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Cam McEvoy: Why Training Less Made Me the Fastest Man in the World — Transcript

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0:00The enhanced games is an elaborate
0:01marketing um of the enhanced company
0:03which [music] is a subscriptionbased
0:05pharmaceutical company. The crux of the
0:07movement is just to simply [music] sell
0:09more drugs. Today's guest is one of the
0:12most fascinating athletes in world
0:13sport. Cam Makavoy is an Olympic gold
0:16medalist, world champion, and until very
0:19recently, the fastest man ever to swim
0:2250 m freestyle. [music] But what makes
0:25this story remarkable isn't just his
0:27success. It's how he achieved it. In a
0:30sport built on tradition, where
0:32generations of coaches preach more
0:34kilometers, more hours, and more
0:36suffering, Cam chose to question [music]
0:38the system. He challenged decades of
0:41accepted thinking, rebuilt his approach
0:43from the ground up, and [music] changed
0:45the sport in the process. This
0:48conversation comes at a fascinating
0:50moment. [music] Just days after his
0:52world record was broken by an athlete
0:54competing in the enhanced games, we
0:56explore the future of sport, [music]
0:58performance enhancement, fatherhood,
1:00legacy, and what still drives him
1:02towards Brisbane [music] 2032. This is
1:06where the map ends with Cam Mackoy.
1:09I wanted to start by just saying thank
1:12you for the training session early this
1:14morning which was like honestly an
1:16absolute privilege. I was sort of
1:18sitting in the pool thinking you know
1:20how cool is this being able to swim
1:23beside you know the the best in the
1:25world literally and you know for someone
1:28like me that half my life was swimming
1:30it was sort of even more surreal. Yeah.
1:33Well, it was good to have you. Um, it
1:35was good to show you how different
1:38things are as well. Um, obviously last
1:40time you would have swam it would have
1:41been cutting a few laps. Um,
1:43traditionally you probably your last
1:44session was probably like
1:46>> somewhere in the ballpark of 3 to 6k I
1:49would say. Um, and I don't think we did
1:51a full lap today.
1:53>> Um, seven efforts. I got you on the
1:55resistance, the assistance. Um, yeah,
1:58it's cool. It was cool to have the
1:59privilege to show you that there are
2:02different ways to experience this sport.
2:04>> Yeah. I wanted Yeah. I literally wanted
2:07to ask you exactly that if you could
2:08take us through a little bit that that
2:10session cuz it was so different to
2:12anything I've ever been through. Like it
2:14felt like a weights session.
2:16>> Yeah. So, so this session you've got to
2:19to understand this particular session
2:21you have to understand the context of
2:23the week and where I'm at. Um and so
2:26Monday of this week, so we're now
2:28Wednesday, Monday of this week was my
2:30suit up gopher times um kind of main
2:34type of session. And so we're 2 days
2:36post that we've had 48 hours for the
2:39neural fatigue to subside mostly, not
2:41fully but mostly. Um, and what I needed
2:44to do before I suit up and do another
2:46main session, which is tomorrow, is I
2:49need to tap back into the the technique
2:51and the coordination, the um the neural
2:54readiness behind being able to know when
2:57to when to pull at the right time, when
2:59to kick at the right time. Um, and also
3:02technique isn't just done by doing the
3:04motion, but it's also done by doing it
3:06at the speed and the intensity that you
3:09want to to get better at. Um, and so
3:12basically we ran through a style of what
3:16would you do what you do in the gym. So
3:18let's say you're going in and you're
3:20warming up for a 200 kilo squat. Uh, you
3:23walk in, maybe you do a few squats with
3:25the bar, you put 50 kilos on, a few more
3:27squats, and you slowly creep your way up
3:29warming up to that 200 kilo rep. This is
3:33similar but from a velocity point of
3:35view. So, we got in the water, started
3:37with 7 kilos of resistance, and then
3:40slowly made our way down to we went 7
3:43kilos for a few, 5 kilos for a few, and
3:46then went 3 kilos with fins. Um, we're
3:49getting from we're going from slower to
3:52faster and approaching the the race
3:54speeds that I hit in a 53 in in a
3:57competition. Um, and so those 3 kilo
4:00with fins reps that we did were the 35
4:03to 45 segment of my 50 meter race. Um,
4:07and then off the back of that, we went
4:10into some assisted work where the
4:11machine would pull us in at the the
4:13front section, the front speed of my 50
4:16freestyle or my goal 50 freestyle time.
4:18Um, and so we just slowly, yeah, went
4:21from slow to fast. um tapped into the
4:24right technique that I want to hit later
4:26on tomorrow in my session and later on
4:28at the Commonwealth Games um and just
4:31yeah check the box for today. One thing
4:33I found interesting when I've been
4:35talking to you in the past was that you
4:37sort of focus so much on neural
4:39recovery, which I'd never really heard
4:42many people talk about. Like everyone's
4:43always talking about muscular recovery,
4:45muscular recovery. And [snorts] I wanted
4:48to sort of dive into that a little bit
4:50more. And I think you mentioned that
4:51like you can't cheat neural recovery.
4:54It's it's sort of got a a strict time
4:57frame.
4:57>> Yeah. So there's nothing you can do
4:59about it. like you the enhanced games
5:02were this week. Um many other fields in
5:05strength I guess which are very neural
5:07dominant um obviously have things like
5:10that that testosterone, steroids etc.
5:12But none of that dopes the ability for
5:15your body to recover neurally. Um you
5:18can recover muscularly from all that
5:20type of stuff but yeah you you are at
5:22the the beck and call of when your
5:24neural your nervous system is ready to
5:26output again. And so a lot of my
5:29training has really revolved around how
5:31much of what I need to do can I do
5:36without falling over the cliff neurally
5:38speaking and that's not just locally
5:40that's not just in in one week of
5:42training but that's in one month of
5:43training 3 months of training one year
5:45of training. Um, and so yeah, it's very
5:48much about like the crux of this
5:50training or I guess the the art form of
5:53this training is being able to figure
5:56out individually within my own context,
5:58my own body, how I respond to certain
6:01types of output and then being able to
6:03just cram as much volume as I can in in
6:07the spaces around that without overdoing
6:09it. Can you tell when your like I guess
6:12your you know central nervous system is
6:15struggling or
6:16>> 100%. So the amount of times where I I
6:19track everything. So I I track every 5 m
6:22segment of a main session sprint that I
6:24do. Uh we we track what's per kilogram
6:27in terms of our force output on the
6:29block. Um body weightight jumps in the
6:31gym. Uh any any form of strength
6:34movement in the gym. And so basically by
6:38the time I dive in and I've done maybe
6:40two strokes and a rep, I'm I'm pretty
6:42aware where I'm sitting like whether I'm
6:45bang on and I'm about to do a really
6:47good rep or maybe I've started the
6:49session too early and I needed another
6:51day's rest or 12 hours rest. Um yeah,
6:53you get that immediate feedback and it's
6:55not just in it's not just in time as
6:58well, but it also comes up in like how
7:00your how your technique is, how your
7:01coordination is within the stroke. Um,
7:04and so yeah, it's very immediate, very
7:06obvious.
7:06>> Yeah. Uh, no, thanks again for dragging
7:10this old engineer through through the
7:12swimming pool. It was super cool. Yeah.
7:14Last question.
7:14>> You're actually doing all right though.
7:15You did well. You did well.
7:16>> Oh, thanks, mate. Uh, last question was
7:19sort of around why at the end of the
7:20session you do do the I guess the
7:23pulling method where you're actually
7:24sort of simulating moving quickly like
7:28what what is the purpose of that? So the
7:30purp again a large portion of today
7:34today was all technique work. Um I want
7:36to do I want to tap into what my
7:39technique is going to be like when I
7:41race without the physiological cost of
7:43having to go max. And so going back to
7:46before that, the fins and 3 kilos, the
7:48fins allows me to to hit the race speeds
7:51that I need, but it's way easier putting
7:53fins on and doing a rep than it is
7:55suiting up and doing a dive, swimming to
7:5735 and then tracking that 10 m after the
8:0030 35 or 45 m effort. Like I'm I'm going
8:03to be cooked from that.
8:04>> So same thing from the assisted stuff,
8:06getting towed in. We had that at 2.4
8:08m/s. Uh that's the speed I hit in that
8:11first 10 m of of swimming in a race. And
8:14basically doing four reps of that, I get
8:16100 100 m or 10 times the the distance
8:20that I'm I'm trying to practice in one
8:22session getting pulled in at the right
8:24speed. I can I can coordinate and move
8:26my technique in the way that I want to,
8:28but it's way easier for me to actually
8:30hit that speed because I'm getting towed
8:32in. I don't have to suit up. I don't
8:33have to be fresh enough to dive in and
8:36repeat that from a a physiological point
8:38of view. And so it's simply just about
8:41kind of shortcuts around how can I get
8:43what I need without having to spend what
8:45I need. It's so interesting because you
8:48know so much of everything we see today
8:51is more about the grind and sort of you
8:54know you know grind it out just deal
8:57with it you know it's always about sort
8:58of overtraining like I mean everything
9:00you see on social media whereas you're
9:03so contrarian to that the more we talk
9:05about it it's about reserving reserve
9:08reserve reserve like preserve
9:10>> as much as possible like
9:12>> when did you realize that that was a a
9:15great method I guess
9:16>> it's
9:18it's it's a combination of the two. It's
9:20I have very particular windows to which
9:23when I'm in that window, it's like pedal
9:27to metal. It's it's balls to the wall.
9:28Like basically as much as I can, I'm
9:30going to I'm going to try and grind it
9:32out in terms of if it's a gym session, a
9:34sprint session, whatever that is. Um,
9:37but I just don't I don't have the
9:40ability to rely on just being able to
9:43back up and do it over and over again
9:44because it just makes you worse. And so
9:48despite the general like it is contrary
9:50to to even everything that I experienced
9:53when I was um at the start of my career
9:55and um everything that you would have
9:56went through when you were swimming as
9:57well and and sport in general it usually
10:00you associate pain and and and effort um
10:04and the more of that to success to
10:06progress um and I don't know maybe that
10:09works when you're starting out this type
10:10of this type of training that you can do
10:12a lot more and fit it in but at this
10:13level um you make a huge mistake if you
10:17if you try and grind it out because it's
10:19just not how the body works. And and as
10:22much as it feels cool to be able to
10:23stand behind the blocks and be like,
10:25"Yeah, like I trained 20 times this
10:27week. I did XYZ. Um I felt like [ __ ] the
10:30last 50 weeks and it was awesome." The
10:32the body doesn't care. Like the body has
10:35no idea that's what you're going through
10:38and it's just going to react the way it
10:39reacts. And so you have to realign what
10:43you're doing
10:44>> to optimize it pretty much.
10:46There was some, you know, probably some
10:48shallow um discussion sort of pivoting,
10:51but there was some bodybuilders like in
10:53the early days that used to talk about
10:55this a lot. I think it was like Dorian
10:56Yates and Mike Mensah, and they [snorts]
11:00were sort of the first to go, you know,
11:02it's not about volume at all. It's
11:05actually about how how much intensity
11:07you can drive into that one set and then
11:11recover and focus on recover. the actual
11:13recovery part of it was the most
11:16important part. And so it's sort of
11:17interesting to see like swimming that
11:19session today, it seemed very much like
11:22that.
11:22>> Yeah. Ve very similar. Um the analogy I
11:25like to use and I've lent on it a while
11:27is if you have a a piece of music, you
11:29have the notes and the notes is
11:31obviously the thing you experience. But
11:33if you have no spaces between the notes,
11:35then it's just a large jumble of noise
11:37that just doesn't make any sense. So you
11:40need to have the music to actually make
11:44sense in the end of everything and for
11:47what I'm doing that's the time between
11:50the notes is the rest period between
11:52between the sessions. Without them
11:54you're just smashing stuff for the sake
11:56of making noise.
11:57>> I love it. That simplifies it.
11:59>> I like it. But there is one issue I
12:02imagine and there's probably the issue
12:03of a lot of possible young swimmers or
12:05new swimmers thinking they can just
12:08adopt you know the Cam Makavoy method
12:10without that sort of base training that
12:13you probably have. Do you think that's
12:15correct that you know that base I guess
12:18um machine that you built over so many
12:20years is 100% necessary to be able to
12:23sort of run your new model?
12:25>> It depends what you define as as your
12:28base. Um, traditionally in swimming and
12:30what a lot of the swimming community go
12:32on about now is the base you need is an
12:35aerobic base. Um, and from that
12:38perspective, absolutely not. There is
12:40absolutely if you're only wanting to do
12:42the 50 freestyle um or 50 anything
12:45really. Uh, there's no reason that you
12:47need uh gargantuan aerobic base to be
12:51able to do any of this off the back of
12:52that. Um, if you simply look at
12:56athletics, for example, so what I've
12:58done to swimming is what happened in
13:00track around the 1980s, 1990s, you look
13:03at the landscape in track and field now.
13:06Look at all the all the high school like
13:08the high school runners in the US.
13:09You're getting a handful now every year
13:11going sub 10. uh you're getting I think
13:13there was a a 16-year-old was part of
13:15the 4x4 uh in Paris at the Olympics who
13:18won gold who went I think it was like a
13:20low 44 something ludicrous like that. Um
13:24you have these teenagers in high school
13:27running insane times and none of them
13:30have done probably like maybe the 400
13:32guy but the 100 the 200 people. You'd be
13:35hardressed to find the good ones doing
13:37more than a lap at a time or they would
13:39have no aerobic base. And so if it's
13:43working in that sport, I can't
13:44understand how just because we're in
13:46water that's going to have any any any
13:49difference to that. Um, but if you take
13:52base in terms of a an ability for
13:55neurological output, an ability for
13:57strength, a strength base, um, 100%
14:00that's something you have to develop.
14:02But that's also something you you have
14:04to develop outside of things like
14:06aerobic base and everything cuz like
14:08there's studies that show for 400 track
14:11runners, anyone with a really high max
14:13V2, that's linked to actually negative
14:17performances in the 400. um more than
14:20likely because the the the type of
14:22training required to get your max V2 up
14:24to a really high level goes against the
14:26type of adaptations you need to sprint
14:27and be fast. And so those with a high
14:30max V2 just can't be fast enough to to
14:32do a good 400. Um and so yeah, 100% my
14:36like to come back to the original point,
14:38I don't think you need any form of of
14:41aerobic base to be able to do this.
14:43We've also seen a few teenagers in
14:45swimming in Australia pivot to this
14:47really early at 15 at 16. Um, and both
14:50of them like one of them was the he got
14:52fifth at world world juniors last year
14:55and then the other one this year just
14:57did the fastest junior 50 m freestyle in
15:00history. He went 217. Um, absolutely
15:03incredible time off the back of that. I
15:05think he was ranked he was ranked 100 or
15:08above 100 at national age two or three
15:10years ago and now he's the quickest
15:12junior ever.
15:13>> Um and there's no way that he started at
15:16at 16. You don't have that base at 16.
15:19It's not developed yet,
15:21>> but he's still doing what he's doing. So
15:24yeah, I think it it it heavily comes
15:26down to what you define as your base.
15:29>> Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Fascinating. Uh, I
15:33wrote down a quote, uh, super nerdy.
15:36>> Yeah.
15:36>> From a physicist. I couldn't actually
15:39pronounce his name, so I didn't write it
15:40down.
15:41>> Is it Richard Feman?
15:42>> No, it's not Richard Feman.
15:44>> Um, and I thought it related very much
15:46to I guess your story a little bit. And
15:49it was perfection is achieved not when
15:51there is nothing more to add, but when
15:54there is nothing more to take away. And
15:56I kind of feel sometimes that when I
15:58watch some of your stuff, it's a bit
16:00it's a bit like that. Uh, and it it
16:04comes back to the point that you're you
16:06you know, you were super contrarian
16:08>> at that point in time. And it takes, you
16:10know,
16:11>> in everything in in business, in you
16:14know, all different kinds of sports.
16:16>> It it's a big risk to be contrarian. Uh,
16:20and you also take a lot of heat for it
16:22at the time. Yeah.
16:27>> At the time, you know, when I guess
16:30particularly at Rio, I think you
16:31mentioned, you know, you were following
16:33the typical culture of swimming at the
16:36time, which again is relevant to so many
16:38different I guess industries as well.
16:42And you know, what changed your mind and
16:44then what sort of flack you cpped as you
16:47sort of in reinvented yourself?
16:50>> Yeah. Okay. So
16:53all of the context behind that I'd say
16:55would start around Rio. So for anyone
16:57listening if you're not aware of what
17:00traditional training is. Um I was doing
17:03the 50 and the 100 free and the turn
17:05free. Traditional training would have me
17:08doing anywhere between 30 and 60 km um
17:11in the water per week. And that largely
17:15lasts for most of the year except for 3
17:17weeks out from the competition when you
17:18try and taper your peak um and you drop
17:21that to I don't know maybe 20 25k
17:23depending on on where you're at who
17:24you're with. So that's the traditional
17:27approach. I went into Rio as the
17:30favorite in the 100 freestyle and I
17:32ended up getting seventh in that race.
17:34The response from the coaches was
17:38basically that we had the perfect runup
17:41and the only difference was that when
17:43you're up on the block, you just
17:44couldn't stand up to the occasion. Uh,
17:47at that point in time,
17:50my gut didn't really agree with it, but
17:52I was 22. Um, I'd never really had too
17:56much of a thought around what actually
17:59is the full depth and flesh of a
18:02training program. And so, uh, being the
18:05swimmer, the swimmer, having the coaches
18:07in that authority position, um, I viewed
18:10them as, okay, maybe they can see stuff
18:12that that I can't. And so, it was kind
18:15of ignoring that gut feeling and and
18:18taking on board what they're saying. So,
18:20off the back of that, got back into
18:22training and between Rio and the Tokyo
18:25Olympics, uh, I made it my goal to, if
18:29you, if you laid out the entire week of
18:31training from Monday through to
18:33Saturday, made it my goal for me to be
18:35able to do that week to the best of my
18:37abilities, as well as I can. And by the
18:40time Tokyo rolled around, I could do
18:42that week well and truly, like far and
18:44beyond better than what I was doing
18:46leading into Rio. But the problem is in
18:49that four year or five year scope um the
18:52the better I got at doing the training
18:54week the worse I actually got at racing
18:57at the end of the the season in the the
19:00actual cont the actual the actual end
19:02goal got worse as I got better at that.
19:04Um but regardless I was getting praised
19:07because I was training really well. I
19:08was doing really good aerobic work. I
19:10was doing this and that. Um despite the
19:13fact that I was getting worse in what I
19:15was meant to do. And so CO rolled
19:18around. I took some time off. Um it was
19:21the first time I had longer than three
19:22weeks out of the water since I think
19:26since I was about nine and I was 26 or
19:2927 at the time.
19:30>> So it was a long time without having a
19:33proper break and and I I think it ended
19:35up being seven or or 8 months for me.
19:37>> In that time I decided to go to the gym
19:41um do a bro split. Uh I had no knowledge
19:43on how to actually do anything. So I I
19:46think I was I'd go on Instagram, find
19:48some bodybuilders, they would put their
19:49split up and I just copy paste it. Like
19:51no performance in mind, just I wanted to
19:54go and throw weight around. Um like I'd
19:56done gym my entire life, but you're
19:59coming into the gym after let's say 40k
20:02of aerobic swimming a week. Like there's
20:03not there's not much you can do. I was a
20:05stick. Um I had a 33 skinfold if anyone
20:09knows skinfold metrics. Um I was 70 71
20:1372 kilograms when I started at the time.
20:16Um and so yeah I gym was foreign to me
20:18even though I' I'd been in there for a
20:20while. In that 7 months I went from low
20:2370 to low 80 kilos. Felt way more
20:26grounded, felt better in my body. Um and
20:30at that time I had so swimming had
20:32already gone back for training for the
20:34Tokyo Olympics that had been moved to
20:36the year after. And I wasn't sure at
20:38some point if I wanted to go back, but
20:40eventually one of my mates told me he
20:42got the pool record in the 53 at
20:44training. Um I was like, "Okay, yeah,
20:46what what time did you go all this?" And
20:48he was like, "I went 233." And I was
20:50like, "I could beat that." And so 10
20:52kilos, little bit over 10 kilos heavier.
20:54Hadn't done a lap of swimming in seven
20:56or eight months. U went to the local
20:59pool, went to South Pool, put a suit on,
21:01didn't warm up, just got up on the
21:03blocks. He filmed it. We did like a race
21:06analysis after so it could be accurate.
21:08Dropped a 227. [clears throat] And to
21:10put that into context, the entire
21:12season, so the the season pre uh Olympic
21:15cancellation went from August 2019 to
21:18March 2020. I raced I think eight times
21:21in the 53 leading up to that. In March
21:242020, I was 230. So I was point 2.3
21:28slower than what I did heavier without
21:31touching the water supposedly at the
21:33height or the peak of the Olympic
21:35preparation. And so that was the first
21:38instance of realizing like, okay,
21:41something weird is going on. Like I I
21:43don't fully understand it at this point
21:45in time, but somehow I've done literally
21:48nothing except gym. Yet I've been faster
21:51than what I did when I was fully like
21:53dayto-day like fully aligned to
21:56training, getting better, all that type
21:57of stuff. And so came back to training.
22:00Um did that I did like 2 or 3k per
22:05session. three sessions a week for a
22:06couple of weeks. Got into the state
22:09championships at the end of 2020. So I'd
22:11been back, I think it was 8 weeks back
22:13after that 53. Um went even faster, went
22:16220, uh where I ended up going slower at
22:20the Tokyo Olympics, 20 22.3, but that
22:23220 the coaches came up to me afterwards
22:25and were like, "Wow, like you did so
22:28fast in that race. Imagine what you'd do
22:30if you just went back to traditional
22:31training." And very reluctantly we found
22:35like a middle ground. Um so instead of
22:37doing 40k a week, I think we started at
22:3925k or something which thinking back
22:41just makes my gut churn. But we started
22:43there. It was a compromise. And then I
22:46raced once a month every month after
22:48that and from from then until April and
22:51every competition I got slower and
22:53slower and slower. The April comp I was
22:5620 23 for a 53. So I was half a second
23:00slower than that that initial swim u
23:03after being out of the water for 8
23:05months and I was 1.3 seconds slower than
23:07what I was 8 weeks being back in the
23:09water just dabbling every every second
23:11day or something like that. Um so off
23:14the back of that decided to go back to
23:15doing a little bit but I was kind of in
23:17no man's land at that point in time. I
23:19was 2 months out from trials. Wasn't
23:21much I could do. Um and so somehow ended
23:24up scraping on to the Olympic team. Went
23:26over to Tokyo. didn't get out of the
23:28heat. Um 29th and the 53 over there. Um
23:32appalling and yeah, that was kind of the
23:36origin story of how I bought into what
23:40the the traditional I guess approach was
23:43telling me to do and what all all of the
23:45the the guards of that approach were
23:48telling me to do. how it got worse and
23:50then how I kind of had that flicker or
23:52glimmer of experience and realization
23:55that there is definitely some other way
23:57and there's some there's something there
23:59that needs to be discovered.
24:01>> Do you feel let down by those guards and
24:03do you now see some of them and and and
24:06they've potentially change their tune at
24:08this point?
24:08>> I I definitely feel let down. um 100% I
24:11feel let down because it just it's it's
24:14just so far removed from anything
24:16logical that you could apply to
24:18sprinting. Um and also during that time
24:22not only myself but I know so many
24:24people who speak up about having
24:26questions of oh maybe like you
24:28experience a certain session or or an
24:30approach and you go right this doesn't
24:32feel good this makes me feel worse and
24:34the response is usually just to to to
24:36press back against you and and and
24:39basically make you not allowed to have
24:41that type of self agency.
24:43>> So definitely feel let down with that.
24:45Um, a few of them have changed their
24:48mind recently. Um, most of them have
24:51changed their mind but have not said
24:54anything to me and will not say anything
24:56to me. Um, and then there's quite a few
24:58that are still very much in the ballpark
25:01of I can only do what I'm doing now
25:03because I did their training for so long
25:05and so I have that base to carry me and
25:06that no one else would be will can do
25:09this approach.
25:10>> Yeah. So, they're still sort of
25:11skeptical as well.
25:12>> Um, yeah. I I don't know if you'd use
25:15skeptical um prideful maybe.
25:18>> Yeah.
25:19>> Uh but there's still and it's it's only
25:21domestically like internationally. I
25:23have a ton of people reaching out to me,
25:25coaches, athletes.
25:26>> Um all of them not only enjoying what
25:30I'm putting out there cuz I've been
25:32pretty open source about what I've been
25:33doing. Um not only enjoying it, but also
25:35being really curious to learn and ask
25:37questions. Um which has been a stark
25:39contrast to domestically. Like not one
25:42domestic coach has come up to me out of
25:45just professional curiosity and asked
25:47me, "Hey, what are you doing? What are
25:49your what are your theories? What what
25:50are the methodologies? Um how can you do
25:52such little volume yet drop time and
25:55taper and like where where are the
25:57intricacies of what you're doing? Like
25:58not one person
26:00>> uh coach I've had athletes but coach has
26:03come up to me and just asked that not
26:05even to agree but just to understand. Um
26:08so yeah, it's been it's been a little
26:09bit disappointing. It's very much a work
26:12smarter not harder really.
26:14>> Yeah, pretty much like you have you have
26:16the science telling you what to do and
26:19you're just doing it and so in a way
26:21it's definitely working smarter not
26:23harder because the previous approach was
26:25just
26:26>> just working like there was no smartness
26:29around it.
26:30>> I want to preface that though like
26:32arriving at the swimming training today
26:34is it's it's extremely sort of I'd say
26:38it's serious. It's not like there's
26:40>> it's dialed in.
26:41>> It's dialed in. So when I say
26:43>> you're not working harder, like it's
26:45still extremely focused, I was sort of
26:48super impressed. And I sort of I was
26:49thinking, imagine if I treated each of
26:51my days like this, you know,
26:54>> like there's not one 5minute interval in
26:57your day that doesn't have some form of
26:59contribution to an end goal.
27:01>> That's effectively what it would be. Um
27:04cuz that's what I do. Like I've
27:05literally cut everything out that has
27:08zero or little contribution to what I'm
27:12trying to do, which is swim faster over
27:13one lap,
27:14>> which goes into that quote, right? Um I
27:17guess yeah, I guess in in his eyes,
27:18perfection is just optimization. Like
27:21I've taken I've gone from 40k a week,
27:23let's say, to I think I sit around 1.3
27:261.5K a week at the moment. So, I've
27:29taken so much out, but what's left are
27:32just the giant levers that actually have
27:34a contribution to what I'm trying to do.
27:36>> There's actually another quote, I didn't
27:37write it down here, from Albert Einstein
27:39that says, "Always try to make
27:41everything simpler but not simple."
27:44>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
27:46>> Is it interesting?
27:47>> And like you rock up to rock up to my
27:49training today and you see the session
27:50on the board and it's like, "Oh, like
27:52that's that's straightforward. That's
27:53pretty simple." Like there's a lot
27:55>> behind it. Like the skeleton of it has a
27:58lot of intricacies to it, but like once
27:59it's on the board, it's like, "Oh, yeah,
28:01that's that's pretty nice."
28:02>> Yeah. But I wouldn't say it's simple
28:04with all the different, you know, cable
28:06settings and everything.
28:06>> Oh, yeah. True. I mean, once you learn
28:08that, it's all right.
28:09>> Yeah. Uh, I wanted to also touch on and
28:13give some context from myself. When I
28:16used to swim, and I swam from probably
28:18four years old to up till about 16, it
28:22was extremely hard. Like I look back on
28:26that and I go near a pool now even with
28:28my kids and I don't want to get in. Like
28:30it's sort of like I have PTSD.
28:32>> That's such a shame.
28:33>> And uh and you know to the point where I
28:35if there's a sausage sizzle I relate
28:37that to the chlorine smell
28:39>> of the pool.
28:41>> And um
28:42>> and so I give that context. You know
28:44there were days where my coach would
28:46just give me the piece of chalk and go
28:48like chalk up 100 100 meters sprints
28:51[laughter] and you just go what?
28:53>> Sick. and uh and you're getting paid
28:56you're not getting paid at all for any
28:57of that of course
28:59>> and so you know I look back on that now
29:01and you couldn't pay me enough to do
29:04that like it was extremely challenging
29:07>> and [snorts]
29:08so I I wanted to sort of ask you you
29:11know how you do it and the fact that you
29:14know potentially I know you were offered
29:16um some significant money for the
29:18enhanced games and you you I believe you
29:21turned it down. Why
29:23>> the So, for context with the enhanced
29:26games, I I didn't I never got into
29:28conversations around being offered
29:30something, but there was definitely NBA
29:32style money there. Um,
29:34>> there's headlines 5 million.
29:36>> Yeah. Just just just one message would
29:38have been um yeah, into the NBA style
29:41ballpark of of figures out there, which
29:44is a stark contrast to where we're at
29:46now. Um, like for example, my world
29:49record in China, I got no world record
29:51bonus for that. Um, I got a 10k prize
29:54pool for winning the event, but the
29:56world record had a a zero bonus. But I
29:59mean, 10k, which is considered a quite a
30:02large prize pool in the landscape of
30:04world swimming at the moment relative
30:06to, let's say, the enhanced being at
30:07250k for first um, and 50k for last over
30:11there. It's significantly different. Um,
30:14and so yeah, I mean I I guess it that
30:17just comes to it comes back to the why
30:20in what you're doing. And obviously I
30:21didn't get into swimming with a
30:23financial motivation. Uh I'm at a point
30:26now where I'm fortunate enough where I
30:28could expand the landscape of of what
30:31I'm doing in the water to maybe uh like
30:34capture some of that. But it's
30:35definitely not the primary reason that
30:37got that got me into swimming. um like I
30:39wasn't four years old going right I'm
30:41going to go to the enhanced games in in
30:4326 years or I'm going to go go to the
30:45Olympics go to the world champs in 26
30:47years and make XYZ. Um and so my my own
30:52character my own personality is very
30:54much around just it's very it's driven
30:57by curiosity. Um I've got a physics and
30:59mathematics background in at university.
31:02I just love to figure [ __ ] out and and
31:04find out why things are the way they
31:06are. And then just solving problems
31:09around stuff that just interest me. And
31:11swimming obviously is very deeply
31:13entrenched in my heart in my in my
31:15life's journey. And I have a a pretty
31:18good natural talent at that as well,
31:20combined with a a really solid work
31:22ethic. And so it's just really [ __ ]
31:25fun to sit down, think about I'm at
31:29point A right now. I want to get to
31:31point B. There's a hundred different
31:33ways that I could do that. There's the
31:35my like my physical body is the the
31:38canvas in which I can then translate
31:41that or transmute that from going from
31:43point A to point B. And all I have to do
31:45is put myself through certain scenarios,
31:48whether that's weighted pull-ups or
31:50sprinting at a particular speed or
31:52sprinting with a particular resistance.
31:54And I do that at particular points in
31:56time across a particular length of time.
31:59and I can somehow create something that
32:02didn't exist right now in the future
32:04that can also do a goal or something
32:07that I always wanted to do. And like
32:09that's the crux of what drives me right
32:12now. Um, and so I'm very much well and
32:15truly centered in that. And I guess I
32:17have to be more so than ever now because
32:19you have events like enhanced games
32:21running parallel to to the traditional
32:24swimming quadrrenal, I guess you could
32:26say. uh which then yeah definitely
32:29throws a spinner in the works and yeah
32:32it's a difficult landscape to navigate.
32:34>> You mentioned that there was a
32:35spokesperson that I think raised that
32:37you know athletes um shouldn't be paid
32:40more for the Olympics. I wanted to raise
32:42that.
32:42>> So this spokesperson was the um head of
32:45the IOC the international Olympic
32:47committee. Um so you can't get any
32:49higher than that within the Olympic
32:51community. And yeah, she unfortunately
32:55came out a day and a half after the
32:57enhanced games finished and basically
33:00just literally not basically literally
33:02said I don't believe the athletes should
33:04get paid. Um and so I think that any
33:08wind left in the in the lungs of um
33:11clean athletes with the Olympic movement
33:14in mind with the Olympic Games in mind
33:16was probably just yeah punched out of
33:18them which is not you couldn't have
33:20thought of a more inopport inopportune
33:23time to say something like that. M uh
33:26previously you'd mentioned to me as well
33:28that uh you know it was very much a
33:31legacy play for you and that you know
33:33what would your child think if you went
33:36with sort of the easy option? I thought
33:38that was a really cool perspective as
33:40well. I try to think similarly. Uh can
33:43you sort of touch on that as well?
33:45>> Yeah. So, I have a a 10-month-old right
33:48now. Um, and he's going to be seven by
33:52the time 2032 rolls around, the Brisbane
33:54Olympic Games, be three in LA. Uh,
33:57there's a there's a chance I'm going to
33:59have Elaine in Brisbane. Um, I would
34:02love for him to be in the crowd to watch
34:04that and to remember that. LA is going
34:06to be borderline 3 years old. I'm not
34:08sure if he will remember that, but
34:10Brisbane definitely. and to forego the
34:13opportunity to have him be in the crowd
34:16and watch me do what I do and what I've
34:18dedicated my life to do. Um to instead
34:22go after something like the enhanced
34:24games just it it's it's not worth it in
34:26any sense of the word. Um if you do the
34:29enhance, you basically forfeit your
34:30ability to compete at a world
34:32championships at Olympic Games. And so
34:35the the the lesson that that would teach
34:38him, I think basically it's gets
34:41destroyed in the sense where he's not
34:44going to remember the enhanced games. is
34:45just going to be told that I moved away
34:47from sport to go and get like x amount
34:50of money for doing this and that which
34:53means I have to sacrifice his experience
34:56to watch his father in the stands do
34:59something at the Olympic Games and and
35:02yeah just to experience it from that
35:03point of view and and to to know that
35:07when he grows up he will think back upon
35:09that decision and basically see that I
35:12discarded a lifetime of passion and work
35:15just for a bag.
35:17>> It's not going to Yeah. It's just not
35:20the type of lesson you want to teach
35:21>> your own child, let alone any child out
35:24there within within the sport or with
35:25just with within the community of sport
35:28as well.
35:29>> I I'm um yeah, I'm disappointed to hear
35:32that from the spokesperson in
35:34particular. Like I think Australia has
35:36such an amazing sporting culture and
35:38it's such a massive part of our fabric
35:41as a country. So for me personally, you
35:44know, I I want to do what I can to
35:47support the athletes because I think
35:49that's what makes an amazing Olympics
35:51and I think, you know, having leaders
35:54like that in the space is so important
35:56for our kids culturally as well. Like
35:59that's what builds them an amazing
36:00foundation. It did for me.
36:02>> So I wanted to just just say that
36:06personally
36:06>> 100%. And like without the athletes,
36:08there is no Olympic. There's like the
36:10athletes are in fact the product for
36:13something like that. And if you remove
36:15the athletes, you remove the Olympics in
36:18total. And like the grassroot effects
36:20that that the Olympics have on everyone.
36:22Like everyone who's ever got into sport
36:25has an an early very early memory of
36:28watching the Olympics or having some
36:29form of reaction to an Olympic games,
36:32some person competing or some event
36:34that's going on. And that's a heavy
36:36inspiration that pushes them towards
36:38just getting into sport as well.
36:40>> And so, yeah, like the the erosion of
36:43that would be would be a real shame.
36:46>> It's interesting cuz I can understand
36:49the temptation like there's some great
36:50athletes out there who, you know, that
36:52amount of money in their bank account
36:54would be significant
36:56>> 100%. And so, you know, it does raise an
36:59interesting question whether the
37:00enhanced games is going to help
37:03potentially in that in that sense. Uh,
37:06and that might be the one flip side of
37:08all of it. But, uh, yeah, I'm interested
37:11to hear your thoughts on that, too.
37:12>> Yeah. Well, there there certainly might
37:13be some positives that come uh from the
37:16enhanced into the the regular world of
37:19sport. Um so obviously all the eyes were
37:21on how much they were earning. not only
37:24the prize money from the event but also
37:26they all had um basically sign on
37:28bonuses, salaries, everything like that
37:31is sacked up equity in the in the uh in
37:33the stocks and so that could have a a
37:38downstream consequence where things like
37:40world aquatics, world athletics,
37:43I did think maybe the Olympics but not
37:45so much at the moment um might have a a
37:48pivot point where they actually have to
37:50or or maybe yeah where where they're
37:52forced to maybe step up and and meet the
37:55occasion that's going on meet the what
37:57what what is happening in the world. Um
38:00I did see like a lot of I know every I
38:02know most of the swimmers that raced at
38:04the enhanced games as well.
38:06>> Um some of them I've been racing since
38:08like Christian who broke my world
38:09record. I I met him in 2011 at the World
38:12Juniors. Um I was 16, he was 17. We
38:14raced each other then. We've been racing
38:16each other since then. I've been racing
38:18Ben and I've known Ben Proud who got
38:20second in the 53 there. um probably from
38:23from about 2014. Um and we've been we've
38:26gone headto-head in the last couple of
38:27years as well at the World Champs, the
38:29Olympic Games. And these are good guys.
38:31Like they're not not bad people for
38:33going and doing this. And and inherently
38:35as human beings, they're good people. um
38:37they've definitely cpped a an asymmetric
38:41amount of hate that the the I think the
38:44sporting community has as a whole where
38:47it's not so much towards the people,
38:49it's towards what is going on and the
38:51ethics behind it, but there's nowhere
38:53for that to be placed. So that's being
38:55projected onto these athletes. Um but
38:58like Christian for example, he's made
39:00probably in the ballpark of 3 million
39:02plus in the last 12 months alone. He's
39:04got a a young child as well. Um, and
39:07like I don't think that that would
39:10probably be I would I would be
39:12comfortable to say that's probably 20 30
39:15times the amount he probably made in his
39:16career, which is insane to think about
39:18cuz his career is like he was around
39:20since 2011 on the international stage.
39:23>> So that's a what's that? That's like a
39:2515year career compared to one year of
39:28what he's done at the moment. So I can
39:29completely understand the financial side
39:32of things and and how they chose to do
39:35that. Um, it's definitely also not the
39:38full picture. Um, and yeah, like what
39:41what I just said goes into account as
39:43well, like with my son, what I want him
39:45to think about what I'm doing among also
39:47the general legacy I want to leave
39:49within the the sport itself, within
39:52swimming. Um, being the world record
39:54holder, I' I've got one Olympic gold
39:56medal. I'd love to defend my title in
39:58LA. Um, I'd love to continue pushing the
40:01boundaries of of seeing where that world
40:03record can go as well in a clean
40:05environment with a legal suit. Um, so
40:08there's a lot more that goes into it,
40:09but I can definitely understand some of
40:12their reasons.
40:13>> And just touching on since you touched
40:15on it, obviously uh you just broken the
40:18world record in China and now it's been
40:21I guess somewhat broken at the enhanced
40:24games. Can you talk to like the suits?
40:26like what what is the deal with the
40:28suits? Like
40:30>> so the suits were around in 2008 and
40:33then heavily uh in their final form in
40:362009. I think in 2009 64 world records
40:40were broken in the space of like 3
40:42months or something like that. It got to
40:44the point where it was so ludicrous that
40:47the actual suits got banned. Um, and we
40:49went went back to suits that went from
40:51above the knee to the hip and also
40:53different type of material that wasn't
40:55so floaty and and buoyant. Um, I got my
40:59hands so when Christian broke the world
41:00record last year that in in this in the
41:02red suit and he also wore the same red
41:04suit uh the other day. I got my hands in
41:07one of them and put it on and just did a
41:10couple efforts in training over 25 m. It
41:13is insane the difference they give. So
41:17um basically we're talking in the
41:20ballpark of.3 to point4 of a second over
41:2325. Um I don't know what it would be
41:26over 50 whether it's more heavily
41:28helpful in that first part of the 50 or
41:30maybe you get the same amount the second
41:31part but it is night and day different.
41:35Um, and I would probably go as far to
41:37argue that a large portion of the
41:40personal best times that were done at
41:42the Enhanced Games were probably because
41:43they all got to wear suits and they'd
41:45never worn a suit before.
41:46>> Yeah. And so is it the buoyancy in the
41:48suit that sort of lifts you out of the
41:50water or
41:50>> Yeah. So it's polyurethane and it's
41:53extremely water repellent. It's really
41:56really buoyant as well. So, I think one
42:00one way to to put it in perspective is
42:04if you push off the wall in just regular
42:06training togs, you could probably glide
42:09in Streamline to somewhere between 10
42:11and 15 m. If you put this suit on, and
42:14back in 2009, people would put two,
42:16sometimes even three suits on at the
42:18same time. If you pushed off the wall
42:20and did Streamline, you're you're you're
42:22pushing 25 m. So it just the the drag
42:26coefficient just gets shattered and
42:28yeah, you just you the energy you have
42:30to put into the race is just so much
42:32less compared to without it.
42:33>> Yeah. Right. And you mentioned to me
42:36previously that you were potentially
42:38going to do a time trial with a suit. Is
42:41that still on the [laughter] card?
42:43>> So I I had this plan where I wanted to I
42:47mean I had my hands on a suit. I wanted
42:50to do a 50 time trial. I was pretty
42:53confident, this was pre-enhanced, premy
42:55my world record. Um, I was pretty
42:57confident that just on like like a
42:59random Thursday, I could put it on and
43:00throw down a time that would beat the
43:03the enhanced world record that was out
43:05there. And my reasoning behind that was
43:08just to to stir the pot because let's
43:10say I I I I did that. I went 20.6 or
43:12something. I posted it online. Then the
43:15what I I was just interested in what
43:17would the enhanced games do because the
43:19million dollars was for the 20.89 89
43:21that Christian did last year. But if
43:23there's video evidence of me doing a
43:2520.6, do they go the 20.6 then as a
43:28million dollar bonus or do they keep the
43:3020.89 because that's officially done
43:32within like
43:33>> I use officially done in quotations but
43:35within a setting and they were there.
43:37They verified that type of stuff. So it
43:39just would have stirred the pot a little
43:40bit. But I ended up going to the China
43:42Open and off like in the middle of my
43:44season ended up getting the world record
43:46without expecting to get it. Um, and so
43:50because I did that, I was just like,
43:51well, there's no need to. And so I was
43:54waiting for to see what they would do,
43:57the enhanced games. Um, I honestly
44:00expected way way faster than what they
44:02put down. Granted, they had multiple
44:04events. They had Christian at the 100
44:06beforehand. Uh, Ben Pratt had the 50 fly
44:08beforehand. Beforehand, but
44:11>> I mean, they are on like I don't know
44:13EPO and stuff like I'm sure they could
44:14back up pretty well. Yeah. um let alone
44:17they had the suits and everything. So I
44:18genuinely thought they were going to
44:21smash the time and so I was just waiting
44:23to see. But now it's 20.81. It's like
44:26well that that's within range like like
44:28that's that's doable. And so um I think
44:31I'm going to park the suit idea for a
44:33little bit and just focus on what I'm
44:35doing anyway and and just try and try
44:36and drop my own my my own best time. And
44:39because it's only 007, strong chance
44:41that that that gap if I do a PB, it
44:43probably gets near there or or surpasses
44:46that.
44:46>> Yeah. Cool. I'm very cool. I'm very keen
44:48to follow that story.
44:49>> We'll see. We'll see. But I've got to
44:51say
44:52I also don't really care. Like it does
44:55doesn't matter.
44:56>> Yeah. And I guess uh there was there was
45:00a number of athletes there I think who
45:02were natural as well and they were
45:04beating
45:05>> some of the I guess unnatural athletes
45:08and seemed like quite consistently.
45:11>> What why do you think that is? Uh I
45:14guess
45:14>> well it it depends on it depends on the
45:16athlete. Um the the pool of athletes
45:20that they chose from had a very large
45:22variance of ability. Um, Hunter
45:25Armstrong for example, he was the
45:27previous world record holder in the 50
45:29backstroke and the people he was up
45:31against were people who had never made a
45:34final for example. And so that talent
45:36gap already was pretty big. Um, throw
45:40the suits on for both of them. They they
45:42both like get that advantage of the
45:44suit. M.
45:44>> And then yeah, in terms of the drugs,
45:46like the other ones did a PB, but the
45:50the talent level of Hunter compared to
45:52the other ones was was too big. So like
45:55there's nuance in
45:56>> in it's I think it's a I think it's a
45:59lazy conclusion to just think that you
46:02throw drugs into anyone and they're
46:04going to be able to do 958 for the 100
46:07running, for example. Espe like if
46:09someone's never run before or if
46:11someone's been semi okay at it. Um, I
46:14think, yeah, I think that's a I think
46:15that's a very lazy conclusion that you
46:17can come to. There's a lot more nuance
46:18to it.
46:19>> When I was doing research on you, my own
46:21AI literally said to me, uh, you know,
46:25everyone at the hands enhanced games is
46:27working on their body and Cam is working
46:29on himself, which was like I gave it no
46:32context to that. I thought that was a
46:34pretty cool
46:36>> statement. I like your AI. [laughter]
46:37>> Yeah.
46:38Um, so
46:41yeah, so I guess we've touched on like,
46:45you know, athletes paid enough and we've
46:47touched on whether the flip side to the
46:48games, you know, might change that. Um,
46:52one other thing I wanted to touch on was
46:54the fact I actually call you Batman
46:56because I um, when I just have watched
47:00you, you know, you're such a
47:02intelligent, downto-earth guy and, you
47:04know, like Bruce Wayne. And then even
47:07watching you again at the training
47:08session this morning, you kind of get in
47:11the water and it's like your body like
47:13expands. It's almost
47:20coming out of the pool and everything
47:21else. And I guess it made me it raised
47:25the question for me on why swimming is
47:29not as cool as running. Like do you can
47:32you
47:33>> definitely isn't as cool as running.
47:34I've got to say that. Um I think
47:36athletics do a much better job in
47:40showcasing hype for a sport. Um, running
47:44as well. Everyone's born walking.
47:46Everyone's born running. They can do
47:47what they can do, but you got to learn
47:48to swim. So, there's already friction
47:51right off the bat. Um, but also like
47:53running, you have the 100 meters. It's a
47:56sub 10second full entertainment
47:59exhibition effectively, whereas swimming
48:01has just been stuck in the dark ages.
48:03And it's just so endurance focused. We
48:06only they only introduced the 53 in the
48:08'9s. Um they've only like this this
48:11coming Olympics is the first time
48:13they're putting in the 50 fly 50 back
48:15and 50 breast at an Olympic games. And
48:17>> they're the short the short sharp events
48:20where you're not sitting back watching a
48:22400 where like at the 200 mark you know
48:24exact you could pit you could write down
48:26first eighth place instantly without
48:27even thinking about it that much. But
48:29you're watching a 50 m event you don't
48:32know who's going to win 99% of the time.
48:35And so it's missing a lot of that
48:36entertainment exhibitionary factor to
48:40it. Um I have been a a huge proponent of
48:43the 25 m events, 25 freestyle, which
48:46would be our coralate to 100. So I do a
48:4925 free in 9.2 and the 100 guys do it in
48:529 seconds. And so that would be our
48:54coralate. And I think that would be very
48:56much more enticing and entertaining to
48:59get around. You could hype that up so
49:01much better. Um, I've even had ideas
49:03where like you can take concepts from
49:05from long jump for example. Um, or
49:08discus or like the field events where
49:10you come in and you've got eight people
49:13in a world championship final for 25s,
49:15but you have three attempts and you go
49:16one at a time. Um, and you could turn it
49:18into this massive exhibition event like
49:22you have like live music, like metal
49:23bands playing in between, all that type
49:25of stuff.
49:26>> Um, similar to like a deadlift
49:28competition or something. And yeah, I
49:29think swimming is just boring and it's
49:31stuck in it's stuck in the dark ages and
49:34they there's a lot of inertia for
49:36change. Um or I guess there's a lot of
49:39purists around it that that don't want
49:41it to change. And so and so
49:44>> I just think yeah, we're we're far
49:46behind athletics both in terms of
49:47training philosophy and in terms of how
49:49we present it.
49:51which is wildet
49:58to France or NBA, NFL, anything like
50:00that as well. So that's my that's my
50:03thought.
50:03>> Yeah, I was sort of thinking maybe it
50:05was accessibility as well was
50:07potentially one reason.
50:08>> Well, 100% as well cuz like there's not
50:11many we're fortunate here in Southeast
50:13Queensland. We have infinite pools
50:14around here, but
50:16>> like some parts of Australia, you just
50:17don't get a pool. And then you go
50:18worldwide the the there there are many
50:22places worldwide where you just can't
50:23swim or you got to swim in um lakes,
50:26oceans, ba basically non-olympic pools.
50:29Whereas
50:30>> if you got two legs, you can just run on
50:32a flat ground and you could pretty much
50:34do that most places in the world. So
50:36>> yeah, I even I was I'm going to reveal
50:38your idea. Hydrox,
50:40>> but maybe that's what it means. If there
50:42was a hydrox, I guess with a swimming
50:45component.
50:46>> Yeah, I' I'd get around that. I I don't
50:47know how you do it. There's heaps of
50:49ways you could do it. Um like whether
50:50you have
50:51>> but like a weighted swim like what we
50:53did
50:53>> instead of wall balls you have you have
50:54to do 25 meters with 9 kilos or
50:57something like that as resistance or
50:59whatever it may be. But yeah, I reckon a
51:00hydrox would go hard.
51:02>> I like it. Uh
51:05do you think your maths and physics has
51:08actually helped you your degree that
51:09you've got
51:11>> you know to be more analytical in the
51:14space?
51:14>> Yep. So basically
51:18to see the when I first started this
51:20stuff, when I wanted to put all of my
51:21ideas together, I had the one goal of
51:25swimming one lap as fast as I can and I
51:27had to reverse engineer that. And so the
51:29ability to break that that one 20 second
51:32swim down into its component parts and
51:34then to break them down into things that
51:36are two steps remove where if I fix this
51:39that means I can then go on and fix this
51:41which then allows me to then go on and
51:43fix this which will then make me faster.
51:46um 100% that comes from my physics and
51:49mathematics background and just being
51:51able to have the toolbox of of theory
51:55and ideas to tackle things like that and
51:57then even directly as well. So when I
52:00started this resistance sprinting had
52:02been around. People had the equipment to
52:05do it and some people have tapped into
52:07it here and there but there was no no
52:09one had taken it seriously as their main
52:11form of training and no one had any
52:14blueprint on what type of load do you
52:16use, how many reps do you use and and
52:18all this type of stuff. And so I had to
52:21I had to start from scratch and figure
52:23that out. And one of the main things
52:24that we had to tackle was the more
52:26weight you put on the more you change
52:29your technique while you're sprinting.
52:30And that means there is some threshold
52:33or weight cut off where after that
52:35weight, the technique is too far removed
52:37from what you actually want to train
52:39when you're sprinting without weight.
52:41>> And so I call that your your
52:441RM
52:46effectively. And so I had to figure out,
52:48okay, what what the hell what is that
52:50threshold? How the hell do I measure it?
52:52And so I came up with an idea where I I
52:55started with zero kilos. I added uh one
52:58kilo increments, did 20 meter sprints in
53:01between for each weight. That allowed me
53:03to pull a velocity graph from that. And
53:06then from my physics or mathematics
53:08background, I could then normalize the
53:09data to then compare the graph for 8
53:13kilos compared to 1 kilo compared to
53:15five compared to body weight. And
53:18depending on the shape of the graph
53:20after it was normalized, I could then
53:22see how much it varied or differed from
53:25my body weight graph. And so once it got
53:27over the the literature said if it was a
53:3030% difference in the coefficient of
53:32variation between between all of them,
53:34um that's your cut off. And after that
53:36it ceases to really be true freestyle
53:39swimming. Um and so yeah, my physics and
53:41math background allowed me to find out
53:43that it was 8 kilos when I when I
53:45measured that. is 9 kilos now. Um, so my
53:48I've upped my 1RM in in swimming terms.
53:50Um, but yeah, 100% it's been so useful.
53:54>> Yeah, look, for me, I always have
53:56thought and said to, you know, even
53:58young engineers that are looking to get
53:59into university that I I guess my degree
54:03taught me how to learn is what I what I
54:06always say.
54:06>> Exactly. And uh I think that's a
54:08powerful thing because once you're sort
54:10of out in the big wide world knowing
54:12where to start, where to actually start
54:15to learn to figure things out.
54:17>> It wasn't really about memorizing math
54:20equations.
54:20>> Well, that's the thing like exams in
54:22uni, you had what 12 weeks in your
54:25semester to learn, which means you knew
54:27the topics you were learning, which
54:28means you knew the type of questions you
54:29were you were going to get. It's very
54:31contained. Whereas you come out and
54:33you're doing something in the outside
54:34world. If there's some problem you want
54:36to fix, there is no boundary that you
54:39can work within that tells you, okay,
54:41this is the right thing to do. You
54:42you're literally on your own.
54:45>> And so, yeah, like the ability to learn
54:47and construct that boundary from
54:49scratch. Um, and I guess have that
54:51ability to guess the best possible path
54:54forward goes a long way.
54:56>> Yep. Agree. Uh, a big one that I've
55:00always noticed about you is you're
55:01you're willing to give away IP,
55:04>> which to most people is quite a scary
55:07thing, you know, especially companies.
55:09>> And I've always found that fascinating
55:11and wanted to understand that more.
55:13>> So, it's a few things. Um, I' I'll start
55:17firstly with the the personal side. I
55:19guess I had a huge chip on my shoulder
55:21from spending so long uh putting or
55:26pouring my heart and soul into the
55:28traditional program, feeling like it's
55:31not working, trying to speak up about
55:32it, and basically being shoved to the
55:35side. Um, and so the chip on my shoulder
55:38was I'm coming back. I'm doing it in
55:40this way. It makes so much sense to me.
55:42I'm just going to let everyone know
55:44because if they know the actual inner
55:46workings of what's going on is going to
55:48help a lot of people who are in the same
55:50position and also the ones who are who
55:52are gatekeeping the the the meta the the
55:55traditional way to do things maybe
55:56they'll understand and and change their
55:58ways and it'll influence the sport for
56:00the better.
56:01>> Um so that's the first one. The second
56:03one was just pure excitement. Um, I I'd
56:07been in the sport internationally for
56:09for 10 years at the time when I came
56:11back. Um, and when I first started, it
56:15was so novel and so new. Like the idea
56:17that I'd get in the water and I wouldn't
56:20even touch the wall at the other end
56:21during the entire session compared to
56:24I'd get in and I'd be doing 120 laps,
56:26for example. Um it was just so exciting
56:30that I wanted other swimmers and other
56:31people who knew to share in that and how
56:35exotic it was. So that was sick. Like
56:37that feeling is very akin to u you're 18
56:40and you discover the bench press with
56:42your mates at school for the very first
56:43time. Like it's just so exciting. Um you
56:46you're track like you're doing all these
56:47PBS left, right, and center. You're
56:49throwing weight on, you're sprinting. It
56:50just gives you that same feeling.
56:52>> Um so I was super excited about that.
56:54And then the other thing was throughout
56:57my entire career like conversation
56:59conversations with my mom with other
57:01people um getting to the bottom of the
57:04why I swim. Obviously there's there's
57:08the the game of wanting to win world
57:11championships, wanting to win Olympics,
57:13um wanting to set world records and and
57:15that's that's definitely there. But
57:18there was also wanting the desire to
57:21influence a sport and have a positive
57:23impact in some form or another. Um when
57:26I was younger, I initially and I guess
57:29naively thought the way you do that is
57:31to just win every event for a long
57:33period of time and then people call you
57:35um the go like Phelps and and Katy
57:38Leiddki and they have certainly
57:39influenced and changed the sport. But I
57:43very quickly realized I couldn't do
57:44that. I didn't get the gold medals. I
57:46didn't do this and that um throughout
57:47the early stages of of my career. And so
57:50I had to I had to discover a new way
57:53that would actually have a beneficial
57:56positive influence to the sport.
57:58>> And for a long time I didn't know what
57:59that was until I stumbled across this.
58:02Um and initially I was I was excited
58:04about it because it was different. Maybe
58:05it would work, maybe it wouldn't, I
58:07don't know. But as I got deeper and
58:10deeper into this and and very quickly
58:12saw how potent this type of training
58:14was, um the idea to release that and
58:18open source as much as of that as I can
58:20out into the public would basically
58:23create this meta game that is nested
58:26outside of of winning an Olympic gold,
58:28winning a world championship uh gold
58:30medal. and it would be this kind of
58:33parallel pursuit of of changing the
58:36sport from a different angle or or a
58:38different point of view. And that's
58:40something that gave me a lot of purpose.
58:41>> I think it's a great thing. It's, you
58:43know, takes integrity to do that,
58:45especially when there's competitors out
58:47there that
58:48>> it's scary, that's for sure. Um maybe
58:51yeah maybe I was I was a bit too quick
58:53to jump the gun but like if I sit and
58:57think about okay the fear of maybe XYZ
58:59is going to adopt this they might beat
59:01me at this this event that gets
59:03outweighed pretty quickly to the several
59:06thousand messages of people I've I've
59:08I've messaged me in terms of they've
59:11come back from quitting the sport after
59:13a decade of being out hated seeing a
59:15pool. Um very similar position to what
59:17you're in. So, I mean, if you want to
59:18come back and do a 53 PB, it'd be good.
59:20But a lot of them sent messages of, "I
59:23hated the sport, but I saw what you were
59:24doing and it intrigued me. I got back
59:26in. I love it. Like, I've just done a
59:28lifetime best or like I can go to the
59:30pool and like my kids are joining in and
59:32it's just so much fun." And that really
59:35quickly outweighs the fear of, oh, maybe
59:37maybe this guy's going to drop point4 of
59:39a second and be up near me um by the
59:41time LA comes around. So I think it's
59:44interesting cuz you one of my questions
59:46I didn't actually write it down in the
59:47end was around you know what happens
59:50after the the gold medals and you know a
59:52lot of athletes we see all the time
59:54struggle with that
59:56>> but you creating something a little bit
59:58bigger than just yourself in that sense
1:00:01I think could pad you a little bit from
1:00:03that situation.
1:00:04>> It definitely shields you a little bit.
1:00:05There is there is a certain amount of
1:00:10what you have to go through post
1:00:12Olympics for example that you it's just
1:00:14simply unavoidable. It's just the the
1:00:17fact of the matter is the process and
1:00:19the journey you go through that leads
1:00:20into the Olympics and then what happens
1:00:22immediately after and how fast that
1:00:24happens during that period of the
1:00:26Olympics. You just simply have to go
1:00:28through it. Um and so there's a little
1:00:31bit there where yeah you've just got to
1:00:32face it. But despite that, I've had a
1:00:35much easier time going against that by
1:00:38falling into that space by by Yeah.
1:00:42basically jump like I'd finish a world
1:00:44championships, I'd finish Olympics, 2
1:00:45weeks later I'd jump on a podcast um
1:00:48like in the swimming community and just
1:00:50basically dump all of my ideas out there
1:00:52that I tried this year. What worked?
1:00:54What didn't work? This was really good.
1:00:56This is how I did this. And it
1:00:58definitely went a long way to bolster
1:01:00that. Yeah, it seems like, you know,
1:01:02giving back for you is what's satisfying
1:01:05for you.
1:01:05>> Yeah. Well, I'm I'm in the process of
1:01:07developing something at the moment where
1:01:10uh I'm going to I've I've created an
1:01:13online community through this app called
1:01:16Circle App. It's kind of like it's
1:01:17Discordesque. Um, and basically what I'm
1:01:21offering is between now and LA, I'm
1:01:23going to have a two-tiered system and
1:01:25I'm putting every session that I'm doing
1:01:28into this community so people can join.
1:01:30Um, it's going to be obviously there'll
1:01:32be a pay wall to it cuz um, IC aren't
1:01:34paying anything and all that stuff. But
1:01:36despite that, I'm putting every session
1:01:39that I'm doing in real time. So, if I've
1:01:41I've got this strength block coming up,
1:01:43for example, I'll I'll lay out my Monday
1:01:45to Saturday everything I'm doing. Um,
1:01:47I'll do Q&As's. And then on the the
1:01:50second tier, I'm going to put all of my
1:01:51rep times, all of my weights, all of my
1:01:53splits, my my goal times and my goals
1:01:56for each block, the the methodology
1:01:58behind why I've structured it this way.
1:02:00Um, when it's time to taper, I'm going
1:02:02to put my taper um theories and ideas
1:02:05out there, and this is what I'm doing on
1:02:06these days. basically be fully
1:02:08transparent to allow people to sign up
1:02:11and basically go along the entire
1:02:14journey to an Olympic games of someone
1:02:16who is the current world record holder
1:02:18and wanting to defend their title. So
1:02:21like I think about when I was 14
1:02:23desperately trying to figure out like
1:02:24what was Michael Phelps doing in
1:02:26training, what was Ryan Locky doing in
1:02:27training. Um, if like if I could just
1:02:30have joined a community like a Discord
1:02:32community and just literally seen his
1:02:34day-to-day sessions, um, the weeks where
1:02:37he was just on fire, killing it, the
1:02:39weeks where he was in a hole and
1:02:41spiraling mentally and not really sure
1:02:43what would like it would just be
1:02:44absolutely incredible. So, um, yeah, I'm
1:02:47currently basically going to take the
1:02:50open sourceness to it to its extreme and
1:02:52and yeah, literally anyone can train
1:02:54alongside me. Yeah, Jake and I saw that.
1:02:56We saw that post and thought it was kind
1:02:58of amazing. Again, I come back to are
1:03:01there competitors of yours who are sort
1:03:02of using this information now? Like, do
1:03:05you know if they're
1:03:06>> I'm 100% sure they if I when when I
1:03:09launch, I'm sure there'll be some people
1:03:10in there um copying it or taking
1:03:12inspiration from it. Um but despite
1:03:15that, I've had literal competitors who
1:03:17have adopted the theories and what I'm
1:03:20doing, but on a day-to-day basis doing
1:03:22it in their own twist or their own way.
1:03:24And they'll they'll send me messages
1:03:27quite frequently about, hey, when you do
1:03:29this or when you do that, like what do
1:03:30you do? What do you experience? Like we
1:03:31did this and struggle with this. And I
1:03:34just have an open conversation like, oh
1:03:35yeah, when I did this, like I just tell
1:03:38them my answers to it. And so like
1:03:40there's a guy who was in the world
1:03:41championship final last year who after
1:03:44Paris decided to do it went from 219 to
1:03:46214 dropped half a second within the
1:03:48year and went from a I think he missed a
1:03:51semi-final in Paris to I think it was
1:03:54fourth place at the world championships.
1:03:56Um 2.3 behind what I did in that season.
1:03:59Um and straight after his coach was me
1:04:02messaging me like oh we did this we
1:04:03struggled with this like what do you
1:04:04think? I was like okay like this is what
1:04:06I did. So, I mean, it's pretty it's
1:04:08idiotic in a sense, but it's it's I
1:04:10don't know. I It's enjoyable.
1:04:12>> No Trojan horses. I was tempted to
1:04:14think.
1:04:14>> No. Yeah. Yeah. There's We've made jokes
1:04:16about that like people have done that in
1:04:18the past. In 200 I think it was 2007 or
1:04:21something. something called the Gatorade
1:04:23challenge on YouTube and the the past 50
1:04:26and 100 free world record holder and a
1:04:28few other very good sprinters of that
1:04:30era decided to put up a YouTube video of
1:04:32their training and it was like skull
1:04:34gatorade do 100 max skull gay do 100 max
1:04:37and whoever vomited last won and that
1:04:40was their session. Um and that was their
1:04:42Trojan horse as well but no none of that
1:04:44for me. Um, yeah,
1:04:47>> I think I think it's really big of you.
1:04:48Look, we we worry about this all the
1:04:51time and, you know, particularly with
1:04:52some of the community stuff we do and,
1:04:55you know, we're always questioning,
1:04:56should we should we put this out there?
1:04:58And, you know, the answer is always
1:05:00obviously yes,
1:05:02>> despite the fact, you know, competition
1:05:04might pick that up. For us, we think
1:05:06that's a great thing. The more people
1:05:08that see, you know, what we're doing and
1:05:10and, you know, having the privilege of
1:05:12being able to document it properly,
1:05:15uh is just has just such a massive
1:05:17effect, you know, on all these
1:05:19institutions we deal with all the time.
1:05:21>> Well, it it has a it has a a rebound
1:05:24effect where you establish yourself as
1:05:27one of the leading expert voices as
1:05:29well. If if you're putting out good
1:05:31practice and practice that is obviously
1:05:34working, then people will copy it,
1:05:36they'll go along with it, and then it
1:05:38will work for them. And then you become
1:05:40an established voice of reason within
1:05:42the field. And then you can do a lot of
1:05:43good with that as well long term. Um, so
1:05:46yeah, I'm I'm a big proponent of that. I
1:05:48had another idea about that, but it's
1:05:50just yeah, lost my mind.
1:05:51>> It'll come back. Uh,
1:05:54>> oh no, sorry, it's just come to me.
1:05:56Basically, look, I'm 32 as well. Um,
1:06:00maybe it would be different if I was 19,
1:06:0221, and I had another 15 years left in
1:06:04the sport. U, but again, being a bit
1:06:07older, I think, also helps with the idea
1:06:09of giving back to the sport in that
1:06:11sense. Um whether or not I'm at the
1:06:14world record level or international
1:06:16podium level for the next uh 6 years or
1:06:19so going into Brisbane, I don't know. Um
1:06:21but definitely age I think has a factor
1:06:23as well.
1:06:24>> Yeah. Well, that goes to my next
1:06:25question. You are over 30 now with a
1:06:29kid.
1:06:30>> And uh how are the energy levels cuz
1:06:32mine are certainly declining. Y
1:06:35>> and you know is there any tips around
1:06:38you know particularly longevity and
1:06:39maintaining energy levels at this sort
1:06:42of age? I mean a lot of you know elite
1:06:45swimmers uh look back on this now and
1:06:48sort of go this is unprecedented to have
1:06:50I guess swimmers over 30 breaking world
1:06:53records.
1:06:54>> So energy levels have they're definitely
1:06:56different to when I was late teens in my
1:06:5820s. Um, not detrimentally so, it's just
1:07:04different in the sense where back then I
1:07:07could I'd bounce off the walls all day.
1:07:09I you you wouldn't stop. Like you you
1:07:11had an infinite wellspring of energy.
1:07:14You could use it for whatever you want.
1:07:16But the the intensity of that energy was
1:07:20limited. Whereas I think that's changed
1:07:24to the point where right now I don't
1:07:26feel like I have that infinite energy to
1:07:28go and go and go. But if I'm smart with
1:07:31it, when it's time to go, the level of
1:07:34intensity that I can go with is much
1:07:37more than what I could do in the past.
1:07:39Um, so I mean I guess well it's like
1:07:43it's like going from a machine gun to a
1:07:45sniper type of thing, sniper bullet
1:07:47where like you can just constantly go to
1:07:49like one shot but it's like it's a it's
1:07:51a beauty of a shot. And so I feel like
1:07:53that's where I'm at at the moment from
1:07:54an energy point of view. Um I've heard
1:07:57stories that once you get pretty deep
1:07:59into your 30s though that starts to
1:08:00change as well or again um but maybe I
1:08:04got a few years until that. the research
1:08:06as well like for men in their 30s they
1:08:08peak with their strength well into their
1:08:1130 like like 34 35 and my my whole
1:08:15philosophy around what I'm doing with
1:08:16sprinting is that sprinting is a
1:08:18strength-based skill and so my whole
1:08:20approach to getting better is to get
1:08:23stronger uh not only in the gym but
1:08:25within the shape of my freestyle stroke
1:08:27in the water the stronger you are means
1:08:30the higher the ceiling for your power
1:08:32output as well and so I think there's a
1:08:34correlation in that. So if we peak into
1:08:36our 30s, why can't we peak in a
1:08:38strengthbased sport as well into your
1:08:4130s?
1:08:42>> You mentioned that you spent very little
1:08:46time in the gym and did a number of
1:08:48training sessions. I don't know the
1:08:50exact period and you noticed that your
1:08:52pull-up strength literally increased ma
1:08:55massively
1:08:56>> just from swimming.
1:08:58>> Yeah. So again, this was in the period
1:09:00where I was just starting back. It was
1:09:02after it was 9 months after coming back.
1:09:04I'd just done my first world champs, but
1:09:07I hadn't done a pure resisted sprinting
1:09:11block and I just wanted to know what
1:09:13would happen if I did it. So, I stopped
1:09:16all of my upper body gym because with
1:09:18the resistive sprinting, doing it three
1:09:19times a week or I was I was doing it
1:09:21every second day. So, one week, three
1:09:23times, one week, four times. Um, your
1:09:25elbows would flare up. So, I had to cut
1:09:26the the pull-ups and all the upper body
1:09:28stuff. At that point in time, I had a 50
1:09:31kilo 1RM uh in the gym for my pull-up. I
1:09:35stopped that. I did a month of every
1:09:37second day.
1:09:37>> Just for people listening, that means
1:09:39you were weight you were adding 50 kilos
1:09:41of
1:09:41>> my body weight plus 50 kilos.
1:09:44>> Um and then I did a month of pure
1:09:46resisted sprinting reps between 10 to 25
1:09:50m at different weights, anywhere between
1:09:543 kilos and 10 kilos. um all out max
1:09:58full rest um ready to go and then when I
1:10:01came back after a month of not touching
1:10:03a pull-up I could do a 65 kilo pull-up.
1:10:06So I added 15 kilo I don't know what
1:10:08percentage that is but uh 15 kilos on my
1:10:111RM by not doing pull-ups just by
1:10:14sprinting under resistance in the water.
1:10:16So if that's not an example of sprinting
1:10:19being a strength-based skill then I
1:10:21don't know what is. Yeah, I still I try
1:10:23to do sprinting once a week like on the
1:10:25beach actually barefoot on the beach and
1:10:27I still love it and
1:10:29>> yeah I think we don't you know once you
1:10:31get to our age you you barely sprint you
1:10:34know as a non-Olympic athlete.
1:10:36>> No I I can't remember the last time I
1:10:38like ran sprint as well. Um, and there's
1:10:41like seen I've seen clips of like
1:10:43Huberman and um like people at the Altus
1:10:47like running academy over in the US and
1:10:48stuff talking about how there's a strong
1:10:50correlation between your longevity and
1:10:54general health
1:10:55>> and the ability to sprint.
1:10:57>> Yep. No, I totally agree. So that's
1:10:59probably the tip. How do you balance
1:11:02like family and being an elite athlete?
1:11:05Cuz it's quite a I guess a selfish
1:11:07>> It is sport sometimes. It's a selfish
1:11:10sport. It's a big ju just position. But
1:11:14fortunately as well, it's
1:11:16multiffactorial. But the the way my
1:11:18weekly training is laid out, it's it's
1:11:22not like I have to go and train at 5:00
1:11:23a.m. and I'm away for 3 hours. I'm back
1:11:25for 2 hours. I go I have to sleep. I'm
1:11:27back at the pool again that night. Maybe
1:11:29I've got a gym session in the in the
1:11:30middle of the day. Um I train once a
1:11:32day. Um it's usually around that 10 to
1:11:3511 or mid midday type of part of the
1:11:38day. and I'm out for let's say 2 to four
1:11:40hours at most. Um so I've got the whole
1:11:43morning, got the whole afternoon. Um and
1:11:46so from a like we've strategically been
1:11:48able to construct a week that at least
1:11:51is somewhat beneficial to just not like
1:11:54permanently being tapped out, having to
1:11:56having to race and having to train. Um
1:11:58more importantly, you have to have a
1:12:00wife that understands what you're doing.
1:12:02um that is the backbone to the actual
1:12:04family household and when it's time to
1:12:07go training she's like yep you go like
1:12:09absolutely give it your all like go you
1:12:11good thing um don't worry about us I've
1:12:14got I've got a down pat like all that
1:12:16type of stuff so you 100% need an
1:12:18absolute ripper of a wife for that um
1:12:21and then it's really just being able to
1:12:23compartmentalize like I'll I'll wake up
1:12:25I'll spend the morning with Maddie with
1:12:27the baby 10:00 rolls around it's like
1:12:29okay I'll get in the car go to training
1:12:31on the way to training is you lock into
1:12:33to to training mode. I'm in that for
1:12:35however long that is. When I come back,
1:12:37as soon as the car's parked in the
1:12:39garage, it's back to back to dad mode.
1:12:41Within 4 minutes of walking in the in
1:12:42the in the door, I'm on the I'm on the
1:12:44floor in the play pen playing with
1:12:45Heartley and just doing other stuff. And
1:12:47doesn't matter if I like hit a world
1:12:49record in training in a 25 or had a
1:12:52really terrible session and and just
1:12:54like was just absolutely in the pits and
1:12:56the trenches, it doesn't matter what
1:12:58happens there. you just switch off and
1:12:59you move into family mode when you get
1:13:01back.
1:13:02>> Um, and so I think I think that
1:13:03definitely goes a long way. And also the
1:13:07the change in perspective that swimming
1:13:10is also a job as opposed to um a pure
1:13:13hobby, a pure this and that. And so it's
1:13:16also like when I tap out for training
1:13:18for 3 or 4 hours on this day for a
1:13:20sprint session for example, um it's
1:13:23basically that's securing the income as
1:13:26well for the family. That's that's
1:13:27providing for Maddie, for Hartley, so
1:13:29that they can live. They can they can
1:13:31have the agency to do what they want to
1:13:32do when Hartley grows up and and what
1:13:34Mattiey's doing now and whatever she
1:13:36wants to do in the future as well. So, a
1:13:38few of them combined.
1:13:39>> Has that changed the way you look at
1:13:41training a little bit, having your first
1:13:44child?
1:13:44>> It definitely has. And also just the the
1:13:47season, the general racing season. So,
1:13:49um Comworth Games are coming up. I'm
1:13:51going to be away for for 3 weeks. Um, I
1:13:55realized last week, so me and Maddie
1:13:57went out for dinner. So, we had a
1:13:59babysitter look after Harley for two
1:14:01hours. I felt like [ __ ] leaving the
1:14:04baby. It was the first time we left the
1:14:05baby, leaving the baby for 2 hours. He
1:14:07was real sad, like cried as we walked
1:14:09out and we were just going to dinner for
1:14:112 hours. And I have to think that I'm
1:14:13away for 3 weeks and I'm just I've just
1:14:15got that image in my head. And so, I'm
1:14:17dreading that now. I've never had to
1:14:19even contemplate that for any any type
1:14:22of tour in the past. And and right now
1:14:25like I'm not thinking about okay am I
1:14:27going to be in in form to go a world
1:14:29record at Commonworth Games? Am I going
1:14:31to get a gold medal? The only thing
1:14:32that's on my mind is like what's H
1:14:33Heartley going to think? Is he going to
1:14:35remember me gone when I get back? What's
1:14:37his relationship to me going to be like?
1:14:39Like is he going to be the same guy or
1:14:41is he going to be a bit standoffish? Do
1:14:43we have to rebuild it again? and you
1:14:45spiral like like that's definitely
1:14:46something that is that's definitely one
1:14:48of the harder parts of of this and
1:14:50probably for me the hardest part and
1:14:53then I look past that I've got a World
1:14:55Cup tour in October. I've got World
1:14:56Chocolates at the end of the year.
1:14:58>> Um
1:14:59>> yeah, I I I that's still something I
1:15:01actually need to figure out and manage.
1:15:03>> I think you'll be fine. I spent
1:15:06[laughter]
1:15:06>> I spent the first three years doing
1:15:09Yeah. almost three weeks on, one week
1:15:12off
1:15:12>> for for three years and it was it was
1:15:16hard like leaving leaving sort of but I
1:15:19must admit you come back and just the
1:15:22level of appreciation you have for your
1:15:24family is like profound. I can't even
1:15:26describe it.
1:15:27>> Well and like fortunate enough to we
1:15:30have FaceTime so I could get on
1:15:31FaceTime. I can see hardly I can see
1:15:33Maddie. I don't know. Like that would
1:15:35have been very hard back in the day.
1:15:37Yeah. Pre iPhones, pre tech technology.
1:15:40Um maybe. Yeah. Maybe it'll be all
1:15:42right. But
1:15:42>> wait till you see how
1:15:43>> I just got to go through it.
1:15:44>> Yeah. Yeah. They change so much just in
1:15:473 weeks. It's like mindb blowing.
1:15:49>> That is not what you want to say.
1:15:50[laughter]
1:15:51>> Um
1:15:53>> how important is it that we support the
1:15:55athletes leading into the games? Again,
1:15:57I go back to, you know, the culture of
1:16:00Australia and how awesome it is that we
1:16:02have such a sport-led culture, you know,
1:16:06like what are your thoughts on that? You
1:16:08you sort of mentioned before that and I
1:16:10also believe this that the the the
1:16:12athletes are probably the most important
1:16:14part of the games. You don't have a
1:16:16successful games without the athletes.
1:16:18You can have the best infrastructure in
1:16:19the world and the most glamorous opening
1:16:21ceremony, everything else, and you know,
1:16:23if your athletes don't have a good time
1:16:26and and and don't pick up some medals,
1:16:28then the whole thing is a flop really.
1:16:31>> Yeah.
1:16:31>> So, yeah, how important is that? And how
1:16:34can we support them more?
1:16:37>> Um, well, yeah, it's it's at the crux of
1:16:39the entire thing. There's many athletes
1:16:41out there that have a job alongside
1:16:44training, the full-time job. Um, there's
1:16:46a few that have two jobs that they do
1:16:48alongside their actual training. So,
1:16:50some of them get up at 4:00 a.m., do
1:16:52their training, go to work all day, come
1:16:54back, train again. Um, there was a
1:16:56swimmer in 2021. He's still around,
1:16:58still swims, doesn't have to do this
1:17:00anymore, but um I'm pretty sure he was a
1:17:03he was a bricky or something like that.
1:17:04He trained for the 200 fly. So, he'd get
1:17:07up at 5:00 a.m. He'd train 6K, like half
1:17:10of it's butterfly, which is insane. He'd
1:17:12go lay bricks all day, come back in the
1:17:14afternoon, and he's got a a butterfly
1:17:17threshold session or something like
1:17:19that. Um, and that was his life. And he
1:17:21he went he he made Olympic finals, he
1:17:24got medals in the relays and everything,
1:17:25which is incredible.
1:17:26>> Um, but the fact that he had to do that
1:17:29is insane to me. And that's swimming,
1:17:31which is one of our like a better sports
1:17:34in terms of income potential and
1:17:36opportunity. So there's a lot of sports
1:17:38around that don't even get that
1:17:39opportunity or that platform to to pivot
1:17:41from. So 100% I think there needs to be
1:17:46>> a lottery like some other countries.
1:17:49>> I was going to say there are definitely
1:17:50more optimized ways that that as a
1:17:52nation we can approach the ability to
1:17:54fund raise or or raise capital for
1:17:56athletes who are wanting to go to the
1:17:58Olympics who are already going to the
1:18:00Olympics. Um countries like the UK,
1:18:02China, etc. use um a lottery system. So
1:18:05you have a national lottery and a
1:18:06percentage of the revenue from that
1:18:08lottery gets funneled into virtually
1:18:10athlete support, athlete salaries and
1:18:12everything as well. Um and so I'm I'm
1:18:15100% sure that there are pathways that
1:18:18you can go down. Um I recently spoke at
1:18:20a tennis Australia Australia event. The
1:18:24event basically was a it was a hackathon
1:18:27where they had teams who would basically
1:18:30pitch their business idea to Tennis
1:18:33Australia. It was like a Shark Tank
1:18:34style thing.
1:18:35>> Um, and the idea was basically some form
1:18:39or another related to raising revenue
1:18:41for Tennis Australia and for the
1:18:43athletes around it to do what they need
1:18:44to do. Um, which was incredible. One of
1:18:47one of the things that they have done in
1:18:49the past, one of their initiatives was
1:18:51there are hundreds of I was going to say
1:18:54hundreds thousands tens of thousands of
1:18:56of spare tennis courts that were just
1:18:59sitting unused regularly around
1:19:01Australia that were just doing nothing.
1:19:03And so Tennis Australia basically
1:19:06developed this infrastructure that laid
1:19:09on top of all of them. They captured I
1:19:10think they captured around 70% of the
1:19:14total tennis courts available in
1:19:15Australia where you download an app, you
1:19:18pay for an hour, 2 hours on the court.
1:19:20You get a pin, you rock up, no like no
1:19:23middleman in between, just the app, put
1:19:25the pin in, you get your time on the
1:19:26court and that's it. And so it unlocked
1:19:29the ability to have so many more people
1:19:32participate in tennis, which obviously
1:19:34helps grassroots. It helps more people
1:19:36get active involved and everything. But
1:19:39they were able to get a percentage of
1:19:41every single booking for their revenue
1:19:43for Tennis Australia to then go on and
1:19:45develop themselves, develop the
1:19:47Australian Open, use it for this and
1:19:49that. Um, and just general ideas around
1:19:51that where like swimming could easily do
1:19:53something like that. There's so many
1:19:53pools in Australia where you had
1:19:55something like that. you you you book a
1:19:57lane etc. Swimming Australia is in
1:19:58control of the infrastructure or the QA
1:20:01the AOC whatever it may be and then that
1:20:04gets funneled back to um let's say age
1:20:07groupers wanting to go to a national age
1:20:08or people wanting to go to the Olympics
1:20:10or something. So
1:20:12>> there's opportunities there. Um it's
1:20:14just yeah it's it's just slow moving.
1:20:16There's a lot of inertia around.
1:20:18>> No, I love that idea. I think for me as
1:20:21well like that reduces the friction to
1:20:23going to the swimming pool which was you
1:20:25know opens up swimming a little bit
1:20:26more. So, you know, I think that would
1:20:29be cool and I could sort of line myself
1:20:31up with another slow engineer and be
1:20:33[laughter] in the same
1:20:33>> lane 1080s on pool deck.
1:20:38>> Diet, ice baths, creatine, caffeine,
1:20:43>> give us all the secrets, subs.
1:20:45>> I know everyone will be screaming for
1:20:47this.
1:20:47>> Creatine. Um, I I know we've been told
1:20:51basically the the the protocol is you go
1:20:54through a 2 to four week period. you you
1:20:56have like 10 20 grams. You kind of
1:20:58saturate your system. Then you can drop
1:21:00back to 5 g. Um I just go 10 g a day. Um
1:21:04creatine is obviously it's very good for
1:21:07your brain but really good for explosive
1:21:08sharp output as well.
1:21:10>> Any breaks or not really?
1:21:12>> Uh like I'll miss a few days here and
1:21:14there. Um but generally speaking I want
1:21:17I want to be having that daily. Um
1:21:20nutrition wise I
1:21:23am not the best advocate for this. Um,
1:21:25up until last year, um, I was just an
1:21:28Uber Eatats guy. Uh, I
1:21:30>> What about breakfast? Like when do you
1:21:32eat breakfast? Do you fast? Is there
1:21:34anything?
1:21:34>> Um, no fasting. Uh, but now in the last
1:21:38year, because I had to cut 10 kilos. Um,
1:21:40I'm a lot better in in I've learned a
1:21:43lot about when to fuel, what to fuel.
1:21:44So, basically, right now, if I have a
1:21:46session in 2 hours, I I need to put
1:21:48carbs into my system. I need to preload
1:21:50myself in that sense. um throughout the
1:21:52day I need I'm trying to hit about um
1:21:552.2 grams of protein per kilogram of
1:21:58body weight. So basically I just
1:22:00flatline it. If I hit 200 gram of
1:22:01protein a day, perfect.
1:22:03>> Um I want to be around 80 g of fat every
1:22:06day and then just fill the rest um of my
1:22:08of my macros with carbs. Um and then the
1:22:10timing of those carbs. I need I need to
1:22:12get that amount. I need to get a certain
1:22:14portion uh within two hours presession.
1:22:17I need to get it just after the session
1:22:18as well so I can replenish what what I
1:22:21used in that session. Um, and then if I
1:22:23was going on any cut, it's basically I
1:22:25need to be as far away from a session as
1:22:27possible for those meals to be like much
1:22:30lower in in in calories and everything
1:22:32like that.
1:22:33>> Caffeine preession.
1:22:35>> Caffeine preession. Yep. So on my main
1:22:37sets, I'll have a Red Bull or two. Um,
1:22:39Red Bull's 80 milligrams. So if I'm
1:22:41having two, it's 160, which I don't
1:22:43know, it's two and a bit shots. Two
1:22:44shots of coffee. Um but uh like
1:22:48generally I'll wake up, I'll have a
1:22:50coffee, we'll go for a walk, I'll have
1:22:52another coffee. Um and then I'll have
1:22:54the two Red Bulls before training. So in
1:22:56a day my coffee tolerance is pretty well
1:22:58my caffeine tolerance is pretty high.
1:22:59I'm probably sitting around
1:23:01>> um 400 500 milligrams a day generally
1:23:05speaking. Then when it comes to
1:23:07competition uh leading into it, I will
1:23:10taper down the amount I'll have in a
1:23:12day. And then on competition day, um if
1:23:14we like if we're going heat final, heat
1:23:16semi-final,
1:23:18>> um I would virtually have no caffeine
1:23:19for the heat, very little for the semi
1:23:22and then just go aggressive for the
1:23:24final. So like I'll have a triple shot 2
1:23:26hours before. Wow.
1:23:27>> Go to the pool and then I'll have a Red
1:23:29Bull an hour before um and then I'll
1:23:31have another Red Bull 30 minutes before.
1:23:33So I'll smash the caffeine prior to
1:23:35that.
1:23:36>> Um we've seen research. I can't remember
1:23:38the amount of like milligrams per
1:23:41kilogram of body weight, but I think it
1:23:43worked out where the research was saying
1:23:46that somewhere in the ballpark of I
1:23:48think it was 350 to 500 mg of caffeine
1:23:52pre pre
1:23:54>> high performance whatever you're trying
1:23:56to do was like the sweet spot for my yes
1:23:58I was surprised by that
1:24:00>> um for yeah for what I wanted to do. So
1:24:03that that's my caffeine intact. No ice
1:24:04buds. Uh we we've spoken a little bit
1:24:07about that.
1:24:07>> Yeah, I wanted to actually just kind of
1:24:09semi-document that. Um we spoke a bit
1:24:12about it. I sort of was obviously the
1:24:15literature talks about that you know ice
1:24:17baths post any kind of hypertrophy
1:24:20workout is a problem because of blunting
1:24:22inflammation.
1:24:23>> Yeah.
1:24:24>> But I still don't think there's much
1:24:26science behind ice baths prior to sort
1:24:29of a sprint session. I I kind of you
1:24:31know and I'm saying ice bath and then
1:24:33warm.
1:24:34>> Yeah. So I I'd love to see more data on
1:24:37that because for me personally I find
1:24:39that for a weight session I find doing
1:24:43an ice bath before makes my weight
1:24:45session the pain tolerance is higher
1:24:47maybe from like the neuradrenaline or
1:24:49something like that.
1:24:50>> I don't really know or maybe it's the
1:24:53lymphatic system flushing the blood into
1:24:55certain regions of my muscles or
1:24:57something. So I was
1:24:58>> you you had some really good ideas
1:25:00around that in terms of like as you just
1:25:01said ice bars post hypertrophy is going
1:25:05to take away from the adaptations you
1:25:06want you want to grow that muscle which
1:25:08means you want that inflammation. Um the
1:25:10other side of the coin you mentioned was
1:25:13earlier today was um for fat loss. If
1:25:16you want to slow down your metabolism
1:25:17then they're really good.
1:25:19>> Um but in the sense of yeah high
1:25:20performance sprinting and wanting to tap
1:25:23into that nervous system it might not be
1:25:25that good. Um, but the one caveat you
1:25:28said, which I am pretty intrigued about,
1:25:29is that you you jump in, you do your ice
1:25:32bath, you get the neurological response
1:25:34to that, then you warm up, you get to
1:25:36the point where you're ready to go and
1:25:38and you're in a healthy spot from a from
1:25:39a core body temperature point of view,
1:25:42and then you're rip. So, it it's similar
1:25:44to the idea of, I don't know, smelling
1:25:46salt. So, then like alert, like it sends
1:25:49off XYZ signals through your nervous
1:25:51system. You're ready to go. you can tap
1:25:53into bit more of a heightened output.
1:25:57>> And so I'm I'm pretty intrigued by that.
1:25:59The one question I have in response to
1:26:01that, which I'm not sure of the answer,
1:26:05is if you do that and you do that too
1:26:07frequently, like let's say you come into
1:26:09a training session, you're pretty
1:26:11fatigued. You're not sure how you're
1:26:12going to go. So you use the ice bath
1:26:14method. You get in the ice bath, you you
1:26:16jack yourself up, you're ready to go
1:26:17after you warm up again. But that brings
1:26:21you to a baseline. Does that does that
1:26:24jacking up take away from the future?
1:26:27Like does that take away from your
1:26:29readiness 2 days down the line or 3 days
1:26:31down the line or the next day? And so
1:26:33maybe it's good in that moment locally
1:26:35on that day, but across a a week or two
1:26:39week period if if that's a regular part
1:26:41of your training or something like that.
1:26:44>> Maybe maybe it's not. So it's something
1:26:46I I am a human guinea pig. something I'm
1:26:48pretty interested in.
1:26:50>> Well, it's interesting because obviously
1:26:51you talk so much to central nervous
1:26:52system. I do worry that the ice bath
1:26:54could overload your central nervous
1:26:57system. Just much like when you have
1:26:58caffeine, you're adrenal fatigued
1:27:00>> and it does literally nothing.
1:27:02>> Do you know how long it takes
1:27:06from when you get into the ice bath?
1:27:08>> 6 hours they reckon.
1:27:10>> Okay. So, it the the effects last for 6
1:27:12hours. Okay. So, yeah. 10 minutes in the
1:27:14hot spa to to rebalance out. Well,
1:27:17within that window.
1:27:18>> Yeah. I'm just I describe it as like
1:27:21being like it's life in 4D when you get
1:27:24in it's you get out and you feel like
1:27:26and I imagine it's just because it
1:27:28dilates everything. You know, you've
1:27:30you're in kind of shock.
1:27:31>> Yeah.
1:27:32>> So,
1:27:32>> have you ever tried an ice bath and then
1:27:34had smelling salts in the ice bath?
1:27:36>> No, that's a great idea [laughter]
1:27:37though.
1:27:37>> I don't know if it's a great idea, but
1:27:39it's an idea.
1:27:40>> We should definitely try that. Um, sleep
1:27:43was the only other one is how strict are
1:27:46you on sleep? And
1:27:47>> I try and be strict in terms of being
1:27:49plus or plus or minus 2 hours from the
1:27:52same time I wake up and the same time I
1:27:54go to bed.
1:27:55>> Um, the general quality of sleep
1:27:57currently in the last year has been
1:27:58pretty hit and miss. It depends on the
1:28:00baby and that's out of my control.
1:28:01There's nothing nothing we can do about
1:28:03it and it is what it is. But generally
1:28:05speaking, I and from what we are told
1:28:08from the sleep specialists that we deal
1:28:10with, um, plus plus or minus 2 hours of
1:28:13the same time from wake up and go into
1:28:15bed basically is the most optimal
1:28:17approach. And anytime you you get out of
1:28:19that bandwidth, it's almost like the
1:28:21same effects as as jet lag.
1:28:23>> Um, and yeah, effectively the more sleep
1:28:25you can get specifically for your
1:28:27nervous system, the better. And the it's
1:28:31weighted. It's it's not symmetric in the
1:28:33sense where if you get 8 hours, the last
1:28:35four are as good as the first four.
1:28:38>> We've been told that the initial part of
1:28:40sleep is the most important like it's
1:28:43it's asymmetrically skewed towards being
1:28:45more beneficial with getting deep sleep
1:28:48on that on that first phase.
1:28:49>> Yeah. Okay. I didn't know that. Um
1:28:53I guess we touched on digitizing your
1:28:55sessions, so you've already spoken about
1:28:56that which was great. Uh, tall poppy
1:28:59syndrome was the other one which I sort
1:29:01of find interesting in Australia of
1:29:03course. I wanted to sort of ask you
1:29:05about that how you've navigated that
1:29:06potentially or whether that's ever been
1:29:08an issue for you particularly when you
1:29:10were sort of changing your training
1:29:12regime.
1:29:12>> Um, it's definitely been an issue. Um,
1:29:16even before I went about doing this type
1:29:18of training, when I wanted to voice
1:29:20opinions on training methods or even
1:29:22just tweaking certain sessions, um, I
1:29:25was very heavily pushed back and then
1:29:28basically
1:29:29got the, uh, what do you call it? Like
1:29:31the, um, no, not persona, like the
1:29:35what's it
1:29:35>> perception sort of or
1:29:37>> perception or like like the label of
1:29:40just a nuisance to train. I was hard to
1:29:42coach because I had questions about what
1:29:44I was doing. I didn't just shut up and
1:29:46get on the conveyor belt and and do what
1:29:48we were told to do.
1:29:49>> Um, which fair enough, you you do it
1:29:52when you're 16, 17, but when you're in
1:29:53the sport for 20 plus years and you're
1:29:56late 20s and you're an adult living in
1:29:58real life, you don't want to you you
1:30:00don't want the relationship of a a high
1:30:02school student and a teacher at that
1:30:04age. And so um a lot of them got pretty
1:30:06shitty with just general very mediocre
1:30:10questions about maybe changing or
1:30:12tweaking a little bit here and there.
1:30:13And then when I left and came back with
1:30:16an entirely new approach um it was yeah
1:30:19heavily scrutinized the the coach that I
1:30:22collabor collabor collaborated with. So
1:30:24he he gave me a lane to basically do
1:30:26whatever I needed to do without without
1:30:29having to hover over and be like no you
1:30:30need to do this you need to do that. he
1:30:33on deck for the f particularly the first
1:30:35few times was approached by so many
1:30:37coaches being like like you're coaching
1:30:38Cam backweight make sure that you put
1:30:40him in his place like he likes to have
1:30:42an opinion on what to do and you have to
1:30:44squash that early um and all of them
1:30:46were just yeah in his ear like left
1:30:48right and center from from around that
1:30:50stuff so
1:30:51>> it was there before it was there after
1:30:53it's still there now like there's a lot
1:30:54of um comments I guess uh about being
1:30:59needy as a program because we require
1:31:02technology ology to track data because
1:31:04most most other clubs don't know what
1:31:06most other squads don't.
1:31:08>> Um yeah, so I don't think it's something
1:31:10that that will change. Um at least in
1:31:13the short term. Maybe it's a
1:31:14generational thing. I'm not sure. Um but
1:31:17yeah, I've definitely dealt with it.
1:31:19>> Yeah, I find it's it's an unfortunate
1:31:21thing in Australia for sure.
1:31:23>> Yeah.
1:31:24>> Um do elite performers like yourself
1:31:27need to be slightly delusional?
1:31:29I'd say we'd have to have an element of
1:31:31that like
1:31:33so definitely actually I would say so
1:31:36the context of when I started the first
1:31:39season of this type of training it was I
1:31:42got back in the water October 2022 we
1:31:44were on a so the way the swimming
1:31:46Australia salary works if you're
1:31:48category 1 um which is a you got to be
1:31:52an international medalist in a relay or
1:31:54individually um and off the back of
1:31:55Tokyo I secured category one for 2020 22
1:32:00and then because I like I'd been on the
1:32:02team for a long time, there was this
1:32:04long service thing where you could
1:32:05extend that for one more year and then
1:32:07that was it. If you don't remake it, you
1:32:08don't you don't get salary.
1:32:09>> Mhm. So, my only form of income from
1:32:122022 to 2023 was that tier one category
1:32:1650k um pre-tax and I went back into the
1:32:20sport after a year off and I decided to
1:32:23go from 40k a week to 1 and a halfk a
1:32:25week do this absolutely crazy different
1:32:28style of approach never been proven
1:32:30before um and basically put all my eggs
1:32:33in that basket where I spent the year
1:32:36just working for the world championship
1:32:38trials. If I qualified for the World
1:32:40Championship Trials, then I can secure
1:32:43funding. But if I didn't, then I have
1:32:46zero funding and we just spent the
1:32:48entire year putting everything on hold.
1:32:50Um, we moved to Brisbane to do this. I
1:32:52had no other form of income or anything
1:32:55like that. I didn't have anything up and
1:32:56running that would potentially move on
1:32:58to earning some money. Um, and so I was
1:33:00effectively effectively at a point where
1:33:02I put my entire
1:33:05uh I guess cash flow longevity into this
1:33:09untried, untested type of program that
1:33:12was wildly different to what has ever
1:33:14been done before. And you 100% have to
1:33:16have some form of like delusion to to do
1:33:19that and to not and to not wig out
1:33:22throughout the year.
1:33:23>> How do you get through that? Like you
1:33:25know again and this is literally what we
1:33:26talk about a lot you know not having a
1:33:29map that shows you where to go and each
1:33:30day just going like why am I
1:33:33>> why am I doing this?
1:33:34>> Not thinking about it though not
1:33:35thinking about that particular side of
1:33:37thing like I had I had a year well I had
1:33:40nine months to do what I needed to do
1:33:43and and to test this out and it was
1:33:45simply just don't think past the current
1:33:47block I'm in. So, if I had a fiveweek
1:33:49block where I'm working on my ability
1:33:53for resisted sprinting, then I'm only
1:33:55thinking about that. Like, I don't know,
1:33:57not thinking about what's happening
1:33:58after that 5 weeks. Once that's over,
1:34:01create the new block and that's all I'm
1:34:02focusing on. It was literally just step
1:34:04by step until we got to the trials,
1:34:06until we got to the world championship.
1:34:07>> Do you think it's cuz you were so good
1:34:09at measuring your results that that
1:34:11helped as well? like those small gains
1:34:14were were able to go to to point you in
1:34:16the right direction and go actually
1:34:18maybe this is working
1:34:19>> well it definitely helped because within
1:34:218 weeks of coming back after a year over
1:34:23a year off I was quicker than what I did
1:34:25in Tokyo and so I got immediate feedback
1:34:27that it's it's doing something
1:34:30>> um that was still a long way off
1:34:32anything that would actually get me a
1:34:34medal in an international competition or
1:34:37even qualify for the national team at
1:34:38that time um but it was better than what
1:34:41I did in Tokyo. So within 8 weeks it was
1:34:43I I I kind of got the pat on the back
1:34:45like right it's it's at least in the
1:34:47direction you want to go. Um and then
1:34:49from there cuz we track everything each
1:34:51month each each week I was doing it some
1:34:53form of PB. And so if you're improving
1:34:55in some metric you have that direct
1:34:57feedback just to get better and better
1:34:59and better and to trust in the process
1:35:01more and more.
1:35:02>> Swimming against the current.
1:35:04>> Yeah. Yeah. Effectively swimming against
1:35:05the current. It's so cool because I
1:35:07imagine the noise at the time would have
1:35:10been like what are you doing? But all
1:35:12you were really focused on was just the
1:35:14numbers. Like
1:35:15>> I mean the noise was like you're an old
1:35:18idiot. You just want to get on the team
1:35:19but you don't want to do the work. Like
1:35:21what the [ __ ] are you doing? And so
1:35:23yeah, it was very much um
1:35:25>> not listening to that and just being
1:35:27like right I ripped a PB here. Let's do
1:35:28let's do another PB next week.
1:35:31>> So [snorts] cool. Um, I guess I had a
1:35:35couple of staff questions which I don't
1:35:38know if we have time for to be honest.
1:35:40>> Yeah,
1:35:40>> you do. Jake does. Uh, so I'll quickly
1:35:44jump into them. Um,
1:35:47give me two seconds.
1:35:48>> Go for it.
1:35:50>> Jeez, here we go. Uh, so are the
1:35:53enhanced games ultimately about sport or
1:35:56they really about Silicon Valley's
1:35:58obsession with optimization and
1:36:01immortality?
1:36:02>> Um, I would say very much more so the
1:36:05the second one. Um, but I would say more
1:36:08about their obsession with growing
1:36:10fintech companies. Um,
1:36:11>> the enhanced games is an elaborate
1:36:13marketing um or branch of the enhanced
1:36:16company which is a subscriptionbased
1:36:18um pharmaceutical company basically. So
1:36:21it's a very engaging marketing strategy
1:36:25for a drug company effectively. So it's
1:36:28not really they their rhetoric is around
1:36:31it's a new era of sport. It's a new this
1:36:33and that within sport. Um but yeah at
1:36:36its core or the crux of the movement is
1:36:38just to simply sell more drugs. M I
1:36:42guess my question off the back of that
1:36:43is you know is are these pharmaceutical
1:36:45companies ultimately going to own the
1:36:47sport at that point and control the
1:36:49narrative is one of the sort of strange
1:36:52future possibilities.
1:36:53>> I mean if if giant
1:36:57fintechbacked
1:36:59sporting events become the norm and
1:37:01surpass what the Olympics are and the
1:37:03world champions championships are and
1:37:05even like the FIFA World Cup etc. then
1:37:07for sure they have 100% say over they
1:37:10are the legal entity that decides what a
1:37:1350 freestyle is or if it's a 50 or 48 m
1:37:16freestyle what like they can they can do
1:37:18whatever they want there's no binding
1:37:20rule and so they have full agency over
1:37:23making the sport whatever it is so 100%
1:37:25if it goes down that way
1:37:27>> yeah which is fascinating next one is if
1:37:30society is already normalizing
1:37:32testosterone clinics longevity drugs
1:37:34peptides and biohacking
1:37:36for everyday people. Is elite sports
1:37:39simply becoming the next frontier?
1:37:43>> I think there's definitely a nuance and
1:37:45a difference between the optimization of
1:37:48that for someone in the general public
1:37:50to live healthier and live a longer and
1:37:53better life. that is in a completely
1:37:56different realm to what the idea of
1:37:59sport is which is the testing the battle
1:38:02testing of skill within a certain
1:38:04environment and a certain domain and so
1:38:07I think they they should be mutually
1:38:09exclusive as opposed to a natural
1:38:11evolution of the same thread. Um, sport
1:38:15in it in it, the purity of sport is to
1:38:19have the skill gap of going up against
1:38:21people around the world, training and
1:38:23being fully optimized for that one
1:38:25particular movement in that one
1:38:27particular environment. And at its
1:38:30heart, it's it's just the human genetic
1:38:32potential as opposed to um anything else
1:38:36you can add on because technically drugs
1:38:37are a technology.
1:38:39>> Um, for example, fins are a techn
1:38:41technology. you can throw on flippers
1:38:43and do a 50 freestyle and you could beat
1:38:45what they did in the enhanced games. Um,
1:38:47and that's that's the same ballpark as
1:38:49what drugs are in terms of a technology
1:38:50that uses that to help people. Um, that
1:38:53needs to be the the more you introduce
1:38:55technology, the more the skill gap
1:38:58converges basically to to zero and and
1:39:01and then you lose that purity of what
1:39:03sport is. So I think it's a very
1:39:05different ballpark introducing that to
1:39:07sport itself as opposed to outside of
1:39:10that domain and just general people
1:39:12wanting to live a longer healthier life.
1:39:16[snorts]
1:39:17>> Do you think there's a danger that sport
1:39:18becomes less about mastery and more
1:39:21about access to doctors, money and
1:39:23pharmaceuticals?
1:39:25>> Yes. So I mean if if you go down this
1:39:27pathway it's going to be like that. And
1:39:29I mean in the end it there will be
1:39:32consequences that are no different to
1:39:33what's happening now in in cleaning
1:39:35sport where some people go and seek
1:39:38black market stuff to to get better
1:39:40because if you take the enhanced gains
1:39:42to it to the to the end result of what
1:39:44they want it to be. You'll have enhanced
1:39:46athletes who are taking drugs and
1:39:48they're being guided by certain doctors
1:39:50and they're doing it in a healthy way.
1:39:52But 99.9% of the population of the world
1:39:55don't have enhanced doctors guiding them
1:39:56to do what they want to do or the drugs
1:39:59that the enhanced people are offering.
1:40:01So they they will eventually pivot to
1:40:04black market stuff to then get on the
1:40:05same level as these enhanced guys which
1:40:07are then going to create the exact same
1:40:09health problems and concerns and risks
1:40:11as well. And so
1:40:13>> yeah, it's it's not good.
1:40:15>> Yeah, that was 100% my concern as well
1:40:17is it sort of opens the door to exactly
1:40:19that. you know, someone who wants to
1:40:22earn the prize money is going to take
1:40:23start taking some pretty big risks
1:40:25potentially. And I know the narrative is
1:40:27that it's quite the opposite. But I
1:40:30think that's human nature.
1:40:31>> Yeah. Like Yeah. Like it's the narrative
1:40:34is different from their point of view
1:40:36for the handful of people that are doing
1:40:37it.
1:40:38I don't know, an 8-year-old right now in
1:40:40in the middle of Siberia who in 10 years
1:40:43time wants to go and compete at the
1:40:45enhanced games
1:40:46>> and they don't have access to what the
1:40:48doctors are giving them at the enhanced
1:40:49games. They're going to go to just the
1:40:52local
1:40:53>> like steroid dealer, whatever it is in
1:40:57the local area, just take whatever they
1:40:58can get and hope that they can get to a
1:41:00level that can then allow them to enter
1:41:02that space and like that is certainly a
1:41:04path for disaster. M yeah 100%.
1:41:08Uh what does the enhanced games mean for
1:41:11body image? Does it lean into the
1:41:14conversation around body dysmorphia for
1:41:18specifically young men?
1:41:20>> It definitely does in the way that it's
1:41:22portrayed 100%. Um and I think that's a
1:41:24general problem problem that it's not
1:41:27isolated to the enhanced games that
1:41:29that's a problem on social media
1:41:31generally speaking for all humans. Um
1:41:34and and like like you said as well like
1:41:36peptides and this type of thing is now
1:41:38very much normalized in the general
1:41:40populace and so there's going to be that
1:41:42giant skew in terms of people who are on
1:41:45that people who are not and then the
1:41:47renormalization of that benchmark cuz
1:41:50that's all you get to see in the
1:41:51algorithm. And so 100% it will have its
1:41:54down downfalls. Um there are sports
1:41:56where
1:41:58>> it's not optimal to look optimal if that
1:42:01makes sense. Like if you're a
1:42:02weightlifter, you want to be as heavy as
1:42:03possible if you're a shot putter, discus
1:42:05thrower, whatever that may be. Um yeah,
1:42:08you're not going to look like a how
1:42:10James Magnus looked.
1:42:11>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Um I guess
1:42:15couple of others literally just about
1:42:17you and you know, who are you without
1:42:19swimming? And we sort of touched on that
1:42:21a little bit, I guess,
1:42:23>> you know, around uh giving back to the
1:42:26swimming community through your programs
1:42:28and ideas and sort of innovation. But I
1:42:30guess is there any other hobbies? Is
1:42:32there any other interests?
1:42:34>> Um like in the last in the last year, a
1:42:38lot of the hobbies have been stripped
1:42:39away because it's basically full-time
1:42:41dad. Um because it's busy when they're
1:42:44when they're young, as you'd know. Um
1:42:46and then swimming as well. But I mean,
1:42:49I'm a very very competitive person. Um,
1:42:52if I if I'm not getting my fix at a swim
1:42:54comp or anything like that, um, I find
1:42:57other ways to to be competitive. So,
1:42:59like, for example, recently, last couple
1:43:00years, it's been Call of Duty. They've
1:43:02got a rank system there. Yeah.
1:43:03>> Um, I've got nostalgia to the game
1:43:05because I played it when I was like uh I
1:43:08think grade 9, 10, 11, etc. And so,
1:43:11>> um, just to jump on, it's a 4v4 4v4
1:43:14format ranked. you get like a e- little
1:43:16um like SR points and everything when
1:43:18you when you win and all that type of
1:43:20stuff. So just competitive for random
1:43:22outlets like that. Um and I just like to
1:43:25understand stuff. Um and so I like to
1:43:27understand things naturally out of
1:43:30curiosity and then I like to help people
1:43:32with that understanding which is
1:43:34basically basically feeding into what
1:43:35I'm doing with the swimming stuff, with
1:43:36the training stuff and being so open
1:43:38about giving that back. Um, and so yeah,
1:43:42it's just different avenue like I've I
1:43:44like in my time off in 2021 2022, I deep
1:43:48dived into a field of like neuroscycle
1:43:51analysis and um this like the merging of
1:43:54Freud and Carl Jung and the depth
1:43:56psychologist with modern neuroscience
1:43:59and and and a effective neuroscience and
1:44:01just diving into random
1:44:04>> areas that interest me that are kind of
1:44:06mysterious but feel like they have this
1:44:08nugget of
1:44:09>> truth. truth in it about the world or
1:44:11about how things are and just yeah
1:44:14diving in and just seeing what I can
1:44:15come across.
1:44:16>> Yep. Uh this is one I'm battling with at
1:44:20the moment and so I'd like to ask you is
1:44:23should parents push their kids into
1:44:25sport? And yeah, I get some
1:44:30>> so different answers. Like if you have
1:44:32four year olds, that's a different
1:44:34answer to if you have a 13-year-old and
1:44:38they're at a different level or
1:44:39something like that. Like I am a big
1:44:41proponent of kinesthetic intelligence,
1:44:44movement intelligence. Like that doesn't
1:44:46mean a movement of ability that is world
1:44:49class, but just the ability to have
1:44:53control over your body, to move in
1:44:55different ways. Um, I'm a big proponent
1:44:58of that for people in general and I
1:44:59would love for H Heartley and and any
1:45:01other future kids that I have to to just
1:45:04enjoy movement whether that and like
1:45:06sport is just a prime the perfect place
1:45:09that
1:45:10>> it's an environment that is curated to
1:45:12basically um attract the development of
1:45:16movement within I guess well- definfined
1:45:18parameters well defined things as
1:45:20opposed to just
1:45:21>> going out in the backyard and like I
1:45:22don't know dancing or something like
1:45:24that. But
1:45:24>> I'm a big fan of movement and just
1:45:26general movement or kinesesthetic
1:45:28intelligence. Um the social side of
1:45:30things as well, like team sports. I
1:45:32played a lot of soccer growing up, water
1:45:33polo, etc. Um that's a massive part of
1:45:36of just growing up.
1:45:38>> Um a lot of my fondest memories of my
1:45:40swimming career are eras of when I was
1:45:44with a certain club and I just had my
1:45:46best mates training with me every day.
1:45:47Didn't matter what we were training, if
1:45:49we were good, if we were bad, anything
1:45:50like that. Just having Yeah. having that
1:45:53type of social factor is massive as
1:45:55well. Um the only the only thing I think
1:45:58the where the problem comes in is that
1:46:00early specialization and when when the
1:46:04kid who like whoever they are however
1:46:06they present themselves if they're not
1:46:09interested in it if it's not their
1:46:10passion but for the parent it's their
1:46:13passion and there's a there's a
1:46:14divergence between that if that is
1:46:17hammered and hammered and hammered then
1:46:19yeah that's going that's that's not
1:46:20that's not where you want to be. I think
1:46:21that's the difficult tension that I find
1:46:23myself in is of course that you know
1:46:25often you know a kid even myself you
1:46:28don't know what your passion is until
1:46:30you're sort of
1:46:31>> until you rock up to the tennis court
1:46:33and actually commit and sometimes it can
1:46:35take
1:46:36>> a significant commitment to realize wow
1:46:39you know I'm really
1:46:40>> I'm really excited that that my parents
1:46:42sort of put me in this position of
1:46:44course I think there's an unhealthy
1:46:46level to that as well
1:46:48>> but
1:46:49>> well I mean that can change too like
1:46:50that You could be extremely passionate
1:46:53about playing tennis and then you turn
1:46:5516 and then like your psychobiology
1:46:58changes, the way you view the world
1:47:00changes, like things change as you grow
1:47:02up and then you fall out of passion for
1:47:03tennis.
1:47:04>> But then you're at a point where it's
1:47:05like well you've done it for 10 years
1:47:07like like should I quit? Like do like
1:47:10I'm kind of obliged to keep going. My
1:47:12parent like everyone everyone knows me
1:47:13as a tennis player. Do I keep doing it?
1:47:15>> Um and so yeah, there's there's so much
1:47:17nuance in this.
1:47:18>> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I think we could make
1:47:20an entire podcast just about that.
1:47:22>> Um,
1:47:23>> this is actually the last one and it was
1:47:26basically just is there anything else
1:47:28that you want to talk about in general
1:47:31for you know people who might be in a
1:47:33similar position that you were in
1:47:35previously where you know that they
1:47:37don't have a map, they don't know where
1:47:39they're going, they're in a tough part
1:47:41of their career, tough part of their
1:47:43sport where you know their training is
1:47:46not making sense. uh you know is you
1:47:50know what would you say to someone like
1:47:52that early in their career? I guess
1:47:54>> I would say as early as you can figure
1:47:58out what type of human being you are
1:47:59what what your character is and your
1:48:02personality is that's the most important
1:48:05thing that you have to do and then align
1:48:07your approach to what it doesn't even
1:48:10have to be sport. Align your approach to
1:48:12whatever you're doing to be aligned with
1:48:14who you are as a human being. the more
1:48:18the I use I've been using divergent
1:48:20convergent a lot but as that diverges
1:48:23away the who you are and how you relate
1:48:25and how you do your sport the bigger
1:48:27that gap is the the worse you're going
1:48:29to the worst time you're going to have
1:48:31you're going to hate it um things aren't
1:48:33just it's there's going to be so much
1:48:35friction there so 100% I would have to
1:48:38really try and heavily enforce and
1:48:40something I really want to teach hardly
1:48:42when he gets older is figure out who you
1:48:44are figure out how you like to relate to
1:48:47things and then make sure that
1:48:48everything you do in relation to what
1:48:50you're doing is aligned with that. And
1:48:53anything else that is going away from
1:48:55that or separate from that, whether
1:48:57that's um external parties trying to
1:48:59push you away from how you want to
1:49:01operate or how you best operate. Um push
1:49:04back against it and just make sure that
1:49:06that what you're doing is is is aligned
1:49:08as best you can because I think what how
1:49:10you relate to things is as important if
1:49:12not more important than how you actually
1:49:13do the thing itself. M it can be hard
1:49:16sometimes though is of course that you
1:49:18know sometimes
1:49:20you're hating something cuz you're not
1:49:22seeing results and it's actually because
1:49:24you're doing the wrong things and if you
1:49:26did see some result you might find that
1:49:29passion again.
1:49:30>> Yeah. I mean that that actually is what
1:49:32I went through. Um I mean excuse me I
1:49:35did I did rearrange how I approached the
1:49:38sport extremely differently. Before I
1:49:40would just rock up, get told what to do
1:49:41yada yada yada that's it. and now I have
1:49:44full autonomy and creative agency to do
1:49:47what however I want to do it. Um, so
1:49:49that's a huge tick, but like I still
1:49:53didn't really like the sport that much
1:49:54in 2022. But 8 weeks later after getting
1:49:58back into it and I was faster than
1:49:59Tokyo. It was like hang on something's
1:50:01happening here. And then in training,
1:50:03I'd do a PB for a 25 m that never really
1:50:06got to do too much in the past, but now
1:50:08I'm ripping them every week and it's
1:50:10like, okay, this is s and again it goes
1:50:11back to that like like 18year-old bench
1:50:13pressing type of like a feeling and
1:50:15everything and that can go a long way as
1:50:17well. So,
1:50:19>> um,
1:50:19>> so maybe it's a trust your gut sort of
1:50:21thing.
1:50:21>> Yeah. If if if you if you know if your
1:50:24gut is telling you and you know that
1:50:25there are different ways to do a
1:50:27particular thing, then you have to back
1:50:30yourself and do it. Even if it's just
1:50:32for closure, like you do it. And if it
1:50:34doesn't work out, at least you know that
1:50:35that is not the path to do. And maybe
1:50:37what you were originally doing,
1:50:39>> which wasn't making you feel that great,
1:50:41that might be all there is to that
1:50:42particular small window of life. And so
1:50:46at the very least, it gives you closure,
1:50:48but but if it works, like you get to see
1:50:50how far you can take it.
1:50:52>> No, thank you so much, Cam. Honestly,
1:50:54for me personally, it's um it's an
1:50:56absolute honor and privilege to both do
1:50:58a training session with you and then get
1:51:01to ask you all these questions. And you
1:51:03know, I know our our staff will be
1:51:05absolutely stoked to hear all this and
1:51:07and and any of the listeners. So,
1:51:08thanks, mate.

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