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CA v Robert Durst Murder Trial Day 23 Randy Burrows Galveston Dive Team — Transcript

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0:00return mr durst is president
0:03with gary and mr chestnut
0:07the council of people are present led by
0:09david balian
0:10mr balian what uh what will he be
0:13presenting next
0:14the testimony of randall burroughs live
0:19a witness who's present yep
0:22all right you may call your witness
0:33we're doing the full spread today of
0:35reading stipulations video and live
0:42okay
0:52[Music]
0:53shall be the truth the whole truth and
0:55nothing but the truth
1:11burrows b-u-r-r-o-w-s
1:17may proceed thank you good morning good
1:19morning
1:20so what do you do for a living i retired
1:23from the galveston county sheriff's
1:24office as a lieutenant
1:26but now work part-time for the galveston
1:28county medical examiner's office as a
1:30death investigator
1:32for how long have you been retired and
1:34working as a death investigator
1:36i retired almost 11 years ago but i've
1:39been doing the death investigations
1:41part-time for about 15 years
1:45so let's go back to your work at the
1:47sheriff's office in galveston county
1:49what did you do there my last two years
1:52i was a lieutenant
1:54in charge of the marine division and
1:56dive team and patrol division
1:59before that i worked in investigations
2:03including narcotics homicide burglary
2:08robbery everything um
2:12when you uh worked for the sheriff's
2:15department
2:17how many years total was that 32 years
2:19and how many years
2:20in investigations
2:2428 did that include homicide
2:26investigations yes
2:28when you work currently for the medical
2:30examiner's office as the death
2:32investigator
2:32yes just very briefly what does that
2:34entail the
2:36death investigator for the medical
2:37examiner's office basically is the eyes
2:39and ears for the doctors that perform
2:41autopsies
2:42when the doctor sees the deceased it's
2:45laying on a table he has no idea or she
2:48has no idea
2:49what happened with this deceased person
2:51so we go to the scenes
2:53we process the scenes we photograph it
2:55we document we
2:57reports and so forth that way when the
2:59doctor gets our reports and sees the
3:01photographs
3:02has some idea of what happened on that
3:04scene
3:05do you have some basic training
3:08for that position in human anatomy yes
3:11have you
3:11um recovered body parts as part of that
3:16job function oh yes okay
3:19um i want to talk about your dive
3:23experience
3:24you've mentioned something about for two
3:26years you were you did something with
3:27diving what is that
3:28well i was a commander of the dive team
3:31a marine division and dive team for the
3:32last two years but i was part of the
3:34dive team and the dive team leader
3:36for about 10 years with the sheriff's
3:38office so
3:39let's talk about what the dive team is
3:41what the dive team at the sheriff's
3:43office in galveston county what are they
3:44responsible for
3:45the dive team is actually responsible
3:47for
3:48tributaries galveston bay and anywhere
3:52we're assigned to go
3:53bodies of water where items get thrown
3:56in there that don't belong there
3:58and it's our job to go in there and make
4:00a recovery and
4:01process that is potential evidence and
4:04get it out of the water
4:06so i'm not going to limit you
4:07specifically to your work
4:09on the dive team with the sheriff i just
4:11want to know in general
4:13what's your diving experiences when did
4:14you start diving
4:16i started diving back in the 80s in the
4:19mid 80s
4:20and that's when we
4:23started informally
4:27diving recreationally diving and so
4:28forth and formed a
4:30definite team and have you received
4:33training to dive
4:34oh yes is there specific training you've
4:36had in terms of searching
4:38in terms of a diver well yeah i was
4:40actually
4:41an instructor and taught diving
4:44both recreational and public safety
4:46diving and for
4:47how many years did you teach oh
4:53another 10 10 11 years and when you say
4:56public safety diving what does that
4:57encompass public safety diving is just
4:59that it's that's
5:00what dive teams are supposed to do
5:03that's public safety diving as opposed
5:04to recreational diving which is
5:06going out and looking at lovely fish and
5:09corals and stuff
5:10uh public sector diving is diving in
5:11water that most people don't want to go
5:13in
5:14do you do that too recreational dive oh
5:16absolutely
5:17um is there any recreational diving
5:19going on in in the gulf of me
5:21in galveston bay i'm not in galveston
5:23back now okay
5:25um so
5:30i'm going to take you back well before i
5:32do that how many dives do you think
5:33you've
5:34successfully completed
5:38thousands how about searches
5:42uh diving searches
5:46uh if i logged every one of them i'd be
5:48doing several
5:49dive books but uh 500 or so at least
5:53okay and when you say you were
5:56on the their head of the dive team for
5:58the sheriffs in galveston
6:00i want to take you back to the year
6:022001. how many people were on that dive
6:04team
6:06um that particular i think we had seven
6:09seven on our team
6:10okay and you were the head of that team
6:12yes
6:14as the head of the team did you
6:15coordinate the dives and figure out
6:17exactly what was going to happen yes
6:19plan the dives
6:20were you present during the dives yes
6:22did you give instructions on what each
6:23person's part would be
6:25yes did you participate in the dive yes
6:27all right
6:29so i'm going to take you back to um
6:34this case the case of the recovered body
6:37parts remorse black and galveston you're
6:39familiar with what i'm talking about
6:40yes and did you um
6:43become involved in this case i did also
6:47the original call came to the galveston
6:50police department
6:51their dive team was dispatched and
6:53realized that the scene was
6:55relatively large area so they called the
6:58sheriff's office for assistance
7:00which is commonplace i mean we work
7:02together all the time in these dive
7:03scenes because
7:04more people is better as far as that
7:07goes
7:08and when you arrive um had
7:11body parts had you been informed that
7:12body parts had already been recovered
7:14from the water
7:15yes all right those were already removed
7:17by the time you got there
7:19i think there were some that were still
7:20in that had not been removed from the
7:22scene so i got to look at where they
7:24were where they washed up and so forth
7:25but
7:26some of them had already been removed
7:28all right and was it just yourself or
7:29did you have your entire dive team there
7:31oh the whole team was there
7:33and was it just the sheriff's dive team
7:35that was involved in this particular
7:37search or was their other dive team no
7:40it was the
7:40sheriff's department dive team who was
7:42assisting the galveston police
7:44department dive team
7:45okay and the galveston police department
7:47had their own separate and distinct dive
7:48team
7:49yes how many people approximately were
7:51on scene from galveston dive team
7:53oh uh eight or nine maybe ten
7:57okay and were you at some point
8:00told what in particular you were looking
8:03for
8:04oh yes what were you told we were
8:07looking for any any pieces of evidence
8:08but also
8:09the head okay a human head yes all right
8:13so did you first of all let's describe
8:15this area where this
8:17search took place could just briefly
8:19describe
8:20for this jury what this body where this
8:22body of water is in relation to
8:24galveston island
8:26galveston bay is
8:30the area between galveston island and
8:33the mainland
8:34of galveston county it is
8:38has ship channels uh the texas city ship
8:41channel the houston ship channel
8:43and the intracoastal waterway but it
8:46also
8:46is is an area of recreational use for
8:50fishermen and so forth that is
8:52north of galveston island but south of
8:55the mainland
8:56if that makes sense so this is part of
8:58the gulf of mexico
9:00it's attached to the gulf of mexico okay
9:02and it's called galveston bay
9:03yes all right so you have galveston
9:05island
9:06and then you have mainland texas and
9:08there's a body of water that separates
9:10the two of them correct
9:11and that's the the galveston bay yes
9:13okay
9:14and in particular which side of the
9:16island were you guys searching
9:17we were on the north in north side of
9:20the island
9:21uh in the bay proper
9:25between the mainland and galveston
9:27island
9:28north north shore of galveston island
9:30i'm going to show you
9:31page one of what's been marked as
9:33people's 184.
9:36do you recognize that area in that
9:37photograph i do and is this the north
9:40side of the island that you searched
9:41yes do you see that red circle on this
9:44yes
9:44and in particular is that the um the
9:47area
9:48that you were asked to search yes okay
9:52i'm showing you what's in mark as photo
9:55two
9:55page two on people's 184. it's just
9:59another view of that same particular
10:00area
10:01yes okay so
10:05before we talk about your search i just
10:06want to ask you a few questions
10:08about what the water conditions are like
10:10in this area um
10:12let's start first with um
10:15water movement water the movement of
10:17water currents
10:18whatever you want what's the proper term
10:20well there's there's
10:22water movement can be determined as far
10:24as currents and wave action
10:26and tidal flow okay so what's the water
10:30movement
10:30like in this particular area on the
10:32north side of galveston island
10:34where this body of water you searched
10:36was
10:39the movement of the water basically
10:40depends on on the wind direction
10:44and also the amount of tide uh
10:48that is rising and falling
10:52um it all depends on what time of year
10:56and so forth
10:57so compared to the um
11:00say you know you go to an area where
11:03there's a beach area
11:04and um you see waves on the beach with
11:07something someone would typically
11:08experience
11:09is the movement of water like that in
11:10this area in galveston bay
11:13no it's pretty much along the shore it's
11:15pretty much
11:16uh based on wind
11:19wind currents as far as moving that
11:21water towards the shore or away from the
11:23shore okay so are you saying for the
11:24most part
11:26the movement of water in this particular
11:28area
11:29uh is dependent on the wind conditions
11:31yes
11:32um is it your testimony that based on
11:35your experience
11:37how many times have you done dovan and
11:40galveston bay in this particular area in
11:41that particular area
11:43that day was the only time we dove in
11:44that area um
11:46but i've dove in galveston bay
11:50hundreds of thousands almost 500 or so
11:52times
11:53okay and in galveston
11:56bay is the movement of the water
11:59depending on
12:00the wind conditions
12:03or is it more this particular area on
12:05the north side of this island that's
12:06difficult to say
12:07for in that particular instance the the
12:10movement of the water was not that great
12:12because
12:12but it was because of the wind direction
12:14however there are certain times
12:16when currents can be generated from
12:19outflow
12:20from from a lot of rain coming out of
12:22the trinity river or from any
12:24of the other and then also tidal tidal
12:26movements out
12:27in the channel area but along that area
12:30right there at that particular time it
12:32was all wind generated
12:33let's talk about this particular area
12:36that you searched
12:37on this particular time period you
12:38searched were you um
12:40on galveston island at this period of
12:42time in the days the days surrounding
12:44the search
12:45yes and so i want to talk about from
12:47september 28th
12:48to the day you searched are you familiar
12:50with what the weather and wind
12:52conditions
12:52and water conditions were in this area
12:54at those at that particular time
12:56yes okay what was it we had a northern
12:59blow through and
13:00the wind was actually coming out of the
13:01north blowing from
13:03north to south which was blowing into
13:05the into the shoreline so the waves that
13:07were being generated
13:08were actually coming towards the
13:09shoreline so at that particular
13:12time from the 28th of september to the
13:14time when you searched
13:15if you were standing if you look at the
13:17exhibit that's on the screen that you
13:18were previously shown
13:20if you're standing on that um let's just
13:23take that
13:24concrete bulkhead that's sticking out
13:26the end of that
13:27um landmass do you see that yes
13:30you're standing at the end of that
13:32concrete bulkhead and you're
13:34with your back to the land and your face
13:36to the ocean
13:37which way would the wind be blowing
13:38blowing right in my face
13:40okay so then which way was the water
13:43movement
13:44in this particular area during that
13:46period of time from the 28th of
13:47september
13:48when you serve towards the shore so
13:52let's say a kid went out there and threw
13:54a
13:55toy boat in the water at the end of that
13:58concrete bulkhead
13:59then which direction would that toy boat
14:01it's going to come towards the shore
14:03okay any doubt about that no doubt okay
14:05and what about something that
14:07sunk to the bottom in that particular
14:09area if you hooked it out there
14:11at that period of time if that if it's
14:13light enough to be able to move on the
14:15bottom which way is it going to move
14:17well it's going to go towards the shore
14:18but if it if it sinks to the bottom it's
14:21probably going to stay pretty close to
14:22where it sunk to the bottom okay so are
14:24you saying there's more
14:25movement of the water at the surface
14:27than at the bottom in this particular
14:28yes so then the wind
14:31affects the movement of the surface of
14:32the water but uh down towards the bottom
14:35it doesn't move as much right and of
14:36course as deeper
14:37deeper as you go the less effect from
14:39the wind is going to have okay but so
14:41close to shore where it's very shallow
14:43you're going to have more
14:44effect but if you're in the deeper water
14:46say five or six feet
14:48you're not going to have wind affect the
14:50movement of the
14:51of the object so if something in this
14:53period of time from the 28th forward
14:55to when you searched was thrown and did
14:58sink
14:58and if there was enough movement at the
15:01bottom wherever it was to move it which
15:03direction would it get moved it's going
15:04to go to the shore go towards shore
15:07any doubt about that no doubt so we've
15:10talked about the water conditions
15:12in terms of movement of the water and
15:15the wind conditions
15:16can you describe for the jury what's the
15:18visibility like in this particular area
15:20the water visibility well as you can see
15:23from that picture
15:25it's not very clear
15:28we as divers we're referred to
15:32as mud divers we're referred to as
15:34chocolate milk divers
15:36because every bit of the water in
15:37gauss's bay that we dive in is zero
15:39visibility
15:40you can't see anything with your eyes
15:43it's all done with your hands
15:45okay so this is not a recreational
15:46diving area no not at all
15:48all right let's talk about the bottom
15:51underneath the water
15:52you walk out there what's the bottom
15:54line
15:55it's going to be mostly sand after all
15:58galveston island is a barrier island so
16:01it's predominantly sand
16:03but as the water
16:06doesn't move it's going to have a it's
16:08going to build up some silty
16:10characteristics
16:11but it's predominantly sand and is this
16:15soft packed sand hard packed sand if i'm
16:17walking out there what's it going to
16:18feel like it's pretty hard i mean you
16:19may sing down a couple inches but it's
16:21not it's not like it's waiting in the
16:22mud
16:24it's uh you're you're you're it's pretty
16:25firm
16:27and is there a rocky aspect to it along
16:30the shoreline yes
16:31those are those rocks that are there
16:33that were there are actually
16:35placed there by man-made or by by man
16:38they weren't
16:42there naturally
16:54so i'm showing you what's been marked as
16:57page 21
16:59of this same exhibit 184.
17:02is this a picture um a little tide of
17:05the same exact
17:06area that we're talking about where you
17:07search yes yes
17:09and you see how near the near the edges
17:12towards the concrete surface sides
17:15there are some rocks yes there yes and
17:18then the rest of it
17:19appears to be sand is this fairly
17:22inaccurately depict what you're talking
17:24about
17:24absolutely yes in terms of the bottom
17:27yes
17:27absolutely okay so if it's full of water
17:31and i'm walking out there
17:32you say my feet might sink a short
17:34amount yeah a couple inches you know
17:36probably
17:37you're going to hit something solid
17:38solid sand and is it
17:41like i've been to the beach and walked
17:43around on the beach not in the water
17:47and are we talking like that soft of
17:49sand or more firm
17:52um well the beach in galveston is
17:55different than a beach in california
17:57okay so which one would i rather go to
18:00okay i can tell you california
18:06we go ahead that yeah
18:09it's it's firm sand it's a it's a
18:12not a white sand by any means but it's
18:14uh
18:15it's not powder so if something sinks to
18:18the bottom
18:21let's how heavy does it have to be in
18:23order to sink completely into the sand
18:25where you're not going to see it anymore
18:26in this particular area it it would take
18:30it a long while to sink to the
18:31sink below the surface of the sand
18:35have you um have you
18:38you said you've recovered body parts
18:40before have you ever been involved in
18:42investigation where a human head was
18:44recovered yes
18:45and are you familiar as part of your
18:47investigation with the coroner's office
18:49you're familiar with the characteristics
18:50of a human head
18:51yes and the weight of a human head yes
18:54if the human head
18:55was thrown into water um would it float
18:58or sink from your
19:00sink it's gonna sink okay is that
19:02because there's not a lot of
19:03cavity areas to hold air correct okay um
19:07if a human head was thrown in this area
19:09and sunk to the bottom
19:11given your experience the weight of this
19:13head would it sink below the sand so you
19:15couldn't see it
19:16no no any chance of that no it's
19:19going to be right there okay
19:26so how deep now let's talk about the
19:29depth
19:29how deep is the water out in this
19:31particular area well you can see from
19:32that picture right there
19:34uh that's right there along the
19:35shoreline inches deep but as you go out
19:39it has a gradual grade
19:41that would go out probably at the end of
19:43the pier
19:44we may be looking at four to five feet
19:47and then
19:47farther out you may get to seven feet
19:51so would you describe this as a very
19:52deep area no not at all
19:56um showing you what page two of the same
19:59exhibit
20:01so you're saying as you get to end of
20:03that that
20:05concrete extension on the left i'm
20:06calling it a concrete bulkhead you
20:08understand what i'm referring to yes i
20:09do
20:10and uh as you get to the end of that
20:13it's maybe how many feet deep uh four to
20:15five feet
20:15okay and to the right of that
20:18you see the protrusion there it looks
20:21like some sort of a
20:22rocky i do okay is that like a
20:26what would how would you describe that
20:27was a collapsed fishing pier okay
20:30again same depth in that whole area yes
20:33so when you say you search this area as
20:35a diver
20:37how i mean you're not going down very
20:39deep diving no
20:40no not at all okay
20:45all right so i'd like to talk about what
20:47you did
20:48what what were your responsibilities in
20:50terms of this search
20:52well the we divided the the entire crime
20:56scene up
20:57uh into two sections uh one section the
21:00galveston sheriff's office dive team
21:02is going to search and the other section
21:03the galveston police department dive
21:04team is going to search
21:06now that being said both of our teams
21:08are trained the same
21:10strictly because we work together so
21:12much so we all went through the same
21:14training
21:14that way if if they were short a dive or
21:17one of my divers could just step
21:19right in and we actually even use the
21:21same type of equipment
21:23that way it's all interchangeable so if
21:26we get a bigger scene that we could all
21:28work together
21:29as one scene as one unit but this
21:32particular time we divided it up into
21:33two
21:34like i said the galveston police
21:35department team dove to the
21:39left of that
21:42pier so are you um talking about this
21:45area here yes
21:46they dove to the left and towards shore
21:49okay how far how far south to towards
21:52the shore they
21:53all wait till the water was like inches
21:55deep where you could see what was on the
21:56bottom okay
21:58and how far out were they searching from
22:00about
22:0120 yards past the end of that pier okay
22:04and so they searched the whole area
22:06about 20 yards
22:08to the left of this pier well
22:11they actually went out farther going to
22:12the left of the pier they went out
22:14probably uh 75 to 100 feet
22:18and that's what our ropes are set at
22:22outside the pier but towards the north
22:25they only went out about 20 yards
22:27i'll say when you say the north the
22:28north beyond the north yes
22:30okay towards the open water
22:34correct okay and which area was your
22:37team responsible for
22:38we were responsible for the area between
22:41the two piers
22:42uh we we uh searched that area
22:45uh and actually some we actually went
22:48around that
22:49here on the right a little bit too but
22:51uh we searched out into the more open
22:53water
22:54beyond the piers how far out beyond the
22:56piers did you guys go
22:58um 20 30 40 yards something along that
23:01line
23:03so as a leader of the dive team and with
23:08the background training and experience
23:09that you have
23:11did you search an area that you deemed
23:13sufficient given the wind and water
23:15conditions at the time
23:16given what object you knew you were
23:18looking for yes okay
23:20in other words why didn't you go further
23:21out towards the open water
23:23wouldn't have been out there okay if it
23:25had been thrown out there and moved
23:26which direction would it have moved move
23:28towards the shore
23:28and you searched the entire area from 20
23:31to 30 yards out past those piers
23:33all the way into the shore correct and
23:35you searched that entire area between
23:37those two piers
23:37yes and you searched around that smaller
23:40pier well the other team did yes
23:42oh the smaller pier yes you're right and
23:43the other team searched the area
23:45i'm looking at this photograph to the
23:46left of the larger pier yes
23:48okay were you satisfied based on your
23:51background training experience
23:54that in total this entire area that was
23:56searched was sufficient
23:58to find what you were looking for yes
24:02so describe the search you can't see
24:04down there so what are you doing
24:06basically everything's done by feel uh
24:09the uh
24:10the diver is crawling along the bottom
24:13and is it is feeling the feeling the
24:16objects are on the bottom and anytime he
24:18runs into something he
24:20tries to identify it and in this
24:22particular case if it's something that
24:25maybe a rock that's the appropriate size
24:26he could actually stand up and look at
24:28it
24:28because it was that shallow but for the
24:31most part
24:32they're swimming are crawling along the
24:34bottom feeling the bottom to see what
24:36they can find
24:36so you're you could stand up out of the
24:38water oh yes yeah
24:39for the most part it's like four or five
24:41feet right there now as we got deeper we
24:43couldn't
24:43as we got deeper are you using like
24:45snorkels or do you have diapers no we
24:46full
24:46full dye gear okay so you're able to
24:48just focus your efforts on your search
24:50and not worry about breathing
24:51correct okay i mean not that you're not
24:53worried about breathing but
24:55you weren't deep enough to get the bends
24:56right you didn't no time your dives
25:00okay so um how do you know uh
25:03do you take any precautions to make sure
25:05you know you're searching every square
25:06inch
25:07absolutely what do you do well we we use
25:10primarily in a situation like this
25:12what's called a tether system
25:14the the diver his sole responsibility
25:17is to swim along the line he's got a
25:19tether that comes back to the shore
25:21that tender that that hells the
25:25he's the anchor that holds on to the
25:26line he controls where that diver
25:28searches
25:29so that diver is swimming along an arc
25:32uh
25:33from starting for example inside the the
25:36bulkhead there if he
25:37he's standing right there on the where
25:39the water meets the uh the shore right
25:41there
25:42he's standing right there he's
25:43controlling the diver who's swimming in
25:45an ark
25:46swimming away and out into deeper water
25:49so when he gets to the end the diver
25:51stops or the tender stops him he
25:53lets a little line out comes back along
25:56the
25:57along the line and stops it when it gets
25:58to the shore lets a little more line out
26:01and you do that all the way out and once
26:03you've completed the distance that we're
26:05looking for
26:06you then move the tender to another
26:09location
26:10and start the process over again
26:12overlapping a lot of the area that's
26:14already been searched
26:15which is the which is the main reason we
26:16do that let me ask you
26:18so i just know
26:23tetherball have you ever played
26:24tetherball sure okay so
26:26tetherball's got like a metal pole in
26:28the middle and there's a rope attached
26:29to it with the ball at the end
26:31and you hit the ball and it the goal is
26:33to try to get the circle to pull
26:35so there's no more rope right right okay
26:37so the pole in the tetherball example
26:40would that be
26:40the person you're describing as the
26:42tender yes okay
26:44so the tenders at this the end of the
26:45rope controlling how far that
26:48that diver is going to be out would the
26:50diver be the ball in my example
26:52yes okay and so as the divers at the end
26:54of the rope
26:57in my tetherball example would the diver
26:59be swimming back and forth
27:01at the as far as you can with the ropes
27:03allowing him yes
27:04and when he does that complete arch with
27:07the
27:07the pole person what's the whole person
27:09called the tender the tender would the
27:10tender let out
27:11a little more rope and say okay swim
27:13that arc again yes you'll go back and
27:15forth again
27:16yes and then the tender would let out a
27:18little more rope and let him go back and
27:19forth
27:20again yes so is the diver
27:23continuing to swim back and forth in an
27:26arc and the arc gets larger and larger
27:28and larger until the entire area is
27:29covered
27:30correct and then you move the pull or
27:32the attention
27:33yeah move it to another location which
27:35we map it out and figure out where we're
27:37going to go
27:37and then you pull the rope in and bring
27:39the diver close start out start over
27:41again
27:41so the diver literally starts like right
27:43next to you going back and forth and
27:44then goes further and further out
27:46yes okay and you do that from enough
27:48points
27:49where you're going to cover this entire
27:50area yes
27:52and in fact from your testimony
27:55you're going to do it in a way that
27:57you're going to actually have a bunch of
27:58overlap so the same area may get covered
28:00more than one time correct
28:02and this was the procedure that you used
28:04for the area that your team searched
28:06yes and did you see the galveston team
28:08doing their search as well
28:09absolutely and did they follow the same
28:11protocols and use the same system
28:13yes all right by the way even though
28:16you're separate
28:18entities were you guys basically working
28:19as one coordinated team absolutely we
28:22yeah we were we know them we
28:25they know us we know them so we're
28:27interacting with each other the whole
28:28time
28:29okay and i assume then if their team had
28:31found
28:32a head you would know about it
28:33absolutely okay there'd be some kind of
28:35commotion and probably a lot everyone
28:37were going to want to go look right
28:38yes okay so
28:41when the diver the ball in my example
28:45is conducting their arc search they're
28:48literally
28:49like on prone position laid out feeling
28:51the bottom
28:52yes okay mostly with a sweeping motion
28:55with their with their hands
28:57feeling along the bottom are you
29:00confident based on your background
29:01training your experience and what you
29:03saw that day
29:04that all these areas you described were
29:06completely and thoroughly searched
29:08yes
29:11did you find a head no did the galveston
29:14team find the head
29:15no no one found a head that's correct
29:19if a head was dumped let's assume
29:22that these body parts were found
29:26between those two bulkheads you were
29:29told
29:30generally where these body parts were
29:31found oh yes okay
29:33and
29:37and assume someone threw those body
29:39parts off of that
29:41here on the left there first of all if
29:44they throw at the end of the pier
29:46the body parts could go either direction
29:48on from that pier yes
29:49they can go to the left or to the right
29:52yes yes they could
29:53if you're standing on that bulkhead you
29:54could throw some to the right some of
29:56the left
29:56sure okay were
30:00were you satisfied based on the search
30:03that you um
30:07like conducted if someone had thrown
30:11those body parts at the same spot at the
30:13same time
30:15with the head thrown in at the same spot
30:17at the same time
30:18would you have found the head absolutely
30:21you have any doubt about that no doubt
30:24so in your opinion was that head thrown
30:26in the same spot at the same time as
30:27those other body parts
30:28no any doubt about that whatsoever no
30:32because it would have been done there
30:33we'd have found it
30:35what about marine animals was there any
30:37marine animals that live in this bay
30:38area that could have carried that head
30:39away
30:40the only marine animals that might be
30:42there in that area would be
30:45blue crabs which are about the size of
30:48my hand
30:49at biggest they're not going to move
30:50ahead they may eat on it
30:53but they're not going to move it any any
30:55doubt about that
30:56no there's no giant crabs in galveston
30:58bay they're going to carry that
30:59head away despite the picture of the one
31:02on the front of guy does that was not
31:03the one caught in galveston bay
31:05okay what about like
31:09sharks are there sharks at this time in
31:12this area
31:13not an adversary now no
31:16maybe farther out in the channel and
31:18stuff but not in that
31:19that's too shallow for them to be up in
31:21there okay
31:22so do you have any doubt in your mind
31:24whatsoever based on what you
31:25did and what you saw that that head was
31:28not deposited in the
31:29well no doubt assuming it was
31:34it was not deposited at the same time
31:36with those other body parts
31:39any doubt about that it was not
31:42deposited in that area before we were
31:46there
31:47of course it's possible that somebody
31:50deposited all the stuff
31:51at one time and then ripped open one of
31:54the bags came back later and took the
31:55head
31:57it's possible that's pure
32:03that's possible okay that would be
32:04another explanation for not having a
32:06head there right
32:07before we got there yeah okay any other
32:09scenario where you can conceive of
32:11why that head would not be found
32:16um
32:19those two it was thrown and
32:22recovered and removed or it wasn't
32:25thrown at all
32:26okay um
32:36what about a slope is there a slope in
32:38that area like away from shore where the
32:40head could have rolled on the bottom
32:41away
32:42now it doesn't really
32:46it's a gradual gray to go down it's very
32:50it's it's not i wouldn't even call it a
32:53slope
32:54given your knowledge of a human head if
32:57it had been thrown in and sunk to the
32:58bottom
32:59would it have been in your search area
33:02yes
33:02it would have been there okay and you
33:04didn't find it did not find it
33:06thank you nothing further cross
33:08examination
33:44good morning mr burroughs i'm dick
33:45tagarin and i represent
33:47bob durst along with my co-counsel we've
33:50never met have we
33:51oh yes we have really well i've gone up
33:54against you many times in galveston
33:55county
33:58in other cases yes okay well
34:01maybe it's the mask probably probably
34:05and the hair too i had longer hair back
34:06then uh
34:08longer than that quite a bit longer
34:12okay um
34:18well now you got me thinking about
34:20trying to remember what case it was
34:22maybe we'll spend a little few minutes
34:24when the we don't waste the jury's time
34:26about that
34:28at any rate um
34:33how long had the bags been in the water
34:36if you know
34:38before you started your search i do not
34:40know
34:44you started your search on uh
34:47what day please
34:51uh it would be i guess september
34:55the 29th the evening that evening
34:59i believe 2001
35:08a long time ago i was going to look at
35:11the reports i thought it was the 30th
35:15so i think we can still wait it was up
35:18there
35:21and it was at night it was an evening
35:24yes
35:24okay uh do you know when
35:28the bags that contain the other body
35:32parts were found
35:37no they
35:37[Music]
35:40when i got the call to go out there
35:43the galveston police department was
35:44already on the scene and
35:46in fact the medical examiner was already
35:49there as well
35:51and those recoveries had been made
35:52before i got there
35:54uh if there's information that it was
35:57about six o'clock in the evening
35:59when um the boy and his stepfather
36:03discovered the torso would that be
36:06consistent with what you know
36:08sure all right so you were there
36:13four to six hours after
36:17the discovery of the bags right correct
36:21and i take it that your search took
36:24hours
36:25very much so yeah into the next day into
36:28the next morning
36:31you have to answer
36:37and you said that there was a norther
36:40that had blown in
36:41correct now we might have to explain
36:44out here in california what a norther is
36:48and maybe we even explain what a blue
36:50norther is
36:52um it's uh
36:58cold air that comes down from the north
37:02blowing toward the south is that a app
37:05description fair yes
37:07there's a saying in texas that there's
37:09nothing but barbed wire fence between
37:12there and the north pole you've heard
37:15that haven't you i have
37:17when did the norther blow in
37:20i don't remember
37:26you mentioned that the wind is
37:29an influence on the movement of water
37:33and there was a north wind at the time
37:35you were there
37:38i believe it says beginning at
37:42200 hours that'd be eight o'clock right
37:48sure i mean that's military time twenty
37:51hundred hours twenty hundred hours is
37:52eight o'clock
37:53okay that p.m right
37:57yes had to had the northern blown in
38:00that day
38:02when i got there that evening
38:05and was looking and evaluating the scene
38:07about what we were going to do
38:09the wind was blowing in my face as i was
38:12standing on the bulkhead
38:14okay time factor i don't have a clue
38:16what time it was
38:17are there published tied and
38:22current figures yes did you check those
38:26no
38:30and so we can understand that the
38:32published
38:33tied and current figures are done by the
38:37uh some national uh federal agency
38:42right sure they're done by but they're
38:44also at a specific
38:46location not that location they're done
38:48for various locations like the entrance
38:50to galveston bay
38:51to the texas city dike to the entrance
38:54to clear lake
38:55these areas like this but not at that
38:57specific location so they're going to be
38:58off by a few hours
39:01but there are multiple locations where
39:02those measurements are taken and
39:04recorded and reported
39:05yes and there are also
39:11[Music]
39:12forecasts as to the tides and currents
39:15right correct and you did not check
39:18those either i did not
39:23so um
39:26were you aware that
39:29bags either containing
39:33body parts or evidence
39:36were found along on both sides of that
39:41concrete pier yes
39:45and that one set of bags in particular
39:49three bags were found some 500
39:55feet or 500 paces away from where the
39:58torso was found
40:01okay were you aware of that no
40:06is it correct that there were bags that
40:08were
40:09found on both sides of the pier
40:12that we're looking at yes all right
40:17and were you aware that there was a set
40:19of bags
40:20three that appeared to be have been in
40:23each other
40:24that were empty
40:27of body parts at the time i was not
40:31aware
40:32but i am now okay you've been made aware
40:35of it at some point
40:36when were you made aware of that oh
40:39gosh a number of years ago but it was
40:42somewhat after though
40:43i mean it was
40:47i guess it would have been before the
40:50trial
40:51in galveston
40:55all right um now you did not testify in
40:59the trial and galveston did correct
41:01were you did they tell you you weren't
41:04going to testify because they found some
41:05empty bags
41:07no the empty bags had
41:12tears in them or slits in them
41:15that were from two and a half to three
41:17feet big did you know that i had heard
41:20that yes
41:22if one of those bags or if they were
41:25concentric that is
41:26one bag inside another bag inside
41:28another bag and they had they all had
41:30those
41:31that sled in it if the head had been in
41:34in that that would be plenty of room for
41:37a head to come
41:38out of the bag wouldn't it depends on
41:41how long the slits were i mean
41:43two and a half to three feet i'd have to
41:44have to look at i'd have to
41:47i can't make a decision based sorry i
41:48can't make a decision based on your
41:50description
41:51okay well let me tell you that we've
41:53stipulated that we've agreed
41:55right before you testified that the
41:58slits in those bags
42:00were from two and a half to three feet
42:03two and a half to three feet i'm
42:06just guessing with my hands right now
42:09that's plenty big enough for a
42:11head to come out of that bag right okay
42:15is it i guess it's possible
42:26now the wind is one
42:30factor in the movement of the water but
42:31tides are also a factor in movement of
42:34water
42:34right correct and
42:37uh as a long-time galveston resident you
42:40know that
42:42the tides uh can be several feet
42:47that is raising and lowering of the
42:50water several feet
42:51oh in extreme circumstances yes but for
42:54the most part
42:55the the tidal flow is not more than a
42:59foot foot and a half at the most
43:03and the tides
43:07operate several times a day don't they
43:11in some cases yes well i mean there are
43:15times that there's only one tied a day
43:17in a 24-hour period okay did you check
43:20to see how
43:21many tides there had been that
43:24day or preceding that day when you were
43:27out there i did not
43:29was the tide coming in or going out when
43:31you were out there diving
43:32i don't know or did it change while you
43:35were there
43:36it i don't i don't call
43:44now the picture that's on the screen
43:48what number is that
43:59people's exhibit 184 okay
44:02the picture's on the screen
44:09that almost looks like blue water
44:10doesn't it
44:12yeah that's not what
44:16that's not what the water in galveston
44:17bay looks like
44:19is it not routinely no know or
44:22on that day
44:26the water that we were in was was pretty
44:29pretty muddy
44:31and by pretty muddy you mean
44:34maybe you can see an inch or so in front
44:36of you not even that
44:37not even that far not even that okay
44:40so you're relegated to having to feel
44:44yes the uh
44:48the bottom of the water bottom
44:51yeah the bottom yes and
44:55it's true isn't it that galveston bay is
44:58very large but it's also very shallow
45:01for the most part yes and by very large
45:03we're talking about
45:04miles and miles across at places aren't
45:07we correct
45:08let me um if we can
45:14got a couple of maps here let me make
45:17sure that we can
45:19mark these
45:32i have a defendant's exhibit number
45:36please ma'am
45:59uh
46:02charts as d
46:06one two and three all right
46:10so here's d1
46:23i'm assuming you're familiar with
46:25nautical charts
46:27i am and does that appear to be a
46:29nautical chart
46:30of uh galveston island uh
46:33part of galveston bay which would be
46:37the beginning of the east bay and uh
46:45well is that what that is yes all right
46:50now the area where you searched
46:55is uh toward uh
46:59the north side of galveston island
47:03about can you point to it on that
47:07screen i think it is about in here isn't
47:10it
47:10no that's uh
47:14tell me where to move the pin
47:20that could be where the causeway is it
47:22move farther to your right and
47:24up right up right around and there i
47:26believe
47:27okay yeah right there all right
47:35i'm just going to put a circle around
47:37that general area
47:42is that about correct i believe so yes
47:45all right
47:50now of that area
47:54you searched of course we don't have a
47:56scale here
47:57uh you searched uh as much as
48:01uh 75 to 100 feet out from
48:05the shoreline yes but no further
48:08no and
48:17so what's
48:21what's out here that's pretty much all
48:24open
48:25water um a lot of fishermen like to go
48:29out in there and
48:30drift fish
48:34and there's actually another channel
48:37farther obviously where it says 6.9 5.9
48:39that's an old channel
48:41that comes into this where pier 77
48:44channel is right there so that's
48:46it's pretty much all open water it's
48:47just shallow
48:49okay in fact that open water
48:52goes all the way up to uh
48:56here's a this is um mark this is
49:03d3
49:07this is a little bit larger perspective
49:12of the galveston bay area and galveston
49:14island
49:19where i'm pointing being galveston
49:21island correct correct
49:24and uh galveston bay being
49:27this blue part that's uh that's east
49:30galveston bay
49:32and west galveston bay down toward the
49:34west
49:37is that actually this is west bay
49:40here right east bay is up above
49:43baltimore peninsula
49:44uh-huh and galveston bay is right there
49:47in the center
49:48and goes up towards trinity bay and uh
49:50up in that deeper that's all
49:51that's all gallant bay complex right
49:56so how many miles is it across let's
49:59first
49:59start across from where you did your
50:02search
50:03over to texas city that's probably the
50:05closest
50:06well where you're pointing that's
50:08pelican island um
50:10further down pelican is right here no
50:12that's that's pelican island the search
50:13area is farther down
50:16right about where i'm pointing now uh
50:19kinda but more to your left
50:22well if you give may i have the
50:26pointer i don't know if we've got a
50:29point here
50:31we got one will that work
50:36she usually doesn't work on projection
50:38all right
50:43[Music]
50:44perfect nice
50:48that's that's why his face max says
50:54put the element back up who wants the
50:57other one too
50:58oh you want the other one i'll show you
51:00about where
51:02are you referring to on the screen now
51:05will be d3
51:11zoomed out this area here is pelican
51:13island
51:14and this right this is where the
51:16causeway goes across
51:18to get to get to mainland to galveston
51:20island so
51:21just north of there around that g
51:24i guess that's the jeep right about 70
51:27is where we're talking about
51:28okay and so my question was we see texas
51:31city
51:33here um
51:36how far is it from where you were your
51:39search area
51:40to texas city several miles
51:43uh i don't know exactly between three
51:46and five miles yeah
51:47several miles okay so we have that
51:51perspective that
52:03if the search area is where we've
52:05circled
52:06it's three to five miles across here
52:09uh none of this is searched right
52:12actually
52:13this is the mainland right here yes this
52:15is the railroad
52:16bridge and crosses to galveston island
52:20so however when you talk about from here
52:22to the mainland there's a direct line
52:24uh it's it's not going to be three to
52:27five miles because the causeway is not
52:28three to five miles long
52:30but it's it's at least two miles per
52:32hour maybe
52:33four and a half miles
52:38okay so you search
52:42maximum 100 feet from the shore but
52:46there's
52:48a couple of miles several miles
52:50depending on which direction you go
52:52of open bay yes
53:12huh
53:35okay of course the this nautical map
53:39doesn't have the
53:40highways or roads
53:44in galveston or in this neighborhood in
53:46galveston or
53:48any other road for that matter but
53:52this brown area that's on the screen
53:55that's all galveston island right
53:57correct
53:58in fact there's a blue area down here
54:02that's just a bio or
54:07what we call the bio
54:10off its bio right that's correct and
54:14here's another a little bit
54:18more perspective
54:21this will be d2
54:30this is zoomed out a little bit uh
54:34office bio is about where i'm pointing
54:36here right
54:37yes and that but
54:40galveston island is on both sides of
54:43office bible
54:44yes and the search area again
54:49was right here
54:52correct mr garen has placed a circle on
54:56them
54:57he placed a circle on d three is that d2
55:05or d3
55:07that's d2 you're right sorry
55:13okay so this gives us a little bit more
55:15perspective
55:16about the distance between the search
55:20area and the rest of the bay
55:22particularly the pro
55:23the closest point of land would be
55:27about where i'm pointing right okay
55:31yeah that's that's at least the length
55:33of the
55:34causeway and the causeways two miles
55:38[Music]
55:40ah i don't know
55:46okay
55:54did you ever go um
55:57how many days were you out there by the
55:59way uh we was out there
56:07day and a half okay did you ever go back
56:11and try to go further out into the bay
56:14no is there a
56:18commercial fishing uh activity out in
56:21the bay there
56:22out in the bay yes and that's uh like
56:25shrimp boats
56:26yes shrimp boats generally drag nets
56:30correct
56:35and how close to the shore do those
56:36shrimp boats get they are not varied
56:38because it's too shallow for them
56:41they'd be running the shrimp they'd be
56:42running the shrimp boat of ground right
56:45uh but then later out in the in the bay
56:48there's five to seven feet
56:52farther away from land yes they they i
56:54mean you're looking probably
56:57several hundred yards that they would
56:59stay offshore which
57:00quite honestly i've never seen a shrimp
57:02boat there
57:04and the uh there are several channels
57:06that are cut through there
57:08is that right yes channels that are
57:10dredged
57:12well they used to be not anymore the
57:15i mean particularly the intercoastal
57:17canal or the intercoastal waterway
57:19the intercoastal is yes and that goes
57:21all the way from
57:27jacksonville florida to to uh
57:30uh to the tip of texas in brownsville
57:32doesn't it yes
57:34big boats uh go on that
57:37yeah that runs right here
57:40right and there's also the houston ship
57:44channel right correct and the texas city
57:48ship channel right yes
57:51and they those are uh channels that are
57:54dug
57:55uh dredged to
57:58depth enough for large boats
58:02ships to use them right yes
58:06to 40 feet 50 feet
58:09no the i'm trying to remember what the
58:12what the it's been so long
58:16they're they're dredged
58:20to a certain depth and i can't remember
58:21what it is but it's it's probably
58:2325 feet or so because there's there
58:26the length of their vessels are limited
58:28as far as
58:30even our channels there are not meant to
58:32bring in the super tankers
58:34which would have a much greater depth
58:37but those
58:38those ship channels are
58:41i want to say 25 to 30 foot deep and you
58:45you're not talking about the houston
58:47chip channel i'm talking about the texas
58:48city channel
58:49yeah and tech city channel and
58:51intercoastal the intercoastal is only
58:52is 17 foot deep but that uh
58:57probably not important but that the
59:01the intercoastal accommodates
59:04tugboats and barges correct
59:09so
59:13as far as the search was concerned
59:17to sum it up you searched an area of
59:21how many would you can you estimate how
59:24many square feet
59:26you searched
59:32um
59:36i got a calculator i can calculate it i
59:38mean i
59:39you saw the area that i outlined
59:42but just that area that i outlined on
59:45direct
59:46right now
59:49we know from
59:53something about the distance of where
59:55the
59:56bags that still had body parts in them
59:58were found and the
1:00:01three bags that had the big slit in it
1:00:03were found that was
1:00:04something like 500 paces away from and
1:00:07on the other side of the
1:00:09pier right like i said
1:00:12i don't know where those were found
1:00:14we've had a stipulation about that
1:00:17assuming that they were found some 500
1:00:19paces
1:00:21and on the other side of the pier that
1:00:22means that those bags
1:00:24if they were all thrown in the same
1:00:26place that means that those bags had
1:00:29traveled
1:00:29that far in the time between what they
1:00:33were thrown in and when you were there
1:00:35right well that would actually make
1:00:37sense
1:00:38due to the fact that there was nothing
1:00:40to hold them down at all the wind
1:00:42they were really subject to the wind
1:00:44it's like throwing a feather into the
1:00:45wind it's going to blow wherever it
1:00:46wants to blow
1:00:48but the answer is that's correct they
1:00:50had gone
1:00:52500 paces assuming that we have our
1:00:55stipulation they'd gone 500 paces
1:00:58from the other bags okay
1:01:03and they were empty right
1:01:06okay yes did you know that i do now
1:01:10okay and did you know that they were
1:01:13found with
1:01:14mars black's blood in them
1:01:19i assumed that they were yes okay
1:01:25i believe that's all yes please
1:01:34when you say you search 75-100 feet from
1:01:37the shoreline in response to mr
1:01:39daguerreon's questions i just want to be
1:01:40clear
1:01:42when you say shoreline you're talking
1:01:44about all
1:01:45shore protrusions is that right oh yes
1:01:47so in other words if you've got
1:01:54page two of people's 184
1:01:58those two peers again you you search
1:02:01that entire area between those two piers
1:02:03yes and beyond the amount you've
1:02:07indicated
1:02:08yes and then
1:02:11to the left side of it looking at this
1:02:13photograph
1:02:14as well with search the distance you've
1:02:16already indicated yes okay
1:02:20so mr degaran asked you why you didn't
1:02:24search the entire
1:02:25gulf of mexico or not gulf of mexico but
1:02:28uh galveston bay
1:02:30you understand the questions i'm talking
1:02:31about i do why didn't you uh
1:02:34search the entire galveston bed
1:02:38when we got to that scene that day
1:02:42that night we met
1:02:45with the investigators we met with the
1:02:47crime scene guys
1:02:49based on the information that we were
1:02:51given by them
1:02:53we as a dive team prepared a plan
1:02:58when i say prepared a plan we divided
1:03:00the scene in half
1:03:02galveston police took one half and we
1:03:04took the other half
1:03:06and in that plan we decided
1:03:09how far out and we also limited the
1:03:12tether that i spoke about earlier the
1:03:14the line that is being held by the
1:03:17tinder
1:03:18is 75 foot long
1:03:21we have a hundred footer but we don't
1:03:22like to use it because it's
1:03:24becomes more cumbersome the farther
1:03:26farther out you go we can use it but
1:03:28it's more cumbersome than
1:03:29the more length so we made this plan and
1:03:32every place that we put this tinder
1:03:34that's how far that guy searched
1:03:36and when you formulated this plan did
1:03:38you take into consideration the water
1:03:40and wind conditions sure
1:03:42so you could have certainly taken that
1:03:45rope
1:03:45five miles offshore into the chipping
1:03:47channels right if we had a boat we got
1:03:48going out there
1:03:49yes sure okay so would would you have
1:03:52gone out
1:03:53to the main body of water in the
1:03:55shipping channels and searched out there
1:03:56we didn't need to
1:03:57okay and why didn't you need to because
1:03:59the wind conditions based on the
1:04:00information we received the wind
1:04:02conditions
1:04:02the water conditions of that time the
1:04:04area that we searched
1:04:06we would have found the head if it was
1:04:07there and what is the
1:04:10golfs and bay drain into the gulf of
1:04:12mexico
1:04:13okay did you search the gulf of mexico
1:04:15did not why not didn't need to
1:04:17okay so
1:04:20i want you to assume so what you're
1:04:22saying is based on the wind conditions
1:04:24anything that was in there
1:04:25thrown from that area from that pier
1:04:27would have blown back to shore
1:04:28sure and you searched all the areas
1:04:31that would have that would have
1:04:32contained items that floated in that
1:04:34area
1:04:35yes okay if as part of the sheriff's
1:04:38department
1:04:39if a head was found on galveston island
1:04:41would you become aware of that
1:04:42yeah okay after that search was any head
1:04:44ever found on the shoreline
1:04:46it was not okay um i'm gonna show you
1:04:49what's been marked as
1:04:52page 19
1:04:55with people's 184. see that red circle
1:04:58area
1:04:59i do i want you to assume that that's
1:05:00the stipulated 500 paces to the
1:05:03east um where this
1:05:06other bag was found can you orient
1:05:08yourself to where that was found in
1:05:09relation to the area you searched
1:05:11yes okay and then i'm going to show you
1:05:14page 20 of the same exhibit
1:05:16and that's and actually an example a
1:05:19photograph of these bags that were found
1:05:21in that area
1:05:22so you see how these are found on shore
1:05:24yes is that consistent with the wind and
1:05:26water conditions
1:05:27of what you're describing or where you
1:05:28would expect it to be found yes does it
1:05:30surprise you that one of the bags was
1:05:32found in that area
1:05:33no given the wind conditions absolutely
1:05:35not and
1:05:36these bags float right yes like a boy
1:05:39who throws a
1:05:40toy boat into the water if the wind is
1:05:43pushing it it's going to get pushed
1:05:44right
1:05:44correct i want you to assume you know
1:05:47where the railroad tracks are
1:05:48i do okay i want you to assume that
1:05:51entire shoreline was searched
1:05:54from the area you searched all the way
1:05:55to the railroad tracks
1:05:57the sherlock i do know that the
1:05:59shoreline was walked by galveston police
1:06:00officers i want you i'm telling you i
1:06:02want you to assume it was searched
1:06:04and no head was found okay
1:06:14is there any other areas you could think
1:06:16of where that head would have gone
1:06:21if it had been thrown at that location
1:06:23no no
1:06:24okay and if it would have rolled it
1:06:27would have
1:06:28moved underwater it would have moved
1:06:29towards shore is that right
1:06:32yeah if it wouldn't roll but if it were
1:06:34floating in a bag it would have floated
1:06:36to shore yes
1:06:37okay and no one found it no one found it
1:06:41anything else briefly
1:06:50your search plan was based on the
1:06:53conditions you found at the time you
1:06:55went there
1:06:56correct and the conditions at the time
1:06:58you went there
1:06:59norther had blown in at some time that
1:07:02you don't know
1:07:03right before i got there
1:07:06right uh and you don't know how long
1:07:09that had been
1:07:12no your and so your plan and your
1:07:15conclusions
1:07:17are based on the conditions that you
1:07:19found when you were there
1:07:20and the items that had been recovered
1:07:22that was part of the plan as well
1:07:24it's true isn't it that the prevailing
1:07:26wind
1:07:27in galveston is from the southeast
1:07:29correct
1:07:31exactly the opposite of the northern
1:07:35that you found when you went there
1:07:40correct that's all
1:07:42[Music]
1:07:43no thank you did the sweetness be
1:07:45excused yes
1:07:46your excuse sir thank you excuse me yes
1:07:50thank you
1:07:51you'll wait five minutes
1:07:54okay all right i'll give you that chance
1:07:58uh
1:07:58now because we're going to uh break to 1
1:08:0230.
1:08:02ladies and gentlemen do not converse
1:08:04among yourselves with anyone else on any
1:08:06subject
1:08:06make it with this case do not form or
1:08:08express any opinion on the case

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