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Can UK Construction Fix the Housing Crisis? | Michelle Hannah & Danny Garwood of CAST Ep 47 — Transcript

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0:00We consciously daily work hard on making
0:03sure we're thinking about our people and
0:04our clients. It's never something we
0:06take for granted as a business. It seems
0:09like we don't just have one problem. We
0:10have lots of problems. How do we solve
0:12the planning issue, all the regulation
0:14changes? There's so many things that get
0:16thrown that impact the viability of
0:18project. That's the challenge that we
0:20have in the UK.
0:21>> Arguably MMC in some way or another 100%
0:24has to be the way forward because we
0:26can't continue to build everything in a
0:27completely traditional way. 15 20 years
0:29ago people were using scale rules and
0:31then you sort of went on to blue beam
0:32digitizers now we use creo which is
0:35phenomenal in terms of the efficiencies
0:36how we can measure buildings it's going
0:37to be another evolution of what we've
0:39seen in the past
0:40>> some of the larger consultancies are now
0:42trying to spend a lot of money on AI
0:43>> it's really challenging [music] I can't
0:45see an environment where it can come in
0:47it can just do our jobs for us and get
0:49it right
0:50>> not yet
0:53today I was joined by Michelle Hannah
0:56and Danny Garwood of Cast CA cast are a
0:59PM and cost consultancy set up around
1:03exactly 10 years ago. They are or were
1:06very focused in the residential sector,
1:08still are, but have adapted as a
1:10business and changed. This is really
1:12good. It's the second one I've had where
1:13I've had two people on together. Um
1:15really good dynamic. You could tell they
1:17got on really well together. And we
1:19talked a lot around some of the original
1:21um starting ethoses about cast such as
1:24MMC and how that has developed and how
1:26the story of that has developed and just
1:28generally where the industry is going.
1:30Really informative one this one um about
1:33a business that has evolved and has
1:35changed and adapted as the business has
1:38grown. I think you'll get a lot from it.
1:41Well, welcome to the next episode of
1:43Growing Consultancies. Delighted today
1:45to be joined by Michelle Hannah and
1:47Danny Garwood of Cast. Welcome.
1:50>> Thank you very much for having us.
1:51>> Yeah, thank you very much.
1:52>> Really great to be here.
1:53>> Absolute pleasure. I know we've been
1:54discussing this a while and for one
1:55reason or another, this is uh we are
1:57here now which is brilliant. It's really
1:58good and um really handy for you guys
2:00just literally around the corner.
2:01>> Literally a stone throw away.
2:03>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a great great walk
2:05down. So
2:07>> very quick walk down.
2:07>> Very quick walk down. Yeah. So thank
2:09you.
2:10>> Yeah. No, absolute pleasure. Good. Um
2:12okay. Okay. So for anybody who doesn't
2:13know CAST, can you give us I guess an
2:16overview of the business, headcount,
2:18current turnover, core sectors. I'd be
2:21amazed if we don't know the c the main
2:22sector of CASP, but
2:24>> yeah, go for it.
2:25>> So the business was set up in 2016.
2:30Um we are predominantly a project
2:32management and cost management business.
2:35We started the business working in
2:36residential, doing other sector work
2:39over the last 24 months or so. Um, we're
2:43probably around about 90 people now,
2:46pretty much split 50/50 between the cost
2:48management and project management teams.
2:51We started with around 12 to 15 people
2:54in year one. So, we've had quite a bit
2:56of growth over that time. Um we work
2:59with a range of clients um and tenurs
3:02within residential and as I said other
3:04sectors um from institutional investors
3:06to private developers, housing
3:08associations, local authorities. So
3:10quite a mixed um field really in terms
3:13of the people that we work with. Um
3:16yeah, so Danny and I have been there
3:18since year one. So I have seen the
3:20business.
3:21>> Yeah, I spo that. I was doing my
3:22research. I spoiled you both. So, so I
3:24guess Michelle, you followed the guys
3:26from EC Harris at the time. Did
3:28>> you jump from a contractor to
3:30>> Yeah. Well, I was I was the first person
3:32to join the business who wasn't from EC
3:34Harris or Arcada. So,
3:36>> yeah, I joined the business in February
3:382016, so a month after we started. Um,
3:42>> we was in a building just like this uh
3:45around the corner in Kirby Street. So um
3:47I remember turning up well actually on
3:49my interview in the bleeding heart with
3:51[laughter]
3:51>> with with Mark and Joe um they outlined
3:55their vision for the business. Um and
3:56for me where I was at Regal Homes which
3:58is now a Rada Home. So I was there for 3
4:02years.
4:03>> I um jumped at the chance to to join a
4:05consultancy. Uh turned up on day one in
4:08the basement office um with Frank Laru
4:11who you had on this podcast which was
4:13great. Frank was really good for me in
4:15my first sort of five or six years at
4:16cast and um yeah it took her from there
4:19really and we we've grown the business
4:20from what 13 14 people to to where we
4:24are today to to be a 90 person business
4:26so
4:26>> and with the plan to continue to grow
4:28which is really
4:30>> yeah really exciting.
4:30>> Yeah. And I um yeah I left EC Harris or
4:33Arcadus at the time
4:35>> [snorts]
4:35>> um and followed um Mark Joe um Neil and
4:40Keith
4:41>> um to cast um really interesting move in
4:45that I didn't even think twice about it.
4:47I think a lot of people have said to me
4:49since did you not stop for a moment and
4:51go it's a startup and I went I didn't
4:54actually which is really surprising. I'm
4:57normally quite a pragmatic person and
4:59really think through decisions,
5:00>> right?
5:01>> But I subconsciously took a leap of
5:04faith um and really glad I did. It
5:07>> panned out well.
5:08>> Yeah. Good. It's interesting as is the
5:11whole dynamic has changed I think in the
5:13last decade that because probably was
5:16probably if they had done that five
5:17years earlier it would have been a lot
5:18more difficult challenge now where I do
5:21think a lot more clients your clients
5:23generally are accepting of well at the
5:25end of the day if you got the right
5:26capability and it doesn't matter whether
5:28it's a large or small business we're
5:29dealing with whereas historically I
5:30think some of the larger consultancies
5:33>> um used to really retain the clients
5:36because there was there was a perceived
5:37risk factor.
5:38>> Yeah. And I think that's I do think
5:40that's changed a lot.
5:41>> Yeah. I mean, when we set the business
5:43up, you know, we were in a very
5:45fortunate position that those um those
5:49people owning the business on day one
5:51had really strong relationships with
5:53some of the clients that they'd worked
5:54with for a long time who followed us.
5:56You know, there was grown-up
5:57conversations at the time with our
5:59previous employer and those clients came
6:01with us. Um,
6:02>> and it makes you realize how much this
6:04is a people business and industry. is
6:07all built on relationships and they're
6:09really strong and important and you know
6:11for a client to follow a startup
6:14>> says a lot
6:15>> 100%.
6:16>> Yeah.
6:16>> And one of the one of the good things is
6:18in that first year our 10 biggest
6:20clients we're still probably working
6:21with seven of those now. So
6:24>> um we've done really well to retain
6:25those relationships um throughout the
6:27last 10 years. So yeah I mean they're
6:29really important you know we think about
6:31it and our people and our clients are
6:32the two biggest important things. I
6:35mean, those are what makes a consultancy
6:36successful. You can't do anything
6:39without either of those.
6:40>> Yeah.
6:41>> It's amazing how much how many
6:42[laughter] some consultancies seem to
6:44lose lose a thread on both of those
6:45points. But, but you're absolutely
6:46right. They are the two most important
6:48things.
6:48>> Yeah. We do a lot of work and strategy
6:51around how we, you know, retain our
6:52clients, but also, you know, retain our
6:54people and, you know, give them the best
6:56service cuz,
6:57>> you know, we're quite a senior business.
6:59We've got a good cohort of younger
7:01people in the business, but obviously
7:03the the sales pitch we give to our
7:05clients is that senior le direction
7:07which
7:07>> they really value. So that's really
7:09important for us.
7:09>> Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's something that
7:12we do. I mean we consciously daily work
7:15hard on making sure we're thinking about
7:17our people and our clients. It's never
7:19something we take for granted as a
7:21business.
7:22>> Um you know you can have success and
7:24then kind of let those things go. Um but
7:27we're constantly working out well how do
7:28we do it better
7:30>> because we can't have got it absolutely
7:31perfect. So what do we do next? And you
7:34know we think about our retention
7:35strategy um around our people and you
7:38know people do leave
7:41>> particularly after
7:41>> co
7:42>> yeah co was
7:43>> you know it it was the catalyst of
7:45changing a lot of people's views in
7:47terms of how their work and home life
7:49>> absolutely
7:49>> and balanced together and people made
7:52decisions to go off and do different
7:53things work in the industry still but
7:56>> do it in a different place and you know
7:58we we you wrestle with that as an owner
8:01of a business in terms of how do keep
8:03people really feeling motivated and
8:06rewarding and wanting to stay. So, we
8:07constantly think about it.
8:09>> Yeah. And there's a balance with it,
8:10isn't there? Because I think um
8:13>> too much churn is clearly not a good
8:15thing, but equally no churn is actually
8:17also not a good thing because people do
8:19evolve and change and
8:21>> no
8:23ill reflection on either the business or
8:24the individual. It's just that people
8:27>> evolve and become a different person and
8:28want to do different things. I think
8:29we're we were like an ambitious company
8:32and when I joined the business you could
8:34just tell it was a step up. You know,
8:35it's a bit like when people go, you
8:37know, been training with me, you know,
8:39football team and then you go and watch
8:41go train with England and all of a
8:42sudden it's like, oh, this is a, you
8:43know, a big step up. And I felt that
8:46when I got to the business and obviously
8:47that drives, um, you know, people to
8:49want to
8:49>> want to really achieve and develop and
8:51do really well. And obviously what comes
8:53with that is
8:54>> opportunities for those individuals to
8:56um, open a door to go and work with
8:58clients, you know, um, take other
8:59avenues they want to explore or even
9:01start their own businesses. So um yeah
9:03that's the challenges we have with being
9:05an ambitious business.
9:07>> Yeah.
9:07>> Good. So it's fair to say and I would
9:11say a lot of businesses have gone
9:12through this in various capacities but
9:14you you've had somewhat of an evolution
9:16as a business certainly for anybody I
9:18guess who knows the London the London
9:21cost and PM market. You know they would
9:23have very much identified and rightly so
9:25to begin with cast with the residential
9:29sector.
9:29>> Yeah. Um and also probably you know you
9:32were probably one of the I guess leaders
9:34in the champion around MMC. Um and and I
9:38guess both of those have gone through a
9:40real period of change haven't they? I
9:41think um some challenges frankly I think
9:44um across both of those. So I guess some
9:47people might be interested to understand
9:48how the business has evolved how you've
9:50adapted around around those two areas.
9:53If I if I focus first on the MMC point
9:58because it's a it is a really
10:00interesting one because in year one we
10:01were talking about it as a business and
10:03obviously um Mark Farmer um did his
10:06review on behalf of government which
10:07talked heavily around integrating
10:10>> modern methods of construction into the
10:12delivery process. Um and CAST became
10:15known as an MMC consultancy for one of a
10:19better term. I think the challenge we
10:22found was because the industry didn't
10:26quite understand what MMC was in the
10:29rounds, we got a little bit associated
10:31with being a consultancy that worked on
10:33volutric modular buildings only,
10:36>> which when you look back at it going,
10:38god, I think we maybe had four or five
10:40projects out of like 30 or 40 projects.
10:43You're going, well, most of the work we
10:44do is quite traditional. It's not
10:46necessarily volutric. So we went on our
10:50own journey of trying to
10:52explain or educate or help the industry
10:55understand what modern methods was and
10:58the fact that it isn't just about
10:59volumetrics is just about thinking about
11:01how we build and take a different
11:03approach to delivery which could be
11:05anything from bathroom pods
11:07>> to a pre-cast facade and frame system.
11:09Um and that journey took a bit of time
11:12to get to a place now where actually I
11:14wouldn't say people associate us with
11:16volumetric today only. They associate us
11:19I'd like to think with trying to bring
11:22different approaches to how we build in
11:24our conversations with contractors and
11:26clients and consultants. So, we've kind
11:28of won an evolution around that to help
11:32change the way the industry sees MMC
11:36to align to how we see it, which is
11:38about just building differently. Just
11:40don't apply the same to every project
11:43every time and expect different results
11:45if it didn't work out the first time.
11:47>> Yeah.
11:47>> And and and let's just stop on there a
11:50second because
11:51>> the reality is the industry has massive
11:53productivity issues. We've got, you
11:55know, quarter of the
11:57>> a quarter of the workforce are going to
11:58retire in the next 5 or 10 years.
12:01>> Probably argue with this, some people
12:02might shoot me for this, but probably
12:03argue with that the the higher talent
12:05within the trades market is going to go
12:06because there's maybe a lack of training
12:08and development.
12:08>> Yeah.
12:09>> Within at the moment and
12:11>> I'm not going to get on my soap box
12:12about what the government's doing on
12:13that. We'll move we'll move on from
12:15that.
12:16>> [laughter]
12:16>> Um but arguably MMC in some way or
12:20another 100% has to be the way forward
12:23because we can't continue to build
12:24everything in a completely traditional
12:26way. I I think Mark's report in the
12:29first year was not about MMC. It was
12:32about how to overcome the skills crisis
12:34and that's what the you know that was
12:36the report he he got asked to write and
12:38the recommendations was around that was
12:40how do we
12:41>> overcome this issue and one of the
12:42recommendations was we need to use more
12:44MMC to increase productivity because
12:47>> you know
12:48>> at the moment we sit here today and like
12:50you say we've got challenges in the
12:51economic outlook and in the industry um
12:54we've got loads of trades people leaving
12:56the [clears throat] industry we haven't
12:58got those coming in and I'm just
12:59thinking in about 12 18 months time
13:02we've got another problem on the horizon
13:04is where are all these people going to
13:05come from to to build what we need to
13:07build
13:07>> and that's why we all sit there and you
13:09know I was at UK reef last year and the
13:11government's standing up we're going to
13:13build our 300,000 homes a year and we're
13:15all sitting there the whole industry is
13:16thinking how are we going to do this
13:18>> even now you know Qs are like unicorns
13:21you know [laughter]
13:23>> you probably know that and
13:24[clears throat] we're in a market that's
13:25you know not not
13:26>> the trades probably even bigger issue
13:27isn't it you know you know skilled
13:29trades who can do it Um and and then
13:32reforming planning which is still I
13:35think this government's made some
13:36improvements on that but it's still a
13:37bloody mess.
13:38>> Yeah.
13:38>> Everything takes too long doesn't it in
13:40the UK.
13:40>> It does. I I think that's I mean that's
13:43the challenge that we have in the UK
13:45particularly in residential is it seems
13:48like we don't just have one problem we
13:50have lots of problems and it's like how
13:52how do we solve the planning issue all
13:54the regulation changes that there's so
13:56many things that get thrown that impact
13:58the viability of project which means
14:00really challenging to deliver and you
14:03know you know having you know heard
14:05conversations from our colleagues that
14:06went to UK reef we unfortunately we
14:08didn't go up this year and but been
14:10there last year it was kind the same
14:11thing. There's money out there.
14:12>> Yes,
14:13>> there's lots of investors out there
14:15willing to spend money,
14:16>> but can they get a scheme back up?
14:18>> Yeah.
14:19>> And if they can't, you know, we can't
14:20expect people to be investing and not
14:23get return out of it. So,
14:25>> I think there's just so much to go at in
14:27terms of trying to create solutions to
14:30all those areas that are causing
14:31viability challenges. And I think over
14:33the last 24 months, we've been really
14:35successful in the residential sector
14:38specifically of how to unblock those
14:40viability challenges. So, you know, us
14:42being those sector experts and
14:43understanding the products, whether it's
14:44BTR, PBSA, we've had some real successes
14:47with some clients where actually where
14:49some people just turning off the taps,
14:50we've managed to unlock projects and
14:52actually get them to site, which, you
14:54know, has been, you know, challenging in
14:56the round, but we've managed to sort of
14:58have some success stories over the last
14:5912 24 months, and we've got a lot of
15:01projects in procurement at the moment,
15:02especially in resi, which is which is
15:04really positive. I I would say that you
15:05know you know on our cost management
15:07side and on our project management side
15:09our um sector lead to effectively really
15:12understand the product Natania say for
15:14PBSA or for build to rent um you know
15:17you go their cost managers project
15:19manager they understand the design
15:21elements of it really you know we set
15:24them the challenge go and really
15:26understand that part of the market
15:29really get into the detail of it so they
15:31can help drive the decisions that need
15:32to be made on projects to get viable
15:34schemes that we can actually build.
15:37>> Good. Good. Um, yeah, I think everyone
15:40thought 2026 should be the year for
15:42residential to see the rebound.
15:44>> Obviously, a lot of the frustrations
15:45were around BSA and everything stuck at
15:48Gateway 2. That seems to be moving now
15:51slowly slowly. Yeah.
15:52>> But you've still got to have the
15:53investors willing to say, you know, this
15:55stacks up financially to to to make a
15:58gateway free earlier today, didn't we?
16:02They're definitely like unicorns.
16:03[laughter]
16:04Yeah, it is. It's, you know, and I you
16:07think back to last year and the year
16:09before and when all of this came out and
16:12people just wrestling with trying to
16:14understand it and one of um
16:16>> one of our owners um sits on the board,
16:19Lady Galliff, and you know, she just
16:21made it her mission to absolutely get
16:22under the skin of what it was. I think
16:24she actually read the act.
16:26>> Amazing. [laughter] My goodness. I don't
16:28know many people actually read that but
16:30you know she she just saw it as an
16:32opportunity to really change how the as
16:34the industry works how we do things
16:36>> um because
16:38>> we can look at the negatives out of it.
16:39It has added cost. It's had a cost from
16:43um financial perspective but from a
16:44program perspective
16:46>> um but we can look at where can the
16:48positives we take out of this and
16:49actually it could change the way we
16:51build for the better.
16:52>> Right. Okay. It could ultimately there
16:54is more um control early on in terms of
16:58getting the desired rhyme before we get
16:59onto site. So we could end up with far
17:02better products.
17:02>> Yeah.
17:03>> But it's you know it's taken us time to
17:05really understand what the building
17:06safety regulator wants.
17:09>> Yeah. To be able to submit the right
17:10level of information and that is getting
17:12better.
17:13>> Yeah. I'm I'm I'm hopeful that the
17:15positives once we get over this hurdle
17:17and now the BSR, you know, get got their
17:19act together
17:20>> should outweigh the the last few years.
17:22I think, you know, projects
17:24>> historically when you just get on and go
17:27go go, you know, you call it build and
17:29design rather than design and build.
17:31>> So now now we're in a you know, we're in
17:33a a situation where actually you can't
17:35literally build anything until you've
17:37designed it to a point. Therefore,
17:39>> project should run smoother on site.
17:41Touch
17:41>> wood. like you say makes sense and hope
17:43hopefully less disputes and less
17:45>> yeah and and that you know as um project
17:48managers we also employ as agent we
17:50manage JCT design and build contracts
17:53and the amount of buildings that we
17:55haven't been able to take practical
17:56completion for because of paperwork
17:59>> is insane
18:00>> you know that shouldn't be a thing we
18:02should have better processes in place
18:04and um you know the golden thread of
18:06information will help that and that will
18:09just be a requirement you've got to do
18:10it
18:11>> so you And we will have buildings with
18:13better information behind them that
18:15allows operators to run them more
18:16efficiently and effectively.
18:18>> Good.
18:19>> Yeah. Okay. Good. That's
18:20>> if it goes the plan.
18:20>> Good. Good to hear. There's a silver
18:22lining with all that. That's good. Um
18:24because you know to [clears throat] your
18:26point you Yeah. The government stated
18:28300,000. It's fascinating that 300,000
18:30that's existed. Every government says
18:32the same. But
18:33>> but unless we unlock this and make
18:35things happen um
18:36>> and you know projects become viable then
18:39we're not we're ultimately not going to
18:42>> fix the issue for the ultimate end users
18:44people who need homes
18:45>> and then you know that's the ultimate
18:47reason why cast was set up to be
18:48residential focused to
18:50>> to help you know the solutions of the
18:52you know the housing crisis um which
18:54>> you know 10 years on
18:56>> we've definitely helped but not not
18:58resolved it. No, definitely. I mean,
19:00there's a long way to go and you know,
19:04>> I'd sit here and sit here and go 10
19:06years into the business and every year
19:07there's a new problem in the ind that
19:09the industry faces. You know, I remember
19:11in year one it was Brexit [gasps]
19:14>> and it was Ukraine war and there there's
19:15always something we're going to face,
19:17you know, we have so many events that
19:20are going to impact our industry just by
19:22how we're connected to the rest of the
19:24global
19:25>> environment. So, it's just know we're
19:27just going to have to keep facing those.
19:29But, um, you know, I'm positive. You
19:32know, I see a lot of a lot of difference
19:35in the way clients look at projects and
19:38wanting to really deliver a credible
19:42good quality home at the end of it,
19:44which gives me confidence. We want to do
19:46things the right way.
19:46>> Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good. It was late.
19:49>> So that probably a good segue there cuz
19:51obviously the other part we were talking
19:52about is that yes, initially
19:54>> purely residential focus. Um but you've
19:57transitioned
19:58>> and I would guess maybe a lot of people
20:00in the industry are not aware that that
20:02you probably transitioned into uh a
20:04wider sector focus.
20:05>> Yeah.
20:06>> So can you just maybe talk through what
20:07that you know why that decision happened
20:09and you know what focus now?
20:11>> I think from the beginning we've always
20:13just organically grown with our clients
20:15although we've been residential focused.
20:17um whether the projects in Edinburgh
20:20leads you know Northern Ireland we just
20:21follow our clients we don't set up
20:23offices there which obviously
20:24>> we we're probably looking at that in a
20:26bit more detail in part of this new
20:28strategy okay
20:29>> but you know if a client who we get on
20:31really well with had a good relationship
20:32historically we'll go got this
20:34commercial office building are you
20:35interested you know we would probably
20:36say yes and we in the past we've
20:38delivered um commercial office buildings
20:41um one being the landmark building in
20:44Reading which is part of the wider
20:46master plan down there we worked on with
20:48Lincoln.
20:48>> Um that was a real success um station
20:51hill
20:51>> and then from that we we've decided
20:53actually it's probably an area that we
20:55can feel we can add value to our clients
20:56and and explore that. So
20:58>> uh we've got a sector lead who's come in
21:00that we've just hired recently. Um so
21:02he's got a bit between his teeth to help
21:04grow that that sector. We've got a
21:05number of opportunities coming through
21:07now in the pipeline. Um the other one
21:10we've looked at as well is hotels. Again
21:12>> worked on sector at the moment is a
21:14strong sector. Yeah. We've worked on
21:15hotels previously.
21:17>> Um but now we've got a real drive to
21:19push in push into that and um Nil who's
21:22joined the business has been great. Um
21:24we've got again some fantastic
21:26opportunities that we can't really speak
21:28about but if they come off you know it's
21:29going to be a real game changer for us
21:30in that in that hotel sector.
21:32>> Good.
21:33>> I should have asked earlier what's the
21:35split now between cost and PM roughly
21:37>> about 5050. It's roughly sorry you may
21:40have
21:40>> we have in addition to the cost and
21:42piano we have a small advisory team who
21:44do kind of different strands of work
21:47some work in terms of policy work
21:48lobbying government um or they do work
21:51around helping businesses particularly
21:53around manufacturing work out the best
21:55strategy in terms of how they optimize
21:57their processes
21:58>> yeah BSA as well
21:59>> yeah and we do a lot of technical due
22:02diligence work um for investors looking
22:04to forward fund developments which is
22:06kind of like a a quasi PM um fund
22:10monitoring type role. Um but all of that
22:12is really kind of serves from our
22:14project management and cost.
22:15>> Yeah, I think we're about what 42 43 on
22:18each side with the advisory team we've
22:20got and then support staff alongside
22:21that.
22:22>> Yeah.
22:22>> Yeah. Brilliant. Good. Okay. Um so you
22:25alluded to there's a I think I said this
22:27off air, but you said there's a you've
22:28got a three-year plan.
22:30>> Yes. Um,
22:32can you tell tell me what that is
22:34within, you know, without without
22:35[laughter] doing anything that's too um
22:37too confidential?
22:39>> Obviously. Um, I won't go into the finer
22:41details of it, but obviously there is a
22:43common theme throughout it. Um, I mean,
22:45I think every social media post you see
22:47at the moment talks about AI.
22:49>> Yeah.
22:49>> And how do we actually integrate that
22:51into our business? And to be fair, it
22:53might be part of our three-year plan,
22:54but we've been actively looking at it
22:57for the last few years. Um, and you
23:00know, you start by dabbling with it and
23:02then you work out, well, how do we
23:05actually use this to make us more
23:06efficient?
23:08>> Um, I I mean, I use some form of what
23:12would you call it? Some form of AI agent
23:14every day.
23:15>> But I am a big believer that it should
23:19be there to do the bits of the task
23:22where we don't add value. Mhm.
23:24>> It is not there to do the bit we add
23:26value because ultimately we you know
23:28we're the experts we are the ones that
23:30bring the insight. So
23:32>> um we started to look a lot of that
23:33around how we grow our integration of AI
23:36into our business to help us to
23:39>> perhaps yeah you know I can look at a
23:42table of data or a graph of information
23:44and I can understand what that's telling
23:46me and the insight it's generating but I
23:49don't add value putting that data into
23:51the graph.
23:52>> No. Yeah.
23:52>> Yeah.
23:53>> Me telling the graph what it needs to be
23:55is me adding value. But me doing that
23:56bit of the work, if I can get someone
23:58else do it, why not look at that? I can
24:01spend more time going, what does this
24:02actually mean?
24:03>> Um, and it's the bit that, you know, I'm
24:05sure every business is wrestling with
24:07like how do you train people to use it
24:10in the right way and not just get it to
24:12try to do your job because it can't do
24:14your job. you know
24:16>> um so that's you know that you know the
24:17use of AI is a a big part of you know
24:20how we use that correctly within our
24:22business that you know we've been
24:24>> working through for the last couple of
24:25years and will continue to do over the
24:27course of the next three years although
24:29in that space every six months something
24:31changes anyway so you can't keep up with
24:33it
24:33>> yeah it's it's interesting because you
24:36see the bigger consulties who've got a
24:38lot bigger budgets than us you know
24:40>> invested heavily in big digital AI teams
24:43and you just think how can that pay off
24:46when the technology is advancing so
24:48quickly how do they implement these
24:50strategies within the business and by
24:51the time they've implemented strategy
24:53the technology's already moved on so
24:55yeah we have we have been hearing that
24:56some of the the the bigger teams in
24:58these big consultancies are you know
24:59slimming down quite quite a bit because
25:02you know
25:02>> you got Microsoft they're just you know
25:04running the show at the moment you with
25:05all their their platform plus all the
25:07the supplementary softwares that you
25:09know the industry's got so yeah there's
25:11a good good framework there to work in
25:13>> and it's a fair challenge Is that Danny?
25:14Isn't it because um
25:16I don't know if I think I think you know
25:19>> CAST were one of those organizations
25:21that really went heavy on digital to
25:22begin with and made a point about you
25:24know being more forward thinking at the
25:26time when you first set up the business.
25:28I I recall
25:29>> um but you're absolutely right now the
25:32advent of AI is maybe changing the
25:34dynamics. You know some things that you
25:35wouldn't need a team to do maybe AI can
25:38do it now.
25:38>> Yeah. Yeah. Um the bit when I speak to
25:41one or two individuals who I'm close to
25:43within some of the large organizations
25:44that there's still the the bit they're
25:46quite um bullish about in terms of our
25:48investment
25:50>> is just around
25:52you've got to have good data
25:54>> they yeah well yeah
25:55>> if you don't have the good data
25:57talk and magnify and make it all worse
25:59>> go and and that is really really key and
26:01that's something that we're really
26:02trying to trying to sort of cement
26:05within the team especially on the QS
26:06side
26:07>> um is just making sure our cost data is
26:09structured in in the right way.
26:11>> Um we, you know, we're we're looking to
26:13sort of invest into a robust database
26:16system. Um that's underpinned by sort of
26:18Microsoft fabric, but obviously at the
26:20moment we're just exploring our options
26:22>> on that. But that is going to be
26:24fundamentally going to be key is how you
26:25capture, store that data and make sure
26:27it can't be manipulated in in a way
26:28that's not going to be fit for purpose
26:30because you know, crap in crap out is
26:32what they say.
26:33>> 100%. Well, that's the reality, isn't
26:34it? That is the reality. And I think
26:35that's what
26:37>> So you got to be careful, isn't it? I
26:38think AI is a double-edged sword. I
26:40think it can it can well undoubtedly it
26:42will. So So first of all, you've got I
26:44think your very particularly QS your
26:47very traditional QS practices who are
26:48still just dismissive of it.
26:51>> Um and probably their team are using it.
26:53I think every call it shadow AI where
26:55they aren't using it without without the
26:56the owners knowing
26:57>> knowing. Yeah.
26:58>> Um
26:59>> but they're completely dismissive of it
27:01and they're not having they don't have a
27:02great strategy around data. They're not
27:04positioning themselves to to be to be in
27:06the right place with it. I don't I don't
27:08think and they're they're in real
27:09danger.
27:10>> Yeah.
27:11>> And then you've got
27:13>> I think then there's some some of the
27:15larger consultancies are now trying to
27:17spend a lot of money on AI and trying to
27:19overlay it.
27:20>> Yeah.
27:20>> But it's no good unless all the all the
27:22foundations are correct to begin with.
27:24>> It's just it's it's really challenging.
27:26I mean
27:27>> I I I can't see an environment where it
27:30can come in and it can just do our jobs
27:31for us and get it right. I I just can't
27:34see. It's [laughter] not. No. And I
27:36might be proven wrong in the future. I
27:38do think it has value, but it is, as you
27:41say, you got to work out how you
27:43structure it right within your business
27:45and train people and how to use it
27:47properly.
27:48>> Um because,
27:50you know, it it it can't do a job for it
27:53can't answer the difficult questions
27:55around what does this mean? Um
27:58>> it tries to.
27:59>> Yeah.
27:59>> Yeah.
28:00>> And that's a worry.
28:01>> Yeah. Well, the the way it structures
28:04answers and produces outputs is
28:07phenomenal, but we look at and we go,
28:09"Oh, the answer's not not quite right.
28:11We know it's not right for these
28:12reasons."
28:13>> So, yeah, it's, you know, we've been
28:15speaking to some consultancies to see,
28:17you know, if they can help us implement
28:18an AI strategy. And it's interesting,
28:20we've gone to four or five now
28:22>> and the proposals all completely
28:24different. They all come from sort
28:25different backgrounds and I think
28:26they're all trying to work out what what
28:29it is they're they're trying to sell as
28:30well, you know. Yeah, and you've got the
28:31automation around workflows and how you
28:33improve your processes and procedures
28:35which is going to be really really
28:36beneficial for how the building
28:37operates. But business operates but um
28:40but yeah going forward it' be really
28:41interesting to see how that can
28:42implement into our into the service
28:44lines really. I do think it's going to
28:46really um accelerate the gap in the
28:49market because as I say there are still
28:51some traditional practices that
28:53>> oh yeah
28:53>> not even AI just what you touched on
28:55there Danny just simple stuff like
28:56automation like you know right if this
28:58happens and that's been around for you
29:00know well over a decade and there's some
29:01businesses not even doing that
29:03>> oh no well we interview some people who
29:05come from you know smaller sort of PQS
29:08>> consult the scale rule
29:09>> they're like scout they're like
29:10[laughter] how what software do you do
29:12you use they're like Yeah, still Excel
29:15scale you know. So, [laughter] so you
29:16know for us you know it's those bits of
29:19looking back historically when I started
29:21the indust you know industry sort of 15
29:2420 years ago people were using scar
29:26rules and then you sort of went on to
29:27you know blue beam and digitizers and
29:30obviously now we use creo which is you
29:32know phenomenal in terms of the
29:33efficiencies how we can measure
29:34buildings and that's got a lot of AI
29:36functions with it as well. So, it's just
29:38those, you know, it's going to be
29:39another evolution of what we've seen in
29:41the past and that continue to to grow. I
29:43think it will just go at a really fast
29:45pace.
29:46>> I think those that aren't looking at it,
29:50using it are going to get left behind.
29:54>> I genuinely believe it's an efficiency
29:56play.
29:57>> It's here to stay. It's here to grow.
30:00Um, and yeah, I wouldn't want to be part
30:04of an organization that wasn't going
30:06this has got to be part of our future
30:08because it's going to be.
30:09>> I I put a poll out a while ago on
30:11LinkedIn and um about about you know I
30:14you know what do you how do you feel AI
30:16is going to influence and you know I
30:17think I can't remember exactly what was
30:19the options. One of them was it's going
30:20to be an enabler.
30:20>> Yeah.
30:21>> One is I'm worried for my job because of
30:22it.
30:23>> Yeah.
30:23>> And I can't remember but the fourth
30:24option was it's not going to affect my
30:26job at all. And it was amazing the
30:27percentage who voted that and it's like
30:29wow you wow [laughter]
30:32>> that's madness.
30:33>> Yeah that is crazy.
30:34>> But this I I keep telling our team
30:38>> embrace it be excited by it but also be
30:41weary.
30:42>> Yes.
30:43>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
30:44>> Yeah.
30:45>> So I I probably understand the use case
30:48of how you can implement AI more um on
30:51the cost side.
30:53How do you think it will be implemented
30:54more on the on the PM side? Do you
30:56think?
30:56>> Oh, that's a very good question.
31:00>> Coming back to your point about the big
31:01companies who are doing it. I think a
31:02lot of big companies are very invested
31:03in how they how they can stream money
31:05for cost management.
31:06>> Yeah. It's a little bit easier if you're
31:07dealing with data, aren't you? So,
31:09>> that's a running joke though. Um, PMs,
31:11we take good minutes. [snorts]
31:13[laughter]
31:14>> Um, no. I mean, it could take minutes
31:16for us. I mean, there is software out
31:18there. The
31:19>> not taking it does take note and does
31:20take minutes. You know, you still have
31:22to read them, send check them. It
31:24doesn't always get it perfect.
31:25>> I just go on a quick tangent. I heard I
31:26heard a funny story the other day though
31:27when um they had um a full design or a
31:30full a full project team meeting um
31:33online and then the contractor left
31:35>> and then the client just just [laughter]
31:38>> absolutely went and of course the
31:40contractor then get
31:42the best one is when people got their
31:44teams channels chats up and they don't
31:45realize and it pops up and they're like
31:48email texting messaging people during
31:50meetings. We've seen it all. Yeah. is uh
31:52>> I was just like people you need to be
31:54careful.
31:55>> Absolutely. Sorry Michelle.
31:56>> No. Um so on it's a good question on the
31:58project management side because a lot of
32:00our role is like organizing other people
32:02and making sure everyone understands
32:05what we're trying to get as an outcome.
32:06Um but there are things around
32:08particularly around say for example the
32:10building safety act. Um, and I'm not
32:12suggesting this is what Copilot could do
32:14or any of those other things like Claude
32:17or anything like that, but we've seen
32:19companies develop software that's quite
32:21AI based um that can review gateway
32:24information. So, we've been partnering
32:26with the company that can do that so
32:28that you speed up the process around
32:30working out have I got a good quality
32:32submission before I submit it.
32:34>> Um, so things like that is checks, you
32:37know, we we will still do QA. You know
32:40there is still a human element to QA but
32:42if you can give a first pass through
32:44something to QA something now I always
32:47say to people I mean I've written things
32:49and where I've written it me my words
32:53and then I've asked it to tell me where
32:55I'm wrong where I'm not my point clear
32:57enough critique me challenge me so I
32:59encourage people to use it in that way
33:02get it to challenge you make it make it
33:04make you think harder about what you're
33:06trying to say so things like that you
33:09know there will be the basics around
33:10getting better trackers and schedules
33:13and things like that that are easy to
33:15populate and report out of.
33:17>> Um, so there will be the basics, but I
33:19think the things that I see project
33:21managers, it's going to be challenging
33:22them how to think harder about how you
33:25deliver a project.
33:27>> Yeah. And also I always sit there if it
33:30can unlock templates,
33:33>> form man of documents and of documents
33:35>> that will save us probably about 20% of
33:38[laughter]
33:38>> Yeah. And people don't enjoy it as well.
33:40You know, you got what are the bits that
33:41people enjoy about the job? What do they
33:43dread?
33:44>> Yeah, that's that's the first brief I've
33:46set, you know, set the business in terms
33:48of, you know, if we can unlock those two
33:50things that
33:51>> in the first instance, that's an easy
33:52win. That's an easy win.
33:54>> The irony is it's the bit that I love
33:56formatting.
33:57>> Yeah. [laughter]
33:58>> And it also be a great recruitment tool,
33:59frankly. world to because if you sit
34:01down with somebody and say, "Right, this
34:03is a day in the life of one of our QS or
34:05one of our PMs," they were like,
34:07>> "Gosh,
34:08>> what you what what pardon, [laughter]
34:10>> can I can I join, please?"
34:12>> It was it was um was interesting. We've
34:15just gone through um our interview
34:18process for apprentices for 2026 for a
34:21September intake. Um and I did ask all
34:24of those that we asked them to do a
34:26presentation as part of their second
34:28interview. Um, and the presentations
34:31were honestly quite amazing if you like
34:34and their presentation skills for for 17
34:3718 year olds. I was a little taken back
34:39going really confident, really
34:41enthusiastic, you're coming across
34:43really clear.
34:44>> I was like, the schools are clearly
34:46doing a good job.
34:47>> Um, but their presentations, you you
34:50look at them and they they could do the
34:52voice over really well, but there was a
34:54couple of them I went,
34:56>> who did that? Mhm.
34:58>> And they were like, well,
35:00chat GPT. [laughter]
35:02>> And I was like, okay, but how did chat
35:04G? And they talked me through what they
35:06prompted. And I was like, that's your
35:08work.
35:09>> It might have helped pull it together
35:10and shape it, but that's your thought
35:12process and you can articulate it to me
35:14and that's the key point.
35:16>> Um, yeah. So, they're all like
35:19>> I was I'd be more worried if no one used
35:21it because, you know, it's the future.
35:23People need to embrace it. And
35:25>> if they come in and said, "No, I didn't,
35:27you know, produced it by myself." We
35:28would be
35:29>> I'd be like, "Not that diagram."
35:30>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
35:32>> Yeah.
35:33>> Yeah. And I think it probably has to be
35:34an interview question now. You know,
35:35what's your interest in AI?
35:37>> And if someone goes, "It's a lot of
35:38rubbish."
35:39Might not be um
35:40>> one for the future at the end of the
35:42day. [laughter] They're going to be a
35:43dinosaur at the end of the day.
35:44>> Yeah.
35:45>> Yeah.
35:46>> Um so obviously I'm speaking to two
35:48relatively new equity holders in the
35:50business. So, can we talk through
35:51[laughter]
35:52>> can you talk through the maybe some of
35:53the changes that have that have happened
35:55there?
35:57>> I don't feel like anything's changed. I
35:58feel like we're always doing this job.
36:00>> Yeah. [laughter]
36:01>> I think as as a business, if you take
36:04the current own the board and the owners
36:07and you know before we we joined as
36:09owners,
36:10>> they're very much delivery focused.
36:12Obviously Mark was the outward face
36:14brand of the business out there, you
36:15know, selling selling us.
36:17>> Yeah.
36:17>> But you know, Lily, Keith, Neil, and Joe
36:22very much hands-on delivery still
36:24>> to this day. Obviously, Keith's now now
36:26um stepped back and retired, but
36:28>> you know,
36:29>> I see Keith's doing meeting minutes as a
36:31joke, but he was the PM and he would do
36:32meeting minutes as the chairman of the
36:34business.
36:34>> As the chairman of our business, you
36:35would find him reviewing a report that
36:38consultant had written and doing notes
36:40back to them on it. he'd get stuck in
36:42>> that's been the USP of the business. So
36:44they probably spend probably 60 70% of
36:46their time doing delivery with with
36:48clients and then obviously 40% of the
36:49time
36:50>> you know running the business. You know
36:51it's been a step change that we're we're
36:53sort of progressively trying to
36:55>> to to to move on um cuz if we don't
36:58obviously we you know we want to grow
36:59the business and that's going to be a
37:01challenge in itself. Yeah.
37:02>> So as coming into the business as new
37:05owners owner directors we we it's very
37:07much the same suit. We're there at a
37:09cold face delivering projects and and
37:11clients love it. That's what they want
37:12from us.
37:13>> It seems to be the model of most um you
37:15know you can't necessarily compare all
37:17size organizations but certainly I think
37:19the the goodmemes are very much you know
37:22director projects and you know direct on
37:24those projects I think is the is the
37:26>> what seems to be a
37:28>> a successful formula at the moment I
37:30think. Yeah,
37:32>> we are a senior business. Um, if I look
37:35at the shape of our business, we have
37:37more associates and directors.
37:40>> Um, which is a good thing, but can
37:42sometimes be a challenging thing because
37:45all of those associates want junior
37:47supports to do the administrative part
37:49of what they do to give them more
37:51bandwidth. And so it's like you could
37:53just keep growing and growing growing,
37:54but that's not sustainable.
37:57the right shape which we are constantly
38:00thinking about
38:06a lot of the people that join cast
38:07they're really careerdriven motivated
38:11they're gogetters
38:12>> you got to create room for those people
38:14and how do you do that with a business
38:16that's quite senior led already
38:19>> and we have a different shape on the so
38:20you know our roles within the business
38:22is you know I look after the cost
38:23management team okay
38:24>> and Michelle looks the project
38:25management team and we're in dialogue
38:27constantly um about team shape and
38:29obviously the cost management team needs
38:30a completely different shape to the PM
38:32team.
38:33>> So you know for us we have got probably
38:34more junior people within within the
38:37ranks um and they all really been
38:39phenomenal and the apprentices that
38:41we've got within the business as well.
38:43So we've had about 15 people go through
38:45the apprentichip route which we're big
38:47advocates of. We've got four more
38:49starting but for for us it's around
38:51having the right shape to deliver what
38:53we need. And on the QS side it is
38:54slightly different to what what you guys
38:56do isn't it?
38:56>> On the project management side we are
38:58probably more senior. Um there are a lot
39:02more projects now where client look to
39:04the project managers to be strategic
39:06thinkers which requires a lot of
39:08experience and skill sets around
39:10>> those. So we end up being a more kind of
39:13senior based team. Um which you know you
39:16said yourself clients like that at the
39:18moment. You know that's what they want.
39:19They want people that are able to drive
39:21decisions and not necessarily just
39:25>> the project managers who will just pass
39:28information through.
39:29>> Yeah.
39:30>> That's not what most clients are looking
39:32to point. They really see the clients
39:34that we work with. They see us as an
39:36extension of them. [clears throat]
39:38>> So ultimately they want us to be
39:39thinking about their aspirations for
39:42project, what they want out of the
39:43project and for us to challenge teams
39:45and work with their design teams to get
39:47to that outcome. Whereas, you know, you
39:50could say 10 years ago,
39:53>> it wasn't like that.
39:54>> Yeah.
39:55>> It was [clears throat] you're a project
39:56manager, you know, you took the minutes,
39:58you organized the meeting where now
40:00you're actually helping to drive the
40:02outcomes, which is a very different
40:04place to be in, but it needs more senior
40:06people.
40:07>> Yeah.
40:07>> Yeah. Yeah, I think I've seen that shift
40:09within the consultancy world now that
40:11clients want um and this this is
40:14applicable on the cost as it is on the
40:15PM side, but they want a more commercial
40:17service, you know, you to drive a
40:18commercial outcome for them, not just
40:20report on on the project.
40:22>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know,
40:23that's part of our mission statement,
40:25which is now changed, which is
40:26delivering better outcomes, but now it's
40:27assuring outcome.
40:28>> Assuring outcomes,
40:29>> right?
40:30>> Yeah. So that's a big part of the
40:31business is about that outcome focus,
40:33outcome thinking, making sure that, you
40:35know, we're not being passive, that
40:36we're, you know, thinking like we're the
40:38client and also help drive the the the
40:41the outcomes that they want and need.
40:43>> Yeah.
40:43>> Yeah. Brilliant. No, good. Yeah. Sounds
40:46like quite a subtle change that. But it
40:47does make it does mean a lot of
40:48difference, doesn't it?
40:49>> Yeah.
40:50>> Yeah. Good.
40:51>> So obviously three-year plan 90 now all
40:55in London at the moment. Is there plans
40:56to expand that number? maybe expand the
40:59office network. Have you got any
41:00thoughts on that that you're happy to
41:01share?
41:02>> Yeah, so obviously we um we've got an
41:04office up in Edinburgh which has been
41:06led by Chris Kerr.
41:07>> Ah, I wasn't aware of that.
41:08>> Yeah. So, it's a very small office. So,
41:10again, we we're quite an organic growth
41:12company. We always have been um
41:14>> you know, for you know, for a for that
41:17reason, he's uh relocated up there. We
41:19had some projects up there that he was
41:21working on. So,
41:22>> he's up he's up there making good
41:24progress in sort of trying to trying to
41:26grow that office.
41:27We're looking at other locations, but
41:29it's all around really cementing our
41:32projects in there first before just
41:33going in and opening up an office in
41:35that in those locations. So,
41:37>> yeah, it's all all around the UK, UK
41:39based at the moment that we're sort of
41:40exploring. But we've always worked all
41:42around the UK. um you know ma main
41:45cities follow our clients but we are
41:47seeing the sectors we work in being more
41:50um um our clients more moving into those
41:53geographical locations outside of London
41:55because obviously London's quite hard to
41:57>> build feasibility piece again and you
41:59know cost viability I guess
42:01>> exactly that big big big challenges so
42:03um so yeah it's been been great you know
42:04we like we we like working in other
42:06cities um some cities are harder than
42:09others and it all depends who the
42:10clients are some people like people
42:12who's got that experience there. But we
42:14feel like we've got a lot of ground
42:15covered already in the 10 years only
42:17being London based in terms of office,
42:19but we've, you know, we've got great
42:21experience up in Edinburgh, Birmingham,
42:23Bristol, Leadeds. Um, so we we're we're
42:27good and we hopefully we can crack those
42:28markets.
42:30>> And do you envisage
42:33headcount growing significantly or not?
42:37>> Depends what you mean by significantly.
42:39I mean, ultimately it will grow. Yeah.
42:41you know, can I sit here and say we're
42:43going to be 150 person business? No, I
42:45don't know.
42:46>> Okay.
42:46>> I mean, the hard thing or the thing you
42:49wrestle with in terms of business size
42:52because as I said earlier, there is the
42:54there is the bit around creating the
42:57room for people to grow
42:59>> into. So, you you end up having a
43:01different shape which may be a slightly
43:02bigger business. But there's also
43:05maintaining the control of the quality
43:07of what we're doing and it's how you can
43:09keep that
43:10>> at a larger business. So you know I do
43:13think we are growing
43:15>> we will grow. It's how far do we grow. I
43:19think that's [clears throat] what we're
43:20working through.
43:21>> I think any any businesses when you get
43:23to our level you sort of capping out in
43:24terms of the SM and then you need to
43:26restructure in terms of how you can
43:28>> you know get to to a bigger business.
43:30And I think that's the thing we're just
43:31sort of
43:32>> toying with at the moment is, you know,
43:34where do we take it? But again, it's all
43:35around
43:36>> sector focus, client focus, and then
43:39then grow from there.
43:40>> We only have to look at, you know, our
43:42support team um who are incredible. But
43:44we have six people within that team now,
43:47which is quite a decent size support
43:49team. You know, that's including the
43:52fact that we have some external IT and
43:54HR
43:55>> in addition to our internal teams, but
43:57it's quite a decent sized team. And one
44:00we had two people doing it.
44:02>> And so we've grown that part of the
44:04business to create more um bandwidth for
44:08those doing project and client delivery
44:10to focus on that and the daytoday
44:13running of the business and its function
44:15happens in house and
44:16>> we brought in some really really great
44:18people that have been able to lead that
44:20for us.
44:22>> Yeah.
44:22>> Yeah. Yeah. So quite interesting that
44:24evolution for a consultancy about you
44:26know when when you're bringing non
44:27fearing roles what those non- earning
44:29roles are big
44:30>> decision prioritized. Yeah.
44:32>> Yeah. It's a big decision to make. We
44:33>> got ahead of people joining.
44:34>> We have a head of people joining um not
44:37too distant future which you know will
44:39again create um
44:42somebody with a bit of fresh thinking
44:44around people and um what training and
44:46development and plans around that um
44:49which again is it's not somebody from
44:51our sector. interesting somebody outside
44:53which is a good thing sometimes
44:55>> which again it's just fresh thinking
44:57fresh ideas because sometimes you just
44:59you can't get over what you know you
45:01can't get out of that thinking so
45:03>> having somebody looking forward to um
45:05will um
45:07>> hopefully insert a little bit of renewed
45:10thinking in the business around those
45:12those things.
45:13>> Yeah. Good. Good.
45:17Almost kind of come back to the
45:18beginning of the conversation.
45:20What do you both think the construction
45:22industry is going to look like in in
45:24let's say another 10 years?
45:26>> Good question. Yeah,
45:27>> I don't think robotics. So, start
45:30[laughter]
45:31I think when you look on on site, you
45:33know, there's going to be processes and
45:36the way we do things will change. It's a
45:38bit like the MMC
45:39>> discussion, isn't it? And I think
45:41obviously we need to be a less reliant
45:42on on human labor, but ideally
45:46>> we're always going to need tradesmen,
45:47trades people on site. That's never
45:49going to go away. and that's not changed
45:51in probably a few hundred years.
45:53>> So I think we're always going to build
45:55in that way. [clears throat]
45:56>> I think what's going to probably change
45:58>> potentially is looking at how the
46:00delivery models in terms of how
46:01contractors are set up, right?
46:03>> How that works, the management
46:04structures within within businesses and
46:06contractors how how they deliver
46:07projects will will change.
46:09>> Um we don't know how far it's normally
46:11investorled because at the moment you
46:13know we look at construction management
46:15you know very
46:16>> it's growing isn't it marginally now
46:18growing. it is growing but you know
46:20investors don't like construction
46:21management because they want everything
46:22wrapped up in a DMB wrapper.
46:24>> Um so you know tier tier ones are more
46:27going down that that route typically we
46:29we see
46:30>> but it all it's it's all going to be
46:32down to what the project is the
46:33complexities of the project and how it
46:35needs to be delivered.
46:36>> Building in London's always going to be
46:37complex just because the way obviously
46:39being built historically is always going
46:42to be a challenge and expensive and
46:43difficult to build in build in London.
46:45>> Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I'm hopeful that
46:48the the burden on when you go to site
46:51and the administration and the paperwork
46:53and all that sort of stuff will will be
46:55done more efficiently with the
46:56developments of technology. I believe
46:58the way we'll build, you know, we've
47:00already seen enhancements of things like
47:03bathroom pods, you know, you would
47:04believe, you know, take a bathroom pod
47:06being built in a factory being dropped
47:07in where previously you would need nine
47:09trades in a in a 5 square meter bathroom
47:11to build it. Yeah. Okay.
47:13>> So, it's those sort of um developments
47:15we we'll see. Um and we're also looking
47:17at the methodologies in terms of um how
47:20things are being built. I full pre-cast
47:22frame solutions versus concrete frame,
47:24you know, facade methodologies, all
47:26those things will just keep keep
47:28evolving and keep developing. I think
47:30so. Yeah, I don't think it'll hugely
47:31change in 10 years. I think the more the
47:33the admin side of the the delivery.
47:36>> I would agree. I think in terms of the
47:38processes we use and how we actually
47:40administer the contracts, I think that
47:42will evolve. I think it will become
47:45>> um more
47:48more clearer um and more simplified in
47:52terms of we will have better access to
47:54the data. You know, I think the days in
47:5710 years time of um getting a report
48:01from a contractor on progress which
48:03they've just had to rush through the day
48:06before in terms of that and not really
48:07understanding where they are against
48:08things. I think that will move on. I
48:10think we will have better understanding
48:13of exactly where progress is on site
48:15because technology will enable us to do
48:17that and we're seeing that now. There
48:19are some systems and softwares out there
48:21at the moment that can really in like
48:24really go into the detail
48:27>> um yeah they're very intelligent and
48:29they can really go into the detail about
48:31you know how many
48:33>> bolts and nuts are on site.
48:35>> Um so having more and more of that we'll
48:38have more certainty around where we are
48:40in a process and hopefully less
48:42extension of time claims and less
48:44adjudication
48:45because everything will be really open
48:47out there. um during the process of the
48:50build.
48:50>> Yeah, I think one of the benefits of AI
48:52is that um it's bringing the cost of I
48:57guess you'd call it software products
48:58down because that was one of one of the
49:00barriers. In fact, I remember
49:02>> having this conversation with with Joe
49:04years ago and talking about digital um
49:06and he you know he said at the time he's
49:08like
49:09>> you know we're behind it some of our
49:10clients behind it but the industry is so
49:12fragmented that's the biggest issue. Um,
49:15you know, it's a good big and Joe Blogs
49:17and something in their van can't afford
49:19>> no
49:19>> to have a license for this particular
49:20piece of software [clears throat] that
49:21cost grand at a time. Um,
49:23>> whereas if you've got some products now
49:25that can integrate with others and
49:27they're relatively cheap to
49:28>> it's even like you just took accountancy
49:31software for you know formemes
49:32businesses you know that's phenomenal
49:35you know links to your bank account you
49:36can just see where payments going does
49:38your tax returns for you. Um, you know,
49:41I think I think they're the they're the
49:42changes we'll definitely see in in that
49:45regard. So, but we we get approached by
49:48software developers all the time to say,
49:50"Look, working on this bit of software,
49:53you know, we wanted to do the valuations
49:54and cross reports. Can can you help us
49:56cuz we've got this product, but it's not
49:58quite landing in the market."
49:59>> Um, and most of it is focused at the
50:01contractor market rather than the
50:02consultancy market. Yeah.
50:04>> And some of them, you know, they're
50:05good. They're okay. They do a job. But
50:07would you go and spend, you know, I
50:08don't know how much these guys are spent
50:10developing these softwares, but I can
50:11imagine it's running into hundreds of
50:12thousands, if not millions, and they're
50:14selling it trying to sell it for for 100
50:16quid a 100 quid a go.
50:17>> And you just think it's just Yeah. It's
50:19uh it's crazy. But we're always getting
50:21approached to help develop softwares.
50:23>> Yeah. No, we do. It's going to be that I
50:25think that landscape is going to be
50:26quite interesting because
50:29you know in my world I get I'm get hit
50:32up constantly now by people trying to
50:33sell me the the last day the next
50:35solution next piece of software and
50:37logically they can't all be successful.
50:39at some type. Interesting. He's going to
50:40be backing the right horse and make sure
50:42that you
50:42>> Yeah.
50:43>> You know, you back the one that actually
50:44will exist and has got the right
50:45funding, has got the, you know, has got
50:47the right people in place to to build
50:48that.
50:49>> The build dots one, you know, that's a
50:51really good piece of software. Um,
50:52really, really good. And we're using it
50:53on a few projects, but it's got
50:56expensive to implement on your projects.
50:57And I think they got just got funding or
51:00valued at a significant amount of money.
51:02Crazy money.
51:03>> Yeah.
51:04>> Didn't see that.
51:04>> Yeah. Yeah.
51:06>> Yeah. No, there's so many out there. You
51:08can get overwhelmed by it too.
51:10[laughter]
51:10>> I think you really can.
51:11>> You really can get overwhelmed by it
51:13because they all do something similar
51:15but not the same. And it's just, oh,
51:18what do we choose? You know, and we
51:19spend a lot of time
51:21>> talking to companies, evaluating whether
51:24or not it works for us, deciding yes or
51:26no. And it is sometimes really hard to
51:28make that decision to say no.
51:30>> Yeah.
51:30>> But you have to.
51:31>> Huge investments.
51:32>> You have to. if you're if you're not if
51:35you've got doubts, there's a little bit
51:37about taking, you know, taking a leap of
51:39faith and there's a little bit about
51:40have I got enough reservation, I should
51:42just say no, [snorts]
51:43>> you know, thank you, but not for now.
51:45Um, but, you know, we've had some really
51:47positive ones that come, you know, that
51:48we're talking to at the moment about how
51:51they support us in um, structuring the
51:54way we do things in a slightly different
51:55way. It's not necessarily about using
51:57AI. It's about how we hold information
52:00which I think are really valuable routes
52:02to look at. Um but yeah, it's a TBC
52:05whether or not it actually works.
52:06>> Yeah. Yeah.
52:07>> Yeah. So it's going to be it's it's
52:09going to be interesting I think how how
52:11it all evolves I think.
52:12>> Yeah.
52:13>> Um because all of these things not only
52:15the cost of the actual product the time
52:17commitment
52:18>> implementation time. Yeah. It's
52:20interesting.
52:21>> Yeah.
52:22>> Amazing. It's been a really good chat.
52:24>> Yeah. I always end with asking you who
52:26has been your best boss or mentor, the
52:29person who's influenced your career the
52:31most. Would you say?
52:33>> Oh, I I'm not going to name names.
52:35That's not fair. Any other boss,
52:37[laughter] the one I know, but I will I
52:39mean I I will refer to who he is. You
52:41know, I
52:43>> I've been working in the industry for
52:46gosh 25 years now. It's a very long
52:48time. Um, but I didn't always start
52:52doing residential development the way I
52:54am now. When I first started working in
52:56this industry, I was working for a small
52:59organization called Starfish Consulting.
53:02>> Okay.
53:02>> Um, who actually disbanded a few a
53:05couple years after I joined them and
53:06joined Tribal Group, which is a really
53:08big consultancy. Um, and that small
53:10company was like a management
53:12consultancy doing a lot of housing
53:13association work. And I was the
53:16receptionist
53:18and the managing director of that
53:20business um, notified the business one
53:22day that they were going to be selling
53:24the business to a larger company and
53:28I was like I think I was living in
53:30London for two year for two years. I
53:32that was my first job. So I hadn't been
53:34here long what I'm going to do. I'm a
53:36receptionist. I hadn't gone to
53:37university. That's a story for another
53:39day why that happened. But [laughter]
53:42um I was like, "What am I going to do?"
53:43And he was like, "Look, they don't need
53:45another receptionist,
53:46>> but I think you've got a skill set that
53:50could be well adapted to consultancy, so
53:52we're going to train you."
53:52>> Brilliant.
53:53>> And they brought me into the big
53:54organization. They invested me, trained
53:56me, put me through my degree um whilst I
54:00was working. Um ultimately, I ended up
54:02leaving and joining EC Harris. But that
54:06person saw something in me that I didn't
54:08see me in the time which is really great
54:11and and that's I've always wanted to
54:13give back in that way because of how he
54:15was with me as in find something that
54:18somebody doesn't see in themselves and
54:20help them nurture and grow in
54:22>> because ultimately you know that's what
54:24we're here for. So yeah so I won't say
54:27who he is but you know there's been so
54:28many people that have influenced me
54:30across my career. I've worked with some
54:31really amazing people that have inspired
54:33me.
54:34>> Yeah.
54:35>> And the thing that I've left with is I
54:37want to inspire other people because
54:39those people inspired me. But
54:40>> I'm not going to name names. [laughter]
54:42>> No problem. So yeah. So
54:46>> my my route into industry was actually
54:49>> I started on the tools. Um so I had my
54:51own subcontractor business from the age
54:52of 19 to
54:53>> to 24. So I was sort of my own boss
54:55trying to find my way throughout there.
54:58So, um, but I've probably had sort of
55:00three or four people who's been sort of,
55:02um, from that time he's been sort of
55:04influential for me.
55:05>> Um, Mark Brian, who, um, who's, uh, very
55:10old, very old school in his way, so he
55:11he hired me at Regal Home, so I was
55:13there for him for three years. He's he's
55:15really good and I'm in contact with him
55:16a lot now. Um, obviously Joe Thornton
55:19has been great for me. Um, I've worked
55:21closely with Joe over the last last 10
55:22years, but also Frank was good when I
55:25when I joined cast. You said Joe's going
55:26to have a go that I had not say to him
55:28now because you said him.
55:29>> Well, that's the case. I thought that
55:31[laughter] I thought that would be the
55:32case. We all love Joe. He's like a big
55:34bear, is
55:35>> but then I think I think you know you
55:38know
55:39>> Joe Frank I was referring to referring
55:41to Joe as a big bear but Frank is a
55:42Frank.
55:42>> Oh yeah Frank [laughter]
55:46Frank was good when I first when I first
55:48joined cast and I think from you know an
55:50inspiring person he's got Keith
55:52>> I mean and Keith Keith Brooks.
55:55>> Yeah.
55:56>> It's just you know I had a phone call
55:57with him this morning. were putting a
55:59bid in for a project and he was giving
56:00me some advice and I'm sat there going
56:03>> I miss not getting to spend the amount
56:04of time I used to get to spend with him
56:06cuz he's just so good at what he does
56:08and you see things
56:10>> so clearly yeah such a great person to
56:13work with. Yeah, I would absolutely say
56:15he's definitely
56:17>> an inspiring person. But that's the
56:19great thing about cast I think
56:22>> we're all so different. Yeah, all so
56:25different. so different and they've all
56:27got such unique qualities. You want to
56:29work with these people.
56:31>> You want to learn. You want to kind of
56:33>> grab [snorts] on to them and learn from
56:35them. And that's the kind of business
56:36that they started out creating that
56:38we're continuing to create now. One
56:40where people are inspired by the people
56:42they work with.
56:43>> Yeah. Yeah. They're all they're all
56:45really good and very different in their
56:46own life. You meet them all you'd think,
56:47how's this business been so successful?
56:49But
56:49>> that's probably one of the key recipes.
56:51Yeah. And in fact, you know, between the
56:54the the four new owner directors, we're
56:55all complet different as well. So,
56:58>> yeah,
56:58>> that's good because you can't be an echo
57:00chamber. [clears throat]
57:01>> Exactly. Different is good.
57:02>> Yeah.
57:03>> Yeah.
57:04>> Amazing. Thank you both for your time
57:05today. No worries. No, thank you very
57:07much. Yeah. You've been great.
57:09>> Thank you very much. Cheers. Cheers.
57:10Thank you.
57:11>> Thank you.

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