abolitionism maybe we can have like
1:30:16Universal School vouchers like in Sweden
1:30:19yeah but I I I just don't know I don't
1:30:21know if that's realistic and and I think
1:30:23that creating competing systems is
1:30:27probably the way you're GNA rep you're
1:30:28GNA actually scare the hell out out of
1:30:30the out of the big boys you know and I
1:30:32think that because like I always give
1:30:34the give the example of Harvard some
1:30:36like 45% of the white students are
1:30:37either um legacies uh kids of professors
1:30:41or um uh or
1:30:44Sports and the average average GPA at
1:30:49Harvard is 3.8 so does that mean mean so
1:30:53and employers secretly tell me all the
1:30:54time and this makes me mad they tell me
1:30:56in secret me and height it's kind of
1:30:57like we don't we don't hire from there
1:30:59anymore I'm like oh okay do me a favor
1:31:02tell everyone that well I on Facebook I
1:31:05recently and it was because I was
1:31:06reading your book yeah I I you know
1:31:09mouthed off and said if you you need to
1:31:13understand it was something to the
1:31:14effect of like you need to treat a
1:31:16graduate from an Ivy League school like
1:31:19a grenade with the pin that's been
1:31:20pulled if you're an employer well and
1:31:22and that and that not that they they are
1:31:24for sure going to blow up yeah but but
1:31:27they could you should be biased against
1:31:29these graduates and I've heard this from
1:31:31lots of employers oh me too uh because
1:31:33one you don't know if you know the idea
1:31:36that they're the best and brightest I
1:31:37think is become increasingly a silly
1:31:39argument well they're actively saying we
1:31:40don't want them we're just killing all
1:31:42merit-based things involving admissions
1:31:44yeah and there and so we got to create
1:31:46other ways of actually showing that um
1:31:48but worse than that though you might be
1:31:50hiring a cancellor you might be hiring
1:31:53someone who's going to show up and like
1:31:54you know that jih you know that
1:31:56brilliant you know semi- autistic it guy
1:31:58you have who seems a little rightwing
1:32:00that guy's got to go and it's like he's
1:32:02a million times freaking smarter than
1:32:04anybody like but he said offensive
1:32:08things his productivity is paying your
1:32:09salary while you complain about having a
1:32:119o5 job yeah well and so and this was
1:32:14something that I was glad that Ryan Grim
1:32:15you know wrote about this for The
1:32:16Intercept because it's also completely
1:32:18paralyzing to nonprofits and yeah and
1:32:21but then you I'm I'm still living in a
1:32:23world where I got to prove that this is
1:32:24even happening man like the dealing
1:32:28constantly with people
1:32:29saying they deflect because we do
1:32:31acknowledge you know some of theu right
1:32:33but but hearing you know I mean you say
1:32:35in the book like try not hiring some any
1:32:37of these people yeah exactly and we we
1:32:40got to figure out other ways out but
1:32:41yeah the the way out of this system is
1:32:44it's it's not going to be easy so here's
1:32:47to to to lean it back into the
1:32:48radicalism for a sure sure and this
1:32:50maybe gets to some another point which
1:32:52is you know one thing T tactically that
1:32:57we have to ask ourselves is why did
1:33:00Herbert maru's ideas
1:33:03work and and why has and is it that they
1:33:08their passion moved the Overton window
1:33:11in their Direction because they were
1:33:13willing to say no my position is
1:33:17eliminate the government from every
1:33:18educational institution privatize all of
1:33:21it I mean that's my position personally
1:33:23you can think I'm a crazy person but
1:33:24that's my position but like don't we
1:33:26need the Overton window to be pulled so
1:33:30again I don't want to extinguish the
1:33:32left we need people I in a lot of ways
1:33:35I'm on the left too depending on the
1:33:36issue but we need the tension yeah it's
1:33:40like and the tension can't be well now
1:33:43on the right you cancel bu light yeah
1:33:46and and Tik Tock teachers and on the
1:33:48left you destroy all the rest of society
1:33:51like like it like yeah how else can we
1:33:53counterweight this in a way that's not
1:33:56like reactionary and death spiral yeah
1:33:58well I mean I think you can tie I think
1:34:01the
1:34:02idea so as far as like something that
1:34:05Biden did that you could have actually
1:34:07sold me on was debt forgiveness but when
1:34:10you don't actually add that to a massive
1:34:14decrease in the cost of high like the
1:34:16number of Administrators like if you
1:34:18don't do anything to the cost side of it
1:34:20that's just a massive gift um to these
1:34:23already incredibly bloated institutions
1:34:25and it was it intended that way kind of
1:34:27sounds it um the I mean like the
1:34:30politics of of what's happened where I
1:34:31mean you're he's basically just paying
1:34:33off his his his voter base really kind
1:34:35of yeah and so meanwhile like oh we paid
1:34:38you Elizabeth Warren 400 Grand a year to
1:34:40teach one class at Harvard now you you
1:34:43do you do we get to claw back any of her
1:34:44money yeah um and I think that they
1:34:46should figure out a way to sort of rate
1:34:49how bloated the the administrations are
1:34:51here cuz I think minimum if we're going
1:34:53to keep any amount of Public Funding
1:34:55towards it you have to massively de uh
1:34:57de bureaucratize um but do I think event
1:35:00like people might actually move more to
1:35:01the radical solution of of of stop
1:35:03Public Funding of it it might actually
1:35:05you know it might actually happen and I
1:35:08I mean I've even said things kind of
1:35:09like we should break off the science
1:35:10schools entirely from a lot you you know
1:35:12basically like take take the stuff that
1:35:13seems to still be working pretty well
1:35:15before it gets ruined um to the extent
1:35:17it is working well yeah because the
1:35:19group think there and the cancellations
1:35:21in the me they still do good physics
1:35:24right medicine oh no not so much got
1:35:27some issues there epidemiology that's
1:35:29always been a cesspool of replication
1:35:31problems so that's out yeah no social
1:35:34science and Humanities they they were
1:35:36burned to the ground long ago yeah but
1:35:39and of course I always do see like the
1:35:40couple little bright lights but um you
1:35:42know here and there like of course like
1:35:43people like Steve Pinker Etc but they're
1:35:45all they're they're all going to retire
1:35:47at some point so I was struggling to
1:35:49remember because you know in focusing on
1:35:51maruza and this repressive tolerance I
1:35:53like I've heard this before and so I
1:35:55asked chat GPT like who else who what
1:35:58thinker talked about the need to protect
1:36:00a free Society from the intolerant and
1:36:02it was Carl popper oh come on that's so
1:36:06unfair um let me just lay it out for
1:36:09those who don't know anything about this
1:36:10footnote the Paradox contradictory
1:36:13footnote the Paradox of Tolerance yeah I
1:36:16know have you so so strong feelings
1:36:19about it my I I want to hear the strong
1:36:21feeling so I don't know the answer to
1:36:23this because it s because my
1:36:26understanding is car Carl poer
1:36:28philosopher of science you know of
1:36:30freedom and yes he posits yeah can you
1:36:35maintain a free Society with in which
1:36:39toleration of ideas and free discourse
1:36:42while basically having intolerant
1:36:44terrorists will or will they basically
1:36:47be like free radical cancer cells that
1:36:49consume and kill the host do we have
1:36:51have to find a way to say nope nope you
1:36:55don't you got to go away that's that
1:36:57that's actually the perfect way to put
1:36:58it um because that's one of the things
1:37:00so okay so I read open society and its
1:37:02enemies um loved it I started rereading
1:37:05it and realized that I'm just a nerd
1:37:06because it actually is a little boring
1:37:08on the second read um but but I was so
1:37:10in love with it like the first time I
1:37:11read it and I'm like but where where is
1:37:13that I always hear that stupid cartoon
1:37:15that you see on Twitter all the time of
1:37:17the um Paradox of Tolerance I'm like
1:37:19there wasn't in there turned out it was
1:37:21in a footnote and it's a footnote that
1:37:23when you read it it's a
1:37:24self-contradictory footnote because at
1:37:26first it seems to be saying you know in
1:37:28the context of the Nazis we had
1:37:30opportunities to stop these people and
1:37:32we we kind of should and then it makes
1:37:33it sound like we have to you know maybe
1:37:36a little bit more like we have to go
1:37:37after intolerant speech but not quite
1:37:40exactly saying that and it gets
1:37:41interpreted as and one of the reasons
1:37:43why people love to bring this up is that
1:37:45Popper's whole point was about the open
1:37:47society and was about freedom and the
1:37:49and the Val you know and the importance
1:37:50of the scien ific method and all these
1:37:52things actually are more libertarian
1:37:54than than anything else he wasn't he
1:37:56wasn't a Libertarian but but he he was
1:37:58but he you know he believed Freedom good
1:38:00um and he's in the world with the world
1:38:02of thinkers with like Victor Frankle and
1:38:04people who understood deeply and really
1:38:07also to a degree people like Hayek and I
1:38:09think they like to point to that as like
1:38:11even popper said this and I'm like he
1:38:12barely said this he seemed to be saying
1:38:14like that we should have tried to stop
1:38:16the the Nazis there was a million
1:38:18different ways to stop the Nazis I know
1:38:20but I guess the point is oh but what
1:38:21what I'm saying is kind of like the
1:38:22reason why the the comparison to the
1:38:24terrorists is kind of like yeah you just
1:38:25don't make it this you don't you don't
1:38:28uh punish the speech you punish the
1:38:30actions and believe me um for for the
1:38:33Nazis gave you plenty of actions and
1:38:35this is the messed up thing about viar
1:38:37the problem with viar is that it was too
1:38:40tolerant of political violence and it
1:38:42gets read by people who want to restrict
1:38:44speech today like oh they were too
1:38:45tolerance in speech it's like really
1:38:48they they they sent Nazis to jail for
1:38:50saying and sensitive things but they
1:38:52didn't shut down the party for murdering
1:38:54people um like the how about you go
1:38:56after the violence part of it so I so I
1:38:58think that a lot of like a lot of the
1:39:00the stories that get used to say we need
1:39:02to we need to limit speech there A lot
1:39:04of times is this what's now called the
1:39:05vimar fallacy idea that oh yeah they
1:39:08were too they were too protective of
1:39:10speech was the problem like they weren't
1:39:11protective of speech people went to jail
1:39:13for what they said said in Germany what
1:39:15they didn't manage to do was they
1:39:17wouldn't clamp down particularly on
1:39:18nationalist violence um so I so I think
1:39:21that a lot of what the what the First
1:39:23Amendment says still makes sense even in
1:39:25this more radical environment and when
1:39:27when uh I I'm currently in ARG about
1:39:29like a French reporter like who who's
1:39:31looking at us you know contemptuously
1:39:33about the horrible things happening in
1:39:34the United States and like free speech
1:39:35is the problem I'm like you guys had
1:39:37anti anti-Semitism laws on the book
1:39:39since the 90s how's that working out for
1:39:41you like basically like all your speech
1:39:43codes are things swell in France right
1:39:46now with regard to anti-Semitism did you
1:39:48fix it and and we even did like an like
1:39:50an initial kind of look into it and it
1:39:52seemed like every country that passed
1:39:54one of these has a far far far higher
1:39:56rate of anti-Semitism now than than the
1:39:58United States does it didn't choose to
1:39:59and which is exactly a dynamic we talk
1:40:01about in the book that that's group
1:40:03polarization about how you don't change
1:40:05their minds you go it's like uh
1:40:07terrorist speech won't be allowed it's
1:40:09like so you're saying I should just talk
1:40:10to other terrorists or right you know
1:40:13and then they get even more radicalized
1:40:14so I think that's actually part of the
1:40:16dynamic that you see in right now B in
1:40:19the book you actually talk about like a
1:40:20case study
1:40:21is that people kicked off of Twitter for
1:40:24being proud boys or whatever end up
1:40:27going to other places where it's just
1:40:29them and then they've been martyred so
1:40:31now they're really much worse so now
1:40:32it's full Jihadi mode yeah and um and so
1:40:36how that work out not so great now
1:40:38there's actually more activity over here
1:40:39than there would have been if it was
1:40:40like we're not going to do the whole
1:40:43hate speech thing which is just this you
1:40:45know there's no such thing as hate
1:40:46speech there's hateful speech they think
1:40:48that's going to like I think they
1:40:50somehow primitively think this is going
1:40:51to change people's mind we're going to
1:40:52make that view uh band it's like no
1:40:55they're just going to you didn't change
1:40:57anyone's mind dude they're just going to
1:40:58talk to people who who are more extreme
1:41:00and they know they know it's safe to
1:41:01talk to and never have the moderating
1:41:03experience of being like you know what I
1:41:04think the following 50 horrible things
1:41:06someone being
1:41:07like you know there is this funny thing
1:41:10yeah which is I've never been insulted
1:41:13into changing my
1:41:17mind that guy who called me a was right
1:41:20yeah you know I I I often times again
1:41:23this is the jersey and me want to say
1:41:24like why don't you just go f yourself
1:41:26yeah but I don't have any illusion that
1:41:29that feeling is unpersuasive yeah um so
1:41:33as we wrap up I want to talk about
1:41:36specifically because I think at the
1:41:38macro level there's a lot of reasons to
1:41:39feel deeply nihilistic about the future
1:41:43constructive nihilism you know most of
1:41:44our institutions that have been captured
1:41:46probably need to burn to the ground
1:41:49hopefully voice and exit new in
1:41:50institutions like uatx and others can
1:41:52just suck out all the people whose
1:41:54brains haven't been captured and you
1:41:56know Harvard can just be like a weird
1:41:57little terror cell that we just try to
1:41:59not let them kill anyone it also has
1:42:01nice facilities right it's got you know
1:42:04there's buildings there's some buildings
1:42:05there got the Romanesque stuff but
1:42:07actually and this in a way is full
1:42:09circle back to the beginning of our
1:42:11conversation um and back to the coddling
1:42:13of the American mind I think some of the
1:42:14most powerful recommendations you have
1:42:16in this book Echo coddling and are about
1:42:19what we can do as parents so let I want
1:42:22I talk me through those what should I
1:42:25this is Dad Saves America my this Show's
1:42:27premise is how do we as parents you know
1:42:31set up our kids to succeed and to thrive
1:42:33in a free society and to want to live in
1:42:35one yeah you know not to want to be like
1:42:38yes I'm going to keep wearing my mask
1:42:40outside until I'm 38
1:42:42yeah all the suggestions we had in cing
1:42:44the American mind and and then some you
1:42:46know like the surprising role of having
1:42:49unstructured free play actually being
1:42:51outside not intervening when when your
1:42:53kids get um you know have interpersonal
1:42:56struggles you know the all at least
1:42:58unless they're super serious like
1:43:00allowing them freedom to a level that
1:43:02makes you know even me uncomfortable I
1:43:05I'm always clear like I'm an anxious
1:43:06parent so I don't find this stuff easy
1:43:08myself I'm not I'm not saying I do it's
1:43:10not it's not easy but definitely
1:43:11fostering you know their independence
1:43:12from everything from actually making
1:43:14sure that they um that they are allowed
1:43:17to to make mistakes why why does that
1:43:19matter oh because you otherwise you
1:43:21don't have any sense of Mastery over the
1:43:22world you have no sense of self-efficacy
1:43:24um if you can survive a mistake you you
1:43:27get that sense of like I'll be okay but
1:43:29if you're always told that you'll not
1:43:30survive a single mistake you you become
1:43:33much more fragilized and terrified of
1:43:34the world but I do when people you know
1:43:37make the sort of lame quip you know oh
1:43:40Mr Free Speech guy how do you feel about
1:43:41that with your kids I'm like actually I
1:43:42feel pretty strongly about it but the
1:43:44first thing they have to learn at their
1:43:46age is humility uh and curiosity and
1:43:49that basically the and that comes
1:43:51naturally to kids but I really try to
1:43:53get them really in their heads you know
1:43:55what kind of person thinks they know
1:43:56everything an
1:43:58idiot that someone that doesn't know
1:44:00anything yeah and and I end up saying
1:44:01these really kind of oldfashioned things
1:44:03to my kids it's like U but I mean them
1:44:05the and I repeat them a lot which is
1:44:08kind of like listen if you learn to
1:44:09enjoy study and work your life is going
1:44:12to feel really easy and that and it
1:44:14sounds super hard ass but it's like you
1:44:16know and then of course I have a kid
1:44:18who's my oldest is very much like me
1:44:20like
1:44:21leave them in a library all day it'll be
1:44:22freaking delighted sticks and stones
1:44:23will break my your bones but names will
1:44:25never hurt you he he he he he actually
1:44:28he also stands up for himself which
1:44:29which I he gets you I I did a little bit
1:44:32too um and I I definitely think that
1:44:35that humility part is a big part of it
1:44:37but I think you really want to not so
1:44:38much focus on your kid not getting
1:44:40cancelled of course you should be
1:44:41concerned about that you should be
1:44:43concerned about your kid being a
1:44:45cancellor yes um and the thing and they
1:44:48need to get when your friend is in
1:44:50trouble and everyone's uh everyone's
1:44:53circling around them for some BS thing
1:44:56be the one to say this person's my
1:44:58friend he's a good person you know be
1:45:00the person who actually is like you know
1:45:02um this isn't fair uh because that can
1:45:05break the spell re really fast and I've
1:45:08seen it in action where just one person
1:45:10is like puts the hand on the shoulder it
1:45:12can make a difference and the and you
1:45:14know as my co-author likes to say
1:45:16courage is contagious courage feels like
1:45:19The Virtue that is most in need and most
1:45:22in deficit right now in America I think
1:45:24I don't think it's often in deficit how
1:45:27do you talk about with your kid who's
1:45:29facing something that feels like
1:45:30cancellation yeah that they're going to
1:45:32survive yeah that it's actually like
1:45:35even like screw it you you you'll be
1:45:38okay I haven't had that yet um it's
1:45:42going to happen at some point uh I
1:45:45definitely think getting them off of
1:45:47social media um I I mean I my kids the
1:45:50only time they ever have a tablet is on
1:45:52long long hard drives and they're only
1:45:53allowed to watch movies I'm going to be
1:45:55keeping my kids off of that that as long
1:45:57as humanly possible I have like a little
1:45:58pot of parents that that that I I hope
1:46:00are going to work with me on that you
1:46:02know it's like they should be riding
1:46:03their bikes outside I think particularly
1:46:05when you're in a cancel storm a
1:46:09full technology detox is the best
1:46:12treatment for it you know um not having
1:46:14your phone anywhere near you getting
1:46:16getting the freak outside you know like
1:46:18something that actually reminds you that
1:46:20this is is all to a degree inside of our
1:46:22own heads and in a very real sense it's
1:46:26not real um it's just this weird
1:46:29illusion that we create to have little
1:46:32psycho dramas in our lives that can be
1:46:35very very cruel of course but
1:46:37nonetheless are are driven
1:46:39by some of the nastiest aspects of human
1:46:42of human nature and by the way like
1:46:45there's a wonderful quote from eldis
1:46:46Huxley because I remember talking about
1:46:48this in Boston and and kind of upsetting
1:46:49a student by saying listen coddling one
1:46:52of the reasons why the tone of the book
1:46:54has to be different when I'm talking
1:46:56about cancel culture as opposed to
1:46:57coddling is in coddling I genuinely
1:46:59believe it's good intentions and bad
1:47:01ideas that people are trying to help
1:47:03their kids that just the way they're
1:47:04doing it is actually harming them when
1:47:06it comes to cancel culture I'm like no
1:47:08this is people know they're being cruel
1:47:10and you know had a hand go up and
1:47:11they're like no they're actually trying
1:47:12to be compassionate they're talking
1:47:14about like the the little guy or the
1:47:15disadvantage or or or or minori feelings
1:47:19you know someone someone who's
1:47:20uh more uh about their oppression I'm
1:47:23like generally they're concerned about
1:47:25that in theory and in the abstract often
1:47:28times for people who aren't even present
1:47:30but they're not them and they're using
1:47:32it to actually excuse incredibly cruel
1:47:35Behavior about Flesh and Blood people
1:47:37sometimes sometimes they're own friends
1:47:39and it turns out eldis Huxley I'm not
1:47:41going to quote it right but maybe you
1:47:42can find it and put it up on on the
1:47:44screen you know really nailed it in one
1:47:47of it like a forward to one of his books
1:47:49just saying like listen if you want to
1:47:50create create a movement give people the
1:47:52opportunity to be cruel to each other um
1:47:55to be uh to to really hurt people but
1:47:58also believe uh give them the right
1:48:01self-righteous indignation give them a
1:48:03chance to be mean but feel great about
1:48:05it and your and your movement will
1:48:07succeed it this reminds me which I
1:48:09imagine hits home as a former Escape of
1:48:13the Soviet Union Alexander Alexander
1:48:16Alexander S I was born in New York
1:48:19man family genetically genetically
1:48:22You've Got The Echoes you've got genetic
1:48:23Echoes of the GG that good and evil runs
1:48:27in a line straight through the the every
1:48:31human heart yeah and that we are all and
1:48:33that even that that these people that
1:48:35are they're possessed in their pursuit
1:48:39of this cruelty and and this
1:48:41self-justifying like oh I'm trying to
1:48:44destroy your life because of equity or
1:48:46an inclusion or whatever other bunch of
1:48:48buzzwords that get thrown around now
1:48:50like Mad Libs but that they are actually
1:48:54nobody sits there twirling their their
1:48:56their mustache right some people do
1:48:58that's one the things inter that's
1:49:00interesting so you're so you know I I
1:49:02think there are people I try to believe
1:49:04that no one's really doing that they
1:49:06ultim that's even the worst have a
1:49:10justification that they can make them
1:49:11sleep at night yeah no no I I I think
1:49:14that's generally true but the fact that
1:49:16there are also masochistic sociopaths uh
1:49:20true out there you you know or there's
1:49:22dark Triad yeah the existence of
1:49:26sociopath are something that you always
1:49:28it's like no because I mean if you when
1:49:31I had an experience with with a
1:49:33sociopath and it really changed my whole
1:49:35life because it was just like wow you're
1:49:38being cruel for the sake of being cruel
1:49:40like like okay tell me about this I I
1:49:42can't go into too many details but um
1:49:45and yeah and I remember I was studying
1:49:47Buddhism the time this was right around
1:49:48the time I got super depressed and and
1:49:50there's this kind of idea of essential
1:49:51goodness in Buddhism that you have to
1:49:53like kind of conceive of the world as
1:49:54being essentially good I'm like oh but I
1:49:56believe in human evil like to be clear I
1:49:58think it's a psychological condition I
1:50:00don't I don't think I don't think of it
1:50:02as a as a spiritual thing so I'm not
1:50:04saying that like some of the people who
1:50:06I I think most of the people think
1:50:07they're doing the right thing but I also
1:50:09think there are people out there who are
1:50:11like if we disagree you're not a real
1:50:14person and anything is excused in my war
1:50:17against you which was one of the reasons
1:50:18why I was terrified to write this book
1:50:19um as well because I I'm I'll admit it I
1:50:22I am afraid of those people but
1:50:24unfortunately they do exist and
1:50:26particularly when people think their
1:50:27cause is righteous and you can achieve
1:50:30it by any means necessary that's where
1:50:31you flock it seems like the two
1:50:34places in one sense you know we started
1:50:36the conversation and and truly that
1:50:39colony of the American mind is part of
1:50:41the DNA of dad Saves America yeah but
1:50:43it's also in the absence because um
1:50:46America leads the world in
1:50:47fatherlessness yeah and dad plays a
1:50:50particular role on average obviously
1:50:53because everybody's different yeah that
1:50:55I think actually mitigates against a lot
1:50:58of these Tendencies and I actually found
1:51:00I found I found this to be somewhat
1:51:03conspicous conspicious absent in the
1:51:05book that this was this was a trend that
1:51:07Mark that that tracks
1:51:09alongside of this rise of this sort of
1:51:12oversensitive cancel culture thing is
1:51:15fatherlessness is the rise of
1:51:16fatherlessness that we are we lead the
1:51:18world China like 3% of the
1:51:20population United States 25% I know
1:51:23that's terrible but but here's the thing
1:51:25that's not true of the kids going to
1:51:26Elite schools um so and and since we see
1:51:29like like just like you say that they
1:51:31they tend to come from nuclear families
1:51:33that are that are together um and
1:51:35somehow come out the way they do that's
1:51:38a good answer but but I but I do make
1:51:39the point in in the book and it was very
1:51:41important to me given my own class
1:51:42background um that we make the point
1:51:45that yeah we're focusing a lot on the
1:51:47weirdness of of people who are going to
1:51:49the most influential schools in the
1:51:50country and schools like that the
1:51:52problems faced by know the bottom
1:51:55quarter bottom half bottom 3/4s of of
1:51:58the population are very different and
1:52:00very concerning and one of them is is
1:52:02this issue that Richard Reeves you know
1:52:05book about boys is is um you know
1:52:07unfortunately I think dead on I think
1:52:09the other one and this will be my last
1:52:11my last question before we wrap up is
1:52:14and I know you you've said it in this
1:52:15conversation you're an atheist
1:52:17yeah how much of this is filling the god
1:52:20Gap in a society that is going
1:52:23increasingly secular and and not just
1:52:25detaching from organized religion but
1:52:27also attach detaching from belief in God
1:52:29yeah and that I am certainly not the
1:52:32originator of this but it's like oh
1:52:34instead of God I've got Gaia or Equity
1:52:37or some other Earthly material
1:52:39abstraction which
1:52:41frankly you'd probably be better off
1:52:43with God up there than trying to have
1:52:45God down here which ends up being like
1:52:46your God how much of that is there's
1:52:49some really books about like the history
1:52:50of atheism for example that that this
1:52:53recurrent problem among like uh
1:52:56philosophers who kind of lose Faith
1:52:58about like but does everybody else need
1:53:00religion and that's always been kind of
1:53:02the fear and I think we're seeing that
1:53:04to some degree that that that fear is
1:53:06Justified um and I remember asking
1:53:09height like listen I know a lot of the
1:53:11social justice fundamentalism acts like
1:53:14religion yeah John marders talked about
1:53:16this quite a bit like this is this is
1:53:18this has all the trappings the original
1:53:20sin the P the Penance all of it but but
1:53:23but no but no mercy or forgiveness no no
1:53:26no it doesn't have any of the parts that
1:53:27Christ is all about it's like we get we
1:53:29take a lot of the stuff except for the
1:53:31Christ yeah except for the I forgive you
1:53:33while I'm dying on the cross none of
1:53:35that well meanwhile like I I I read the
1:53:37whole Bible like this past year I I I'm
1:53:40I'm yeah I'm for beginning and end um
1:53:42the uh then I read the Quran like I
1:53:43basically like I I take religion very
1:53:46seriously even though I'm an atheist I
1:53:47think I think it's fascinating I'm
1:53:48really glad you know I I read the whole
1:53:50thing some of the books were a little
1:53:51more boring than others but anyway so
1:53:54the um uh I remember asking height is
1:53:57this like religion is this analogous to
1:54:00religion or is like political
1:54:02fundamentalism in both the right and the
1:54:04left and more specifically social
1:54:05justice fundamentalism or is it taking
1:54:08the place of religion he's like it's
1:54:09taking the place of religion like it it
1:54:11is absolutely behaving like a coherent
1:54:14sacred belief a unifying transcendental
1:54:17worldview yeah that may not that may not
1:54:19be Challen it's blasphemy or her heresy
1:54:22and I don't know what to do exactly
1:54:24about this so Vivic ramas Swami has
1:54:26written that that means it actually
1:54:28should be come under The Establishment
1:54:29Clause um that essentially you can you
1:54:32can say no M mixing of the of social
1:54:35justice fundamentalism in state you know
1:54:37might the way way you put it yeah and
1:54:39but of course from a legal and
1:54:40philosophical perspective that one's
1:54:41that that's a difficult lift and I and
1:54:43I'm the problem line is easier just cut
1:54:45it out of all the things that involve
1:54:47discernment no government in Discerning
1:54:48anything but yeah in knowledge
1:54:50production no knowledge production none
1:54:52of that a lot a lot of the book is
1:54:54focused on um we since we can't do a
1:54:55comprehensive people people have called
1:54:57the book comprehensive like what are you
1:54:58kidding me we if we wrote a book that
1:55:00was comprehensive on cancel culture it'
1:55:02be 10,000 pages long but we focus you
1:55:04know on uh uh particularly on knowledge
1:55:07producing and about how dangerous this
1:55:09kind of you know it's anti-n knowledge
1:55:11it's a Vortex of anti-n knowledge yeah
1:55:13so got to do last question yes I thought
1:55:17the last one was a last question this
1:55:18this is one I ask third time you saw I
1:55:20know I'm it's it's a it's the
1:55:22documentarian in me we it's a it's a
1:55:24trap to keep you here longer man I ask
1:55:26this of every guest you know Dad Saves
1:55:28America is about trying to celebrate and
1:55:32explore the role of being a dad yeah and
1:55:35arm us with a way to look at the world
1:55:37so that we can bring this everyone
1:55:38should have kids into practice I agree
1:55:41with that completely more kids is better
1:55:43yeah how do you see your role in the
1:55:46American story how do I see my role in
1:55:48the American story play a very active
1:55:50role so how do you but how do you see it
1:55:52I hope I am creating an institution that
1:55:56really will
1:55:57be the protector of freedom of speech
1:56:01both as a cultural value and as a legal
1:56:03value for decades to come I think
1:56:07fire is developing a reputation for
1:56:10always being fair on this stuff always
1:56:12being the adults in the room and always
1:56:14being thoughtful and if that can be part
1:56:15of my legacy um I I will be I will been
1:56:20you know very proud but since we're
1:56:22talking about being a dad you know like
1:56:24the uh I do I that's also a big part of
1:56:27you know my life and um I was so scared
1:56:32of having kids um because my childhood
1:56:34wasn't well um and my parents didn't
1:56:37make um didn't make having kids look all
1:56:40that great and then when I finally did
1:56:43I'm like what is everyone talking about
1:56:46this is freaking great it's the greatest
1:56:48yeah um and the point and I do really
1:56:51worry um I I I believe the propaganda
1:56:54like I I and partially because I I
1:56:56wanted to because I was like I'm going
1:56:57to stay single single's great you know
1:56:59Dayton's great Dayton in New York what
1:57:01what I got to do is like a fantastic I
1:57:03don't know I don't know if any of that's
1:57:04true at this
1:57:05point oh yeah the dynamic might have
1:57:08changed there um but then when I
1:57:10actually you know finally got to have
1:57:12kids and I got to you know I have kids
1:57:14that are so much like I was and to be
1:57:16like hey I was a weird little kid too
1:57:19like like I I can I can help you through
1:57:20this I I know what's actually what's
1:57:22going on in there sometimes and it's you
1:57:24know I I I think that the generation
1:57:26that's been scared off having kids and
1:57:28thinks that they're not going to have
1:57:29kids they're going to regret that um as
1:57:30they get older um and I I think that
1:57:33it's one of the things that really does
1:57:34give you know gives a lot new anxieties
1:57:37a lot new Terrors a lot new worries but
1:57:40man is it worth
1:57:41it Greg thanks I Lov every bit of that
1:57:45thank you for coming on Dad Saves
1:57:47America absolutely good seeing you man

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