Cambridge Analytica whistleblower Christopher Wylie: "You are the target" of companies like Faceb… — Transcript

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1. 0:02last year a former data consult at
2. 0:04Cambridge analytical blew the whistle on
3. 0:06his firm for illegally harvesting and
4. 0:08exploiting the information of millions
5. 0:10of Facebook users in his new book
6. 0:12Christopher Wiley reveals the details of
7. 0:14the scandal and he also addresses the
8. 0:16power social media companies have and
9. 0:18manipulating its users he sat down with
10. 0:20CBS News investigative reporter Graham
11. 0:22Cates and CNET senior producer dan
12. 0:24Patterson to expose exactly how much
13. 0:26information is unknowingly harvested on
14. 0:29social media there was one I think
15. 0:32particularly disturbing seeing that
16. 0:34played out in your book where you
17. 0:35described looking through the internet
18. 0:40activity the real-time Internet activity
19. 0:42of individual people and Trinidad and in
20. 0:45the background your boss
21. 0:46Alexander Nix is laughing kind of making
22. 0:49fun of people as they are literally
23. 0:51using the Internet at that moment and my
24. 0:53question is do you think that people
25. 0:55realize that companies are capable of
26. 0:57that level of surveillance no III you
27. 1:01know people aren't I think people may be
28. 1:04sort of theoretically aware that like
29. 1:06somebody can do something but you know
30. 1:09when you look at it you know a lot of
31. 1:11some of the past four elevations you
32. 1:14know like Edward Snowden Chelsea Manning
33. 1:15and all that a lot of people kind of
34. 1:17went well
35. 1:17like if I'm collateral collection or
36. 1:19whatever I'm not the target somebody
37. 1:20else is the target what's different with
38. 1:23Cambridge analytic and more broadly with
39. 1:25social media is that like you are the
40. 1:27target right like people want to harvest
41. 1:31your information in as granular away as
42. 1:34possible in order to like create a
43. 1:37picture a complete picture of who you
44. 1:38are ultimately to either sell you things
45. 1:41or make you believe things whatever you
46. 1:44know I in the book I talk about that as
47. 1:46an example just to really hit home like
48. 1:48like this looks like something it's like
49. 1:51literally people are kiddin look at this
50. 1:53you know people can look at what you're
51. 1:54what you're browsing and you know III
52. 1:59think that that's probably something
53. 2:01that we collectively should be looking
54. 2:03at as like you know how should we
55. 2:06prevent this from happening right after
56. 2:08the 2016 election Facebook initially
57. 2:10denied that propaganda
58. 2:12or conspiracy theories have proliferated
59. 2:14on the platform then after you blew the
60. 2:16whistle Facebook said hey look we've
61. 2:18taken a number of steps to make the
62. 2:20platform more secure we are several
63. 2:23years later in your assessment is
64. 2:26Facebook more or less secure than it was
65. 2:28in 2016 well I would hope that it's more
66. 2:32secure I think there's a more
67. 2:34fundamental question which is why are we
68. 2:36in trusting a private company with the
69. 2:39role of being a referee of speech in
70. 2:42political discourse and also you know
71. 2:44the protector of the security of you
72. 2:46know a really major part of elections
73. 2:50and our democratic process you know
74. 2:53Facebook has a history of you know
75. 2:56hiding and obfuscating and delaying and
76. 3:00not being upfront with people about the
77. 3:03problems that it knew about and perhaps
78. 3:06still knows about you know on its
79. 3:08platform and my concern is that you know
80. 3:11if we just if we just hope and trust
81. 3:14that Mark Zuckerberg is going to do the
82. 3:15right thing you know we're putting all
83. 3:17of our eggs in one basket and you know
84. 3:20even if a company like Cambridge
85. 3:21analytic I no longer exists you know
86. 3:24many of the things people work at the
87. 3:25Trump campaign and the capabilities
88. 3:28didn't disappear right and so my concern
89. 3:30is this is something that I talk about
90. 3:31later in the book is that you know even
91. 3:34if CIA has gone away you know what
92. 3:38happens if China becomes the next game
93. 3:39which analytic what happens if North
94. 3:41Korea or Iran becomes the next Cambridge
95. 3:43analytic ah that you know this is like a
96. 3:45really serious thing and I just you know
97. 3:49I do not believe that letting this
98. 3:54responsibility be solely managed by a
99. 3:56private company that has a history of
100. 3:59hiding and office skating what's
101. 4:00happening on this platform is a good
102. 4:01idea there are a lot of skeptics out
103. 4:04there who disbelieve that Facebook could
104. 4:06really be responsible for influencing so
105. 4:10many people yeah so you know if you
106. 4:14imagine you're on a blind date for a
107. 4:17second and you know let's say you go and
108. 4:21you sit down with somebody and you're
109. 4:23chatting with that person and you
110. 4:25they happen to like like the same music
111. 4:28that you like they watch the same TV
112. 4:29shows that you watched you know they
113. 4:31know some of the same people they hang
114. 4:32out in the same places they seem like
115. 4:34perfect for you right and and the reason
116. 4:37for that is because they've spent two
117. 4:39years talking you you know looking at
118. 4:41your photos reading your text messages
119. 4:43talking to your friends following you at
120. 4:45work and you know in that moment you are
121. 4:49vulnerable to being manipulated because
122. 4:51there is an imbalance in information you
123. 4:53don't you can't properly assess you know
124. 4:55the meaning and context of the things
125. 4:57that you're being told because you don't
126. 4:58know the underlying motivation or the
127. 5:00underlying information that's powering
128. 5:02that right and so Facebook is like a
129. 5:04scaled version of that stalker
130. 5:07information is really powerful and you
131. 5:10know if if Facebook wasn't an effective
132. 5:13tool for getting people to do things
133. 5:16whether it's to buy things or vote or
134. 5:18whatever you know it wouldn't be a
135. 5:20multi-billion dollar company I have seen
136. 5:23personally how powerful you know ad
137. 5:26targeting can be on that platform and
138. 5:28and more broadly what you're able to do
139. 5:31when you can capture you know people on
140. 5:33that platform and cultivate a
141. 5:35manipulative relationship with them so
142. 5:38you know if people are skeptical that's
143. 5:41fine they're entitled to be but you know
144. 5:44surely if it's something as important as
145. 5:46our democracy the precautionary
146. 5:49principle should you know reign true I
147. 5:52think and that even if you're a skeptic
148. 5:53the potential consequences for the
149. 5:56erosion of our democracy is so serious
150. 5:58that nonetheless we should take
151. 6:00seriously some of the concerns that
152. 6:03people have CBS News investigative
153. 6:06reporter Graham Cates joins me now boy
154. 6:08it's just fascinating to hear him talk
155. 6:10and rehash all this but I want to ask
156. 6:11you what happened to those members who
157. 6:14work for Cambridge analytic and they did
158. 6:15away with that company where are they
159. 6:16now did you talk about that a lot of
160. 6:19them are doing very similar work they're
161. 6:21doing similar work for campaigns here in
162. 6:23the US we know of a few already working
163. 6:25for the Trump campaign and they're
164. 6:27working around the world and and that's
165. 6:28what he was alluding to he was saying
166. 6:30what if a nation-state is able to do the
167. 6:33kinds of things that Cambridge analytic
168. 6:34I did and I think it's fair to assume I
169. 6:36mean if a company could do it and there
170. 6:38was a small company it had
171. 6:39of like 20 million dollars inverse of
172. 6:41course China the US Russia North Korea
173. 6:45could figure out how to access those
174. 6:47same channels to learn about people and
175. 6:49that's what he's really worried about
176. 6:50and I should say as a side note we are
177. 6:52currently trying to figure out where all
178. 6:55of the Cambridge analytic employees were
179. 6:57ended up because we want to know did
180. 6:59they take the data the original that
181. 7:01amazing powerful data that really can
182. 7:04stand the test of time
183. 7:05and did they bring it with them to other
184. 7:06places to use it in the same way you
185. 7:09know famously Wylie was banned from all
186. 7:12Facebook platforms after coming forward
187. 7:14does he still believe that people should
188. 7:16delete Facebook for security reasons we
189. 7:19actually talked about that a little bit
190. 7:20and he said he said it shouldn't be on
191. 7:22you to do that yeah this is a nice tool
192. 7:24it's it's cool to be able to share your
193. 7:26photos and communicate with people it
194. 7:28should be on Facebook to make you feel
195. 7:31comfortable with Facebook why should you
196. 7:33have to pay the price for the fact that
197. 7:35other people are leveraging your
198. 7:38information you asked him if you had a
199. 7:40message for Facebook what did he tell
200. 7:42you he said call me he wants to
201. 7:44communicate with Facebook he still bend
202. 7:46he's lumped in with the Cambridge
203. 7:48analytic of people who weren't the
204. 7:50whistleblowers right and he said I want
205. 7:52to communicate with you I'm a critic but
206. 7:54I think that we have a good conversation
207. 7:56to have here I don't get that I mean
208. 7:57he's deleted Facebook right he blew the
209. 8:01whistle on this but he still wants to
210. 8:02well he did delete Facebook they banned
211. 8:04it I mean sorry they banned him right
212. 8:05and they removed him but he's saying
213. 8:07call me yeah he got an inside look at
214. 8:11the vulnerabilities that Facebook has
215. 8:13and he's saying instead of instead of
216. 8:16just cutting me off and and never
217. 8:18communicating with me why don't we talk
218. 8:20about the problems that I saw that
219. 8:22apparently people around the world think
220. 8:24are major issues - do you think thanks
221. 8:26book calls him no I spoke with a
222. 8:29representative of Facebook this morning
223. 8:30and they weren't they're not thrilled
224. 8:35with Christopher Wiley's message alright
225. 8:37we'll leave it at that and great
226. 8:38interview well done and we can read more
227. 8:40and see more on CBS News