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Build A $100M Brand Using Influencers & Viral Marketing | Kent Yoshimura | FO587 Raj Shamani — Transcript

by Raj Shamani · 26,182 words · 4,056 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00You're one of the fastest growing D2C
0:01brands in the world. Tell me what's the
0:03smartest thing you did in Neurogun,
0:05which a new founder can copy and the
0:08world doesn't know about. We got
0:09creators and we used affiliate marketing
0:11to a degree incentivized those
0:13influencers to be able to make money on
0:15every single sale you're doing. Like our
0:17top creators made like $150,000 in a
0:20month. No way. That's a CEO salary.
0:23There has to be something which would be
0:24of like blow up moment. It's easy to
0:26break down a company into five different
0:29sections. There's ops, sales, finance,
0:32marketing, and then leadership.
0:33Everything you're doing to grow the
0:35business should be within all those
0:36frameworks and how those frameworks
0:38communicate with each other. And we hire
0:40those people into the team. And we
0:41thought of a organizational framework
0:42like the business took off. So, how do
0:44you hire? What do you look for people?
0:46Trust. Is it a person that you have
0:47trust in from an experiential level, but
0:49also a personal level? Two, is there
0:52humility involved? Is this person
0:53willing to admit their mistakes so that
0:55they could learn from it? Which leads
0:57into the third thing, finding a problem
0:59solver. Tell me three values that you as
1:01a brand stand for. When we build out our
1:03brand book, we talk about do we have
1:05calm leadership? We should always be
1:07able to solve any problem with a smile
1:09on our face. Humility. Do all of us, no
1:12matter what position we're in,
1:14understand that every level serves
1:16others. It is. And the last one, funny
1:18enough, is kaizen. It is progress over
1:20perfection. to improve every single day
1:23versus chasing perfection is a better
1:26mantra for life because there is no such
1:28thing as perfection.
1:29>> Someone who want to become an
1:30entrepreneur wants to build a brand.
1:32What do you think? What is the next
1:34category where somebody could build a
1:36billion dollar brand next?
1:38>> I do think in the future stress is going
1:41to be a very very big thing. So any
1:43product that satisfies I think will be
1:46very very big. And usually throughout
1:48the history, sex, stress, sleep, these
1:50are like three biggest markets. No
1:52matter what you do,
1:53>> that's never going to change, by the
1:54way.
1:54>> Yeah. What's the most expensive mistake
1:58you made during your neuro career?
2:01>> With our trademark, a company owned by
2:04someone worth $100 million came in and
2:07sued us. I I mean, it would have
2:09bankrupted our company.
2:13>> I have a small favor to ask you. I need
2:16you to subscribe to our channel. The
2:18more subscribers we have, the better and
2:20bigger guests we can bring and provide
2:22you more value through these
2:24conversations. And the full audio
2:26experience of this show is also
2:28available on Spotify where you can
2:30follow us and listen to the new episodes
2:33as well. In 2020, two founders walked
2:35onto Shark Tank and rejected a $1
2:38million offer. Today, their functional
2:41gum company has done $1 135 million in
2:44sales and sits in more than 20,000
2:47stores across the US. Today's guest is
2:51Kent Yoshimura, co-founder and CEO of
2:54Neuro. In this episode, we'll discuss
2:57what are the three psychological
2:59triggers they use to make people buy.
3:02How did one of their creators make
3:05$150,000
3:06in a single month selling gums? How did
3:10they build an army of 2500 creators to
3:14market and make their products viral all
3:17around the internet? How do you get
3:19other brands to distribute your product
3:21for free? And how did one lawsuit almost
3:25shut down Neuro their entire business?
3:29Watch this episode till the end. And to
3:31know more about Nuro, check the link in
3:33the description below.
3:38So, let's break it down for every
3:39entrepreneur who's watching this cuz you
3:41guys are obviously killing it. Everyone
3:43at this point, whether you're available
3:45in their country or not, people have
3:46heard about you, right? If they're
3:47online, they've seen some version of
3:50this either through ads, through creator
3:51armies or like fake
3:53>> or fake like some right? Like
3:55people have figured out you're
3:57>> you're one of the fastest growing D2C
3:59brands in the world.
4:00>> Mh.
4:01>> And you're profitable. That's unheard
4:03of. And you're creating a new category
4:05which is even more difficult, right?
4:07You're not in a category where like, oh,
4:09this is energy drink. It's always been
4:11there, so here's another one. Like, it's
4:13this is some new
4:14>> So, you guys are killing it.
4:16>> Tell me what's the smartest thing you
4:18did in Eurogum which a new founder can
4:21copy
4:22>> and the world doesn't know about it.
4:25>> That the world doesn't know about. I
4:26think
4:29I think the biggest thing with
4:31entrepreneurs sometimes is they go in
4:34with so much confidence that they think
4:36they know what's right. And I think
4:38understanding your weakness is one of
4:40the most important things because when
4:41you lay out and same with martial arts,
4:43right? Like you when you're in a fight,
4:45the first round is usually trying to
4:47figure out, okay, these are the type of
4:49strikes, type of movements that the
4:51opponent is doing, and then you adjust
4:52effectively to it. for us. If you
4:56understand your weakness as an
4:58entrepreneur, then you know the right
5:00people to hire to make up for it. And so
5:02you can't have egos that are involved.
5:05And sometimes for a lot of people, like
5:07most brands, it's how do I get that
5:09initial impact of a brand? So they
5:12partner with a celebrity because it's
5:13very easy to get that impression base.
5:17For some people, it's operational. So
5:18they hire in like a president or a COO
5:20that could effectively run the business.
5:23And you know for us the impact piece
5:25wasn't the most important but getting
5:28that word out from the impact piece at
5:29an operational level was the key thing.
5:32So as we started hiring people whether
5:35it's finance or ops you know it's easy
5:38to break down a company if you're a new
5:40budding entrepreneur into like five
5:43different sections.
5:44>> Yeah. There's ops, sales, finance,
5:49um, marketing, and then leadership to
5:53tie all those pieces together.
5:54Everything you're doing to grow the
5:56business should be within all those
5:57frameworks and how those frameworks
5:59communicate with each other.
6:02So that's it. That's it. And it could be
6:04one person, it could be I mean,
6:06>> so that's what you did. You found out
6:08people in the beginning.
6:09>> Yeah, we um, you know, I think well,
6:11this is a less than 3 four years. And
6:14you know, I think fighting is a a solo
6:17sport. So I think I grew up like
6:18thinking I could do this all by myself
6:20with my co-founder, you know, and the
6:24reality was when we raised a little bit
6:27more money 5 years in and we hired those
6:31people into the team and we thought of
6:32an organizational framework of like
6:34these are the people that are best at
6:36their pillars and their departments and
6:38they're all communicating with each
6:39other
6:41like the business took off. H
6:44But then when you talk about business
6:46taking off, there has to be something
6:49which was which would be a like blow up
6:51moment. What smart thing did you do
6:53there which helped you blew up? Like
6:55what worked in your favor?
6:57>> So the biggest thing for us, well there
6:58were a few big things. So like you know
7:00obviously Shark Tank and Joe Rogan I I
7:02would say is uh timing meets like right
7:06the right decisions and luck and all
7:08that stuff I was talking about. Um, Tik
7:11Tok when it first came out, there's
7:13always an opportunity with new
7:16platforms.
7:17>> And this is the same with AI and any
7:19like literally any business in history.
7:22>> There are people who think a little bit
7:25differently. There's no laws written
7:28like there's no laws with AI right now.
7:29There are, but they're not. There's not,
7:30right? So, they'll break all the rules
7:32as they're building their business,
7:33building the business until things catch
7:35up to them.
7:37I'm not saying we're breaking rules
7:40or loss. But with Tik Tok, are you sure?
7:45It was on camera with uh
7:48>> Tik Tok.
7:48>> Tik Tok there was a new platform. There
7:53was an entire creator ecosystem. And we
7:56used affiliate marketing to a degree in
7:58the past, but not at the scale Tik Tok
8:01was building it. And it became obvious
8:03to us that if we figure out the
8:07psychological triggers that get people
8:09to buy on a social media platform where
8:11they stick on even just for like 2 3
8:13seconds that we could capture their
8:14attention and then get them to like hear
8:18us out. We know we could sell our
8:19product. So, every single day, my uh
8:23head of growth, who runs our TikTok, who
8:27was an Amazon guy before, and I, New
8:30Year's resolution, like a few years ago,
8:32we're like, let's post every single day
8:34on Tik Tok and figure out what hooks
8:36work with our products so that we could
8:38build the psychological trigger base
8:41that we could apply to everything else
8:43in the business as marketing. And so we
8:46did that immediate like a month later we
8:49go viral viral viral viral like it's
8:53like back to backtoback videos and we're
8:54like okay we figured something out then
8:57we got creators of
8:58>> this is your own platform
9:00>> our own platform well this is on Tik Tok
9:02but platform
9:03>> like your own channel on the on Tik Tok
9:05and you just okay
9:07>> and now Tik Tok's massive on Tik Tok
9:09massive
9:10>> but you know in many ways we built the
9:14brand like we built guide for a lot of
9:16that stuff. You know, there's
9:18>> So, every day, how many posts, how many
9:20Tik Toks were you pro promoting or
9:22producing?
9:23>> So, at our peak, we had 2500 creators. I
9:28think we have 2500 creators.
9:30>> No, before creators, just you when you
9:31were doing
9:32>> Oh, like three, four, five like posts.
9:34Nothing crazy.
9:36>> Okay. So, four posts a day every day for
9:3930 days and you were just trying
9:40different different kind of hooks,
9:42different kind of things. What worked in
9:43your favor? Give me top three lessons
9:45that anybody can steal right now.
9:47>> So there's different psych. So there's I
9:50keep using the word psychological
9:52triggers, but it is true. Like when you
9:54go to someone and it's like the art of
9:56selling comes from do you feel left out?
9:59Oh my god, everyone else is taking your
10:01gum, but I'm not taking it right. There
10:03is like um that component of it. There
10:06is insecurities. So oh my god, I feel so
10:10tired and I don't have the like I
10:12stumble over my words. um is there a
10:15product out there that could help me
10:16have the confidence to be able to get
10:17rid of my brain fog so that I could
10:20speak better and then there's other
10:23psychological triggers like uh this is
10:26if I don't have this my I am missing out
10:29on some it's similar to FOMO but at a
10:33self-improvement level which is all the
10:35biohackers
10:36>> okay give me tell me more about this I
10:38got the left out and then the insecurity
10:39and what's this one
10:40>> left out the insecurities
10:43um like uh it's it's similar to being
10:48left out but left being left out is a
10:50social construct.
10:51>> Yeah.
10:52>> Another one is tapping into and this is
10:55a combination of probably left out and
10:56insecurity but another psychological
10:58trigger that we tapped into the
11:00biohackers with is I am trying to
11:03maximize my day but I am having the
11:05inability to do so because something is
11:07missing in my life. So how do you fit
11:11into that? It's a self-improvement
11:13construct.
11:14>> Interesting.
11:15>> Do you remember any hook from each one
11:17of them so that I can get an example?
11:19>> Absolutely.
11:20>> Yeah. So tell me one example for left
11:22out. How do you create
11:24a a Tik Tok or a real or a video where
11:27you are able to communicate or give
11:29people FOMO that hey everyone else is
11:31taking and I'm the only one who's who's
11:33loser who's not taking it.
11:34>> The easiest way to do it if you have
11:36good media is get the PR that you need.
11:39So, it's like Time magazine's talking
11:41about it. Kim Kardashian is posting
11:43about it. Joe Rogan is talking about it.
11:46You've seen it on Shark Tank, right?
11:48There's all this earned media all of a
11:50sudden and like and then you show all
11:52these people like chewing it like these
11:54famous people especially chewing the
11:56product and then all of a sudden you're
11:57like if famous people are chewing it why
12:00am I not
12:03you know and that almost plays into the
12:06other one on the self-improvement piece.
12:08an example of the self-improvement. Have
12:10you seen Limitless?
12:11>> No.
12:11>> The movie?
12:12>> No.
12:13>> Um, with Bradley Cooper, it was a pill
12:15that makes you a genius. So, you take
12:18So, the
12:18>> I know about it. Yeah. Yeah.
12:19>> So, the the hook was just like the
12:21Limitless pill is here now.
12:24>> Oh,
12:24>> the real life limitless pill is here.
12:26So, now that's not feeling left out or
12:29an insecurity. It's oh my god, I could
12:32be limitless, right? So, that's another
12:35hook. That's like that something is
12:37missing out kind of thing.
12:38>> Yeah. Like but for yourself.
12:41>> Yeah.
12:41>> Not within a social construct.
12:43>> Okay. Yes.
12:44>> And then that last one, the insecurity
12:46is like I mean how you're you're still
12:5029 so you probably don't get these ads.
12:52I'm 38. I get ads on my Instagram for
12:56hair loss, my dick not working,
13:00uh like all those things, right? Like
13:02marriage counseling. Those are all like
13:06small like those are insecurities that
13:08people once they get into their older
13:09age field. So like I'm the perfect
13:12audience. Like I mean I have hair and
13:14you know everything everything's fine
13:15but
13:18but um I'm getting targeted and I'm sure
13:20the second you turn 35 you're going to
13:22get those ads too.
13:23>> Yes.
13:23>> Cuz those are insecurities that people
13:25have deep down in them that they're like
13:27okay I need to be able to fix.
13:29>> Right. So,
13:30>> so that audience you tapped on with gum
13:33>> and the way you tap into it for us is
13:35>> like what were you saying like what give
13:37me a
13:38>> like an example?
13:39>> Yeah, give me an example. Give me a
13:40sample.
13:41>> I'll give you I'll give you two
13:43examples. One that's you know reasonable
13:45and one that's more on the extreme side.
13:47>> Okay. Give me both. So on the reasonable
13:50side, uh, for us, it's like if you're
13:53going on a date and you don't have the
13:56confidence because you're stumbling over
13:57your words, you're tired after a full
13:58day, anything, this is a product that
14:01you could chew right beforehand, and
14:03your words will come out like free
14:05flowing. Like you'll you'll have the
14:07confidence, the energy, and the focus to
14:09be able to crush it in that moment
14:11before you're going. And you see with
14:12India marketing too before going into a
14:14meeting or a podcast like this I pop a
14:17piece and I'm locked in. I'm ready to go
14:20you know. So you're going to crush your
14:22job interview. You're going to crush
14:23your promotion. You're going to crush
14:24your So
14:27that's it. That's having that conf. It's
14:30it's less so insecurity. It's building
14:32that confidence. But that's also
14:35expanding into you know there's been
14:38evidence around caffeine and elenine
14:40like we have science backing on
14:42everything that we do. The clinical
14:44trials have showed that this helps
14:47people with their focus problems. So
14:49what's a focus problem that people have?
14:51ADD ADHD. And when you're have ADD ADHD
14:55and you have dopamine cuz you're doom
14:58scrolling all the time and you can't
14:59focus. And because you can't focus,
15:02other things in your life are suffering
15:05and you're struggling to be able to do
15:07things. We're a product that could come
15:10in and help you fix that.
15:12>> So you could anchor that insecurity
15:16into anything, right? The the through
15:20into everything.
15:21>> Interesting. Okay. So this is I I love
15:23this by the way. This psychological
15:25triggers. So this is what you would do
15:26every day. four or five content pieces.
15:29You would try out these different
15:30things. Either the left out insecurities
15:32or something is missing. These three
15:34things you would tap on and you would
15:36find out the winning ones. So you would
15:37go viral again and again again
15:39>> and then the creators came in. Right.
15:40>> Exactly.
15:41>> So what happens with the creator? What
15:42was
15:42>> you have this
15:44>> and you create these hooks that are
15:46actually working and make sense. How do
15:49you deploy that into an army of people
15:52that can now do it times 2500?
15:55>> Yeah. You know, so now all of a sudden,
15:57like the reason you've probably seen the
15:59content is because
16:01as one brand, you could only have so
16:04much budget and so much creative content
16:07to create yourself.
16:09If you expand that out into a network of
16:12sales people and marketing people that
16:15are using these triggers to communicate
16:17that out for you, now all of a sudden
16:19you're amplifying and multiplying your
16:21message by tens of thousands fold to
16:25what you're doing. So how are you
16:27effectively doing that? You know, in
16:29anything that you do, there's different
16:31ways to do it. It doesn't have to be
16:32creators. Like
16:33>> give me step by step. What did you do
16:35exactly? I understand that the moment
16:37you multiply it by 2500, it's going to
16:39go bonkers, right? Because you already
16:41have the winning formula that what is
16:43working, what's going viral, you're just
16:45going to give those as a sample things
16:46to your creators and be like, "Hey, use
16:48one of these. We know it works. Just go
16:50crazy."
16:51>> And when it goes viral, you spend ads
16:52behind it, right? So, and then it keeps
16:55>> Yeah. Yeah. So, that part like just tell
16:56me everything. Okay. So, you get you get
16:582500 creators at once. How did you
17:00design this? Who runs this? Who what was
17:03the first step? like I want to know
17:05everything. So, our head of growth,
17:07Jonathan, um there's different creator
17:10networks that you they're all pretty
17:12small, but there are different creator
17:13networks um and affiliate networks that
17:15turned into creator networks. Like, it's
17:17not necessarily a new idea, right? You
17:19have influencer programs and things like
17:21that, but if you incentivize those
17:25influencers to be able to make money on
17:27every single sale you're doing, but we
17:29give you the playbook on how to do it
17:31because we know it's going to go viral.
17:33Then it's easy to replicate it across
17:36the board. So through that process, we
17:38were already going viral, so it was easy
17:39to get creators in and you have a
17:40Discord and all the creators are
17:43talking.
17:43>> So what did you do? How did you get
17:44those creators in and did you pay them
17:46up front? Did you ask them to join your
17:48affiliate program? Like what was it?
17:50>> So if you could create the most
17:53effective referral program in the world,
17:57how would you do that? And that's our
17:58next step.
17:59>> Yeah.
17:59>> That we're thinking of in the company.
18:01>> Okay.
18:01>> But let me take a step back. Let's start
18:03with
18:03>> Yeah. uh and the US market and any
18:06social media platform by the way right
18:08at the end of the day that where you
18:09could track sales
18:12>> you could tap into any influencer
18:14network or creator network that exists
18:16now for us those things didn't really
18:18exist so we had to grab people from
18:20influencer networks there were already
18:22small creator programs so we grabbed
18:23from like 10 different creator programs
18:24to create our initial army
18:28start a channel where they're all
18:29talking to each other that you could
18:31feed them content from and this is
18:33something Funny enough that I learned
18:34from the NFT days. Did you ever do NFTs?
18:37>> Yeah. Yeah. I lost tons of money in
18:39that.
18:39>> Yeah. Me, too. Me, too. You and me,
18:40brother.
18:43>> Big trauma back.
18:44>> Remember you were in a Discord?
18:45>> Yeah.
18:46>> And you're like,
18:46>> I'm just waiting for the drop.
18:48>> They're waiting for the drop. GM. GM.
18:49And then the second a drop happens,
18:51everyone's talking about it. Same
18:53psychology. How are you creating a
18:55community of people that are waiting for
18:59the next viral hook or something to drop
19:01or the next product or you know you're
19:02constantly feeding them content but
19:05they're all talking to each other. So
19:06now the creator is like hey this worked
19:08for me this you're creating a flywheel
19:11within its own community of creators
19:14that is figuring out it's almost like
19:16machine learning. They're figuring out
19:18on their own what hooks are working and
19:20what's not. You just have to feed them
19:22the right content to be able to do so.
19:24For us, we had Joe Rogan talking about
19:27us already, Shark Tank, Kim Kardashian
19:30posting. Now, we have all these things
19:32from before, the first 5 years that we
19:34fed into this platform. And if you're a
19:36new budding entrepreneur, you don't need
19:38those things, but you have the
19:39psychological triggers. If you have the
19:41initial seed of virality that you can
19:44feed into people and you know it works
19:46cuz you test it yourself,
19:49have them try it and have them blast it
19:51out and if it works, you put ads behind
19:53it because you know that that hook that
19:55whatever creator did is working. Now
19:58that creator goes and it's like, "Hey
19:59guys, I just made $100,000 off this one
20:02video. You guys should try a variation
20:04of this video." All these people are
20:07creating variations. Sometimes they're a
20:08little bit different and then that
20:10little bit different starts working
20:11also. So now they take that little bit
20:13different thing and the next creator
20:15starts building off that and the next
20:16builder. Do you see how it starts all
20:18linking together,
20:19>> right? And then the biggest,
20:23you know, the biggest thing you have to
20:24do now as a person that runs that
20:27affiliate channel is how do you
20:29consistently keep them motivated? So now
20:31we have incentive programs. Do you have
20:33a chance to win an iPad if you hit this
20:35GMV gross merchandise value? you could
20:38uh win a trip to Miami with all the
20:40other creators. Like we would set up
20:41parties. We would rent a house and set
20:43up parties where like hundred of the top
20:45creators all get to hang out with each
20:47other and everything is paid for. You
20:48know, now it turns into this community
20:51of people that are talking. They love
20:53your product. They're angant to your
20:54product and they're selling selling
20:56selling and they're making money off
20:57you. It's like a self-replicating
21:01platform.
21:02>> Intent. You don't need to do that at
21:032500 creators, but you could do it in
21:05your own backyard with your own
21:07community, in your own village, your own
21:09city, your own town, whatever it is.
21:13How can you get 10 people to love your
21:16product and those 10 people are at least
21:18creating enough content and telling
21:19enough people that they're referring
21:21that product more and more and more?
21:25Virality comes from the word viral. In
21:27the same way, how do you allow a message
21:29to spread effectively?
21:31>> Nice. Nice. What did you do exactly? So
21:34you were in Tik Tok. Yep.
21:36>> And then how did you get these creators?
21:38Did you DM them? Did you
21:40>> like build a community? What was what
21:42exactly did you do? You and your head of
21:44growth.
21:44>> So Tik Tok or Tik Tok shop already had a
21:48creator sampling program that a lot of
21:50people weren't using. So the first bit
21:53was and it's a little bit different now.
21:56So I'll I'll frame it in two ways. When
21:58we first started, we were sampling out
22:00to the creators that existed into our
22:02platform. And then once they got the
22:04samples and we were communicating with
22:06them, we brought them into our own
22:08communication platform, our own Discord,
22:10so we could control the narrative on
22:11things. And then those creators, if they
22:15were, it goes from like L1 to L7, like
22:17different levels, right?
22:18>> How many were them? How many did you get
22:20them on your Discord?
22:21>> I mean, at the beginning, it was only
22:22like 100 or like 200. It's not that
22:24many.
22:24>> And how many levels were there in 200
22:26creators? So level one to level seven
22:28and level seven you get the highest
22:30commission but everything in life I
22:32would say is about incentives. How are
22:35you incentivizing people effectively?
22:37Right?
22:38>> So give me level seven levels of your
22:40commission.
22:41>> So really like level one to level three
22:44I would say well I'll just give you
22:45three layers of of commissions because
22:47it gets a little bit more nuanced.
22:50>> Level one you create videos for us and
22:52you'll get 10% commission you know on
22:54sales you make. But how do you know that
22:56the sales coming directly from that
22:59link?
22:59>> Because it's associated on Tik Tok at
23:01least is associated with their product
23:03card.
23:04>> Okay.
23:04>> And their creator profile.
23:07>> Uh Meta has the same thing. Meta has
23:10like creator uh performance channels.
23:12Now, if you're doing referrals, you have
23:14like referral links, you know. So,
23:16there's a product card that people could
23:17click into and if they make a sale, they
23:19make 10% off that sale. If they hit a
23:21certain GMV, let's say they do $500 in
23:23sale, we'll give them a bonus and then
23:26they can move up to level two.
23:28>> At level two, now you're operating on a
23:30retainer. We'll pay you $500 a month and
23:33then we'll give you 12% commission. So
23:36now you're motivated as a level one
23:38creator to be like, all I need to do is
23:40hit $500 in GMV. I'm going to make as
23:43much videos as possible that work until
23:45I hit that GMV value. Level two, now you
23:48have to hit $25,000 in GMV, but you're
23:51getting paid at least $500, so you're
23:53motivated. But if you don't hit that GMV
23:55within a certain time frame, you drop
23:57back down to level one. So now it's a
23:59game. And then level three, we're paying
24:01you.
24:01>> And in in $500, how many videos do they
24:04have to pro put out? So typic in the
24:08past it wasn't like we we didn't have
24:11any goals like because people were so
24:12incentivized but now we have like you
24:14have to at least create four videos per
24:16week minimum. They have to be different
24:18hooks and um you have to make at least
24:21this GMV.
24:22>> Okay.
24:22>> Yeah. Uh that's how it is now.
24:24>> And what's the GMV now?
24:26>> So
24:26>> in level two and level one as well.
24:28>> So level one let's say $500. This could
24:30be different for different products by
24:32the way but for us it was pretty low. It
24:34was like $500 to get to level two.
24:37>> Okay. $500 per month.
24:39>> Per month.
24:40>> Okay. That's
24:40>> Oh, no. Not even not even per month. It
24:42was like hitting the $500 mark threshold
24:44like when you're selling our product.
24:45>> Okay. From from beginning till the time
24:47like the moment you hit Oh, interesting.
24:50>> And then and then now it's time based
24:52once you start getting to higher levels
24:53by the way.
24:54>> Okay. So then in level two you have to
24:57continue to keep making how much for you
24:59to get like $500 a month. between level
25:01one, level two, level three, there's
25:03basically a breakout that's similar to
25:05like $500 or like $2,000 or like
25:08whatever that GV is, right? But it's
25:10similar commission level,
25:11>> but you get a little bit more perks as
25:14you go up.
25:14>> Okay. And what's in level three? So in
25:16level two, you get $500 and 12%
25:18commission.
25:19>> Uh yeah, so 12 15 I say these numbers
25:22for myself, but it could be anything
25:24depending on what your margins are. So
25:27level the psychology is what matters
25:29right with the creators level four to
25:32level five like level three level four
25:34level five like whatever that second
25:36tier is now they get a retainer so
25:39they're motivated because they get paid
25:42no matter what.
25:43>> But then on top of the payment they have
25:46a higher commission rate. So from
25:48whatever 5% 10% 10% now you're going to
25:5215%. You're making more money and you're
25:54getting paid. So now you're motivated to
25:56be like, "Dude, this is like a real job
25:58and I get paid even more."
25:59>> Yeah.
26:00>> Level three, we're paying you $3,000 a
26:03month. That's a real job.
26:06>> That's what it was. That's crazy.
26:08>> You have to make these number of videos,
26:09but if you don't hit your goals within a
26:10month, that's when time comes into play
26:12cuz we're paying you, but if you don't
26:14hit these goals within a month or a
26:15quarter, like in the first 3 months, you
26:18drop back down.
26:19>> And then if you're not hitting those
26:19goals, you drop back down again.
26:21>> So there's two layers that are tugging
26:22at you. It's like I have a fear of
26:25losing my position in the rankings.
26:28Also, you start becoming like a
26:30celebrity. By the way, like in the
26:32creator community, you can imagine if
26:33you're a level seven.
26:34>> Yeah, right.
26:34>> Yeah.
26:35>> I'm making all this like our top
26:37creators made made like $150,000 in a
26:40month.
26:40>> No way.
26:42>> That's been easy. Yeah.
26:44>> He was making
26:45>> That's like a tech guy's job in one
26:47month. That's a CEO salary.
26:51So he's a celebrity obviously, right?
26:53And in the creator community he's like,
26:54"Oh, Espanzie, like that's the guy that
26:56made that's making all this money on
26:57Neurogum, which is very helpful to us
27:00now." He was like, "I can make that much
27:02money selling Neurogum. Like we're going
27:03to join Neurogum even as like a level
27:05one person cuz I can work my way up."
27:07>> So
27:08>> to reframe it again, how are you
27:11creating enough incentive structures
27:13with your margin structure, your
27:14finances, everything? And again, the
27:16commission, if you're selling a $300
27:18product, you're not giving 10%
27:20commission. you're giving 5% commission,
27:22right? We're selling a $30 product, so
27:25whatever it is, right? But
27:27>> but you can sell way more of our product
27:29than a $300 product.
27:32Same way, how are you building the right
27:34incentive structure from level one who
27:36sees the level seven people making all
27:38this money? And it's like, oh, I just
27:40need to keep making videos, keep making
27:41videos until I hit $500 GMV. Now I move
27:44up a level. Now I'm getting paid. I keep
27:47making more level seven. And then the
27:49level seven people want to stay on top.
27:51>> Yeah. So that's cutthroat competition.
27:53Once you get level seven, what's the
27:55drop off? I don't I don't think there'll
27:57be like a big drop off.
27:59>> Uh you know, they need to keep making
28:01the videos and you keep making the
28:02hooks, but you keep the creators on
28:06because there needs to there's still a
28:07GMV amount that they need to make. It's
28:09just much much higher.
28:10>> Yeah.
28:11>> So if you're not making, you know, I
28:13think for us now it's like $10,000 GMV.
28:15It's still not that crazy, but if you're
28:17not making a certain GMV amount, you
28:19drop down
28:20>> a level. So, you're constantly fighting
28:22for positions. But in that same vein, if
28:25you're a level five to level seven
28:26creator, we're inviting you to that
28:28house in Miami. You know, we're giving
28:30you like cool gifts. You're giving you
28:33bonuses on top of like GMV goals you hit
28:35in specific time periods. Like, there's
28:38different ways that like we have like a
28:41Christmas launcher for example. So from
28:44uh this time period to this time period
28:46for Black Friday, if you hit this GMV
28:49goal, we give you an extra thousand
28:50dollars.
28:52>> So how you creating the right incentives
28:55as you scale to make sure people are
28:58creating product training videos for
28:59you.
29:00>> So how do you incentivize energy drinks?
29:02Because that's I would assume it's not
29:03like a D2C product. It's more like a
29:06retail product. Those are all the
29:07retainer creators
29:09because it's going into retail, but they
29:12have incentive structures in the back.
29:14So, similar to us cuz we're now more and
29:15more in retail.
29:16>> Mhm.
29:17>> What are the incentive structures and
29:19pushes to push people into Walmart or
29:21Costco or CVS or Whole Foods, wherever
29:24it is, right?
29:26It's still the same psychology and still
29:28the same foundation, but you are still
29:30paying these creators an L7 creator or
29:33whatever it is to talk about your
29:36product. And one new thing we're doing
29:38right now, if you find a top product,
29:42try to see if you can just get your
29:43product alongside that top product. If
29:45someone's talking about Bloom, sample
29:48Neurogum to them also, so that Neurogum
29:50just shows up in their video as well.
29:53You know, it's cuz it's probably similar
29:55audiences.
29:56>> Yeah.
29:57>> But they're getting the attention
29:58already. We have this great partnership
30:00with a company called Carpet. They uh do
30:02deodorants. They do $100 million just at
30:06Target.
30:07They realized having Neurogum in their
30:09ads as like a free offer brought their
30:13return on ad spend u well increased
30:16their return on ad spend significantly.
30:19So they've spent over $2 million on this
30:22ad that has Neurogum in it.
30:24>> So we just get all the benefits for them
30:27advertising our product because it
30:29benefited them.
30:30>> So Tik Tok is becoming interesting. Like
30:33all these channels are becoming so
30:34interesting where you could tap into
30:36other people. You just have to find the
30:38right places where you could get the
30:39right number of impressions to the right
30:41audience.
30:41>> This is super interesting. This I've
30:43never heard the partnership model.
30:45Explain. Tell me more about if somebody
30:46wants to tap on this. uh what do you do
30:49like you go to the to the brands which
30:51already super successful or like killing
30:53it or crushing it and how do you partner
30:55synergize and what's in it for them to
30:57put you on the shelf because you're a
30:59successful brand I'm talking about let's
31:00say I'm starting this new brand and then
31:03there is no incentive for me or there is
31:06no incentive for you to come partner
31:08with me right
31:09>> right so how do I convince you to put my
31:11products in your videos what's how do I
31:13explore partnerships
31:14>> I mean you have to start somewhere so a
31:16lot of you know when we're talking about
31:17how do you kick off a company, you get
31:19the awareness. So, K2O
31:22um the
31:24chief revenue officer at Mary Ruth,
31:27which was a top product.
31:28>> Mhm.
31:29>> Um great guy, left and start KTO with uh
31:34Kylie Kylie Jenner.
31:36>> Um
31:38Jay Hunter. Uh started with Kylie
31:40Jenner. That was his initial catalyst to
31:42get a really hard launch to be able to
31:45get other creators involved with him.
31:49>> Right? So what is that catalyst moment?
31:51Like if you're launching a product
31:54everything like a rocket needs fuel to
31:57launch off, you know, like a rocket
31:59that's sitting on the ground is useless.
32:00You still need to find that effective
32:03thing to get it going. And then in that
32:06moment where you're like launch is the
32:08most exciting part, you're taking off.
32:12You go find other brands. If that's your
32:14model, you go find other brands to
32:15partner with and start sampling to. You
32:18start looking at creators and you start
32:20creating like a really
32:22appetizing incentive program to get them
32:25involved. You have to find like the
32:27right moment. So like uh for us for
32:30example like three examples of big
32:32moments as a brand our size and then
32:34I'll go and talk about a new brand.
32:38We went back on Shark Tank twice, right?
32:40So we were the only brand in Shark Tank
32:42history to not get a deal the first time
32:43and go back on Shark Tank again. We knew
32:45that that was a really big moment. So we
32:47got all of our creators being like we're
32:50going back on Shark Tank. Now all of our
32:52creators are like what? Oo, this is a
32:53big moment. Everyone's going to be
32:54hearing about us. They tapped in. We
32:57built a campaign and pushed the product
32:59out then.
33:00>> So that's a big moment.
33:01>> Um
33:03we knew we're launching this new product
33:05sour.
33:05>> Yeah.
33:06>> So you know a few weeks ago I went in
33:08and spoke to like 500 creators or
33:10something being like we're launching
33:12sour. This is what the launch plan is.
33:14We're doing all these activations and
33:16we're giving incentives for the first
33:17week to push where you get an extra x
33:19amount of dollars if you push the sour
33:21product and you make sales. Now
33:23everyone's excited. That's part of like
33:25a launch strategy. So people get
33:28involved and jump right in and they go
33:30really really hard. And then again, how
33:32do you take that leverage? And then I
33:34guess for like a third thing,
33:37if you're entering into a retail store,
33:39we were entering into Costco. That was a
33:40really big thing. Costco is like the
33:42biggest retail, one of the biggest
33:43retailers in the world. How are we
33:45building incentive structures? We're
33:47paying people now, not even just
33:48retailers. If you talk about Costco in
33:51your video and you get a certain amount
33:52of views, we'll give you an extra $100.
33:55So now everyone's like, they're going to
33:58Costco, get an extra $100. Yeah. Well,
33:59of course.
34:00>> That is retainer plus the extra cost
34:02because that you can't track through
34:04affiliate links, right?
34:05>> Yeah. Exactly.
34:06>> Yeah. So they're not going to get
34:07commission, but they're going to they're
34:08on your retainer, so they're a
34:09community, so they'll do it.
34:10>> Exactly. And for us, it's like we were
34:13going to pay that amount for marketing
34:14anyways. These people talk about it. And
34:17depending on the level of creator you
34:18are, you know, or like a influencer you
34:21are, you obviously get more money or not
34:23like based on your reach.
34:25>> So for a new brand, what is that? You
34:29can't expect to make the greatest
34:31product in the world and think
34:34everyone's going to love it and know
34:36about it and learn about it right off
34:37the bat. You have to create some
34:39catalyst for people to know about your
34:42product. So, some of the more creative
34:45things I've seen with launch plans,
34:48obviously there's the celebrity launch
34:50plan. K2O did a great job um by getting
34:53Kylie Jenner obviously involved.
34:57>> I've seen other brands that would do a
34:59big launch at something like a CES like
35:03David Protein. Do you know David? Peter.
35:06Yeah.
35:06>> Yeah. So, his co-founder is an investor
35:08in us. Uh Jared at RX Bar, but um and
35:11they crushed it in the bar space, right?
35:13>> They killed it.
35:14>> Expo West.
35:17Genius, right? They didn't exhibit at
35:19Expo West because they were too small,
35:21but they rented a truck, like a massive
35:24like semi whatever. You know, one of
35:26those big trucks that had like a jacked
35:29cow on the side of it and all it did was
35:32just drive around the biggest CPG
35:35convention. It just drove around over
35:37and everyone was talking about it
35:39because they were just like what the
35:41what is that?
35:43>> And that is your community. You're not
35:45even there. So people are looking for
35:47you too cuz it's like oh what is that
35:48David Pro? They realize you're not even
35:51there so they go out and find you
35:52somewhere else. Genius. Genius. Genius.
35:56This is in Wow. I didn't know this. It's
35:57a freaking billboard that they're
35:59driving around to their community. All
36:00all the retailers are there talking
36:02about their new protein bar and then
36:05like they didn't even have to pay
36:07$50,000 for a booth. They took that
36:09$50,000 and they're like we're going to
36:10put advertising on the side of a truck
36:12instead that's just driving around for 3
36:14days straight.
36:15>> Nice. And this would be as like dirt
36:17price.
36:18>> Yeah. It's like it would have been the
36:21same price to get less impact.
36:22>> Yeah.
36:23>> And now they're doing this and then now
36:25obviously everyone's like, "Holy
36:27that's genius. I'm going to write about
36:29it." No, all these news articles are
36:30being written about it. People are
36:32talking about it.
36:33>> So what is that? Like whatever you're
36:35creating,
36:36>> you have to just be creative and think
36:38what is that thing that's different. You
36:40>> think differently, you know, Steve,
36:42think differently. How are you standing
36:44out
36:46>> outside the crowd?
36:47>> Do you want to do this with me? Think on
36:48the fly.
36:49>> Yeah, sure.
36:49>> Like, okay, like let's do let's do an
36:51experiment. So let's say if there's a
36:52new brand who's starting out, what can
36:54be this this genius random idea?
36:57>> Give me the brand. Give me a brand. Give
36:58me a product.
36:59>> Um, let's say everybody's starting
37:01supplement brands. Let's pick up
37:03supplement brand because that's like the
37:04tough category to get or coffee brand.
37:06You pick up which one.
37:08>> Okay, let's do supplement brand cuz
37:09everyone's doing supplements.
37:10>> Yeah.
37:10>> And what is it? What format is it? Is it
37:12a pill? Is it a liposomaal? Like what's
37:14the
37:14>> let's say it's a it's a magnesium
37:17supplement for better sleep.
37:18>> Magnesium supplement for better sleep.
37:20>> Yeah.
37:21>> So, one thing I actually saw and this is
37:23not a new idea, but maybe we could come
37:24up with some creative idea. Do you know
37:26what the bedrot challenge is?
37:28>> Bedrot?
37:29>> Yeah.
37:30>> No.
37:30>> So, it's how long you could just sleep
37:32in bed for? So, it's like a Mr. Beast
37:35style challenge that this company did. I
37:38forgot what the company was, but it was
37:40a challenge that they brought in like a
37:42hundred creators and the person that
37:45sleeps in bed the longest
37:48wins like $100,000,
37:52which is the most Mr. Beast thing, by
37:54the way. It's like sleep for as long as
37:56possible and win $100,000. But it's on
37:59Tik Tok live 24/7 the entire time and
38:04then on Twitch and all these other live
38:06streaming channels and YouTube and stuff
38:07too. So people would tune in to see what
38:12if people are sleeping or not. It's
38:15crazy. But it's a it's for this product
38:18that's all about how long can you sleep
38:20good sleep. I was like damn that is
38:23genius. Because all they did was just
38:25set up a room with like a bunch of beds
38:26and it's just people sleeping and people
38:28are
38:29>> and whoever gets up just gets
38:30eliminated.
38:31>> Yeah. If they need to go to the bathroom
38:32and get up, they're done.
38:34>> And even if they get up like can are
38:36they allowed to be just be awake and be
38:38on the bed.
38:39>> Yeah. Yeah.
38:40>> That is allowed.
38:40>> That's allowed.
38:41>> Okay.
38:41>> But there but then you can't be on your
38:43phone. You can't like So you start going
38:44crazy, right?
38:46>> So now there's a leaderboard of people,
38:48right? And it's like this person got
38:50eliminated and then maybe there's like
38:52alarms and stuff going off. I forgot
38:53what it was. Like every time someone got
38:55eliminated, there was like a big thing.
38:57So people are now tuning in to this
38:59thing about your product to see who's
39:01getting eliminated
39:04challenge.
39:04>> That's a good idea. That that can be
39:06like a
39:06>> It's hilarious.
39:08>> Yeah, it it is fun.
39:09>> It's like the new uh the grocery shop
39:11video, you know, and I went to visit the
39:13grocery store um when I was with Jimmy
39:15in North Carolina.
39:17Dude, he set up this entire grocery
39:20store and it was like last like it was
39:23something like you eat the entire
39:25grocery store and then you get to leave.
39:26Yeah. And you win this money. I mean
39:29like those people weren't getting paid
39:31to be there every single day. They got
39:34paid after they won the challenge and
39:36they left. And of course it's Jimmy so
39:38he made it interesting the whole way
39:40through and they gave them incentives
39:41and things like that for the video. But
39:43anyone can do that. M nice.
39:46>> It could even be yourself, you know.
39:48It's like
39:48>> Do you think that if somebody does
39:50something like this, they would
39:52automatically be considered as not
39:54serious brand?
39:57>> Because that's someone who wants to
39:59associate themselves with sleep and
40:01wants to be serious, wants to be seen as
40:03this guy or this brand which is like
40:06optimize your sleep, get better sleep,
40:08declutter your mind, whatever, whatever,
40:09whatever. And then I do this funny Mr. B
40:12style video. Will it dilute my brand
40:16preposition and not be a and will I not
40:19be able to target the right kind of
40:20audience who I want to reach?
40:22>> It I mean obviously it depends on your
40:23audience but is feastable not a real
40:25brand because Mr. beast is advertising
40:28it. You know, like obviously he has
40:30other videos that are talking about the
40:31child labor and everything.
40:35Everything is a funnel, right? People
40:36have heard about the funnel in business.
40:39The first layer has to be the awareness,
40:43the hook. How are you getting people in?
40:45And of course, with something like this,
40:47yeah, it might be gimmicky, but you're
40:49getting an awareness. There could be
40:50something a little bit more serious.
40:51Like other ways people do it is like
40:53Andrew Hooverman, who you've had on your
40:55podcast.
40:56people respect him. He's a doctor that
40:59of opthalmology, you know, whatever it
41:02is at Stanford and has all these
41:03different people.
41:05>> Lament, the drink uh the stick pack
41:08brand
41:10>> got their start because they tapped into
41:12Andrew Hooverman's audience and then it
41:15built like a ser so that was the
41:16awareness. They got a doctor that they
41:18last
41:19>> but it's expensive now, right?
41:22>> Dude, do you know what's not expensive
41:23that we do? dentists. So, we work with a
41:27company called PDS. They're the largest
41:29dental clinic in the United States and
41:31we're like, you know what's really good
41:33for your teeth? Gum with xylitol, no
41:36sugar.
41:36>> But are they allowed to promote?
41:37>> Yeah. We're in every single one of you
41:40know how you get a little gift bag after
41:42you with a toothbrush and all that like
41:44boring stuff. They're like, we want to
41:45make this more fun.
41:47We did a partnership with PDS and now
41:50every single person that leaves their
41:52dental clinic if they drink coffee gets
41:54neurogum instead. It's like oh coffee
41:56stains your teeth.
41:58You want energy you should chew this.
42:01>> So is there
42:03all that cost was the cost of our
42:05product.
42:08>> You give them to for free and then they
42:10just distribute it
42:11>> and that's awareness also.
42:12>> Yeah.
42:12>> Right. So there you could obviously pay
42:16someone like a Hoover man and obviously
42:18you could pay with equity and stuff too
42:19if you're a startup but um you could pay
42:24an influencer that is very expensive or
42:27you could tap into networks that are
42:29traditional like dentists aren't getting
42:31paid influencer
42:34but you could tap into networks like
42:36that also. There's always an
42:37opportunity. So let's go back to your
42:39magnesium sleep thing. You know what? If
42:42like
42:44I mean there's a bunch of mattress
42:45companies out there. What if you like
42:48partner with a mattress company and be
42:49like, "Hey, we're giving you this
42:52product for free." And we actually did
42:53this with a pillow company with our
42:54sleep product where it was every single
42:57person that buys a pillow gets a free
42:59neurosleep.
43:01And so they're going to go to sleep
43:03anyways. They see this product that
43:04helps them with sleep. It's obvious.
43:07>> There's so many ways you can skin it.
43:10And you got to be creative and if you're
43:12not dude delivery service is huge in
43:15India right imagine I don't know if they
43:18talk to each other but that is a job
43:20where you have to constantly be on the
43:22go and you know the wages on that are
43:24not like these guys are getting paid
43:26$150,000 a month
43:28>> but those are people that are
43:29interacting with other people every
43:31single day.
43:32>> Yeah. I was, you know, I had this idea
43:35like that I was hinting at earlier, but
43:37what if there is a referral program
43:39built into this driver community where
43:43you give them somehow like there's
43:45probably hubs where like all them are
43:47hanging out waiting for their next order
43:48to come in. Like I see it here like you
43:50know you see these lines of cars waiting
43:52to pick up food. What if you go and
43:54sample Neurogum to every single one of
43:56those people and you're like, "Hey,
43:59go sample like 25 of these. I'll give
44:01you 100 bucks for the next 25 orders.
44:05Next 25 coffee orders, give them
44:08Neurogum instead. Now that community
44:11gets an alternative,
44:12>> it's not allowed that the brands that
44:15they work with, they don't allow them to
44:17do it.
44:17>> They don't.
44:18>> Yeah, they don't.
44:19>> That's That's why it was an idea. That's
44:20a good idea. I didn't look into it. I
44:22didn't look into it.
44:22>> That's a good idea
44:23>> cuz I was just like, damn. Like you
44:25could tap into them. They're interacting
44:27with you know exactly what they're
44:29ordering. If they're ordering a coffee
44:30or if it's night time and they're can't
44:32sleep, it's like dude.
44:33>> Oh, sleep.
44:34>> Oh my god. Perfect. What about if you
44:36give them your product? It's like, hey,
44:37by the way, this is free with your
44:39delivery.
44:40>> Yeah.
44:40>> Damn.
44:41>> That you can't do. You can do that with
44:43delivery platforms as an advertising
44:45tool, but that's expensive.
44:46>> Yeah, but you know, you can break the
44:48rules a little bit.
44:49>> I mean,
44:50>> yeah,
44:51>> you're allowed. Everyone's allowed to
44:52break the rules.
44:53>> Everyone's allowed until you get caught.
44:54Until you get caught. And there's no
44:56home.
44:56>> Yeah. Yeah. But usually the first time
44:57you get caught is just a slap on the
44:59wrist. Yeah.
45:00>> So some different ideas. I was like, "Oh
45:02man, like how do you just tap into these
45:05spaces?"
45:06>> Yeah. Have you heard I don't know who
45:08who was this entrepreneur in US. I saw
45:10this clip like years ago. I think this
45:11is 2020 or something. The Shark Tank
45:14person and that guy said like
45:18if in the beginning you're breaking some
45:20rules which is not which is not harming
45:22people but harming other big giant
45:24businesses, it's okay.
45:25>> Yeah.
45:27I was like I was like
45:28>> I think everyone agrees with that
45:30>> publicly but it's okay
45:32>> everyone agrees with that
45:36>> true
45:37>> like legally it's the wrong thing to do
45:39but
45:40>> you have to break rules you have to
45:41break rules like that's not not again
45:45don't hurt people
45:46>> as long as you're not harming people but
45:48harming a large joint to take out like
45:50just a percentage of their business I
45:52think that should be
45:53>> even what David did that was like He
45:56broke the rule.
45:57>> What did he do?
45:58>> Well, the rule he broke by driving a
45:59truck around this convention is he
46:01didn't pay for the convention,
46:04>> but he still advertised at it. It's so
46:06funny.
46:07>> True. True. Okay. You know, two things
46:10you said on the on the whole creator
46:12influencer kind of thing. Do you get
46:14these influencers who are already
46:16established and big or do you find these
46:18new creators to do it? What do you do?
46:21So what's really interesting is micro
46:22influencers I think are more and more
46:25popular now. Yeah. Because so if you
46:27asked me this question five years ago it
46:29would have been a different answer. Five
46:30years ago you get a really big
46:31influencer like a Kim Kardashian and
46:33everyone wants to be like Kim Kardashian
46:35so they like tap they Yeah. The queen
46:38bee factor. Exactly.
46:40>> Now the trust of big influencers have
46:43diminished significantly because of
46:45brand deals but and also the rise of Tik
46:47Tok and creators.
46:49If you get a creator that has not even a
46:53creator, if you get someone that has
46:54like, let's say, a thousand followers,
46:56that person with a thousand followers,
46:58all thousand followers
47:00probably knows this person really,
47:03really well and vice versa. So, if
47:05they're talking about a product in a
47:07genuine way, the chances of you getting
47:10a higher conversion rate on a,000
47:12followers versus a very low conversion
47:14rate, even if they have 10,000
47:15followers, for the price is much more
47:19effective.
47:19>> Yeah.
47:20>> You pay someone that has, let's say,
47:21100,000 followers and has a 0.1%
47:25conversion rate, but you pay them
47:26$100,000, right?
47:29You just paid that person with a
47:31thousand followers probably like a 250
47:34bucks and now they get you have half
47:36their follow 500 followers like
47:38following your product
47:41at economy of scale that's so much more
47:43impactful and they like one of the
47:45quotes we use in our company is make
47:47your backyard look pretty before you
47:48take on make the world look pretty. How
47:51do you make that backyard for that
47:52audience look pretty in these different
47:54areas before making the world trying to
47:57take over the world in one big fellow
47:59swoop?
48:00>> Interesting. So you would say like only
48:01do the small ones.
48:04>> I think it's becoming much more
48:05costefficient and more effective.
48:07>> And when you when you say small ones, do
48:10you say under 5,000, under,000, under
48:1310,000 or just complete new people who
48:16maybe potentially can become the whole
48:18creator from scratch for your brand?
48:20because I've seen three brands do that.
48:22>> It could be I think it could be
48:23anything. I mean, yeah, I I I it's worth
48:26sometimes investing into people, you
48:29know, and you know, I think Element got
48:32pretty lucky with Andrew Hooverman,
48:34frankly, because precoid Andrew was
48:37making these podcasts, but he wasn't
48:40like big like he he became big in the
48:42last 5 years, right? And so for Element
48:46to be tapped into a early creator that
48:48fit their vision and their values which
48:49is as a company that's the most
48:52important thing. What is your vision and
48:53your values that you lay out? Then you
48:56know even if they're small who to reach
48:58out to and be like this person shares my
49:02visions and values the people that
49:04listen to him probably do too. So
49:07there's a direct connection down the
49:09line and then you can invest it into a
49:10creator whatever whoever it is a podcast
49:12creator what that will grow with you and
49:15then obviously find success together. On
49:19the flip side if there are smaller
49:22creators that you are tapping into let's
49:25go with your sleep example and let's
49:28break it down a little bit more. Um
49:30what's a what's an age group that has
49:32bad sleep?
49:34>> 30 and above.
49:35>> 30 and above. Why do they have bad
49:36sleep?
49:38>> Insane amount of stress. Uh not being
49:41able to cope up with work.
49:43>> What kind of work?
49:44>> Relationships. Just average uh every day
49:47they go to office and then come back and
49:49they're tired and then
49:50>> so let's
49:51>> annoyed.
49:51>> Let's say it's a
49:53>> I'm making this up, right? I don't know
49:55anything about
49:56>> it's a a SAS company.
49:57>> H
49:58>> because the SAS apocalypse is happening.
50:00>> You're afraid about your job. So you
50:02can't sleep.
50:03>> Like it jobs. uh as IT jobs and it's
50:06very stressful because your job might be
50:08on the line
50:10going back to the psychological triggers
50:12that's an insecurity about your job is
50:15that an insecurity about productivity at
50:17your job because you feel like you can't
50:19do or is it I want to be productive
50:22outside of work so that I could start my
50:24own thing because I think I have a
50:26better opportunity as a backup plan and
50:28to be able to do that I need to have
50:29good sleep whatever it is
50:32>> what is that through line that you're
50:33creating in the audience you're tapping
50:34into and those values that you're
50:36sharing initially. And again, I you
50:39know, I'm going to repeat the book's
50:41name, crossing the chasm, but who is
50:43that first tiny audience that is so tied
50:48on to your pain points before you go on
50:50cross the chasm into the next audience,
50:52next audience, next audience.
50:55If you're looking at a product and if
50:57you're looking at creators or if you're
50:58looking at um an audience that you can
51:01link into, exact same thing. What are
51:03the pain points that you're sharing with
51:05this person that your values and
51:07everything align with? And how do you
51:08tap into that? And then you if that guy
51:12works in SAS, I bet you 20% of the
51:15people that follow him on his Instagram
51:16probably also work in SAS. They probably
51:18work with him.
51:20>> No, but if he loves the product and he's
51:22a influencer at his office,
51:25>> you just got 20% of his company hooked
51:27on your product also.
51:29>> True.
51:30>> Now do that again at the next place.
51:31Next place. and then company after
51:33company after company.
51:34>> Yeah. Or community after community,
51:36whatever it is.
51:37>> Interesting. You know, you said
51:39something I sort of disagree with. You
51:41said the large influencer doesn't work
51:43as much as the micro ones.
51:47>> I slightly disagree based on all the
51:49data and all the entrepreneurs that I
51:50talked to, what I've seen. I think the
51:52super large one works and the super
51:55small ones. The big and the mid ones are
51:57not working.
51:57>> I agree. You're right. The super big
52:00ones have enough of a presence that it's
52:04an impact.
52:04>> Yes.
52:05>> Because they're so big. Yes. Right.
52:07>> But Kim So I'll use Kim Kardashian as an
52:10example.
52:10>> Yeah. And also like I was the super
52:13Yeah. Go ahead. Actually complete it and
52:14then I'll tell you the thought.
52:15>> Okay.
52:15>> Yeah. Yeah. Kim Kardashian. Yeah. Go
52:17ahead.
52:17>> There's a certain type of influencer and
52:20how they talk about your product though
52:21also, right? Kim Kardashian posted about
52:24a product on her stories and we're just
52:26like love this you know like what
52:28>> we did some sales but it wasn't crazy
52:32>> but if Kim Kardashian is wearing skims
52:35to a few
52:36>> yeah it just so I was coming to exactly
52:38that so the super large ones they
52:41realize and I'm talking super large ones
52:42mean in any and every category if you're
52:46talking to the top five people so let's
52:48say if it's podcast and top five
52:50podcasters in the world or if It's
52:53models and top five models or athletes
52:55and top five athletes. So just like top
52:56five people of like it's a comedian only
52:58the top five comedians.
53:00>> When you talk to these people if they
53:02post once probably it won't work. But if
53:04you get them for an advocacy this works
53:06much better than anything else. They one
53:09large person like let's say Kim
53:11Kardashian with skills
53:13>> and if she's advocating that for next 6
53:15months it's way more powerful than your
53:17500 creators.
53:19>> 100% agree with that. I mean in no world
53:22is is a small creator going to be a Kim
53:24Kardashian.
53:25>> Exactly. So like small 100 creators are
53:27not going to be competing with the So
53:29the super large ones work but they work
53:31only when you work in an advocacy level.
53:33Yes.
53:33>> Where they are like you
53:36>> because it's difficult for me to believe
53:37that Kim Kardashian today just like just
53:40posted about neuro so she consumes it.
53:42But if I see this on an everyday basis
53:44randomly and even she was not promoting
53:46and I see her and then she's giving it
53:48to Kendall and then Kylie and then
53:50probably Lewis Hamilton is also and I
53:51was like holy like this
53:54>> this is a family thing.
53:56>> They really like it.
53:57>> They really like it and then like
53:59there'll be like millions like me who
54:01would go and just go eat it.
54:02>> So that's a really good point though
54:03because if you are a starting
54:05entrepreneur you can't get a Kim
54:06Kardashian.
54:06>> Yeah.
54:07>> But you could probably get someone
54:08adjacent to a Kim Kardashian which is
54:10what we did. We got David Grutman, um,
54:12who's one of the biggest, he is the
54:14biggest promoter and in Nightlife in
54:18Miami, right? A massive guy and really
54:21good friends with Kim and shared
54:23Neurogum with Kim.
54:24>> So now David's talking about it. Kim's
54:26talking about it.
54:27>> If you're following David, you probably
54:29follow Kim,
54:30>> right? If you're following Kim, you
54:31probably follow Kylie and you probably
54:32follow Lewis Hamilton. And so we work
54:35with F1. So we work with Yuki Tonot from
54:38F1.
54:40there's an adjacency between now F1, Kim
54:42Kardashian, David Grutman, how are you
54:44creating the web of people because now
54:47you're seeing it over and over again to
54:48your point and being like, "Oh,
54:50something's up, right?" But if you're a
54:54small startup just starting out,
54:59I guess where do you start? Like I do
55:02agree that it's a complete waste of time
55:04to go in this like middle section of
55:07kind of big influencers maybe like
55:09whatever like 2 million followers right
55:12>> but he could either make a really big
55:15splash with like a Mr. Beast person if
55:18there's an agency
55:18>> like Andrew Huberman type
55:20>> Andrew Hubman but the only caveat I
55:22would say to that is to your point
55:26who else is connected to that Andrew
55:29Hooverman. So it does feel like, oh, I'm
55:32hearing this over and over again within
55:34my network.
55:35>> Yeah. Yeah. There has to be some level
55:37of trickle down effect
55:40>> so that you it's more believable.
55:42>> What's crazy is like I mean I see these
55:44people there, you know, they hail Mary
55:48into one big activation. They'll pay
55:50like $5 million. Like the last $5
55:53million they have to be like, Kim
55:54Kardashian, make one post about us. You
55:57know, it's like of course that's not
55:59going to work.
55:59>> Yeah.
56:01>> You know, like what? So you business
56:04takes a little bit more thought in that
56:06regard where Yeah. how what are all the
56:10connecting factors from your product,
56:12your values, the people you work with,
56:14the people they work with for it to all
56:17come together? M
56:18>> you know I was speaking to one of the
56:20tech giant uh CEO and I was asking that
56:24person like why do you in today's world
56:27still get like these large Hollywood or
56:29Bollywood stars to promote your stuff
56:31because it just makes no sense because I
56:34would think that there are no just there
56:37are no conversions like like I don't
56:39think last time you you saw like a Tom
56:41Cruz selling something and then you
56:43bought it like right like you don't I
56:46was like why do you still need them then
56:48Because every airport you go to, every
56:50driveway you get, there is some big star
56:52with like some big perfume or like some
56:54big
56:54>> Yeah. I was who is buying Johnny Depp's
56:56per cologne.
56:58>> Exactly.
57:00So I asked that person like why do you
57:02still do it? Because they're very big on
57:03influencer. They're very big on micro
57:04communities and they're big on these
57:06large in every country they have this
57:08large star, right?
57:10and he said something very interesting
57:13to me and since then I don't know if it
57:15really works or not but I think it makes
57:17sense. He's like
57:20if you get a big star and let's say you
57:24spend like $5 million to get them and if
57:26you only have $5 million and you get
57:28them, it's never going to work out.
57:29>> Mhm.
57:30>> So you need to get them for $5 million
57:32and then you need another $5 million to
57:34make a noise that you got them and then
57:37you get the results. I don't see.
57:39>> So, this is what Celsius did. This is
57:41probably secret information, but
57:42whatever. You like secrets.
57:44>> I love it. This podcast um Celsius would
57:47spend 4x the amount that the influencer
57:51cost to activate that influencer.
57:55>> So, exactly to that point, you get a
57:57Lewis Hamilton for let's say like
57:58whatever $2 million, they would spend $8
58:01million on F1 sponsorship, Lewis
58:04Hamilton marketing, like advert,
58:07whatever it is. So yeah, makes you h you
58:12>> you just partnering with Lewis Hamilton.
58:16>> Yeah. People aren't going to be like,
58:17oh, like unless you're a super fan,
58:20>> which is probably still very small. Like
58:24>> you need to make sure everyone knows
58:25about the fact.
58:28>> Okay. There was another thing you said.
58:30You build this community of all these
58:32people all all the creators they come on
58:35the discord and then they stay in your
58:37community and all of that. How do you
58:38build a community? How do you keep them
58:40incentivized enough? Because money for
58:42sure is not the only thing. You have to
58:45create a feeling that this is their
58:47brand and they love you.
58:49>> So how do you create that? What are the
58:50things that you do in a community? What
58:52are the essent essential things that you
58:54create with your people? That is the
58:56power of brand and a lot of people
59:00forego brand just for transactional
59:03things. So like you know I'm trying to
59:06think of like companies that um existed
59:08in like the last 10 years that were big
59:10but they didn't build the brand
59:11component to it. Like you could think
59:13about uh you walk down a supplement
59:15aisle at CVS, you see all those uh
59:18supplements that sell B6 and B12 and it
59:21has some value, but there's nothing like
59:23a feelingwise associated behind it.
59:26>> Yeah. For us, here's an example of
59:28something we did 2 weeks ago for our
59:30sour launch. We rented out an entire
59:33back area of a go-kart space and we
59:37invited 50 influencers to come go-kart
59:39racing with us because it's something
59:41that's on the go. You know, you have to
59:43be focused while you're driving. And
59:44then all those people, by the way, we
59:48didn't pay them to come. You know, it's
59:49just a fun little event,
59:51>> but they sure as hell told everyone else
59:54about how cool this event was.
59:56And if you are and we target college
59:59campuses and things like that as well
1:00:01because there's a perfect product for
1:00:02college students.
1:00:04If you are tapping in and providing
1:00:07value outside of the product in terms of
1:00:11a social factor, a cool factor, um
1:00:15obviously a benefit factor for school
1:00:17and performance, then
1:00:20you have to make sure that your brand is
1:00:23conveying that from an approachability
1:00:27level. like I feel like I'm a part of
1:00:29this brand because
1:00:32whatever the way they present themselves
1:00:34and you know one of the things I say uh
1:00:37to the team a lot and to other people
1:00:39and I'll say to my son once he's old
1:00:41enough is there's this goes for I think
1:00:45human beings in general
1:00:48like what are what are the factors that
1:00:50make you trust someone that makes you
1:00:51want to follow them they have values
1:00:54that are crystal clear like you know
1:00:56exactly what their values
1:00:58And then uh uh damn, how do I say this
1:01:01in a way? Um and then they have I'm just
1:01:04I'm just going to say it the way it's in
1:01:06my head. Okay. Like and as a as a man,
1:01:08okay, like if I think about like if I
1:01:10want my boy to be a man, what are his
1:01:12values? And does he have the balls to
1:01:14stand behind his values?
1:01:17>> That's what being a man is.
1:01:18>> Yeah. Am I and that's what being a
1:01:20leader is or that's what being whatever
1:01:22the equivalent for a woman is you know
1:01:24like a a female leader is like what are
1:01:27your values and you stand behind those
1:01:29values
1:01:30>> but how do you create the that feeling
1:01:33>> in other people as well because you do
1:01:36that as a brand you have value system
1:01:38and you're standing behind it and you
1:01:40want to create this feeling and you
1:01:41stand by every word that you do
1:01:43>> right
1:01:44>> how do you create that feeling for the
1:01:46creator who's promoting you So, similar
1:01:48to this, those values, the way we
1:01:51construct our experiences, whether it's
1:01:54this K1 speed event that I'm going to
1:01:55use because it's the most recent one,
1:01:58>> go-karting, if you look at the pictures
1:02:00that we wrapped, the go-karts, we had
1:02:02the type of influencers that came are
1:02:04all very similar fitness style
1:02:06influencers,
1:02:07>> right?
1:02:08>> The way we talk about our product, the
1:02:09way we made it fun but also competitive.
1:02:12you know, these even the creators in the
1:02:15Miami house, like it wasn't just about
1:02:18money. It was about our top creators
1:02:20that are motivated as hell. They're all
1:02:22very similar like fitness influencers.
1:02:25Like
1:02:27once they start talking to each other
1:02:29and once they start identifying
1:02:32subconsciously actually even when you go
1:02:35from L1 to L7 we kind of have an
1:02:38understanding of who's going to be an L7
1:02:40creator because those are the people
1:02:42that represent our brand the best like
1:02:46of course because the values the events
1:02:48those things that we talk the way we
1:02:50talk about the product on a daily basis
1:02:52and how it's being used and the other
1:02:54bigger influencers ers that talk about
1:02:56it like the whoever like Mitchell Hooper
1:02:58is an example world's strongest man like
1:03:01or Andrew Schultz comedian who's very
1:03:03sharp
1:03:05Joe Rogan it all like subconsciously
1:03:09almost stacks up to represent someone
1:03:13that's
1:03:14confident but yet has humility
1:03:18and is allowed to have fun
1:03:21>> and then that trickles down into how the
1:03:24brand is which trickles down in how the
1:03:25creators are. That's how all of our
1:03:27events are. The type of people they meet
1:03:29are exactly like that. Also, like
1:03:32everything you're constructing is
1:03:34interconnected is one thing.
1:03:36>> Yeah. Like we're never going to do
1:03:37something that's so bizarre like
1:03:39whatever. Maybe a bizarre thing that
1:03:41would be but it'll still be fun,
1:03:45competitive, has humility behind it, you
1:03:48know? It's like it's still the same
1:03:50values no matter what it is.
1:03:52>> Interesting. So I was going to ask you
1:03:55the three elements of building a brand
1:03:56but I'm going to ask you first value
1:03:58system because you use that too much and
1:04:00I think that's going to be important for
1:04:01brand.
1:04:02>> Tell me three value the three values
1:04:04that you as a brand stand for and how
1:04:06did you find that and why only those
1:04:08three values.
1:04:10>> So there's there's two there's our
1:04:13external facing and our inter internal
1:04:15facing.
1:04:16>> So when we build out our brand book we
1:04:20talked about tone of voice.
1:04:22>> Mhm. Um, and the type of, if I were to
1:04:25think of like a type of person that
1:04:28represents our brand very well,
1:04:31>> I wouldn't say it's really an Andrew
1:04:33Huberman, right, who's sciencebacked,
1:04:35obviously very, very intelligent, but
1:04:38more on the dry side. Obviously, like he
1:04:40he doesn't like joke around too much.
1:04:42>> Yeah. But on the flip side, you look at
1:04:44someone like a Bill Nye the Science Guy
1:04:47or like Adam Savage from Mythbusters,
1:04:51>> they have the and we actually have a
1:04:53really sick collaboration happening next
1:04:55year with uh this company called
1:04:57Colossal um and might get some of those
1:04:58people involved. But
1:05:01there is a trust factor because of the
1:05:04science and everything that and the
1:05:05intelligence that they promote, but they
1:05:08obviously make it approachable and fun.
1:05:10Mhm.
1:05:10>> So for us, are we sciencebacked
1:05:14yet in
1:05:16uh building a sense of approachability
1:05:19in our product?
1:05:21>> Science yet fun.
1:05:22>> Science yet fun. And then again the
1:05:26humility component is really big which
1:05:28goes
1:05:28>> what do you mean by humility?
1:05:30>> Are you not overpromising?
1:05:34Like we don't overpromise that this is
1:05:36going to fix your whatever Alzheimer's
1:05:38or whatever. You know, there's like a
1:05:39lot of like that doctor.
1:05:41>> Yeah. Like we're not we're we're more
1:05:43Bill Nye than the doctor
1:05:45>> in a sense. You know, we're um we're not
1:05:49promising these crazy things. And in the
1:05:53products that we create down the line
1:05:55with innovation,
1:05:58we are never going to be creating
1:05:59something that promises to be a
1:06:01pharmaceutical level product. That's why
1:06:03we're not getting into GLP1s and this
1:06:05and that like right. But we will always
1:06:08be a product. And I think actually a lot
1:06:11of brands go down that path and end up
1:06:12ruining their brand because they
1:06:15deteriorate what built them in the first
1:06:17place. Are we sciencebacked? Are we
1:06:19approachable? And do we have the
1:06:21humility to understand that we live in
1:06:24that space?
1:06:25>> Interesting.
1:06:26>> And then we tie that back to internal
1:06:28values of leadership.
1:06:30Do we have calm leadership? Because if
1:06:33we're a brand that has fun, we should
1:06:35always be able to solve any problem with
1:06:37a smile on our face.
1:06:38>> Yeah.
1:06:39>> Um,
1:06:41sorry. Oh. Oh, humility. Yeah. Calm
1:06:43leadership. Humility. Do all of us, no
1:06:46matter what position we're in,
1:06:50understand that we call it servant
1:06:52leadership, but like we serve others.
1:06:54Everyone at every level serves other,
1:06:56>> right?
1:06:57>> That comes from a Japanese root. So,
1:06:58>> it is. And the last one, funny enough,
1:07:00is we have multiple values, but like
1:07:03these are the three important uh Kaizen.
1:07:07>> Have you heard that one?
1:07:08>> Constant improvement. Yeah.
1:07:08>> Constant progress over perfection. It's
1:07:11like which to me is this product as
1:07:14well.
1:07:15>> Okay. I I ruined it for you for audience
1:07:17for somebody who's who doesn't know
1:07:18about Kaizen, just go ahead and tell.
1:07:20>> So Kaizen, funny enough, Trader Joe's,
1:07:21which is a big retailer here too, uh
1:07:23Kaizen is one of their mantras as well.
1:07:26It is progress over perfection. like to
1:07:29improve every single day versus chasing
1:07:32perfection is a better mantra for life
1:07:36because there is no such thing as
1:07:38perfection and you know even the great
1:07:41leaders like Napoleon said it uh Mark
1:07:43Zuckerberg also says it you know like
1:07:46moving fast is better than taking all
1:07:50your time to create something that's
1:07:51perfect
1:07:52>> because things change in the process
1:07:55like there's no such thing as perfect
1:07:56but you can always improve yourself. In
1:07:58fact, if you're an entrepreneur, if
1:08:00you're someone that is trying to become
1:08:01a better version of yourself every
1:08:02single day, Kaizen should just be in
1:08:04your core.
1:08:06Nice. So, values internal and external.
1:08:09We build that. Okay. Value system for us
1:08:12is also important. When we started
1:08:14podcast, I think that's one of the most
1:08:16important thing for any podcaster as
1:08:18well that they should have.
1:08:19>> Yeah. They should have a very strong
1:08:21value system because at one point you're
1:08:23going to expand your podcast into
1:08:25multiple areas like how no matter what
1:08:27you start as you're eventually you'll
1:08:30become much more bigger and different
1:08:32and wider. So you need to have a very
1:08:34strict value system and for us that is
1:08:38so from day one we started with how the
1:08:40most world's most extraordinary minds
1:08:43think
1:08:44>> and we stay with that no matter what we
1:08:46do no matter who we call no matter how
1:08:49big small controversial uh educator
1:08:52non-education expert whatever we stick
1:08:55to this one value system and that's why
1:08:57I think the audience has helped us go
1:08:59from one territory to another from one
1:09:01country to another and now it's helping.
1:09:03So value system is so so goddamn
1:09:06important. And then we have a very
1:09:08important thing called the notto-do
1:09:11list.
1:09:12>> H I love that.
1:09:13>> That is like the most important for us.
1:09:16Yeah. Like we we say this internally
1:09:18that
1:09:19>> here are like five things we will never
1:09:21do
1:09:22>> and then we will do everything else.
1:09:24>> Yeah. Yeah. Like so so the five things
1:09:27that we never do is so you know the top
1:09:31five categories in content that works
1:09:33all around the world.
1:09:34>> We don't do any of that.
1:09:36>> Oh really?
1:09:36>> The the categories which get
1:09:38>> what are those? Yeah. What are those
1:09:40categories?
1:09:40>> So I'll tell you the categories which
1:09:41get highest views in the world. The top
1:09:43five are number one is horror.
1:09:46>> Oh yeah.
1:09:47>> Right. Like it gets like true crime
1:09:49horror.
1:09:50>> Yeah. Like I I don't know what like 1 2
1:09:533 4 5 6 like I I'm just messing up the
1:09:56priority order depending on the country
1:09:57but these these five stay for majority
1:10:00countries they stay as it is right some
1:10:03in some countries it can be one some be
1:10:05four but these five will be there so
1:10:07first is horror
1:10:08>> mhm
1:10:08>> second is religion and devotion
1:10:11>> which is very very very strong
1:10:13>> then there's entertainment and gossip
1:10:16>> which is big
1:10:18>> these are so obvious Yeah.
1:10:20Then sex and erotic conversations,
1:10:22right? Which is the soft pawn, the sex
1:10:24and erotic conversation. And then the
1:10:26fifth is astrology.
1:10:28>> Of course, man. And which is similar to
1:10:31religion, right?
1:10:32>> These five you look at anyone if you in
1:10:37any country the top five creators Mhm.
1:10:41>> they will fall into at least like at
1:10:43least three or four of them will fall
1:10:45into one of these category.
1:10:47>> That's crazy.
1:10:48I'd believe it though. It's so when you
1:10:50say it, it's so obvious.
1:10:51>> Yes.
1:10:52>> And I see why. I know why. You know,
1:10:54>> it's crazy.
1:10:55>> Yeah. So, and so we made a list that we
1:10:58will never do this. These are the five
1:11:01things we don't touch at all. Like we
1:11:03would even if we touch sometimes we
1:11:05touch sex as a subject, but we do it
1:11:07from a point of education.
1:11:09>> Yeah.
1:11:09>> We never do like some random erotic
1:11:11conversation. We will never do it.
1:11:13>> I can't even imagine that dude. Like
1:11:15>> don't start now.
1:11:18Okay, coming back you said you use a
1:11:20word called brand book.
1:11:22>> Yes.
1:11:22>> Right. First tell me what are the three
1:11:24elements of brand and then help me build
1:11:26a brand book for the entrepreneurs. What
1:11:29are these five things which are which
1:11:30should be there in a brand book? But
1:11:33before we go there tell me what is a
1:11:34brand?
1:11:35>> Uh you said community experience should
1:11:37I consider that as an element of brand?
1:11:39Um,
1:11:41yeah. Well, so I I'll talk about a brand
1:11:44from an a different perspective.
1:11:46>> From a
1:11:48I'll say it in two ways. I'll I'll talk
1:11:50about it from what like a typical brand
1:11:52is. It is a visual language of a
1:11:56product, right? Like there's a visual
1:11:57language of a product that you are
1:11:59communicating that has underlying tone,
1:12:02values, and uh communication mechanisms.
1:12:06So let's say like for us
1:12:09>> um
1:12:09>> tone values and
1:12:11>> uh communication like me mechanisms
1:12:14like that's what a brand is we are
1:12:16communicating energy and focus is the
1:12:18most important thing we are a gum packet
1:12:20so but with supplements so we talk about
1:12:24>> um how what ingredients are in here we
1:12:27are laid out like this all the time so
1:12:29even if you look at our different
1:12:30packaging levels you can see that there
1:12:33is a design format that
1:12:36So that's the visual language.
1:12:39>> There is a tone of voice. So if you look
1:12:41at all of our advertising, the way we
1:12:43talk on the back of the pack, even here,
1:12:45we there is a way that we speak
1:12:49in the packaging. Obviously, this
1:12:51doesn't really have it. Always
1:12:52sciencebacked. We've got good energy.
1:12:55That is the tone of voice. And then from
1:12:58there, how do you take that tone of
1:13:00voice and communicate it out into all
1:13:02the marketing material? So now you have
1:13:05a way of expanding it.
1:13:07>> So communication, tone of voice and
1:13:10>> uh visual language.
1:13:12>> So how do you present yourself? How how
1:13:14do you vis visually
1:13:15>> and then you just stick by it forever.
1:13:18>> Yeah. So that's that's the foundation.
1:13:20There's that's the architecture right of
1:13:22what and then from there
1:13:24>> that's where marketing and all those
1:13:26things get really exciting innovation
1:13:28because you have to stick within those
1:13:29confines of an architecture and values
1:13:32and ideas and tone of voice and build
1:13:34from that
1:13:36>> okay
1:13:36>> it's your bible like we we call it a
1:13:38brand bible more than a brand book but I
1:13:39don't want to bring religion into this
1:13:42um if
1:13:45from there though the other way to look
1:13:48at a brand
1:13:50>> is
1:13:52audience. So
1:13:55how does the audience dictate how your
1:13:58brand is being perceived is another
1:14:00thing. So if you start off with
1:14:02especially like a creator community and
1:14:04you're realizing that the language
1:14:06that's being used is around confidence
1:14:11let's say which I hear a lot with our
1:14:13product
1:14:15then how are you building an effective
1:14:18feedback loop to adjust your values and
1:14:21brands but not too much because like
1:14:23that's when you get out of hand to
1:14:27reformat recreate and then that's why
1:14:29many brands like every 10 years or so,
1:14:31they relaunch with a new brand book. You
1:14:33know, um what are the experiences that
1:14:37you want people to have? Like we were
1:14:39talking about that experience still fits
1:14:42within this framework, the tone of
1:14:43voice, but
1:14:46you know, a brand book's not going to
1:14:47tell you how a person feels or how they
1:14:50should feel. Like you have to create
1:14:52that.
1:14:52>> Yeah.
1:14:53>> And then put it into your brand book.
1:14:54But like that feel like for us, we want
1:14:57people to everyone at one of our
1:14:59experiences should feel approachable. So
1:15:04everyone's friends with each other cuz
1:15:05that amplifies the fun
1:15:07>> cuz there's no like the aspirational
1:15:11egoistic Top Gun level. None of that.
1:15:14>> Everyone's Everyone hangs out. Everyone
1:15:16chill place.
1:15:16>> It's a chill place.
1:15:18VIP section and a table for like
1:15:20important people.
1:15:21>> Never. Never. And I honestly will like
1:15:24we do with our creators obviously, but
1:15:26once they get there, the experience is
1:15:28they're all the same. Um, yeah, it's not
1:15:31a Tony Robbins conference that you're
1:15:32going to. It's a neuro conference.
1:15:35So, is there approachability? Is there
1:15:37fun? Like, you know, is there energy and
1:15:39excitement? It should like it should
1:15:41constantly be high energy. Um like all
1:15:44these things
1:15:46is a feeling that when I listen to your
1:15:49podcast what is that feeling I want to
1:15:51get when I go to an event of your sort
1:15:53like those are things I think should
1:15:55also be embedded into a brand book that
1:15:57typically
1:15:58is is not
1:15:59>> okay it becomes ton of voice let's do
1:16:01one by one I think we jumped in right
1:16:04here so let's pick up first as feeling
1:16:06okay
1:16:06>> sure
1:16:07>> so feeling in your brand book what is
1:16:09the feeling that you want your audience
1:16:12or your customers to feel when they
1:16:14touch or see or consume your product.
1:16:17Trust. So let's say from a physical st.
1:16:20So let's start off with like the the
1:16:22original three, right?
1:16:24>> Tone of voice, communication, visual
1:16:25language.
1:16:26>> Um visual language. I pick up a piece of
1:16:29gum or a pickup pack.
1:16:34Even down at the operational level and
1:16:36the way we design our packaging, there's
1:16:38a nice gloss on this. This is embossed
1:16:41so it feels premium. And it's not
1:16:44premium just because it looks nice. It's
1:16:46premium because we use premium
1:16:48ingredients that all work together to
1:16:51create a trust uh trustable reliable
1:16:54product.
1:16:55>> So you don't we don't say any of those
1:16:58things on the packaging. It's like yeah
1:17:00the most reliable energy like you're not
1:17:02writing that. But through the visual
1:17:05language you are able to create that.
1:17:07What is the most important thing that I
1:17:10should put in my packaging so that it it
1:17:12screams trust without even saying it?
1:17:15Because there has to be some magic. Is
1:17:16it negative space?
1:17:18>> Is it something else?
1:17:20>> Transparency.
1:17:22>> Well, it depends cuz I I think it
1:17:24depends on the the brand obviously as
1:17:25well.
1:17:26>> What's for you so that we know
1:17:28>> for us we talk about transparency. So
1:17:31the ingredients are right on the front.
1:17:34>> Okay.
1:17:34>> Energy and focus. you know exactly what
1:17:36you're going to get when you have the
1:17:38product
1:17:39>> of the brand.
1:17:40>> This is mechanical, but when I look at
1:17:44our product and I touch it and I'm like,
1:17:45"Wow." Like, and I look at another
1:17:47crappy piece of gum that doesn't have
1:17:49all these things, you know, this costs
1:17:51us like a penny to even
1:17:55>> like see how it's like a little
1:17:56>> raised. Yeah. Yeah. Like you can't tell
1:17:58if you're just looking at it, but then
1:18:00you pick it up and you're just like,
1:18:01whoa, they're like even that little
1:18:04detail, right?
1:18:05>> Yeah.
1:18:06>> Like you know that there's like a these
1:18:09guys put in attention to detail even
1:18:12because of something like that. You see
1:18:13like this is shiny a little bit also.
1:18:16>> Like those little things
1:18:19add to the trust, the reliability,
1:18:23>> the way the visual language of the
1:18:25product comes out. Nice. So, so if you
1:18:28want to create a visual language which
1:18:30has where you want people to trust you,
1:18:34the three things you need to be very
1:18:36mindful about. How are you being
1:18:38transparent? How are you
1:18:41showing them that you have uh your
1:18:44entire brand runs around attention to
1:18:46detail and then what is a simple promise
1:18:49in two or three words.
1:18:50>> Yes,
1:18:51>> these are like three very important
1:18:52things. If this is sitting on a retail
1:18:54shelf and you're just like,
1:18:55>> can I trust it?
1:18:56>> Yeah. Can I trust it? And like if I look
1:18:58at it, I know exactly what it does.
1:18:59>> Mhm.
1:19:00>> Boom. I know energy and focus. Boom.
1:19:02It's so obvious.
1:19:03>> Yeah. True.
1:19:04>> I know exactly what it does.
1:19:05>> I know exactly what I'm going to get. I
1:19:07know exactly what I get. And I look at
1:19:08it, it's like, oh, it's energy and focus
1:19:10because of the caffeine, although
1:19:12that's great. That's a great benefit.
1:19:14Spearmint. That's a great flavor, you
1:19:16know. Oh, and now I picked it up. Wow.
1:19:18Like this is really nice packaging.
1:19:20>> Interesting. Okay. Right. all those
1:19:22things. So, and subtle things but
1:19:24obviously.
1:19:25>> Okay. So, that's that's visual language
1:19:27is first in the brand book in brand
1:19:29bible as you say.
1:19:30>> Mhm.
1:19:31>> Then second is feeling.
1:19:34>> The feeling you want is approachable
1:19:36energy and what else?
1:19:38>> Approachable. Um well when I say energy
1:19:40the we're talking about community
1:19:41experiences. But if we go back to the
1:19:44tone of voice and the
1:19:46>> Okay, let's go tone of voice first.
1:19:49The way we talk about our product is
1:19:51never overly scientific. And I could
1:19:54talk overly I was a neuroscience major
1:19:55so I could talk, you know, like the
1:19:57brain all day. But if we're going back
1:20:00and I'm
1:20:02not trying to confuse someone to talk
1:20:03about, oh, okay, like uh you blockad a
1:20:06scene and this is how when I start
1:20:08talking like that to someone, dude,
1:20:10we're a gum.
1:20:13>> Like you know, at the end of the day,
1:20:15we're a gum and a mint.
1:20:16It's has to have that approachability
1:20:19but a reliability on the trust and we
1:20:22could talk about uh the science
1:20:24components the different pathways that
1:20:26this is affecting how caffeine blocks
1:20:28adenosine receptors so that's how you
1:20:31don't feel tired you know elenine allows
1:20:33you to curb the the and balance out the
1:20:37caffeine you know cuz the compounds
1:20:39amino acid compounds found in matcha and
1:20:41green tea you can dive in and look at
1:20:44that if you want to on on our website
1:20:46and that's why we have the clinical
1:20:48trials but we don't lead with the
1:20:50clinical trials. We lead with the
1:20:53approachability, the fun, the
1:20:54transparency that our product has and
1:20:57then if they want to search more into
1:20:58it,
1:20:59>> they realize like, oh wow, there's all
1:21:01these things
1:21:02>> that allow me to trust it.
1:21:04>> Interesting. Nice. Okay, so that's tone
1:21:06of voice.
1:21:07>> Tone of voice. And again with tone of
1:21:08voice, the way we do it is like if
1:21:10there's a celebrity that uh you can if
1:21:13your product is a celebrity, what kind
1:21:14of celebrity would it be? And we talk
1:21:16about childish Gambino, you know, he's
1:21:20>> one of the most talented people, plays
1:21:22music, comedy, acts, everything, but
1:21:24it's still like a funny guy compared to
1:21:26like uh Jared Leto or something, you
1:21:29know, who's so serious,
1:21:31>> although he's very talented.
1:21:33>> That's a good question to ask. I I love
1:21:34that question. If your product was a
1:21:37celebrity, which celebrity would it be?
1:21:39>> Yeah.
1:21:40>> Who would it be for you? You're already
1:21:42a celebrity.
1:21:44>> No, no, no, no, not not yet.
1:21:46>> Wow, that's a tough question, dude.
1:21:50>> Yeah,
1:21:50>> that is that's a good question though. I
1:21:52like it. I'm going to think the instant
1:21:55name that comes in my head is Oprah.
1:21:57>> Oh, interesting.
1:21:59>> Yeah, like
1:21:59>> do you give free giveaways to everyone?
1:22:01Yeah, I really want for my podcast. If
1:22:05let's say if my podcast has a brand and
1:22:07if we wanted to be a celebrity, which
1:22:08celebrity would it be? I think Oprah
1:22:10would top that.
1:22:11>> Oprah's a good one.
1:22:12>> But but I want to go deeper and think
1:22:15more like this is just top of my head
1:22:16because she's an inspiration. So I look
1:22:18up to her
1:22:20>> and it's easy to start associating. It's
1:22:21like, okay, what would Oprah do?
1:22:24>> Yeah. Yeah. And like what wouldn't she
1:22:26do? You know, there's a bunch of things
1:22:28that hopefully she doesn't do, but uh
1:22:31it's easy to start building a tone of
1:22:32voice for your brand. Be like, I'm gonna
1:22:34It needs to be like this person, you
1:22:36know, and obviously I represent the
1:22:38brand in a way.
1:22:39>> Um I hopefully I don't act like a overly
1:22:43scientific you know.
1:22:46>> So, there's that component. And then
1:22:48finally um so visual language, tone of
1:22:51voice um and then uh
1:22:55what was the last thing I say? Um
1:22:58>> visual language, tone of voice and
1:22:59communication but communication.
1:23:00>> Oh communication. Yeah. Um is part of
1:23:04it's part of tone of voice. Yeah. And
1:23:05the visual language.
1:23:06>> Okay. So in the brand book there has to
1:23:08be visual language. There has to be tone
1:23:10of voice. There has to be a feeling
1:23:11defined. What feeling?
1:23:13>> What else needs to be there in the brand
1:23:15book?
1:23:16Um so in a typical brand book even if
1:23:20you if you start with those three it
1:23:22starts getting broken down even more
1:23:24concretely.
1:23:25>> So with any new product launch it is are
1:23:29these the fonts you are using you should
1:23:31always be using the same fonts.
1:23:33>> Okay
1:23:33>> you know is there
1:23:36for us we even talk about the cadence of
1:23:39how we speak. So, are we talking in
1:23:41short sentences? This is this, this is
1:23:43this, or are we talking in short
1:23:45sentence, long? Is there a rhythm to the
1:23:47words, right? In how you're speaking.
1:23:49>> Nice.
1:23:50>> Because I mean, you have a way you
1:23:51speak. I have a way I speak. And funny
1:23:54enough, the way you speak defines a
1:23:56person. True.
1:23:57>> Right. And that's communication. So, is
1:23:59there a way that you're speaking even in
1:24:01Oh, the rhythm of how you communicate.
1:24:04That's new. So rhythm of sentences and
1:24:09how you speak and what kind of language
1:24:11you
1:24:12>> pretty fascinating you and what is yours
1:24:16like is it like short sentences?
1:24:18>> No, I mean it's a it's approachability.
1:24:20So it's a combination of very strong
1:24:22statements that we would make but then
1:24:25like an approachable like longer sent
1:24:27like there's we never make it like the
1:24:31reason we don't use short sentences like
1:24:34is that becomes a statement every single
1:24:37time and some companies do that you know
1:24:39because it works but and it's not overly
1:24:42flourishy. We're not using big bombastic
1:24:45words and because then there's no trust.
1:24:49you're covering it up with.
1:24:51>> But is there a balance between simple
1:24:54words that are effective and
1:24:55approachable, but statements when you
1:24:57need to make the statement? So, it's an
1:24:59actual hit.
1:25:01>> That's a balance in language.
1:25:03>> It's like you do headline and then you
1:25:06do the explainer,
1:25:07>> headline, small explainer, explainer.
1:25:09That's your rhythm.
1:25:10>> So, talk to me about community events.
1:25:14You were talking about it. What do you
1:25:16prefer? the large community event once a
1:25:18year or like bunch of small ones or like
1:25:20mid-level two or three a year. That's
1:25:22it.
1:25:22>> Yeah, we do like I think we do one every
1:25:24other month. So like six six a year. So
1:25:26it's kind of a lot a lot
1:25:28>> but sometimes it's big, sometimes it's
1:25:29small. I mean we do maybe we even do
1:25:31more. Like we'll sponsor like a Pilates
1:25:33event. So the entire Pilates studio is
1:25:36Neurogum, you know. Um that's a big one.
1:25:39Every other brand is doing this pilate
1:25:41thing. I know it's I don't know. Like
1:25:44you do it so you should know. Well, I
1:25:45don't do Pilates like we do it.
1:25:47>> No, but like you sponsor Pilate brand,
1:25:49right? The Pilate is is really picked
1:25:51up.
1:25:51>> It's picked up like crazy.
1:25:53>> It It has really picked up
1:25:54>> Pilates and pickle ball.
1:25:55>> Yeah.
1:25:55>> Oh, yeah. Pilates is big. Pickle ball is
1:25:57like really big right now.
1:25:59>> And even paddle in a lot of padd.
1:26:09>> Yes. Exactly.
1:26:11But with uh Pilates, I think it's not
1:26:16it's hard if you've ever done Pilates
1:26:18before.
1:26:18>> Yeah, I've done that. I've tried to do
1:26:20it.
1:26:21>> Oh, man.
1:26:22>> Like you're shaking.
1:26:23>> Yeah. I thought it was going to be so
1:26:24easy because there just bunch of people
1:26:26just on the reformer. I was like, "Yeah,
1:26:28I'm going to do it."
1:26:29>> You're just like,
1:26:31>> I remember like 18 minutes
1:26:34in 18 minutes. I was like this. I was
1:26:37like, "Please." I guess it requires
1:26:40focus. I mean, with our mark, I have to
1:26:41ask our marketing team, but Pilates is
1:26:43great though because And same with
1:26:45pickle ball and podel. Um, tennis is
1:26:48pretty hard. Pickle ball's not as hard.
1:26:52Pickle ball is fun. Pickle ball's easy.
1:26:53It's easy to play as long as you're not
1:26:55playing against pros, but it's easy to
1:26:57play.
1:26:57>> Yeah, exactly.
1:26:59>> And I think it's the same with like
1:27:00Pilates. Pilates is in CrossFit, but
1:27:02it's still hard.
1:27:03>> Yeah.
1:27:03>> Like there's like an accessibility to
1:27:05it. Like in a group class, if you go for
1:27:07the beginner ones, you can get through
1:27:08it.
1:27:09>> Yeah.
1:27:09>> So that's what it is. But if you do like
1:27:11one-on-one and you really want to focus
1:27:13on yourself, it's it can get brutal.
1:27:16Yeah.
1:27:16>> But but coming back to Pilates, like why
1:27:18every brand is partnering with Pilate
1:27:20clubs, Pilate uh sessions, organizing
1:27:23these Pilate communities. I see this
1:27:25like everywhere.
1:27:26>> I think Aloe started this and then now
1:27:28everybody does.
1:27:28>> I know. Genius Aloe. I think at its
1:27:32core, it is a group of people that are
1:27:35passionate about one thing. People, if
1:27:38you go into a Pilates class, you've seen
1:27:39this. They love Pilates and they'll talk
1:27:42about Pilates and they all hang out with
1:27:44each other with their Pilates and their
1:27:46socks, their special socks that they
1:27:47have.
1:27:48>> And there's this Pilates personality.
1:27:50>> Yeah, there's a Pilates personality. And
1:27:52if you're thinking about like um a cult
1:27:55of a brand and like being able to tap
1:27:57into uh different cults, like I'm using
1:28:00the word cult in like a very uh
1:28:02superficial way, but
1:28:04>> um you tap into a community of people
1:28:06that are talking to each other.
1:28:09If one Pilates person is like, "I got
1:28:11through my class thanks to Neurogum."
1:28:13That other housewife that you know is
1:28:17also trying to get through a class,
1:28:18we'll probably be like, "Oh, I should
1:28:20probably chew gum, too."
1:28:21>> You know, you could start saying that
1:28:23versus, you know, I think about like
1:28:26like F1 has a cool factor to it, but I
1:28:30don't know if that was like the right
1:28:31place for us to activate.
1:28:33>> Why? because it's such an independent
1:28:36sport and if I think about pickle ball
1:28:40or pilates or things where you're just
1:28:43like oh this I want to get better at it
1:28:45and what's what allows me to get better
1:28:47at it that when you have people sh
1:28:49people like what's like a brand that
1:28:53activates at F1 you know I'm trying to
1:28:54think of another brand like Red Bull I
1:28:56guess but Red Bull is all about
1:28:58individual performance
1:29:00and extreme performance
1:29:03>> and for That's that's not that's not
1:29:06really us, you know. It's not really
1:29:08extreme performance. It's finding the
1:29:09best version of yourself. That that's
1:29:10us, you know, at any given moment. We're
1:29:13in your pocket so you could be the best
1:29:14version of yourself in that moment, you
1:29:16know. It's not I'm going to go jump off
1:29:18a cliff in a squirrel suit. Interesting.
1:29:21So, you wouldn't go partner with an
1:29:23extreme athlete, but you will partner
1:29:25with someone like an everyday Joe who is
1:29:29who's in a good shape and wants to get
1:29:31in a better shape. that person who's
1:29:33trying every day, feel good factor,
1:29:35loving it.
1:29:36>> Yeah.
1:29:37>> And has a balanced life. Is that what
1:29:39your ideal type is?
1:29:40>> Yeah. Like I'm, you know, if I were to
1:29:42break it down, like we wouldn't sponsor
1:29:44like we actually got our start in
1:29:46CrossFit, funny enough,
1:29:47>> but I wouldn't go back and sponsor
1:29:48CrossFit cuz those it's a little too
1:29:51extreme. It's people it's so not
1:29:53accessible. Like will you sponsor Hyrox?
1:29:56But Hy Rocks is something I would
1:29:58sponsor because it's a little bit more
1:30:00accessible and easier to do than
1:30:02CrossFit without that
1:30:05>> almost like extremity in what people
1:30:08push themselves to. like we would
1:30:10sponsor,
1:30:13you know, I guess like to think about
1:30:16this, this there's actually a pretty big
1:30:17unlock for me even having this
1:30:19conversation right now uh that I'll
1:30:20bring up at the offsite, but
1:30:23what is an environment where your
1:30:26product did enough for a person that
1:30:28they're willing to share with the
1:30:29community that they're a part of? And if
1:30:31it's an F1 driver, even if an F1 driver
1:30:34shares it with their community,
1:30:37there's only like 12 F1 drivers,
1:30:41like what is that community? It's like
1:30:43it's so aspirational
1:30:45>> that
1:30:46>> it doesn't make sense, you know? You
1:30:48know, there's a company called Ladder
1:30:49that do you remember Ladder?
1:30:51>> No.
1:30:52>> It was a supplement company that had
1:30:53LeBron James, Arnold Schwarzenegger,
1:30:56Serena Williams, like the top athletes
1:30:59in the world. Mecca.
1:31:01>> Yeah.
1:31:01>> It failed like three months after
1:31:03launch.
1:31:03>> No way.
1:31:04>> Yeah. Because the No one's going to be a
1:31:07LeBron James.
1:31:09>> No one's like it's there was a pop, but
1:31:11then they anchored so heavily into these
1:31:14elite athletes. These elite athletes are
1:31:16that is such a small tam of audience
1:31:18members that it's like I'm going to be
1:31:20the LeBron, you know, I'm going to be
1:31:22the next this. And then they forgot
1:31:24about the community. they forgot about
1:31:27like the everyday person and how it
1:31:29impacts their life in a good way.
1:31:32>> This is such a good insight that your
1:31:34brand should be for communities where
1:31:37there's a sharable value or a sharable
1:31:39essence and there's hope that we can
1:31:42become part of this community.
1:31:44>> No,
1:31:44>> if there is no hope, no way to become
1:31:47part of this community and there's no
1:31:48sharable essence, then probably your
1:31:51brand
1:31:52Yeah. Like
1:31:53>> you have like 10 people using it.
1:31:54>> Yes.
1:31:56That's a good insight. I'm going to I'm
1:31:57I'm stealing.
1:31:58>> Take it. Take it. That's yours.
1:31:59>> I'm stealing it. I'm stealing it because
1:32:00>> I forgot what I even said. So now it's
1:32:03yours.
1:32:04>> Okay. But this is fun. All right. Let's
1:32:06get back to the community thing.
1:32:08>> So you said community events. Why would
1:32:10you do smaller community events and not
1:32:12just like one large event?
1:32:14>> I think it goes back to the micro
1:32:16influencer.
1:32:17>> Would you do like one large event as
1:32:18well?
1:32:19We would and we do from time to time
1:32:22like larger events but I think there's
1:32:24diminishing returns depending on the
1:32:26size of event that you do. Okay.
1:32:28>> So you could get a lot of people like we
1:32:30do these like big college events you
1:32:31know with uh our partners at Lion Leap.
1:32:34So like a thousand people will come into
1:32:36a bar and it's neurothemed and whatever
1:32:39but are those people really there for
1:32:42you or are they there for a cool event
1:32:46that you're paying for? But wouldn't
1:32:48that help the brand just like you become
1:32:51a cool brand or cool event where
1:32:54everybody wants to get an access but
1:32:56nobody can or maybe like they're waiting
1:32:57for the next
1:32:58>> and we did something like that in New
1:32:59York as well where it was like a bigger
1:33:00event and like there was limited access
1:33:02there were cool people there you know we
1:33:04brought our celebrity partners and stuff
1:33:05in
1:33:06>> but I think it's easy to find something
1:33:11that feels like the cool party to go to
1:33:14that night that's sponsored by the thing
1:33:16but you
1:33:18the the essence of the brand gets lost.
1:33:20>> It just becomes an event.
1:33:22>> But if it's a tight community like this
1:33:23K1 thing with 50 people, 60 people,
1:33:26they're all talking to each other within
1:33:30uh under the roof of Neuro. So obviously
1:33:32the main thing for all these people
1:33:35here, the common denominator is Neuro
1:33:40>> versus a big event, the common
1:33:41denominator is a cool party.
1:33:42>> Yeah. Like everyone's college is going,
1:33:44so I want to go.
1:33:45>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It'll go many head
1:33:47on.
1:33:47>> And I think a lot of people get lost in
1:33:50the sauce with that a little bit. I'm
1:33:52trying to think of like other brands
1:33:53that still do big events. And
1:33:56I I only like the Fortune50 companies
1:33:59that I know do do that, you know.
1:34:00>> So here's a question on that. So let's
1:34:02say there are two events, right? One
1:34:04event which is like the 50, 100, 200
1:34:06people max. You're not going to scale it
1:34:08beyond that because you want to create
1:34:09tight-knit community.
1:34:10>> Yeah.
1:34:11>> Right. And one is thousand people, 2,000
1:34:13people, 3,000 people like big large
1:34:15event. You take like the big creator
1:34:17house and then throw a big party and
1:34:19everybody's there, everybody's posting
1:34:20pictures, stuff like that. Two
1:34:22completely different events.
1:34:24What will give you more number of
1:34:28eyeballs and cool factor on social and
1:34:30digital content point of view which will
1:34:33help your brand doing these smaller
1:34:36events because at the price of that one
1:34:38event probably you can do five of these
1:34:39events
1:34:40>> or like 10 of these events. I'll say a
1:34:42little hack that we do also though
1:34:45because it's not it's not binary like
1:34:49big events actually do work sometimes
1:34:50because it depends on who's coming to
1:34:52the event and how you want to show off,
1:34:54right?
1:34:54>> Okay.
1:34:55>> So, at Expo West, Doodles did a great
1:34:58job. They just got sold to Borilla, but
1:35:00they did a massive they did the biggest
1:35:02party at Expo West because they knew
1:35:04retailers were going to come, they knew
1:35:06influencers were come, and they knew
1:35:07everyone at Expo West was going to come
1:35:09to that event because that was the cool
1:35:10event for everyone to go to. And then
1:35:12they made an impact to those retailers
1:35:14to be like this is the type of stuff
1:35:16that we do. This is how big we go. And
1:35:18so they got a bunch of sales because of
1:35:21that and places to go into. They did
1:35:24also something very genius which um they
1:35:27charged other brands. They set up the
1:35:30event. They charged other brands to
1:35:32activate alongside them. So they made
1:35:34their money back from other from other
1:35:36brands sponsoring that event.
1:35:38>> No, I didn't.
1:35:39>> But they were the main sponsor. So, they
1:35:41were the main sponsor for this event,
1:35:42>> okay?
1:35:43>> They built this huge thing
1:35:44>> and the event is by them.
1:35:45>> The event is by them.
1:35:46>> Okay.
1:35:47>> But they got 10 other brands to pay them
1:35:49like $10,000, $20,000 to activate their
1:35:52products
1:35:53>> in that space.
1:35:54>> It's Yeah,
1:35:55>> it's fine. Make the money back.
1:35:56>> So, they made the money back by by going
1:35:58that big. And, you know,
1:36:02we were talking about that internally,
1:36:04too, where like so many other brands
1:36:06donate product to us um for our
1:36:08partnerships when we activate. So it
1:36:10makes it a lot more interesting that if
1:36:12we throw something big enough, we just
1:36:14charge other brands probably to activate
1:36:16alongside us, but it's still a neuro
1:36:18event
1:36:19>> that just get free goodies for. So
1:36:21that's a very costefficient way to get
1:36:23eyeballs while also leveraging the fact
1:36:26that you invested into this really
1:36:28massive hop of an event, right? But on
1:36:31the flip side, a Pilates studio, a
1:36:33smaller community, all those things is
1:36:35everything we talked about. That's a
1:36:37community of people under the common
1:36:39denominator of neuro talking about your
1:36:41product, experiencing this shared thing
1:36:44together
1:36:45that then goes out and will always
1:36:48remember that oh that neuropilates thing
1:36:50was great. Interesting. So now that you
1:36:52talk about this community, give me three
1:36:55communities to tap into the smaller
1:36:57communities for a new brand for 2027
1:37:00which are going to become a trend or
1:37:02which are already becoming trend and
1:37:04they're underrated and underpriced
1:37:05attention. You can get them
1:37:07>> like Pilates is big now. I don't want to
1:37:08use Pilates.
1:37:09>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:37:10>> Like everybody knows the Pilates play.
1:37:11>> What kind of brand? What kind of brand?
1:37:13>> Any
1:37:13>> a performance brand?
1:37:14>> Yeah. Let's say CPG brand,
1:37:16>> performance brand. Okay. Let's build
1:37:18anti-performance brand like anti energy
1:37:20brand. Let's build a calm brand.
1:37:22>> Okay. Okay. A calm brand. Let's let's
1:37:23say a calm brand because you're so
1:37:24stressed out. Let's go back with the
1:37:26sleep thing, but not for sleep. It's
1:37:27like for
1:37:29>> calm. Yeah. Like there's so much stress
1:37:31in the world. Declutter
1:37:33>> engineers.
1:37:35Uh, are you able to get into corporate
1:37:37campuses, corporate cafeterias? Like I
1:37:39have friends brands that have gone in,
1:37:41they work with there's distributors in
1:37:44the United States like canteen, PFG that
1:37:47work with Twitter offices or ex offices,
1:37:51uh, meta offices and things like that
1:37:54and just sell into those cafeterias.
1:37:56That is an ecosystem of people that are
1:37:58working 24/7 and they go to the
1:38:00cafeteria and they pick up your brand
1:38:02every single day. I think that is a huge
1:38:03opportunity for a lot of brands if you
1:38:05could break into that.
1:38:07>> Interesting.
1:38:08>> Because those are people that are
1:38:09stressed out also.
1:38:10>> Yeah. The cool brands. The cool brands.
1:38:13Yeah. So that's one like so something
1:38:15like that corporate campuses and with
1:38:17the AI revolution are you able to tap
1:38:19into budding entrepreneurs and AI
1:38:21engineers that um if it's a com product
1:38:25especially like those are the people
1:38:27that
1:38:29it's the easiest way to get uh the word
1:38:31out because you're diving into a budding
1:38:33industry.
1:38:35>> Um
1:38:37are there other uh ecosystems that I've
1:38:39seen that are pretty interesting right
1:38:41now?
1:38:42>> Yeah. Which are budding? So you said
1:38:43cool campuses, college, corporate
1:38:45hustle, cool startups, that gang. I love
1:38:48that idea by the way.
1:38:48>> Yeah.
1:38:49>> Love it,
1:38:50>> right? Like it's because they're already
1:38:51in that environment
1:38:52>> and they're high paying audiences that
1:38:54that's another essence. They're high.
1:38:57>> These are the guys who talk a lot more.
1:38:59These are like close-knit community on
1:39:02if two managers or two leaders start
1:39:04drinking, everybody worships their
1:39:06leaders. So everybody starts doing it as
1:39:07a cult-like behavior as well. I love
1:39:09this. This a great
1:39:10>> There's another one. So running has
1:39:13become really really big again. But I'm
1:39:16going to take a step back. It's not the
1:39:18running. People aren't drinking alcohol
1:39:21anymore.
1:39:21>> Yeah.
1:39:22>> But people are people. They still want
1:39:24to feel something. They still want to
1:39:25kind of like get high on something, you
1:39:27know, like whatever it is. So is there
1:39:31spaces that people can enjoy a social
1:39:37lubricant in some way or even if it's
1:39:39feeling if it's a calm product where
1:39:41they're feeling calm like retreats like
1:39:44there now there's like wellness retreats
1:39:46are getting really really big um morning
1:39:49like for a product like Neuro we do like
1:39:51Diplo run club where it's a morning
1:39:54event that starts at 7:00 a.m. And then
1:39:56Diplo has uh DJ set at 10. So no one's
1:40:00drinking but they still want to feel
1:40:01energy. So they take something like
1:40:02Neuroga.
1:40:03>> But for that that makes a great for
1:40:05energy brand, not for the calm brand.
1:40:06>> Yeah. But for a combrand, a wellness
1:40:08retreat is perfect. So have you seen
1:40:10these? Like there's like these week-long
1:40:13retreats now where um you put your phone
1:40:16away like you it's called digital detox.
1:40:18>> Yeah. But those are the people they're
1:40:19drinking like peas and like
1:40:22>> before product. But if it's a calm
1:40:24product,
1:40:25>> is that the space where it's like if I
1:40:26really want to stress
1:40:28>> or
1:40:30that's maybe once they come back into
1:40:31reality, you know, we're just
1:40:33brainstorming right now too, right?
1:40:35>> So it's like
1:40:35>> so wellness retreats, wellness
1:40:37community. It's any environment. And if
1:40:40there's like a third one, you know, like
1:40:42like the the through line with all
1:40:44these, by the way, is
1:40:48every you know, there's the cult of
1:40:50Apple. The there's the word cult that's
1:40:53like gets used. We were even you like
1:40:55they're like the cult leader of a
1:40:57corporate campus. If you know, whatever
1:40:59the the boss is, if Jensen Wang is doing
1:41:01something, eating fried chicken, you're
1:41:03probably going to go every Yeah. Right.
1:41:06It's like those are the ecosystems you
1:41:09tap into in a running club. If Diplo
1:41:11starts a run club and everyone goes to
1:41:12see him as a DJ and he's throwing your
1:41:15like there's videos of him throwing
1:41:16neurogum into the crowd, you know, like
1:41:18everyone's chewing neurogum there.
1:41:20>> Like
1:41:20>> what's the environment? I would say that
1:41:24there's there's almost like a cultlike
1:41:26following that's already built in and
1:41:28you could get that one person. All you
1:41:30need to do is just tap into that one
1:41:31person to get everyone else involved.
1:41:34Yeah. But where is that cult? like you
1:41:35the wellness cult will be there
1:41:37corporate cult cult what's the third
1:41:39cult I know what's the third cult what
1:41:42is becoming which is a which is small
1:41:44community which you see becoming big
1:41:47>> h
1:41:51I mean I think I actually think
1:41:54with
1:41:55well I I don't know it's that's a good
1:41:58question like cuz there's so many
1:42:00there's so many micro communities I
1:42:02think about like podcast communities too
1:42:04like when people are listening to you. I
1:42:05I use the word again I'm using the word
1:42:07cult in a specific very specific way but
1:42:10why does your audience listen to you
1:42:13because and why would brands work with
1:42:16you right you've already built trust by
1:42:19the audience you it goes back to the
1:42:21brand values you built all these things
1:42:23where your audience trusts you so if I'm
1:42:25working not even as like an experiential
1:42:28event like if we take a step back from
1:42:30events but go back into people to tap
1:42:33into
1:42:34Who is the most reliable voice that
1:42:38already has an audience that trusts them
1:42:40like crazy
1:42:42that allows that trust to be translated
1:42:45to their audience?
1:42:47And I think that's
1:42:50that's a framework to think about just
1:42:51in general whatever it is for
1:42:53experiences, marketing, whatever.
1:42:56I'm now thinking
1:42:58I'm thinking like which can be who is
1:43:01this person who's built this trust is
1:43:03underrated right now. That's a goal in
1:43:05mind.
1:43:07>> Who who who do you have in mind?
1:43:09>> I don't I don't have anyone in mind.
1:43:11Podcast is pretty known. Creator armies
1:43:13is pretty known.
1:43:14>> Uh like corporate was good. Like that's
1:43:17a good example. That's something
1:43:18underrated like engineers specifically
1:43:21very niche uh very strong
1:43:25run clubs is becoming popular so I would
1:43:27still say
1:43:28>> run clubs are run club you know
1:43:30everybody knows now and then run club is
1:43:32becoming a thing
1:43:33>> you know what's funny like a lot of
1:43:34people are sponsoring pickle ball but
1:43:38pickle ball has not done well for brands
1:43:41>> because when I go play pickle ball with
1:43:43my friend I'm not thinking of a brand
1:43:45when I play you know it's just like a
1:43:47thing I go to the tennis court to do.
1:43:48>> Yeah. It It's super competitive. So,
1:43:50like with friends, so it's you're not
1:43:52thinking about brands.
1:43:54>> Yeah.
1:43:55>> So, it has to be an ecosystem that's not
1:43:57And that's why I didn't say something
1:43:58like a pickle ball or like
1:43:59>> Yeah.
1:44:00>> Um aloe is perfect in Pilates because
1:44:03you can look sexy while you're doing
1:44:04it's like so perfect, right? There is
1:44:07like this visible
1:44:10impact
1:44:11>> Yeah.
1:44:12>> of what you wear in that environment.
1:44:15So, is there something like that also
1:44:16with your supplement brand? It's not
1:44:18just handing out the drinks, but it is
1:44:19like
1:44:21it goes back to feeling.
1:44:22>> Yeah. What is that feeling? Good. That's
1:44:25a question for everyone with their
1:44:27brands to think about.
1:44:29>> Like that's that's a good question that
1:44:32h this person who has accumulated trust
1:44:36in a small micro community
1:44:40who is able to create a similar feeling
1:44:42that your brand is trying to create. If
1:44:44you can tap into that,
1:44:46>> that's going to be a gold one for you.
1:44:47>> And that's a hard question, but hard
1:44:50questions exist because when you crack
1:44:52them, that's when your brand can take
1:44:53off, right?
1:44:54>> Yeah. Like there's a reward at the end
1:44:55of the rainbow.
1:44:56>> Yeah. That's it's it's a question worth
1:44:58cracking.
1:44:59>> A question worth it's a good one. Okay.
1:45:01Here are last two things I want to
1:45:03touch. Okay. Uh actually three things.
1:45:09>> We're gonna go on for two more hours.
1:45:10>> Yeah.
1:45:10>> Let's go.
1:45:11>> Let's go. Okay. The first is hiring
1:45:14because you said the perfect alo girl. I
1:45:16think that's
1:45:18that goes with every brand.
1:45:19>> Yeah.
1:45:20>> The person who you hire is going to be
1:45:22the perfect neuro guy or the neuro girl.
1:45:24>> Like that is the single most
1:45:28>> important thing that any brand can do.
1:45:30Like because for us it's like anyone we
1:45:33hire
1:45:36we need to see that do they have
1:45:37figuring out attitude or not.
1:45:39>> Yeah. And we've defined figuring out
1:45:40attitude very clearly.
1:45:42>> Yeah.
1:45:42>> If they don't have then they're not fit
1:45:45for our work workplace. So how do you
1:45:47hire? What is the essential thing? What
1:45:49do you look for people? What are you
1:45:51looking for in the most a bad hire could
1:45:54ruin your business? And everyone knows
1:45:55that. You know, it's like an adage
1:45:58that's been told many times over, but a
1:46:00good hire can obviously transform your
1:46:02business. And the thing with a good hire
1:46:04is it could go at many levels.
1:46:06Obviously, you want the experience. um
1:46:08depending on the level you're hiring
1:46:09for, you want like a certain level of
1:46:12experience that translates into the work
1:46:13that you want. But more important than
1:46:16that is a scorecard of how they fit into
1:46:19the culture and the culture of the
1:46:21people that they're working with
1:46:22directly. So if you're a smaller
1:46:24company, that person better become your
1:46:27best friend, you know, like Ryan, right?
1:46:28Like Ryan's my brother. So for me and
1:46:31him to be working together as
1:46:33co-founders and building this business,
1:46:35it made sense because the trust and the
1:46:37friendship was already there and we knew
1:46:38that that wasn't going to deteriorate.
1:46:41Phase two,
1:46:43because we're a small company, who are
1:46:45other people that are bought into the
1:46:47vision that have the work ethic that we
1:46:49do that's really to figure things out
1:46:51with you. And problem solving is like
1:46:54the number one value that we look for in
1:46:57every single employee.
1:46:59and why I keep saying humility. I've
1:47:01probably used the word humility like 50
1:47:02times in this podcast.
1:47:04Even if you're the most experienced
1:47:06person in the world, every company that
1:47:10you work for, every single day of your
1:47:12life even is a different experience. And
1:47:16to solve problems is to be able to
1:47:20adapt. And to be able to adapt is the
1:47:22basis of evolving, of evolution, of
1:47:25evolving as a human being, is evolving
1:47:26as a company. And so to take a step back
1:47:30and refine everything I just said
1:47:31because I just said a lot.
1:47:34Trust. Is it a person that you have
1:47:37trust in for an experiential level but
1:47:39also a personal level? That's one
1:47:41because you're working alongside them
1:47:42every single day and you don't want them
1:47:44to backstab you. Um two uh is there
1:47:50humility involved? Is this person
1:47:53willing to admit their mistakes so that
1:47:55they could learn from it? And are other
1:47:57people, including myself as like a CEO,
1:48:00not willing to punish people for
1:48:04mistakes just because they made one, but
1:48:07instead turn into a learning experience
1:48:08because you have the humility to be able
1:48:10to
1:48:11>> get past it. Which leads into the third
1:48:14thing. Are they a problem solver in that
1:48:16regard? If a mistake or a problem does
1:48:19happen in the business, do we all get
1:48:22together and it's just like like solving
1:48:25a problem should be fun? And in fact,
1:48:27like the way we build our company like
1:48:29you know in the past we used to have
1:48:31really ambitious milestones that we
1:48:33would try to hit and we would try to
1:48:34like do these like AOP annual operating
1:48:37plan sessions that were like we need to
1:48:40hit these goals this year like because
1:48:42this is how a startup should be growing.
1:48:45If you make your milestones simple
1:48:47enough that you could be able to hit
1:48:50them one, but it's still ambitious, you
1:48:53know, like but there has to be like
1:48:55clear, easily defined, accessible and
1:48:59reachable milestones for any business
1:49:01that everyone targets. That's so easy to
1:49:04understand.
1:49:05The morale of the company stays high
1:49:07because those milestones are, you know,
1:49:09it just takes a little bit of work to
1:49:11achieve them.
1:49:13It's a carrot that's dangling far enough
1:49:15away that people are still working
1:49:18because they know that they could grab
1:49:19it and then it creates this great
1:49:21culture of people that are working
1:49:24towards goals that are easy to
1:49:26understand.
1:49:28>> So that's that's kind of the framework
1:49:30for hiring and like how you build pro
1:49:33like um what are the problem solving
1:49:35mechanisms for those hires that everyone
1:49:37could work towards. But let's go one
1:49:40step back and help the fellow founders
1:49:43hire better. These are the things that
1:49:45you look for. What are the questions you
1:49:47ask in hiring so that you get to know
1:49:50these things? What's your favorite
1:49:51question to ask?
1:49:53>> What do you do for fun?
1:49:56>> What?
1:49:56>> What do you do for fun?
1:49:57>> Why? Why this?
1:49:58>> What do you do for fun?
1:49:59>> Oh, you're asking me? I'm asking you. I
1:50:02want to see how you answer.
1:50:05>> I love watching movies.
1:50:07>> Why do you like movies?
1:50:10Like what about movies is it that that
1:50:11you like?
1:50:12>> I I go from I have a big range. So I
1:50:15love watching movies because it always
1:50:16surprises me. Sometimes I'll watch like
1:50:18completely senseless action movie that
1:50:20one one person's punching from here and
1:50:22then they're flying out of the shop.
1:50:24>> And then sometimes I'll find really
1:50:27in-depth movies where I'm getting
1:50:29inspired or like finding some crack. So
1:50:31I love this range of emotions which
1:50:33makes me more human. That's why I like
1:50:35movies and that's what I do for fun. So
1:50:37now I just learned about you from what
1:50:39you do outside of work that there's a
1:50:42range of emotions like at a human level
1:50:44that you're tapping into when you watch
1:50:46movies which you love because of this
1:50:48that like when you ask about just
1:50:52experiences we're not transaction like
1:50:54humans shouldn't be transactional like
1:50:56things are transactional but you know
1:50:57humans shouldn't be transactional rather
1:51:00it is how are you creating an
1:51:02environment for not just yourself but
1:51:05all other employees where the things
1:51:08that we do outside of work, who what
1:51:10we're personally passionate about are
1:51:12able to be utilized to bring new
1:51:15opinions, new thoughts to create a
1:51:19company that's not just we sell product
1:51:21to make money,
1:51:23>> right?
1:51:24>> And then that's culture.
1:51:26That's new ideas to solve problems
1:51:29because you could a problem requires
1:51:31different angles to solve. Um, and
1:51:35that is uh ultimately someone that you
1:51:38could trust because you know that
1:51:39they're human.
1:51:41>> Interesting. So you would ask let's say
1:51:44>> and this is me hiring at a CEO level by
1:51:45the way. So this is me asking those
1:51:47questions.
1:51:48>> Let's take a step back actually
1:51:50>> because if you're a starting
1:51:52entrepreneur,
1:51:54what are the exact things that you need?
1:51:59Right? someone that's willing to stay up
1:52:01with you because you're just launching a
1:52:03business and that requires an extra
1:52:05level of work. So, what's that
1:52:08personality trait that you're looking
1:52:09for for that person that's driven and
1:52:12ambitious enough to do that more so than
1:52:14experience? Although experience does
1:52:16help. M. And then on top of that, if
1:52:20someone is working so so hard in your
1:52:23communication piece, are you realizing
1:52:26that that person is not going to break
1:52:29and crack under stress and pressure and
1:52:31turn into like the worst employee you'll
1:52:33ever hire? And there's this book
1:52:36actually the co-founder of RXBar, Jared,
1:52:40um Jared Smith, who's also a great
1:52:42friend of mine, uh recommended when we
1:52:45first started. is a book called who the
1:52:47process to hire fantastic book and it
1:52:49goes through and I recommend everyone
1:52:52read it alongside high output management
1:52:54from the CEO of IBM those are two great
1:52:56books that tie in with each other.
1:52:59What is the scorecard that you are
1:53:01building from a culture experience um
1:53:04and output model to find the right
1:53:07employee and then with the high output
1:53:09management he talks about the machine.
1:53:11If you are building a machine, a machine
1:53:14could just be all this work and engine
1:53:17cranking um like a big engine that's
1:53:20cranking to create the output. But
1:53:22eventually as a company grows, you want
1:53:24higher output. So you start adding more
1:53:26gears into it. You have to have the
1:53:29understanding through your hiring what
1:53:31those most efficient gears are to get
1:53:34the highest output. And so when you
1:53:36combine those two thought processes
1:53:38together, the scorecard of the culture,
1:53:40the trust, the problem solving, all all
1:53:42that stuff uh and the experience into
1:53:45you as CEO, the vision of what's going
1:53:47to be the most efficient thing, the most
1:53:50important gears to put into your machine
1:53:52to get the best output,
1:53:54you start creating a framework for
1:53:57organization. You start creating a
1:53:59framework for what you need to hire. and
1:54:02you don't think about gears that don't
1:54:05make sense.
1:54:06>> Interesting. Wow. It's a pretty
1:54:09complicated one to actually implement,
1:54:11but it's a great way to start thinking
1:54:13about a framework when you're when
1:54:15you're hiring or trying to build a
1:54:17culture because that scorecard is going
1:54:18to reveal a lot of things about you and
1:54:20how you're going to take decisions in
1:54:21your company.
1:54:22>> Yeah, exactly. And again, like I like
1:54:24asking the what do you do for fun
1:54:25question because like at my level, I'm
1:54:27like the last Yeah.
1:54:29>> interview, right? To me, I just want to
1:54:31know that who we're hiring is a human
1:54:33being at the end of the day. Like
1:54:35someone that's not in there just to do
1:54:37the work because like work's work, but
1:54:41someone who's passionate, cares about
1:54:43the business, brings new insights is
1:54:45leveling everyone else up.
1:54:47So why? So, okay. So, for you to know,
1:54:52it is important for you to know that I
1:54:54watch movies and I enjoy range of
1:54:55emotions because you want to see that
1:54:57I'm not a robot.
1:54:59That's part that's kind of partly it. I
1:55:01mean, a company is made of people
1:55:03>> and I want to be hanging out with a
1:55:04bunch of people I like.
1:55:06>> Yeah. Like you want to test like can I
1:55:08actually enjoy certain emotions and that
1:55:11I can tell you through what I do for
1:55:12fun. Even if I'm like competitive sports
1:55:14athlete outside, you'll get to know,
1:55:16okay, there's competition, there's
1:55:18compassion, there's empathy for team
1:55:19members, there's this guy knows how to
1:55:21lose, this guy know how to win. And
1:55:23what's also awesome is like and and if
1:55:25the thing you said that was fun is
1:55:28really unique. That's really interesting
1:55:31to me. If it was something that's so
1:55:34different from what everyone else does
1:55:36in like a way that I know is not going
1:55:37to fit. Then when everyone gets together
1:55:40like it's so much more fun. What's crazy
1:55:44is like when everyone gets together when
1:55:46they're in the office
1:55:48they're always talking about work.
1:55:51Like you've been in that environment
1:55:52before, they're always talking about
1:55:53work. But in that moment of work, if
1:55:56there's unique things about people, that
1:55:59unique thing comes into that
1:56:00conversation of work. And so like the
1:56:02work becomes that much more of a bigger
1:56:06web to pull. It's
1:56:08>> it's like cool to see actually when like
1:56:10so many different opinions come into
1:56:12play and then it turns into this like
1:56:15whoa, I never thought like someone's
1:56:17into trapeze or something. Whatever. Who
1:56:19cares? Like
1:56:21like, "Wow, that's how you like think
1:56:24about fear as a trapeze artist. Now
1:56:27you're translating that into your
1:56:30business." Like how I overcome fear to
1:56:32do this thing, right? It's it's in like
1:56:36I'm I'm a creative at that. I I paint
1:56:38murals. I do art, you know. Also, like
1:56:41what makes a good artist to be able to
1:56:43take all your different experiences and
1:56:46distill it down into you and then output
1:56:50it into a visual language.
1:56:52>> Nice.
1:56:52>> And I think it's the same way with the
1:56:53business.
1:56:54>> Nice. See, there there's definitely a
1:56:57reason you you're so well thought of and
1:56:59you think about so many little things
1:57:01and so many things in such a deeper
1:57:02level. It's very refreshing and
1:57:04interesting to talk to you.
1:57:06>> Thanks. I'm like really happy we did
1:57:08this and that probably is the reason why
1:57:11you're one of these rare brands which is
1:57:14growing globally which is
1:57:18a D2C brand going global is is very
1:57:22rare. It's it's probably unheard of so
1:57:25fast like that's that's another thing
1:57:28because it's difficult. You usually need
1:57:30like a large giant like universe of the
1:57:32world to go global.
1:57:33>> No. And they usually mess it up.
1:57:37Yeah, like it's it's very difficult. So
1:57:39how how are you going global so fast so
1:57:42nicely and every country is accepting
1:57:44you? I think well I mean you talked to
1:57:48Ravi and Anna and like them like Anna's
1:57:51awesome like you know these people that
1:57:53we work with and I
1:57:56if there's different
1:57:59cuz I don't know the culture of India
1:58:01obviously and you need to work with the
1:58:02localization agency but a lot of
1:58:04localization agencies that you typically
1:58:06tend to work with look at your product
1:58:08they look at your marketing documents
1:58:10and then they're just like okay let's
1:58:11just sell the products into these
1:58:13different areas
1:58:14what Anna and the team and Lubo and all
1:58:17those guys did who like I talk to all
1:58:19the time and they have the same like fun
1:58:21personality. They have so many unique
1:58:23different perspectives um and they bring
1:58:26to the Indian market with Saga and all
1:58:28those guys to to the table is
1:58:32what are all these fun unique things
1:58:33that Neuro is doing in the US and what
1:58:36is that exact same or similar thing that
1:58:40exists in India that we could tap into.
1:58:43So, you know, they're tapping into like
1:58:44the engineers. Like, we've been talking
1:58:46about that. They're tapping into the
1:58:47engineers. They're doing these like fun
1:58:49pop-up events that tap into that exact
1:58:52same audience like the influencers that
1:58:54they're using or all like that same they
1:58:57carry that same feeling and brand
1:58:59tonality. And if you don't have clarity
1:59:02around and also like I have very hard
1:59:03phone calls with them from time to time,
1:59:05you know, I'm like why the hell are we
1:59:08doing this? This doesn't fit our brand.
1:59:10Because if you lose that essence of the
1:59:12brand, it could be for a different
1:59:13culture and that's fine. But the essence
1:59:15of human beings is still the same
1:59:17>> no matter where you go.
1:59:18>> Yeah.
1:59:19>> And it's the same with the brand. If you
1:59:20lose that essence, then that brand
1:59:22starts turning to this other thing and
1:59:24that's where they fail eventually cuz
1:59:25they're just spending money spending
1:59:26money to try to make something that's
1:59:27not them work.
1:59:28>> But I still didn't get like how are you
1:59:31growing like how every country is
1:59:32accepting you because you hire local.
1:59:34That's why
1:59:35>> local is it? But there has to be
1:59:37something else which is so unique and
1:59:38global that you're you're able to expand
1:59:40this so fast like why
1:59:42>> how is your word or your brand's name is
1:59:47reaching countries before your product.
1:59:49So, I think, you know, I wish it was I
1:59:54wish there was like a formula to it, but
1:59:56you know, like again, like I said at the
1:59:58very beginning of the podcast, um the
2:00:00decisions you make all lead to the
2:00:02synchronicity of timing, which equals
2:00:04luck
2:00:05>> and for us, Joe Rogan has a global
2:00:07audience. We partnered chess.com, the
2:00:09founder of chess.com, Danny, loves our
2:00:11product. So, we partner with chess.com.
2:00:13And guess where more people play chess
2:00:16than any other place in the world?
2:00:17India.
2:00:17>> India. like so we've had this huge
2:00:21audience in India already. We realized
2:00:23that there was a manufacturing hub that
2:00:24we could create in India that was
2:00:26effective.
2:00:27>> So we launched into it. Now our margins
2:00:29are good. Chess.com is big. People
2:00:31listen to Joe Rogan out there. Um that
2:00:34was like a really easy entry point from
2:00:36the big launch thing we were talking
2:00:39about earlier. Like oh how do you make a
2:00:40big splash before you enter into a a
2:00:44country? And then when you back that up
2:00:47with all the little micro influencers
2:00:49that are adjacent to it, now we start
2:00:52growing. And then how do you keep
2:00:54amplifying that? We haven't started with
2:00:56creators yet in India, but we have
2:00:58started with influencers. And that's a
2:01:00start into getting into creators. And
2:01:03now there's already chess.com.
2:01:07How do we blast out to all the chess
2:01:08influencers in the world, you know, like
2:01:10into the Indian market? Like that's
2:01:12already a community we tapped into.
2:01:14That's their Pilates.
2:01:15>> Yeah.
2:01:16>> Right.
2:01:17>> And now what's the next thing?
2:01:18>> Yeah. Mental Pilates. Now what's the
2:01:20next thing? And keep going and keep
2:01:21going.
2:01:22>> And so we tried to be conscious about
2:01:24the places we we launched. You know,
2:01:26India wasn't really on my list of places
2:01:28to launch. But it like all just made too
2:01:30much sense from the the fact that it's a
2:01:33young developing economy, engineers, uh
2:01:36chess chess being big there. Um the
2:01:38influencers that we use in the US
2:01:40translating to the places over there.
2:01:42Um,
2:01:43so it's it's so funny that again
2:01:48decision and timing equals
2:01:49synchronicity. The synchronicity of all
2:01:51those things that we were doing in the
2:01:53US happened to line up with a great team
2:01:56that we had in India to be able to
2:01:57launch and find success there very very
2:02:00quickly.
2:02:00>> And why India?
2:02:02There are so many countries in the
2:02:04world.
2:02:04>> Dude, I mean all again all those things.
2:02:07India, dude, India's on the comeup.
2:02:11It's pretty sick like you saw the come
2:02:13up
2:02:14>> like
2:02:15>> American movie culture there you start
2:02:17seeing like more Indian actors Bollywood
2:02:20is the second biggest
2:02:23like conglome media entertainment
2:02:25conglomerate in the world there are
2:02:28people like um what was his name Khan um
2:02:32like there's some people that have more
2:02:34followers than like
2:02:36>> are you talking about Shadow Khan
2:02:37>> Shadow Khan he's like a god you know
2:02:40it's crazy is in India. Yeah.
2:02:42>> But like and then again there's so much
2:02:46investment that was going and I actually
2:02:48have investments in India too because
2:02:51the community of all those people that
2:02:53were being outsourced to the United this
2:02:55is getting into econ economics by the
2:02:57way but um what's so crazy is like 10
2:03:00years ago all these Indian engineers uh
2:03:03there was a workforce being built out
2:03:05there because they were all outsourced
2:03:06labor into the United States. Now that
2:03:08we've reached this technological
2:03:10revolution that's global, those
2:03:13engineers are leaders in their industry
2:03:17building technological hubs in India
2:03:20which has a lot of resources, a lot of
2:03:23incredible universities with young
2:03:24talent becoming even better engineers
2:03:28and a lot of opportunities because India
2:03:32is going from a third world economy like
2:03:35similar to how China was like 20 30
2:03:37years ago, with dang it's like it was
2:03:40becoming a third world second world into
2:03:42a first world economy and I think the
2:03:44that gap of the middle class is creating
2:03:47a lot of um incredible space for people
2:03:52to build innovation technology and
2:03:54things like that
2:03:55>> true and I completely agree with
2:03:57everything that you said and more agree
2:03:59I agree more with the part that you said
2:04:01India's young ambitious audience so
2:04:04that's a product like these like make
2:04:05complete sense because The ambition is
2:04:08on the rise like you
2:04:10>> you have these you have so many
2:04:12countries which are
2:04:14who are coming back and but the age is
2:04:18not on the side.
2:04:19>> Yeah.
2:04:19>> The you know the ambition the hustle is
2:04:22not on their side. The income is on
2:04:24their side and they're making more money
2:04:25and they're getting richer and richer
2:04:27but the hustle and ambition and this all
2:04:29innovation wave India is like just
2:04:32getting started.
2:04:33>> It's pretty cool man.
2:04:34>> Pretty cool. It's the time to be in
2:04:36India and keep building it.
2:04:38>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:04:39>> Here's a question. What's the most
2:04:42expensive mistake you made during your
2:04:47during your neuro career?
2:04:49>> So many expense. I mean,
2:04:51>> there one mistake that all founders
2:04:53should avoid and you were like I you put
2:04:55in bunch of dollars and then you got
2:04:57like
2:04:58>> dude. I'm gonna name a hundred mistakes,
2:05:01man. Like there's so many mistakes. I
2:05:04mean, even going from
2:05:07like certain packaging, you're investing
2:05:10into certain places you're ordering
2:05:12packaging from, um, influencers that
2:05:15you're hiring that do like literally
2:05:16nothing, although they have a huge name.
2:05:18It's like, how does someone with
2:05:20millions of followers not like do
2:05:21generate any money?
2:05:23>> Zero links.
2:05:24>> But yeah, it's it's mind-blowing. Um, so
2:05:31let me flip that question because this
2:05:33is something I' I've mentioned before
2:05:34and it's um it's a great story
2:05:37>> and it's what allowed us to become
2:05:39friends with one of the sharks on Shark
2:05:41Tank.
2:05:42>> And go back Daniel Lubetski, founder of
2:05:43Kindar.
2:05:45>> It wasn't necessarily a mistake, but
2:05:49um it was a little bit of planning that
2:05:52could have happened with our trademark.
2:05:55Uh we secured it for our category gum
2:05:58and mints everything. Um it was very
2:06:00strong and we went on Shark Tank as Nuro
2:06:03and after we launched you know to us it
2:06:06was very successful like although we
2:06:08didn't get a deal
2:06:10a company owned by someone worth $100
2:06:13million came in and sued us.
2:06:16>> Why?
2:06:16>> Uh because she she had a company called
2:06:18Neuro Drinks that she was just like you
2:06:21took my name this that I'm worth all
2:06:23this money. Yeah, I'm going to sue you
2:06:24guys into the ground. And Ryan and I I
2:06:27just remember it was like that would
2:06:29have been the most expensive. I mean, it
2:06:31would have bankrupted our company for
2:06:33sure because this person had so much
2:06:34money and we just like we were a
2:06:36startup.
2:06:38>> Ryan DM'd Daniel Lubeki on Instagram,
2:06:43who's worth $3 billion by the way. Um,
2:06:45and was like, "Daniel, you said we could
2:06:48come and ask for your help if we ever
2:06:50needed it on the show." Well, this is us
2:06:53asking for help. We're being sued and
2:06:54our company's going to go under unless
2:06:56someone helps us. Janu Lubetski hopped
2:06:58onto that call with that lady and was
2:07:00like, "Look, lady, I'm worth 30x more
2:07:02than you. Like, I know you're worth
2:07:03hundreds of millions of dollars, but I'm
2:07:04literally worth way more than you. Uh,
2:07:07these are my friends. If you don't back
2:07:08off from this lawsuit, like, I will
2:07:11counter sue you. I will back these guys
2:07:13up and I'll run you into the ground."
2:07:16And the lady backed off. No way. Saved
2:07:19our business. Three years later, we go
2:07:21back on Shark Tank and Daniel Levesky
2:07:23invest in us.
2:07:26>> Isn't that crazy?
2:07:27>> Wow.
2:07:28>> Yeah. So, I think it was one of those
2:07:30things where it's not necessarily a
2:07:31mistake. I mean, we could have done the
2:07:32pre-planning and everything, but it was
2:07:34a moment where it would have destroyed
2:07:35our business.
2:07:36>> And
2:07:38>> there's no mistakes, right? There's no
2:07:39mistakes. Everything's an opportunity to
2:07:41problem solve. That was a moment that we
2:07:44took the opportunity that Daniel said,
2:07:46never close that door, and ask for help.
2:07:49And with that help, we're now the only
2:07:52brand to go back on Shark Tank, who
2:07:53didn't get a deal the first time, get a
2:07:54deal the second time.
2:07:55>> But dude, such a kind human being. He's
2:07:58the best. Kind He literally represents
2:08:02the name of his brand. Kind
2:08:04>> Exactly. This is values.
2:08:07Incredible value. He was not your
2:08:09friend. He had no no vested interest. He
2:08:12didn't even ask a piece of your business
2:08:14after that. Nothing at all. He didn't
2:08:16use that as a leverage be like, "Hey,
2:08:17I'm going to help
2:08:19nothing. He was an entrepreneur that
2:08:21knew how hard it was to be to build a
2:08:24business. And he came and was just like,
2:08:26"These kids are ambitious,
2:08:29young, they're building something great.
2:08:32I'm not going to let a stupid lawsuit
2:08:34hold them back."
2:08:35>> Wow. Pretty cool, right? Very cool. Very
2:08:38good. Um, these are the stories that
2:08:40love I love. This is you in the startup
2:08:44community. You must have heard this a
2:08:45lot. This is what we call pay it
2:08:47forward.
2:08:48>> Exactly.
2:08:49>> Right. And that's why entrepreneurs help
2:08:51other entrepreneurs so much. And I love
2:08:53this community all around the world. No
2:08:55matter what size you are, you're making
2:08:57like $100,000 or you're making like
2:08:58hundred billion. If you're an
2:08:59entrepreneur saying you've done it all
2:09:01your all by yourself,
2:09:03>> you started it. You're the first
2:09:04generation. You know how it is. And you
2:09:06pay it forward.
2:09:07>> It's And you know, you don't see that in
2:09:09the
2:09:10>> in these large corporate greed joints.
2:09:12They don't help. They
2:09:13>> cuz they don't know.
2:09:14>> Yeah. Yeah,
2:09:15>> they've never had to deal with like
2:09:17Daniel was making his bars in his
2:09:19kitchen, you know, like was going
2:09:21through the struggle wearing the Kind
2:09:23bar suit, running around as a like Yeah,
2:09:26he looks like a serious entrepreneur
2:09:27now, but he did all the same things we
2:09:29did.
2:09:30>> Yeah.
2:09:30>> You know,
2:09:31>> this is Dude, this is so amazing.
2:09:34>> It's cool.
2:09:34>> It's the best. Starting a start a
2:09:37business.
2:09:37>> Yeah.
2:09:38>> People will help you. Trust me.
2:09:39>> You the best. It's hard, but it is the
2:09:42most rewarding thing in the world. Yep,
2:09:44it is, man. It's amazing. I I love it.
2:09:47That was such a good story. Ah,
2:09:49>> yeah.
2:09:50>> So, that wasn't that would have been a
2:09:51costly experiment.
2:09:54>> Really costly for you.
2:09:56>> And do you know who doesn't care?
2:09:57Actually, like entrepreneurs care and
2:09:58will help you. Lawyers do not care.
2:10:01>> They'll be like, "Okay, yeah, we'll help
2:10:02you, but
2:10:03>> yeah, give me money."
2:10:04>> How much money do you have in your bank?
2:10:0610 million. I can make it work.
2:10:07>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:10:09Why do you need to know that?
2:10:12>> Nice. Okay. Here's if if an entrepreneur
2:10:16is watching there's someone who want to
2:10:18become an entrepreneur want entrepreneur
2:10:19okay
2:10:20>> wants to build a brand don't know in
2:10:22which category where do you think what
2:10:25is the next category or what is this one
2:10:28idea where somebody could build a
2:10:30billion dollar brand next
2:10:33>> which do you feel like if you were you
2:10:35if you were building it again and you
2:10:36would have built in this category
2:10:38because it's untapped
2:10:40>> I mean there's a boom with AI obviously
2:10:43right now and there's fast sales
2:10:44happening, but I I do think that it's
2:10:46like you're not really building a brand,
2:10:49you know?
2:10:51I do think in the future stress is going
2:10:55to be a very very big thing like we were
2:10:57talking about and we're going to be so
2:11:00digitally trapped. I mean, I have like
2:11:02apps that block my apps like on my
2:11:04phone, you know, so I I try not to be on
2:11:06social media too often, but uh unless I
2:11:09need to. But I think there's going to be
2:11:12a culture of this next generation that's
2:11:16going to want to find fulfillment
2:11:18outside of the digital space. So any
2:11:22product that satisfies that I think will
2:11:26be very very big. I don't know what it
2:11:29is but there is definitely with with
2:11:32every movement there's a counterculture.
2:11:34So there's a way to tap into that
2:11:35counterculture.
2:11:38So stress and and
2:11:41>> cutting down the chaos like just that
2:11:43that kind of like I there's
2:11:46>> what form factor what do you think like
2:11:48so you want to you want to solve stress
2:11:51>> so there's companies like brick that are
2:11:53doing the like over $und00 million have
2:11:56you heard of brick?
2:11:56>> No. What are they doing? It is literally
2:11:58just an attachment to your phone that
2:12:01blocks all your social media and then
2:12:03you put it and then only when you put it
2:12:05on a device like you could access all
2:12:06your social media as much as you want.
2:12:08So when you're out and about like you're
2:12:11present.
2:12:11>> Nice. I like that.
2:12:13>> Such a simple idea, you know, but it's
2:12:15crazy. There's like non-s smartphones
2:12:18coming out now. Like I heard college
2:12:20kids are using Nokia phones again
2:12:22because they want to be more present.
2:12:24Like I I think that's going to be a
2:12:27really big especially with AI the the
2:12:30trust on the internet is deteriorating
2:12:34pretty fast. So, where are people going
2:12:37to go find trust now? In person events,
2:12:40between their friends, smaller
2:12:42communities,
2:12:43you know,
2:12:45>> how do you tap into that? And I don't
2:12:47know a product. I mean, you know, it
2:12:49could be anything like literally
2:12:51>> a gum,
2:12:51>> like a gum. Yeah. It could be anything
2:12:54like a drink. But I I think it has to
2:12:58like exist within that like framework
2:13:01for the future if you're thinking it
2:13:03forward or you ride the wave of what
2:13:06exists now you go crazy on AI like it's
2:13:09it's either.
2:13:10>> Yeah. Yeah. True.
2:13:13>> True. The stress is going to be a big
2:13:15market and usually throughout the
2:13:17history sex, stress, sleep, these are
2:13:19like three biggest markets no matter
2:13:20what you do.
2:13:21>> That's never going to change by the way.
2:13:23That's never ever going to change. And
2:13:25any pick up, any body part,
2:13:29any feeling internal or external, you
2:13:32can just think of these three things and
2:13:34make a product. Just play the match the
2:13:36following and play it.
2:13:37>> Yeah.
2:13:37>> So think about like hair. So hair loss,
2:13:40you can just match like oh because of
2:13:42stress, hair loss, boom. And then
2:13:44>> psychological triggers
2:13:45>> and then you make something out of it.
2:13:46No,
2:13:47>> you want to make let's say lack of sleep
2:13:49then like let's say lack of sleep
2:13:51because of stress because of bad sex
2:13:54because of tessterone up and down
2:13:55whatever like cortisol up and down just
2:13:58stuff like that you can just play match
2:13:59the following between these three and
2:14:01like any body part and you can build a
2:14:03brand
2:14:03>> you know what's so fun
2:14:04>> in a new form factor
2:14:05>> as an economy becomes more and more uh
2:14:10comfortable in many ways and like we
2:14:12live in a very comfortable econ it's a
2:14:14little stressful now like with political
2:14:15tension But people have the opportunity
2:14:20to think about those things like they
2:14:24start thinking more deeply about like
2:14:26how do I
2:14:28better my life in some way. So
2:14:31that's an opportunity like you know I've
2:14:33been talking to my friends about I think
2:14:35perry menopause is really interesting.
2:14:36I'm obviously not a woman, but my wife
2:14:39just gave birth and like I know she's
2:14:42probably going to see it, but all these
2:14:44people, these women, more women got
2:14:47hired into the workforce last year than
2:14:49men did for the first time in a very,
2:14:51very, very long time in American
2:14:53history. And now there's 35 to 40
2:14:5745year-old executive females that want
2:15:00to be as ambitious as males, but their
2:15:02biological systems make it kind of hard
2:15:05because they're going through
2:15:05parmenopause. You know, they're going
2:15:07through like there's just things, right?
2:15:09Like biologically men and women are
2:15:11different. And so I do think there's a
2:15:14major opportunity there for these
2:15:17ambitious women coming into the
2:15:19workforce that are making a real big
2:15:20impact to tap into that community in the
2:15:24same way men got tapped into like maybe
2:15:2610 years prior.
2:15:27>> True. True. I also feel on the other
2:15:30side
2:15:32just like ambitious women as a big
2:15:34category and big opportunity for people
2:15:35to build brands. I think there's a big
2:15:37category and big opportunity for male
2:15:39hormones. Nobody talks about there can
2:15:42be a new category to be built.
2:15:43>> I agree. I agree. How you feel? Right.
2:15:46>> Okay. Here are the last three questions
2:15:49which I ask everybody. Yeah. There's
2:15:51like oneliners.
2:15:53>> So first is
2:15:54>> should I be nervous?
2:15:55>> No. No. No. These are like the basic
2:15:57ones but I like asking them because it
2:15:59tells me a lot about other person. So I
2:16:00I like it.
2:16:02>> What is one advice that nobody should
2:16:04follow?
2:16:06>> Um
2:16:08hard work. it. How do I frame it? Um
2:16:14like I'll sleep when I'm dead. That
2:16:17that's a good way to phrase it. I see
2:16:19these entrepreneurs that work themselves
2:16:21to death. You know, they're like sleep
2:16:23is for the week. I was like this, you
2:16:26know,
2:16:26>> I was like this till 6 months ago.
2:16:29>> And don't you feel better?
2:16:31>> Much better.
2:16:32>> And you're thinking more clearly. And do
2:16:34you know the most important thing for a
2:16:36leader is this? How your brain works.
2:16:38And when you're sleeping 2 3 4 hours a
2:16:40night, I mean, which I was doing, I was
2:16:42sleeping like I would do this thing
2:16:43called the Superman cycle. I would sleep
2:16:45for literally an hour and a half, force
2:16:48myself to wake up, work for 4 hours,
2:16:50sleep an hour and a half like throughout
2:16:52the day. It was I I killed myself. It
2:16:55was crazy. So, this idea of I'll sleep
2:16:58when I'm dead. I'm going to work my ass
2:16:59off right now and I don't need sleep is
2:17:02advice no one should follow. I mean
2:17:05actually the David Sinclair episode cuz
2:17:07we were talking about it also. Um the I
2:17:10think like the four things stop drinking
2:17:12so much, sleep well and go work out and
2:17:14then uh don't be stressed.
2:17:17>> Simple things.
2:17:18>> Simple things but that I think is a good
2:17:20mantra for how you could operate at your
2:17:22highest level.
2:17:23>> True. True. What is the most
2:17:25extraordinary thing you want to do next?
2:17:27I think there's so we only have one
2:17:30planet to live on and um very
2:17:32unfortunately I think as human beings
2:17:35and with innovation and the beauty of
2:17:36innovation um we destroy a lot of
2:17:40resources to be able to get there. I
2:17:43think there's an incredible opportunity
2:17:45and untapped opportunity with the ocean.
2:17:48how many things are undiscovered with
2:17:50the ocean that I would love to go into,
2:17:53especially as someone that I love spear
2:17:55fishing, you know, sustainable practices
2:17:57to catch fish. Um I think uh I grew up
2:18:01next to the ocean. I love surfing, all
2:18:02those things. It's so the next
2:18:05extraordinary thing that I would love to
2:18:07dive into um one of them is how do we
2:18:12build more sustainable ecosystems
2:18:15leveraging
2:18:16the largest
2:18:18um the largest resource we have which
2:18:21makes up 70% of the world the ocean.
2:18:25>> Nice. What cost did you pay to become
2:18:28the founder of a brand which is one of
2:18:30the fastest growing brands in the world?
2:18:35So,
2:18:36you know, I've never had a W2, like I
2:18:38said, like an employment document.
2:18:41The first
2:18:43after college, my friends got tech jobs.
2:18:47They were making good money. I was
2:18:50sleeping on couches. I was staying in
2:18:52hospitals, you know, I was picking up
2:18:54odd jobs. And through that process, I
2:18:57unfortunately lost friends who
2:19:00didn't like know how to hang out with me
2:19:02during those times, obviously because
2:19:04they were making so much money in tech.
2:19:06Um,
2:19:08it was a blessing in disguise because
2:19:10those friends that I lost during that
2:19:12time period, I realized weren't really
2:19:14true friends though. And then those
2:19:16friends that even who did have those
2:19:18tech jobs who are still like some of my
2:19:19best friends now
2:19:22stuck with the ambitions that we had
2:19:26knowing that like we were doing
2:19:28something great to create what we're
2:19:29doing. So, um
2:19:33I don't know. I I guess the sacrifices I
2:19:35I didn't really live like a a typical,
2:19:38you know, like I didn't party that much
2:19:39in college because I was fighting all
2:19:41the time as a professional fighter and I
2:19:42was traveling, but that's like the only
2:19:45world I knew. So, it doesn't feel like
2:19:47it doesn't feel like I missed out on
2:19:49anything. Like I lived a great life.
2:19:51After college, I did I wanted to do my
2:19:53own thing. So I did all these things
2:19:55that were stressful and tiring and
2:19:57whatever, but
2:19:59I had so many crazy experiences because
2:20:02of that, you know. So like
2:20:05that question
2:20:07like you can see the optimism in me, you
2:20:09know, like
2:20:10>> I don't even think about stuff like
2:20:12that. Like I don't even think about like
2:20:14>> there are no sacrifice.
2:20:15>> Yeah. Like there's no sacrifices.
2:20:17Everything is for a reason and that's
2:20:19why I'm here and I'm grateful to be here
2:20:20obviously. But the friends that you lost
2:20:22during the process, the sleep that you
2:20:24lost or like the maniac that you became,
2:20:26all of that or would you do it again?
2:20:28>> Oh yeah.
2:20:29>> Oh yeah.
2:20:30>> So there's no sacrifices. Love it.
2:20:31>> There's no sacrif Yeah. It's all it was
2:20:33all worth it. No regret.
2:20:34>> And it's going to be worth it. Pressure
2:20:36makes diamonds. Like just you just kind
2:20:38of have to keep going, you know? Like
2:20:39everything is worth it if you believe
2:20:41it's going to be worth it. But you have
2:20:43to believe.
2:20:44>> Yeah. Law of attraction.
2:20:45>> Yeah. I I believe in all of those things
2:20:47as well. Yeah.
2:20:48>> Well, thank you so much. It was a
2:20:50pleasure having you. Thank you so much
2:20:51for doing this
2:20:53>> and bearing with us for a couple of
2:20:54hours.
2:20:55>> That was great. Thanks, man.
2:20:57>> Thank you. Thank you for watching this
2:20:59episode till the end. We would love to
2:21:01know what you liked or disliked about
2:21:03this episode and which guests you would
2:21:05like to see on the show. Let us know in
2:21:07the comments. Your feedback help us
2:21:09improve and make every episode a little
2:21:12better. I'll see you next time. Until
2:21:14then, keep figuring out.

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