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CAMERA MOVEMENT - with Tom Cross & Ed Lachman — Transcript

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0:03Hi and welcome to season 2 of the Team
0:06Deakins podcast.
0:08A collection of informal conversations
0:10between Roger and James Deakins and a
0:12guest.
0:13We never know where the conversation
0:15will take us. So listen in and see where
0:18it goes.
0:21This episode is sponsored by Aputure, a
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0:52ecosystem at aputure.com.
0:59This episode is sponsored by Profoto.
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1:43possibilities.
1:46Today we're examining the topic of
1:49camera movement in films. To join us in
1:51this discussion are editor Tom Cross and
1:55cinematographer Ed Lachman.
1:57Thank you guys for doing this. This is
1:59going to be fun. Yeah, well, thanks so
2:02much. Yeah. Thank you. We should
2:04probably start and just talk about how
2:07camera movement can add to a scene. Why
2:10would you choose camera movement? Why
2:12wouldn't you? Yeah, why move the camera?
2:14Well, I guess I'll start.
2:16Um
2:18Yeah. I just in a in a in a general
2:20context, I wanted to make a statement
2:24and then it's about visual it's about
2:27visualization about why images are so
2:31important in films and what makes it
2:33different than a book, a play, a
2:36photograph,
2:38uh
2:38anyway, so the language of film are not
2:40only words, but images. And maybe even
2:43more so in what they evoke in our
2:46thoughts and emotions. What makes a film
2:48different than a play, a book, a poem,
2:51music, even a painting or photograph?
2:54Well, it's the movement of images
2:56through time and space and its duration
2:59relationship to each other and their
3:01environment. It's a nonverbal form of
3:04communication
3:06like music.
3:08And it's the architecture of the space
3:11and time and light to create the
3:13emotional structure of the film and its
3:15characters.
3:17So, that's what I've always related to
3:20about why images are as important or
3:23maybe sometimes emotionally more
3:26important than the words because it sets
3:30the context of the world that we're
3:32looking at.
3:34And then how we interface with the
3:36editing, you know, for me images have a
3:39a visual rhythm.
3:42And the question is does the editing
3:45enhance that or
3:48complement that or does it go against
3:51that? And that's always
3:53the difficulty for me is like when I
3:55shoot a film and even with a director
3:58who's
3:59into shooting it in in that that
4:02movement in that in that time, what
4:05happens to that in the editing process?
4:09But,
4:10if you take
4:12one of my favorite directors, Robert
4:13Bresson, one of the classic directors,
4:16he rarely moved the camera. I mean, you
4:18think of Trial of Joan of Arc, Diary of
4:21a Country Priest, or or A Man Escaped,
4:24which is my particular favorite, the
4:26camera hardly moves. Maybe it pans now
4:29and again. Maybe there might be a slight
4:32tilt down or push in on something, but
4:35it's all done in the structure of the
4:37cutting, and the camera doesn't move.
4:39So,
4:40Tom, what do you think about that
4:42relative to the way we make films now
4:45with, you know, long camera moves and
4:48and and quite you know,
4:51you know, yeah. Well, I've been you
4:54know, I've been lucky to work on the
4:55movies I've worked on. I mean, one comes
4:57to mind is Well, two that come to mind
5:00are both Damien Chazelle movies. One is
5:01Whiplash, where
5:04uh you know, he really wanted to tell
5:05the story through cuts. He referred to
5:08cuts at right angles, and and um an
5:10editing style that would kind of make
5:13you feel the presence of the edits. He
5:15wanted everything to have a little bit
5:17of an edge. And by the time we got to La
5:19La Land, his next movie, it was really
5:22the opposite. You know, that movie he
5:23really envisioned with Linus Sandgren,
5:26cinematographer, a lot of long one-ers,
5:29or seemingly single one-er shots, a lot
5:33of camera movement, more romantic in a
5:35way. You know, Whiplash was
5:38I think his design for it was more about
5:41a sort of brutality, a more more
5:43edge-of-your-seat kind of violence.
5:45Whereas, I think La La Land was more
5:48languid, more romantic. And, you know, I
5:51think of movies like I Am Cuba, you
5:54know, which I think was a big reference
5:56or one of many references for them. And
5:58there there is I don't know what it is,
6:00whether it's There's something that's
6:02very primal about camera movement, I I
6:05feel. Cuz a lot of times, you know, it
6:08becomes A lot of times it's literally a
6:09point of view, or it's supposed to be a
6:11point of view. Sometimes it's not quite
6:13a point of view, but there's There's
6:15maybe it's not a character's view, but
6:16it's the filmmaker's point of view, or
6:18something that's that's an omniscient
6:21point of view. But there's something
6:22that's very engaging, and I don't know
6:24if I I feel like that's something that
6:26goes back to the early days of cinema,
6:28you know, certainly movement with the
6:31train coming into the station. That was
6:33That was a shocking thing, but I also
6:35think about why was it that, you know,
6:37when when
6:39when people came up with Cinerama, why
6:42was it that the first thing you saw was
6:44a roller coaster? Cuz they knew that
6:46that was going to grab the audience's
6:49attention. And there's there's something
6:50primal and visceral about that that is,
6:53for me, so cinematic. I mean, I
6:57I think about one of a movie that always
6:59inspired me when I was younger was The
7:00French Connection. And that's inspiring
7:03and beautiful-looking for a lot of
7:05different reasons. It's such a movie
7:07about a place. You know, you really feel
7:09like you're there, and it's it's so
7:10vivid in its depiction of this world.
7:13And it's happens to be a world that I
7:15think dovetails really nicely with with
7:17documentary, so it it can't help but
7:19feel like a real world. But then, you
7:21know, you have something very overt that
7:23that the the centerpiece of the of the
7:26story is a car chase, which says so much
7:28about his character, Gene Hackman's
7:30character, but also is something that,
7:33you know, really is subjective and
7:35throws you into it in a very primal way.
7:38And I feel like, you know, throughout
7:41film history, there are these I don't
7:44know there's something undeniable about
7:45the power of
7:47a moving camera and the power especially
7:50of something subjective. It's
7:52interesting though cuz Bresson said that
7:54he didn't move the camera cuz he felt it
7:56was more authentic. He shot everything
7:58on a 50 mil. Mhm. And it was more
8:00authentic just to allow the audience to
8:03move the camera as it were by viewing
8:06the the shot. Yeah, well well Ozu had
8:09the same philosophy, you know.
8:11Right. He shot everything from a 50 mm
8:14and it was static.
8:16I I think partly what happens is people
8:20think it keeps the interest if the
8:22camera's moving. Like I always say
8:25no one's going to leave the theater in a
8:27pan. You're always going to want it's
8:29it's our way we see things. It's it's
8:32kind of like we're always going to be
8:34engaged if it's a moving shot, but it
8:37becomes gratuitous. Just the same way I
8:39think what happened with steady cam when
8:42it first came in that everybody used
8:45steady cam to see how long they could
8:47make a shot with a steady cam. It didn't
8:49necessarily mean that it was interesting
8:51what you're looking at.
8:53And so the question is
8:55for me, you know, is the camera a
8:58subjective camera with a camera movement
9:00or an objective camera, you know.
9:03Douglas Sirk used it as a
9:06it was unmotivated. He did something
9:09with a moving camera that was always
9:11unmotivated for the emotion. He felt it
9:14gave it emotion.
9:15But then like Godard in the famous in
9:19Weekend, the long tracking shot, the
9:218-minute tracking shot. For him, he said
9:24it was
9:25it was about the morality of the shot. I
9:28don't totally understand what he meant
9:31by morality of the shot, but it gave the
9:34viewer the chance to observe something
9:37from a distance.
9:39So, it's I just think
9:41Mhm.
9:42What can I say? I can say I've been on
9:45films where they want to throw in the
9:47steady cam operator because we're losing
9:50time and they figure they're going to
9:52get the shots we need.
9:55And that's the wrong reason to use it,
9:57but I know out of necessity.
9:59So, I guess that is a frustration on a
10:02certain level. If If you don't use the
10:04camera
10:05language as a motivation for the
10:07storytelling and it's imposed
10:11on the storytelling
10:13in the sense that going to be
10:15interesting. I don't maybe it's because
10:18we come out of commercials
10:20that we you know, we want this eye candy
10:22all the time.
10:24So, would you say then that it's
10:26important to have that discussion before
10:28you even start shooting with the
10:31director, the cinematographer, and the
10:33editor because I know sometimes
10:37I I have felt that the editors come on
10:40late and not been a part of that
10:42discussion and is sort of cutting it in
10:44a different way than we're shooting it,
10:47which may come from lack of discussion.
10:50Do you think that's really important to
10:52do in the beginning?
10:53I think it's ideal to
10:55you know, when I
10:57have done movies with
10:59Damien Chazelle and with Scott Cooper, I
11:01can remember just off the top of my
11:03head, I remember some
11:04a lot of conversations about what the
11:06style will be, how we're going to tell
11:07the story, references. I think film
11:10references. I mean, not that every
11:12filmmaker works with film references,
11:14but if they do, that's always really
11:16helpful for me to get a just to get in
11:19someone's head or if it's music or some
11:22or some form of art, you know, what is
11:25it, you know, I can get a at least a
11:27little piece of inspiration from that or
11:29get inside the filmmaker's head a little
11:31bit. So, discussions definitely great. I
11:34mean, I have as an editor, I've been
11:37asked to come and help on movies several
11:40times and often because I've done a lot
11:42of music movies, they're often music
11:45related movies. So, I do on occasion
11:47come into a process later where I
11:50haven't been privy to discussions and I
11:54I learn them along the way either
11:55through the film, you know, through the
11:57director through the producers or
12:00and so sometimes I see different styles
12:02of shooting and you know, I I I think
12:05you know, something over and something
12:07like a heavy stylistic stuff with moving
12:09the camera. Uh you know, sometimes it's
12:12great. I think when it's planned, when
12:14it means something, when it when it is
12:17designed to do something emotional.
12:19Other times it's just decorative. And
12:22sometimes that's as an editor depending
12:23on how the film is, something that's as
12:26good as you can get, you know, is to do
12:28something well, let's let's make it look
12:30good at least on the surface because
12:31there's nothing else there. But um but I
12:34do remember being a conversation, you
12:35know, getting back to you know,
12:38something that's camera movement that's
12:40visceral and or versus, you know, Roger
12:42what you brought up which
12:44Bresson which is this more observational
12:47style. I mean, I feel like a lot of that
12:49really does cuz my memory of really any
12:52Bresson movie I've seen feels very
12:56true to life and very there's a
12:58naturalism to it. Um which is funny and
13:01I but I think part of it is because it
13:03feels like it's un messed with,
13:05untainted. There's some I just something
13:09in my gut when I'm watching that says
13:11that that the hand of the filmmaker is
13:13is sort of letting the image be which we
13:17know to not be true,
13:19accurate. But that's maybe that's part
13:21of it. And so it kind of cuts both ways,
13:25I think, you know, with with that sort
13:27of docu-drama
13:29style, whether it be Owen Roizman in The
13:31French Connection or, you know, Barry
13:33Ackroyd and Paul Greengrass' stuff, you
13:36know, that depending on how you use it,
13:38that can feel very visceral and very
13:40real, and maybe part of that comes from
13:42our knowledge of cinema verite or
13:44newsreels going even further back, where
13:46that somehow meant it was authentic
13:50versus maybe Douglas Sirk, although, you
13:52know, it all comes down to emotion, I
13:54think, what feels emotionally right. But
13:56but I do I do remember having a
13:58discussion with a director, and we were
14:00talking about a film that had come out
14:03that was done with kind of a verite
14:06style, more modern film, and we were
14:09talking about it, and I said, "Well,
14:10this is I was saying, 'This is kind of
14:12interesting, this this the way they shot
14:14this, don't you think?'" And he said,
14:16"Well, you know, yes, but I think, you
14:19know, sometimes we have a higher calling
14:21than just doing something that's messy
14:24and merely handheld." And I appreciated
14:27what his sentiment was, because I think
14:29I think that's the you know, there's
14:31there's a there can be something
14:33superficial about merely doing cinema
14:35verite just to make it look cinema
14:37verite.
14:38I mean, I think that was his point, you
14:40know?
14:42I I mean, fun it's interesting how much
14:44is technology driving
14:47the way we shoot. I mean, I think back
14:49to
14:50John Huston's Red Badge of Courage,
14:53right, which is one of the first films
14:55that
14:56involved the audience in a battle
14:59by using long tracking shots. And the
15:02the prior to that, 1951, there weren't
15:04many films with tracking shots of any
15:07length, of any speed. And yeah, the
15:10film was cut to bits by the studio, but
15:13it's still if you watch Red Badge of
15:14Courage, you're really feeling engaged,
15:17you feel part of that that that Civil
15:20War battlefield. And um
15:24it's interesting that that's really
15:25constructed and to Ed's point about the
15:28Steadicam when it came out first, it was
15:31oh, let and I was working with a
15:33director once for a while who said, "Oh,
15:35just put it on a Steadicam, we'll find
15:37the shot." Mhm.
15:38Then then then you look at a film like
15:42uh Elem Klimov's Come and See Mhm. where
15:45the operator
15:47learned the Steadicam with Garrett Brown
15:50and that was the first film that he ever
15:51shot with it in 1984 or 5 and there's
15:55incredible but very very specific shots
15:59and they that they put the audience in a
16:01position in a very specific way as
16:05uh
16:06engaging with the characters at one
16:08point and then becoming an observer.
16:10It's It's very interesting. It's very
16:12calculated.
16:13Um can you talk a bit Ed maybe about
16:16that sort of
16:17evolution of technology and how it's
16:20driving film?
16:21it's kind of what you both uh
16:23spoke about and it's using a technique,
16:27let's say like handheld. Like Woody
16:29Allen used handheld in a period his
16:32films.
16:33And I think it's because they think it's
16:35emotional realism that then you're going
16:38to believe in the performance.
16:40But I find that it it Look, what we all
16:43do is manipulation all the time. You
16:45know, even they're worried about AI.
16:47We're all manipulating the image.
16:50Nothing is right. Real. It It's a It's a
16:53It's a ma- It's a movie.
16:55movie. It's It's a mannered,
16:56manufactured world we're creating. But
17:00if you use a a style or approach
17:04visually because you think that's going
17:06to bring people closer to the idea that
17:10this is real
17:12I find that false. I find that you know,
17:14people are more sophisticated with that.
17:17To know in fact that they've done
17:20studies why people respond to melodrama
17:23over naturalism sometimes. Because they
17:26know they're being manipulated. It
17:28allows their emotions to be what's real
17:31is their their emotion.
17:33And so we have to be careful about what
17:36tools we use to portray an idea or an
17:41emotion in a story. Otherwise that can
17:44feel as false as what we're trying to
17:47create.
17:48Yeah, you know, Ed Ed, I was thinking of
17:52I had re- re-watched recently Far from
17:54Heaven, which I saw I remember seeing in
17:56the theater when it came out. And
17:59talking about Douglas Sirk. And you
18:02know, the the way the story is told is
18:06so
18:08like Douglas Sirk, so emotional, but
18:11it's very
18:13it's it's very measured and it's it's
18:17very there's a rhythm to it that's very
18:19disciplined. But extremely emotional.
18:22And and in terms of camera movement, I
18:25remember thinking that this is a such a
18:27you know, there's a certain amount of
18:29stability
18:31perceived stability in the storytelling
18:33where the camera's placed, how it moves
18:36or how it's framed, which kind of makes
18:39which which feels appropriate to the to
18:41the setting and the setting of the
18:43story, which is on the surface. It's
18:45it's almost uh nothing to see here. It's
18:47almost invisible, but but obviously
18:49everything is so well designed and so so
18:53planned. And I just think of there's a
18:55couple moments that that that I love and
18:59we're talking about the camera doing
19:01something that is emotional. There's a
19:03moment where if I'm remembering it
19:06correctly, where Julianne Moore has a
19:08scarf that I think it blows away.
19:11Yeah. And the camera follows it up into
19:14the sky, follows it, and I don't
19:17remember how many cuts there are, but it
19:19basically It's one. One. Okay, well,
19:22then and when we we come down
19:24still in the killer crane. We come down
19:26and and
19:27and we see it's being held in a hand.
19:30Mhm. And there's something that is
19:33it's it's really if you really think
19:34about it, it's quite a departure from
19:36what's come before, but it it doesn't it
19:39feels completely I mean, I didn't even
19:41remember it from the first several times
19:44I saw it, but when I was rewatching it,
19:46I was like, I remember the moment, but I
19:47didn't remember how you did it. But it
19:49was so felt emotionally powerful and
19:52impactful. Um and then it's almost like
19:55you you know, for me as an editor, a lot
19:57of it is about contrast, you know, if
19:59the whole story is told one way I feel
20:02like the trick is how do you how do you
20:05not you know, if it's if it's volume of
20:08music, how do you not play the whole
20:09thing at 11 11. so to speak. How do you
20:12how do you tee up things that are
20:14important emotionally for people to get?
20:16Well, you know, what you say is so
20:18interesting. You it's about consistency.
20:21Cuz how many times have we been on a
20:22film and the director sees something
20:25over the weekend and says, "Oh, we
20:27should do a shot like that." But it but
20:29it's not consistent to the style you set
20:32up. So, something that I discovered in
20:34Sirk's films that I never really spoke
20:37about until you started to speak
20:39about it is he shot these they were
20:43weepies. They were, you know, soap
20:45operas back lot Universal in like 18
20:4920 days. So, what I realized he did is
20:52he put he used a like a 32 or a 25
20:57on a dolly and then they just punched in
21:01with a longer lens from the same camera
21:04position. They didn't move off axis. So,
21:07that's what we did. We shot on the same
21:10axis a lot of the film. So, I tried to
21:14recreate the limitations. Sometimes the
21:17limitations are the strength in a
21:20visualization of a story. And so, I I
21:23think because we have every option now,
21:26everybody tries to get into the bag of
21:29tools to do play with all these things.
21:32But, it's important to be consistent to
21:34what the style is that you're creating.
21:38Yeah, that's true. And also, when you're
21:40cutting, aren't you sort of also
21:42discovering the rhythm? Because I would
21:45think that the way the actor is or
21:47whatever is going to contribute to it
21:51how you think the rhythm should be. And
21:53does that ever come in conflict with a
21:56camera move that was done on the day,
21:58but it's not fitting into that? Yeah,
22:02what's the balance between working with
22:04storyboards and then and then
22:07and flexibility in the edit? You want to
22:10be able to have something organic happen
22:13when you put it together. I I always I
22:16always feel like
22:18I mean, I go back to Chazelle. I mean,
22:19he pre-plans so many
22:22everything so well, but that's never
22:26intended to be the end of the journey
22:28the end of our filmmaking journey, you
22:30know, I know that's that's almost like,
22:32you know, a starting point. So, when he
22:33cut after he finished the shooting, when
22:35he comes in to edit with me, that really
22:37is a starting point. So, even if I've
22:39even if I've nailed the storyboards or
22:41if there's an animatic in the case of
22:43something more complicated, if I've
22:46nailed that and got that perfect to
22:48match, which I never do, by the way. I
22:50always screw it up and make it do it
22:52wrong or something. But, on occasion, if
22:54I get close or do it, that really is
22:56only a starting point. And and then it
22:58really does come down to performances
23:00and what are the best moments? And and
23:02this makes me think of something
23:05you know, the idea of a one-er and of
23:07course we had some of those in La La
23:08Land and Roger and James I know you 1917
23:13for example, you know, I know enough to
23:15know that it wasn't as simple as top and
23:19tailing it and putting those end to end.
23:21I know there's so much more that goes
23:23into it in the post process but of
23:25course in the design process because I
23:28remember hearing a lot of editors talk
23:30about 1917 and of course when they don't
23:33really think too deeply when people
23:34don't think too deeply about it they
23:35think well, that was all just one
23:38choreographed thing and nothing there's
23:40nothing added in post and that's all you
23:42know, and I think about La La Land where
23:45the the opening of the movie was
23:47designed as these four interlocking
23:49pieces that were supposed to with
23:51digital stitches were supposed to look
23:52like one unbroken thing.
23:54And long story short it didn't work the
23:58way it was designed or didn't work as
24:00well as it was designed.
24:03So much so that we cut it out of the
24:04movie for months. So there was no
24:07traffic musical number at the beginning
24:08of the movie. We even previewed it once
24:11without the traffic musical number. And
24:14that really upset the balance of the
24:16movie because the next the first time a
24:19musical number happened was maybe 15
24:21minutes in which was which I think was
24:23jarring for audiences test audiences but
24:26anyways we were able to put it back in
24:28because we we realized that the opening
24:32of the first piece was a wide shot of
24:35the traffic and the freeway receding off
24:38into infinity a wide shot and we
24:40realized that if there was a way that we
24:42could take part number one
24:44and actually take it off the front and
24:46join it to the end of part number four
24:50that maybe that actually would tell a
24:51better story. So we we took something
24:53that was designed you know in a certain
24:55way part one part two, part three, part
24:57four, and we basically rearranged it.
25:00And with the help of the effects to join
25:03the end of part four to the end of part
25:06one, we were able to change the order of
25:08it. So, I always think of that just in
25:10terms of in the editing room,
25:13there's always something you can do. And
25:15and I always like to remember that as a
25:17way sometimes you have to think outside
25:18of the box. Even something as
25:20pre-planned as, you know, we're going to
25:22we're going to do all this in camera or
25:24we're going to do this is going to look
25:26like one shot and you can't do anything.
25:28I try to I try not to limit myself with
25:31with those thoughts, if that makes
25:34sense. Mhm. I think
25:35Yes.
25:36that's all well and good today, but it
25:38wouldn't have been able to do that in
25:39the past before digital technology. Um
25:43you think of Hitchcock's Rope where they
25:45kind of make a a one-shot movie. Right.
25:48And
25:49what what we did I said we with Joel and
25:51Ethan a lot of the time we would
25:54do exactly actually what we did on 1917,
25:57which would like be passing a figure or
25:59passing a tree or doing a little whip
26:01pan or or something very simple that we
26:05could match the cut.
26:07And yeah, those those are the sort of
26:09tricks you use, but but tell me, is it
26:13do you prefer having coverage say in
26:16that dance sequence on La La Land? It
26:19was basically shot to be one specific
26:22thing. I Yes.
26:23can't imagine you I'm sure you didn't
26:24have close-ups of the same action or
26:27something you could go back and forth
26:28to. So, do you find you're restricted
26:31when when you don't have that? It's also
26:33difficult to cut in the middle of a
26:35move. I mean, it is a a jolt. Yeah, I I
26:39think you know, it's funny when
26:41something is really, in my experience,
26:43when something's designed a certain way,
26:46you know, like like that opening traffic
26:48number really had
26:51had take after take, but it really was
26:53that same shot they were trying to nail.
26:55Or that that scene on at the top of
26:58Griffith Park, the dance number between
27:00Ryan and Emma, which truly was a one-er.
27:04I can't remember what take, but it was
27:05shot over two nights. When something's
27:07designed there was there was no coverage
27:08for that, which I think it freaked out
27:11some people at the studio.
27:14Um but
27:15but when something's really designed
27:17like that, I don't miss the cover or my
27:20I haven't missed the coverage and maybe
27:21that a lot of big part of that is
27:23I've I've worked with I've been lucky to
27:26work with directors who are able to push
27:29to get the take that they want. They're
27:31able to kind of they don't leave until
27:33they've got it. And and I know that's
27:35not always the case. I've just been
27:36lucky to to work with those filmmakers
27:39who are able to do that. I feel like
27:42you know, the coverage part of things is
27:45is something where that remind makes me
27:47think of movies where I've come in after
27:49the fact and I'm really trying to make
27:52something work
27:53later after some people have had a go at
27:56it and I'm you know, that's that's where
27:59I'm I'm sometimes because maybe part of
28:01it is I see a scene that I don't know
28:04that there was a vision for it or maybe
28:07the vision was was a little more maybe
28:09it was even well-intentioned but rushed.
28:12You know, I think sometimes musical
28:15numbers are are susceptible to that. In
28:18other words, they're susceptible to you
28:20know, schedule and and let's shoot a lot
28:23of cameras and let's kind of you know,
28:25for lack of a better way of putting it,
28:27let's hose it down. So, I feel like
28:29stylistically that's a whole different
28:31thing and yeah, I I often miss the
28:34vision or I miss the the filmmaker's
28:36point of view in those cases. But again,
28:39sometimes
28:40that's all you have. I don't know. I
28:42would take a strong vision any day over
28:45over mountains of coverage.
28:46Are you ever brought in on the set
28:50for a couple days? Yeah, not I had not
28:54in my experience. I mean, I think when I
28:56don't think that works. I really don't.
28:58Cuz the editor should be the person
29:00that's away from the set and seeing it
29:04fresh. A lot of editors we've worked
29:06with prefer
29:08not to watch dailies with me because
29:11they want to see it without knowing what
29:13happened on the set.
29:15And and I think that's really valuable
29:17cuz you're really judging what it is.
29:20They want to be able to take out that
29:22long tracking shot that you did to
29:24establish something that took six hours
29:27in the rain
29:28and it's gone forever.
29:31I'm always happy to come on set, but no
29:32one's really wanting me on set and
29:34nobody is inviting me. So, I think the
29:36only difference may have been Bond
29:39where, you know, there was also where
29:41they were often because of the nature of
29:43Bond shooting multiple units. You're
29:46you're often matching into things and
29:47so,
29:48you know, I remember going on set not
29:51really not really helping not directly
29:54saying I think you should shoot this.
29:56Not in my experience, but but more just
29:58kind of putting cuts together and
30:00showing the director, reviewing it with
30:02the director and the DP and saying,
30:03"Here's what I have. What do you think?
30:05You know, what this is this is this is
30:07here for you as a reference for you."
30:09Have you been in a situation where the
30:12cinematographer comes in and sees a cut
30:16and allows them to have an input? I
30:19think it's the movies I've worked on
30:21it's usually if the cinematographer what
30:23comes to mind is Linus and
30:26Cary Fukunaga on Bond. I mean, sometimes
30:28they'd come in together to look at
30:30something and then they would have their
30:31own conversation about it. And so often
30:35I I feel like I'm
30:37I'm happy to just present in a way and
30:40and let that be hopefully a conversation
30:42starter. And then they can talk about
30:45what they think they need. I mean that's
30:47the thing as an editor is often I feel
30:48like I'm very I can't help but be
30:51reactionary. I don't really want to
30:54I have my tastes in movies and art and
30:57music, but I don't really
31:00I guess I'm I like to be careful about
31:01imposing, you know, something that I
31:04think should be.
31:05I don't want to I don't want that to get
31:07in the way of maybe what the filmmakers
31:09have in mind. Um I'd certainly I long to
31:11be asked, but I don't like to say, "Hey,
31:13I think you should shoot your your
31:16musical sequence like this." If I'm
31:18asked, you know, I I might have an
31:20opinion just to talk about it, but and
31:22it seems goes with the cutting as I I I
31:25I tend to follow the film. I like to
31:28follow the film and that is to say
31:29follow the performances as well. I don't
31:32like to I never like I never feel
31:34comfortable knowing that I'm imposing
31:36something.
31:37But don't you have like the first cut? I
31:40mean you got directors on the set with
31:42it with us.
31:44And then you're cutting and then they
31:47come in and change it or not, but you
31:50have your point of view that way.
31:53A little bit. I you know, this is a very
31:56it's you bring up an interesting thing
31:57because traditionally what we first do
32:00is refer often referred to as an
32:02assembly, which I never like to say cuz
32:04usually
32:05um we I like to present something that I
32:07think is better than an assembly. But I
32:09also am not as comfortable saying it's
32:12an editor's cut, which is a common thing
32:14traditional thing to say because
32:17I am following for I call it a first
32:20cut. And I'm following what's in the
32:22script. I want to show the director what
32:26was scripted and what was as far as I
32:28can tell what was intended or what he or
32:31she intended. And in that regard it's
32:34not really fully my cut, you know,
32:37because I It's still my cut there's a
32:40difference. Some editors will
32:42they'll get they'll talk to the director
32:43and get permission. Let me take this
32:45scene out cuz I don't think it works or
32:47sometimes they'll just take it out. I
32:50don't like to do that. I like to present
32:53what was scripted as scripted cut. So I
32:55ended calling it kind of the first cut.
32:57I think that that makes sense because
33:00we're shooting on the set with an idea
33:02and we're shooting
33:05something that we think fits together.
33:07So then if there's no thought of trying
33:10to make that work, you can go in a
33:13completely different direction in
33:15cutting. I mean, we've seen that before.
33:18We We were shooting one thing that we
33:20thought worked that way,
33:22but somehow the information didn't get
33:25through and it ended up being cut in a
33:27completely different way and we would
33:29have shot it a different way had we
33:30known that that was going to be the
33:32vision for it.
33:34So I think it's good to try and follow
33:37what the filmmakers were thinking they
33:39were doing.
33:39I think because I think if you don't, I
33:41mean, I think there's always a question.
33:43I think then the filmmakers always have
33:46a question about, you know, what about
33:48the thing that I had in my head? Why,
33:52you know,
33:53why didn't you do that? And because I I
33:55don't I think it's it's It would be
33:57presumptuous of me to assume that I'm
33:59correct and that the cut that I'm doing,
34:02my idea is going to hit it out of the
34:04park and of course everyone Of course
34:05the director is going to see it's so
34:07obvious, but I don't I think that'd be
34:09really presumptuous. So um there are
34:12times again where I've I'm asked to, you
34:15know, I'm encouraged to show my vision
34:17of things or
34:19a lot of times I'm I'm brought on to a
34:21film again, you know, if it's a music
34:23related movie, which I get a lot of
34:25calls about, to help someone people will
34:27say, you know, even though the scene is
34:29cut, let's can you do a version of it
34:32where you just kind of kick the it's
34:34like kicking the tires I guess in a way
34:36and that's always nice to do. I mean
34:39it's interesting having worked again on
34:41a lot of movies with musical numbers and
34:44musical sequences. They use that usually
34:46involves camera movement and of some
34:49sort and I always you know, I always go
34:53back to
34:55experiences I've had with Chazelle in a
34:57way where cuz he usually designs when
35:00maybe with the exception of some
35:02sequences in First Man which were
35:03intended to be very documentary like he
35:07pre-plans everything. So in my head when
35:09I get footage that's not that's about
35:11other filmmakers and and maybe there's
35:14no overt vision for it but it's it's
35:16almost like how do we how do you feature
35:19you know, how do you how do you make
35:20this feature the performances and the
35:22choreography in the best way? I try to
35:25cut it you know, there's a way in which
35:27editing you want to give at very least
35:30give the illusion of a vision or give
35:32the illusion that there was an
35:34intention. So in the case of musical
35:37number with with um
35:39you know, with camera moves and stuff,
35:41you know, I don't like to keep going
35:43back to the same type of same shots to
35:46make it seem like we're going back to
35:47the well. Save the shots so that when
35:50you when you hit a certain downbeat,
35:52let's let me try to cut it in a way so
35:53it feels like the shot that we're seeing
35:56on this downbeat was only meant for this
35:59downbeat. If there's it was not meant
36:01for anything else. This is this is a
36:03singular moment even if it wasn't you
36:06know. But that's that's that's where I
36:08get more from you know, from you know,
36:11Chazelle or or working on Greatest
36:13Showman where there were visions really
36:15behind these musical numbers where they
36:18were planned to be to to feature a
36:20certain part of
36:22a certain shot. You know, and and maybe
36:24that's maybe that's a little bit like
36:27and I've only heard stories about this,
36:29but maybe the differences between the
36:31way fight sequences were shot in Raging
36:33Bull versus the way they were shot in
36:35Rocky. And you know, Rocky, you know, I
36:38remember reading that it was that it was
36:40a a choreographed like a dance, but shot
36:44with multiple cameras versus you know,
36:47Raging Bull. And that's not to say one
36:49is better than the other, but it's just
36:50different. Well,
36:53let me say one is better than the other,
36:55but I mean I I liken it to when I was
36:58shooting
36:59I might like one better than the other,
37:00but you know, that's neither here nor
37:02there.
37:02I liken it to when when you're shooting
37:04a rock concert or something live, you've
37:06got multiple cameras, yeah, and you've
37:07got specific angles on the performers or
37:10the drummer or whatever you want to
37:13Yeah. Uh you want the hands on the
37:15guitar, whatever. You you need certain
37:17things you know you're doing it. But
37:19that you're basically spraying it with
37:21coverage. You're actually recording
37:23something Which is where the editor's
37:25making Right. the final thing out of it.
37:28But I was always surprised
37:31working with the Coen brothers on
37:34first on Barton Fink and the last time
37:36on Hail Caesar. I mean, on Barton Fink
37:40they shot maybe three shots that were
37:42never in the movie and they would only
37:45shoot exactly what they wanted. They
37:47would shoot the camera move exactly as
37:49the point they wanted and you would stop
37:52when they didn't need that shot anymore.
37:54And the same They did the same thing on
37:56Hail Caesar when we did the dance
37:57sequences and that is a very very
38:00different way of working. But I I'm
38:02interested in how
38:04the camera is being used to reflect the
38:07story. If you're one doing it in
38:10coverage or the other is you're very
38:12specific in where you want to
38:15punctuate it with a move in or you know,
38:18whatever. Ed, what have you done? I
38:20mean, I you I most of the work you've
38:23done have been with directors that have
38:25storyboarded have pre
38:28pre-visualized the the films, have they?
38:30Not at all.
38:32I mean,
38:33no, I will say Todd is the most prepared
38:37director I've worked He has a shot list
38:40for every shot that he goes through.
38:43But, when we're on the set,
38:45I've got him to be more open to be in
38:48the moment. So, we have sweet But, it's
38:51something we can fall back to,
38:53but he's much more open in the moment. I
38:56think that started with I'm not there,
38:58where he could see a performance, he
39:01can't just say specifically where the
39:03camera can be, you know, you have to be
39:05in the moment with the camera.
39:08But, then someone like Pablo Larraín,
39:11he's in the moment with the shot. He
39:14doesn't come I don't even know what he
39:16wants. I I pre-light the set, and then
39:19he comes in the morning Basically, this
39:21is an interesting thing, too, about how
39:24we've changed how maybe we light. I now
39:27light the space of the set, and then let
39:30the action happen in that space, rather
39:33than the way we used to do it maybe more
39:36where it was more specific shot by shot.
39:40But, I I
39:41I I thought maybe this is diversion.
39:43There's a shot in Prisoner that I it
39:45just is always in my mind. I it was
39:49maybe scripted or you found I mentioned
39:51it to James.
39:53Found it there.
39:54It's it's one of those kind of
39:56metaphysical experiences that you
39:59captured, and it's just that slow moving
40:03to the tree.
40:06Unmotivated.
40:08Where did that come from? every emotion
40:11about the mystery of that story.
40:15Could could you say that was something
40:17you found or that was scripted? Yeah,
40:20it's something we found but I wouldn't
40:22say it wasn't motivated because it was
40:25motivated by the feeling in the script
40:28that the feeling you're trying to give
40:30to the audience about that moment in the
40:32story. So it's like when you decide to
40:36do
40:37cross
40:38you know, push into a character.
40:41Uh when you when you decide to do a pull
40:44back or even when you want to
40:46Right. be on a wide shot and play the
40:48whole thing on a wide shot.
40:50a tree a tree I know but I'm not
40:53the tree what some part isn't what
40:56character in the film. You're you
40:58couldn't Yeah.
40:59Well, yeah, but but that I liken that to
41:02Joel and Ethan tracking up to the
41:04wallpaper falling off the wall in Barton
41:06Fink, you know. Maybe that was a little
41:08bit more of a story point than the tree
41:10but even so
41:11But I mean was that scripted or is that
41:13something you suggested? No, it was not
41:16scripted. It was on the day. It was
41:18something Danny suggested in in the
41:21morning as we were shooting. He wanted
41:23something just to sort of give the
41:24feeling of this that that
41:27somebody observing the house and the
41:28threat to it. He he suggested it in the
41:31afternoon. We were we were behind
41:34schedule. The producers were not happy
41:37but he wanted that shot and at the time
41:39I'm sure somebody said no but he you'll
41:41never use that.
41:43Now everybody see it in the cut. Oh my
41:45god. Maybe it doesn't work because
41:47everybody talks about it and it doesn't
41:49just sort of seamlessly fit with the
41:51rest. No, it's a great.
41:53What? Like a good sunset.
41:55it's incongruous.
41:57I I think you're really using camera
41:59movement to
42:00to do that. The opinion of what
42:02cinematography or images are about it
42:05can be in a story. That that's what I
42:08love about it is that it's
42:10Yeah.
42:11It's an abstract But as director,
42:13there's a director Denis Villeneuve,
42:15right, who will play a character out of
42:17focus or he'll play somebody in total
42:20silhouette or he'll play like the
42:21introduction of Jake in that film is a
42:24tracking into the back of his head.
42:26Yeah.
42:27In a restaurant. I mean, he'll do that.
42:29I mean, you set that shot up with some
42:32actors and I
42:33won't mention one in particular we did
42:35it with. Said, "Why are you on the back
42:37of my head?"
42:38When you've got all this stuff to go
42:40through. Well, you you do something else
42:44that's so interesting is is select focus
42:47like you did it in Empire of Light in
42:50the office, I think.
42:51Right.
42:52Where you make that choice. Now, is that
42:54something you have to convince the
42:56director because that's something that
42:58you do? I've never seen a director say,
43:01you know, as a point of Right. Well,
43:03it's a collaboration, though. I mean,
43:05with Sam, you know, every film that I've
43:08worked I've worked on with Sam was kind
43:10of quite different especially in terms
43:12of
43:13the kind of style of the camera cuz like
43:15Jarhead was totally handheld.
43:18And it and and and and then
43:20Revolutionary Road was quite Douglas
43:22Sirk, frankly. And then
43:25Skyfall was kind of a mess. Skyfall
43:27wasn't a traditional Bond movie because
43:29we shortlisted everything. But then we
43:32also shot some scenes with multiple
43:34cameras. One scene with like 11 cameras,
43:36even. But most of it was single stunt,
43:39yeah. Yeah, so you know, that that was
43:42He shoots very
43:44specifically for the scene. So, um
43:47Yeah, it's collaboration, really. Tom,
43:49you were going to say something.
43:50to just the the No, no, no, no. The the
43:54the
43:54what you brought up at the the tree, I
43:57mean, it there's there's a
43:59I think of
44:01something, you know, omniscient
44:03storytelling, you know, it's it's almost
44:04like that's where the filmmaker it's
44:06almost like the filmmaker point of view
44:08comes in but it isn't necessarily the
44:09filmmaker but there's something about
44:11the camera knowing or the camera seeing
44:14cuz sometimes something is a character's
44:15point of view a character in the film
44:18and other times it's it's less clear and
44:21you know something that always had so
44:23much impact for me is at the beginning
44:26of Sicario when they discover the bodies
44:29in the walls there are these shots that
44:33um these push-ins on these on the
44:35corpses on in the you know their heads
44:38covered in plastic bags it's it's really
44:40grotesque it's horrifying and the way
44:43you shot it the way the way Joe Walker
44:45cut it it's really impactful and I feel
44:48like it almost reminds me of something
44:51Hitchcock would do at the beginning of a
44:53movie set up by killing someone in
44:55Psycho or something like that you know
44:57that's something that that those images
44:59inform the rest of the story the rest of
45:02the film and so it's like an unflinching
45:05camera move into the face of this corpse
45:07which is so horrific you bring that as a
45:10viewer you bring that with you for the
45:13rest of the movie and you're and I
45:14remember just being
45:16on the edge of my seat when am I going
45:18to encounter something as horrific or
45:20more horrific than that it plants it in
45:23my head but in terms of
45:26you know I mean that could easily have
45:27just been a locked off shot a cutaway
45:31could have been you know and shot any
45:33number of number of ways locked off what
45:36was the what was the I mean maybe you
45:38did shoot that as well as coverage I'm
45:40not sure but I'm just curious about you
45:43know that that
45:44those some of those moves that go in and
45:46then obviously embellished with that
45:49score that had amazing visceral score by
45:52Jóhann Jóhannsson I get it all all
45:54storyboarded but um but as I said you
45:57you either storyboard or shot list and
45:59then you find things on the day that was
46:01very much storyboarding, but we probably
46:03shot the beginning of the camera move
46:05and the end of the camera move just in
46:07case it worked better as a close a
46:09static shot.
46:10You know. Right.
46:11But um
46:12I mean, getting back to the tree and
46:14stuff like that, I kind of always refer
46:16to
46:17filmmakers I really admire and most of
46:19them are European. And they don't Andrei
46:22Tarkovsky, you know, the way he would
46:25show you a shot of something you didn't
46:27feel relevant at all. But somehow
46:29emotionally it did have a relevance.
46:32You know what I mean? And I I I don't I
46:35don't see that so much in American Well,
46:37it's it's having the the the strength to
46:41be able to
46:42go to a shot that you don't think is
46:44relevant, but then staying with it or
46:47pushing into it makes you uneasy because
46:50you don't understand why it's there. And
46:52so it works.
46:53you know what I bring it back to is I
46:56think our scripts are based on like 19th
47:00century literature. And in fact, the way
47:04scripts are written in Europe, the ones
47:06I've read, are totally different than
47:08the one Our scripts are written purely
47:10on dialogue. And when you read a script
47:13from Herzog or Bertolucci or Godard,
47:17it's visual. It's it's about images.
47:20It's about an idea. It's not all put
47:23together because of the dialogue.
47:26And I think that makes a big difference.
47:29I think Europe and England have a
47:32history of visual culture that they
47:35trust images to convey the ideas. And I
47:39don't think we we trust images. I've I
47:43thought even in documentaries, this
47:45documentary I did Say Amen Somebody
47:47about gospel music. And there was one
47:50scene where a Dr. Dorsey goes out back
47:54and he's talking to the birds. And he's
47:57got his hands up, and
47:59and you can't explain what that image is
48:01about, and I fought with the director
48:03and said, "You have to
48:05leave that shot in. It doesn't maybe
48:08mean anything specific, but it means
48:10everything."
48:12And he did, but I it there's always
48:15seems like that in films that I've
48:17worked on that I always feel I have to
48:19fight for because it didn't further the
48:22stories, you know,
48:25narrative. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
48:27they they Well, it's interesting. We've
48:29been We've been watching some film noir
48:31lately. Mhm. And you know, I I'm
48:34thinking in particular of The Asphalt
48:36Jungle or On Dangerous Ground. Mhm. And
48:39the shots in that that are not strictly
48:42for, you know, pushing the narrative
48:44forward. They're very much about
48:46creating the atmosphere and tension.
48:49If not tracking into a tree, but
48:50something similar, you know.
48:53And and it and and you can see where
48:55like somebody like Jean-Pierre Melville
48:58took that American style of shooting and
49:02utilized it in Army of Shadows or Le
49:04Doulos or whatever, you know. Right.
49:07Totally money.
49:08But it doesn't seem to me that there's
49:10many American filmmakers taking
49:14what they used to do, taking back from
49:17Europe and and and
49:19you know, Russian cinema or like like
49:22they used to.
49:23I agree. Well, maybe it might I don't
49:26know if some of it is also that
49:28you know, maybe a lot of American
49:29filmmakers had to kind of I don't know,
49:32there's some there's something one foot
49:33in in in in something that's very
49:35populist. And so, in terms of, you know,
49:38dialogue, is it something where where a
49:41lot of Hollywood storytelling for
49:43decades and decades and decades, you
49:45know, our stories are told a certain
49:46way, often through dialogue, often with
49:49with scripted dialogue. Is it something
49:51where
49:52uh I wonder where, you know, that's just
49:55ingrained in a lot of the storytelling
49:57and so there's there's people can't help
50:00but have at least one foot in there if
50:02not both feet. But I I think of another
50:07camera move that I think about is that
50:10hallway shot in Taxi Driver where
50:13where Robert De Niro, Travis Bickle, is
50:15on the phone on a payphone um next to a
50:18long hallway and he's he's trying to
50:21reach Cybill Shepherd's character and
50:25she's kind of walked out on him and
50:26it's, you know, it's it's the letdown,
50:29you know, it's the phone call where he's
50:30so desperate and the camera he's on the
50:32phone and it's really kind of a nothing
50:34phone conversation, but the camera just
50:37picks up and, you know, just slides over
50:39if I remember, pans over and leaves him
50:41and it's almost like a
50:43the camera's almost being empathetic to
50:46to him, to that character because it's
50:48almost too painful to observe and so
50:50that's something where it's not it's not
50:53any character in the movie their point
50:56of view, but it's it's something else.
50:58It's some some omniscient narrator. I
51:00don't even think of what it is. It's
51:02just a feeling, you know? And in that
51:04moment it it is like this weird it's
51:06like an empathetic I read it as
51:08empathetic camera move cuz it's just too
51:11painful to see that character
51:14be let down and to to, you know, be
51:16heartbroken or or awkward or whatever it
51:20is. I read it as that. It could also be
51:22read as it's it's not empathetic, but
51:25it's more like I'm we're not even going
51:27to spend time with this person because
51:29he's this human doesn't deserve the
51:31screen time, so we're going to move over
51:33here. But I I do feel like they're
51:37you know, I I enjoy I enjoy when the
51:40camera does things like that, but again
51:42it's it's it always feels like it should
51:44be emotional. It can't just be something
51:47on the surface, you know?
51:49But again, I you know, I think some of
51:51those things draw our attention because
51:53what's come before has not been that,
51:56you know? And again, I I
51:58it comes down to kind of
52:00contrasts and when to when to do
52:03something different. I mean, Ed, I I
52:05think of, you know, I think there's the
52:07end of Carol where Rooney Mara's
52:10character is trying to
52:12follow she's she's running after Cate
52:15Blanchett's character. I think they're
52:16going they're they're she knows that
52:18Cate Blanchett is I think at the Plaza
52:20Hotel in the Oak Room or something like
52:22that. And so she she goes to find her
52:24and then we have a moment, you know, a
52:26scene where she sees Cate Blanchett from
52:29across the room. Cate is at sitting at a
52:31table. And then it's played I think it's
52:34handheld, but it's in I think it's in
52:36slow motion. It's very beautiful and
52:38very there's something very dreamlike.
52:41And then she starts approaching the
52:44table and we're pulling with Rooney Mara
52:46and there's kind of a a shot countershot
52:49where we we intercut with her point of
52:51view of moving closer and closer to the
52:53table where Cate Blanchett um looks up
52:56and sees her. And what I found
52:58extraordinary about that is that I don't
53:01remember anything like that in terms of
53:04the camera movement. It's very subtle,
53:06very elegant, but I don't remember
53:07anything like that before. And it's
53:09almost like you saved it for for that
53:12Yeah. for that moment. I thought it was
53:14very effective. Yeah, that that was an
53:16interesting
53:18compromise.
53:19Because Todd asked, "Why don't we do
53:22this handheld?" And I didn't think
53:24handheld was right. It Yeah, I
53:26understood what he wanted, you know, the
53:28emotion of it. So I said, "Well, let me
53:31put him on the dolly track." So it was
53:34actually on a dolly,
53:37but he handheld it. So most of the
53:40movement was off of the dolly, but you
53:44still felt someone behind the camera, so
53:48it was enough but not too much.
53:51And I think it And then also we did over
53:54crank it slightly.
53:56It was incredibly effective because to
53:59me, again, what came before was so
54:02measured and so um
54:05disciplined so that when you got to this
54:07moment, you really I I really felt like
54:09the character were stepping out onto a
54:11tightrope, which is how it felt like the
54:13character were supposed to feel. We're
54:14going We're We're embarking in
54:17emotionally new territory. We haven't
54:19been here yet. We don't know what's
54:21going to happen, and I feel like that
54:23subtle camera movement on both shots, on
54:26the pulling and and and the POV, really
54:29emphasized that in a way I thought was
54:31really effective.
54:33Very powerful. A film that we looked at
54:35was A Place in the Sun by the director
54:38George Stevens, who was the producer,
54:40screenwriter, cinematographer, and
54:42director at the time.
54:44He had made films like A Place in the
54:46Sun, Shane, Giant. And he was at the top
54:49of his game, but what's really
54:51interesting is
54:53in the extras,
54:56they talk about how he would shoot
54:58his scenes through
55:00each character and their point of view
55:04and only decide in the editing room how
55:07the story would be told from what
55:09character.
55:11And only at the end maybe he would cut
55:14to a reaction shot of somebody else in
55:16the scene.
55:17do that today. No, I was thinking we had
55:19the luxury of, you know.
55:20Yeah.
55:22But it actually opened up the whole idea
55:25of how you could use the camera to tell
55:27the story
55:28and be effective in that kind of
55:30minimalistic way.
55:33Do you find like a case like that, a
55:36director shot five different camera
55:38angles, but he's only used one. Have you
55:41Do you find there's a pressure from a
55:44studio to use coverage if if a director
55:47shot close-ups, but maybe says I don't
55:50want to use them? I mean, I remember
55:52Damien saying to us one time when we
55:54shot a scene in a big wide shot. I say,
55:56"Well, should we go in for over the
55:58shoulder and stuff?" He said, "No, if I
56:00do that, they might make me use it."
56:02Yeah. I Yeah, I mean, I personally don't
56:06really remember any anyone from the
56:09studio pushing or pressuring.
56:12I do, you know, it's interesting having
56:14worked on on movies with multiple
56:17editors on occasion. You sometimes
56:19what's amazing about that is you'll see
56:21how another editor might approach a
56:22scene, how they might cut it. And, you
56:25know, sometimes
56:27uh when I get it in my head that, you
56:29know, I think I think let's you know,
56:32let's pick a lane and
56:34let's let's let's only use the singles
56:36for this or something like that or keep
56:38it keep the language keep it simple like
56:41make a choice.
56:43You know, I might look at it that way
56:44and other editor might look at it
56:46differently and might say, you know, a
56:49dialogue scene between two characters
56:50gets very, you know, you got to you have
56:53to add you have to push some rhythm into
56:55it or or it gets some it gets boring.
56:58So, I want to cut to the two-shot. Let's
57:00cut out to the two-shot or now I think
57:03boring. Is the shot getting boring or
57:05the actual scene boring? Just cut the
57:07scene, for God's sake. I mean, how can
57:09how can a scene be boring because it's
57:11shot to the same? You go back to Robert
57:14Bresson. Yes. You know, if it's boring,
57:16it's boring. It's
57:18The shot's not going to make it less
57:20boring.
57:20right. That That's exactly. Well, and
57:22that's and that's where you get into
57:23different storytelling point of views.
57:25And And again, you know, something I got
57:27to I have to go back to Damien Chazelle
57:29when we did Whiplash and this we
57:31followed suit on some other
57:33movies, but Whiplash, you know, the
57:35whole like the whole sequence in
57:37Whiplash with the rushing and dragging,
57:40um there was
57:41it was a very modestly budgeted movie,
57:43low budget, so there wasn't a a ton of
57:46footage, but some scenes had a lot of
57:48footage, like the end had a lot of
57:49footage, but even the rushing and
57:51dragging I think it I think he had two
57:53cameras, but really, you know, he stuck
57:56to kind of the A camera, that was his
57:59design, and something I learned from him
58:01was the power of actually repeating
58:03something. So, the the point of the
58:07rushing and the dragging sequence was to
58:09was to build this anxiety within the
58:12audience that he's never going to get it
58:14right, and and the idea is every time
58:16you repeat it,
58:18the outcome is going to get worse the
58:19feeling is the outcome's going to get
58:21worse and worse. It's In other words,
58:22you're building suspense. And for
58:25Chazelle, you know, part of his strategy
58:27was
58:28to use the power of repetition. So,
58:31every time the idea was to go back to
58:34the same
58:35shot reverse shot. That was the point.
58:38If you started to break it up, you'd be
58:40letting the audience off off the hook in
58:42a way. And so,
58:44I don't know. So, I I learned a lot
58:46about the power of repetition. So, I I'm
58:49not always the one to
58:51uh you know, right or wrong. Sometimes
58:53I'm wrong, um but I'm not always the one
58:55to say, "Well, maybe, you know, should
58:57we spruce this up by cutting randomly to
58:59the two shot or or cut to the wide shot
59:02or something like that." When I see that
59:04in other cuts,
59:06um sometimes it drives me crazy cuz it
59:08just seems a little sort of like an
59:10empty empty exertion in a way. Yeah.
59:13Mhm. I mean, let's take back to
59:17my favorite director, Andrei Tarkovsky.
59:19I mean, whether you like his films or
59:21not, I personally love everything he
59:22did, but what he could do is build
59:25tension in a shot by holding it. And
59:27sometimes you would almost be
59:29consciously thinking, well, especially
59:32now having watched it, you know, be set
59:34in the culture we're set in in in
59:35America. You'd be thinking, why is he
59:38still holding this shot? And then it
59:40would become incredibly tense. And your
59:43expectation of what was going to happen
59:45next just by holding this big wide shot
59:48or just a very slow pan of a landscape
59:50like in Stalker or something. It's kind
59:52of quite amazing.
59:55I do feel that that maybe there's a
59:58pressure. Would it an audience accept
1:00:01that in America?
1:00:02I was just going to say
1:00:04I think you like what you say is
1:00:07gives the audience a chance to reflect.
1:00:11And and like in comedy, it's in the
1:00:14reaction shot generally that it's
1:00:16funnier
1:00:17than what what's said. But also in our
1:00:20storytelling, if it gives it
1:00:23an option for the audience to reflect on
1:00:26what they're looking at instead cutting
1:00:29away right away, you lose that. And I
1:00:32find a lot of times
1:00:34the editor and the director almost know
1:00:38the film too well at a certain point.
1:00:41And that last go around when they're
1:00:43going to make the
1:00:45length of the film, those moments go
1:00:48out.
1:00:50At least in my films I've seen that
1:00:53where oh, it just lasted another 4
1:00:55seconds and it was so beautiful. Now
1:00:58they cut it out because they didn't need
1:01:00it.
1:01:01But there is another reason to have it.
1:01:04Mhm. Yeah. I mean, how many times, well,
1:01:07I certainly have number of times kept
1:01:09the camera running after director said
1:01:11we cut.
1:01:12And sometimes they used it, too.
1:01:16Well, there are Yeah, there are times
1:01:17where as an editor I'll I'll you'll I'll
1:01:20want that. I'll I'll I'll need a little
1:01:22bit more, you know, or or I want to I
1:01:24want to steal I'll need a moment that
1:01:27maybe wasn't intended, but I can tell
1:01:29it's after it's before or after action
1:01:31or cut. Now we have ways of, you know,
1:01:35we can we slow shots down or we, you
1:01:38know, rock and roll them in reverse and
1:01:40forward and all the stuff to lengthen
1:01:42those things, but there's something
1:01:45Yeah, there's something organic about
1:01:47that which I I find that is is a helpful
1:01:49thing. But I also, you know, when you're
1:01:52talking about like the tension in a in a
1:01:55shot, you know, I think about I think
1:01:57about like 1917 or or, you know, or the
1:02:01classic one or, you know, Touch of Evil
1:02:03where it is
1:02:05it's not a static shot, but you are
1:02:09holding your breath as an audience
1:02:10member. There's there is a little bit of
1:02:12breath holding
1:02:14because you don't know where it's going
1:02:15to go and there's an urgency because it
1:02:17maybe because the shot's moving. You're
1:02:19made aware of of the journey that that
1:02:23you're on cinematically. You're made
1:02:24aware of the character's journey. We're
1:02:26going somewhere. I'm going somewhere
1:02:27with these characters. Where are we
1:02:29going to go? And depending on how you
1:02:31set it up narratively,
1:02:33the you know, the the elemental one is
1:02:35Touch of Evil where we we you set the
1:02:37setup is a is a bomb attached to a
1:02:40vehicle and now we're following. And so
1:02:43we're on this journey, but but I, you
1:02:45know, I also obviously 1917 comes to
1:02:48mind where you set the table a certain
1:02:50way and now we're on a journey with
1:02:53these two chara At first these two
1:02:55characters, eventually one character,
1:02:56but you're on this journey start to
1:02:58finish and there's there's
1:03:01I guess almost an illusion of honesty in
1:03:03that it's
1:03:05we must be seeing everything because
1:03:07we're with them the whole time.
1:03:09Right. How could we miss it?
1:03:11How could we miss it, you know? But um
1:03:14but that I'd be curious what your point
1:03:17of view, Roger James, like in terms of
1:03:19when you you know when that when that
1:03:21idea that concept came about, you know,
1:03:24what was what was in it for you in terms
1:03:27of what made sense to you emotionally
1:03:30with that challenge?
1:03:31Well,
1:03:32I mean I think it worked because
1:03:33obviously it's
1:03:34real-time sort of story, but I I do have
1:03:38questions whether
1:03:40the storytelling for the audience is it
1:03:43about the story of the or the experience
1:03:45you're giving them
1:03:47by by
1:03:49showing them a world with a single shot,
1:03:51you know, the same as Birdman or
1:03:53something. How much is it is it an
1:03:55experience not like a
1:03:57amusement arcade, but that you know that
1:03:59that that sort of idea that they're
1:04:03um But also it was approached as the
1:04:07story first, which was who do we want to
1:04:10be on on this particular line as
1:04:13forgetting that it's single camera and
1:04:15all of that. Do we want to see George
1:04:18when he's reacting to this or do we want
1:04:20to see Dean when he's saying it? So all
1:04:22of that stuff gets worked out first so
1:04:25then you can accommodate that and say,
1:04:27well, this is a time when we really
1:04:28should see both of them and I think that
1:04:31that made
1:04:33a big difference cuz we weren't just
1:04:34following them or pulling them
1:04:36willy-nilly. There was a reason to be
1:04:39wherever we were.
1:04:40Um so in a way it was definitely
1:04:44thinking about
1:04:46who to focus on ahead of time. I mean it
1:04:49was incredibly structured just like they
1:04:52would a the Coen brothers film. It was
1:04:54very very deliberately worked out
1:04:56exactly
1:04:57where the camera would be on each piece
1:04:59of the action. I mean it was only one
1:05:00scene which was
1:05:01Blake's death that we actually worked it
1:05:04with the camera on the day knowing what
1:05:06the beginning and the end was cuz we had
1:05:08to make match to what we'd shot or we're
1:05:10going to shoot.
1:05:11But I I still kind of wonder about the
1:05:15whole feeling of camera movement in
1:05:17general, and you know, Birdman and 1917
1:05:20probably being you know, the the ex-
1:05:23exemplary examples of this, but
1:05:26is is filmmaking becoming more of an
1:05:30experience than an actually emotional
1:05:32storytelling? That's that's where I I'm
1:05:35a bit
1:05:36unsure. Like a ride.
1:05:38Yeah, yeah, like a ride.
1:05:40I but you know It's funny. Paul Schrader
1:05:42said to me, "Hollywood makes amusement
1:05:45and uh roller coaster rides. That that
1:05:49that's that's part of the experience.
1:05:51They want someone to take this trip
1:05:54through uh
1:05:55a visceral level, and uh not not all
1:05:59stories need to be told that way. I'm
1:06:01not saying being pejorative and saying
1:06:04we shouldn't make those kind of films. I
1:06:06just don't want to work on them, you
1:06:08know, but it's just
1:06:11Yeah, but but but you know, when when
1:06:13Houston made Bread, Battle, and Courage,
1:06:15right? With all the camera moves and
1:06:17being totally engaged in the in the
1:06:19battle sequence, the studio didn't like
1:06:22it because it was too visceral.
1:06:24But, now probably they would want it to
1:06:26be that with you know, feeling of being
1:06:28in the battle and the experiencing the
1:06:32the horror of the war, that would be
1:06:33something the audience might warm to. I
1:06:35don't know.
1:06:37But, it's like you say, they do tend to
1:06:39rely too much on dialogue these days.
1:06:41So, um you might have a scene where he
1:06:44the character says, "I'm really scared."
1:06:46But, it actually hits you stronger if
1:06:49you
1:06:49see his reaction and see a tree blowing
1:06:53in the wind in the night. It's Right.
1:06:55And they don't trust that the I think
1:06:58the audience
1:06:59knows more than the people that make the
1:07:01decisions what they can look at, you
1:07:04know? The like you say, the studio, but
1:07:06they don't trust that will communicate
1:07:08the idea, but to me the whole point is
1:07:11that's what makes film different than
1:07:13reading a book or seeing a play. It's
1:07:16the images and obviously the editing is
1:07:20an extension of our photography. Our
1:07:22photography it doesn't really
1:07:26end up as our images until it's edited.
1:07:29It's the If you want to think of it,
1:07:31it's the gestalt of the whole
1:07:34thing. It's the editing with our images,
1:07:38with the performances that ultimately
1:07:40are the ultimate say of what we
1:07:43communicate with through film. But film
1:07:46the difference between film and all
1:07:47these other mediums, like I said, are
1:07:50the book the moving image. It's either
1:07:52static because it's 24 frames per
1:07:55second, so it's still moving. And Godard
1:07:58calls that the truth.
1:08:01I would now call it authenticity, not
1:08:04that we all know everybody's truth is
1:08:06subjective,
1:08:07but that's what we're left with.
1:08:10Yeah. Well, now we have Now we everyone
1:08:12has has a telephone that's capable of
1:08:14recording at 24 frames per second, so I
1:08:17guess that's that's some sort of truth
1:08:19there, too, or authenticity, I don't
1:08:21know. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I'm always
1:08:24inspired by by something visually. If it
1:08:27If I mean, I I love to work with sound,
1:08:29and that's obviously
1:08:31important. Some of my favorite films are
1:08:34movies that have amazing
1:08:36interesting sound in them, but um at the
1:08:38end of the day, visually, I always think
1:08:40of silent cinema, you know, that's
1:08:42something that you know, when I when I'm
1:08:45working on a scene or I'm lucky enough
1:08:47to get a sequence where it plays like a
1:08:49silent film, then I feel like I've then
1:08:52I feel like we're doing our job as
1:08:54storytellers because then I always feel
1:08:56like um you know, you just have the the
1:09:00the
1:09:00of appealing to a large, wider audience
1:09:03if it's playing more with visuals. Mhm.
1:09:06And in terms of camera movement and
1:09:08one-ers, having worked on movies with
1:09:10with one-ers, I think of Rope,
1:09:12Hitchcock's Rope, but you know, that in
1:09:15theory, you know, we we we know the
1:09:17trick behind that and the and the, you
1:09:19know, the 10-minute takes and the
1:09:21pre-planned transitions.
1:09:23Cutting points.
1:09:24points. So, in theory, there's no
1:09:26editing, but you know, really, if you
1:09:28looked at the mise-en-scène, you look at
1:09:30the way the shots are designed, like
1:09:311917, there's there is there is kind of
1:09:35emotional editing in it, you know,
1:09:37there's you're just not doing a
1:09:38shot-countershot, you know,
1:09:40like there's the camera, in the case of
1:09:42Rope, the camera will move in on a key
1:09:44prop, you know, to let you know this is
1:09:47important.
1:09:47Right.
1:09:48Um and we don't have to have a
1:09:49shot-countershot, or 1917, I it just
1:09:52what comes to mind is is a very minor
1:09:53thing, but it's it's, you know, it's
1:09:56Schofield and Blake going walking
1:09:58through an underground bunker, you know,
1:10:01uh barracks, and they walk past and they
1:10:05see, you know, they see a photo, you
1:10:06know, they're they're shining a torch or
1:10:08whatever, and they see a just a photo
1:10:09that's on on, you know, attached to a
1:10:11bunker, something like that, and that
1:10:14would be something that would rip in a
1:10:16different context or require a
1:10:17shot-countershot to show you that the
1:10:19character's looking at it, but it's
1:10:21really
1:10:22it's it's it's composed in a way that it
1:10:25that tells that story, and you don't
1:10:26need the cutting, you know. Mhm. And I I
1:10:29think with camera movement, it's
1:10:31something that should be thought about
1:10:34ahead of time, not just applied, because
1:10:37I think I see a lot of movies where the
1:10:39camera is constantly moving, and while
1:10:42it's kind of interesting, the swoop and
1:10:44going over and behind, but then it comes
1:10:47again and again, and I'm not Yeah. into
1:10:49the story anymore. But if you stop and
1:10:52you think, why? What what is this doing?
1:10:56And like you said about Carol why that
1:10:59movement really worked and have we done
1:11:02this before and
1:11:04I think it can be quite valuable when
1:11:07you try and think about it but it's
1:11:09sometimes I feel like people are just
1:11:11saying I saw some camera movement I
1:11:13really liked it let's just use it in the
1:11:15movie.
1:11:16Yeah or it's just like we're just going
1:11:17to shoot it with all this stuff and not
1:11:20choose a perspective cuz the other
1:11:22extreme is obviously La Jetee which is
1:11:24one of my favorite films where the
1:11:26camera never moves cuz they're still the
1:11:28photographs.
1:11:29right right. The stills except for one
1:11:31image which is a blinking eye.
1:11:34I mean it and it's
1:11:35it's an extraordinary piece of
1:11:36filmmaking so you don't have to have
1:11:39camera movement you just have a vision
1:11:41of the overall
1:11:42What they're what they're not doing is
1:11:44there even though it's camera movement
1:11:46you can edit in the camera movement so
1:11:49you're you're directing your audience to
1:11:51what you're experiencing and wanting
1:11:53them to see. They're not editing with it
1:11:56they're just using it as the movement.
1:11:59So it made me think in in the latest
1:12:02film Maria there's a steady cam shot
1:12:05where
1:12:06Aristotle
1:12:08Onassis meets Maria and the it is one of
1:12:12those shots that goes around but it's
1:12:15the whole story of how he takes her away
1:12:19from the husband Mhm. and so it Mhm. it
1:12:23does end up on something you know and
1:12:27that's Right. It's telling the move is
1:12:28telling a story.
1:12:29Yeah it's telling a story it's telling a
1:12:31story.
1:12:32the movement
1:12:34that's not furthering your story it's
1:12:37Right. Right it's the similar
1:12:40when we shot 1917 this the scene that we
1:12:43kind of constructed on the day was
1:12:45Blake's death and the idea
1:12:49of moving around doing a circling of the
1:12:52two characters
1:12:54for I mean, we went round three times, I
1:12:56think. I mean, initially, you think,
1:12:58well,
1:13:00is that proposal too extreme? Is that
1:13:02out of context with the rest of the
1:13:04film? But, to your point, Tom, at
1:13:07certain point, a certain move creates a
1:13:10certain feeling. If the whole of the
1:13:13film had been this circling movement and
1:13:15lots of tricky camera moves, it would
1:13:17have been
1:13:18probably one of the many things
1:13:20But, the fact of that moment, you get
1:13:22into this disorientated world, which
1:13:25reflects the two characters and the one
1:13:27character dying. That what is, you know,
1:13:30it's it's
1:13:31it's confused and it's uncertain for a
1:13:34purpose, isn't
1:13:36And what I what I love what I love about
1:13:381917 is that it's a movie of
1:13:43different visual tones, you know, not
1:13:46just in the exposure and the
1:13:47photography, but in the movement in
1:13:49particular, because there are moments
1:13:51where,
1:13:53the camera settles and you're very
1:13:55still. And you that's where the movement
1:13:58becomes imperceptible or or or
1:14:01invisible, and then we move again. So,
1:14:04it's not a movie that is constantly
1:14:07literally moving. It is a movie of
1:14:08contrast even within within this this
1:14:12challenge that you picked. There's
1:14:13definitely quite a number of times when
1:14:15the camera is virtually static.
1:14:17Virtually static and and you forget. I
1:14:20mean,
1:14:22you know, what what I think is
1:14:23good emotional storytelling is when it's
1:14:25moving, sometimes you forget, you just
1:14:27feel something, and then when it's
1:14:29still, you forget you forget about the
1:14:31camera, but you're you know, you're
1:14:33feeling something. I again, contrast, I
1:14:36mean, one of my favorite examples in
1:14:392001 a Space Odyssey is is a a movie
1:14:42that I think is such a beautiful
1:14:44meditation and it goes through its
1:14:48storytelling with a very deliberate and
1:14:50kind of
1:14:52languid pace, very slow.
1:14:55And then there comes that great moment,
1:14:57whatever, halfway through the movie
1:14:59where
1:15:00Gary Lockwood and Keir Dullea are going
1:15:02inside the pod and they close the the
1:15:04the doors and and he said, "He can't
1:15:07hear us now." And they start talking,
1:15:09and then it cuts to HAL's point of view,
1:15:13which is this rapid whip pan back and
1:15:16forth to show you the close-up. This is
1:15:18vignetted and it's kind of a close-up of
1:15:20the lips, but it's completely The
1:15:22movement is a completely different thing
1:15:25from what we've experienced for
1:15:27for like over, you know, an hour or
1:15:29something. And it's and and in that
1:15:31moment, you know, it becomes almost like
1:15:34a you know, the the the point of view is
1:15:36more human than the humans. You know,
1:15:38it's it's almost like it's almost like
1:15:40you feel the id, this childlike id of
1:15:43HAL,
1:15:44uh you know, where there's there's a
1:15:46It's almost like a neurotic pan back and
1:15:48forth, which I think, you know, having
1:15:51set up the movie, to me it's it's a
1:15:54wonderful, almost like joke that you set
1:15:57up the movie with a certain
1:15:59almost it's it's very observational in a
1:16:02lot of ways.
1:16:03The pace of it, the rhythm of it. And
1:16:05then, you know, you hit them with the
1:16:06point of view, which which then it says
1:16:08intermission, which I always think is
1:16:10one of the most electrifying
1:16:11intermissions in film history, you know?
1:16:14Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really. Really.
1:16:16It's interesting cuz Kubrick does
1:16:17something quite
1:16:19uh dynamic on on Dr. Strangelove, which
1:16:22is again very
1:16:24very measured the way it's shot.
1:16:26Yes. Long held wide shots, a lot about
1:16:28composition. But when it cuts to the
1:16:31attack on the actual base,
1:16:33it cuts out and it's all handheld and
1:16:36kind of grainy. Yeah.
1:16:39You think it would take you out of it,
1:16:40but it's not. It's almost like you're
1:16:43going to a piece of reportage about
1:16:46what's going on the outside of this
1:16:47surreal world that Sterling Hayden's in
1:16:50and Well, and that's interesting. You're
1:16:52right, it goes to very something really
1:16:54resembles a newsreel newsreel
1:16:56photography. And but what's funny is
1:16:59there's, you know, having seen that
1:17:01movie and also seen the similar movie
1:17:03Fail Safe, the the the Lumet picture.
1:17:07Similar topics, right? But treated very
1:17:09differently. And Dr. Strangelove, even
1:17:11though it's very it's very obviously
1:17:15set up and and there's there there is it
1:17:19contains artifice, of course, but
1:17:22there's something not just in that
1:17:25little firefight, but there's something
1:17:27with the rest of the movie that there's
1:17:29a naturalism, which almost suggests
1:17:31realism. And some of that has to do
1:17:33with, I think, the the way they lit the
1:17:35B-52 interior, but even in the other
1:17:37scenes there's there's a a
1:17:40at least the feeling of a naturalism.
1:17:42When you think of Fail Safe, I feel
1:17:45that, which I think I love the movie,
1:17:47it's very powerful, I feel the
1:17:48naturalism much less. It's in, you know,
1:17:51the in interior of the planes and stuff,
1:17:54it just feels very different.
1:17:56And I you know, there's there's a lot of
1:17:58things that contribute to it, but I
1:18:00think a lot of it has to do with the
1:18:01photography and that Kubrick was going
1:18:03for a feeling of natural light and
1:18:06dealing with light sources in a way that
1:18:08maybe give the illusion of more
1:18:10naturalism in a versus versus Fail Safe
1:18:13versus the other movie. So, I feel like
1:18:15maybe that's why that kind of verite
1:18:19newsreel footage kind of maybe fit in a
1:18:22little bit better or fit you don't
1:18:24really notice it because the whole the
1:18:26whole proceeding has a a feeling of
1:18:28being somewhat real life.
1:18:30I guess it comes down to sort of
1:18:32planning it ahead of time and figuring
1:18:35out what it is you're trying to do cuz
1:18:37if you just figure out oh every day
1:18:40let's find moves that work.
1:18:42Yeah, you can't imagine Kubrick sending
1:18:44a second unit out just to shoot some
1:18:46handheld shots of this basement.
1:18:49I'm sure he knew what he had in mind.
1:18:52And he would work with a very small crew
1:18:55and shoot endlessly.
1:18:58And reshoot and reshoot till he found
1:19:01it. Yeah. Do you wish you had the
1:19:03opportunity to do something like
1:19:04No, I don't.
1:19:05Or have you ever?
1:19:07Yeah. Well, I worked one director in
1:19:10Austria, Ulrich Seidl, and he shoots
1:19:14forever also. He in fact he used me in
1:19:17his Austrian camera because we couldn't
1:19:19always be available and he produces, you
1:19:22know, gets money and produces his own
1:19:25films and
1:19:26he shoots for 6-7 months a year on and
1:19:30off. And what he does is something like
1:19:34the French director, I'm really losing
1:19:36it.
1:19:38Abel Gance, not Abel Gance, well he did
1:19:41it too. Where he shoots and then they
1:19:44edit the scene and then they go back and
1:19:47shoot, they know where the story is
1:19:49going. With Ulrich, he has characters
1:19:52but he works off of the moment with the
1:19:55characters and then from there he tells
1:19:58the story through what's happening to
1:20:01the characters because he uses a lot of
1:20:04real people with
1:20:06actors. So he's having the actors play
1:20:09off of them.
1:20:11And that's really an interesting
1:20:13experience
1:20:15to work with him because until he's
1:20:17edited the scene do you go out and
1:20:19reshoot or shoot to sometimes you
1:20:22reshoot the scene four or five times
1:20:25until something happens.
1:20:26Oh my god.
1:20:27It's really like a documentary but it's
1:20:29in a narrative form.
1:20:31That sounds like that could be very
1:20:33Yeah, that could be if you could somehow
1:20:36do that. I I feel like it's always the
1:20:38idea of being able to go back and
1:20:40improve something or get something is a
1:20:42very intoxicating concept.
1:20:46Yeah. I'd still be shooting my first
1:20:48film if that was the
1:20:50Maybe maybe maybe some people don't want
1:20:52to do that, you know, but
1:20:54I can understand why, but um I mean
1:20:58Roger and James is there are there you
1:21:00know, are there moments where you know,
1:21:02you all did some plan something with
1:21:05camera with movement, but that
1:21:08by the nature of it, you know, or or by
1:21:11default you had to have coverage, you
1:21:13know, and then the end result was not
1:21:15what you
1:21:17had in mind or Can't can't really think
1:21:20of uh Yeah. Well, I think that we
1:21:24we actually
1:21:25we have shot something that we thought
1:21:27was
1:21:29wide and quiet, little figures in frame
1:21:33to to indicate isolation, and then have
1:21:37it cut a completely different way. Yeah.
1:21:40It's sort of sped up by cutting
1:21:43shorter cuts.
1:21:45And that was
1:21:46kind of Okay, well, if we had known that
1:21:49to start with, we would have shot it
1:21:51differently.
1:21:51Done something different. Yeah. Yeah. I
1:21:53think the most disappointing
1:21:56sequence was
1:21:58we had shot something in character's
1:22:00point of view and very close to the
1:22:02character in a
1:22:04dangerous situation.
1:22:06And the studio insisted we have some
1:22:09exterior shot wide shots to put the
1:22:12whole thing in context with the outside
1:22:14world. Right. And it suddenly took away
1:22:17the claustrophobia Right. and the the
1:22:20fear that this character was going
1:22:22through. Right.
1:22:23I'm not going to be specific about the
1:22:24scene for obvious but and I just think
1:22:27that's a lack of imagination and a lack
1:22:30of Yeah. It's kind of checking the boxes
1:22:33instead of seeing what you have in front
1:22:34of you because we saw the cut without
1:22:37the exterior and it was really powerful.
1:22:41And then when we saw it with the
1:22:42exterior, we were allowed to relax for a
1:22:44moment.
1:22:45to relax. Yeah. Like you said, Briony,
1:22:48it's producing eye candy and not in the
1:22:50service of the story and the emotional
1:22:53And there's a way that well, just that
1:22:55maybe you know, sometimes in those
1:22:56moments, you know, you when you're
1:22:59trying to set up a certain feeling or a
1:23:02suspense, you know, it's like a rubber
1:23:04band that you're pulling back and you
1:23:06know, maybe your camera's moving in on
1:23:08something and that's that's what you
1:23:10have in mind and when you you're letting
1:23:13the audience off the hook when you're
1:23:14cutting out to the wide or you're you're
1:23:16you're allowing them to reset, you know,
1:23:19in a way that I think is Yeah, I I I
1:23:22always have feelings about that, too.
1:23:24There's sometimes when I'm seeing
1:23:25something and I wish that, you know, I
1:23:27wish that it didn't, you know, my might
1:23:30get a directive to let's put this in or
1:23:32that and I always feel like you're
1:23:34breaking the spell, you know, I want to
1:23:36I want to always be conscious of not
1:23:37breaking the spell. Yeah. So
1:23:40It's like Major Tom in the spaceship,
1:23:43you know, you don't necessarily need all
1:23:45these wide shots of a spaceship circling
1:23:47the Earth. I mean You want to be with
1:23:50Major Tom. And I also think sometimes
1:23:52when you when you cut to something
1:23:55unexpected,
1:23:56like you cut to there's a person
1:23:59speaking but then you go to a cut and
1:24:01that person's out of focus or you're
1:24:04you're on somebody else, it doesn't
1:24:06allow the audience to be comfortable.
1:24:09Right.
1:24:09And they they have to stay involved and
1:24:12go why? What Why are we on this person?
1:24:14And it makes them a little uneasy and I
1:24:16think making people uneasy is sometimes
1:24:19a a thing. Absolutely. I always remember
1:24:22that film Das Boot, which was also a TV
1:24:25series, but that in the movie it's like
1:24:28you've got these incredible sequences
1:24:30inside this inside the submarine. And
1:24:32they rarely went outside. They did
1:24:34sometimes when it hit the bottom or
1:24:36whatever, but all the stuff inside, it
1:24:39was claustrophobic, but that's the whole
1:24:41point, wasn't it, you know?
1:24:43And if they pick they pick the moments
1:24:45recall it they pick the moments to go
1:24:47outside so you could kind of reset at
1:24:50the point where the storytellers where
1:24:52the director wanted to reset and then
1:24:54you go back in.
1:24:55Right. Yeah.
1:24:56Right. And then you'd have these endless
1:24:57tracking shots and everything where they
1:24:59didn't let you off the hook for ages.
1:25:01Right. Right. No, very effective. I
1:25:04mean, all that being said, I do remember
1:25:06some occasion to cutting a scene where a
1:25:11character's doing something,
1:25:13um, moving through space, which
1:25:15depending on what the story is and and
1:25:18the context, that can either be seen as
1:25:21shoe leather or it can be
1:25:24something it it can actually be very
1:25:27character building, you know, by
1:25:29watching this character move through
1:25:30space. And, um, I I can remember talking
1:25:34to the director Kasi Lemmons and and
1:25:36there was something, you know, I
1:25:37remember her commenting, "I sometimes I
1:25:39like to see characters walk through
1:25:41space." Which I appreciate, you know,
1:25:43because that's an extension of of their
1:25:45world at the right moment in the right
1:25:47context.
1:25:48Mhm. But I'm also remembering a time
1:25:51where, um, in order to jump into the
1:25:54action, in order to kind of grab the
1:25:56audience, I remember showing a character
1:25:59observing a character walking through
1:26:01space and then cutting right into a POV,
1:26:05moving into something. And you're not
1:26:07clear who's POV at the right away, but
1:26:09then you quickly figure it out and I
1:26:11find that I'm always kind of, um, often
1:26:15that those sort of cuts, uh, when I see
1:26:17them in movies and then when I do them
1:26:19sometimes can really grab me because all
1:26:22of a sudden I'm I'm in something. I'm in
1:26:24a point of view. I'm moving I'm hurtling
1:26:26towards something. What is that? I'm
1:26:28even if it's not fast I'm I'm I'm
1:26:30walking towards something. What is that?
1:26:31And then and then the thing is I'm
1:26:34waiting for the next shot or for the
1:26:37camera to do something. Tell me what I'm
1:26:39looking at which is always engaging to
1:26:41me, you know? So I'm always as an editor
1:26:43I'm always looking again and it has to
1:26:45do with the style of the movie and how
1:26:47you want to tell the story, but I always
1:26:49welcome those type of types of shots
1:26:51because I think they're very, you know,
1:26:53they're very engaging. Mhm.
1:26:56Yeah, I I think so
1:26:57it's the whole thing of rules were made
1:26:59to be broken because the rules are there
1:27:01to tell you
1:27:03why it works, but then
1:27:06certainly coming from a continuity
1:27:08viewpoint, you want to jump the line
1:27:10sometimes because people aren't aware
1:27:13why they're uncomfortable, but it works.
1:27:16Right. Right. Right.
1:27:18Yeah, I mean it's it's again you let the
1:27:21audience work towards the film or you
1:27:24just spoon-feed them.
1:27:27And more and more I see films that just
1:27:29want to spoon-feed them and the films
1:27:32that I'm interested is they make you
1:27:34work at what you're expressing.
1:27:38Yeah.
1:27:39Yeah, exactly.
1:27:41There's a lot of Hamburger Helper these
1:27:43days.
1:27:46That's one way of putting it.
1:27:47Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. It's it's it's
1:27:49true. Yeah.
1:27:51Wow. I think we've solved all the
1:27:53problems.
1:27:57I want to rewatch that now.
1:28:00It was Jacques Tati that shoots over a
1:28:02long period of time.
1:28:04Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But
1:28:06you know, sometimes I think that takes
1:28:08away from there there's something about
1:28:11being on the set and you only have that
1:28:12actor for that day and you only have the
1:28:14location for that day and we've just got
1:28:16to get it. Right.
1:28:17And there's something about that
1:28:18adrenaline
1:28:19and the time that makes it all pull
1:28:21together. If you're going to come back
1:28:23and do it again and again, how do you
1:28:24get that spontaneity? Tati's films were
1:28:26quite funny, but I mean they're very
1:28:28specific kind of kind of humor. They
1:28:31were they were their own ex- experience,
1:28:33weren't they? I mean it's very Yeah,
1:28:34weren't they? They're very special
1:28:35books. So, I can see why he went back,
1:28:38"Oh, that gag didn't work. I mean need
1:28:40to do this in different way, different
1:28:42piece of action."
1:28:43Allen Woody Allen works out
1:28:46he keeps his set up and they shoot three
1:28:48or four days because it's been explained
1:28:50to me, you know, that's way a comic
1:28:52works to see if their joke works. So,
1:28:55he's
1:28:56Right. We have one for it. I think I'd
1:28:58get very bored with that, but anyway.
1:29:01You know, what I also like is I really
1:29:03like when in a film they hold a shot too
1:29:06long.
1:29:07Mhm. Yeah, right.
1:29:08Because it makes you so uncomfortable.
1:29:10You think, "Okay, I got their reaction."
1:29:12But then they stay on them.
1:29:15When it's done well, I know it sometimes
1:29:17it's just ignorance, but when it's done
1:29:19well, it It's just screen time they
1:29:21need, yeah. Yeah, no. Well, they usually
1:29:23don't you know, on TV, you know. Three
1:29:25hours is enough for a movie. Right.
1:29:27Probably long held shots on TV these
1:29:29days, but it's nothing to do with the
1:29:32emotion of the film. But I like that. I
1:29:33mean Yeah, right. No, you're you're
1:29:36you're Yeah, you're right. You're kind
1:29:37of
1:29:38you know, you're holding on a shot for
1:29:40you know, for a length of time that is
1:29:42expected maybe
1:29:44and then the audience gets the
1:29:46information and then and then they're
1:29:48wondering why are we holding on it and
1:29:50then the hope as an editor is you you
1:29:53you nail the next opportunity to to know
1:29:56when to cut. In other words, you you
1:29:57don't want to be a little bit too long.
1:29:59You need it to be long enough so the
1:30:00audience knows to reinvest in in the
1:30:03image again, you know.
1:30:04So, that's It's bit of a trick. And that
1:30:06purpose.
1:30:07And that there was a purpose. Yeah.
1:30:08Yeah.
1:30:09Yeah. Yeah. My fear is that I'm always
1:30:11doing in between. You know, it's just a
1:30:12little bit too long or just too short,
1:30:15you know? So.
1:30:17But it's like it's like a lot of things
1:30:20in making movies. You have to go on your
1:30:22instinct.
1:30:22Mhm. So you you have to go on I feel a
1:30:26little bit longer.
1:30:28Yeah.
1:30:29They have to go on this move tells
1:30:32something. You know, and you can't
1:30:34always explain it in words. You just
1:30:36have to trust. Yeah. And What you feel.
1:30:38And I think the trust is something that
1:30:41you can have when the collaborators are
1:30:45have some sort of common reference or
1:30:47common ground. You know, I otherwise I
1:30:50think you know, you get in these
1:30:51situations where
1:30:53you know,
1:30:55storytellers, you know, the classic
1:30:56cases are the film directors battling
1:30:58with the studio executives because they
1:31:01just see storytelling very differently.
1:31:03How do you tell a story? Well, the
1:31:05studio wants you to tell it this way and
1:31:07the filmmaker wants to tell it this way.
1:31:09Like I remember, you know, working on a
1:31:12I back when I was an assistant working
1:31:14on a James Gray movie and
1:31:16shot the one of the movie photographed a
1:31:18certain way and the word coming down
1:31:20from the studio was like, "I'm really
1:31:22worried. The studio is really worried
1:31:24because it doesn't look like anything
1:31:25out there, you know?" Which, you know,
1:31:28that's that's
1:31:29Which would be a good thing.
1:31:30which is exactly what you want.
1:31:34Yeah. Yeah. It is. I didn't get a job.
1:31:37When when I when I started working here,
1:31:39I didn't get one job I wanted to do
1:31:40because the studio said I was my work
1:31:44was too European.
1:31:46Right. Right. Yeah, of course.
1:31:49They they they think they're they think
1:31:51they're insulting you, but it's the
1:31:52quite the opposite, you know?
1:31:55Well, it was a double-handed sort of
1:31:57thing, really, isn't it? Well, it's sort
1:31:58of yes and no, but I really wanted the
1:32:00job, but
1:32:02I don't Yeah.
1:32:04But All right. It's been really good,
1:32:07guys. It's wonderful.
1:32:09Yeah. Thanks so much for
1:32:11Thanks so much for inviting me into the
1:32:13conversation. Yeah. Yeah, and thank you
1:32:16for being part of it. It's really good.
1:32:18Yeah. That's great. All right. Well,
1:32:20great Great to meet you, Ed, and good to
1:32:22see you again, James and Roger. Yeah.
1:32:28If you'd like to sponsor the Team
1:32:29Deakins podcast, let us know at
1:32:32[email protected].
1:32:37Thanks for listening. If you want more
1:32:39information and further discussion,
1:32:41check out the forums at www.
1:32:45rogerdeakins.com.
1:32:48Becoming a member is free, and you can
1:32:50ask follow-up questions there.
1:32:53And be sure to subscribe to the podcast
1:32:55for more new questions and topics.
1:32:58Also, check us out on Instagram at
1:33:01team.deakins.
1:33:04See you next time.

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