BW - EP127—009: May 1954—The Army-McCarthy Hearings Continue With Roy Cohn's Testimony — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:02good evening this is george herman
2. 0:04recording in washington in the mccarthy
3. 0:06army hearings committee council jenkins
4. 0:08moved today from direct examination to
5. 0:10cross-examination of roy m cohn the top
6. 0:13mccarthy aide continued calm and cool as
7. 0:16mr jenkins switched from his friendly to
8. 0:18his unfriendly role cohen's answers were
9. 0:20quiet and deliberate and they formed a
10. 0:22backdrop against which a series of
11. 0:24dramatic and important clashes
12. 0:25subsequently took place on friday may 28
13. 0:28as beaches and public parks open for
14. 0:30memorial day weekend
15. 0:31families hopped in their cars turned on
16. 0:33the radio dial and heard the continuing
17. 0:35testimony of mccarthy's attorney roy
18. 0:37cohn during the army mccarthy hearings
19. 0:40cbs radio was there
20. 0:42the statement said security laws
21. 0:44carefully drawn up to protect the nation
22. 0:46are the responsibility of the executive
23. 0:48branch of the government it said they
24. 0:50could not be violated by any individual
25. 0:52who might seek to set himself above the
26. 0:54law or the president of the united
27. 0:56states that news soon percolated into
28. 0:58the hearings and for a detailed report
29. 1:00on the day's events here is bill
30. 1:02costello
31. 1:03the morning session began with committee
32. 1:05council jenkins concluding his direct
33. 1:07examination of roy cohn
34. 1:09his final questions dealing with cohn's
35. 1:11charges against the army took up the
36. 1:13peres case the case of the major in the
37. 1:16dental corps who was given an honorable
38. 1:17discharge after pleading the fifth
39. 1:19amendment clone city began warning john
40. 1:21adams in december about perez and then
41. 1:24brought the story up to mid-february
42. 1:26when perez was questioned by the
43. 1:27mccarthy subcommittee he went on
44. 1:30on the 18th
45. 1:32mr adams was in new york when major
46. 1:34perez appeared in public session the
47. 1:3618th of one month february and that's
48. 1:38the date mr adams gave me back that
49. 1:40money sir paid me that money
50. 1:42then
51. 1:43uh general zwicker appeared that
52. 1:44afternoon and i won't go into that other
53. 1:46than to say
54. 1:48uh general zwicker
55. 1:50had been cooperative with
56. 1:52representatives of the staff a
57. 1:54representative of the staff of the
58. 1:55subcommittee who had privately
59. 1:57interviewed general zwicker cohn played
60. 2:00a major role in mccarthy's crusade
61. 2:02he helped create the lavender scare
62. 2:04which claimed overseas communist black
63. 2:06male closeted government employee
64. 2:07homosexuals into passing on secrets
65. 2:10convinced that the employment of
66. 2:11homosexuals was now a threat to national
67. 2:13security president eisenhower signed an
68. 2:16executive order on april 29 1953
69. 2:19banned homosexuals from working for the
70. 2:21federal government
71. 2:23and he just
72. 2:25didn't give any answers just was quiet
73. 2:27about the whole thing cohn also saw that
74. 2:29colleague g david shine received special
75. 2:31treatment when he was drafted to the u.s
76. 2:33army in 1953.
77. 2:36he contacted military officials from the
78. 2:38secretary of the army down to shine's
79. 2:40company commander
80. 2:41and demanded that shine be given light
81. 2:43duties extra leave an exemption from
82. 2:46overseas assignment quiet and not give
83. 2:48the committee the information
84. 2:50that did not help relations between
85. 2:52senator mccarthy and mr adams at that
86. 2:54point and the senator
87. 2:56was quite annoyed about it
88. 2:58hassle over general zwicker developed it
89. 3:01was this behavior that hastened
90. 3:02mccarthy's downfall as during these
91. 3:04hearings both cohn and mccarthy claimed
92. 3:07the army was holding shine hostage to
93. 3:09squelch mccarthy's communist
94. 3:10investigations
95. 3:12to see if we could not avoid
96. 3:14the further questioning of people like
97. 3:16general zwicker and get in instead the
98. 3:20person who had given general zwicker and
99. 3:22others the orders to keep quiet
100. 3:25cohn testified from may 27th through
101. 3:27june 2nd
102. 3:28i thought injustice to general zwicker
103. 3:30and the officers involved
104. 3:32that the proper person to produce was
105. 3:34the man who had given the orders
106. 3:36silencing general zwicker and these
107. 3:38other officers and let that man tell why
108. 3:42he had ordered them to defy this sub
109. 3:44committee
110. 3:45mr adams did not agree
111. 3:48and i remember we got into uh
112. 3:50was supposed to be a short conversation
113. 3:52but we got into an extended discussion
114. 3:54of the peres case
115. 3:56in the course of which i told mr adams
116. 3:58that i had warned him about that case
117. 4:01for a period of months and that he had
118. 4:03done nothing about it he admitted that
119. 4:06he said i think he had written one
120. 4:08letter or made one phone call and had
121. 4:10forgotten to follow it up or hadn't
122. 4:12followed it up
123. 4:13then i took up the question of the
124. 4:14honorable discharge and mr adams said
125. 4:17well he just wasn't going to delay it
126. 4:18and he didn't delay it and that was that
127. 4:21uh and he said anyway
128. 4:24you seem to think the proof on perez was
129. 4:26awfully strong i don't
130. 4:29on cross-examination jenkins reverted to
131. 4:31the testimony of army witnesses
132. 4:33attempting to bring out the opposing
133. 4:35versions of various incidents he asked
134. 4:38mr cohn about a conversation with army
135. 4:40secretary stevens in the latter's office
136. 4:42october second and cohn taking issue
137. 4:45with stephen's testimony gave this
138. 4:47account
139. 4:48mr stevens stated that shine was going
140. 4:51to take basic training like everybody
141. 4:53else
142. 4:54that right after basic training mr
143. 4:56stevens had
144. 4:57planned out an assignment for shine
145. 5:00whereby shine was going to be in
146. 5:03attendance as an observer at various
147. 5:06intelligence schools of the army for the
148. 5:08purpose of reviewing
149. 5:10textbooks and
150. 5:12other matters and report directly to mr
151. 5:14stevens on that subject
152. 5:17this discussion followed
153. 5:20a
154. 5:21talk with mr stevens on that occasion in
155. 5:23which mr stevens told us but he had been
156. 5:26greatly disturbed by
157. 5:27the general partridge testimony over the
158. 5:29use of communist
159. 5:31pro-communist literature and communist
160. 5:33indoctrination literature by army
161. 5:35intelligence and in these schools
162. 5:38mr stevens also told us that a day or
163. 5:41two before october 2nd
164. 5:44he had he mr stevens had had a long talk
165. 5:48with a major whose name he had gotten
166. 5:50from us i believe teaching at an army
167. 5:54intelligence school i believe out at
168. 5:55haliburton maryland
169. 5:57that from the outline the major gave him
170. 6:00as to the type of literature they were
171. 6:02using
172. 6:03the partridge situation and other
173. 6:05reports which he had gotten
174. 6:07he the secretary was very much disturbed
175. 6:09about the whole situation
176. 6:11and that
177. 6:12he was looking forward to using shine
178. 6:16to
179. 6:17his great advantage in
180. 6:19going over these text materials and
181. 6:22going to these schools and reporting to
182. 6:25mr stevens
183. 6:26uh
184. 6:27i believe sir it's i have no
185. 6:31clear recollection but it's perfectly
186. 6:32possible or probable but i
187. 6:35asked mr stevens at that point if during
188. 6:38the basic training wherever that was
189. 6:40some arrangement could be made for staff
190. 6:42members to
191. 6:43contact mr shine in case of an emergency
192. 6:46or in case there was something which we
193. 6:47might need for him
194. 6:50that uh
195. 6:51to the best of my recollection is the
196. 6:53substance of what occurred on that
197. 6:55occasion and there are some prior
198. 6:56discussions with mr stevens about this
199. 6:58shine assignment which we have not
200. 7:00covered if you want to i will if you
201. 7:01don't but on october 2nd you did suggest
202. 7:05to him that there might be occasions
203. 7:07when you would want to consult with mr
204. 7:09shine about committee work that's
205. 7:11perfectly possible sir and i do not deny
206. 7:13it
207. 7:14so mr cohn
208. 7:18uh
209. 7:20that makes
210. 7:22some
211. 7:23eight or ten times up to that time
212. 7:26october 2nd
213. 7:29that you had talked to somebody in the
214. 7:31pentagon
215. 7:32about david shine
216. 7:35being made available to you doesn't it
217. 7:37i value commission party
218. 7:40near the end of the morning session mr
219. 7:42jenkins asked for mr cohn's version of
220. 7:44the angry episode at fort monmouth
221. 7:46october twentieth when cohen was
222. 7:48excluded from a secret laboratory and
223. 7:50was charged with saying he would wreck
224. 7:52the army in reprisal jenkins asked him
225. 7:56[Music]
226. 7:59and i read further from his testimony mr
227. 8:01cohn same page of the transcript
228. 8:04quoting quoting mr cohn
229. 8:07i don't understand why you let
230. 8:09communists work in here and you won't
231. 8:10let me in did you say that that sounds a
232. 8:12lot more like me sounds a lot like you
233. 8:14that sounds a lot more like the previous
234. 8:16thing yes sir that declaration of war
235. 8:18you mean doesn't sound like roy cohn
236. 8:20when he's mad no sir what sounds like me
237. 8:22when i'm mad is they let communists in
238. 8:24here and they don't let us in yes sir
239. 8:26pulling further
240. 8:28let's see now if this sounds like you
241. 8:31i have been cleared for classified
242. 8:34information
243. 8:35that sounds like me and that was well
244. 8:37had you been cared for classified
245. 8:38information with school not only that
246. 8:40sir i had a specific secret clearance
247. 8:42from the defense department
248. 8:44i have access to fbi files when the
249. 8:48when i wanna want them did you say that
250. 8:50colonel below is a little bit mistaken
251. 8:52in terminology sir and i what what what
252. 8:54then was the terminology about the fbi i
253. 8:57don't recall the exact statement i can
254. 8:59tell you this mr jenkins
255. 9:02i did not say that i currently have
256. 9:05access to fbi files or that i can see
257. 9:08them whenever i want them neither did
258. 9:11you say that now mr cohen get his word
259. 9:12what is he saying
260. 9:13i have access to fbi files when i want
261. 9:16them did you see that i did not say i
262. 9:19have access to fbi files when i want
263. 9:22them then i ask you what you did say all
264. 9:24right
265. 9:25and this is important to me and i hope i
266. 9:26may be permitted on this one point to
267. 9:28explain
268. 9:29if any time i cut you off miss conan i
269. 9:31don't mean to do it you do not cut me
270. 9:33off very well very well you you call me
271. 9:35down all right now what did you say
272. 9:37about the fbi no right or reason to call
273. 9:39you down sir i want to answer every
274. 9:41question on this particular point
275. 9:43uh it is important
276. 9:46i did not say and i could not have said
277. 9:49that i have access to fbi files
278. 9:53because sir since i have come with this
279. 9:55committee i have not had access to fbi
280. 9:59files and i have never seen an fbi file
281. 10:04and i would like to make that very clear
282. 10:06under oath to end any statement by
283. 10:09anybody
284. 10:10that i
285. 10:11while with this committee have seen
286. 10:13access have seen fbi files or have had
287. 10:17that is not true
288. 10:19before i came with the subcommittee sir
289. 10:22i was with the department of justice for
290. 10:24a number of years dealing with
291. 10:26prosecutions of communists and
292. 10:28subversives and spies
293. 10:30i did have access to fbi files
294. 10:34i did use fbi files extensively
295. 10:37were not for fbi files we could not have
296. 10:40obtained a single conviction