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Brené Brown: The Algorithms Have Forced Us Into A Hidden Epidemic, This Is The Only Way Out! — Transcript

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0:00You are the single most requested guest.
0:03And let me tell you, this has not been
0:05easy cuz we went to some hard places,
0:07but I don't think we'll ever talk about
0:09anything more important than this cuz
0:11it's not fear that gets in the way of us
0:13being brave with our lives and our work.
0:15[music] It's the armor that we reach for
0:17to self-protect when we're afraid and
0:19how [music] that armor moves us away
0:21from love, connection, and our values.
0:24And [music] the hardest work is being
0:26aware of what is my armor when I'm
0:28afraid. Is that automatic? Oh, no, it's
0:31a training. So, let's start with that,
0:32then. Brené Brown is an icon whose
0:34world-leading research in shame,
0:36vulnerability, and connection
0:38>> has inspired [music] companies like
0:39Pixar, Google, and the US Special Forces
0:41>> to build stronger leaders and help the
0:43everyday person unlock their full
0:45potential.
0:46Ready? Is vulnerability important?
0:49>> It is if we want to be brave with our
0:50lives, but we were raised to believe
0:52that vulnerability is weakness.
0:53>> [music]
0:53>> Like in my family, we were allowed
0:55anger, but sad was not an option. You
0:57needed to be tough. So, when I get
0:59scared, when I [music] feel anxious,
1:01disappointed, I'm just angry. And so,
1:03when you're raised without
1:04vulnerability, it'll put you in
1:05jeopardy. Like you want to know what
1:07vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so
1:10vulnerable [music] that people choose to
1:12live disappointed rather than to get
1:14excited about something and risk getting
1:16sucker punched by disappointment. Like
1:18there is no courage without
1:19vulnerability because courage is the
1:21willingness to show up and be all in
1:23when you cannot predict the outcome.
1:25Wow, I've never thought about that
1:26before. But you can develop skills. Like
1:29it's skills, that's courage?
1:30>> Yes. We've taken 165,000
1:33people through this work. That included
1:35how to build trust.
1:36>> And I've heard about your marble jar
1:38theory. Could you explain to me what
1:40your marble jar You look at how excited
1:41you are. I know.
1:43So, this is how we teach trust to the
1:45most senior leaders in Fortune [music]
1:47100 companies. It's awesome.
1:50I see messages all the time in the
1:52comment section that some of you didn't
1:54realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you
1:55could do me a favor and double-check if
1:57you're a subscriber to this channel,
1:58that would be tremendously appreciated.
2:00It is the simple, it's the free thing
2:02that anybody that watches this show
2:03frequently can do to help us here to
2:05keep everything going in this show in
2:06the trajectory it's on. So, please do
2:08double-check if you subscribed and uh
2:10thank you so much because in a strange
2:12way you are you're part of our history
2:14and you're on this journey with us and I
2:15appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank
2:17you.
2:18>> [music]
2:20[singing]
2:21>> Brené.
2:24In order to um understand all the work
2:25that you have done and the perspective
2:27that you have on the world and also who
2:28you are as a anomaly in many respects, I
2:31think it's probably important that I
2:32understand your earliest context.
2:34Where you've come from, what shaped you.
2:36I'm stuck on a
2:37Am I a Am I an anomaly? I think of
2:40course you're an anomaly.
2:41Of course you're an anomaly. It that
2:43that should be of no surprise to you.
2:45I mean, if you look at your outcomes,
2:46your outcomes are anomalous.
2:48So, one would assume that there's some
2:49form
2:50>> [snorts]
2:51>> something that made you an anomaly.
2:54I would say that
2:58I'm a fifth-generation Texan. Mhm.
3:01I
3:03came from a fair amount of
3:06dysfunction.
3:08Parents doing the best they could
3:11with what they knew.
3:13Both coming from really, really, really
3:16tough upbringings that included, you
3:19know,
3:20poverty,
3:21addiction. And so, probably a lot of the
3:24stereotypes you would think about
3:25fifth-generation Texan, tough, don't
3:28cry, we were allowed a very small
3:31continuum of emotions were approval, you
3:34know, were approved, which were pissed
3:36off
3:37or okay. Like anger was okay, but no,
3:40you know, couldn't be sad, really. Or
3:42vulnerability was not a thing.
3:44Vulnerability was weakness and scary and
3:46put you in jeopardy.
3:48I felt like a real outsider at home and
3:51in school.
3:52But I was really good at reading people,
3:55reading situations. I think my I I think
3:58a therapist somewhere along the way said
4:00Yes, that's hypervigilance. Mhm. You're
4:02hypervigilant.
4:04You know, I can see everything around me
4:05and everything that's going on. I can
4:06connect things very quickly that other
4:08people don't see.
4:10And there was laughter
4:11and there was love,
4:15but there was a
4:16ton of unpredictability.
4:19I was going to say, isn't that typically
4:21what creates hypervigilance is some kind
4:22of
4:24need to be that aware when you're young?
4:27Yeah.
4:28Yeah, I mean, I think yes.
4:30Being fun-loving
4:32was very valued in my family and being
4:34tough. These were the values. These are
4:37These are on the parental scorecard.
4:40Mhm. This is what got you an A. If
4:42you're fun,
4:44easy,
4:45you can, you know, shoot straight, spit
4:47far, fish well,
4:49like really, drive fast. And so, those
4:52things were very valued.
4:54Athleticism was very valued.
4:57Um
5:05But those fun things could turn really
5:09hard very quickly.
5:11There was a big pause there. 4-second
5:13pause as you
5:13>> Yeah, I could just picture it. Like it's
5:15fun until
5:17it's fun until you've got a parent
5:19ejected from a game
5:21for being so hard.
5:23And that was your father?
5:24>> Yeah. How he is really hard, then, if he
5:26was ejected from a game. Oh, yeah.
5:28Yeah, yeah.
5:30There's a photo I saw of you and your
5:31siblings where you're clutching your
5:33siblings.
5:34And I think you referred to it as you
5:36could see there was a certain fear in
5:37your eyes. Do you Do you know the photo
5:38I'm referring to? Am I on a couch?
5:41You're on a couch, is that
5:41>> Like a yellow velour couch like from the
5:44'70s?
5:44>> Yes. Yeah.
5:46I think about that picture. I like that
5:48picture, but there is definitely I
5:50definitely had a protector role as the
5:52oldest. I mean, code name Sister
5:54Superior. It was jokingly, but it wasn't
5:56joking. Like if things got hard between
5:59my parents and they would get involved
6:00till fights, I would go get all my
6:03siblings, put them in my room.
6:05I'd go downstairs and handle it, you
6:06know, like I was definitely the
6:07protector. Physically volatile fights?
6:10Um on occasion, but more emotionally
6:13volatile. Screaming and shouting?
6:15>> yeah. Same with my parents. Yeah, just
6:18loud. As a background in my whole house
6:20for my whole childhood was just
6:21screaming.
6:23There was a Yeah, we had a lot of
6:24screaming and there's a certain Like if
6:26you grew up with screaming, hearing
6:28screaming through a wall,
6:30Mhm.
6:31you [clears throat] know that sound.
6:32>> Mhm. Do you know that sound?
6:33>> Mhm, of course, yeah. Oh my god, it's my
6:34whole childhood. Yeah.
6:36>> Seven nights a week of screaming. Yeah.
6:37And so, yeah, I'm sorry because I don't
6:40like to hear that about your childhood
6:42and I don't like to know that about my
6:43childhood, but there was a lot of
6:44screaming. And so, I think
6:48hypervigilant,
6:52protective,
6:54responsible,
6:56with a dose of
7:00be very [ __ ] careful
7:03because
7:05I will protect my siblings.
7:10And and how did that change your model
7:11of love as a young person? It must have
7:13been cuz I mean, I obviously feel the
7:15same way about about my situation and um
7:17I think the lesson I learned was that
7:19love was like a prison cuz it was my mom
7:20doing the shouting and my dad was the
7:22prisoner and he wouldn't respond.
7:24So, this you got a woman shouting at him
7:26for 6, 7 hours a day and him sat there
7:28like he's a like
7:29inanimate object looking at the screen.
7:32And I remember thinking, "Oh, okay. So,
7:33if I get in a relationship when I'm
7:35older, then I'm going to be a prisoner
7:37to a woman. Okay."
7:39Doesn't sound Doesn't sound appealing.
7:41And if he moved to a different room,
7:42she'd follow him. So,
7:45I avoided relationships like the [ __ ]
7:46plague.
7:49I did well until about 27.
7:50>> [clears throat]
7:51>> And then what?
7:53And then someone got over the wall and
7:55corrected to some of the evidence.
7:57They got over the wall?
7:59>> over the wall somehow.
8:00Yeah, Steve got over the wall. Damn it.
8:03Well, that's your part of not me, just
8:04for context.
8:05>> No, not Yeah, NOT YOU.
8:06>> [laughter]
8:07>> ALTHOUGH YOU'RE DOING A HELL OF A JOB
8:09RIGHT NOW. Um you're like you've crossed
8:11the piranha-filled moat that I like. Um
8:14but the drawbridge is like I'm see I'm
8:16just see I'm going to see. My Steve My
8:18Steve definitely
8:21definitely got over the wall.
8:24Um but it was like game game recognizes
8:26game. He had a wall. Oh, okay.
8:28>> Yeah. And so, we had long conversations
8:30about our walls and and slowly through
8:32those conversations, we just
8:35those walls crumbled with each other and
8:37we've been together now for 38 years.
8:39>> Wow. Yeah.
8:40Um hardest thing I've ever done in my
8:42life.
8:44Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder.
8:48When I started dating Steve,
8:50well, when we got married, 6 months
8:53after we got married. This is, you know,
8:54you you said for you love was going to
8:57be being a prisoner. Mhm.
8:59And having to just shut down
9:02to survive.
9:02>> Mhm. Right?
9:04>> Run away. Don't confront it. No
9:05conversations, no fights.
9:06>> No. No.
9:08Um for me, 6 months after we were
9:10married, I went to go see a therapist
9:12and I said, "I cannot do this. I've got
9:14to get out of this marriage." And we had
9:16dated off and on for 7 years before we
9:17got married. And I said, "I got to get
9:19out."
9:20And she said, "I could The This is hard.
9:24I I could see how this is not working."
9:26And I was like
9:28I had a twinge of defensiveness about
9:30Steve and I said, "What do you mean?"
9:32And she said,
9:35"He likes you so much more
9:38than you like you. It must be terrible."
9:42I was like, "Fuck you, MAN. YOU'RE
9:43FIRED."
9:44>> [laughter]
9:46>> I WAS I WAS SO
9:49I I thought, "What?"
9:51That's what I do. So, if you I'm going
9:53to give you one of my tells.
9:54If I do a really high-pitched "What?"
9:57That means
9:59I'm That means I'm looking for my purse
10:01and I'm get I know where the door is. Um
10:04I I I I just kept thinking, "What do
10:06What do you mean?" He said, "It's got
10:07It's got to be very comf- uncomfortable
10:09to be with someone who sees you and
10:11really knows you and loves you so much
10:15when you have not found a way to see you
10:17and love you so much.
10:19It's got to be disconcerting."
10:22What an [ __ ] man. Like, wow. And it
10:25was true. I had to get to this point
10:26where I was like, I Maybe I should like
10:28me as much as he likes me and then make
10:31a better decision about whether this is
10:32going to work or not.
10:34When you grow up
10:37and pissed off or shut down are your two
10:39emotional opportunities. Like, that you
10:42know, in Atlas of the Heart, I write
10:44about 87 emotions that I think are
10:47important to understand because the
10:50limits of our language are the limits of
10:52our world.
10:54When you have two buckets,
10:58then everything must go in those. And in
11:00fact, in our research over the last 15
11:02years, we found the average person
11:05can accurately identify and name three
11:08emotions: happy, sad, pissed off. Mhm.
11:12>> [clears throat]
11:13>> And so, in my family, sad was not
11:17an option. That was weakness.
11:19So, you could be pissed or okay.
11:23So, when I get scared,
11:26when I feel grief,
11:28when I'm anxious, when I feel
11:30disappointment, when I feel anguish,
11:34I'm just angry.
11:36There's two sort of outstanding question
11:38marks in my head, and they might be the
11:39same answer, but it's You said earlier
11:41on that you didn't fit in at school or
11:43at home, and I didn't understand why you
11:45didn't fit in at school or at at home.
11:47And then the other thing that's sort of
11:48a question mark in my head is the
11:49therapist said to you that you well,
11:51asserted that you didn't like yourself
11:52as much as he liked you, and I wasn't
11:54clear on what made you not like
11:55yourself.
11:57I wanted out of where I was raised. I
12:00wanted to leave everything I knew.
12:03And so, I always felt like an outsider.
12:06I didn't
12:09I didn't want to do I mean, I wasn't
12:11popular.
12:13I wasn't dating a quarterback. That was
12:15a dream that my my parents and their
12:18parents and their parents, you know, you
12:21were you were a Bear Cadet and you dated
12:23a quarterback.
12:24And you got a farm. So, at
12:27I felt not cute, not popular,
12:31not understood.
12:34And then at home,
12:38I wasn't easygoing.
12:42I was ang- I was anxious
12:45and and always ready.
12:48And the point about self-esteem, which
12:50the therapist would have highlighted
12:51about not liking oneself as much as
12:53Steve liked you, where did that come
12:55from? Or is that related in some way?
12:57Oh, cuz my parents parented with a very
12:59big a heaping dose of shame.
13:02Oh, okay. So, if you accomplish
13:04something or you don't accomplish
13:06something, you're made to feel bad about
13:07it.
13:08>> Yeah.
13:09And a ton of it was about appearance,
13:14being fun, appearance? Yeah.
13:17Yeah, like, you know,
13:19big blonde hair with hot rollers, the
13:21higher the hair, the closer to God. You
13:24needed to be tough and strong and throw
13:27on a baseball cap and get somewhere
13:29really quick, low maintenance,
13:32and you needed to be a beauty pageant
13:34queen.
13:35Do you remember them ever
13:37being critical of your appearance in a
13:38way that has stayed with you?
13:41Oh my god, yes.
13:44I mean, I think not just them. I mean,
13:46like, I think
13:49having young girls and young women
13:53keeping them
13:55from developing threats to their
13:57self-esteem
14:00is not just a parental thing. It's like
14:01it's It's like asking them not to
14:02breathe because the air is poison. Like,
14:04it's like every message from everywhere,
14:07you know, the fashion magazines, you'd
14:09read them and you'd think,
14:10"Wow,
14:12I don't I don't look like this. How am I
14:15going to look like this?" You know, and
14:17you'd lather yourself up with baby oil
14:19and you put lemon juice in your hair,
14:21you put tin foil under your chin, get as
14:23much skin cancer as you could cuz we
14:24didn't know, you know, like, you you'd
14:27We all wore jeans that you had to put on
14:30with pliers with for the zipper cuz they
14:32were so tight. Appearance mattered. This
14:36is Texas, baby.
14:38You go off to university eventually, and
14:40not a straight line, but eventually you
14:41get into university. Not a straight
14:42line. Mhm. That's the sweetest thing
14:45you've said to me.
14:46Um
14:47I graduated from college when I was 29.
14:50Well, so you become a research professor
14:53in 2001.
14:55>> [clears throat]
14:55>> And you've been a research professor and
14:58many more things um ever since then. You
15:00get your PhD in social work at the
15:02University of Houston, Texas
15:04between '96 and 2002. And really for the
15:08last couple of decades, you've focused
15:10on research, understanding people.
15:12Obviously, there's so many more strings
15:14to your bow in terms of like media and
15:15podcasting and authorship. But over
15:18those since 2001, we're in 2025 now,
15:21just over two decades.
15:23My first question is um
15:25how has your perspective on How has the
15:28world changed in those last two decades
15:29in your view?
15:31Unions would say before any
15:35great progression,
15:37there is a regression.
15:40And I think
15:42that
15:44when you look at various admin- I know
15:46you have a very global audience. When
15:47you look at administrations,
15:49political administrations across the
15:50world, and you look at
15:54how power is being used right now,
15:59it will tell you a lot about what
16:01they're afraid of.
16:02Mhm.
16:07What What is that face? We're going to
16:08have to pause it.
16:09>> I was thinking about a conversation I
16:10had recently with my my best friends. It
16:11must have been this weekend. Yeah, it
16:13was this weekend cuz it was my friend's
16:14birthday in Manchester, the UK, so we
16:16flew in.
16:17Um and we had a conversation about how
16:20the leading political narrative at the
16:21moment, this might be adjacent to what
16:23you were saying, but it's the way I
16:23interpreted it. The leading political
16:25narrative at the moment that seems to be
16:26getting people elected is if you say
16:30those people with that skin color are
16:32the reason for the pain and anguish in
16:33your life, it's actually the people
16:35below you that are coming over the
16:37border or crossing the the English
16:39Channel on dinghies that are ruining
16:41your life, and it seems to be like a
16:43really effective narrative to 100%.
16:46empower both in the US and the UK. Like,
16:48the central narrative that is swaying
16:50elections it seems at the moment in the
16:51UK and the US is
16:52those brown people on that boat or
16:54coming over the border are the reason
16:56for the pain in your life,
16:57and it seems to work, and that seems to
16:59be the thing getting power. So, that's
17:00kind of what ran through my head when I
17:01heard this idea of like power and what
17:03you're scared of. I actually think I
17:05inverted it to if I can tell you what to
17:07be scared of or find the thing you might
17:09be scared of or whatever, then I get
17:10power. But maybe it goes the other way,
17:12too.
17:13I don't think we'll ever talk about
17:15anything more important than this, to be
17:16honest with you. That's why I thought
17:18your response was so interesting cuz you
17:22you you may if I was going to like do
17:24the text box above your face, Mhm.
17:27it would have said, "Well, holy [ __ ]
17:29That's interesting." Because
17:32we when you use power, especially power
17:34over, cuz there's multiple kinds of
17:35power. There's power with and to
17:38and power within.
17:40So, people that use power with and to
17:42and power within work from a belief
17:44system that's completely different.
17:47We believe that power is infinite and
17:49can grow when shared.
17:51People who use power over
17:53work from a belief system that power is
17:55finite, like pizza, and if I give you
17:58any, I have a deficit.
18:00So, it's got to be hoarded and protected
18:02and not shared.
18:03Power over
18:05is really important to understand
18:07because when people are using power
18:09over, they're definitely letting you
18:10know what they're afraid of because
18:12that's what they're focused on.
18:14And they're tapping into, and I think
18:16this is absolutely true,
18:19if you give people
18:22someone to dislike
18:25and blame for their pain,
18:28and they look different than the people
18:29who are voting, you [clears throat] will
18:31win 100 times out of 100.
18:34If you say, "I see your pain. I can tell
18:37you exactly the source of it, and I can
18:39fix this for you.
18:41And [clears throat] the source of it is
18:42going to be easy to see. You're not
18:44going to see yourself in them."
18:46Mhm.
18:48So, that narrative that you were talking
18:49about, it is a full circle. People in
18:52power
18:54use power to address issues that they're
18:56afraid of.
18:57They gain power by leveraging fear and
19:00giving people an enemy.
19:02That's how this works.
19:04It works like this I mean, I spend 95%
19:06of my time in organizations
19:09working with C-suite leaders and senior
19:11leaders. This This is how it works in
19:13organizations, how it works in
19:15political, you know, how it works in
19:17faith communities. This is how power
19:18works in general. So, power over is a
19:21very specific kind of power,
19:23and it's especially dangerous because in
19:25order to maintain it,
19:28you have to engage in periodic bouts of
19:31cruelty towards vulnerable populations.
19:34You have to remind people what you're
19:36capable of.
19:38So, there's four types of power you you
19:40you speak about in um Damn, you
19:42[clears throat] have that in your notes?
19:43>> in Strong Ground. Yes.
19:46Why are you surprised? I don't know.
19:49It's It's four types of power and
19:50leadership you speak about. There's the
19:51power over, which is controlling or
19:52exploiting and there's power with
19:53finding common ground and building
19:55collective strength, power to which is
19:57giving others agency and recognizing
19:58their potential, and power within which
20:00is honoring differences and self-worth.
20:05So, as a leader of a business, if I were
20:06to be successful,
20:08are you telling me that I need to stay
20:10away from power over and adopt another
20:13power within this list of four?
20:16Yeah, I think
20:18what we've seen be very successful over
20:21time is power with, power to, and power
20:24within.
20:25So,
20:27collaborative power, co-creation power,
20:31self-awareness,
20:33metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing
20:35how you think and learn. So, power with
20:37and power to. Power over is
20:41excruciatingly difficult to maintain.
20:45We're not neurobiologically
20:47hardwired
20:49to stay in fear for very long.
20:52So,
20:54if I work for you if I work for you,
20:58and you're using power over to lead me,
21:01you're threatening me with my job,
21:03you're threatening me with consequences,
21:04you're threatening me with demotion,
21:07one of two things is going to happen for
21:08me neurobiologically. I am either going
21:12to
21:14just become numb to it. It's not It's
21:17not going to be able to You're not going
21:18to maintain I can't maintain that
21:20constant level of fear. It's just too
21:22demanding.
21:23>> [snorts]
21:23>> Just physically demanding.
21:26Or I might get hyper
21:29normalized. I might just like this is
21:31This is what I work in. This is like
21:32crazy. This is it, you know? But every
21:34now and then you're going to have to do
21:36something that demonstrates to me how
21:40chaotic and cruel you can actually be.
21:42Like you're going to have to engage in
21:44periodic acts of cruelty to remind me
21:47that the fear is real and to put me back
21:49in it.
21:50And so, one of the things you're seeing
21:52right now, I mean like we in in the US,
21:56the deportation and immigration issues.
22:00This is not a president that has, you
22:03know, tightened his belt on immigration
22:06more than other previous presidents. But
22:08we've never seen masked people
22:11grabbing people off the street while
22:13children hold on to their legs
22:15screaming, "Mom, mom, mom." We've We've
22:17never seen that before, right? But we've
22:19had other presidents
22:22probably exceed
22:25the deportation numbers that we're
22:26seeing.
22:27But we've never seen that level of
22:29cruelty in display.
22:31That is a real display of cruelty as a
22:35reminder of who who holds power and who
22:38does not.
22:40It also makes me think of relationships
22:41when you're talking about
22:43you know, how people are controlled with
22:45power over. A lot of people talk about
22:47like sort of narcissistic relationships
22:48or abusive relationships where
22:51they don't feel like they can leave or
22:53you know, they don't leave and they end
22:55up becoming acclimatized to the
22:57treatment.
22:58I'm a big systems theory I'm a systems
23:00theory person. I think in systems theory
23:02I was trained in systems theory. I think
23:04if you don't understand systems systems
23:06theory, at least if you're leading an
23:08organization right now, you're going to
23:09fall behind because
23:13the complexity inside and outside of
23:15organizations is such that we need a
23:17framework to understand how all these
23:21individual systems are bumping up
23:22against each other. Like you you
23:24probably bump up against
23:27a hundred systems a day, right?
23:28>> Yeah. And so, what I would imagine, the
23:32story I would make up about your
23:33success,
23:36cuz this is true of any systems theory,
23:37is in order for systems to thrive and
23:39grow,
23:41they have to keep permeable boundaries.
23:44Meaning they have to allow feedback to
23:47flow in and out from other systems. Mhm.
23:50>> [clears throat]
23:50>> To be aware. So, I'm just going to give
23:53you a very good example. I'm very
23:54excited about the female
23:56the experts you had on Mhm.
23:59around menopause,
24:02women's life. I mean, I'm so excited
24:03about that. Mhm. Like just to be honest
24:05with you, like Mary Claire is my doctor.
24:07Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Haver.
24:09So,
24:10um
24:13what is interesting is the systems that
24:15just that podcast bumps up against.
24:20You know, and the systems that would be
24:22sending feedback that hey, this is not
24:24for me. I'm not clicking on this.
24:26I I've shared that first one with a
24:28hundred people.
24:29>> [laughter]
24:30>> You know, because there's a reality to
24:33our lives that is uncomfortable for
24:35people.
24:36But those are your partners and your
24:37moms and your, you know, and your bosses
24:41and it's real. And I can guarantee you
24:43this was happening with the dudes.
24:46Yeah. Like it'd be a gazillion dollar
24:50whatever is over a trillion, gazillion.
24:52I don't know. Um but just thinking about
24:54that one podcast and the systems that
24:56you're touching. Health, women's issues,
25:00um family systems are affected. Like
25:03that podcast hits 20 systems that I can
25:05think of in my head right now.
25:06>> Mhm.
25:07>> [clears throat]
25:07>> The divorce rates of people of women in
25:09their 50s and 60s. Mhm. I mean, right?
25:11Yes or no?
25:12>> Yeah, 100% yeah. Right. So, a healthy
25:15system has permeable boundaries, meaning
25:17feedback is flowing in and out all the
25:19time.
25:20What happens when the world gets complex
25:24is we start not wanting the feedback.
25:26The complexity is too big. So, we start
25:29shutting down those permeable
25:30boundaries. Well, what happens to a
25:32system where the boundaries are no
25:34longer permeable? It atrophies.
25:37And in the in the process of atrophying,
25:40the system becomes self-referencing. Are
25:42we good? We're great.
25:44Are we right? We're right. Are we on
25:46target? We're on target. Because the
25:49boundaries of the system is are no
25:51longer craving outside feedback even
25:53when it's tough. And in businesses
25:55today,
25:57the geopolitical realities,
25:59the market changes, AI, I mean, it's
26:04crazy. Mhm. And so,
26:07our
26:09predisposition
26:11to shut down uncertainty and complexity
26:14is the biggest threat to the systems in
26:16which we work and live.
26:19The self-protect, close the wall, put up
26:22the drawbridge, fill the moat with
26:24piranhas.
26:26We just don't have that luxury. We've
26:28got to keep the the boundaries
26:29permeable. We've got to keep learning,
26:31guessing, unlearning, relearning. One of
26:34the added complexities is the rise of
26:37algorithms. And And actually, when I
26:38think about algorithms that are powered
26:41by AI, they're going to be even better
26:42at knowing what you want to see so that
26:44you spend time so that you consume more
26:46adverts, which means
26:48probably the best thing to show me is
26:49either something really fearful or to to
26:51confirm what I already believe.
26:53>> 100%. An algorithm that was doing the
26:54opposite probably wouldn't be an
26:55enjoyable experience for the average
26:57human brain. It would cause too much
26:58dissonance, too much discomfort.
26:59>> But great for democracy. Great. Yeah,
27:01fantastic. But terrible for for running
27:04a business and selling ads. So, any
27:06company that takes that approach will go
27:07bankrupt. This is why TikTok I think
27:09have been so successful is the algorithm
27:11is I don't use TikTok. It's I have a
27:13TikTok account. I don't have the app on
27:15my phone. But um from what I hear is
27:18it's so unbelievably addictive. People
27:19describe it to me and they're like, "Oh
27:21my god, it's so addictive." But this
27:22[ __ ] is the devil. Yeah.
27:26Yeah.
27:28But it's
27:29people are driven by incentives, right?
27:31And you know, your
27:32your share price is going to tumble and
27:33you're going to be fired.
27:35You're going to lose your your status
27:36and your power if you don't do that.
27:40I'm playing devil's advocate. Obviously,
27:41I'm not saying
27:42>> No,
27:43I No, I agree.
27:45What do you think the solution is?
27:48And what responsibility do
27:51the bros who run these tech platforms
27:55have?
27:56It's complicated.
27:58Well, I agree. I'm not looking for an
27:59easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me. Well, and
28:01I just think it's complicated because
28:04what what an objective party would say,
28:06who's just looking at the incentives of
28:08these groups of people, is if they don't
28:10do it,
28:11then China will. So, even with AI now,
28:15you know what I mean? I'm like I've sat
28:16with all these experts and I keep
28:18hitting up against this wall, which is
28:19okay, if we just banned people in the
28:21United States from pursuing this super
28:22intelligence strategy, then Russia and
28:25China get there first, then the United
28:27States, unfortunately, are going to end
28:28up being
28:30China's French bulldog.
28:32And actually, I can't refute that. I go,
28:34"No, you're right." Cuz we would you'd
28:35have to literally lease the technology
28:37off them. It will be so powerful and
28:39give such an economic advantage that you
28:41will have to lease it off China. So,
28:42you're like, "Okay, I guess Sam Altman
28:44does need to crack on."
28:46Or else
28:48So, it's complicated.
28:50>> I mean, this is where I end up every
28:52time.
28:53I mean, look what happened with TikTok.
28:54China made an algorithm. It was
28:56unbelievably addictive. The United
28:57States have just had to buy it off them.
29:00Because they were scared that the data
29:01was going to be used against the United
29:02States. It's a prime example. Like China
29:03were like, "Fuck it, we don't care."
29:05Yeah, right.
29:05>> Yeah.
29:06And they made an unbelievable algorithm
29:08called TikTok, which just captivated,
29:09you know, the youth are all just like
29:11losing their brains. So,
29:12I don't know. I don't know. It's tough.
29:13It's rough.
29:14Spiritual crisis.
29:17Yeah, I mean, you just laid it out.
29:19You just laid it out.
29:22We're emotionally dysregulated. We're
29:24distrustful of each other. We don't
29:26trust ourselves very much and we're
29:27disconnected. I can't give up on people,
29:30though. I'm not built that way.
29:33Like I just believe that we are more
29:36good than greedy.
29:39You know, I I was in conversation with
29:41Trevor Noah at an event.
29:43And I mentioned this term that I I was
29:45really excited about
29:47And he challenged me on it.
29:50And I said, I think what we need is
29:51cognitive sovereignty. We need to
29:54wrestle control
29:57away from the algorithms
29:59and decide what we consume, what we
30:02read, how we think, think critically.
30:06We need
30:08to think about our attention and our
30:09focus
30:11as commodities that people are after.
30:15>> Because they're after them, right?
30:16>> Mhm.
30:18He had an interesting point though. He
30:19always has interesting points, don't you
30:21think?
30:21>> tough to to talk to Trevor because he's
30:23so he's always got an interesting point.
30:25>> He's always got an interesting point.
30:27Damn it.
30:28Um and he's funny. But he said, "No, we
30:30need less cognitive sovereignty, Brené."
30:32And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He
30:33goes, "Everything's about the for you
30:35page. Everything's for you. We need
30:37communal sovereignty." He's like, "You
30:39know, the whole problem is that your for
30:42you page is completely sovereign. You
30:45intellectually and spiritually" I'm I'm
30:47I'm paraphrasing what he said. I'm sure
30:49it was like
30:51funnier and better looking, but
30:53um
30:55but
30:56he he and then then I was trying to
30:58think about like I guess maybe that's
31:00not the right term. But let me let me
31:02tell you what scares me the most.
31:04I'm in I'm in some weird rooms because
31:06of the nature of my job. I'm in rooms
31:08where the people who run these platforms
31:11and own and you know, that own the CEOs
31:13of these business and the founders are
31:14in these rooms. And I hear them talking
31:17and I hear things that are so misaligned
31:23that it panics me. So I hear someone
31:25say, "Hey, you know, tech billionaire,
31:28what what should my kids study? I'm
31:30worried for my kids." Well, they should
31:32study coding, physics, you know, and
31:34then 5 minutes later as if that answer
31:37didn't happen, someone will say,
31:39"To what do you attribute your success?
31:41I mean, deeply when you think about it."
31:43And the same person will say,
31:45"My deep philosophy and the Stoics."
31:49And so then I'm thinking to myself,
31:50well, which is it, dude?
31:53And then I then I start to extrapolate
31:55from there and wonder
31:57if there is a thinking class that's
32:00emerging
32:02where they're like, "We're going to read
32:03philosophy
32:05and we're going to read
32:07the liberal arts and we're going to
32:08study history.
32:10And the rest of you, just keep
32:12scrolling. Don't worry about the big
32:14words.
32:15Well, we'll handle all the big words for
32:16you." Like it's like when they asked
32:19Steve Jobs, "Well, your kids must love
32:22the iPad."
32:24Steve Jobs said,
32:26"My kids don't have an iPad."
32:28And then his biographer who spent time
32:30with his family said, "He wasn't
32:32kidding. There's no technology. At
32:34dinner, they're talking about art and
32:37history."
32:38Mhm. The hardest chapter I've ever
32:40written in my life of any book was the
32:42chapter on grounded confidence in Strong
32:43Ground.
32:44What is the set of skill sets and
32:46mindsets that I think we're going to
32:48need to future ready and future proof
32:50ourselves to be leaders moving forward?
32:53And I think what was hard about it was
32:55the complexity of it was probably a
32:57combination of 30 different mindsets and
32:58skill sets.
33:01And when I was done,
33:03you know, for commercial reasons,
33:05someone on my team immediately said,
33:06"Jeez, this is like a if you can train
33:08people in these things, this is really
33:11this is like really important."
33:13And the first thing I thought was [ __ ]
33:15that, my kids.
33:18Train train schmain. I get it. It's
33:20important. Like we'll we'll we'll we'll
33:22develop some instrumentation, measure
33:23it. We'll train folks in it. I think
33:25it's trainable, it's teachable, it's
33:26measurable.
33:27But really, I want this for my kids.
33:32I want my kids to know systems thinking.
33:33I want my kids to know anticipatory
33:36thinking, situational awareness,
33:38temporal awareness.
33:40I want my kids to have this complex set
33:44of skills.
33:46Do I want them to have jobs one day
33:48where all they're worried about a
33:49shareholder value? Really, no.
33:51I want them to own their mind, own their
33:54intellect, own their attention, and own
33:57their focus.
33:59I want them to read.
34:02I want them to understand
34:04history.
34:06I want them to develop pattern
34:07recognition skills cuz these are the
34:09skills of the future. I want them to be
34:11able to hold the tension of nuance and
34:15paradox
34:16when everything in their brain is
34:18saying, "Pick one, pick one, reconcile.
34:20I'm uncomfortable. Pick one, reconcile.
34:22I'm uncomfortable." That's neurobiology.
34:26In those 20 in those 20 years of your 20
34:28plus years of your career, what have you
34:30been exposed to from a 30,000 foot
34:32perspective? Like what
34:34what are the the wide range of reference
34:36points that you draw upon
34:38to be the person that you are today? And
34:42you know, cuz you've had you it feels
34:43like you've got a very wide range of
34:44references. Clearly, you know, you're
34:46you're someone that cares a lot about
34:46history. That comes through in your
34:48answers, but I'm wondering in your
34:49career like what are what are the
34:51experiences that you've had? Have you
34:53been working directly with patients? Is
34:55it aca- academic reference points you're
34:57drawing upon?
34:59Yeah, um
35:01no one's ever asked me this, which I've
35:03been grateful that no one's asked me. Um
35:07so what a pain in the ass, but um
35:10because no one's going to like the
35:11answer. I'm excited about the answer
35:13now.
35:15Everything. Like every single thing.
35:19Um yes, I you know, I love history. Yes,
35:23I
35:25read academic papers all the time. Yes,
35:29I wake up in the morning and I read
35:31because of the nature of my work, I read
35:32The Wall Street Journal, The New York
35:33Times, Bloomberg, The Financial Times.
35:36Like I yeah, I mean I I I read and a
35:38lot, but there's a chapter in the book
35:42that was one of my favorite to write on
35:44the transitions home from work.
35:47Mhm. And how how how tough they are.
35:50And how if you're like me, you've had a
35:52very frustrated partner look at you more
35:55than once in your life and say, "Hey,
35:58I know it was stressful. I don't work
35:59for you.
36:00Change gears." Yeah.
36:02Have you ever had that?
36:03>> No comment. No comment.
36:05>> [laughter]
36:06>> Yeah.
36:07I use a metaphor
36:09in that book in this chapter
36:12of a lock.
36:14And how did that come to me?
36:16Because I was reading the book series
36:17The Rivers of London.
36:19And in that book series,
36:22there are two gods of the Thames.
36:25And the Teddington Lock is where out
36:28right outside of London in Teddington is
36:30where custody changes for them. So I
36:33went to the Teddington Lock cuz I was
36:35interested. I met the lockmaster
36:39that runs the lock.
36:41She gave me a 3-hour lesson that day. We
36:43let narrowboats through the Thames.
36:46I learned how lock works and that's the
36:48metaphor that I use to talk about the
36:51research on what do we do when we spend
36:54all day locking in,
36:56hyperfocused, compartmentalizing,
36:59getting [ __ ] done.
37:01And then instead of going home to our
37:03partner, when we get home, we spend 30
37:05minutes in the garage on TikTok cuz we
37:07can't bear to go in.
37:10So why do we do that? Because we need a
37:13lock through period. We need time to go
37:17into a chamber metaphorically,
37:20change levels,
37:22let go of where we were, lower ourselves
37:24to the rhythm of what we're doing now.
37:26Cognitively we'd call it cognitive and
37:28domain shifting.
37:30And we need time. So I looked at the
37:32lockmaster at uh Teddington and said,
37:36"This should just take you a long time.
37:38Can we get this chamber filled up a
37:39little bit quicker?"
37:40And she said, "Locking through takes
37:42what locking through takes. If you rush
37:44it, you risk capsizing."
37:48We get home and then we walk in the back
37:50door and it's like, "I can't find my
37:51shin guards. I think I left them on the
37:53pitch. Where are my goggles, Mom? Oh my
37:55god, you didn't sign the permission
37:57slip. I had to sneak into the zoo." You
37:59know, and you're like,
38:02"Take me back to work where I'm the boss
38:03of everything." You [laughter] know. So
38:06where do I learn those things? Well,
38:08cognitive and domain shifting come out
38:10of psychology.
38:12Gemma, the lockmaster at Teddington,
38:14there's wisdom everywhere.
38:17I put it together as your stories and
38:18metaphors. I mean, another thing in the
38:20book. I mean, I'm standing on the
38:23sideline at DKR, the University of Texas
38:27Longhorn football stadium. Um and I'm
38:29standing with Emmanuel Acho.
38:31Do you know Emmanuel? No. Yeah, he's
38:32great. He played for the Longhorns. He
38:34played for the NFL. Now he's a writer.
38:36So I'm standing there and we're watching
38:39the game and I look at him and I go,
38:41"How would you define pocket presence?"
38:44And pocket presence is an American
38:45football term. So do you know American
38:48football? Okay. So I'm a quarterback.
38:51I'm going to get the ball and I have to
38:52throw the ball or run the ball or hand
38:54off the ball to get the ball down the
38:55pitch, down the field, right?
38:57>> Mhm.
38:57>> [clears throat]
38:57>> And when when the ball is snapped and
39:00the ball is put into motion,
39:02there's about 1,200 lb of really angry
39:06people trying to drive me into the
39:09ground.
39:10The people that are protecting me from
39:12those defensive guys are called my
39:15offensive line. Mhm. And the way they
39:17[clears throat] do it is they form a
39:18pocket around the quarterback.
39:21And the quarterback uses that time to
39:24decide where am I going to throw the
39:25ball? Am I going to run the ball? And
39:27pocket presence is the ability of a
39:30quarterback to use the on average 2.8 to
39:343 seconds he has to read the field,
39:38understand where the defenders are, and
39:39make a decision.
39:41And so when I asked Emmanuel Acho, "How
39:43would you define pocket presence?" He
39:45said,
39:47and I want you to think about this in
39:48terms of your business.
39:50The ability to read the field without
39:53seeing all of it.
39:55And trusting your team well enough
39:58to make a move
40:00even though you can't see everything.
40:03Mhm.
40:04What are the skill sets you need right
40:06there? One, temporal awareness.
40:08You got to know how much time you have
40:09to get rid of that ball and get it down
40:10the field. They they say Tom Brady, who
40:13played for the Patriots, is any of this
40:14ringing a bell?
40:15>> Yeah, I know who you mean. Great. Tom
40:16Brady.
40:17They said his pocket presence was so
40:19good, he could tell where his offensive
40:21linemen were by the vibrations through
40:24his his cleats on the field.
40:27So, temporal awareness, situational
40:30awareness, what's going on, anticipatory
40:32awareness.
40:34Think about a great football player.
40:37Right? Think about Masala.
40:39You don't kick the ball to where the
40:41striker is. You kick the ball to where
40:43the striker's going to be. Mhm. So,
40:45anticipatory and situational awareness,
40:47right?
40:47>> Mhm.
40:48Pattern recognition.
40:50Have I been in this situation before? Do
40:51I know how to, you know,
40:53where is the goalie in the cage? Where
40:54are they standing right now? Like and so
40:57I'll take my inspiration from sports all
40:59the time, which is why there's so many
41:00sports metaphors.
41:03Right? Mhm.
41:04>> [clears throat]
41:04>> I think there's not a better sports a
41:06better metaphor to describe work right
41:07now than
41:09American League Football.
41:12One of the things that um perhaps is is
41:14throughout your work is this idea of
41:15connection. I did a mushroom
41:19I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend
41:20a couple of years ago, the first time
41:21I've ever done it. And um
41:24the message that came through for me was
41:26it was about connection. And that word
41:28has had a fond place in my heart ever
41:30since. It's been really, really
41:30important. And we live in a society
41:32that's more lonely than ever before,
41:33more disconnected in many ways, as you
41:35described when you're referencing the
41:36spiritual crisis that we're living in.
41:39This word connection, what does that
41:40mean? Does it mean on an individual
41:42basis? Does it mean me having friends
41:44and relationships? Is that connection?
41:47Is that the type of connection I should
41:48be looking for? Or does it need Do I
41:49need to like Do you think people need to
41:51ladder up further to
41:53their city, their town, their world,
41:56to the community, to something bigger?
41:59God.
42:01What What does connection mean in this
42:02context?
42:02>> Yes.
42:06I think the answer to that question is
42:07yes. We're neuro- neurobiologically
42:10hardwired to be in connection with other
42:11people. And in the absence of
42:13connection, there's always suffering.
42:16Always suffering in the absence of
42:18connection. So, I think
42:21I mean, just how we're built, mirror
42:22neurons, you know, our ability to sync
42:25up neurobiologically when we feel
42:27connected and are hearing each other.
42:29So, to me, connection is the ability to
42:31be in a relationship where we can both
42:33give and receive, where we feel seen,
42:36heard, believed, valued.
42:39That is that human connection is really
42:42important on a micro level, one-on-one
42:44with other human beings.
42:46I think a sense of belonging and a sense
42:49of place,
42:50and I don't know that that necessarily
42:52needs to be a location,
42:56but
42:59a sense of being a part of something
43:01bigger than you,
43:02I think is also important. So, love and
43:04belonging,
43:06connection, irreducible needs.
43:12I I think spirituality I define
43:15spirituality is being inextricably
43:18connected to other people by something
43:19bigger than us. Maybe that's love, maybe
43:21that's God,
43:23maybe that's fishing. Like I I you know,
43:25it's different for other people. For me,
43:27I'm faith is one of my values and I'm a
43:29a pretty serious God person.
43:32Um I'm a pretty deep person of faith. I
43:35guess I would ask somebody,
43:37"What is that thing
43:40that transcends
43:43difference?
43:45Political difference, ideological
43:46difference, race, gender, you know,
43:49belief systems, class, what is it
43:53that brings you to a common humanity
43:55place?"
43:59Like for me, it's God. That's it's a big
44:00challenge.
44:01Cuz like I I try to work from an ethos
44:03where I try to find God in the face of
44:04everybody that I meet, even if I want to
44:06punch you in the throat. I try to like
44:10Like like that's my thing. In some way,
44:12I'm connected to you. Mhm. Whether I
44:15like it or not and whether I like you or
44:16not.
44:20And when you talk about belonging, it's
44:21interesting in your book Braving the
44:22Wilderness, which I think the question's
44:25kind of summed up by the subtitle here.
44:26The quest for true belonging and the
44:28courage to stand alone. This appears to
44:30be a dichotomy or a contradiction. Mhm.
44:33To belong, but also to stand alone.
44:34>> Mhm.
44:37Why are both of these important? Why is
44:39it important to belong? What does that
44:40mean? And And why is it also important
44:42to
44:43stand alone?
44:45Cuz I don't think you can truly belong
44:48to anything or any or or any group if
44:51you don't belong to yourself first.
44:54True belonging
44:57requires us to be who we are,
45:01not to change who we are. That's fitting
45:04in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to
45:05belonging.
45:07Mhm.
45:08Which takes us both back to our
45:10childhoods, right?
45:11>> Mhm. Yeah. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in. Fit
45:15in.
45:16The problem is that that chameleon
45:20kind of skill set
45:24means that in order to fit in, the first
45:28person you betray is yourself. We've got
45:30to be able to stand alone.
45:32And that's what's happening right now in
45:33the world. I mean, if I if I look back
45:35at Braving the Wilderness,
45:36that was maybe the only prophetic book
45:39that I think I've ever written. Like
45:41that Like Like that I don't think I'm
45:42profit like, but man, did I call what
45:44was happening in terms of the big sort
45:47into ideological bunkers, where we are
45:50going to get to a place where
45:53I don't even know you, but I'm going to
45:55call you friend because we hate the same
45:57people.
46:00And you over there,
46:02I actually do love you.
46:04You're a family member of mine.
46:08But I'm not, you know, because we don't
46:09believe in the same things,
46:11you have no meaning in my life. Like
46:12it's like we have gotten to the place
46:14where
46:16ideological bunkers,
46:19and those are so dangerous cuz here you
46:21and I like let's say let's say that we
46:23have the same belief around immigration.
46:26Um so we're going to flip this table
46:28over and we're going to get behind it in
46:29our ideological bunker and we're going
46:31to be like, "Yeah, we're right and these
46:34guys are [ __ ] crazy and [ __ ] y'all."
46:36You know, and then one day I'm going to
46:38turn to you and say, "You know, one
46:40thing I'm wondering about
46:43is how are we going to solve the problem
46:47>> [clears throat]
46:47>> with the folks coming over
46:50in the dinghies
46:52from France? Cuz I don't think we're
46:54going to be able to go without solving
46:56it
46:57because we do have an employment issue
46:58and a housing crisis." And then you go,
47:02"You're out."
47:05My My care for you, my connection with
47:07you, completely dependent
47:10on you not questioning anything we
47:12agreed to back here.
47:15Well, that's counterfeit connection.
47:19What's real connection? Like I got to
47:21know what's going on in your mind cuz
47:23your face is like We got to play poker.
47:25We got to put that on our agenda.
47:26>> [laughter]
47:28>> What are you thinking? I was just
47:29thinking about being a podcaster and I
47:31sit here with all types of people. So, I
47:32had Kamala Harris sat here
47:34>> Mhm. uh
47:363 or 4 days ago and I'll have someone on
47:39the right sat here. You know, and then
47:41I'll have maybe Michelle Obama, then
47:43I'll have Jordan Peterson, then I'll
47:45have the opposite of whatever Jordan
47:46Peterson is. And I was just thinking
47:48about how um
47:50how that's also kind of made me feel
47:51like I don't belong
47:53because that is quite rare.
47:56There's probably not a podcaster on
47:57Earth that has had both Michelle Obama
47:58and Jordan Peterson.
48:00No. Yeah. And then Kamala Harris after
48:03that. Like I didn't manage to scare
48:04Michelle off. I didn't scare Jordan off.
48:07And so
48:09you get you kind of get attacked from
48:10both sides. Oh, I mean, look,
48:13if you're not if you're not
48:16getting threatening [ __ ]
48:19from the far
48:21here, the far left or the far right, if
48:23you're not getting both, you're not
48:24doing your job.
48:25>> Amen. Yeah.
48:27>> Period. But it's tough. Oh God, it is
48:30heartbreaking.
48:31>> Yeah.
48:32It will break your heart and it will
48:35remind you of why standing alone
48:39is on the front of that book. Mhm.
48:41Because what it will do it is it is
48:44Winnow the right word? It will narrow
48:47your belonging, your true belonging,
48:50down to
48:52a very few people.
48:54>> I mean, I completely understand how it
48:56happens that a podcaster like me will
48:59end up picking a side because there is
49:01safety in numbers. Well, cuz there's an
49:03ideological bunker cuz we flipped the
49:04table over. 100% At any point, you know,
49:07when the left attacks you, I'm like,
49:08"Wow, the right looks pretty." When the
49:09right attacks you, you go, "Oh, the left
49:11looks pretty."
49:12Because standing in the in no man's land
49:14is
49:16is not the place you want to be.
49:18I know I'm never going to succeed in
49:20this. Like I know I'm never going to
49:22succeed in converting people converting
49:24people to be nuanced and to not get
49:26viscerally angry when I have someone on
49:28the show who's on the right or
49:30viscerally angry when I have someone on
49:31the show who's on the left. I'm already
49:32aware that when the Kamala episode comes
49:34out, it's just going to be a bunch of
49:34people that didn't listen and within the
49:35first 3 minutes, the comment section's
49:37just going to be [ __ ] you.
49:38>> Yeah. And I'm like part of me is trying
49:41to win that war with my audience, where
49:44they too will just listen.
49:46And I know that you don't agree with the
49:48person, but can you just listen?
49:50Cuz that's what I do, and it's not some
49:51act I'm putting on. It's not like I walk
49:52out there and I start but I I'm
49:54right-wing in my kitchen or left-wing in
49:55my kitchen. Genuinely, the brain where
49:57my brain works is oh, I see this this
49:59good in this individual.
50:01And then I meet someone else who's on
50:02the other side and I say oh, there's a
50:03couple of points of good that I agree
50:04upon I agree with them on this.
50:06That's how I am, and it feels so weird.
50:09Because when you go on the internet, you
50:10don't find yourself
50:12being compelled by either side entirely.
50:15No.
50:16No, and I think it's really confusing,
50:17and the only limit I have really is I am
50:20not probably going to have a
50:21conversation with you.
50:25If your beliefs question my humanity.
50:30Okay. That that's going to be my line.
50:33That that's going to be that's going to
50:34be the line for me is going to be
50:39if you're cruel
50:41or name-calling Yeah.
50:43or if your core beliefs about who I am
50:47Mhm.
50:47>> [clears throat]
50:48>> or who other people are are
50:49dehumanizing.
50:51I I I can't I can't that I can't do
50:54because now I've betrayed myself in
50:56order to make a political point about
50:58nuance. Yeah. Because that because you
51:00know
51:01dehumanization is a really interesting
51:04and hard thing.
51:06When you study when you look at the
51:07research of people who study
51:08dehumanization
51:10and you we talked about earlier with the
51:12with immigrant populations.
51:16There is a circle of moral inclusion.
51:19We are not built
51:22we are not hardwired to hurt each other,
51:24to kill each other
51:26assault, rape, beat.
51:31It's not we're not wired for it
51:32actually. So, in order
51:35to do that
51:37you you've got a person here inside your
51:39moral inclusion.
51:41In order to be okay with that, you've
51:43got to push them outside of moral
51:45inclusion to be morally excluded from
51:48somebody you see as human and worthy of
51:51moral inclusion. And the first step to
51:54moral exclusion
51:56moving people out of a safety zone where
51:59you don't do horrible things to them
52:01the first way to move people out is
52:04language. throughout history
52:06as long as people have lived. So
52:10you hear people in this administration
52:12calling a a community of immigrants an
52:15infestation.
52:18The same way we would talk about animals
52:19or rats.
52:21You know, and so my only limit
52:24to hard conversation
52:27is
52:28if you're operating from an ideology
52:32where women are dogs
52:34immigrants are illegals. You know, if
52:37you're operating from that place of
52:39moral exclusion
52:42you are too dangerous for me.
52:46But other than that, I'd probably be
52:48willing to have a conversation with
52:49anyone. But I can understand why people
52:51pick sides. I tell you what, it is
52:54lonely. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
52:57It's nice to hear that. It's really nice
52:58to hear that that that is um
53:03Yeah.
53:04We've talked about it quite a lot, me
53:05and Jack um who's been producing the
53:08show since the very beginning. Uh we've
53:10we've talked a lot about how
53:12we understand the temptation to pick a
53:13side. And actually, one of the greatest
53:14compliments a journalist has ever given
53:16me
53:16is they wrote in the article, and this
53:18wasn't a journalist that liked me, they
53:20just said um
53:21we're unable to
53:24ascertain which political party he is
53:25part of.
53:27I thought that was a great compliment
53:28because
53:29I mean
53:30>> it means that
53:32That's that's a journal that's a
53:33journalistic ethos. I think they would
53:35want to pin me down and say he's [ __ ]
53:36they'd love to say I'm right-wing or
53:38Yeah. something else.
53:40But they said um in a not very nice
53:42piece they'd written about me whatever,
53:43they said that he
53:44we're unable to figure out what side
53:46he's part of. And I think that's a
53:47compliment because it's it's true and it
53:49I think it allows me to do my job better
53:50that I don't have too many
53:51preconceptions when I meet people. I try
53:53to meet people for the first time.
53:55Which I enjoy. I think you're pretty
53:56good at that cuz you are insatiably
53:58curious. Mhm. It's it's lovely and
54:01terrible.
54:02Why terrible? It's terrible for an
54:03avoidant.
54:05I found this out recently. I've known it
54:07my whole life, but I found it out
54:08recently cuz I had a conversation with
54:09someone. If someone's I think if
54:10someone's uncomfortable with
54:11vulnerability, then I'm like their
54:13[ __ ] worst nightmare.
54:13>> YOU ARE.
54:14>> [laughter]
54:16>> WHICH IS INTERESTING CUZ I DON'T EXPECT
54:18YOU as super vulnerable. Really?
54:21Uh
54:23Maybe not.
54:24>> Carefully optimistic vulnerable. Yeah,
54:26that's probably Like like you're you're
54:29cognitively a believer Yeah.
54:31>> and trying to move the rest of you to
54:33it.
54:37You've got the journalistic ethos
54:39of
54:42equal opportunity
54:45insatiable curious guy, right?
54:46>> Mhm.
54:48What do you think the responsibility is
54:51of someone who has a platform? Mhm.
54:56to vet or understand the credibility
55:02especially when it comes to science or
55:03those kind of things of what their guest
55:05is saying.
55:06I think that we
55:09the school of podcasters haven't really
55:12we don't have the um
55:15the ex the training that journalists do.
55:18So, we're almost catching up in that
55:20regard, especially if you become a big
55:21podcaster because you're kind of held
55:23you're held at a in a different level.
55:24So, more recently, one of the things we
55:26do is we we've hired a I mean this
55:28recently was a year and a half ago. We
55:29hired a PhD who does exactly that, who
55:32after this comes out will go through
55:33everything that you said and then put on
55:35the screen things that were
55:39not within scientific consensus. But
55:41that in itself
55:45is a decision. Yeah.
55:48Yeah.
55:49It is a decision.
55:53It's not a choice without consequence
55:54either. No, some people don't like it.
56:00What led you to that choice?
56:02When your podcast reaches lots of people
56:05you're forced It's kind of going goes
56:06what I said earlier about the political
56:07stuff. You're forced to really get clear
56:10on what you believe and like what
56:11matters to you. And one of the things
56:12that matters to me is that the stuff we
56:15put into the world, we feel like it's
56:17helping people even if it's not nice.
56:20And it kind of goes to something that I
56:21read in your work, which is like our
56:22objective isn't to be
56:24nice, it's to be kind. Oh, yeah. And so,
56:26for example, my convers- the
56:27conversations we have about AI, like I'm
56:29well aware that that's not going to
56:30necessarily make you feel great.
56:33But
56:34I think the avoidance of discomfort in
56:36in through history Oh god. hasn't led to
56:38great places. So, like if you think
56:40there's a bus coming, I can you know,
56:42it's
56:43I can pretend there isn't, but if I
56:45think that there might be a bus coming
56:46and if if experts in are telling me
56:48there's a bus coming, I think we should
56:49have a conversation about the bus
56:50coming. And actually, me having that
56:51conversation, I get messages all the
56:53time which is like please stop talking
56:54about this subject. It doesn't make me
56:55feel good.
56:57I'm very anchored to like what my my my
56:59job is here, and I think it's we can
57:01push people further
57:02towards uh
57:04we can we can create progress through
57:10honest conversations.
57:11So, when the podcast got bigger and you
57:14get more and more you get attacked more
57:16for any any of your guests that you have
57:17on, you have to get clear on what
57:19matters to you and what your job is. And
57:20so, one of the things I thought is
57:21actually when we have these
57:21conversations, I want them to be as
57:23accurate as they possibly can be.
57:25For the listener who might be confused
57:27cuz it's a confusing world in this new
57:28world of democratized media.
57:31So
57:32we do that.
57:33>> I really respect that. I just want to
57:34say um I don't think
57:37that that choice
57:39is the easy choice.
57:42What is the easy choice do you think?
57:44The easy choice is
57:47I'm going to let you
57:49say whatever you want
57:52and I'll let my listeners sort out if
57:53it's real or not.
57:55Mhm.
57:56>> [clears throat]
57:58>> And I'll take no responsibility for the
58:00credibility
58:02or the facts that are being presented.
58:06Mhm. Um
58:08what I think is interesting about what
58:10you're doing
58:12is
58:18it just seems like a very solid approach
58:21where
58:24I'm a big believer in science. You know,
58:26I'm married to a physician. I'm a social
58:28scientist. Like I'm I'm I'm not going to
58:31be the golden child of this
58:32administration when it comes to science
58:34for sure. Like I have a I love science
58:37Mhm.
58:38shirt that I wear with a DNA scarf. So,
58:40like I'm I'm like I'm very real about
58:43that.
58:45I also don't think
58:48that everything that we see
58:50that is projected as peer-reviewed
58:54clinical trial, you know, I think
58:57challenges to that system are also
58:59important. I think science cannot be a
59:02self-referencing system anymore than any
59:04other system can be. So, to have people
59:06that have different opinions or new
59:08opinions Mhm. on
59:11but to let your listeners or your
59:14viewers know that this is not an opinion
59:17where there's a lot of a data collected
59:19or that this is a controversial opinion
59:21is respecting people's cognitive
59:23self-determination.
59:26I I just think it's a it's it's an
59:28interesting way to do it. I just I I
59:30think
59:31I launched the podcast and it became
59:33very big during COVID.
59:35I got you.
59:37Yeah.
59:38And so
59:40Houston is home to the biggest medical
59:41center in the world.
59:43Like in the world.
59:45And I live in the medical center area.
59:48In the beginning there were just, you
59:50know, it just there never stopped being
59:52funerals for physicians and people
59:53working on COVID. And so to hear on
59:56podcast that it doesn't exist.
59:59Yeah. Or that you can use, you know,
1:00:02Windex or you know, like some [ __ ]
1:00:04like that.
1:00:05I I just started to and then I got into
1:00:07a little dust-up around it in my own
1:00:09situation. And so
1:00:11I'm always interested as we enter this
1:00:13world in
1:00:16platform and podcast responsibility.
1:00:21It is a it's a slippery slope and it's
1:00:24um
1:00:24>> Berry. And there's no
1:00:27there's no perfect outcome. Like you
1:00:29don't want to go too far either way,
1:00:30right? You don't want to like have the
1:00:32government get involved and tell you
1:00:33what truth is or
1:00:33>> Right. But you also don't want to stray
1:00:35into um conspiracy land and um Right.
1:00:39>> away from science because
1:00:41you know.
1:00:44There are things that are knowable.
1:00:45Yeah, there are things that are
1:00:46knowable. But
1:00:47>> Yeah. But
1:00:50I don't know. I I I just think it's an
1:00:52interesting question for this time and I
1:00:54think it's an interesting question when
1:00:56you have a platform that's powerful.
1:00:58And I think if you're doing the best you
1:01:00can to make decisions based What What is
1:01:03the question
1:01:05>> [clears throat]
1:01:06>> that drives your decision-making? For
1:01:08me? No, like just in general. Yeah,
1:01:11I got yours. You want you want to you
1:01:13want to help your listeners and you want
1:01:15to do good. Yeah. Um that's a different
1:01:18thing than downloads.
1:01:20You can do both. You can do both. But if
1:01:23your only filter Well, oh you you'd go
1:01:25for [ __ ] total conspiracy. Yeah.
1:01:27>> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I
1:01:29just think it's I just think it's an
1:01:31interesting question. I don't have an
1:01:32answer. I just know that it's an
1:01:33important question. Yeah, and you know
1:01:35what? I'll be honest so as um
1:01:37I mean we're not journalists we're not
1:01:39journalists here. So we don't really
1:01:40understand the rigor and I've got a lot
1:01:41of respect for journalists and the the
1:01:42effort they've put in to understand the
1:01:43journalistic method and all those
1:01:45things. I feel like we're somewhat
1:01:46catching up. We didn't this podcast went
1:01:47from zero to 70 million people a month
1:01:49in
1:01:504 and 1/2 years or something. Hard. So
1:01:53and we're just [ __ ] holding on. Like
1:01:54me and Jack didn't run a podcast before.
1:01:55So I didn't run one before and so
1:01:58we're now catching up and part of the
1:01:59part of the way that we're shaped is
1:02:01with feedback and you get lots of
1:02:03feedback. Don't have this person. I'll
1:02:04never speak to this person again. Don't
1:02:05know. And you kind of get back that
1:02:07stuff off but if there's any ever
1:02:08anything that actually feedback that
1:02:10actually isn't contra- contradiction
1:02:12that does test your own mission or your
1:02:15own values, then you listen and you will
1:02:16you know
1:02:17you can start to innovate and one of the
1:02:19things that we thought was smart was to
1:02:20have the pop-ups on screen which
1:02:22everybody is probably familiar with by
1:02:24now. And it's a balancing act. We don't
1:02:25want to completely discredit everything
1:02:28that a guest has to say but we also just
1:02:29want to give context. And that's kind of
1:02:32context what they're saying. If
1:02:33something's ridiculous we'll just remove
1:02:34it. Like if something's absolutely we
1:02:36will not publish the episode is probably
1:02:37a better way of saying it. We had a
1:02:38couple of episodes where people said
1:02:40some guest said some things which were
1:02:41just
1:02:42absolutely [ __ ] crazy. You don't need
1:02:44a PhD to know that
1:02:46you can't exercise by lying on the
1:02:47ground. Like I think this one guest had
1:02:48said to me
1:02:50that you can build your muscles just by
1:02:51laying on your back or whatever and
1:02:53not doing anything. We just didn't
1:02:54publish the episode.
1:02:55>> I can just say as a PhD that I have
1:02:58attempted that.
1:03:00Yeah, it doesn't work. And it was FOR
1:03:01JACK [ __ ]
1:03:02>> [laughter]
1:03:03>> I THINK JACK MADE A GOOD POINT. I GIVE
1:03:05YOU A PHD on the just laying still.
1:03:07Yeah.
1:03:08No, I think that I respect the approach.
1:03:11And it's
1:03:11>> one of the reasons I decided to come on.
1:03:13Cuz I respect the approach. We're not
1:03:15perfect but we're trying.
1:03:17And it's tough, you know.
1:03:18>> That's the thing that you're walking a
1:03:20path.
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1:03:23different today than it did 15 years
1:03:25ago. Back then building a brand meant
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1:03:31you can start a business with your
1:03:32laptop, an idea and the right tools and
1:03:34I would know more so than anybody else
1:03:36because that's exactly what I did.
1:03:37Shopify is one of our long-standing
1:03:39sponsors on the show and they're a brand
1:03:40I often refer people to when they're
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1:04:17On that point about me and vulnerability
1:04:20is vulnerability important? Cuz there's
1:04:22a lot of performative vulnerability
1:04:23taking place in the
1:04:25Is is it an important thing for my
1:04:26health, happiness
1:04:28my future to be a vulnerable person?
1:04:30Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability
1:04:33is the emotion we experience when we
1:04:35have when we are up against uncertainty
1:04:39risk and emotional exposure.
1:04:42So vulnerability is what I feel.
1:04:44It's the cringe.
1:04:46The awkward, the thing that I the
1:04:48emotion I feel in times of uncertainty,
1:04:51risk or emotional exposure. So it was
1:04:54really interesting because I had a hard
1:04:56time helping people understand because
1:04:59there's we are so raised to believe that
1:05:01vulnerability is weakness
1:05:03that it took a trip to Fort Bragg
1:05:05working with special forces to ask
1:05:07soldiers a question. Give me a single
1:05:10example of courage in your life. One
1:05:13example that you've witnessed or you you
1:05:15yourself have done. One example of
1:05:17courage that did not require
1:05:19uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure.
1:05:23No one could answer it. Finally a young
1:05:25soldier stood up and said three tours.
1:05:27There is no courage without
1:05:28vulnerability. So is vulnerability
1:05:31important? It is if we want to be brave
1:05:33with our lives.
1:05:34If we if we want to be able to manage
1:05:37ourselves in a way
1:05:39that's values-aligned
1:05:41and courageous, we have to be able to
1:05:44reconcile how we feel when we're
1:05:48uncertain, at risk or exposed. I mean
1:05:51and really weirdly
1:05:53the next week after the trip to Fort
1:05:54Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks,
1:05:56the football team, NFL team. Asked the
1:05:58players
1:06:00give me an example of courage on the
1:06:02field or off
1:06:03that did not require vulnerability.
1:06:05They said that it's not possible. There
1:06:07is no courage. Like if you're doing
1:06:10things in your life in your work
1:06:13and there's no risk, no uncertainty
1:06:17and no exposure, then they're not brave.
1:06:20If you know how it's going to end
1:06:23that is not courage.
1:06:26Courage is the willingness to show up
1:06:28and be all in when you cannot predict
1:06:30the outcome.
1:06:32Courage is saying I love you first.
1:06:36>> [snorts]
1:06:37>> That's you you want to know what
1:06:38vulnerability is? I love you first. Have
1:06:40you ever said I love you first?
1:06:49Uh I'm not sure. Yeah. It's been a
1:06:51while.
1:06:51>> But it's hard. It's you know.
1:06:53>> So I need to give context. It's been a
1:06:55while since I've been in that situation.
1:06:57Well, you had to go first. Yeah, we're
1:06:59not going to go first here. Yeah. I mean
1:07:00there's this great story that I tell
1:07:02about
1:07:04I I gave a talk here. It was actually in
1:07:06LA and afterwards a kid came up to me.
1:07:08He's probably 22 or 23 and he said, "Can
1:07:10I tell you a story about your work and
1:07:11how it's really changed my life?" And I
1:07:13was like, "Sure." And a kind of crowd
1:07:15grew around and this is like the last
1:07:18time I ever got penned like not being
1:07:20able to exit a stage
1:07:22because it was such a traumatic It
1:07:23wasn't traumatic but it was like he
1:07:24said, "Well, I was dating this woman
1:07:28and I was so crazy about her. So I took
1:07:31her to eat to our favorite restaurant
1:07:33and I waited until the dessert came
1:07:35because we love this chocolate volcano
1:07:37and I ordered it and I said,
1:07:40"I love you."
1:07:42And she looked at me and she said, "I
1:07:44think you're awesome.
1:07:48And I think we should date other
1:07:51people."
1:07:53And then she Ubered home.
1:07:57And so I was like, "God damn, this is
1:07:59the worst story I've ever
1:08:00>> [laughter]
1:08:01>> This is not a good story." And he said,
1:08:05"So I got in my car and I drove home and
1:08:08the whole way home
1:08:09I just kept saying to myself over and
1:08:11over, [ __ ] Brené Brown. [ __ ] Brené
1:08:14Brown."
1:08:15I'm like,
1:08:17"When does this When When's the turn on
1:08:18the story, you know?" And he said, "I
1:08:20got home and I walked into my apartment
1:08:23and I pushed the door open
1:08:25and both my roommates were wired in and
1:08:27they were on their computers and they
1:08:28looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going
1:08:30on?'"
1:08:31And he said,
1:08:32"I told her I loved her
1:08:34and she told me I was awesome."
1:08:36And one of my roommates looked at me and
1:08:38said, "What the [ __ ] were you thinking?
1:08:40That's not how it works. When you are
1:08:43going toward them, they go away. So
1:08:46you're always kind of going away so they
1:08:49come toward you." And he goes, "Oh. Oh,
1:08:52no.
1:08:54No.
1:08:55I don't want to I don't want to be that
1:08:56dude.
1:08:58I was daring greatly."
1:09:01And he said both of his roommates just
1:09:02got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man.
1:09:06Right on." Like
1:09:09there is no courage without
1:09:10vulnerability.
1:09:12How can you say you're brave
1:09:14if you're not putting yourself out
1:09:15there?
1:09:17So many people have been through things
1:09:18which have made it very, very difficult
1:09:20for them to be
1:09:22vulnerable.
1:09:23I was speaking to someone yesterday who
1:09:25was cheated on
1:09:27bunch of attachment issues in their
1:09:29early childhood. And funnily enough,
1:09:31when I was talking to her about I was
1:09:33asking her questions about cuz I'm very
1:09:35deep personal I just carries over into
1:09:37my personal life. I was asking her
1:09:38questions about the things you know
1:09:40she'd been through and whatever else.
1:09:41She just shuts down. And she told me
1:09:43that she she um
1:09:44>> [clears throat]
1:09:45>> What were the exact words? She said that
1:09:47she finds vulnerability
1:09:50to be a form of intimacy that she tries
1:09:54to stay away from because
1:09:57she needs to really really really trust
1:09:59the person before she opens up. And I
1:10:01think this is a trend you see across a
1:10:02lot of people they
1:10:03they won't open up enough to form a
1:10:05connection
1:10:06because they've been hurt before by
1:10:08opening up.
1:10:09And it feels too scary to do that. And
1:10:11that results in them being single,
1:10:14alone, unhappy,
1:10:17so on and so on.
1:10:19Yeah, I mean I think there's there what
1:10:21you said was so loaded
1:10:24with so many things. So first of all,
1:10:25there's there there there's this very
1:10:27interesting relationship between
1:10:28vulnerability and trust.
1:10:30And how does that work? And
1:10:32people always ask me what comes first,
1:10:34trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you
1:10:36first then I'm vulnerable or am I
1:10:37vulnerable first and then I trust you?
1:10:39And I think it's a very slow stacking.
1:10:41We get to know each other. I share a
1:10:43little bit. I don't I don't share Hey,
1:10:45nice to meet you Steven. Here's my
1:10:46darkest horrible most painful trauma,
1:10:50you know, cuz that that is actually
1:10:52that kind of litmus testing is actually
1:10:55a form of armor. I'm going to throw
1:10:57something at you
1:10:59that our relationship in no way has been
1:11:01built long enough to hold. You're going
1:11:03to go away and I'm going to use that as
1:11:06verification that vulnerability is
1:11:07dangerous. Like That's litmus testing.
1:11:10Mhm. Let me prove to you
1:11:12that you're not trustworthy. Na na na na
1:11:14na na na Oh, I see you're backing away.
1:11:17That's what I thought.
1:11:18I'm backing away because we haven't
1:11:19built a relationship that can bear the
1:11:21weight of this story.
1:11:23Can we start Can we start small? Okay.
1:11:26Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability,
1:11:28trust, vulnerability, trust.
1:11:30Mhm.
1:11:31>> [clears throat]
1:11:31>> I think
1:11:33I get in that in my work we call that
1:11:34like the smash and grab. Like I'm going
1:11:37to I'm going to hit you with something
1:11:38really big and then watch you go away
1:11:40and use it as evidence.
1:11:43Mhm. Yeah.
1:11:44And it takes a really skilled person to
1:11:46say
1:11:47yeah, I'm really
1:11:50I'm taking in what you told me. I want
1:11:51to be respectful and honor that.
1:11:53And
1:11:55I don't have a way to file it right now
1:11:56cuz I don't know you well enough.
1:11:59So I appreciate the share I mean we also
1:12:01call it spotlighting. So like if I had a
1:12:03military grade spotlight that they use
1:12:05in the wilderness. I work with the
1:12:06military a lot. And I I picked it up and
1:12:10put it in your face right here. What
1:12:12would you do physically? Uh
1:12:14That's what that's our reaction to too
1:12:15much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like
1:12:18yeah, I don't know I don't know you.
1:12:20Yeah. Um
1:12:21So you're talking about the slow
1:12:23stacking of courage and of vulnerability
1:12:25and trust. And then you're also talking
1:12:26about that when
1:12:29>> [clears throat]
1:12:30>> when we've had a lot of hard things
1:12:32happen to us,
1:12:33I think this is where I really believe
1:12:35in the democratization of coaching and
1:12:37therapy that a lot of times we have to
1:12:40work with people. Like we have to get
1:12:42help
1:12:43to be able to open up and take off some
1:12:45of the armor that we put on because
1:12:47sometimes that armor
1:12:49that we put on is freaking survival.
1:12:53I mean and you want to start adding you
1:12:55want to start adding variables like
1:12:56race,
1:12:58gender,
1:12:59like you know,
1:13:01any anything where there's social
1:13:04systems also at play. That's survival.
1:13:06Like telling me right now at my career
1:13:10like hey, you should be vulnerable with
1:13:12your new team. And and talk about your
1:13:14previous failures, you know. Well, of
1:13:16course I could do that and I would do it
1:13:18and everybody would clap and they'd
1:13:19think man, she's so brave. And take the
1:13:21new person who's a young black woman or
1:13:24the new first LGBTQ person on a team and
1:13:26say hey, tell tell every Don't tell
1:13:28anybody [ __ ]
1:13:31Develop trust first.
1:13:34Develop uh see how how trust your own
1:13:37instincts about the accountability of
1:13:39this group to hold themselves
1:13:40accountable for their behavior. Like
1:13:43vulnerability
1:13:44is not more necessary for any of us than
1:13:47anybody else, but certainly more
1:13:49difficult for other for for some people
1:13:51for sure.
1:13:52And I think
1:13:54what's hard about that, what's so
1:13:56painful, probably the most painful part
1:13:58of my career
1:13:59is that
1:14:01regardless of why the armor is on,
1:14:04without vulnerability you cannot access
1:14:09the experiences that are the most
1:14:11meaningful in life.
1:14:12Love.
1:14:14To love someone is to be vulnerable from
1:14:16the time you wake up to the time you go
1:14:17to bed. You know that, you're in a
1:14:18relationship. To love is to be
1:14:20vulnerable, right?
1:14:21>> Mhm.
1:14:21>> [clears throat]
1:14:22>> And have you ever buried someone you
1:14:23loved?
1:14:25Like I lost my mom 2 years ago. Like
1:14:27my kids it's like having your heart live
1:14:29outside of your body. Like to love is to
1:14:32be vulnerable cuz it's to risk grief and
1:14:34losing.
1:14:35Belonging is vulnerable. The most The
1:14:38most vulnerable human emotion?
1:14:41Joy.
1:14:43Joy is so vulnerable
1:14:45that when some of us get close to it, we
1:14:48dress rehearse tragedy
1:14:51to prepare for disappointment.
1:14:54Like it's so vulnerable that we don't
1:14:56even let ourselves feel joy because
1:14:59we're so afraid someone's going to rip
1:15:00it away and we're going to get sucker
1:15:01punched by disappointment.
1:15:04Yes or no? Like people choose to live
1:15:07disappointed
1:15:09rather than to feel disappoint risk
1:15:11feeling disappointed and get excited
1:15:12about something.
1:15:14You know, it's like the first time my
1:15:15kids shared with me when they were
1:15:17young,
1:15:18certainly not the way I was raised, but
1:15:20you know, I I really really want to make
1:15:22this team, Mom.
1:15:24And I said
1:15:25I want to pause you for a second
1:15:27and tell you how brave it is
1:15:30to talk openly about something you want
1:15:32so much when you don't have control over
1:15:34whether you get it or not.
1:15:36I want I want it for you because you
1:15:38want it, but regardless of what happens,
1:15:40I admire your courage for wanting
1:15:42something and sharing out loud that you
1:15:45want it.
1:15:46Because if you don't get it, I'll know
1:15:48that it was a crushing blow.
1:15:51But that's so great because I'll be here
1:15:53for you when that happens either way.
1:15:56So we And I And I'm really I'm a really
1:16:00I'm I we call it foreboding joy.
1:16:02That joy is so good
1:16:04we're just waiting for the other shoe to
1:16:05drop. And people who have trauma
1:16:07histories are really like that. Like for
1:16:09me
1:16:11cuz of the way I was raised,
1:16:14when something good happens, I'm like oh
1:16:15god, now what's going to happen?
1:16:17Statistically, bad shit's going to roll
1:16:19around any second now.
1:16:21And it's interesting cuz the group of
1:16:23people that we researched, the only
1:16:25group of people
1:16:26that could take that You know, there's a
1:16:28bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability.
1:16:30Do you have you felt it?
1:16:31>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:16:32The only people that can really lean
1:16:35into joy consistently are people who use
1:16:38that vulnerability quiver
1:16:41as a reminder to be grateful.
1:16:44To be able to practice gratitude in that
1:16:46second. So gratitude is a huge
1:16:50enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can
1:16:53one train that?
1:16:54>> No, it's a training. Oh [ __ ] no I had
1:16:55to
1:16:56I mean
1:16:58standing at my front door
1:17:00watching
1:17:02my 16-year-old daughter walk down the
1:17:05sidewalk with her boyfriend in high
1:17:06school and get in his truck for for
1:17:08prom, right?
1:17:10And I'm standing there and I'm like
1:17:13oh god.
1:17:15And you know, what am I worried about?
1:17:16You know, prom night.
1:17:18Like car wreck, right?
1:17:20Of course like I when I tell the story
1:17:21the military's always like pregnancy.
1:17:22I'm like no no no no no, car wreck. And
1:17:25so I just remember staying there and she
1:17:26gets in and and I'm staying next to
1:17:29Steve and Charlie
1:17:31my my son's, you know, at this time he's
1:17:3310. And I'm like I'm so grateful. I'm so
1:17:36grateful. I'm grateful for this moment.
1:17:37I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm
1:17:39grateful that they did the corsage and
1:17:41the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful
1:17:43that I got to help pick out the dress.
1:17:44I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes
1:17:48looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom?
1:17:50Um and Steve goes, she's she's
1:17:52practicing gratitude. Let her do it
1:17:54otherwise she's going to be on a crazy
1:17:55train. It's going to be all hell and you
1:17:57know, like cuz part of me wants to say
1:17:59oh god.
1:18:00Oh god.
1:18:02Like so beautiful and so joyful.
1:18:04And get in your truck and follow them
1:18:06right now. If he's speeding, I want to
1:18:08know about it. If he's not stopping
1:18:09fully to stop sign, follow them until
1:18:11this date is over. You know, that's
1:18:13that's what I want to do.
1:18:15Cuz I'm afraid.
1:18:17Cuz that that joy of that moment was
1:18:19just too much for me.
1:18:22Too vulnerable. It appears you've
1:18:24overcome
1:18:26various traits of old
1:18:28Rene Brown.
1:18:30No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm
1:18:32not over I I not overcome. Have you
1:18:33overcome anything?
1:18:36Yes, a belief that I will overcome
1:18:37anything. I've overcome the belief that
1:18:41I have overcome the belief that
1:18:47I will ever arrive.
1:18:49I am grateful for the skills that I have
1:18:52that are new skills that keep me more
1:18:55aligned with the person, the mom, the
1:18:56partner, the leader that I want to be.
1:18:59But I
1:19:00I
1:19:02am
1:19:03mindful of all the I try to stay very
1:19:05mindful that I am scary when I'm scared.
1:19:09That I catastrophize very very easily
1:19:12and that's painful for everybody around
1:19:13me.
1:19:14And I don't need to be liked. I just
1:19:16need to be myself. Like But those are
1:19:18things
1:19:20cuz I will I will sit down like 2 days
1:19:22ago and like, "Oh my god, it'd be so
1:19:23freaking easy to be liked here."
1:19:26I was like, "This will be This would be
1:19:27a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit, I
1:19:29don't do that anymore. Bummer."
1:19:312 days ago? Yeah. Out of what?
1:19:34Just with a group of people that I knew
1:19:35what it would take to be liked.
1:19:37And you made the choice to
1:19:39>> Just to be myself.
1:19:40>> Yeah.
1:19:41Why?
1:19:43Because now the person I'm going to
1:19:44betray
1:19:46last is me.
1:19:50Yeah, I hope I see you again, but
1:19:52not that important.
1:19:54Some people might find that somewhat
1:19:56demoralizing to know that they they too
1:19:58might never cure
1:20:01parts of themselves that they're
1:20:02desperate to change. I think people, you
1:20:04know, they often come to podcasts like
1:20:05this or read books like yours looking
1:20:07for solutions fixes
1:20:10to not liking myself, to the way that I
1:20:12react to my emotions. They want to fix
1:20:14it.
1:20:15Cuz if they can fix it, then they can be
1:20:17happy. I don't think that's in the
1:20:18consideration set.
1:20:20For a very
1:20:23beautiful reason.
1:20:25>> [clears throat]
1:20:27>> That if we could fix it
1:20:30and never have to wrestle with it again
1:20:34we would be so short on grace
1:20:37for other people.
1:20:39That we would be
1:20:42tyrants.
1:20:45So, you think it it creates a form of
1:20:46empathy for others? Yeah. I mean, like
1:20:49I'm not going to I have like really
1:20:51serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary
1:20:52person. But when I see someone behaving
1:20:55a certain way, I was like, "Uh, my
1:20:57[ __ ] sees
1:20:59your inner [ __ ] right here. I get I
1:21:00get it I get what you're doing. I'm not
1:21:01going to tolerate it. I'm going to set a
1:21:03boundary around it.
1:21:05But I'm not really judging you for it.
1:21:06It's just that behavior's not okay right
1:21:08here." But you like yourself now?
1:21:16Yeah.
1:21:17Yeah.
1:21:18I do.
1:21:19I I
1:21:25Yeah, I do.
1:21:28I do.
1:21:29I can I can
1:21:31I can I think I can say that pretty
1:21:34I like what I'm becoming.
1:21:36And for anyone that doesn't like
1:21:37themselves, what what work has had to go
1:21:39into getting to the point where you like
1:21:40what you you're becoming?
1:21:51I think the hardest is
1:21:55maybe one of the biggest findings of my
1:21:56research over the last 25 years is it's
1:22:00not
1:22:01fear that gets in the way of us being
1:22:03brave with our lives and our work.
1:22:06It's armor.
1:22:08Everybody's afraid.
1:22:09It's okay to be afraid.
1:22:11What's dangerous is the armor that we
1:22:13reach for to self-protect when we're
1:22:15afraid.
1:22:16And how that armor moves us
1:22:19away from
1:22:21love, connection
1:22:23and our values. And so,
1:22:26I think the hardest work is
1:22:30for me
1:22:31constantly being aware of what is my
1:22:34armor. What am I What am I grabbing for
1:22:36when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for
1:22:39when I want to protect my sense of
1:22:40self-worth, my ego? Like and and how
1:22:44heavy that [ __ ] is.
1:22:47You know, at some point I had to wear
1:22:49it.
1:22:50Because that was survival for me growing
1:22:53up.
1:22:54But this is the big This is the big
1:23:00developmental milestone
1:23:03of middle age, which you are squarely in
1:23:05train.
1:23:06Which is kind of when the universe grabs
1:23:09you by the shoulders and pulls you
1:23:11really close
1:23:13and says
1:23:14"I'm not [ __ ] around anymore.
1:23:17I gave you gifts.
1:23:19Choosing not to grow into them is not
1:23:22benign.
1:23:25There's a consequence for that. And your
1:23:27armor is getting in the way.
1:23:30You're grown-ass person now.
1:23:33You have different choices.
1:23:35Let go of what doesn't serve."
1:23:40And that is the big milestone, I think,
1:23:42that we have to wrestle with in midlife.
1:23:46What no longer serves that's preventing
1:23:49us from growing into who we want to be.
1:23:52And is that where vulnerability comes
1:23:53into the picture? Oh, for sure. Cuz all
1:23:55the armor
1:23:56all the armor
1:23:58is about vulnerability.
1:24:01It requires a huge amount of um I was
1:24:03going to say self-awareness.
1:24:05Yes.
1:24:06>> That some people just don't could
1:24:07probably never accomplish. I mean
1:24:12That's why I think metaphor is helpful.
1:24:16I mean
1:24:17most of us can understand
1:24:19if you back me into an emotional corner
1:24:23what are you going to get?
1:24:25Like as a leader, I know my armor,
1:24:27perfectionism, micromanagement. I get
1:24:29super intensive. I get recklessly
1:24:31decisive.
1:24:34I know my armor.
1:24:35And my team knows my armor.
1:24:39I think
1:24:41my armor in my personal life, especially
1:24:43when it comes to my kids, when I get
1:24:46when I feel vulnerable
1:24:48is control, control, control.
1:24:52Take over all the chess pieces.
1:24:55But that's
1:24:57not a good idea.
1:24:58It's not possible. Hm. It's just It's
1:25:01just pretend. That's called anxiety.
1:25:04Like pretending that you can control the
1:25:05chessboard of other people's lives, let
1:25:07alone your own, much less other people's
1:25:09lives. But I think I do it out of
1:25:14fear.
1:25:18Is fear the opposite of
1:25:21courage? Or is it?
1:25:22No, I think the opposite of courage is
1:25:24armor.
1:25:25Armor, okay. I think the opposite of
1:25:27courage is self-protection.
1:25:30To be courageous in this context,
1:25:31whether it's as a leader or in another
1:25:33environment, you talk about these four
1:25:35steps to courage. You talk about it in
1:25:36Strong Ground.
1:25:38Yeah.
1:25:39This was research that emerged like 15
1:25:40years ago, and I was really really
1:25:43nervous cuz I'm a grounded theory
1:25:44researcher. I'm a qualitative
1:25:45researcher. So, a grounded theory is
1:25:48only as good as its ability to work new
1:25:50data. So, you develop a hypothesis or a
1:25:52theory based on data. And then as you
1:25:55collect more data, does the hypothesis
1:25:58hold? And, you know, this we collected
1:26:01that data pre-pandemic.
1:26:03You know,
1:26:05pre pre a lot of things. And so, I was
1:26:09really worried about the four skill sets
1:26:10of courage, which are
1:26:13identifying and understanding your core
1:26:15values.
1:26:17I would love to do this exercise with
1:26:18you sometime.
1:26:19Um two,
1:26:21understanding what gets in the way of
1:26:23you wrestling with vulnerability, kind
1:26:25of owning it and moving through it
1:26:27constructively.
1:26:28Three, how to build trust and how to
1:26:30become super important trustworthy to
1:26:33yourself. Self-trust.
1:26:36Because one of the first casualties of
1:26:38failure or disappointment or setback is
1:26:42we lose
1:26:43our our ability to trust ourselves.
1:26:46Our ability to make good decisions. Our
1:26:48ability to take care of ourselves. And
1:26:49the last one, which is my favorite
1:26:52because [snorts]
1:26:53it can really I've seen it really change
1:26:54an organization is
1:26:56how to get back up after failure and
1:26:58disappointment. How to reset. How to be
1:27:02how to manage your own bounce when hard
1:27:04[ __ ] happens.
1:27:07So, those are the four skill sets of
1:27:08courage. Again,
1:27:10evidence-based
1:27:12observable, measurable, and teachable.
1:27:14We've taken 165,000
1:27:17people through this work across 45
1:27:19countries.
1:27:21Collected data on all of it. It's so
1:27:23exciting. And it withstood all of the
1:27:26complex changes over the last 5 years,
1:27:30including AI.
1:27:32Organizational because this is where we
1:27:33do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist
1:27:34or clinician. I don't work with like
1:27:36families or individuals. I mean, I have
1:27:37a therapist, but I'm not one.
1:27:39Um so, I think
1:27:43you can develop skirt courage skills.
1:27:46The the third point is braving trust.
1:27:48Yeah. And I've heard about your marble
1:27:50jar theory. So, I've got a jar of
1:27:51marbles.
1:27:52>> that. Um could you explain to me what
1:27:54your marble jar You look at how excited
1:27:56you are. I know.
1:27:58Um so, this comes You know, where where
1:28:00is where where do I get my information?
1:28:02Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She
1:28:04comes home from school. Mhm. The front
1:28:06[clears throat] door closes. She slides
1:28:08down the door into a heap sobbing.
1:28:11I'm like, "God, Ellen, are you okay? Are
1:28:12you hurt? What's going on?" She says
1:28:15that
1:28:17something hard happened.
1:28:19She shared it like very confidentially
1:28:21with one or two of her friends during
1:28:22recess.
1:28:23When she got back to the classroom
1:28:26they had told everybody in her class,
1:28:27all 30 kids.
1:28:29Everybody was laughing and pointing and
1:28:31making fun of her.
1:28:33And she said, "I will never trust anyone
1:28:35again."
1:28:37And my response immediately to my in my
1:28:39mind was, "Damn straight. Not [ __ ]
1:28:42person. You trust your mama, and that's
1:28:44it." Like that was my response. But
1:28:46again,
1:28:47that's not the right thing to do, right?
1:28:50You want a kid who can develop trust
1:28:51with others. So, I said, "Trust is
1:28:54really hard." She said, "I don't
1:28:55understand it."
1:28:57And her teacher at the time, Mrs.
1:28:58Bockum, had a mar- a marble jar.
1:29:01And when the team when the when the
1:29:04class would collectively make good
1:29:05decisions, she would put marbles in this
1:29:07empty jar. And when it got full, they'd
1:29:09have an extra recess and party. Mhm.
1:29:12And [clears throat] so, immediately what
1:29:13came to me, cuz I'm describing trust,
1:29:15which is a hard concept to a fourth
1:29:17grader. I said, "Trust is the marble
1:29:19jar."
1:29:20She's like, "What do you mean?" And I
1:29:21said,
1:29:23"Every time you share somebody something
1:29:24with someone that's confidential and
1:29:26they don't share it, they get a marble.
1:29:28Every time you build trust,
1:29:30when you want to share something really
1:29:32private and personal, you look for a
1:29:34friend whose jar is full of marbles."
1:29:37"Do you have any marble jar friends?"
1:29:39She's like, "Not the ones I shared with
1:29:41today." And I said, "Who are your marble
1:29:42jar friends?" And she said, "Hannah and
1:29:44Lorna." And I said, "Tell me something
1:29:46they do to earn marbles." "Oh, well,
1:29:48like if I get to my tray late at lunch
1:29:51and there's no place to sit, Lorna will
1:29:53scoot over and give me half her seat and
1:29:54then we just share one seat and I can
1:29:56sit at the table. And then the other day
1:29:59when I had strep throat, Hannah was
1:30:01worried about me. So remember her mom
1:30:03called and said, 'Hannah's worried about
1:30:04Ellen, why wasn't she at school?' But
1:30:06then the biggest thing that Hannah did
1:30:07was the other day,
1:30:09Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her
1:30:11her husband, came to my soccer game and
1:30:13Hannah looked over and goes, 'Oh my god,
1:30:16your Oma and Opa are here.' And I said,
1:30:20'Why was that a big deal?' And she goes,
1:30:21'Because everybody's divorced and
1:30:22remarried and I've got eight
1:30:24Yeah, four sets of people and she
1:30:26remembered their names.'
1:30:27And what was shocking to me is that
1:30:29Ellen was conveying
1:30:32that these marbles
1:30:34were being earned on these very small
1:30:37She knew my grandparents' name. She gave
1:30:40me a seat to sit at. She checked on me
1:30:42when I was missing school.
1:30:44And so
1:30:46it made me start thinking about the
1:30:47literature on trust. So I immediately go
1:30:49to the Gottmans. Have you had the
1:30:51Gottmans on here?
1:30:51>> Oh, twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean just like
1:30:53yeah. So I go to the Gottmans' research
1:30:56on trust and I read right off the bat
1:30:59where Gottmans say, "Trust is earned in
1:31:02small moments every day." He tells a
1:31:05story. It's my favorite story that he
1:31:07tells and I've had them on my podcast
1:31:08and I've
1:31:09done blurbs for their books and written
1:31:11forwards. They're just great. So he
1:31:12tells a story about how he's also a
1:31:14mystery lover like me. He's on the
1:31:16second to last page of his mystery.
1:31:18He's like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Who
1:31:20did it?" And he jumps up to go brush his
1:31:22teeth and he gets gets walks to the
1:31:24bathroom and he sees his wife crying and
1:31:28brushing her hair. He's like, "Shit.
1:31:30Don't look. Everything's good. Just go
1:31:32to the bathroom and get back in your get
1:31:34get back to your book." And he's like,
1:31:36"That's a sliding door moment.
1:31:39I can I have a choice in that moment
1:31:42to build trust and stop and say, 'What's
1:31:44going on?'
1:31:45or to build betrayal and pretend like I
1:31:47don't see her hurting."
1:31:49"So I stop. I take the brush out of her
1:31:51hand.
1:31:52I start brushing her hair and say,
1:31:54'What's going on?'"
1:31:57That's a sliding door moment that we
1:31:58have all the time, right? And so to me,
1:32:02trust is built slowly over time, a
1:32:05marble at a time.
1:32:07And that's how That's how we teach trust
1:32:10to the most senior leaders in Fortune
1:32:12100 companies.
1:32:14The trust is the marble jar. It's
1:32:15earned.
1:32:17Leaders believe
1:32:18and you're a leader, so you know you
1:32:20know the temptation.
1:32:21Leaders believe that in the middle of a
1:32:24crisis,
1:32:26you know,
1:32:27you put the numbers together and there's
1:32:29a fever dream in the United States and
1:32:30there's new tariffs and you wake up and
1:32:32you know, you're you're you've got a
1:32:33revenue line that's in crisis and then
1:32:35you can just look at your people and
1:32:37say,
1:32:38"Hello everyone." This is like back to
1:32:39the the uh executive presence. "Trust
1:32:42me. Here's what we're going to do." And
1:32:44it means nothing to people. What matters
1:32:47is a leader that walks past you in the
1:32:48morning and says, "Hey, good to see
1:32:50Steven. How's your mom's chemo going?"
1:32:55Marbles.
1:32:56Marbles. Then when the crisis happens,
1:32:58you don't need to say, "Trust me."
1:33:00You just need to say what's on your
1:33:01mind. They trust you.
1:33:04The other thing I think uh
1:33:06is often plagued my mind is as a leader,
1:33:08sometimes you say things and those
1:33:09things can't happen for whatever reason,
1:33:10things change.
1:33:11>> Right. And um
1:33:14And I think leaders sometimes think that
1:33:16trust is always being correct, always
1:33:18predicting everything correctly, always
1:33:20being right.
1:33:22No.
1:33:23Trust is
1:33:25Man, I think we had nailed this.
1:33:28I thought
1:33:30this was how this was going to happen.
1:33:32We were wrong. You've been
1:33:34[clears throat] working your asses off
1:33:35for 6 months on this
1:33:37and I've got to deprioritize it today
1:33:38standing right here in front of you.
1:33:40But I'm not going to [ __ ] you.
1:33:42You've been working your ass off on a
1:33:43priority
1:33:44that literally does not exist today.
1:33:47Hm.
1:33:48I want to stop and say thank you.
1:33:50I saw what you were doing.
1:33:53I want to be completely transparent
1:33:54about why the priority has shifted.
1:33:56And then I'm going to ask you for the
1:33:58same level of work on the new priority.
1:34:02Yes or no?
1:34:03Yeah, and then the blame and
1:34:05responsibility often rear their heads.
1:34:07That's right.
1:34:07>> For for better or for worse.
1:34:08>> Go like this. My eyelash or something. I
1:34:10know. One marble. There you go. Oh.
1:34:13Yeah, [laughter] is that a marble? Yeah,
1:34:14that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you didn't have
1:34:16to say that, you know.
1:34:17I think that sometimes people say you've
1:34:19got some [ __ ] on your shirt. I'm like,
1:34:20that's thank you so much because it
1:34:21would have been much
1:34:23easier for you not to point out the
1:34:25boogie on my face or whatever, you know
1:34:26what I mean? I don't trust somebody that
1:34:27doesn't do that. So I guess it is
1:34:29[clears throat] a marble.
1:34:31Hm.
1:34:33Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago
1:34:34on the podcast, they said, "I trust
1:34:35people who say things in public that is
1:34:37against their near-term interests." And
1:34:38I thought, "Hm." Oh.
1:34:40Oh, I That's [laughter] good.
1:34:44That's That's like a That's like a
1:34:47That's a
1:34:50Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good metaphor
1:34:53though, right? Mhm. Mhm. The trust in
1:34:55the [clears throat] marble jar has been
1:34:56very helpful for us. Mhm. And let me
1:34:58tell you, there are behaviors
1:35:00This is plastic.
1:35:02There are behaviors in relationships
1:35:04where you take this whole thing and just
1:35:06slam it on the ground. Cheating.
1:35:08I think that's an obvious one.
1:35:17There's one that's more has a more
1:35:20ragged edge of grief and distress than
1:35:22even cheating,
1:35:24which is just slowly disengaging.
1:35:32Emotionally disengaging.
1:35:33>> Yeah. Mhm.
1:35:37Yeah, gosh. That's a ragged That's a
1:35:40ragged-edged break on that marble jar
1:35:42and it just happens over time and every
1:35:45Yeah, the the other people think that
1:35:46they're nuts and it makes them question
1:35:48their own judgment.
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1:36:01month you're buried in them. Pressure
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1:37:56/ Steven.
1:37:58You have been in a relationship much
1:37:59longer than me, but we share a lot of
1:38:01similarities in many ways. I was
1:38:02wondering if um
1:38:03if you were to give me
1:38:05any relationship advice that might hold
1:38:07my [ __ ] together Mhm. over the next 30
1:38:10years.
1:38:12I mean, you could give me so much, I
1:38:13know, cuz I've seen I've seen so much of
1:38:15your incredible I've actually stolen so
1:38:16much advice. One of the things I stole
1:38:18recently, which me and my girlfriend
1:38:19talked about, was
1:38:20sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like
1:38:2210% and I heard you say this.
1:38:23>> Oh, yeah. And I just I don't communicate
1:38:25to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got
1:38:26like 10% left.
1:38:28>> Yeah. And then she you know, she might
1:38:29want to try and work through some [ __ ]
1:38:30Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
1:38:31yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:38:32It's going to go bad. Yeah, it's going
1:38:33to go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at
1:38:351:00 a.m. No.
1:38:36>> [clears throat]
1:38:37>> And I saw you talk about how you
1:38:38communicate, you vocalize what you have
1:38:40left in the tank to give context to the
1:38:42person. I guess it's to create some
1:38:43empathy for both of you, but I've stolen
1:38:45that. But is there anything else that um
1:38:47you think might help me over the next 30
1:38:48years to have a good relationship with
1:38:51my girlfriend with all the risks that
1:38:53you see? I'll just start by saying I
1:38:54think therapy,
1:38:57couples work, is like so incredibly
1:39:00powerful and helpful. I think the
1:39:02Gottmans' work
1:39:04is really like we read the Gottmans'
1:39:06work together sometimes. I think I think
1:39:08that's helpful. I'm surprised you were
1:39:11willing
1:39:12as someone that struggles with
1:39:13vulnerability. Oh, yeah. No, for sure.
1:39:16Well, you you weren't No, I was willing.
1:39:18Oh, really? Okay.
1:39:18>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I struggle with
1:39:21vulnerability, but I really respect
1:39:24humility in people so much that even if
1:39:26I'm not feeling humility, I will fake
1:39:29humility and be like, I need help. And
1:39:32then I'll say, [ __ ] this is real. This
1:39:34is hard. This is They say, got my
1:39:35number? Like, how
1:39:36>> [laughter]
1:39:37>> I damn. Hey, they just call the thing a
1:39:39thing. They hurt my feelers. Um but I I
1:39:43guess the biggest thing is that not
1:39:45neither Stephen I nor I had
1:39:48any modeling of what a healthy
1:39:50relationship looked like
1:39:52at all.
1:39:55And
1:39:57I think one commitment we made is to
1:40:00just
1:40:01keep showing up. I think these are the
1:40:03three commitments. Keep showing up.
1:40:06Don't buy into the [ __ ] that it's
1:40:08supposed to be easy. It'll be the
1:40:09hardest thing you'll ever do. And ask
1:40:11for help.
1:40:13And that's not There's no
1:40:15I wish I could give you like a Here's
1:40:17the secret to it. But the secret to us
1:40:19is we keep showing up.
1:40:22We know it's not supposed to be easy.
1:40:25And we get help.
1:40:26And the help being
1:40:28you turn to him and ask for help or
1:40:30external
1:40:30>> Well, we Well, we get external help, but
1:40:32we read. We try new things.
1:40:35Um
1:40:38we try new tools.
1:40:39We just
1:40:40we don't ever want to be done learning
1:40:42and trying to be better for ourselves
1:40:44and for each other.
1:40:47And that's a lot. I mean, 38 years
1:40:49together
1:40:51is
1:40:54not just like the slow roll movie
1:40:58of a life and a family,
1:41:01but we've
1:41:02buried parents.
1:41:04You know, we've gone through illnesses.
1:41:08We've
1:41:10raised, you know, kids. We've
1:41:14We've gone through different seasons in
1:41:16our own lives where we were not synced
1:41:18at all.
1:41:19It's really, really hard.
1:41:21But it's I'm more proud of it than
1:41:24anything I've ever done.
1:41:26Cuz my setup for success was zero.
1:41:29You've buried parents.
1:41:31Yeah. Christmas day?
1:41:33My mom died on Christmas day after my
1:41:34sisters and I were there at her primary
1:41:36caregiver for 4 years with dementia. 4
1:41:38years.
1:41:44I wouldn't wish that [ __ ] on the people
1:41:47I hate the most.
1:41:49I know I try not to hate people, but I
1:41:52God gives me grace for it on occasion.
1:41:54But um
1:41:56I would not wish that on anybody.
1:41:59You know, there's the reality of it, you
1:42:01know, she gets there, there's an
1:42:02accident. You're showering your mom.
1:42:03You're bathing your mom. Mhm. You know,
1:42:05and
1:42:08she knows just enough
1:42:10to be humiliated by it.
1:42:13Mhm.
1:42:14But this is life. Like this is This is
1:42:17caregiving.
1:42:18You know?
1:42:19And it's a
1:42:21tremendous emotional, physical, mental
1:42:26weight that falls primarily on women who
1:42:29are also in the workforce.
1:42:32You know, thank God I had two sisters,
1:42:33so there's three of us.
1:42:35Um but
1:42:37and many people have very Many people
1:42:39have zero. It's like you and your PhD
1:42:42research PhD researcher. I have
1:42:45resources.
1:42:47A lot of resources.
1:42:49And I think it almost killed me. You
1:42:51know, and so
1:42:53It almost killed you. I mean, yeah, it
1:42:55it
1:42:58to lose someone that you love like I
1:43:00love my mom in bits and pieces
1:43:04in chips and bones in, you know, like
1:43:07that is
1:43:09you know, and then
1:43:11there was a day when she just got
1:43:12incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my
1:43:16mom was the fulcrum.
1:43:20Our family changed on her back. Like she
1:43:23was the first person to go to therapy.
1:43:25She left my dad.
1:43:27She got us into therapy. She worked
1:43:29three jobs. She She changed everything.
1:43:33She talked about the long history of
1:43:34addiction in our family, you know, on
1:43:37both sides, everywhere. She changed our
1:43:39family. And so to say she was like, you
1:43:42know, somebody who I respected and
1:43:45revered like was is an understatement.
1:43:48And you know,
1:43:51and we did so much healing work
1:43:53around
1:43:55kind of how she showed up as a parent in
1:43:58her marriage with my dad. And so then
1:44:01the one day I went to go take care of
1:44:02her and I saw that thing that hadn't
1:44:04seen since I was 14, you know, and I'm
1:44:0654.
1:44:08You know, and it literally like I
1:44:10couldn't drive. Like it brought me
1:44:12physically to my knees.
1:44:14Like Like my husband had to come and get
1:44:16me.
1:44:18And I don't like
1:44:22I can't I can't talk about it without
1:44:23getting emotional cuz it's not like I
1:44:24blamed my mom cuz she's in the middle of
1:44:26this disease, you know? But it was like
1:44:29I
1:44:30I didn't see her for 2 months after
1:44:32that.
1:44:34And Steve kept saying, I I said, I
1:44:35can't. And he's like, you got to you got
1:44:37to heal from that. I mean, just imagine
1:44:40being dropped back in
1:44:42a worst-case scenario situation when you
1:44:43were 13 or 14.
1:44:45And then, you know, you're just like,
1:44:47I can't I can't.
1:44:49And, you know, my sisters were like,
1:44:51I got We got We got this.
1:44:53And then they'd go through a period
1:44:54where they were like, I can't right now.
1:44:57And then I Okay, I got it. But Steve
1:44:59always had it.
1:45:04Steve was like, I got the diaper.
1:45:06I'll take him to dinner.
1:45:08I'll meet with the doctors. Like, that's
1:45:10partnership.
1:45:12You know what I mean? That's
1:45:12partnership.
1:45:14How did you How did you deal with the
1:45:15grief?
1:45:17Well,
1:45:19don't send me your hate mail, [ __ ]
1:45:21but you know, when she died, it was
1:45:23nothing but relief.
1:45:25I've heard this I've never not heard
1:45:26that from someone that had a parent with
1:45:29struggling with dementia. Absolutely.
1:45:30>> It was complete relief. I mean, the day
1:45:32before she died, I think we had a really
1:45:33important time with her.
1:45:35And
1:45:37I'm sure she is, you know,
1:45:39playing dominoes with Ann Richards and
1:45:41Molly Ivins and great other female Texas
1:45:43politicians. Um
1:45:46Democrats. But um cuz my mom was very
1:45:48radically political, but
1:45:50uh
1:45:57the window of grief was just years of
1:46:02There There was, you know,
1:46:03very early on there was no calling her
1:46:05to say, oh, Charlie got a really cute
1:46:07date. Let me show you the homecoming
1:46:08pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got
1:46:10into her master's program. That that all
1:46:12just went away. Just every
1:46:15week.
1:46:18And so
1:46:20that's why, you know, the whole the
1:46:23whole Strong Ground book, there's a
1:46:25there's a sentence in the in the first
1:46:26chapter that said, I have a sticky note
1:46:29on my window on my mirror in the
1:46:31bathroom that says, I'd rather be the
1:46:33oldest woman in the gym than the
1:46:35youngest woman in assisted living. Mhm.
1:46:37Because
1:46:39I do believe in the connection around
1:46:41exercise, you know, dementia. And I I
1:46:44took care of my grandmother with
1:46:46dementia with my mom.
1:46:50And my mom and my grandmother made a lot
1:46:52of different lifestyle choices than I've
1:46:54made, but
1:46:56the whole Strong Ground metaphor is that
1:46:59I went to go see a trainer.
1:47:02And one day he looked at me and he said,
1:47:05he called me Brown. He said, find the
1:47:08ground, Brown.
1:47:09And I looked down and I said, okay. And
1:47:10he goes, not the floor, the ground. Take
1:47:12your feet,
1:47:14push in to the ground. Use your mind to
1:47:16connect with your body. Push into the
1:47:19ground and then tell your mind you're
1:47:21going to be using [ __ ] lats.
1:47:23And I was like, okay. So I did it
1:47:27and I felt them.
1:47:29And I started whispering every time I
1:47:31would do a weightlifting thing, strong
1:47:33ground, strong ground.
1:47:36Strong ground. An unbelievable
1:47:38unbelievable book. So if we we didn't
1:47:40cover everything in this book today,
1:47:42which is a great shame, but hopefully
1:47:44we'll speak again in the future. But
1:47:45it's the lessons of daring leadership,
1:47:46the tenacity of of paradox, which is
1:47:48something I was keen to talk about, and
1:47:49the wisdom of the human spirit. All of
1:47:52your books are amazing. You said it
1:47:53earlier on that someone called you a
1:47:54wizard when you were younger. That's
1:47:55exactly what I think you are.
1:47:57I think you're a wizard.
1:47:59Why? I think you're a wizard. You have a
1:48:00unbelievable pattern recognition,
1:48:02understanding of humans. You have so
1:48:04many wide reference points that it
1:48:05appears to be magic to a muggle like me.
1:48:08We're out I had a time in the team and
1:48:10we're going to run through the door if
1:48:10I'm not careful.
1:48:12But we have a closing tradition on this
1:48:13podcast where the last guest leaves a
1:48:14question for the next guest, not knowing
1:48:15who they're leaving it for. You actually
1:48:16know this person. Is you? I know the
1:48:18next guest? No, you know the one that
1:48:19left the question for you. Oh, got it.
1:48:20But they didn't know it was for you.
1:48:22Dear beautiful and highly intelligent
1:48:25next guest,
1:48:26what are you optimizing for right now?
1:48:35Strength and longevity.
1:48:38Mentally, physically, spiritually, and
1:48:40emotionally.
1:48:42Strong ground.
1:48:45The lesson The lessons of daring
1:48:46leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and
1:48:48the wisdom of the human spirit. You are
1:48:52You are
1:48:53I was trying to think if there was any
1:48:54others. You are the single most
1:48:56requested guest um and you have been on
1:48:58the show for for a long, long time, for
1:49:00three or four years. When we ask people
1:49:01who they want me to speak to, they say
1:49:02your name. And they say your name
1:49:03because of these the incredible work
1:49:05you've done through your own podcast,
1:49:06which I'm going to link on the screen
1:49:07and below right now, but also through
1:49:09some of these incredible books which
1:49:10have changed people's lives. If you're
1:49:12unfamiliar with Brené's work, um
1:49:15I think people will understand after
1:49:17listening today how much they're missing
1:49:19out on. I'd highly recommend you go and
1:49:21listen to Brené's podcasts, um but also
1:49:23to
1:49:24check out this book Strong Ground, which
1:49:26I'm going to I'm going to link below. Um
1:49:28also Dare to Lead. I think all of um
1:49:30all of the leadership team in my office
1:49:31reference Dare to Lead so often, which
1:49:34is an incredible book about Brave Work,
1:49:35Tough Decisions, and Whole Hearts. You
1:49:37make the most beautiful artwork. I
1:49:39consider these books to be artwork again
1:49:41because they pull on so many different
1:49:42reference points to make something that
1:49:44feels so original. And you've helped so
1:49:46many people. The fact that my audience
1:49:47have demanded I speak to you for so long
1:49:49I think is testament to that. And um
1:49:51you're a wonderful human being. And
1:49:52actually one of the things you've
1:49:53inspired me to be
1:49:55is myself.
1:49:56Because that's exactly what I find you
1:49:58to be. So, thank you so much, Brené, for
1:49:59your time today. It's deeply, deeply
1:50:01appreciated, more so than I could say.
1:50:02And I think you're a wonderful human
1:50:03being. Please come back again soon. I
1:50:05will. I have enjoyed every minute of
1:50:07this. I would say it has not been easy
1:50:10cuz we went to some hard places
1:50:12together,
1:50:13but [clears throat] it's been
1:50:14meaningful.
1:50:15Thank you. Thank you.
1:50:17>> [music]
1:50:26[music]
1:50:37[singing]

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