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CA v. O.J. Simpson: Kato Kaelin Hears Odd Noises the Night of Murders — Transcript

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0:00Present before the court with his
0:01counsel, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Cochran, Mr.
0:03Douglas, Mr. Bailey.
0:05People are represented by Ms. Clark and
0:07Mr. Darden. The jury is not present.
0:12Counsel, is there anything we need to
0:13take up before we invite the jurors to
0:15rejoin us? Yes, Your Honor. Very
0:17briefly, uh
0:20we are quite concerned about some of the
0:22things that are being said uh
0:25at sidebar that are gratuitous in
0:27nature. And yesterday there were
0:29statements that were made that were
0:32quite derogatory of Jason Simpson and
0:36implied that he was involved in planting
0:39potential evidence. Uh since those
0:42sidebar conferences are public record
0:44and released, uh it not only causes a
0:49great deal of anxiety to Mr. Simpson, it
0:53causes us great concern because
0:56in the unfortunate event that this jury
0:59cannot reach a verdict,
1:01it's going to be much more difficult in
1:03the future
1:05to try to pick a fair and impartial
1:07juror if jury if they are being poisoned
1:11by these types of gratuitous comments.
1:14And I want the record to reflect that we
1:16strenuously object to those.
1:18One moment, please.
1:24And and in this case, the statement was
1:27directly in contradiction to the facts
1:29in this case that have been filed by a
1:31judge under seal.
1:36All right. Any other comment?
1:39All right. Let's have the jurors. Your
1:40Honor, could I ask one I had to one it's
1:42good and I think
1:44by by the defense attorney I indicated
1:46I've indicated to Mr. Shapiro already
1:47that we have a
1:50a very short segment of videotape that I
1:52wanted to be able to show to this
1:53witness
1:54on the witness stand and I want to make
1:56sure that it is
1:58the date that I think Pardon? All right.
2:01Yeah, that's something I can lay a
2:02foundation for. Perhaps what I should do
2:04right now is show it to counsel so that
2:06um
2:06we don't have to take a break in the
2:08proceedings
2:09at the time.
2:11All right.
2:15What is this video of? It's a robbery in
2:18progress.
2:33Audio is working.
2:39What did they see us?
2:43They didn't see us
2:44because they were driving.
2:48Okay, we're 30 seconds away. 30 seconds
2:51away.
2:54Look at me, fellas.
3:00Give me that open door.
3:03Okay, we're 15 seconds away. 10 seconds
3:06away.
3:07It's not on our side. I don't know
3:08what's up. Okay, we're going to do it.
3:40You stay on them, not on me.
3:44Keep doing this. Go back to the
3:45building.
3:47Go back.
4:23What's this station?
4:28All right, Ms. Clark, we've had the
4:29opportunity to see the video.
5:01Uh that's it. That's it?
5:04Mr. Shapiro, any comment? Yes, Your
5:06Honor. We'd like to offer a proof as to
5:08the relevance.
5:10All right.
5:11It will be presented with
5:13uh Kato.
5:15But first, before I do that, what I need
5:17to inquire of the defense is from what
5:20station this tape
5:23came
5:24and the copy of the SDT that produced
5:27it.
5:31Do we know?
5:33I don't think we know at this point.
5:35We have We have to try to look at that.
5:36See what she wants to do.
5:38Today?
5:42How could they not know? Well,
5:44counsel, out of out of curiosity, what's
5:45the relevance of that clip?
5:48Well, the person that is with Mr. Kaelin
5:51is Ron Shipp.
5:52Correct. Ron Shipp has testified to his
5:55presence at the house
5:57on June the 13th.
5:59If the court will recall,
6:01we believe this tape was made on June
6:03the 13th.
6:05It will demonstrate will corroborate Ron
6:07Shipp's testimony.
6:09And then of course the clip of the dog
6:14We'll we'll stipulate Mr. Shipp was
6:16there on the 13th. That's not an issue.
6:19The people are allowed to prove their
6:20case
6:22in their own way.
6:23what is the relevance of the the Akita
6:26dog?
6:27Well, if one recalls the testimony of
6:29Rosa Lopez,
6:30a dog that was barking furiously the
6:32night before is
6:35being is being very docile and petted by
6:37complete and total strangers.
6:40So, Your Honor,
6:41I've had dogs all my life and sometimes
6:43they bark, sometimes they don't bark.
6:45And as it turns out, we were around a
6:47friendly police officer.
6:50Oh, all of a sudden it's a friendly
6:51police officer.
6:53I love it. Wait, can I can I get this
6:55admitted?
6:57The problem is that the foundation is
6:59there. One one one counsel per per side,
7:02Mr. Cochran. On this one. Yes.
7:04She has a question regarding the
7:06foundation of this tape. She Your Honor,
7:09objection. What
7:10I
7:12I noted it.
7:13All right.
7:14I assume the answer is since they
7:16weren't prepared, they don't ask to this
7:18particular snippet of videotape, they
7:20can't tell you
7:22who the
7:23cinematographer was or the videographer,
7:26whatever it is we call them these days.
7:28Uh
7:31However, if it's in sequence,
7:34uh I did see a Detective Lange
7:37carrying his uh
7:40clipboard and what appeared to be the
7:43pair Reebok shoes. That he's already
7:45testified
7:46is we don't know if that's in sequence
7:48cuz there appears to me to be a cut in
7:49between. Right. There does.
7:52Um perhaps I could do it this way, Your
7:54Honor.
7:54We know that there will be a foundation
7:56forthcoming because someone
7:58obviously videotaped it and the defense
8:00got the tape from that person. And as
8:02soon as the defense tells me who it is,
8:03I can call the person and lay the
8:05foundation.
8:06Let me let me cut to the chase. Mr.
8:07Shapiro, is there any objection to this?
8:10Yes, Your Honor.
8:11On foundational grounds?
8:14If I can ask the court to allow me to
8:15have the witness identify himself and
8:18Ron Shipp and the dog subject to a
8:20motion to strike. I will not elicit
8:21testimony from this witness as to when
8:24the videotape when that those events
8:26transpired and I'll call the person who
8:28shot the tape to testify of that.
8:32All right. Any response to that
8:33proposal, Mr. Shapiro? We would be in
8:34objection.
8:35I see.
8:37Okay.
8:37I'll allow it subject to a motion to
8:39strike. Thank you, Your Honor.
8:45All right. Let's have the jurors,
8:45please.
8:48Reflect that we've now been rejoined by
8:49all the members of our jury panel. Good
8:51morning, ladies and gentlemen.
8:53Mr. Kaelin, would you resume the witness
8:55stand, please?
9:02All right. I want you to pull the
9:03microphone close to you, please.
9:05All right. Good morning, Mr. Kaelin.
9:07Good morning. You're reminded you are
9:08still under oath, sir. Yes. Ms. Clark,
9:11you may resume with your direct
9:12examination. Thank you, Your Honor. Good
9:14morning.
9:17Uh
9:20Mr. Kaelin, yesterday
9:25you were explaining to us the layout of
9:26the house. Yes.
9:28Recall.
9:28I'd like to go back to that for just
9:31a brief moment.
9:57Is this
9:59Is that
10:01This is Robertson. Is the water fresh?
10:04Water fresh.
10:10Showing you all
10:12Today I got to mark this people 66. You
10:14would look at this
10:14Mr. Kaelin to step down? Uh yes, thank
10:16you, Ron.
10:24All right, let me ask you a couple of
10:25questions.
10:27Are there any doors that lead out onto
10:29the south pathway
10:31uh from the main house
10:34or garage area?
10:36South pathway? Yes. Yes. Um yes.
10:41And can you tell us which ones they are?
10:43There's a uh laundry room. Mhm.
10:46I guess that would be right here. For
10:48the record, the witness is indicating
10:49the yellow arrow that's been placed by
10:52where is a There's a um V indentation in
10:55the main house.
10:56Okay.
10:58And now there's one in the uh garage.
11:03Okay. Do you know where on that south
11:05wall of the garage it is?
11:09It's
11:10the opening here, so it'd be around
11:11here, I think. Okay, be farther um to
11:15the left of the yellow arrow that's been
11:16placed on the board right now.
11:18Yes. Okay.
11:19That's where the car would have been,
11:21right here. Mhm. Yeah. Okay.
11:24You're saying it'd be farther to the
11:25left of that. Can you show us
11:26approximately where you think it would
11:27be?
11:29I think it would be right about here.
11:31Okay, and for the record, the witness
11:33has pointed to the area where there's an
11:35indentation in the garage to the left of
11:37the yellow arrow placed by the garage.
11:39You know, be free to free to 4 in to the
11:41left. May I suggest we mark that? I
11:44Right.
11:47Do you have my uh sticker?
11:50I think that we went back to you.
11:54I have that now.
11:57All right.
12:04Perhaps we should even label those
12:06stickers with either the witness's
12:07initials and/or one, two, or three.
12:10I just put it on Mr. Kaelin right here
12:12on the wall.
12:19Thank you.
12:21And for the record, the witness I'm
12:23going to put a I'm going to put the
12:25witness's initials on that arrow.
12:27Um
12:29B K.
12:40All right, you can resume your seat.
12:50With respect to the door uh
12:53that you indicated was the laundry room.
12:57Okay. That door that leads out onto the
12:59south pathway from the laundry room of
13:01the main house, sir.
13:02That is indicated by the arrow
13:05that is unmarked on the V part of the
13:07main house here.
13:09All right. With respect to that
13:10particular door, sir.
13:12First of all, did you ever use the
13:14laundry room when you were living in the
13:15house? Yes.
13:17And have you ever Did you ever see
13:19anyone go in or out of that door?
13:21Not really used. Okay.
13:23And do you recall whether it was kept
13:25locked with a deadbolt or some other
13:27means?
13:28Um I'm not sure.
13:30But you never saw it used? I never used
13:33it. I never really saw it used, no.
13:35With respect to the garage door.
14:14I have a photograph that I asked him to
14:16eventually into the counsel.
14:54Mr. Clark.
15:00Mr. Clark, are you going to use the 66
15:02any longer? Uh no.
15:03All right, let's have it taken down,
15:04please.
15:06I have a photograph
15:10bearing the numbers in the lower
15:11right-hand corner 000095.
15:15I asked him to mark people's 130.
15:19And
15:21000096
15:23in the lower right-hand corner of the
15:24photograph people's 131.
15:34Fine.
15:35Mr. Kaelin.
15:37Were you ever inside the garage of the
15:39location 360 North Rockingham? Yes.
15:43Can you tell us, please, sir, uh the to
15:46the best of your recollection at this
15:47time
15:49what you recall seeing inside that
15:50garage?
15:52If you enter from the laundry room door,
15:56you'd see you'd walk into a a weight
15:58set, uh workout center.
16:02Right in the front.
16:03Mirrors.
16:05Uh a car would be parked
16:09uh against the garage door, the opening.
16:11What kind of car?
16:12Uh Testarossa. What color? Red.
16:15Was it kept covered or uncovered?
16:17Usually covered. Okay.
16:20Um
16:21and there was
16:23shelves
16:25with
16:27I don't know what was in buckets, paint
16:29maybe.
16:31A lot of stuff in there? Yes. Okay.
16:34Now, do you recall my asking you if
16:35there was a garage door that led out to
16:38the south pathway in your memory
16:41when we had were discussing uh this case
16:43in my office?
16:44Yes. Did you remember that there was a
16:46garage door initially? No. And why is
16:48that?
16:50I didn't see it.
16:51Ever use it? No. Ever see anyone use it?
16:54No.
16:57People's 130. I would ask you to look at
16:59your monitor.
17:02Yes.
17:08Did the items in the garage ever vary
17:11from time to time?
17:15You mean storage things or
17:17Yes.
17:19I wouldn't know.
17:20It'd be
17:22There could There could be
17:23stuff in there, yes. Did you go to the
17:25garage often?
17:26No.
17:29How many times would you say you were in
17:30the garage during the period of time you
17:32were
17:33Excuse me, that you were living there?
17:3716.
17:3816 times?
17:40And you lived there for how long?
17:426 months.
17:46If uh you were shown a photograph, do
17:48you think you'd be able to tell what
17:50date that photograph was taken?
17:52No.
17:53Thank you, nothing further.
17:55All right. Mr. Clark.
18:01Proceed.
18:05Do you know what the contents of the
18:07garage were or what the garage looked
18:09like inside as of June the 12th, 1994?
18:15Of some of things, yes. Okay. If I show
18:17you a photograph of the interior of that
18:20garage, can you tell you will you be
18:21able to tell us whether it fits your
18:23memory of the appearance of that
18:25location? Yes.
18:28One, please.
18:30Counselor, I think I think Excuse me.
18:32Excuse me. I think the objection is he
18:34needs to look at the photograph and tell
18:36us if that matches his recollection
18:37before it's shown to the jury.
18:48And for the record, that's people's
18:50People's 130, yes, sir. I'm sorry.
18:52That's the garage inside. And is that
18:54the way you recall seeing it, sir? Yes.
18:56That fits your memory of it? Yes.
19:02No.
19:03Proceed.
19:10One, please.
19:20All right, you're looking at 130 right
19:22now, Mr. Kaelin.
19:25Yes. All right. Can you tell us
19:28What What are you looking at? What
19:30location is that?
19:31That's the uh
19:32coming from the laundry The shot was
19:33taken probably from the laundry room
19:35door, and it's the garage. And so you're
19:37looking from the interior of the house
19:39into the garage? Yes.
19:41And is that uh the appearance of the
19:43garage as you last remember seeing it?
19:45Yes.
19:47Okay, directing your attention, sir. I'm
19:48going to use a laser.
19:53Can you look up at the screen for a
19:54moment?
19:57Okay, you see this little red dot? Yes.
19:59All right.
20:01First of all, what am I pointing to
20:02here?
20:04It's the weights.
20:05The workout center. All right. And
20:07behind that those weights, what do you
20:09see what I'm circling?
20:11The car, the Testarossa. Okay. And you
20:14see is it covered here?
20:16Yes, it is. All right. And is that the
20:17cover you recall seeing on it?
20:19Yes.
20:20Was it usually kept covered in that
20:21manner?
20:22Yes. Okay. And over here, sir.
20:26What's what's on the wall over here?
20:29I can't tell from the shot, but I think
20:30that's the mirrors. Okay.
20:32Dark and sunny.
20:33All right. Now, I'm moving
20:35the red dot to an area right here. You
20:38see this big cardboard box? Yes. And was
20:41that Do you recall that being in the
20:42garage as well?
20:46It probably was, but I can't recall. I
20:49mean, there were storage things.
20:51So, it probably yes.
20:53It was
20:54All right. And I'm directing your
20:55attention now to an area just above that
20:57box.
20:59Can you see what that is, sir?
21:04That's the door.
21:08Let me show you
21:09another view.
21:13People's 131.
21:18And what are we looking at here, sir?
21:20It's just a different angle of the
21:22garage again. Same.
21:24With all with all the with the car
21:26Right.
21:26and then the weights.
21:28All right. The shot's taken like where
21:29the mirrors would be. Okay.
21:31And then the door
21:33would be on the left-hand side of the
21:35photograph that you can't see, right?
21:36Correct.
21:44All right. I'm going to show you
21:45a next series of three photographs.
21:48First one
21:50with the number in the lower right-hand
21:52corner of
21:5388.
21:55People's 132.
22:06Same location.
22:09I'll show the witness the pictures
22:10first. Please. And if I could mark them
22:12though, so I can refer to them. All
22:13right. 132, 133, and 134. Correct. Thank
22:16you.
22:18That'd be 133 is got the number 89 in
22:21the lower right-hand corner. 134 has the
22:22number 90 in the right-hand corner.
22:27Mr. Kaelin, can you tell us if you
22:28recognize what's shown in these
22:29photographs?
22:31The garage. Okay.
22:33And do you recognize the items shown in
22:35this photograph?
22:36Uh
22:37items that are stored in the garage.
22:39Okay. And had you seen them there before
22:40when you were living there? Yes.
22:43Do you recognize the car shown in these
22:44photographs? Yes.
22:46Is that the same as the car shown in the
22:47previous photographs you've identified?
22:49Yes. Is there a cover on the car in
22:51these photographs? No.
22:53There are bicycles shown in these
22:55photographs. Do you recall seeing
22:56bicycles in that position in the garage
22:58when you lived there?
23:00Yeah, there'd be bikes that could be on
23:02the other side, that side, but yeah.
23:03Just like that. Okay.
23:08And the big cardboard box with the
23:10television on top of the chest
23:12that you see there. Yes.
23:15Uh that's Does that appear to be the
23:16same cardboard box, chest, and
23:18television that you see uh that you saw
23:20in the previous photographs?
23:21Yes.
23:24And does this fit your memory of the
23:26appearance of the
23:27interior of the garage when you were
23:29living at 360 North Rockingham? Yes.
23:36I'm going to show you People's 132. If
23:38you please look at your monitor.
23:52Directing your attention now, sir, to
23:53the television set and the chest and the
23:56large cardboard box.
23:59As you look above those items, what do
24:00you Can you see
24:03what is above the television set here?
24:05And if you could look at the screen
24:06where I'm gesturing with my with the
24:08laser light.
24:09If you can see it.
24:12That's the door.
24:16133, please.
24:22Showing you People's 133.
24:25I'm gesturing with the laser light.
24:29What's that, sir?
24:33That's the the door.
24:35134, please.
24:39And once again, if you could look at the
24:41screen. I'm sorry. The door again. All
24:43right. And you see here the chest and
24:45the television set and the cardboard box
24:48Yes. shown in the previous
24:50four photographs.
24:52Yes. Okay.
24:54And does this
24:55Does Do these views of the garage
24:57comport with your memory of its
24:58appearance when you were living there?
25:01Yes.
25:19All right, Mr. Kaelin, we're directing
25:20your attention back to the date
25:24of June the 12th, 1994.
25:27On that date, I think you indicated that
25:30Paula Barbieri had called is this in the
25:32afternoon of June the Objection, your
25:33honor. Misstates the evidence.
25:35Sustain.
25:41Can you tell us, sir, whether Paula
25:43Barbieri called the defendant on the
25:44date of June the 12th, 1994? Objection,
25:46lack of
25:47Overruled.
25:50He can answer the question.
25:52I'm pretty sure. It's I'm pretty sure,
25:54yes. Okay.
25:55And after that phone call, sir, did you
25:57have a conversation with the defendant
25:59about Paula? Yes.
26:01And what did he tell you about Paula?
26:04Objection, hearsay.
26:05Overruled.
26:08You can answer.
26:11Um part of the conversation was about
26:13the recital.
26:15Okay.
26:17And what did he tell you about that?
26:19Objection.
26:21Grounds.
26:22Hearsay, irrelevant. Overruled.
26:25You can answer the question.
26:27From what I remember that
26:29she wanted to go and
26:31I believe O.J. didn't want her to go
26:33kind of on his own. Okay.
26:38So, he didn't want her to go to the
26:39recital with him?
26:42At that time, yes.
26:44Did he tell you what his feelings were
26:46about Paula? Objection, lack
26:49Overruled.
26:51Answer.
26:52That he wasn't sure as far as
26:55just the one, maybe the one, maybe not
26:56the one.
26:58I'm sorry. To spend, you know, to be the
27:00one to be with.
27:04Like for life. Okay. He wasn't sure if
27:06she was the one for him?
27:08Objection, lack
27:09Sustain. Rephrase the question. Okay.
27:12Can you Can you please tell us what did
27:14the defendant say to you about his
27:15feelings about Paula?
27:17Not being sure if
27:19um Paula was going to be the one to be
27:21with.
27:24Did he tell you he was undecided about
27:26her?
27:27Objection, leading. Sustain.
27:31Did he tell you whether or not he had
27:32made a decision about whether he wanted
27:34to be with her or not?
27:35Not a decision. It was undecided. Okay.
27:46Now, did
27:47you have another phone conversation with
27:49the woman after that point on the
27:52afternoon of June the 12th?
27:54Yes. And who was that? Tracy Adele.
27:58And whose friend was that?
28:00Uh my friend.
28:03Did you speak to Tracy?
28:06Briefly. Okay.
28:08And then what did you do after you
28:09briefly spoke to Tracy?
28:12I hand phone back to O.J.
28:15And then did he speak to her? Yes.
28:17Did he make a date with her? Objection,
28:19calls for speculation.
28:21Did you hear what he said to her?
28:23I didn't hear all the words, no. I tried
28:25not to listen.
28:28Did you hear him set up a date to meet
28:29her later? Objection, leading and
28:31suggestive. Sustain.
28:37Did you hear him say What did you hear
28:38him tell her?
28:40Well, I know it was long distance. She
28:41was calling from another state. Okay.
28:45Did you hear What did you hear him say
28:46about making any plans to get together
28:48with her, if any?
28:50I'm I'm not sure of that.
28:52I know they talked and she was
28:53interested in
28:55uh business.
28:56Like being an entrepreneur.
28:59And that's
29:01was like they're talking business, so
29:03they could have gotten talked about
29:04getting together, but I'm not positive.
29:12All right. Now, at some point did you
29:13leave the house that afternoon?
29:16Yes, I did.
29:19What time did you leave the house?
29:21I probably left about 3:34 Okay. to play
29:24basketball. To play basketball?
29:26Yes, I did. And what time did you get
29:28back?
29:30Got back at about
29:336:00.
29:35Okay.
29:36And when you get got back, what did you
29:38do?
29:40I uh
29:42talked to O.J.
29:44Where were you when you talked to him?
29:46In the kitchen nook.
29:49And what time was it then?
29:51It was about
29:536:37.
29:56And uh
29:57had you been watching a game or
29:58something?
29:59Yes. What game was that?
30:00I was watching that in my room. It was
30:01the Houston and the Knicks. It was a
30:03playoff game.
30:04So you spoke to him after the game
30:05ended, did you?
30:06Yes.
30:09And how was it that you came to speak to
30:10him after the game ended? I think I
30:12heard him shout Kato.
30:15And when he did that, what did you do?
30:17Hey, talk. I was sorry. Did you leave
30:20your room? Yes. Were you in your room
30:22when you heard him call Kato? Yeah, I or
30:24I was like on the uh kind of the patio
30:26area.
30:27But I was in my room. I could have just
30:28gotten out for a bit and I heard the
30:30name.
30:34So did you go into the house when he
30:36called you? Yes.
30:38Did you talk to him? Yes.
30:40And what did you talk about?
30:42Uh about the game,
30:44about who won the game,
30:45uh the recital,
30:47um how Sydney
30:50was at the recital. Okay.
30:53And what did he say to you about uh
30:55Sydney at the recital?
30:57He said Sydney was great at the recital.
31:00And Sydney is his daughter, correct?
31:01is his daughter. Was at the dance
31:02recital.
31:03What else did he tell you?
31:06She was great uh that Nicole was there.
31:11And
31:11And and and friends.
31:13That Nicole was there with some friends?
31:15Friends.
31:17What did he tell you about Nicole?
31:21Sustained. Rephrase the question. What
31:22if anything did he tell you about
31:24Nicole?
31:26He wanted to talk with Sydney.
31:29And
31:31I don't I don't think it was the wording
31:33but Nicole wasn't going to give him time
31:34to talk to Sydney.
31:36And uh he wanted to talk to his
31:37daughter.
31:38And I think they they went off
31:39somewhere.
31:41Who went off somewhere?
31:42Uh Nicole and the kids. Okay.
31:49So what what did that have to do with
31:51Nicole? I'm not I'm not clear on that.
31:52Oh, they all Objection.
31:54Sustained. Rephrase the question.
31:57It's fine with speculation as far as
31:58this witness.
32:00Okay. I'm
32:01What I'm
32:12With the court reporter.
32:15All right. Thank you, counsel. Miss
32:16Clark, you may proceed. Thank you, Your
32:18Honor.
32:23ALL RIGHT, MR. KAELIN, WHEN YOU
32:28GET THAT QUESTION BACK.
32:42What did the defendant tell you about
32:44Nicole at the recital? What did he tell
32:47you about what transpired with Nicole
32:48and Sydney at the recital?
32:50Okay, about taking her with him about
32:51what she was wearing.
32:53What did Nicole tell What did the
32:55defendant tell you transpired, if
32:58anything,
32:59with regard to himself, Nicole, and
33:01Sydney?
33:03Okay.
33:05That OJ wanted to spend time with
33:07Sydney.
33:08And that Nicole wasn't going to give him
33:09the time to have with his daughter talk
33:11to her at the recital, so they went off.
33:14Did he tell you whether he did get to
33:16spend some time with Sydney anyway? Uh
33:18short time. Okay.
33:20What if anything did he tell you about
33:22Nicole herself at the recital?
33:24Uh about her what outfit that she had
33:26on. And what did he say about that?
33:28That
33:30they were wearing
33:31and her who she was with, that they were
33:33wearing tight outfits and wondered if
33:35they could be grandma and grandmas and
33:37wear those outfits out.
33:41Did he remark that she was wearing a
33:42tight dress that night? Objection.
33:44Leading the Sustained.
33:47What remark did he make about What if
33:49any remark did he make about what she
33:51was wearing that night?
33:52Uh that it was a a tight outfit.
33:55Yeah.
34:00Did you have some further conversation
34:01with him?
34:03Yes. And what was that?
34:07I was wondering if I could take a
34:08Jacuzzi.
34:10Okay. And did he give you permission to
34:12do that?
34:12Yes.
34:14Did you Did you talk at all about what
34:15he was going to be doing that evening?
34:17Uh yes.
34:18And what did he tell you?
34:19Uh
34:20that he was going to take a flight out.
34:23He had to pack
34:24for a trip to uh Chicago.
34:28And did he seem pleased about that? No.
34:32That he didn't like red eyes.
34:41Did he give you permission to take the
34:42Jacuzzi when you asked for it? Yes. So
34:44what did you do?
34:46I took a Jacuzzi. About what time was
34:48that?
34:51About 7:30, I'm guessing. 7:30, 7:45, I
34:55took a Jacuzzi.
34:57What time did you finish taking the
34:58Jacuzzi?
34:59About 8:30. Okay. When you got done with
35:01your Jacuzzi, what did you do?
35:03I went to my room.
35:05And what did you do there?
35:07I got on the phone.
35:09Who'd you call?
35:11A friend named uh
35:13Susan.
35:15And while you were on the phone, were
35:17you interrupted by anything?
35:20I know it was on during it but I yes, uh
35:22OJ came to the room.
35:24And did you have a conversation with
35:25him? Yes. What was the nature of that
35:27conversation? I forgot to turn off the
35:29Jacuzzi.
35:31He brought that to your attention? Yes.
35:33What did he say about that?
35:35You forgot to turn off the Jacuzzi. And
35:37what did you do?
35:38I was going to Oh, I'll turn it off but
35:40he said he turned it off already, the
35:41jets of the
35:44Jacuzzi. And when you had that
35:45conversation with him, were you still in
35:47your room or did you exit your room?
35:49Uh kind of the doorway. There's a a
35:52door. I was in the room still.
35:54He was on the
35:56out of the door, the outside.
36:01What happened next?
36:03Um I went back and I made another call.
36:08And who was it that you called at that
36:09time? A another friend, Tom.
36:13And where was he living at that time?
36:14San Diego.
36:16Do you remember exactly what time you
36:17called him?
36:19Not the exact time,
36:21but around around like 9:00. Okay. Do
36:24you remember Do you know by heart his
36:26phone number?
36:29Yes.
36:58You guys are good.
37:05Then I'll have you report this to show
37:06me, counsel.
37:07I just made sure of that and ask to mark
37:10People's 135.
37:13If you would step down, Mr. Kaelin. All
37:15right. People's 135. Thank you, Your
37:23You can see the uh
37:25What is this here, please, sir?
37:28My phone bill.
37:30And can you tell us There are the
37:32portions here highlighted
37:34indicating June the 12th. This is
37:36military time, 21:03, which is 9:03 p.m.
37:40New San Diego, California,
37:42area code 619, and the phone number that
37:44follows. Do you recognize that phone
37:45number? Yes, that's Tom's number.
37:48Indicates that the call was for 8
37:50minutes.
37:52Okay. 9:03, does that comport with your
37:55memory and help to refresh your memory
37:56exactly what time that call was placed?
37:58Yes.
38:00And And up here, does that indicate what
38:02your phone number was as of June the
38:0312th, 1994? Yes, it was.
38:09You can have a seat, sir.
38:13Thank you. All right. Do you want to Go
38:15with 14
38:161492. Yes, sir.
38:50This part. Thank you, Your Honor.
39:01All right. So you spoke to uh Tom
39:02O'Brien.
39:03Yes.
39:06And as the uh record indicated, it was
39:08about a 7-minute call.
39:11After you hung up with uh Tom O'Brien,
39:13what happened next?
39:15Um I saw OJ again.
39:19Now, were you still on the phone at that
39:21time or had you hung up? No, I was still
39:23on the phone.
39:25So the defendant came out to see you and
39:28you were still talking to Tom? Yeah, I
39:29was talking to Tom and I I hung up
39:31during the the talking to OJ.
39:33I said, "Hey, Tom, I'll I'll call you
39:35back." Okay.
39:37And what happened at that point? Did you
39:38have a conversation with the defendant?
39:40Yes.
39:41Tell us what the nature of that
39:42conversation was.
39:44It was um
39:46to get some he had $100 bills and he
39:48needed like a five for the sky cap and
39:49he asked me if I had some cash.
39:55So after he told you he only had $100
39:58bills and he needed a $5 bill for the
40:00sky cap, what did you do?
40:03I I gave him 20.
40:08You gave him a 20 Was it a $20 bill?
40:09Yes.
40:14And when you gave him the $20 bill, did
40:16you put it in his hand? Yes. Could you
40:18see both his hands?
40:21One hand for sure, but I I could see
40:22both hands, yeah. Did you notice him
40:24bleeding or cut on either hand? No.
40:30And so and what happened next?
40:33I I gave him the money
40:35and he said he was going to get
40:37hamburger and
40:38I
40:39said, "Can I go?"
40:41You invited yourself to go with him?
40:43Yes. And what was his response to that?
40:46Sure.
40:52He seemed real excited to have you come?
40:55Objection. Sustained.
40:57Wouldn't you? SUSTAINED.
41:09THIS PART.
41:10THANK YOU, RONALD.
41:15SO DID YOU GO WITH HIM, SIR? YES, I did.
41:17What was he wearing at that time?
41:21At the Best Buy America election, I
41:22thought it was a sweat outfit. Okay,
41:24what color was it? Dark color.
41:27Could you tell?
41:29It was either blue or dark blue or
41:31black.
41:33And the material did What kind of
41:34material was it?
41:38I thought it was like a cotton.
41:41Was it long-sleeved, sir? Yes.
41:46Do you remember what kind of shoes he
41:47was wearing?
41:48No.
41:56All right, when you left where did you
41:58walk through, sir?
42:00Uh we walked from the sidewalk in the
42:03back to the back door past the bar to
42:07the kitchen nook
42:08to the outside.
42:11What car did you get into? Um the
42:13Rolls-Royce.
42:16And where did And where the Rolls-Royce,
42:18when you got into it, sir, can you tell
42:19us where it was parked?
42:21In the driveway.
42:23And where was it facing? What direction,
42:25if you can tell us?
42:25The headlights would be facing the
42:27Rockingham gate.
42:57Showing you what's been marked as
42:58People's 136, sir, can you tell us if
42:59you recognize the car in the foreground
43:01of that photograph? Yes. And what is it?
43:04That's the Rolls-Royce.
43:06Look at the grill.
43:07I'm sorry? Never mind.
43:10I said, "Look at the grill." Look at the
43:11grill, it's a Bentley.
43:13Could it be a Bentley, sir?
43:15Oh, yes. Okay.
43:17Is that the position in which it was
43:19usually parked in the driveway?
43:21Yes. And the gate that you said it was
43:23facing, in that position, what gate
43:25would it be facing in this photograph?
43:27The picture's taken from the Rockingham
43:29gate.
43:30And was that the position in which it
43:31was parked when you got into it with Mr.
43:34Simpson on the date of June the 12th?
43:36Yes.
43:38Who drove the car?
43:39Uh O.J.
43:44And approximately what time was it when
43:46you left with him to go get something to
43:49eat? Approximately 9:10.
43:52About 10 minutes after 9:00 was that?
43:53Yes.
43:57What gate did you exit through?
43:59Rockingham gate.
44:02As the defendant drove, sir, were you
44:03able to see his hands?
44:05Yes. See any injury to them?
44:08No.
44:09Any bleeding from either hand? No.
44:14As you exited the Rockingham gate, did
44:16you look to see whether there were any
44:17other cars parked on the curb? Uh
44:20no, I I didn't look.
44:28All right, while you were in the car on
44:29the way to McDonald's, did you have some
44:31conversation with the defendant? Yes.
44:34What was the nature of that
44:35conversation?
44:36Uh there was some conversation uh
44:38about the flight
44:40The red eye flight? what an airline
44:44um
44:46uh to tired
44:49at um one point I had said, "Oh, you
44:52should take a nap." And if there was
44:54going to be time, he didn't think
44:55there'd be time and I said, "Well, you
44:56should try to take one, you look tired."
44:58Wait, what did you say?
44:59I said, "You should take a nap." I said,
45:01"Do you have time to take a nap?" And
45:03what did the defendant say? That he
45:04probably wouldn't have time to. He
45:06probably would not have time to? And
45:07then I said, "You should try to."
45:11Okay.
45:12And did he make any response to that?
45:14No, no response.
45:18Did you have any conversation that
45:20caused you to notice the clock in the
45:22car?
45:23Yes. And what was the nature of that
45:24conversation? That was what directed me
45:27to the time about taking time for a nap.
45:29Okay, so when he indicated when the uh
45:31Excuse me, sir. Oh.
45:32At 26th and San Vicente.
45:35That was when you were gotten to 26th
45:37and San Vicente?
45:38Yes. So when the defendant said he
45:40didn't think he had time to take a nap,
45:41you looked at the clock? Yes, and there
45:43was a stoplight. I remember a stoplight.
45:45And what time was it when you were at
45:4625th 26th and San Vicente? It was like
45:499:15 9:18 on the clock of the car. 9:15
45:52and 9:18, it looked like it was right
45:55past the
45:57Okay.
45:58Was this a digital clock?
46:00No, it was a
46:03numbered clock. What I mean.
46:06Numerals.
46:08Like digital would be that, too, but you
46:09know what I'm saying. I do.
46:11Analog. Analog.
46:16And so you you looked at the clock, you
46:18saw it was 9:15 to 9:18 and how long
46:20after that did you get Was it before you
46:22got to McDonald's?
46:25I think
46:27six minutes or so.
46:30So
46:31you got to McDonald's at approximately
46:33what time?
46:359:00
46:38like 9:22.
46:41And did you go into the into the
46:42McDonald's or did you do drive-thru?
46:44Drive-thru.
46:50And that McDonald's is located where?
46:52I'm pretty sure it's on Santa Monica
46:54across from a
46:56a Carl's Jr., I remember.
46:58That's Santa Monica Boulevard?
47:01Yes.
47:03Now you went to when you drove up to the
47:05drive-thru window
47:08who paid for the food?
47:10I I paid, but O.J. gave him the money.
47:13Okay, so now you had already given him
47:15$20, is that right? Yes. So you pulled
47:17out another 20 to pay for the food?
47:19Yes.
47:22Did he ask you to do that? No.
47:24You just did it.
47:25Yes. All right, when he paid for the
47:27food,
47:28after paying for it, did he then
47:31give you any change back? Yes.
47:34Did you notice his hands as he paid for
47:36the food and gave you your change?
47:38Yes. See any injury to the either hand?
47:41No.
47:44Approximately what time was it when you
47:45got your food?
47:48Um 9:25
47:519:26.
48:01All right. Now as the defendant drove
48:04home, what was he doing?
48:06Eating the food.
48:08So he ate and drove at the same time?
48:12Yeah, but he finished pretty fast. I
48:13mean, it wasn't
48:15Yeah, he ate and drove.
48:18And did you eat at the same time while
48:20you were in the car?
48:21No.
48:23Few
48:23french fries.
48:25So as he ate
48:27with one hand, he drove with the other,
48:28is that right? Yes.
48:32Were you able to see his hands?
48:33Yes. See any injury to the either hand?
48:36No.
48:36About what time was it when you got
48:38home?
48:39It's about 9:40.
48:44Do you recall whether
48:46you entered the property at 360
48:49Rockingham through the Rock Rockingham
48:51or Ashford gate? I'm sure pretty sure it
48:53was Ashford gate.
48:55When the car when he parked the car, can
48:58you tell us, sir
49:00in what position he parked the car when
49:01you returned? Uh this same as the the
49:04picture.
49:06And when you say the picture, you mean
49:08People's 136 on the screen now? Yes.
49:14Do you remember how the gate on Ashford
49:16opened when you went inside?
49:19I don't, but it just opened. I wasn't
49:22aware. It just
49:24wasn't something I looked for. Did you
49:25look to see whether there were any cars
49:27parked on the at the curb of the Ashford
49:31gate?
49:32I didn't look.
49:35Can you tell us, sir
49:38whether the defendant owned any other
49:39car besides the Bentley and the uh
49:42Testarossa you identified in earlier
49:44photographs? Yes. And what was that? A
49:47Ford Bronco. Color? White.
49:50Can you tell us where he normally parked
49:51it?
49:53Usually on Ashford. By the gate?
49:57On the street.
49:58By I mean near the gate on the street.
50:00Near the gate.
50:03When you first moved into the property
50:05in January of 1994, do you recall seeing
50:07it
50:08uh parked in that location from the
50:10first time you moved in? Objection,
50:12leading. Sustained.
50:15When do you first recall seeing the uh
50:18white Ford Bronco parked near the
50:19Ashford gate on the street?
50:22Uh usually on Ashford. Yeah.
50:24Yes.
50:24When was the first time you noticed
50:25that?
50:27I The exact date I I don't know.
50:29Probably January.
50:31And It was there.
50:32January of '94?
50:34And is that when you moved into
50:35Rockingham?
50:36Yes.
50:39I'd ask if you mark People's 137.
50:42All right, People's 137.
50:48Look at your monitor, sir.
50:50Mr. Kaelin, you can look at your
50:51monitor.
50:54You see the car that's shown in People's
50:55137?
50:56Yes.
50:58Do you recognize that car? Yes, I do.
51:01What is it? Uh it's the O.J.'s uh Ford
51:04white Bronco.
51:06The one that you were discussing
51:07earlier? Yes.
51:10Who drove that car, sir?
51:12Um O.J. and sometimes uh Gigi to the
51:15store.
51:17Anybody else? No.
51:21That that I knew of, no. How often did
51:23Gigi ever drive it?
51:25Sometimes she would take it to the store
51:27if she needed to do an errand, she would
51:29take it. Okay.
51:30Otherwise, it was the defendant? Yes.
51:43All right, when you got back to
51:48when you got back to Rockingham,
51:50uh defendant parked the car in the
51:52location you indicated on People's 136.
51:57Can you tell us, sir, what happened
51:58next?
52:00After McDonald's Yes.
52:02Um I got out of the car.
52:05And I had my food.
52:07And I walked towards the kitchen.
52:10And I thought I was kind of inviting
52:11myself, so I turned and I went to my
52:13room. Okay. So, you you were carrying
52:15your food, sir? Yes.
52:17And you say you walked toward the
52:18kitchen.
52:19Were you inside the house already?
52:21No, no. You walked towards that door?
52:23Towards the door.
52:25And were you intending to go inside the
52:26house?
52:27I was
52:29thinking about, you know, I was going to
52:30do it and I didn't do it.
52:34Yeah, cuz I thought I should eat in my
52:35room.
52:36I was going to go into the kitchen area,
52:38but I thought I'm just kind of inviting
52:39myself. I should probably go to my room.
52:41Okay, so you thought you were going to
52:43have your dinner with the defendant
52:44inside the house?
52:46Well, yes. Okay. And when you got to the
52:49um exterior part of the house in front
52:51of the kitchen
53:02You stopped at that point?
53:04Yes.
53:05Your Honor, I have photograph uh asked
53:06to be marked People's 138 to be shown to
53:08counsel.
53:16Do you see the location you're talking
53:18about when you said you walked toward
53:20the kitchen area? Yes.
53:23I'm going to use my uh the laser light.
53:25Ask that you direct it if you can see
53:27the screen, sir.
53:29See the light? Yes, I do. Okay, tell him
53:31tell it where to go.
53:33Okay, go up
53:35to the right.
53:36To the right more.
53:38Up.
53:39And go about 2 inches to the right.
53:42And that's the door. All right, that
53:44location right there?
53:45Yes.
53:46Can we mark that with a telestrator?
53:48Okay, I'm going to ask if that area be
53:49marked with a telestrator.
53:53Make sure it's correct.
53:57That right?
53:58Correct. Yes, that's the door.
54:00Thank you.
54:01We ask that this be marked People's
54:02138A. 138A. Thank you, Your Honor.
54:08When you got to that location, what did
54:10you do?
54:12When I got to the door Yes.
54:13I turned. Okay, and what did you see? Um
54:16O.J.
54:17And where was he? At the driver's side
54:20door of the Rolls.
54:24Did you say anything to him? No.
54:27What did you do?
54:30I looked and said, "I'll eat in my
54:32room."
54:34And what did you do then?
54:36I took off to my room to eat through the
54:39path.
54:40Through through the path to my room. Did
54:42he make any response to you when you
54:43said, "I'll eat in my room"? Oh, no,
54:45that was in my mind, "I'll eat in my
54:46room." You didn't say that out loud?
54:47No, no, in my head I was going, "I'll
54:49eat in my room." Okay. Sorry.
54:51Did he say anything to you?
54:53No. Did you say anything to him? No.
54:56So, after the car was parked
54:59and you got out and walked to the
55:00kitchen door, did you have any
55:01conversation with Mr. Simpson? No.
55:03And he said nothing to you? No.
55:06Okay, when you say you walked through
55:07that path
55:08you talking about the path uh Describe
55:11for us the path you're talking about. I
55:13Part of it's on the picture. Mhm.
55:15That's the driveway you can see where
55:17the path goes and it comes around by the
55:19um the hedges here that you can barely
55:22see it in the shot, but that's the path.
55:37People's next in order 139, Your Honor,
55:39photograph to be shown to counsel.
55:48Can you see the beginning of the path in
55:50this photograph, sir? Yes.
55:52Can you indicate to us where it is?
55:54Yeah, right where the right angle is,
55:55right there is the the path. Okay.
55:58Going to ask that it be marked with a
55:59telestrator.
56:05Yes.
56:08Is that it? Yes, that's the path. Mark
56:10People's 139A. 139A. Thank you, Your
56:16You print.
56:20What happened next?
56:23Okay, so I I took the food and I walked
56:25on the path to my room.
56:28And I I started eating the food and I
56:29made a phone call.
56:31Now, did you make that phone call
56:32immediately when you got back to your
56:34room or did you do a couple things
56:35first? Do you remember?
56:36Pretty pretty much uh right away I did.
56:38I made it
56:40you know, within a minute, I think.
56:42It was pretty quick.
56:44Pretty sure.
56:46So, you
56:48after you walked back to your room
56:50you uh entered within a minute, you made
56:52a phone call? Yeah. Who did you call? I
56:54called Tom again.
56:55The same Tom that you called earlier
56:57before you left for McDonald's?
56:58Right, cuz Tom had called me back and I
56:59called him back.
57:01And do you recall exactly what time it
57:03was that you called him?
57:06It was about
57:07after we got back, 9:40, 9:45.
57:13And would it refresh your recollection
57:15as to the exact time you called him
57:17you saw your phone bill?
57:19Yes.
57:37Mr. Kaelin, if you could uh
57:40I'm going to show you first. Okay.
57:43Okay. That's second entry? Yes.
57:45All right.
57:46Just look at that for a minute.
57:53Okay, you already described the first
57:54entry on June the 12th here at 9:03,
57:56that first call you made to Tom in San
57:58Diego.
57:59You see below that on June the 12th at
58:019:37, indicated in military time as
58:0321:37 you 9:37 p.m. a call to San Diego
58:08area code 619? Yes. And again, does that
58:10appear to be the same phone number that
58:12you called
58:13uh some minutes earlier that night?
58:15Yes.
58:16And that call lasted for approximately
58:18this second call lasted for
58:19approximately 7 minutes.
58:21Does that comport with your memory of
58:23the time and the duration of the call
58:25you made to Tom?
58:25Yes.
58:26Now, that call
58:28that you made at 9:37
58:31how long was that made after you saw the
58:33defendant standing at his car?
58:36I
58:37pretty
58:38quickly cuz I was eating my food, I
58:39think, on the phone, so right after.
58:42Right after I Yeah, within a minute.
58:44Minute to two.
58:45A minute to 2 minutes?
58:47Is that a yes?
58:48Yes, so it's yes.
58:51All right, for the record, the witness
58:53and counsel were referring to
58:55the board People's 135. Thank you, Your
58:57Honor.
58:58Um perhaps now if I could um let the
59:00jury see it.
1:00:03Thanks, Dana.
1:00:04After you completed that phone call to
1:00:06Tom
1:00:09possibly 9:44 then, what happened next?
1:00:14I wanted to uh
1:00:16type up some um
1:00:18like resumes.
1:00:20And there was that it's an office area
1:00:22with a typewriter.
1:00:24That office area that you described was
1:00:25a part of the area you lived in? Yes.
1:00:29And what did you do in that regard?
1:00:31Well, this typewriter and I uh
1:00:34got the paper and I plugged it in and it
1:00:36made a noise.
1:00:38But it wasn't working, so I tried other
1:00:39outlets and then then it wasn't making a
1:00:41noise anymore and I tried outlet after
1:00:43outlet.
1:00:44And I
1:00:45kind of gave up. Okay, and how long
1:00:47period of time did you do that?
1:00:50For like
1:00:51after finding everything about 15 to 20
1:00:53minutes. Okay.
1:00:55So,
1:00:56can you tell us approximately what time
1:00:57it was when you gave up on the
1:00:59typewriter?
1:01:00I like about
1:01:0210:10 or so.
1:01:06And what did you do then?
1:01:08I I I made a phone call.
1:01:11And what and what phone call who'd you
1:01:14call? Uh another friend uh Rachel.
1:01:17Rachel what? Rachel Ferraro.
1:01:22What time was it approximately when you
1:01:23placed that call, sir?
1:01:26About like 10:10.
1:01:29Now, at the time you made that that call
1:01:31to Rachel Ferraro, can you tell us was
1:01:33the lights on in your bedroom? In my
1:01:35bedroom? Yes. Yes.
1:01:42There is a um
1:01:45You indicated there's a bathroom that's
1:01:46attached as part of your living
1:01:47quarters, right? Yes.
1:02:09Let me show you photograph that's been
1:02:10previously marked as one People's 129B.
1:02:25Excuse me.
1:02:33Do you see the area that you earlier
1:02:35indicated was the bathroom?
1:02:37Yes, I do.
1:02:38Does that area have a window? Yes, it
1:02:41does. And where does that window face?
1:02:44Uh
1:02:45south.
1:02:47South? The
1:02:48It would face the the back area to the
1:02:50neighbors.
1:02:52And when you say south, is there a
1:02:53pathway that runs
1:02:55alongside that wall?
1:02:57Yes.
1:03:01And that south pathway does it
1:03:04is that the border or the end of the
1:03:06property?
1:03:07Yes.
1:03:08To the south of that walkway, is there
1:03:10any kind of fence? Yes.
1:03:14And what kind of fence?
1:03:17I'm pretty sure it's um
1:03:18iron.
1:03:20Iron fence.
1:03:43Let me show you photograph that's been
1:03:44previously marked as 68A.
1:03:49Okay, do you recognize the location
1:03:50shown there? Yes.
1:03:52Tell us what it is. Okay, that would be
1:03:53the the back of uh
1:03:55the room of my room and that's the uh
1:03:57neighbor's yard on the right of the
1:03:59fence and that's the pathway the
1:04:01walkway. Do you see something jutting
1:04:03out over the walkway, sir, that jutting
1:04:05out of the wall? Yes, I do. What is
1:04:07that? That's an air conditioner.
1:04:09And what where does the front of that
1:04:10air conditioner go? In my room.
1:04:14Now, when you say that's the wall of
1:04:16your the outside wall of your room, I'm
1:04:19going to ask that
1:04:21I'm going to ask you to direct the arrow
1:04:25to point to what wall you're talking
1:04:27about.
1:04:29Okay, um
1:04:31it's it's real dark from where I'm
1:04:33sitting. I can't but I looks like it's
1:04:35the pathway's there. I can tell that's
1:04:37and that's the arrow's on the wall.
1:04:41Okay, keep
1:04:43Tell the arrow tell the tell the arrow.
1:04:45To go where to the air conditioner or
1:04:47just to the wall?
1:04:48Okay, just if you go right you're on
1:04:50Okay, go to the air conditioner with the
1:04:52arrow. Okay, that's the the wall.
1:04:54You're on the wall. Okay.
1:04:56And
1:04:58where does your wall end?
1:05:03Well, there I can't tell from that shot
1:05:04where it ends. There's an office that
1:05:06leads to the main house. Okay. But that
1:05:08is the wall that is the outside of your
1:05:10room, sir?
1:05:10Yes, it is.
1:05:13Could that be 68B? It can be 68B1.
1:05:1968B1.
1:05:20Noted.
1:05:22A1. A1.
1:05:24Once Excuse me. People's 68A1.
1:05:28Thank you.
1:05:33Now, that wall, sir, that the arrow is
1:05:35pointing to, is that wall the outside of
1:05:39the wall that your bed would be placed
1:05:41against? Yes.
1:05:57Now, we were talking earlier about the
1:05:59window that's inside the bathroom of
1:06:01your residence.
1:06:03Can you see out
1:06:05Can you when you look out that window,
1:06:07sir, are you able to see
1:06:09uh the area that would be to the right
1:06:11of the air conditioner of the south
1:06:13pathway?
1:06:14Not really. How much of a view of the
1:06:16south pathway can you get from that
1:06:18bathroom window?
1:06:20You can you can see out just
1:06:23in front of you.
1:06:25So, you can't see to the right or the
1:06:26left? Well, I guess if you if you if you
1:06:29wanted to like stick your head or
1:06:31something out.
1:06:32But the the window itself you you can't.
1:06:34It's a
1:06:36I'm sorry.
1:06:36turn crank handle and it's the window
1:06:38goes like that, so
1:06:39you can't if it's blocks if it turns you
1:06:41can't really see to the right because it
1:06:44blocks things. Okay.
1:06:46So, the the window opens out from left
1:06:48to right?
1:06:52Yeah, it does.
1:06:54And can you crank it all the way to the
1:06:56right so that it would go flush against
1:06:58the uh
1:06:59I don't think so. I don't think you can.
1:07:03While you were talking to Rachel on the
1:07:04phone, where were you in your room?
1:07:07I was leaning against the bed. Okay.
1:07:09Look at your monitor, sir.
1:07:11When you say you were leaning against
1:07:13the bed
1:07:14Okay, you see
1:07:16the bed? Yes.
1:07:18There's a the headboard? Yes. Okay,
1:07:20right there kind of So, take the arrow
1:07:22go straight ahead.
1:07:25Right there.
1:07:26Was your back up against that headboard?
1:07:28Yes.
1:07:32People's
1:07:36All right, Miss Clark, you have much
1:07:37more with this exhibit I need to change
1:07:38court reporters.
1:07:40Uh I think I do.
1:07:42So, All right.
1:07:44Miss could this be marked People's
1:07:45129B1, Your Honor? 129B1.
1:07:48All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're
1:07:49going to take our morning recess. Please
1:07:51remember my admonitions to you. Don't
1:07:53discuss the case amongst yourselves or
1:07:54form any opinions about the case.
1:07:56Don't allow anybody to communicate with
1:07:58you. Do not conduct any deliberations
1:07:59until the matter has been submitted to
1:08:01you. Uh Mr. Kaylan, this is a 15-minute
1:08:03recess. You are to return in 15 minutes.
1:08:05All right, we'll stand in recess. Thank
1:08:06you.
1:08:07We've been rejoined by all the members
1:08:09of our jury panel. Mr. Brian Kaylan is
1:08:11on the witness stand
1:08:13under direct examination by Miss Clark.
1:08:15Good morning again, Mr. Kaylan.
1:08:16Morning. You're reminded you're still
1:08:17under oath, sir. Miss Clark, you may
1:08:19continue. Thank you, Your Honor.
1:08:29All right, you indicated that you
1:08:32placed a phone call to Rachel Ferraro at
1:08:34about 10:10 p.m. Yes. And then during
1:08:37that phone call, you were seated on the
1:08:39bed with your back up against that
1:08:40headboard. Yes.
1:08:42During that phone call, sir, did
1:08:43something unusual occur?
1:08:45Yes. And what was that? I I heard a
1:08:48thumping noise.
1:08:50How many thumps did you hear? Objection.
1:08:52Leading. Overruled.
1:08:55It's
1:08:56Sorry. Yes. Three.
1:08:58Can you demonstrate for us how loud it
1:08:59was?
1:09:01Somewhat, yes. Go ahead.
1:09:04Here. Yeah, go ahead.
1:09:09And where did that noise seem to be
1:09:10coming from?
1:09:11From the back of the wall.
1:09:13From behind you where you were sitting?
1:09:15Right, from behind the wall from where I
1:09:16was sitting.
1:09:19Did you notice anything occur in your
1:09:21room as a result of those thumps on the
1:09:23wall? Yes. What? There's a picture that
1:09:26moved.
1:09:28And where is that picture, sir? It's not
1:09:30in the shot. Can you tell us,
1:09:32give us some idea? Do you want me to
1:09:34arrow to move? No, that arrow can stay
1:09:36there. Okay, it would be See this
1:09:39um
1:09:40cap not cap um
1:09:42next to the bed,
1:09:44the the dresser.
1:09:47Yes.
1:09:47If you would write go straight above it
1:09:50by the headboard.
1:09:51It's right above that.
1:09:53On the uh
1:09:58All right, let me uh
1:10:01show a photograph to counsel for a
1:10:03moment.
1:10:19All right, I have a photograph to show
1:10:20the counsel next in order people's 140.
1:10:24People's 140.
1:10:29Showing you people's 140, sir. Can you
1:10:31please look at your monitor?
1:10:34Yes.
1:10:35Can you tell us if you see the location
1:10:36where the picture was? Yeah, the
1:10:38picture's right there.
1:10:39It's uh
1:10:40Was that the picture that was on your
1:10:42wall on the uh night of June the 12th? I
1:10:44think that's the same picture. And was
1:10:46it in that location? Yes.
1:10:49Okay, and for the record, the witness is
1:10:50gesturing there's only uh one picture on
1:10:52his bedroom wall.
1:10:54Right.
1:10:56And what happened with that picture when
1:10:58the thumps occurred?
1:10:59Uh the picture tilted
1:11:03um from uh
1:11:06would be right to left.
1:11:08That
1:11:09The picture moved?
1:11:10Yes, it did.
1:11:12At that point that you heard the thumps
1:11:13on the wall, sir, approximately how long
1:11:15had you been on the phone with Rachel
1:11:16Ferraro?
1:11:19Uh about a half hour.
1:11:22And so approximately what time was it
1:11:24when you heard the thumps on the wall?
1:11:28At about
1:11:2910:40.
1:11:33Is that exact, 10:40?
1:11:36Well, what I remember I didn't look at
1:11:37the clock, but about 10:40.
1:11:40Do you recall previously testifying that
1:11:42it was 10:40 to 10:45?
1:11:46Yes.
1:11:47And is that correct? Yes.
1:11:53So at approximately 10:40 to 10:45
1:11:56five, excuse me, sir, when you heard the
1:11:57thumps
1:11:59and you saw the picture move, what did
1:12:01you do?
1:12:03Well, I was on the phone still and I was
1:12:05talking to Rachel and I thought I said
1:12:07to Rachel if I asked her I said, "Do we
1:12:08just have an earthquake?"
1:12:12Do those thumps alarm you, sir?
1:12:14After she said we didn't have one, yes.
1:12:18And why were you alarmed? Well, if it
1:12:20wasn't that, then I thought there was,
1:12:22you know, someone back there.
1:12:25Someone back there and where would there
1:12:26be? There is behind the wall
1:12:29on the uh path
1:12:31that we showed before.
1:12:43And that path um
1:12:44that we showed before, that's the south
1:12:46pathway that runs along the outside of
1:12:48your exterior wall? Yes.
1:12:54Is that the pathway you're referring to?
1:12:55Yes, it is. That you thought someone was
1:12:57on when you heard the thumps? Yes.
1:13:09Now, if you would, sir, I'll go back to
1:13:10the interior.
1:13:19Air conditioner you've earlier
1:13:20identified, sir. Yes, it is.
1:13:22At the back of the one that's in that
1:13:23goes into your room.
1:13:30Showing you people's
1:13:32129B.
1:13:34Can you tell us where on this photograph
1:13:36your air conditioner is? Um right in
1:13:39front of that lamp.
1:13:40On the
1:13:41right side of the bed.
1:13:44For the record, the witness is pointing
1:13:45to uh standing lamp
1:13:48that would be um as you face the bed to
1:13:50the left side of the bed and it's that
1:13:53graded area
1:13:55right above the lamp.
1:13:57Yes, it is.
1:14:00Where in relationship to that air
1:14:01conditioner did you hear the sound of
1:14:03the thumps?
1:14:06The the thumps came from behind the
1:14:08wall. Exactly where I don't know, but I
1:14:10know it was behind the wall within a you
1:14:12know, a few feet of the air conditioner.
1:14:14Okay.
1:14:16And is that uh
1:14:17are those Is that wall covering is that
1:14:19wood paneling or is that wallpaper?
1:14:21That's wood.
1:14:34All right, when Rachel told you that it
1:14:36was not an earthquake you became alarmed
1:14:38thinking someone was back there. What
1:14:39happened next?
1:14:41Well, I was on the phone with her and I
1:14:42told her that I was going to check on
1:14:44it.
1:14:48And what How long did you speak to her
1:14:51after you heard the thumps on the wall?
1:14:56You know, two to three minutes.
1:15:00And when you said you were going to go
1:15:02and check on it, what did you intend to
1:15:03do?
1:15:04Well, that
1:15:06See the dresser right there next to the
1:15:07bed? On the top drawer I have like a
1:15:09little light flashlight.
1:15:11I was going to take that light and
1:15:14look behind there.
1:15:16Look behind where?
1:15:17Behind the patch the path. The path that
1:15:19you've earlier identified? Yes.
1:15:23How did you feel about going back there
1:15:25onto that little pathway?
1:15:28Scared. Why?
1:15:32Cuz there could be someone back there
1:15:33and
1:15:35I just had a little flashlight. Okay.
1:15:37And what was that pathway like? Well,
1:15:39it's dark
1:15:40and there's leaves.
1:15:43It's very narrow.
1:15:51How well lit it was You said it was
1:15:52dark? Yes.
1:15:54And you had What was the size of that
1:15:56flashlight you had?
1:15:59This size.
1:16:01It was a little you know, thicker
1:16:02around, but it was about that same
1:16:05length. Okay.
1:16:06For the record, the witness is holding
1:16:07up a pen.
1:16:09Yes.
1:16:15All right, you did not go to look
1:16:17through the bathroom window. No.
1:16:20Your intention was to go around to that
1:16:21south pathway? Yes.
1:16:26Did it even occur to you to look through
1:16:27the bathroom window?
1:16:29Well, we'll
1:16:31You can answer.
1:16:32No, it never did.
1:16:35All right, so you told Rachel that you
1:16:37were going to go back there and check
1:16:38out the noise. Yes. And what did you do
1:16:40next?
1:16:41Okay, I hung up the phone
1:16:43and I got the flashlight and I walked
1:16:45the pathway, the the front pathway
1:16:49out of my front door
1:16:50to the driveway.
1:16:53Okay.
1:16:56Now, when you went to the driveway
1:17:00uh you said you took a pathway
1:17:02and that pathway led you through what?
1:17:05You go by the pool
1:17:07and when you go by the pool you go to
1:17:08the side of the house, the the side that
1:17:10would face Ashford
1:17:12and then you go and you hit the
1:17:13driveway.
1:17:26Can I ask you to indicate on people's 66
1:17:28the path that you took?
1:17:30Okay. From your room.
1:17:38All right, you can step down, Mr. Kelly.
1:17:56All right, if you would, please on
1:17:58people's 66 please indicate the path
1:18:00that you took. Okay.
1:18:02I came out of the doors
1:18:03steps up
1:18:05there
1:18:07and this is the path.
1:18:09For the record, the witness is tracing
1:18:11the pathway
1:18:13uh that goes through the lawn area along
1:18:16Ashford Street.
1:18:18Yes, now the driveway.
1:18:19Thank you, Ron.
1:18:21The
1:18:22Okay, you indicated that you heard the
1:18:23thumps at 9:40 to 9:45.
1:18:27Not at that time, it was 10. I'm sorry.
1:18:3010:40 to 10:45. Thank you, sir.
1:18:33And you were on you remained on the
1:18:35phone with Rachel Ferraro for another
1:18:36two to three minutes. Yes.
1:18:39So approximately what time was it that
1:18:41you exited your room to go out to the
1:18:43pathway?
1:18:46So it was about
1:18:49two to three minutes after that time,
1:18:5010:43 to 10:44.
1:18:55And when you went out to the pathway
1:18:58did you where you went out on the lawn
1:19:00area?
1:19:01Yeah, but I stayed on this this path.
1:19:03All right, and what did you see when you
1:19:04were on that path?
1:19:06On this path? Yes.
1:19:09Nothing. I didn't see anything until I
1:19:10got to the driveway.
1:19:12When you got to the driveway area where
1:19:13the path meets the driveway, what did
1:19:15you see? I saw the limousine.
1:19:17And where was that limousine? It was
1:19:19right behind the gate
1:19:21on Ashford. Was it facing into that
1:19:23Ashford gate?
1:19:24Yes.
1:19:25Could you see whether anyone was inside
1:19:26it? No.
1:19:28Did you go to open the gate for the
1:19:29limousine driver? No.
1:19:31You can take your seat.
1:19:45Now, can you tell us, sir, whether
1:19:46Excuse me, Ms. Clark, do we need the
1:19:48poster? Yes, we're going to use it
1:19:49again.
1:19:50Very shortly. Okay.
1:19:57Now, can you tell us, sir, whether or
1:19:58not the headlights of that limousine
1:20:00were on?
1:20:01I don't think they were on.
1:20:04So, was it dark in that area? Yes.
1:20:07And can you tell us, sir, whether the
1:20:08driveway was dark?
1:20:10Yes, there's just these there's little
1:20:11lights uh barely that are very dim. I
1:20:15think one or two of those were on by the
1:20:17driveway, but dark. Where on the
1:20:19driveway are those lights?
1:20:23You can show us if you
1:20:25Things I remember they were like
1:20:27here, maybe maybe one here.
1:20:30Okay.
1:20:31Why don't you want to do that one more
1:20:32time so counsel can see you?
1:20:35If I remember they were like here, left
1:20:38light here.
1:20:40Maybe there.
1:20:42For the record, the witness has pointed
1:20:43to the edge of the driveway, that would
1:20:45be the left um border of the driveway
1:20:48uh just below the tree over which is
1:20:51written gate control box, and then below
1:20:54that to the left of the other tree
1:20:57uh
1:20:59on that same edge of the driveway.
1:21:01The left edge.
1:21:02And you go ahead, you can sit down.
1:21:10So, you indicated those are dim lights.
1:21:12Yes. And the driveway was basically in
1:21:14darkness. Yes.
1:21:16And you indicated you did not let the
1:21:18limousine driver in.
1:21:20No. Why not?
1:21:22I I thought everything was taken care
1:21:23of. I I didn't think of
1:21:25of letting him in because he could
1:21:28get a a buzz in.
1:21:31What do you mean you thought it was
1:21:32taken care of?
1:21:33Well, I I
1:21:34I have a my phone doesn't ring to the
1:21:36gate, so I thought if anything the
1:21:38the limo guy would know what to do, what
1:21:40was going on. I didn't know. I thought
1:21:42he was there. Did you think the
1:21:43defendant was going to let him in? Yes.
1:21:49Sustain. You're to disregard.
1:21:51I'm asking for his state of mind, Your
1:21:52Honor.
1:21:53As to why he didn't Calls for
1:21:55speculation. Did he think that this
1:21:57defendant was going to do something?
1:21:59I object to calling it speculation.
1:22:00Proceed.
1:22:01Can you explain to us why you did not
1:22:04let the limo driver in?
1:22:07What were you thinking?
1:22:09About What What led you not to let him
1:22:11in?
1:22:12Because I thought someone had talked to
1:22:13him and that's why he was out there.
1:22:14There was a reason that he was waiting
1:22:16there.
1:22:17I didn't
1:22:18you know, I
1:22:20I didn't know why he wasn't in, but I
1:22:22didn't question it.
1:22:24Did you expect
1:22:25What What What were you expecting?
1:22:27Objection, Your Honor.
1:22:30This is subsequent conduct, Your Honor.
1:22:34You can ask the question.
1:22:35Oh.
1:22:37There's a a phone, so if there was a
1:22:40limo driver the they would the gate
1:22:42would open up, he'd be buzzed in. Did
1:22:43you think the defendant was home?
1:22:45Objection, Your Honor.
1:22:46Overruled.
1:22:48Calls for speculation.
1:22:50Overruled.
1:22:52Answer.
1:22:53Did I Yes.
1:22:55Next question.
1:23:14Now, approximately what time was it when
1:23:15you think you saw the limo driver? Then
1:23:17excuse me, the limousine parked at the
1:23:19Ashford gate.
1:23:22Um about 10:50. Mhm.
1:23:25Okay.
1:23:27When you passed by the back of the house
1:23:29to go out onto that lawn area, take that
1:23:31path down to the driveway, did you
1:23:33notice whether there were any lights on
1:23:35in the house?
1:23:36Um I thought the lights were on upstairs
1:23:40and not down.
1:23:41If I remember.
1:23:43Did it seem to be dark downstairs?
1:23:45Yes.
1:23:47From my my recollection it was dark. And
1:23:49you thought there was a light on
1:23:50upstairs? Yes.
1:23:56Let me back up for a minute.
1:23:58You indicated that
1:24:00you heard the thumps on the wall at
1:24:02approximately 10:40 to 10:45.
1:24:06Before hearing the thumps, you were
1:24:07talking on the phone to Rachel?
1:24:10Yes.
1:24:11After hearing the thumps, were you still
1:24:12talking on the phone to Rachel? Yes.
1:24:15Were you listening to hear footsteps at
1:24:17either time?
1:24:18I I did not.
1:24:21Do you know whether you're able to hear
1:24:22footsteps from inside your room if
1:24:24someone's walking on the south pathway?
1:24:27I I don't I I don't think so.
1:24:33Um Ms. Clark, when you Do we need 66
1:24:35anymore?
1:24:36We do.
1:24:37Right now. All right.
1:24:39You saw the limousine parked at the
1:24:41Ashford gate.
1:24:42Yes, I did.
1:24:42You did not let the limo driver in.
1:24:44What Where did you go? What did you do?
1:24:47I checked on the the noise.
1:24:49Where did Can you show us on this People
1:24:5166 what you did?
1:25:04Okay, so um
1:25:06I had the flashlight
1:25:08and the limo was here, so I
1:25:11I started walking this way.
1:25:14And I had the light on and I went
1:25:18This is a gate here.
1:25:20That's uh
1:25:21I can pick up the gate. You can pick it
1:25:23up so it's not working. So, I kind of
1:25:25leave it against the tree and I went
1:25:26down just a bit and
1:25:29the pin light you know, the light was
1:25:31pretty dim. I looked a little bit and
1:25:33then I came back. Okay. For the record,
1:25:35the witness has indicated he walked
1:25:37south on the driveway over to the garage
1:25:39area, made a left at the corner of the
1:25:41garage and walked in on that south
1:25:44pathway a short distance.
1:25:47Yes.
1:25:49Okay, as far as you got on this on that
1:25:50south pathway, sir, were you able to see
1:25:52the area
1:25:54uh the ground area around the air
1:25:55conditioner in your room?
1:25:59And it Why did you stop on the pathway
1:26:01where you did?
1:26:02Just did.
1:26:03I couldn't see. I was
1:26:06I just stopped.
1:26:08Why?
1:26:10You know, I was scared, but
1:26:12uh
1:26:13that's it. You were scared? No. Okay.
1:26:17And so you backed out again?
1:26:19Yes, I did. Where did you go then?
1:26:22I went back out. Okay. And
1:26:26the limo was still there.
1:26:28I thought he eventually let this guy in.
1:26:30So, I went to the gate control box.
1:26:33It's a button.
1:26:34Pressed
1:26:36and opened up.
1:26:37Okay.
1:26:37So,
1:26:39you walked down the driveway around the
1:26:40garage to the south pathway
1:26:43came back out walked back up the
1:26:45driveway and the limo driver the limo
1:26:47limousine was still outside the Ashford
1:26:49gate.
1:26:49Yes.
1:26:51When you said you went to the gate
1:26:52control box, you pointed to an area on
1:26:53the diagram People 66. Is that where
1:26:56it's indicated by that tree? Yes.
1:26:59And then did the gate open? Yes, it did.
1:27:02And what happened next?
1:27:04Okay, the gate opened and he drove in.
1:27:09And there's a dog.
1:27:11I told him to watch it.
1:27:14Chachi, the dog,
1:27:16went here.
1:27:17And the limo driver parked here.
1:27:20All right, Chachi the dog, who's that?
1:27:22Chachi's a chow.
1:27:25What color? Black.
1:27:27And who does he belong to?
1:27:29To O.J.
1:27:30And when the limo driver pulled up,
1:27:32where was Chachi?
1:27:34Chachi was kind of was like laying right
1:27:37here, sort of by the box that he could
1:27:39have been hit.
1:27:41So,
1:27:42I said, "Chachi, move."
1:27:46So, when the limo driver pulled in,
1:27:48Chachi was still lying there on the
1:27:49driveway by the gate control box?
1:27:51Yes.
1:27:52And you had to get him to move.
1:27:54Yes. Did he bark? No. Did he get
1:27:56excited? No. Where did Where did you put
1:27:58him? Well, he goes in the spot he like
1:28:00lays here. And for the record, the
1:28:02witness is indicating the corner where
1:28:05the
1:28:05of grass where the driveway meets the
1:28:08path going through the Ashford side of
1:28:09the lawn.
1:28:14And where did the limo driver go?
1:28:16Right here. To the front door area? Yes.
1:28:19Okay, for the record, the witness is
1:28:20pointing to the area of the driveway in
1:28:21front of the entrance.
1:28:23And what happened next?
1:28:26Okay, the limo driver
1:28:28got out of the car.
1:28:31I'm
1:28:32pretty sure I said hello.
1:28:35And um
1:28:39the exact dialogue I don't know. It was
1:28:41um Okay, wait. Why don't you take your
1:28:43seat, sir?
1:28:47All right, Ms. Clark, do we need 66
1:28:49We will again, but I'll take it down for
1:28:51now. All right.
1:28:58You want to just leave it there down so
1:28:59that I can see the jury and counsel
1:29:02can see.
1:29:05All right.
1:29:09All right, when you went around
1:29:11the uh you can
1:29:13When you went around the south pathway
1:29:15what was the You went You said you went
1:29:16down the driveway around the garage to
1:29:18that south pathway. Why did you do that?
1:29:20Why did I do it?
1:29:21Yeah. I was going to investigate that
1:29:23noise. The thumps? Yes.
1:29:30All right, when the limo driver
1:29:34got out of the car, did you have a
1:29:35conversation with him? Yes.
1:29:37What did you say?
1:29:40Well, I know I said asked him about the
1:29:42uh
1:29:43if we had an earthquake.
1:29:46And uh he said no, not that I'm aware
1:29:48of. I've been sitting there and I there
1:29:50was no I didn't feel anything move.
1:29:52And um
1:29:54he had mentioned that he was coming up
1:29:55from Redondo.
1:29:59And
1:30:03I don't know if I
1:30:05what I remember about if I mentioned
1:30:07about oversleeping or not. I said it did
1:30:09OJ oversleep or if he said it that he
1:30:11overslept, but that came up.
1:30:13And I said, "Oh, he's got a flight to
1:30:15catch."
1:30:20And You were worried that he was going
1:30:22to be late or what?
1:30:23Yeah, that he was going to miss his
1:30:24flight. Okay.
1:30:26Now
1:30:27at that particular point in time, were
1:30:29you what were you thinking about in
1:30:30terms of the thumps? Was that still in
1:30:32your mind?
1:30:32Oh, yes.
1:30:33How were you feeling about that? Well, I
1:30:35was I was going to check on it again and
1:30:37I felt better that there was someone
1:30:38there. Mhm.
1:30:39Were you still afraid or nervous or
1:30:41excited about that? Yes.
1:30:43I was I was still there, but you know, I
1:30:45had
1:30:46driver was there. I mean, I was telling
1:30:48about the noise that I was going to
1:30:49check it on it again. I told him I heard
1:30:50this noise and I heard this thump and
1:30:53uh I'm going to just go back there and
1:30:54check again.
1:30:57All right.
1:30:58And so after you told him about that,
1:30:59what did you do?
1:31:01Well,
1:31:03I know that uh at one point also there's
1:31:05the golf bag was out in the front. I
1:31:07loaded that for him in the trunk and
1:31:10then I think I checked on the noise.
1:31:13When you say there was a golf bag out
1:31:14front, where was it? The driveway where
1:31:16he parked?
1:31:17Mhm. Right in front of the entrance.
1:31:20Um
1:31:21I don't want to lift it up again, but
1:31:22it's right in front. I'll point it out.
1:31:24It was a was it in front of the front
1:31:25door?
1:31:26In front about 10 ft in front of the
1:31:28front door. Right before the drive where
1:31:30where the drive driver would start up
1:31:32again.
1:31:34Where the driveway meets the uh
1:31:35the grass and the entrance of the uh
1:31:40I got to I have to point it.
1:31:54Go ahead.
1:31:57The driveway here there's
1:32:00like seats here. Right.
1:32:01Be right here. All right, in between the
1:32:03seats?
1:32:04In between the seats where I laid the
1:32:06same way you laid the bag.
1:32:10Okay, so what did you do with those golf
1:32:12bags after you let the limo driver in?
1:32:14Well, it was one golf bag. One golf bag.
1:32:15And I
1:32:17I put it in the trunk.
1:32:19All right, and then what did you do? And
1:32:21then I think I checked on that noise.
1:32:23And tell Could you show us where you
1:32:24went?
1:32:27Okay, I want to be in here again? Okay,
1:32:29what what is this indicating south on
1:32:30the driveway? South of the driveway and
1:32:32I I said, you know, I told him about the
1:32:34noise. I said then I tried to get Chachi
1:32:35to come with me and I and said, "Chachi,
1:32:38come."
1:32:40And he did.
1:32:42So uh
1:32:44my reaction to it. So I went back there.
1:32:47Okay, and you went down by the garage to
1:32:49the same area again?
1:32:51Is that yes?
1:32:52yes, but I went a little bit further.
1:32:53Okay, can you show us sir how far you
1:32:55went this time? Okay, so the first gate
1:32:56is here.
1:32:58Right, indicating
1:32:59um
1:33:00Kind of right here there's a tree that
1:33:02it leans up against sort of and it's
1:33:03right there. Okay, there's a portion on
1:33:05this diagram where the garage on the
1:33:07south side of it is extended
1:33:10um when you first hit the garage area
1:33:12and the witness is indicating the corner
1:33:15the leftmost the rightmost corner of
1:33:16that um
1:33:19outcropping. Right.
1:33:21Okay, is that where the first gate is?
1:33:23That's the first gate. Okay, did you go
1:33:25through it?
1:33:25Yes.
1:33:27This time I went a little bit further
1:33:28and there's a second gate, but I didn't
1:33:30go beyond that. You went up to the
1:33:32second gate?
1:33:32I went up to about where the podium is.
1:33:34The second gate with the flashlight.
1:33:36Okay.
1:33:37About
1:33:38You 3 ft from the second gate. 3 ft
1:33:41behind the second gate you stopped?
1:33:42Yes. And where would that be on the
1:33:44diagram?
1:33:48Well, this is the entire garage and this
1:33:50is the
1:33:51I guess the second gate would be about
1:33:52here. For the record, the witness is
1:33:54indicating the area where there the
1:33:56middle yellow the yellow arrow is.
1:34:01Okay, and you
1:34:03Um
1:34:04Yeah.
1:34:05It'd be to the as you face the diagram
1:34:07to the right of the arrow mark BK.
1:34:10And you stopped 3 ft before that? Yeah,
1:34:13about 3 ft in front of it. Okay. Trying
1:34:15the light. And what were you able to
1:34:16see?
1:34:17Well, it was dark. I I really didn't see
1:34:19much. The beam was
1:34:22you know, I could see up to about the
1:34:24dark concrete right there. Okay, for the
1:34:26record, the witness is indicating 10 ft.
1:34:29I'm giving him 8.
1:34:30than 10 ft, but 8? 7. That's it. 7 7 7.
1:34:34Can we compromise? Compromise on this. 7
1:34:378 Okay. For the record, the witness
1:34:39indicated approximately 7 to 8 ft in
1:34:42distance.
1:34:42Right.
1:34:44And so were you able to see the area of
1:34:46um the walkway that was right behind
1:34:48your room? No.
1:34:50Was that in darkness? Yes.
1:34:53After you and you stopped at that point?
1:34:55Yes, I did.
1:34:56Why?
1:34:57Well, I figured I'd just give up.
1:34:59I didn't want to investigate anymore.
1:35:01Why not?
1:35:02I just I did. I don't know. I wasn't I
1:35:05was just I'm scared, but not scared and
1:35:07I limo driver was there and I just ended
1:35:09up going back.
1:35:11Were you still afraid of what might be
1:35:12back there? Well, I
1:35:14I wanted to still know what was back
1:35:15there. I was going to investigate more,
1:35:17but
1:35:18I I stopped there and I was kind of like
1:35:21this lousy flashlight and my mind was
1:35:22going to see if we had a better
1:35:23flashlight. You know, I was going to go
1:35:25up to the driver
1:35:27to talk to him.
1:35:28So did you turn back at that point?
1:35:31I did. Where did you go?
1:35:32Back to the front.
1:35:34Back turned around to the front of the
1:35:35driveway.
1:35:37And you went where?
1:35:39I went
1:35:40to the limo.
1:35:42Now on your way back to the limo, did
1:35:44anything draw your attention? Yes. What?
1:35:48Uh I saw there was a like a knapsack
1:35:52that was in the driveway where the
1:35:54Rolls-Royce was parked. Can you show us
1:35:56where you saw that? Well, this is the
1:35:58the spot of the Rolls-Royce
1:36:00For the record, the witness has
1:36:01indicated the southernmost portion of
1:36:04the driveway that leads out to
1:36:05Rockingham
1:36:07where there's an indentation. Yes.
1:36:09That's where the Rolls-Royce would be
1:36:11parked? That's where it would be parked,
1:36:12yeah. It'd be parked right here.
1:36:15And where did you see this small this uh
1:36:17knapsack?
1:36:17It was on the uh
1:36:19the right back tail light
1:36:22on the bottom right where the grass kind
1:36:24of would start up.
1:36:27I don't think the jury is able to see.
1:36:29Okay.
1:36:30Okay.
1:36:31Could you indicate again where you saw
1:36:32that knapsack?
1:36:33kind of like right here on the grass
1:36:37and cement and the driveway.
1:36:45I'll tell you what. I'm going to ask uh
1:36:47Can we get those uh arrows?
1:36:50I got arrows and I got dots. Pick your
1:36:52color.
1:36:53How about a dot?
1:36:54What color dot?
1:36:58What color was the knapsack, sir?
1:37:00I thought it was uh black and with a
1:37:03brown leather to it. Best I can do is
1:37:05blue. Oh, well.
1:37:06But
1:37:08No, we'll take red.
1:37:11Thank you. Take them all.
1:37:13Why did you put the dot on the diagram
1:37:15where you recall seeing the knapsack?
1:37:22I This diagram is
1:37:24it would be like right there.
1:37:27Was it actually sir on the driveway
1:37:29rather than the grass?
1:37:31Yeah.
1:37:32No, with this drawing it was closer to
1:37:35Here's the
1:37:36the Rolls-Royce
1:37:37and the light would be out, but it was
1:37:41sticking out of this drawing. It's kind
1:37:43of
1:37:43I don't know if it's exact, but it was
1:37:44on on the
1:37:46grass
1:37:47part of it, but more of the cement.
1:37:50And how big was that knapsack? It was
1:37:52like a college uh
1:37:54knapsack, I thought.
1:37:55Like the size of a book bag?
1:37:58Um
1:38:01a little
1:38:02kind of like that. The uh
1:38:05the briefcase or whatever that case is
1:38:07there. I don't want to mark the
1:38:08detective's bag, but I'm so curious, so
1:38:13Did it seem to be about the size of this
1:38:14bag? Yeah. Yeah, let's describe this
1:38:16bag. It appears to be about
1:38:19a foot and a half in length and about 1
1:38:21ft high.
1:38:23It's black and has black straps. But it
1:38:26seemed to be about Did it look like
1:38:28but that size.
1:38:29But that size.
1:38:29That's what I remember.
1:38:32Have you ever seen that bag before? No.
1:38:37And then where did you go, sir?
1:38:39Okay, then I uh
1:38:42I went back in the I was here with the
1:38:44driver and uh OJ was outside, too.
1:38:47And so
1:38:49I told him about the noise, also. Okay,
1:38:52why don't you take your seat?
1:38:58Let me ask you something, sir. Did you
1:39:00have Have you ever heard Chachi bark?
1:39:03Yeah, I've heard him bark.
1:39:05And when?
1:39:08When when the date? No, what was the
1:39:10event? I uh
1:39:12You circle it on the calendar or what?
1:39:14Um
1:39:18I think when Kato, the other dog
1:39:21Not this dog, no. Kato, the other dog,
1:39:23was over, if they play and Kato would
1:39:26start biting him and go
1:39:27and do that.
1:39:29Did you ever see him bark at strangers?
1:39:33I didn't see too many strangers there.
1:39:35It was So, it was no, he
1:39:37pretty much just friendly. Okay.
1:39:40Now, when you say Kato, the other dog,
1:39:41who are you referring to? It's Akita,
1:39:44the an Akita dog.
1:39:45Belonging to?
1:39:47To O.J., the kids. Mhm.
1:39:51And
1:39:52do you know whether the Akita named Kato
1:39:54went to live with Nicole at some point?
1:39:58Um yeah, it was living over on on Bundy
1:40:01and it would come over also.
1:40:03It was sometimes there, sometimes there,
1:40:04but mostly on Bundy. Okay.
1:40:07And did it come over by itself to
1:40:08Rockingham or did Did Nicole drive
1:40:10drove. No.
1:40:11No, it would it would come over with
1:40:13Nicole, the kids. And it would be over
1:40:15there sometimes.
1:40:16But mostly on Bundy.
1:40:24Okay, that second gate that you
1:40:25indicated on the south pathway, sir, is
1:40:27that ever kept locked?
1:40:30The The second gate in the in the back?
1:40:32Right, on the south pathway. No.
1:40:35Not Not that I remember. It was It was
1:40:36So, if you if you'd wanted to go through
1:40:37it that night, could you have opened it?
1:40:39Yes.
1:40:47And uh why was it that you were uh
1:40:49willing to go back a second time to that
1:40:52south pathway?
1:40:54I I guess
1:40:56just a little bit safer
1:40:58knowing there's a limo driver and it was
1:41:02I just did it. I just went back there.
1:41:06I thought I was being, you know
1:41:09doing a good thing if I found a
1:41:11a prowler or something.
1:41:13You indicated that uh
1:41:15the Akita named Kato uh belonged to the
1:41:18defendant.
1:41:22Did
1:41:25I don't know who it belonged to. I think
1:41:27it was every It was like Nicole's, the
1:41:29kids', and O.J.'s.
1:41:30Who bought it?
1:41:33I don't I don't know who bought it. I
1:41:34think maybe O.J. bought it. Okay.
1:41:36Did it Did it stay at Rockingham
1:41:38sometimes? Yes.
1:41:48Did you see the defendant play with that
1:41:49dog?
1:41:52Yeah, sometimes.
1:41:54How often would you see it at
1:41:55Rockingham?
1:42:00Mhm.
1:42:01Not very often, but it was it was there.
1:42:04But more as at the the Bundy with the
1:42:07with um Sydney and Justin. Mhm.
1:42:10So, I mean I can't
1:42:11It's hard to put a
1:42:13time frame. I mean, I don't know exactly
1:42:15how much
1:42:16difference in time would be.
1:42:19But you saw it at Rockingham and it It
1:42:22had been at Rockingham sometimes.
1:42:24With the children? Yes, the children
1:42:26play and and sometimes they're there
1:42:28when the children weren't there, too.
1:42:35And that dog When the children spent the
1:42:37night at Rockingham, did it spend the
1:42:38night also?
1:42:45Yeah, I'd say
1:42:46sometimes, yeah.
1:43:04All right, that knapsack that you
1:43:05indicated you saw that you thought was
1:43:07black
1:43:10It was It black? I thought I remember
1:43:11seeing like a little brown
1:43:13leather patch.
1:43:15Okay. Was that bag that knapsack Was it
1:43:19in a lit area, brightly lit, or was it
1:43:21in a dark area?
1:43:23It was
1:43:25I think it was near one of the dimmer
1:43:26lights, I thought, but it was still in a
1:43:28dark area. It was dark on that It was at
1:43:31nighttime, so.
1:43:33But it was a dark
1:43:35color.
1:43:38Now, when you first came out that
1:43:40pathway
1:43:42for the first time, when you left your
1:43:43room for the first time to go and
1:43:44investigate the source of the thumps
1:43:47Yes. You came out on the Ashford side
1:43:49lawn.
1:43:50What were you thinking?
1:43:53The first time coming out of the room
1:43:55and getting to
1:44:00Oh, well.
1:44:01The first time coming through Ashford
1:44:03and then seeing the limo? Mhm.
1:44:07What was I thinking as far as the noise?
1:44:09Right. I thought it could be someone.
1:44:11Okay.
1:44:12And were you Was your mind occupied with
1:44:14that? Yes.
1:44:19Were you looking
1:44:21Were you looking down the driveway area
1:44:22after you when you saw the limo? Did you
1:44:24look down the driveway area?
1:44:27I probably did.
1:44:30Constantly, or did you at some point you
1:44:31look at the limo? Did you look around
1:44:33you?
1:44:33Oh, yeah, I looked around.
1:44:36Excuse me, Mr. Clark, we need this uh
1:44:38diagram again. Yes.
1:44:42I I I heard the comment.
1:44:46And I heard the other comments as well.
1:44:48All right, why don't we move that until
1:44:49you're going to need it?
1:44:51It's blocking counsel's view of the
1:44:53jury.
1:45:01All right, I think you can leave that
1:45:02there.
1:45:02Yeah.
1:45:09All right, when you got back to the car
1:45:12after going out the second time to the
1:45:14south pathway said you went back towards
1:45:17the limo.
1:45:18Can you say the question again?
1:45:21After you let the limo driver into the
1:45:24property,
1:45:25you had conversation with him. You
1:45:27indicated you went back around the
1:45:28garage to the south pathway again. Yes.
1:45:31And you stopped 3 ft before the second
1:45:32gate. About, yes.
1:45:34that. And then you said you walked back
1:45:36out around the garage. You saw that uh
1:45:39dark knapsack.
1:45:41Then what did you do?
1:45:43Uh well, I'll There's three of us
1:45:45outside now.
1:45:47So, I
1:45:48You saw the defendant?
1:45:50Okay, so well, three of us, yes, so
1:45:52O.J., myself, and the driver. Where was
1:45:54he?
1:45:56Just like outside on the driveway.
1:45:59Okay. And I I think the door was open. I
1:46:01don't
1:46:02The front door I thought was open. I
1:46:04don't
1:46:05Okay. Did you have a conversation with
1:46:07the defendant when you saw him there?
1:46:09Yes. What did you say?
1:46:11Well, at some I was telling him about
1:46:13this noise I heard.
1:46:15I said, "O.J., I heard this noise and uh
1:46:17I thought it was an earthquake and I
1:46:18thought maybe someone's back there." And
1:46:19I told him I was going to investigate it
1:46:22and I had a lousy flashlight.
1:46:25And then what? And so I asked the limo
1:46:27driver
1:46:28I said, "Do Do you have a a better
1:46:29flashlight?"
1:46:30And he checked.
1:46:32And um
1:46:34he looked around, he didn't. And then I
1:46:35said, "Uh O.J., do we have a better
1:46:37flashlight?"
1:46:39And uh
1:46:41um he we When I told him about the
1:46:43noise, he was going to take one way, I
1:46:44was going to go another way, but that's
1:46:46when I said, "Well, we got this lousy
1:46:47flashlight. We need another one." And so
1:46:50he was going to go inside and check.
1:46:52And then what happened next? Okay. So,
1:46:56went inside the house, I followed behind
1:46:59and got towards the kitchen area
1:47:02and I was kind of in the front door
1:47:04entrance behind him, but not yet in the
1:47:06kitchen and it was I I didn't look, but
1:47:09he said it was that late, so we didn't
1:47:10have time and he We didn't get the
1:47:13flashlight, so he had to catch the
1:47:14flight.
1:47:16Now, at some point after you came back
1:47:19from your second trip to the south
1:47:21pathway,
1:47:23after that point, did you help to load
1:47:25bags into the car? Yeah, I I I I put a
1:47:27uh the golf bag in already and I was
1:47:29going to uh
1:47:30um go get the knapsack to put in. Okay,
1:47:33you said the knapsack. Is that the the
1:47:35dark knapsack knapsack that you saw
1:47:38on the driveway area where you indicated
1:47:40the red dog behind the Rolls-Royce? Yes.
1:47:42And did you say something to Mr. Simpson
1:47:44about that dark knapsack?
1:47:46Uh that I was going to get it? You
1:47:48offered to get it?
1:47:49Yeah.
1:47:50And what was his response?
1:47:52He'll get it.
1:47:53What did he say?
1:47:55I'll get it.
1:47:57And then what did he do?
1:47:59I didn't pay attention. I I think he got
1:48:01it.
1:48:02Did he walk in that direction? Yes.
1:48:06In the direction of where the knapsack
1:48:07was?
1:48:07Yes.
1:48:21All right, what happened next?
1:48:24After you offered to get the knapsack,
1:48:26he refused, walked towards it. What did
1:48:28you do?
1:48:31Sustained. Rephrase the question,
1:48:33please.
1:48:38You saw the defendant walk towards the
1:48:40knapsack. What did you do?
1:48:43Okay, I I was still concerned about a
1:48:44flashlight. I think that's when the
1:48:46conversation of the flashlight came in
1:48:48and after the limo driver was looking
1:48:50and I was seeing if he's finding a
1:48:51flashlight.
1:48:54Then what?
1:48:56Okay, and then
1:48:58that's when I was going to
1:49:00have myself and O.J. look behind there
1:49:03and then he had to catch his flight.
1:49:05So, I I mentioned about the kitchen.
1:49:07Did you at some point walk into the
1:49:08house with the defendant?
1:49:09Yes.
1:49:10And at what point was that?
1:49:12Right before leaving.
1:49:15And for what purpose did you walk into
1:49:16the house with him? Because we were in
1:49:18search of a flashlight.
1:49:20Where did you go inside the house? I
1:49:22walked in the front entrance.
1:49:24And when you walk in about 5 ft or so,
1:49:26you can make a right and go into the
1:49:28kitchen.
1:49:29So, I got in as far as like
1:49:32a foot maybe in the kitchen. He was in
1:49:34the kitchen and You were in the kitchen
1:49:36and where was the defendant?
1:49:37Well, I had a foot I was kind of in the
1:49:39hallway still.
1:49:41Kitchen and he was about
1:49:436 or 7 ft in front.
1:49:45He was inside the kitchen? Yes.
1:49:48What happened next?
1:49:50Uh he noticed the time and had to catch
1:49:52the flight. What did he say?
1:49:55He said the time.
1:49:56I said, "You got to catch your flight."
1:49:58And then what?
1:50:01He
1:50:03got in the limo.
1:50:04And he went back out of the kitchen back
1:50:07and
1:50:08was going to hop in the limo over to the
1:50:10uh airport. Okay.
1:50:12When you walked into the house with him,
1:50:13did you walk through the foyer area?
1:50:16Into the foyer.
1:50:17Yes, that's where I I stayed maybe a
1:50:22I wasn't in the kitchen area. You know
1:50:24the area. It's there and I stopped and
1:50:26then he turned around because he we
1:50:28didn't have time and then he had to
1:50:29catch the flight. Did you pause and talk
1:50:31to him in the foyer area for a moment?
1:50:34Yes.
1:50:54And when you paused and talked to him in
1:50:55the foyer area
1:50:57of the house,
1:50:59what were you talking about?
1:51:01Um he was leaving and uh it was there's
1:51:04an alarm
1:51:05and he it was asking me to set the
1:51:07alarm.
1:51:08Had he ever asked you to set the alarm
1:51:10for him before?
1:51:11Uh no. Did you know the code to set the
1:51:13alarm? No. Did you want to set the
1:51:16alarm? No. Why not?
1:51:18It's just another responsibility that I
1:51:20didn't want I didn't want to know the
1:51:21alarm code.
1:51:24And what did you say when he asked you
1:51:25to set the alarm?
1:51:27I I don't know the code.
1:51:29And what was the defendant's response?
1:51:32Um
1:51:34I don't
1:51:36I think I think he was going to set it.
1:51:38He was that he was going to set the
1:51:39alarm.
1:51:42Did he tell you that or
1:51:43Yeah, I I think it was that he would set
1:51:45it it was kind of an understanding
1:51:46because I didn't get the code.
1:51:48But I didn't pay attention as far as if
1:51:49he set it or not.
1:51:51And you had that conversation while you
1:51:52were standing with him in the foyer?
1:51:54In in the foyer, yes.
1:51:56And did you happen to notice whether his
1:51:58uh he's had any injury to either hand at
1:52:00that time? I I didn't notice, no. You
1:52:03did not notice.
1:52:04Did not.
1:52:12Showing you people's 112, sir. Can you
1:52:13tell us if you recognize that location?
1:52:15That's the foyer.
1:52:17And that's the area where you stood and
1:52:18talked to him about the alarm control?
1:52:20Yes.
1:52:21And you did not notice any injury to his
1:52:23hand? I did not.
1:52:32Oral.
1:52:34After you had the conversation about the
1:52:36alarm control panel, what happened next?
1:52:39Uh
1:52:42he got in the limo to catch the flight.
1:52:48Approximately what time was it when he
1:52:50did that? I thought it was like 11:15.
1:53:01Can you, sir, estimate for us about how
1:53:03much time you spent
1:53:05with the defendant
1:53:07after the limo driver arrived?
1:53:14After the limo driver arrived, when I
1:53:16first saw him?
1:53:17Right. From the time you first saw him
1:53:19to the time he left for the airport.
1:53:24I think it was about
1:53:265 minutes.
1:53:30And through which gate did the limo
1:53:31driver exit? Rockingham.
1:53:35And how did he get out?
1:53:37There's a a button. I I pressed it for
1:53:39him.
1:53:40And it opens the gate.
1:53:43Is that Where is that button located,
1:53:44sir?
1:53:46It would be uh
1:53:49It's uh
1:53:50on the driveway this to the left there's
1:53:52a
1:53:53button that you can press.
1:53:55I mean, I can show you. On the diagram?
1:53:58I can just point it right here from
1:53:59here.
1:54:09There's a Oh, it's
1:54:12it's right there.
1:54:13And for the record, the witness is
1:54:15pointing to the location
1:54:16that is designated on the diagram as
1:54:18gate control box on the Rockingham gate
1:54:21side.
1:54:22Yes.
1:54:35Can you tell us, sir, uh when that gate
1:54:37closes, does it lock automatically?
1:54:39Pretty sure it locks, yes. Okay. Though
1:54:41I'm talking about the Rockingham gate.
1:54:43Yes.
1:54:44How do you get in from the outside?
1:54:46Of the Rockingham gate?
1:54:47Yes. You can use a key.
1:54:50And did you have that key? Yes.
1:54:53As for the Ashford gate,
1:54:55can you tell us how that gate operated?
1:54:57There's uh an intercom
1:55:00that can be buzzed in from inside.
1:55:02And there's also a hinge
1:55:05that you can open it up automatically
1:55:08by
1:55:09you know, if you adjust the hinge the
1:55:10right way, you can push it open and
1:55:13and get in. Okay.
1:55:15So, can you get in through the Ashford
1:55:16Street side without a key?
1:55:19Yes. Can you get in through the Ashford
1:55:21Street gate without somebody buzzing you
1:55:23in? Yes.
1:55:47All right. After the defendant left in
1:55:48the limo, what did you do? You said I
1:55:51think you indicated you pushed Did you
1:55:52push the uh button on the gate to close
1:55:54it? Yes, I did. On the Rockingham gate?
1:55:56Yes.
1:55:57What happened next?
1:55:58So, gate open, waved goodbye, and they
1:56:01drove off, and then I started going back
1:56:03towards my room.
1:56:05And then I
1:56:06I saw the red light or it was a green
1:56:08light on the uh
1:56:11um
1:56:13alarm
1:56:14that it wasn't set. Where did you see
1:56:15that?
1:56:16There's a
1:56:18alarm box the where you set the code.
1:56:21Where? In the front door by the front
1:56:23door. Outside? Yeah, outside.
1:56:26Next to the front door on the outside of
1:56:27the front door? To the left.
1:56:29And that light was green. What did that
1:56:31mean to you?
1:56:33That it was open.
1:56:35That the alarm was not on? Yes.
1:56:37And what did you do about that? Nothing.
1:56:39I went back to my room.
1:56:41How did you go back to your room? Did
1:56:42you go through the house?
1:56:44No, I went to the pathway same way that
1:56:47I
1:56:48came out from. Why didn't you just go
1:56:49through the house?
1:56:51I didn't know if it was locked or not. I
1:56:53know that the
1:56:55that it was a green light.
1:56:56I imagine that meant the alarm wasn't
1:56:58on, but I just went back to my room.
1:57:01That front door, is that normally kept
1:57:03locked? Yes.
1:57:06To the best of your knowledge, who has a
1:57:08key to that front door?
1:57:10I think it's um
1:57:12uh O.J. Arnelle and the housekeeper GiGi
1:57:15probably had a key.
1:57:17Did you have a key? No.
1:57:24All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're
1:57:25going to take our recess for the morning
1:57:27session.
1:57:28Please remember my admonitions to you.
1:57:30Don't discuss the case amongst
1:57:31yourselves. Don't form any opinions
1:57:32about the case. Don't conduct any
1:57:34deliberations till the matter has been
1:57:35submitted to you.
1:57:37Also, do not allow anybody to
1:57:38communicate with you with regard to the
1:57:40case. Mr. Keelen, you may step down.
1:57:41You're ordered to return promptly at
1:57:431:30.
1:57:44All right, we'll stand in recess 1:30.

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