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Can You Survive This Podcast? E20: Steven Callahan — Transcript

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0:03cavalry audio
0:07my name is kate courtly and this is can
0:09you survive this podcast
0:11the show is designed to teach you
0:13techniques that will increase your
0:15chances of survival
0:16if you happen to find yourself or your
0:18family in
0:19any life-threatening disaster scenario
0:21imaginable
0:22each episode will put you smack in the
0:24middle of a new disaster scenario as i
0:27challenge my guests to see if they have
0:29what it takes
0:30to get out alive knowledge is power
0:32people
0:33can you survive this podcast
0:46my fellow survivors if you can hear my
0:48voice that means you are still alive
0:51and as always it's my mission to keep
0:52things that way i'm cade courtley
0:55i'm the host of can you survive this
0:57podcast
0:59and today it literally an amazing
1:03story an amazing guest it's one of those
1:06things that you wouldn't believe until
1:07you read the book
1:08and now i get a chance to speak with the
1:10author and the gentleman who
1:14you know he's an american author he's a
1:15naval architect he's an inventor
1:18and a sailor and in 1982
1:23he had to abandon his vessel
1:27the napoleon solo which was just over 21
1:31feet long and found himself
1:35in a life raft which was approximately
1:37six
1:38feet in diameter for 76
1:42days adrift in the atlantic ocean
1:46and he's here and he's here to talk
1:48about it it's an incredible story he
1:50wrote about it in his best-selling book
1:52adrift 76 days lost at sea which was a
1:56new york times bestseller for 36
1:58weeks and i am honored
2:01to introduce you to stephen callahan sir
2:05welcome to the show
2:06thanks for having me i appreciate it
2:08first off uh
2:10how you feeling how you doing oh i'm
2:13doing okay for an old fella you have to
2:15remember this story as a
2:17i call it my my old fishtail um
2:20you know it was way more than half my
2:22life time ago uh
2:24now and uh so it's it's kind of in the
2:27rear view mirror in many ways but it's
2:29surprising to me
2:30uh that it's uh as my wife call it sort
2:33of the energizer bunny it just keeps on
2:35going
2:36and going uh i don't know i guess uh
2:38survival is
2:39i guess in my view the uh universal
2:42human issue uh we we face different
2:46circumstances but
2:47uh we all we all do it on a day-by-day
2:49basis to greater or lesser degree so i
2:51guess that's
2:52part of the attraction well i mean
2:56something is timeless when it's as
2:57incredible as what you went through
2:59um when you were younger who got you
3:02into boating or selling
3:04was it something you just picked up on
3:06yourself was it a
3:07family member or a friend ah it's
3:10a bit of a mix uh you know i was a
3:12pretty small i was very small
3:15um kind of awkward socially awkward
3:18kid um uh into well into high school
3:22and uh i spent a lot of time by myself
3:26and um or with small groups of people
3:29basically running around in the woods
3:31climbing mountains spending time
3:33you know messing around at a pond that
3:36my family
3:36kind of created out of this old swamp
3:38and
3:41when i was about well when i was 11 i
3:44joined the boy scouts which
3:46was a normal thing back in that era
3:48anyway i don't know
3:49exactly how the boy scouts are doing now
3:50but it was pretty calm and then
3:53and uh that attracted me because the guy
3:56who ran
3:57our troop was um uh
4:00really sort of an ideal mentor uh
4:03he really wanted the kids themselves to
4:06basically run the troop and i became
4:10uh adept at dealing with things like you
4:12know working with rope and knives and
4:15uh doing first aid and all the all the
4:18stuff that the boy scouts really
4:19were involved within and our the troop
4:22was very active
4:23and in the outer doors we did a lot of
4:25you know climbing in the mountains
4:26and that sort of thing and he had a boat
4:28and asked me to go sailing with him
4:31i guess i was probably about 12 at the
4:33time
4:34and uh it was just a little day sailor
4:36and
4:37uh we would go off the coast until until
4:40we didn't see land anymore
4:42and i loved that i loved going into this
4:45new
4:45um wilderness environment
4:49and uh it everything sort of felt
4:52normal to me i i you know i remember one
4:55of the first
4:56times going offshore and he took the
4:58helm and i went and i just sort of laid
4:59down on the bottom of the boat when it
5:00was healed you know you're sort of
5:02eye level with the surface of the water
5:04and i
5:05i don't know whether it was kind of
5:06womb-like in a way and
5:08and i just felt at home there and i i
5:10seem to get it you know in terms of
5:12understanding the dynamics of it and not
5:14just in an
5:15intellectual way but sort of just in a
5:17very visceral
5:18physical way and uh and i ended up
5:21crewing
5:22with this guy honor into my college
5:25years
5:26uh and he was one like i say a wonderful
5:28mentor we were partners on the boat i
5:30always felt like a partner on the boat
5:31we made decisions together
5:33um i would navigate
5:36and you know do all the things you need
5:38to do on the boat so um
5:40that was really my start and i while a
5:43lot of boys in school were
5:44obsessed with um you know uh
5:48girls in cars i was obsessed probably
5:50with girls but they were kind of
5:52unreachable to me at the time
5:53and uh and and boats by the time i left
5:56high school
5:57i had was my after-school job was
6:00helping
6:01my dentist build a 40-foot trimaran and
6:05as my senior project i wanted to build a
6:07sailing hydrofoil
6:08actually uh but i couldn't afford it so
6:11um i settled on teaching myself
6:13celestial navigation and this mentor of
6:15mine
6:16uh we had moved up in boats to about a
6:1825-footer at that time that we were
6:20sailing from boston up to maine and
6:23uh in the summer times and uh
6:26uh he he basically let me borrow the
6:28boat take friends out or whatever and i
6:30started single handing off the coast of
6:31of new england which i don't think he
6:33ever really knew
6:34what i was doing with his boat but um he
6:37was very generous to me in that respect
6:39so that really got me into it and my
6:41big i don't any even books about
6:44sailing at that point in time um but of
6:48those that i
6:48read uh it included things like um
6:53uh robert mannery's tinkerbell he was a
6:56newspaper editor in the in the midwest
6:58who took a little boat that was
7:00normally you know would be sailed in
7:02guns and and things like that
7:04a 13 and a half foot town class sloop
7:06and and
7:07uh decked it over put a little cabin on
7:09it and sailed it to england and i
7:11thought wow wow you know that's
7:14that's incredible and i love you know
7:15books like contiki
7:17and also uh uh john guswell went around
7:20the world in
7:21a 21-footer so it opened up the
7:23possibility for me just sort of an
7:25average guy
7:26uh to see that i could lead some kind of
7:29life of adventure it was very very
7:31attractive to me at the time
7:32tell me a little bit about napoleon solo
7:35which was the ship
7:36that sank leaving you
7:39in the atlantic on a life raft tell me a
7:42little bit about it because i know you
7:43built it you designed it
7:46um well i was i guess i was probably
7:4927 or so when i designed napoleon solo
7:52when i
7:53when i got out of i i went to university
7:56and when i got out
7:58i i worked in a shipyard for a very
7:59short while and uh
8:02but basically uh it in that time you
8:05know i
8:05i think sailing has always reflected
8:08what's going on in society overall
8:10and you have so you have to kind of get
8:12back to the history of that time
8:14and uh you know there was a big back to
8:16the land movement
8:18uh a lot of interest in people of my age
8:20group to getting
8:21back close to nature and in in dealing
8:24with things in
8:25in a i don't know less technocratic way
8:28maybe if you will
8:29and uh there was also sort of a
8:30seasteading movement as a friend of mine
8:33coined the term um that reflected that
8:35where a lot of people were building
8:37their own boats and
8:38and that sort of thing in leading uh an
8:41alternative lifestyle on boats also
8:43wooden boats were dead cheap then
8:45everybody was giving them away
8:46essentially
8:48and so we had these like little
8:49liveaboard communes
8:51in in uh in in various towns
8:54and uh when i got out of school uh i
8:57built a
8:5828-footer uh with my first wife and
9:02um we lived on that for a number of
9:04years and i was building helping other
9:06people build boats
9:08and but i was also very interested in
9:09design my father was an architect i grew
9:11up drawing
9:12and was interested in the design process
9:15so i was
9:16taking a correspondence school and then
9:19through all of this we moved to maine
9:21uh where my wife was doing organic
9:23farming and i was
9:24uh i i was i was still messing around in
9:27boats
9:27and uh i ended up working for a naval
9:30architect
9:30near here both designing and and as it
9:33turned out teaching design
9:35um but my main goal was
9:38to uh at that point was uh was to follow
9:42manri
9:42basically to cross an ocean in a small
9:44boat so
9:46i had uh i had already started creating
9:48the ideas for napoleon solo my whole
9:50idea was to
9:51create a very compact
9:54um but efficient
9:58lifestyle aboard this boat so
10:01it was just like you say it was 21 feet
10:03it's kind of like a camper van going
10:05across the atlantic
10:06there had been other boats that small
10:08going across the atlantic before but
10:10um i wasn't out to set a record but what
10:12i wanted to do was
10:14to design a boat that performed pretty
10:15well uh
10:17using sort of modern technology and and
10:20all of that
10:21but uh but that out actually would be
10:23would
10:24serve as a minimalist home uh for a long
10:27period of time so
10:29uh in 19 i guess we launched the boat in
10:341980 uh sailed it
10:36from annapolis up to massachusetts
10:39through a pretty stormy fall
10:41given a good shake down and the next
10:44spring i took off from newport rhode
10:47island on
10:48on on this venture um which started
10:50started out
10:52actually a little badly i i ended up
10:54making a mistake and losing the mass so
10:56i had a jury rigged the mast and
10:58sailed the boat back to uh to rhode
11:01island and
11:02re-rigged it and then sailed it back to
11:04bermuda again that that leg
11:05single-handed and where a friend of mine
11:08uh chris from
11:09canada who helped me build the boat
11:11joined me and we
11:13we sailed the boat together uh the rest
11:15of the way to england which was
11:17an incredible i don't know it just
11:19fulfilled all of my
11:20childhood goals and uh so i felt very
11:24uh i don't know fulfilled and and at
11:27ease once we got to england
11:29but i had no idea what was going to be
11:30the next step at that point i was you
11:32know 29 years old and
11:35i was going to start a race from there
11:36to the caribbean but basically that was
11:38an excuse to get the boat back sort of
11:40back home
11:41and uh uh i left
11:44pinzance england in this race it was
11:47very very stormy actually we lost one
11:49sailor
11:49on the way to the race almost lost
11:52another who was caught in the middle of
11:53a hurricane
11:54um and he finally made it showed up very
11:58late
11:58uh but uh the first few days of the race
12:02were very stormy and we got down from
12:04england you go
12:05down around you know the edge of france
12:07there between there and spain you got
12:09the bay of biscay which is pretty
12:10notorious because it shells up very
12:12quickly
12:13and uh with it blowing really hard the
12:16waves are really horrible and and we
12:17lost
12:18actually i can't remember how many boats
12:20but four or five boats
12:22and i i had some damage and so i i
12:24dropped out of the race
12:25and uh then started basically cruising
12:29down the coast of
12:31of uh spain and portugal which was
12:33wonderful it was like stepping back
12:35200 years almost um uh and
12:39it was just fantastic and made my way
12:42out to
12:43madeira down to the canary islands where
12:45it's been a few months and then
12:46left there to basically take the milk
12:48run which should be the easiest part of
12:50the voyage i'd already gone across the
12:52northern part of the north atlantic
12:53which is stormy and horrible and
12:55in many ways um uh in the southern part
12:59uh from the canaries to the caribbean
13:01uh is all basically you get down into
13:03the trade winds
13:04you you're going with the current with
13:06the winds so um
13:07i had a lovely week until all hell broke
13:10loose
13:11so you've already done a transatlantic
13:14on a boat you built yourself that's
13:16about the size of a large suv which is
13:19which is kind of crazy to think about
13:21and you're on your way back on
13:24what you call the milk run and you wake
13:26up
13:27to an impact and you see you've got a
13:30hole
13:31in napoleon solo yeah how long
13:36was the middle of the night um and it
13:38was blowing up pretty hard
13:40um it was on its way to being a gale i
13:42don't know if it was gale conditions
13:43exactly at that time i didn't really
13:45have a wind meter or anything but
13:47the waves were i don't know three meters
13:49about ten feet high on average
13:51so that's sort of the significant wave
13:52height and um
13:54which sounds kind of big but that's not
13:56really huge
13:58in ocean terms and i'd been i'd face
14:01those kind of worse conditions than that
14:03on the boat before so i wasn't too
14:05concerned uh but i
14:08i'm always cautious and you're always
14:09looking we have us we have an
14:11expression you know a good sailor uh
14:15always always prepares for the worst and
14:17lets the best take care of itself
14:19sure so i would you know get up and kind
14:22of
14:22inspect the boat and make sure
14:24everything was okay and i finally got
14:26tired uh you know of you know
14:29being clothed and laying down i wasn't
14:31really sleeping not that you sleep that
14:33well being single-handed anyway but you
14:34sleep for maybe an hour at a time or
14:36something
14:37and uh and so i finally stupidly took
14:40almost all my clothes off everything but
14:41a t-shirt and and laid down and
14:44sometime around sort of local midnight
14:46if you will
14:47um there was a big bash on the side of
14:49the boat and
14:50water came flooding and like really like
14:52you just opened up a fire hydrant and i
14:54knew the boat was doomed
14:55like immediately we also have another
14:58saying never
14:59you always step up to the life raft you
15:01never want to get in a life raft unless
15:02you know
15:03that your boat is actually pretty much
15:06doomed
15:07um and fortunately for me i had prepared
15:11the boat
15:12pretty well i had watertight
15:13compartments in it and and all of that
15:15and
15:16it finally it stabilized in the water
15:18after a couple of minutes i was i
15:20thought it was going to go straight down
15:21because the main part of the
15:23accommodation was hold
15:24in a bigger boat i could have
15:26compartmentalized the boat to where it
15:28could have actually
15:29had enough air in it in these
15:32compartments to keep it afloat but in a
15:33small bowl like that pretty much
15:35impossible
15:35so fortunately for me it nose down so
15:39the whole
15:40forward half of the boat was under water
15:42but the back half had
15:43developed another additional air lock
15:46the way it was going down
15:47and and that gave it enough buoyancy
15:49that it just stayed afloat but of course
15:51every wave was washing right over it so
15:54um but those those airtight compartments
15:57those were buying you time
16:00i mean so during this okay you know the
16:03clock is ticking
16:04you've seen the damage you've already
16:06said okay this thing's this thing's
16:07going down
16:08talk to me about the thought process
16:11after the impact
16:12well i think you know i've talked to
16:15i've spent
16:16much like you guys i've spent a lot of
16:18time talking to survivors over the last
16:20uh i don't know 38 years i've known some
16:23before then too as well especially
16:25sailors
16:26um and and i i don't think my experience
16:29is
16:30is uh completely unique in terms of like
16:33the stages that people go through
16:35and thought processes and the thought
16:37process isn't just
16:39one thing um i had uh
16:42uh and i talked about this through a
16:44drift especially the long experience
16:46like this where and
16:47being alone where i kind of divide
16:49myself into a physical part and a
16:52rational part and an emotional part that
16:54all have kind of competing needs if you
16:56will and desires
16:58and and and they aren't always the same
17:00thing some sometimes they're
17:01they're quite diametrically opposed so
17:04there's a lot of strain from that and
17:05even in this initial
17:07what i call the the stage of impact uh
17:10sort of escaping the immediate threat
17:12um i found that i had all these voices
17:16going on in my head there was part of me
17:17that was being like
17:18incredibly wimpy and you know you're
17:20going to die you're going to die you
17:21know and then another part of me that
17:22was cut the rational part of me that had
17:24been
17:25uh more used to dealing with various
17:28levels of
17:29crisis at sea and uh and it was saying
17:32i'll just shut the hell up and
17:34you know focusing on what i actually had
17:36to do and there was even once i got i
17:38got up on deck where i was gonna inflate
17:40the life raft
17:41um i had noticed that the camera on the
17:43aft end of the boat had
17:45somehow turned itself on um electrical
17:48system had
17:49fused together uh and uh
17:53i found that quite amusing um
17:56in a sort of dark gallows humor kind of
17:59way
17:59so um i don't know you have all these
18:02voices going on in your head of time
18:04at least i did and um part of
18:07some of us uh i i think i'm sure you
18:10guys are among this group because you're
18:11used to dealing with um a lot of
18:15stressful situations
18:17um you can kind of learn how to do the
18:20psychological splitting is
18:21as we call it where you know you can
18:23kind of put aside yeah
18:25it's not that it's not that you're not
18:27scared you're scared to death
18:28um but you can kind of shove that to the
18:31side to a certain degree
18:32and uh and and focus on what you need to
18:35do so i
18:37you know i basically got the raft
18:38inflated uh you're supposed to pick up
18:40this hundred pound
18:41thing and you know put it over the side
18:44but you're on this bucking bronco in the
18:45middle of a storm being washed over but
18:48fortunately for me sort of overboard was
18:49on board so i just kind of inflated it
18:51and
18:52slid off and got in but i knew i was um
18:57pretty much right in the middle of the
18:59atlantic ocean and i knew where i would
19:01be drifting to which would be downwind
19:03down current almost 2000 miles to the
19:05caribbean and i knew that what was in
19:07the raft itself was
19:09not enough to keep me alive probably for
19:11very long but i had this big ditch kit
19:13in the boat and other stuff and jugs of
19:17water and all kinds of things
19:18and so i i took the chance to get back
19:22on the boat
19:22dive down inside and i ended up getting
19:24a a piece of cushion
19:26and a sleeping bag which was completely
19:28sodden but it still was
19:30insulation possible insulation and uh
19:33and in the ditch kit which had a lot of
19:36critical equipment in it
19:37um and but i was
19:40i was exhausted uh and it was cold
19:44enough at night where hypothermia was an
19:46issue
19:47um so i was hanging on to the boat
19:50hoping that i could
19:51await the daylight where i could
19:52actually physically see what damage was
19:54done because it was you know you got to
19:56remember this middle of the night it was
19:57dark i couldn't really see what had
19:59happened to the boat
20:00and of course having fantasies about oh
20:02maybe i can you know i've been pretty
20:04good
20:05with jury rigging things maybe i can
20:07maybe i can figure out a way of fixing
20:08this or at least patching it up enough
20:10where i can get the water out and
20:12continue on the voyage or at least get
20:13more food and water
20:18but like i say you know you're you're
20:20basically
20:21anchored in the ocean to this boat full
20:24of water
20:24and the raft is really light and
20:26bobbling around on the top of it and
20:28every wave that was breaking hitting the
20:30raft was like being in an auto accident
20:33so
20:34um i was worried the raft might get torn
20:36apart and
20:37finally a wave hit and and there was
20:40relative pieces in the raft and
20:41i was like oh goodness and i put my head
20:43out and i was drifting away from the
20:45boat obviously the
20:46link that i had to the boat had parted
20:48and off i went
20:50did uh everything the mixed blessing
20:52like like that everything in the in the
20:53survival situation as far as i'm
20:55concerned has a sort of
20:57up and down side or almost everything
20:59anyway and
21:00uh so you you know the downside
21:02obviously you know okay there goes all
21:04food water
21:05hope of you know getting out of this
21:08thing
21:09and you i felt just like completely
21:11hopeless in a way
21:13for for days and a period which
21:16many of us call recoil or i call it
21:18disorientation and fear
21:21um which is you know after you you've
21:23escaped the immediate threat it's like
21:25oh all the old rules of your life have
21:27gone away
21:28how do i make a living out here how can
21:30i possibly survive out here and
21:32and it's an extremely difficult period
21:35actually in some ways probably the
21:38the most difficult to navigate until you
21:40can kind of
21:41adapt and and for me that took two weeks
21:45um i want to get into that here in a
21:47minute but i had a question
21:48and this was something that i found to
21:50be kind of interesting and and
21:52really was sort of surprised by
21:55you write in the book that you believe
21:57you were
21:58impacted by a will and this is something
22:01that actually occurs
22:03fairly frequently i had no idea that was
22:05something that
22:07is definitely a threat for for boaters
22:09and and folks out in the ocean like that
22:11uh explain a little bit
22:13more about that yeah um
22:16you know the the ocean is a very big
22:19wilderness
22:20and it is incredible that you can think
22:23that
22:24you know it's got no roadways or
22:26anything that everybody follows but
22:28but it it it always amazes me how often
22:32uh you know a ship in a boat going in
22:34different directions can
22:35have to change course in order to avoid
22:38one another
22:39and besides that there's
22:42a lot of stuff afloat in the ocean and
22:45probably more now than
22:47ever before but even back i've
22:51you know i i'd already passed uh bits of
22:54old boat you know the
22:56god knows where that came from or all
22:58kinds of trash
23:00uh whole trees afloat containers uh
23:03there's a lot of stuff to hit out there
23:04but
23:05included in that are also you know sea
23:07creatures big wave
23:08you know whales uh big sharks um sea
23:11monsters i suppose
23:13um i've seen things you know in
23:16you know you see this light patch in the
23:18water you don't really know what it is
23:19under there
23:20um but uh i'd even hit a whale
23:23uh race we were racing to bermuda um
23:27in i don't know a couple years i guess
23:30it was 1979
23:31actually just a couple years beforehand
23:34and i was steering
23:35and we were entering the gulf stream and
23:37the gulf stream some it's
23:39different but it's you know a lot of
23:40current and everything and it creates
23:42very jagged waves at times and uh you
23:45see it on the horizon and once we got
23:46into this there wasn't that much wind
23:48but
23:48really bouncy waves and all of a sudden
23:50boom right in front of the boat was just
23:52like the sunken log
23:53big sunken log and it was a sperm whale
23:56i put the helm down but there was no way
23:58to avoid the whale we smacked into it
24:01and uh it came up a stern
24:04writhing around and started steaming
24:06towards us which looked like the old
24:08moby dick kind of
24:09really scenario you know waves coming
24:12off his head streaming right at him so
24:14basically you kind of you pissed it off
24:16this thing off now
24:18and uh uh it just followed us for a
24:21while and turned around and
24:22and went its own way but you know whales
24:24are complex creatures
24:26and i i i always feel like each one has
24:29its own personality could just as easily
24:31come up and really
24:32given us a clobber but um
24:35a num a huge number of us
24:39have hit whales before there there were
24:42at least
24:42and and hopefully maybe even a few more
24:45now uh quite a quite a few of them out
24:46there and i've
24:47you know looked down their blow holes
24:48from beside the boat and i've been
24:51really close to them a lot but
24:52you know a small boat especially in a
24:54stormy kind of condition
24:56uh it's a sailboat it's not doesn't have
24:58an engine on or anything
25:00and you know you got breaking sound or
25:01breaking waves i i just feel like you
25:03know i was probably a whale just
25:05minding its own business steaming along
25:07and then boom i was like oh my god you
25:09know
25:10i just bumped my head i wonder what that
25:12was
25:13and uh but but i've had you know quite a
25:16number of friends who've
25:17hit wales before so it's it's not that
25:20unusual
25:21so so steve you um
25:25you talk about immediate actions and
25:26sort of just that
25:28survival instinct short time got to get
25:30into it got to do this got to do this
25:32got to do this you were smart enough to
25:33go and
25:34realize that you dove back down onto
25:37and got some supplies that taking that
25:40action getting the sleeping bag that
25:42probably
25:43is the reason why you're still here
25:44today uh but then the reality
25:48of seeing napoleon solo drifting away
25:51from you
25:52you're on a six foot life raft by
25:54yourself
25:55when did the mindset go from immediate
25:58actions
25:59when did the adrenaline wear off and it
26:02really sunk in
26:04[ __ ] i am in the middle of the atlantic
26:06ocean
26:08uh pretty much right away actually as
26:10soon as i was drifting off from the boat
26:12it was like
26:13oh thank god it's more peaceful and i'm
26:15at least not really
26:17worried so much about the raft being
26:19ripped apart because that was a
26:21real conundrum like hang on to the boat
26:23or not
26:25and uh but then it was i don't know it
26:28was a really dismal period for me
26:30um first of all i was really cold so
26:34getting through the night and then
26:36ensuing nights um
26:38because i'm soaking wet i'm in a
26:41relatively cold environment not
26:43freezing not like the north part of the
26:46north atlantic but it was cold enough to
26:47have
26:48like snow up in the in the in the
26:50mountains and the canaries before i left
26:51so
26:52it's probably in the 50s i would guess
26:54something like that and
26:56water temperature maybe 70 ish
27:00and when you're soaked like that and the
27:01wind's blowing and everything i mean i
27:03had a canopy over the raft fortunately
27:05which kept a lot of the wind off me but
27:07but
27:07just staying warm was difficult so it
27:09was kind of a split thing one is you
27:11know dealing with the physical
27:12part of it and i was well enough trained
27:15i guess and experienced
27:17and knowledgeable to know what the the
27:19main risks were
27:20um i had some injuries but nothing
27:23serious there's not much you can do
27:24about a serious engineering a life raft
27:26and of course that can kill you in
27:28seconds to minutes um and then after
27:31that then
27:32the major risk of of course is is
27:35hypothermia drowning
27:37um well i was okay about the drowning
27:39issue but
27:40hypothermia it can certainly kill you in
27:42minutes to hours
27:44and that was the major concern
27:46immediately i knew i wouldn't have to
27:48worry about
27:49food and water for days at least um
27:52and actually a lot of people think food
27:53immediately and it's like wow you can
27:55live about a month without food so
27:57you know that what really wasn't the
27:58major concern uh
28:00and and i think that uh uh
28:03there was again there were different
28:05parts of me there was there was a big
28:06part of me and it's hard
28:07not to get overwhelmed by it that struck
28:10immediately which was
28:11a feeling of complete doom there's like
28:13there's no way i'm gonna
28:14even get to the shipping lanes i have
28:16eight pints of water but the shipping
28:17lanes are more than two weeks away
28:19i'm probably going to be dead by the
28:20time i even get there
28:22um i'm in a very empty part of the
28:25atlantic ocean i had an epirb
28:27[Music]
28:28like a a radio uh you know transmitter
28:31that would do a
28:33sort of sos out uh but at the time uh
28:36actually wouldn't be till the next fall
28:37that they were being monitored by
28:38satellite
28:39you know you had that'd be an over
28:41overpassing aircraft and i was in a part
28:43of the ocean that was
28:44pretty much devoid of of anything like
28:47that
28:47so if you if you could have delayed this
28:50by a few months you would have had
28:51aed curb you would have been out there
28:54for a couple days right
28:55right hopefully actually sort of an
28:57irony i came back
28:58to uh you know to maine after all of
29:00this and uh was speaking to a friend of
29:02mine about uh a
29:04fabulous sailor and boat designer friend
29:06of mine walter green
29:07who lives down in the southern part of
29:10of uh maine
29:11and walter was asking me you know he's
29:13he's a very curious guy
29:14and uh he was asking me you know what
29:17what kind of equipment would you
29:19would you have carried if you had it and
29:21you know one thing i said was like
29:22well we have these new things called
29:24handheld vhf radios they aren't
29:26waterproof but you can put them in a
29:27waterproof pouch and i said
29:29that would have really helped because i
29:30probably could have at least talked to
29:31one of the ships that passed me by
29:33um even if you even if they don't not
29:36all monitoring radio and my experience
29:38had been that maybe 50
29:40you get an answer from uh the radio room
29:43but
29:44but 50 would have saved me within a
29:46couple of weeks
29:47anyway or within a week um and the other
29:50thing
29:50thing uh was that uh
29:54the satellite started monitoring epirbs
29:56and that fall he was on a trimaran that
29:58got capsized and he had a handheld vhf
30:00radio with him and
30:02he was p the his epirb was picked up by
30:04satellite and when the
30:05when a ship was diverted to pick him up
30:07he was able to communicate with a ship
30:09and and be much more effective in in
30:11getting his crew off that boat so
30:13so you you were you're saving lives
30:16based on your experience essentially
30:17there's a great example right there
30:20i i don't know i don't know if i saved
30:22lives but hopefully i haven't heard too
30:23many
30:24um and uh and and hopefully have
30:27over the years provided some functional
30:31advice to people that's that's helped
30:33them out so steve you're
30:36into what ends up being 76 days
30:39adrift and i love getting into the
30:41mindset because
30:42you went from like we discussed earlier
30:44the immediate actions too
30:45uh i write about this in my book a
30:47long-haul survival strategy where you
30:49kind of
30:50make that switch into i i could be out
30:53here
30:54for a long time what what am i going to
30:57do
30:57do i discuss creating little victories
31:00to get you from one day to the next like
31:02a great example is
31:04the pows in the hanoi hilton
31:07john mccain talked about he got a
31:08cockroach that was a victory that that
31:11got him to the next day
31:12did you create sort of little timelines
31:15little goals
31:16little things once you realize hey i'm i
31:19might be in this
31:20for 76 days to kind of get you
31:23through the afternoon through the
31:25evening
31:26through the sunset to the sunrise
31:29anything like that that you kind of
31:30started creating
31:32uh yeah actually um like i say
31:35the the first two weeks are really
31:36difficult because i was you know beating
31:38myself up pretty bad
31:40uh in terms of you know
31:43god what a boneheaded move you shouldn't
31:44be out here i'd go back and
31:47realize you know all the failures of my
31:48life oh you sucked at business you
31:50sucked at relationships you
31:52you know you really you know this is
31:55your life now i mean
31:57like this is what it's all amounted to
31:58you know i i
32:00i had my 30th birthday in the life raft
32:02a couple of days
32:03at intuit and i kind of i was
32:07cutting up i i had taken this float off
32:10the boat and was cutting it up
32:12and putting notes on it and tossing them
32:14out hoping that
32:15they might go out and somebody might
32:17find them in uh
32:19and and know that i was adrift out there
32:22um and i i kind of wrote my own epitaph
32:25you know
32:26and drew a few you know made a few
32:28pictures you know designed a couple of
32:29boats
32:30died you know it just seemed so empty
32:32and it was really really hard to
32:34get through this period of of beating
32:37myself
32:38up um and seeing that i could
32:42survive but um that more rational part
32:45of me
32:45and uh that had faced things before
32:49uh difficulties in life um i'm
32:52i'm pretty persistent about things and
32:55uh so no matter how i'm feeling i keep
32:57trying to chip away at things and and i
32:59guess as an overall concept uh one thing
33:02i try
33:02i i convinced myself of very early on
33:06pretty much immediately was look this
33:08isn't the end of a voyage it's just a
33:10continuation in a more
33:12humble craft than i had not that my
33:14craft wasn't pretty humble to begin with
33:16but this is a really humble craft
33:18um and i know that other people
33:22have done this before um i carried a
33:25survival manual
33:26written by doula robertson who wrote a
33:29fantastic book survive the savage seas
33:31who was adrifted with his family in the
33:33pacific for 38 days i'd read the baileys
33:36who were
33:36almost four months adrift a couple and
33:38they had fortunately a couple of wraps
33:41i i had my own you know i don't know i
33:44look at
33:44survival situations is we have
33:46commonalities but uh everyone is
33:48every single instance is completely
33:50unique as well
33:52and and so i knew i had my unique
33:54problems to deal with
33:55but i tried to normalize life as much as
33:58possible so that meant
33:59you know first of all i was doing
34:01exercises whenever i could i had
34:03developed these sort of modified yoga
34:06exercises because i had
34:08back issues and i was paranoid that they
34:10might act up which
34:12could kill me um i started keeping a log
34:15right away as long as it was i was wet
34:18pretty much half the time through the
34:20whole voyage but there would be times
34:22where
34:22it calmed down enough where i could
34:24actually take out these little pads of
34:25paper and start
34:26keeping notes doing navigation um
34:30doing all the normal shipboard routines
34:32i could within reason
34:34and then of course you know you have to
34:36live out you
34:37learn to live off the environment in a
34:39general sense i i consider
34:40you know i've always described the
34:42voyage of in if you want to summarize it
34:44in a
34:45in a sentence is you know i basically
34:47spent two and a half months learning to
34:48live like an aquatic caveman
34:50and it takes a while to develop
34:54the skills and adapt to this new
34:56environment but
34:57everything that floats in the ocean
34:59becomes an island
35:00it develops an ecology and that's what
35:03we ocean survivors
35:04rely upon over the long term you know
35:07weeds grow
35:08barnacles or barnacles grow on the raft
35:10and little fish
35:12show up and that attracts bigger fish
35:14and so on and so forth and
35:16and that's what we rely upon is as we
35:18drift across the ocean but it takes a
35:20while for this to evolve
35:22so initially you know you're looking out
35:24at the ocean and it's like beautiful you
35:26know like a
35:26swimming pool three miles deep um
35:29just just gorgeous but it's empty uh
35:32pretty much but
35:33um within a couple of days fish started
35:36showing up
35:37um and so i started the process of
35:40learning
35:40how to become this aquatic caveman but
35:42it did take me about two weeks so
35:45getting back to your your specific
35:46question yes
35:48uh what i try to encourage people to do
35:51is if you're facing a a crisis a trauma
35:56uh of some sort you know you know where
35:58you got to go
35:59you know what the end point is but don't
36:01obsess about it
36:02instead you have to divvy it up into
36:05little
36:06chunks little achievable goals
36:09so that's what i would do you know i
36:11would every day i was like go through
36:13prioritize what needs the most oh well
36:16raph needs pumping up you've got to do
36:17that
36:17develop a routine um and
36:21you know i'm sure you you know this as
36:24well
36:24as you know there's really no crisp
36:27dividing line between normal life and
36:29survival it's just
36:30survive you know survival is life on
36:32steroids and
36:33i found that um you you still have the
36:36hot you still
36:38have highs you still have lows but
36:39they're just epic highs and epic lows
36:42and they can be
36:42squished right up against one another so
36:45um
36:45the highs can be something like you know
36:47when i first got in the raft i had all
36:49these little jets of water coming up
36:51because the
36:51knife i used to cut my ditch kit away
36:53and whatnot and the chaos and getting
36:55out of the boat
36:56had laid on the bottom of the raft and
36:59cut my rear end up some and
37:01poked a couple of little holes in the
37:02boat and on the bottom of the raft which
37:04is a
37:05just a thin sheet of rubber basically
37:07eighth inch reinforced rubber
37:09and so that meant i had these little
37:11geysers coming up and i'd be sitting in
37:13water all the time so i had to plug them
37:15up and you know they're okay how do i do
37:17this well the plugs don't fit okay what
37:19do i do
37:21well sometimes survival demands that you
37:24create
37:24more damage in order to fix something
37:28we see this even in companies that shut
37:29down you know they might be productive
37:32profitable portions of the company but
37:34they're not profitable enough or they
37:36have their own issues or
37:37you know things are evolving so you know
37:39people
37:41sometimes uh create a little bit more
37:44damage in order to to to succeed in the
37:47long run and that was a case of where
37:49yeah i had to cut
37:50actually make the holes in the bottom of
37:52the raft a little bit bigger
37:53which allowed me to put these plugs in
37:55and lash them up and so on and ah guess
37:57what
37:58the bottom of the raft is dry for the
38:00first time in three days oh my god it's
38:02just
38:02wonderful and um you know these kind of
38:06things kind of keep you going but
38:08another five minutes later all of a
38:09sudden the raft is turned almost upside
38:11down
38:11it scoops up all this water you bail it
38:13out and then
38:15five minutes later same thing happens
38:17and and
38:18and so so my emotions would
38:21go through these huge waves but i just
38:24try to
38:25as best i could you know focus on on
38:28what
38:28needed to be done all these little
38:30achievable steps you know
38:32navigate how do i do that how do i catch
38:34a fish how do i make a lure how do i do
38:36this how do i do that
38:37you know there there's an amazing
38:40recurring theme
38:41uh with folks who are involved in
38:43situations like you were
38:45and it is the never quit keep fighting
38:48stay in the game you were exercising
38:51doing chores
38:52created routines that you had to do
38:55and that keeps you busy and i think it
38:57keeps your brain in the right space
39:00which is not quitting not giving up
39:03did you ever cross that line
39:07and say you know what i think just
39:09shutting it down right now
39:10might be easier or did you always stay
39:13in the fight
39:16i'm i don't know i guess i'm
39:19in in a general sense a pretty
39:20optimistic person and
39:22um even though there was a part of me
39:25certainly that was saying
39:27you're done you know you're never going
39:29to get out of this
39:31um there was there was that more
39:34rational part that that that always
39:36wanted to keep going because you know
39:39it had helped that i was aware that
39:41other people been
39:42adrift for long periods of time they
39:44gave me an inspiration
39:46to to do it um there were
39:49there was also um i have to say um
39:52throughout the voyage and this
39:55especially in this one period of time
39:57where i really did almost just
39:59finally pack it in um i felt a kind of
40:03silent knee of uh of survivors
40:07everywhere in the world i i was worried
40:09enough i traveled around and realized
40:11that
40:11many people spend their entire life in
40:14survival situations and i just needed to
40:17chip off these little
40:18bits across the chart and i knew if i
40:21could hang on long enough there i would
40:24reach my destination and be safe so
40:27it that was that was hopeful um
40:31and i i would go through these big waves
40:34and have
40:34tantrums on occasion you know i'd break
40:36down and cry and yell and scream at the
40:38ocean and
40:39do all this other stuff and some of it
40:41wasn't rational at all and there was
40:43you know that part of me going oh this
40:45is silly why are you being like this and
40:47then there was another part of me saying
40:48i don't care
40:49i just feel like doing this right now um
40:51so everybody has to deal with it in
40:52their own way but
40:53you know i i kept plugging away but um
40:57in in adapting uh and i got to a point
41:01after
41:01a couple of weeks where i was catching
41:03fish producing water and feeling pretty
41:05positive
41:06because it was like i by that time i had
41:08reached this period of adaptation
41:10uh which i define as you know okay
41:12you've you've created a new world and
41:14you can live in that
41:16indefinitely as long as nothing else
41:18goes wrong so you kind of put yourself
41:20in
41:20you kind of put yourself in the after
41:23that the pity
41:24and the um i don't know the depression
41:28you
41:29went into sort of a mental cruise
41:32control
41:32given this is my new norm uh yeah and
41:35it's
41:36like i say you know i i feel like i
41:39don't know they're not these like
41:40crisp dividing lines between different
41:42stages and all of that because
41:43you know as you were saying you know we
41:45have these little victories that keep us
41:48going
41:49um but sometimes you you you get set
41:51back you know you're constantly getting
41:53set back and then
41:55maybe you can edge forward a little bit
41:57make a little bit of progress in your
41:58adaptation and so on but when you get
42:00set back yeah there are a lot of times
42:01where it's just like oh my god
42:03it's i can't deal with this anymore but
42:05but i did
42:06i i want to get back to giving up
42:08because i did almost actually at one
42:10point um
42:11i'd had a a party for myself which was
42:13actually drink a little bit of water has
42:15been able to
42:17to create about a pint and a quarter a
42:19day which isn't
42:20a lot but um
42:23i actually drank a little bit of water
42:25on on the 38th day because
42:27that was the length of time duel
42:29robertson and his family had survived
42:31and i said oh my god i never thought
42:32i could do what they did but here i am
42:35still
42:36but just a couple of days later on the
42:3843rd day
42:40actually five days later um the dorado
42:43these big
42:44fish mahi-mahi you know they're pretty
42:46big powerful fish
42:48um they had routinely you know damaged
42:51or broken the spear gun that i was using
42:54to hunt them and this time they broke
42:56the shaft in half and rammed it into the
42:58bottom tube and it took me about 10 days
43:00to
43:01figure out a solution to this problem
43:03and without going into great detail
43:05because it's pretty complicated the
43:06um it basically meant that uh
43:10the raft only had a couple inches of
43:11freeboard so a lot of water was washing
43:14in and out of the raft and any kind of
43:15sizable waves and made it really
43:16difficult to produce water to fish to do
43:19any of these things and plus i wasn't
43:20really going anywhere and you know i
43:22wasn't drifting with the wind towards
43:23the caribbean
43:25so it was a really dismal period i had
43:28all kinds of problems and i just got
43:30worn out to the fat
43:31to the point of where i just laid back
43:34and you know water was kind of washing
43:35around me
43:36what not and i knew i was getting more
43:38hypothermic even though it wasn't that
43:39cold but over a long period of time you
43:41can get hypothermic without it being too
43:43cold
43:44and i knew i was just done and uh
43:48so that that came very close to the end
43:50but unfortunately for me i
43:53kind of you know slap myself awake and
43:55and said
43:56you know you know get over it so to
43:58speak and
44:00um and go through my i always always
44:03doing these mind games
44:05uh uh you know how to how to fix things
44:08or
44:09or how to approach problems and so i
44:11just forced myself to go through
44:13every single piece of everything that i
44:15had in the raft that might
44:17actually solve the problem and it dawned
44:20on me
44:21finally what i could do to fix it and
44:24and it had to do with a
44:26i had this fork actually a stainless
44:28steel fork that i could drive a pin
44:30down through this patch and it would
44:31keep it together um
44:33and i was like ha how come it took me 10
44:35days to figure this out
44:37but um in the end that was that was
44:39probably the biggest high
44:41of the whole voyage the biggest down was
44:43getting this big hole and dealing with
44:45it and then
44:46all of a sudden i do this thing and
44:49after this
44:50huge struggle the bottom tube ended up
44:53holding
44:53air better than the top tube and i i
44:55would i felt like i was the king of the
44:57world like i just solved you know
44:59all the world's problems um and that
45:02kept me going but i
45:03by that time my body was pretty beaten
45:06up
45:06and so for that whole last part of the
45:08voyage it was a matter i consider it a
45:10sort of a stage of hanging on
45:13well that's just another great example
45:15of you staying in the fight
45:16you know and you get that victory after
45:18what took 10 days
45:20and you were talking about being top of
45:21the world and staying in the game
45:24problem solving um i wanted to ask you
45:27you had that you talked about the
45:28dorados a little bit earlier
45:30and basically around your raft you sort
45:32of created this aquatic
45:34environment your own sort of aquatic
45:36environment and you realize hey
45:38you know my supplies are all but gone
45:41i'm gonna have to start getting fish
45:43and i can only imagine the isolation
45:47probably was incredibly difficult it had
45:49to be towards the top of the list
45:51after exposure and hunger and thirst and
45:53everything
45:54so you started creating sort of a family
45:58with the dorado you were naming some of
46:00them you recognized some of them
46:02and you had that as your family out
46:04there uh
46:05if i'm right on that and i can't wait to
46:07hear you discuss this a little bit
46:08but at the same time you realize if i'm
46:10going to survive
46:11i'm going to have to eat some of my
46:14family members here
46:15and i thought that was such a cool part
46:17of the book because
46:19there you are in this terrible situation
46:22doing everything you can to stay alive
46:25you create this
46:28lack of a better term sort of
46:29relationship with these fish
46:31which you realize i'm going to have to
46:33kill to stay alive
46:34could you discuss that a little bit yeah
46:37um
46:38actually you know i i i try to um
46:42convey to people that you know a adrift
46:45is really a fishtail
46:47uh it's i'm just the narrator i'm kind
46:50of like the
46:51the clumsy human observer in this
46:54incredible oceanic world
46:57uh that tested me but it also provided
47:00me with just enough
47:02um to get through it and in through the
47:05process
47:06um i was very touched uh i i think it's
47:11it's quite common uh as they say there's
47:14no
47:14um with their their um
47:19when you call it uh everybody in a
47:21foxhole is
47:22becomes religious or something right um
47:26i i don't have a formal religion i have
47:28my own i was a philosophy major in
47:30school and whatnot and i have my own my
47:32own but i felt very very
47:34spiritually touched through this
47:36environment and i don't think i'm alone
47:38and and in fact i know i'm not in
47:41looking back in the experience and
47:42realizing um
47:44that i was delivered a lot of precious
47:48gifts from it um finding out i was a lot
47:51stronger than i ever thought i was but
47:54also
47:55being pointed out quite clearly what my
47:57weaknesses were and
47:59and failures and things that i might be
48:01given a chance to fix in the future and
48:03the dorado really are the stars of the
48:06show
48:07um i i looked at them right away i found
48:10out that they were
48:11these you know fish school would
48:14first start with a couple of fish and
48:17then there'd be a couple more the next
48:18day it seemed like the raft was a point
48:20of rendezvous for them
48:21i was fascinated by them they were
48:23gorgeous
48:24they were also food which was very
48:27tempting but i found out right away that
48:29they were also
48:30really fast and really smart um
48:34and i i was unsuccessful catching them
48:36with line they would just like bite off
48:37the line then i find a piece of wire and
48:39with some other
48:40stuff and use it and they swim right and
48:43you know to get hooked and swim really
48:45fast forward and clip the line off in
48:46front of the wire so that was gone
48:48and fortunately i had the spear gun but
48:50i'm trying to
48:52get them close enough to the raft uh
48:54where i can spear them and
48:56they would do these sneak attacks and
48:57come up and bump me in the rear
49:00they do this they have this character a
49:02characteristic of
49:04of hitting the bottoms of rafts other
49:06people have noticed this too sharks do
49:08the same thing
49:09uh we're not really sure why they do
49:11this but uh
49:12they're powerful fish sue so i'd always
49:14make sure i had my head up on a
49:16my equipment bag or something if i was
49:18lying down on the raft because it'd be
49:20just like somebody coming up and
49:22slugging you as hard as they can right
49:23in the face
49:25and they would push the raft around in
49:27different ways i was you know
49:29i was interested in their society and
49:32how they were and but but also looking
49:34at them as food but
49:36uh initially of course they were
49:39primarily the food source but as time
49:41went on
49:42uh i was more and more fascinated by the
49:44fish and and
49:45view them quite frankly as is spiritual
49:48creatures and
49:50i felt as the time went on in the raft
49:53and
49:53and the experience evolved um
49:56more of a connection with the whole
49:58universe uh it wasn't like there's me
50:01and it but we're part of a continuum of
50:04it you know the ocean is
50:05always my universal metaphor and i look
50:07at things fluid like that like you know
50:10uh you know i i i call
50:13i i call call you kade because you know
50:16it's easily recognizing you
50:17at that and you call me steve but you
50:20know what are we really you know i don't
50:22want to get too abstract but you know
50:23we're a combination of things where you
50:25know
50:26we're everything we think we are but
50:27also everything everybody else thinks we
50:29are when we shake somebody's hand we
50:30exchange heat
50:32well whose is that and i started
50:34thinking about these things too
50:35you know in terms of the fish as i'm
50:37eating the fish you know i'm i'm taking
50:38their spirit
50:39within myself and i think there's a
50:41unique
50:43feeling towards animals when you depend
50:46on them i'm not talking about just
50:48doing it for for fun but when you depend
50:51on them for your very life uh you learn
50:54to respect them
50:55in their characteristics and iris hugely
50:58respected these fish
50:59and they became as you say
51:02you know there were they weren't only
51:04just food but they became my companions
51:06i would talk to them and
51:08they they would have these mysterious
51:10behaviors you know i never saw them
51:11touch one another and they were
51:13obviously very fast and
51:15soon into the into the experience you
51:17know prove that
51:18they could easily within 24 hours
51:20figured out the exact range of my spear
51:22gun
51:23but as time went on they seemed to
51:26allow me to you know i don't know maybe
51:28they just got me more used to me or
51:30something but they got close enough
51:31where i could
51:32actually spear them and by the end of
51:34the voyage i would you know i was
51:35then heat was heat in the afternoon was
51:37a real issue
51:38and i'd be like cooling myself off
51:40putting my arms down in the ocean
51:42swimming
51:43you know kind of swirling them around
51:46and on occasion i could actually touch
51:47them
51:48and and i can't tell you how spiritually
51:50touching that was
51:52for me it was it was incredible um
51:56these wild animals out in the middle of
51:58the wilderness maybe like
51:59walking up you know patting a bear or
52:01something or other to me
52:02so um yeah they really are the stars of
52:05the show they kept me uh
52:06they provided me with companionship uh
52:09food
52:10uh nourishment um they almost killed me
52:13on the 43rd day
52:15between there and the 50th day they were
52:17always a threat uh
52:18and in the very end they actually would
52:21provide my salvation
52:22so um they they really are the core
52:26core of of adrift just as being symbolic
52:29of the magic and the mystery
52:30of of the world that keep lets us all
52:34keep going what we have to talk about
52:37sharks steven
52:40yeah we could talk about sharks uh yeah
52:42it's actually kind of
52:45it's it's not that dramatic for me
52:47actually the the shark
52:49i mean not not that it wasn't at the
52:50time but um
52:52you know i was familiar with the
52:53survival stories of people in the
52:55pacific like the baileys and the
52:56robinsons and
52:57and and so on and and people in the
52:59pacific seem to
53:00uh who've been in the life rafts have to
53:02learn how to adapt to
53:04living with sharks around them all the
53:07time
53:08and that includes them coming up and you
53:10know running across the bottoms of rafts
53:12and obviously you're an inflated raft
53:14it's a pretty big threat
53:15um for me they were more episodic than
53:18that i don't know i had
53:20i don't know maybe nine encounters with
53:22sharks and they varied the first one was
53:25about two weeks into the voyage i just
53:26caught my first dorado
53:28actually which was one of those real
53:31high points you know ah
53:32i've got food and um
53:36i was lying down at night and all of a
53:39sudden there was like
53:40this across the bottom of the
53:44raft which was a dorado and then boom
53:46the whole raft gets
53:47kind of thrown up off the ocean and it
53:50was a shark that was obviously coming up
53:52after the diredo
53:53and uh and i you know
53:57totally freaked out but i had my little
53:59spear gun and i look out and you know
54:01anything that in
54:02the ocean pretty much that that's
54:04swimming around you know
54:06disturbs this um plankton plankton
54:09that's bioluminescent
54:10you know like billions of little
54:12fireflies
54:14um and which is quite beautiful um but
54:17that's the only thing i could see with
54:18the shark with these swirls of
54:19bioluminescence i
54:20jab at and jab at it and finally
54:24it it would go away and uh
54:27another time i was lying down in the
54:29afternoon i called it the afternoon
54:30bake off when it got really hot and i
54:33was just trying to stay
54:34cool and and reserve energy and all of a
54:37sudden the raft's being pulled around
54:38and you know the
54:40this shark had come up and there are
54:41these ballast pockets on the bottom
54:43of the raft that fill with water to try
54:45to keep it stable and
54:47waves and uh the rafted
54:51you know the shark had grabbed onto one
54:53of these pockets and was like jerking
54:55the whole raft around
54:56um so it it varied sometimes
54:59when i hold the bottom of the raft there
55:01was one that was kind of i called it the
55:02the water buzzard
55:04that's that obviously knew something was
55:06not right
55:08and uh it was just like circling around
55:11the raft for
55:12days you know and at night and all of a
55:14sudden i'm trying to patch the thing
55:16down in the water and
55:18uh you know all of a sudden this gray
55:20shape she's kind of slides right under
55:22my hands
55:23and uh but actually i was pretty i was
55:26pretty fortunate in that regard and i
55:28just approached them as one might uh
55:31other predator animals which is um
55:34basically show them that you're not
55:36going to be an easy easy target that you
55:38can
55:38you can you can be at least some kind of
55:40threat to them so
55:41i would poke at them with my little
55:43spear uh not expecting to actually do
55:46any damage but
55:47that seemed to work especially that
55:50sort of buzzard that was swirling around
55:53the raft he finally came by close enough
55:54i
55:55really hit him as hard as i could with
55:57the spear and they have these very
55:59sensitive lateral lines that run down
56:00the back of the sides of their
56:03uh of their bodies that pick up really
56:05minut
56:06vibrations in the uh in the ocean so i
56:09guess it would be like a meat
56:10you know just like hitting a real nerve
56:14and that shark just disappeared just
56:16like that i never actually i've never
56:18seen anything
56:19in the ocean disappear that fast so it
56:21must must have hit a soft spot
56:23yeah you know i had a similar situation
56:25i was swimming with sharks off nasa
56:27and uh all i had was a about a four foot
56:31piece of pvc pipe and i'll never forget
56:34it's one of those top ten experiences
56:36that's a photograph of my memory forever
56:38it turned and came toward me and the
56:41eyes rolled back
56:42and i punched it right there in the gill
56:45area
56:45gill section and that was like you said
56:47it was gone
56:49and so uh thanks to a piece of plastic
56:52i'm able to have this conversation with
56:53you
56:54um i gotta ask you what if you had to
56:57pick just one piece of gear that you had
56:59on that life raft what was the one thing
57:02that you're like i don't think i could
57:04have done it without
57:05this was it the spear gun what do you
57:07think
57:09i you know to be honest there's no way i
57:12could
57:12say there's one thing um there
57:16and i again i don't think this is unique
57:19i there's so
57:20many elements of my experience where if
57:23something had just gone
57:24a little bit different i wouldn't be
57:26here um
57:27and in terms of equipment that that
57:30obviously would include
57:32more than one thing if i didn't have the
57:33spear gun i wouldn't have been able to
57:37collect food over the long haul if i
57:39didn't have these solar stills which
57:41i managed to get working um i wouldn't
57:44have had
57:45enough water to to live for beyond i
57:48don't know
57:48probably two weeks at most with the
57:50water that i had stored because i had
57:52very little rain falling to
57:53towards the end of the voyage um
57:57but i would so i would include those i i
58:00even talked about this in adrift uh
58:02some of my favorite human inventions
58:05have always been
58:06rope and knives and and
58:10and both of those uh prove critical
58:13um because i could make because with
58:16those basic tools
58:17and with some of the raw materials you
58:19can make pretty much anything i mean i
58:22i i honestly i hear i live in the woods
58:25and whatnot and i grew up you know
58:27making stuff out of
58:28out of logs and rope and and stuff like
58:31that and
58:31uh and so they they were critical
58:33obviously um
58:36as well to me anyway uh i often point
58:40out that the pads of paper
58:42and pencils uh were which are also
58:47one of my favorite human inventions um
58:51they were as critical as having the this
58:53the spear
58:54or the raft itself or the
58:57or the the um
59:00or the solar stills but then there were
59:03also things like you know if i didn't
59:05have space blanket and stuff at the
59:06early part of the voyage i probably
59:07would have died a hypothermia before the
59:09next morning so
59:10you know there's a lot but the the paper
59:12and the pencils i often point out to
59:14people because you know
59:15for me they were a really critical tool
59:17because i could
59:19not only keep you know practical
59:20navigational notes and
59:22things like that um but also it allowed
59:25me to kind of separate myself from the
59:27uh from the experience psychologically
59:29where i could
59:30i could i could write you know and keep
59:31a log uh okay this is a continuation of
59:34voyage what do you do you keep a log and
59:36and and it's not just your position and
59:38whatnot but
59:39hey the dorito did this and this today
59:41isn't that incredible and it allowed me
59:43to kind of
59:44at least mentally
59:47recognize that there were precious
59:48things that were happening and
59:50and also you know form ideas and and
59:53just get myself a little bit out of the
59:55situation so i thought that they were
59:57really critical
59:58you know we touched on a little bit
1:00:00about the isolation factor and how
1:00:02absolutely challenging that probably was
1:00:04i wanted to ask you
1:00:05if you were with somebody else on that
1:00:07raft would that have been
1:00:09easier or do you think because of two
1:00:12people
1:00:12consuming water supplies you wouldn't
1:00:16have made it if there was a second
1:00:17person what are your thoughts on that
1:00:19well my my thoughts go to a general
1:00:22concept which is
1:00:23we and an adrift if they're they're kind
1:00:26of themes that run
1:00:27through the story of things i thought a
1:00:30lot about at the time
1:00:31and and one of those is is that your is
1:00:34that everything is paradoxical
1:00:36and uh your every every decision is a
1:00:39dilemma
1:00:40you know you use a little piece of
1:00:41equipment it's like well guess what if i
1:00:43use it if i use this to fix that
1:00:44guess what i'm not going to have that
1:00:46that piece of raw material to
1:00:48do something else that i might really
1:00:49need in the future
1:00:51um when it blows hard out well that's
1:00:54great because i'm drifting
1:00:55quickly towards my destination but it
1:00:57makes it hard to fish and hard to
1:00:59collect water so every situation
1:01:02every detail i try to accept well these
1:01:05are its
1:01:06qualities and you try to embrace the
1:01:09ones that are positive
1:01:10and just try to deal as best you can
1:01:12with the ones
1:01:13the ones that are that are negative um
1:01:17and um i guess my question was if there
1:01:19were two of you
1:01:21on that life raft do you do you think
1:01:24you think you would have survived
1:01:25i that was a question i asked myself
1:01:28quite frequently in the raft
1:01:30uh because um i realized that if i had
1:01:33had
1:01:34somebody else with me um well i couldn't
1:01:38keep a watch out for ships all the time
1:01:40maybe ships passed me by that i could
1:01:42have signaled and would have picked us
1:01:44up had there been somebody else to keep
1:01:46a constant
1:01:47watch um certainly when i
1:01:51ran into um different problems
1:01:56um somebody else who was brighter than
1:01:59me
1:01:59certainly could could have said hey
1:02:01dummy
1:02:02here's a here's here's a solution and i
1:02:04actually even have a
1:02:06very concrete example of that after this
1:02:08whole experience i don't know it was
1:02:10about 10 years later
1:02:11after a drift was published and i was
1:02:14doing a radio show with a bunch of kids
1:02:15in new york and this this young boy
1:02:18uh got on the line and and he's he said
1:02:22well you know i read your book and it
1:02:24was um
1:02:25uh it was interesting that you said that
1:02:27you didn't have you know you lost this
1:02:28wire leader and you didn't have any more
1:02:30wire to
1:02:31to to make leader from to catch the fish
1:02:34with the
1:02:34hook and line i said yeah and he goes
1:02:36yeah but early in the book you say well
1:02:38when you're first getting the raft
1:02:39there's a little light on the top of the
1:02:41raft right and i
1:02:42well yeah and he is well there's a
1:02:44little battery in
1:02:45in that floats around in the ocean that
1:02:48develops this current
1:02:49to power that light isn't there and i
1:02:51get yeah
1:02:52and he goes well isn't there like a wire
1:02:55that runs between the two
1:02:56and you know what it never ever dawned
1:02:59on me nor had it
1:03:00dawned on any other adult i had talked
1:03:02to the whole time so you never know
1:03:04there could have been somebody who would
1:03:06have been critical to my survival but on
1:03:08the other hand
1:03:10there's only i only had certain capacity
1:03:12to
1:03:13produce water uh which was already
1:03:17really on the edge for me through the
1:03:20whole voyage especially in the second
1:03:22half when
1:03:22i'm drifting really quite far south in
1:03:25the caribbean you know it's very very
1:03:26hot in the afternoon
1:03:28um so one of us probably would have died
1:03:31and
1:03:32to me i was very lucky to be alone
1:03:34because i didn't have to make a lot of
1:03:36very very difficult
1:03:37issues or decisions about you know
1:03:40well you know how do we share this and
1:03:42you get into those
1:03:43you know all those human issues to me
1:03:45make things
1:03:46they they take survival to a whole other
1:03:48level that i really don't have any
1:03:50direct experience with so
1:03:52and in some ways i regretted it but in
1:03:54some ways i was also thankful
1:03:56you know it's funny you tell that story
1:03:57about you know a kid with
1:03:59a completely different sort of hey what
1:04:01about that when i was a platoon
1:04:03commander i made sure after
1:04:04i briefed my platoon on this is how
1:04:07we're gonna do it
1:04:08the first thing i always did was i went
1:04:10to the most junior guy and i said
1:04:12what do you think because that might be
1:04:14a set of eyeballs
1:04:15and experience a background that sees
1:04:17something that nobody else is seeing so
1:04:19it's a really cool example that you just
1:04:21gave on that
1:04:22yeah actually i you know i wrote another
1:04:24book called capsize which is about four
1:04:26guys who were on a boat and they left
1:04:27new zealand headed for tonga
1:04:29in in the winter in new zealand and the
1:04:32boat got flipped upside down they spent
1:04:33four months on this
1:04:34half-flooded boat spending most of their
1:04:36time in this like little cave
1:04:38this area of the boat that they could
1:04:39all kind of cram into
1:04:41and uh the guy whose
1:04:45eyes i saw the uh the story through
1:04:48was um had never didn't know anything
1:04:51about boats
1:04:51nothing at all i mean he didn't know
1:04:53what a cleat was
1:04:54uh and that kind of fascinated me and
1:04:58interestingly um he became kind of
1:05:01i don't know the diplomat of the crew if
1:05:03you will there was a lot of tension
1:05:05um and his basic skill was um he was
1:05:08chef he was a good good cook and uh they
1:05:11were actually rigged up a little stove
1:05:12and whatnot and
1:05:14you know in these situations food you
1:05:16get pretty obsessive about food
1:05:18and uh and and so he he performed this
1:05:21kind of critical
1:05:22uh role in in the survival of the whole
1:05:25crew even though he didn't know
1:05:26a damn thing about the ocean or boat so
1:05:30that really intrigued me steve if you
1:05:33could call
1:05:34and have a 30-second conversation with
1:05:36the 28 year old
1:05:38steve callahan what would you tell them
1:05:41oh good question one thing that i found
1:05:46in life is that you know i've gone
1:05:48through
1:05:49other crises and and whatnot and
1:05:52uh they're never fun to go through um
1:05:55eventually one will kill me um
1:05:59but and you know i've i've found this
1:06:01quite common in
1:06:03in survivors the baileys talked about
1:06:04this when they got picked up is like oh
1:06:06my god you know
1:06:07here it is we're saved but on the other
1:06:10hand we feel like we're
1:06:12kings of our world we've created this
1:06:14whole new
1:06:16um uh very precious kind of relationship
1:06:19with the world and getting plucked out
1:06:21of that
1:06:22in dealing with post trauma then which
1:06:24is his own sort of survival experience
1:06:27uh is it it can be a difficult thing and
1:06:29i i
1:06:30even when it happened to me i
1:06:33i realized that there were there were
1:06:36elements of this voyage
1:06:37things that i got out of it i could
1:06:39never have gotten in any other way there
1:06:42were things that i saw that were so
1:06:44incredible and i could never have seen
1:06:46if i wasn't in that situation i think to
1:06:48a certain degree that's why a lot of us
1:06:50do offshore sailing um a friend of mine
1:06:53once remarked you know and
1:06:54after this uh uh single-handed race to
1:06:56bermuda
1:06:57he goes i just called the office and
1:06:59people out there were
1:07:01asking me if i'd had fun he says they
1:07:03don't understand we don't do this for
1:07:05fun
1:07:06uh it's kind of there's a difference
1:07:07between fun and fulfillment
1:07:09and i think some of the most fulfilling
1:07:11uh
1:07:12parts of our lives are things that are
1:07:14they're difficult the first man
1:07:16first american to sail around the the
1:07:18world single-handed non-stop was a guy
1:07:21named dodge morgan and
1:07:22people would ask him like hillary why
1:07:23would you climb everest and they would
1:07:25ask him
1:07:26why on earth would you want to do this
1:07:28and he said because it's different and
1:07:29difficult
1:07:31and um that's kind of what i my attitude
1:07:34is
1:07:34um i recognize that these things are
1:07:38are difficult and can kill you
1:07:41um but you know i've been in hospital i
1:07:43had leukemia for example
1:07:44and i just was so deeply touched by
1:07:48people's compassion
1:07:49um that i could not have seen
1:07:53outside of that circumstance so um
1:07:57you know i i you know we don't look to
1:07:59go through these things but
1:08:01um there's no reason not to tackle
1:08:03things that are different and difficult
1:08:05and um i'm sure so i i would probably
1:08:08sit there and smile and say
1:08:10oh you're going to learn a lot but i
1:08:12don't know
1:08:13i'd warn them so you don't want to ruin
1:08:15the surprise for
1:08:16a younger steve callahan basically let
1:08:18him enjoy the ride
1:08:20um after although i have to say you know
1:08:22i'm lucky enough that i got
1:08:24through it so um but i'm just very
1:08:26grateful i'm grateful to the ocean i'm
1:08:28grateful to
1:08:29to all the people who went before me who
1:08:32um
1:08:33uh who who including those who never
1:08:36made it back who inspired people to
1:08:38create
1:08:38you know equipment and keep doing that
1:08:41and so on so i'm just a pretty grateful
1:08:44guy i've got one last question for you
1:08:46and this is
1:08:46uh when you survive something like you
1:08:50did
1:08:51or even when you're dealing with uh
1:08:54feeling sick or something like that but
1:08:56especially being adrift for 76 days
1:08:59and you made it do you reflect on that
1:09:01with a whole new appreciation of life to
1:09:03this day
1:09:04or is that something that well it
1:09:07happens
1:09:08i'm moving on it's
1:09:11it's hard to separate these big
1:09:13experiences of our life from the rest of
1:09:15our life
1:09:16uh certainly this experience totally
1:09:18shaped
1:09:19everything i did afterwards you know and
1:09:22in
1:09:22relationships and opportunities
1:09:25uh meeting incredible people all that
1:09:27kind of stuff um
1:09:30so um
1:09:33there was immediately i mean there there
1:09:35are different stages of that as well
1:09:36this is this sort of post-trauma thing
1:09:38you know immediately i was like
1:09:40oh my god you know i went through that
1:09:42you know i i can survive anything
1:09:44there's a part of that
1:09:46um which i recognized at certain times
1:09:48could have been actually a little risky
1:09:50that uh you know maybe i was taking
1:09:52chances that because i was so
1:09:55i don't know self-confident or something
1:09:57or whether i shouldn't been doing that
1:09:59um there was a part of me that was kind
1:10:00of amused by people who would you know
1:10:02when i got
1:10:03home and stuff and people go oh you have
1:10:05to excuse the condition of my apartment
1:10:07i'm like
1:10:08what it's not it's not leaking anywhere
1:10:10is it you know i
1:10:12you know to me it was just kind of what
1:10:14people's normal
1:10:16priorities were uh were so different
1:10:19from mine you know as long as i had
1:10:21uh you know a little bit to drink and
1:10:23eat and it was like hey
1:10:25this is fine um but over time you know
1:10:29things fade too
1:10:30um i can grouse as well as the best of
1:10:33them
1:10:34uh about things and sometimes i have to
1:10:37remind myself that uh you know
1:10:41i get into a shower and more water goes
1:10:42down to the down the drain than i
1:10:44probably drank in
1:10:45two months or something you know it's
1:10:46it's um
1:10:48so there both things exist um but
1:10:51um there is always that reminder in the
1:10:54back of my head i'm sure
1:10:55that you know your major experiences
1:10:58with sharks or whatever they don't go
1:11:00away
1:11:00you incorporate them into your life and
1:11:02uh and certainly
1:11:04this experience was incorporated into
1:11:07mine in so many ways i can't even begin
1:11:09to
1:11:10count them is it laughable for you when
1:11:12you hear people complain about having to
1:11:14spend
1:11:1570 days in their apartment getting food
1:11:18delivered and watching
1:11:19uh netflix and how they're complaining
1:11:21about
1:11:23do you look at that and say really
1:11:26um to some degree there is a part of me
1:11:29that gets
1:11:30that can kind of be short with people
1:11:33about it
1:11:34um it's like you know get a grip how
1:11:37spoiled have we gotten
1:11:38as a culture where there you know you
1:11:41have to
1:11:42sacrifice to help the culture overall
1:11:45by staying in your apartment for a while
1:11:49or whatever but
1:11:51on the other hand i also recognize that
1:11:53um
1:11:55this is probably way more difficult for
1:11:57most people
1:11:58uh than it than it is for me um
1:12:01i am used to being in isolated
1:12:03environments for extended periods of
1:12:05time with very few or
1:12:07people or just by myself i spent through
1:12:10leukemia already
1:12:11just you know eight eight years ago
1:12:14spent
1:12:14a year in almost total isolation
1:12:18uh and if i did go out i had to have
1:12:21masking gloves
1:12:22um i even my own germs are a threat to
1:12:25me at a certain point you know things
1:12:26like that
1:12:27so i've had training to a certain degree
1:12:30and
1:12:30and i think that for a lot of people who
1:12:33have not
1:12:34suffered um through these kinds of
1:12:37experiences
1:12:38um it is more stressful for them than
1:12:40than than it is for me
1:12:42um you know i again i i
1:12:46one person's one person's day in the
1:12:49park
1:12:50is another person's survival experience
1:12:52so it's very difficult to
1:12:54uh to to judge people overall but
1:12:57i think that we have we all as a culture
1:13:00have the opportunity here to gain from
1:13:03this experience you know i have a friend
1:13:05in new york who has a small apartment
1:13:07there and he's
1:13:07got i love this i you know i have the
1:13:11you know i'm i'm gaining chairs and
1:13:13learning to play the harp and do all
1:13:15these things i never
1:13:17you know had a chance to do so to speak
1:13:19and um
1:13:20but it requires us to to get our heads
1:13:23into a different time
1:13:24uh a a different space i frankly i feel
1:13:28like
1:13:28through this whole coronavirus thing uh
1:13:32is a culture nationally we have not
1:13:35handled it very well that we've been
1:13:37kind of in
1:13:38denial for way too long and in my view
1:13:41denial is the number one enemy of the
1:13:44survivor
1:13:45it's better to just face up to it as we
1:13:48used to say when i was a kid take your
1:13:49medicine early
1:13:51um and and get on with it um
1:13:55but you have to recognize in in every
1:13:57from my
1:13:58you know from my experience if you want
1:14:00to deal with a problem
1:14:02look exactly at what that problem is
1:14:04don't pretend it doesn't exist but
1:14:05instead
1:14:06really analyze it you know the only way
1:14:07to figure out you know the
1:14:09the patch to the raft is to really
1:14:11figure out
1:14:12what it is you have to deal with you
1:14:14know what are the materials you have
1:14:16that could possibly deal with that
1:14:17i'll use a specific example which i
1:14:19think is is great um
1:14:21there was a there was a uh
1:14:24a bunch of people go flying out to the
1:14:26bahamas and the plane crashed on the way
1:14:28out there and they went drifting off
1:14:30with
1:14:30just what they had in their pockets
1:14:32basically
1:14:34and a couple of the guys said well whoa
1:14:36i've got my wallet and they
1:14:37pulled them out in the moonlight and ah
1:14:39here's a credit card
1:14:41you know and they're looking at the
1:14:42moonlight and realizing it
1:14:44it reflects light um and
1:14:47and that's a key element of survivors
1:14:49you stop thinking about
1:14:50what was this thing designed to do what
1:14:52can it do
1:14:54and constantly adapting things and so
1:14:56the next day they were successful at
1:14:59signaling and overpassing
1:15:00flight with their credit card so you
1:15:03know
1:15:03i we all have to look at life a little
1:15:06bit differently we have to realize that
1:15:08we are actually are in a collective
1:15:09survival situation and it requires
1:15:11adaptation but we're in that
1:15:13we're still in that stage of where a lot
1:15:16of people are in denial
1:15:17uh of course a lot of people are younger
1:15:20where of course
1:15:21just like i did when i set off on
1:15:22napoleon solo think that we're kind of
1:15:24in
1:15:25invulnerable uh but we are vulnerable
1:15:28and
1:15:28but don't fear the experience
1:15:32exactly because it does open up
1:15:34opportunities you know there's
1:15:35many famous sayings but one of them is
1:15:38you know
1:15:39problems or opportunities in disguise
1:15:41and uh
1:15:42so we have to kind of like pull the
1:15:44disguise off and see what the
1:15:45opportunities are there for us and
1:15:47um and and i hope the best for everybody
1:15:50but i
1:15:50i do think that for me i'm
1:15:53i'm old now first of all so life doesn't
1:15:56owe me very much i've had more
1:15:58more lives that than than cats do so
1:16:01um i i just wish everybody well but i do
1:16:05i do hope that that people can adapt
1:16:08well steven we uh do a little thing on
1:16:10the show called an after action report
1:16:12and it's basically
1:16:13summarizes our discussion that we've had
1:16:15and
1:16:16adapt or die stay in the fight
1:16:20never quit stephen i can't thank you
1:16:22enough
1:16:23for uh spending the time uh just an
1:16:26amazing life
1:16:27uh several lives and you're still here
1:16:30and uh we really appreciate you taking
1:16:31the time
1:16:32being on the show stephen callahan thank
1:16:34you
1:16:35very much sir thank you
1:16:39and good luck thanks you too on to the
1:16:41next one
1:16:42hey folks the best way to support our
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1:16:59just leave it in the comments
1:17:01so you can be a survivor not a statistic
1:17:07can you survive this podcast is a
1:17:08cavalry audio production
1:17:10recorded live from the bunker in denver
1:17:13colorado
1:17:14hosted by me kate courtly produced by
1:17:17brandon morgan and kate courtly
1:17:19associate producer is jeff apple
1:17:21executive produced
1:17:23by keegan rosenberger and dana burnett
1:17:32service commitment and integrity are the
1:17:35traits embodied by our nation's
1:17:37defenders
1:17:37veterans and first responders and they
1:17:40are also the core values upon which
1:17:42the gary sinise foundation is built the
1:17:44gary sinise foundation
1:17:46serves and honors our nation's defenders
1:17:48veterans
1:17:49first responders their families and
1:17:51those in need
1:17:53whether the gary sinise foundation is
1:17:54providing specially adapted smart homes
1:17:57to severely wounded heroes supporting
1:18:00gold star families
1:18:01or providing essential equipment
1:18:03training and ppe to first responders
1:18:06in all of the foundations programs they
1:18:09honor those
1:18:10who so bravely defend our freedoms every
1:18:13day
1:18:14support our heroes today at
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