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BYREDO Founder & Former Creative Director: Ben Gorham – Scent, Fatherhood, & No Game Clock — Transcript

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0:00Everything we did over 20-year run was
0:02built for 100 years.
0:04>> Ben Gorham, you are the founder of
0:05Byredo.
0:06>> Correct.
0:06>> A brand you quite recently sold.
0:08>> I like to describe it as a 20-year
0:10overnight success.
0:11>> I know now like genderless fragrances
0:13are very [music] much a thing, but when
0:14you first started I don't think it was.
0:15>> It was as absurd as going to a
0:18restaurant and having a menu for men and
0:20[music] one for women. In 2005, I had
0:22this idea that I could create fragrance
0:24from a new perspective. The story of
0:26Byredo is really an example of kind of
0:28against all odds.
0:30>> All I've heard is that you're working on
0:31a new project. You haven't you haven't
0:32told me anything. So
0:33>> Be weird if I told you I'm not working
0:34on anything, right?
0:35>> I think it would be cool as well. It'd
0:36be cool to be like, "Hey, I'm just just
0:38breathing."
0:39>> I did do that. It didn't last long.
0:40Whatever people struggle with and
0:42whatever doubts and whatever fears
0:44exist, [music] I would just say that
0:46there are examples of people in the
0:48exact same situations that were able to
0:50push through.
0:51>> Around the world with your host, The
0:53Shtark Guy, we welcome you back to The
0:56Shtark Guy Podcast, sharing stories of
0:59excellence with those in the know for
1:02those who just know.
1:06>> I made it.
1:06>> I'm the one who made it. I'm very
1:07grateful that you're here.
1:09>> Thank you. Thank you for having me.
1:11>> I've been wanting to do this for a
1:12while.
1:12>> We've been talking about doing this for
1:14a while.
1:15>> I think I've been the one bugging you
1:16about it, but I appreciate that you're
1:17making it a two-way street.
1:19>> [laughter]
1:19>> You know what, in all honesty, I think
1:21moving to the US, our ships haven't
1:24crossed paths as much as they did in in
1:26the past. That's true.
1:28But we're here.
1:29>> We're here.
1:30How's the move been for you?
1:31>> It's good. It's been
1:33um
1:343 years back in the States.
1:35>> Yeah.
1:36>> Uh very interesting. I'm like relearning
1:39America
1:40in so many ways.
1:41>> Yeah.
1:42>> Uh I spent the last
1:4425 years in Europe.
1:46>> Yeah.
1:46>> Even though I grew up part of my life
1:48here and in Canada, it's kind of a a new
1:50experience.
1:51>> Are you happy so far?
1:52>> Yeah. It's good. I got you know, I've
1:56two children as you know, so I think for
1:57them it's
2:00being to experience American culture and
2:03the good and the bad that comes with
2:04that has been very interesting.
2:06>> What has the good been?
2:08>> The good has been that fight. You know
2:10that interesting fight that
2:13uh that you learn in that competitive
2:14edge. I think for them, you know, we
2:17were living in Sweden.
2:19For them to experience that here has
2:20been uh been very interesting. Uh
2:23sports,
2:24culture, entertainment, all these things
2:27that I grew up on
2:28>> Yeah.
2:28>> has also become a part of their life.
2:30>> Yeah, there's that American
2:32dream for all ages energy.
2:35>> Yeah, for sure. I I mean, I remember
2:38moving to from Europe to America when I
2:42was 12 or initially to Canada
2:45and my first
2:46uh
2:47understanding for the first time in my
2:49life that there was truly like
2:51haves and and have-nots.
2:53>> Yeah.
2:54>> And then that that uh idea that you can
2:57choose.
2:59>> What's that word in Sweden? Lo- lagom?
3:01Lagom? Lagom? You're very lagom,
3:03especially in Miami.
3:05>> I am very lagom in My- in [laughter]
3:07Miami. Yeah, I don't know if that's a
3:09I don't know how you could couldn't be,
3:11but it's uh
3:12yeah, it's a pretty extreme place.
3:15>> It's a bit of an extreme place, but it's
3:16also beautiful. I think it has
3:18this uh this energy that
3:21is hard to find in many places. Maybe
3:23just Dubai.
3:24>> For sure. But even you know, I'll say
3:27this, there's even for myself
3:29stereotypes about moving to
3:31>> Mhm.
3:31>> to Miami or or many places like you'll
3:34have about Dubai also. And I think
3:37it's something really interesting about
3:38living somewhere.
3:40>> Yeah.
3:40>> And uh peeling away those layers
3:43uh and meeting new communities and new
3:46friends and finding those new places to
3:49go eat and
3:50>> Yeah.
3:50>> uh and all of the sudden the the the
3:53flashy
3:54idea of a place kind of fades.
3:56>> Yeah.
3:57>> It's true.
3:57>> Yeah.
3:58>> You make of it what you what you bring
4:00to it.
4:00>> Yeah, I think that's true for most
4:02places.
4:03>> Yeah.
4:04Well, every time I I have the pleasure
4:05of seeing you,
4:07people can tell already from this
4:08conversation so far, but you have this
4:09amazing grounding effect on people.
4:12>> Thank you.
4:13>> Where you again bring
4:16your energy to them of just
4:18feeling heard,
4:21not feeling judged, or feeling unjudged,
4:23actually better way to say it.
4:25And uh
4:26I'm excited to unpack the life
4:28experiences that maybe led you to be the
4:30way you are.
4:32>> Yeah, let's do it.
4:33>> First and foremost, I think most people
4:35know from the headline and know from
4:37this podcast,
4:39Ben Gorham, you are the founder of
4:41Byredo.
4:43>> Correct.
4:44>> A brand many people know and love. A
4:46brand you
4:48quite recently
4:49sold.
4:50>> Correct.
4:52Uh three years ago.
4:54>> Three years ago.
4:54>> Um
4:55or 20 years, just to be
4:58to frame it. Sometimes when people talk
5:00about the sale of things,
5:01>> Yeah.
5:02>> uh they forget to talk about,
5:04you know, when it was founded. And and
5:07uh and it really was a
5:09I like to describe it as a 20-year
5:11overnight success.
5:13>> Yeah.
5:14>> It was uh
5:15it was uh it was very much learning by
5:18doing, but in in 2005,
5:20I had this idea that I could create
5:22fragrance from a new perspective.
5:25>> And at the time you were homeless.
5:27>> That's That's how David,
5:28>> [laughter]
5:29>> our common friend, David, puts it.
5:31Uh
5:32>> Were you literally homeless?
5:34>> I was technically homeless, meaning that
5:36I didn't have my own home.
5:38>> Okay.
5:38>> [laughter]
5:39>> But you know, there's a there's a nicer,
5:42I think they call it
5:44uh couch surfing.
5:45>> Couch surfing.
5:46>> Yeah. I was couch surfing.
5:47>> I think couch surfing is typical of a of
5:50a cool founder.
5:51>> Really?
5:51>> Yeah, like Daniel Ek, where the where I
5:54met you for the first time.
5:55>> Yeah.
5:55>> He was a a famous couch surfer
5:57>> Exactly.
5:58>> when he started Spotify.
5:59>> Yeah.
6:00>> Maybe that's what it is.
6:01Maybe couch surfing is the is the
6:03secret.
6:04>> Yeah, and I think in Sweden it's less
6:06about homelessness because
6:09most people have a home. It's more about
6:10hanging out with your friends.
6:11>> Yeah.
6:12It's true.
6:13So, I'd love to hear more about that
6:15initial desire you had. Why did you want
6:18to do what you did?
6:19>> So, yeah. So, if you know, I I usually
6:21describe my life in like two distinct
6:24chapters and since the age of
6:26>> [snorts]
6:26>> seven,
6:28all I wanted to do in life was to play
6:31basketball professionally. And my big
6:33idol was Michael Jordan.
6:35And and I dedicated myself to that, you
6:39know, from the age of seven until
6:41uh into my early 20s.
6:44And,
6:45you know, right on the finish line I
6:47kind of stumbled and that career uh for
6:50various reasons
6:51um
6:52wasn't available. And uh in some type of
6:57existential crisis, I had to
6:59kind of reinvent myself.
7:01>> Yep.
7:02>> Um and uh and I did that initially by
7:05going back to school. I studied uh fine
7:08arts in Stockholm for a year and a half.
7:11And um upon graduating, I met a perfumer
7:15for the first time.
7:16>> Okay.
7:17>> And had a just a conversation, a social
7:19conversation about uh about perfume and
7:22how to make perfume.
7:24>> Wow.
7:25>> And that sparked some idea in my mind
7:27about
7:29my own connections between smell and
7:31memory. Uh
7:33I eventually end up asking this very
7:36perfumer to help me realize a creative
7:37project, which were very personal
7:40memories that I would translate into
7:42smells.
7:43And that became kind of the inception of
7:46of Byredo.
7:47>> Wow. Can you tell me more about
7:49your connections of smell to memory?
7:52>> Yeah, for sure. So,
7:54my heritage is Indian.
7:56So, I as a child, I traveled back to
7:58India to the place where my mother was
8:00born
8:01uh many times.
8:03And so, I had very distinct memories
8:05connected to smell to India.
8:07Um but also my father who uh
8:11my biological father who left when I
8:13was, you know, a young child. I had very
8:16distinct memories of him also, the way
8:17he smelled. So, I started to understand
8:20as I
8:21explored this new medium
8:24um
8:25that I could almost map my entire life
8:27through different smells.
8:29>> Wow.
8:29>> Uh and that fascination became kind of
8:33an obsession.
8:34And I created a brand or vehicle to
8:38to continue exploring that idea.
8:41>> Was it usually tied to
8:43moments or or feelings, the smells? Like
8:46particular days that you would remember
8:48when you smelled something?
8:49>> You know what? It's a good It's a good
8:51question. Initially for me, it was more
8:54about places.
8:55>> Fine.
8:56>> Uh and as I started to understand more
8:58about it and think more about it, it
9:00became more about moments. And then
9:02eventually
9:03in the abstract uh idea of an emotion.
9:08>> I mean
9:08>> So, that um
9:10But yeah, and also people.
9:12Uh
9:14you know, people wore perfume. So,
9:16actual perfume also played into that
9:19timeline somehow.
9:21>> I think
9:22senses in general are far easier to
9:26digest than they are
9:28to share and explain.
9:30Even language is a lot easier to
9:33understand than it is to speak.
9:35And I think fragrance is that
9:38to a like a thousand degrees. It's
9:41I can recognize a smell
9:44of an old friend or an old family member
9:46if they walk into the room before I see
9:47them sometimes.
9:49But I would have a very hard time
9:51explaining
9:52what that means to me or or what I'm
9:54smelling.
9:56Could you
9:58express what the memories were with
10:00those scents without actually smelling
10:02them at the time?
10:03>> Well, initially
10:05uh no. And that was kind of the
10:07vocabulary
10:09>> Mhm. I had to learn.
10:10Um but also the distinction is I was
10:13never a perfumer. I worked with
10:14perfumers. So, my job was to
10:18find different ways to communicate that
10:20idea.
10:21And I did that through
10:23images and film and
10:26objects that would smell.
10:28>> Oh.
10:29>> And stories. So, I became kind of a
10:33storyteller to help inspire the perfumer
10:36to to recreate the story through the
10:37smell.
10:38>> What was the first story you tried to
10:40recreate?
10:41>> Well, the first one was this place this
10:42very this this very specific place where
10:45my mother was born and raised.
10:47Which I would visit as a child
10:49and didn't go for almost 10 15 years
10:53and came back to a massively developed
10:55very different neighborhood
10:57>> Wow.
10:58>> that smelt exactly the same.
11:00>> Wow.
11:00>> And as I tried to understand what that
11:02smell is, a large part of it was tied to
11:04these
11:06specific
11:07incense that were being burnt at the
11:09temples.
11:10>> Wow.
11:11>> So, then I found a way to communicate
11:13that to him and actually get the incense
11:16and actually have him smell it.
11:18>> Are there certain scents tied to certain
11:20regions of India?
11:22>> For sure. I think you know, there's
11:25and you'll find that in a global sense
11:27too.
11:28Uh all the way down to
11:31I was in Saudi with some friends
11:34and uh talking about scent memories as
11:37it pertained to Byredo and they were all
11:39speaking about a very specific gum that
11:41they grew up
11:42>> Wow.
11:42>> chewing.
11:43Uh
11:45And so, what I started to really be
11:47interested in is this idea of the
11:49collective memory.
11:50>> Yeah.
11:50>> Which what scents memories are shared
11:53amongst people? Sometimes within family,
11:56but sometimes within the larger
11:58culture.
11:59>> Yeah.
11:59I know you actually ended up meeting
12:01your wife in the very early days.
12:04>> Exactly.
12:05>> So, I uh we met in Stockholm.
12:08>> Okay.
12:08>> And I just started the business. I
12:11wouldn't even say the business. I just
12:12started formulating the idea. And I had
12:16to try to
12:17in simultaneously try to impress and try
12:20to explain to this this girl that I was
12:23working with smells.
12:25Um and that everything was going to be
12:27okay one day.
12:28Which you can imagine in in, you know,
12:30the darkness of Swedish winter was, you
12:32know, kind of a new concept.
12:34>> It is definitely a a unique concept,
12:37especially because
12:39when I think of Byredo, I think of of
12:41brightness.
12:43And Stockholm, I mean, in summer it's
12:45great, but in winter it's not not so
12:47bright.
12:48>> So, yeah, those are the contrasts.
12:50>> Yeah.
12:51>> I I think Sweden and
12:53this is probably true for a number of
12:55Swedish entrepreneurs that have done
12:57relatively well.
12:58>> Yeah.
12:59>> Is it because of this geographic
13:02isolation, but also because of these
13:04pretty heavy and dark winters,
13:06>> Yeah.
13:07>> you really put your head down and work.
13:09Uh and I think I think it's true for
13:12musicians, too.
13:13>> Yeah.
13:13>> Uh that place allows you to focus. It It
13:17omits kind of distraction in some way.
13:20And then what I was able to do as I
13:22built a company, I was able to use
13:24Sweden as a base and then travel a lot.
13:27So, I'd go every week to Paris and
13:28London and New York.
13:29>> That's great. That's very convenient.
13:31Very convenient place.
13:33Well, when I think of Byredo today, I
13:35think of
13:36a very simple
13:38product selection, a very just justable
13:40product selection, at least in terms of
13:42the packaging and branding.
13:44>> Yeah.
13:45>> Of course,
13:46deep complexity within the actual
13:48products themselves and the the
13:50fragrances within.
13:52But it all seems
13:54undeniably clear. It's like
13:57nearly even like Apple in terms of the
13:59clarity.
14:01Was that always the intention?
14:04>> It was definitely the intention in the
14:07beginning. And remember, you know, 2005,
14:11even the
14:12aesthetic landscape of brands didn't
14:14look that way. Mhm. So, by being simple,
14:17you were being unique.
14:18>> Yeah.
14:19>> So, it had it had a different value
14:20maybe than what you'd perceive today.
14:23Um but I also understood kind of early
14:27enough understood the difference between
14:30consumer goods, which was
14:33ultimately the commercial success was
14:35somehow linked to the consumer's
14:38understanding of what you were doing.
14:39The better you could
14:41communicate
14:42that, the better your chances of selling
14:45a product were.
14:47Whereas
14:48other industries that I was fascinated
14:50by, like art,
14:53created, you know, attention.
14:56And and if the consumer understood too
14:58much, the art wasn't interesting.
15:00>> That's true.
15:01>> So, I would you know, so I I was very
15:03focused on that in the beginning in
15:06making sure that to frame the idea in a
15:08way so that
15:09it was palatable for people.
15:12>> But there's still that mystery you're
15:13talking about with the art, cuz I think
15:15the
15:16the naming, at least,
15:18is like
15:21sometimes feels specific and sometimes
15:23feels ambiguous, and I think that's
15:26probably by design.
15:28>> For sure. The naming became, I mean,
15:30considering the generic nature of the
15:32products
15:33and the uniform approach to the
15:35packaging, the names became the great
15:38communicator.
15:39>> Yeah.
15:40>> So, I put a lot of emphasis on on that
15:43as a
15:45as kind of the first connection to a
15:46person because
15:48I immediately noticed that a strong name
15:52uh triggered strong interaction with
15:55product.
15:56Um so, yeah, it it was. But again, I
16:00mean, you know this now that you're
16:02in the brand landscape is that brands
16:06are
16:07complex beings with many different
16:09layers and and
16:11for
16:12you know, consumers and customers,
16:15some people partake on different levels.
16:17And I think with Byredo there was a face
16:19value,
16:20which was simple and clean for people to
16:23understand.
16:24And then for people like yourself,
16:27the underlying stories and the origin
16:29and the quality and all these things
16:31became
16:32important. So, I found ways to
16:33communicate those.
16:35>> With the initial selection that you're
16:38developing, I'd love to
16:40learn more about
16:42what the first few products were and how
16:46that all came together over those 20
16:47years.
16:49>> Yeah.
16:50It It started as five perfumes.
16:53>> Yeah.
16:53>> Uh
16:55Why was it five? I think uh
16:58Uh so, one thing I did early and I think
17:01maybe this is from my background in
17:03sports,
17:05it was it I as I was competitive, I
17:08studied my competitors.
17:10And I think
17:12uh
17:13I think I landed in the idea that I
17:15needed five perfumes to be a real brand.
17:17>> Okay.
17:18>> Uh I felt like that was kind of the the
17:22the the lowest
17:24kind of denominator of all the brands
17:26that were somehow successful or they had
17:29collections of products.
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18:05now back to the podcast.
18:08>> Were you thinking of
18:10five different people that that each
18:12fragrance would suit or five could be
18:14all for one person?
18:16>> So, so I you know, I I wish I could say
18:18that I was
18:20you know, a a bit more brilliant at the
18:22time. It was very self-indulgent and I
18:24basically made five perfumes that I
18:26love.
18:27>> That's great.
18:28>> I didn't think about fragrance families.
18:30I didn't think about the wearer.
18:33I honestly didn't reflect on the idea of
18:36truly reflect on the idea of a wearer
18:39until many years later I was in an
18:41airport standing behind somebody
18:44and I smelt randomly smelt a Byredo
18:47perfume on them.
18:49>> Wow.
18:49>> And I felt almost, you know, embarrassed
18:51and excited at the same time.
18:54That this like invisible medium existed
18:57out in the world beyond me.
18:59>> That's really cool.
19:00>> Yeah. No, it was it was
19:02uh
19:03And this again, like when you put your
19:05head down and you're working, sometimes
19:07you
19:08I obviously saw the sales and the
19:10numbers of products going out the door.
19:13But to actually imagine, and this is
19:15even before we had our own retail store.
19:17>> Mhm.
19:18>> I didn't really have a face to the
19:20customer. So, it's just putting it out
19:22there and
19:23and and wondering somehow who's wearing
19:25it and how they were relating to it.
19:27>> Who was wearing it?
19:29>> It was a random woman.
19:31Uh I think uh
19:32maybe not as as young as I'd imagine.
19:35>> Yeah.
19:36>> Uh
19:37but I also it's another concept for us
19:39to speak on at some point, but
19:42one of the things I learned on this
19:43journey was the difference between
19:46you know, the the brand of Byredo and
19:48the business of Byredo. Uh
19:51and they don't necessarily need to be
19:53the same thing. Uh
19:56So, that and and that, you know,
19:58illustrated through customers that maybe
20:01weren't my peers or people that I
20:03but people that somehow related to this
20:06product on a personal way.
20:07>> Yeah.
20:08Or maybe aspired to be
20:10who the brand
20:11>> For sure.
20:12>> is designed for.
20:13>> I think aspiration is a
20:16is it's it's an important
20:18kind of emotion, driving emotion for
20:20consumer goods.
20:22I think with Byredo
20:25I was scared of the idea of being one
20:27thing. Mhm. So, I created
20:30something that had the ability to
20:33evolve and pivot and where I could
20:36recontextualize
20:38the brand many ways for many people. Uh
20:42and and you know, in retrospect, it it
20:45worked out really well, but at the time
20:46that's not what people did.
20:48>> Yeah.
20:49>> In my initial business plan, I remember
20:52pitching to somebody to raise money and
20:55they asked me who who the customer was
20:58and I said
20:59women and men 18 to 85.
21:04And
21:05uh you know, and I lost you know, all
21:07credibility, but
21:09it just to illustrate that my idea was
21:11that I could sell a product to a wide
21:13demographic.
21:15And I felt like as long as it was
21:17aspirational in nature
21:20that I could
21:21contextualize it for an 18-year-old
21:24but also for their grandmother.
21:25>> What did the
21:27your competitive landscape look like in
21:28terms of gendering cuz
21:31I know now like genderless fragrances
21:34are
21:35very much a thing, but when you first
21:36started, I don't think it was.
21:37>> No. So, the the larger industry was
21:41uh market driven.
21:42>> Yeah.
21:43>> Marketing driven. So, they were saying
21:45these products are for men and these are
21:47for women.
21:47>> Mhm.
21:48>> And and it was that way because perfume
21:51was historically made for women.
21:53>> Mhm.
21:54>> And one day they understood that they
21:57could probably sell
21:59this type of product to the other half
22:02of the world's population
22:04>> Mhm.
22:04>> and they renamed it. I think instead of
22:06perfume, they called it eau de toilette.
22:08>> Mhm.
22:09>> And they started tweaking the smells and
22:11they started marketing it to men saying
22:14this is what a man should smell like.
22:15>> And making it quite macho initially.
22:17>> Quite macho and and you know, as I
22:20started to uncover
22:22the history, uh it was as absurd as us
22:26going to a restaurant and having a menu
22:28for men and one for women in terms of
22:30what to eat cuz taste and smell for me
22:33were
22:34intertwined. So,
22:35>> That's very well said. I never thought
22:36of that.
22:37>> And that was So, that was the reasoning
22:38behind it at the time. It was just It
22:40was It didn't make sense. And again,
22:43like maybe naive, but I was like, let's
22:45just not do that.
22:46>> So, what were those first five
22:47fragrances?
22:48>> Oh, wow. There's the history lesson.
22:51There's It was the one called Green,
22:53which was the smell of my father.
22:55>> Okay.
22:55>> There was Chembur, which was that actual
22:57place in India.
22:59There was
23:01There was one called Rose Noir, which is
23:03actually
23:04>> Which you still sell?
23:05>> Uh, no. I don't think I think that one
23:07was discontinued. There's another rose,
23:09but that one was linked actually to the
23:10Middle East.
23:11>> Okay, nice.
23:12>> And it was a actually a play on gender
23:15because the rose was a very masculine
23:17symbol in the Middle East.
23:18>> Okay.
23:19>> Which was the complete opposite to
23:21>> to the west.
23:21>> to the west.
23:22>> Mhm.
23:22>> So, I created a fragrance
23:24>> that
23:25>> that had that character, that played
23:26with those gender roles.
23:28>> Mhm.
23:28>> And this story which was one.
23:30Uh,
23:30the other one
23:32maybe Gypsy Water.
23:33>> That you're definitely still selling.
23:35>> That one they still sell. Gypsy one. And
23:37then Bal d'Afrique was one of the Maybe
23:38it was the fifth or the sixth.
23:40>> Bal d'Afrique is one of the best
23:41sellers, right?
23:41>> Yes. And that one was That was an
23:44interesting one because that one
23:47was based So, when I was 18, my mother
23:49gave me the diaries of my biological
23:52father.
23:53>> Oh, wow.
23:53>> And he'd spent 10 years in Africa. So, I
23:55got to
23:57read about his life
23:59um
24:00and specifically this time in in Africa.
24:03So, Bal d'Afrique became, you know, the
24:05ball of Africa became
24:08uh,
24:09me
24:10translating his memory of Africa into a
24:12smell. It was the first time I was
24:14working in a more
24:16fictional
24:17approach. So, it really changed my
24:19process, but it was
24:21>> Mhm.
24:22>> It was an interesting exercise.
24:24>> And you were trying to kind of assume a
24:26memory and a scent that would be aligned
24:28to what you were reading.
24:29>> Exactly.
24:30>> That's cool.
24:31>> Yeah, it worked.
24:32>> Yeah, it worked.
24:34I'd love to know more about that
24:35difference you were saying between
24:38the brand and the business.
24:40>> Yeah, it's it's uh I guess when you
24:43start anything you have an idea that's
24:45clear about
24:47you know, what you're going to be doing.
24:48And
24:50this is not so different from self. You
24:52look in the mirror every day and
24:55we put on this fancy hat and these jeans
24:58and we look in the mirror and we have
24:58this idea of how people are going to
25:00perceive us.
25:01But the reality is when we go out there
25:02in the world, they perceive us most of
25:05the time in a different way.
25:06>> Yeah.
25:07>> And if you're
25:08authentic enough, maybe those ideas get
25:10close enough, right?
25:12I found that the brand exercise was very
25:14much similar. I'd sit and I'd do this
25:17idea of
25:18what Parfums Caron was. And then take
25:20like an Irving Penn image and
25:23I'd take some
25:24poetry from Baudelaire and I'd build a
25:26very sophisticated idea of what this
25:28brand was.
25:30And then I'd make the product and I'd
25:31put it out there and people are like,
25:32"Oh, it smells like bubblegum."
25:35And and you start to understand that
25:38the way that you frame your brand
25:40uh is very important. Um
25:44but that there's always going to be an
25:45element of perception.
25:47>> Mhm.
25:47>> And when you put things out there,
25:49um
25:51you also can't tell people what feel and
25:53think.
25:54And and you start to embrace that idea.
25:56So,
25:58the way that I did it with memory was I
26:00created these
26:02ideas that tapped into a collective
26:04memory. So, in the instance of
26:07my father, it was the smell
26:10of how I remember my father when I was 6
26:13years old.
26:15But by telling you that this is the
26:17smell of
26:18a father figure,
26:20I could trigger your imagination. And
26:22you'd say, "Oh, I remember what my dad
26:24or my uncle or my grandfather
26:26>> Yeah.
26:26>> smelled like."
26:28And
26:29when you pick that bottle up, even
26:30though it didn't smell like your father,
26:33it let you kind of engage and make your
26:36own memory with that smell. So, it was
26:38more about just getting people to engage
26:40than telling people you should perceive
26:42it this way and it should be
26:44and perfume out of all industries at the
26:46time you're talking about what we were
26:48doing different at the time,
26:51it was very elitist.
26:53There was
26:54There was a lot of pedigree.
26:55>> Mhm.
26:56>> So,
26:57um there were a lot of
26:58>> questions of
27:00>> you know, what what gave me the right to
27:02make perfume. So, it was uh I
27:06I had to fight that idea early enough,
27:09but the world changed and more
27:10importantly the consumers changed.
27:12>> Mhm.
27:13>> Uh
27:14and
27:15what they kind of agreed on was that
27:19these rules have no real relevance in
27:22how our
27:24how we physiologically experience smell.
27:27>> And would you say that those rules were
27:29mostly tied to
27:31gender?
27:33>> They were tied to gender, but they were
27:34also
27:36Anglo they're very European.
27:37>> Yeah.
27:37>> French and Italian. Those people that
27:39were making perfume.
27:40>> Yeah.
27:41>> Um and there was a classically trained
27:45perfumer
27:46>> Mhm.
27:47>> and perfume was to be made in a certain
27:49way.
27:50Um
27:51and we kind of offset all those things
27:53in the beginning.
27:54>> How did you make yours differently?
27:56>> Well, part of it is that I lacked the
27:58pedigree and I lacked the experience.
28:01So, my idea of what something should
28:02smell like,
28:04I wasn't even the guy that wore perfume.
28:07Like growing up. So, like this medium
28:10was
28:11brand new for me. So, it like it blew my
28:14mind. Can you imagine smelling things
28:16for the first time?
28:17>> Yeah.
28:18>> One of my best friends was a perfume
28:20junkie. He would I remember he'd always
28:22have like a nightstand, you know, it was
28:24his thing, the ritual.
28:26>> Yeah.
28:26>> And I never had that. Um So, as I began
28:29to like
28:31understand smell and smell things, it
28:33really blew my mind.
28:35>> And how did you
28:37have so much conviction that this would
28:38be your end up being your life's work?
28:41>> I don't think I defined it as that.
28:43>> Yeah.
28:44>> But remember, I had this failed career
28:47as a basketball player.
28:48>> Yeah.
28:49>> So,
28:50you know, from an energy from a focus,
28:53it was just shifting.
28:55>> Mhm.
28:56>> And as I did that, uh I think I was able
28:59to
29:00apply
29:02you know, the the discipline and the
29:04hard work and the even the ability to to
29:07visualize, which which in sports is very
29:10important, right? As you take a shot and
29:12if for a second you don't believe it's
29:14going to go in, you'll probably miss the
29:15shot.
29:16>> Mhm.
29:16>> That translated very well into
29:20entrepreneurship.
29:22Is setting goals and then visualizing
29:25where you want to go and then achieving
29:26them.
29:27>> I think in in sports, success is
29:30so easy to define. It's just like you
29:32win the the game.
29:34Many ways, right? But in especially when
29:37you're an entrepreneur in the early
29:38days,
29:39when there's a long road ahead,
29:41I think success is
29:43very subjective.
29:46Unless of course there's a lot of money
29:47involved, but that rarely happens
29:49quickly.
29:50What is
29:51your What was your early definition of
29:54of success
29:56that drove you?
29:58>> I I think what I learned in in regards
30:01to that or what I experienced
30:04was that entrepreneurship was just uh a
30:07long list of
30:11hopefully more wins than losses.
30:13>> Mhm.
30:13>> You know what I mean? And
30:15you know, it could be uh signing a um
30:18new pricing list for logistics.
30:21>> Mhm.
30:22>> Yes, I did it. That was a win. You know
30:24what I mean? And when you start to
30:26understand that, that
30:29the true success is like how do you
30:31solve all these problems,
30:33for me, then you end up winning all the
30:35time. And then of course you lose and
30:37you there's challenges,
30:39but in
30:41in relation to sports, if you lose a
30:43game you get an L.
30:45If I
30:47if I get an L in terms of,
30:50you know, not convincing the bank to
30:52give me the loan,
30:53I can come back next week and convince
30:55them and and turn that into a W.
30:58And so that was very empowering for an
31:00athlete who lived under the crunch of
31:04time. You know, even and even in terms
31:07of like there's so many uncontrollable
31:09variables like injuries, age, and
31:14coach, and the team player, and the ref,
31:16and like
31:17those things didn't really exist.
31:19And and more importantly, there was no
31:22game clock.
31:23So
31:25people ask
31:27people speak on kind of the success of
31:29burrito and I like to remind people that
31:31it took
31:3320 years.
31:34I think
31:36the no game clock is actually a
31:37decision. I think it's a very powerful
31:39decision because
31:41a lot of entrepreneurs and people in
31:43general
31:44will impose a game clock on themselves.
31:47Sometimes maybe by life circumstance and
31:48it's out of their hands. They actually
31:51need to solve some sort of problem and
31:53that's why they're entrepreneurs, but
31:55many is just raw ambition and if they
31:56don't find their version of success
31:58within a few months or even a year or
32:01two, they're like okay, that's it. I'm
32:02I'm quitting. 100%
32:05and again, this was a reflection.
32:08I mean, you'll know this as an
32:09entrepreneur you're often times you're
32:11looking forward, right?
32:13When we sold the company, I actually
32:14took,
32:16you know, a few years to look back and
32:19say, you know,
32:20how did we do what we do?
32:22And to your point, one of the things was
32:25we just outlasted
32:27a bunch of people.
32:29People doing great things,
32:31but impatience or a different idea of
32:35the destination caused them to to quit
32:38or to shift their energy to something
32:40else.
32:41Uh and by the way, that was again, it
32:44was like
32:45a process of like tweaking and
32:47perfecting over a long period of time.
32:49>> I admire the the long-term
32:52view.
32:53>> I think it's easier when you have
32:54nothing.
32:55>> Mhm.
32:55>> In in you know,
32:57when you're rock bottom,
32:59>> Yeah.
32:59>> there's no sacrifice. It can only go up.
33:01So, as long as
33:03you know, the train is moving in the
33:04right direction, there's some solace to
33:06that.
33:08Um
33:10I think yeah, I try not to judge people
33:12in
33:14their circumstances or
33:16in their
33:17their own kind of journeys.
33:20But I do
33:22kind of
33:23speak a lot about
33:25people's ability to
33:28to like
33:29overcome
33:30the all this variable of time.
33:32>> At what point did you realize that
33:34something was going in the right
33:35direction?
33:36>> The day one, I'd say.
33:38>> Yeah.
33:38>> Cuz remember, like I made a perfume and
33:41then one person said, "I like the way it
33:43smells." I'm like, "That's a win."
33:46You know, and then I show another one
33:48and another one and then
33:50"Hey, I want to put it in a bottle."
33:52They found a They found a supplier. They
33:54going to sell me the bottle. That's a
33:56win.
33:56>> Yeah.
33:57>> And so, you know, from the second and I
34:00think you know, the success
34:02uh
34:03was immediate, but it was relative.
34:06>> Mhm.
34:07>> Uh and when again, when you're rock
34:09bottom,
34:11it it requires very little
34:13>> Mhm.
34:13>> to to to make you feel like it's
34:16uh I get again, you know, it's I don't
34:19want to sound like a broken record, but
34:20this is
34:21kind of how I was trained.
34:23>> Mhm.
34:24>> You know, I was kind of forced to be an
34:26optimist
34:27>> Yeah.
34:28>> in my approach.
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35:29>> I know that with fragrance
35:31the physical retail and the distribution
35:34is such an important part of it because
35:36people need to try the product out
35:38before they buy it.
35:39No one's really
35:41I mean, I won't say no one, but very few
35:42people I think are willing to buy
35:44something they've never smelled before.
35:45>> For sure. Uh
35:48you will be surprised when you see the
35:49numbers.
35:50>> People just order online and
35:52>> Yeah, and it's also it kind of
35:54indicative of the times we live in where
35:56people are
35:58uh
35:59consuming for different reasons.
36:02>> Fine.
36:03>> You know, and and you and I can agree on
36:06uh an idea of like quality.
36:08>> Mhm.
36:09>> Which I know we share.
36:10But some people don't. Some people want
36:13context. Some people want status. People
36:16want image.
36:17Uh so, it uh
36:20again, I try not to judge, but I I have
36:23learned that
36:24uh yeah, people buy products for
36:26different reasons.
36:27>> I realize actually now in this
36:28generation more than ever with
36:31fragrance, there's
36:33a huge community of particularly young
36:35people actually that are obsessed with
36:37the science of fragrance. And they look
36:39at all the I forgot which website it is
36:41with all the notes and
36:43insane breakdowns.
36:44>> For sure.
36:45>> And they can just look at the
36:47ingredients list and make a very
36:49educated decision and assume they'd like
36:51something.
36:52>> Uh
36:53definitely. And and imagine that didn't
36:55exist in any facet. When I started
36:59um
37:00and that you know you thank social media
37:02for that. That that sparked the
37:04imagination of a lot of young people.
37:07Uh
37:08the fragrance
37:10um growth over the last few years
37:13a lot of it's come from young men.
37:15>> Yeah.
37:16>> And I think with TikTok and with social
37:18media, makeup and skin care had an
37:19incredible swing.
37:21>> Yeah.
37:21>> And I think as a counter to that
37:24men found an interest or boys and sudden
37:27found an interest in fragrance and notes
37:29to be able to counter that
37:31that interest that the girls were
37:33showing in makeup and skin.
37:34>> Yeah.
37:35>> Uh
37:35so it became kind of the thing that
37:37they're
37:37>> It's cool.
37:38>> It's very cool.
37:40It's almost intimidating now when I meet
37:42young men and they know everything about
37:44perfume.
37:45>> It's true.
37:46And then the layering and the the
37:48timing.
37:48>> Yeah.
37:50>> When did you start getting I guess more
37:52sophisticated with that
37:54frame of mind?
37:55>> With fragrance?
37:56>> Yeah.
37:58As a founder.
37:59>> I wouldn't say I am
38:00still.
38:02I you know
38:03I learned a great deal and I have these
38:05incredible perfumers that I was able to
38:07work with.
38:08Um but I was able to
38:11understand their role and understand my
38:13role.
38:14>> Mhm.
38:15>> So I I tried to have a very intuitive
38:17approach to it as long as I could.
38:20Uh
38:21I thought if I started to overthink that
38:23I would lose the magic.
38:25Uh and maybe I was a bit lazy and maybe
38:27I was
38:28interested in all the other things that
38:31I needed to engage in.
38:32>> So what was the inflection point during
38:35those 20 years or even towards the end
38:38that led you to
38:40ultimately sell the business?
38:42>> I think there was always the idea in
38:44beauty that a company could be sold you
38:47know over time. But I thought if that
38:50day were to come it would come
38:51naturally. And
38:54everything we did over a 20-year run was
38:57built for 100 years.
39:00Every decision, every fragrance, every
39:02campaign, every name,
39:05every ingredient. There were more
39:07commercial iterations of everything that
39:09could have brought short-term gains.
39:12Um
39:13but I was lucky enough to have partners
39:16that
39:17prioritized that vision and understood
39:20that uh
39:21and again I
39:22I aspired to this idea of or this
39:25culture of luxury.
39:27So the brands like Hermes and
39:30Chanel, the there was a
39:32portion of the playbook that was always
39:34written.
39:36And and one of the important pillars was
39:38time, right? That these brands had grown
39:40over
39:41over time.
39:43Now what that meant historically was
39:45that
39:46if you'd been stitching the same bag for
39:4820 years, you probably make this bag
39:50better than everybody else.
39:52Now the world changed for many of those
39:54brands. So they were all making them in
39:55the same factories. So you know, you
39:57could question it and we questioned the
39:59notion of luxury and heritage at times.
40:02Or the relevance of a horse and a
40:04carriage
40:05to a young person riding the subway in
40:07New York.
40:08Um but
40:10I still believed that time was important
40:13and that we could
40:15you know, perfect our craft and our
40:17story over time.
40:20Um
40:21so I I um
40:23yeah, I was lucky enough to have that
40:24support throughout most of my career.
40:28And then it came to a point where
40:32we started to see that the next phase
40:35and again historically when I look at
40:37what we built, they're very
40:40clear kind of commercial
40:42phases. Which have to do with the scale
40:45essentially.
40:46Uh and and geography. And they come with
40:50a different set of challenges and we
40:52started to understand a few years back
40:56that the next
40:58phase was going to be increasingly
40:59different and that internally we mean
41:03might need another
41:04skill set.
41:06So a sale or a partnership became kind
41:09of a relevant
41:11solution to that problem.
41:13>> What did you feel when
41:15you were coming close to the sale? Was
41:16it relief? Was it excitement?
41:18>> You know I was excited for
41:20for uh
41:22I was excited for the brand because it
41:23meant kind of
41:25securing in the next chapter.
41:28Personally I was excited because
41:31it meant
41:32financially we'd be in a very good
41:34place.
41:35Um
41:37And I'd had only good experiences with
41:39partners. So you know I felt quite calm
41:43with it.
41:44I will also say that
41:46I never called it you know Ben's brand.
41:49It was Byredo. It was an idea that was
41:52kind of a projection of a person I
41:53wanted to be and a lifestyle I wanted to
41:55be.
41:57And early enough in that journey I was
41:59able to
42:00kind of disconnect my my ego
42:04from the brand.
42:06And at times you know people would say
42:09maybe you need to get out in front of it
42:10and you need to be more visible and
42:13you need to open up your private life
42:15and
42:16but I kept a very
42:18clear separation between what this brand
42:20was and who I was as a person.
42:22So in the
42:25in the sale I think emotionally for me
42:28people were like how does it feel that
42:30your baby
42:31And I said it is
42:33but I feel like my baby's kind of grown
42:36up. So I feel comfortable with with
42:39letting go to a certain degree.
42:41>> I like that a lot. I spoke about on the
42:44podcast with Dave actually
42:46about like the archetype of
42:48men in my
42:50ecosystem
42:51that I end up admiring the most.
42:54And it's a combination of two things.
42:57It's
42:58the man that can be incredibly ambitious
43:00and achieve what they want to achieve,
43:03but not on isolation. I think doing that
43:06as a a single man or a bachelor, of
43:08course, is is impressive.
43:11But doing that while being
43:13a present husband and father
43:17is like the final boss to me. Also,
43:19being a present father is a great thing
43:21in isolation, but if you're not working,
43:23it makes it a lot easier.
43:25But doing those at the same time,
43:27the max ambition in both categories is
43:32the archetype of man I admire most.
43:35So, I'd love to talk about that side of
43:37things as well.
43:37>> sure. Yeah, I'm I'm thinking about it as
43:40you say it, and I think I I agree. It
43:43is, though,
43:44in any form, it is a a compromise.
43:48>> Mhm.
43:49>> Or a balance, if you want to put it that
43:51way. And I think defining your
43:54balance
43:56is the hardest part in that. You know, I
43:58would read about
44:00extremely successful entrepreneurs,
44:03people that changed our world.
44:06Uh
44:07and the dis- character descriptions were
44:09all the same. They were always uh
44:11some version of an
44:13>> Mhm.
44:14>> And I would hear that, and I used to
44:14think about that. I used to think about
44:16how
44:17how
44:18I get it. People used to say that about
44:20Michael Jordan, too.
44:21>> Mhm.
44:23>> If you want to maximize the ambition
44:26within the given realm,
44:29there has to be zero compromise.
44:30>> Mhm.
44:31>> So, from a
44:34productivity perspective,
44:36that would make sense.
44:38Right?
44:39Um but we're humans, and we live in this
44:42human world, right? And I think what's
44:45common with all those people is they get
44:46to the end of the road, and they speak
44:48of regret.
44:49>> Mhm.
44:50>> And the regret is not
44:52what they would have done
44:52professionally.
44:54It's always what they would have done
44:55personally in life. And it's about human
44:58connections.
44:58>> Mhm.
44:59>> So, I think I understood that early
45:01enough.
45:02Um
45:03and then I had my own, you know, trauma
45:05of
45:06you know,
45:07uh my father leaving. So, I had from a
45:09very young age the way that I
45:13saw family or that I wanted to approach
45:15family or the way I wanted to be a
45:16father or a husband,
45:19those things were directly linked to
45:21you know, my experiences.
45:23>> Mhm.
45:23>> So, it wasn't a
45:26but at the same time it wasn't easy
45:27because my wife carried,
45:30you know, the load at home. She really
45:34uh made sure everything worked so that I
45:36could
45:37fly to Shanghai for a day,
45:40go to Sydney, go to Miami, go to Dubai,
45:43go to LA.
45:45The
45:46it was, you know, that was a
45:49it required teamwork and sacrifice. And
45:53yeah, we talk about it now. Do I regret,
45:56you know, especially those
45:59early years having to be gone?
46:01>> Mhm.
46:02>> Definitely, but I also understand the
46:05correlation to the opportunities that it
46:07creates for family.
46:09>> Mhm.
46:09>> Uh and having We were talking about this
46:12the other day.
46:14Having a strong partner
46:16uh
46:17makes all the difference in the world.
46:20So, I'm yeah, immensely grateful for
46:22that.
46:23>> What was it that you saw in your partner
46:25early on that told you this is
46:28This is my woman.
46:29>> Well, she Listen, she was she was
46:32uh my wife is uh and every anybody who
46:34knows her will tell you this, she's
46:36she's a tough cookie.
46:39And I think that grit
46:41uh I appreciated that from the
46:43beginning. I felt
46:45uh I felt like as as a mother but as a
46:47wife and
46:49that, you know, she would always do what
46:51she had to do. Uh and I, you know, so I
46:54took great comfort in that.
46:56Uh
46:58And then, yeah, she's uh we've been
47:00together 22 years.
47:02It's beautiful. Yeah. So, it's uh
47:05and uh and it's been like it's been an
47:08adventure.
47:10Uh and we've both grown.
47:12Um
47:14but her relationship to me is
47:16you know, the the couch surfer.
47:19So, it's it's different maybe than other
47:21people. Who is she doesn't in all
47:24honesty she's like if I do 100 podcasts
47:28or 100 covers of magazines, it it really
47:30hasn't affected the way she sees me.
47:32>> As just the couch couch surfer.
47:34>> As just the couch surfer.
47:37And when you meet her, which you will at
47:38some point, you'll you'll feel that
47:40energy in the way she treats me, too.
47:42>> That's beautiful.
47:43>> Yeah.
47:44>> And what about your daughters?
47:46>> I think you know, I think my wife has
47:47been able to clone herself twice.
47:49[laughter]
47:50So, you know, and and I think somehow
47:52I'm paying the price for something I did
47:54>> once upon a time.
47:55>> That's so funny.
47:56>> But I live in most of my life I've been
47:58surrounded by women. Single mother,
48:00sister. I raised my sister, my younger
48:02sister.
48:03>> Yeah. Um
48:05>> Strong women, you know, independent
48:07women, but always women.
48:09Um and I got to somehow, you know, I got
48:12to be the boss at work.
48:14>> Mhm.
48:15>> So, I was all right with not being the
48:16boss at home.
48:18Uh and uh
48:21yeah, and somehow my my kids picked up
48:23on that.
48:24>> [laughter]
48:25>> I'm sure that people listening today
48:28even before you said that you were
48:29surrounded by by women growing up
48:32could assume that cuz I always have
48:35very quick feeling. Um I I only have
48:37sisters and my dad was traveling a lot
48:39growing up, so I was always surrounded
48:40by women. But I very quickly
48:44can tell when I meet a guy
48:46does he have no sisters and was he not
48:49surrounded by women growing up or was
48:50he? It's two very different energies.
48:53>> I agree. And I think
48:55uh
48:56yeah, for for better or worse, I think
48:58now that, you know, I have a 17-year-old
49:00daughter,
49:01it's it's anytime she brings up the name
49:04of a boy, it's one of the questions,
49:06does he have a sister?
49:08>> It's a good question.
49:09>> relationship with his mother?
49:10>> Yeah.
49:11>> Yeah.
49:11>> And being a girl dad is really cool.
49:14>> For sure. It's become a bit of a
49:16thing, especially here.
49:18>> Yeah.
49:18>> Like a full like t-shirt thing, cap
49:20thing, merch thing, yeah.
49:21>> dad
49:22>> Yeah. So, I I don't you I don't use the
49:24word
49:25>> You don't you don't
49:25>> [laughter]
49:26>> as much as I used to.
49:27>> merch?
49:28>> I don't wear the merch, but uh
49:31but yeah, it's cool. And it's cool to be
49:32able
49:33to to, you know, be there physically.
49:35What the thing that has changed since,
49:38you know, we sold the company is that I
49:40don't travel as much.
49:41>> Mhm.
49:42>> And that allows me to,
49:44you know, physically be there. Uh and
49:46and that has value.
49:48>> For us.
49:48What was it like to get married young?
49:51>> I wasn't married young.
49:52Um
49:53>> I'm pretty young, especially in today's
49:55standard.
49:56>> Well, I guess that is changing, right?
49:57People are
49:59waiting longer and longer.
50:01>> Yeah. A lot of my friends that are your
50:02age are single.
50:04A lot of our friends are are single.
50:06>> Yeah.
50:07For for Yeah, I'd imagine
50:10I'd imagine more people are single
50:13single longer in today, right?
50:16Um again, I think, you know, mine was
50:19like tied to the way I grew up, right? I
50:22wanted to be a dad and I wanted to be a
50:24husband.
50:25Um
50:28And then
50:30I was
50:31How young was I? I met my wife in my
50:33late 20s.
50:34>> Mhm.
50:36>> I lived I felt like I lived a a good
50:38life.
50:39I saw the world. I did I was pretty
50:41secure in who I was as a person. I think
50:44it's very much about that as you enter
50:46into like
50:48these partnerships, I think
50:50it's more about, you know, where you are
50:52in your personal journey.
50:53>> Mhm.
50:54>> Um
50:56and then, you know, finding somebody who
50:58aligns with with values. The simple
51:01things.
51:01>> I agree with that, and I think you put
51:03it
51:04beautifully and eloquently cuz there's a
51:07trend online of people saying
51:09there's a theory called the taxi cab
51:11theory.
51:12>> Tell me about this.
51:13>> Basically, your readiness is more
51:15important than the partner, like a taxi.
51:17If you're not ready for a taxi, you
51:19don't care how many taxis drive by.
51:21But when you are ready for a taxi, you
51:22care a lot when the taxi drives by.
51:25And that's the theory.
51:26>> Yeah.
51:26>> And uh
51:27I fully agree with it. I think it's it's
51:29very true.
51:31>> Yeah. I I uh
51:33and then you know, those things change.
51:35Circumstances change also in life.
51:37>> Yeah.
51:37>> Um
51:39but yeah, marriage in the
51:43traditional sense is a a commitment.
51:46>> Mhm.
51:47>> Uh
51:48to to to deal with
51:50Yeah.
51:51And we And we've Yeah, we've done that
51:53for a while.
51:54>> Yeah.
51:55>> [laughter]
51:56>> Well, now you are working on a new
51:59project.
52:00>> Did you hear that?
52:01>> I have I've All I've heard is that
52:03you're working on a new project. You
52:04haven't You haven't told me anything
52:06about the project.
52:07>> weird if I told you I'm not working on
52:09anything, right?
52:10That That's where my credibility would
52:12fall.
52:12>> No, I think I think it'd be cool as
52:14well. It'd be cool to be like, "Hey, I'm
52:16just
52:17just breathing."
52:18>> Just breathing.
52:19I did do that. It didn't last long.
52:21>> No?
52:22>> Yeah, I I think if you have an ounce of
52:24creativity in you,
52:26uh
52:27and if you've been an entrepreneur,
52:28you'll know that the
52:30the disorder of the entrepreneur is
52:33seeing possibilities in everything,
52:35right? So, you walk down the street and
52:37you're like,
52:38"Hey, I wonder if I could do that."
52:39>> Mhm.
52:39>> Uh so I'm Yes, I'm obviously working on
52:43something.
52:45Uh
52:47I think you know, being able to
52:51remember what it was like has been hard.
52:54Mhm. When you've had a 20-year run of
52:56something, you forget.
52:59And just like uh
53:01you know, you forget
53:03bad things in relationships.
53:05>> It's
53:06It's very much
53:08been that thinking about
53:11you know, how to do the simple things
53:12and then
53:13and then the other thing that's, you
53:15know, very relevant to to this idea of
53:17doing another project is that the world
53:19is a
53:20very different place today than 20 years
53:22ago.
53:23Uh
53:24and
53:25in my opinion is about uh
53:27you know, truly pivot.
53:30Um
53:31so
53:33when I started in '05
53:36as a method, you were able to look at
53:38the world and say
53:40there's an opportunity here or there's a
53:43gap here and then you were able to
53:44create something to fill that gap.
53:48The cadence
53:50of today and the the the way that things
53:52move,
53:53you have to look
53:5510 years ahead in time and say, I think
53:58there's going to be a gap there. And
53:59then you have to figure out how to fill
54:02that.
54:03Um
54:04so it is, you know, it's a very
54:06different approach
54:08than what I did.
54:09So I've spent the better part of a few
54:12years
54:13trying to relate to that reality
54:16somehow.
54:17Uh
54:18And then right when I felt like I could
54:20grasp a portion of it, came AI.
54:24>> [laughter]
54:25>> That kind of turns the the notion of
54:28like humans and drive and function into,
54:32you know, a tailspin.
54:34So now I'm like
54:36again trying to understand how I relate
54:40to it.
54:41>> Have you figured it out?
54:42>> Not even close.
54:45The only The only thing I can tell you
54:47is that I love making things. I will
54:49probably define myself as a maker.
54:51>> Okay.
54:52>> I love the physicality of things.
54:54Uh I like objects.
54:57Uh
54:57I love uh
55:00Maybe what's different this time round
55:01is
55:02I'm quite
55:04interested in like human scale and
55:06space.
55:07Uh
55:08so the the things that like
55:11these environments and the things we
55:13surround us with. Whereas like by Rita
55:15was very much about this abstract little
55:18thing that made you feel things that was
55:19this essentially invisible.
55:21>> Mhm.
55:22>> And now I'm kind of thinking about how
55:25we relate to space in a different way.
55:28Uh
55:28and I'm incorporating all the senses. So
55:32taste and touch and feel and sight.
55:35Um [snorts]
55:36So yeah, that's the
55:39that's the idea so far. Is it starting
55:42with
55:44>> that core of memory again?
55:46>> I'm trying not to be as literal this
55:49time.
55:49>> Mhm.
55:50>> So I'm trying to
55:52Uh
55:53but culture is a very important
55:55component for me.
55:57Uh
55:57and I've in regards to memory, it
56:00relates to
56:02uh
56:04how to reframe heritage.
56:06Uh
56:07so I'm
56:08you know, I'm traveling back to India a
56:10lot.
56:11>> Wow.
56:12>> Uh
56:12I'm
56:14working with craftsmen in different
56:16regards.
56:17Um
56:18So yeah, it's it it's become ins- like
56:22an instant creative outlet.
56:23>> Mhm.
56:24>> Which is I was hoping. I was hoping that
56:28I could find that spark fast enough.
56:30>> Mhm.
56:30>> Um
56:32And there I am and hopefully at the end
56:35of this year, you know, maybe I'll have
56:37something to show.
56:38>> Without trying to pull information out
56:40of you, can I ask
56:43if it has to do with furniture and
56:45interior design?
56:46>> That is a very
56:49important part of
56:52what I'm putting together.
56:53>> So with the
56:55exploration of of spaces,
56:58are there certain moments in those
57:00spaces that you're particularly tied to?
57:02Cuz I know that the same space can be
57:04used in very different ways at different
57:05times of the day, different times of the
57:07year,
57:08and different parts of the world?
57:09>> Yeah,
57:10You know, I I think I've uh um
57:14I'm in the
57:15object
57:17portion of it.
57:18>> Fine.
57:18>> Uh
57:19I think I'm interested very much in like
57:23how we're actually living.
57:24>> Okay.
57:25>> Which kind of relates to your question a
57:26bit. Is
57:28how are we moving? What are we feeling?
57:31What is the function of these
57:33uh even when you look at
57:36you know, you look at what a house cost
57:38in Miami today. Mhm. It's crazy. It's
57:40crazy. Uh looking at an apartment in
57:43central London.
57:44>> It's the same.
57:45>> So, you start to like
57:47try to understand again
57:49in 10 in 20 years from now, how are
57:51people going to live?
57:53What are they going to value? What are
57:54they going to need?
57:55>> Mhm.
57:56>> Uh and that's, you know, so I'm I'm in
57:58that very much
58:00try to understand from like a
58:03um
58:04a human place. Like how how we how are
58:07we living in 10 years from now?
58:10>> Can we both make bets on this podcast
58:12and listen to it in 10 years?
58:14>> Bet. Let's do it.
58:16>> Okay. What do you think?
58:18>> Oh, no. The my my bet's going to be uh
58:21the brand.
58:22>> Oh.
58:23>> My entire My entire bet is going to be
58:25this brand that I'm rolling out. So,
58:26that one
58:28So, you're going to have to tell me your
58:29version and then mine's going to be the
58:30brand.
58:32Tell me more of this. Tell me what
58:33you're doing in 10 years.
58:35>> I really don't know what I'm doing, but
58:37I am
58:38I have high conviction
58:39that the world will be a far better
58:41place in 10 years.
58:42>> Better place than the previous 10 years
58:44or than today?
58:46>> Both.
58:47>> Okay.
58:48>> I'm an op- optimist generally. It's not
58:50purely based on
58:53assumption. It's also based on hope.
58:55Um but I do think that
58:58technology is a beautiful thing. I think
59:00AI is going to ultimately be a beautiful
59:02thing. I think it's going to unlock
59:05abundance for more people than today.
59:08Um I think the the we live in today
59:12uh allows for beautiful moments and
59:14experiences for very few and I hope that
59:16with AI
59:17there will be more people.
59:19I don't think it's going to be a utopia
59:20where everyone is living well, but I
59:22think more people will be able to live
59:24well and I think we'll unlock more hours
59:26of the day for those people where they
59:28can
59:29do less tedious things and more things
59:32that matter to them.
59:33>> Which is a
59:34pretty close to my idea of utopia and I
59:37agree.
59:38Uh
59:38I guess the question is just is it 5 or
59:4110 or 15 or 20 years away?
59:43>> I think that will be in the hands of
59:45governments in my opinion and like it
59:47will be very different in certain
59:48countries, very different in others. We
59:50see that today already like with
59:52with great leadership some countries
59:54just
59:56unlock a whole day of the week where
59:58people can
1:00:00experience nature and be with family.
1:00:03And in other parts of the world people
1:00:04have to work
1:00:057 days a week
1:00:06just to pay the basic bills.
1:00:09>> No, I agree. I Listen, I think
1:00:11I'm a bit older than you so I
1:00:13when I grew up in Sweden as a kid
1:00:17it was a very rich, very functional
1:00:21system
1:00:22and when I you know, speak to my mother
1:00:25you could have an apartment anywhere you
1:00:27wanted.
1:00:28Nobody locked their doors. Everybody had
1:00:30money for food. There wasn't one single
1:00:32homeless person on the street.
1:00:35>> Well.
1:00:35>> And Sweden was uh
1:00:38you know, the find within the neutrality
1:00:40so there was no engagement in any
1:00:42conflicts anywhere.
1:00:44Um but it was yes, it was the
1:00:47it was based on a
1:00:49the financial reality of a of a country
1:00:53and their productivity.
1:00:54Uh
1:00:55it's not like that today.
1:00:56>> No.
1:00:58>> Uh
1:00:58and I think
1:01:00um
1:01:01Yeah, can we get there as a like a
1:01:03civilization?
1:01:05I guess
1:01:06you know, it suggests we can.
1:01:09Uh
1:01:09I do think that
1:01:13depending on where you are in the world
1:01:14culturally, there'll be other
1:01:16dilemmas tied to that.
1:01:18>> I know you're making the big bet with
1:01:20your with your business. How do you see
1:01:22people living 10 years from now?
1:01:23>> I think to your point, people will have
1:01:25more time.
1:01:26>> Mhm.
1:01:26>> Uh
1:01:27I think maybe they'll, you know, you'll
1:01:30see another movement away from cities.
1:01:33>> Mhm.
1:01:34>> If if you don't need to live in the
1:01:36center
1:01:37of a city for work,
1:01:40you know, maybe the value of that
1:01:43property changes.
1:01:45Um this idea of community I think will
1:01:48be increasingly important.
1:01:50>> Mhm.
1:01:50>> Especially if you start to change the
1:01:53the idea of where you can live.
1:01:55>> Mhm.
1:01:56>> Um
1:01:57and then I think, you know, we're
1:01:59talking about the sensorial aspects of
1:02:01life. Uh I think the realness of that
1:02:05becomes important
1:02:07for us to feel human and to be so
1:02:10taste and smell and touch and Uh
1:02:14I think art, all these things will be
1:02:17they will continue to be important in
1:02:19culture.
1:02:20>> When you say the idea of where you can
1:02:21live plus the senses, my mind
1:02:24immediately goes to the mountains.
1:02:26>> I think a lot of people will.
1:02:28>> I'm so drawn to the mountains
1:02:29>> Yeah.
1:02:30>> personally.
1:02:31>> Do you know why?
1:02:32>> Maybe cuz I grew up in London and it's
1:02:34so different and I feel this childlike
1:02:37curiosity when I'm in the mountains.
1:02:39And when I'm in London I feel nostalgia.
1:02:41I just think of my childhood.
1:02:42>> Mhm.
1:02:43>> So I feel very young when I'm in the
1:02:44mountains. I feel like I'm seeing
1:02:45everything for the first time and that's
1:02:47over and over again. Like within one
1:02:50day. It's not like, "Oh, I felt that on
1:02:52this day 6 months ago." It's just every
1:02:545 minutes in the mountains it just feels
1:02:56like
1:02:57I'm living in a movie.
1:02:58>> That's cool. Do you feel small?
1:03:00>> Yeah.
1:03:01>> Yeah. For a tall guy, that's
1:03:03>> That's cool.
1:03:03>> That's cool.
1:03:04>> And I feel like
1:03:06some things are in my control, but the
1:03:07bigger picture is completely out of my
1:03:09control quite physically and vividly cuz
1:03:11of the weather in the mountains and in
1:03:13the extreme conditions. Like the
1:03:15mountains are harsh by design.
1:03:17Um
1:03:19like
1:03:20there's like true seasons and true
1:03:21dangers that are
1:03:24so beautiful and and
1:03:26in the way they they exist.
1:03:29And I feel like that
1:03:31you have to respect the mountain to be
1:03:32in the mountain.
1:03:34You have to respect the danger it comes
1:03:35with.
1:03:36>> It's a bit like the ocean.
1:03:37>> Yeah, exactly.
1:03:39>> That's cool. I guess maybe that's where
1:03:41you will end up then.
1:03:42>> I would love that in AI world
1:03:44especially.
1:03:46On this podcast we always play a game.
1:03:48>> Tell me.
1:03:49>> of "à la poubelle" versus "fantastique".
1:03:52>> Okay.
1:03:52>> "À la poubelle" are the things we'd like
1:03:54to throw in the trash and change about
1:03:56the world that surrounds us. Could be
1:03:58simple and trivial or could be quite
1:04:00deep. And "fantastique" are the things
1:04:03we'd like to celebrate and see more of.
1:04:05Can you share a couple of things
1:04:07in each of those categories?
1:04:08>> You know, more creativity.
1:04:10>> Mhm.
1:04:11>> I think seeing especially seeing young
1:04:12people express themselves
1:04:15Uh
1:04:16I'm I'm all for that.
1:04:19Uh and in terms of the trash
1:04:22uh
1:04:23I think the thing that I would
1:04:25do off with and you know, that I have a
1:04:28that I struggle with today is kind of
1:04:31the
1:04:33how information flows.
1:04:35So, this idea of what's real and what's
1:04:37not.
1:04:38>> Mhm.
1:04:38>> Will
1:04:39I I struggle with that and it's
1:04:42something that I hope we can solve as a
1:04:43world. Uh
1:04:46because
1:04:48this the polarization that exists
1:04:51is very much about kind of the flow of
1:04:54information and in a lot of instances at
1:04:58least in my opinion
1:04:59the the truth lays you know, somewhere
1:05:02in the middle.
1:05:02>> Mhm.
1:05:03>> And and uh
1:05:05in my you know, my life I've never seen
1:05:09kind of
1:05:10uh a time where where people have such a
1:05:13hard time talking about things.
1:05:15>> I agree with that. I think especially in
1:05:16the US.
1:05:17>> I I US is the the flagrant version of it
1:05:21because
1:05:22>> there's a
1:05:24But I will tell you that
1:05:26the
1:05:27in Europe you're seeing the same things.
1:05:30We just have a different
1:05:32um we're less vocal.
1:05:35You know, there's a there's a different
1:05:36approach.
1:05:37>> That's true.
1:05:38>> The but but it exists.
1:05:40>> I like what you said about the truth
1:05:41usually exists somewhere in between.
1:05:44I think
1:05:46the way I've defined it in the past is
1:05:49the truth exists in the in the nuance
1:05:51versus the extremes on either end, you
1:05:53know?
1:05:54>> For sure.
1:05:55>> Yeah.
1:05:56>> Yeah.
1:05:57>> I like those two things a lot.
1:05:59>> Good. I pass.
1:06:00>> You more than pass. I'm learning.
1:06:03If you could leave the listeners today
1:06:05with a message just
1:06:07just today their their September day
1:06:09wherever they are in the world.
1:06:11>> I would leave them with um
1:06:15maybe just the idea that uh
1:06:18I'm really uh and the story of Byredo
1:06:22is really an example of
1:06:24kind of against all odds and that
1:06:28uh and that is the the reality. So,
1:06:30whatever people struggle with and
1:06:32whatever doubts and whatever fears
1:06:35exist, I would just say that
1:06:37there are examples of people in the
1:06:41exact same situations
1:06:43uh that were able to push through.
1:06:46>> And can I just say
1:06:47I think you're
1:06:49a really beautiful example
1:06:52of what
1:06:53success
1:06:55and even financial success can look like
1:06:59in a beautiful way during this age where
1:07:02a lot of that may come off as vulgar
1:07:05in the ways people
1:07:07interact with the world after
1:07:10selling a business and achieving amazing
1:07:12things.
1:07:14And I think it's it's a really beautiful
1:07:15thing that should be acknowledged.
1:07:17>> Thank you.
1:07:18>> Very
1:07:19>> I appreciate it.
1:07:20>> centered, calming, and generous man in
1:07:23your energy and in your presence, which
1:07:25I think is the most important thing
1:07:26actually.
1:07:27>> I I appreciate you, man. Thank you.
1:07:29>> Thank you. Thank you, Ben. I really
1:07:30appreciate your time today.
1:07:31>> All right, brother. Good see you.
1:07:33>> Good see you, too.
1:07:34>> Thank you for listening to this episode
1:07:37of The Startup Guy podcast. If you're
1:07:39keen to learn more, please follow along
1:07:42by engaging with our social channels on
1:07:44Instagram, TikTok, Spotify, YouTube, and
1:07:48Apple podcasts. And we look forward to
1:07:51seeing you next week.
1:07:53>> Merci beaucoup. À la prochaine. And a
1:07:55big hug from The Startup Guy.

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