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Busting The Most DAMAGING Protein & Fitness Myths! | Menno Henselmans — Transcript

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0:00we found uh no benefits above uh the
0:03requirements for protein synthesis so
0:04above like8 gram uh per pound un satiety
0:08for satiety hunger a li bitum energy
0:10intake like all measures waist shakes
0:12are not satiating at all a lot of people
0:14actually get hungry from a waist Shake
0:15if you're like fasted you're like oh no
0:17I'm not that hungry have a way Shake A
0:19lot of people actually that more
0:20triggers more appetite it doesn't have
0:22like a compensatory response where
0:23afterwards you're full and you don't eat
0:27anymore folks Dr Mike here for the RP
0:30strength YouTube channel and today we
0:32have in the studio with us an esteemed
0:35colleague friend and person who I wish I
0:37looked more like every single day that I
0:39have to stare in the mirror at this
0:41disgusting ridiculous mangled
0:45face men henselman glad to be here uh do
0:49you just say that on every podcast or
0:50are you really glad to be here I say
0:53it's on every podcast but in this case
0:55it's true oh my God man it's good to
0:58have you let's get cracking right into
0:59to the meat and potatoes you earlier
1:02made a social media post where you said
1:05if I ever see Milo wolf around any
1:09amount of protein we're going to be fist
1:12fighting each other MH and I want you to
1:15explain that I think I said fisting not
1:18fist
1:19fighting wow that really does change
1:21things but nonetheless still violent
1:23still very personal and still
1:26controversial about how much protein
1:28that YouTube recommend so just to put
1:30this in perspective we had Milo on the
1:31channel a while ago he said some
1:33emerging data suggests that for some
1:35folks it might be a good idea to eat
1:37something like 1.25 grams of protein per
1:40pound of body weight and maybe even a
1:42little bit more in some cases you're
1:44typically of the perspective that for
1:46many cases if not most even as little as
1:4975 grams per pound per day of protein
1:52can cover all almost all if not all of
1:53your bases and I'm like the coward that
1:57I am at a gram per pound right in the
1:58middle and it's like I have Mom and Dad
2:01in this case two dads and you're in that
2:03sort of fight where you're at first
2:05yelling and then like you start throwing
2:06pillows but I'm just waiting for like
2:08you know the uh the dishes to start
2:10flying explain this to me in a way that
2:13with my limited intellect I can
2:15understand where do you think Milo is
2:17coming from where are you coming from
2:19and let's put some daylight between the
2:20two hit me from what I understand about
2:23Milo's perspective is that he relies
2:26primarily on the Japanese meta analysis
2:28from 2020 I believe
2:31and that one found well technically all
2:34it found is that there are benefits
2:36above 1.3 gram per kilogram per day and
2:39they found that there wasn't really a um
2:42a cutoff point it seemed in the data but
2:44the analysis also didn't do an actual
2:47breakpoint analysis so they didn't
2:48actually check like what's the maximum
2:51point at which we find benefits for
2:54muscle growth or lean body mass lean
2:55body mass is what most of these met
2:57analysis you look at so that's also good
2:58to realize it's not necessarily even
3:00muscle growth
3:03and these data have many many many
3:06problems with them so for one just the
3:08technical point that they technically
3:10didn't look at whether there are
3:12benefits above usually what I recommend
3:15is 08 gram per pound or 1.8 gram per
3:17kilogram per day they didn't actually
3:19look at if there are benefits above that
3:21they just found that the model said
3:23there is a positive Association
3:25essentially between higher intakes above
3:281.3 G per G per day and it seemed that
3:31they went all the way up to what uh I
3:34think Milo said was 1.3 G per pound
3:36something like that when not adjusting
3:39for body weight gained both lifters and
3:42non-li saw more hypertrophy as they
3:44consumed more protein all the way to 1.3
3:47G per pound however in non-li once you
3:50then controlled for body weight gained
3:52that relationship kind of went away like
3:54past like I
3:56think 7 G per pound then you no weight
4:00doesn't really matter right however in
4:02lifters when even when adjusting for
4:04body weight gained higher protein
4:07intakes led to more growth all the way
4:08to 1.3 grams per
4:10pound it was there was still an element
4:13of diminishing returns wherein the slope
4:15was kind of Greater up until around that
4:17previous figure of 1.6 gr per kilogram
4:20or8 roughly and then afterwards it kind
4:22of the slope diminished but it was still
4:24positive you you could make that
4:27argument based on that data based on
4:28those data I think it's not entirely
4:31unreasonable but looking at those data
4:34alone and not looking at the other data
4:36especially within with the many flaws of
4:38that met analysis to me doesn't make a
4:40lot of sense we can go into like Greg
4:41Knuckles Point as well later if you want
4:44I think that's a bit more compelling
4:46but you want to just list some of the
4:49major um limitations for the metal yes
4:52and I want you to list them in a way
4:53that attacks Milo's character personally
4:57right seriously let's get the let's get
4:59the flaw scientifically yeah so for one
5:03they didn't really look at a breakpoint
5:05that's a big one and that's particularly
5:07problematic because they didn't report
5:08anything that was it was honestly just a
5:10bad analysis they didn't report model
5:13fit statistics r squared model fit they
5:16just showed the the line they didn't
5:20even show the effect sizes the data
5:21points like normally you show what the
5:23actual data points are and then you show
5:24what kind of what the line that your
5:26model Works through those data points
5:29right and they didn't even show the data
5:31points they just showed the model fit
5:32line which doesn't tell you much at all
5:35and it's kind of like just trust me bro
5:38now going into the actual limitations of
5:40the data they got in in the first place
5:42is that they included weight loss
5:44studies and quite a lot of them were
5:45weight loss studies in fact they I think
5:47they said at some point in the paper
5:49five out of 104 something like five out
5:52of 105 papers were actually completely
5:56equal in conditions all the other papers
5:58had at least one confounding Factor so
6:01very often the higher protein intake
6:03group had a higher energy intake group
6:04because the control group just didn't
6:06supplement protein so they looked at
6:08protein supplementation versus placebo
6:11basically nothing let me describe that
6:13to the folks listening what you're
6:14trying to say if you try to see which
6:17amount of protein will get me more
6:19jacked or get me less muscle loss but
6:22your study design is one group eats X
6:24and another group eats X Plus
6:26supplementary protein you're now
6:28comparing two conditions not just
6:30protein differences but protein and
6:32calorie differences and so we have to
6:33ask the question of scientists is are
6:35they getting more jacked because they're
6:36eating more protein or is it the
6:38calories because then you would need a
6:39third group potentially that had extra
6:42protein uh uh for the first group
6:44regular second group extra protein third
6:46group extra carbs to equalize the
6:48calories and then you could really test
6:50is it the calories or is it the protein
6:52and so that wasn't done in many of the
6:55studies or I assume almost all of them
6:57and then thus it's very difficult to see
6:59as is it really the extra protein doing
7:01the work yes another big factor was
7:06nutrient timing now a lot of people will
7:08say nutrient timing doesn't matter but
7:10there are actually a couple studies
7:12where they supplement additional protein
7:14so most of these studies all of them
7:15actually they look at habitual protein
7:18intake in one group habitual protein
7:19intake in the other group and then one
7:20of the groups supplements additional
7:22protein on top of that like a protein
7:23supplement whey protein or whatever
7:26usually they supplement that pre- or
7:27post-workout mhm or an additional meal
7:30so you're increasing meal frequency or
7:32you have post-workout supplementation a
7:34lot of people in evidence-based Fitness
7:35will say that doesn't matter and largely
7:38I agree with that like at least total
7:39daily protein intake is more important
7:41than when you consume it but it's more
7:43of a spectrum to me than simply saying
7:44it doesn't matter and there are actually
7:47at least three studies where the
7:50additional protein intake group ended up
7:52not having a higher total protein intake
7:55but they did have the benefit of the
7:57nutrient timing like post-workout
7:58protein supplementation and they still
8:00got better gains and that can happen
8:02because of these habitual intakes like
8:04you just get a bunch of people you tell
8:06half of them add some protein shake to
8:09your daily intake and it turns out yeah
8:11just because of life or whatever they
8:13their normal protein intake decreased
8:16and therefore or the other Pro other
8:17group had an increase in protein intake
8:19because it's it's not controlled in
8:20these studies it's just habitual intake
8:23and then it can happen that you do the
8:25study and as researchers you're often
8:27very sad to find out if also how it
8:29happen at the end oh the group that we
8:32wanted to consume more protein didn't
8:33actually consume more protein which kind
8:36of invalidates your whole study but in
8:38some of these studies you find that
8:39still they got better gains so that's a
8:42pretty robust Way by accident to measure
8:44the fact that nutrin timing at least
8:47seen in one of two ways one Perry
8:49workout nutrition or to an additional
8:51meal maybe you eat two or three times a
8:53day now I eat three or four times a day
8:56we're unable to tell if it's like is it
8:58the extra calories is it the extra meal
9:00frequency or is it the attention to the
9:02par workout window that is really doing
9:05the heavy lifting to actually make folks
9:07have better gains or less impactful
9:10muscle losses on a fat loss phase yep
9:12and if you look at the studies that have
9:14controlled for these things especially
9:16nutrient timing interestingly energy
9:18intake doesn't scream uh doesn't scream
9:22out to me like a a huge confounding
9:24variable if you look at the studies
9:26where nutrient timing was controlled so
9:27they just increased protein intake not
9:29like habitual intake plus protein shake
9:31usually they actually just told them aim
9:32for this versus aim for this mhm in
9:34those studies and there are about 45 of
9:38them there is none not a single study
9:41that has found benefits over the 1.6
9:43gram per kilogram per day okay so let's
9:47open that up super super quick that's a
9:49big problem because one of the accurate
9:53critiques of the meta analytic approach
9:55of meta analyses as a class of research
9:58exploration is that sometimes through
10:00interesting processes of kind of
10:01statistical aggregation you can get a
10:04look from a men analysis that no one
10:07study actually found and it it wasn't
10:09even that oh well this is like a
10:12situation where if you look at one word
10:13at a time nothing makes sense but if you
10:16look at a whole sentence it makes sense
10:17it's not one of those it's actually just
10:19statistical uh uh anomaly that occurs
10:22and then you end up being like Oh
10:24there's something there but when there's
10:26a very well-designed 10 studies inside
10:28of a subset of 100 that are meta
10:30analyzed and those 10 studies exactly
10:32ask the very rigorous question you're
10:34asking and all of them say it doesn't
10:36work is really difficult to figure out
10:39how that situation uh could actually
10:41play out and so maybe there is something
10:44emerging from the statistical noise that
10:46is true but we have to be guarded with
10:48the idea that like well actually man
10:50maybe there's not you know what I mean
10:53it's it's sort of similar to to kind of
10:54saying you know there are people that
10:56take multivitamins and don't and let's
10:58say the multivitamin people
10:59have like like a penis size that's 8 in
11:01larger right but then you actually give
11:04people a multivitamin and measure their
11:06penis size for 8 weeks and just nothing
11:08happens to it that you got to be like
11:10man like we tested the exact thing we
11:13were asking that didn't work are we
11:15really comfortable in concluding for
11:16meta analytic which is kind of a rough
11:18proxy that This Thing Really Works
11:21that's a problem yes yes absolutely
11:24especially because since our original
11:27metaanalysis which also absolutely
11:29wasn't perfect but it confirmed simply
11:32exactly what I expected from the the
11:35fact of that we had at least 45 studies
11:37showing okay none of these studies
11:38actually find the benefits over 1.6 gr
11:40per kilogram per day and then we did a
11:42breakpoint analysis which found exactly
11:441.6 gr per kilogram per day as the most
11:47likely break point so the point at which
11:49additional protein intake no longer
11:50further increased lean body mass gains
11:53then I was like oh okay that's exactly
11:55as
11:56expected so a lot of people have looked
11:58at like armat analysis versus the newer
12:00met analysis I think both we our met met
12:03analysis so we I was part of a met
12:05analysis oh so it's fucking biased yes
12:08it's just me defending my original
12:11biases and Milo coming out and me not
12:14wanting to believe when the researchers
12:16were doing the test tube stuff do you
12:17walk into the lab and hand them a dollar
12:19bill and you're like more in this test
12:21tube yeah that's how science work for
12:24the meta we don't have to do that we
12:26just change the numbers in the
12:27spreadsheet even easier do you give
12:29yourself a dollar then so if it's like
12:321.6 um or they it's like maybe 2.2 and
12:35I'm just like 1.6 science that's it
12:38that's all there all right folks that's
12:40been
12:41fun all right yes okay uh heard loud and
12:44clear no I can play devil's advocate for
12:46um for my own views of course please for
12:48one the 1.6 I recommend 1.8 right to to
12:52be clear I think 1.6 is pretty much
12:54where the data show at this point we no
12:56longer see significant benefits but um
12:58to your point this is grams per kilogram
13:00yes gr per Kil so for people in the
13:02Civilized world that use pounds and have
13:05American Eagles as pets at home that's 8
13:09grams per pound per day 7 7 is where we
13:12no longer see significant benefits in uh
13:16randomized control trials that
13:17controlled for nutrient timing the very
13:19exact kind of studies you want to do to
13:20see if eating more protein will actually
13:22get you more jacked yeah but you could
13:25argue you could make a very reasonable
13:27argument GRE Knuckles just made that
13:28argument part that even though none of
13:31these individual studies find a benefit
13:33some of the studies which didn't have
13:35nutrient timing they did find a benefit
13:37plus if we aggregate all of these
13:39studies together we do see some trends
13:42that the effect sizes tend to be greater
13:43in the higher protein groups even though
13:45individually none of the studies that's
13:46statistically significant okay they have
13:50pretty small sample sizes you know train
13:52lifters eight we study how much muscle
13:53growth are you going to get okay they
13:55get maybe a little bit more gains in one
13:56of the groups it's hard to detect yeah
13:58it's there's a lot of variant there so
14:00it's like if you have a ruler that
14:01measures only in integer inches but
14:04something in increased by 2 cm which is
14:07uh 2.54 cm is one inch you would
14:10actually conclude from that study that
14:12like nothing happened but like 2
14:13centimet is damn near almost an inch and
14:15so it you would be finding a result you
14:17basically your stud is not powered
14:19enough to detect the difference exactly
14:20and we already know the difference is
14:22quite small from eating plenty of
14:24protein to eating extra plenty like if
14:26you're eating it for years and you're
14:27training really hard it is worth to get
14:29an extra five or 10 percent gains which
14:31is kind of a big deal especially if
14:32you're Advanced that's kind of how the
14:34understanding goes yeah yes yes so I
14:36probably want to do a new met analysis
14:38based on especially Greg Knuckles
14:39critique Milo wolfes studied not so much
14:41The Meta that he uh is there something
14:43you don't like about Japanese people
14:45that you want to tell us about on this
14:47channel I like uh I like the researchers
14:49I like the fact in particular that they
14:52essentially admitted that their methods
14:53were not so good and they did another
14:55meta analysis afterwards on strength
14:57development and they switched
14:59essentially to our method which excluded
15:01weight loss studies and then they found
15:03that for strength development maximum
15:05gains occur at 1.5 gram per kilogram per
15:08day so even a little bit lower
15:09technically speaking than the 1.6 we we
15:11do know strength training probably on
15:13mechanistic grounds does not require as
15:15much protein to have the whole process
15:16go to
15:17maximum yes but at least theoretically
15:20if there was substantial additional
15:22muscle growth that should translate into
15:24greater strength development in the long
15:26term yeah again in short term you might
15:28not see that effect so again there is
15:32some uh room for debate there but it's
15:34pretty striking that the number is
15:35almost exactly the same like 1.5 1.6
15:38yeah so and again none of the individual
15:41studies find statistically significantly
15:43greater muscle growth or strength
15:44development or muscle growth when we
15:47control for nutrient timing and even
15:49when you don't control for nutrient
15:50timing there are again like 45 studies
15:52and there are three or four that find
15:55benefits of higher intakes now one
15:57additional major limitation of all these
15:58ual intake studies is basically what
16:02people think happens is so protein
16:04intake 1.6 other group consumes 2.2 this
16:07group has more gains therefore 2.2 is
16:10better that is not the case in one of
16:12these studies with habitual intakes
16:13which all the Met analyses look at I
16:15don't know why that is I addressed it
16:16when we did The Meta analysis as well
16:18it's easier to study I guess but what
16:20we're interested in is look you target
16:221.6 I Target 2.2 and then we see who
16:25gets better results right and then with
16:27whole group of people not just one
16:28individual
16:29if I look at group of people consuming
16:321.6 habitually like at their normal
16:35intake that means 1.6 is the
16:39average that's usually normally
16:41distributed which means half the people
16:43in that study are consuming less than
16:451.6 gr per kilogram per day so if there
16:48are benefits of the 2.2 it could very
16:50well be the case that all of those
16:51benefits are from the 50% of people that
16:54weren't even consuming the average
16:56intake to begin with that makes sense so
16:59in essence what you're saying is it
17:02could be that 2.2 is better on the
17:04average but mostly that's because when
17:06you compare to 1.6 a ton of those people
17:08that are eating like one in the 1.6
17:11average are dragging down the curve and
17:12if you just eliminate the really nasty
17:14low intakes which most of the 2.2 people
17:16have that's where you get most of the
17:17benefits it's kind of like um if you
17:20take Runners of very different running
17:21speeds and you put like a rabid bear
17:23behind them that runs at like 10 m/
17:26second um it's not that you need to run
17:28much faster than that it's that if you
17:29run any slower you get eaten and so much
17:32much less than 1.6 could be the real
17:34problem bringing the 1.6 down
17:36potentially yes especially in these
17:38habitual intake studies yeah because
17:41you're not you're not looking at 1.6
17:42versus 2.2 you're looking at a
17:44distribution of people with average 1.6
17:47versus average 2.2 corre correct there's
17:48also multiple confounding factors or
17:50people who take in 2.2 typically are
17:53demographically more interested in
17:55optimizing hypertrophy and maybe
17:56sleeping better training better more
17:58attention to detail ta they've seen
17:59better gains and thus have jumped on the
18:01wagon of gaining more protein because
18:03they have better genetics cuz you have
18:05shit gains either way you're kind of
18:06like fuck this um dope can you tell us a
18:09little bit more about Greg Knuckles
18:10recent articles excellent article
18:12Stronger by science everyone should go
18:13read it if you have 50 hours if not just
18:15read the first several paragraph where
18:16Greg is kind enough to summarize uh the
18:19article's findings in an awesome table I
18:21mean Stronger by science is just like
18:22just an amazing resource go check it out
18:24and so what did what did Greg do this
18:26slightly different than Milo well
18:27actually just what did what did the
18:29summary that you can give of of Greg's
18:30insight and what do you think about it
18:32personally is Greg still one of these
18:33just totally stupid people that just
18:35can't reason about protein although he
18:38is real smart but about protein just
18:40dumb as rocks yeah so Milo's argument
18:42rested pretty much entirely on finding
18:44out there was another Japanese meta
18:46analysis that seemingly found benefits
18:48of higher inex which is good right it's
18:49good that he surfaced that because
18:51people were just to his point citing
18:53only exclusively the older meta and just
18:55never even recognize the new one exists
18:56which maybe for good reason but maybe
18:58like should be aware of it yes um then I
19:01would say you know he didn't recognize
19:03the fact that the same researchers using
19:04better methods found at least for
19:06strength development that the um the
19:09earlier results of ours was were very
19:11neatly replicated sure and then what
19:13Greg Knuckles did funny enough is he
19:15looked at yet another met analysis that
19:17nobody looked at Nunes atal in 2022 if
19:20I'm not mistaken now where are they from
19:22Nunes
19:23at um I think it was a mixed group I
19:26think the lead offer is Brazilian if I'm
19:28not m do we really trust the Brazilians
19:30as a people I mean um that's actually
19:33honestly not uh an entirely unfair point
19:36when it when it comes to exercise
19:38science studies because there have been
19:39multiple instances especially by the
19:41Matos barbalo and Pao gentil where those
19:44research groups have been implicated in
19:47um I think actually Greg Knuckles said
19:49that um what is it statistically
19:52improbable data patterns I call it
19:54statistical malf yes uh so but I mean uh
19:58Liv in Brazil Brazil is great they're
20:00very dedicated very into fitness a lot
20:02of good researchers there love Fitness
20:04um and in this case a meta analysis it's
20:06not like one of those studies and none
20:08of these researchers were implicated in
20:10Anye whole thing people I'm just trying
20:12to stir the fucking pot for no reason so
20:14let's exactly let's uh assume that all
20:16the data were well done it was we have
20:18every reason to believe that it was all
20:19well done yeah actually one of the
20:21offers on the new met analysis new at
20:23all was also on armat analysis steart
20:25Phillips he's also great yes Ste
20:27Phillips uh um if he ever ceases to
20:30exist I believe all protein will also
20:32cease to exist because he is connected
20:34to the protein force in such a deep way
20:37yeah so there was a a much better
20:39analysis but they didn't really perform
20:41a breakpoint analysis they looked at
20:42kind of categories and they found that
20:45the people that ended up with higher
20:46protein intakes than 1.6 get get better
20:49gains than the people that ended up with
20:50protein intakes in the range of 1.3 to
20:521.6 mhm but again you don't know if it's
20:55the benefits going up to 1.6 that make
20:58the difference or if there are benefits
20:59to higher intakes so Greg Knuckles took
21:02the data from that mat analysis
21:04reanalyzed it in a much better manner
21:06really good very compelling math
21:08analysis I would argue I would even dare
21:10say it's the first time I've seen
21:12evidence that made me question like oh
21:13shit maybe actually there are really
21:15benefits of more than 1.8 gram per
21:17kilogram more than 0.8 gram per
21:20pound and I actually have no critiques
21:23at all on the way he did the analysis
21:26the only issue is that he took the data
21:28from the nunal Met analysis which again
21:31is data where pretty much all the
21:33protein studies are lumped together no
21:35control for energy intake no control for
21:37nutrient timing and again looking only
21:40at these studies where they had habitual
21:41intake versus habitual intake plus
21:43protein intake and the data on those
21:46studies are a lot more positive than the
21:49data that controls as I said for
21:51nutrient timing and they looked at
21:53groups where it's you target this you
21:55target this so at this point I'm
21:58actually not entirely sure I'm working
22:00on um like an updated met analysis where
22:04we specifically look at the controlled
22:05studies with 1.6 or higher intakes and
22:09see if there is some benefit that we can
22:11in a met analysis tease out showing that
22:14there are some benefits to higher
22:15intakes Greg Knuckles said based on his
22:17data analysis the break point is more
22:19likely to be two grams per
22:21kilogram and it's going to be somewhere
22:23in the range of I think 1.7 to 2.3 or
22:272.4 even
22:29um which is also quite a wide range but
22:32he said the most likely break point is 2
22:34gram per kilogram now breakpoint meaning
22:37eating any more than this almost
22:38certainly does not cause any better
22:40gains yes and again statistically that
22:43holds up entirely the only question is
22:45is that because in these studies they
22:46have better nutrient timing higher
22:47energy intakes or if it's really the
22:49protein intake there's actually an
22:51interesting it's not a formal
22:53subanalysis but it's a qualitative
22:55examination of data that you can do that
22:56I'm a real big fan of when you have lots
22:59of um studies examining a certain
23:01subject what you can do is not not even
23:05not even formal subgroup analysis what
23:06you can do is take all the studies and
23:08at least heris rank them on the
23:11qualitative strength of their methods
23:13like which one of these are the best
23:14controlled most rigorous have the best
23:15internal validity at least and hopefully
23:17external yeah and then when you get a
23:19ranking like that then you actually rank
23:21out next to them their roughly the
23:23effect sizes or their findings and you
23:25try to ask the question of like as the
23:27studies get better better controlled in
23:29the sample of let's say 50 studies where
23:31is the trend for the results cuz often
23:33times there is no Trend and then you're
23:35like Okay cool so like um we're actually
23:37whatever the meta analysis says is
23:39probably the directionality of the data
23:41it's really really unfortunate if you
23:42find that the um data gets uh you know
23:45less convincing the better control is
23:47that you're then you know you're dealing
23:48with very poor data quality analytic
23:49quality and then and that's when you say
23:51like this meta analysis is something we
23:52just just should probably not be looking
23:54at but sometimes and very often what
23:56ends up happening is when you have uh
23:59ranked uh Studies by how good the
24:02studies are you have either a
24:04dissipation of the trend or an
24:05improvement in the trend if it's
24:07dissipation it really is like dude you
24:09guys this is probably statistical noise
24:11there's very unlikely to be anything
24:12here if it's Improvement of the trend
24:14it's like well the better the study the
24:15more we find that there's something
24:17there there's probably something there
24:19like if you think you see a needle in a
24:20hay stack and the closer you look you're
24:22like there's a needle versus the closer
24:24you look and you're like I think I don't
24:25see the needle anymore but when I back
24:27up I definitely think I see a need you
24:28ain't there ain't no needle there you're
24:30just losing your mind that happens in a
24:32bunch of different sciences and so in
24:34this case if if we did one of those
24:36you're pretty confident that we would
24:38find that the higher formal controls we
24:40add to the study the less likely it's
24:42discover that higher protein is better
24:44yeah I'm certainly open to the
24:46possibility of higher intakes having
24:48like a marginal
24:50benefit but I would say that we should
24:53have found that more consistently in
24:55individual studies at least yeah and we
24:58have a lot of studies now on vegan diets
24:59finding surprisingly small effects like
25:02much smaller effects than we anticipated
25:04say 10 years ago which also suggest that
25:07like even the 1.6 or 1.8 which I
25:09recommend is often already enough with
25:11vegetarian or vegan diets which again
25:14also suggests it's already pretty safe
25:17because if you were just if that was
25:18just like n kind of on a threshold and
25:20you significantly reduce the protein
25:22quality which happens in a vegan diet
25:23you would expect significantly worse
25:26gains yeah that's a very good way to go
25:27about it Mena what do your kind of
25:29summary take your current position on
25:32protein recommendation um recognizing
25:35Milo's insights your own insights and
25:37Greg knuckle's recent um summary where
25:40do you tend to give like can you I would
25:43like two things from you how much
25:45protein do I need to eat if I just want
25:47to get awesome gains not have to worry
25:49and not have to turn my life into a
25:50giant protein feeding session and two if
25:54I'm like just have no friends no one
25:57cares about me at all all I have is the
25:59gym every gram of gains counts to me how
26:02much protein should I be eating to know
26:04with good margin that there's no new
26:07meta that's going to come out and say
26:09look you kind of pissed away marginally
26:11the last year and a half of your
26:13training I would say that for almost all
26:16populations the 1.8 gram per kilogram
26:190.8 gr per pound is going to be
26:21sufficient so if I weigh 200 lb I eat
26:23160 gr of protein or more and like
26:26that's your minimum daily intake minimum
26:28at least 50% of that has to come from
26:30high quality sources and you have to
26:32distribute it across at least three
26:33meals with some reasonable nutrient
26:35timing the workout has to be you're not
26:37training fasted at least within a few
26:39hours after the workout or let's say
26:41within a 5H hour intermeal window uh you
26:44need to pre and the post-workout meals
26:46okay so that's the bottom end yes okay
26:49and if you consume that's not the
26:51Target no that's a minimum Target
26:54minimum Target yes so most people end up
26:56with higher intakes anyway yes
26:58which already buffers in some um there's
27:01an automatic buffer essentially when you
27:03um formulate it that way yeah but you
27:05don't want to get into telling your like
27:08RP diet coach app like I'm going to I'm
27:10200 lb I'm going to eat 160 uh you're
27:13going to want 160 to be like get better
27:16eat that every time and it had better be
27:17high quality and you had better get your
27:19timing right so what's a comfortable
27:22buffer that you're going to tell people
27:24that like look okay yes it's 160 for 200
27:26lb people if I eat 180
27:28and I get my neutrient time is okay and
27:31I Zig when I should have zagged a couple
27:33times is that going to save me or do you
27:35need to go to
27:36200 I would say if every gram counts you
27:40don't want to wait until there's another
27:42meta analysis looking at the effect of
27:43study quality on these met analyses like
27:45an Arbiter then I would go with the GRE
27:48Knuckles two gram per kilogram so which
27:50is almost a gram per pound yeah and you
27:53could go with a gr per pound if you're
27:54like even more like look I don't even
27:56want a chance uh that maybe some new
27:58study comes out as well and then there's
27:59a new math analysis and turns out yeah
28:01actually that there was like a 5%
28:03increase in gains um it's it's possible
28:06so the thing with the range is that
28:09we're not just looking at the effect of
28:12okay the the optimal intake is likely
28:13here most most of the variance between
28:16these numbers comes from the uncertainty
28:18have that we have from the data like the
28:19data are limited yes right so it's not
28:21like gr and I come to a different number
28:24and it's it's either this or it's that
28:26number it's like we both come to to
28:28arrange essentially and Greg says I
28:31think we should be here and I say I
28:34think this is most likely enough when
28:36you add when you account for all of
28:38these confounding factors but if you're
28:40like hey I don't care about any of that
28:42I just want to make absolutely sure I
28:43don't care about the data or for what
28:46reason if I absolutely want to maximize
28:48muscle growth I would probably go with
28:49the break points from gr current gr's
28:51current analysis which is two G per
28:53kilogram two gam per kilogram roughly a
28:55gram per pound and to be extra safe and
28:58then so eating more than a gram per
29:00pound can you see a situation where
29:01drug-free bodybuilders in the last
29:03several weeks of contest prep on a very
29:04low calorie diet could benefit from more
29:07protein than that still or is that to
29:08you like really possible but stretching
29:11expectations very much stretching I
29:13would say the whole idea of higher
29:16energy intakes being necessary and
29:17energy deficit is really not well
29:18supported higher protein intakes
29:20necessary and low energy deficit yeah
29:23okay there's there's direct research and
29:26at least in untrained individuals
29:27showing it's not case yeah in trained
29:29individuals we don't have a good study
29:31that essentially does a triple
29:32interaction effect right we're not just
29:34looking at is there a higher protein
29:36intake in trains versus or in training
29:38versus nontraining individuals but then
29:40also does that interact with the effect
29:43of energy intake as well so it's like if
29:45you're training and you're in energy
29:46deficit then it's there's a further
29:48increase that's very difficult to find
29:49in studies yeah and current data simply
29:52don't support it yet it's not an
29:54unreasonable hypothesis but it also
29:56doesn't really mechanistically follow
29:57like lot of people have some intuitive
29:59idea of like oh yeah makes sense because
30:00it prevents uh muscle loss or like then
30:03your body doesn't have to oxidize
30:04protein protein oxidation and breakdown
30:06they don't actually normally increase
30:08much in energy deficit and if you're
30:09like woefully deficient it can but
30:12normally what happens is your body just
30:14Tunes down the protein symphysis yeah
30:16and if you think about it okay so
30:18there's less protein symphysis protein
30:19breakdown levels are the same then
30:21theoretically you could actually need
30:23less protein yeah sure we're not going
30:24to pull too much on that threat we're
30:26going to get cancelled for that one uh
30:28that is very insightful so basically you
30:30would say sort of like 08 grams per
30:33pound if you're doing a pretty good job
30:34and you need to be sure you're doing
30:36fine and then uh roughly a gram per
30:40pound uh if you really just do not want
30:43to be on the wrong side of this yeah
30:45fright train of protein
30:49controversy there are a few categories
30:51which likely need the higher end of that
30:53maybe even more okay vegans uh people on
30:56gear I think actually funny enough I'm
30:59I'm known as the low protein guy but for
31:01people on gear I'm actually I actually
31:02recommend very high I don't like the
31:04term people on gear and I'll tell you
31:06why we used to call them homeless people
31:10but now the politically correct term is
31:12people experiencing homelessness I don't
31:13like that because it irritates my
31:15right-wing Supremacy Vibe and so I
31:18actually do not like to call them people
31:20on gear I like to call them uh hopeless
31:23degenerate steroid addicts and I never
31:26abbreviate right okay so hopeless
31:29degenerate steroid addict probably needs
31:31a little bit more protein in fact not a
31:33little bit a lot more but that's a
31:34personal hypothesis you have which has
31:36almost no support on the
31:38data um we have data on prote symphysis
31:42in people on gear okay and it goes up
31:45massively so it's uh data that's
31:48inferenced not for real world data but
31:50inferential data based on physiological
31:52understanding of cellular processes Plus
31:56in the absence of it data on how much
31:59protein intake is required to maximize
32:00muscle growth in this case shocker
32:03Shocker from the evidence-based guy I
32:06actually think it makes sense to look at
32:07the protein the protein intakes of
32:09professional bodybuilders sure of course
32:10next best thing right you look at uh
32:13physiological rational you look at real
32:14world practices and since we don't have
32:16any direct data you're not going to be
32:17like well both of these are wrong and
32:18stupid you're going to be like ah just
32:20do the safe thing and eat more protein
32:21yes and so like uh for steroid people
32:23maybe 1.25 gram per pound or something
32:25like that is uh one of those insurance
32:27policy numbers I think some of the
32:29survey data on like high level
32:30professional bodybuilders they're in the
32:32range of 2.3 to like 3.1 G per kilogram
32:36so that's actually kind of like more
32:37like Milos recommendations yes I think
32:40that makes sense are you saying Milos on
32:42steroids Scott that's the
32:45clip um very cool very cool thumbnail uh
32:49man that was very insightful So speaking
32:52of protein mhm I consume protein for
32:55specifically three
32:56reasons one
32:58well sorry more protein just more
33:00whatever amount you think more for three
33:03reasons M reason one is that protein
33:06like mechanistically makes you jacked
33:08because it composes your
33:10muscles reason two is that I want people
33:12to see me consume a lot of protein they
33:14ask me if I'm Into Fitness so that I can
33:15just ramble about my macros to them
33:16until they show you're rich right
33:18awkwardly leave also yes I like because
33:21my value of wealth peaked in the 1920s I
33:24absolutely weigh higher protein just to
33:26tell people like I can do this and all
33:28of you have to like make mock ham
33:30sandwiches and shit like that you care
33:32about
33:33inflation inflation must be something my
33:36servants are worried about the only
33:38thing inflating is my money
33:41supply but most importantly the reason I
33:44eat a lot of protein is because I often
33:46become hungry and want to eat snacks and
33:47Treats but protein crushes my appetite
33:51when I ate way more of it is anything
33:54about what I said wrong in your view I
33:57think
33:58protein is not inherently more satiating
34:00than carbs or fats when you exceed the
34:03requirements for muscle protein
34:04symphysis so if I'm getting a gram per
34:06pound eating one and a half grams per
34:09pound of protein per day on a fat loss
34:12diet where I'm cutting my calories and
34:14taking that extra half gram per pound
34:16and cutting it out of my carbs and
34:18putting it into my protein I thought was
34:20best practice but you're here
34:22embarrassing me on my own I will say
34:24quite successful YouTube channel how
34:26dare you explain
34:28Yeah we actually did a study on exactly
34:30this to test this you mean Wei you and
34:33that the computer mouse that has jizz
34:35stains on it yeah that too she
34:38participated she heavily yeah and
34:43uh we compared uh I believe it was 1.8
34:46versus 2.9 so it's like a lot more
34:48protein 2.7 50% per kilogram all
34:53civilized people use that yes yes rule
34:55britania yeah it's funny because in
34:58science everybody uses the metric system
34:59but most of my audience also uses
35:01imperial system yeah so can get
35:03confusing yeah anyway we found uh no
35:06benefits above uh the requirements for
35:09protein synthesis so above like 08 gram
35:12per pound untiy for satiety hunger ad
35:15lium energy intake like all measures
35:17lium energy intake means if we feed you
35:19some protein but then we say like eat
35:20whatever you want people who way more
35:23protein don't really eat any less food
35:24than you would expect yeah you give them
35:25a buffet and you're like d g bro hell
35:27yeah challenge accepted yeah like you
35:30see those study manuscript like like an
35:31asterisk one person died of overeating
35:33you're like holy shit they really did
35:35push
35:36it okay
35:39so okay but like there has to be
35:41something to how this got started Can
35:44you steal man the idea is it a food
35:47palatability thing is it like the way
35:50protein hits the face because I know a
35:52lot of the protein studies the real
35:53smart researchers what they do is they
35:55go okay there may be something filling
35:57about chewing on a protein-like texture
36:00and so if we give people like clear way
36:03protein shakes and they still experience
36:06a decrease in hunger well there
36:07something mechanistically with protein
36:08maybe but if we give them clearway
36:10protein shakes and they're like I'm just
36:11as hungry as I ever was we're like well
36:12this must not be the protein that it
36:13might be something about the food are
36:15there any studies that have looked at
36:16that specifically yes and that's
36:18precisely the point that protein per se
36:21is not inherently more satiating than
36:22carbs or fats research is quite clear on
36:24this there's also a met analysis that
36:25looked at the effect and you see that in
36:28at lower intakes there is an effect
36:30protein is inherently more shating than
36:32carbs or F when you're not getting
36:33enough exactly it's very well
36:35demonstrated protein hunger is actually
36:36demonstrated in medical research across
36:38third world countries like if you don't
36:39get enough protein you actually start to
36:40dream and fantasize about meat at the
36:42very low Ends by the way Politically
36:43Incorrect please not politically
36:45incorrect it's just messed up so if
36:46you're a child or if you're watching
36:47this with a child mute the next several
36:49seconds uh very low protein intakes for
36:52populations you will get um autod
36:53development of cannibalism in many
36:55cases it's like the least least
36:58Politically Incorrect thing you've said
37:00in a while it's true cannibalism is
37:03least wow I have hit a new low point in
37:05my life that was a direct quote from my
37:07psychotherapist cannibalism is like a
37:09three out of 10 on the mic scale oh my
37:11God it doesn't even make the mic scale
37:14Al if you think about it a lot quite
37:15disturbing okay so we already know that
37:17if you're not getting enough protein
37:18more protein is more satiating and also
37:21necessary for all the protein stuff that
37:22it does it's called protein leverage I
37:24love it so let's put that aside cuz like
37:25if you're undereating protein you're
37:27just like can you just like stop one of
37:29just like do better oh nice you're not
37:31one of us yeah just turn off the turn
37:32off the channel just kidding don't don't
37:34we get ad re you're already out grou you
37:37don't belong you try to eat more protein
37:39like n it's too late um if you're eating
37:41enough protein like even a gram per
37:43pound per day so you're saying like just
37:46on protein alone if I eat more I'm not
37:49going to get more satiated than if I eat
37:51more fats or more carbs but are there
37:54any foods or food types of carbs or of
37:57fats or is it the fats and carbs
37:59themselves that have a bigger yield on
38:00satiety what's your take yes so at that
38:02point it's no longer about the
38:04macronutrients it's about the food okay
38:06pause so that means if I eat more
38:07protein or more fats or more carbs they
38:09have roughly the same effect on satiety
38:11as macronutrients yes okay but the
38:13specific types of proteins or fats or
38:15carbs that I can eat that'll reduce my
38:17Hunger more they matter greatly so
38:20liquid ones that are I'm kidding liquids
38:23are known to cause a smaller decrease of
38:25satiety correct exactly and tell tell us
38:27the rest of the scale what kinds of
38:28foods come out in this like anti-
38:30satiety thing So Pro satiety sorry Jesus
38:33Christ regardless of whether it's
38:34protein or not uh something that you
38:36have to chew on a lot with a harder
38:37texture that requires more oral
38:39processing as researchers say my God I
38:43expect it
38:44something no what did you do something
38:47sexual you know how many sexual things I
38:49had queued up in my brain to say that
38:50I'm desperately trying to shut up about
38:52on this channel disappointing don't
38:53encourage me yeah so I've done a bit of
38:56oral processing myself if you know what
38:57mean all right fine so things that you
39:00have to chew on more and the like they
39:01they say shape more if it's um not so
39:04palatable it'll say Chase more yes okay
39:06so food that is hyper delicious you go
39:08through it you just want more exactly
39:10and then food that's not so tasty and
39:11you have to chew it on for a while like
39:13broccoli you're like uh and someone's
39:15like do you want more food you're like
39:15to be honest I'm just over food
39:17altogether y fiber is generally very
39:19satiating depends on the type of a
39:20nutrient or as a fiber that is present
39:23in highly voluminous foods like broccoli
39:25or melons or watermelon both dependently
39:27fiber has a satiating effect even a very
39:30a Metamucil shake or something like that
39:32yes so supplements supplements don't
39:34have the same benefits but they still
39:35have benefits so we can still detect it
39:37wow so unlike protein fiber has a net
39:40positive yield into the the more you
39:42take until you start shitting blood the
39:43better and we know the mechanistic
39:45reasons it it's it's it swells up it
39:47slows down gastric emptying it just
39:49slows down the whole passage of food
39:50throughout the digestive tra especially
39:51the gastric site which is where you
39:53literally have pressure sensors that
39:55essentially measure how full is the
39:57stomach it's like a balloon in fact
39:59there's research where you you blow up a
40:01balloon inside somebody's body highly
40:03invasive highly invasive and highly
40:05satiating when you have the balloon
40:06inside you you're no longer
40:08hungry it's true because there are
40:10literally pressure receptors that are
40:11like how full are we and the balloon
40:13presses on those and the body's like ah
40:15we good Scott are you hungry and your
40:18diet's going poorly yeah well here's our
40:21new
40:22invention palatable balloon do not
40:25breathe it in
40:27yeah so that's mostly the things that
40:29that really matter and certain protein
40:32sources score really well on that in
40:34particular energy density so if
40:35something has very few calories per 100
40:37grams it's inherently more satiating
40:39because it has basically the same food
40:41volume for fewer calories same pressure
40:42sensors less calories so you can let's
40:45say if it's half the calorie density you
40:47can eat double so you double the
40:48pressure sensor detection in the stomach
40:50double the hunger control roughly or
40:51whatever more and then you are like
40:54still eating the same number of calories
40:56uh and so like do you have any um sorry
40:58please continue more more more
41:00information because I have follow
41:01questions here EX for example egg whites
41:03are incredibly satiating oh but meno
41:05they suck right that's why they're
41:07satiating that too but you can sweeten
41:09them and they're still very satiating so
41:12you can make for example pancakes with
41:13egg whites and you need the liquid egg
41:15whites otherwise you're GNA be breaking
41:16eggs the whole fucking day so you when
41:19you get the liquid egg whites you can
41:20make like pancakes reps or something
41:21with that they are surprisingly
41:23satiating but for me for example chicken
41:26doesn't do it at all and if it's tasty
41:28type of meat it's maybe a little bit
41:30better but I I just get for I just get
41:34hungry from it if anything fish fish is
41:36pretty good but it depends a lot on the
41:38texture you have a lot of that white
41:39fish that just kind of like almost
41:40liquidly like yeah you just kind of
41:41swallow it
41:43exactly okay but that's just for you
41:45personally yeah okay but for most people
41:48it depends more on these types of
41:49factors like palatability and how much
41:51processing it requires energy density
41:54much more so than whether is protein so
41:56good example what you already gave way
41:58shakes are not satiating at all a lot of
42:00people actually get hungry from a way
42:01Shake if you're like fasted you're like
42:03oh no I'm not that hungry have a way
42:05Shake A lot of people actually that more
42:06triggers more appetites rather than that
42:08it actually does anything brings down
42:10sympathetic nervous system activity it
42:12go you go postprandial bring a
42:14parasympathetic now you're in recovery
42:15mode but you the calories and your
42:16body's like I'm hungry now let's get it
42:18on yeah yeah and we see that in research
42:20that um there are a couple metth
42:21analyses where they show that protein
42:23shakes in particular they increase net
42:26energy intake for most people showing
42:28that it doesn't have like a compensatory
42:29response where afterwards you're full
42:31and you don't eat anymore no it's just
42:32additive yes in the United States a lot
42:34of protein supplements like if you get a
42:35container of powder it says not a weight
42:37loss food which makes sense many of
42:40these protein snacks have that effect so
42:42especially the good ones like if you
42:43have the theut type of protein bar that
42:45it just takes you like 30 minutes to
42:46chew fruits like cardboard yeah maybe
42:49satiating because more more satiating in
42:51a sense of I don't want to eat anymore
42:52rather than ass satiating in the sense
42:53of like I'm satisfied right but if you
42:56have something like a really tasty
42:58protein bar you can Munch through those
42:59and it's like candy yeah hell yeah
43:02anabar have you ever tried anabar mhm I
43:05can't I can't tolerate almost any of
43:06them due to default default Maps the
43:08sugar Al oh that's right you turn into a
43:10rocket ship yeah um so when we're trying
43:14to reduce our calories and not go insane
43:17from Hunger we want to lean into lots of
43:21uh high volume fresh veggies or veggies
43:23mixed into our food lots of high volume
43:26fresh fruits mhm lots of whole grains
43:28like oatmeal and things like that
43:30especially if they're minimally flavored
43:31or unflavored like unflavored oatmeal is
43:33a motherfucker you're hungry you're
43:35going to find better most ing oh yeah
43:38and then egg whites and other things
43:39like that that can really help out and a
43:41really really big deal is to make sure
43:43we're not trying to make our food Ultra
43:44tasty the way I like to do it is kind of
43:46a sliding scale or a turn dial as you
43:48get deeper into your diet and you are
43:50more insane about Hunger you actually
43:52turn the tastiness of your food down but
43:54it always stays at roughly the same
43:55average of like uh perceptively oh like
43:59uh I like my food I love eating it and
44:01then afterwards I don't want to eat it
44:02anymore as you're Mass gaining and you
44:04don't want to eat anymore you turn up
44:05the tastiness to food to keep you right
44:07in that middle sweet spot because if you
44:09turn your diet into like I hate eating I
44:11hate my life that sucks if you turn your
44:13diet into I want to eat way more than I
44:14can that sucks so shooting for that
44:16middle by modulating how many of these
44:18variables are changing like fiber intake
44:20fruits veggies whole grains um is there
44:23anything about fats are some kind of
44:25fats more satiating than others or it
44:26just once you um take out the variable
44:29of palatability it all kind of is
44:30roughly the same yeah exactly the fat
44:32versus carbs in practice many foods
44:36typically considered high fat sources
44:37are not very satiating per unit of
44:40calories really what we're talking about
44:42like the ultimate satiating food is
44:43three pizzas but like you're doing some
44:45that's a mistake that many governments
44:46by the way use a lot they are like whole
44:48grains are the best source of fiber yeah
44:50per 100 grams they score pretty well but
44:51per calorie they're pretty bad yeah
44:53compared to like vegetables nothing
44:54beats like green veggies and stuff like
44:56that
44:57yeah so what was the question you were
44:59asking before I went off the tangents no
45:01I think I think you answered almost all
45:02the questions protein at higher levels
45:06than what you need just to get jacked
45:07does not have an alternate Advantage for
45:09suppressing hunger fats and carbs also
45:11doesn't matter it's the foods for
45:13example avocado versus butter completely
45:15different story have you ever tried just
45:18eating a stick of butter like it's a
45:19candy bar actually one of the things
45:22that my dad taught me about how easy it
45:23is to make foods tasty if you just just
45:26tasty
45:27is by taking a stick of butter getting
45:30some Dutch HL which is like chocolate
45:32sprinkles and then some sugar you just
45:34mix it and it looks grotesque and but
45:38it's actually super tasty super tasty
45:40one of my friends and actually the
45:42current COO of RP uh Yasha who you know
45:45well we've survived India several times
45:47together um uh he was uh a long time ago
45:51he was working as a waiter at a
45:53restaurant and uh he was starting to get
45:55into fitness and cuz he was little bit
45:57overweight and he didn't like that
45:58anymore and then he was like you know
46:00because you could get like half off or
46:01basically free meals at a restaurant if
46:03you work there and you're like one of
46:04the waiters like the the guys in the
46:05back will cook whatever food for you as
46:07long as you're a long shift and he was
46:09like you know eating some of the food it
46:10was quite good and then at some point he
46:12like got more attention to macros and
46:13fitness and he realized that they begin
46:15the preparation of one person Scott
46:18you're going to die when you hear this
46:19one person serving of their rot take on
46:22fedini Alfredo which is quite good very
46:24good he the I I noticed that with the
46:27cooks do when the meal begins to be
46:28constructed is they put the frying pan
46:30down and they put one stick of butter in
46:32the frying pan and he was likey how many
46:34people is that four and the guy's like
46:35one and he was like oh my God is that's
46:39like 900 calories or something just
46:41right off the bat and it was like oh oh
46:45I I eating at restaurants when I don't
46:47know the macros is a real good way to
46:50just go just get enormous so yeah the
46:52butter thing and I mean that's a huge
46:55thing in the lots of American Cuisine as
46:57well really all around the world
46:58Continental European Cuisine name a
46:59French food that doesn't start with a
47:00stick of butter I'll wait like that's a
47:03thing yeah I tell most of my clients
47:04also when you eat out at a restaurant
47:06your calorie intake is simply X you can
47:09try to guesstimate it yeah but it's
47:10going to be a very rough estimate and
47:12even something like butter or just some
47:14more olive oil can mean that your lean
47:16chicken breast with veggies actually has
47:18400 extra
47:19calories yeah Chipotle is amazing but
47:22their R slides down your throat with so
47:25much oil that you're like this is just
47:27rice but I but man I want to believe
47:30every time Jared and I are hanging out
47:31Jared feather IB Pro I'm like uh meal
47:34he's like yeah clean meal he's like yeah
47:36I'm like Chipotle he's like come on
47:38Mike red lightsaber comes out and he
47:40usually chops off a part of my body
47:42because he's a mean man um yeah
47:44restaurant eating is tough I'm sure
47:47there are places like subway uh where
47:50you because you have total control over
47:52what's going in and there's not any oil
47:53application you really can like lean
47:55meats at Subway with whole grain bread
47:57or whatever like you can construct that
47:59but anytime you have ingredients that
48:01were pre-prepared especially
48:02carbohydrate ingredients that have some
48:05amount of fat used in the cooking we
48:06just casually assume it's an amount of
48:09fat that is absurd for macro people to
48:11even consider because like if you make
48:14dude I had this experience fuck it I'll
48:15tell a story real quick really fancy
48:17steakhous in Austin Texas amazing
48:19experience and I'm just like I'm a giant
48:21waste of time Scott could tell you this
48:23of fancy food cuz I have like my pallet
48:24of a six-year-old a six-year-old with
48:26lots of behavioral issues and quirks and
48:28so uh you know I'm at this restaurant
48:30and I I know I love pasta dishes um and
48:33I steak is fine it's okay it's not that
48:35great so I just wanted to order a pasta
48:37dish and I told them can you guys please
48:39do like one half of the normal sauce
48:42they brought me the dish they heard me
48:44loud this is like Elite tier steakhous
48:45they do exactly what you say like they
48:47don't forget in the kitchen they do what
48:48whatever you want they brought me this
48:50pasta and I took like three spoonfuls of
48:52it and ate it and I ran out of room my
48:53stomach because I swear to God there was
48:55more sauce than pasta and I was like
48:58Crystal and I were like what the fuck is
49:00the real version like like people are
49:02using pasta as a vehicle for sauce it
49:05was wild wild stuff so eating out is
49:09real tough when you're on a diet in
49:11which you want to make the best gains
49:13possible and you've been struggling at
49:15that point probably eating at home is
49:17best yeah yeah I mean you can um you can
49:21indulge and if you are somewhat
49:22consistent with your eating out habits
49:26then all that what matters is that you
49:27know what your body composition change
49:28is on a certain type of intake even if
49:30you don't know what the intake is
49:31correct if you know that you're losing
49:32fat you're good y if you're gaining
49:34weight okay you need to uh sitm down in
49:37terms of energy two burritos a day
49:39usually Chipotle now it's one now I lose
49:41weight yeah that makes sense um anything
49:44we're missing about the protein satiety
49:46discussion that you want to add in
49:47before we sign off no that's it I can
49:49give you uh you set three reasons to
49:51consume protein usually the reasons that
49:52are given is it's more satiating it
49:54helps build muscle and fmic advance
49:58there's actually a new meta analysis
50:00just published that came out in this
50:02thermic advantage means that when you
50:03eat more protein the protein um requires
50:07more energy for digestion or other
50:09processing and that uh energy is
50:11actually coming at the expense of some
50:13of the protein and potentially even
50:15boosting the overall metabolism of your
50:16body such that protein turns into like a
50:19Junior League fat burning food that
50:21seems like one of those Women's Health
50:22magazines in the grocery store title
50:24Scott do you want to do a video called
50:2620 burning foods you didn't know that
50:28you didn't know that you didn't know
50:31about that'll be the title of this video
50:33great so that's the thing that works
50:35right thermic effect with protein it
50:37works there's more energy required in
50:39the digestion absorption and Metabolism
50:41of protein than that of carbohydrates
50:43and fats however the new met analysis
50:45they compared like 28 studies on low and
50:47high protein intakes they found that on
50:49average the effect is statistically
50:51insignificant in longer duration studies
50:53because much of the effect likely comes
50:56from increased protein symphysis if you
50:58go up to really high protein intakes you
51:00also have some fmic Advantage from
51:01increased oxidation but the symphysis is
51:04short lift you can't eat your way to the
51:05Olympia right you need to actually train
51:07as well yes so the there's something
51:10called the muscle full effect you only
51:11get a little bit of protein synthesis if
51:12you were undernourished and you didn't
51:15get enough protein before even untrained
51:16individual you give them more protein
51:17they'll gain some muscle right but maybe
51:19one or two kilos and after that you the
51:23protein synthesis stops that's their new
51:24Baseline muscle mass and at that point
51:27the increase in protein synthesis that
51:29or increase in energy expenditure total
51:31daily energy expenditure or fmic effect
51:32of food basically disappears in these
51:34studies so we see that in acute studies
51:36the effects are overblown compared to
51:38the longer duration effects and it's
51:40like 50 calories 100 if you're really
51:42lucky and really like drastically higher
51:44protein intakes so yeah that's a nice
51:47bonus but it's not like oh if I'm on a
51:51cut I have to consume like you know 200
51:53gram extra protein and I'm going to
51:55consume protein shakes to be make sure
51:57that I get that in and knowing that
51:59they're actually not inherently more
52:00satiating protein shakes aren't very
52:02satiating and yeah you're burning off
52:04maybe 00 extra calories but you're
52:06consuming 500 plus calories to get those
52:09yeah if you don't fact that and you're
52:11just like losing a plot um yeah that
52:13stinks it's similar to the kind of
52:15effect sizes we see with how many more
52:17calories per day you burn on average
52:19having much more muscle mass but less
52:22fat mass at the same body weight and
52:24it's that scien are still debating
52:26whether it's 50 to 100 calories or
52:27whether it's a question mark that maybe
52:29is zero so yeah a lot of myths busted
52:32today meno um there is a problem
52:36ravaging America people with beautiful
52:38homes and families is it the imperial
52:41system Mano you're going to insult the
52:44imperial system on someone else's
52:46irrelevant metric
52:48podcast you're one inch away from
52:50violence you wouldn't even know what
52:52that means huh that's why you've been so
52:54Curt caffeine
52:57abuse is killing all of us now not just
53:02Americans get out of here there are
53:03other people in this world I think
53:06caffeine is other than water uh well
53:09coffee other than water I think the most
53:11consumed beverage in the world maybe tea
53:13first but it's it's up there water
53:16coffee tea
53:19alcohol diet soda I want it to be diet
53:21soda at the top but uh Coca-Cola still
53:24has not returned my calls or emails or
53:26has mailed me back any pictures of them
53:28because I've emailed Coca-Cola and
53:31actually uh snail mailed physical mailed
53:33pictures of myself in various positions
53:35with kind uh words about their product
53:37nothing met nothing yeah not even a
53:39fucking phone call um caffeine abuse
53:42tell us about what it is is it a real
53:44thing are people getting in trouble for
53:46it how bad is it please caffeine is a
53:50drug and what commonly abused that
53:53doesn't mean it's like oh my God you're
53:55all her addicts
53:57but it does mean but you're all caffeine
53:59addicts yeah caffeine addiction is also
54:02debated if it's like should should it
54:03really be called an addiction I think it
54:04should because there's withdrawal when
54:06you stop taking it there's tolerance to
54:07it chuse and those are exactly the
54:09problems yeah so and negative downsides
54:12the the there's a couple of cat
54:14catalogues of what they call an
54:15addiction versus not the quintessential
54:17Central defining factor of an addiction
54:19is does this thing screw up your life in
54:21a wish that in a way that if you could
54:23step back away would you just turn off
54:25if the answer is yes but you can't stop
54:27taking it you might be addicted to it
54:28like a net negative that's really gnarly
54:31uh so how many people are in that
54:33situation with caffeine I suppose quite
54:34a few right because of sleep
54:36disturbances what's the problem here man
54:38I think most people end up in a more of
54:39a neutral situation where the caffeine
54:41doesn't do nearly as much positive as
54:44they think it does and they overestimate
54:47the positive effects of the caffeine
54:49because it reduces the withdrawal
54:50symptoms and it compensates for the
54:52sleep deprivation which is partly caused
54:55by the excessive caffeine in yeah so
54:57there's a met analysis from last year
54:59which found that if you don't want to
55:01have an objective decrease in your sleep
55:03quality even a single cup of coffee like
55:05100 milligrams caffeine you have to
55:06consume that on average depends on the
55:08how fast you metabolize it on average
55:10you have to consume that N9 hours before
55:12bedtime and a pre-workout 13
55:15hours I'm not even awake for that long
55:18during the day um that is like
55:22something very many billions of caffeine
55:25intake do not do like I remember when um
55:30huberman started talking about this kind
55:31of situation a lot of people thought
55:35that he was on some old humorin bullshit
55:37again because you know he like he's
55:38great and he gets a lot of shit right
55:39but you we say enough you get some shit
55:41wrong um and we were like oh Hughes is
55:43at it again and then we all looked at
55:45the data and we're like ah fucking God
55:46damn it he's right um and nobody wanted
55:48to hear that because like how many
55:49people meno do you know that at like 300
55:52p.m. they get a little slump at work
55:54they hit the espresso machine and then
55:56they're going to bed at 10: I mean like
55:58that's in in my you know Mal develop
56:01brain is 7 hours I mean we're not even
56:02clear yet like that's a bad deal um a
56:06lot of people I know like consume
56:07caffeine well into the evening hours and
56:09can go to sleep but you're saying there
56:12Sleep Quality is worse yeah so there are
56:14multiple factors to Sleep Quality one of
56:17them is called Sleep latency which is
56:18how long it takes you to fall asleep but
56:20then you have all of these other metrics
56:21like the time spent in deep sleep sleep
56:23efficiency how much REM sleep are you
56:24getting and some of these metrics they
56:27deteriorate with caffeine and they
56:29deteriorate long past the point at which
56:31you subjectively feel that you still
56:33have a positive effect of the caffeine
56:34and that's important because many people
56:37will say 13 hours at that point I don't
56:39feel anything anymore it's like yeah you
56:40don't that's right but your brain's
56:42still affected yeah there's still
56:44activity on these receptors there's
56:45still a difference in how your brain
56:47functions and it's in generally in
56:49general more aroused which is not
56:51conducive to sleep Scott did you hear
56:53that what did he say aroused oh my God
56:56I didn't mean to look at your
56:58dick fine I
57:00did uh damn dude damn that sucks okay so
57:03that's a big downside of caffeine is
57:05there anything else with excessive
57:06caffeine intake we'll get to what that
57:07means in just a second is there any are
57:10there any other problems because like
57:11okay let's say we have a magic drug
57:13developed with AI Revolution coming up
57:14in three or four years that's like the
57:17ultimate it does two things one it puts
57:19you into hypers sleep as soon as you
57:21take it 20 minutes later you're getting
57:22the highest quality sleep of your life
57:23for eight hours period like you could
57:25somebody could be poking you with a prob
57:26you wouldn't wake up and two it does
57:28some kind of magical thing where it
57:29completely clears out all caffeine
57:31metabolites instantly upon taking it is
57:34that like that's problem solved we can
57:36all do a th000 milligrams an hour of
57:37caffeine or are there other downsides to
57:39high caffeine intake the clearing out
57:40the metabolites probably actually not
57:41enough there seem to be Downstream
57:43effects for of caffeine be beyond that
57:45point but let's say I get your point on
57:46the nervous system is activity yeah okay
57:48let's say it does Undo those two godamn
57:50exactly I knew you were going to say
57:51that so let's say it unds all of that
57:54are there still downsides well yeah yes
57:57caffeine is like to be clear caffeine is
57:59nothing like heroin or cocaine or
58:01anything like that it's just a very
58:02commonly abused drug that people think
58:04is positive and I think is often more
58:06neutral sometimes negative so I think
58:08that more rational strategic use people
58:10can benefit from that management exactly
58:13some of the downsides two big ones
58:15basically first anxiety cortisol Rises
58:19and I think a lot of people
58:20underestimate that my experience with
58:21clients is very much when you ask them
58:23do you have any side effects they're
58:24like nope nope nothing at all
58:27and they don't realize that Sleep
58:28Quality suffers so they're like oh no
58:30nothing I ask him okay any you know any
58:33Vis any visual effects any physical
58:36effects maybe like Trembling Hands
58:37they're like oh yeah my hands tremble a
58:39lot and like that's that's a significant
58:43side effect like that they just like
58:46yeah I see that all the time and
58:47bodybuilders in particular when um yeah
58:49bodybuilders taste gnarly do they're
58:51used to a lot especially people on Gad
58:53that they're used to a lot more side
58:54effects so like a answer TR that's fine
58:56whatever yeah still alive yeah so but I
58:59think the anxiety is a big deal and I
59:01also notice it for certain types of
59:03tasks and research shows is that your
59:05performance is you're more energized so
59:09it seems like everything is better on
59:10caffeine but performance on certain
59:12tasks is actually worse some tasks
59:13improve for sure yeah but performance
59:17can deteriorate for a because of the
59:19anxiety and over stimulation for example
59:22for certain types of um work like or
59:24chess chess has been studied performance
59:26on um performance on a chess match does
59:29not improve for caffeine because you
59:30canot get lost in the details and over
59:31Focus yes and you spend too much time
59:34per move yes so it's like you get better
59:37at things that require intense Focus but
59:39the kind of more big picture type
59:40reasoning like time management and
59:42creativity yes and the creativity can go
59:45both ways on caffeine there are several
59:46types of creativity I'll be more
59:48specific um novel generator creativity
59:51for me in my experience goes down
59:52substantially because if you take like
59:54your neural networking patterns as kind
59:56of like uh they've done some computation
59:57modeling with this where it looks like a
59:58funnel and it's like a funnel like
1:00:01threedimensional funnel shape and if
1:00:03you're highly stimulated you're closer
1:00:05to the base of the funnel like very
1:00:06specific subset of thoughts is occurring
1:00:08which is cool because that's what focus
1:00:09is and if you have schizophrenia you're
1:00:11actually not in the funnel at all you're
1:00:13distributed attention everywhere so you
1:00:14actually can't even coales to like say
1:00:16where you are in space right now but if
1:00:18you are optimally creative it's usually
1:00:20somewhere on the borderline between
1:00:21those two um and so if you are very very
1:00:24caffeinated and you have high anxiety it
1:00:26ends up uh being like just one fine
1:00:28focused point in your creativity I
1:00:30didn't even think one step ahead of what
1:00:31I am now but if you are not sufficiently
1:00:33caffeinated you might be ultra hyper
1:00:35creative which makes you you write down
1:00:37tons of great ideas but some okay this
1:00:39idea seed is insanely creative there's
1:00:41something there now develop it like you
1:00:42ain't developing shit unless you have
1:00:44three cups of coffee in you so kind
1:00:45there's kind of a time and a place like
1:00:47deep deep focused work amazing
1:00:49brainstorming sessions probably not
1:00:50ideal to have a ton of caffeine in you
1:00:53such that you're like laser focused and
1:00:54you're just like I'll just take notes
1:00:55during this meeting yeah you for c for
1:00:58creativity indeed you get that trade-off
1:00:59where you do get the the energy and you
1:01:02do get a positive mood effect and
1:01:04positive mood in itself usually does
1:01:05improve creativity but the effect itself
1:01:07of focus is antagonistic to creativity
1:01:10creativity requires more of a loose
1:01:12unfocus you will and then there's the
1:01:15second effect which is negative of
1:01:17creatine some research shows that
1:01:19caffeine yeah caffeine okay what did I
1:01:20say creatine creatine right how dare you
1:01:22I will not have you dispar creatine H
1:01:25that's another actually interaction with
1:01:26creatine for some people potentially but
1:01:29the cognitively speaking some research
1:01:31shows that the impairment in memory
1:01:33functioning with prolonged high dosage
1:01:35usage like I think in the in the last
1:01:37study it was um 450 milligrams per day
1:01:41so that's like four cups of coffee or so
1:01:43and they showed that working memory
1:01:44performance uh decreased and it was
1:01:46associated with some impairments in the
1:01:48hippoc campus as well over what time
1:01:50scale couple weeks do we suspect that
1:01:53that's directly causally entirely EXP L
1:01:56by the degradation of Sleep Quality
1:01:57because I know sleep was critical to
1:01:58memory formation quite possible quite
1:02:00possible at least in part very likely
1:02:02candid
1:02:03hypothesis um so caffeine is safe no
1:02:06doubt about that I'm just saying it has
1:02:09downsides that people probably don't
1:02:10fully acknowledge when they go for the
1:02:12short-term Buzz the short-term energy
1:02:14hit yeah so there are some downsides and
1:02:17um in particular tolerance is a really
1:02:19big one because like I said you get into
1:02:20this negative spiral where your sleep
1:02:22suffers and you just need more caffeine
1:02:24to feel the same and you think that the
1:02:26caffeine makes you feel better but
1:02:27objectively what happens is it just
1:02:28brings you back to Baseline yes if you
1:02:32you just need caffeine to function yeah
1:02:33so you wake up you feel terrible you
1:02:34need the caffeine to feel normal it
1:02:36seems like every time you take caffeine
1:02:37you feel better that's true but it
1:02:39brings you back to the Baseline where
1:02:40which you didn't need to do if you were
1:02:43well rested and you weren't using any
1:02:45caffeine at all Scott didn't you live
1:02:46through some shit like this a few months
1:02:48back yes I quit caffeine and it was very
1:02:50very difficult I was fantasizing about
1:02:52energy drinks for like three weeks you
1:02:55switch to Prime drinks just to have
1:02:56something colorful to drink right
1:02:58yes um and I started drinking element in
1:03:01the morning I fool myself that it was C
1:03:04it's that there really is a little bit
1:03:05of a placebo of like I'm taking
1:03:06something that's G to zaz me um did you
1:03:09on the other end of it now do you feel
1:03:11like you're performance cognitively Etc
1:03:13is like pretty good or do you miss
1:03:15caffeine better better not just the same
1:03:19but without the shit sleep wow less
1:03:23anxiety wow I mean obviously now some
1:03:26people okay so so so far what I've
1:03:29learned and please tell me if this is
1:03:30wrong is like caffeine can be a net
1:03:32positive and often is but you have to
1:03:35understand that it has some negatives
1:03:36and it's up to you to manage the dosage
1:03:37and the and the time of application and
1:03:40to see which negatives you have to try
1:03:42to make sure to wiggle around those um
1:03:44so that all being the case is there
1:03:46anything where there's a large variation
1:03:48of how people candle caffeine um
1:03:51genetically can you speak to that like
1:03:52are some people just not for caffeine
1:03:54whereas others they're like really the
1:03:56ROI even at quite high doses is still
1:03:58very positive yeah there's substantial
1:04:00variation in in particular in how fast
1:04:01we metabolize caffeine which determines
1:04:04how much we need to get a certain effect
1:04:06and for me if I have one Red Bull I
1:04:08really feel it and that's partly because
1:04:10of my brain and partly because I'm very
1:04:11sensitive to caffeine I can I don't have
1:04:13tolerance or very little just because
1:04:15you don't consume much yes most most
1:04:16research finds that most like the
1:04:19average individual can consume like a
1:04:20Red Bull per day or a coffee per day you
1:04:22don't really get substantial tolerance I
1:04:24actually do notice that I get a little
1:04:25bit L effect and it's very easy to tell
1:04:27you just don't use it for a couple days
1:04:29and then you use it and you're like w is
1:04:31this what one one can does yeah and it's
1:04:34funny because some research says you
1:04:36don't develop tolerance and the research
1:04:38they site for that is research where
1:04:40they consume a very large bows of
1:04:42caffeine usually like six cups of coffee
1:04:45or three cups of coffee the equivalent
1:04:46of that like 300 to 600 milligrams and
1:04:49they say oh look even in habitual users
1:04:50they still get an effect of that it's
1:04:52like yeah if your total daily intake is
1:04:54normally 300 Mig like three cups of
1:04:56coffee spread throughout the day with
1:04:58meals so you don't get these big spikes
1:05:01in in activity and then one time you
1:05:03consume three cups at once you do get an
1:05:05effect sure but if you look at the
1:05:08studies where you consume a certain
1:05:09dosage of caffeine over time and you see
1:05:11how much effect there is of that that
1:05:13aligns perfectly with people's anecdotal
1:05:14experience you feel the effect less yes
1:05:17of course I don't just there's no point
1:05:19debating that cuz just drink coffee for
1:05:21a while and see if it still has the same
1:05:22effect it won't exactly Okay so
1:05:25different genetics I I imagine because
1:05:28genetic variability is so multifactorial
1:05:30that there are definitely some people
1:05:31that experience much less and much more
1:05:34sleep disruption from
1:05:36caffeine um how do you know if you're
1:05:40doing caffeine wrong and what do you
1:05:43change to improve yes we always know you
1:05:46can just quit that's the last time we'll
1:05:48mention it I don't drink caffeine for
1:05:50the record I'm not a caffeine sh I just
1:05:51don't drink almost ever um because I'm
1:05:54quite awake enough by my fucking self
1:05:57arguably too much however just on the
1:06:00management side how do I know like right
1:06:02now people are listening to this and
1:06:04they're like am I doing too much can you
1:06:06tell me more best practices of how to
1:06:08figure out if I'm doing too much and
1:06:09also how to fix my caffeine thing or
1:06:11maybe by reduction or maybe by dosing
1:06:13arrangement I can do better I think
1:06:16there are a couple good questions to ask
1:06:17yourself which are the same questions
1:06:18that any addict should ask himself if if
1:06:20they are an Jesus Christ we're leaning
1:06:22into this I love it yeah for one are you
1:06:24using it with a specific goal in mind
1:06:27like I use caffeine as a pre-workout or
1:06:29for specific work bouts like a specific
1:06:32type of work that I need a focused
1:06:34energy session for so I know exactly
1:06:37what I'm going to do in the hours after
1:06:38the caffeine use to take advantage of
1:06:40the pharmaceutical effect of the drug if
1:06:43you're using it just to take it that's
1:06:44an indication that's a lot now maybe you
1:06:47consume coffee for the taste I would say
1:06:49at least try decaf coffee it's fucking
1:06:52amazing people like oh no I I never
1:06:54that's terrible it doesn't taste and
1:06:56then in blind research you see a lot of
1:06:57people actually do kind of like it or
1:06:58they can't even tell right yeah so
1:07:01certainly some people can tell um but
1:07:04yeah something for you to consider for
1:07:05yourself another consideration is if you
1:07:08don't get your caffeine do you function
1:07:10normally because if you in the morning
1:07:12you wake up and you're just a fucking
1:07:15zombie until you have your shots of
1:07:17caffeine in there that to me doesn't
1:07:19sound particularly ergogenic like you're
1:07:21not really improving much you've become
1:07:23dependent on it almost per definition
1:07:25and uh very likely it's either that you
1:07:28are dependent on caffeine and or your
1:07:31sleep is so degraded that really the
1:07:33problem should be fixing is a Sleep
1:07:34Quality some people like like you said
1:07:36earlier the caffeine destroys the Sleep
1:07:38Quality and then they need it to
1:07:39overcome that but if you pull back on
1:07:41the caffeine your sleep quality improves
1:07:42you're actually like oh wow I actually
1:07:44don't need any more coffee than a cup in
1:07:45the morning because now that I'm getting
1:07:47really good sleep it's all much better
1:07:50yep so I think those are questions that
1:07:52are very important uh the effect you get
1:07:54from a serving as well if you notice
1:07:56it's decreasing it's probably good to
1:07:57just take a few days off the good thing
1:07:59about caffeine addiction tolerance
1:08:01however you want to call it is it even
1:08:02in extreme cases N9 days is enough for
1:08:05full resensitization of your receptors
1:08:07Who full in nine days and if it's less
1:08:10if you're used to maybe two cups of
1:08:11coffee just three days is enough for
1:08:13most of the effect so if someone is on
1:08:16holiday MH and at work they're cranking
1:08:19caffeine because they have to whatever
1:08:20job they do uh one week vacation you
1:08:24would say like don't consume any
1:08:26caffeine and if you have to consume
1:08:27caffeine on a vacation you just really
1:08:29Mis architected the idea of vacation and
1:08:31if you have a headache from withdrawal
1:08:32symptoms just take headache medicine
1:08:34yeah and for example if I have an
1:08:36international flight I'm not going to
1:08:37take caffeine to watch movies on the
1:08:39plane right right the I'm going to use
1:08:42that day to resensitize to make sure I
1:08:44get the full pre-workout effect on my
1:08:45other days one thing about for
1:08:47pre-workout usage by the way is um so
1:08:50we've talked about the negatives and I
1:08:51think a lot of people argue well the
1:08:52positives outweigh the negatives but the
1:08:54positives are not nearly Asar large as
1:08:55many people think long-term research
1:08:57shows no effect on strength development
1:08:59muscle growth fat loss in large part
1:09:01because of the tolerance there's no
1:09:02increase in energy expenditure it's too
1:09:04short Liv to tolerance engage pretty
1:09:05much all of it so the effect on
1:09:08performance is something that is a bit
1:09:10more consistent but it's mostly
1:09:12psychological in fact most of the effect
1:09:13of caffeine is Placebo there have been
1:09:16studies where they look at how much of
1:09:19an effect people get either on cognitive
1:09:21tasks like mental tasks or physical
1:09:23tasks and then you see that people that
1:09:25think they are on caffeine but got a
1:09:27placebo they got more effect than the
1:09:30people that got caffeine but didn't know
1:09:32they were on it yeah and it's it's crazy
1:09:35how much caffeine you can give people
1:09:37especially people used to caffeine
1:09:39without them being able to tell if they
1:09:40were in the caffeine or placebo group
1:09:42holy
1:09:43[Music]
1:09:44shit it's crazy last question for you
1:09:48meno how many milligrams per if I'm my
1:09:51sleep is good um I've tried taking less
1:09:54caffeine no big of
1:09:56um I like caffeine I like drinking
1:09:58coffee or Monsters or whatever the hell
1:10:00what is the milligram per day
1:10:03dose and the time of cut off that you're
1:10:07like it doesn't matter how you feel
1:10:09don't go this much caffeine per day MH
1:10:13and probably stop drinking caffeine at
1:10:16the latest XYZ hours before you go to
1:10:18sleep even if everything seems fine if
1:10:21you really want to be safe I would go
1:10:22with the meta analysis of like 9 hours
1:10:24for a couple of coffee 13 hours for a
1:10:26pre-workout with like 200 milligram
1:10:29caffeine and other than that one
1:10:32milligram per kilogram of body weight is
1:10:34kind of the safe dosage which is about
1:10:36100 milligram per day like one cup of
1:10:38coffee one energy drink like a normal
1:10:41energy drink not like a red like a
1:10:43monster
1:10:45XXL that's about the dosage where we
1:10:47know that the average individual doesn't
1:10:48develop tolerance we know that from
1:10:50cognitive tasks as well as a one
1:10:51long-term study for an exercising
1:10:54individuals some people can certainly
1:10:55handle more if you're the typee of
1:10:57individual where you have a Red Bull and
1:10:58just don't feel anything not because
1:11:00you're tolerant because you just process
1:11:02it super fast after n days you have a
1:11:04Red Bull and you still can't feel shit
1:11:05exactly in that scenario see how much
1:11:08you need to get a robust effect that's
1:11:10basically the equivalent of 100
1:11:11milligrams for you and that's probably
1:11:13the dosage you can sustainably
1:11:17use sorry for the bad news folks all
1:11:20right met for most people it's indeed a
1:11:23bit of a downer but um I would see it as
1:11:25an opportunity for improvement because
1:11:27how you feel now how your life is now
1:11:28you can improve on that yes at the very
1:11:31least you can get the same results with
1:11:32less Reliance on caffeine yeah and it's
1:11:34we're not talking about life and death
1:11:35type of stuff like optimiz you can keep
1:11:38cranking caffeine and you'll be totally
1:11:39fine you could be a very productive
1:11:41caffeine addict 100% And it's not going
1:11:42to screw up your life or take years off
1:11:44your life but if you want to like
1:11:45consume less caffeine get exactly the
1:11:47same effects and even some better sleep
1:11:48and Recovery consider doing less
1:11:50caffeine okay man how long should we
1:11:52rest between sets in order to get jacked
1:11:55and in order to get strong been many
1:11:57many opinions over the years it swayed
1:11:59from like you know 3 to four minutes
1:12:01really get full recovery between sets
1:12:03all the way down to seconds as long as
1:12:05you get the total reps you need over the
1:12:07workout like whatever however you get 70
1:12:08reps whether it's very very tiny little
1:12:11micro my rep sets or tons of big sets it
1:12:14doesn't matter um what is your take on
1:12:17this what literature informed it tell us
1:12:18a
1:12:19story so rather than give you an exact
1:12:22number I think it's much more important
1:12:24to understand the
1:12:26principle because there's something that
1:12:28people hate to hear and it's called
1:12:30context and don't bother telling us we
1:12:33hate to hear it yes so I could tell you
1:12:35you know two to basically two to three
1:12:38minutes for muscle hypertrophy and full
1:12:40recovery for strength something like
1:12:42that that's probably a good General
1:12:43guideline but what you really need to
1:12:45know is that when you rest longer your
1:12:48nerve system recovers your muscles
1:12:50recover you can do more work in the next
1:12:52set that extra work will transl into
1:12:55greater muscle hypertrophy provided you
1:12:57can recover from it for strength
1:12:59development it's almost always a net
1:13:01positive especially energy substrate
1:13:03depletion and the like they have to
1:13:04fully recover the creatine phos fit
1:13:07system has to recover which takes a
1:13:08couple minutes to three minutes because
1:13:10you want maximal performance you want
1:13:11maximum muscle activity to train for
1:13:13strength it's actually the muscle
1:13:15activity that's more indicative or it's
1:13:18more stimulatory for strength
1:13:19development as it teaches the nervous
1:13:20system how to coordinate the movement
1:13:22how to maximize muscle activity that's
1:13:24what you want want for strength
1:13:25development maximum performance so for
1:13:27strength basically the longer you rest
1:13:28the better your results res until you
1:13:30cool down or something yeah yeah you
1:13:32don't five minutes is pretty much uh
1:13:34what most people need after that you get
1:13:35really sharp diminishing returns at best
1:13:38but some people don't fully recover so
1:13:40you know some people say rest until
1:13:42you're literally fully recovered for
1:13:43some people that would mean okay rest
1:13:45three days yeah right not five minutes
1:13:48right um but in 5 minutes you get vast
1:13:50majority of the effect your reps are
1:13:51maybe one lower than the previous set or
1:13:53something so for strength it it is
1:13:56generally good to try to plan in Long
1:13:58rest intervals for mus hypertrophy it
1:14:00really doesn't matter if you rest long
1:14:02it's about how much total work you get
1:14:03in like with strength you just can't get
1:14:06the same quality of work and you cannot
1:14:08compensate for that by just doing myor
1:14:10reps or as B sets or all of that stuff
1:14:12so for strength it's a bit more
1:14:14non-negotiable but for muscle
1:14:15hypertrophy you have a lot more leeway
1:14:17and you can either do and research quite
1:14:20clearly shows this and some studies you
1:14:21can either do fewer sets with more rest
1:14:24or you can do more more sets with less
1:14:26rest and the efficiency of that is
1:14:27actually higher so there's here is where
1:14:29context matters if you want to do a
1:14:32certain amount of sets and you do for
1:14:35example like I do mostly full body
1:14:36workouts and I do them as a combo set
1:14:38which is like a circuit where I do rest
1:14:39in between sets it's extremely time
1:14:41efficient because I can do say four
1:14:43exercises that are unrelated I rest only
1:14:45one minute in between those exercises
1:14:47but that means that by the time I get
1:14:48back to the same exercise so by the time
1:14:50I get back to training my biceps again
1:14:53after chin-ups I've rested probably six
1:14:55plus minutes and in every EX in between
1:14:58every exercise I've only rested one
1:14:59minute that's extremely time efficient
1:15:02so if you're doing it like that then
1:15:03yeah increasing your rest interval for
1:15:06in between exercising the same muscle
1:15:08group is generally positive but if
1:15:11you're on say the leg extension machine
1:15:13and nothing else is available and you
1:15:15just have to do another set of leg
1:15:17extensions and you only have an hour to
1:15:19work out you probably don't want to rest
1:15:21six minutes in between your sets of lag
1:15:23extensions because it's very in
1:15:25efficient so you're better off doing
1:15:26maybe 2 minutes and then doing an
1:15:28additional set if needed CU your total
1:15:30rep count is going to be higher mhm and
1:15:32that's what really matters that's what
1:15:33matters it's tension multipli by time
1:15:36under tension that's roughly the the
1:15:38thing that drives muscle growth like to
1:15:39the total area under the curve or the
1:15:41integral for the mathematicians of uh
1:15:44tension mechanical tension on the muscle
1:15:46that's the primary stimulus for muscle
1:15:48growth that makes sense and even if it's
1:15:51um metabolite situation you just secrete
1:15:54more metabolite the more tension you
1:15:55apply so that scales if it's a pump
1:15:58situation it scales roughly the same
1:16:00it's also trippy because people say well
1:16:02you get a better pump if you do short
1:16:03rest breakes like I don't know if you've
1:16:06ever trained that hard because if you
1:16:08get short enough rest breakes you gas
1:16:09out before you can really pump the
1:16:11muscle and take it really close to its
1:16:12own local failure but if you take longer
1:16:15rest breaks but you take every set real
1:16:17close to failure for decent reps you get
1:16:19crazy pumps you actually get a better
1:16:20pump between sets over a couple of
1:16:22minutes and then you get an even bigger
1:16:23pump after and after and after so even
1:16:25for all those other variables even if
1:16:27we're saying there's other things
1:16:27involved in growth than than tension as
1:16:30long as you're not limited by things
1:16:32that don't have to do with a local
1:16:34muscle producing Force you can rest as
1:16:37little time as you like yeah so what
1:16:40that means is this if you are doing calf
1:16:43raises and after 15 seconds of rest
1:16:46after the last set your calves feel
1:16:48great and you can do another five to 10
1:16:50reps at least you can go and you'll miss
1:16:53you'll basically miss out on nothing but
1:16:55if you're doing squats for sets of 15
1:16:58and after one set of squats you rest 30
1:17:01seconds and you go again you actually
1:17:03won't reach muscular failure on the next
1:17:05set in many cases you'll reach lung
1:17:07failure you just can't breathe anymore
1:17:09and you have to rack and then we're
1:17:10actually not training close to failure
1:17:12at the local level and potentially those
1:17:14reps aren't junk volume but they're more
1:17:16junky volume thoughts yeah because this
1:17:20those reps will probably not achieve the
1:17:22same level of muscle activity and
1:17:23tension right especially
1:17:25FIB yes the faster fiber tension is much
1:17:28less exposed because the faster fibers
1:17:29recover less quickly between sets and
1:17:31then you'll have a situation where
1:17:32you're only using your slower fibers for
1:17:34squats which is why instead of 15 reps
1:17:36on the second you got five but even
1:17:37though there are five reps your faster
1:17:38fibers are smoking a cigarette the whole
1:17:40time they're like the fuck we can't even
1:17:41turn on for this shit and then you
1:17:43actually are costing yourself so if the
1:17:46Lo if you feel like you can use the
1:17:48local muscle to generate lots of force
1:17:50you've rested long enough and if you
1:17:52feel like I need more time because
1:17:54psychologically need to clue in better
1:17:56uh my cardio needs to be better maybe a
1:17:58limiting factor so for example should
1:18:00you go and do another set of pull Downs
1:18:02well how do your lats feel back feels
1:18:04pretty good what about your forearms
1:18:06like my forearms are still kind of
1:18:07Pumped and kind of burning like well you
1:18:08should take more time because you don't
1:18:09want to reach failure in your forums if
1:18:11you've checked all those boxes and you
1:18:13can do another five to 10 reps on the
1:18:15next set you can easily condense your
1:18:17workout to have much shorter rest which
1:18:20tends to work better in like um
1:18:21isolating biceps and triceps and delts
1:18:24and forms and calves less well for
1:18:26things like the back and the chest it'll
1:18:27get get you out of breath and for legs
1:18:31hamstrings in a machine you can get away
1:18:33with quads in extensions you can get
1:18:36away with a the leg extensions taken
1:18:37close to failure for 15 to 20 reps can
1:18:39really fuck you up cardio wise too but
1:18:41things like squats and bent rows and
1:18:43cleans you're going to want a longer
1:18:45break to just have the higher quality of
1:18:47sets yeah yeah for most individuals it's
1:18:50going to be at least a minute just the
1:18:52local fatigue is going to require some
1:18:54time but varies so much per individual
1:18:56that I agree that's Auto regulating your
1:18:57rest interval so going by feel in this
1:18:59case and thinking when you feel ready
1:19:01for maximal performance again or at
1:19:03least to give it maximum effort again is
1:19:05a good guideline because great
1:19:08distinction yeah most people women
1:19:10recover a lot faster than men people
1:19:11that are not as strong recover faster
1:19:14than people that are much stronger you
1:19:16see some differences with age the
1:19:18exercise is a huge effect as you said so
1:19:20because of all these factors it's very
1:19:22hard to give like a guideline plus it's
1:19:24super imp practical nobody wants to walk
1:19:25around the gym with a fucking stopwatch
1:19:27right even the people I know people that
1:19:28do that and they they love it because it
1:19:30keeps them on track yeah but even people
1:19:32cool they often don't really go by it
1:19:35you see the alarm go off and then they
1:19:37like take a sip and why is that even on
1:19:40I think a lot of people do it
1:19:42um because I so I've heard from people
1:19:46and there are people that like that and
1:19:48massive respect to them for figuring
1:19:49this out they like they if I don't have
1:19:51a stopwatch I'll dilly dally for like
1:19:54IGN amount of time and so the stopwatch
1:19:55just basically punts me in the dick and
1:19:57says hey shut up and go lift that's
1:19:59actually supported by some research that
1:20:01people Del that a little bit too much
1:20:02like it's it's good to rest until you
1:20:04feel ready for maximal performance but
1:20:06you can probably push yourself a little
1:20:08bit more than that uh so it's it's
1:20:10already quite safe to rest until that
1:20:11point people rest a little bit
1:20:14excessively on average on average so
1:20:16what you're saying is if you feel like
1:20:17you're resting enough you're probably
1:20:19resting enough um that makes a ton of
1:20:23sense um
1:20:25strength training obviously the workout
1:20:28quality gets much better faster fiber
1:20:30recuitment much better and so there for
1:20:33hypertrophy training like if you're not
1:20:34gassed out and your local muscles feel
1:20:36like they're ready to go and you feel
1:20:37psychologically strong feel free to hit
1:20:39it again thing you can always rest
1:20:41longer your gym session is going to take
1:20:43longer for no extra benefit whereas for
1:20:45strength training you want to figure out
1:20:47when you're feeling pretty damn good and
1:20:49give yourself another maybe 30 seconds
1:20:51uh extra just to really collect yourself
1:20:53to make sure you're doing a good job job
1:20:55yeah yeah and really think of your
1:20:56performance like don't aim for 10 reps
1:20:59instead of 15 from the last set really
1:21:00try to go for the 15 again for strength
1:21:02probably more like five and go for five
1:21:04again well the thing with strength is if
1:21:06you're doing squats or you're doing
1:21:07deadlifts and You underr by 30 or 40
1:21:10seconds it can take what you're supposed
1:21:11to do another set of five and turn it
1:21:13into a set of two and a half and then
1:21:14you're like oh shit I this actually does
1:21:17not work in this case so strength
1:21:19training takes a longer time yes in
1:21:22inherently never mind that the warm-ups
1:21:24take a longer time and everything yeah
1:21:26that makes a ton of sense exercise
1:21:27intensity also has a big effect like
1:21:29higher rep work is easier to recover
1:21:31from in terms of acute uh fatigue it's
1:21:34actually harder to recover from in the
1:21:35long term interestingly but if you do
1:21:37squats you have a few things going for
1:21:39you one you're training uh very big part
1:21:41of your body at the same time second
1:21:42you're using a very high intensity if
1:21:44you're training for strength like
1:21:45usually one to five reps is more like
1:21:46strength work so both of these factors
1:21:49work against you in terms of requiring a
1:21:50longer period and then on top of that
1:21:52you want very good recovery in between
1:21:55set not just like okay recovery but
1:21:56actually going for almost the same level
1:21:58of performance again so yeah then you
1:21:59need a lot more rest yeah hypertrophy
1:22:02work beats the body into submission and
1:22:04as long as it's awake enough for the
1:22:06beating you're good uh strength work is
1:22:09better seen as showing off every set
1:22:11you're showing off quality versus
1:22:13quantity yes yes yes anything else to
1:22:16say about uh rest intervals that folks
1:22:18are maybe Mis understanding out there
1:22:19that they could use a better insight for
1:22:21him I think there there was some
1:22:22confusion with the latest meta analysis
1:22:24that that seem to find like uh 990
1:22:26seconds being optimal but I think that's
1:22:28a misunderstanding from the literature
1:22:30that uh for one the the dates are really
1:22:32were not very clear on what the analysis
1:22:34showed they basically showed benefits
1:22:36over 60 seconds and then beyond that
1:22:38point it was kind of unclear so I would
1:22:39say that 90 seconds is more like an
1:22:41average Sweet Spot in terms of time
1:22:43efficiency for people rather than that
1:22:45actually there's any benefit of resting
1:22:48less Long like mechanistically longer
1:22:50rest can only be good the only question
1:22:52is time efficiency time efficiency and
1:22:54from time efficiency standard we know
1:22:56that especially for hypertrophy work if
1:22:58you're getting in the Reps and the
1:22:59target muscle is a limiting factor
1:23:02cutting your rest times substantially
1:23:04improves your efficiency um so for
1:23:06strength work a little bit extra is
1:23:08usually good for hypertrophy work if
1:23:10you're still get in the Reps in and you
1:23:11feel the muscle getting limited and you
1:23:13don't have a ton of time to spend in the
1:23:14gym you can kind of get cracking yeah
1:23:17and get really really good gains without
1:23:18having to spend you know minutes and
1:23:20minutes and minutes between exercises Y
1:23:22and people don't want to get in like the
1:23:23Gran earlier details wrote a a review on
1:23:26this like a scientific paper you can
1:23:28check that out we also did a study
1:23:29together with Brad shonfeld where we we
1:23:31were one of the first to quite
1:23:32decisively show or at least show very
1:23:35strong data in support of the fact that
1:23:37three minutes is better than one on
1:23:39average for muscle growth and then
1:23:41subsequent research also founds greater
1:23:42protein synthesis and then the best
1:23:44study probably you have is by Longo at
1:23:45all where they show that it's the total
1:23:46volume regardless of the rest period so
1:23:48they had a lot of different groups where
1:23:50they really show compellingly like it's
1:23:51the total reps that you end up with for
1:23:53the workout that's the driver of muscle
1:23:55growth muscle growth I got it that makes
1:23:57perfect
1:23:58sense all right next
1:24:02question when we talked before you came
1:24:05here and we arranged all the questions
1:24:07in
1:24:09advance the we're gonna flip the script
1:24:12on you we're going to show you a video
1:24:15that was taken you didn't know and I'm
1:24:17just kidding maybe diet myths is the
1:24:20only clue I have in my brain about what
1:24:22we're talking about there are no doubt
1:24:25dozens and dozens of diet Mists but meno
1:24:27you have a knack for
1:24:30being the first if not one of the first
1:24:34people to
1:24:37question myths and assumptions in
1:24:41practice that almost nobody else has
1:24:43ever
1:24:44questioned and many times you end up
1:24:47correct sometimes you end up marginally
1:24:50making a good point on the net balance
1:24:53not overall super a big point but it's
1:24:55always incredibly awesome to have you in
1:24:58the industry because in the industry
1:25:00like with any social group a lot of
1:25:02people start to nod their heads and
1:25:04everyone's friends and evidence-based
1:25:05guys are all cool people you don't want
1:25:07to like call people out or disagree with
1:25:08them but you have the Dutch side of you
1:25:11which is 100% of you that uh will raise
1:25:14your hand and call out inconvenient
1:25:16uncomfortable truths so I'm these diet
1:25:18myths that you're going to share with us
1:25:20uh no doubt are going to probably insult
1:25:22me and my intellect earlier you punch
1:25:24Scott the video guy in the face just for
1:25:26sport tell us things that will upset us
1:25:28about diet
1:25:29myths one um thing which people should
1:25:33be familiar with on the RP channel is
1:25:36carbs and fats doesn't really matter
1:25:37it's Just Energy
1:25:38intake um I think it's pretty
1:25:40established now in evidence-based
1:25:41Fitness but there are still like a huge
1:25:43Camp of people with the insulin model
1:25:45and all that stuff and research is just
1:25:46very clear that total energy intake is
1:25:48what drives whether you're losing fat or
1:25:50not if you're in energy deficit your
1:25:52body has its thermodynamic law it's phys
1:25:54pH your body has to get rid of some of
1:25:56the energy from its own body if you're
1:25:58strength training they should be fat so
1:26:01whether you're keto dieting or high carb
1:26:03dieting fat loss is dictated by your
1:26:05energy intake versus energy expenditure
1:26:07not by whether you're doing keto by your
1:26:09insulin levels by whether you eat clean
1:26:11by whether you eat
1:26:12paleo vegan none of that stuff matters
1:26:15independent of energy intake if you get
1:26:18enough
1:26:19protein carbs and fats are more of a how
1:26:22you feel and how you perform question
1:26:25than a mechanistically what's going to
1:26:26let you lose more fat question yes what
1:26:28about muscle gain can I keto my way up
1:26:32to tons and tons of muscle on a very low
1:26:34carbohydrate diet and why don't we see
1:26:37in the real world almost anybody doing
1:26:39this it's a good question I'm currently
1:26:43probably in the minority of people in
1:26:44evidence based Fitness that thinks you
1:26:46can actually get maximum muscle growth
1:26:48on low carbohydrate intakes there's a
1:26:50previous met analysis from Vargas at all
1:26:53which found exactly this that keto diets
1:26:54on average result in similar fat-- free
1:26:56mass accretion as non-keto diets I'm
1:26:59currently performing a met analysis
1:27:01which is more broad not just keto versus
1:27:03non- keto but like literally every study
1:27:05that we have on higher versus lower
1:27:06carbohydrate intakes and we have a
1:27:08randomized control trial going um live
1:27:10this summer where we look at this in
1:27:12more detail but the current literature
1:27:14shows that you typically get similar
1:27:17gains when you control for energy intake
1:27:19now why don't people do this why don't
1:27:21we see more people like keto indiv ual
1:27:24getting super jacked well actually
1:27:26there's one in my team Lu filor he's
1:27:28super jacked can't keep bringing it up
1:27:30Luis he's the only Jack dude that does
1:27:32keto pretty much yeah I'm kidding but so
1:27:35yeah but there are not many people doing
1:27:36keto in the first place right so the
1:27:37base rate's already very low sure and
1:27:40high carb is kind of the popular thing
1:27:41these days whereas actually up until the
1:27:43what 50s or so low carb diets were more
1:27:46popular sure so natural bodybuilders
1:27:48have by and large done more low carb
1:27:49than high carb diets in any case what we
1:27:52do see clearly in the research is that
1:27:54when you try to mass as you would say I
1:27:55would say lean bulk or bulk it's very
1:27:58difficult on a keto diet you're you just
1:27:59have a very limited restriction a very
1:28:01limited set of food choices there's the
1:28:03appetite suppression that for some
1:28:04people comes with a ketogenic diet and
1:28:07especially when your fat intake has to
1:28:08exceed your protein intake you just get
1:28:10into crazy diets or you have to like
1:28:12consume you have to do crazy stuff like
1:28:14put butter in your coffee like things
1:28:16nobody would ever think of doing yeah
1:28:18right so uh we see that in research even
1:28:21when you in a research study we tell
1:28:23people like hey you have to consume this
1:28:25many calories but you have to do with
1:28:26keto and they're like okay no got it and
1:28:28then they're like 400 calories short and
1:28:29you're like bro and I like I tried
1:28:32yeah I want you to address a specific
1:28:35subsection of this myth obviously
1:28:37there's a lot of inference and
1:28:39conjecture which is totally fine that's
1:28:41our best model until we have really good
1:28:44data the big thing I see this
1:28:48impacting is of course we're not going
1:28:50to tell people to do keto bulk that's
1:28:52fucking stupid I mean if you want tock
1:28:54out but good luck there are lots and
1:28:57lots of people that when they're bulking
1:28:59they're trying to keep their
1:29:01carbohydrates as the main driver of
1:29:03caloric load and their fats to roughly
1:29:06minimum levels so we're talking about
1:29:09someone who's eating 250 grams of
1:29:11protein a day Jack bodybuilder guy 600
1:29:14grams of carbs per day and 75 to 100
1:29:17grams of fat at the highest intake
1:29:20sometimes 50 to 75 grams of fat for
1:29:22extra bonus points something something
1:29:24insulin
1:29:25mhm I found some of those hypotheses
1:29:27with insulin Drive compelling in the
1:29:29past nowadays I still find them
1:29:31compelling but no longer particularly
1:29:33swaying I think maybe there's something
1:29:35there maybe there's
1:29:36not I if I'm doing a diet where I'm
1:29:40trying to get 75 grams of fat for every
1:29:42600 grams of carbs it limits my ability
1:29:45to be flexible and to enjoy my life to a
1:29:47substantial degree I'm not saying for me
1:29:49uh for the average human mhm because
1:29:52holy shit there's only so much chicken
1:29:54rice you can eat on your bulk until
1:29:55you're like I'm never bodybuilding ever
1:29:57again yes um and at the very least it
1:30:00sour your mood daily and it loves less
1:30:02flexibility and if you have more fun
1:30:03living the bodybuilding life then you
1:30:05just get more jacked this is kind of
1:30:07universally accepted standard in Lifting
1:30:08for the Bro communities a lot of pro
1:30:10bodybuilders very good bodybuilders
1:30:11you'll tell them like it science says
1:30:12you're lifting like in a way that's
1:30:14slightly suboptimal they're like this is
1:30:15how how I love to do it and this is what
1:30:16keeps me in the game respect total
1:30:18respect but then you tell them like you
1:30:20don't need to eat very few grams of fat
1:30:22on your ballock and they're like you
1:30:22just don't know things and this is the
1:30:24suffering that is
1:30:25required is there a contradiction in
1:30:27terms there is this totally baseless
1:30:29menow and if I'm telling you look if I
1:30:32eat 500 grams of carbs instead of 600
1:30:36but now instead of 100 grams of fat per
1:30:39day I'm eating 150 the amount of variety
1:30:42and tastiness of food that I can
1:30:43accommodate is like infinitely higher I
1:30:47can even go out a few every few days and
1:30:48eat roughly normal like clean-ish um my
1:30:52wife and I have been um bullshitting to
1:30:54each other that might make a stupid
1:30:56cookbook in the future called halfway
1:30:57healthy which is you take normal recipes
1:31:00like mac and cheese and you just cut the
1:31:02fat by half which means there's still a
1:31:03shitload of fat in there but they're way
1:31:05better macros but still really good
1:31:08halfway healthy recipes all of a sudden
1:31:10are super easy chicken thighs all kinds
1:31:13of cuts of beef all sorts of stews are
1:31:16totally fine to eat if you can eat 150
1:31:18grams of fat per day but at 75 or 100
1:31:21you're like this is mostly just like
1:31:22fish and rice at this point is there
1:31:24anything in your mind that if someone's
1:31:27like look meno you're an esteemed guy
1:31:28you know your shit do I just
1:31:32not eat fats almost at all on my bulk or
1:31:36if I eat like 150 grams of fat and
1:31:37adjust for calories same calories a
1:31:39little bit less carb a bit more fat am I
1:31:41missing out on anything what would you
1:31:43say to that no absolutely not I think
1:31:45it's extremely unlikely that there there
1:31:47was any effect on with those intakes
1:31:49like in research we're really looking at
1:31:50the very low carb intakes whether those
1:31:52are detrimental we did a systematic
1:31:55review on the amount of carbohydrate
1:31:57intake that's required to maximize
1:31:58strength development earlier now we're
1:32:00working on muscle growth and it's 17 out
1:32:03of 17 studies essentially not finding
1:32:05any effect on strength development so
1:32:07the evidence is really sparse it's the
1:32:10the potential benefits of carbohydrates
1:32:12are really a distant extrapolation from
1:32:15research showing acute effects on
1:32:16performance and again often in studies
1:32:19of kind of like what we see with protein
1:32:21now with the Met analyses carbs versus
1:32:23nothing just like protein versus nothing
1:32:25well of course the carbs do better in
1:32:27many of the scenarios it's literally
1:32:28overnight fasted workout versus one
1:32:31group at breakfast they got carbs one
1:32:33group got food yeah exactly or even in
1:32:35sometimes in some of the studies you see
1:32:37that it doesn't even have to be food or
1:32:39it can be food like a placebo breakfast
1:32:41use yes Scott who do we have on that was
1:32:43saying that kind of jazz uh dat stength
1:32:46I believe it wase yes the data different
1:32:49strength guys were saying that they're
1:32:51amazing guys highly recommended they
1:32:53were saying that like actually what
1:32:54determines your workout performance is
1:32:56do you psychologically feel empty or
1:32:58feel full if you're full you'll perform
1:33:00really well if you feel empty even if
1:33:02technically speaking you're all loaded
1:33:03with everything you might not do so well
1:33:04because your stomach's like hey idiot
1:33:06stop lifting weights and go eat
1:33:07something that makes a ton of sense um
1:33:10so to you uh basically like if someone
1:33:13tried eating 600 grams of carbs per day
1:33:15and only 75 fats and their bul is really
1:33:18fucking miserable and the think of
1:33:19quitting bodybuilding to to you where
1:33:22there is the only point at which you
1:33:24would tell them eat more carbs is the
1:33:26point at which carbohydrates have just
1:33:28more advantages for performance and
1:33:29overall feel so you would tell them look
1:33:31try go down to 500 grams of carbs eat 50
1:33:35roughly 50 grams more fats see how you
1:33:37feel then try uh you know 450 or 400
1:33:40grams of carbs and eat a lot more fats
1:33:42see how you feel and kind of go from
1:33:44there would that be your recommendation
1:33:46yeah and the chance of needing
1:33:48carbohydrates is very L very low if
1:33:51you're not doing strength training with
1:33:53at least 10 sets per muscle group per
1:33:55session so if you're doing a bro split
1:33:57ironically and we actually also see this
1:33:59anecdotally I think you actually need a
1:34:01higher carbohydrate carbohydrate intake
1:34:03because your glycogen depletion
1:34:04procession might actually get to the
1:34:06point of critical levels for
1:34:07neuromuscular performance that makes
1:34:09sense so if you're uh doing a bro split
1:34:11you're doing 20 sets of chest the last
1:34:13few sets of chest you had better be on a
1:34:15high carb diet otherwise they start to
1:34:16suck yes which is kind of funny right
1:34:18because most people attribute like a
1:34:19full body workout with more like cardio
1:34:21type properties yeah but you don't don't
1:34:23deplete that much glycogen per muscle
1:34:25group that's what matters it's the
1:34:28glycogen that's stored in a certain
1:34:29muscle group that's available to that
1:34:31muscle group and the enzymes are lacking
1:34:32in the body to transfer that on a an
1:34:34acute basis to another muscle group yeah
1:34:36so it's just how much glycogen is in
1:34:38there and it's also not how much glucose
1:34:40is in your blood right now is really how
1:34:42much glycogen is already stored in there
1:34:44before you go into the workout that's
1:34:46like the reservoir the vat of energy
1:34:48that the muscle has to pull into for
1:34:50glycolytic energy production which is
1:34:52like high intensity energy production I
1:34:53think most of the super high carb stuff
1:34:55from prob bodybuilding comes from a use
1:34:58of uh exogenous insulin which has some
1:35:02Necessities for higher carbohydrate
1:35:03intake and some really cool synergistic
1:35:05Pathways that simply just don't yield
1:35:06much in normal amounts and also maybe
1:35:09the Bro split is one of them in addition
1:35:11to that and of course there's I would
1:35:12never discount status quo bias as a
1:35:15reason why people do things like some
1:35:16people just do things because people did
1:35:18them this way and then you tell them a
1:35:19new way and they're like nah but then
1:35:20everyone else is doing it they're like
1:35:22oh that's the new way and now they do it
1:35:24yeah and the status quo bi is
1:35:25particularly large for people that have
1:35:27for trends that show fashion effects or
1:35:29cyclical effects and that's the case
1:35:31with a lot of things in Fitness like a
1:35:32lot of people think everybody thinks
1:35:34this way it's like yeah now they do yeah
1:35:37four years ago that was not the case at
1:35:38all yes and four years later that might
1:35:40not be the case anymore either yes I
1:35:43actually have uh a few folks in the
1:35:45comment sections will sometimes say like
1:35:47everything we needed to know about
1:35:48lifting we already knew in the 90s and I
1:35:50just I just want to tell them like you
1:35:52you need someone to talk to that'll hold
1:35:54you real tight and explain the world to
1:35:56you but they do sometimes have a really
1:35:58excellent point that because some of
1:35:59these things are cyclical like Scott and
1:36:01I did a review of luo's workout and
1:36:04legitimately like almost everything he
1:36:06said was like better than shit today he
1:36:09just happened to be in one of those
1:36:10waves of like knowledge and
1:36:12understanding he's like you got to
1:36:13control the weight you got to do any
1:36:14Ecentric everything's meaningful like
1:36:16Focus blah blah and we were like man Lou
1:36:19had it figured out so sometimes you're
1:36:21just cherry-picking right of whatever
1:36:23decade you likeed before meno is there
1:36:25any problem so okay with carbohydrates
1:36:27bodybuilders no they're already they're
1:36:28supposed to be healthy carbs like no one
1:36:29saying eat a bunch of fucking lowfat
1:36:31cheesecake and that's how you get 600
1:36:32grams of carbs but fats if I'm saying
1:36:36okay fine metah henselman he's got
1:36:38excellent hair I love his accent I'll
1:36:39try to do what he says I'm going to
1:36:42reduce my carbs a little bit increase my
1:36:43fats when I'm bulking is there a kind of
1:36:46source of fats priority that you would
1:36:47say is probably better for health and
1:36:48maybe performance and maybe muscle
1:36:50growth and is there maybe because like
1:36:51obviously I'm just going to go to like
1:36:52Hardies and eat five triple
1:36:54cheeseburgers though that might be fun
1:36:55for the soul maybe not as good for the
1:36:57muscles what do you think interestingly
1:36:58there's some research that certain fatty
1:36:59acids are indeed more conducive towards
1:37:01muscle growth and it seems to be largely
1:37:04the same ones that are good for health
1:37:05so that's that's nice that's a positive
1:37:07Omega 3es are a big one that stands out
1:37:10not massive effects but we do have
1:37:11multiple studies showing increased
1:37:13muscle protein synthesis sometimes lead
1:37:14Mass accretion strength gains recovery
1:37:17so lots of good stuff there again effect
1:37:19sizes small stuff but a wide range of
1:37:22potential benefits plus the health
1:37:24benefits some cognitive benefits so I
1:37:26would say Omega 3es are a really good
1:37:28one and then mostly monounsaturated
1:37:31fatty acids have some promising effects
1:37:35um also for fat loss interestingly I was
1:37:36on this train decades ago and people
1:37:38shat on me that now look
1:37:41who's good they have some benefits for
1:37:44fat loss progenic effects again small
1:37:47stuff but compared to saturated fats
1:37:49there are some studies finding benefits
1:37:51yeah and poly unsaturated fats in
1:37:53general or unsaturated fats in general
1:37:56unsaturated fats both mono and poly yeah
1:37:58have trended in some research even in
1:38:01acute studies where people are not
1:38:02lifting they give them polyunsaturated
1:38:04fats versus saturated fats and they
1:38:06actually gain more lean lean body mass
1:38:08I've seen those studies yeah that's
1:38:09crazy stuff because we don't really see
1:38:10that in the exercise science studies
1:38:12yeah so it's um yeah hard to hard to
1:38:15explain but we do have we actually have
1:38:17multiple studies showing that people
1:38:18that consume more poly unsaturated fats
1:38:20gain more lean body mass yeah so and
1:38:23also some associative data I wouldn't
1:38:25put too much talk into those but yeah
1:38:27combined with the potential health
1:38:28benefits versus like just going all in
1:38:30on saturated fat which is like the
1:38:32carnivore approach for people that just
1:38:34want to consume meat and eggs and you
1:38:36just have a lot of manhood energy and I
1:38:37feel that um so things like um nuts nut
1:38:42natural nut Butters olive oil canola oil
1:38:46and um avocado avocado oil things like
1:38:49like that the the Hipster fats the you
1:38:52know like Whole Food fats those are
1:38:54pretty good for getting Jack ironically
1:38:55because you're not going to find a lot
1:38:57of Jack people at Whole Foods yeah
1:38:58mostly because they're not wild stupid
1:39:00animals like us and piss away their time
1:39:02lifting weights yeah and then there's
1:39:03there's a little bit of basis to not
1:39:05completely neglect saturated fat intake
1:39:07of course because it's helpful for
1:39:09cholesterol and testosterone production
1:39:11yes so theoretically over the long run
1:39:14you might get some small benefits from
1:39:16that couple eggs a day probably will was
1:39:18well on the way to do that two actually
1:39:19will already pretty much get you the
1:39:21maximum cholesterol intake that's is
1:39:23uh beneficial for muscle Grove in some
1:39:25research cholesterol actually improves
1:39:26muscle Grove in some studies if you're
1:39:28very low on cholesterol at will yeah
1:39:30mostly mostly that's indeed um and the
1:39:33research is not super clear but um yeah
1:39:36potentially some benefits of you know an
1:39:37egg or two a day yeah so basically tldr
1:39:41try to experiment with higher fats and
1:39:43slightly lower carbs when you're bulking
1:39:45you may you may discover that you get
1:39:46even better gains or similar gains with
1:39:49way more diet flexibility you can go out
1:39:50to eat with your friends more often and
1:39:52even sticking to healthy
1:39:53foods you can have just better food
1:39:55tastier food and even some better health
1:39:57outcomes because of the pretty decent
1:39:59health effects of those really high
1:40:01quality monounsaturated some
1:40:02polyunsaturated and omega-3 kind of fats
1:40:05yeah omega-3 and monounsaturated fats in
1:40:07particular have a really good record for
1:40:08health benefits yes yes I love
1:40:11it all right our last topic for today
1:40:15many myths that we've run into maybe the
1:40:18most painful myths are the ones that hit
1:40:20the closest to home like if you thought
1:40:22Dragons Were were real but they weren't
1:40:24that one hurt it did hurt when you were
1:40:26eight but as an adult for me it was more
1:40:28like last week actually last week yeah
1:40:31you looked at the phog gentic record and
1:40:32you were like six slimmed animals are
1:40:34almost entirely missing damn it however
1:40:38however probably the most painful myths
1:40:40are the ones that impact our gains
1:40:42directly and the most painful of those
1:40:44are the ones that leave us with less
1:40:46jacked arms than we could have had I
1:40:49mean
1:40:50damn and recently I've been talking to a
1:40:52few people and they keep telling me that
1:40:54shoulders are more important to have
1:40:56than arms for like sex appeal and I
1:40:58would love to hear them but my arms are
1:41:00so big I just don't care what they're
1:41:02saying so please help me not have skinny
1:41:06loser arms that get me pushed into the
1:41:08locker at school what myths are out
1:41:11there about bicep and tricep training
1:41:12that we really want to attend to and not
1:41:14have to commit ourselves so that we get
1:41:16bigger arms finally for once in our life
1:41:18something will work I think for biceps
1:41:21training the way many people go about it
1:41:23to they have like their dumble curls
1:41:24their barble curls and then a bunch of
1:41:26compound movements and what they really
1:41:28neglect is the lengthen position so you
1:41:31do a really good job of that with your
1:41:32exercise selection of doing exercises
1:41:35which can be with a dumble like incline
1:41:37curls where you make sure that there's
1:41:38still tension in the bottom basan curls
1:41:40cable curls If You Preach your curls can
1:41:43be pretty good the biceps is a bit
1:41:44shortened but you do get high tension in
1:41:46the bottom position so concentration
1:41:49curls and then leaning back that's also
1:41:51really good you can get pretty high you
1:41:53need a combination of high muscle
1:41:55lengths and high tension at long lengths
1:41:58those seem to be kind of equally
1:41:59important and it's kind of like you can
1:42:00think of them as a multiplier effect you
1:42:02can either have very high tension in the
1:42:04bottom and then even if the muscle's not
1:42:05that lengthened you get a pretty good
1:42:06effect you get the probably the best
1:42:09effect at least in theory if you get
1:42:10both like long lengths and then high
1:42:12tension there for the biceps this is
1:42:14quite well demonstrated including a meta
1:42:16analysis that on average at longer
1:42:17lengths there was more muscle growths at
1:42:19least with isometric contractions than
1:42:20at shorter lengths and that's exactly
1:42:23what you're not doing with most compound
1:42:25exercises dumble curls bble curls in the
1:42:27bottom position with a dumble or a bble
1:42:29curl because of gravity there's no
1:42:31tension on the biceps functionally close
1:42:33to zero now you can do it like like
1:42:34Jarett where you push up the elbows to
1:42:36the to the font I like that lipstick on
1:42:38a pig you're just like have you ever
1:42:41heard that term that's right you're not
1:42:42American putting lipstick on a pig
1:42:44something is already ugly you put
1:42:45lipstick on it makes it a little bit
1:42:46better but it doesn't matter like as
1:42:47much as you would like uh obviously like
1:42:50four curls like that it definitely makes
1:42:52barell dou Coss better but if you could
1:42:55do them at a different angle and have
1:42:56maximum tension instead of just a little
1:42:58bit more tension you'd be even better
1:42:59still yeah yeah I think that's in
1:43:01general you can't you can't really go
1:43:03wrong with it and it might be beneficial
1:43:05so length and biased exercises for the
1:43:07biceps are probably very underrated and
1:43:09underused underused what are your
1:43:11favorites I like Beijing curls a lot
1:43:13because you can basically adopt the
1:43:14resistance curve exactly to how you want
1:43:16it and you can let your elbows come back
1:43:18further if you want just move yourself
1:43:19further to the front um the incline
1:43:22curls that you do where you're not just
1:43:24on a bench and the arm is straight down
1:43:26you actually go so far down that the um
1:43:28so far down that the arm is still kind
1:43:30of diagonal in the bottom position so
1:43:32that you still have tension right
1:43:34because if the arm is vertical in the
1:43:36bottom position with any free weight
1:43:37there's no more tension on the biceps
1:43:38right at least there's a big stretch but
1:43:41not a ton of tension whereas if just
1:43:42withstanding curls instead of incline
1:43:44curls there's neither tension nor a
1:43:46stretch exactly and so incline curls are
1:43:48better but flat bench curls are even
1:43:50better and technically speaking even
1:43:52though it's really annoying although if
1:43:54you have a decline ab machine where you
1:43:56can hook in your legs that's probably
1:43:58one of the best places to do dumbbell
1:43:59curls in because at the very bottom it's
1:44:01both maximally stretched and very close
1:44:03to the highest Force you'll experience
1:44:05yeah I like those some people get um the
1:44:07shoulders don't like it as much in that
1:44:08case just reduce the stretch a little
1:44:10bit yeah or just start lighter with
1:44:11higher reps and work in I I like now I'm
1:44:14doing like sometimes I even use the 30s
1:44:16but when I started I was doing the 15s
1:44:18and getting excellent stuff I tried the
1:44:2020s and I was like my delts are like nah
1:44:22you're good bro Glen aoral joint was
1:44:24like we're good but now I do the 20s uh
1:44:26sorry do the 25s on one day and the 30s
1:44:28on another and I feel great so a lot of
1:44:30times when people say oh this this
1:44:31bothers my XYZ joint one of the problems
1:44:33they're usually committing is they just
1:44:35like went right into crazy loading and
1:44:36if they just worked into it your body
1:44:38gets used to almost everything yeah
1:44:42another myth um myth common mistake I
1:44:45see is in how people count the volume
1:44:47for the biceps so some people will go so
1:44:50far as to say compound work doesn't
1:44:52count and and then other people are like
1:44:53yeah no compound work is all you need
1:44:55and the truth is somewhere in the middle
1:44:57both equally wrong yeah and equally
1:44:59right yeah and it also depends on the
1:45:00type of exercise because we see in
1:45:02research that if you have a fixed
1:45:03Implement like a barble something that
1:45:05not like a dumble where you can move
1:45:06both arms
1:45:07independently you get much more biceps
1:45:10activity and that's because of
1:45:11horizontal forces so if you do a pull-up
1:45:13even a wide grip pull-up biceps activity
1:45:15is actually quite substantial because
1:45:17what your body essentially does is if
1:45:18you Flex the biceps it's like bending
1:45:20the bar in powerlifting that's Q mhm
1:45:22that horizontal Force technically
1:45:24speaking reduces the moment arm for
1:45:25shoulder reduction more intuitively put
1:45:28the since the bar cannot bend the force
1:45:30that you're putting into bending the bar
1:45:32essentially kind of helps pull you up
1:45:34yep so the biceps and the lats they work
1:45:37as a force pair to to get you up now you
1:45:39can do that with um like a pullup bar or
1:45:42a barble with a barble row but if you're
1:45:44doing like a dumble row we see in
1:45:46research that dumble rows they grow the
1:45:47biceps like half as much as um biceps
1:45:51curls and you can actually still count
1:45:54them but half so and you probably also
1:45:56don't want to get all your volume from
1:45:58that because again no tension in the
1:45:59length of position and stuff but if
1:46:00you're doing 10 sets of rows that counts
1:46:02for something sure so I would count that
1:46:04as five sets of biceps work on average
1:46:07um so that's that's a big one you you do
1:46:08count the compounds work but maybe not
1:46:10fully depending on the exercise and
1:46:12especially not if it's like a dumble or
1:46:14a non-fixed
1:46:15Implement and then what you want is the
1:46:17total weekly set volume per week that's
1:46:19what you want to optimize for for
1:46:21triceps it's a similar thing where
1:46:24people neglect the specifically the long
1:46:27head they don't they do like push downs
1:46:29and then a bunch of horizontal or
1:46:31vertical presses kind of like for the
1:46:33biceps and again you're neglecting the
1:46:36stretched position so you want either
1:46:38overhead triceps extensions or Skull
1:46:40Crushers skull overs something where the
1:46:43elbow is more elevated either completely
1:46:45overhead or at least somewhat over your
1:46:47body not like a push
1:46:48down if you only do the dips push Downs
1:46:53exercise like that then the long head
1:46:54cannot fully activate because the long
1:46:56head also assists the lats in bringing
1:46:59the elbow back to the body so um if
1:47:02anything you train the long head a bit
1:47:04with something like chinups but it
1:47:06cannot fully activate there because it
1:47:07would sabotage the biceps so muscle can
1:47:09only contract or not contract right and
1:47:10the body will activate it and make it
1:47:12contract if it it's not beneficial for
1:47:14the movement and with something like a
1:47:17bench press if the Long Heads were to
1:47:18contract it would pull the elbow back
1:47:19down so it it helps in extending the
1:47:21elbow but it also pulls the elbow back
1:47:23down so in research we see that uh at
1:47:25least the available research bench
1:47:27presses grow the triceps about half as
1:47:29well as they grow the packs and the
1:47:31growth difference seems to come
1:47:32primarily from the long head so the long
1:47:34head is really not well trained at all
1:47:35by horizontal pressing type exercises
1:47:37even if you're using a barble because
1:47:39the same thing applies as with the
1:47:40biceps fixed Implement you get
1:47:42horizontal forces much higher activity
1:47:44in the
1:47:45arms so again you want to you know
1:47:48dumble um dumble bench press count at
1:47:51not even half I would say man if I'm
1:47:54doing lots of push downs and Skull
1:47:58Crushers but I'm also doing lots of
1:48:02straight arm pullovers it's a great
1:48:04combination is that a good long head hit
1:48:06and do I then not so much need to worry
1:48:08about overhead extensions for triceps
1:48:10yes and I think something like La
1:48:12prayers or pullovers in general straight
1:48:14arm pullovers are a really great
1:48:16exercise to balance out the triceps
1:48:19involvement because many people like
1:48:21triceps or elbow are very common in
1:48:23lifting and if you just train the medial
1:48:26and the lateral head with all of the
1:48:28pressing all of the push Downs you don't
1:48:29do anything for the long head and you
1:48:31want to get that volume for the long
1:48:33head you have to do a lot of other
1:48:34isolation work and then your total
1:48:37volume for the medial and the lateral
1:48:39head they is is way too much kind of
1:48:41like the front Els where many people
1:48:42have more of an overtraining problem
1:48:43than an under trining problem yeah and
1:48:47um exercises that specifically hit the
1:48:49long hat but not the lateral and the
1:48:51medial head that's basically just
1:48:53pullover type movements yes so you
1:48:55really want those exercises to balance
1:48:57out the triceps involvement and it's an
1:49:00intended target of the exercise many
1:49:02people will complain like oh I feel my
1:49:04triceps my pullovers it's like great
1:49:06great you can train the lots and the
1:49:08triceps long because they're an
1:49:10excellent lat exercise and an excellent
1:49:12tricep exercise and an excellent rear
1:49:14delt exercise as well because like how
1:49:16could it not be it's maximum stretch and
1:49:18tension at the same time I love it
1:49:21anything from a PR progamming
1:49:23perspective and a frequency perspective
1:49:25that you think people are missing from
1:49:26biceps and triceps training to kind of
1:49:27round out this discussion because
1:49:29excellent exercise critiques but like
1:49:31one of my things and maybe we can agree
1:49:33or disagree on this um I think that you
1:49:36know muscles like the back the chest
1:49:38depending on the person the legs can
1:49:40take like a long time to recover if
1:49:42you're training them either bro split
1:49:43style or sort of normal style but to me
1:49:46it's like a lot of times biceps and
1:49:48triceps can recover quite quickly and if
1:49:50you're like sitting around half the week
1:49:52and your biceps trips are neither going
1:49:53to be trained soon nor are they tired
1:49:56shouldn't you be training them maybe a
1:49:57little bit more often potentially than
1:49:59you train other larger muscle groups
1:50:00what do you think n that's stupid bro
1:50:02okay and man of hens has been great no
1:50:06um I do actually disagree with that or
1:50:07at least let me put it this way I don't
1:50:08think there's compelling evidence to
1:50:10show a difference let's say if you in
1:50:12your own experience can train bis orasms
1:50:15more often but aren't are you missing
1:50:18out I don't think so I think it's they
1:50:20respond the same way as other muscle
1:50:22groups like total weekly volume is what
1:50:24matters um if for volume people probably
1:50:27especially type bro individuals men they
1:50:31they will ER on the side of overtraining
1:50:33the arms versus other muscle groups
1:50:34because then they have like a back day
1:50:36and then they have also arm day but they
1:50:37neglect the fact that you hit arms on
1:50:39the back day as well yeah maybe
1:50:41independent of volume they can handle
1:50:43higher frequency but I'm a big frequency
1:50:45proponent anyway right so you would say
1:50:47more frequency is probably good anyway
1:50:49whether you're talking about one muscle
1:50:50or the other exactly yeah excellent meno
1:50:54this has been awesome thank you which is
1:50:57unusual because usually I fucking hate
1:50:58talking to you yeah usually our
1:51:00conversations are like at best oh yeah
1:51:03at best usually like outright
1:51:05infuriating very mid very mid mid
1:51:08whatever the kids are saying bet um
1:51:12before we sign you off I want to make a
1:51:14public service announcement uh against
1:51:17your will and not on but on your behalf
1:51:20um every now and again folks ask ask
1:51:22what is like a good personal training
1:51:24certification to get and a good uh
1:51:26personal training course to take and I
1:51:28used to say a bunch of different ones
1:51:29and there's tons of different really
1:51:30good ones but my absolute number rank
1:51:33one is the Mano hanselman's PT
1:51:36course um there are many I'm actually
1:51:39very good friends with meno in real life
1:51:40and so you think this maybe that's
1:51:42biasing me and maybe it is but I'm also
1:51:44able to see meno's ideas in various
1:51:46regards and some of them I just quite
1:51:47frankly disagree with you on with all
1:51:48total due
1:51:49respect frequency and training I think
1:51:51we disagree protein int I think we
1:51:53disagree but your PT course is so godamn
1:51:58in-depth and so Broad in addition to
1:52:01that and so complete and so meticulous
1:52:04and takes so damn long to get through
1:52:07that you really will be receiving what I
1:52:09consider a halfway to Master's level
1:52:12education in how to train people and how
1:52:13to control their diets if you get
1:52:16through the metah hm's PT course so if
1:52:19you guys are interested in really
1:52:20upgrading your skills and you really
1:52:22want to certification and let's say you
1:52:23work for a gym that's like you know we
1:52:25want you to have a CT but we don't care
1:52:26which one I just can't recommend the
1:52:28manah PT course enough uh of course
1:52:31where can people go to find more about
1:52:33that course where can they go to find
1:52:34more of your insights I love your
1:52:36Instagram page because that's kind of
1:52:37how I learn half the shit I know I just
1:52:38scroll through like you usually have
1:52:40really awesome slides where like the
1:52:42first thing is some bombastic claim but
1:52:44then it's followup very good detailed
1:52:45nuance and then a summary of literature
1:52:47at the end what I like to do is just um
1:52:50just go through the first and then I
1:52:51just get bored and I just stop scrolling
1:52:53but for folks that want to learn a lot
1:52:54following you on Instagram is an
1:52:56excellent place where else can people
1:52:57get a taste of the menow as I've learned
1:52:59to call it mostly these days I'm indeed
1:53:01on Instagram and YouTube at men. Hansons
1:53:04for both and on my website meno
1:53:06hanson.com you can see the the CH
1:53:08website you can also get a free email
1:53:09course if you're not familiar with my
1:53:11contents you get like a tour of my most
1:53:12popular contents and then see if you
1:53:14like that excellent I love it to thank
1:53:16you so much my pleasure all right peace
1:53:22[Music]
1:53:26[Applause]

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