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Build Or Bless? The Debate Over Church Structure | Jonathan Vazquez, Julien Ryder & Jacob Phillips — Transcript

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0:00Hey, Kingdom Speakers. It is Friday and
0:03we are back with another incredible
0:06episode of Kingdom Speak and we're not
0:08alone this week. Hang around and you'll
0:11find out where we're at.
0:26We are coming to you live and I've got
0:31to we we we're going to give demonstrate
0:33this
0:34from Souls Harbor at Apostolic Awakening
0:38Conference. Make some noise.
0:42>> [cheering]
0:45>> THAT'S GOOD.
0:46>> OH, YEAH.
0:47>> [cheering]
0:48[applause]
0:48>> Someday we're going to be good enough.
0:50Someday.
0:51>> Someday.
0:52>> We're going to be good enough that we'll
0:53have a camera we can show that they're
0:54actually here. [laughter]
0:56And that that was not AI.
0:59>> People wonder why it sounds the same
1:00every time you do that.
1:01>> It does. It's a great clip. You can
1:03download it. And [laughter] you just
1:05patch it in. It works great on
1:06preaching. Everything.
1:11I never lack for response now, ever.
1:13It's amazing. It's amazing. So, we are
1:16um
1:18in Calhoun. Is that the actual
1:21>> proper name of where we're at?
1:23>> Calhoun, Louisiana with Pastor Ryder
1:26hosting the Apostolic Awakening
1:29conference here at Souls Harbor.
1:31Absolutely. Oh, lord. Oh.
1:34>> [applause and cheering]
1:34>> No kidding.
1:37Well, we just did it, didn't we?
1:39>> Ram [clears throat] in the thicket.
1:40>> Yeah. And we are joined by my dear
1:44friend. [clears throat]
1:45Man, I'm just getting all choked up.
1:47>> [laughter]
1:47>> I have that effect on you.
1:48>> that effect on people, do you?
1:50>> Oh. Wow.
1:51>> Yeah.
1:51>> Yeah.
1:52>> Oh, my goodness.
1:54>> Come on.
1:55>> Pastor Vasquez,
1:57um we met, I think, the first time
1:59>> Baby blue
2:00>> blue around the world to meet each
2:01other.
2:01>> Yes, Beirut twice.
2:03>> Yeah.
2:04So,
2:06I don't want to go there right now.
2:08I'm I'm okay with meeting you here, but
2:10uh
2:11love and appreciate you and this is
2:13going to be a great one. Also,
2:14Evangelist Jacob Phillips is not
2:17Pastor Jacob Phillips, is it?
2:19>> Yeah?
2:19>> Not yet.
2:20>> Okay.
2:21Maybe we can make that arrangement.
2:22>> Well.
2:23>> Yeah. [snorts]
2:23>> We'll see.
2:25>> But uh yeah, it's just us. This doesn't
2:28go far.
2:28>> Yep.
2:29>> We have been blessed by Brother Phillips
2:31on the podcast before and we're going to
2:33have a great time tonight. So, do you
2:36have a review that you're going to
2:38read with uh with and for us? Oh, it's
2:41going to be
2:42a live review. Let's bring it, man.
2:46>> Uh podcast uh Kingdom Speak podcast has
2:49been something me and my boys and family
2:51have listened to now for a number of
2:53years. Uh five stars.
2:55>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
2:57>> And uh very impactful.
2:58>> [clears throat]
2:58>> I really appreciate a
3:00voice like that.
3:01>> Awesome.
3:02>> space.
3:03>> Awesome. Man, shout your name out.
3:05>> Jeremy Marshall, Kosciusko, Mississippi.
3:07>> Awesome, man. Let's hear it. Can we get
3:10an amen?
3:16Can we get an amen? You got to give him
3:17an amen. Did you do it? Okay.
3:20>> [snorts]
3:20>> So, um
3:22this is going to be a great week and I
3:24want to thank you for the opportunity.
3:26>> Thank you for being here.
3:26>> here. This is um
3:29We've been looking forward to this.
3:30We've been talking about it for a while.
3:32>> It's been a minute. Yes, sir.
3:33>> And uh
3:35I we we enjoyed the keynote a few
3:38moments ago
3:39and I'm just looking forward to what the
3:40rest of this week is going to
3:43hold, but I want to kick off our
3:46conversation [snorts]
3:47uh tonight and
3:50I wanted to talk about and and
3:53really just kind of pull each of us in.
3:56First and foremost on what you think the
3:59greatest problem is with evangelists
4:01today.
4:02Um
4:04I hate evangelists.
4:06>> [laughter]
4:09>> Is this a series?
4:10>> OKAY.
4:11>> OH. OH, [laughter]
4:13I LIKE IT.
4:15Is this a series?
4:17>> Okay, so I have asked
4:19I have asked
4:21Pastor Cody Marks and Al
4:24to come on this podcast
4:25100 times.
4:27And he he he just can't pull it
4:29together. He'll he'll hear me say this.
4:32>> [snorts]
4:32>> So, but you're talking about
4:34evangelists.
4:36He was
4:37He's been, I think, 7 or 8 weeks,
4:39depending on when this episode is
4:41released, but
4:43he said that uh he was together with us
4:45for our conference just
4:47last week.
4:48And he said someone already asked him,
4:49"Would you have Cody Marks come preach a
4:52revival for you right now?" And he said,
4:55"No. No, I wouldn't." [laughter]
4:59So,
5:00it's amazing how things shift. We are
5:02not here to talk about evangelists, and
5:03we do love our evangelists a lot.
5:05And we love Brother Phillips.
5:07But this is [clears throat] a segway
5:10into
5:11what I want to talk about. And um I'm
5:14I'm looking forward to your
5:16input on this. So, let let me just take
5:18a couple minutes to set it. And then I
5:20want to hear from you, and we'll just go
5:23with the flow from there. So, there is a
5:26biblical precedent
5:29that whenever
5:32God wants to move into a space, we know
5:34Genesis 1,
5:36that the spirit can move on chaos.
5:39But that is not a sustainable
5:42option.
5:43>> Right.
5:43>> It is to pull
5:45that situation into order. So, the
5:48spirit begins moving, the word begins
5:51going forth, separation begins
5:53happening, order begins emerging because
5:57the ultimate outcome
5:59of sustaining the supernatural
6:02is it takes order, it takes structure,
6:05strategy.
6:07Whatever you want to use for that
6:08terminology.
6:10We see this
6:12in the
6:13formation of Adam.
6:16So, Adam is formed.
6:19He's reflecting the image of God.
6:22>> [clears throat]
6:23>> But he's lifeless.
6:25He's he's He is a structure.
6:30But there's no mobility.
6:33There is
6:34It takes
6:36the spirit moving into that
6:39to make it a moving force.
6:41>> [snorts]
6:41>> One of the things when you look at Adam
6:44is even all of us right here, you don't
6:47really recognize the structure. We see
6:50the visible
6:51physical
6:53and we identify each other by
6:55by that appearance.
6:58But without structure, none of us would
7:00be able to maneuver. We could never
7:03accomplish purpose.
7:05We would just be maybe even formed.
7:10But the only way that Adam can get from
7:12point A to point B is he has to have
7:13structure.
7:14He could even have the spirit in him.
7:18But it takes that skeletal framework
7:23coupled with the spirit
7:26to make that man a man that can
7:28accomplish the purpose that he was
7:30created to accomplish. So, there's no
7:33great revelation in that, but that is
7:35the setup
7:36for what I want us to talk about. You
7:38begin to see
7:40as you march through scripture that
7:44bones and and structure they they're
7:47they're a synonymous exchange.
7:49>> Structure matters.
7:51>> Well, there. We could we could talk
7:52about that, couldn't we? Yeah.
7:54>> [snorts]
7:55>> So, but we see it and I think we may
7:56even refer to that in the message where
8:00structure is so important
8:02that Jesus wouldn't let them break his.
8:05>> Mhm.
8:05>> Yeah.
8:07There is
8:09enough of importance on structure
8:11remaining intact
8:14that if you're going to resurrect, you
8:15got to make sure that structure is not
8:17broken.
8:19Okay? So, the question that I would that
8:22I want to throw out here and we've
8:23already
8:24referred to evangelists. We have an
8:26evangelist here. We have pastors here.
8:29We've got a lot of young ministry as my
8:31understanding in the room.
8:34How do we marry this? Cuz as
8:36Pentecostals
8:38we understand the experiential component
8:40>> Mhm.
8:41>> of the spirit.
8:43But a lot of times if we're not careful,
8:46we expect the spirit to do all of the
8:49heavy lifting.
8:50>> Mhm.
8:51>> And we don't focus on the structures
8:54needed
8:55to sustain and support what the spirit
8:57is exposing us to.
8:59And
9:01I think if we're honest as our
9:02ministries develop
9:04as our churches grow, this could get as
9:06practical as we want to get.
9:09We have to be focused not just on
9:12attracting the glory but the formation
9:14of a structure that will help sustain
9:16it. Brother Vasquez, what what what's
9:19your thoughts on that?
9:20>> Well, in in discussing Adam
9:24as the structure
9:26and then and then God breathing life and
9:28he becomes a living soul.
9:30You have to go back and you have to
9:32understand what's the purpose for Adam.
9:36Why does God need an Adam?
9:38>> Sure.
9:39>> He's formed the heavens and the earth.
9:41>> Sure.
9:42>> The earth was without form, void,
9:44darkness on the face of the deep. The
9:45spirit of the Lord moved. The word of
9:47God spoke. Order came.
9:50The Bible says
9:52that he put the seed in the ground.
9:55So, this world that he had that he had
9:57ordered he puts seed in the ground
10:01>> Yep.
10:01>> for the trees, the the grass, the herb
10:05of the field. And the Bible said it was
10:07in the ground and then twice in the same
10:10verse it says before it grew.
10:13So, God puts the seed in the ground,
10:15but it's not growing.
10:17So, why would a God, the greatest mind
10:20there's ever been, put seed in the
10:22ground, but then cause it not to grow?
10:25Well, the Bible said that it didn't grow
10:27because he caused it not to rain.
10:28>> Mhm.
10:29>> So, then you ask the next question.
10:30>> he cause it not to
10:31>> Why would God not let it rain?
10:34>> No man.
10:34>> Well, the Bible says because there was
10:37no man to till the ground. And so, the
10:40purpose of Adam was to reap a harvest.
10:45And so, God had to bring Adam on the
10:48scene because Adam had to fulfill the
10:51purpose of God.
10:53And
10:54and that purpose was to reap the harvest
10:56that God had already put divine
10:58potential in the world, but it had to be
11:00drawn out. And so, Adam has the
11:03structure.
11:05Adam needs the spirit.
11:07Same Hebrew word, ruach, for breath and
11:10spirit, the same word. So, God breathed
11:13spirit into Adam, he comes alive and
11:15gets about his purpose. Well,
11:17the New Testament, there's a second man,
11:20Adam,
11:21which is Jesus Christ.
11:23>> Mhm.
11:23>> And then he turns around and he looks at
11:25us and says, "And now, you are
11:28the body of Christ."
11:29>> Right.
11:30>> And so,
11:31why does God have us?
11:34He has us on a mission.
11:36>> Yes.
11:36>> The mission is to reap the harvest.
11:37>> Yes.
11:38>> To reap the harvest, we've got to have
11:39two things, structure and spirit.
11:42>> Yeah.
11:43>> And so, it's the new the Old Testament
11:45is the type and shadow
11:48of the mission of the church in the New
11:50Testament.
11:51>> It is. And it makes you ask the question
11:53at that moment, what remains yet dormant
11:56beneath the surface that is just waiting
11:59on us
12:00>> been rained on yet.
12:01>> to to till.
12:03Waiting on the man to get it together so
12:06that he can till. Go ahead.
12:08>> So, that had to be probably what Abraham
12:11and Sarah
12:12were focused on and frustrated with.
12:15>> Okay.
12:15>> We spent all this time
12:18and our eyes have been on the promise
12:20that was promised to us.
12:22But in Hebrews and and I think we take
12:24it as okay.
12:26They waited and waited and waited and
12:27finally
12:29God gave Sarah
12:31the son.
12:33The promise. Okay?
12:35>> Not exactly what the writer of Hebrews
12:36explains.
12:38The writer of Hebrews says that through
12:39faith Sarah received strength.
12:43>> Okay.
12:44>> She didn't receive the promise.
12:46>> Yeah.
12:46>> She received strength in her body
12:49>> Yes.
12:49>> that was past age.
12:50>> Yes.
12:51>> That that she for lack of better terms
12:54did not have the structure needed to
12:57bear this child and then maintain this
13:00child to dress and keep.
13:02>> So,
13:03she receives the strength to conceive.
13:08My
13:10my coupling there would be
13:13for our young ministry
13:15um our leaders in the church
13:18who who are waiting and I'm going to use
13:21this phrase for their turn.
13:24>> Sure.
13:24>> Okay?
13:25>> Yep.
13:25>> Um
13:27to
13:28fill their role which is their call,
13:30their purpose.
13:32It's very unlikely that God has, you
13:35know, he's flipping a coin on whether or
13:37not he's actually going to bring the
13:38promise to the harvest to pass.
13:40It's probably more certain that God's
13:44waiting
13:45on us to bring about the facility.
13:48>> Uh
13:49see, that's it.
13:50>> Facility first.
13:51>> That's it.
13:51>> And then promise comes to whatever we
13:53can facilitate.
13:54>> If If I can just interject here. So,
13:56that this and maybe this is where I'm
13:57at. You You've been there as well uh
14:01Pastor Bosco's you with moving into a
14:03new building.
14:06We focused on structure.
14:08That's how you survive. That's how you
14:10get there.
14:12So, it's it's structure, Solomon.
14:16I I I don't know how he done it without
14:18the sound of a hammer. That
14:20That piece
14:22That That piece didn't happen in plaster
14:24rock, but we got the structure together,
14:26but we want the glory to fill it.
14:29Okay? So, it's frame it first,
14:32fill it.
14:34Yeah.
14:35Fill it. Frame it, fill it. So, it's
14:38it's strength to conceive.
14:40You know, there's always been a a
14:41passage of scripture, and I want to come
14:43and get some input from you, Brother
14:46Phillips, here in a moment, but there's
14:47always been a scripture that has
14:50been a personal
14:53haunt to me, and that is where he's
14:56referring
14:57uh you you have conceived, but you don't
15:00have the strength to bring
15:03forth. You don't have what it takes to
15:06deliver it, but this conversation moves
15:09it back up the timeline. You don't need
15:12strength to deliver something if you
15:13didn't have strength to conceive it.
15:16It has to start with the strength to
15:18conceive it.
15:19>> Absolutely.
15:20>> So, fill it
15:22can be the passion,
15:24and we can sometimes skip over the
15:26framing it.
15:28And And And God sitting there saying,
15:31"What What am I supposed to fill?"
15:32>> And And it's it's not it's not a dormant
15:35structure, either. I mean, so, if we're
15:37going to parallel the spiritual biblical
15:40to the physical, bones structure,
15:43temple,
15:44uh bone doesn't support muscle. Muscle
15:46supports bone.
15:48You can see You can see the the the
15:51crosscut view of osteoporosis
15:55in an elder that strength trains and an
15:59elder that doesn't strength chain strain
16:01uh strength chain.
16:02>> Yeah.
16:02>> The The difference is that the muscle
16:05mass, the moving parts, actually
16:09create structure strength.
16:11So,
16:13>> [snorts]
16:13>> Yes. Holding Holding Holding those
16:15connect points.
16:16>> yeah.
16:17>> Let's uh get the degree and then sit on
16:19a pew.
16:20>> Yeah, right.
16:20>> Let's not build the building and then
16:22wonder when God's going to It's movement
16:24>> Right.
16:25>> coupled with the structure.
16:26>> Right.
16:27>> Yeah.
16:27>> So, going back, it's a circular
16:29conversation, of course, and it brings
16:31me into
16:33uh one of my soapboxes, I guess, but
16:35when you start thinking of the second
16:36atom,
16:37um you think in the beginning was the
16:40word,
16:41and the word became flesh.
16:44>> Mhm. Yes.
16:44>> So,
16:45the structure of Adam is his skeletal
16:49system, and the structure of Jesus
16:52is the word. Well, why did God
16:55have them build a house, even the
16:57tabernacle in the wilderness, so that
16:59Moses could go in
17:01and receive a word from God
17:04to come out and tell the people. Sure.
17:06Now, he's had a word from God
17:08before [clears throat] there was a
17:09tabernacle,
17:11but you want something a little more
17:13permanent because
17:14we're just out here following the cloud
17:16and following this. We need somewhere
17:19where there can be a
17:20uh divine exacting place where God can
17:24come and dwell. So,
17:26>> Yes.
17:26>> build me a house.
17:27>> Mhm. Yes.
17:28>> Let my word will come,
17:31which is I had a young man talked to me
17:33tonight and said, uh
17:35you know, what would your advice be for
17:37a young preacher that's just getting
17:39started evangelizing? The first thing I
17:40said is don't do it.
17:42>> [laughter]
17:43>> Quit while you're ahead.
17:44>> Yeah.
17:44>> And that was before you came out here.
17:46>> Yeah.
17:46>> Yeah.
17:47>> The second thing was uh
17:51fill yourself with so much of the word
17:53cuz that's where the structure comes
17:54from, that [clears throat]
17:56okay, so
17:57we've all been in services where
18:00you get to this moment and the spirit's
18:01moving and you're like, I'm not really
18:03sure what to do. And then all of the
18:04sudden, an unction.
18:07And you're okay, that's what we do.
18:08Well, that doesn't come from just
18:10sitting in a prayer room praying. And I
18:12believe in that, and we're going to
18:13pray, and we're going to talk in
18:14tongues, and we're going to have tongues
18:16interpretation, and we're going to do
18:18all of that. But all of that comes from
18:20the structure of the word of God, a
18:22place where the word can come forth.
18:25Nothing supersedes that.
18:28>> He said, "I've magnified my word above
18:29my name."
18:30>> Above my name. It's the structure by
18:32which we are built. We are not just a
18:34spiritual people, cuz if we are, we do
18:37get out and the la-la land and do a
18:39bunch of ignorant stuff.
18:41>> Yeah.
18:41>> What keeps us balanced is the word of
18:43God.
18:43>> It it roots and anchors us.
18:47>> Yep.
18:47>> Absolutely.
18:48>> I can Go ahead, brother Baxter.
18:50>> You know, I think that that one thing is
18:52that that sometimes people think
18:55that being structured is not being
18:57spiritual.
18:58>> Those are not enemies.
18:59>> And so, I don't I actually don't believe
19:01in a fivefold ministry.
19:03>> Same.
19:04>> I believe in a sevenfold ministry.
19:06>> Okay.
19:06>> Because the Bible talks about
19:08apostles, prophets, evangelists,
19:10pastors, and teachers.
19:12But then the second passage it says
19:13helps and governments.
19:15Well, helps and governments are
19:16structural.
19:17>> Yes.
19:17>> But we don't If if you can't scream and
19:20spit and holler and sweat,
19:22we don't necessarily value the ministry.
19:25And so, I think that that one of the
19:28great movements going to happen in this
19:30end time is a reestablishment of helps
19:33and governments
19:35in the kingdom.
19:36>> Yes.
19:37>> When when you look at talking about
19:39structure, if you look at Isaiah 53,
19:42it's the suffering servant.
19:44You know, who hath believed our report
19:46to whom and the arm of the Lord is
19:47revealed. And it talks about the
19:48suffering of the Messiah.
19:52>> Then
19:53from suffering
19:55he moves in 54.
19:57And he moves on from suffering.
20:00And he moves to sing, O barren, thou
20:02that didst not bear. And then he starts
20:04talking about enlarge the place of your
20:06tent.
20:08That's That's the building.
20:09>> Yes.
20:10>> Then
20:11then straight stretch out your curtains.
20:14I believe those are ministries within
20:17those are things within the the
20:18structure
20:20>> Right.
20:20>> that that help us. Women's ministries,
20:22men's ministries, youth ministries,
20:23children's ministries, rehab ministries.
20:26And then he talks about lengthen the
20:27cords. Cords are are things that support
20:31these ministries. It's it's planning,
20:33it's preparing, it's training, it's it
20:36and that's lengthen and and but none of
20:38that is at the expense of strengthening
20:41the stakes, which are foundation, the
20:44things that tie us, the the the doctrine
20:47we preach, the holiness that we believe.
20:49And if and then after you do all that,
20:53he says, "Thou shalt break forth." The
20:55promise of revival
20:58is never given
21:00before preparation.
21:02I'll give you revival, but first you
21:05have to build the tent, you have to
21:07strengthen the you have to stretch the
21:08curtains, you have to lengthen the
21:10cords, and you got to drive the stakes
21:11deep. And then
21:13but if we don't do our part, if you look
21:15every every miracle in the Bible is a
21:18divine reaction to a human action.
21:21>> Yes, absolutely.
21:22>> You build an ark, I'll save your family.
21:24You pick up a jawbone, I'll kill the
21:26Philistines. You throw a rock, I'll kill
21:28a giant. You step out of the boat, I'll
21:30let you walk on water. You straighten up
21:32and praise him and I'll heal your spirit
21:34of infirmity.
21:35>> Yep.
21:35>> It's always a divine reaction to a human
21:38action, but in this modern American
21:42North American Christianity, my
21:44apologies [clears throat] to our
21:45Canadian friends,
21:46>> We're the 51st state now anyways, so it
21:48don't matter.
21:49>> [laughter]
21:49>> is is that we want a divine action with
21:53a human reaction and we are out of order
21:55from the scripture.
21:56>> Right. And and and and because of that,
21:59I think we miss it. We wouldn't even go
22:01get the water.
22:02>> Exactly.
22:03>> I mean, if you're going to convert water
22:04to wine, then just make wine out of air.
22:08And and we can almost develop an
22:09attitude
22:10>> Just give it to us.
22:11>> Just we deserve it. It's all
22:13supernatural because we view these two
22:16things almost as competing elements or
22:20adversarial in relationship. Structure
22:23is not adversarial adversarial to the
22:25supernatural. We need structures that
22:28will house the supernatural.
22:30>> I mean in the beginning God created the
22:31heaven and the earth.
22:34Okay.
22:35>> All right.
22:35>> He created the heaven and the earth. Why
22:36did he do it?
22:38To house life he was going to give.
22:40>> Right.
22:41>> He didn't create life and then make a
22:42heaven and the earth.
22:43>> Right.
22:44>> He created the heaven and the earth and
22:46then made life.
22:47>> Right.
22:47>> And so it's it's a divine process.
22:50>> Can I ask you a question uh just
22:52thought-provoking
22:53>> to me when you start talking about
22:54governments
22:55I do you think and this is just
22:58throwing this out there. Do you think
22:59that we have a cultural issue with that
23:01to where we have created a culture in
23:03Pentecost where if you're not a pastor
23:06or you're not an evangelist
23:08you have failed.
23:09>> Uh yeah.
23:09>> You're not really a minister. The
23:11ministry of the second man is not
23:15uh
23:16smiled upon.
23:17>> Sure.
23:17>> It's not what
23:19>> Yeah.
23:19>> The church has celebritized like the
23:21world has celebritized.
23:22>> Exactly.
23:23>> But the flip side of that as an
23:24evangelist, I have never preached in a
23:26revival church that did not have a
23:29powerful second man.
23:31Never. Not a revival church.
23:33>> a great observation.
23:34>> I'm just talking about from
23:36traveling, if you're going to have
23:37revival there is somebody there that is
23:41got their hands dirty so that the man of
23:43God can step in the pulpit and preach.
23:45>> It's largely structural.
23:46>> It's very structural.
23:47>> Yeah. The the This isn't
23:50the point of tonight's topic. We can
23:51make it.
23:52Um
23:54but he gave fivefold ministry if you're
23:55going to read that verse properly.
23:58>> For the perfecting of the saints to do
23:59the work of the ministry.
24:00>> Yep. Yes.
24:02>> It's it is to develop them
24:05to do the work of the ministry.
24:07That's what I the role of what you're
24:10describing ministry to be is to onboard
24:14saints
24:15>> Yes.
24:16>> to be involved
24:17>> Every ministry needs that.
24:18>> of
24:19>> You can't start daughter works if you
24:20don't build men to send to them.
24:22>> Yeah.
24:22>> And you can't
24:24build those men if you don't give them
24:26uh uh the ability. I've kept a uh diary
24:29for the last 12 years evangelizing.
24:31Uh Brother Upton, Alan Upton, told me to
24:34do that when I first started
24:35evangelizing. And there's a common theme
24:37in things that kill churches. And we're
24:39just Again, we're just talking here.
24:42But that kills and it it is
24:44anti-structure and it is um
24:46micromanaging.
24:48Every church, again, and this is I'm
24:50keeping logs of where I'm going and I'm
24:52not throwing any names north, south,
24:54east, west here, none of that. Um
24:56but churches that don't have revival,
24:59just like the church that has revival
25:01has a strong second man, the churches
25:03that are struggling, and they may have a
25:05good move of God, but they never break
25:07that 120, 130 mark because they the
25:11pastor, the man and the And we all
25:14believe in pastoral authority, don't
25:16misunderstand what I'm saying. But he
25:18doesn't allow people to be what God's
25:20called them to be. And he manages it
25:23down
25:24to where And I'm just evangelist, I
25:25don't know nothing, but um
25:27you're It's a pretty good observation.
25:29>> the journal.
25:30>> [laughter]
25:31>> I don't have I don't have that journal.
25:33You're the one that kept the journal.
25:35>> And [laughter]
25:37it's without fail every time. Those
25:40churches never can break that 100, 150
25:43mark.
25:44>> That's fascinating.
25:45>> The pastor has to lead every service.
25:47And then the flip side of that is the
25:50pastor goes out of town. Hey man, can
25:52you cover service while I'm gone? And
25:54it's like swimming in concrete.
25:56Just try You couldn't buy an amen.
25:59>> Yeah.
26:05>> I made that button in them churches.
26:07>> Yeah.
26:07>> [laughter]
26:08>> Hey, years ago,
26:10Elder Marty Ballestero, I mean, he
26:12evangelized the world.
26:14We were
26:15just nicely starting to use
26:17iPads.
26:18And
26:20he had this
26:21app where you could use it like a
26:23scrolling marquee.
26:25>> [laughter]
26:26>> And he would take his iPad and he would
26:27hang it
26:29over the pulpit and it would say, "Amen.
26:31Amen. Amen. Amen." [laughter]
26:36Doesn't that sound like something he
26:38did?
26:38>> Yes.
26:39Well, that that's what that produces is
26:42it's built on personality and not on a
26:44true biblical structure. And personality
26:47only gets you so far.
26:48>> Okay, so let's talk about it.
26:50You you threw out numbers.
26:52And and
26:53>> Cuz they're kind of important. There's a
26:54whole book in the Bible about them.
26:57>> Oh, don't be bringing the Bible into
26:58this stuff. [laughter] Honestly.
27:01Ruining a good discussion with the
27:02Bible.
27:04>> Well, I think it's important because
27:06>> is.
27:06>> the reality is is
27:07>> Yeah, but don't you know God told David
27:09not to number?
27:10>> Yeah. That was for his own benefit. That
27:13wasn't for God's benefit.
27:14>> trying to
27:15>> Their their numbers were for the fact of
27:17the matter of
27:18I'll multiply you if you're doing the
27:21right thing. And I'll subtract from the
27:23church Ananias and Sapphira when you're
27:26not doing the right thing.
27:28>> And so
27:29I I think it plays a an important role
27:32in the church today because if your
27:34structure has a problem
27:37then you're never going to grow to the
27:38place where you can send daughter works
27:40out.
27:41>> It's not about your
27:41>> your church. I tell you this is just
27:43something I say all the time. It's it's
27:45not original to me, I'm sure. But you
27:47can build the church and not build the
27:48kingdom.
27:49So you have to figure out which one
27:51you're building. If you're building the
27:53church, you're building it on
27:54personality. You're building it so you
27:56can um do what you want to do and how
27:59you want to do it. But if you're
28:00building the kingdom
28:02you're thinking in terms of what can I
28:04do to get heaven to touch earth?
28:07>> Yeah.
28:07>> And what can I do to expand what's
28:09happening regionally here to go
28:13>> Well, that's that's that's back to what
28:14uh
28:15Pastor Vasquez just said.
28:18There there there is a correlation in
28:20Isaiah between government and peace.
28:22>> Yeah.
28:22>> Yeah.
28:22>> Yeah.
28:23>> We're a world that would love peace, but
28:25they hate government. But of the
28:27increase of his government
28:29>> There's shall be
28:30>> and peace.
28:31>> Yes.
28:32>> There shall be no end. You don't get the
28:34end peace without the increase of
28:36government. So, we want to shirk the
28:38government thing
28:40and drink the peace.
28:42Um and and and that's problematic. So,
28:45you you're but but to unpack this
28:48further, the numbers thing. So, as a
28:51church grows,
28:52young ministries that are here, as God
28:55uses you and and blesses you and opens
28:58doors for you and you have to
29:00restructure.
29:01Right.
29:03You have to be willing to restructure.
29:05And a church that's going to go from and
29:08and and and I'm going to just throw out
29:09random numbers, but it's going to go
29:11from 25 to 50,
29:13will have to reinvent itself. And all of
29:15a sudden, if it's going to go from 50 to
29:17100, that that ceiling, that cap,
29:22it's got to be built strong enough to be
29:25the floor for the next level,
29:27but yet not to keep you locked in where
29:30you're at. So,
29:31>> Carl George in his book how to break
29:33growth barriers,
29:34>> Yes.
29:34>> which which in my opinion is a fantastic
29:36book because it it talks about different
29:39bear different number barriers and what
29:42has to change as you as you exceed them.
29:45>> Yeah.
29:46>> His his opening chapter, he presents a
29:48question. And the question is, are you a
29:50rancher or sheep herder?
29:52>> Yeah.
29:52>> Ooh.
29:53>> And his point is that ranchers and sheep
29:55herders do the same thing. They both
29:57raise sheep. But their approach is
29:59different. The sheep herder touches
30:01every sheep. Takes care of every sheep.
30:05Well, a a shepherd can only take care of
30:07about 60 to 80 sheep
30:09because it runs him ragged otherwise.
30:13But what a rancher does is a rancher
30:15trains sheep herders.
30:18And so, the rancher multiplies himself.
30:21And so, at some point every pastor
30:25has to decide if he's a rancher or sheep
30:27herder.
30:27>> Sure.
30:28>> Am I do am am I Do I just want to have
30:3260 to 80 sheep?
30:33>> And can can I can I ask this?
30:35>> Go ahead.
30:36>> You it's possible to start as one and
30:38become the other?
30:39>> I I think I think it um I think it's
30:42cultural
30:43because most of us were raised by sheep
30:46herders.
30:47And so it's the it's the context of our
30:50paradigm.
30:51And as we begin to press cuz I have a
30:53conviction that true leaders are always
30:55one step outside of comfortable.
30:58Because a real leader will never be
31:00satisfied. They're always pressing
31:02pressing barriers. Never always always
31:05innovating and trying to figure out the
31:07next level. And so if we're we're
31:10most of us were raised in the context of
31:12a sheep herder mentality.
31:15But as as if if that mantle of
31:18leadership we begin to press and push
31:21and then our thinking transforms
31:24from sheep herding to ranching.
31:26>> Yes.
31:27>> And the goal in the end is still sheep.
31:31But it's it's a different approach to
31:33multiplying ministry.
31:36>> So good
31:36>> It all flows right back out of where you
31:39started with Adam. So
31:41the concept to to dress and keep was not
31:44just for Adam's square, so to speak. And
31:48this was to to happen over the the
31:49course of the entire globe, right? The
31:51God The glory of God is to cover the
31:52earth. So
31:53>> The earth, yeah.
31:54>> as a rancher
31:56I mean the concept is that Adam was
31:57going to have those that trained under
31:59him to do what he did. So can ranchers
32:04train initially? I guess this is my
32:06question and I've read I've read the
32:07book.
32:09Isn't it the rancher's job to raise
32:10sheep herders?
32:12>> Yes.
32:12>> Okay. So
32:15whether it's a second man or it's a
32:16youth leader
32:17>> Yep.
32:17>> Uh we've got a gentleman here that we
32:19actually met a man that he did youth
32:22ministry with in his in his
32:25teen years years ago. We met him at a
32:27coffee shop. It's just a a crazy
32:28occurrence.
32:30So
32:31these ranchers who have who have it and
32:34we're like, okay. We're we're going to
32:36we're going to build the structure.
32:37We're going to build it out. We're not
32:39building our church. We're building the
32:40kingdom, which means we're not using our
32:42blueprints. We're using his, right?
32:45We're training those. So, if every
32:48leader
32:50some secular statistics are saying
32:52a leader can really only handle 10
32:54people. So, if you want 200, you have to
32:57have 20 really good leaders. Then you
32:59have a pastor
33:01who is
33:01>> You do know
33:02that numbers matter and that one to 10
33:05ratio
33:06>> I heard a friend say that.
33:07>> Did Did you really?
33:09>> One day.
33:09>> Recently?
33:10>> It's in the past. It's been a minute.
33:11>> Yeah.
33:12>> Just a hot minute. Close friend.
33:13>> One to 10
33:16is exactly what ended up
33:19on the day of Pentecost in the upper
33:20room.
33:20>> That's right. It started with 500.
33:22>> And he closed the 12 off before
33:26>> But it it dropped to the level of
33:28leaders.
33:29>> Yeah.
33:30>> The church
33:31>> And they wouldn't go in with the left.
33:32>> or fall to the level of leaders
33:34developed.
33:35>> So, then these
33:36these sheep herders
33:39Yeah, it may be a a Sunday school
33:42superintendent in in his early 30s who
33:44is feeling a call and fleshing it out.
33:47So, he's managing Sunday school
33:48teachers, but who's he learning from?
33:50He's not learning from an
33:52a shepherd. I mean, we call but he's
33:54learning from a rancher. So, he's doing
33:56the job of leading 10,
33:58but the whole time he knows my calling
34:00is bigger than this because the
34:01blueprint is beyond this.
34:02>> So good.
34:03>> there's no other way How else do we
34:05build the kingdom?
34:06>> Yeah.
34:06>> So,
34:06>> God takes it out of you in the same
34:08dimension that he puts it in you.
34:10>> And we come to a point of conflict.
34:12>> Really, we come to a point of tension
34:14because
34:16because
34:18if you are a if
34:20we need sheep herders.
34:22There's some people that are never going
34:23to be comfortable in a large church.
34:25They're introverts. They They have
34:27social anxiety. It could be a myriad of
34:30things.
34:30>> You know, I was listening to a podcast.
34:32You just raised that. I was listening to
34:33a podcast on the way here from the
34:35airport just a few minutes ago.
34:36They said on average, the average size
34:40of a church this Sunday
34:43evangelical
34:44will be 65 people.
34:46That's the average size.
34:48>> If your church gets to 300, you're in
34:50the top 3% of churches in North America,
34:53I think is the statistic.
34:54>> Wow.
34:55>> Um and and that may be off a little bit.
34:58>> What about Canada?
34:59>> So so we
35:00>> Don't don't forget us.
35:02>> So we
35:03>> [laughter]
35:05>> We only got four or five churches up
35:07there anyway.
35:08>> [laughter]
35:09>> So
35:09>> But so there's room there's room for
35:11sheep herders.
35:12That it's not to to diminish or minimize
35:15it.
35:15>> Right.
35:16>> The but what what we don't want to do
35:18also
35:20is
35:22is negate the fact that that we don't
35:24push ourselves because we're insecure.
35:26What if I can't do it? What if I don't
35:28grow my church?
35:29>> Right.
35:30>> And so we create an environment where we
35:32don't push because we're afraid of
35:33failure.
35:34>> Yes.
35:35>> But real leaders, people that excel
35:39have got to become comfortable with
35:41failure.
35:43You've got to be willing to push or you
35:45will not ever reach anything.
35:47>> So good. So good.
35:49Absolutely.
35:50Bishop Mayo said when God sent him to
35:53Spokane, he said, "I'll grow this church
35:54as fast as you grow."
35:57So okay. So that's a perfect setup.
36:01Uh
36:02Pastor Wade Townley
36:04Brewer, Maine
36:06he a number of years ago
36:08had a
36:09a lot of open doors with contacts. He
36:12has open doors and contacts wherever he
36:14goes cuz he's he's just that kind of a
36:17guy.
36:18Um but in in in Boston and he was
36:23at the time really praying sincerely
36:26about well maybe we need to and so from
36:28from Brewer to Boston is
36:31somewhere around two and a half three
36:32hour drive. It's not too extreme, maybe
36:34three and a half.
36:36>> [snorts]
36:37>> He was talking with Brother Lambeth
36:40Bishop Brad Lambeth about it who has
36:42numerous churches.
36:43Okay?
36:45And you know, when when do you make the
36:46move? This This is all again, this can
36:49get both practical and spiritual. And
36:51that's what makes this discussion so
36:53invigorating.
36:54He said when when when do I know to make
36:57a move? I've got contacts, etc. And he
36:59asked some basic questions.
37:02He said, "All right, let's talk about
37:03the church you have right now. Who shuts
37:05the lights out at night?"
37:09He said,
37:10>> "At ours, nobody."
37:12>> [laughter]
37:14>> Well, maybe he'd have permitted you to
37:15go start a church.
37:17>> You'll be comfortable here.
37:18>> [laughter]
37:21>> He said, "I do." He said, "Who turns the
37:23sound system on?" He said, "I do." And
37:24he went through a list of things. And he
37:27said,
37:28"You don't need to go start another
37:29church. You need to fix this first."
37:32>> So, when people come to me with
37:34questions, even if I know the answer, I
37:36won't answer it.
37:37I'll send them to the person.
37:39>> Sure.
37:40>> Because
37:41because you can't train people to drain
37:44you.
37:45Or they will always drain you.
37:46>> Of course.
37:47>> And so, even if I know the answer,
37:49>> one right there. Yeah. Don't train
37:51people to drain you.
37:55Yeah.
37:56>> So So
37:57>> That's it.
37:58>> [laughter]
37:59>> I I thought somebody was getting
38:00attacked back there.
38:01>> Yeah.
38:02So, let it go, sister. Go ahead. This is
38:04the first time we've had the Holy Ghost
38:05break out on the podcast.
38:07>> [laughter]
38:08>> Let it go.
38:09>> So So
38:11even if I know the answer, I'll send
38:12them to the person that's supposed to
38:14give the answer.
38:15>> Sure.
38:15>> Because because you have to create a
38:18culture where other people have room for
38:20their gifts and talents.
38:22And other people can rise and excel. I
38:25don't want to be codependent. I don't
38:27want my church to to need me
38:30or it won't survive. And I don't want to
38:33have to need my church to survive.
38:35>> Yes.
38:36>> to work with The Bible said the Lord
38:37working with them, not for them.
38:39>> Yes, absolutely.
38:40>> to work with my church, not for my
38:42church.
38:43>> Yes. Yes, that is so good.
38:45>> So good.
38:46>> That is so good. So here's here's here's
38:48what happens and you all doing all
38:50right? What's our what's our time?
38:5341?
38:54>> It went quick.
38:55>> It did go quick. You want us to stop or
38:58you want us to keep going?
38:59All right.
39:00All right. Oh, yeah.
39:02It's [cheering] a two-parter.
39:04So can I can I
39:06not turn this but so
39:09um
39:10for the purpose of is it okay for the
39:12purpose of tonight and most of the crowd
39:16that is here. So we've got a lot of
39:18folks that are not what we call pulpit
39:20ministers in the building, okay? And
39:22there
39:22>> Thank God for you.
39:24>> Amen.
39:24>> Amen. That's a Yeah, we we would be out
39:26of a job.
39:27>> I think I think to what brother Philip
39:28said, keep that train of thought but I
39:30think part of that is that pulpit
39:32ministry needs to start recognizing the
39:34rest of ministry.
39:36>> That's right.
39:37>> [applause]
39:38>> Yeah.
39:38>> Like thank God for the person holding
39:40the door. Thank God for the person
39:42cleaning the bathroom. Thank God.
39:43>> Well, so because
39:45of what brother Vasquez is just saying,
39:47there's only
39:49the only way you can work in your role
39:52with your church
39:54is if you're also not doing their job.
39:56>> Correct.
39:57>> They have to do what they can do even
39:59though you can do it. You can cut the
40:00grass. You can plunge the toilet. You
40:02can paint the You can okay, but there
40:04are so many things they can't do.
40:07>> Right.
40:07>> And if you're not reserved to do what is
40:09yours to do
40:11then then then
40:13there's a massive
40:15So structure creates authority in other
40:19people's lives. So pastoral authority,
40:22>> Right?
40:23>> Yeah. What is pastoral authority? Okay?
40:25If it's not
40:27creating authority in the people.
40:29>> Yep.
40:30>> Moses, I'm going to take from you and
40:31I'm going to give to
40:33>> It's
40:33>> Yeah.
40:34>> So if we're building his kingdom, we got
40:35to build by his blueprint.
40:37Exactly. Your spirit
40:39>> A lot of times leaders delegate tasks
40:42but never delegate authority.
40:44>> That is exactly
40:46Yeah.
40:46>> We don't give them the right to do it.
40:48>> That's
40:48>> Yeah, that's it.
40:50>> And it's not
40:52easy.
40:53>> It's not.
40:53>> It's a learning process for all of us.
40:55So,
40:56>> You can't be You can't be insecure.
40:59>> A Korah will show up.
41:01>> Oh, yeah.
41:01>> Yeah. If that's that's the You leave
41:03yourself open because Korah's always
41:05standing in the
41:06>> I've had what I felt would be mortal
41:08wounds.
41:10Thank the Lord they weren't, but almost
41:12all of them were inflicted by someone
41:14very close to me.
41:15>> Yeah.
41:16>> But you can't let that cause you to quit
41:19letting people get close.
41:21>> Yeah. Well, the reality is is we we look
41:23at the structure of the tabernacle,
41:26the
41:27mercy seat,
41:29Aaron, that was his job to go in there
41:31and to sprinkle the blood.
41:33Um it was Aaron and his sons' job to
41:36carry the ark of the covenant, but it
41:38was the sons of Korah's or the Kor- the
41:42Kohathites
41:43>> Yeah.
41:43>> that carried the ark of sacrifice.
41:46>> Mhm.
41:47>> And the ark of the covenant don't work
41:50without the ark of sacrifice cuz that's
41:52where you get the blood.
41:53>> Right.
41:53>> Those That goes to the judgment.
41:55>> The three sons.
41:57And there there were that they had that
42:00oversight of the tabernacle.
42:02Their job was to set up, break down, and
42:04transport.
42:05There were three sons.
42:07>> And that's it.
42:08>> Two of them
42:10got wagons and oxen.
42:12>> Yep.
42:13>> And one of them had to carry it on their
42:14shoulders.
42:15>> Sure.
42:16>> And and so
42:18there's some things that can't be
42:21carried by structure.
42:23They can only be carried by
42:24relationship.
42:25>> Yep.
42:26>> But the value of that relationship is
42:28you have to carry the ark over rocks and
42:31creeks and briers.
42:33>> Stand under the ark.
42:34>> to have your head 6 inches from the
42:36glory of God.
42:37And and so the value of it is is there,
42:41but but at the same time God did give
42:44oxen
42:46and wagons
42:47to carry the structure
42:49cuz that's important.
42:50>> Yes.
42:51>> Well, the Korahites that and that
42:53>> Coincides I think is the word.
42:55>> coincides. They they had to
42:57uh
42:58to your point, put it on their
42:59shoulders. And it was them that would
43:01again, circling back, carry the ark
43:04of sacrifice,
43:05um the brazen altar.
43:07But they didn't realize they were
43:09carrying around a type of Christ.
43:11Cuz as you look, Aaron's job's going to
43:13go away.
43:15And I'm going to
43:16I'm not going to need somebody to go
43:18behind the veil anymore cuz that's going
43:19to be ripped in twain.
43:21But one day, and this is just
43:22interesting to me, but they would take
43:25it and cover it with a purple garment,
43:27the ark of sacrifice. And one day,
43:30they're going to pull the ark the purple
43:32garment off of the ark of sacrifice
43:34again. They thought it was a menial job.
43:36That's what got Korah in a bad place.
43:39And Moses said, "Do you you think it's
43:41strange? You God called you out of the
43:43congregation to see parts of the
43:45tabernacle that nobody else has ever
43:47seen."
43:48>> Nobody else.
43:49>> And so young preacher,
43:50uh a if all he ever is is a help, you
43:54don't need to take it for granted that
43:56you're getting to see parts of the
43:57tabernacle that nobody else gets to go
43:59in there and see.
44:00>> Think about this.
44:02Yeah.
44:03>> [laughter]
44:04>> Hey, Brother Wells needs a mic.
44:07I can see him boiling back there.
44:09But the old fly fisherman, there's one
44:11coming for the bait.
44:13Think about this. How many times
44:18the Bible says that Elisha was a prophet
44:22to Elijah in his room.
44:24>> Poured water on his hands.
44:25>> He was a prophet to a prophet before he
44:27was a prophet to God's people.
44:30>> Mhm.
44:30>> Mhm.
44:31>> That's so good.
44:31>> That is good.
44:32>> And so when he was in the privacy
44:35of Elijah's room, a man that struggled
44:39with depression, a man that was suicidal
44:41at one point, he had a lot that he could
44:44have used against that man.
44:46But think about how many times
44:49he got to handle the mantle
44:52before it ever landed on him.
44:54>> That's so good.
44:55>> Elijah would take it off at night and
44:57say, "Hang that on that chair over
44:58there."
44:58And he'd pick it up.
45:00>> You know, we You should Somebody should
45:01preach on that. Yeah.
45:03>> Yeah.
45:03>> Handling the mantle before it's yours.
45:05Come on now.
45:06>> Well, you know, that mantle, I think the
45:08Hebrew, if I'm not mistaken, is the word
45:10aderet.
45:11Which was a mantle that had sleeves. It
45:13wasn't a shawl that they threw over
45:14their shoulders.
45:15>> Sure.
45:15>> It was like a garment that they wore.
45:17So, the question is, how did it fall?
45:20When Elijah's taken up
45:22in the chariot, how did If it's just a
45:24shawl, I understand it can fall.
45:26>> Yeah.
45:26>> But if it's a garment with sleeves, how
45:29did it fall? It's because an elder was
45:31willing to take it off and pass it.
45:33>> Yes.
45:34>> Yeah, too many of us are going
45:36taking our mantle with us.
45:38>> Yes.
45:39>> Want to be buried in it.
45:41>> And so So, that's So, Elijah Elijah
45:45passed his mantle.
45:47>> Yes.
45:47>> But Elisha, when when Elijah when Elisha
45:51saw Elijah to leave, he said, "My
45:53father, my father, the horsemen of
45:55Israel and the chariot thereof."
45:57And then And then Elijah was gone. So,
45:59now you fast forward 40 years or so,
46:02Elisha's on his deathbed.
46:04>> Joe.
46:05>> walks in the door and says the exact
46:07words that he had said, "My father, my
46:09father,
46:10>> Yep.
46:10>> the chariot of Israel and the horsemen
46:12thereof."
46:13>> Yes.
46:13>> And Elisha thinks, "I've found the man
46:15to take my mantle." So, he gives him the
46:17double portion test.
46:19>> Mhm.
46:19>> "Take these arrows and smite them."
46:21>> Yep.
46:21>> He smites them three times, and he says,
46:23"You should have done it six."
46:25>> "You don't have a double portion
46:27mentality. You can't have my mantle."
46:29And the last verse of Elisha's life was,
46:32"And the man of God was wroth."
46:35And he died. He died mad.
46:37>> Yes.
46:37>> And so, he dies with his mantle. They
46:39put him in a cave. A war breaks out. A
46:42soldier dies.
46:43>> Yeah.
46:44>> They throw him in.
46:45And he doesn't just land on the bones of
46:47Elisha. He lands on the mantle.
46:49>> Yeah.
46:50>> And there's still life in it.
46:51>> Which is both structure and
46:53supernatural.
46:53>> Absolutely.
46:54>> Yeah.
46:54>> And in a lot of ways
46:55>> To marry together.
46:56>> Married together. Married together.
46:58In a lot of ways, that ministry, we
47:01never see it like that again.
47:04>> It's not glamorous.
47:05>> Yeah.
47:07>> [snorts]
47:07>> So,
47:08this is this is great. So, let let me
47:11let me
47:14turn the prism a bit and and let's let's
47:17let's go back to what we had talked
47:18about. First of all, I want I want to
47:19make one statement in response uh
47:22Pastor Bosco's to what you said a moment
47:24ago go about if we're not careful
47:27we can invest in people, they can
47:28abandon us, walk away from us.
47:31We're we're we're struck with with with
47:33that peril.
47:35This is something that I've learned of
47:36late. You can't betray me if you're not
47:39close to me.
47:40Right.
47:42You may be able to hurt me from a
47:43distance,
47:44but you got to be close to me
47:46to know things about me
47:48>> Mhm.
47:49>> if you're going to really betray me.
47:51And it's got to matter to you.
47:53It has to matter to you for it to matter
47:55to you.
47:55>> Yes.
47:56Yes.
47:58So,
47:59um but the the one thing I want to just
48:01turn a little bit is cuz I think this is
48:03significant. Every ministry is in
48:05transition.
48:07If you're doing anything,
48:09there's nothing that's ever static.
48:11>> Yeah.
48:12>> It's you're always Every pastor is in
48:14transition.
48:15>> I'm a placeholder.
48:16>> Yeah.
48:17Like I'm going to be out. I'm I'm I'm 47
48:19years of age and if God tarries, I will
48:22transition out. I am just there for a
48:25season. All right? So, ownership cannot
48:29get a hold of us.
48:30>> Mhm.
48:31>> We're we're here to steward it
48:34>> Yeah.
48:34>> for this season.
48:36>> Yeah.
48:36>> So, that means that as I go through
48:38different seasons,
48:40I have to be willing
48:43to re
48:44or uh may maybe I could say this way,
48:46renovate the structure.
48:48>> Mhm.
48:48>> Okay? If we go from glory to glory
48:53and it takes structure for glory
48:55to occupy,
48:57then we probably have to go from
48:59structure to structure.
49:01>> Yeah. Right.
49:02>> And that not not just
49:05yes, building to building.
49:07But
49:08>> No, no, no, no.
49:08>> But administrative structure.
49:09>> 100%.
49:10>> Recreating and it just it looking same
49:13people, complete different look, feel.
49:15>> Well 100%.
49:16>> it, you get in different dimensions.
49:18Jacob he gets to a place called Luz in
49:21Genesis 29.
49:22>> Yeah.
49:22>> And there he sees God.
49:24>> Yes. [snorts]
49:24>> But then what is it? He comes back a
49:25couple chapters later, it's the same
49:27place. He's changed the name of it
49:29>> Yeah.
49:30>> from Luz to Bethel. Then he changes the
49:32name of it from Bethel to El-Bethel. And
49:35every time he goes from seeing God to
49:37touching God.
49:37>> Yes.
49:38>> Now I'm just it there's a different
49:40dimension.
49:40>> Okay, and what does God do after he
49:42wrestles with him?
49:44>> He changes his walk.
49:45>> He touches his structure.
49:47>> Yeah.
49:47>> Yep. You can't
49:48>> Because identity changes if you don't
49:50get structure changed.
49:51>> going to lay the tent of identity on
49:54of of Israel on the structure of a
49:56Jacob.
49:57>> Mhm. Yep.
49:59>> So the structure has got to be
50:01renovated. This is This is Isaiah
50:06transition in the year that King Uzziah
50:09dies. Okay, everything is is now glory
50:13comes and it starts shaking the
50:15structure, the door post
50:17>> Yeah.
50:18>> are moving. It's it's All right? The
50:20This This is the four men that bring the
50:23lame men.
50:24And they go, "Hey, hey, if we got to
50:26tear a hole in it, we got to tear a hole
50:27in it." This is structure.
50:29>> story.
50:30>> Yeah.
50:30>> Because they're they're tearing the roof
50:32off.
50:33So the Bible called that Capernaum
50:36Jesus' own city.
50:37>> Yes.
50:38>> As he grew older he adopted that as his
50:41hometown. He Most of his disciples were
50:44from that area. Many of his greatest
50:46miracles were there. He knew that city
50:48inside and out. So my question for you
50:50guys
50:51is how many houses did he walk by
50:55before he found one that would let him
50:57rip the roof off?
50:58>> Mhm.
50:58>> Oh, yeah.
50:59>> How many people You know, I can't go
51:01there. They'll get mad if they start
51:03tearing the roof off of that [snorts]
51:04house. And I if we go over there, she's
51:06going to get mad when the crowd shows
51:07up. And so I wonder how many houses he
51:10walked by before he found a house that
51:12no matter what I do there
51:15having an open heaven and a miracle is
51:17worth it. And I wonder how many churches
51:19he has to walk by because we don't want
51:21the mess that it takes to see the power
51:23of God move. We we'd spend the whole
51:25cuz we got to fix the roof.
51:30>> [applause]
51:30>> So,
51:32if we're not careful,
51:34we'll have a revelation experience where
51:37Jesus is outside the structure knocking
51:39on the door going
51:40>> visitation
51:41>> Oh, it'd be nice to get back in.
51:44Right? It used to be that he was there,
51:47but now he's on the outside.
51:49>> So, so the wilderness we're we're
51:51talking we talked about we're talking
51:53about Israel. So, what was the purpose
51:55of the wilderness?
51:56There were two purposes for the
51:58wilderness.
51:59One of them, he spent the whole
52:01wilderness giving them structures, laws,
52:04rules, statutes because they have to
52:07learn how to be a kingdom. They got to
52:09transition from slaves to citizens. And
52:13that takes laws, rules. And so it took
52:1540 years. Yes. The other thing that kept
52:18them in the wilderness was when they
52:20turned back, he told them, "Your
52:22carcasses will die in the wilderness."
52:24And so it took 40 years till that last
52:26funeral happened because there are some
52:28things
52:29that cannot live and us reach our
52:32destiny.
52:34And so
52:35we have to allow God to to give us
52:37structure and we have to allow him to
52:40kill things in us
52:42that will keep us from our purpose.
52:43>> 100%. Is that possibly why Moses doesn't
52:47get to go into the promised land because
52:48he grew up in the structure of Egypt?
52:51And God says, "Okay, you can't take that
52:54what into Moses upset with God and
52:57started
52:57>> Moses didn't make it into the promised
52:59land because the young him didn't defend
53:01the old him.
53:04>> That's good. a young man, a younger
53:06Moses that smites the rock the second
53:08time, and the old man Moses on Pisgah
53:11doesn't get to go in because the young
53:13man didn't defend him.
53:15And every one of us has an elder inside
53:18of us.
53:19And what we do from day to day
53:21will either
53:22keep us from our destiny or push us into
53:25our destiny.
53:26>> That's so good.
53:27>> And you have to defend the elder that's
53:28inside of you.
53:30>> [applause]
53:30>> That's so good.
53:32>> Be kind to the man you're going to be.
53:33>> Exactly.
53:34>> Yeah.
53:36So good. Um
53:39I I I think we could wrap up with this
53:42and then maybe open for questions. Um
53:45Jesus we we see this
53:49in Jesus' ministry. They they they they
53:51have a hard time
53:53putting him into the structure of
53:54religiosity.
53:56>> Mhm.
53:57>> When he makes statements like, "I'm
53:58going to tear the temple down and
53:59rebuild it in 3 days." They're like
54:01>> Yeah.
54:01>> They they they're they're like, "No."
54:04>> Yeah.
54:04>> Before Abraham was.
54:05>> Yeah, you know, he he is so he just
54:08doesn't fit into everybody's little cute
54:11box.
54:12>> Okay.
54:13>> So
54:14he looks at his disciples when he's
54:16feeding the 5,000 and
54:19and they are hungry, they're in the
54:21wilderness.
54:23And he looks at them and he says
54:26"Hey disciples,
54:28I want you to tell all these folks to
54:29sit down in groups of 50."
54:33That's structure.
54:34>> Mhm.
54:37>> That's order.
54:39Now, I have a miracle out here,
54:43but I I've I've I've you've got to be
54:46willing to submit to the structure that
54:49that I have for this miracle to come to.
54:53Not only that,
54:55you have to be willing to submit to a
54:57man telling you what to do.
54:59>> Yeah.
55:00And not not the miracle worker.
55:01>> Not the miracle worker.
55:04There's no record of Jesus looking at
55:06them and saying, "Hey, sit down in
55:07groups of 50." They heard the disciples.
55:10This is delegated authority.
55:12>> And Jesus didn't give them bread. The
55:13Bible says he gave the bread to the
55:15disciples and the disciples to the
55:16people.
55:17>> He did. Now, you know
55:19if there was anybody
55:21in that in that day that that that
55:24would hang around Pentecost as we know
55:26it today, there'd be somebody going,
55:28"Well, I just I want to be in that
55:30group." No, there's 51 back over here.
55:33>> [laughter]
55:34>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 "Well, what
55:36difference is that going to make?" "Sit
55:38down." "Well, I don't want to sit down."
55:40>> Enough difference that we got to replace
55:41a disciple that killed himself.
55:45Cuz there's something about that that
55:46structure that he wants.
55:48>> That's it.
55:49>> He wants to put that disciple back in
55:50his place.
55:52>> How many miracles
55:54are we missing
55:56because number one the
55:59the leader, the the Jesus of the moment,
56:02not that we're little gods running
56:04around, but we I won't won't delegate
56:09>> Mhm.
56:09>> both authority and assignment.
56:13We have a people that won't take it.
56:17And and and and thus we have a God
56:18that's sitting there going, "I've got
56:20whatever we need to multiply here. I'm
56:22just waiting for a structure that I can
56:24move in."
56:25>> And he will not give up on the
56:28structure.
56:28>> No.
56:29No. There is
56:30We do not get to put our stamp of
56:32approval on it.
56:33>> things that would feel like a mortal
56:34wound.
56:35You know, there is a Judas that's close
56:37enough to hear what he says on this
56:38side. What thou has to do, do it
56:40quickly.
56:42And then there's a John.
56:43>> Yeah.
56:44>> That's the same proximity.
56:46>> Yeah. Yeah.
56:46>> But John will hold on through Patmos.
56:49Judas is fixing to bail. So, what if
56:51Jesus would have given up on the
56:52structure?
56:53How tempting is it the next time it's
56:56like, "I'm going to hold them at arm's
56:57length." Cuz the last guy that Jesus
57:00doesn't do it. And then
57:01the Holy Ghost demands
57:04that we fix the 12 up. We get the 12th
57:06voted in.
57:08And then we can have the day of
57:09Pentecost.
57:11And so those miracles
57:13the the the feeding of the 5,000
57:15in Matthew 14 is followed in the very
57:18next chapter by the feeding of the
57:194,000, Matthew 15.
57:22Scholars have wondered why
57:25the two stories are back-to-back. They
57:27they the modern scholars think it's a
57:30waste of time to have two such similar
57:32miracles one in Matthew 14 and one in
57:35Matthew 15.
57:37Matthew 14, he feeds 5,000 with five
57:40loaves and two fish.
57:42Matthew 15, he feeds 4,000 with seven
57:45loaves and a few fish.
57:47He has more resources to feed less
57:49people.
57:51He has less resources in 14, but it goes
57:54further.
57:55The difference between the two miracles
57:57is Matthew 14 is a Jewish area. They're
58:00believers.
58:02Matthew 15's a Gentile area.
58:04They're non-believers. It always takes
58:06more resources to reach non-believers
58:10than it does believers.
58:12But if the disciples, if the church ever
58:15decides that we don't want to spend it
58:18on lost people
58:20keep the bread because in Matthew 14,
58:23they didn't have bread. In Matthew 15,
58:25the disciples had bread.
58:27He said, "Tell me what you got." Oh,
58:29we've got we've got we've got this
58:31>> There was no need of a little lad there.
58:32>> They had the loaves themselves, but they
58:35were willing to take a little boy's
58:36bread, but not willing to give their
58:38own.
58:38>> Uh
58:39it's way easier to give someone else's
58:40stuff away.
58:42>> But it's easier
58:44to want it for people that are like you
58:46>> Yeah.
58:47>> than it is to want to give it to people
58:49>> Yeah.
58:49>> that are Gentiles and don't know God.
58:55>> [applause]
59:00>> Man, what about these panelists? Hasn't
59:01this been awesome? Let them know how
59:03much you appreciate it.
59:04>> [applause]
59:10[music]
59:15[music]
59:23[music]
59:31>> Hey.

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