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Buckley Speaker Series: Christina Hoff Sommers | Trigger Warnings, Male-Shaming & Moral Panic — Transcript

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0:10well hello everybody thank you for
0:11joining us uh I am Zach young I'm the
0:13president of the willth Buckley program
0:16at Yale today we are delighted to be
0:18able to host Dr Christina Hoff Summers
0:22um but first I would like to just
0:24briefly describe who we are as the
0:26Buckley program and what exactly we do
0:28so the Buckley program is an
0:30organization that was founded by Yale
0:32students a few years ago in order to
0:35promote intellectual diversity at Yale
0:37and to expand political discourse we
0:41host uh debates seminars discussions we
0:44fund summer internships we also do a
0:47range of other activities if you're
0:49interested in learning more about the
0:50Buckley program I would suggest
0:52contacting Adam Ericson he is our
0:54membership director and we're also going
0:55to have a new application um semester
0:59open up very soon for new Buckley
1:01fellows contact Adam if you're
1:03interested we delighted to have Dr
1:05Christina Hoff Summers with us she is a
1:07resident scholar at the American
1:08Enterprise Institute she's also the
1:11noted author of numerous books including
1:13who stole feminism the war against boys
1:16and freedom feminism uh she's also a
1:19former professor of philosophy and she
1:21has a best-selling textbook on ethics
1:24she also has an active Twitter following
1:26and she has been featured on MSNBC Fox
1:29News and a show that many of us are well
1:31aware of The Daily Show with John
1:33Stewart um so I could certainly say more
1:36but I'd rather clear the floor uh please
1:39welcome give a warm buckly welcome for
1:41Dr off Saunders good afternoon our early
1:43evening it's so wonderful to be here a
1:46guest of the Buckley program and to be
1:49back in New England my old stomping
1:51ground are there any Patriots fans here
1:54oh my goodness not too many oh good back
1:57in the back yes well I'm a great
1:59Patriots fan although I'm a little
2:00worried about the latest Scandal did you
2:02hear about that well I think it's
2:04inflated I don't think we should worry
2:06about it
2:09overblown but they should uh real I
2:13better not say this but never mind I
2:14will continue um this afternoon I am
2:18going to talk about the need to reform
2:22feminism I think it is a movement that
2:24needs an infusion of new ideas and new
2:27directions and um
2:30if you ask typical American are you a
2:32feminist 75% say no they people don't
2:37identify with a movement that is
2:39symbolic of the liberation of women
2:41which is one of the great achievements
2:43of Western
2:44Civilization um so I think it's time to
2:47reboot feminism I am going to propose a
2:50new school which I think uh will greatly
2:53improve the numbers of people who would
2:54identify as feminists I call it Freedom
2:56feminist Freedom feminism now I know
2:59some of you are thinking uh well
3:03feminism is just fine thank you very
3:04much we don't need your new uh School of
3:07feminism others are
3:09thinking uh who others who are not a
3:12fans of feminism may be
3:14thinking uh why why reform it why why
3:18bother with it at all it's so misguided
3:21and and irritating just you know it's
3:23like reforming the Aven flu just let it
3:27go uh well
3:30if I do my job today I will persuade
3:33many of you maybe most of you I hope
3:36that freedom feminism is our best hope I
3:39think it provides a path away from
3:41today's very strident gender Wars I
3:45think it also could lead to a more just
3:47and and happy Society so um oh and by
3:52the way I think it can improve your
3:53personal life even your love life but
3:55and I'll touch on that so before um
3:59giving you this elixir of love I want to
4:02tell you a little bit about myself my
4:04background uh before uh well actually
4:08back in the last century uh in the early
4:1090s I was a feminist academic in good
4:14standing I was invited to feminist
4:16conferences I was asked to review papers
4:18for uh feminist philosophy journals my
4:21classes were cross-listed with women's
4:23studies I was never sure why because I
4:25didn't teach feminist Theory but I was a
4:27woman I taught philosophy so it was
4:29feminist philosophy
4:31fine but my my good standing uh that all
4:35it came to an end in 1994 I published a
4:38book called who stole feminism now I
4:41felt the book was strongly feminist in
4:43the classical Equity sense of equality
4:46um but I rejected the idea that American
4:50women are oppressed that you know were
4:53brought were kept down by a patriarchal
4:55oppressive system and that that was the
4:57language that was fashionable at the
4:59time
5:00um and uh so I just I thought that for
5:04the most part feminism classical
5:06equality feminism had been a great
5:08American success story and as I said to
5:10speak of women as second class citizens
5:14or uh you know sub you know subject to a
5:18a masculine Society it just didn't seem
5:20to me to apply in fact it seemed absurd
5:23so in the book I tried to show how
5:25feminism had been taken over in a way at
5:29least in the academy by a very eccentric
5:32group of of gender Scholars and I do
5:34mean eccentric at the time for example
5:37just one quick example there was a a
5:39feminist philosopher and I remember
5:41looking at her textbook and she had
5:43dedicated it to the women of my women
5:45studies ovular in the spring of whatever
5:4892 and I hadn't heard the word ovular
5:51before and I was curious about it and I
5:53walked to the dictionary to look it up
5:55only to realize before I opened the
5:58Webster that she had made it up she
6:01didn't like the word seminar and you can
6:04understand why the very essence the root
6:06word is associated with a very essence
6:08of male power and so she replaced it
6:12with an equivalent now this was funny it
6:15was amusing maybe witty maybe uh but she
6:18wasn't kidding and U so anyway in the
6:21book I tried to show that these
6:24theorists were taking it off in too many
6:27exotic directions leaving most women
6:29behind
6:30and
6:32um when it first came out I received fan
6:36letters from feminists A few from Erica
6:39Jong was I don't know if you has anyone
6:41heard of Erica Jong he still fear of
6:42flying the first kind of pro-ex feminist
6:45uh and uh naen strawson who was
6:47president of the ACLU she wrote me a
6:49letter even Iris Murdoch this wonderful
6:52brilliant British novelist uh however
6:55for the most part I did not receive fan
6:57mail in fact it would not be an exagger
6:59ation to say I was excommunicated from a
7:01religion I did not know existed um and
7:05my colleagues and and I lost some
7:06friends I was I was subjected to a
7:09colorful attack for my heresies uh many
7:12feminist activist academics did not um
7:15well they remained convinced that the
7:17American society was oppressive for
7:19women that it was an an oppressive
7:22patriarchy they did not appreciate my
7:23please for
7:25moderation and some called me a backlash
7:28or a traitor to my my gender anti-woman
7:31even a non-w woman one one critic
7:34referred to let's see Christina Hoff
7:36Summers and Margaret Thatcher those two
7:38female
7:40impersonators well uh just as an aside I
7:44should tell you that this is not easy
7:46for my for my parents um I lost my Dad
7:49recently but my my mom and dad were my
7:53mom's still very liberal so I mean wow
7:56you can't be more liberal than my mom
7:58and dad uh and uh they were dismayed to
8:01find their daughter we're all very close
8:03but they were dismayed to find me
8:04reviled by people they admired like I
8:06don't know glorious Dynam and then
8:08occasionally praised by people they
8:10thought were diabolical my father would
8:12in the car sometimes insist on uh
8:14listening to Rush limbo just to get his
8:16blood pressure up you know get really
8:18mad and mother would say darling turn it
8:20off it upsets you no not that man turn
8:22it down and as soon as mom was out of
8:24the car Dad would turn it on and get
8:25really mad and one day he was driving
8:28and and limbo had read something of mine
8:30and and and said oh well this is good
8:32this Christina hop Summers my dad almost
8:35lost control of the
8:37car uh but whatever you know he he
8:40remained to the end very proud of me
8:41every time I did anything he would rush
8:43out and get a copy of an interview or an
8:46article and on one occasion I had been
8:48interviewed by Playboy magazine and dad
8:51wanted to see it but what do you do when
8:53you're an 80 plus Old Gentleman living
8:56in at that time they they're from
8:58California but they were living in
8:59Vermont California was too conservative
9:01they went to
9:03Vermont and in Vermont but my dad
9:06thought I'm not going to go there was a
9:07little store everybody in the town in
9:09this Brattleboro store everybody knew
9:11you so Daddy went across the border to
9:13the more Le less puritanical Keen New
9:16Hampshire to get the Playboy but even
9:18there he was nervous and he felt he had
9:20to explain himself to the clerk and he
9:22said I'm only buying this because my
9:24daughter's in
9:27it well anyway um to the topic at hand
9:31um I am not a backlashers I hope a
9:34traitor no a female impersonator I don't
9:37think so um I am a former philosophy
9:40Professor with a respect for logic clear
9:43thinking and Rules of
9:44Evidence and um and I hope basic
9:47fairness so uh I promise you that if I
9:50say anything the next I hope I keep this
9:52I was going to time myself but I never
9:54quite got it together would someone
9:56raised my hand after I've gone on for 32
9:58minutes okay okay what does that mean
10:01you'll give me a 10-minute
10:03warning oh my God
10:06okay uh okay
10:09um anyway if I say anything right now
10:13that strikes you as wrong or illogical
10:15or or just plain bloody-minded as the
10:18British say um give me good reasons um
10:21and I'll consider your objections and I
10:24change my mind sometimes so I'm I try to
10:26be intellectually open I think it's a
10:28very crucial intellectual virtue I don't
10:30always succeed but I I try mightily so
10:34Freedom feminism Freedom feminism is a
10:37style of feminism which I submit is a
10:41great improvement over what we have now
10:43it stands for the moral social and legal
10:45equality of the Sexes it affirms for
10:48women what it affirms for everyone it
10:51and and that would be dignity
10:53opportunity personal Liberty now it
10:56differs from most contemporary schools
10:58of feminism in one critical
11:03way it accepts the fact that taken as a
11:07group the Sexes are somewhat
11:10different uh if Freedom feminism has a
11:12first principle it is this one in the
11:15pursuit of happiness men and women tend
11:17to take somewhat different paths now I
11:20know some of you are going to get
11:21nervous and think essentialism and what
11:23is she talking about hear me out now a
11:26few years ago I came across an article
11:29in uh it was a 200 this was a few years
11:32ago it was an older article from 20 2008
11:34in the Journal of Personality and Social
11:37Psychology this article blew my mind um
11:42because it it had a
11:45paradoxical conclusion it had
11:47paradoxical findings but it seemed to me
11:49to be the closest study I'd ever seen to
11:53to to human reality and let me tell you
11:55what that was uh these researchers
11:58looked at 50 55 societies and they
12:01compare data on gender and personality
12:05now uh throughout the world they found
12:07women tend to be tend I'm not saying
12:10every single woman there are exceptions
12:11I'm talking about the rules they said
12:13women tend to be more nurturing more
12:16risk averse and uh more
12:19emotionally uh
12:21expressive uh while men usually tend to
12:25be a little more competitive more
12:26risk-taking and emotionally flat
12:29that sounds a little pejorative let's
12:31say say
12:32stoical now of course as I said there
12:35are exceptions I'm talking about just
12:37overall patterns now the most
12:40fascinating finding was this one they
12:42found that personality differences
12:44between men and women are the largest
12:48and most robust in the more prosperous
12:51egalitarian educated
12:53societies now according to the authors
12:56nations with very high levels of human
12:58development that means you know people
12:59with you know long uh life expectancy
13:03high levels of literacy education
13:06economic
13:07wealth these are likely to have the
13:09largest sex differences in
13:11personality H A New York Times science
13:14column to summarized the study this way
13:16it looks as if the personality
13:18differences between men and women are
13:19smaller in traditional cultures and you
13:22know in rural India or Zimbabwe than in
13:25the Netherlands or the United States a
13:27husband and a stay-at-home wife in
13:29patriarchal batswana may be more seem to
13:31be more alike than working couples in
13:33Denmark or New
13:35York now why should that be how can that
13:38be well the authors of the study
13:40hypothesize that prosperity and equality
13:45bring people just greater opportunities
13:47for self-realization for
13:49self-actualization that if you have
13:51wealth and freedom and health and
13:52education it empowers men and women to
13:55be who they truly are and it is
13:58conspicuous ously the case that Gay
14:00Liberation has thrived in in
14:04post-industrial advanced Highly Educated
14:06societies that's where we see the most
14:08advantes for the for the lb gqt
14:11Community uh more opportunities to
14:14embrace their identities the
14:16crosscultural
14:17research uh suggests this is not
14:20conclusive but to me it was very
14:23suggestive H to the point of as I said
14:27uh just striking me as profound
14:30gender differentiation if they're right
14:32may not it's not always a sign of
14:34Oppression it can be a sign of
14:37well-being of freedom of Happiness H now
14:40let me get you give you an example I
14:42recently read an article uh this was
14:44just on a Blog at the Wharton School uh
14:47someone was lamenting the pity of women
14:49engineers and they held up China and
14:51Russia as Superior examples of equality
14:55uh according to this post quote in China
14:5740% of Engineers are women and the
14:59former USSR they account for about 58%
15:02of working
15:04Engineers I didn't check her statistics
15:06but that's what she said now the author
15:08blames uh workplace biases and
15:11stereotypes for the fact that women in
15:12the United States earn only about 20% of
15:15doctorates in engineering well uh what
15:18if American women what if it turns out
15:20that we earn fewer doctorates in
15:22engineering because we don't have to
15:24study engineering uh we have more
15:26opportunities to pursue what interests
15:29Us in other words if you're in a country
15:32where you have to study something that
15:34is so uh you know connected to your
15:37well-being and your family survival but
15:39what if you are a little more free
15:42economically and you can study art
15:45history or anthropology or Celtic
15:47languages I don't know uh philosophy is
15:50what I did um not practical but uh uh
15:56interesting so it women it maybe that
15:59women have far more opportunities to
16:02pursue careers that interest them now
16:05American women are behind men in
16:07engineering but guess what we're way
16:09ahead in both Bas and phds in Humanities
16:13in biology and social sciences Health
16:16Sciences veterinary medicine it was once
16:19almost all male now it's increasingly
16:21female dominated our best vet schools
16:24are approaching 70 80%
16:27female um so if you look at despite
16:30years of Consciousness raising and a few
16:32generations of feminism men and women
16:34are not doing the same things even if
16:36you broke down the majors at this
16:38college um you would find for for
16:41example a lot we we talk about the wage
16:43Gap we you could help close a wage Gap
16:46right now today by if you are typical
16:48maybe you're not but if this were a
16:49typical uh sample of of American
16:53undergraduates uh men are much more
16:56likely to study the highly remunerative
16:59uh Majors uh you you can earn quite a
17:02lot if you study uh let's see the
17:04highest would be petroleum engineering
17:07Naval architecture and metalurgy oh
17:11God uh okay it's those are it's like
17:15Naval architecture 97% men petroleum
17:18engineering
17:2087% now women uh actually are over
17:24represented in fulfilling Fields I will
17:27tell you that but lower paying early
17:29childhood education 97% female and this
17:32has hardly changed for for Generations
17:35if if anything there are more women than
17:36ever social work that's always been
17:39women but now it's
17:4088% uh communication disorders like
17:43special needs teachers and at 94% female
17:47and year after year um researchers at
17:50the Pew foundation and and Katherine
17:53hakee at the London School of Economics
17:55would ask women what is your preferred
17:58women and men what is your ideal if you
18:01you could have the perfect lifestyle
18:03about 20% of women are want to be
18:06full-time careerists about 20% want to
18:10stay home and they don't do not wish to
18:12work unless they have to uh 60%
18:15Katherine hakee calls them
18:17adaptivesportsmen.org
18:28entail some some part-time work a
18:31majority of mothers according to the Pew
18:33Foundation more than 60% said they would
18:35prefer to work part-time but fathers
18:37don't with fathers it was uh 79% said
18:40they would prefer a full-time work so
18:44now I look at this and I look at these
18:47changes at at these persistence
18:49differences that women do overall
18:52Prevail in the caring and nurturing
18:54professions and men are in the saving
18:57and rescuing and people free zone
19:00professions um now as a as a as a
19:03freedom feminist I respect preferences
19:06and for me a good Society is one uh
19:08defined but with high levels of human
19:10satisfaction not statistical parity uh
19:14and so so Freedom feminism stands for
19:16equality of
19:17opportunity uh but it it doesn't expect
19:21same sameness of results now I know
19:24critics I know what they're going to say
19:26uh they will say because they've told me
19:28you're your views are reactionary and
19:30harmful to women because they don't take
19:32into account how preferences are shaped
19:34by
19:35culture uh women who major in social
19:37work or education uh rather than
19:40petroleum engineering or Metallurgy
19:42they're not really making free choices
19:43they are making self-defeating choices
19:46uh that will undermine their long range
19:49economic
19:50well-being or the American Association
19:52of University women put it this way
19:54women's personal choices are fraught
19:56with inequities and uh and it the AAW
20:00speaks of women being pigeonholed into
20:02the pink collar jobs of of in health and
20:05education and according to the National
20:07Organization for Women powerful sexist
20:09stereotypes steer women and men towards
20:11different education training and career
20:14paths now here's my answer to that I
20:18agree that men and women's choices uh
20:22could we could say they're not truly
20:24free in a society where where they have
20:27little access to education
20:29uh information about the world but we
20:32don't live in that kind of society uh
20:34American and European women are among
20:36the most educated informed
20:38self-determining people in human history
20:41and it's it seems to me a little
20:44matronizing if you will uh to say that
20:47their choices are not free I mean how do
20:50we know whether Hardline feminists at
20:52the National Organization for Women how
20:54do we know that what they're doing was
20:56the result of free choices maybe they
20:58were all all sorts of burdensome
21:00stereotypes promoting them in their in
21:02their Direction um look I I was a
21:05philosophy freser for more than 20 years
21:07I can tell you we're not going to
21:08resolve this question about Free Will
21:10and and determinism today philosophers
21:13have been debating it for more than
21:142,000 years uh no resolution in sight so
21:19I think for the moment we should air on
21:21the side or on the side of Common Sense
21:24and Credit One Another with agency now
21:28I'm not saying that you shouldn't take
21:30your your little daughter or your friend
21:32or if you're a teacher and encourage
21:34them to try new things try new Fields
21:37find ways to make it interesting of
21:39course but in the end you have to accept
21:43the choice and and maybe even accept
21:46what as a freedom feminist I believe
21:49that in the pursuit of happiness men and
21:51women take somewhat different paths and
21:53there may be a limit to how much that is
21:56going to be changed now uh so far my
21:59point is that uh more than other schools
22:01of thought I feel that freedom feminism
22:04is more respectful of men and women and
22:07just more accommodating to to human
22:09reality but I'm going to go further I am
22:11going to say that freedom feminism is
22:13also more Progressive it is more
22:16forward-looking than
22:18other yeah more more Progressive more
22:21more liberal in a way uh than other
22:23forms of feminism and let me explain by
22:26way of an example from Sweden
22:29now the sedes can be remarkably thorough
22:33in their pursuit of gender parity like a
22:37few years ago there was a feminist
22:38political party that proposed a law
22:41requiring that men sit while
22:45urinating less messy more equal uh in
22:492004 the leader of Sweden's left party
22:52feminist Council goodin schan sounds
22:56more German but never mind she osed a
22:59man tax a special tariff to be levied on
23:01men to pay for all the violence and
23:03Mayhem wrought by their sex men for
23:06their part uh suggested that women pay a
23:08special tax every time they crossed a
23:11bridge that men had built I don't know
23:12they wanted to get back at them this
23:15would not end well for
23:17anyone uh but anyway there is a school
23:19called ealia ealia is a state sponsored
23:23School in Stockholm and it is dedicated
23:26to eradicating the gender dis iction and
23:29in this school there are no boys and
23:31girls just friends and buddies they're
23:34um they've replaced classic fairy tales
23:37like Cinderella Sleeping Beauty oh no no
23:40these have been replaced by Tales like
23:42two giraffes adopt uh some abandoned
23:45crocodile
23:47eggs ealia gives the children according
23:50to one
23:51teacher teacher said it gives them a
23:53fantastic opportunity to be whoever they
23:56want to be and she was very excited they
23:58can just they're just going to be you
24:01know I don't know I I some I sort of see
24:03that do you remember that character Pat
24:04in Saturday Night Live who was you know
24:07androgynous being but you have to see
24:10the school and I'm going to quote
24:11someone who did see the school um it
24:14turns out that it's it's actually a
24:18fantastic opportunity not for the kids
24:20but for adults to coerce micromanage and
24:24police children because children will
24:27lapse into convention
24:29gendered play if you leave them alone
24:30for too long and this has turned out to
24:32be a huge problem in the school in their
24:36efforts uh to get the children liberated
24:38from the constraints of gender they have
24:40had to impose their own rigid little
24:43regime of you know tabos and uh here is
24:46how a slate author na Natalie Rothchild
24:50describes I don't think this is igalia
24:52it's another gender neutral classroom
24:55one oh it is ealia one Swedish school
24:57got rid of its toy cars because boy boys
25:01gender coded them and ascribed the cars
25:04higher status than other toys another
25:07preschool removed free playtime free
25:10playtime turned out uh to be as a
25:12pedagogue at the school put it when
25:14children play freely stereotyped
25:16patterns are born and
25:19cemented so every detail of the child's
25:22interaction was micromanaged by these
25:24concerned
25:26adults now again few would deny that a
25:30parent a
25:32teacher should should expose a child to
25:35a wide range of toys and play activities
25:37and and you want your child to develop
25:39in all sorts of ways and all possible
25:41interests but what the sweds are doing
25:44in some of their classrooms this is not
25:46all their classrooms these are these are
25:47some extremes it goes beyond encouraging
25:51it it goes beyond sort of urging
25:53children to try new things they are
25:55requiring it now today
25:59many experts on gender will tell you
26:01that um tolerance understanding uh that
26:05we should there are gender variant kids
26:07who completely defy the stereotypes of
26:09their sex a boy who wants to dress up
26:11like a princess a persistent interest in
26:13a girl who and it used to be they wanted
26:15to subject these kids to some kind of
26:16radical behavior modification more
26:18enlightened Theory says leave them alone
26:21and and you know to be just allow them
26:24to be who they are and as a freedom
26:27feminist I say yes I agree with that but
26:28do that for the for the kids who are
26:31conventionally gendered as
26:33well do it for both that's why I say I
26:36feel this is more Progressive uh the
26:39swedes should extend their tolerant
26:41understanding to the gendered identity
26:43and preferences of of the vast majority
26:45of children they should be like My
26:47Heroine Vivian gusen paly now Vivian
26:50gusen paly is a beloved kindergarten
26:52teacher now retired she's in her
26:5580s this is not just any kindergarten
26:57teacher she won the uh MacArthur genius
27:00award it's a genius teacher 30 years ago
27:03she published a classic children's book
27:05called boys and girls superheroes in the
27:07doll corner now it's nearly impossible
27:10to imagine anyone writing a book quite
27:13like this today she encouraged the kids
27:15in her class to try all kinds of
27:17activities and but she accepted that
27:20they would separate by gender they
27:22always did and at the time she wrote her
27:24book uh Luke Skywalk Walker and and
27:27Darth were all the rage H with the boys
27:30in her kindergarten class and some at
27:33the time there was some concern that
27:35girls you know don't have their
27:36superheroes and maybe we should get
27:38girls to play with Luke's and and Darth
27:42um and here's what she wrote she said
27:45that um it's true that the girls do not
27:48partake in the boys super hero play but
27:53then she looked very carefully at the
27:55doll
27:56corner and she said
27:59that girls are interested in their own
28:01kind of domination boys imaginative play
28:04yes it involves a lot of conflict
28:06imaginary violence but girls play it
28:08appears to be more gentle and peaceful
28:10but this very perceptive teacher noticed
28:12that uh girls fantasies can be very
28:15aggressive exciting intense but
28:17different that's equal but different uh
28:20there was a lot of conflict pesky
28:22characters imaginary power struggles and
28:24then she said I love this line mothers
28:26and princesses are as power powerful as
28:28any superheroes the boys can
28:30devise this teacher
28:33appreciated the benefits of of gender
28:36play for both children she had no
28:38Illusions about its
28:40elimination now Freedom feminism is
28:43inspired more by Vivian paly not those
28:47micromanaging sex policing Swedish
28:49School teachers in ealia um there now
28:53there's still a place for sort of
28:55old-fashioned equality feminism and all
28:57of this I mean as a as as a freedom
28:59feminist I want a society where
29:01everything all opportunities are
29:03available to women if they want to be I
29:05want more SE women CEOs or uh I don't
29:08know uh bull fighters no not bull
29:11fighters that's so cruel race car
29:13drivers um I think that we need there
29:16are always going to be women and men who
29:18defy the stereotypes of their sex and in
29:21a a free Society you open the doors to
29:23them and find ways to allow them to
29:26pursue their happiness is Define it um
29:29so what I'm arguing is that equality of
29:33outcome is not necessarily A measure of
29:35wellbe and freedom feminism can make a
29:38place for that now so far I've tried to
29:41justify the core PR principle of Freedom
29:43feminism that the Sexes taken as a group
29:45are different but equal uh but I have
29:49very little time but I quickly want to
29:50assert another principle uh quoting
29:53let's see Emanuel Kant truth is better
29:55than BS well it wasn't Kant but it's a
29:58translation of what he might have said
30:01uh truth is Our Truth should be your
30:03Ally and as a freedom feminist I care a
30:06lot about solid research I do not think
30:09women especially women at risk for
30:11violence or exploitation I do not
30:13believe that women are helped by
30:17exaggeration fake statistics hyperbole
30:21spin
30:22truthiness uh it just in the end it
30:25doesn't work it creates a false picture
30:28and I tell you now with all the
30:30sincerity I can muster today's women's
30:33movement is drowning in misinformation
30:37misinformation if you can excuse the
30:40pun uh it's it's it's saturated with
30:44advocacy data faux
30:47narratives factoids fct toids I can't
30:50take it anymore it's just too much and
30:53it's it's propaganda some of it is is
30:56even hate propaganda against men I mean
30:59there's been just outbreak of misry uh
31:01which is quite astonishing it is
31:03saturated with phony claims now uh how
31:06many times have you heard um you know a
31:09woman is cheated out of you know 25% of
31:12her salary or now they say 23% or one in
31:14five women on campuses sexually
31:16assaulted one in three college men would
31:18rape if they were permitted if they if
31:20they were allowed to do so and wouldn't
31:22get caught one in three American women
31:24are battered or my favorite of all on
31:27Super Bowl Sunday battery increases 40%
31:31this was a statistic I I I discussed in
31:34in whoo feminism and it was taken so
31:36seriously in the 90s that during the
31:38Super Bowl classic they actually ran an
31:40ad I think it was 94 or 95 urging men
31:43remain calm during the game uh now it
31:47turned out in this case it had no truth
31:51it was like a case of telephone tag
31:52somebody had said something it got
31:54repeated it never got corrected one of
31:56the things I've discovered about
31:57feminist myth they can't be corrected as
31:59a as a sociologist said they're harder
32:01to kill than a vampire you can't I I
32:04corrected a whole bunch of them to this
32:05feminist scholar legal scholar and she
32:08didn't believe me they went right back
32:09into her book it's called domestic VI
32:12violence law you can read our Exchange
32:14in The Chronicle of Higher Education
32:16because people were pretty shocked that
32:18what she did but I
32:20digress the fact is these are now as a
32:23as a a feminist violence against women
32:26exploitation bad batter rape these are
32:29serious crimes women are plagued now men
32:33are plagued by even more violence not
32:36sexual violence but other kinds of
32:37violence I just want accuracy and
32:40because I don't think you can have Smart
32:42policies unless you have good research
32:45it's hard to get good research I agree
32:47there all sorts of ways it can go wrong
32:49the feminist research I review over and
32:52over again the ones you keep reading
32:54about it is so it is laughable how
32:57poorly conr constructed the researches
32:59if you've had you know any intro
33:01introduction to social science you will
33:03see that they they play every game in
33:06the book but then if you criticize it
33:08you're thought to be insensitive to the
33:10problem no it's because I care about the
33:12problem that I think women will be
33:13helped by truth and I as I said I think
33:16truth is on the side of compassion
33:18falsehood is no friend so these are
33:21genuine problems um now another bad
33:24thing that's happened is there is now I
33:26see this rape culture Crusade on the
33:28campus a lot of it is a panic like the
33:30like the the daycare Panic or or a kind
33:33of sexual McCarthyism it frightens me
33:36that there are so many women that have
33:37that willfully uh are against uh giving
33:41a young man due process and and the list
33:43of young men subject to Kangaroo Court
33:45Justice is is growing uh young women at
33:48Boston
33:49University put a petition they wanted
33:51the school to cancel Robin Thick because
33:53he's Sayang Blurred Lines and has this a
33:56rape Anthem they said
33:58uh which says I know you want it and
34:00somebody get slate counted about a
34:02thousand songs that have those words but
34:04maybe there's something more going on in
34:05that song I've listened to it I don't
34:07get it but I'm missing something anyway
34:09students at Harvard Law School Harvard
34:11Law School requested trigger warnings in
34:14their classes when sexual assault was
34:16discussed and this poor this Harvard
34:18Professor This brilliant woman she wrote
34:20about it in the New Yorker she said oh
34:22one student had asked a professor please
34:24don't use the word violate as in violate
34:27the law she was triggered by that um so
34:31and here's what she says uh this this
34:33professor from Harvard uh if the topic
34:36of sexual assault were to leave the law
34:38school classroom it would be a
34:39tremendous loss above all to VI victims
34:42of sexual
34:43assault I believe that today campus
34:47feminism these are the extremes but you
34:49all know they are there I think they are
34:51are turning the feminism is uh our
34:56campuses are becoming hostile
34:57environments for due process for free
34:59expression social movements fueled by
35:02paranoia and fantasy tend to be toxic so
35:06as I said it's time to reform feminism
35:09in conclusion I think anybody who truly
35:11cares about the status of women around
35:13the world should be working to create a
35:16women's movement that that resonates
35:18with real men and women we need a
35:20feminism that respects truth and civil
35:22liberties a reality-based Liber you know
35:25Liberty centered scrupulously honest
35:28feminism could greatly help both women
35:31everywhere in the United States
35:32throughout the world it could help men
35:35women children everyone Freedom feminism
35:38is my humble contribution to that effort
35:41so thank you friends and buddies for
35:43listening to me the ular is now
35:47[Applause]
35:56over we will be taking questions um I'm
35:59not sure are there any other mics set up
36:01or is it just the one okay so let's see
36:05does anyone have a
36:08question should I stand up so I was
36:11having a conversation with a few of my
36:14friends a few nights ago and uh I was a
36:16bit confused as to why uh the Title Nine
36:20process was there why uh people who were
36:23raped wouldn't just go to the police and
36:27uh try to get the person uh convicted
36:29and you know they told me well you you'd
36:32have to undergo a rape kit and that
36:34could re-traumatize or traumatize uh the
36:38woman who had already been a victim uh
36:41and I'm curious what your views are on
36:44that if there are ways of uh making the
36:47process better while not removing due
36:51process and how to be sensitive to those
36:54things while still not uh
36:58compromising uh our sense of
37:01honesty a great question and that is the
37:04question that should have been asked a
37:05long time ago and then in that just now
37:07I think it was 28 wonderful Harvard Law
37:09professors wrote a petition that many
37:12many feminists among them and they're
37:14saying let's do that but the law is not
37:18let us stop all forms of sexual
37:20harassment that even that anybody could
37:22even imagine any kind of definition of
37:24harassment let's take all efforts to
37:26stop it no the law has to be let's do
37:29all we can to stop as much as we can
37:32consistent with due process for the
37:34accused you can't get away from
37:37from trying to avoid false accusations
37:40which we we just happen to have a legal
37:42system developed out of the European
37:43Enlightenment which presumes innocence
37:47and so how do you do that now you
37:49mentioned the rape kits that that there
37:51one thing that's frustrating to me
37:53people now think that women at Yale
37:56sophomore re College Kenyan College
37:59they're the most at risk they're if you
38:01look at the statistics that are thrown
38:02around they're more at risk than women
38:04in the war torn
38:06Congo and uh I heard politicians uh
38:10Senators uh mcal and gilbran say women
38:14are most at risk on the college campus
38:16than anywhere else in the country no
38:17they're not it's just false and there's
38:20a great study and and the author Carrie
38:23Ren Cali renison uh looked at the data
38:28and if you track for education and you
38:30track for college attendance women are
38:32much more at risk in in dangerous poor
38:35neighborhoods than they are at at
38:37prestigious colleges they're they're
38:39greater risk so let's just tell the
38:40truth and then talk about how we we have
38:42scarce resources how do we allocate them
38:45and I think rape kits are the first to
38:46thing I also think it's true a lot of
38:49women are it used to be worse but one of
38:51the great things that feminism did in
38:53the 70s as they raised Consciousness
38:55about rape is that and it's the job is
38:58not finished the work of feminism is not
39:00finished because you do need people who
39:03are trained to talk to a woman who has
39:05been traumatized it's a special it is a
39:08special kind of of hideous violation and
39:10they need people who are trained and
39:13know the protocols and don't ask
39:16these uh very offensive questions in the
39:18past when would be implied that it was
39:20her fault or was what were you wearing
39:22or what what is your sexual history and
39:25so we needed the women's movement it
39:27we're not finished but that all that we
39:28should be working for but we we're not I
39:31mean we are a little bit but we're so
39:33carried away now all of Washington is
39:36Will mcal and and Gill brand and even
39:39the president the White House
39:40commissions endless amount of things to
39:42address an epidemic which the best data
39:46we have suggest doesn't exist there's a
39:48problem there's not an epidemic an
39:50epidemic and the problem is far more
39:52serious outside the campus than on
39:54campus that's all
39:58lot
40:04questionsa guys that's prejudicial to
40:07women they don't like to for form no no
40:10okay my
40:12apologies lines are patriarchal
40:19but I I had n for Advantage
40:23because okay so my question uh is
40:26working with your premises um so if we
40:30take the premise to be true that men and
40:32women take slightly different paths
40:33towards happiness um and if we also
40:35observe the second phenomenon that uh
40:37these two paths that are traditionally
40:39chosen like like your example of
40:41engineering and the sciences and
40:43petroleum um if based on the way the
40:46market Works uh those professions are
40:49higher paying um than like professions
40:52in philosophy and the humanities and so
40:53forth uh does that in a sense make a
40:57certain kind of economic equality
41:00impossible or like what are the
41:02implications of those two phenomenon on
41:05um you know equality of positions of
41:07wealth and power there are implications
41:10because it it but you have to factor
41:13more in if you're looking at someone's
41:15overall well-being their how much they
41:17earn is certainly part of it it's a very
41:19important part of it but if you ask men
41:21and women what do you care most about a
41:23job you find big differences men care
41:26more about they will they put High
41:30earnings uh almost at the top and women
41:33they want to be fulfilled there's much
41:35more about I want to help people that's
41:37big with women you may not like it but
41:39that's what we write um another thing is
41:42you have we have massive data about
41:44vocational interests and you will ask
41:47men and women would you rather spend
41:50your time you know the next two weeks uh
41:53putting a machine together and taking it
41:54apart or helping people work through
41:57problems that I don't know if I want to
41:59do either but never mind those are your
42:02choices um now there are men who will
42:05want to help with the problems and there
42:07are women who can't wait to get to that
42:09machine I am not denying that and I
42:11don't I know someone's going to come up
42:12and say well I'm a metallurgist and I'm
42:14a female I know you're there I've met
42:17you and they're these women are
42:19fantastic but they are they know they're
42:20different they always know they are
42:22different and uh just like my son knew
42:24he was different both of them were
42:26English major all his fraternity
42:28Brothers at Vanderbilt and the other at
42:30Penn they were studying economics and
42:32Engineering they were English majors and
42:36uh it was I I I Begg them to change
42:38because it I
42:40thought I still don't understand it but
42:44anyway the fact is they my son in his
42:47Victorian literature class oh his
42:49girlfriend was a computer science major
42:51at vanderbelt he was an English major
42:53her classes were all guys and her and
42:55his classes were him and a lot of girls
42:57he didn't mind it neither did she but
42:59that was what it was so they know they
43:00different but but if you ask people what
43:02are your interests you will find far
43:04more women will say they want to work
43:05with people or living things so biology
43:08is Big with women uh but you will find I
43:10don't know electrical engineering not so
43:13much and um now I think I've always
43:16thought well let's feminize them a
43:18little bit a long time ago I was at a
43:19conference and people were worried about
43:21girls not playing with computers as much
43:23as boys that's been solved but I said
43:25well why don't we have Tinker Bell
43:27computers or you know make them and
43:28people are hissing like H we're not
43:30going to do that but I thought it would
43:31have been nice you know I would have
43:33liked one but um you know to that you
43:36can there might be a way I think there I
43:38would be in favor of that is try to find
43:40a way to make
43:42engineering if you actually they're
43:44doing that they're doing it at Schools
43:45they're showing girls like you can help
43:47people uh suppose there's an earthquake
43:49how can you build a house that won't
43:51fall down and you know then you connect
43:53it to real world and it's easier to
43:55engage a girl if you can make that real
43:57world connection so I would try I I want
44:00to keep trying but what I don't want uh
44:03is the government especially to come in
44:05like you know and and say oh no gender
44:08parity and we're going to use all these
44:11problems and it's discrimination and a
44:12hostile environment no it isn't men and
44:15women are somewhat different and you're
44:17not going to get statistical parody
44:19probably ever but you can get a better
44:22and you can get I also think people that
44:24are in fields they're not really they
44:25they might not have been in often very
44:27the most creative so I like the
44:29crossover but but we should do it in a
44:31spirit of um just sort of
44:33open-mindedness and good-heartedness not
44:36this angry oh it's the patriarchy forget
44:38it it's not the patriarchy it's us next
44:43question on the
44:45topic on the topic of uh the topic of
44:49kind of Freedom feminism's cultural
44:53element it seemed like what you were
44:54saying is that most of the disparities
44:56we see in various job jobs are due to
44:58innate preferences that maybe are
44:59somewhat cultured but are mostly the the
45:02innate differences between men and women
45:04in a job that a lot of people would say
45:07is about helping people but may or may
45:09not be more about power and money that
45:11is to say lawmakers um the kind of
45:14six-fold increase we've seen between the
45:161980s and now in terms of female
45:18lawmakers do you think that mean
45:19obviously it's still in flux we haven't
45:21gotten to a point where I guess people
45:23have kind of have self- selected for
45:26joining their various careers what role
45:28does freedom feminism see for not merely
45:31letting women decide okay I guess I
45:33guess I don't want to run for office or
45:34men kind of tending to choose that and
45:36how much of that is attributable to
45:38things like no one really talks about
45:40men's fitness that much Chris Chris
45:43Chris Christie a notable exception to
45:44that or fashion like Obama's Tweed suit
45:47or something that that those are all
45:48notable for exceptions where women's
45:50clothing dress appearance family status
45:54is always an issue in a way that is
45:56rarely an issue for me it's an issue for
45:57women it's interesting to us look at
45:59women's magazines men's magazines aren't
46:01about fashion women's are I mean women's
46:04magazine women that is what women are
46:06interested and I I find this not you but
46:09I find conventional feminism to be
46:12sexist and and to trivialize women's
46:16interests and yes men like pornography
46:19and we're upset about that some women
46:21like it but a lot of men like it but
46:22women like uh bodice rippers these
46:24romance novels it's different it's equal
46:27maybe the pornography is worse but never
46:28mind that um I'm I'm just saying that so
46:32I don't I don't what what's the problem
46:33I'm not ident the question is women in
46:37public eye who are running for office
46:38are treated in elements come into
46:41campaigns come into the public eye in
46:43their treatment as public officials in a
46:45way that those elements of their public
46:46life would never be a question for men
46:47the question of women what about the
46:49children what about X Y and Z whereas
46:52men are never assume is never assumed
46:53that a man needs to answer those
46:55questions well you know what I think I
46:57think that if you it's hellish to run
46:59for office because suddenly everything
47:00about you is up for grabs men have been
47:02putting up with it and they for years
47:03they get different questions and as you
47:05said no I don't think anyone well
47:07someone would but most people would not
47:10start publicly joking about a woman's
47:13weight and making it you know a constant
47:16uh line and you know the night comic uh
47:20programs but with Chris Christie it is
47:22so I think there's I think there's I
47:25guess my point is
47:27twofold I don't completely disagree with
47:29you because I'm still enough of a
47:31feminist to I I know there there are
47:35barriers and I know that there are
47:37attitudes there's sexism out there and
47:39especially women I mean but we we were
47:43so carried away with this more extreme
47:46kind of of feminism that is almost
47:48grievance collecting and exaggerating
47:50wrongs where there are no wrongs where
47:52there is nuance and it's hard to study
47:55Nuance I think in the nuance once
47:57there's some sexism but I think if
47:59you're a woman there have been very good
48:01studies um at from Georgetown University
48:04about men and women in politics when
48:06women run they they will win as often as
48:09men but the electorate is not sexist it
48:12really depends on what your positions
48:14are if you run the big problem that they
48:17found was that women don't run women
48:21will say oh God I'm not going to do that
48:23and go and live in you know motels in 16
48:26cities and
48:28you
48:28know so we've got to find a way to now I
48:31think the solution is I think more women
48:33are running because we were living
48:35longer and now people can have like two
48:38careers or even if you stayed home you
48:40know the kids are gone if you had your
48:41kids early they're gone by the time
48:43you're 45 or 50 and political careers
48:45are something you you know people seem
48:47to be able to go on and on you can do
48:49that you know you can start in your 50s
48:51or 60s not a lot of careers I think it
48:53might be self-correcting we'll see so
48:57without disagreeing with you entirely
48:59I'm just a little more nuanced yes I
49:00think women face special hassles men
49:03face different ones and people have
49:05always said horrible things about one
49:07another who was it I think it was uh it
49:11was uh Alexander Hamilton was called a
49:15the bastard son of a Scottish what was
49:18it
49:19a what was I don't know some kind of a
49:22Scottish uh bum or something it was true
49:26actually but
49:27um he shouldn't have said it um a
49:31Scottish Bootlegger the bastard son of a
49:33Scottish boot um so it was it was harsh
49:37back then for
49:38men but women weren't running at all
49:42then
49:44so um hello does
49:48this oh oh am I just I'm just holding
49:52okay I'm just holding this okay um so I
49:55think along the Lin of sort of the past
49:57two questions I am interested in uh how
50:00we address the fact that value is
50:02ascribed to outcome so let's just say
50:04men and women have different preferences
50:05and they're able to display them but
50:07they're being manifested within a system
50:09within structures that have already sort
50:12of some degree defined the value of that
50:14outcome so I'm thinking about uh for
50:16instance difference between the pay of a
50:18CEO versus the pay of a kindergarten
50:20teacher right so I'm trying to
50:22understand the intersection of feminism
50:23and income inequality or the way that
50:25we've ascribed value to these pref ref
50:26is already and honestly I think that
50:29we're out of whack the entire system
50:31that what the value we've ascribed to
50:34certain outcomes doesn't make any sense
50:36to me right so even if so so I want to
50:39address how I want to figure out how to
50:41address that connection so for instance
50:43a concrete example I entered the
50:44business school recently I used to be an
50:46art major now I'm in a business and I
50:48didn't now there's this thing called
50:49behavioral Finance which to me almost
50:51seems like a redundancy Finance is
50:54behavioral but there's this so I think I
50:56think all even entering into these def
50:59different preferences the way in which
51:02these different preferences have been
51:03defined are via maybe I don't I hesitate
51:06to say a masculine lens but even the
51:08division between economics art English
51:11these various definitions these
51:13categories have been predefined in a
51:15specific way so so I'm I'm talking about
51:18the structure of our preferences H are
51:21so it's not just these preferences just
51:23exist but they have been pre-structured
51:25and honestly I think with a specific
51:27framework in mind so I want to collapse
51:29the framework yeah but just keep in mind
51:32something about the framework if you
51:33look at men and women in the workpl it's
51:36true women have a a big Misfortune which
51:39is that the nurturing and caring jobs
51:41are not paid that well now one reason is
51:43that a lot of people are good at them
51:45there are a lot of women who are very
51:46good at nurturing and caring and they
51:48don't from all over the world they can
51:50do it and you don't need that much
51:53training to do it compared to some other
51:56jobs men however do almost all of the
52:01um of the dangerous jobs the truly if
52:04you look at the death rates of people
52:07that live work on oil rigs or or loggers
52:10or people out on fishing boats or you
52:13know I have never seen a woman you know
52:15on a high-rise building if I look out
52:17and the windows are being cleaned it's
52:18always a man there's like an invisible
52:20Army of men there's a construction site
52:23near my house and I think they're behind
52:25schedule so somebody paned
52:27day and night these men are working all
52:28night it's freezing and then it was
52:30really hot they there're just Army of
52:32men working and you find very few women
52:36who do that so so it's true structural
52:38now I don't think it's just structural I
52:40think that uh that men uh will be you
52:44know we look at our if we look at our um
52:46vocational schools and what the kids
52:48want to do you know I I visited a I
52:50wrote a book called the war against boys
52:51and I'm very worried about young men in
52:53school they're not flourishing as well
52:55as girls and that's a in which women are
52:57doing better and I want both to to do
52:59well and I went to the school called
53:01Aviation High School and it's in in um
53:05Queens New York I thought I was lost it
53:07was a gritty neighborhood there were
53:09factories and this can't be a school it
53:11looked like a an abandoned Factory then
53:14I saw Aviation High School and I went
53:17inside and I still thought I was because
53:18it was the quietest school it had 2,000
53:20kids I couldn't hear you could hear a
53:21pin drop I had never been in a high
53:24school that was that quiet well it has
53:262,000 kids they were all in their
53:28classes these are kids that come mostly
53:30from uh homes that are you know the
53:34parents a lot of uh Hispanic and
53:37African-American Asian parents who are
53:40poor they go to that school and they
53:43because they like airplanes and it's 80%
53:46boys but they love it and they love it
53:49so much that they don't Goof Off the
53:52reason they're quiet is if they don't
53:53and they have to take Serious academic
53:55classes vocational schools aren't the
53:57way they used to be now you can be
53:58College Bound and my point is these kids
54:01were enthralled because and if they
54:02didn't do their math they didn't like it
54:05that much they didn't like their history
54:06CL they hated their English class many
54:08of them but if they didn't get passing
54:09grades they couldn't Tinker with the
54:12cesna 411 or whatever it was out in the
54:14playground that FedEx had donated to
54:16them and they get to do but it was these
54:18boys were enthralled it was so now there
54:22are girls there and they're fantastic
54:24they're sort of running the school but
54:26they're only about 20% they know they're
54:28different and they are interested in the
54:29airplanes and I would like to see see
54:31more but I don't know how you could
54:34change and I I I think one problem with
54:36a lot of social science in in the
54:39academy or academic uh feminism is they
54:42look at the economy and they just think
54:45they want a world that will never exist
54:46there will never be a world where there
54:48isn't some kind of supply and demand and
54:50where somebody who's a trained
54:53electrical engineer is going to earn a
54:54lot more than
54:57you know Vivian gussen paly My Heroine a
54:59kindergarten teacher but there are
55:02different payoffs pay is one thing
55:05fulfillment is another so I think we
55:08always have to ask the two questions is
55:10your dog will pay and look at that
55:12factor because you know what I think I
55:13think there are a lot of men who might
55:15have wanted to be in a rock band or they
55:19might have wanted to pursue their career
55:21as a a painter in Paris or and they went
55:24to engineering school like those women
55:26have to do in Russia the men are still
55:28still kind of have to do it so I think
55:30it's complex that's all I'm saying when
55:33I bring up all these variables I want a
55:35feminism that looks at the whole picture
55:37is fair to both sexes but most of all as
55:40faithful as possible to the
55:42truth yes so I agree with you in general
55:45I do think there are some differences
55:47between men women and I don't think that
55:49the fact that those differences exist
55:50means the world's going to end or women
55:52will all be oppressed but there's been
55:54some interesting research on the way
55:56that women and men are treated
55:57differently growing up that I think is
55:58Meaningful so for instance there's a
56:00psych study where they had uh
56:02microphones attached to mothers and they
56:04listen to everything they told their
56:06children and what they found was that
56:08when talking to boys the mothers pretty
56:11much only used anger and frustration
56:13words when talking about emotions they
56:15only use those terms and with women they
56:18use this wide variety of you know
56:20disappointed somewhat afans whatever and
56:22you could argue yes that they're
56:24catering to what naturally women
56:26whatever but I think what what I see
56:28from studies like that is that yes there
56:31is a starting difference but perhaps we
56:33are blowing that up in certain areas so
56:36yes perhaps women in general enjoy more
56:39looking at gossip magazines but if
56:41that's the only thing they're offered
56:43then we're going to make a problem that
56:44maybe is 6040 into a problem that's 9010
56:47right well I don't disagree with you as
56:49I keep saying I I've had children and
56:52and I have a i people used to say oh you
56:54have sons that's why you're not
56:56sympathetic I've got better than they
56:58say you don't have a daughter I've got
56:59better than a daughter I've got a
57:00granddaughter I've got Eliza my darling
57:04and um I watch her in brilliant perfect
57:08in every way uh and her father gave her
57:11no he doesn't like me to tell this story
57:13um someone gave her a train a train to
57:16get her no he doesn't mind the story
57:17it's someone else he gave her a train
57:20and he came back downstairs Eliza she
57:23said Daddy sh I'm putting it to bed and
57:25she you
57:27know was uh nurturing the train
57:31and I I I look at her and you know I
57:34think what do I want for this this I
57:36want everything for her I want
57:37everything any parent wants I I have a
57:40grandparent but uh I I if she excels in
57:44physics or that would be great I I but I
57:47I'll tell you one other thing about
57:48girls that's very interesting and maybe
57:51at the school particularly interesting
57:53there's a a group of people at they're
57:55now at Vanderbilt used to be at John's
57:56Hopkins and they study prodigies math
58:00and mostly you know math and and and
58:02language prodigies these are kids that
58:04get like perfect scores on the SAT in
58:07seventh grade the SAT doesn't even ma
58:09doesn't can't even measure what they
58:11know they're they're these are you know
58:13the top 1% genius kids big difference
58:16between the girls and boys the the boys
58:20if a boy is a math prodigy it's almost
58:22certain to go into a math career or a
58:25science career the girls you never know
58:27you could have a girl who's a math
58:29genius because they they the boys have a
58:32they call it an asymmetrical cognitive
58:34profile a boy can be a math genius but
58:36his skills his verbal skills may not be
58:38very good the girl who is a math prodigy
58:41is also often a verbal Prodigy this
58:44opens up a whole world to her and so we
58:47lose those girls you could say lose we
58:49lose them they could become short story
58:51writers they could become kindergarten
58:52teacher they could do anything and so
58:55they have a more a richer field just
58:58more complicated Pursuits so I just want
59:01to look at that without all always from
59:04the point of view of oh the women are
59:06the have notot I think if you look at
59:08men and women right now in the United
59:09States it's a complicated mix of burdens
59:12and benefits I want to look at both and
59:14I want to make it better if we can let's
59:17maybe find a way that women can earn
59:18more for doing the things they like but
59:22men too and I want to find a way a
59:25little more protective of men who are
59:27killing themselves lots of men who are
59:29killing themselves in these jobs and um
59:32that you can't really do after you're 40
59:33you're just ruin a lot of them we're
59:35looking now huge numbers of men are out
59:38out of the economy we have I think of
59:40one of more than almost any not any
59:42country but our countries in the OED we
59:45have more men out of the labor force and
59:49um and and a lot of it is uh disability
59:52and so forth so it's a complicated
59:54picture I do do not think that Hardline
59:57feminism is the right perspective there
59:59may be there was a time where it was so
1:00:01rigged against women it was so
1:00:03arbitrary had to be fixed so we
1:00:06developed a feminist network we
1:00:08developed institutions we needed them
1:00:11but you know what's
1:00:13happened there's this huge sort of
1:00:15structural asymmetry now you have all of
1:00:17these women's organizations and almost
1:00:18nothing for men and men do have problems
1:00:21I tell you boys in school is the first I
1:00:24will speak about and women's groups
1:00:26never give up but it turns out activist
1:00:29organizations never say oh our job's
1:00:31done let's move out no if anything they
1:00:34become more desperate and this is what
1:00:36I've seen a lot of the false statistics
1:00:38are disseminated by women's groups who
1:00:41want in their own interests depend on I
1:00:44mean I I don't say they're doing it for
1:00:45mercenary Reasons I'm just it's sort of
1:00:47a combination of self-interest and
1:00:50ideology and narrative they they want to
1:00:53believe and we've got so much of that
1:00:55right now that's our problem
1:00:58so I don't know if I answered your
1:01:00question maybe I f up
1:01:04AER um what do you think are the most
1:01:08important feminist issues in the United
1:01:11States today and do you have any policy
1:01:14suggestions for how to fix them I see
1:01:17two big problem well the first thing I
1:01:18want to say is the to me if I were
1:01:21Zarina of the women's movement and I'm
1:01:23not Freedom feminism it's me and I don't
1:01:26know some random Twitter Twitter
1:01:28followers who like it maybe some of you
1:01:30I don't have a following I'm not the
1:01:31Zarina but if I were in charge I I first
1:01:35of all would say that our focus should
1:01:36be outside the United States and I say
1:01:39this because we've had two waves waves
1:01:41of feminism we pretty much have it you
1:01:43can pretty much it's not perfect and
1:01:45I'll talk about that in a minute you can
1:01:46pretty much do what you want and yeah
1:01:48there's still some jerks out there and
1:01:50draglites and little pockets of sexism
1:01:53but
1:01:54overall you you have a fair shot in this
1:01:56country compared to almost any place in
1:01:58the world and uh so but there are
1:02:01societies and I've been to several
1:02:03International women's conferences where
1:02:05they have not had a first wave a second
1:02:08they have not had so much as a trickle
1:02:10of feminism and who do I meet at these
1:02:13conferences I meet the Elizabeth Katie
1:02:15Stanton the Susan B Anthony I meet them
1:02:19from from you know it could be from
1:02:20Angola it could be from Cambodia these
1:02:23are the most inspiring women and they
1:02:25these fantastic women from Iran who are
1:02:28putting up with a kind of 1984 for women
1:02:31it's a it's despotic what the women have
1:02:33to put up with and they come to these
1:02:36conferences and they they they want to
1:02:38make they want to make common they want
1:02:40to do what we did here and they want
1:02:43inspiration so to me that would be the
1:02:44first thing I think that we we should
1:02:47appreciate what we have figure out how
1:02:49we got it and help other women who want
1:02:51it so but here I think the unfinished
1:02:54work of feminism
1:02:56uh one is to me there's a lot of sexism
1:03:01in the popular culture now there's a lot
1:03:04of misry and trash talk about men but I
1:03:09I think that women are uh and one of the
1:03:13questioners brought it up even in
1:03:14political campaigns there are just
1:03:15special ways you know in which women are
1:03:18um viewed by in a sexist way that people
1:03:21kind of take for granted and I I still
1:03:23think it's worth questioning and
1:03:26understanding it better the other thing
1:03:28more important is what uh economists
1:03:31call the feminization of poverty if you
1:03:33look at who's really poor in this
1:03:35Society it's mostly women and children
1:03:39now one of the things I would like in a
1:03:42my feminist movement would be more
1:03:43inclusive to get the best ideas from
1:03:45conservatives
1:03:47Libertarians um you know people that
1:03:49have been left out religious women and I
1:03:51have no time to go into this but there's
1:03:53a another person who inspired me as this
1:03:56historian at brandise University and she
1:03:58wrote
1:03:59this uh history of the women's movement
1:04:02and she said the women in the United
1:04:04States made the greatest progress when
1:04:06conservative women worked with liberal
1:04:08women she called it two paths to Freedom
1:04:11um I'm blanking out on her name Janet
1:04:14it'll come to me in a second two paths
1:04:16to Freedom when more conservative women
1:04:18got together with radical women and they
1:04:19work together and I could see that if we
1:04:22had a more inclusive right now feminism
1:04:24is pretty much in the H you know it's
1:04:26pretty much women identified from the
1:04:28far left even on campus the Women's
1:04:30Center is supposed to be a safe place
1:04:32for women it's not really a safe place
1:04:34for a traditionally uh religious woman
1:04:38you know a conservative woman it's a
1:04:40safe space for people who think exactly
1:04:42the way I do and I'm radical and if
1:04:44you're not you're not welcome not in all
1:04:45of them I'm sure it's not true at Yale
1:04:47but no at other schools so I'd want it
1:04:51to be more inclusive and then start
1:04:53solving problems look at the
1:04:54feminization of poverty now Li a typical
1:04:57liberal we need to give more support to
1:05:00women uh single mothers a conservative
1:05:02would say yes I want to give them
1:05:03support but we've probably got to look
1:05:06at stabilizing families because it just
1:05:08turns out I'm sorry to say it appears to
1:05:12be the case in in this case liberal and
1:05:15uh conservative sociologists are sort of
1:05:17coming to the same
1:05:19conclusion it's very hard to succeed and
1:05:23to make it into the middle class A if
1:05:25you don't have have some education
1:05:27Beyond high school and B if you have a
1:05:29broken family and if you don't have the
1:05:30education and a broken family you're
1:05:33stuck so how do we mend the families and
1:05:36I I rare I don't I don't say I never
1:05:38hear it but I rarely hear that from
1:05:40feminists admitting the need and I don't
1:05:42say they can't be gay families they can
1:05:44be any kind of family they have to be
1:05:46you have to have at least two people
1:05:48taking looking after those kids bringing
1:05:49in income probably canceling out each
1:05:52other's Manas uh you need two people
1:05:56and we have we have a divorce society
1:05:59and we have kids who are brought up and
1:06:01it's takes a a distinct toll on boys
1:06:03I'll tell you that but it's another
1:06:06story girls in another way so I I think
1:06:09conservatives should could bring that in
1:06:10and and um Libertarians would be there
1:06:13to keep us careful from not creating a
1:06:16nanny state where none of us are free
1:06:18and ending up like a Galia or something
1:06:20in Sweden so you I I want that I want
1:06:23feminism to have that to be more diverse
1:06:26and more more women's voices and I think
1:06:28when conservative and leftwing women
1:06:30come together watch out and history
1:06:33actually I'm no time to go into this but
1:06:35we won the vote because Elizabeth Kat
1:06:37Stan and Susan B Anthony the women
1:06:39weren't demanding it and women were even
1:06:42organized against their own suffrage
1:06:44nobody ever saw anything women organized
1:06:46against their own vote how could that be
1:06:49H well it took a woman Francis Willard
1:06:51who was the president of the Christian
1:06:52Temperance Union and she went out and
1:06:55told women that it was their she she
1:06:57said that they were like domestic
1:06:58heroins and they had to just as they
1:07:00were prided over their house they had to
1:07:02Pride over the nation it was their moral
1:07:04responsibility and she rebranded the
1:07:07ballot as the family protection act
1:07:09because one of the reasons they wanted
1:07:11women devot is that um you know there
1:07:14were just there was so much that was
1:07:16dysfunctional in the society but
1:07:19anyway Elizabeth ktie Stanton and Susan
1:07:22B Anthony sort of did it from abstract
1:07:23principles of equality which was great
1:07:25we needed that and Francis Willard did
1:07:28it from a different a kind of maternal
1:07:30feminism that women are nurturers and
1:07:33the nation needs nurturers and she
1:07:35brought them together so I think that
1:07:37would be empowering so that's I guess
1:07:38that's a third principle I would change
1:07:40the women's movement and make let open
1:07:43that up to more women from and and
1:07:46certainly try to bring in more uh women
1:07:48of color because the women's movement
1:07:50the organized women's movement is
1:07:51largely sort of a white elite movement
1:07:55and they have not you know they say when
1:07:58they do polls they just don't they not a
1:08:00lot of women that turn up from poor
1:08:03women or uh women from different
1:08:05ethnicities so it's not inclusive I
1:08:07would try to make it inclusive then I
1:08:08would look at the misogyny I would look
1:08:10at
1:08:12the the poverty and uh come up you know
1:08:16I'm not saying we're going to solve it
1:08:17but I think we have a better
1:08:22chance I'm gonna give shorter answers I
1:08:24promise
1:08:36sure
1:08:37okay um so I kind of want to go back to
1:08:41a point you kind of glossed over um and
1:08:43really unpack the statement so one of
1:08:46the key tenants I think of how people
1:08:48think about gender today academically is
1:08:50that gender as opposed to sex is
1:08:51something that's learned and per uh
1:08:53learned and then performed um and you
1:08:55kind of gloss over that assertion that
1:08:58genders learn through Culture by saying
1:08:59very quickly we could say that they're
1:09:01not truly free in a society where they
1:09:03have little access to education and
1:09:04information about the world but we don't
1:09:06live in that Society American and
1:09:07European women are among the most
1:09:08self-educated people in human history um
1:09:12but that seems in congruous with the
1:09:13statement from earlier that um I think
1:09:17it was 40% of I think Chinese Engineers
1:09:18are women China has a top education
1:09:21program higher in the United States and
1:09:23it seems in congruous with the fact that
1:09:24children obvious VI ly are not educated
1:09:27they're in the process of receiving
1:09:28their education um but they're certainly
1:09:30not as educated as adult women and
1:09:32unable to kind of differentiate culture
1:09:34between what um they might learn in an
1:09:36academic setting um so I was wondering
1:09:38if you could talk more about your
1:09:41rational for this kind of bold assertion
1:09:43that American and European women are
1:09:45immune to cultural promotions of gender
1:09:48um and that how that doesn't affect
1:09:50their choices and how their choices are
1:09:51solely based or primarily based on
1:09:53innate gender differences okay can I
1:09:56answer that quickly oh I hope this is
1:09:57quick and then I'll I promise I'll get
1:09:59to you I American women are we're
1:10:01constantly exposed to these roles being
1:10:04contested and your generation has never
1:10:08never has there been a generation was
1:10:09more debated and and questioned and
1:10:12different kinds of Role Models a whole
1:10:14array so to me if a young woman comes to
1:10:17me and says that she wants to major in
1:10:20early childhood education and I I say
1:10:23well have you thought about that and why
1:10:24are you why do you want we know uh I
1:10:27mean it's possible that she hasn't and I
1:10:28could raise her Consciousness and she'd
1:10:29go become a chemical engineer but I
1:10:33suspect I'm going to credit her with
1:10:37being part of this conversation being
1:10:39part of this world there's no possible
1:10:41world where we don't have influences you
1:10:44can't set the standard for Freedom so
1:10:46high that it means that we're all just
1:10:48enslaved by culture I mean maybe we are
1:10:50I'm I'm a philosopher it's perfectly
1:10:52possible a lot of things are possible
1:10:54metaphysically uh but not resolved so
1:10:57this whole question of Freedom it seems
1:10:59to me though as as a kind of soft
1:11:02determinist we could say that in a
1:11:04country where you have choices and where
1:11:05you're exposed I will say you have more
1:11:09you're more self-determining where you
1:11:10never heard of the possibility that a
1:11:12woman shouldn't stay home and have
1:11:13children it never no one ever did it in
1:11:15the history of your village that would
1:11:17be different and it was a it was a
1:11:19little bit like that in the United
1:11:21States it changed so that's why I'm a
1:11:24strong component of a lot of things that
1:11:26we got from first and second way
1:11:28feminism but as I said it just turns out
1:11:31at a certain point you have to look
1:11:33around and say so what did women do with
1:11:36freedom that well we did a lot of things
1:11:39but we didn't become men and it appears
1:11:41we don't want to some of us do majority
1:11:43don't so I take that seriously and does
1:11:48that answer you maybe it doesn't oh and
1:11:50I want to say one other thing I do think
1:11:51it is partly biological I think it's
1:11:53cultural but I think it's so so naive in
1:11:56in gender studies where they say it's a
1:11:58social construction I mean it seems to
1:12:00me that's biologically naive not to know
1:12:03about the role of of testosterone and
1:12:07and hormones and the P play patterns
1:12:10people say oh well children are socially
1:12:12constructed you know by the Toys R Us
1:12:13catalog this is blue and this is pink
1:12:15but they've looked at uh veret monkeys
1:12:19and and the little the female monkeys
1:12:21will gravitate towards the dolly or the
1:12:23plush toy and the males will go to a gas
1:12:25or something I mean how do you explain
1:12:27that did they didn't read the toys RS
1:12:29catalog there's
1:12:31something that does impel us there is
1:12:33now I don't say biology is Destiny but
1:12:35it's something and it's in us and and I
1:12:41think in a is it just a subversive idea
1:12:43but you know what I think I think in a
1:12:46free prosperous
1:12:48Society you can sort of go with it if
1:12:51you have you know not everybody is a
1:12:53girly girl but if you are there's a
1:12:55place for you and you can or gay or any
1:12:57you know anything on the Spectrum you
1:12:59can do it and it seems to me we've
1:13:01become a society now where we're very
1:13:03disapproving of those who are
1:13:04conventional and I just say let's
1:13:07embrace it but but I'm not disagreeing
1:13:09with you we should keep informing people
1:13:11and I will tell my granddaughter about
1:13:13Metallurgy but I don't think there's
1:13:16there there's a chance but I I think I
1:13:18see an English teacher there but go on
1:13:20to clarify real fast um when you say
1:13:22just like yes or no when you say a free
1:13:24prosperous Society you're indicating the
1:13:25United States right no I'm indicating
1:13:28Sweden Australia Canada France I mean
1:13:33even Japan and CH you po industrial
1:13:36societies with where people have you
1:13:38know high levels of Education life
1:13:40expectancy all the things we would agree
1:13:42are are Goods um you want to watch what
1:13:44do people do I watch what people do
1:13:48there's a there was a great article in I
1:13:51keep talking about slate I don't know
1:13:52why
1:13:53but um I like K it's great actually but
1:13:56anyway it was it was about
1:13:58Holland the country that feminism forgot
1:14:02and it sounds pretty good I read about
1:14:05Holland and I was I thought oh maybe I'm
1:14:07not gonna well I had been there and I
1:14:09liked it but I thought oh maybe there's
1:14:10something to miss here and it just turns
1:14:12out the women they all work almost all
1:14:14work
1:14:15part-time and even those without
1:14:17children they have a whole culture
1:14:19around kazel making the house cozy
1:14:22making everything kazel and they love it
1:14:24they go with their girlfriend they're
1:14:25teasing it's just happy little thriving
1:14:27place I'm sure there's some Dutch
1:14:28feminists who would disagree with me but
1:14:30when they take polls they get very high
1:14:32levels of happiness so I'm just and you
1:14:34see in Sweden they have all these
1:14:36services that American women especially
1:14:38feminists say oh we should have all
1:14:40these the government should do this and
1:14:41they do it in Sweden we're ahead of
1:14:44Sweden when it comes to women advancing
1:14:45in in managerial positions because we
1:14:48because we have to and we don't have but
1:14:52I I looked at Sweden and I thought gee I
1:14:53would like to have those things
1:14:55but I think it would exaggerate the sex
1:14:57difference rather than make us more the
1:14:59same because if you give women the
1:15:02opportunity to stay home with their kids
1:15:04a lot of women will take it and very few
1:15:06men will yes yeah um I'm kind of lazy I
1:15:11didn't want to stand up and wait the
1:15:13whole time sorry um so some some of what
1:15:17you say is great and and I like the tone
1:15:20you take it's it's refreshing um but do
1:15:24you not see even when you say even when
1:15:26you said maybe my granddaughter will be
1:15:28a metallurgist you kind of did a shrug
1:15:31and the P because I know her
1:15:33face sure yeah one question you're right
1:15:36you're right and then see that every
1:15:38time you mention computer science and
1:15:40I'm not blaming the audience we laughed
1:15:42as an audience um oh the the your son
1:15:44who did English and um we weren't
1:15:46judging your son we just kind of laughed
1:15:48because it's kind of funny when you ask
1:15:50because it's different we know it's
1:15:52different I know but when when you ask
1:15:55we can't really explain why it's funny
1:15:57but we're just so used to it so I think
1:15:59that in this presentation in which you
1:16:00used humor beautifully which I really
1:16:03enjoyed I think that the fact that we
1:16:05found this funny kind of shows that we
1:16:07already do have these biases against
1:16:10these things do you could be right it
1:16:11could be that we know our biases or it
1:16:13could be we know
1:16:14ourselves and that's what I don't know
1:16:17I'm open I'm open a point that you
1:16:19brought up that I was glad you discussed
1:16:21was how mainstream feminism is not
1:16:23accommodating to women of color um um
1:16:25and so the and you also talked about a
1:16:27diversity of voices so I have a question
1:16:29about which voices are heard in your
1:16:30form of feminism um and how Freedom
1:16:32feminism accommodates trans women or
1:16:35disabled women or women of color so who
1:16:37does your feminism seek to
1:16:40empower uh mine is very separate so I'd
1:16:43like for to answer
1:16:46that um sure well my question is um you
1:16:49talked about why families need uh two
1:16:52parents and um I come from a single
1:16:55parent household many of my friends did
1:16:56in high school I graduate in the top 10%
1:16:59of my high school and I just want you to
1:17:01and before you relate it to race my
1:17:03mother is white and before you related
1:17:04it to socioeconomic status we're middle
1:17:06class so I just wanted to um have you
1:17:08explain why she was inept at raising a
1:17:11child oh okay first of all I didn't say
1:17:15all children I think you just better
1:17:17look at the data before you want to go
1:17:19around suggesting your
1:17:22model my sister raised two kids by her
1:17:25three kids by herself oh how I could
1:17:27forget Vanessa like that she raised
1:17:28three kids by herself it was hard it was
1:17:32a challenge uh but many many mothers
1:17:35make fantastic accommodation and they
1:17:38they cope but overall as a policy there
1:17:43it is is not working yes it works for
1:17:45very gifted middle class people with
1:17:47lots of of of social support and it
1:17:50certainly works well for like Hollywood
1:17:52actresses or you know having their third
1:17:54child on their own own what it works but
1:17:57as a policy it keeps women and children
1:18:00poor and what you to what you said what
1:18:03you just said is is scary to me because
1:18:07that attitude it I see it so often and
1:18:10and I I hear liberal and conservative uh
1:18:14statisticians and sociologists worry
1:18:16that we're normalizing something that
1:18:18does not work for most most kids and and
1:18:22c and it takes a high toll on women and
1:18:25will keep
1:18:26poor it it's fine and I I I I admire the
1:18:32these mothers and in my own family I see
1:18:34it up close but we've got to mend our
1:18:38families it's not for in the long run do
1:18:40you know that our families are less
1:18:41stable than they are in Europe where
1:18:43they don't even get married they don't
1:18:45they mean marriage is just p in France
1:18:48and Sweden but they stay together and
1:18:51we're like we we're crazy about marriage
1:18:53and people get married and they
1:18:55split up all the time so we have to
1:18:57figure that out I don't have an answer
1:18:59but as a
1:19:01policy you show me data that I'm wrong
1:19:03and I'll reconsider but you got to look
1:19:05at my data too okay well I would love to
1:19:07have some links to your data um and
1:19:10thank you for
1:19:11answering oh yeah no of course I do want
1:19:14it to be inclusive and um when I look
1:19:18back at one of the I mentioned uh
1:19:21Francis Willard who organized women to
1:19:23get the vote
1:19:25and the women's movement with Elizabeth
1:19:28Katie Stanton and Susan banthony was
1:19:29kind of an elite movement in New England
1:19:31societies and their drawing rooms
1:19:34Elizabeth Willard had workingclass women
1:19:36she had chapters of of African-American
1:19:39women Hispanic
1:19:41women it was a a Grassroots movement
1:19:45that went to throughout the whole
1:19:46society and it changed the society now
1:19:49we needed those women in New England in
1:19:50their drawing rooms they they were
1:19:52playing a an important role but they
1:19:54were two streams but most women sort of
1:19:58resonated with with a with a style of
1:20:01feminism that was more sympathetic to to
1:20:05Domesticity they wanted to be wives and
1:20:07mothers and many of them wanted to be in
1:20:09their homes they didn't want to be
1:20:10working a lot of workingclass women were
1:20:12afraid of the vote um because they
1:20:16thought that it would they they wanted
1:20:18to be feminists speak disparagingly of
1:20:20of women in the 19th century Where
1:20:23Angels in the house this is supposed to
1:20:25be a bad thing it you know it wasn't the
1:20:28women didn't think it was a bad thing
1:20:29they wanted to be those angels they
1:20:30wanted to be in the house they didn't
1:20:32want to be in the fields they didn't
1:20:33want to be in the factories it was it
1:20:35was uh an achievement to be U taking
1:20:39care of your own home and Francis
1:20:42Willard understood that for what that
1:20:44meant to women across the political
1:20:46Spectrum across the economic spectrum so
1:20:48I think in inclusive
1:20:50feminism you're probably going to have
1:20:52to allow religious women if you allow
1:20:55religious women you're going to get a
1:20:56lot of women of color because you do
1:20:58find a lot of women who are you're going
1:21:00to get Catholic women you're you it'll
1:21:03become more diverse got to have a more
1:21:05diverse
1:21:10movement well I I think they're fine and
1:21:14and here's why
1:21:15I here's why I find it so interesting is
1:21:19I'm reading a lot of literature
1:21:21about transgender and I think it's going
1:21:24to turn out to be devastating to a lot
1:21:26of conventional feminist analysis that
1:21:29gender is a social
1:21:30construction because uh there are
1:21:34children who are born and I think that
1:21:37you're you're I think you're we're born
1:21:39with an identity uh of our gender and we
1:21:41want to be that gender but there's
1:21:43different wiring in some kids it's like
1:21:45some kids are born left-handed some kids
1:21:47are born transgendered and they don't
1:21:50fit the body but they have the soul of a
1:21:53little girl they have the ation they
1:21:55have and well I don't know what that is
1:21:57exactly but I know it's real because I
1:22:00had
1:22:01it so when I talk to them what they're
1:22:04describing is what I had I wouldn't have
1:22:06wanted you know and it's so real to me
1:22:09and it conforms to what I've been
1:22:11reading so I could be wrong about this I
1:22:14mean I'm not I know there's a there's a
1:22:16lot of radicalism in the transgender
1:22:18movement they might not welcome uh being
1:22:22allied with me however it seems like I
1:22:24have a lot of Twitter followers who are
1:22:26trans and they're very excited they're
1:22:28about it and happy so I'm not I'm not I
1:22:32am at peace with that and I think it's
1:22:34going to be helpful to for Freedom
1:22:36feminism
1:22:38[Applause]

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