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Building AI-Ready, Human-Centered Paid Media Strategies With Navah Hopkins — Transcript

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0:03You're listening to Built to Convert,
0:06the podcast where growth-minded
0:07marketers, founders, and creators come
0:10to level up. No hype, no guesswork, just
0:13bold insights that drive results. Let's
0:15go.
0:21>> Welcome to Built to Convert, the podcast
0:23where we explore how strategy,
0:24analytics, and creativity come together
0:26to drive meaningful growth. I'm your
0:27host Tyler Lane, founder of Session
0:29Interactive. In each episode, we sit
0:31down with marketers, founders, and
0:32operators who are building real momentum
0:34inside today's most interesting
0:35companies.
0:36This episode is brought to you by
0:37Session Interactive, the performance
0:39marketing agency for brands that are
0:40serious about growth. Whether you're in
0:42B2B, SaaS, DTC, e-commerce, or anywhere
0:44in between, we help marketing teams cut
0:47through the noise with smarter SEO, paid
0:49media, AI integration, and analytics
0:51that drive real revenue. Learn more at
0:53sessioninteractive.com.
0:55All right, we got a we got an exciting
0:57one today. I say that all the time, but
0:58this is truly exciting. Not to diminish
1:01my past guests by any means. Nava
1:03Hopkins, here to join us, has spent 17
1:05years in digital marketing. I think
1:07she's got a couple more years than me,
1:08honestly. Started in SEO,
1:10crossing over to PPC, running her own
1:12consult consultancy, shaping how
1:15practitioners think about automation at
1:17Optmyzr, and now serving as the ads
1:19liaison for Microsoft Advertising, where
1:22her job is to bridge between the
1:24advertising community and the product
1:26team. She is a founding board member of
1:29the Paid Search Association,
1:31a regular contributor to a reputable
1:34industry magazine and not magazine or
1:37organization and and website Search
1:39Engine Journal and Search Engine Land,
1:40and one of the most recognized voices
1:42voices in paid media, to say the least.
1:44We could go on. We could go on. Nava,
1:46great to see you. I really appreciate
1:47your time. Thanks for joining us.
1:49>> Uh such a delight. Um I I I got to say
1:53one of my favorite things that wasn't
1:55mentioned about like why I'm I'm
1:57interesting is that I'm also incredibly
1:59nerdy. And so the line that's missing
2:02from that bio is that I'm powered by
2:04metal music, games, and my three rescue
2:07pups.
2:07>> Hell yeah, I love that. Let's be clear.
2:10It's
2:11Yes, we do a lot of work, but we have
2:13many passions and interests outside. So
2:16uh nerd community unite. I love Yeah.
2:19We'll We'll unpack a lot of that. Yeah.
2:21Now, but we like to set set things up
2:23and talk about kind of just the a little
2:25bit of background. Obviously, we tee you
2:27up nicely with the intro, but I love the
2:30story from and I've obviously this isn't
2:33unique to you by any means, but I've um
2:36it's always impressive impressive to me
2:38when someone's immersed in SEO and all
2:40the changes and certain things and then
2:43makes a switch over to paid media, paid
2:45search in particular. I always thought
2:47that was really impressive in a lot of
2:48ways, honestly.
2:49>> I don't think it's terribly impressive.
2:53But maybe it's it's just because the the
2:55main reason I shifted cuz I got into
2:57digital marketing in 2008. Um the reason
3:00I shifted was I got into SEO right when
3:03Panda and Penguin hit. And I had a lot
3:06of thoughts and feelings about the
3:07ethics of what I was doing within the
3:10SEO community cuz this was
3:13like I I to be honest, I started doing
3:15digital marketing while I was still in
3:17university. So this was me kind of
3:19figuring things out, going from the
3:21English teacher I wanted to be to the
3:23marketer that I knew I was going to be.
3:26>> Sure.
3:27>> But I just I I could not wrap my head
3:30around the ethics. And so I ended up uh
3:33making the switch to PPC because at the
3:35time you could actually get certified in
3:37Google Ads for $50. And then like that's
3:40a really great certificate to wave
3:42around and say like, "Hey, let me help
3:44you." Um the other thing that's worth
3:47noting in this whole origin story is as
3:50I mentioned, I wanted to be an English
3:52teacher. Uh
3:54I tried to start a nonprofit called
3:58Angeled. I I tried and failed. Like it
4:00was I call it my non-MBA MBA because I
4:02learned all the things not to do in
4:03business.
4:04Um but what it really did that was
4:06incredibly useful is it gave me a lot of
4:08connections with universities,
4:11investors, a lot of the innovation
4:13community in Boston. And so as I made
4:16that switch to PPC, I suddenly had a lot
4:18of people that I could connect with and
4:20learn from and and engage with. So
4:23um the switch
4:26was an ethics-driven one. Um
4:29but what because I started off in SEO, I
4:31had empathy for SEO workflows. Um I I
4:34actually consider it a great gift. Um
4:36less a challenge but just a gift uh to
4:39have started in SEO and have empathy for
4:41SEO where where it can and is growing
4:44now.
4:45>> Yeah.
4:45I love that just the perspective I mean
4:48I love the
4:49the the breakdown of of wanting to be a
4:52English teacher but understanding your
4:53kind of your true calling around
4:55marketing, if you will.
4:57It's uh
4:58I love the component just the the
5:00ability and perspective, I think, around
5:04the post-click, honestly, when cuz SEO,
5:08obviously, the technical aspects,
5:10on-page and off-page components and the
5:12usability components are core across the
5:16board. Well, when and paid media, not to
5:18marginalize or diminish it, but it's
5:20it's a ton of platform work and often
5:23that post-click gets neglected, I feel
5:25like, with more traditional paid search
5:27professionals. Like, why isn't this
5:29converting? The paid the platform's good
5:30to go. It's like, well, have we looked
5:32at the website and the performance? Um
5:35so I think like I feel like that back
5:36background, would you agree, just gives
5:38you kind of a a leg up or it did in the
5:40in terms of your perspective?
5:41>> De- definitely in in the early days, um
5:44100% it was like
5:47I'll I'll also throw it out there that
5:50even SEOs
5:53kind at the time fell into different
5:54buckets. So whether if you were a
5:56content SEO you might not have thought
5:58as much about the human experience of
5:59being on a landing page and and what
6:01does that actually do to make it easier
6:02to convert? Cuz CRO or conversion rate
6:05optimization was a whole other subset of
6:07skills and today we we really kind of
6:09lump it all together in into search
6:11engine optimization.
6:13We want to talk about the the G word and
6:15GEO.
6:15>> Mhm.
6:16>> Um but no I I just I just think that
6:18there's a lot of
6:21human empathy that digital marketers
6:24either have or don't have and the
6:26technical skills can follow. If if
6:28you're not thinking about that human
6:29experience from every stage of the
6:32journey, you're going to ultimately lose
6:33the customer because you could have the
6:36best landing page but if your conversion
6:39tracking isn't set up correctly or if
6:40that form fill isn't wired to your CRM
6:43and you haven't done the test to confirm
6:45that it does.
6:47That that that's that's a human problem.
6:49That's not a that's not the tech
6:51problem.
6:52>> Exactly. Yeah, really well said. Let's
6:54talk about kind of
6:56um earlier in your career you you you
6:58started a your own consulting firm. You
7:00did that for a number of years. Talk to
7:02me about some of the lessons you learned
7:04and maybe your desire to
7:08um wanting to keep it going potentially
7:10or in transition or when you
7:12transitioned from there to Optimizely.
7:15>> Yeah, so uh I had the pleasure of
7:18blessing you of working for a company
7:21called WordStream for 5 and 1/2 years.
7:23And
7:24I I enjoyed I enjoyed my time there
7:27quite a bit. Like there's a number of us
7:28that worked there and then went on to
7:30work at platforms different uh other
7:32major SaaS companies. Like it was a
7:33really good launching pad. And I spent
7:37time in between there and the
7:39consultancy
7:41working for a few different folks and
7:43even
7:44uh um some of the clients I I would take
7:47on
7:48at WordStream and have questions about
7:50am I happy serving
7:52this person or am I happy serving this
7:55brand? And so the consultancy allowed me
7:58a freedom
7:59to say yes or no to client work that I
8:02can't have as an employee. Um and
8:06candidly the only reason I went back to
8:09being an employee for Optimizely is
8:11because I had such great and tremendous
8:13respect um for Fred Vallaeys, uh who was
8:16a consulting client who ended up taking
8:18me on board as a full-time employee. And
8:21I'll be honest, if it wasn't for the
8:23fact that it was Microsoft and the
8:25opportunity to help the amount of humans
8:27I get to help at Microsoft today, I
8:30probably would still be at Optimizely
8:32cuz Optimizely is amazing. Like shout
8:33out to Optimizely. Um but for people
8:36debating
8:38where they want to be, like do they want
8:39to be in agency, do they want to be in
8:42house, do they want to do their own
8:43consultancy,
8:44you effectively have to ask yourself are
8:46you okay doing work for someone because
8:48someone else says so. And if the answer
8:51is no,
8:52even if you are
8:57enjoying the idea of working on a team,
8:59even if you're enjoying the idea of
9:01working in kind of a product
9:03perspective, like you still want to be
9:05able to to detach. So that's where a
9:07fractional C-suite executive is really
9:10helpful. That's where again the
9:11consultancy is really helpful.
9:14And I would encourage folks to think
9:15about um exploring even an LLC just to
9:19have it in case you need it. Um because
9:23whether you're doing speaking gigs or
9:24writing gigs or you're doing uh side
9:29side hustle work, the tax infrastructure
9:32and I'm not a tax professional, like do
9:33not use this as tax advice.
9:35Um but just like having an entity set up
9:38is a lot of freedom and a lot of
9:41confidence boosting that I don't think
9:43enough people have. So, just like um,
9:46not enough people understand the stock
9:47market and how to invest in stocks, I
9:50don't think enough people understand
9:52business entity mechanics. Like it's
9:54it's overcomplicated.
9:56>> Yeah, I agree. I love I love that kind
9:58of repositioning and just understanding.
9:59I think that's just like great advice.
10:01It's like you're not Not everyone's cut
10:03out to be an entrepreneur, but at the
10:05same time like why not have that as a
10:09as just an ability, especially you're
10:12talking and we're you and I are
10:13connected to a lot of the same people,
10:14but amazing practitioners and you know,
10:17that work for full-time companies but
10:19easily take on some side gigs or certain
10:21things like that and
10:23and have some additional flexibility and
10:25run it like themselves and see if that's
10:26some something of interest to them or
10:27maybe they won't want to keep a the
10:29full-time gig, who knows, but options.
10:32Let's Let's create them.
10:33>> And in the AI era, like
10:36we're going to start seeing one-person
10:38agencies. And so, having that that
10:41entity
10:43comfort and confidence now will make it
10:45much easier for you because there's
10:46going to come a point where everyone's
10:49going to want to do that. So, you can
10:50kind of see that on the horizon ahead of
10:52everybody else, you can carve out your
10:54your own slice.
10:55>> Yeah, I agree. Yeah, one-person agencies
10:57are are definitely coming.
11:00Uh, Chuck Aikens is a local guy here in
11:02Colorado and shout out to Chuck. He's
11:03doing He I was talking to him the other
11:05day. We had him on the podcast and it's
11:07it's him and his agents, right? So,
11:09that's his That's his um, that's his
11:12employees. Let's talk about that. I
11:13mean, I love the breakdown between
11:15optimizer and and in the shift into to
11:17Microsoft. Yeah. You definitely describe
11:19yourself as a someone bringing human
11:22perspective to AI inside a company
11:24that's like betting heavily on AI. What
11:27does that actually mean in when you're
11:29sitting in a product meeting
11:31and the room disagrees with you, for
11:33example, around
11:34>> I
11:35love this question because I was
11:37actually hired to do that job. Like that
11:40is exactly why I was hired.
11:42Um so, just to to back up a little bit
11:44so that folks have the context,
11:45I I've spent most of my career working
11:48in software companies. Um and the reason
11:51that I love software so much is that
11:53when you we have a conversation, we can
11:55help
11:57the person we're talking to.
11:59When you do it in software, you can help
12:01hundreds, you can help thousands. Like
12:02there's the scale of your impact is
12:06demonstrably greater.
12:08So, the reason that I am so
12:13in on AI being helpful is that it can
12:16scale the best parts of us. That said,
12:19it also could scale the worst parts of
12:21us if we're not careful. So, my job, my
12:25entire job is to be a feedback loop
12:27between the industry into the product
12:29org. So, when there are areas where um
12:33something will hurt a customer or it
12:36there's a chance it could hurt a
12:37customer,
12:39nine times out of 10, people just didn't
12:41realize it. So, when it's brought up, it
12:43gets taken down, it gets put away. Um
12:46when there's a strategic disagreement,
12:49so for example,
12:50um
12:51should something be opt-in or opt-out? I
12:54am almost always going to advocate
12:56for opt-in because people making a
12:58conscious choice do it more mindfully.
13:01That said, there will be times when a
13:03software will ask you to opt out of
13:06something instead of opting into
13:08something.
13:09The reason to do it is because most
13:12people have a bias against something
13:16until data tells them otherwise. And if
13:18you think that something is bad, you're
13:20not going to create the room to test
13:23that. So, even though I might, from a
13:25customer advocacy standpoint, want to
13:27champion all the voices screaming for
13:30opt-in, opt-in, opt-in. There is a valid
13:33business case for the customer to
13:36actually like help the customer, let
13:39them see data
13:41where their biases don't get in the way.
13:44>> Sure.
13:44>> So, I I I think that there's a lot of
13:46value in
13:48bringing that voice of the customer, but
13:50there's also a lot of value in
13:52hearing all of the business cases of why
13:56something might still move forward,
13:58and then being able to translate that to
14:01the humans in a way that that's useful.
14:03So, for example, one of my favorite
14:05things
14:07that that we that we do
14:10search partner publishers on Microsoft
14:13get a really bad rap for whatever
14:15reason. And we found that
14:18year-over-year,
14:20they actually have a 45% improvement in
14:23conversion rates and a 20% reduction in
14:26low-quality impressions since getting
14:29Microsoft Clarity installed on their
14:31sites for monetization. So, like
14:34the publishers themselves, not
14:36advertisers not doing anything, the
14:38publishers themselves results in better
14:40conversion rates.
14:42Most people assume that search partners
14:45are bad just because they've always been
14:46bad.
14:47And if you
14:49opt out as opposed to opt in, you at
14:52least have a chance to see the data for
14:53yourself. If you have to opt in that
14:56then requires you selling and getting
14:58sign-off and getting budget. So, there's
15:01there's a a case for both.
15:03>> Yeah, there is.
15:04>> And this, by the way, is what a
15:06conversation would look like talking
15:07with product.
15:08>> Yeah, yeah.
15:10I mean, shout out you to a lot of things
15:12there. I mean, Microsoft Clarity, great
15:14product, free. That's always helpful.
15:18And just Microsoft in in particular for
15:20valuing
15:22an individual like you, Nava, that is
15:24it's so essential
15:26to have you on staff to to bridge that
15:28gap.
15:29A big piece there. And then I love what
15:31you you said around
15:33AI. A lot of a lot of amazing benefits,
15:35but clear drawbacks and highlighting
15:39your own
15:41inabilities or certain things and maybe
15:44you know, in certain cases capitalizing
15:45on on some bad habits,
15:48right? And I I I can 100% 100% attest to
15:53that of like, oh gosh, like do I need to
15:56be putting this in to AI and when I when
15:59I could easily just respond, you know,
16:02directly and certain things like that
16:03are always interesting.
16:05All right, let's talk more about paid
16:07media and obviously around AI
16:09specifically. Automation in paid media
16:11specifically, you know, um
16:15it brings up the the point or around the
16:17the goal of efficiency, right? It's like
16:19give up control, gain efficiency, which
16:21I think is always interesting with with
16:23AI across the board. It's not always
16:25about efficiency or shouldn't be
16:28necessarily. It should be about other
16:31components around strategic
16:33collaboration, others. But that's been
16:36been the focus at least for as I I've
16:38known it for years.
16:40What's the trade-off generally? Is the
16:41trade-off generally worth it?
16:44Let's talk about we can talk about PMAX
16:45to a certain extent and where
16:48um
16:48are you watching advertisers get hurt by
16:50trusting AI with decisions that you
16:52don't think it's equipped to make?
16:54I'm curious.
16:55>> So,
16:56I'm going to push back on the
17:00the the main value add for AI is
17:03efficiency. I would argue at least in
17:06paid media that the main value that you
17:08get is actually performance.
17:10>> Mhm.
17:10>> Um
17:11there might be drawbacks of brand
17:13compliance, which is why most, if not
17:16all platforms, have some degree of
17:19guardrails in place whether those are
17:22brand kits whether that's message
17:25constraints or term exclusions negatives
17:28things like that but I I think that the
17:30the main thing that people are are
17:32debating is not the efficiency like
17:35candidly
17:36a human engaging with AI versus a human
17:40taking the time to sit and think and do
17:42for themselves
17:43the time there is negligible when it
17:46comes to pay to like creative
17:48>> Mhm.
17:49>> where the gains definitely are is more
17:51in like manual bidding is just not an
17:53efficient use of time
17:55um that for sure um and then also
17:57there's just no way that you could
17:58contextually have all of the information
18:00at your fingertips the way that a
18:02bidding algorithm could
18:04where I think that people might struggle
18:09um is if they have robot.txt
18:14on their landing pages as a no index
18:17>> Mhm.
18:18>> that means you're telling the AI like
18:21don't come in don't index don't crawl
18:22this
18:23if you're leveraging AI campaign types
18:26like PMax and AI Max
18:28they need to be able to index your page
18:30to understand the site to have useful
18:33matching to be able to
18:36have good creative so I actually would
18:39argue that it's not that AI
18:42has like things that you shouldn't use
18:44AI for I mean obviously like abide by
18:47security protocols and like
18:49>> don't don't do deep fakes deep fakes are
18:51are are not a good thing to do
18:53um
18:54but the biggest thing is just having
18:56empathy for how AI works and if you have
18:59robot.txt as a no index
19:02on the your landing page you're
19:04effectively saying I want this Ferrari
19:08to drive through the mud during a
19:10hurricane
19:12like that's just not a good use of that
19:13Ferrari.
19:15A four-wheeler is
19:17going to do great. But a four-wheeler is
19:19not going to have the same like speed
19:22and direct conversion that the Ferrari
19:24would have. So you just want to be
19:26mindful about that. Um the other thing
19:27that I'll throw out there and then I'm
19:29actually really curious your perspective
19:31on this question.
19:33Um
19:34I don't know if enough people have
19:36actually played
19:38with the various AI tools. So it's worth
19:42taking the same prompt, the same
19:43conversation that you want to have with
19:46ChatGPT and plug that into Copilot, plug
19:49it into Gemini, plug it into Perplexity,
19:51plug it into Claude
19:53and see how they each come back and then
19:55ask them how did how did they arrive at
19:58those answers? Why do they think that
19:59that's correct? Because the moment you
20:03give up asking why did it suggest
20:05something or why did it say something,
20:07that's the moment that you you've really
20:09lost the plot because AI is not
20:12sentient. AI should be in service of
20:14humanity. And the moment you cede your
20:16critical thinking, your creative
20:18thinking, like that's there's something
20:20lost there.
20:21>> Mhm. Yeah.
20:23I love just the
20:25diversification with all across LLMs,
20:27right? I think people in particular it
20:30it it's overwhelming sometimes, right?
20:32To to think about having all of those up
20:35and just try to ping them and go through
20:37that, but at the same time it it's
20:39broadens the perspective and gives you
20:41an understanding of
20:43of how they're potentially working
20:45coming to up with a
20:47with the conclusion, so yeah, I think
20:49that's a great use.
20:51It is funny
20:53related unrelated I was at a conference
20:55a long time ago, not a long time ago,
20:57like earlier this year or late last
20:59year, I can't remember, but it everyone
21:01had their laptops up and the the
21:03the presenter, I forget what if if Will
21:05Reynolds or who it was, um,
21:07but it's like, here's the prompt, right?
21:10And
21:11we're going to see
21:13you're all have chat GPT app, for
21:15example.
21:16New chat, here's the prompt, everyone
21:17use it. And I think it was like 15% or
21:21less had the exact same results, right?
21:25So, every single result was different.
21:27Which is which is always interesting
21:28based on
21:30>> Personalization is real.
21:31>> Um, I know.
21:33Yeah.
21:33>> The the the the thing that I don't know
21:36if enough people really process is that
21:41every time you engage with the system
21:43and you don't
21:45in
21:46uh click the link, you don't uh
21:49pass through to the brand, you're giving
21:51signal that that brand is not as
21:53interesting to you.
21:55Um, and vice versa, like if you engage
21:57with the brand, suddenly that's
22:00a higher weight, that's a higher in
22:02significance. Um, so I think that
22:04there's there's a lot more just tech
22:06literacy that's needed. Um,
22:10yeah. So, just like I was saying that
22:11all
22:13this business mechanics literacy is
22:15needed. I think we just need more tech
22:16literacy.
22:17>> I agree. Let's talk about uh
22:20how
22:22AI and um is influencing and and
22:25obviously impacting the creative
22:27industry in particular around like
22:29performance creative, if you will. Um,
22:32you pushed the module content framework
22:34as a way to build AI-ready creative.
22:37Um, I'm curious like what your thoughts
22:39are around
22:40um
22:41what does a marketer who has spent years
22:43crafting their persona-specific
22:46messaging actually lose when they shift
22:48to these modular assets? I'm curious
22:50that, and is there a real cost there or
22:52resistance?
22:53>> Why would they lose something? Like why
22:56why
22:57Like I'm actually really confused where
22:58you would
22:59lose anything in that. Um,
23:03can can you maybe give an example of how
23:06you think about persona and how you
23:08think about model cuz for me I can't I
23:10don't see any
23:11>> I think it's
23:12>> anything off.
23:13>> Sure. Yeah, and I think um so my
23:16perspective is
23:17you know, dealing with and this is not
23:19just creative, but individuals that are
23:22uh been in industry for a long time.
23:24Let's say 10 plus years, right? And have
23:27uh ways of doing things and are
23:30admittedly skeptical and um
23:35kind of uh have a maybe a negative
23:38sentiment to a certain extent in terms
23:39of AI usage. And and maybe an ethical
23:42stance around it as well.
23:44Um
23:45in terms of and we'll go back to
23:47creative around say I need someone to be
23:49pushing pixels. I need someone a human
23:51element to create that level of nuance
23:53and things like that. So, I'm curious I
23:55guess to simplify this a little bit more
23:57in terms of you know, individuals that
23:59perhaps are just
24:01wanting that complete authenticity with
24:03human like a human has come up with this
24:06versus um
24:08and
24:09yeah, I'd love I'd love to hear it's not
24:10like I'm I'm on one side or the other to
24:12be honest, but is around um their use
24:15case now and maybe their ability to
24:19adopt a new process and to take a hold
24:22of it and realize that it it is 100%
24:25improving their approach versus
24:27hindering it potentially. I'm curious
24:29your thoughts you have.
24:29>> I I I think the question that's in here
24:32is
24:33what
24:34is my stance on AI skeptics versus
24:38hearing is the same or close like is
24:39that effectively the question?
24:41>> Yeah, exactly roundabout. Mhm.
24:43>> Okay. Um
24:45So, the the first thing to remember is
24:47that what a lot of us are calling AI has
24:50been around for a really long time and
24:55there there's actually a more simple
24:57devil's bargain that most people have
24:59already completed, which is if you use
25:02one-click login, one-click shop
25:06checkout, like one if you do shared
25:08addresses, you've already said yes to a
25:11lot of like that next stage agentic
25:14world where things are taking place um
25:18where you've consented to it acting on
25:20your behalf. So like put that to the
25:21side.
25:23If we're thinking about
25:25um
25:26a creative in an agency
25:28versus
25:30an in-house person using the PMAX
25:34campaign creator and plugging the URL
25:36and having that content automatically
25:38get formatted on their behalf and like
25:41what's better?
25:43I would much rather that creative who's
25:45really really good, i.e. someone like my
25:47husband who does digital art for a
25:49living,
25:50>> Got you.
25:51>> um
25:52focus on those net new creatives and
25:55think about what sort of messaging is
25:58really going to land, what sort of
26:01um creative will actually help as
26:03opposed to reformatting the same
26:06creative again and again and again for
26:07all sorts of different placements.
26:09>> Sure.
26:09>> I don't think that's a terribly good use
26:11of someone who's expensive's time.
26:15um If the creative is being pulled from
26:18existing assets that that creative has
26:21already done, that's increasingly ROI on
26:24that person's work. So again, if it's
26:27your own landing page that you're
26:28pulling from, it's there.
26:30>> Mhm.
26:31>> What I suspect you were getting at is
26:33going into pick your
26:36agent of choice, assistant of choice,
26:38and take the Miyazaki meme craze where
26:43everyone was plugging their photo in and
26:45saying turn it into a Miyazaki uh anime.
26:48>> Sure.
26:49>> And like how that is unethical. I would
26:53argue 100% yes, like that is really
26:56difficult.
26:57One of the reasons I said yes to
26:59Microsoft is
27:01the choices that they are actively
27:02making to make sure that publishers get
27:04paid for their work. So one of the
27:06things that we're actually doing is we
27:08have the publisher content marketplace
27:10where publishers can apply
27:13to get fair licensing deals
27:15so so that their content when used to
27:17help train AI, they get a
27:20a a licensing fee every time.
27:22>> Nice.
27:22>> So I think that I think that there's a
27:25world where
27:27we can accept the new way that people
27:29are engaging with content, we can accept
27:31that mechanic
27:33and we can still pay people. What I
27:35don't think is
27:36fair is to have a really wonderful
27:40author have their entire book
27:42>> Yeah.
27:43>> thrown into an LLM and then it's it's
27:45gone. Like there's actually something
27:46really interesting with em dashes. The
27:48reason em dashes are all over AI is
27:50because the training writing
27:54used a lot of em dashes. And so that's
27:57that's now AI content.
27:59>> Sure.
28:00>> But I I do think that there's a
28:01difference between
28:03that and
28:06tooling to make your life easier.
28:08Um and I'll even use myself as an
28:10example. Uh what I tend to do with the
28:12amount of writing that I do is I will
28:15speak into transcription
28:17and plug that transcription of all of my
28:20content, all of my ideas into a novel
28:24bot
28:25who has been trained on my 17 going on
28:2718 at this point years of experience
28:30in writing and say like
28:32maintaining my voice, maintaining my
28:34tone, maintaining the perspectives that
28:35I tend to have, take this transcript and
28:38turn it into a blog post. I then review
28:40that output and make sure that it's
28:41actually correct and useful and whatever
28:43and then
28:45there's my blog post.
28:46>> Mhm.
28:47>> My content.
28:48My ideas.
28:50I'm just asking for help formatting
28:52doing a task that I personally find
28:54really annoying.
28:54>> Yeah. The remedial, mundane, recurring,
28:58time-consuming task. Great. Best usage.
29:01Yeah. I love that.
29:03What a
29:04I can I can relate to just in terms of
29:06the um
29:07I feel like I'm writing less and less.
29:09So, I I guess that's a good transition
29:11to our next question here is
29:12um I I'm writing I'm speaking as well
29:16just directly into utilizing a tool
29:18called Super Whisper, which is directly
29:20connected and trained, and then have
29:22individual projects. Same thing you're
29:24you're tending to doing. Um which is
29:26incredibly helpful, right? To get
29:28gaining ideas, especially the
29:31um just the the context that you can
29:33have and how you write differently than
29:35you actually talk. Um which is always
29:37fascinating. Talk to me
29:40you mentioned your years of experience,
29:42and I think that's a good subject to get
29:44into because
29:45where do you how do you feel like newer
29:48marketers coming up maybe say a couple
29:50years of experience that are getting
29:53immersed with generative AI, do you feel
29:56it breeds a level of maybe
29:58overconfidence
30:00and kind of weaker marketing
30:01fundamentals?
30:03Thinking about for example like oh I had
30:06a couple of prompts you have trained up
30:08things you're in there, but and
30:10everything's you know without
30:11personalization or without training up
30:12your dedicated LLM for example, there's
30:15a lot of like great work Nava. This is
30:17excellent, you know? And it's that you
30:19know we know how LLMs are trained and
30:23treating that output as gospel versus
30:25when you and I are able to critique
30:27something we've been doing it for a
30:29while, we can kind of call BS. Uh what
30:32are your thoughts on that? That's just
30:34not applicable to marketing. That's
30:35pretty much applicable to anything.
30:36>> Yeah. Yeah. So, like
30:38this is we're we're now just talking
30:39about the human existence at this point.
30:40>> We are. Yeah, we're going deep. Going
30:42deep.
30:43>> Yeah, go go deep.
30:44Um
30:46There is an accountability
30:49that all humans have for their creative
30:53and critical thinking skills.
30:55Um there is a certain point where
30:59um
31:00a child is not responsible for like
31:04their upbringing. Like it's it's what's
31:07around them, but like at a certain point
31:09you're responsible for for how how you
31:11interact.
31:12>> Of course.
31:13>> And I know we we talked about it in in
31:15in the pre-show. Like let's not go back
31:16to high school and and and talk in terms
31:18of pedigree.
31:20Um but I actually think this is a useful
31:22um instance of like thinking about
31:23middle school dynamics and high school
31:25dynamics. There's always going to be the
31:28kids who are the Hermione complex, like
31:33the the top of the class. Like they they
31:35need to do their work a week in advance
31:37so that they can get review and like do
31:39do the best. There's going to be the
31:40people who like truly don't care.
31:42They're really smart. Like they phone it
31:44in. Like they do great.
31:46There's going to be the people who cheat
31:47off of both of those cohorts. There's
31:50going to be people who just are
31:51struggling cuz they can't process the
31:53information the way it's being put
31:55forward.
31:57I apply this mindset to like the current
32:02existence with with marketing our newer
32:04marketers because
32:08we have a knowledge of marketing because
32:11we have to do it manually first. So we
32:13know the nuts and bolts.
32:16I'm not confident that people will need
32:19to know about search campaigns as
32:22opposed to
32:25I want to reach this customer
32:27and understand the business value of
32:30that customer. So I think it's far more
32:32important that people are thinking about
32:34learning styles and tone, how they're
32:36communicating,
32:38why someone has a need or desire. So,
32:41like the conversions of brand and
32:42performance I think is a far more
32:43important thing for newer marketers to
32:46know. The other thing I'll throw out
32:47there
32:48is that when I would train new people,
32:50I'd make them play board games with me.
32:52Um because board games are really good
32:54at doing two things. The first is work
32:57uh worker resource management. So, like
32:59think having the strategy piece, but
33:01also learning a new board game
33:04uh you learn a new uh
33:06set of rules of engagement every time
33:08and then make them yours.
33:09>> Mhm.
33:09>> And that skill of being able to learn
33:12how something works quickly and then
33:15pick up a strategy where there's no
33:17money involved is a super useful
33:20training ground to get the brain used to
33:22doing that work.
33:23>> Mhm.
33:23>> So, what I would actually do is I'd take
33:25on apprentices
33:26um from the MMO I used to play um and
33:29like do mentorship there for for paid
33:31media. And then of course when new
33:33people would would join, I'd also um
33:35like board games with them to get them
33:37used to it. So, I if new marketers like
33:39yes, obviously
33:41read, do all the things, play with the
33:43tools, but like if you can get used to
33:46play treating it as playing a game,
33:48you'll have more confidence testing than
33:51if it's you're getting bogged down with
33:53oh my god, that was a lot of money I
33:54just
33:55>> Yeah.
33:55>> Yeah.
33:56>> Yeah.
33:57>> Obviously respect the money.
33:58>> Well, yeah, maybe, you know.
34:01I love the just the
34:04probably the the ability just to derive
34:06and understand emotional intelligence
34:08via you know, people's
34:11approach to learning how to play a board
34:14game and adapting to certain things and
34:16then yeah, you're you're seeing the
34:17strategies come to light
34:19uh which is cool. That's a really cool
34:20concept.
34:22Let's talk KPIs quickly.
34:24>> Yeah.
34:25>> Uh
34:26you know, obviously with SEO
34:30uh
34:31the core KPIs are aren't particularly
34:34necessarily changing, but they think
34:36they're
34:37in terms of the priority, I'd say
34:39they're changing, right? The vanity
34:40metrics of traffic and impressions and
34:43clicks are always incredibly attractive
34:46and I think we're all hardwired to see
34:47them go up into the right, right?
34:50But
34:51in actuality, engagement and conversions
34:54are really the core focus and and the
34:56fixation. Talk to me about paid media
35:00specifically and
35:01you know, traditional cost per lead,
35:04return on ad spend, those have been
35:05really kind of the main metrics, if you
35:07will.
35:09Would you say that those are still, you
35:13know, are those misleading, are those
35:15limiting individuals, or should they
35:16evolve more into engagement-related
35:18metrics and other types of of details or
35:21or are those still remain
35:23>> Revenue is revenue. Like like we're
35:26we're we we care about revenue going up
35:31into the right. Like that that's that's
35:32that's that's what we that's what we
35:34want.
35:34>> Yes, please.
35:36>> The thing is with the
35:39the AI era came about at the same time
35:41as the privacy-first era, which is a
35:43really interesting thing because AI
35:45needs so much data
35:48and privacy and consent can can really
35:51get in the way. So, one of the things I
35:53I would really encourage everyone to
35:54think about is not just
35:56how can I manage campaigns and think
35:58about the humans and what they want, but
35:59also how can I get them to say yes
36:02to me passing that information through
36:04and like Microsoft has tools like
36:05advanced consent mode and like there's
36:08also amazing um
36:11consent management platforms
36:13uh
36:14I'll shout out Usercentrics.
36:17Also so they they have their cookie bot,
36:19there's also Cookie Yes. Um, but lots of
36:22great tools there. But the crux of it is
36:26I actually don't think any hard metric
36:30is going to be nearly as useful as
36:33owning your source of truth.
36:35>> Mhm.
36:35>> So, different platforms are going to
36:37report different things.
36:39Um
36:40just the nature of being a platform.
36:42>> Of course.
36:42>> What's really critical is that your own
36:45internal data is really clean.
36:47And that you have an easy way of passing
36:49that information through. And then in
36:50the AI era, it's even more important
36:53that your first-party data, if you're an
36:56e-commerce
36:57customer,
36:59uh that your product catalog, your feed,
37:01your hygiene is really, really
37:02immaculate.
37:03>> Mhm.
37:03>> Because if that's not being passed
37:05through
37:06cleanly, you're going to be out of date
37:08or you'll be outright invisible.
37:11And the ability for people to engage and
37:13to buy from you is going to be really
37:15negatively impacted. So, I would
37:17encourage people to think less about
37:20here's a hard metric
37:23that I'm going to snap to and more
37:26towards
37:27how clean is my data really? How
37:30accurate is my data really? And if the
37:33answer is I don't know,
37:35it doesn't really matter what platforms
37:37report as conversions, it doesn't really
37:40matter what traffic says if if you're
37:44not confident in your revenue numbers
37:46and your lead quality. Like that's
37:49that's the thing to solve.
37:50>> Yeah.
37:52It reminds me of your early days of
37:54taking over campaigns for paid search in
37:57particular, let's say, and
38:00taking the client's configuration
38:05as like, "Oh, this is already
38:06configured. Should be good." right? And
38:09in actuality, really needing to
38:12to question it and to go in and test it
38:15yourself
38:16to demonstrate why
38:19things are happening the way they way
38:21are and just make sure there's actually
38:23some some testing going through and
38:25making sure things are firing correctly
38:27on a conversion page or whatever that
38:29may be.
38:30Uh, really an essential piece.
38:33It's like we we lost you a little bit, a
38:35little blurry.
38:37>> I'm trying to fix it.
38:38>> Good. You're good.
38:39>> Looks good. I'm good now.
38:40>> Yeah. So, that's what reminds me of and
38:42then I think also too is just the
38:43ability to
38:45um, well, I guess to elaborate on that a
38:47little bit more is to not
38:50be lead with respect and say I
38:52appreciate, you know, what you guys have
38:53configured, but if we're going to do our
38:55own due diligence, we need to test this
38:57ourselves and make sure that um, some
39:00level of attribution is established
39:02correctly.
39:04Go figure, right?
39:05Um,
39:07let's talk about uh,
39:10re- the recent um, Google conference
39:12that came
39:13that that came through. What was that?
39:15Last week, I believe.
39:17>> I think the Microsoft girl that talked
39:18about GML.
39:19>> I know. I know. I know. Yeah. Yeah.
39:20Yeah.
39:21>> What did she say?
39:22>> Totally.
39:23We'll talk about that. Well, let's
39:25emphasize that too.
39:27Um,
39:28I I guess what I'm getting at regardless
39:30of the search engine you're on is just
39:32the
39:33the likely inevitable um, landscape of
39:38the blue links going away and more um,
39:42kind of agent-to-agent communication, if
39:44you will. I'm curious your thoughts
39:46around um,
39:48AI,
39:49you know, overviews obviously within
39:50Google and how that compresses the path
39:53to purchase in terms of um,
39:56the top of funnel paid media strategies
39:58for more informational related content.
40:00Um, what do you think? What do you What
40:02are your thoughts in terms of demand
40:03gen? Do you think that is a category
40:06that's shrinking, is shifting,
40:07transforming into something else
40:09entirely? I'm curious.
40:11>> So, I I already uh, mentioned the
40:13conversions of brand and performance and
40:15I I I definitely think that there that
40:17it's happening. People need to If you're
40:19a performance marketer who's obsessed
40:20with conversions, I'm sorry, you're
40:21going to have to start learning brand
40:23and
40:23>> Yes. Yeah.
40:24>> how how how that functions and brand
40:27you need to start having some grace for
40:29the performance folks who are going to
40:30come in and and like have a sense of
40:32urgency on on the conversion.
40:34Um but the thing that I I I think is
40:36really worth noting here is that
40:39the way that
40:41um
40:42Google is positioning
40:44uh this feature
40:46uh which is like it's an it's an
40:49inevitable march.
40:51Um
40:51is actually a big reason why I said yes
40:53to Microsoft because Microsoft maintains
40:56the choose-your-own-adventure path. So
40:58while the the quality and importance of
41:02AI
41:03um is definitely the same across the
41:05board. I'll actually throw it out there.
41:07I don't think
41:09it's an inevitable erasure of
41:13links.
41:14Um because there's going to always be
41:16some humans who want to engage with a
41:18website and who don't want to
41:21say yes to doing business with an agent.
41:24Um I also think that there's a certain
41:26amount of
41:29I don't know what this
41:31um
41:34The tools that we saw
41:36are the dream state.
41:38If the like if everything works
41:40perfectly.
41:41Um
41:43what they'll actually be once we get
41:46real products out into the world and
41:48feedback out into the uh
41:51feedback amongst ourselves into product
41:54teams and whatnot.
41:55The actual products might look very very
41:57different. Um
41:59One thing that that's kind of
42:00interesting
42:02is I I think I mentioned it that ads
42:03have served in Copilot um since 2024.
42:07And what's real what's
42:09useful about that is that we have data
42:12to show
42:14that yes, those ads perform really,
42:15really well, but
42:17they tip they don't serve on every AI
42:20surface. Like there's a balance that
42:22comes with AI that when the ad is so
42:25baked into every part of the
42:27conversation, you lose trust in the AI
42:31being a reasonable arbiter of
42:33information.
42:35So, I'll be really interested to see how
42:36Google navigates that. Like it's not not
42:39for me to comment on like Google's
42:41choices. Of course. Um but like as a
42:43practitioner and then like not with the
42:45human,
42:46I don't know how
42:49results can be trusted if you pay to get
42:54there. It's the same thing with
42:55citations. Like
42:58if it's pay to play for citations,
43:02then like we don't trust the system. So,
43:04like
43:05I think it's really useful that both
43:08Google and Microsoft are bringing
43:10visibility. Like I will shamelessly plug
43:12that we led the way there and Clarity
43:14has a new citation report and you can
43:16see within breadth there and like Bing
43:19indexed now will help you like
43:21get the the the Bing grounding API to
43:24like check your site and it's all really
43:26good stuff.
43:27Um
43:28but like that citation clarity is really
43:32important. So, because that helps you
43:34understand what are the actual queries
43:36that the AI is doing in the background.
43:39Mhm.
43:40Because that if
43:42if humans are consenting for agents to
43:45act on their behalf and speaking to
43:47other agents,
43:48it's less important to understand what
43:50the human wants. It's more important to
43:51understand how does the AI understand
43:54that information?
43:55So, that you can then inspire the human
43:58to
43:59make whatever query they're going to
44:01make, have whatever conversation they're
44:02going to have, but then also format your
44:04data in a the that AI systems can
44:06understand. Um, which is why that
44:08robot.txt point is so important cuz if
44:11you don't allow AI systems to engage,
44:15I'm so really sorry, but like you're
44:17going to either be invisible or
44:19misrepresented.
44:21>> Mhm.
44:22Which is interesting, too, cuz for
44:23years, right, we'd want to no index
44:25those paid landing pages.
44:27And now it's yeah, it's opening them up.
44:30I love that.
44:30>> Or or at least have a convergence
44:31between PPC and SEO. Like it's far less
44:35important to have those
44:37siloed
44:39AB tested to death landing pages. It's
44:42much more important that the human
44:44experience is correct across both.
44:46>> Mhm.
44:47Yeah, excellent stuff.
44:49Now that I could probably talk to you
44:51for the next three two or three hours,
44:53I'm going to be respectful of your time.
44:55Let's put you on the spot here. Uh, if
44:56you could give, you know, the the closer
44:58question here. If you could give every
45:00B2B performance marketer one thing to
45:02change in their paid media approach in
45:03the next 90 days, what would it be? All
45:06right,
45:07here we go. Let's go, folks.
45:09>> So, it's just I only get one thing?
45:11>> One thing, that's it.
45:14>> Uh
45:14>> No, you can open it up.
45:16>> All right, so my my my one thing that is
45:19platform agnostic is leverage conversion
45:22values for journey aware sequential
45:26conversions because I don't think enough
45:28B2B marketers actually
45:30use conversion values effectively, and
45:32conversion values are the best way to
45:34communicate with platforms. I will
45:36shamelessly plug that LinkedIn profiles
45:37are getting within Microsoft and
45:38LinkedIn in general is wonderful for
45:40B2B, and like you should check it out,
45:42and it's wonderful. Um, but for the
45:44everybody,
45:45platform agnostic, conversion values are
45:48a godsend, and the uh for the SEOs in
45:51the room,
45:52it is worth
45:54asking your PPC friends to connect
45:57search console into Google Ads cuz
46:00there's actually a really useful organic
46:01report in there. At least there was last
46:03time I checked.
46:04>> Mhm.
46:05>> Like not be there anymore, but like last
46:07I checked. Um and it will actually show
46:09you the overlap. So, if your conversion
46:11values and you're you're seeing the
46:13conversion values for
46:15your paid campaigns, you can begin to
46:17extrapolate some of that those values
46:20for your organic terms.
46:22Um I would also encourage everyone to
46:25plug their domains into a PMAX campaign
46:28creator.
46:29>> Mhm.
46:29>> So, that you can see how well do AI
46:31systems understand your pages because to
46:34my earlier point about that robot.txt,
46:36if you hate
46:38how AI is understanding your your page,
46:43um that's that's a bigger problem than
46:46just like running campaigns and getting
46:48leads there. Like that means that you
46:50might be coming up for the wrong sort of
46:51queries. Your creative might not be easy
46:54to understand for your humans.
46:56>> Mhm.
46:57>> This is now devolving into like five
46:58things. So,
46:59>> All right. We got we got a lot out of
47:01there. I was I love it. Conversion
47:03values resonates really well. I'm
47:04actually speaking about that in in uh
47:07Philadelphia or in in September. That's
47:09such such a great It's amazing, right?
47:12The the weighted value of a button click
47:16or versus an actual demo form, for
47:18example, had the same value and it's
47:20like, "Okay, the algorithms don't
47:22understand the difference." So, what a
47:24what a great uh shoutout. Nava,
47:26appreciate your time. Where can people
47:28engage with you? Um microsoft.com. You
47:32know, talk to me back.
47:33>> LinkedIn.
47:34>> Uh so, um I'm I'm super active on
47:36LinkedIn. So, come come say hi to me on
47:39on LinkedIn. Uh I am I do a column for
47:44Search Engine Journal and Search Engine
47:45Land. So, you can check check that out
47:47there. Um Microsoft Ads, uh
47:50so, ads.microsoft
47:52uh for for Microsoft Ads. There's also
47:54the Microsoft AI. Um
47:57I technically have listening profiles on
48:00Reddit and X, but that's work related. I
48:04don't really communicate as much on
48:05there. LinkedIn is is the best place to
48:06find me.
48:07>> Amazing. Nava, this it's been absolute
48:09pleasure. Again, appreciate your time.
48:11Good luck on the conference series. I'm
48:12excited to to follow along and and
48:14continue
48:15>> I got you.
48:15>> your perspective. Awesome. Thanks again.
48:18>> My pleasure.
48:19>> Bye.
48:24>> Thanks for listening to Built to
48:25Convert. If you're serious about growth,
48:28don't just listen, subscribe, leave a
48:30review, and follow us for new episodes
48:33that drop straight into your feed. Until
48:35next time, keep building.

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