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BRILLIANT Interrogation and Confession - Col Russell Williams Interrogation — Transcript

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0:00All
0:02[Music]
0:10right.
0:12You just have to see us.
0:15Guy was speaking with on whatever night
0:17that was was Russ as well.
0:19Oh, yeah.
0:19They took took every number I had.
0:22Yeah. Now, they were doing some pretty
0:23thorough interviews that night. So,
0:24yeah, absolutely. It was glad to see it.
0:27I'm just going to move the gloves here.
0:28That's a little microphone just to make
0:29sure there's nice and clear. Um, as you
0:31can see here, everything in this room is
0:32uh videotaped and audio taped.
0:34Check.
0:34Uh,
0:36you ever been interviewed by the police
0:37in a in a room like this before?
0:39I have never been interviewed like this.
0:40Oh, no. Okay.
0:42No.
0:42Let's get this set up here.
0:48I guess closest to
0:50interview by NIS for top secret
0:52clearance.
0:53Oh, yeah. All right. Well, again,
0:55Russell, I appreciate you coming in an
0:57investigation like this. I mean, I'm
0:58sure you can appreciate it's been big
1:00news, uh, especially down uh, Belleville
1:02Way. Um, and you know, obviously our
1:05approach to cases like this is that, uh,
1:07uh, we don't give up on somebody being
1:10alive until we get evidence that they're
1:11not. So,
1:13um, because of that, we're treating uh,
1:14Jessica's case as an e situation,
1:17obviously.
1:18Um, so we're we're fast forwarding
1:20things that we might normally take our
1:22time with. Um, and that's why we're here
1:25on a Sunday afternoon. So, uh, again, I
1:27appreciate it. Um,
1:29we're going to do a pretty thorough
1:30interview today. Okay. Um, the reason
1:33for that is because uh, the last thing
1:35we want is to be calling people back
1:37again and again and again. Okay.
1:38Um, so what we're going to do is we're
1:40going to go over a number of things and
1:41uh, I'm going to explain what all those
1:42are to you. Okay.
1:44Um,
1:45I'm a big coffee guy. I don't know if
1:47you're a a coffee guy or I didn't want
1:49to drink in front of you. So,
1:50no, I appreciate that.
1:51All right. Go ahead. I could uh
1:53definitely Are they black?
1:54Yeah, they're just black with uh with
1:56sugar. Um
1:58[Music]
2:00probably haven't a little bit.
2:01Sorry. What? Sorry.
2:02Gum. Just piece of gum.
2:04Well, there's napkins there if you want
2:05to toss it over.
2:06I appreciate that.
2:08All right. And again, um like I said,
2:09this interview is going to be very
2:10thorough. Um but again, uh I have a
2:14simple rule when I talk to people. It's
2:15uh I'm sure you're the same way. I treat
2:17pe everybody with respect. I don't want
2:18to ask you to do the same for me. Um, so
2:21what we're going to do is we're going to
2:22start off by uh going through um what
2:24your rights are. Okay?
2:25Just like everybody else, okay?
2:28Um have you ever been read your rights
2:29before? I'm sure you've seen on TV a
2:31whole bunch of times, but that's usually
2:32the American version. So
2:34I'll go over with you briefly. Okay.
2:35Um basically in Canada uh as you know,
2:38I'm sure is uh we all have uh our rights
2:40guaranteed under the Charter of Rights
2:41and Freedoms. Okay. Now, uh, Russell,
2:44just to avoid any confusion because
2:45people do get confused when they're
2:47talked to by the police, is that, uh,
2:49um, you're obviously not under arrest
2:50here today. Okay? Anytime you feel, uh,
2:53you want to leave here, you feel free to
2:54do so. The door's not locked. Theresa
2:56will walk you down to the lobby anytime
2:57you want. Okay?
2:58Um, if there's anything that comes up in
3:01our interview today, Russell, that uh,
3:03that you feel you want to talk uh, to a
3:05lawyer about, um, you just, uh, you just
3:07let me know. Okay? And the reason for
3:09that is I want to explain to you exactly
3:11what's going on here. Okay. Um uh
3:14Jessica uh Lloyd is um is one of four
3:18cases that we're currently
3:20investigating. Okay.
3:21Um and essentially what's happened is
3:23over the past uh about four or five
3:26months.
3:27Um there have been four occurrences,
3:31like I said, that we're looking into.
3:33Uh two of those occurrences occurred in
3:34September of 2009.
3:36Um and very briefly, they were up in the
3:38the Tweet area. Uh they involved uh
3:41somebody entering two different women's
3:43houses um in the evening hours and uh
3:46committing sexual acts. Okay.
3:48Uh in uh November of 2009
3:52young lady by the name of Marie France
3:55Ko um people
3:57was found uh murdered in her home in
3:59Brighton.
4:00Yeah.
4:00And u we believe that there was a sexual
4:03component to that crime as well.
4:05And um then most recently we have
4:07Jessica Lloyd's disappearance. Okay. So,
4:10essentially when you're looking at those
4:11kind of crimes, we're looking at a
4:13number of different uh potential
4:14criminal charges. All right.
4:16Um we're looking at issues all the way
4:18from the most serious one, which is
4:19first-degree murder,
4:21uh kidnapping, uh sexual assault, um
4:24break and enter with intent to commit
4:25sexual assault,
4:27um forcible confinement. Okay? And uh so
4:30what I want to make sure you understand
4:31and this is what we've been doing with
4:32everybody we've been talking to is that
4:34clearly when we find out who's
4:35responsible for one or all of those
4:37crimes uh they could be charged with one
4:39or all of those offenses. Okay? Whether
4:41it's you or whether it's anybody else.
4:43Right?
4:44And that's why it's important that we uh
4:46make sure that people understand what
4:47they have to do and what they don't have
4:48to do when they're talking to us. Okay?
4:50So as I said before, any point today uh
4:53you feel the need you want to speak to a
4:54lawyer uh you let me know and uh we can
4:56take you to a room where you can do that
4:58in private. Okay.
4:59Okay.
4:59Um, do you have your own lawyer?
5:03I have a realy lawyer, but I don't have
5:05a lawyer.
5:05All right. Um, if at any point you want
5:08to make that call and you don't know who
5:09to call, uh, we have a phone list of
5:12lawyers that are available to give you
5:13advice free of charge right over the
5:15phone. Okay. So, again, if at any point
5:17today you want to take advantage of
5:18that, you just let me know.
5:19Sure.
5:19Um, is there any reason you want to call
5:21a lawyer now?
5:21Nope.
5:22Okay. Um, couple other fairly simple and
5:25straightforward things that you probably
5:27understand, but again, we go over them
5:29to make sure everybody's clear
5:30is that uh you don't have to speak to me
5:32today. Okay?
5:33Okay.
5:34And the reason for that is because the
5:35law considers me to be what we refer to
5:37as a person in authority. Okay? Probably
5:39similar to what you may be considered to
5:41be on the base.
5:42Um, and because of that, I can be
5:44compelled to appear before any judge in
5:46the country basically to account for
5:47what takes place here today between you
5:49and I. Okay? And that's the reason why
5:51everything's recorded.
5:53because
5:53there can't be any more accurate record
5:55than that, right? So,
5:56no understood.
5:57Um, and the other thing I want to make
5:58sure you understand is that uh, you
6:00know, you mentioned a second ago about
6:02Miss Ko um, being one of your work
6:05associates. Um, so I don't know what's
6:08happened since November um, on the
6:09military side of things. Um, but what we
6:12want to make people clear on is that uh
6:14if you have been spoken to by any person
6:16in authority or any police officer about
6:18any of those cases, um, I don't want
6:20what they may have said to you to uh,
6:22um, make you feel influenced or
6:24compelled to say anything to me today.
6:26Okay? Whatever you might have felt
6:27influenced or compelled to say to them
6:29earlier. You don't have to repeat it to
6:30me and you don't have to say anything
6:31further. Okay? But obviously what you do
6:33say,
6:34you know, for the third time is being
6:36recorded, right? So, um,
6:37you understood these first two attacks
6:39happened, uh, not that far from my place
6:41in two. Well, the second one did.
6:43Yeah.
6:43We didn't even know the first one had
6:45happened, but, uh, I understand that was
6:47reasonably close as well, but the second
6:48one was, uh,
6:50was very close.
6:50Yeah.
6:51So, certainly at the time, JP did a uh,
6:54a door to door.
6:56Yeah.
6:56And uh, within a couple of days,
6:58probably the same night. So, I spoke
6:59with a couple back then.
7:00Okay. Um, yeah. Yeah, and I'm I'm aware
7:02of that from looking at the different
7:04cases and essentially uh Russell, in a
7:07nutshell, that's what we wanted to uh to
7:08talk to you about. Okay. Um those four
7:11cases are of concern to us
7:13and um you know, you've kind of almost
7:15hit the nail on the head about some of
7:17our issues that kind of uh make us want
7:19to talk to to Russell Williams. Okay. Um
7:22because essentially uh there was a a a
7:25connection um between you and uh and all
7:28four of those cases. Would you agree?
7:32Geographically.
7:33I guess I drive past. Yes. I would have
7:36to say there's a a connection. Yeah.
7:38Yeah. And that's what that's why um I'll
7:40be quite frank with you. That's why uh
7:42things kind of um uh evolved when uh the
7:45officers talked to you on Thursday
7:46night. Okay.
7:47Uh we kind of went from there because uh
7:50when I think you discussed with them the
7:51fact that you were a uh a colonel at the
7:55base,
7:56I was in uniform at the time. So
7:57yeah. So pretty obvious, right? Um, so
8:00essentially, uh, then the connection
8:01with Miss Como, um, was made, um, and I
8:06believe you're, uh, a door or two down
8:09from one of those two, uh, incidents,
8:11uh, three doors down. Yeah.
8:14Yeah.
8:14Very close. Absolutely.
8:15Yeah, exactly. So, uh, those are some of
8:17the issues we wanted to discuss with
8:18you. Okay. Um, so, just getting back to,
8:22uh, these four incidents that we're
8:24talking about. Um maybe you could just
8:26give me a little bit of history as to uh
8:29your arrival in the uh in the base in
8:32Trenton. When did you start working
8:33there?
8:35Friday on the day I was um
8:46Friday on the day I was at home most of
8:48the day I had a sort of a stomach flu.
8:51Okay. In Ottawa or Tweed?
8:53Tweed.
8:53In Tweed. Okay. Okay. Yeah.
8:55Uh so we backtrack then
8:59so
9:01all day Friday you're at home.
9:03Yeah.
9:04And then what time do you leave to go to
9:06the base to sleep there on the Friday
9:08night?
9:09Um
9:13not sure. Probably just you know went in
9:15for just before bed. Uh
9:18I probably have tweeted between eight
9:20and nine or so.
9:21Okay. Um and you get to the base and
9:24spend the evening there and get up for
9:26the 5:30.
9:26Yeah.
9:27Okay.
9:27That's right.
9:28So we backtrack from there. Um you when
9:31did you arrive at your home uh at the
9:34cottage? Can I wonder I don't want to
9:36get confused between your home in Ottawa
9:37and the home. So
9:39no I had been in Tweed all week.
9:41Yeah.
9:41Uh the week prior now. Um,
9:47yeah, I think that's the case. Was in
9:50tweet all week, flu Saturday, headed to
9:54Ottawa Saturday night.
9:56Okay. So, um, if you didn't have the
9:58stomach flu on the Friday, what was your
10:01schedule that day?
10:02Really?
10:03Okay.
10:03Um,
10:07what would have been my schedule? Just a
10:08standard schedule in the office.
10:10Okay.
10:10So, uh,
10:13office brief in the morning. couple of
10:14uh
10:17couple of meetings. I can't remember
10:19what the specifics were going to be.
10:21Okay. So, um Thursday night you slept at
10:24Tweed or you
10:26Yep.
10:27All right. And what did you do Thursday
10:29during the day?
10:30Thursday during the day I was at the
10:32base again.
10:34Um
10:37I think it was a fairly standard day. I
10:39can't recall exactly, but uh
10:43yeah. Nothing. I was not fine. So I was
10:45at the base. So I would have gone in
10:47early in the morning back in the evening
10:48again.
10:49Okay. Do you remember what time you left
10:50the base that night?
10:58I don't remember anything peculiar. So I
11:00would say uh
11:04I don't know probably 7 to nine
11:06somewhere in that range.
11:07Okay.
11:07That's when you you left
11:09left the base. Yeah.
11:10And what?
11:10That's a 45minute transit. So
11:1145 minutes home. Yeah. Okay.
11:13Okay.
11:14Now, I'm not I'm not going to walk you
11:15through November, but I'm going to take
11:16you to a date that's probably pretty
11:17fresh in your mind. Uh uh the day that
11:20uh that Marie Fron's com
11:22um do you remember how you found out?
11:24I do. Yeah. I was sent an email. Um
11:29well, as soon as the uh the op staff and
11:32the base learned, they told me.
11:35Okay.
11:35So, I got an email. I can't remember if
11:37it was late at night, early in the
11:38morning, it was certainly I saw it uh I
11:41want to say first thing in the morning
11:42because I had just come back from
11:44Ottawa. I was in Ottawa for um
11:49um a set of meetings on one of the days.
11:52I can't remember what what day of the
11:53week we're talking about, but uh
11:56yeah. No, I mean obviously one of your
11:59people gets killed, it gets your
12:00attention. So,
12:01absolutely.
12:02I very much remember that coming in. And
12:04how did you know Marie France Coleman?
12:07I'd only met her once. Um,
12:10she was on a crew uh I was on just after
12:13I got to the base.
12:14Okay.
12:15So, uh, I can't even remember. I think
12:16it was a one-day trip. Uh, I did a
12:19number of trips uh in Canada
12:21transporting um
12:23our um, you know, troops for the first
12:26leg out of Edmonton. uh you know we tend
12:29to hopscotch them across uh until they
12:31get into theater. So anyway I I can't
12:34remember which trip it was but uh we did
12:36a number of them out to Edmonton just to
12:37to pick up the troops bring them to
12:39Trenton and then uh put a fresh crew on
12:42and because we'd fly out and back in the
12:44same day so pushing the edge of that and
12:46uh fresh crew on continue on after a
12:49couple hour delay.
12:50Okay. Do you know uh roughly when that
12:52happened
12:54that we were on the same crew?
12:55The time you met or the one time there?
12:57Yeah,
12:57it was soon after I got to the base. So,
12:59uh I I don't remember exactly, but I
13:02would say in the first couple of months,
13:04so August, September.
13:06Okay.
13:07Um now, you got that email notifying you
13:09that something had happened.
13:11Uh do you have uh any kind of a a clear
13:14recollection as to how your schedule was
13:15going that week?
13:19Well, I can't remember what again what
13:22day that uh the message came in. Just
13:24second.
13:26Um,
13:33no. I can't remember what day of the
13:35week, but I um
13:38think there was a whole bunch of
13:39activity spun up as a result, obviously.
13:45I can't remember the day of the week.
13:47Um,
13:53I'm just trying to think through the
13:54news reports I read.
13:59No, I'm sorry. I can't remember what day
14:00it was, but uh
14:06what I what we learned after the fact
14:08was that the um the MPs had learned
14:14uh of her death, I think quite a bit
14:17after her body had been discovered.
14:19Okay.
14:21So,
14:24I think what happened? I'm sorry. Just a
14:26second.
14:33Okay. So, I think if I remember
14:36correctly, the MPs learned
14:39late that evening. Can't remember when
14:41obviously body was discovered. It was
14:43probably in the news reports, but uh so
14:45they learned and then they passed it to
14:47ops that so they immediately passed it
14:49to me.
14:50Okay.
14:50The MDS work for the wing operations
14:52officer. So they go, you know, through
14:54their chain of command and then as soon
14:55as the uh the duty watch officer had
14:57that information, she advised me.
14:59Okay. Um so again, that that particular
15:02week
15:03some others.
15:04Right. Right. I'm sure it spread like
15:06wildfire.
15:07Um so that particular week, uh do you
15:11have any recollection? Well, for
15:12instance, when you got the email, uh
15:14yeah.
15:15Do you remember where you were?
15:16I was at home.
15:18Okay.
15:18Yeah. Um, do you remember if that was a
15:20week that you were um reasonably stable
15:24in Treton or had you flown?
15:25No, I had been in Ottawa. I had been in
15:27Ottawa early in the week uh for some
15:30meetings over in uh in Gatnau for one of
15:33the um it's actually for the C7
15:35acquisition. I was project director when
15:37I was here in for that. So, just some
15:39followup stuff for that.
15:41Okay. So, I had been here um
15:47at some point in that week. Again, I
15:49can't remember how the days all fell
15:51together,
15:52but um I seem to remember that I got
15:56this word shortly after having come back
15:58from Ottawa. Seems to me it was the same
16:01week. So, if we were to uh to, you know,
16:04do a similar uh investigation in your
16:07background, is there is there anything
16:08you can think of that anybody may have
16:10misinterpreted or anything uh in your
16:12history that somebody might say Russell
16:15Williams uh
16:16absolutely
16:17did this?
16:17No.
16:18Okay.
16:19Be very boring.
16:20What's that?
16:21It'll be very boring.
16:23All right. Because and essentially
16:24that's what I'm looking at is it uh um
16:29you seem like a very intelligent person.
16:30I think you can see how um a surprise
16:34like that would um certainly some alarm
16:36bells on our investigation, right?
16:38Okay.
16:39Um
16:41so the next thing we need to cover off
16:42is uh well I'll just ask you this
16:45straight out. Uh given the types of
16:46crimes we're investigating, uh do you
16:48get much chance to uh to watch
16:51television shows, CSI, things like that?
16:53I do watch uh I prefer Law and Order,
16:56but I do watch CSI occasionally. Yes.
16:58Okay. So you have an idea of obviously
17:00the forensic capabilities, things like
17:01that are out there.
17:03What would you be willing to give me
17:05today to help me um move past you in
17:08this investigation?
17:11What uh what do you need?
17:13Well, um would you be willing to supply
17:16things like fingerprints, blood samples,
17:18things like that? Yeah.
17:19Okay. Um footwear impressions.
17:22Yeah.
17:22Okay. All right. Um I think that's what
17:25we're going to we're going to ask you to
17:26do. All right. Now, we have a process we
17:28have to go through to do that. Okay.
17:30Um, and for the blood sample, uh, I
17:32don't take the blood sample. We have
17:33specially trained officers that are
17:34trained to do that.
17:36Uh, I'm going to step out and make sure
17:37they're still available.
17:40Can I assume you're going to be
17:42discreet?
17:43It's possible. Yeah.
17:45Cuz, uh,
17:47you know, this would have a very
17:49significant impact on the base if they
17:51thought you thought I did this. Well,
17:54uh, bottom line, Russell, it's one of
17:56the reasons we're here on a Sunday
17:57afternoon. Um, uh, the, uh, the military
18:00certainly be of great assistance for to
18:02us, especially in relation to Miss
18:03Como's investigation. So,
18:05uh, that's certainly one of the things
18:06that went into our decision to to give
18:08you a call at home today and see if we
18:09could deal with this today.
18:10Okay.
18:10So, okay. Um,
18:18cuz it's tough to undo the rumor mill
18:20once it gets started.
18:26I appreciate that.
18:27Okay.
18:29Now that you've had some time to I I
18:30know we've been throwing a lot of things
18:31at you here, but now you've had some
18:32time to to think about things. Um is
18:35there anything uh that you're concerned
18:37about uh that buckle swab matching in
18:41any of those four residences? Um is
18:43there
18:45I guess let me explain you when I get
18:47down here, Russell. Okay. Um this is a
18:50significant investigation. as you can as
18:52you can well imagine
18:54um that uh that DNA is going to be uh
18:57significant in our investigation both uh
19:00you know quite possibly to help you
19:01quite possibly to help us
19:02understood
19:03I don't know yet don't know what the
19:04result is yet
19:05um
19:07and I'll go back to the example I gave
19:09you because it's a very similar uh issue
19:11I think um and you talked about the idea
19:14of discretion here okay uh you talked
19:17about the idea that uh um you know I I
19:21think hopefully you appreciate the fact
19:22of how we approached you here.
19:24Um and essentially uh we have no issues
19:28with that. Okay. Um we we talked
19:30recently about you know the whole idea
19:32of any unusual sex acts in your history.
19:35Um but another thing can often happen in
19:37cases like this is that people um become
19:40concerned about uh um things like
19:44extrammarital affairs
19:46uh indiscretions along those lines. Um,
19:50is there any contact that you may have
19:53had with any of those four women um that
19:56you may not want your wife to be aware
19:58of? Anything like that that we should
20:00know about to try and uh explain why if
20:04if your DNA is found, it would help us
20:06understand why it may be there.
20:08Absolutely not.
20:10Can you think of any reason um why we
20:14would find your DNA in a residences?
20:16Let's let's focus on well for instance
20:18uh I believe let me just check the name
20:20there make sure I've got the right
20:21address talking about the house that was
20:23just uh a couple of doors down from you
20:25there in uh in Tweed
20:27a couple of doors down was Lori I don't
20:29know her last name but I don't know
20:31Mazakotti
20:32I don't even know what her last name is
20:34but uh
20:36there's the woman down the road
20:39three doors down her name is Lori I
20:41don't know her last make sure we're on
20:43the same page
20:49Okay. Uh my understanding is she lived
20:51at 76 Cozy Cove. Yeah. So she would be
20:54the one the second one
20:56uh the second incident on your on your
20:58road there a couple of doors down. Ever
20:59been in her house?
21:03Nope. We met her once I think the first
21:07summer
21:10um we were there was 04.
21:12Okay. And that's what I'm getting at. I
21:14I again this is a credibility issue
21:16right because
21:18I don't want to come and see you two
21:19weeks from now and say you know arrest
21:22uh
21:22our CSI people in that house and uh are
21:25you familiar with how C uh DNA works
21:29I think broadly yes I guess so
21:31um one of the challenges we have in 2010
21:34with DNA is it's become so um precise
21:38that um I guess the best way to explain
21:41it is I can think back 15 years ago when
21:43I started in uh in violent crime
21:46investigation. Yeah.
21:47Um for us to get a DNA match, the sample
21:50we had to find was um
21:53you know probably would have filled half
21:54of one of these cups.
21:56You know, cuz they destroy so much of
21:57the uh the sample in in the testing. Um,
22:01essentially DNA has become more and more
22:03precise to the point where when you and
22:06I walked in this room earlier today,
22:08uh, we could have sat down, talked for
22:1030 seconds, walked out,
22:12CSI officer could have come in
22:153 4 days from now.
22:16Yeah.
22:17Did some swabs here and he would have
22:19found your DNA and my DNA and probably a
22:21lot of other people's DNA.
22:22Sure. Um, a little bit gross to think
22:24about, but essentially, uh, you know, as
22:26we talk, um, we, you know, a little bit
22:29of aspirate comes out of our mouth that,
22:31uh, that contains our DNA. Our blood or
22:33our skin cells contain our DNA.
22:35And that's what I'm getting at. If you
22:36were ever in Lor's residence,
22:38quite possibly, quite innocently, your
22:40DNA could be uh, in that residence. Has
22:43there ever been a time you've been in
22:44there?
22:44No.
22:45Okay. Um,
22:47what about the other lady down the road
22:49on uh
22:50I hadn't even heard that name, so no, I
22:53don't I don't actually know who that
22:54was.
22:54Okay. Have you ever v visited uh Marie
22:58France Como at her residence?
22:59No.
23:00Okay. All right. Um, so you're quite
23:02positive there would be no reason why
23:03your DNA would be in any of those three
23:05locations.
23:06Okay. Um, did you know Jessica Lloyd
23:09even in passing for any reason?
23:12No, I didn't hear hear her name till it
23:14was on the news. Okay. And the reason
23:16I'm asking you that uh is because um I
23:20know you were asked that question on
23:22Thursday night and sometimes what we
23:24find and again this is one of those
23:26situations that can sometimes cause us
23:27to get in a lengthy investigation into
23:29somebody that maybe doesn't deserve it.
23:31U but what what can happen sometimes is
23:33they you know somebody gets stopped by
23:35the police like you did and they uh they
23:38get asked that question and people when
23:41they're stopped by the police they can
23:42be nervous. Okay. Um, so they blurt out
23:44an answer and then they start driving
23:46away and they go, "Why' I do that?"
23:48Because the problem is is that once they
23:50uh get asked again, then they feel
23:52compelled to maintain that answer
23:56for fear that if they change their
23:57answer, somebody could find it. You
23:59understand what I'm saying?
24:00I do.
24:00Okay. So, I want to make sure that's not
24:02happening here. I don't care what you
24:03said to the officers on Thursday night
24:04last week. Um, if there's any uh
24:07communication or contact between you and
24:09Jessica Lloyd, you've seen her picture,
24:11right, around town?
24:12Yeah. Okay. Ever seen her before?
24:15I don't No, I would say I have not.
24:17Okay. All right. All right. And you
24:20mentioned something about uh doing some
24:22renovations at your uh at your property
24:24in Tweed there. Um I think you said
24:26something early about tearing up carpet.
24:28Correct me if I'm wrong, but Oh, yeah.
24:29Okay. When did all that happen?
24:31In 2004 or five.
24:34Okay. Any recent uh renovations? No.
24:36Okay. All right.
24:45Just want to make sure I'm covering all
24:47the bases here. Um,
24:50[Applause]
24:52okay. What kind of tires do you have on
24:54your Pathfinder?
24:56[Applause]
24:59I think um I think they're
25:01Toyo.
25:02Okay. Do you know the brand name or
25:04sorry the
25:06um I don't sorry the make is Toyo. Yeah.
25:10I don't know the model.
25:11Okay.
25:15See read this off PSC if it rings a
25:17bell.
25:24Ever heard of uh does Toyo Open Country
25:28HTS
25:30make any sense?
25:30Okay. When did you have those tires put
25:32on your Pathfinder?
25:35Well, it's the second version we've had
25:37of them. So, uh
25:41I think it might have been this past
25:42fall, but they replaced other ones we've
25:45had on the same
25:47Okay.
25:48Well, Toyo, I can't say that they were
25:49the same exactly the same model, but uh
25:52our dealership here in Ottawa says
25:54they're very popular for the
25:55Pathfinders. Okay.
25:56And they were good. They lasted a long
25:58time.
25:59All right. Um,
26:02I've had to I think you were talking
26:05about the the whole idea of the MPs uh
26:07helping us with our investigation, stuff
26:09like this. You have the same system as
26:11we do at our headquarters with the swipe
26:12cards.
26:13Um, one of the things uh one of our
26:16investigators did is they made a call
26:17while I was talking to you there um
26:19because we were trying to work through
26:20that week of the uh the 23rd of
26:22November.
26:23Okay.
26:23Um 23rd being the Monday, uh 24th being
26:26the Tuesday.
26:27Okay. Um what what they've what they've
26:30told us is that um and I want to make
26:32sure I get this right is that uh on the
26:3523rd uh your swipe card was being used
26:38at the base. Okay.
26:40Okay.
26:40Uh on Tuesday 24th there was no use of
26:43your swipe card.
26:44Okay. And then on the uh the following
26:46days uh the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday
26:48um there was what appeared to be average
26:50activity of your swipe card in the base.
26:52Does that make sense to you?
26:53It does. That that says that I was in
26:56Ottawa on the Tuesday.
26:57Okay. Do you remember where in Ottawa
26:59you were?
27:00Yeah, I was in Gatnau with uh as I said
27:03meeting about the uh C17.
27:06Okay. Um now again I want to be fair to
27:09you here. We're going back two months.
27:11Um are you sure that would have been the
27:13uh the day you were in Ottawa?
27:15Well,
27:17only because I wasn't at the base.
27:19Okay. So, I I can't remember honestly
27:22that that's the day I had the meeting in
27:24Ottawa, but uh if I wasn't at the base,
27:26it was because I was here.
27:27Okay. Now, if that is the day you had
27:30the meeting in Ottawa, um do you
27:31remember being at the base on the Monday
27:34uh the 23rd and swiping your card in and
27:37out, do you remember what you would have
27:38done that evening to to to get to Ottawa
27:40for that meeting? Like, would it be uh
27:44I drove to Ottawa in the morning of the
27:46day of my meeting. So if it was the
27:48Tuesday then I would have left uh Tweed.
27:50It was a very foggy morning.
27:52Okay.
27:52Uh that morning and I drove in that
27:55morning.
27:56Okay.
27:56So I would not have been at the base uh
28:00the day I was in Ottawa because the
28:01meeting started at 8:30 or something.
28:04Okay. So you leave the base, you would
28:06have went home to to your residence in
28:08Tweed.
28:09Yep.
28:10And then you left Tweed in the morning
28:11and drove up to your meeting in Ottawa.
28:12Y Okay. Um, you leave the the meeting in
28:15Ottawa is a daytime meeting, evening
28:18meeting or do you remember?
28:19Uh, yeah, it was a a daytime meeting.
28:21Finished, I don't know, mid-after
28:23afternoon or so.
28:24Okay.
28:24We had lunch and then uh finished. I
28:26think uh my wife and I had dinner cuz
28:29she was here for work and then I headed
28:30back.
28:31Okay. Um, well, that's these are the
28:34kind of things I'm trying to draw out
28:35here. That's helpful to us. Um, do you
28:37remember where you had dinner?
28:40Uh well, I don't remember exactly the
28:42restaurant, but it was in Westboro
28:43because that's where our house was being
28:44built at the time. So, we had dinner,
28:47you know, in a restaurant that we would
28:50expect to be able to frequent uh once
28:52the house was finished.
28:53Okay. Remember how you paid?
28:55Uh one of us was paid by Mastercard.
28:58Yeah.
28:58Okay. Are you sure about that or
29:01Pretty sure that's normally how we uh
29:03Okay.
29:04We pay for meals.
29:05All right.
29:05Can't remember if it was me or my wife
29:07that paid, but one of us. Okay. And do
29:08you remember which restaurant it was
29:10again?
29:10No.
29:11Okay. All right. And you see what I'm
29:13getting at, right? I mean, that can be
29:15very helpful for us because if we can
29:17track
29:18uh that issue, right? We can we can put
29:20somebody paying for a meal at at a
29:22location.
29:22I was meeting with uh you know, 15
29:24people or so that day. So,
29:26Okay. What time did the meeting end?
29:31I would say between 3 and 4.
29:33Okay. And um are you sure that that's
29:35the same day you went out with your
29:37wife?
29:39Wow.
29:42I think so. Yeah, cuz she was here and
29:45uh
29:48I I think that was the day we went to
29:49this restaurant in Westboro. Yes.
29:51Okay. Um you finished dinner and do you
29:55remember what you did that evening?
29:57I would have driven back to Tweed.
29:58Okay. and you would have now again I
30:02know we're talking two months ago here
30:04but do you remember specifically having
30:06dinner and then driving back to tweet or
30:07uh do you remember are you just guessing
30:11here?
30:13No, I'm not really guessing. I mean I I
30:15believe that this night at this
30:17restaurant was following the meetings in
30:19Ottawa
30:21and I you know kissed my wife goodbye
30:24and headed back to Tweet to go to work
30:26the next day.
30:27Okay. Um,
30:29all right. The uh the tires that you
30:33have on your truck, right? The reason I
30:35ask you about that is there
30:36is there any time I mean you recall uh
30:39where you were stopped um by the
30:41officers there?
30:43Yes.
30:43Okay. Did they explain to you what the
30:45significance of her house?
30:46That was her house. Okay. So, you
30:47remember that location?
30:48Yep.
30:49Do you remember what the crossroad was
30:50or
30:52I don't think there was a crossroad.
30:53It's sort of just uh the south end of
30:5537.
30:56Okay.
30:57um when you get stopped at that
30:59location, has there been a time in the
31:02recent uh one or two weeks that uh your
31:06vehicle has uh left that road for any
31:09reason whatsoever? Have you driven into
31:10a field with your vehicle at all? Um for
31:13any reason you can think of?
31:15No.
31:15Okay. Um because I want you to rack your
31:18brain here. This is important. So,
31:19is there anything you can remember doing
31:21that uh you know
31:24would have caused you to to uh drive off
31:26the road? No.
31:27At that section of roadway?
31:28No, that's my early uh that's the early
31:30part of the highway and um just head
31:33north. It's about 30 minutes from there
31:34to uh probably 20 from there to my
31:38house.
31:39Okay. Um, would it surprise you to know
31:42that uh when the CSI officers were uh
31:45looking around her property uh that they
31:48identified um a set of tire tracks uh to
31:52the north of her property? Um looks as
31:55if the vehicle left the road
31:58and uh drove along the north tree line
32:00of of Jessica Lloyd's property. Okay.
32:02Okay. Um they took uh they examined
32:07those tire tracks
32:08and uh they have contacts in the tire
32:12business. Obviously tire tracks are a
32:13major source of uh evidence for us.
32:15Sure.
32:16Um shortly after um this investigation
32:19started, they identified those tires as
32:22the same uh tires on your Pathfinder.
32:25Really?
32:25Yeah.
32:27Okay. Okay. One of the other uh one of
32:30the other things that they do to try and
32:32identify the type of vehicle that may
32:34have left those tires well is they do
32:35two things. They they talk to witnesses.
32:37Okay.
32:38Um there was a uh a female police
32:41officer that actually drove by that
32:42location uh that evening
32:45and recall seeing an SUV type vehicle in
32:48the field to the north of Jessica
32:49Lloyd's house uh consistent with a a
32:52Pathfinder. Okay. Maybe consistent with
32:54other things but consistent with
32:55Pathfinder.
32:57Um, and they uh what they also do to try
33:00and identify the type of the vehicle is
33:02they look at uh what they call the
33:04wheelbase width. Okay? Cuz different
33:06vehicles, different makes, models have
33:07wheelbase width. So they can take those
33:09two sets of tire tracks,
33:10measure the distance between them, okay?
33:13And determine
33:14what the uh the width is. And then they
33:16can enter that into a vehicle database
33:18and it will spit out the types of
33:19vehicles. Okay.
33:21um your Pathfinder's wheelbase width is
33:25very very close to the width of the uh
33:28of the tires uh that were left in that
33:30field. Okay. Um
33:33do you have any recollection at all of
33:35being off that road?
33:36I was not off the road. No.
33:38Okay. All right.
33:41Russell, um
33:44is there anything you can think of?
33:46Let's go talk about Marie France Como
33:48for a minute. Okay.
33:49Mhm. Is there any reason at all you can
33:52think of that during our investigation,
33:56obviously we're searching uh computers,
33:59uh things like Blackberries, right?
34:02Electronic devices, uh looking through
34:05houses for things that are in
34:06handwriting, written notes, diaries,
34:08things like that. Mhm.
34:09Um, now I'm not at liberty to tell you
34:11what the content was, but is there any
34:13reason at all you can think of why Marie
34:16France Como would have specifically
34:19referenced you in some of her uh some of
34:21her writings?
34:24Not at all.
34:25No.
34:26No. Absolutely not.
34:28Okay. Is there anything that she ever
34:30said to you that led you to believe that
34:32there might be something uh more than a
34:34passing interest with her towards you?
34:37Not at all. No. We spent, you know, one
34:39flight together talking, I'd go back
34:42occasionally and talk.
34:45No, I that if that's the case, that's
34:48it. That's very surprising.
34:50Okay. All right. Um, you have any
34:52questions for me right now?
34:53No.
34:54Okay. I'm just going to step out and see
34:55how things are going. Okay. I mean, it
34:57is a Sunday, but there's probably 60 70
34:59people working on this file, so there's
35:00a lot of things happening. Sure. Uh, so
35:02let me go out and see what's happening,
35:03and then I'll uh I'll come back in and
35:05we'll hopefully continue. Okay.
35:08I told you when I came in here uh that
35:09I'm going to treat you with respect and
35:11I've asked you to do the same for me. Um
35:15we talked about the whole idea of how
35:17we've uh approached you here. Okay. Uh
35:20the trying to be as discreet as
35:22possible.
35:23Okay. But the problem is Russell is
35:26every time I walk out of this room
35:28there's another issue that comes up.
35:30Okay. And it's not issues that point
35:32away from you. It's issues that point at
35:33you. Okay. And I want I want you to see
35:35what I mean. All right.
35:40This is the footwear impression
35:45of the person who approached
35:48the rear of Jessica Lloyd's house.
35:51Mhm.
35:51On the evening of the 28th and 29th of
35:54January. Okay.
35:56All right. Now, I want you to keep in
35:58mind that this is slightly smaller.
36:00Okay. In scale. Okay.
36:02Okay.
36:02All right. That's not to scale. That's
36:04the footwear is actually bigger.
36:05Okay. If you look here on the ruler,
36:07you'll see that uh one inch is just
36:10slightly smaller than an actual inch.
36:12Okay? But this is the way it prints off
36:13on the computer.
36:16I'm going to move this over so you can
36:17see what I mean. All right? Cuz
36:19essentially when you're dealing with
36:20footwear impressions, um we have a
36:22gentleman on the OP who's uh basically
36:24worldrenowned. His name is John Norman.
36:27And essentially with footwware
36:29impressions, uh, you're in a situation
36:31where you're you're pretty much in the
36:33area of of fingerprints. Okay?
36:36And essentially what we're talking about
36:38here is especially when you start adding
36:40in other pieces of of uh information
36:42that uh support uh an investigative
36:45position. Okay.
36:50This is a photocopy of the boot that uh
36:54you took off your foot.
36:56Yeah. just a little while ago. Okay.
36:58Now, I'm not an expert on footwear
37:01impressions, so I rely on the experts.
37:04Footwear impressions are very much like
37:06uh like fingerprint comparisons. Okay.
37:09You take a look at this print. And
37:10again, this is one print. This person
37:12walked through. There's several
37:14different prints to compare. So, we're
37:16going to get features off of one print
37:17to compare, features off another print
37:19to compare. Y
37:21these are identical.
37:27Okay.
37:28Your vehicle drove up the side of
37:31Jessica Lloyd's house.
37:33Your boots walked to the back of Jessica
37:36Lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th
37:39and 29th of January.
37:42Okay. You want discretion.
37:44We need to have some honesty. Okay.
37:47Because this is this is getting out of
37:49control really fast, Russell.
37:52Okay. really really fast.
37:56[Music]
38:10This is getting beyond my control.
38:14All right. I came in here a few hours
38:16ago
38:18and I called you the way I called you
38:20today because I wanted to give you the
38:21benefit of doubt. Mhm.
38:22But you and I both know
38:24you were at Jessica Lloyd's house, and I
38:27need to know why.
38:35[Music]
38:59I don't know what to say. That's
39:02Well, you need to explain it because
39:04this is the other problem we're having,
39:05Russell. Okay. Again, these decisions
39:08are made by me.
39:10Right now, there's a search warrant
39:11being executed at your residence in
39:14Ottawa. Okay. So, your wife now knows
39:16what's going on.
39:18There's a search war being executed at
39:21the your residence in Tweed and your
39:23vehicle's been seized. Okay.
39:26You and I both know they're going to
39:28find evidence that links you to these
39:32situations.
39:34Okay. You and I both know that the
39:36unknown offender male
39:41on Marie France Como's body is going to
39:44be matched to you quite possibly before
39:46the evening's over.
39:49Okay. This is a major investigation. The
39:52center of forensic science is on call 24
39:54hours a day helping us with this. M
39:58your opportunity to take some control
40:00here and to have some explanation that
40:04anybody is going to believe
40:07is
40:10quickly expiring.
40:14Okay,
40:15we're applying the investigators now
40:18applying for a warrant to search your
40:19office.
40:23Right. These aren't decisions that we
40:24can say yes or no to. This is a
40:26practical steps in an investigation like
40:29this
40:32and Russell
40:53Russell,
40:55listen to me for a second, okay? When
40:57that evidence comes in, when that DNA
40:59match, when that phone rings and
41:01somebody knocks on this door, Mhm.
41:05your credibility is gone, okay? Because
41:08this is how credibility works. All
41:10right? And I know you're an intelligent
41:11person and you probably don't need to
41:12hear this explanation, but I also know
41:14your mind's racing right now. Okay?
41:16Okay. Cuz I've sat across a lot of
41:18people in your position over the years.
41:19Okay.
41:20The bottom line is is that as soon as we
41:23get that that piece of evidence that
41:25solidifies it,
41:27DNA. Okay. As soon as the expert
41:31in footwear impressions, the expert in
41:33tire impressions calls and says, "Yes,
41:36I've examined those and they're a
41:38match." Mhm.
41:41It's all over. Because as soon as that
41:43happens,
41:45where's your credibility? Where's your
41:47believability? You're just another uh
41:51and again, don't take this wrong, okay?
41:54But you can see if you step outside this
41:56room in your mind and imagine how people
41:59are going to view you, okay? If the
42:02truth comes out after the clear evidence
42:06is presented to you, when you finally
42:08go, "Okay,
42:10I'm screwed now."
42:11Mhm.
42:12What are we going to do,
42:22Russell?
42:24You know there's only one option. What
42:26do you What do you What other option is
42:28there?
42:29What's the option?
42:31Well, I don't think you want the cold
42:33blooded psychopath option.
42:39I might be wrong,
42:43okay? Because don't get me wrong, I've
42:44met guys who actually kind of enjoyed
42:46the notoriety, got off on it,
42:50got off on having that label,
42:53Bernardo being one of them. I don't see
42:56that in you. If I saw that in you, I
42:58wouldn't be back in here talking to you,
42:59quite frankly.
43:07But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you got me
43:09fooled. I don't know.
43:16This is over.
43:20And it can have a
43:23a bad ending where Jessica's parents
43:27continue
43:29to wonder where her daughter's lying.
43:37And I don't know. I mean, obviously,
43:39there's a huge search still underway,
43:41and it'll continue.
43:44It'll continue until her body's found.
43:50That might even happen tonight for all I
43:52know.
43:56Once that happens,
43:59then I don't know what other card you
44:00would have to play.
44:10What are we going to do?
44:46What are we going to do?
44:54Call me Russ, please.
44:55Okay.
45:00Are we going to do Russ?
45:27Is Jessica somewhere we can find her
45:28easily?
45:31Like, is this something where I can make
45:32a call and tell somebody to go to a
45:34location and they're going to find her,
45:35or is this something where we have to go
45:36and and uh
45:40take a walk?
46:05Which direction are we heading in here?
46:52Russ,
46:54maybe maybe this would help. Can you
46:55tell me what the issue is you're
46:58struggling with?
47:24What is who you're struggling with?
48:29It's hard to believe this is happening.
48:35Why is that?
48:59Why is it hard to believe?
49:21It's just it's just hard to believe.
49:28Whose decision was it? And we're going
49:32to find out the answer to this anyway,
49:34but whose decision was it to issue the
49:37uh the directive to the base personnel
49:40that nobody had to speak to the police
49:41and to seek legal counsel before they
49:43were questioned?
49:48My
49:48You don't think that was
49:50my understanding that direction came
49:51from somebody that reports to you.
49:55What do you think they're going to say,
49:57Russ?
49:58No. No.
49:59What do you think they're going to say?
50:00All right. And and let's let's step back
50:02for a second here. Okay.
50:05I really don't think it benefits you or
50:07makes you look any better to start
50:08debating the little issues.
50:10But that is news to me.
50:11Okay.
50:12I have a legal officer that reports to
50:14me.
50:14Yeah.
50:15Who may have given that direction.
50:17Okay.
50:17But that's the first time I've heard it.
50:18If that's true, that's the first time
50:19I've heard that.
50:20All right. And that may be the case. But
50:23how does it look?
50:28Right.
50:29We're not even dealing with something
50:31that's really even evidence because it's
50:32not needed. I mean, when you have DNA
50:34and all this other stuff that's not even
50:38I don't recall, but it was something
50:40along the lines of of uh telling the
50:42people on the base that they didn't uh
50:44they weren't required legally to speak
50:46with police and they should seek legal
50:48counsel before they decided to speak.
50:50But
50:50well, if that was if that was actually
50:52said, it would not have been to the base
50:54at large. It it may have been to the
50:56individual the uh the boyfriend who is
50:58the suspect.
51:00Okay. My understanding it went out to
51:01all personnel. No. Maybe. Maybe. No.
51:03Only under your command. I don't know.
51:05Okay. That's fine.
51:06I didn't never see it.
51:07That's fine. Now, let's get back to the
51:08issue. What's that?
51:10So, you talk about perception. My only
51:12two immediate concerns from a perception
51:14perspective are
51:17what my wife must be going through right
51:19now.
51:19Yeah.
51:21and the impact this is going to have on
51:23the Canadian forces. Where do we go?
51:43Russ, is there anything you want from
51:44me?
51:47Is there anything you want me to
51:48explain?
51:50Is there something missing that you're
51:52struggling with that I can shed some
51:54light on for you?
52:03I'm struggling with how upset my wife is
52:05right now.
52:07Br, what are you looking for?
52:18I'm concerned that they're tearing apart
52:20my wife's brand new house. So am I.
52:25But if nobody tells them
52:28what's there, what's not, they don't
52:31have any choice.
52:34Computers will be brought to Microsoft
52:36in California. They'll be they'll be
52:39picked apart. You can't erase things
52:42from computers.
52:44It doesn't happen. I'm sure you've seen
52:45that. I'm sure that's pretty common
52:47knowledge these days. It just doesn't
52:49happen. There's they sell programs that
52:52uh to try and help people clean their
52:55computers of stuff and our guys are
52:58pulling that stuff out all the time. The
52:59FBI is pulling that stuff out all the
53:01time.
53:10This investigation
53:12will end up costing no less than $10
53:14million.
53:18Easy.
53:21And they will say no to nothing.
53:26Any request
53:28this major case manager makes on this
53:30case, they've already been told it's
53:33approved. Don't even bother asking.
54:06So, what am I doing? Russ,
54:10I put my best foot forward here for you,
54:12bud.
54:19I really have. I don't I don't know what
54:21else to do to to m make you understand
54:23the impact of what's happening here.
54:44Did we talk?
54:48I want to um
54:52minimize the impact on my wife.
54:54So do I.
55:00So how do we do that?
55:02Well, we start by telling the truth.
55:33It's okay. Okay.
55:37So, where is she?
56:00got a map.
56:02Um, is she close to where she lives?
56:04I've got maps of that general area.
56:12Which town is she near? Why don't we
56:13start there?
56:20I'm not sure if you give me a map of U.
56:24It covers Caligar down to the highway
56:29and over to Tweed
56:32and so I'll show you. Let me see what I
56:35got here. I might have something.
56:38Is she inside? Outside.
56:42[Music]
56:51[Music]
57:00[Applause]
57:07It's probably the biggest area I have
57:09there for us.
57:11Yeah, I need more. We need a real map.
57:13So, where am I going on the on here to
57:15get to her?
57:18In this block here.
57:20Okay. So, you're pointing to
57:22a detailed map of that area and I'll
57:24show you where she is.
57:26Okay. Is she close to a road?
57:28Yep.
57:29All right. Um,
57:32is it something where is she is she
57:34buried or is she somewhere where if you
57:36walk there you would you would fairly
57:38easily see her?
57:38It's here.
57:40Okay. So, she's south of seven. Uh, east
57:44of Tweed,
57:45west of 41.
57:46Mhm.
57:47And, uh, what's this road here?
57:51Not sure.
57:52Neither am I.
57:54Okay, I'll be right back. Okay. Do you
57:56want any water or anything?
57:58Sure.
57:59Okay, I'll be right back.
58:04How long has she been there for?
58:06[Applause]
58:11A little over a week.
58:13Was it fairly quick from the time
58:16she left?
58:18Friday night.
58:20Friday night.
58:21Yeah.
58:22So, where was she between Thursday night
58:23and Friday night?
58:25In tweet
58:26with you.
58:27Yep.
58:29How long was she alive for?
58:36almost 24 hours. Not quite.
58:39Okay,
58:41Russ.
58:43You're doing the right thing here.
58:47Okay.
58:48Well, again, my interest is in um making
58:52my my wife's life a little easier
58:55and her family as well. But
58:59we share that interest.
59:00But there's no uh your time in Ottawa is
59:02wasted. Really? I'll tell you where the
59:05number cards are.
59:07Where are they?
59:09They're in the house there, but
59:11in Ottawa.
59:12Yeah.
59:13Whereabouts?
59:15Um,
59:17some in the camera bag, which they would
59:19have found in my office.
59:20Mhm.
59:21And in the when you walk into the office
59:23on the left side, there's a um
59:28dusted drawers, side drawers, like a
59:32filing cabinet. wooden IKEA
59:36in one of the top two drawers and
59:38there's a plastic divider.
59:40Yeah.
59:42And there's uh inside there there are
59:45two memory cards.
59:47Okay.
59:48Which are blank, but I'm sure they can
59:50be re.
59:51And whose images are on those cards?
59:54Uh well, I've erased them, but I expect
59:59uh you'll be able to draw images of uh
1:00:02Jessica and I.
1:00:05What about Marie?
1:00:14There may be images on there as well.
1:00:17Okay. And the two women from September.
1:00:20Yep.
1:00:22Okay.
1:00:23Do you have those images stored anywhere
1:00:25else?
1:00:30Yeah, there are um two hard drives in
1:00:33the house in Ottawa.
1:00:36I can draw you a little picture.
1:00:40Sure. Do you want to do that now while
1:00:41I'm getting the map? Okay.
1:00:49You
1:00:49want anything to eat or anything?
1:00:55Is that with you? Okay.
1:01:14But I do want to talk to you again.
1:01:19That's the plan. Okay.
1:01:27I'll be right back.
1:01:43How you make it up there?
1:01:49Thank you.
1:01:52making out. Sorry.
1:02:02There's somebody running around looking
1:02:03for an actual map, but uh I did the same
1:02:06thing with uh the Google maps. We just
1:02:09have to glue them up a little bit more.
1:02:12Um,
1:02:18this is the this is the biggest of the
1:02:20area.
1:02:24This might have better parameters for
1:02:25you. First tweet
1:02:417 km from this intersection on the road.
1:02:46And what road is that? Kerry
1:02:49south of can't read that word.
1:02:53Uh, East Hungerford.
1:02:56Does that make sense?
1:02:58Oh, there it is. There. Okay.
1:03:00How far off the road is she?
1:03:0240 ft.
1:03:03She bar is she covered with anything?
1:03:08She wrapped up.
1:03:09She's on the surface. Just
1:03:13a gray something or there cover. Okay.
1:03:18Barry, the obvious question I'm going to
1:03:20have for you is
1:03:24when they go there, and they'll be there
1:03:25shortly,
1:03:26they're going to find her.
1:03:27Oh, yeah.
1:03:28Okay. I'll be right back.
1:03:33You look like you want to say something.
1:03:35Just that the this place, my wife, it's
1:03:38been a dream for better part of a year.
1:03:41So, I'm keen to get them what they need
1:03:43and so they can leave right alone.
1:03:45Okay. Well, we're going to do our best
1:03:47to keep that as low key as possible.
1:03:48Okay. What do you want to talk about?
1:03:54Cuz it's uh pretty wide open now.
1:03:57Yeah.
1:03:57What do you want to know?
1:03:59Well, do you want to work forwards or
1:04:01backwards?
1:04:04Doesn't matter.
1:04:06Why don't we start with Jessica? Okay.
1:04:10How does that start for you?
1:04:13[Music]
1:04:15Um,
1:04:17I saw her in her house on her treadmill.
1:04:23Wouldn't stand out, I guess.
1:04:28Then I noticed she wasn't um
1:04:31there Thursday.
1:04:35So, I got into the house, look around,
1:04:42then um
1:04:45and then left.
1:04:47Noticed she'd come home.
1:04:52So, I went back in
1:04:56through the uh back patio door
1:05:00while she was sleeping.
1:05:13Okay,
1:05:18so I woke her up.
1:05:32Didn't um
1:05:33can hit her. She only hit her once.
1:05:36Friday night.
1:05:54Okay.
1:06:02Well, so I raped her in uh in her house
1:06:09and then I took her to the car and took
1:06:11her to tweet.
1:06:25And um
1:06:30spent the day in Tweed
1:06:38and then I hit her uh as we were
1:06:41walking. She thought we were leaving.
1:06:48Hit her on the back of the head.
1:07:01Okay.
1:07:06Particular.
1:07:07Well, um, what did the hit on the back
1:07:10of the head do?
1:07:15Well, I was surprised it, uh, her her
1:07:19skull gave way.
1:07:22She was there and immediately
1:07:24unconscious
1:07:26and I strangled her.
1:07:29Okay.
1:07:31What did you hit her with?
1:07:33Flashlight.
1:07:35Okay. In the house or outside the house?
1:07:38In the house.
1:07:42Yeah. They'll find signs of that.
1:07:47Where in the house did this happen?
1:07:50in the main portion just in front of the
1:07:51fireplace.
1:07:53What do you mean they'll find signs of
1:07:55it?
1:07:55Oh, there's quite a bit of blood. I had
1:07:57expected I'd expected to knock her out,
1:08:04but obviously generated a lot of blood.
1:08:07What did she bleed onto?
1:08:09The floor. It's just tile floor.
1:08:13Okay. Did you clean it up or did you
1:08:15I I wiped it up.
1:08:18I know it'll be easily spotted.
1:08:21Well, it makes you think that like if I
1:08:24walked in that house right now, I see
1:08:26it.
1:08:26You wouldn't see it? Not at all. But,
1:08:28uh,
1:08:29yeah.
1:08:30All right. Science. We'll uh we'll show
1:08:32it, I'm sure.
1:08:34Okay. Um, so when that happened, was she
1:08:38did she have clothes on or was she
1:08:39naked?
1:08:40She was dressed.
1:08:41Okay. So, when we find her, is she going
1:08:43to have those clothes on, too?
1:08:45Right.
1:08:47All right. Um,
1:08:51okay.
1:08:53Marie France, uh, Como.
1:09:04There was an open window in the basement
1:09:05of her uh, her house when she was away.
1:09:11I went in there a couple of nights
1:09:13before she came home.
1:09:16looked around.
1:09:21I went back in there late at night when
1:09:24she was at home.
1:09:26Was on the phone in her bedroom.
1:09:34She actually discovered me in the
1:09:36basement.
1:09:40She was trying to get her cat to come
1:09:41upstairs and the cat was in the basement
1:09:44and seen me and was fixated on me in the
1:09:46corner. She couldn't get the cat up. So,
1:09:49uh,
1:09:51she came downstairs to try and get the
1:09:53cat and
1:09:55I'm not sure why she uh came over to me.
1:09:59I guess the cat was staring at me and
1:10:00she was wondering why the cat was
1:10:01staring at.
1:10:06Lights were on.
1:10:15So when she spotted me, I um
1:10:19I had the same flashlight.
1:10:22I subdued her,
1:10:28tied her up, brought upstairs.
1:10:39and uh strangled her
1:10:44later in the morning.
1:10:50Well, suffocated her, right?
1:10:55Some tape.
1:11:03left her there.
1:11:11How did you subdue her? And when you say
1:11:12subdued her in the basement, what did
1:11:14you do?
1:11:16Well, I had the same flashlight
1:11:19and um
1:11:22you know,
1:11:25she she saw me right away. So, it's just
1:11:28uh I hit her a couple of times in around
1:11:31her head, try and knock her out,
1:11:35didn't but um she was bleeding a little
1:11:38bit.
1:11:44Eventually um
1:11:48struggled to subdue her.
1:11:54Okay. Any blood from from that struggle?
1:11:58Oh, yeah. No, not not a whole bunch, but
1:12:01uh flashlight did break her skin a
1:12:05couple of times.
1:12:07Okay. What area of the basement did that
1:12:10take place in?
1:12:13I was hiding behind the furnace, so she
1:12:16spotted me right there.
1:12:18Okay. Did she recognize you?
1:12:21No, I had uh stuff on my face.
1:12:26Okay.
1:12:34Um,
1:12:36so you go upstairs and you said uh she
1:12:39suffocated.
1:12:41Well, I suffocate her. I put tape on her
1:12:43um I put tape on her mouth
1:12:47and then I put tape on her nose and
1:12:52held it there so she couldn't breathe.
1:12:59Okay.
1:13:01Um what kind of tape was it?
1:13:08What happened to it?
1:13:13Well, I took it with me and uh
1:13:23can't can't remember what actually I did
1:13:24with that tape, but uh probably threw it
1:13:27in the garbage.
1:13:30Did you use tape for any other purposes?
1:13:39No.
1:13:40Okay. Um, did she ever recognize you
1:13:44through this whole episode?
1:13:46No.
1:13:46What did you say you had on your face?
1:13:51Uh, just a a cover for my head. Just a,
1:13:54you know, a
1:13:56sports
1:13:58pullover type like just a little cap
1:14:00kind of thing.
1:14:01Okay. There's a
1:14:05mecher
1:14:08or something
1:14:10and a um
1:14:14just a headband over my nose enough. So
1:14:18covered most everything but my eyes.
1:14:20Okay.
1:14:24Um now this flashlight, where is that
1:14:27now?
1:14:28In tweet.
1:14:29In the house.
1:14:30Yeah. What kind of flashlight is it?
1:14:32It's a red uh 3D.
1:14:38I'm not sure
1:14:40what brand it is, but it's a metal. You
1:14:41know, one of these aluminum.
1:14:44It's like a big um
1:14:50I don't remember what brand
1:14:52aircraft aluminum
1:14:54flashlights already. Anyway, it's a big
1:14:56bigger one of those.
1:14:59Um, did you take anything out of uh
1:15:03Marie Franc's house or Jessica Lloyd's
1:15:05house?
1:15:06Uh, yeah. Some of their underwear.
1:15:11Okay,
1:15:11that's all.
1:15:12And where is that?
1:15:16Um,
1:15:23it's in some boxes
1:15:27in the basement here in Ottawa in that
1:15:29Rick room.
1:15:32So, we just moved in. So, there are
1:15:33boxes everywhere. So, on the same side
1:15:35as the furnished room,
1:15:37sort of in the back against the wall.
1:15:40Okay. What do the other boxes look like?
1:15:45Um, I think one's a scanner. The box for
1:15:49my scanner.
1:15:50Mhm.
1:15:53They're They're all right next to each
1:15:55other. So, quick look through the boxes
1:15:56there.
1:16:00Okay. How much underwear is in those
1:16:02boxes?
1:16:07Um,
1:16:10probably 60 pieces or something. All
1:16:13women's.
1:16:15Yeah. 60 pieces of theirs.
1:16:19Of who's
1:16:20of Jessica's and uh
1:16:24Mar.
1:16:28So you took 60 pieces from between the
1:16:30two of them.
1:16:31Yeah.
1:16:32Okay.
1:16:35All right. Um and they're in like when
1:16:38you talk about scanner, is it a computer
1:16:39scanner box? My computer's scanner is up
1:16:41in the office and its box is down in the
1:16:43basement. So,
1:16:44okay,
1:16:44it's inside that box.
1:16:46Is any of the under anywhere in those
1:16:48boxes belong to anyone other than Marie
1:16:49Fron or uh or Jessica?
1:16:54Um
1:16:59yeah, there's some from each of the
1:17:01other two women.
1:17:02Okay.
1:17:05Uh why don't we talk about those two
1:17:06women? Um, so the first one happened on
1:17:10the 16th and I don't know why I can't
1:17:13recall their names, but uh
1:17:17the lady that was uh live closer to you.
1:17:21No, Lori was closer to me.
1:17:23Okay.
1:17:28So the first uh the first one
1:17:33I had just spotted her
1:17:36from our boat actually
1:17:41got into the house while she was uh
1:17:44asleep. Noticed that she was alone
1:17:52and uh
1:17:55just hit her with my hand while she was
1:17:56sleeping.
1:18:02subdued her
1:18:06mostly just my weight on top of her.
1:18:16Um,
1:18:18had her take off her pajamas,
1:18:21took some pictures,
1:18:24took some of her underwear, and left.
1:18:31And the other woman,
1:18:34same kind of deal. Went through the back
1:18:36of the house.
1:18:41She was sleeping in her um not in her
1:18:43bedroom, but in her, you know, front of
1:18:46the TV.
1:18:49Very much the same story.
1:18:56anything different about that story? I
1:18:58mean, pretty much same story and exactly
1:19:00the same story or two different things,
1:19:01right?
1:19:01Yeah. No. Uh, not much different at all.
1:19:04Um, I did have the flashlight that time.
1:19:08I hit her with a flashlight
1:19:11and thinking it would knock her out.
1:19:14Didn't.
1:19:15So, I subdued her with my weight.
1:19:21Took off her clothes. took some pictures
1:19:23and left.
1:19:32Why do you think these things happen?
1:19:49Have you spent much time thinking about
1:19:51that?
1:19:52about why.
1:19:53Yeah.
1:19:55Yeah.
1:20:00But I don't have the answers.
1:20:07And I'm pretty sure the answers don't
1:20:08matter.
1:20:11Well, let me let me ask you this. Did
1:20:12you like or dislike these women?
1:20:17I didn't know any of them.
1:20:20Okay.
1:20:21I had met Marie France that one time in
1:20:25that in our airplane.
1:20:27Okay. Now, I guess I guess when you're
1:20:30going through these things, um
1:20:35are you Well, let me let's talk about
1:20:37Jessica cuz she was there with you for
1:20:39the whole day, right?
1:20:41What kind of feelings were you
1:20:42experiencing while you were with her
1:20:44that day?
1:21:00Oh, she's a very nice girl.
1:21:13Can you tell me why you killed her?
1:21:15Rest. Do you know why you killed her?
1:21:18Well, I think I killed her because I
1:21:20knew that uh
1:21:31her story would be recognized.
1:21:38Her story would be recognized. How do
1:21:40you mean?
1:21:42Well, cuz she knew I was taking
1:21:44pictures.
1:21:47Mhm.
1:21:53So because of the u two
1:21:59stories in tweed
1:22:04that would have been a fairly
1:22:09been quite obvious.
1:22:14So if you didn't take pictures what
1:22:16would you have done with her?
1:22:21I don't know.
1:22:23I mean, she's at your house, right?
1:22:27Um
1:22:29well, let me ask you this. Is it uh
1:22:33two lived, right, and two died?
1:22:37What's what was the difference in your
1:22:39mind between
1:22:41Well, the uh
1:22:44the attention the first two got
1:22:48um
1:22:51was very much f focused on
1:22:55obviously
1:22:56or for obvious reasons uh pictures I
1:22:59took.
1:23:05So anybody else telling stories about
1:23:08pictures, right, would have been
1:23:12a fairly straight line.
1:23:18Okay. But when when this thing happened
1:23:21with Marie France,
1:23:23it was was did you believe that you were
1:23:26already a suspect for what happened in
1:23:30Tweet?
1:23:31No.
1:23:33So what what were you concerned about?
1:23:39Well, because um
1:23:47I was pretty sure that uh
1:23:51you know she was serving military,
1:23:54right?
1:23:54Mhm.
1:23:56It would have been uh
1:23:58it would have been difficult for
1:24:01investigators to ignore
1:24:04that connection.
1:24:07Okay.
1:24:10Yeah, makes sense. Um
1:24:16let's go back to Jessica then. Okay. Um
1:24:21you see her on the Wednesday night.
1:24:23Okay. on a treadmill.
1:24:26How do you see her?
1:24:28She was in the basement window wide open
1:24:31on a treadmill as I drove by.
1:24:37Okay. Do Did you stop to look at the
1:24:39house or how how does that catch your
1:24:42eye as you drive by?
1:24:45Well, I was looking to see who was who
1:24:47is where.
1:24:50Don't know that area very well. So, I
1:24:53was just keeping my eyes open.
1:24:57Okay.
1:24:59So, you spot her on the way and say,
1:25:01"Yeah."
1:25:02Um, do you just keep on going or did you
1:25:04stop and take a closer look that night
1:25:06or anything?
1:25:07No.
1:25:09Okay. And you went back on the Thursday
1:25:12night, right?
1:25:13Yep.
1:25:17So you go back on the Thursday night and
1:25:20you went you went into the house before
1:25:22she came home.
1:25:27Yeah. She was out.
1:25:30Okay.
1:25:37Um yeah, she was out. Got in through the
1:25:41kitchen window. It's unlocked.
1:25:43Everything else was locked.
1:25:49Okay. So, you're in there doing what?
1:25:54Looking around. Looking around to see
1:25:55who lived in the house.
1:25:59It was just her.
1:26:01Okay.
1:26:03And then what do you do?
1:26:12why I left the house
1:26:16and uh
1:26:25then she came home.
1:26:28I had been out of the house very long,
1:26:32so I watched for a little bit to see if
1:26:34she was alone.
1:26:38She was
1:26:49And I went in and she went back to
1:26:51sleep. Actually, went to sleep.
1:26:56Okay. So, you go in, she's sleeping, and
1:27:00what do you do?
1:27:05Well, I I snuck up to the side of her
1:27:08bed.
1:27:12expecting to uh
1:27:17try to knock her out.
1:27:21She woke up,
1:27:26but she did. As I said,
1:27:30I didn't hit her.
1:27:32What did you say?
1:27:36Lie down on your tummy.
1:27:39Okay.
1:27:40She did. I tied her up.
1:27:43What' you tie her up with?
1:27:45Some rope I brought.
1:27:50So, she's on her stomach. How are you
1:27:51tying her up?
1:27:53Just tying her hands behind her back.
1:27:55Okay.
1:27:57She got clothes on at that point.
1:27:59Mhm.
1:28:00What kind of clothes?
1:28:04Sweats.
1:28:05All right.
1:28:07tie her hands behind her back and then
1:28:08then what happens?
1:28:11I took her clothes off.
1:28:17Okay.
1:28:28And then what happened?
1:28:32I raped her.
1:28:37A rape can mean a lot of different
1:28:39things. What kind of sexual act took
1:28:41place?
1:28:49Vaginal and oral.
1:28:53Okay.
1:28:54Oral.
1:28:56Who was performing the oral sex?
1:29:02Um,
1:29:04no. Me on her and her on me.
1:29:07Okay.
1:29:10Any uh any condoms used or anything like
1:29:12that?
1:29:13No.
1:29:13No.
1:29:16So, and again, correct me if I'm wrong,
1:29:19vaginal intercourse,
1:29:22uh, her performing oral sex on you and
1:29:25you performing oral sex on her.
1:29:26Do you remember what order those things
1:29:28occurred in?
1:29:30Yeah,
1:29:32I uh
1:29:35started with the oral sex
1:29:41then I raped her
1:29:44and then later on I made her
1:29:47for moral sex on me.
1:29:50Okay.
1:29:53Anything any kind of conversation
1:29:54happening when this is going on?
1:30:00Yeah, a little bit.
1:30:01What was being said?
1:30:07I threatened her before she uh
1:30:11before I had her
1:30:15perform oral sex.
1:30:18What did you say?
1:30:20Well, I put a zip tie around her neck.
1:30:25I said uh
1:30:28that I would pull it if I didn't like
1:30:30what she would be doing.
1:30:32Okay.
1:30:36So, she did what you told her to do?
1:30:38Mhm.
1:30:39Any issues there? Any
1:30:42reason to pull it?
1:30:43No.
1:30:46So,
1:30:48do you remember if you ejaculated at
1:30:49that point or at any point?
1:30:51Um, not at that point, but later on.
1:30:55Okay. So, the oral sex finishes and then
1:30:59what happens next?
1:31:06Well, I continued to
1:31:12rape her and I had her put on some of
1:31:15her underwear.
1:31:18Took some pictures, lots of pictures.
1:31:23and then uh got her dressed,
1:31:28walked back to church.
1:31:31Okay. At what point did you decide that
1:31:33she was going to leave with you?
1:31:38[Music]
1:31:42I'm not sure that wasn't um
1:31:46necessarily always the plan,
1:31:51but at some point uh I was there for
1:32:01three
1:32:02three hours. Three and a bit.
1:32:11Okay.
1:32:15Um, do you remember the conversation
1:32:17about leaving? Was there any she say
1:32:20anything about that or
1:32:22what was she saying to you?
1:32:23She was um
1:32:31certainly cooperative.
1:32:34Okay.
1:32:43A cooperative can mean a number of
1:32:44different things. Was she excited about
1:32:46leaving with you? I don't want to be
1:32:48sarcastic, but um
1:32:49No, no, she just didn't put up too much
1:32:51of a fuss.
1:32:52Did she try and negotiate with you at
1:32:54all or
1:32:58What did she say?
1:32:59Well, I told her that I would uh
1:33:02let her go later on.
1:33:05Okay.
1:33:10So, when you take her out of your house,
1:33:11is she is she still bound or
1:33:14Yep.
1:33:15How how was that done?
1:33:17Just uh hands behind her back.
1:33:19Okay. What about her feet? Anything
1:33:22there?
1:33:23No, she was walking freely.
1:33:25Okay.
1:33:27Barefoot or? No.
1:33:28No, she had those brown suede shoes on
1:33:30that had been reported. Okay.
1:33:37So, where does she sit in your truck
1:33:39when you get to a truck?
1:33:41Front seat, passenger side.
1:33:44Okay.
1:33:46And where do you go?
1:33:48Straight to Tweet.
1:33:50Straight to your house in Tweet or
1:33:52straight to just the town?
1:33:53Straight to the house.
1:33:54No stops anywhere?
1:33:55No.
1:33:56Okay. What time do you remember what
1:33:58time you arrived there?
1:34:04I don't exactly, but I'd say between
1:34:064:30 and 5:30.
1:34:09Okay.
1:34:12All right.
1:34:15When you were uh when you were first
1:34:17there before she came home, do you
1:34:18remember
1:34:20did anybody come to the door at all when
1:34:22you were in the house?
1:34:23No.
1:34:27No. I think somebody had come home.
1:34:28Somebody had come to the house just
1:34:30before she did cuz I thought it was her
1:34:32but then they left. I was outside at the
1:34:35time.
1:34:36Did you see who that person was or what
1:34:38kind of vehicle they were in or
1:34:39anything?
1:34:41Saw the lights. They seemed it was her
1:34:42and then all of a sudden they left. So I
1:34:45don't know what happened.
1:34:46Okay.
1:34:47Um where were you when that first
1:34:50vehicle pulled up?
1:34:51In the back. Back here.
1:34:53Okay.
1:34:55So, you didn't have a view of the
1:34:57vehicle. You could just tell that there
1:34:58was a vehicle there. Is that fair?
1:34:59Okay.
1:35:02So, you get home about 4:35, you say?
1:35:07Okay. And then what happens?
1:35:14Uh well, she um she go to the bathroom
1:35:21and uh
1:35:24a quick shower, washer.
1:35:29Then we went into my bedroom
1:35:35and
1:35:37to sleep a little bit. She was tied up.
1:35:44How was she tied up at that point?
1:35:49I put um tape over her eyes from the
1:35:53beginning.
1:35:54So that's what she did.
1:35:56Okay.
1:36:00When they find her, is that tape going
1:36:01to be there or was it ever removed?
1:36:05No, I removed it.
1:36:07Okay. What kind of tape?
1:36:0913. All right.
1:36:14The duct tape that you used, where's
1:36:16where's that roll?
1:36:19Uh, it's all gone. But, um,
1:36:23I used it to I used the rest of it to
1:36:27bind her
1:36:29bind her body.
1:36:33So, by all gone, is it is it with the
1:36:36body now? Okay.
1:36:39So you said who went to sleep when you
1:36:41came home? You had a sh or she had a
1:36:43shower.
1:36:44Well, we both got in. I washed her off
1:36:46after she'd been to the bathroom.
1:36:49We both went to sleep,
1:36:51but she was tied up and I had tied the
1:36:53rope,
1:36:55you know, so I could fall asleep a
1:36:57little bit.
1:37:00She couldn't move without waking me up.
1:37:03Okay.
1:37:03I'm trying to picture how that would be.
1:37:04So the rope's tied to what on her? just
1:37:07tied her hands behind her back.
1:37:10Okay. And it
1:37:11and then the rope just wrapped around me
1:37:14a couple of times. So there was no
1:37:16slack.
1:37:17Okay. Do you remember how long you slept
1:37:19for?
1:37:21Not long. Maybe a couple hours.
1:37:24Do you know if she slept?
1:37:27I don't know.
1:37:29Okay. So you wake up and
1:37:31and it wasn't they were up and down up
1:37:33and down. So, it wasn't two hours
1:37:36straight. I was two hours in bed, but
1:37:40wasn't much sleep just lying there
1:37:42probably.
1:37:45So, you you get up from that and what
1:37:48happens next?
1:37:54Um,
1:37:57she had a seizure
1:38:00actually.
1:38:05She felt it coming on and um
1:38:10because she'd had some before
1:38:16lasted uh
1:38:21quite a while. got her dressed
1:38:26into the family room. And
1:38:34anyway, she uh
1:38:38she recovered. She got u
1:38:43obviously stress
1:38:48but uh
1:38:52yeah probably
1:38:55probably went on for about 15 minutes
1:38:58of it.
1:39:07So,
1:39:08how do you know she had them before?
1:39:10She told me.
1:39:11Did she tell you why she gets them?
1:39:14Well, she suggested it was stress.
1:39:18Yeah. So, she felt herself,
1:39:20start to tense up, and
1:39:23said she thought she was going to have a
1:39:25seizure.
1:39:32Yeah. So, she was she was
1:39:37convulsions. That's what she was having.
1:39:40Okay.
1:39:43So, she recovered from that.
1:39:45Yeah. She um I stayed with her and
1:39:48talked her through it and
1:39:52make sure she
1:39:55bite her tongue.
1:39:59Okay.
1:40:03And then what happened?
1:40:06Well, then we had a little lie down
1:40:07right there cuz she was obviously
1:40:10exhausted.
1:40:14Put a cover over her and
1:40:18went to sleep.
1:40:23Wait for an hour or so.
1:40:26And I had told her um earlier that
1:40:30before I let her go, I wanted to take
1:40:31some pictures of her in her underwear
1:40:37and u
1:40:43have sex with her.
1:40:53So after she'd had u a rest for an hour
1:40:57or so,
1:41:00I had her put on
1:41:07a number of different outfits she had.
1:41:10I'm sorry. Put on a number, you know,
1:41:13pairs,
1:41:16panties, bra that she had. Okay. Taken
1:41:19from the house.
1:41:24So, she put those on and I took
1:41:26pictures.
1:41:27Okay.
1:41:32Are you in any of these pictures?
1:41:35Yep.
1:41:40What kind of im what kind of images are
1:41:42you in?
1:41:47Um,
1:41:55while I'm with her, there's
1:41:58on the hard drives. You'll see there's
1:42:00video as well.
1:42:02So, there was video of the U.
1:42:08Yeah.
1:42:11Almost four hours, I guess.
1:42:16Out of what?
1:42:23Well, of uh
1:42:30initially at her place of uh me raping
1:42:33her
1:42:37and then uh
1:42:42yeah, so I was running the video
1:42:45and then taking still pictures. So, the
1:42:47video pretty much covers everything.
1:42:50Okay.
1:42:51Did you use video at other places?
1:42:55Uh,
1:42:57man as well.
1:43:00And is that video on the hard drives?
1:43:01Yeah.
1:43:03Same type of uh
1:43:06activity.
1:43:06Yeah.
1:43:08Well, I didn't have her put on any
1:43:10stuff.
1:43:12Okay.
1:43:15So
1:43:17Jessica poses for these pictures and
1:43:19there's videos and um and then what
1:43:22happens
1:43:28then? Um I got her dressed cuz she
1:43:32thought she was leaving
1:43:36a bite to eat
1:43:39fruit.
1:43:42And then as we were walking out, I
1:43:45struck her on the back of the head.
1:43:50Okay. When did you decide to do that?
1:44:10Well, I was uh pretty sure that I wasn't
1:44:13going to let her leave,
1:44:15but um
1:44:20yeah,
1:44:21the idea of striking her on the head was
1:44:26developed in the afternoon.
1:44:32And what was that strike supposed to
1:44:33accomplish in your mind? What was the
1:44:36intent of of doing that?
1:44:38Well, I thought I would be able to knock
1:44:40her out and then I was I was going to
1:44:43strangle her.
1:44:45Okay.
1:44:47So, when you actually do strike her,
1:44:49what what's the result?
1:44:53Her skull gave way a little bit.
1:44:57Felt like And there was a lot of blood.
1:44:59So I think that's what happened.
1:45:03She was immediately unconscious.
1:45:16And then I um strangled her.
1:45:22How'd you strangle her?
1:45:25Uh the same rope.
1:45:28Just put her on her neck.
1:45:30Okay.
1:45:31Well, she was uh unconscious.
1:45:39Now, what happened to the zip tie that
1:45:40was around her neck earlier?
1:45:47I took it off. Uh
1:45:54around then I guess.
1:46:00Did you take it off before you put the
1:46:01rope around her neck or or after or do
1:46:03you remember?
1:46:04After she was dead.
1:46:07Oh, okay. So, the zip tie was around her
1:46:09neck while you used the rope. Mhm. Okay.
1:46:12Did you leave the rope around her neck?
1:46:14No. Okay.
1:46:17And how did you know she was dead?
1:46:27She um
1:46:33well her body stopped moving.
1:46:39Okay.
1:46:42So what did you do after that?
1:46:46I uh I bound her up.
1:46:53There's field position
1:47:05and uh cleaned up the floor.
1:47:21No, you say you bound her up. Is that
1:47:23Are you referring to the duct tape that
1:47:24you talked about earlier?
1:47:25Yeah.
1:47:26Okay. So then what did you
1:47:33I um put her in the garage.
1:47:38It was very cold.
1:47:44And then I went into the base.
1:47:48Okay.
1:47:53Why'd you go to the base?
1:47:54Pardon me.
1:47:54Why'd you go to the base?
1:47:56Cuz I was flying early the next morning.
1:48:00Okay. So, what time did you leave to go
1:48:02to the base?
1:48:06I told you about between 9 and 10 or so
1:48:10on the Friday night.
1:48:11Yep.
1:48:11Okay.
1:48:13So you fly and
1:48:18then I drove home to Ottawa.
1:48:23So which night would you?
1:48:25Saturday night.
1:48:27So you land uh in
1:48:30what time are you landing?
1:48:32600 6:30.
1:48:33Okay.
1:48:33Saturday night.
1:48:34Did you go by the house in Tweet on your
1:48:36way to Ottawa or?
1:48:37No.
1:48:39Um, so you drove straight home to
1:48:42Ottawa.
1:48:44What time did you get there at? Do you
1:48:45remember?
1:48:46Sometime before midnight. I can't quite
1:48:48remember, but uh I think I went in the
1:48:50office first. Did some work.
1:48:56So I think I got home a lot just before
1:48:59midnight, something like that,
1:49:02I think. Not sure. I
1:49:06I slept for a little bit in at the Tim
1:49:08Hortons in Brockville,
1:49:10so it might be later. I honestly can't
1:49:12remember when I got out of bed.
1:49:14Okay.
1:49:15Yeah. Midnightish
1:49:17Saturday.
1:49:18Mhm.
1:49:32So you get home, you're in Ottawa, what
1:49:35do you do? Go to bed or stay up. Okay.
1:49:40So then what do you do the next day?
1:49:46Well, my wife and I did some stuff. I
1:49:48can't remember what uh
1:49:51what was going on that day.
1:49:56putting together the new house
1:50:01and I headed back to tweet that night.
1:50:04Mhm.
1:50:07Sorry. Sorry. Um,
1:50:12no, I didn't. I had uh I had Monday off.
1:50:17That's right. I had Monday off and then
1:50:19I was visiting one of the units in
1:50:21Ottawa on Tuesday. So I didn't head back
1:50:24to Tweet till Tuesday night.
1:50:27Okay.
1:50:33So you get back to Tweed and what
1:50:36happens next?
1:50:39I uh took Jessica's body to that spot.
1:50:44Okay.
1:50:45That happened on Tuesday night.
1:50:48Just this past Tuesday, obviously. Okay.
1:50:50Do you remember what time that was?
1:50:54It
1:50:54was pretty late. It was uh midnightish.
1:50:58I'd say between midnight and 1
1:51:01on
1:51:02Wednesday.
1:51:05Okay.
1:51:07Um,
1:51:09what made you decide to to measure that
1:51:11distance
1:51:13that 7 km?
1:51:17That's just the way I am. Numbers
1:51:20have to know the numbers.
1:51:22Okay.
1:51:24And um, how did you leave her?
1:51:30I just left her technically behind a um,
1:51:33a fairly large rock.
1:51:37Is that duct tape still on her?
1:51:41And
1:51:43what else is on her?
1:51:45Couple of towels wrapped around her head
1:51:48and uh the top and pants. She was
1:51:51wearing jeans.
1:51:53Okay.
1:51:56Did you ever go back there?
1:51:59No.
1:52:01Right.
1:52:06Um, what other type of cleaning and
1:52:09things like that did you do? Anything
1:52:10else to kind of cover your tracks you
1:52:12can think of?
1:52:15I vacuumed the house and I uh wiped the
1:52:18the floor. Wash the floor.
1:52:22Okay.
1:52:24What about your truck? Did you do
1:52:26anything with that?
1:52:28Just
1:52:30wash today because it was a mess and
1:52:34vacuum.
1:52:36Good.
1:52:45Um,
1:52:49so Marie Fron,
1:52:52when did uh when did it first occur to
1:52:54you to go to her house?
1:53:02Uh,
1:53:05probably in October,
1:53:09October, November. Not quite sure, but
1:53:11somewhere in that time frame.
1:53:18And do you real you remember why you
1:53:20that you thought to
1:53:23um to do that?
1:53:31Uh well,
1:53:34you know, she had said she lived alone
1:53:38when the one time I met her.
1:53:41Mhm.
1:53:55um
1:53:59just trying to understand why her
1:54:01versus, you know, the dozens of other
1:54:02women you probably come across on a
1:54:04daily basis.
1:54:11I know.
1:54:14Yeah.
1:54:22Yeah. I went out there uh when she
1:54:23wasn't home just to see where she lived.
1:54:25And
1:54:30when did you do that?
1:54:32A couple of nights before.
1:54:36How'd you know her address?
1:54:40I know the role for the basement.
1:54:44Okay.
1:54:46So, when you go out there a couple of
1:54:48nights before, do you remember what
1:54:49night that was when you were there first
1:54:51time?
1:54:56I don't uh but I it was within two or
1:54:59three nights I think.
1:55:01Okay.
1:55:03Well, no more than four or any something
1:55:05like that.
1:55:06And did you actually go into her house
1:55:08on that occasion or did you uh Okay. So,
1:55:11what happened that night? How did you
1:55:12how did you get into her house?
1:55:13This window on the side of the basement
1:55:16side window.
1:55:17Okay.
1:55:20Just a backst step a bit. How did you
1:55:22get to her house that that first night
1:55:24you went there?
1:55:26I drove.
1:55:27What did you drive?
1:55:31Uh, I think I drove my truckinder.
1:55:37Do you remember where you parked it?
1:55:41Yeah, I parked it. Um
1:55:45bit of a division in the
1:55:48residential areas there. I parked it on
1:55:49another side
1:55:526 700 meters away.
1:55:54Okay. So not on her street on a
1:55:56different street. Remember what street
1:55:57you parked on?
1:55:58No, but it's uh actually might be the
1:56:00same street, but there's an interruption
1:56:02in the street where there's a
1:56:03construction zone. So
1:56:06there's a pathway in between. So I think
1:56:09it's probably the same street.
1:56:11Okay.
1:56:12So, uh, you go to her house and when you
1:56:16went there that night, did you know that
1:56:17she was away?
1:56:22Uh, I'm not sure if I knew entirely, but
1:56:24I I I think I thought she was away.
1:56:28Okay.
1:56:30Is that based on her schedule or or how
1:56:33would how would you know?
1:56:35Uh, well, my Yeah, because I fly with a
1:56:37squadron, I have access to the schedule
1:56:39and
1:56:41Okay. a slightly different schedule. She
1:56:43has, but that's probably how I am.
1:56:46You don't know for sure.
1:56:51I think that's probably how I am.
1:56:52Okay. So, you go to our house.
1:56:55Mhm.
1:56:56And what do you do that night? The first
1:56:59night
1:57:02looked around and uh
1:57:07I'm sure that she was living there
1:57:10alone.
1:57:15And
1:57:15I'm sorry. Did you say I can't remember
1:57:17if you said how did you get in?
1:57:19Same same way about side basement
1:57:23window.
1:57:23Side basement window. Okay. Do you
1:57:25remember what kind of window it is? Like
1:57:26what made it uh
1:57:28Well, I just noticed it was the
1:57:31flashlight. I can see that it was not
1:57:32locked. It had been opened slightly.
1:57:35So, I removed the screen, slid it open,
1:57:38went in. Okay.
1:57:41So, you go in and uh you're in her house
1:57:44figuring out she lives alone and uh do
1:57:47you do anything that night?
1:57:52Yeah, I was playing with her uh
1:57:57underwear.
1:58:02You mean playing with her underwear?
1:58:08wearing it.
1:58:11Okay.
1:58:12Doing anything else?
1:58:19No, I didn't touch her stuff.
1:58:27What do you mean you didn't touch her
1:58:28stuff? I mean, you touched her
1:58:29underwear, but
1:58:30Yeah. Yeah.
1:58:31Nothing else.
1:58:33Did you take any of the underwear with
1:58:35you that night?
1:58:37Yeah. a few pieces.
1:58:40Where did you find the underwear when
1:58:42you went in?
1:58:45Drawer.
1:58:48Was it clean? Was it used?
1:58:51Clean.
1:58:54Um,
1:58:56anything else you can remember doing
1:58:58that evening that you
1:59:00No.
1:59:02All right.
1:59:05So, um, after that first visit, did you
1:59:10return again before meeting up with her?
1:59:13No.
1:59:13Okay.
1:59:17So, which day did you go to her house
1:59:20when she was there?
1:59:26Well, the night before I went to Ottawa.
1:59:28So, I think that was Monday night.
1:59:33All
1:59:34right.
1:59:35Um, so let's walk through that. What
1:59:37time do you think you got there?
1:59:41About 11 or so, probably. 10:31.
1:59:46Okay.
1:59:51Yeah. So, she was on the phone in her
1:59:53room.
1:59:56I could hear that uh from the backyard.
2:00:01I got in through the uh side window,
2:00:05the same basement window.
2:00:07Mhm.
2:00:09How could you hear from the backyard?
2:00:10What was uh
2:00:12just hear her on the phone
2:00:15from beside beside the house? Could hear
2:00:19through the walls if she was on the
2:00:20phone. Okay.
2:00:22Any idea who she was talking to or what
2:00:23she was talking about? No. Didn't
2:00:25hear that one.
2:00:27Okay. So, you go in through the basement
2:00:29window.
2:00:31And what are you wearing when this is
2:00:32happening?
2:00:35Um,
2:00:42sweatshirts,
2:00:46I guess,
2:00:47and the two pieces on my head. Okay.
2:00:53And
2:00:53where are those two pieces now?
2:00:56Pieces that you wore on the head.
2:01:01Uh, they're probably in my bag in um my
2:01:04luggage bag in Edison in the bedroom.
2:01:09What's your luggage bag look like?
2:01:12It's a
2:01:14blue
2:01:15duffel bag type thing. It's right beside
2:01:18the bed.
2:01:20Is it the only blue duffel bag in your
2:01:21bedroom?
2:01:22Mhm.
2:01:23Um, and these pieces, what do they look
2:01:25like again?
2:01:27It's a blue headband.
2:01:30Okay.
2:01:31Standard blue, you know, winter headband
2:01:35and black
2:01:38skull cap type thing.
2:01:41Any insignas or anything on them?
2:01:44Yeah, there are, but I don't know what
2:01:45they are.
2:01:46The blue headband has something
2:01:48stitched,
2:01:52a name of some sort stitched on it.
2:01:55And the uh skull cap has some sort of
2:01:58emblem on white emblem on the black.
2:02:00I don't know what it is.
2:02:02Are they like sports emblems or company
2:02:04emblems or
2:02:06It's the manufacturers's.
2:02:10Okay.
2:02:11Anything else in that blue uh duffel
2:02:13bag?
2:02:16I think so.
2:02:18Is it full of of things other than
2:02:20just just my clothes?
2:02:22Okay.
2:02:24Um,
2:02:27so you go in, uh, do you remember what
2:02:29you had on your feet
2:02:34in the house there
2:02:35when you went to Marie Franc's house?
2:02:40Probably running shoes.
2:02:42There wasn't snow on the ground.
2:02:46So, you go in and you're in the
2:02:48basement.
2:02:50And uh whereabouts in the basement are
2:02:56um by the furnace.
2:02:59Okay. And what are you doing? Like what
2:03:01what uh what's your what's your sort of
2:03:03plan at that point?
2:03:04I was waiting for her to go to bed.
2:03:07Okay. And how long did that take?
2:03:10Well, she did. Okay. And then she came
2:03:13down looking for the cat.
2:03:16All right.
2:03:19And uh what happens next?
2:03:23As I described, I subdued her, gave her
2:03:26the flashlight,
2:03:32essentially,
2:03:37wrestled her to the ground, and tied her
2:03:38up.
2:03:44Okay. And
2:03:44what did you use to tie rope?
2:03:47Same rope. Green rope.
2:03:50It's in tweed.
2:03:52Is it just green or like uh How long is
2:03:55this piece of rope?
2:03:58It's probably um 20 ft. It's
2:04:04It's a boat boat rope. It's got some red
2:04:06specks in it, I think.
2:04:09Okay.
2:04:10Is there lots of ropes in tweet or is
2:04:12this probably the only rope?
2:04:15[Music]
2:04:16No, this uh there are two two lengths.
2:04:22Two lengths of the same green rope.
2:04:25And were they both used?
2:04:29Uh well, I I only ever had one with me,
2:04:31so I don't know if I used the same piece
2:04:33both times or not, but only two lengths
2:04:37of rope.
2:04:38Okay. So you tie her tie her up. How did
2:04:40you tie her up when you obviously do
2:04:43that?
2:04:44Okay. And what is she wearing at that
2:04:47point?
2:04:48She wasn't wearing anything to start
2:04:49with.
2:04:51So when she came down to the basement,
2:04:53she had no clothes on.
2:04:54She had some sort of a shawl over her
2:04:56shoulder.
2:04:58Okay.
2:04:59She immediately dropped when she saw
2:05:00you.
2:05:02Did she say anything when she saw you?
2:05:06She did. She
2:05:09called out, "You bastard."
2:05:14Okay.
2:05:15And then what happened?
2:05:19Then I subdued her as I just read
2:05:22by hitting her with that red flashlight.
2:05:25Okay.
2:05:26Although they were more glancing
2:05:30glancing blows. Cut her skin, but
2:05:33weren't doing much else.
2:05:35Okay. She fell over and then I said,
2:05:37"She
2:05:39tripped."
2:05:42How did you tie her at that point? Like
2:05:45I know you used the rope, but what were
2:05:46what did you tie her up up like?
2:05:49Just told her to put her I pulled her
2:05:51hands behind her back and just tied her
2:05:54wrists together.
2:05:55Okay.
2:05:57And then then what happened after that?
2:06:00Then I took her upstairs.
2:06:07Did she go upstairs under her own power
2:06:09or did you carry her?
2:06:10No, she passed out um on the stairs
2:06:16and then I carried her up.
2:06:21Why do you think she passed out?
2:06:24I specked uh
2:06:27from the heads to her head.
2:06:32So you carried up to where? She were
2:06:35better. Put her on the bed.
2:06:37Okay.
2:06:39And then what happened?
2:06:49Uh
2:06:52well, as I described, I think I
2:06:55she on the bed. I raped her
2:06:59over a period of time.
2:07:03And again, just to be specific, what
2:07:05what sex acts took place?
2:07:08Just vaginal.
2:07:11Your penis and her vagina?
2:07:13Yeah.
2:07:14Any condom use?
2:07:15No.
2:07:16Did you ejaculate?
2:07:17No.
2:07:20Did you ejaculate at any point with her?
2:07:22No.
2:07:23Okay.
2:07:26Um,
2:07:29just before I forget, you I think I
2:07:31asked you,
2:07:33don't mean to bounce around on you here,
2:07:34Russ, but with Jessica, I asked you
2:07:37about ejaculation. You said you didn't
2:07:39at that point. When did you ejaculate
2:07:41with Jessica?
2:07:42Um,
2:07:45the second time or third time that I had
2:07:48her
2:07:50foral sex.
2:07:53And was that at her residence or yours?
2:07:56Hers.
2:07:57Okay.
2:07:58Any other times that you ejaculated with
2:08:00her?
2:08:02Okay.
2:08:04Um,
2:08:06when you ejaculated with Jessica, did
2:08:09you use anything to clean up or?
2:08:12No.
2:08:16What happened to the ejaculate?
2:08:20She swallowed it. Okay.
2:08:24Um, so getting back to Marie Fron, it's
2:08:27just straight vaginal sex, no condom, no
2:08:30ejaculation. Is that right?
2:08:32Yeah.
2:08:33Okay. Um,
2:08:36how long does that go for?
2:08:39Like how long were you engaged in that
2:08:41activity?
2:08:46Uh, well,
2:08:51hour and a half. two hours is
2:08:54okay.
2:08:55And then what happens next?
2:09:01Well, as I described, I suffocated her
2:09:03using um duct tape.
2:09:10Why did you decide to to do that?
2:09:21Well, again, because of the pictures,
2:09:25as I described to you, it would have uh
2:09:29it was going to be a pretty straight
2:09:30line back to tweak.
2:09:35Okay. But why why why did you decide to
2:09:38use that method versus something else?
2:09:52I had uh
2:09:56thought about strangling her earlier
2:10:04that's on the video.
2:10:07What is
2:10:09my uh
2:10:12well,
2:10:15it was a short short-lived attempt cuz
2:10:18she struggled quite a bit.
2:10:22Then I
2:10:26decided that I needed to suffocate her.
2:10:32So there was a shortlived attempt at
2:10:33strangler
2:10:35and what's on the video the suffocation
2:10:37or the strangling?
2:10:39Well, just me putting my hand on her
2:10:41throat
2:10:48and then her responding
2:10:52surprise very aggressively.
2:10:56Okay.
2:10:58any videos of the uh suffocation part or
2:11:01pictures of that?
2:11:06Um, now you you mentioned that you
2:11:08brought the rope with you. Where did the
2:11:09duct tape come from?
2:11:10I brought it.
2:11:12Okay.
2:11:13And what did you do with it afterwards?
2:11:18I think it uh
2:11:22did state and tweet.
2:11:24What color duct tape are we talking
2:11:26about? I know it comes in a variety of
2:11:28colors, but
2:11:28gray.
2:11:29Gray.
2:11:31Um,
2:11:34so before
2:11:36uh the suffocation, um, obviously, how
2:11:39long do you think you were with her
2:11:42from the point Well, how long do you
2:11:44think you were in that house from the
2:11:46point you went in that window to the
2:11:47point you left?
2:11:52Probably um,
2:11:544 hours.
2:11:56Okay.
2:11:58So, correct me if I'm wrong. Did you say
2:12:00you were got there at 11:00 or around
2:12:0411:00?
2:12:05I think that's right.
2:12:06Okay.
2:12:08So, you left around 3:00 in the morning.
2:12:14Well, I was in the basement for quite a
2:12:16while before she came down. I She wasn't
2:12:20going to bed. So, I was probably in the
2:12:23basement for 30, 40 minutes. Okay.
2:12:27So,
2:12:29by the time
2:12:31she saw me, it was probably closer to
2:12:33midnight.
2:12:36All right.
2:12:38Um,
2:12:39but I didn't have a watch on, so I'm not
2:12:41sure.
2:12:45Any gloves?
2:12:55I don't think so.
2:12:57Did you wear gloves with Jessica?
2:13:01Uh, only to get in the house.
2:13:04It's a very cold night.
2:13:08And what about the two women in uh in
2:13:10Tweed?
2:13:11No.
2:13:14So while you're with Marie Frrawns,
2:13:18what kind of conversations are taking
2:13:20place? Anything in she said to you stick
2:13:22out in your mind?
2:13:23No. Then I taped her mouth.
2:13:26There's no conversation.
2:13:28Okay. When did you tape her mouth?
2:13:33Soon as I got her up to the bedroom.
2:13:35Why did you decide to do that?
2:13:38because she was uh
2:13:44you know quite aggressive.
2:13:48In what way?
2:13:49I was confident she was uh would have
2:13:52screamed given the chance.
2:13:58What way?
2:13:59If she did initially,
2:14:00did she? Okay.
2:14:01In the basement.
2:14:04So, in what way was she aggressive?
2:14:05Well, just in
2:14:08When she discovered me, she was very
2:14:11vocal,
2:14:12screamed quite a bit
2:14:16until I subdued her, so I expected she
2:14:18would scream again given the chance.
2:14:22Okay.
2:14:25Do you remember how you left her
2:14:26residence?
2:14:31Back door,
2:14:33patio door.
2:14:35Okay.
2:14:37Did you take anything with her that
2:14:39night?
2:14:41Some of her underwear.
2:14:44Anything else?
2:14:46No.
2:14:48All right.
2:14:49Um, did you do anything else to try and
2:14:53uh cover your tracks with me France?
2:15:02Um,
2:15:06well, I had turned off my Blackberry
2:15:08before I left Trenton.
2:15:13Other than that, no.
2:15:18Do you remember trying to destroy any
2:15:19kind of evidence there or anything you
2:15:21thought may have uh produced evidence or
2:15:24anything? Oh,
2:15:26I took her sheets off the bed and ran
2:15:27them through the laundry.
2:15:30Okay.
2:15:33Like the laundry where at
2:15:35in her house.
2:15:36Okay. Did you run them completely
2:15:38through? Did you wait for it to finish
2:15:39or?
2:15:39No, I just put them in and put a whole
2:15:42bunch of bleach in and let it go.
2:15:45Okay.
2:15:47So, the night you went to her house and
2:15:49got there at 11:00, you came from where?
2:15:54Like you said, you left Trenton, you
2:15:55turned off your Blackberry.
2:16:01Did you talking about the base or you
2:16:02talking about uh where did you leave to
2:16:04go to her house?
2:16:06Well, no. I just turned off my
2:16:07Blackberry before I left the Trenton
2:16:09area.
2:16:11Um I would have left from the base after
2:16:14work.
2:16:16All right. When did you turn when did
2:16:18you uh what time do you think you turned
2:16:20your Blackberry off?
2:16:25Well, it's only a half hour drive to
2:16:27Brighton, so
2:16:30yeah,
2:16:32probably in the 9 9:30 range. Okay.
2:16:36Do you remember what uh
2:16:39what time you would have turned it back
2:16:40on?
2:16:42I was back on the 401 heading to Ottawa
2:16:44the next morning.
2:16:46What time was that?
2:16:47So,
2:16:496 plus or - 30 minutes.
2:16:52Okay. So, you leave her house 3ish?
2:16:56No, I think it was later than that. So,
2:16:58the 4 hours obviously was
2:17:02I think uh
2:17:05Yeah, I think I went in about 11:00.
2:17:07Was in the basement for quite a while.
2:17:10Probably left her house closer to 4 4:30
2:17:13somewhere in there.
2:17:17Okay. And where do you go?
2:17:22Uh, I drove to Ottawa.
2:17:24Straight to Ottawa.
2:17:26Did you go by your house and tweet or
2:17:28anything or did you just go straight?
2:17:29No.
2:17:30What route you took?
2:17:34Uh, yeah. 41. But from her place, uh,
2:17:41I think I went straight north on, uh,
2:17:44whatever the road is that goes straight
2:17:45through Brighton up to the 41. at the
2:17:47401 and headed east.
2:17:50Okay.
2:17:52And so you're going to what's the
2:17:55meeting you're having that day in
2:17:57Ottawa? Remind me.
2:17:58Meeting on the C17 acquisition project.
2:18:02Okay. And who ran that meeting?
2:18:04The project manager, Miss uh Sue Hail.
2:18:09Okay.
2:18:11Is that the only meeting around that
2:18:12time period you would have went to on
2:18:14that issue with Sue Hail?
2:18:16There wasn't like a weekly meeting or
2:18:18anything like that.
2:18:19No, this is sort of a quarterly.
2:18:22All right. Um,
2:18:26so the night you went the night this
2:18:29happened, um, where did you park? Uh,
2:18:32that night
2:18:35as I said, across the gravel little
2:18:38roadway, probably it's probably the same
2:18:39road.
2:18:40Okay. Similar location to the first
2:18:42night.
2:18:44Yeah. Okay.
2:18:46All right. Same same vehicle.
2:18:52Yeah. Truck.
2:18:54Okay.
2:18:56All right. Um
2:19:00Okay. Let's talk about uh the Well,
2:19:03seeing as we're going backwards in time
2:19:05here, why don't we talk about the second
2:19:06incident in Tweed um
2:19:12with Lori Masakotti.
2:19:15one that's a a 76 cozy code.
2:19:24How did you uh decide on her?
2:19:29I knew she lived alone.
2:19:32That's it.
2:19:34How did you know that?
2:19:38cuz she was three doors down and uh
2:19:43didn't know her but I knew she was
2:19:46pretty lone. She had boyfriend and
2:19:49hadn't seemed to be hadn't been around,
2:19:59you know,
2:20:01looked in the window and she was alone.
2:20:05So she she had a boyfriend but he wasn't
2:20:08too frequent. Okay.
2:20:09Well, he was she told me that they were
2:20:11fighting so that's why he had been
2:20:14Okay.
2:20:16So um
2:20:22did you look in her house before the
2:20:24night that this this incident happened
2:20:26or when did you do that? I had been in
2:20:30within a week,
2:20:33probably a couple of nights earlier.
2:20:36What did you do that night?
2:20:41I um
2:20:44I looked around to see if there any
2:20:47permanent signs of her boyfriend. I
2:20:49guess
2:20:53took
2:20:56one or two pieces of underwear.
2:21:03So,
2:21:06okay.
2:21:08So, the night you go there, um when the
2:21:12incident happens, uh remember what time
2:21:13that was?
2:21:16It was pretty late. Um, I probably got
2:21:19into the house around midnight. She was
2:21:21asleep on the couch. Well, I didn't know
2:21:23that, but I knew she was in there.
2:21:27And how did you get in? Sorry.
2:21:29Uh, window in the back of the house.
2:21:33There's a little
2:21:35sun room.
2:21:37Was it just something you had to slide
2:21:39or or how did you remove the screen and
2:21:42uh slide it up?
2:21:44Okay.
2:21:48So, I got into the house and u
2:21:52she was asleep in front of the TV.
2:22:00Wearing anything on your face that
2:22:02night?
2:22:02Yep. Same things.
2:22:04Okay. The headband and the uh the cap.
2:22:07Okay.
2:22:09Um
2:22:11what kind of clothes did you have on?
2:22:15to start switching her pants.
2:22:20Right.
2:22:21So, she's asleep on the couch. You're in
2:22:23there. And then what happens?
2:22:28We have been through this.
2:22:30I know.
2:22:30I struck her with the flashlight
2:22:33thinking it would knock her out. It
2:22:34didn't. We struggled. I subdued her.
2:22:38Took some pictures. Left. It's probably
2:22:41in the house.
2:22:44Two and a half hours.
2:22:49That's a pretty short description for
2:22:50two and a half hours.
2:22:55Well,
2:22:57we talked. I
2:23:04told her I wasn't going to hurt her.
2:23:12I um I told her that there were other
2:23:16guys in the house robbing her.
2:23:21My job was just to control her.
2:23:32What did she say to that?
2:23:36She was scared.
2:23:41worried she was going to be seriously
2:23:43hurt.
2:23:47Did she say that or did you just assume
2:23:49that?
2:23:49No, no, she said that she was
2:23:56she was worried she was going to be
2:23:58killed. I said, "I'm not going to kill
2:23:59you."
2:24:03What did you do with uh You said you
2:24:06took pictures of her. Um, clothed,
2:24:08unclothed?
2:24:10Uh, both.
2:24:12Clothed initially and then unclothed.
2:24:19Are you in any of those pictures?
2:24:23I don't think so.
2:24:24You just took them to her?
2:24:27What kind of camera are you using, by
2:24:29the way? Uh,
2:24:32it's a digital uh sun.
2:24:35You just have the one camera.
2:24:37Yeah.
2:24:39And the video camera
2:24:41also. They're two separate.
2:24:43Yeah.
2:24:44Some cameras take take video, right? Um
2:24:47and where is the camera and the and the
2:24:49video camera
2:24:54tweed?
2:24:58Is it the only camera and video camera
2:24:59in that house?
2:25:01Yep. Okay.
2:25:04All right.
2:25:05Um,
2:25:08do you take pictures of her? And how do
2:25:10you end up leaving?
2:25:12Like you uh
2:25:14I just told her to uh
2:25:20I don't know, counter wait for u
2:25:23number of minutes before uh
2:25:26before she called the police.
2:25:29Okay.
2:25:31And did you leave immediately or did you
2:25:32stay there for a while? see what she was
2:25:34going to do or
2:25:35I left.
2:25:37Um, and where did you go?
2:25:40Home.
2:25:41Straight home.
2:25:43Did you
2:25:45Did you wait to see if the police showed
2:25:47up or anything or
2:25:49No.
2:25:51It's So, what did you do when you got
2:25:53home? Couple feet.
2:25:57I went to sleep.
2:25:59Okay.
2:26:00What did you do the next day?
2:26:04You want it to work? Normal time.
2:26:07Okay. Couple hours later.
2:26:14All right. Um,
2:26:19do you remember how uh her clothing was
2:26:21removed?
2:26:27Uh, well, cuz her hands were tied behind
2:26:29her back. I think I cut off her top. and
2:26:32then pulled off her bottom. What did you
2:26:35use to cut her top?
2:26:37Um,
2:26:43I can't remember if it was a knife or
2:26:46like a folding X-Acto knife or
2:26:48Leatherman or one of the two.
2:26:52Are these items that are in your house
2:26:53and tweet?
2:26:55Yep.
2:26:56Okay. Was there ever any other time you
2:26:59used a a knife to cut off clothing or
2:27:02anything else? Do you remember?
2:27:05I cut off Jessica's uh top of the knife
2:27:09so her hands were tied behind her back.
2:27:13That's all.
2:27:14Okay. Where's that knife? Which knife
2:27:16did you use?
2:27:17That was a Leatherman.
2:27:18That was leather.
2:27:19Tweed.
2:27:21Is it the only Leatherman in in Tweet?
2:27:22Mhm. Okay.
2:27:24Um,
2:27:27so on the 16th of September,
2:27:30uh, when you went in that night, was
2:27:32that the first time you've been in her
2:27:34house?
2:27:34Yep.
2:27:36Okay. And why her?
2:27:39Just cuz I had seen her and
2:27:42she was cute.
2:27:45That's it.
2:27:47Okay.
2:27:48So there was no
2:27:50um you didn't go into her house before
2:27:52that that night?
2:27:54No.
2:27:56All right.
2:27:57Um
2:27:59so you go in and how'd you get into her
2:28:01house?
2:28:04Side window.
2:28:06The uh
2:28:08was not locked.
2:28:11Cut the screen. Slid the window. Curled
2:28:13in.
2:28:15Okay.
2:28:17And uh what you're wearing?
2:28:21Same. Switch your dark pants.
2:28:24And the same hat and
2:28:28Okay.
2:28:30Uh
2:28:32and where do you find uh in bed sleep?
2:28:37Okay. And what do you do?
2:28:41stood over her for a while and I uh hit
2:28:44her on the left side of her head just
2:28:46with my hand.
2:28:50Just woke her up. you struggled,
2:28:58you know, just lay on her
2:29:06and
2:29:07very much like I described a little bit
2:29:09ago,
2:29:12took off her
2:29:14pulled her top down
2:29:16and took off her pants,
2:29:19took some pictures, left
2:29:22Do you remember her saying anything to
2:29:23you?
2:29:25Yes.
2:29:26What did she say to you?
2:29:29All kinds of things. Um,
2:29:33you know, she had a
2:29:36a young baby just uh next door, the
2:29:40other room, eight months or so.
2:29:44Obviously concerned about the baby,
2:29:48concerned for herself. I assure her I
2:29:50was not going to hurt her
2:29:54physically enough.
2:30:06Um, any underwear taken from or Lori?
2:30:11Yep, both.
2:30:12And where would they be located?
2:30:15In tweed.
2:30:22And why are they in Tweed as opposed to
2:30:24uh um Marie Fron's and Jessica's
2:30:28underwear?
2:30:38[Music]
2:30:39Do you remember how much of their
2:30:40underwear you took?
2:30:44Um
2:30:51Not very much from Lori.
2:30:53Did they know that you took their
2:30:55underwear? I don't know.
2:30:58You didn't discuss it with them or
2:30:59anything?
2:31:02Um,
2:31:05so where in tweed would their underwear
2:31:07be?
2:31:16Um
2:31:24in the um
2:31:26a laundry room area.
2:31:30Okay.
2:31:30Just between the house and the garage,
2:31:33right?
2:31:41So, where in that laundry area would
2:31:43they be kept?
2:31:45There's a cupboard uh up top.
2:31:48They're in a duffel bag.
2:31:50What's the duffel bag look like?
2:31:52It's a green army duffel bag.
2:31:55Are they all in the same duffel bag?
2:31:58Is there anything else in that duffel
2:31:59bag?
2:32:03Just anywhere.
2:32:05Okay.
2:32:08Um,
2:32:12[Music]
2:32:15when these when these pictures uh are
2:32:18looked at, uh, you talked about being in
2:32:21Marie Fron's underwear on the first
2:32:23night you went in. Did you take
2:32:24photographs of that?
2:32:25Yep.
2:32:26What about anybody else's underwear?
2:32:29Yep.
2:32:31Photos.
2:32:32Of you in their underwear?
2:32:34And where were those photos taken?
2:32:41Um,
2:32:45well, sometimes in
2:32:54in Maddie Fance's case in her house.
2:32:59The others in my house
2:33:03in tweet.
2:33:04Mhm.
2:33:06So is this a matter you would take the
2:33:07underwear, go back and and then at some
2:33:10point put the underwear on and take
2:33:11pictures.
2:33:13What about Jessica's underwear?
2:33:20Uh she's
2:33:22only her, right?
2:33:25So you don't have pictures of you and
2:33:26her?
2:33:27No. Okay.
2:33:29All right. Um,
2:33:34okay.
2:33:37Well, I guess, uh, I just have a a
2:33:40couple of questions for you. I mean, I'm
2:33:42sure there's going to be more questions,
2:33:43but I guess what's on my mind right now,
2:33:46Russ, is um, what made you decide to to
2:33:49tell me this tonight?
2:33:58mostly um to make my wife's life easier.
2:34:05Okay.
2:34:08Is what you told me tonight the truth?
2:34:11Yeah.
2:34:18How do you feel about what you've done?
2:34:20I got
2:34:36disappointed.
2:34:41Let me ask you this. If um
2:34:45if this didn't come to the point it's at
2:34:47right now,
2:34:49if for whatever reason you didn't end up
2:34:50on our on our radar, so to speak, uh do
2:34:54you think it would have happened again?
2:35:04I was hoping not, but I can't answer the
2:35:06question.
2:35:08Okay.
2:35:11Um,
2:35:13not too much here, Russ. Just a few
2:35:14details that I wanted to cover off
2:35:18and specifically deal with Marie Fron.
2:35:21Um,
2:35:24in the basement of her house, uh,
2:35:26there's a hole in the uh, drywall.
2:35:30Do you recall how that happened?
2:35:33Whereabouts?
2:35:35Uh, I don't know specifically, but it's
2:35:37downstairs.
2:35:39I don't remember that. Okay.
2:35:42Do you remember doing anything with her
2:35:43in the basement uh where you may have
2:35:45used some clothing or something to uh to
2:35:48secure her?
2:35:50Yeah, I tied her up against one of the
2:35:52uh poles in the basement initially.
2:35:58I went outside and put the screen back
2:36:00on and secured the window.
2:36:04Okay.
2:36:05While she was tied to the pole?
2:36:06Yep.
2:36:07And what was your thinking behind doing
2:36:08that at that point?
2:36:11just to cover up how I'd come in.
2:36:15Okay.
2:36:17Um, now by the time she's tied to that
2:36:19pole, is that in the very initial few
2:36:21minutes kind of thing of the
2:36:22confrontation or
2:36:23That was shortly after I had subdued her
2:36:26and tied her up. Yes.
2:36:27Okay. Does she have the duct tape on her
2:36:29mouth yet?
2:36:35I think probably the pictures will show
2:36:38it.
2:36:40All right. Now, in the upstairs bathroom
2:36:43by her bedroom, there's uh looks like
2:36:47something's occurred in there. Do you
2:36:48remember that?
2:36:50Yep.
2:36:50What happened there?
2:36:52She had passed out on the bed and I had
2:36:54gone to look out the front window, see
2:36:57if anybody was coming.
2:37:00and uh
2:37:02she got up and closed the bedroom door
2:37:04and raced into the bathroom trying to uh
2:37:08get somebody's attention,
2:37:11but her mouth was taped and her hands
2:37:12were tied. Okay.
2:37:15What did you do as a result of that?
2:37:17Well, I just got in and
2:37:21subdued her again and got got her back
2:37:24into the bitter.
2:37:26Didn't do anything. just regain control
2:37:29of her.
2:37:30Okay. If I remember correctly, there's a
2:37:32bit there's a bit of blood in there. Do
2:37:33you know where that blood would have how
2:37:35that that would have occurred?
2:37:36All the blood was from
2:37:39the initial hits as I was trying to
2:37:41subdue her.
2:37:42Okay.
2:37:42Her skin breaking with the uh
2:37:46blows to her head. Okay.
2:37:48Do you recall blood being in the
2:37:49bathroom?
2:37:50No, actually I didn't have a light on
2:37:52there, but
2:37:53it didn't surprise me.
2:37:55Okay.
2:37:57Um, there's a pair of underwear and some
2:38:00socks on the floor of that bathroom that
2:38:02belong to her. Do you remember how they
2:38:05got there? Do you remember seeing that?
2:38:06See that?
2:38:08Okay.
2:38:09What do you recall doing to her breasts?
2:38:12It's pretty clear that there was some
2:38:14something happened to her breasts. Do
2:38:16you remember what that might have been?
2:38:19No, I I certainly touched her breasts. I
2:38:21didn't do anything to hurt them.
2:38:24I remember that.
2:38:25No. Okay.
2:38:27All right. Um,
2:38:31well, Russo,
2:38:32when I suffocated her, she was on her
2:38:36her her front, so may have been
2:38:40something there, but
2:38:42what do you mean?
2:38:44Well, she was lying on the floor in the
2:38:46bedroom as I suffocated her and
2:38:47obviously struggled. May have been in
2:38:49there that something happened, but I
2:38:51didn't do anything specific to her
2:38:53breasts.
2:38:54Okay. So when you suffocator, that's
2:38:57when you have the duct tape over her
2:38:58mouth and nose and that's on the floor.
2:39:00Yeah.
2:39:01And um then what happens after that?
2:39:06Well, she died and I um
2:39:10and took the duct tape off her head and
2:39:13put her on the bed and covered her up
2:39:15with the duvet.
2:39:18Okay. And what was your thinking behind
2:39:20doing that?
2:39:32Um,
2:39:34as you might expect here, Russ, uh,
2:39:37certainly, uh, even now, one of the
2:39:39Ottawa investigators mentioned to me
2:39:41that, um, there's a number of incidents
2:39:43that, uh, that have gone unsolved over
2:39:45the years.
2:39:49Can I uh, I was going to get into that.
2:39:51Can I go to the washroom quickly? Yeah,
2:39:53I can get somebody to take you to the
2:39:54washroom. Okay.
2:40:04[Music]

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