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CA v. Robert Durst Murder Trial Day 22 - Ret Chf. Robert Curtis & Douglas Durst, Defendant's Brother — Transcript

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0:00yeah that's weird
0:08and uh mr durst is the president mr
0:11karen and mr
0:13chestnut mr ray we have mr lew and
0:16bailey and
0:17mia anderson and emilius and mr lewis
0:20isn't that
0:21so a couple things as i've told all
0:24council
0:25we have now a new policy in the
0:28court with the changing of pandemic
0:31conditions social distancing isn't
0:34required any longer
0:36thus i will be inviting jurors to
0:39[Music]
0:40to take seats in the jury box i'm going
0:43to encourage them
0:45as much as possible to do that but i do
0:47feel a sense of obligation to those who
0:50have agreed to this
0:54come back and and have been accustomed
0:56to
0:57that distance i don't know if everyone's
1:00vaccinated
1:01that might make a difference to them the
1:03masks are our protection
1:05from the those of us who are vaccinated
1:08of course
1:09probably don't need to worry but the
1:11concern is an ascertainment of
1:13we don't have a way to ascertain who is
1:15who is not thus we may have unvaccinated
1:18people together
1:20the masters thus still required so i am
1:23going to invite them to uh to be in the
1:25jury box where they ought to be that
1:26means that we're going to be able to
1:28fully uh we'll be able to admit public
1:31and
1:32media only one camera but but still
1:37so i will be doing that i'll be talking
1:39with the jurors i'm actually going to
1:41come down and talk to them
1:42from the lectern and
1:47now uh mr lewin you wanted to bring an
1:49issue to my attention before we brought
1:50the jurors in
1:51yes your honor um on
1:55wednesday thursday when we were last in
1:56court i noticed that at 2 30 p.m
2:00mr durst uh back was all the way full
2:04this brings up a number of issues first
2:06of all i had asked him and his attorneys
2:09i had said that it needed to be changed
2:10and they
2:11informed me that if if i wanted to do
2:14that they were certainly appreciative
2:16and
2:17mr durst was asked he said he did not
2:19want to change
2:20i had the opportunity over the weekend
2:22to look at some footage from court
2:24and there were three different occasions
2:26that i was able to see
2:28in the last uh two weeks where mr durst
2:30either deliberately
2:31held up his bag to the jury or
2:35maneuvered his seat to take away
2:38the cover so the jury could see his bat
2:41why is that important
2:42because mr durst is on record and in
2:44fact has previously done this before
2:47has admitted to deliberately attempting
2:50to
2:51increase sympathy with jurors and the
2:53public by displaying
2:55either his shunt by shaving his head
2:57before arraignment in new orleans
2:59by lowering his chair and galveston for
3:01the trial things like that and so my
3:03concern is is
3:04number one there's a legitimate need
3:06where this bag needs to be drained
3:09uh during the day the problem is that if
3:12the bag fills up all the way
3:14especially with this bladder cancer
3:16there can certainly be a risk of
3:17infection
3:18and although i'm sure because i noticed
3:20the beginning of the day
3:22his bag is almost empty so it's a normal
3:24process that it's going to fill up
3:26but if at 2 30 it's full and he's not
3:29going to get back until much later than
3:30that it needs to be drained
3:32by somebody over the lunch hour whether
3:34mr durst wants it
3:36drained or not and draining just so it's
3:38clear your honor does not involve doing
3:40anything to mr durst it involves simply
3:41holding the bag
3:43over a toilet and releasing the valve on
3:45the bag and it
3:46drains out so we would ask that that be
3:49done
3:49number one because it should be done to
3:52ensure that mr durst is able
3:54to be present during this trial going
3:56forward
3:57and number two because i want to make
3:59sure that that bag is not utilized as a
4:02prop
4:02by mr durst in an attempt to uh
4:05encourage sympathy for himself etc
4:08all right death uh thank you mr lewin uh
4:12you need to say anything mr mcgaren well
4:14that's a
4:15pretty good example of why we shouldn't
4:16be in trial your honor he's
4:18in need of medical attention we're
4:21unable to get
4:22the urology consultation timely
4:26the uh cardiology consultation has been
4:30canceled or uh it's just a hi how are
4:33you and no examination and all that sort
4:35of thing
4:36so we're very concerned about his
4:39medical condition it's not fake that the
4:41doctors place that tube
4:45and i'm not a doctor
4:49mr lewin's not a doctor and i think that
4:53whatever
4:54care that he needs needs to be done by
4:56the doctors
4:57all right well changing a bag isn't
4:59really a medical procedure but
5:01uh mr durst is has uh is uh standing
5:04perhaps he wishes to be recognized
5:06do you want him to speak i don't know
5:08why he's standing your honor i haven't
5:11well converse with him tell me all right
5:13what he wants to do
5:15demonstrating he's able to stand so i'm
5:17i'm glad for that
5:19and i don't as far as mr lewin's uh
5:22comments about uh eliciting sympathy
5:25if that's something the jury might have
5:27observed during the trial mr lewin might
5:28comment about that during his
5:31argument as far as mr durst health
5:35i'll make inquiries as to what we
5:44i did speak to mr garcia over the
5:46weekend and
5:47mr garcia said that potentially
5:51i volunteered to show him what he would
5:53need to do and they can
5:54drain it it's a one minute procedure to
5:57just empty it at lunch
5:58and that will eliminate the issue i see
6:00mr garcia represents mr verse also but
6:03yeah in a criminal matter
6:04did he does wish to speak your honor
6:07of course yes mr durst you may speak
6:15mr ruin is incorrect i am not seeking
6:20sympathy from the truth
6:23my head is shaved this is the only kind
6:26of haircut that i'm able to get
6:29in the jab in terms of he talked about
6:34my
6:35in galveston the va said i
6:38lowered my chair i would look little
6:42everybody thought that was ridiculous
6:45i put the chair in the height that was
6:47convenient for me
6:50in terms of this whole thing about my
6:53seeking sympathy
6:54and trying to harm myself with my
6:58catheter bag
6:59i have been doing everything possible
7:02to get the juror to get the doctors at
7:05ctc
7:07to remove the bag i don't want to have
7:11the catheter
7:12at all this issue are emptying
7:16the bag is something mr woon is raising
7:20i don't think it's meaningful i would
7:23request the court
7:25if the court can do so to encourage the
7:29doctors at ctc
7:31to remove the catheter since nobody is
7:35willing to tell me why i have a password
7:38iran
7:39thank you your honor you're welcome mr
7:42durst
7:42i will take all that under consideration
7:45i did talk with the
7:46lawyer for who represents
7:49the medical uh staff
7:53and i'll be in conversation with her and
7:56i will
7:57discuss this issue with her so uh with
8:00that thank you
8:01let's um shall we
8:05bring in our jurors and then i'll speak
8:07with them about
8:09seating thank you let's do that and
8:11we'll do a formula
8:12so i'll stay inside for a moment
8:19department one
8:31all our jersey alternates are present mr
8:34durst is present
8:36with mr de guerin and mr chest off mr
8:39ray
8:39mr lewis for the people mr
8:42lewin mr balian mr miata mr henderson
8:46mr millions
8:49all right we have some news and
8:53changes and once again because it's hard
8:56for me to communicate with
8:58you from up here i think i'm going to
9:00come down and
9:01chat with you a little bit
9:10so this is this is good news
9:16and as you know pandemic
9:21circumstances have have changed you
9:23pointed to your mask i wish i could tell
9:25you we didn't have
9:26we didn't mess we still need masks a
9:29little bit
9:30longer but there are some changes
9:33and let me read an announcement from our
9:36presiding judge presiding judge of the
9:39los
9:39angeles superior report expanding access
9:42to justice safely remains the court's
9:45top priority
9:46during the pandemic the court adopted
9:48alternative services and solutions to
9:51offer safe access
9:53to justice today i'm pleased to announce
9:55the court is aligning with
9:58and responsibly following federal state
10:00and county public health and calabasha
10:03workplace guidance that eliminates
10:06social distancing
10:07in public spaces public health guidance
10:10also
10:11dictates safety measures including mask
10:13wearing to protect
10:14workers and the public from the spread
10:18of the virus
10:19and those persons not yet vaccinated
10:22this is a huge step
10:23forward in our rise from the pandemic
10:27so this is what what this means
10:30we still need the mask to protect
10:32because people for
10:33whatever reason are not vaccinated
10:36there's some
10:37risk of infection uh with a vaccination
10:40though it's
10:41it's pretty small comparable to other
10:42risks we take in daily life so
10:46but still in order to protect those who
10:49are
10:49not yet vaccinated we still need that
10:52but because of the social distancing
10:55change that
10:56means a couple of things first of all
10:58our courts are going to be
11:00more open to the public every everyone
11:02has the right to have a public trial
11:04so we are going to be bringing more
11:06public in
11:07we've not allowed we've only allowed one
11:09seat
11:10for members of the public one seat for
11:12media in addition to our camera that's
11:15all we've been able to
11:17do in this courtroom given our social
11:20distancing
11:21mandate the great news is we have this
11:24beautiful
11:25jury box and
11:29i really would like to have you
11:32up there i said from the beginning i i'm
11:36so
11:37accustomed to in my own courtroom
11:40department 81
11:42looking looking over and being able to
11:44glance at you and communicate with you
11:46see how you're doing
11:48likewise the lawyers find it easier to
11:50communicate
11:52with you when you're when you're nearby
11:54and and perhaps most importantly the the
11:56witnesses
11:57are there more easily audible more
12:00easily
12:00visible to you so
12:05it is a i mean the courts are designed
12:07in this way for a reason we're not
12:08designed really with the
12:10jurors in the audience we're designed to
12:11have jurors in the
12:13in the jury box now that being said
12:19i cannot emphasize enough how
12:23gratified i am how proud i am of you
12:27that 14 months after we adjourned you
12:30all came back i mean to me that that
12:33means so much
12:34about you and about our system
12:37and the fact that that you have
12:40and continue to do this this important
12:44work of
12:45of judging a criminal case
12:48so i feel obliged to you
12:52to respect your space and your
12:55comfort so i am not going to mandate
12:58today that you come to the jury box but
13:01i want to invite you to come
13:03try it out now if you are
13:07uncomfortable because
13:10yes it's nice to have space it'd be
13:12great if we had a great deep jewelry box
13:14and you know plush first class seats
13:17that'd be cool but really that's not
13:20realistic we don't we don't do that so
13:22it is a little bit close
13:24you may feel more comfortable because
13:27there still is
13:28we still are in a pandemic there still
13:31is
13:32it's up to you to determine how much
13:33risk you you might feel or might be
13:36willing to take
13:36i think it's pretty safe but so i'm
13:39going to invite each of you in turn
13:42come up take take seats and the jury box
13:44if you care to remain i'm going to
13:46re-seat you
13:47because i i really don't want the press
13:50or public leaning over you if you're
13:51going if you choose to stay
13:53here all obvious i could
13:56after i see how many people want to come
13:58up i'll uh
14:00we'll see what we need to do and we'll
14:02reseat you and we'll
14:04have a small area for i think for the
14:07jurors who
14:08any jersey want to remain out here so
14:10that's what we're going to do i'm going
14:11to invite you
14:12invite you up in turn to take seats and
14:14to bring bring your little
14:16clip with you with your seat number just
14:18in case you're you're not
14:20seated sequentially yeah so
14:23all right great um and then we'll
14:25proceed with i think we have a live
14:28witness and
14:29we do have some some video tape
14:32testimony also awaiting us
14:46all right i'll start with your number
14:47one
14:50okay
14:54i'll put you up in seat number one and
14:56you're number two
14:57right behind her yeah i think you get at
15:00the top
15:01yeah she can enter in that side that
15:02works are we gonna do it that way
15:05okay that's that's fine and
15:08we're backwards like like like we're
15:10reading hebrew or something
15:12you know we go we go backwards in
15:14department uh
15:16that's yeah i think that would be it one
15:19and two
15:20i'm just so accustomed to reading
15:21backwards after so many years uh
15:2312 years in my courtroom turn number
15:25three come on up
15:27with your number four
15:34turn number five and through number six
15:48if they don't like your honor we're
15:49happy to move back that is the best
16:03screens also
16:29you're 11 and 12. i've got room for you
16:34now
17:00yeah or do we put them on that side
17:03i don't remember okay 13.
17:1616-17
17:24we'll need to roll one more chair here
17:26here comes
17:32two more chairs okay
17:36here they come we're gonna pass them
17:37down for you
17:58here
18:04yeah but we may need more for the
18:05lawyers
18:09i thought we'd put 19. i think if you're
18:11down below this next to the step
18:14i don't want to block that exit so that
18:16i think if you
18:17are i don't know yeah that's good
18:21that's fine
18:24rather we're not going to scare them and
18:26let them think we have to give
18:32yeah why not opening statements from
18:33time to time
19:05now you folks are awesome it's so nice
19:08to see you just
19:21good okay we need a couple more to
19:23cherish the lawyers
19:33it's particularly hard for me to see
19:35over on that side so it's really
19:37it's like i remember you guys
19:56one more one more did we lose
20:18all right let's uh let's let's get back
20:21to it
20:21so um you got a friend on the outside um
20:29uh so um
20:34teenager i have a teenager so yeah
20:39i recognize it
20:42all right i understand that we have a
20:44you have uh we're going to interrupt
20:46that videotaped
20:48testimony to present a testimony of a
20:50person who's present today
20:52we are your honor although first mr
20:54balian has about
20:5520 minutes i think of stipulations and
20:57then we're going to call a live witness
21:0020 minutes well it's not all
21:02stipulations there's some video as well
21:05oh stipulations in the videos correct
21:07one and then our
21:08and then yes very well because it makes
21:11sense to present them before the witness
21:13testifies
21:14sort of uh ways to ground work well it
21:16connects back up to
21:18where we were before i i just follow
21:19what mr bailey tells me no right i think
21:22it's uh if it's logical now you want
21:24that witness to be outside during those
21:25stipulations
21:27the witness isn't here anyway okay very
21:30good
21:33right with that
21:36mr bailey and you may present the
21:39stipulations
21:41thank you your honor
21:45just now back to the way things used to
21:47be it's great
21:50your honor i have a stipulation
21:53i mean mark this is people's 175. we'll
21:56get the original stipulation
22:02stipulation nine originally
22:06yes can i read it yes
22:11council we used to play to the following
22:15in the year 2000 ria
22:18ionides i o a n
22:22n i d i s was employed as a secretary
22:26for the beverly hills police department
22:29one of miss ionitis's work
22:31responsibilities
22:33was to collect and distribute mail that
22:35was received at the beverly hills police
22:38department
22:40on december 27
22:432000 the beverly hills police department
22:47received a sealed envelope in the u.s
22:50mail
22:52the envelope was addressed as follows
22:55beverly hills police
22:59miss eunitis collected this envelope and
23:02gave it to sergeant robert
23:03curtis the document
23:07marked for identification previously as
23:10people's exhibit 128
23:13is the envelope ria ionitis
23:17received the document
23:20marked for identity identification
23:22previously as
23:23people's exhibit 129
23:26is the letter that was contained within
23:28people's exhibit 128.
23:31when it was received by ms ian eunice at
23:33the beverly hills police department so
23:36stipulated
23:38court accepts typically your honor we
23:41have
23:42a stipulated video
23:59and this is the testimony of sergeant
24:01robert curtis of the beverly hills
24:02police department
24:03it's 12 minutes
24:20pardon me
24:29does um little bit closer does anyone
24:33want to
24:44transcript
24:51[Music]
25:01[Music]
25:06your honor one of the jurors inquired
25:11whether we could turn this screen
25:14towards them
25:14um given my luck with the tvs
25:22i think it was the sparkle just kind of
25:24i'm happy to deal with several people
25:26just sliding we would just need to
25:29rotate it
25:31without hitting her number 13 in the
25:33head
25:36he took this yeah go ahead but
25:40we took this job because there was
25:42supposed to be no heavy lifting yeah
26:08i'm not sure how good it is for the
26:10juror who's below it
26:12i think that's right that's why let's do
26:15this
26:16let's just push it yeah i think you need
26:18to turn it more don't worry
26:21yeah i don't want people hitting their
26:22heads
26:37that's going into my joke file how many
26:39lawyers does it take
26:41i already said that one did you yes i
26:43did you're funny
26:48it was actually how many district
26:50attorneys
26:57i don't know let me check with the
26:59jurors is that
27:01is that okay for you is that
27:04that okay for the jury's not under it is
27:07that okay
27:07yeah for now
27:11okay
27:14you want what i don't have okay
27:19yes yes i have a
27:22dvd of the videotape stipulated
27:26conditional exam we're about to play my
27:27mark this is people's 176.
27:32and the transcript is 176 a your honor
27:37okay yes
27:41and then we will play the video
28:01you want to apologize i don't know if i
28:04did but the stipulation is 175.
28:07you got that yes i did okay
28:20call robert
28:32[Music]
28:42[Music]
28:55[Music]
29:00last name my name is robert curtis
29:03r-b-e-r-t
29:04c-u-r-g-i-s
29:09everyday amen good morning good morning
29:12what is your current occupation when you
29:14retire her
29:16calling you to retire i've been retired
29:18since april of 2009.
29:20and from what career from the i retired
29:23from the very latest police department
29:34um you're doing this foreign
29:42thank you so were you a smart peace
29:46officer
29:47yes and for how many years were you a
29:49sworn peace officer
29:50for almost 38 years
29:57[Music]
30:03yes in 1972 and started as a
30:07reserve patrol deputy sheriff in 1977 i
30:10went to beverly hills police department
30:12i worked patrol traffic detectives
30:16and when i retired i was the assistant
30:17chief of police
30:19after i retired i went to the city of
30:21belle gardens
30:22for almost a year as the chief of waves
30:25interim chief place
30:26okay i want to make it clear with belle
30:28gardens and what not to help
30:31the city of val delano yes thank you
30:34okay
30:45what does that mean what what's that
30:47decision
30:48well you have um and then and everybody
30:51else is wrong to the
30:52media inside the department there are
30:53three captains assistant chief of police
30:56and the chief of police
30:57and i supervise the captains and when
31:00the chief was not there i also acted as
31:02acting chief
31:08at the time it was between 130 and 140
31:11officers
31:12okay and then you said you actually
31:14became for some period of time the chief
31:16of belgar
31:17yes i did what was the size of that
31:19about 65 spawn
31:21okay you were the head of that agency
31:23yes
31:26what were your duties
31:29in
31:36and i'm trying to remember what division
31:38i was in i think i was in the field of
31:39operations
31:41okay and you were capping the field
31:43operations division
31:44at beverly hills police department yes
31:49for how many years as of then and you
31:50held that position on the cap
31:52i was promoted to captain in 1990
31:55okay so approximately 10 years at that
31:57time
31:58can you briefly describe to the court
32:01what your duties were as happened in
32:03december of 2000 yes um at that time i
32:08i oversaw the patrol division the
32:10traffic division and our tactical
32:12division and when other cabinets were
32:14off then i would assume some of their
32:16responsibilities depending on
32:18what may have arisen while they were off
32:20okay and
32:24how many captains were generally on duty
32:25at one time
32:27if we were all there it was three at
32:30least probably two
32:32okay and if something out of the
32:34ordinary would occur
32:36within that police department during
32:38that period of time
32:40how confident are you if you aren't all
32:42that we've been brought to the attention
32:43of one yeah
32:44it would have been brought to the
32:45attention of a captain i would
32:48insist on that are you familiar with a
32:51woman by the name of ria
32:52r-i-a ionitis
32:58[Music]
33:01in the police department uh functionally
33:04served
33:05as sort of a secretary of the captain
33:07what were some of her
33:09duties um sorry
33:12when you said function with captain
33:14would she want to be your secretary yes
33:16what were some of her duties work in the
33:19administrative offices they would answer
33:21telephones they would receive mail
33:24unless it was confidential they would
33:25open mail
33:27other duties tests assigned in the
33:28office
33:31type things for us
33:35would she clap down to the very best
33:39[Music]
33:41yes if there was a letter that came in
33:46it was addressed to the beverly hills
33:47police department
33:49and it was received
33:58she would have been one of the people
33:59yes and she received
34:02a piece of mail that was out of the
34:04ordinary based on her
34:06job and initiation
34:11depending on what was in the letter she
34:12probably would have shown to one of the
34:14cabinets
34:14which would be her one of her losses and
34:17that day
34:18she opened this letter and brought it to
34:20me
34:21so i'm going to take you to december
34:2327th
34:25of the year 2000. did
34:28miss eodinus bring you
34:32an envelope in a letter yes she did and
34:35did she show it to you yes it was
34:39i remember because it was unusual i saw
34:41a lot of letters but this was very
34:42unusual it was
34:43addressed only to the police department
34:45no address
34:46and the content inside was quite short
34:49and
34:50very unusual okay uh do you recall what
34:53the address was on the outside
34:55it said maryland's police department i
34:57don't think it had
34:58any numbers for our address at all can
35:01you remember
35:02anything distinctive about any of the
35:03spelling yes i do
35:05uh beverly hills was misspelled it's
35:08not usually spelled e-r-l-y
35:12but on this particular letter it was
35:14spelled
35:15l e y okay other than uh
35:21those words beverly hills please were
35:23there any other
35:24written words on the outlet that you
35:27recall
35:28not very calm
35:32and the letter itself
35:35what do you call it it's quite short it
35:38had
35:38an address on benefit canyon and it had
35:41the word
35:42cadaver i i got my attention because the
35:45address on benedict canyon
35:47was in the beverly hills post office
35:49area but it was not in the beverly hills
35:51city so we could not have jurisdiction
35:54there
35:55but that's what caught my eye this was
35:58not
35:58our incident okay um were there other
36:02times
36:03while you were employed in law
36:04enforcement then you'd receive
36:06any letters that had the word cadavero
36:15do you have a distinct memory of seeing
36:17this letter on december 27th the year
36:192000 yes i do
36:22what did you uh do with the letter
36:27uh the detective division and uh
36:29detective craig stevens
36:30responded to the office and we gave him
36:33the letter
36:34and did you invite us now
36:38who if anyone he should contact to
36:40provide that letter
36:42yes you know first of all i was very
36:43careful i didn't touch the letter so in
36:45case there was any
36:46evidence or fingerprints on it i didn't
36:48want mine on there
36:50and we discussed it and advised him that
36:53he should contact
36:55his supervisors of the los angeles
36:57police department
36:58and why that he was directed for the los
37:00angeles experiment because the address
37:0215 15 27 i think it was was
37:05in the city of los angeles jurisdiction
37:08okay
37:09and is detective stevens currently alive
37:12no uh detective stevens is deceased
37:16i'm going to show you what the previous
37:17has been marked as
37:19people's 24 in these proceedings
37:25do you recognize that download yes i do
37:27how you organize it
37:29uh by the way it's spelled and the test
37:32that we're remembering the hills
37:35all right police has this the envelope
37:36that was shown to you on
37:39december 27th yes it appears to be
37:45and i'm showing you with previously
37:46marketing proceedings 25.
37:50you recognize that note yes i do is that
37:53the note
37:54that was shown to you by vistio dinas on
37:56december 27th
37:57the years ago yes it was when she showed
38:00you this
38:01down below people's 24 as a letter
38:0525 were they all connected to each other
38:08physically
38:08i'm trying to remember i know i didn't
38:10touch it i believe it might have been
38:11paper clip to the envelope
38:13so you could hold the handle
38:17i have a photograph of a
38:20note and it's in color 53
38:26yep okay
38:41yes is this a color copy
38:44of the letter that was shown to you by
38:47visiting us on
38:48december 27th i don't see the color but
38:52it's
38:52the copy of the letter yes oh i'm sorry
38:56i gotta get you some color i'll go over
38:57there i didn't see
39:02is this a fair and accurate copy of the
39:05letter you saw on
39:06december 27 yes
39:10i guess i should just ask you for the
39:11record equals 20 or is that a fair and
39:14actual copy of the outside of you
39:19[Music]
39:26yes
39:37[Music]
39:55i can't speculate on their their motive
39:58but
39:59certainly to send a letter like that and
40:01say that
40:02we're at a certain location would
40:04indicate they weren't hiding it
40:06but i can't speak what's in the mind of
40:08the person
40:18no thank you
40:34you and i have a
40:38exhibit sheet that correlates the
40:39exhibits from the video to the exhibits
40:42at this trial my mark this is people's
40:45176b
40:50the exhibits referenced in the video as
40:53people's 24
40:54in this trial has been marked previously
40:56as people's 130.
41:00the exhibit referenced in the video as
41:02people's 25
41:04is also contained on what has been
41:06marked in this trial is people's 130.
41:10the exhibit referenced in the video as
41:12people's 53
41:15is currently in this trial peoples 131
41:18a
41:22okay thank you
41:25and i need that transcript can we get an
41:28additional
41:28oh yes i'm sorry
41:42what's next mr balian thank you robert i
41:44have a
41:47stipulation of previous stipulation 10
41:50man mark this is people's 177.
41:53yes
41:56on december 29 of the year 2000
42:01los angeles police department detective
42:03brad roberts
42:05received people's exhibits 129 the
42:08letter
42:09and 128 the envelope from detective
42:12craig stevens of the beverly hills
42:14police department
42:16detective roberts booked these items
42:18into evidence at the lapd
42:20under dr number 00-0825485
42:25as evidence item numbers 21 and 22.
42:29the post mark on exhibit 128
42:32the envelope was as follows
42:36marina del rey
42:39ca 90268
42:43p.m 23
42:47december 2000
42:51so stipulated stipulated i have
42:59stipulation memphis is people's 178 your
43:01honor
43:02yes
43:06in the year 2000 all mail that was
43:09deposited
43:10into a u.s mail receptacle on the west
43:13side of los angeles
43:15including the areas of beverly hills
43:18pacific palisades
43:20palace verdes inglewood
43:24santa monica compton and torrance
43:28would have been processed at the united
43:30states postal service
43:32usps marina del rey
43:35sorting office sorting facility
43:40susan berman's home 1527 benedict canyon
43:46was included in this area the postmark
43:50contained on people's 128
43:53a establishes that the envelope was
43:56processed
43:57at the usps marina del rey sorting
43:59facility
44:01between 3 pm and 11 59 pm
44:05on december 23rd 2000
44:09and was therefore deposited into a usps
44:13receptacle
44:15in the west side of los angeles on or
44:18before
44:19december 23 of the year 2000.
44:23so stipulated stipulated
44:27situation thank you
44:33have another stipulation your honor yes
44:36i think he clarified but just to make
44:38sure that was stipulation number 11.
44:45and this stipulation i'm about to read
44:47is stipulation 44.
44:54your honor before i do that i have a
44:58plastic bag and inside this plastic bag
45:00is an evidence tag as well as a piece of
45:02paper
45:03may i mark this plastic
45:07evidence bag and its contents as
45:09people's
45:10179 yeah
45:13replace people's 179 on the alma
45:19you're right
45:33i have a stipulation of my mark this is
45:34people's 180.
45:38this is previous stipulation 44.
45:42all right canceled you stipulate as
45:45follows
45:47defendant robert durst wrote
45:50the documents marked for identification
45:54as people's exhibits 128
45:57and 129. commonly referred to as the
46:01cadaver note
46:02and cadaver envelope
46:05the parties further stipulate that
46:07defendant wrote portions of the document
46:10marked for identification as people's
46:12exhibit 179.
46:14commonly referred to as the dig note
46:18with respect to the dig note defendant
46:21wrote the portions of the document
46:23which are hand written the hand printed
46:26portions
46:27which appear in the margins to the right
46:29of the handwritten list
46:31were written by tom hughes after mr
46:34hughes found the document
46:35in the bedroom trash can of defendant
46:39south salem home
46:41tom hughes also circled the world the
46:43word dig
46:45after he found the document so
46:47stipulated council stipulated
46:50accepts stipulation
46:55thank you runner that will take care of
46:57the stipulations i'm going to place
46:58people's 179 back in this envelope
47:00plastic sheathing
47:14next people call douglas durst your
47:22honor
47:36uh
47:50so
48:46shall be the truth the whole truth and
48:48nothing but the truth to help you god
48:50yes they do thank you
48:57for the records please state and spell
48:59your first and last name please d-o-u-g
49:04l-a-s-u-r-s-t thank you
49:07stay tuned douglas durst
49:10you speak into that microphone uh very
49:12rare
49:14master after
49:20okay okay good
49:24you may proceed thank you mr durst how
49:27do you feel about
49:28being in court today i'm not
49:30particularly happy about it other places
49:32i'd much rather be
49:34and when you say you're not particularly
49:36happy about it can you explain what you
49:37mean by that
49:39uh well i'm here at my brother's trial
49:43and it's not a pleasant experience uh to
49:46be
49:48at this trial of somebody i've known for
49:51uh 76 years now and
49:56it's very difficult from many points of
49:59view
50:00is it fair to say that over the years
50:02you've had
50:04many issues with your brother
50:07that's very fair to say my brother and i
50:11fought
50:11as children and uh
50:14he never got along and
50:18uh that's uh narrative not responsive
50:22i'm gonna go into more detail in a
50:25moment mr durst
50:26what i'm basically asking you is despite
50:28the issues that you've had
50:30with your brother is it still difficult
50:33to be up there
50:33testifying against him in a murder trial
50:37yes it's very difficult somebody that as
50:40i said that i've known
50:4276 years and
50:45[Music]
50:48my older brother being here is not
50:52anything that's pleasant from any point
50:54of view so i'm going to ask you to
50:56listen carefully to the question and
50:58answer only the questions yes sir
51:01and let me ask you mr durst are you here
51:04today
51:06voluntarily because this is what you
51:07want to do or were you told that if you
51:09did not come
51:10you would be subpoenaed i'm not here
51:13voluntarily
51:14and i was subpoenaed to come here
51:18yes that being said once you were
51:22told that you were going to be
51:23subpoenaed
51:25have you cooperated fully in terms of
51:27being interviewed and agreeing to come
51:29out
51:29to court without a formal subpoena yes i
51:33cooperated once i was told that i would
51:36be subpoenaed
51:37and cooperated without being subpoenaed
51:40so
51:40i'm going to ask you a number of
51:42questions today if there's anything you
51:43do not understand
51:45please let the court know i'm going to
51:48start with
51:49do you recognize this person here
51:54my brother bob yes indicating the
51:56defendant your honor
51:57yeah and can you tell me how do you
52:01generally refer
52:02to your brother good bob
52:05and what is the age difference between
52:07you and bob approximately a year and a
52:08half
52:09and who is older bob is older and if you
52:13can
52:13can you tell me how many other siblings
52:15do you have and
52:16what are the age breakdowns i have a
52:19sister who's three years younger
52:21and a brother who was five years younger
52:24[Music]
52:25and so in essence there are four kids in
52:28roughly
52:29seven years that's correct
52:32with bob being the oldest is that right
52:34that is right yes
52:36and mr durst what do you do for a living
52:39i work in real estate in the family
52:41business
52:42and that family business that's called
52:44the durst organization is that correct
52:45that is correct yes
52:46and can you explain when was that
52:48business originally found
52:50the business was uh
52:541915 was when it started
52:57and can you tell me is it a publicly
52:59owned business
53:01no it's all owned by family and when you
53:04say
53:04that it was started who started it
53:08my grandfather joseph durst bought his
53:11first building in 1915.
53:13and joseph durst was he somebody who was
53:16raised with a degree of wealth no he was
53:20raised in a very poor village in
53:23eastern europe and when did he come to
53:26the united states
53:28uh i think
53:31around 1898 just before the turn of the
53:33century
53:35and did joseph have any children
53:38joseph had five children and was one of
53:41those
53:41children seymour durst your father yes
53:44seymour was the uh
53:47the durst organization that your
53:49grandfather founded
53:51more than a hundred years ago has it
53:53grown it's grown dramatically yes
53:56and how large is it today
54:00uh we in uh
54:04new york we own 13 million square feet
54:06of class a
54:07offices 2500 apartments
54:10and various uh developments in new york
54:14and
54:15developments under progress in new york
54:18and in philadelphia
54:20is it fair to say that with respect to
54:24new york particularly manhattan that the
54:26durst organization is
54:28one of the principal owners of
54:30commercial real estate in manhattan
54:32yes that is fair to say can i ask you in
54:35terms of the jurist organization
54:38itself are there other entities within
54:41the tourist organization
54:43there are dozens of entities within the
54:47organization
54:48and when i say vandoorne realty or
54:52eastern pork are those names that you
54:54recognize
54:55yes i recognize those names and can you
54:58tell me what those names represent
55:01vandoorne realty was the company that my
55:04father and uncles founded in the 50s
55:07when
55:07they began developing office buildings
55:12and it was named for
55:15where my uncle went to army camp
55:20and and what about eastern fork eastern
55:23port was a company that
55:25my father started to hide the identity
55:28of the purchaser of
55:31property that he was assembling because
55:33he felt no one would suspect
55:36him of being jewish with owning a
55:39fort product company in the when your
55:42father and grandfather
55:43were building the company did they face
55:46anti-semitism
55:47in in new york yes that's why they named
55:51the management company vandoorne realty
55:55so they would not be associated with a
55:57jewish
55:58family so the idea that vandoorne
56:00doesn't sound very jewish in
56:02eastern port jews keep kosher the
56:05eastern port name would kind of hide the
56:07idea that it was
56:08a jewish family that was behind it yes
56:10that is correct
56:14in terms of vandoorne realty was that
56:17you and your brother bob's employer
56:21in the late 70s and early 80s yes that
56:24was our employer
56:25and can you tell me what were your
56:27responsibilities there
56:31my responsibilities varied as time went
56:33on
56:35very beginning i was responsible for
56:40and stayed responsible for the
56:41properties that were bought
56:43to be developed it was called brick
56:45management
56:47and when we were built when we were
56:49assembling sites
56:51we had buildings that had to be kept
56:53going until they were to be demolished
56:56so it was a difficult job later i
56:59became more responsible for
57:02collecting arrears and negotiating
57:04leases
57:07do you remember when did you first start
57:08working for
57:10the durst organization or one of its
57:12subsidiaries
57:13it started in the summer of uh 1966.
57:19and briefly what is your educational
57:21background
57:24i graduated from the university of
57:27california at berkeley
57:29in 66 and
57:34went to nyu in 1967 for
57:39two years and then went full time to the
57:42organization that was working
57:44part-time while i was going to nyu and
57:47what did you study at nyu
57:49i was at the school of public
57:50administration in
57:53urban economics
57:56and can you tell me what were your
57:58brother bob's responsibilities
58:00at vandoorne realty in the late 70s and
58:02early 80s
58:04uh he shared many of the same
58:08responsibilities that i did and he also
58:11negotiated leases it was
58:15sometimes a dispute as to who was going
58:17to be responsible
58:19but we were not very involved in the
58:22main
58:23main business until later in the 80s
58:28and historically um
58:31has the the durst for lack of a better
58:33term the durham's family
58:34fortune has that historically been tied
58:37up in family trusts
58:40yes it's now completely tied up in
58:43family trust
58:45and the durst organization still
58:48today is a privately held
58:51family corporation is that correct that
58:54is correct
58:55so meaning that you can't buy stock in
58:57it it's not public
58:59that's correct and can you tell me
59:02um the durst family trust
59:05just very briefly is it fair to say that
59:07those family trusts
59:09still control the ownership
59:12and the running of the jurist
59:14organization itself
59:16they control all the ownership
59:19indirectly they control the
59:20running of the company does your brother
59:24bob
59:24currently have any ownership interest in
59:27any of these family trusts
59:28he does not and was he bought out at his
59:32request
59:34yes he was brought out of his request
59:36and approximately when was this
59:38that was 2006. and without getting
59:42going into all the financial details did
59:44this buyout
59:45amount to tens of millions of dollars
59:47yes it did amount to that
59:50has there always been an individual
59:54who is a family member
59:58who is a trustee who is in essence
1:00:02running the family trusts
1:00:06there there are two family members
1:00:09and theoretically they run the family
1:00:12trust but
1:00:12typically one of them is preeminent
1:00:16and so just so it's clear i'm going to
1:00:18call that person in the in the way that
1:00:20we're discussing this i'm going to call
1:00:21them the preeminent trustee
1:00:23just so you understand what i'm saying
1:00:25who was the
1:00:26preeminent trustee of your father's
1:00:29generation
1:00:30my father was and how many brothers and
1:00:34sisters were in that second generation
1:00:36did your father have
1:00:37he had four brothers and one sister
1:00:42and were other members of that second
1:00:44generation were they also involved
1:00:46in the jurist organization uh
1:00:50three of them were two of them were
1:00:53active members of the company
1:00:56and
1:00:59yeah and my aunt
1:01:02my father's sister was an owner but did
1:01:05not participate in the
1:01:07running of the company and the two
1:01:09active people would that have been your
1:01:10uncle roy
1:01:11royal and your father seymour well i'm
1:01:14sorry there were three actors
1:01:16in addition to my father my uncle roy
1:01:18and my uncle david
1:01:20were active in the business and was one
1:01:22of those three
1:01:24the and here i said what i was going to
1:01:28call it
1:01:29and i forgot the name that i what are
1:01:31you yeah
1:01:32thanks dave who was the preeminent
1:01:34trustee of that generation
1:01:36my father was and is there only
1:01:39one of these preeminent trustees at a
1:01:42time
1:01:44yes who is the preeminent trustee today
1:01:47i am and when did you become the
1:01:51preeminent trustee yeah at my father's
1:01:54death
1:01:55in 1995. and were you aware
1:01:59originally was there a succession plan
1:02:04in terms of who originally was supposed
1:02:06to assume
1:02:07that preeminent trustee position the
1:02:10trust
1:02:11trusts were created in 1962 and
1:02:15at that point the uh oldest
1:02:18member of the existing trust
1:02:21trustee's family was appointed as the
1:02:24successor trustee and was the plan that
1:02:27your brother bob
1:02:29was going to take over as the preeminent
1:02:30trustee yes as the oldest member of the
1:02:33family yes i'm going to get to this
1:02:35later but that did not end up happening
1:02:37is that correct that is correct
1:02:39now i want to talk about you and your
1:02:41brother for a moment
1:02:42um did the two of you ever have a good
1:02:46relationship
1:02:48uh we had a
1:02:51relationship where we could talk to each
1:02:53other
1:02:55but it was always very wary and
1:02:59strained growing up um how did your
1:03:02brother treat you
1:03:04he treated me miserably he would fight
1:03:06with me every chance he would embarrass
1:03:08me at
1:03:09every opportunity and it was a
1:03:13very difficult relationship and were you
1:03:16able to observe
1:03:17how your brother treated uh your younger
1:03:20brother tom
1:03:21and your sister wendy uh he treated them
1:03:24equally bad
1:03:26or he's attacking them or holding them
1:03:29up to ridicule
1:03:31growing up was it a common situation for
1:03:33you to cry in front of your brother
1:03:35yes and what would his response be he
1:03:38thought it was funny
1:03:39[Music]
1:03:41what is your current relationship with
1:03:42your brother
1:03:44uh i don't have a current relationship
1:03:47and when is the last time the two of you
1:03:49had any contact at all
1:03:52the last time i saw it was in 2001
1:03:57at my nephew's
1:04:00wedding and that was a wedding that took
1:04:02place in texas
1:04:04uh just before you would find out later
1:04:06morris black ended up
1:04:07being killed is that correct that is
1:04:09correct and in terms of
1:04:11you having contact with with your
1:04:13brother
1:04:14uh was that the two of you sitting down
1:04:16and talking or was that simply the two
1:04:18of you being
1:04:19at the same event two of us being at the
1:04:21same event
1:04:22when is the last time we actually had
1:04:24any contact where the two of you spoke
1:04:27i think in 1999
1:04:31are you aware if your brother was ever
1:04:34close to any of your other siblings
1:04:37he was never close my sister tried to
1:04:40have a relationship with him
1:04:44and are you aware of specifically
1:04:48when it was that
1:04:52you and your brother ended up
1:04:55in essence ceasing any contact when he
1:04:58kind of lost contact with the family was
1:04:59there a timing and incident
1:05:02it was in 1994
1:05:06when i became president of the first
1:05:09organization
1:05:12and by the way when you became president
1:05:13of the durst organization
1:05:15um was that a
1:05:18significant event within the
1:05:22area the field of kind of new york real
1:05:24estate well absolutely
1:05:26it was seymour had been there for
1:05:31so many years and for somebody new
1:05:35fairly young to be stepping up was quite
1:05:37an event
1:05:38and was that publicized within the media
1:05:40in new york at the time yes it was
1:05:42publicized
1:05:43i want you to assume that an individual
1:05:46is
1:05:46active in new york real estate in the
1:05:49mid 90s
1:05:51if they were active in new york real
1:05:52estate would
1:05:54your ascension to that position have
1:05:57been something that
1:05:59they would have read about in the real
1:06:01estate trade papers
1:06:03yes anybody in real estate would have
1:06:04known about it
1:06:06i want to specifically ask you do you
1:06:07know who doug oliver is i do
1:06:09who is doug oliver doug oliver was a
1:06:13friend of bob's and
1:06:16he was he owned uh some property along
1:06:20with his
1:06:21in-laws which which boarded on property
1:06:25we owned
1:06:27is it fair to say that mr oliver's
1:06:29property interests
1:06:30were not of the same
1:06:34magnitude as the durst family
1:06:37it's very fair to say that they were
1:06:39nowhere near the same magnitude as the
1:06:41durst family
1:06:42and did you yourself um and your family
1:06:45the durst organization
1:06:46have dealings with mr oliver with
1:06:49respect to real estate
1:06:51at one point we had discussion his
1:06:54his father-in-law was a man named hanson
1:06:57who
1:06:57was funding uh doug's investment
1:07:01and we dealt with uh them very briefly
1:07:04in the proposed building that never
1:07:06happened
1:07:07and based on the relationship you had
1:07:10with mr oliver was mr oliver aware
1:07:13that you had ascended and were running
1:07:16the durst organization
1:07:18i would have to believe he did that i
1:07:20had no
1:07:21specific knowledge i want to ask you for
1:07:25a moment historically if i were to
1:07:27describe
1:07:28how is your brother with money in terms
1:07:30of his level of generosity
1:07:33he's not a very generous person very
1:07:36tight with money
1:07:37and spends as little as possible
1:07:41and what leads you to that
1:07:45uh conclusion regarding how your brother
1:07:47is with money is that based on your
1:07:48first-hand knowledge
1:07:50based on my first-hand knowledge of
1:07:53how cheap he is and
1:07:56things that he's done in my knowledge to
1:08:00try and
1:08:02save money what in particular are those
1:08:04things i only want to talk about things
1:08:06that you are personally aware of that he
1:08:07has done i am
1:08:08personally aware that he had a
1:08:11volkswagen
1:08:12car that he was selling objection
1:08:15relevancy
1:08:17remote rule
1:08:22services
1:08:30uh anyway he was selling a car
1:08:34and he spent an enormous amount of time
1:08:36with a drill
1:08:38backing up the odometer on the car
1:08:41to get a better price out of it and when
1:08:44was this
1:08:45this must have been in this 1970s and
1:08:48did your brother as well as yourself
1:08:52did you have large trust funds
1:08:56we had we had trust we received an
1:08:59income uh from it and i i don't want to
1:09:03get into the exact number but
1:09:04is it fair to say that you received a
1:09:06sizable income and your brother from the
1:09:08trust
1:09:08yes based on your knowledge of a brother
1:09:12at that point
1:09:13did the actual price of what he was
1:09:16going to sell the volkswagen would that
1:09:17have made a
1:09:18made any difference it's leading and
1:09:21remote
1:09:22and not relevant
1:09:25okay something that happened in the 70s
1:09:28okay so um overall but i think you've
1:09:32exhausted the topic thank you ron
1:09:35um were you ever aware
1:09:38of your brother giving large sums of
1:09:41money to his friends
1:09:43i was never aware of places of knowledge
1:09:46overall
1:09:49no i was never aware of him giving
1:09:51anybody money
1:09:53given your experience with your brother
1:09:55would it be consistent with
1:09:57the bob durst you know to give large
1:10:00sums of money to friends without an
1:10:02ulterior motive
1:10:03conclusion conclusion is not the
1:10:07objection but it's
1:10:08speculative doesn't he have to get the
1:10:11objection your honor or no
1:10:12no no no no i'm going to sustain it
1:10:16a witness may often offer a conclusion
1:10:19that's not
1:10:20self-objectionable it's reaching it
1:10:22through speculation which is the problem
1:10:24and that's a problem i see with that
1:10:25question
1:10:26so you may continue thank you
1:10:30who was seymour durst she writers
1:10:34was my father and
1:10:37what kind of father was seymour durst
1:10:40excuse me he was a wonderful father
1:10:42if i were to ask you was he in general a
1:10:46strict parent
1:10:48uh he wasn't
1:10:52he had a strict moral code but he was
1:10:55not
1:10:56strict with us in the sense that
1:10:59we were punished or uh were
1:11:04punished i would say in particular
1:11:08based on your observations was he strict
1:11:10with your brother bob
1:11:12no not at all um is it fair to say that
1:11:17he was the opposite of strict with bob
1:11:19very very
1:11:20opposite leading the question is being
1:11:22asked in leading ways so that
1:11:24i get a yes or no and not specific
1:11:26incidents yeah i'll allow it
1:11:30i'm sorry i'm allowing the answer
1:11:34you're right did the court we were
1:11:35talking to you i'm not sure if they got
1:11:36the answer
1:11:37can the witness answer the question
1:11:41you asked if it was the opposite he said
1:11:43that's very fair to say
1:11:44and that will stand thank you have you
1:11:46ever seen the movie all good things
1:11:49i've seen parts of it in the parts that
1:11:51you've seen
1:11:52or in uh the script
1:11:55if you reviewed it was that an accurate
1:11:58portrayal of your father
1:12:00completely inaccurate betrayal and what
1:12:03was
1:12:03inaccurate about the way your father was
1:12:05betrayed well he was
1:12:07portrayed as being very strict very
1:12:10overbearing and demanding and anybody
1:12:13who knew my father knew that that's not
1:12:15what he was
1:12:17in the movie would you agree that
1:12:23the inference was that seymour durst
1:12:27forced your brother bob against his will
1:12:30to come work for the durst organization
1:12:32that was the inference and it's
1:12:34completely untrue
1:12:36and when you say is that that it's
1:12:38untrue is that because
1:12:39you're speculating and you have
1:12:41first-hand knowledge
1:12:44uh i never my father never
1:12:48asked any of us to do something that we
1:12:50did not want to do
1:12:53tell me for a moment about your mother
1:12:57my mother died when i was five so i have
1:12:59very little
1:13:00uh accurate recollections of her
1:13:04can you tell me uh when she died in
1:13:06terms of the year
1:13:081950. and can you tell me how it was
1:13:11that she died
1:13:12she fell away that's just like knowledge
1:13:14i'm sorry
1:13:15he said he's five years old when it
1:13:17happened it's basis of knowledge
1:13:19karol
1:13:22she fell from the roof of our house and
1:13:25where were you living at that time
1:13:27in scarsdown new york and
1:13:31are you aware that your brother bob
1:13:34has claimed that your father had him
1:13:37view your mom
1:13:38falling or jumping from the roof are you
1:13:40aware of that allegation i am aware of
1:13:42that
1:13:43it and do you know
1:13:48did you say something incorrect it's
1:13:50hearsay well incorrect
1:13:51okay that's overruled but let's see
1:13:58okay overall
1:14:02you can answer the question do you want
1:14:04me to repeat it please
1:14:06you are aware that your brother bob has
1:14:08claimed
1:14:09that your dad had him view your mom
1:14:12falling slash jumping from the roof are
1:14:14you aware of that
1:14:14allegation from your brother i am aware
1:14:16of that allegation and do you know
1:14:18do you have firsthand knowledge of
1:14:20whether that allegation is true
1:14:22i i know it's not true because when my
1:14:27mother was in distress we were brought
1:14:29over to
1:14:31my uh uncle's house nearby and can you
1:14:34tell me you are aware of
1:14:36the way your brother has described
1:14:38having seen this
1:14:39fall or jump is that correct yes that's
1:14:42correct and
1:14:43given the way the house was laid out and
1:14:45where your brother says he was
1:14:47is that an accurate depiction of what
1:14:49happened no there's there's no way from
1:14:51inside the house you could see
1:14:53where my mother fell from and is that
1:14:56something you have personal knowledge of
1:14:58from having lived in this house
1:14:59yes it is and how long did you live in
1:15:02that house
1:15:03uh for well until i was about
1:15:0716 or 17.
1:15:11i want to go now to uh kathy durst is
1:15:14that someone that you ever met
1:15:16yes i did meet kathy durst and do you
1:15:18remember
1:15:19how it was that the two of you met
1:15:23at some point bob introduced us i don't
1:15:25remember the exact point
1:15:27and if i were to ask you to describe
1:15:28kathy how would you describe her
1:15:31she was a lovely person and what was
1:15:34your relationship like with her
1:15:36we were uh she was my sister-in-law we
1:15:40had a very good relationship
1:15:42in in terms of your family would you
1:15:44describe
1:15:45kathy's involvement kind of um
1:15:49connection to your family as your family
1:15:52was
1:15:53happy that bob had married her or were
1:15:56they upset
1:15:57what was kind of the family response to
1:15:58me kelly was was very happy
1:16:00and very accepting of kathy
1:16:05how did you learn that bob and kathy had
1:16:08married
1:16:09uh i don't recall the
1:16:13exact circumstances but i i learned
1:16:16i believe i learned afterwards that i
1:16:18got married excuse me i'm
1:16:20on bob's 30th birthday did you attend
1:16:23that wedding
1:16:24no did you have any knowledge in advance
1:16:26it was going to take place no
1:16:28and is it fair to say by that point in
1:16:30your lives the relationship between you
1:16:31and bob
1:16:32was not a friendly one that's correct
1:16:35yes
1:16:37notwithstanding the status of your
1:16:39relationship did you
1:16:41and your wife ever live with bob and
1:16:43kathy yeah we shared a house that my
1:16:46father owned
1:16:48in ketone in new york for a couple of
1:16:51years
1:16:51and can you describe ketone in new york
1:16:54where is that in reference to south
1:16:57salem new york
1:16:59it's a that's
1:17:03under 10 miles south of it
1:17:08and it's katona also in westchester
1:17:10county yes it is
1:17:12and you mentioned that your father owned
1:17:15a home
1:17:16in katona is that a home that
1:17:19eventually you ended up taking over
1:17:22yes it is and the period of time
1:17:26where you lived with bob and kathy and
1:17:28your wife when was that
1:17:31that was about
1:17:351970 through 1973 except
1:17:38in 1973. and you are married is that
1:17:41correct
1:17:42i am married and is the woman you're
1:17:44married to is that the same woman that
1:17:46you were living with
1:17:47with bob and kathy yes it is and the two
1:17:50of you have children is that right that
1:17:52is correct
1:17:53at the time that you were living with
1:17:54bob and kathy was that before or
1:17:56after you had children that was after i
1:17:59had children
1:18:00so were the children living with you as
1:18:03well yes
1:18:04and can you recall um
1:18:07did you have interaction with kathy
1:18:09while the two of you lived together
1:18:10during that time
1:18:12well yes we shared the house we shared
1:18:14the kitchen
1:18:16and we had interactions all the time
1:18:20and if i were to ask you your feelings
1:18:23about
1:18:23kathy during the period of time when you
1:18:26live with her
1:18:27what would you say relevancy
1:18:33did you have a good relationship with
1:18:35kathy during the period of time when she
1:18:37lived with you
1:18:38yes i had a good relationship
1:18:41during that time period did you ever
1:18:43observe um
1:18:46strike that how would you describe bob
1:18:48and kathy's relationship
1:18:49at the time that they were living with
1:18:52you in the catona house uh
1:18:54at that time they had a very good
1:18:55relationship
1:18:57did you ever see any
1:19:00violence at that time no i never saw any
1:19:02violence when we were living
1:19:05did you ever observe any uh emotional
1:19:08abuse in your presence
1:19:09no i never saw it saw any emotional
1:19:12abuse
1:19:13at that time at the time that you lived
1:19:15with them did kathy ever express to you
1:19:17that she was ever afraid of bob
1:19:19no she never did do you remember
1:19:22the approximate time period when bob and
1:19:24kathy
1:19:25bought the lakeside cottage on hoyt
1:19:27street in south salem
1:19:29i do 1974.
1:19:32and they eventually end up moving
1:19:36into that home as well as the riverside
1:19:39drive and
1:19:40east 86th street properties in new york
1:19:42city is that right that's correct
1:19:44did you ever visit uh
1:19:47kathy at the south salem cottage
1:19:50yes we visited several times
1:19:54and was that a situation where you
1:19:57had uh a visit with bob and kathy what
1:20:00were the circumstances of you seeing
1:20:02kathy at the south salem house i don't
1:20:05recall the exact circumstances but we
1:20:07made
1:20:07it wasn't maybe three at the most visits
1:20:12to that house did you have interactions
1:20:14at that time with your brother
1:20:17yes and were the two of you at least
1:20:20able to um be in the same room at that
1:20:23time
1:20:25yes we we
1:20:28were civil to each other at that time
1:20:31do you remember specifically kathy
1:20:34starting medical school
1:20:36i remember her specifically starting
1:20:39nursing school and then medical school
1:20:41yes by the way there has been an
1:20:43allegation
1:20:45that kathy durst was
1:20:49admitted to medical school because of
1:20:51your family connections
1:20:53do you have any knowledge of any family
1:20:56connections and any
1:20:58influence that was utilized to get her
1:21:00into albert einstein college of medicine
1:21:02i do know there was a connection to the
1:21:04school my grandfather was one of the
1:21:06founders of the school but i don't
1:21:08have any knowledge or never heard that
1:21:10that was
1:21:11used to get her into the school um
1:21:15can you tell me did you become aware
1:21:21once bob and kathy moved to the south
1:21:23salem house that their
1:21:25relationship deteriorated
1:21:28yes our visits became less frequent
1:21:31because
1:21:32it was very uncomfortable being together
1:21:35with the two of them in the house it was
1:21:37a lot of tension and this is something
1:21:40that you
1:21:41had seen firsthand yes although you saw
1:21:45attention did you ever observe bob to be
1:21:47violent with kathy no i never saw
1:21:49violence and misters i assume that as
1:21:52you sit here
1:21:53today you understand that your brother
1:21:57is on trial and you understand that the
1:22:00situation with kathy durst is a part of
1:22:01this case correct
1:22:03yes i understand that so do you also
1:22:05understand that obviously if you
1:22:07yourself had witnessed such violence
1:22:09that that could potentially be helpful
1:22:12to the people's case
1:22:13you understand that correct i do
1:22:15understand that so i just want to be
1:22:16clear the reason you are answering that
1:22:18you didn't observe any violence is not
1:22:20because you don't think it would be
1:22:22helpful
1:22:23it's because it's just not what happened
1:22:24correct that's correct
1:22:29i want to ask you when i say the name
1:22:32peter schwartz
1:22:34is that a name that you've heard of i've
1:22:36heard the name yes and
1:22:38are you aware of an assault that
1:22:40happened where your brother kicked him
1:22:41in the face
1:22:42for hearsay
1:22:46i am i had no personal knowledge except
1:22:50what i read in the papers did you ever
1:22:52discuss the incident
1:22:55it's foundational to the next question
1:22:56your honor okay so overall
1:22:59did you ever discuss the incident
1:23:01involving peter schwartz with your
1:23:03brother
1:23:04no i did not
1:23:08now in the following area
1:23:11one moment
1:23:26i want you to listen very carefully i'm
1:23:27going to ask you a yes or no question
1:23:30only so do you understand i do
1:23:34did kathy ever mention to you anything
1:23:37about
1:23:38bob stealing from the tourist
1:23:39organization
1:23:41objection you're wrong
1:23:44you know the court's already made a room
1:23:46oh yeah i you're uh
1:23:49if i can approach library runner i can
1:23:51no i'm going to overrule the objection
1:23:53i'm recalling the the limits of the uh
1:23:55inquiry
1:23:56so so you're only answering yes or no
1:23:58did kathy ever
1:24:00mention you anything about bob stealing
1:24:02from the durst organization yes
1:24:04when did this happen this happened in
1:24:10christmas 1980.
1:24:17i want to ask you um when i say the name
1:24:20prudence pharaoh
1:24:21is that somebody you are familiar with
1:24:23i'm familiar with the name
1:24:25and do you have any personal knowledge
1:24:27of the nature of
1:24:29she and bob's relationship well my only
1:24:32personal knowledge is that bob rented an
1:24:34apartment to her
1:24:36and when you say rented an apartment
1:24:38would that have been a durst
1:24:39organization apartment
1:24:40yes and are you aware was there anything
1:24:43unusual about the rental of that
1:24:46apartment
1:24:47it was unusual for bob to
1:24:51to rent apartments to friends of his yes
1:24:54and when you say
1:24:55rent was your understanding that that
1:24:57rental agreement was at a
1:24:59below market rate uh yes and
1:25:02in terms of other individuals that you
1:25:05knew bob to do this for
1:25:06is it fair to say that the only one
1:25:09you're aware of other than that
1:25:10is the apartment for kathy durst that is
1:25:13correct
1:25:13yes and that apartment for kathy came
1:25:16uh soon after she and bob met is that
1:25:18correct
1:25:20i believe so um
1:25:24i want to ask you i want to go to bob
1:25:27and kathy's relationship
1:25:28much nearer to the time of her
1:25:30disappearance what if anything did you
1:25:32know about the status of their marriage
1:25:35at that time so we're going now in the
1:25:37future near
1:25:39uh january of 1982. basis of knowledge
1:25:41hearsay
1:25:46okay kathy had told me that she was
1:25:48seeking a divorce
1:25:49from bob
1:25:50[Music]
1:25:53and do you recall um
1:25:56specifically when she told you that
1:25:59it was in the winter of 1980 i don't
1:26:03remember it was at the christmas party
1:26:04or not
1:26:08now your brother has repeatedly stated
1:26:11that your family
1:26:12particularly your father did not want
1:26:15bob and cathy to get a divorce
1:26:16do you know if that is a true statement
1:26:20uh i know
1:26:25my family has had a number of divorces
1:26:28in it
1:26:28so i had no reason to believe that that
1:26:30would be a true statement
1:26:32your brother has also mentioned that
1:26:33divorces were not acceptable in the
1:26:35family
1:26:36because of how they would affect family
1:26:38trust is that an accurate statement
1:26:40the divorce would not affect the family
1:26:42trust
1:26:44and my uncle was divorced through a
1:26:48sort of messy divorce so it's not a
1:26:52situation that nobody would have
1:26:55objected to it
1:26:56so i just wanted to make sure so you're
1:26:59saying that
1:27:01there have been divorces in your family
1:27:03of individuals
1:27:05who are members of the trust and that
1:27:07those divorces
1:27:08did not impact in any way
1:27:12the family trust going forward that is
1:27:14correct
1:27:16i want to talk about kathy's
1:27:17disappearance for a moment
1:27:19do you remember when kathy disappeared
1:27:23yes i do
1:27:31and can you tell me how did you find out
1:27:34uh bob called me to tell me that she was
1:27:37missing
1:27:38and at the time that he called you do
1:27:41you remember when this was
1:27:45it was uh the week of uh
1:27:49[Music]
1:27:50the first week of february and if it
1:27:53helps i want you to assume for a moment
1:27:55that february 1st was a monday
1:27:5819th do you recall when he called you
1:28:02um what was his demeanor
1:28:06uh it was
1:28:11his total it was very
1:28:14neutral and uh there was no great
1:28:19anxiety in it did that seem unusual to
1:28:23you at the time
1:28:25uh it seems a little strange yes
1:28:31do you have any knowledge of of what
1:28:33happened to
1:28:35kathy i have no knowledge no
1:28:38did you have anything to do with her
1:28:40disappearance absolutely not
1:28:42do you have any knowledge that your
1:28:44father had anything to do with her
1:28:45disappearance
1:28:46absolutely not did you have anything to
1:28:48do with
1:28:49covering up uh whatever mr durst might
1:28:52have done to her
1:28:54i find that a very insulting question
1:28:56but no i did not
1:28:57and are you aware if your father had any
1:28:59involvement in allegedly covering up
1:29:01i have no knowledge of it i also find
1:29:03that insulting
1:29:09at the time that you talked to your
1:29:11brother bob
1:29:13did he mention to you that they had been
1:29:16arguing the night
1:29:17that kathy disappeared he did not no
1:29:20and is that something you think you
1:29:21would remember absolutely
1:29:24did he mention to you that they had
1:29:26actually had a physical altercation
1:29:28prior to her alleged departure on the
1:29:30train that night no he did not
1:29:32and again is that something that you
1:29:33believe you would remember
1:29:36absolutely did
1:29:38he mention to you at the time that he
1:29:40believed that her disappearance
1:29:42was related to cocaine use he did
1:29:45he believe he said i recall him saying
1:29:48something about a drug user had been to
1:29:51the authority drugs
1:29:52dealer had been to the apartment let me
1:29:55ask you something
1:29:56um in the interactions that you had with
1:30:00kathy
1:30:01did you ever observe her to be acting
1:30:05consistently
1:30:06with a cocaine addict no i never thought
1:30:09that
1:30:14do you remember anything else that he
1:30:15told you about specifically about
1:30:18kathy's alleged disappearance
1:30:20he told me that he put her on a train
1:30:22and he hadn't heard from her
1:30:25since who was
1:30:28florence jones lawrence jones was bob's
1:30:32assistant secretary system slash
1:30:37and did you ever speak to flo jones
1:30:39about kathy's disappearance
1:30:41i did not and is your understanding now
1:30:43that flo jones is deceased
1:30:47if she tells me she is then that would
1:30:49be my understanding
1:30:51um i want to talk about specifically the
1:30:54week
1:30:54of kathy's alleged disappearance and i
1:30:56want to go to monday
1:30:57february 1st 19.
1:31:07so i will
1:31:13i'll remind you to not speak with any
1:31:15other witness during this break ladies
1:31:17and gentlemen
1:31:18ladies and gentlemen do not converse
1:31:20among your selves or with anyone else on
1:31:22any subject connected with this case do
1:31:24not form or express any opinion on the
1:31:26case
1:31:27you'll let the jurors exit and then you
1:31:29may step down
1:31:30during the day you're honored before the
1:31:32jurors exit yes would would the court
1:31:34uh consider inquiring whether if we set
1:31:37up this tv flush against that back rail
1:31:39there
1:31:39it's kind of out of the way whether that
1:31:40would work for them i i expect it would
1:31:43be fine
1:31:44so uh if we can do that without toppling
1:31:47it and breaking it again
1:31:49we'll wait till they go your honor yeah
1:31:52all right

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