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Box Elder Data Center Public Forum 7/14/26 — Transcript

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0:01Hello. Hello.
0:03>> How are we doing? Welcome. Welcome to
0:05this uh Boxelder County Data Center
0:07Forum. We really appreciate you all
0:09being here with us tonight uh and
0:11choosing to be here with us tonight on a
0:13Tuesday evening. You could be doing a
0:14hundred other things and you chose to
0:16come here and learn and hopefully feel
0:18empowered to uh take action. Uh I'm Jake
0:21Drifus. I'm the managing director of
0:23Grow the Flow, uh the host for tonight's
0:25evening and your moderator. Um, and I'll
0:27just take a second to invite our
0:28panelists up here. Um, the way this is
0:31going to go tonight is I'm going to ask
0:33uh an opening question to all of our
0:35panelists, uh, and then open it up to
0:37you all. Um, all we ask in this
0:39conversation is that, um, we ground the
0:42conversation in respect, right? We don't
0:44want to hear any booing or tearing or
0:47anything like that. Um, but feel free to
0:50voice your opinion, right? that's really
0:51important and part of of true and good
0:54public discourse and and public process.
0:57Uh and so with that, I'll just briefly
0:58introduce our panelists here. Uh on my
1:00left, I have Grow the Flow's executive
1:02director, Ben Abbott. He's also an
1:05ecologist, a professor of ecology at
1:07BYU, uh where he studies, um global
1:10rivers and lakes and and hydraological
1:12systems. Uh we have Mayor Shepard here,
1:15uh mayor of Clearfield City, uh and also
1:17a board member of Maida. Uh we have
1:19Brena Williams, one of the uh co-signers
1:22and leaders of the uh Boxelder County
1:24Accountability Referendum, a public
1:26referendum to try uh and overturn the
1:30decision made by Box uh by Boxelder
1:32County uh public officials or county
1:34commissioners. And then on the far left
1:35here we have Brigham Daniels who is the
1:38co-director of the Wallace Stegner
1:41Center of Environmental Law at the
1:43University of Utah and the lead of the
1:46Great Salt Lake project where he's
1:48working to develop policy solutions uh
1:50to help save Great Salt Lake.
1:56Uh and so with that, I think I'll just
1:58start here with Ben. And um I'd love to
2:00hear from you, you know, a national and
2:03global perspective, right? How is data
2:05center development unfolding? Uh, and
2:07what are some of the opportunities and
2:08and concerns you see with with the rapid
2:11scale of of data center development in
2:12our state but also around the nation?
2:15[clears throat]
2:16Um, thank you all of you for being here
2:19tonight. I think it is a wonderful sign
2:21of the vitality of our community that
2:23people would show up uh and dialogue in
2:26this way. It it's an act of trust I
2:28believe when we show up face to face and
2:30talk. Um, you know, my two areas of
2:33research are water security and then
2:35energy systems. And so data centers
2:38intersect both of those. Um, I want to
2:41ask a non-rhetorical question, what
2:43percentage of our current consumptive
2:46water use in the Great Salt Lake is
2:48currently going to data centers. Right?
2:50So if you were to estimate how much do
2:53you think that is? Um, who says that it
2:56is uh 50% or more? Jesus.
3:00>> Who says it's 25% or more? Who says that
3:04it's 10% or more?
3:06>> Who says that it's 5%. Who says that
3:09it's less than 1%.
3:11So, it's currently less than 1% of our
3:14consumptive water use is going to data
3:16centers. Um, this is because many of the
3:18data centers that have been developed
3:20are using renewable energy sources. So,
3:22the largest in the state is the meta
3:24data center in Eagle Mountain. uh that
3:26uses solar and it uses a closed loop um
3:29system. Now when I heard about the
3:32Stratos project just a few months ago, I
3:35initially thought, okay, this probably
3:37falls in that same category, right, of
3:39relatively small impact on water. And
3:41then as I looked at the details of the
3:43project, the proposal to use natural
3:45gas, methane to uh create the
3:48electricity for the project, that's
3:50actually where most of the water use is
3:52in these data centers, right? It's
3:53upstream. It's not cooling the servers,
3:56but it's producing the electricity. And
3:58so, um, you know, I've been involved in
4:01as a independent expert on several of
4:04these large mega projects. That's
4:06typically a project more than a billion
4:08dollars. Um, and one of the real issues
4:11is you often have a developer who makes
4:14a lot of claims and promises without
4:17independent vetting. And so when I
4:19looked at the claims of the project,
4:21there absolutely were some some red
4:22flags where I said, "All right, they're
4:24claiming to use a technology alum cycle
4:27a dry cooled turbine to produce that
4:30power, but that hasn't been scaled
4:33anywhere in the world, right? The
4:35largest plant natural gas plant that's
4:37using that cycle is about 400 times
4:39smaller than what they're describing. So
4:41that doesn't mean that it couldn't
4:43happen, right? But it's a question mark
4:45that came up. um if instead they use
4:47different technologies. There have been
4:49multiple independent reports now that
4:51say this could take tens of thousands or
4:53even more than 100 thousand acre feet of
4:55water a year to produce that much power.
4:57So,
4:58um I told uh Mayor Shepard at the
5:01beginning, our goal here tonight is to
5:04get as much clarity as we can, express
5:06our values, and see if we can find a
5:08good path forward. Right? If the
5:10developers can deliver on some of those
5:12promises, that's a very different
5:14scenario than if they than if they
5:16don't. Right? So the the concerns of
5:19using natural gas are water number one,
5:21air quality number two, and then there
5:24is the local thermal impact. And that's
5:26another area that I initially didn't
5:29even think about. With a normalsized
5:31facility, whether it's a power plant or
5:33a data center, usually the local thermal
5:35impact is quite limited. Now, when you
5:37start talking about multiple gigawatts,
5:39that's where you absolutely can change
5:42regional climate. Um, and I understand
5:44that, uh, you know, Rob Davies, I don't
5:46know if he's here tonight, um, he's the,
5:49uh, physics professor from Utah State
5:51University who did the calculations and
5:54estimated how much it could impact local
5:56temperatures. And I want to say
5:57something about that estimate. Rob
6:00didn't say it was the definitive number,
6:02right? He was very um open about here is
6:05a first order estimate to saying how
6:08much energy is going into that valley
6:09and here are the potential impacts. And
6:11he's been criticized by many saying oh
6:14that is alarmist and I actually would
6:16say the thing that's alarming to me is
6:19that we didn't have that data from the
6:21developers on the front end. Right? It
6:23was their responsibility as the
6:24proponents of the project to do that
6:26atmospheric modeling and say what might
6:28the impact be on the local temperature,
6:31day and night cycle, on the local water
6:33cycle. And so we can agree or disagree
6:36with Rob's numbers. We should absolutely
6:37go down that path farther and get more
6:39rigorous estimates on the potential
6:41impacts. But I think that that data
6:43needs to be available before a
6:45commitment is made to move forward
6:47rather than after the fact just trying
6:49to do damage control. So I think that's
6:51what I'll say about D. Oh, one one final
6:54point about data centers. Um, when a new
6:58technology emerges, in this case,
7:00artificial intelligence,
7:02many people will say, um, look, the
7:06demand for for these kinds of of of
7:08technologies doubled last year. Let's
7:10assume it doubles again the next year
7:12and the year after, right? So, we get
7:14very aggressive estimates of here's how
7:16much demand is going to increase. And my
7:19colleague Amarie Loveven uh at Stanford
7:22and RMI he's one of the top researchers
7:24in data centers and what he has pointed
7:26out is data centers currently have a
7:29quadrupling of efficiency yearon year
7:32that's been maintained over about the
7:34last 5 years that means one year from
7:37now you can get the same amount of
7:38compute with a quarter of the
7:41electricity input and water consumption
7:44and what Amory has said over and over
7:45again is the extreme urgency and
7:48pressure to build more of these data
7:50centers looks much more like an
7:52investment bubble than it does meeting
7:54an actual need. Right? And I think that
7:56we've seen people say if you don't
7:58support data centers, well, get rid of
8:00your cell phones. And I think that's a
8:01disingenuous argument, right? We all
8:03have data needs. Most of us heard about
8:06this event through the internet that
8:08does require data centers. It does not
8:10require, you know, tens and hundreds of
8:12gigawatts of new compute. And in fact
8:15there's an economic question around does
8:17it make sense to invest very quickly.
8:19That that's the path that China took,
8:21right? They anticipated demand. They
8:24tried to build out data centers long
8:25before they were needed. And currently
8:28between that that it's China, so you
8:30never have really good independent data.
8:32But the estimates are between 40 and 60%
8:35of their current data center capacity is
8:37sitting idle. It's unused. And that's
8:40again because of these increases of
8:42efficiency. So, I'd love for the
8:44conversation to be about um what are the
8:47trade-offs here, right? Every activity
8:49that we do, one of our ecological laws
8:51is there ain't no such thing as a free
8:53lunch, right? Every energy source has a
8:56cost. Every activity that we do has an
8:58impact, but we need to be really clear
9:00what are the benefits, what are the
9:03costs, and most crucially, who is on
9:06each side of that equation. Right? If
9:08we're expecting a local community to
9:09absorb serious environmental
9:11consequences, there also should be major
9:13benefits to that community.
9:17And uh Mark, I'm going to turn it over
9:20to you here. We're Thank you, Mayor
9:22Shepard, for trusting us to be part of
9:24this conversation and and trusting the
9:25audience to, you know, engage in a
9:27productive dialogue. Um you're an
9:29insider, right, in this process. you're
9:31a board member of Maida and I'd love for
9:33you to speak to um and give us an
9:36overview about of how this project was
9:38proposed to Maida, right, by the um
9:41project developers and and uh how did
9:44the approval process through MITA work?
9:45Like what did what did that look like um
9:48on the inside?
9:49>> Sure.
9:50>> Well, thanks and thanks for
9:52[clears throat] it's a dangerous thing
9:53to say for me. People say, "Hey, don't
9:56don't go do this, Mark."
9:58But I want to I'm I'm actually thankful
10:00to be here and to represent. I don't
10:03represent Maida in speaking tonight. I
10:05don't speak for the organization. I I
10:07don't speak for Clearfield City,
10:09although most people think I do,
10:13[clears throat]
10:13but I speak for me and I can only speak
10:15to the decision and the vote that I cast
10:17on Maida and what I knew coming into it.
10:19my there is a big misunderstanding about
10:23who MIA is and and the not just with the
10:26community not just with with this
10:29community but statewide and and I would
10:31venture to say there's still some
10:33miscommunication or misunderstanding
10:35even at the legislative point as to what
10:37might is because when MIA was created
10:39almost 20 years ago it was it was
10:43brought by legislators that aren't
10:45necessarily there anymore and it has
10:47evolved over the years but that's had
10:49one single mission and that that's
10:51economic development with a military
10:54touch. There has to be it has to be
10:57military related. MIA is approached
11:00almost daily with projects and we want
11:03to do this and we want to do that and I
11:05get calls on my own and I send them over
11:07to to our staff and say hey
11:10you deal with this but it's a regular
11:13thing. We want to be part of my we want
11:15Maida to create a project area here. We
11:17want to be part of this project area. We
11:19want to do something here. And
11:23we are to say selective is is a an
11:28understatement. In almost 20 years that
11:30MIA has existed, we've created eight
11:32projects,
11:35but they are eight very good projects.
11:37They they're very successful projects,
11:40but that's all that we've created. And
11:42so when the Stratus team came to us
11:46through the state and said, "Hey, we'd
11:47like to do this." They came in the same
11:49way everybody else did. And we took a
11:50look at that and said, "Okay, first of
11:52all, does it meet our guiding
11:53principles?" And our guiding principles
11:56are are are laid out. They're on our
11:57website and they're very, you know,
11:59simple. Does it have a military
12:00influence? Is it is it an economic
12:02driver? There's what is the benefit to
12:05to doing a project period. And so that's
12:09what came to us was we want to build a
12:12large data center on a massive piece of
12:18property.
12:20That's what we that that that's really
12:21what came to us was we want a large
12:23data. We knew it was a very large data
12:26center, but we also realized that it was
12:2865 square miles of property. It's not 65
12:31square miles of data center. It was a
12:34significant buffer around this
12:38That's why it's there is because it's
12:40it's in this area that can be surrounded
12:43and continue to be farmed and and all of
12:45its things happening. But that's what
12:47was given to us. We want a a data
12:50center. We are going to it it won't
12:52affect where we'll contribute water back
12:54to the wershed to to the Great Salt
12:56Lake. This is how we will it's water
12:59that's not going to the Great Salt Lake
13:01and that's what we'll do with it. It it
13:03was presented to us in a in a very
13:05positive way.
13:07In that process, Boxelder County held
13:10two meetings before we held ours and
13:12before we held our board meeting and
13:13took our vote on it. At our board
13:16meeting,
13:17which we hold a meeting for every not
13:20just once in a project, but multiple
13:23times through a project.
13:26At every one of those meetings, we have
13:27people show up and and quite often it it
13:30it's there's question after question
13:32after question. We just we deal with
13:34those as we developed in
13:36uh Deer Valley and and developed the
13:39project up there with the ski resort.
13:42There were a lot of questions. I mean,
13:45when we held this project, there were
13:48none. We didn't and and I was completely
13:51shocked that at that meeting, we didn't
13:53have a massive turnout to say we're
13:56against this. And that's
14:00it. It could it be that people again
14:01aren't following our our website that
14:03aren't maybe they aren't looking at
14:04maybe that they're still following it in
14:05every other piece and again Doc Taylor
14:07had held two meetings already. So we our
14:09assumption is that obviously
14:12this is where we're moving forward and
14:15it is a great presentation to us. It
14:17made great sense and economically which
14:19is again the number one purpose of MIA
14:22is economic development with a military
14:25purpose. It made great sense. And so we
14:29we cast our vote on it that night and at
14:31that point it was sent back to to
14:33Boxeller County for their vote. But they
14:35had met on it twice. We met we took our
14:38vote.
14:39We do two things. And well, we do a lot
14:42of things, but we did two things that
14:44day in our in our meeting.
14:46And I think that's part of MIA is a
14:48different a different animal. And when I
14:51say people don't understand it, they
14:53just don't. Um, that's not bad.
14:57We did two things that that day. We
14:59approved a project area, the number one
15:01thing we do, and that's to tell a
15:03developer it's okay to to start a
15:05process. So, we create a project area
15:08that says this is the area that we can
15:09make taxes from. And then we approved a
15:12development agreement and that
15:13development agreement spilled out
15:15everything that that developer has to do
15:18long before they can ever turn dirt.
15:21They can't develop until they have met
15:23this it covers things clear down to dark
15:26skies in that development agreement and
15:29sound it it covers a lot of now does it
15:32cover
15:34everything that might come up? No.
15:36That's why we we go through that process
15:38and it's just our meeting is the first
15:40of many meetings that end up being held.
15:43There's a a design review committee.
15:45There's a development committee that's
15:46put together and on that committee
15:48always sits somebody from the local
15:50area. We have somebody from Wasach
15:52County that sits on on Deer Valley's
15:55committee up there. Um, somebody from
15:58from each of the areas we're dealing
15:59with sits on that committee. So, there's
16:01always that public input and that some
16:03that one representative that can go back
16:05and but it's never the all we did was
16:08start process.
16:10The difference in what happens with with
16:12a city
16:14is that before a project ever comes to a
16:17city, it's all of that work is done
16:20beforehand. Well, if you're coming to me
16:22and you want to spend a half million
16:25dollars, I'm going to make sure you've
16:27done your phase one, phase two testing
16:28on this before you start digging into
16:30the ground. I we want to see that. Um
16:33and we're not going to start and give
16:35you, you know, get you anywhere near a
16:36process until those things are done.
16:39We function just almost the opposite of
16:41that. It's here's the project area,
16:44here's the development agreement that
16:45you will have to abide by, and in that
16:48development agreement is every single
16:50test you're going to have to do before
16:53we ever get to that point of of an
16:54approval process. So that's that's where
16:57we ended up with it that day. And
16:59economically, the the benefit for it was
17:01was significant. And the benefit for the
17:04military was significant both in the the
17:07data itself and for Hill Air Force Base
17:10and our reserve units and our guard
17:11units. Um the the development that will
17:13come because of that. Um again very
17:16significant. So that's that's where we
17:17ended up.
17:18>> Yeah.
17:19>> Thank you for that for that for that
17:20overview. Uh Mayor Shepers and and next
17:23year right we have a very vocal um
17:25opponent to the project, right? So,
17:27we're kind of going to get to hear both
17:29sides of the story here, which is um
17:31very unique and and we're lucky to be
17:32able to do that. Uh and so, so Brena,
17:35right, you um are one of the the
17:37co-signers of the Boxelder
17:38accountability referendum. You're a
17:40longtime Boxelder resident. Um and you
17:43sprung into action, you know, really
17:46quickly after uh this county commission
17:48decision um in in early May. and and I'd
17:52love for you to share, you know, what
17:54really inspired you to organize against
17:56this project. Uh what concerns you see
17:59around it as a local resident here in
18:01Boxelder. Uh and then perhaps mo most
18:03importantly, um how other people in this
18:06room can get involved um if if they are,
18:09you know, aligned with with your
18:10perspective on the project. And I think
18:13you you're lapelled. You're lucky.
18:16>> Okay. I'm just going to introduce myself
18:19for just a minute for those of you who
18:20don't know who I am. I'm a retired
18:23economist, university professor, small
18:26business owner,
18:29wife of a fire power plant engineer,
18:32mother and grandmother.
18:35I became involved with this on April
18:3727th. 33 hours before that the meeting
18:41was um arranged and I became aware of
18:44it. That was the first time I'd heard of
18:46it. I went to the meeting wanted to find
18:49out facts
18:51knowing what I knew a little bit about
18:52the power plant industry. I was had
18:55concerns.
18:58At that point
19:00I was very disappointed in the answers
19:02from the two MITER representatives. They
19:05were like talking point answers. They
19:06were
19:09fating answers and I just felt like they
19:13were putting us down and acting like we
19:14were totally stupid. I w left that room
19:17feeling powerless and angry, feeling
19:20like we'd been ignored and dismissed
19:22because we weren't allowed any public
19:23comment.
19:27>> I hoped to feel better after the May 4th
19:29meeting, but on the way in, I told my
19:32husband that I was going to end up
19:33referending this. I don't know why I
19:36knew that, but I knew that again. There
19:38was no public comment. I felt more
19:41ignored, more dismissed, and more
19:44powerless. And it made me angry.
19:47So that night, I went home and I got on
19:50Facebook and a bunch of us mothers were
19:53on there complaining to each other and
19:56finally we started talking about
19:58referending this thing. And so the next
20:01morning at 9:00, we all showed up at the
20:04county clerk's office and filed the
20:07paperwork for a referendum.
20:11A lot of things concern me. The water
20:14use is probably number one. The Great
20:17Salt Lake is already in collapse. And if
20:20you do the history and research of the
20:22other inland seas that have collapsed,
20:25there's no coming back. Is there any
20:27coming back for the Great Salt Lake?
20:29Maybe, but not if we keep acting like
20:31this.
20:35The water issue is very important. We
20:38don't even have the water right now to
20:39send water back to the Great Salt Lake
20:42and take care of our traditional daily
20:45needs. We're just not doing it. We're
20:48not sending water back. Every year, the
20:50Great Salt Lake shrinks more.
20:53That's a concern.
20:58I also had some environmental concerns.
21:02I have granddaughters and a daughter
21:03with asthma. I suffer from respiratory
21:06problems. And on bad air days, it's not
21:08pleasant to be outside. And we have some
21:12of the worst air in the entire world. In
21:15fact, we just made the top five worst
21:17states to live in because of our air
21:18quality.
21:20So, if this builds out like they say
21:22it's going to to 9 gawatt, that makes a
21:26carbon imprint that will increase 50 to
21:2875%.
21:30Do we want to put 50 to 75% more carbon
21:34emissions into our air when we already
21:36can't breathe during emissions during
21:38inversions? That's a concern. And for a
21:42lot of us that do have health problems,
21:45it's a major concern.
21:50I also am concerned about the heat
21:52shield problem that been addressed. On
21:55average,
21:56data centers increase the temperature
21:596.3%.
22:01Or 6.3°.
22:03On Sunday, Salt Lake broke a record and
22:06we were 109°.
22:09I don't know about you, but 109 degrees
22:11plus 6° doesn't thrill me.
22:14So, I am very concerned about the
22:15temperature increases that could come
22:17from this. There's a lot we don't know.
22:19And a lot of the things they talked
22:21about on that April 27th meeting sounded
22:24great. Sounded wonderful
22:25technology-wise, but it's like unicorn
22:27technology. We know how it works with
22:29really small data centers, but 9
22:32gigawatts is not a small data center.
22:34So, what are the effects going to be?
22:36It's scary.
22:39Then I am concerned about the health
22:41concerns for the community.
22:43in a power plant or a data center,
22:46chemicals are used to help with the
22:48water that is used in in the center.
22:51>> Okay, those chemicals are going to be
22:52released back into the water into our
22:54aquifers.
22:56What impacts are those going to have?
22:59And the scientists have done some
23:00research and I don't like what I'm
23:02reading.
23:04The fact is
23:06it will be released at a different
23:07temperature than when it came in and
23:09it'll be released full of chemicals.
23:12They can't clean it up totally. So, does
23:15that take us as Utons from being
23:17downwinders to being downstreamers?
23:20Because I don't like the idea of being a
23:22guinea pig.
23:26Other health issues have been witnessed
23:27around other data centers and we need to
23:30learn from that. Around data centers,
23:32people are finding that there are more
23:34respiratory problems. There are higher
23:36levels of cancer, higher levels of heart
23:39disease.
23:40there. Again, it doesn't sound like a
23:42picnic to me. It doesn't sound like
23:43something I want to invite into my
23:44neighborhood. Not only that, they're
23:47finding that ranchers in Texas found are
23:51just reporting after two years of their
23:52data center being in operation that they
23:54haven't had a live birth. And they're
23:57also producing that saying that their um
23:59dairy cows are producing far less milk
24:02if they're producing at all. Okay. If
24:06it's affecting our livestock that way,
24:08how's it affecting our wildlife? How's
24:10it affecting us?
24:12There again, studies need to be done. We
24:14need more information.
24:17Then there's the frequency issue. And
24:19this hasn't been studied that much, but
24:21it has been studied a little. We know
24:23that frequencies are collapsing our
24:25beehives. Our bees are in collapse.
24:28Hives are collapsing everywhere. And we
24:30need our bees to pollinate our food.
24:33Onethird of our food comes from
24:34pollination pollinators.
24:38It also confuses birds and this isn't a
24:40migratory flyway.
24:43So, and if we don't know, we live in the
24:45world's largest bird refuge.
24:49It's important to ecosystems across the
24:51hemisphere,
24:53flying from Central America to Canada
24:55every year, twice a year. We already
24:58have millions of birds dying. If you go
25:00to the Great Salt Lake and see the the
25:02lake bed, there are thousands of birds
25:05dead.
25:07What's going to happen when we have
25:08frequencies, we have lights, we have
25:10noise, we have all these things. Can the
25:13birds handle it? Will they be confused?
25:17We don't know. And if we if we knock out
25:20several species, are we going to knock
25:22out system e ecosystems from Central
25:25America to Canada? There again, we don't
25:28know.
25:32I also have major major problems with
25:36and as an economist I probably spent
25:38more time on this than most with the
25:41risks that the citizens of the area are
25:44going to have to take on. The developers
25:47can go away, the investors can go away.
25:50It's not really going to affect them.
25:52Not life-wise, but it is going to affect
25:55us. We're taking all the risks for
25:57concessions that never should have been
25:59given.
26:02Last year we had a property in TA income
26:04tax increase and I know of many many
26:07many people who almost lost their homes
26:09over that. It averaged about $500 a year
26:12per home.
26:14A lot of people in the valley are fixed
26:17income people. So now we're going to
26:19look at higher property taxes because
26:22somebody's going to have to pay for the
26:23infrastructure that is going to have to
26:25go out there and we already don't have
26:27the infrastructure to support what we
26:28already have living here. Our schools
26:31are at 109 136% of capacity. We just
26:35don't have it and we don't have the
26:37money and the infra to build out the
26:39infrastructure we need, let alone the
26:41infrastructure needed for this
26:42additional people and this additional
26:45project.
26:47Then you look at the energy tax
26:48increases and they talk about giving us
26:51energy back. Well, we're giving them an
26:54a decrease of 92%.
26:57I don't think they're going to be giving
26:58us that decrease back when they sell
27:00energy back to us. So, we get to pay
27:02that nice little tax twice.
27:06And if we wanted not to pay personal
27:08property taxes, I don't think we would
27:10succeed very well. In fact, we'd be
27:12losing our homes.
27:15Another problem I have is transparency
27:18and this was another major one
27:21from our viewpoint. This was done in
27:23backroom deals and secrecy.
27:25We haven't seen any economic impact
27:28studies. We haven't seen any water use
27:29studies. We haven't seen any
27:31environmental impact studies. Are those
27:33studies going to be done? And if they
27:35are done, are we going to see them? And
27:37are they going to be done by independent
27:38third parties
27:40either? Again, I don't know. But they
27:43need to be done before anything happens.
27:47Data centers notoriously
27:49are known for overpromising and
27:51underdelivering. That is a historical
27:54fact.
27:56So simply put, I see this project as an
27:59existential threat to our desert
28:01community.
28:03Now where are we now?
28:08After our application for referendum was
28:10denied, we appealed it. Right now, we
28:14are waiting for the answer from the
28:17county
28:19and that should come in sometime this
28:20week. At that point, we will continue
28:22our legal process.
28:26The one thing they have done by drawing
28:28this out like they have is they've given
28:30us a lot more time to get organized, a
28:32lot more time to educate and grow, and a
28:35lot more time to have more events and
28:37grow stronger as a unit.
28:40If you guys want to get involved,
28:43you can go to stopstratus.org
28:46and volunteer or donate.
28:49The main things you can do are keep
28:51active. Keep active on our website, sign
28:55up for our newsletter, pay attention to
28:57our socials,
29:00keep the conversation going. One thing
29:03we've learned is that public skepticism
29:05is growing and it grows louder and
29:08stronger every day.
29:11attend events and volunteer for our
29:14parades. All of those things are
29:16available to you. Pay attention to the
29:19water right petitions. Pay attention to
29:21what's happening with the EPA. Pay
29:23attention to laws bills that are coming
29:25before the legislature.
29:28Write to your elected officials and keep
29:31the pressure on. Protect yourself,
29:33protect your environment, and protect
29:35your community.
29:37Research the candidates that are up for
29:39election and vote. Make sure you vote.
29:42It is your obligation.
29:46And above all else,
29:48right now,
29:51remember that data centers are always on
29:53the pallet.
29:58Thank you, Brena. Um, and most
30:03[applause]
30:08And we'll end here uh with a question
30:10for you, Brig, as our legal and policy
30:13expert on this panel. Um I'd love for
30:16you to give us an overview or an
30:17assessment of the different kind of
30:20legal and policy dimensions of this
30:22project and um you know different
30:25opportunities to um engage in that legal
30:28process, right? We heard Brena refer to
30:30this referendum process. Um, but I know
30:33there's a there's a few other things uh
30:35kind of underway or in process as well.
30:37If if you could kind of just give the
30:39audience an overview of what's going on
30:41there.
30:42>> Sure.
30:44>> And I appreciate um you all being here
30:46and I appreciate the other panelists.
30:48Um, so I the law in this particular
30:53circle I think we one of the things that
30:55I think is interesting is I just
31:02I have to say I'm a little skeptical um
31:05about this the state and the county at
31:09the outset. I I think it there is quite
31:12a bit of evidence from the grandma
31:13requests that are online that meetings
31:15were happening behind closed doors. a
31:17lot of conversations were happening and
31:19then the public actually got to know
31:20about it. I think one of the reasons
31:22that folks did not attend your meeting
31:24uh with Maida is because they just
31:27didn't know about it. If you look back
31:29at the internet and I've done some deep
31:31searches. the very first place for this
31:34uh you know and I would I'm just a
31:36little shocked that none of us caught it
31:38was um you know I I spend a lot of time
31:41on the Shark Tank blog but uh that's
31:44where they announced that's the first
31:46announcement I saw for the project. We
31:48shouldn't be scooped by the Shark Tank
31:51blog.
31:52>> Um I I think that we can do better than
31:54that.
31:55>> Um
31:57a couple of other things to to note. Um,
32:01at least in my listening of the meeting
32:03that happened with my dad, and I'm I I I
32:07there's only a audio recording that I
32:09can find. I couldn't find a video
32:10recording, but in the audio recording
32:12that I I listened to, the the story that
32:15I heard was more along the lines of the
32:18state saw this as a strategic investment
32:22and then decided to narrow down the the
32:25the candidates, picked Olirri because
32:28brought a lot to the table. That's very
32:31different than the conversation that
32:32we've been having that Olyri came here
32:34and put a bunch of pressure on us. I
32:36think that's that's the that's the
32:37dialogue that's in the public. But I
32:39think the thing that is interesting to
32:42me from a legal perspective is
32:45why on earth was the state courting
32:49before it even told its own residents
32:51what it was going to do. Um, so from a
32:55legal perspective and the legal
32:56transparency issues, there were a lot of
32:58issues that I think weren't necessarily
33:04there's probably some violations of the
33:06Open Open Meeting Act by Fox County. I
33:08don't think that's true of Maida, but I
33:10I do think that the interesting thing
33:12here is one of the things that has been
33:13v villainized in a lot of this um
33:17discussion, and we saw this with the
33:18governor's reaction up front that we're
33:21not going to study things to death. The
33:23advantage of studying things is you can
33:25answer questions like the ones that
33:26Brena just asked. What is going to
33:28happen to our lungs? What is going to
33:30happen to our birds? What is going to
33:31happen to our homes? Um, and I think one
33:34of the problems of front-loading the
33:36decision and then backloading the
33:38analysis is that the communities has no
33:40idea what it's signing up for. Um, you
33:44know, I think that as far as building
33:45trust goes, a lot can be done from a um
33:50to build trust by providing people both
33:54information upfront, opportunities to
33:56comment and cutting them in the deal
33:59instead of cutting them out of the
34:00conversation.
34:02Um, from a legal perspective,
34:05the things that I have seen happen, um,
34:08there are two different lawsuits. one
34:11that um is focused on Boxelder County
34:14and that one seems to be the most
34:16active. Um and in that lawsuit,
34:19basically what is at issue is whether or
34:22not the county should be able to
34:24referendum
34:25uh bring a referendum on the decisions
34:28made by the county. Um, you know, it's
34:31interesting to me that the county
34:33decided that this was an administrative
34:35issue that really didn't have general
34:36applicability and then a few weeks later
34:38a county commissioner after having lost
34:40his primary blamed this on this
34:42decision. If there isn't general
34:44applicability
34:45um in a decision that caused a county
34:48official to actually lose their election
34:49because of a decision, I don't I don't
34:51know what other evidence we need that
34:53this is a matter of general
34:54applicability. I think this the size of
34:57this room and the interest in this room
34:58is also in evidence of that general
35:00applicability. Um you know whether or
35:04not you know we have not seen what the
35:07county is going to do. Uh we've not seen
35:10if they're going to answer and fight
35:11this thing. I assume that they will. Um
35:13but the the a lot of this is going to
35:16center around whether or not the
35:18decisions were those that were of
35:20matters of general applicability. um
35:23which or you know policy decisions hard
35:26decisions where they are weighing issues
35:29um and you know I that's really what
35:32that litigation is going to uh be about.
35:35The thing I think that people in this
35:36room need to know is that they need to
35:38watch that litigation closely enough
35:41that in the event that um
35:44uh Brena and the other litigants win,
35:48the clock starts ticking and you've got
35:49to start collecting signatures. So
35:51people need to be eyes up and watching
35:54because that's when the clock will
35:55start. Um as far as the other I mean
36:00there are some concerns about about
36:03MIDIA more generally um and issues of
36:07separation of powers and whether or not
36:10the extent to which legislators should
36:12play a role in appointing
36:15board members and whether board members
36:17who are legislators are valid. And I
36:18think that those kinds of conversations
36:20are going to probably see some legal
36:22action as well. Um, uh, th those ones
36:26don't seem to be cooking as much. And I
36:28I think the I think the real test will
36:30probably be made at the county level.
36:33Um, and you know, I I think that what is
36:37going to be interesting to to to watch
36:39is whether or not um uh the county uh
36:45either concedes or loses that lawsuit.
36:47and you know if there is a referendum um
36:50you know I it just it I was shocked as I
36:53watched the election results come in on
36:55election night um if there you know if
36:59there was any reason to um doubt that
37:01people actually cared about this issue
37:03and felt that they were not listened to
37:05and affected negatively I think that
37:07election night is is ground zero for
37:10that for that um billing anyway so uh
37:14that's a general overview of what I'm
37:15seeing
37:19>> [applause]
37:23>> Thank you, Rick. Uh, and I'm going to
37:24turn it over to you guys in just a few
37:26minutes. But I I did spend some time uh
37:29today reviewing all the questions, your
37:31thoughts, your opinions that all of you
37:33who RSVP took the time to submit. Uh,
37:35and so I figured I would try to um
37:38synthesize those down and ask just a few
37:40more guiding questions to our panelists
37:42here. Um and and on a high level uh
37:45there was a there was a theme of you
37:47know pursuing alter alternative energy
37:50sources right why are we choosing to to
37:52power this thing with a steam powered
37:53natural gas plant instead of
37:58>> wow must not like me huh [laughter]
38:03>> um and then there there's also a lot of
38:05questions of you know what is the data
38:07center serving what are the benefits to
38:09the community here in Boxelder um
38:12opportunities for action and ways to get
38:13engaged, right? If you're in this room
38:15as an opponent to the project and I
38:17think Brena and Rick give us a good
38:19overview of how to do that. And then a
38:22lot of questions about process, right?
38:24Where did the environmental impact
38:26studies come in? What are those impacts?
38:28Uh and so I' I'd love for uh and Ben,
38:32you sort of spoke to those, but but uh
38:34Mayor Shepard, I'd love for you to to
38:36speak to, you know, this this public
38:38process piece, right? I I think there's
38:40there was a lot of frustration from
38:42local residents about how they could be
38:44involved, how they could get um you know
38:46engaged, how their voices would be
38:48heard. Uh and then at the same time,
38:50right, we saw uh people like Kevin
38:53Olirri calling local residents in Utons
38:56paid protesters, right, as a public
38:58servant. I I imagine that didn't that
39:00didn't sit quite right with you. Um, and
39:02and so I'd love for for you to speak to
39:05right this this component of public
39:07process and and if you could turn back
39:08the clock, you know, what maybe would
39:10you have changed in in that process?
39:13>> And that's the toughest question I think
39:15could have been answered is what would I
39:16change because I don't know that, you
39:19know, based on everything that MIA has
39:21done historically. I don't know that our
39:23process changes.
39:25It's
39:27again, while it may not be typical, I I
39:30run a city and so I am all about
39:33transparency. I'm all about hearing from
39:35the public and that's how we run things.
39:38And so I I fully support the referendum
39:41process. I if we'll run this thing
39:43through if if if that's what's decided,
39:45I fully support that. We we need to let
39:47that run its course. That's what we do.
39:51I it's crucial to me that we have that
39:53kind of transparency. We have that kind
39:54of thing. Again,
39:57when a project is brought to us and on
40:00the board, it's been vetted by staff.
40:02It's gone through that whole process.
40:05They've looked at the benefits. They've
40:07met with the land owners. In this case,
40:08the people that showed up to our to our
40:10board meeting were all of the property
40:12owners. They didn't speak, but that was
40:14who was at the meeting were all of the
40:15property owners. Maida doesn't own
40:18property. We're not buying the land.
40:20That's not what we do. Um,
40:24might as the municipality almost you
40:27could call it. I mean, we're that
40:28overseeing piece. Once that project
40:30areas there, we're we're there to
40:31collect the taxes and distribute the
40:33taxes
40:34>> um and to make sure that things happen
40:36the way that they are promised that they
40:39will happen.
40:41We're there to make sure that everything
40:42that is told to us that will be we're
40:46going to do this and we're going to do
40:47that and we're g we have the ability to
40:49hold them accountable for that because
40:50until they reach that point until all of
40:53those tests are done and come back to
40:55the satisfaction of not just the board
40:57but the development committee that put
40:58is put together nothing moves forward
41:01and so I don't know that I'd change that
41:03that process it has worked and Maida
41:06goes back and I have to I mean been I've
41:08been with Maida for 12 years now, but
41:11was on the city council when Maida was
41:13formed. And so in my 19 years in with
41:15Clearfield, I've been involved with MIA
41:18since the beginning.
41:20The one thing that I hear everywhere we
41:23go, um, every time I travel with the Air
41:25Force, uh, to defense community
41:28conferences,
41:30it's how on earth did you do what you've
41:33done with Falcon Hill? How did you take
41:36an enhanced use lease and create what
41:40you've created and what's still coming?
41:42How did you use that with Northrup
41:44Grumman to bring in 5,000 plus jobs?
41:47Now, another we just broke ground today
41:48on building six with Northrup Grumman.
41:52That's another
41:54massive sixstory building that's
41:56bringing jobs and and more to the area.
41:59But it's how did you do that? We want to
42:01do that with our enhanced use lease. We
42:03have one surrounding our base. we'd like
42:04to do the same thing.
42:07And it it wouldn't have happened without
42:10Maida. It's why it was created was in
42:14that case two well one development
42:17covering two counties because it's Hill
42:19Air Force Base and that that 550,000 or
42:22550 acres covers two different counties.
42:26There had to be an overarching authority
42:27to be able to do that. Somebody had to
42:29be able to collect property taxes in
42:31that for both counties.
42:33>> Yeah. that became Maida.
42:36We followed all of those processes and
42:39environmental concerns are crucial to
42:40what we do. I mean, we're we we do our
42:43very best to be good stewards of of
42:45land, good stewards of property taxes,
42:47good stewards of the of the people of
42:48Utah. We live here. You know, people
42:51ask, "How on earth would you do that,
42:52Mark? How did you make that decision?"
42:53Well, I I live here. I don't live in
42:55Boxelder County. I'm not going to say
42:57that I live next to where the data
42:58center is going to be, but but it's not
43:00the first data center that we've done.
43:03Um the NSA building was the first data
43:05center that might have was oversaw.
43:10>> Our process has worked very very well up
43:13until until now. But again, it's nobody
43:16asks about MIA until we're there
43:18>> and now we're here and it's you must be
43:20evil.
43:22The economic development that we've done
43:25is always done with the public in mind
43:27and with again with the land in mind.
43:30when the development in Deer Valley
43:32started to go and this is a massive
43:35development and our military piece of
43:37that is the initial military piece of
43:40that is 100 rooms that are dedicated to
43:44the military to be able to use at the
43:45Grand Hyatt at airman rates and so in a
43:50in a time where it's $900 to rent a room
43:53in a ski in ski out Grand Hyatt resort
43:56it was $200 for for an airman to come up
43:58and spend and do that. But there are
44:01multiple benefits there and in that
44:02comes multiple benefits back to Hill Air
44:04Force Base and the milit the um welfare
44:07mental welfare of the of the base
44:09itself.
44:10But as they started to develop that
44:12project, they came across environmental
44:14issues. It was an old mine. It's it's
44:18built on the Mayflower mine. And well,
44:21the understanding was that everything
44:23had been cleaned up prior to that point.
44:25We found that it wasn't. and the
44:27developers spent well over $20 million
44:29to clean it up. Um, of their money, that
44:32wasn't money that came from MIA, that
44:34was their money to clean up an issue. We
44:37work hand in hand with the developers to
44:38make sure that that things work the way
44:40they're they're supposed to work, but
44:41more importantly, that they follow the
44:43things that they say they're going to
44:44follow. And so, we live on a basis of
44:46trust. And then to me, it's it's
44:48transparency. It's it's
44:52our process process is is what it is and
44:55our process has worked with every other
44:56development that we've done.
44:58>> Um,
45:02do I want more transparency? Yes, I I
45:04do. And that's why again I support the
45:06referendum process. I think if it goes
45:08through and that's what happens, then we
45:09need to follow it. We need to listen and
45:11we need to listen to the residents.
45:14again, all of our testing and the things
45:15that we're worried about are part of
45:17that that process as it goes along and
45:19we've seen that and so and we've seen it
45:21in other projects and because of that
45:23we've known that it it works and so
45:24that's why as as I was asked to cast a
45:27vote and I again I don't speak for for
45:29might as staff and I'll speak for might
45:31as a whole but I speak for mine and when
45:32I looked at the information I'm given
45:36MIT is an economic development group
45:38that's what we do we work hand inand
45:40with the governor's office of economic
45:41development
45:43and we create projects that benefit our
45:46military members.
45:48>> Um,
45:51this does and that's the the ultimate
45:54guiding language we had to look at as
45:56far as a project area. Does this work?
45:58Does it work as a project? Again, we
46:00haven't answered the environmentals yet.
46:02>> We haven't gotten there,
46:03>> but does it work as a project? And if
46:05it's successful, does it generate what
46:07it's supposed to for Boxelder and what
46:10does it generate for the state? and does
46:12it generate it most importantly on our
46:13end for the military
46:15>> and yes it does.
46:19>> Thank you. and you know to this um
46:21environmental questions, right? I think
46:22that's another concern that was voiced
46:24by many of you and in um your responses
46:26to to the RFP form. Brake as our uh
46:30legal expert on the panel, I'd love for
46:31you maybe in 30 seconds so we or a
46:33minute so we can turn it over to the
46:35audience just speak to what that process
46:38does look like from a legal perspective
46:40from air quality permitting, water
46:42availability assessments, all that sort
46:43of thing.
46:44>> Yeah, it will a lot of this will depend
46:47on what the project actually is. If we
46:49end up um pursuing the project as it was
46:52laid out in sort of the bullet point
46:54memorandum 9 gaww
46:57big data center um and this is going to
47:01be natural gas fired. We're going to see
47:03an air quality permit and uh they're
47:06going to have to go through uh the
47:08department of air quality at the
47:10department of environment uh the
47:12division of air quality at the
47:13department of environmental quality. Um
47:16there will be uh mandated periods of of
47:19public comment and a lot of
47:22opportunities to participate there. Um,
47:24if there is a water pollution problem,
47:26which I think there probably will be,
47:27you'll have to go through the division
47:29of uh uh uh uh well again the department
47:32of environmental quality, there's a
47:34there's a water uh division and then we
47:37have uh in addition to that water rights
47:40issues and that's going to be through
47:41the state engineer and the uh um
47:44division of water rights and department
47:46of natural resources. Um if there is
47:48effect on you know Great Salt Lake there
47:50may be additional kinds of permits that
47:52are going to be needed. I think one of
47:54the things that's hard about this is we
47:56haven't actually been told exactly what
47:58we're going to be seeing. What we've
48:01been told is like here is a kind of
48:03abstract pencil sketch of what it might
48:06look like and we're having to move
48:07forward. Um I I do find it really quite
48:10hopeful uh Mary that you would be
48:14supportive of the referendum. Um I I
48:16think that that um you know that that
48:20could make a really meaningful
48:21difference if if Maida was to take that
48:23position um because um you know I can
48:27understand Boxelder County may not have
48:29wanted to hear its residents but if
48:31that's a value that um that MIA has you
48:34you still have the ability to to pivot
48:37there.
48:38>> Well again I speak on my end so that's
48:40for sure for sure.
48:41>> I I I'm about transparency. I have to
48:43I'm an elected official. I expect to
48:45hear from my residents. I hold public
48:46hearings and I expect them to show up.
48:48And in fact, when we hold a budget
48:49hearing in my city and nobody shows up
48:53and we're raising property taxes even
48:55slightly and nobody shows up, I get
48:57concerned. And I want to hear from my
49:01residents. I want to know what they
49:02think. And so if if the referendum
49:05process moves forward,
49:08then we'll we'll we support that and we
49:11certainly will respect that.
49:12>> Yeah.
49:13>> Awesome. Well, well, thank you guys for
49:14for giving that framework and
49:16background. And I'm just going to turn
49:18it over to all you in this room tonight.
49:20Um, and just ask that you project your
49:23voice a little bit so folks can hear us.
49:25Uh, I saw that shirt, white shirt right
49:27there, hand shoot up right away. So,
49:28I'll turn it over to you.
49:29>> May I ask a question,
49:30>> please?
49:31>> Um, I'd like to ask you, Mayor Mark
49:33Shepard, you spoke um earlier about a
49:37development agreement. Where is that
49:38published? Where may we look at that? I
49:41don't know that I need to hopefully my
49:43Shakespearean actor training would be
49:45you know at least let me reject it. It's
49:47on Maida's website. All of our documents
49:49are always on Mida's website and so
49:53>> so I have looked at that website and
49:55I've looked at uh many of the disclosure
49:58statements filed by the MIT members. I
50:00don't remember reading yours uh Mayor
50:03Shepard, but uh most of those members
50:05when they filled out their uh section on
50:08conflict of interest
50:10uh they were very poorly filled out.
50:15>> I can't speak to that. I know.
50:18>> So, I am going to go look at yours and
50:20I'm also going to go look for this
50:21development agreement because I did not
50:23find that on the center, but that was
50:25about a month ago when I looked. So, I
50:27will look again.
50:28>> Sure.
50:29>> And if I can't find it, may I find that?
50:32>> You can reach out. I I'm happy to point
50:34you to
50:35>> appreciate that because that's very
50:37important for us to look at it and to
50:39take your lead Brandon right is we
50:42should be able to look at that and Mr.
50:44Drifus uh told us about the process that
50:47should be gone whether it's department
50:50quality requirements or the other
50:52requirements and so we all have an
50:54opportunity to look at that and uh
50:56provide some feedback and critique.
50:59>> Sure.
51:00>> Thank you. You know, related to that, um
51:04I emailed you a public trust pledge
51:07asking you to to voluntarily pledge you
51:09would not profit um from this, you were
51:12your immediate family and you never
51:14returned that. So then I sent one
51:16certified mail the end of June and that
51:18has still not been returned. Are you
51:20willing to pledge to the public that you
51:22and your immediate family are not going
51:24to profit privately from the approval?
51:29>> 100%.
51:30>> Okay, thanks. I have a pledge right
51:31here. Would you be able
51:36[applause]
51:36to
51:38right here?
51:39>> Thank you.
51:40>> I have no problem with that.
51:41>> Excellent. Love that. It's It's
51:43interesting. And I just real quick
51:47as mayors, as council members, we sit on
51:50multiple boards.
51:53Every one of those boards. When I sit on
51:54our fire district board, there's a
51:56stipen that goes with sitting on fire
51:57district board because I'm committing
51:58time and effort to that board. When I
52:00sit on the steel ament board, when I sit
52:02on WASA integrated board, every one of
52:06those comes with some sort of stipen.
52:09A lot of my my colleagues will take and
52:11use those on their own. They they sit on
52:12every one of those boards and I choose
52:14not to because I want to get my council
52:16experience and it to me it's a weird
52:19thing to look at that way. The one board
52:21that does not provide a stipen at all
52:24that I sit on is mine. I receive
52:27absolutely nothing from mid. It's my
52:31time. It's my time I'm giving up which I
52:33don't get paid as a mayor. I I get a
52:35stipen as a mayor.
52:36>> Yeah.
52:37>> It's not a full-time job. And so
52:38>> it's the billion dollar plus contracts
52:42associated with the minor approval that
52:44I'm concerned about.
52:46>> Sure. But we again we don't one that
52:48would be a major conflict of interest. I
52:50would worry if that were ever the case,
52:52but that's not I I can speak on my end.
52:55>> I'll sign that thing every day.
52:57>> Thank you. I was surprised it hadn't
52:58been returned yet, so I look forward to
52:59that. Thank you.
53:01>> Yeah, let's go with you in the Batman.
53:04>> Yeah. Question for you, Mark. So, for my
53:07whole life, you're a popular guy
53:08tonight. Um I've seen Hillary Wor go
53:13from what it was to the gyot it is
53:16today. And I as a Davis County resident
53:19am grateful for that, right? High paying
53:21jobs, lots of high paying jobs that
53:24friends and family and everybody have
53:26benefited from. I think my concern with
53:28this and a lot of other people's concern
53:31is, okay, there's going to be data
53:32centers, there's going to be
53:33construction jobs, there's going to be,
53:35you know, some decent amount of tech
53:37jobs up there. but nothing like Falcon
53:40Hill and the tax base that that gives us
53:42and and the wealth that it has brought
53:45to Wever counties. I think that's kind
53:47of my one of my bigger issues with it
53:50is, you know, it doesn't seem like it's
53:52going to support as many jobs as
53:53something like
53:55um and create that I mean high paying
53:57jobs with property val etc etc etc right
54:01so I guess if you could go back in time
54:05politicians don't like hypotheticals um
54:07would you have reservations today and
54:10would you put any other stipulations on
54:12on the on the straps about
54:20I think that's probably the question I
54:21get asked more than any is if I could go
54:23back in time, what would I do different?
54:28I have yet in 19 years as an elected
54:31official backtrack on anything I've done
54:34because I I truly believe I take the
54:36best information I can, the best
54:37everything that I've got before I cast
54:40the vote.
54:41I can't second guess that we're not
54:43there yet. I can't look to say, well,
54:45wow, there's going to be a whole lot
54:46wrong or there's going to be a whole lot
54:47right. Will this create jobs? Yes, I'm
54:50100% sure it will create jobs. How many
54:54jobs this will long-term create? I have
54:56what was given to us as what they
54:59anticipate. Yes, the jobs to build it
55:01and then the jobs that long-term come to
55:04run a data center. I I've seen how many
55:07jobs are out at Meta. I've seen how many
55:09jobs are out at at NSA. I I know what
55:11they're [clears throat] using to run
55:12theirs. If this became and again it's
55:16it's even the development agreement
55:18cause calls for phases. If this reached
55:21its pinnacle, yes, there's a lot more
55:23jobs that are working in NSA and there's
55:24a lot more jobs that are working at Meta
55:26because it's a significantly larger
55:28facility.
55:30I can tell you from a real estate
55:32standpoint personally what business does
55:34to other business and that one business
55:36attracts others. And it it's really hard
55:39to say that something in the middle of
55:41of of 65 square miles of of vacant land
55:45what that will bring long term. Am I
55:48confident it does? Yes. From a real
55:50estate standpoint, I truly believe that
55:52development drives development. And the
55:55last thing I think that we end up seeing
55:56is one building sitting in the middle of
55:5765, you know, 65 acres or 65 square
56:00miles of of property. As roads are built
56:03to it, roads create opportunity. Then
56:07just one quick followup. Um, can we
56:11guarantee transparency for Maya on the
56:13water issues? The job, you know, how
56:16many how do we guarantee you will get us
56:19that information if this thing
56:22progresses?
56:22>> Well, because we have I mean just plain
56:24and simple, we have to follow the exact
56:26same laws that a municipality does in in
56:29our processes. And so we we do the same
56:32things. And so that information again,
56:34everything that has to do with any
56:35project that we do is is on our website.
56:37It is available to see and if you can't
56:39find it, we'll guide you to where it is,
56:42but it it is there. And yes, that's
56:45we have,
56:46>> but mine is not elected like a city
56:48council.
56:50>> Let's just let's just keep it our
56:52question here.
56:54>> Uh yeah, the black hat.
56:55>> Okay. Thanks. Um I feel like I have
56:58maybe a unique perspective. I've been
57:00spending the last like 5 months walking
57:03the area around northern Great Salt
57:05Lake. I'm an artist, full-time artist. I
57:07also have a background in public health.
57:09I have a master's degree in public
57:10health. I started my art project
57:13concerned about the Great Salt Lake
57:14before anybody knew about the Shadow
57:16Data Center. I walked hundreds of miles
57:19of that landscape trying to tell the
57:21story of like the reality of it, the
57:24beauty of it, but also that it's a
57:25landscape that is in collapse. There is
57:28so much lost you can already see.
57:30There's literally 10,000 years of human
57:33activity that's evident. Every time I go
57:34out there, I find evidence of human
57:36activity out there. And now it's a
57:38landscape. You can tell it's just trying
57:40to hold on. And what it's holding on to
57:43is exactly these two valleys where the
57:45data center is going in. And the way
57:48that you're talking about it, Mr. Mayor,
57:50first of all, I respect you for being
57:51here and being willing to talk to us.
57:58But I do have a hard time with the way
58:00you're talking about this data center as
58:01if it's an island because it will affect
58:04these entire valleys. Um, not just the
58:07heath, but the springs. And um, what I
58:10would say is that this isn't a landscape
58:13that appeals to a lot of people because
58:15it is harsh, but it's a landscape that
58:17is holding on to so much life still, but
58:20just barely. I've found native fish out
58:23there, the beast chub. I've seen snowy
58:26pulvers in both of those valleys. Um
58:28I've seen pong horn and coyote and wild
58:31cats and badger. Um it's a living area
58:35still and people um I've heard a lot of
58:38the concluding the county commissioners
58:39talk about is that it's just an empty
58:41field of 65 miles of nothing and it's
58:44not. That's not the case. And that 65
58:47mile area, even though it's not all
58:48going to be data centers, it will all be
58:51affected. Plus, it's not an island. And
58:54there are so many springs. So, the north
58:57end of the Great Salt Lake, for people
58:59who don't know, is basically a dead
59:01lake. It's not thriving anymore. We've
59:03cut it off. It's too sailing. But there
59:06are hundreds of springs along the north
59:09end of the Great Salt Lake. I haven't
59:11seen any environmental studies, but
59:13those are the areas that are keeping
59:14life alive out there. And that's exactly
59:17what the data centers are tapping into,
59:19not feeding back into the springs, and
59:22they're fragile. And so, first of all, I
59:26think that it's frustrating to see a
59:29huge project like this move forward
59:31without the initial environmental
59:32studies being done. Second, as a
59:35citizen, I feel like we've been
59:37overlooked. and reason why maybe people
59:39aren't attending these minor meetings.
59:41As an artist who sells publicly, that
59:44means it's a public issue. It's a
59:46marketing issue. It's not that people
59:48don't care. Um, so last thing that I'll
59:51say is that um I thought a lot about
59:54this Nij quote when I spend my time out
59:56on this land and it's this idea that you
59:59know somebody who steps on a cockroach
1:00:01is a hero, but someone who steps on a
1:00:03butterfly is a villain. And for some
1:00:05reason, people think this landscape is a
1:00:07cockroach. It's not. It's a butterfly.
1:00:11>> Thank you.
1:00:13[applause]
1:00:19>> I' I'd like to say thank you. First of
1:00:21all, as again,
1:00:24our process starts early in this is
1:00:26where we are and then goes on to
1:00:28testing, then goes on to environmentals.
1:00:30And it's at that point that that's what
1:00:32we want to hear. I I mean as as we meet
1:00:34and as those tests are done and as those
1:00:36public hearings are held, that's what
1:00:38that
1:00:40commission is going to want to hear is
1:00:43the what's behind that. And yes, here's
1:00:45the data, but here's here's everything
1:00:47else. That that's to me that's the
1:00:49transparency. That's the openness and
1:00:51that's the accepting of the opinions and
1:00:52saying, "Okay, we can't gather all of
1:00:54that right now." There there's a lot of
1:00:56it we can't
1:00:57>> because frankly we don't know. There's
1:01:00there are so many hypotheticals right
1:01:02now that we say, "Well, it's going to do
1:01:03this and it's going to do this and it's
1:01:04going to do this and it's going to do
1:01:05this." And some of those may well be
1:01:07right, but we don't I don't know at this
1:01:10point because I don't have those stats.
1:01:13I would say that's the problems that you
1:01:15don't know.
1:01:16>> I feel like
1:01:21again
1:01:23doesn't move until those questions are
1:01:24answered. And so in our end, we
1:01:28there we haven't permitted we haven't
1:01:30issued a permit. We haven't even we're
1:01:31not even close as a minor board to a to
1:01:33that permitting process yet. And at this
1:01:36point, we've got to go through the
1:01:37referendum process and see that out and
1:01:40how that ends before we start down any
1:01:42other road. And there's a lot that still
1:01:44has to happen.
1:01:45>> I can I just make a suggestion. I'll be
1:01:46done.
1:01:47>> Sure.
1:01:47>> I would just say um you so far said you
1:01:50wouldn't go back and change anything. If
1:01:52I could convince you to change
1:01:53something, it would be to take public
1:01:55input and make sure public knows about
1:01:57these meetings before you prove anything
1:01:59to me because it feels like a corporate
1:02:01talky
1:02:05before we question our colle.
1:02:12>> Yeah. the um you quoted Nietze so I'll
1:02:15quote Wendel Barry one of my favorite
1:02:17writers and Wendel Barry wrote there is
1:02:20no unsacred ground
1:02:23there's only sacred land and desecrated
1:02:25land and I think that um one of the
1:02:28things that is so beautiful about our
1:02:30community whatever your personal
1:02:32spiritual beliefs is that we feel the
1:02:34power of this place
1:02:37you know and especially in a world that
1:02:39is becoming more digital and
1:02:41disconnected
1:02:42being able to actually witness and
1:02:44connect with the land, with the water is
1:02:47so important. And so, one of the
1:02:49messages that I've heard from all the
1:02:51panelists is we need to stay involved.
1:02:54And many people have said, "Oh, it's a
1:02:56done deal, right? There's no
1:02:57opportunity." And instead, um, we need
1:03:00really to stay engaged on this. And and
1:03:03on the water issue, there has been a
1:03:05claim, I've heard this from several
1:03:06people, that there's no hydraological
1:03:08nexus or connection between those
1:03:10valleys in Salt Lake. I've seen no
1:03:12scientific evidence suggesting that's
1:03:14the case. To the contrary, we've seen
1:03:15locomotive springs and many of these
1:03:17springs decrease in flow as water use in
1:03:21those valleys has increased. So again,
1:03:23thinking of burden of proof the it's a
1:03:25part of the wershed. We need to assume
1:03:27that water consumption there like
1:03:29anywhere else would impact.
1:03:32>> Yeah, let's go.
1:03:34>> I just have a just a question. I I have
1:03:38heard, you know, one of the weird things
1:03:40about being in my job is a lot of people
1:03:42reach out to me and I'm not really the
1:03:45person they need to talk to. I'm just
1:03:47the person they find. Um
1:03:50>> story of my life.
1:03:51>> Yeah. Right. No, you you're you're But
1:03:52one of the things that I've heard from
1:03:53folks that there has been some earth
1:03:55moving on the site. Um, and I I don't
1:03:58know if that's true or not true, but I,
1:04:01you know, I I I would just love uh it
1:04:05seems just what you just said suggests
1:04:07that there has not we haven't started,
1:04:10we haven't started down this road at
1:04:12all, but I' I've heard and again, I
1:04:14mean, it could be just somebody moving
1:04:18earth on their property the way that is
1:04:20conforming to what their land is doing
1:04:21now. I have no idea. I I'm again, I'm
1:04:24I'm speaking out of ignorance here. Not
1:04:26on our end, not not on the developers
1:04:28end at this point. We're in a we're in a
1:04:31holding pattern at this point. We got a
1:04:33process going that's again we respect
1:04:36and we will see that through. Nothing
1:04:38again we haven't given a permit.
1:04:41>> And so are you saying that the
1:04:42permitting process won't start until the
1:04:44referendum process is?
1:04:45>> The permitting process won't start until
1:04:47everything in that development agreement
1:04:49is done and they've met all of the
1:04:50requirements.
1:04:53>> Let's go [clears throat] here in the
1:04:55Yeah. yellow shirt
1:04:56>> that yeah whatever color it is.
1:04:58[laughter]
1:04:59>> So I just want to ask I'll try to be
1:05:01very brief. So in other parts of the
1:05:03nation where data centers go in like how
1:05:06they have provided by local permit
1:05:08processes they've met the requirements
1:05:11they got permits they built and then
1:05:13there were consequences
1:05:16and I just presuming that the law of you
1:05:19know everything kind of being even that
1:05:22pretty much happened everywhere that
1:05:23these have gone in. What are the
1:05:25remedies at that point? Is it worth the
1:05:27risk?
1:05:31Is it worth the risk?
1:05:33>> So So the the question there just to
1:05:35make sure I'm hearing it correctly is
1:05:36basically like if the developers fail to
1:05:40to beat the agreement that's laid out or
1:05:43they you know don't beat water.
1:05:46What happens then? Is that basically
1:05:48>> if they meet if they do the studies
1:05:52build approvals and then walk back.
1:05:56We live in a nation that it's pretty
1:05:58standard for major corporations. I mean
1:06:01look at the pond in the uh forever
1:06:04chemicals they were right that they
1:06:07failed to keep their policy.
1:06:09>> Yes. They publicly accountable. What are
1:06:12the what are the remedies for that?
1:06:14>> Yeah.
1:06:14start bring there from a legal
1:06:16perspective.
1:06:18>> Well, yeah. I I mean, I don't know if I
1:06:23really I'm the expert here. Uh what I'll
1:06:26say is um part of this will depend on
1:06:30what the permit looks like, right? Uh
1:06:32they could have um closure agreements,
1:06:35they could have violation agreements. Um
1:06:38and you know, the the ultimate permit is
1:06:41the thing that you'd ultimately look at.
1:06:42The thing that is odd about this one
1:06:44though is
1:06:47when um Maida stepped in and I realize,
1:06:51you know, 65 miles may include a buffer,
1:06:55but there's still uh I had a neighbor
1:06:58once when we were dealing with a
1:07:00project. There was the developer
1:07:02referred to the the project have having
1:07:04a buffer and the neighbor said, "Well,
1:07:06I'm a buffer to the buffer then. So, I'm
1:07:08I'm just right outside of the buffer and
1:07:10then what happens to me, right?" And we
1:07:13kind of the strange thing about this is
1:07:14Boxelder County normally would have
1:07:16tried to take into account the broader
1:07:19community interests and now we're going
1:07:21to focus in on the land owners who all
1:07:25are standing to profit as sort of the
1:07:29stewards of the project and there isn't
1:07:31anybody outside of that 65 miles who is
1:07:35actually a constituent of MIA there.
1:07:36They've been cut out of the county
1:07:39essentially for a local government
1:07:40purpose.
1:07:42And um I think one of the strange things
1:07:45about this one is oftentimes local
1:07:47governments play a very valuable role in
1:07:50trying to bridge the gap between a
1:07:53controversial development and the
1:07:55affected neighbors. And in this
1:07:57particular case, you have uh basically
1:08:01the town is everybody who stands to
1:08:04profit from the project and everybody
1:08:06who is going to bear the cost who
1:08:07doesn't stand to profit, they're on the
1:08:09outside. And I think that that really is
1:08:12going to require um some delicacy if
1:08:14Maida is going to uh thread that needle.
1:08:17Um assuming that we ever get to that
1:08:19point.
1:08:19>> And and Greg, can you kind of speak to
1:08:21like the actual like process there? like
1:08:24you know if they aren't entertained with
1:08:27you know air quality.
1:08:29>> So right yeah it so there may be some
1:08:33remedies that are within an air permit
1:08:35or a clean water act permit uh in which
1:08:38case the state would be the venue no
1:08:40matter what and that's going to be the
1:08:42same. I'm thinking more about sort of
1:08:44local nuisance issues. So, um, you know,
1:08:47it might it might not be that they're
1:08:49operating within their permit, but
1:08:50they're causing a heat island or they're
1:08:52up in their permit, they're causing an
1:08:53air quality problem, so still kind of
1:08:55localized or they're operating within
1:08:57their permit, their sound noise or
1:08:59whatever. I mean, that's more of the but
1:09:01if it is within the if they're violating
1:09:03their permit, um, you can the I would
1:09:07expect the state to enforce the law
1:09:08vigorously and if they don't, citizens
1:09:11can bring suit in order to enforce the
1:09:12law themselves.
1:09:15Okay,
1:09:16>> let's go here in the blue.
1:09:19>> Um, good afternoon. Thank you all for
1:09:20being here. Um, especially for the might
1:09:23representative. You're very brave. Um, I
1:09:25have a couple questions. This is just a
1:09:27little bit quick on my dignity index.
1:09:31>> I love that.
1:09:33I hand that out at every council
1:09:35meeting.
1:09:37>> It sits on my dis for every one of my
1:09:39council members and it's handed out at
1:09:40the door so that we have those those
1:09:43great conversations.
1:09:45>> Very good. So, um I worked on this
1:09:47during the enhanced use lease creation.
1:09:50I worked in the public private
1:09:51partnering office in the command staff
1:09:54building and I saw it from the beginning
1:09:56and I understand the reason for it.
1:09:57Might have came a little bit later
1:09:59because we were having a hard time
1:10:00implementing it cross weaver and Davis.
1:10:03So I heard a gentleman in the back who
1:10:05was talking about how how it's benefit
1:10:06I'm from Weaver County myself and and it
1:10:09it was needed at that time to kind of
1:10:11bridge the the conflict that we had
1:10:13between counties and how do we do this?
1:10:15Um my first qu my first comment is has
1:10:18mine outgrown its purpose. The things
1:10:20that you've done around the base great
1:10:23camp Williams great ski resort the
1:10:25pressure I was also involved with that
1:10:27because we were looking for property on
1:10:28the hill play swap right so I get that
1:10:31we had NWR facilities around the world
1:10:34and we had a lot of military benefits
1:10:35but was there another deal with Canada?
1:10:37We don't know. But I feel like it might
1:10:40have maybe have outgrown their original
1:10:43purpose and gotten a little too big. So
1:10:45the the first question second one is
1:10:49have we really delineated what the
1:10:51military aspect of this project is other
1:10:53than throwing up a national security
1:10:56banner. Um, and when we throw up that
1:10:59national security bank banner, we kind
1:11:01of go into a secret position and we
1:11:04start throwing out terms like fear of
1:11:06China getting ahead of us. We have to
1:11:08remember that we are an open society and
1:11:12there's a reason we're open and why
1:11:13we're so strong and competitive because
1:11:15we have great people who give good
1:11:17ideas. And it is more painful,
1:11:19democracy, they're messy, but it's
1:11:21gotten us to where we are 250 years
1:11:23later. Um, and the third part of that is
1:11:27are we asking enough of these
1:11:28developers? We don't really know who
1:11:30who's going to be using this. We know
1:11:32it's going to be one of the gazillion
1:11:34billionaires out there. You listen to
1:11:36other cities and counties that have
1:11:38projects and they're asking for the moon
1:11:41and not just for their county, but for
1:11:42the state. We're struggling with
1:11:44affordable housing, with feeding
1:11:45children, with our public education
1:11:47system. Um, and these are things we can
1:11:50and they won't give it unless you ask.
1:11:52And it's not just property tax back as
1:11:54you talked about. Seniors are being
1:11:56taxed out of their homes right now, but
1:11:58there are bigger things we could be
1:11:59asking for uh aside from the ecological
1:12:02environment and other concerns. This is
1:12:04just more the the other side of it. So
1:12:06is my room is is bridges. [laughter]
1:12:10Um are we hiding from national security
1:12:12and China as a fear tactic? And are we
1:12:15asking
1:12:16[applause]
1:12:20say that again last
1:12:20>> and and are we
1:12:22>> repeat the last point?
1:12:23>> Go ahead.
1:12:24>> And are we asking enough?
1:12:25>> Are we asking enough?
1:12:28>> Are we asking enough for our community's
1:12:30back?
1:12:35>> I didn't know if it was for sure a
1:12:36question. Um
1:12:39>> Yeah. Again, you're asking my my
1:12:40personal
1:12:42belief. Um, has Maida outgrown it
1:12:47itself? I I don't believe so.
1:12:51Is Maida or is this project hiding
1:12:54behind national security?
1:12:56While there are
1:12:58certainly um
1:13:01there there are certainly a military
1:13:02aspect of of the the facility itself.
1:13:06It's what it does for the rest of the
1:13:08mil military within the the state and
1:13:10the commitments from that that income
1:13:14that benefit that that's where the
1:13:16military benefit is. It's what it gives
1:13:18to Hill. It's what it gives to our our
1:13:20guard units, our reserve units, and the
1:13:21infrastructure that it builds on their
1:13:23end that they can't build without it. Um
1:13:25they not being able to go after Milcon
1:13:27in the way that they used to be able to.
1:13:29Now they this allows things to happen.
1:13:33That's more of a military tie to it than
1:13:35to say, "Oh, it's tied to national
1:13:37security."
1:13:38Is there a need for it? Yes. Um, and it
1:13:41and it's interesting. Uh, it was it was
1:13:43interesting for me to have this blow up
1:13:46in the way that it did. Not and and it
1:13:48it kills me that it it just gotten where
1:13:51to the point where it did.
1:13:54I was at
1:13:56I was traveling which I've had to do way
1:13:58too much lately but I was traveling and
1:14:00ended up participating on this board
1:14:02meeting virtually which was okay but I
1:14:05finished and we we wrapped up and and
1:14:07vote was cast and we were done with the
1:14:09meeting and I went on and from where I
1:14:11was in Detroit that week I traveled to
1:14:15[clears throat]
1:14:15Georgia um to Maxwell Air Force Base for
1:14:19war college and I sat in the middle of
1:14:22the we need this we need this. Let's
1:14:24have a a a full day's chat on China and
1:14:28our situation with them. Let's have a
1:14:29full day's chat about Russia. Let's have
1:14:31a full day's chat about AI and where we
1:14:34sit and drone technology and our
1:14:37desperate need for that technology and
1:14:39the need then for the places to host
1:14:41that technology.
1:14:45And it was eye opening for me to go,
1:14:46"Wow, okay, this is this is amazing."
1:14:48And then I get to my email at night and
1:14:50I have death threats.
1:14:55And I'm thinking, okay, I've got death
1:14:58threats for something that I've just
1:14:59been from a national standpoint, from
1:15:02the Air Force being told how desperate
1:15:04our situation is from a national
1:15:06security standpoint
1:15:08for AI, for those things.
1:15:13There's a huge benefit to our military
1:15:14here. Those are the guys that I worry
1:15:16about. Those are the guys that live in
1:15:17my community. Those are the guys that
1:15:18work in my community and and throughout
1:15:21the state. I I have a commitment to the
1:15:23military itself. I served on the civic
1:15:24leader program for AFMC for material
1:15:26command and I get to deal with those
1:15:28guys on a regular basis. And so I look
1:15:30at what does that project do? Is Deer
1:15:34Valley
1:15:36too big? It it had its purpose
1:15:40from an economic development standpoint,
1:15:43not military standpoint, but from an
1:15:45economic development standpoint that
1:15:47affects the military. It's huge. And the
1:15:52size of it will greatly benefit the
1:15:54airman at Hill. I we know what those
1:15:56numbers look like. That will greatly
1:15:58affect Hill. Every one of those projects
1:16:00in one way or another is doing those
1:16:03same things. If there way is a way in my
1:16:06mind to do more of that
1:16:09that doesn't mean data centers but
1:16:12development as a whole that has that
1:16:14effect on our military then yes I think
1:16:16MIA has a continued purpose
1:16:19if if we if we're done taking care of
1:16:21the military and don't need those things
1:16:22any longer that's to me is when that
1:16:25stops
1:16:28>> yeah you want to speak
1:16:29>> one thing I I would just say um
1:16:34my biggest occupational hazard as a
1:16:36professor, someone's going to zoom bomb
1:16:37me. Um, so hats I I really the fact that
1:16:41you were standing here in front of this
1:16:42group after that just shows I some
1:16:45gumption. So I I appreciate you being
1:16:47[applause]
1:16:50um the the the thing I will say that it
1:16:55one of there were really two different
1:16:56factors I think that caused this problem
1:16:58and one was the idea that China was
1:17:03going to get ahead of us at AI was
1:17:06paired with almost in the same day maybe
1:17:08not in the same press release but the
1:17:10project proponent claiming that everyone
1:17:12that was opposed to it was a paid
1:17:14protester by China. And I will say, you
1:17:18know, um I'm looking for my check still.
1:17:21I I I feel very I feel very wrong,
1:17:24right? China hasn't given me anything
1:17:26yet. Um and I think that's true across
1:17:29the board. The the second thing that I
1:17:31think is, you know,
1:17:35laying out the case ahead of time and
1:17:38allowing people to make their own
1:17:39assessments.
1:17:41Um, you know, a big part of this is, you
1:17:43know, just the fact that that MITA
1:17:46meeting happened and then my
1:17:48understanding of the process is that
1:17:50later that night is when Boxelder County
1:17:52met the first time, put it off for a
1:17:54week and then um voted without any
1:17:57public comment.
1:18:00>> Boxelder County met what
1:18:02>> question for you.
1:18:04>> Oh,
1:18:04>> without notice that was meaningful that
1:18:07the notice didn't really
1:18:10Only land owners were at that person.
1:18:14>> Why was that?
1:18:16>> Yeah, you were there cuz you knew about
1:18:17it. You You knew about it, didn't you?
1:18:19None of us knew about it. I wonder why
1:18:21that was.
1:18:21>> It wasn't It was advertising.
1:18:23>> That's not public notice, man.
1:18:24>> Yeah.
1:18:25>> Where it was in the paper.
1:18:27>> We had no notice of any of this.
1:18:30>> You did though. So, you go ahead and
1:18:32agree
1:18:34>> cuz you were an interesting party
1:18:36apparently.
1:18:37>> I said
1:18:39sorry. I have a question.
1:18:42>> Sure. Go ahead.
1:18:43>> Okay. Um, one thing um, Shephard, Mr.
1:18:48Sheepard said was that roads bring uh,
1:18:51industry or something like that. Well,
1:18:53that land out there, Hansel Valley is
1:18:56the perfect winter range for cattle.
1:18:59Those farmers most of the time don't
1:19:00have to grow any alalfa and most of the
1:19:03ranchers are under attack for growing
1:19:05alalfa because it takes so much water.
1:19:07And where we have perfect land, we don't
1:19:10need growth for it to have industry. We
1:19:13have good industry. [clears throat]
1:19:14Now, Elise Nelson, who has three
1:19:17degrees, wrote in the Utah News
1:19:20Dispatch, uh I don't know if any of you
1:19:22know Elise Nelson, but she um she wrote
1:19:27that uh these data centers are going to
1:19:31become obsolete because there's
1:19:33something coming called eco computing
1:19:36where we're not going to take this
1:19:37information and send it to these data
1:19:40centers anymore. They're going to stay
1:19:41right where the computing happens and
1:19:45then it's time. So that data center is
1:19:47likely to become obsolete before it's
1:19:49even fitted. Ben, what do you say about
1:19:52that?
1:19:53I I really do share the concerns like
1:19:56look, the threats from AI are real. The
1:20:00threats of bad actors outside and within
1:20:02the US are real, right? And um there's a
1:20:06project that many people have brought
1:20:08up, the Mythos project that came through
1:20:10a few months ago, right, that identified
1:20:13thousands of day zero threats in
1:20:15operating systems, right? That would
1:20:16allow a foreign power to take advantage
1:20:18and steal data and manipulate things. So
1:20:20those are real threats, but I I
1:20:22appreciate this question because the the
1:20:25question we should be asking is does
1:20:26this kind of development reduce those
1:20:29threats? and talking to AI experts and
1:20:32energy experts their their conclusion is
1:20:34probably not and that we are
1:20:36experiencing an investment boom and part
1:20:38of why there has been so much urgency I
1:20:41can't speak to whether that was behind
1:20:42this project or not that nationwide we
1:20:45see so many applications going in for
1:20:47this because it looks like many
1:20:48investors are trying to cash out before
1:20:50that bubble pops when instead the mythos
1:20:54project made the leap forward not
1:20:56because we had the biggest data centers
1:20:58but beca because we had the best uh
1:21:00software engineers designing this
1:21:02approach, right? And to get back to this
1:21:04comment um from from the woman saying
1:21:07the American way, right? We are an open
1:21:09society. I think that that's really
1:21:11interesting. We aren't going to beat
1:21:12China by playing by their rules, right?
1:21:15By forcing these down the throats of
1:21:16different communities. Instead, we're
1:21:18going to be open. There'll be public
1:21:20private partnerships. There'll be
1:21:21innovation. And so, that's the question
1:21:23that we should be asking. Is this going
1:21:25to actually enhance national security or
1:21:27not? And I completely understand it.
1:21:29There are people of good faith who
1:21:31disagree and would say, "No, we
1:21:32absolutely are constrained by compute.
1:21:34We need to build out as fast as we can."
1:21:36My assessment is that that's not the
1:21:37case.
1:21:41>> Let's go uh in the back in the blue
1:21:42shirt.
1:21:45>> Yes. I'd really like to address the
1:21:47issue regarding heat from this system.
1:21:52It runs at 9 GW. But in order for to
1:21:55create 9 gawatt, you've got to burn
1:21:57methane to get the 9 gaw. That comes to
1:22:01a total of 18 gawatt
1:22:04being used in that valley. So the
1:22:06numbers that Rod Davis has presented are
1:22:10for the most part correct. And if anyone
1:22:12disagrees with me, come pop me because
1:22:15if you disagree with that, we might be
1:22:17off by a couple gigawatts, but 18 gawatt
1:22:21is a hell of amount of energy. and and
1:22:24they say, "Oh, we're going to save water
1:22:27by using a different cooling source."
1:22:29Guess what? That cooling source creates
1:22:31more heat. This is ridiculous. This is
1:22:34way too much carbon dioxide being dumped
1:22:37into our atmosphere. Way too much heat
1:22:40being dumped into this this valley. This
1:22:43is ridiculous that we're looking at 18
1:22:45gawatt of energy. And yes, the 24 or 23
1:22:50nuclear bombs per day is a correct
1:22:53number.
1:22:55>> Thank you for that comment. I want to be
1:22:56clear. I wasn't questioning Rob's
1:22:59analysis and his one of the points that
1:23:01he brought up that you've reiterated is
1:23:03it isn't just the consumption of the
1:23:05electricity. It's any of the
1:23:06inefficiencies in producing that
1:23:08electricity as well. It's all added in
1:23:11and it's all heat and it's all heat in
1:23:13that one area and it doesn't go anywhere
1:23:17and when UPNL creates our power, it
1:23:20spreads it out across the whole state.
1:23:22This does not get spread. It's all right
1:23:25there at that one single point. And and
1:23:28uh to that point, I I think it's really
1:23:30important uh I I appreciated when
1:23:32President Adams, for example, said,
1:23:34"Hey, let's scale back the physical
1:23:36footprint." But but what's more
1:23:38important than that is the scope of the
1:23:40electricity production and the server
1:23:43compute power because that's a
1:23:44thermodynamic reality that you can't get
1:23:46around. And so you're right to point out
1:23:48you either put that into the evaporation
1:23:50of water and the heat is taken up by
1:23:52that um uh heat of evaporation or you
1:23:56release it to the atmosphere and that's
1:23:58where you can have very substantial uh
1:24:00environmental impacts with with with the
1:24:02heat
1:24:03>> or you heat sink it into the aquifer and
1:24:06then you create the biggest the world's
1:24:10biggest bubbling
1:24:12right.
1:24:13>> There you go. All the hot springs get
1:24:14hotter for free.
1:24:17your drink.
1:24:17>> So, I think we'll take uh one one more
1:24:19question.
1:24:22>> Let's go right here in the front.
1:24:27So there I think has gone up and I I
1:24:31think it's not a good thing but I I want
1:24:33to um ask about other topics and other
1:24:38issues that we already know there's
1:24:39problems with water, air pollution,
1:24:42carbon, heat scorching, global warming,
1:24:46all these things but we haven't really
1:24:48talked about other problems and one of
1:24:50them is that there's a lot of toxic
1:24:53waste that gets created by data centers.
1:24:56Every two or three years all the CPUs
1:24:59need to be swapped out. That is all
1:25:01sorts of toxic waste. So there's an
1:25:03enormous problem of toxic waste that
1:25:06hasn't been considered. In addition,
1:25:09there isn't enough natural gas to power
1:25:11this thing. There's magical thinking
1:25:14about how much power is available in
1:25:16Wyoming and that's not available. I
1:25:19think there is a fictional military
1:25:23connections. The military land is 43
1:25:26miles away. And as best I can tell, it
1:25:28was only happening on May 4th. Bathroom
1:25:32public maps were re released without
1:25:35that military land being included. But I
1:25:38guess the one thing I want to talk about
1:25:39the most is my specialty. I'm an entire
1:25:42geology professor. I worked out in
1:25:44Valley. That area has three active
1:25:47normal faults. all of which could
1:25:50produce major catastrophic big
1:25:53earthquakes that could destroy all of
1:25:56the uh infrastructure, blow up the power
1:25:59plant potentially if bad things happen.
1:26:03>> Um and um these active normal faults are
1:26:08somewhat unusual, not that unusual,
1:26:10somewhat unusual, but they are spread
1:26:12across as much as five miles. They are
1:26:15under or near the site and every 200
1:26:18feet or so there is a fault underneath
1:26:21the site. Some of which may be active,
1:26:23some of which are not and many of them
1:26:25are active and so it would be very very
1:26:28hard to safely put a power plant with
1:26:32explosive uh materials in it and the
1:26:36data center across the site that has all
1:26:38of these structures under. In addition,
1:26:41there's a lot of pickup action that has
1:26:43occurred there and the western site is
1:26:46dominated by one of the largest active
1:26:48volcanoes that we have in the state of
1:26:49Utah. So, the geological hazards have
1:26:52not been considered either. And I'm
1:26:55wondering whether Ben or some of the
1:26:56other panelists who haven't had a chance
1:26:58to talk as much know of other risks and
1:27:02issues that we haven't discussed yet. I
1:27:04bet there are others that you know of
1:27:06that aren't risk yet. You know, toxic
1:27:08waste, all that. scoop of action blah
1:27:12blah blah all these issues. What else
1:27:14have you not considered?
1:27:20>> [laughter]
1:27:21>> potential other potential.
1:27:25>> There are a lot of
1:27:27[laughter]
1:27:28>> Oh, yeah.
1:27:29>> There are a lot of other potential risks
1:27:31we've talked about and I think you and I
1:27:33talked about drawing the water out and
1:27:36causing an earthquake just from drawing
1:27:39the water out and causing the inequity.
1:27:43Changes in water pressure do
1:27:46usually by increasing but it also
1:27:48happens when water pressure.
1:27:51>> Yeah, that is a major concern especially
1:27:52if you look at the petal studies from
1:27:56when the studies 1936 34 anyway those
1:28:01are very interesting studies.
1:28:05>> Um that is a concern.
1:28:08One other thing I I I
1:28:11did mention that no matter what we do,
1:28:14the water there's going to be
1:28:16contamination. There's going to be air
1:28:17contamination, land contamination, water
1:28:19contamination.
1:28:21We're looking at
1:28:24we're right on the fault line. That is
1:28:26an issue. The one thing I don't think
1:28:29we've understood or talked about enough
1:28:31is that if we do change this and make
1:28:33that an industrial area, we've lost what
1:28:36we have out there. It's pristine. It's
1:28:38austere, but it is sacred land. And we
1:28:41can't get that back. We take that away
1:28:43and play these games, we'll never get
1:28:46that back. And we may never get our
1:28:48safety back
1:28:50or our health or anything else we're
1:28:52giving away.
1:28:54>> And I don't disagree. I I I and I and I
1:28:58shared that the concerns if they you
1:29:00know if they as they come up
1:29:03again I think a lot of that is to still
1:29:06that as they do their geological tests
1:29:08as they move forward those are things
1:29:10that will
1:29:13>> should have been done before this is
1:29:14even brought up
1:29:15>> but again
1:29:16>> done to protect us all
1:29:18>> but but again they're they're not
1:29:21there there's no permit issue there's no
1:29:23ground being turned there's no because
1:29:24those tests haven't been So
1:29:26>> why we why have we bypassed EPHS?
1:29:28>> We haven't
1:29:29>> in preemptive before before
1:29:33>> we have we've gone through all the same
1:29:35EPHS we did not for any other
1:29:37development. I don't think so because
1:29:39this is national security China
1:29:41>> because they still have to be done
1:29:42again. We're still early in the process
1:29:44but
1:29:44>> should have been done before approval.
1:29:46>> Yeah, that's for sure.
1:29:49>> Where's the studies? I I I think we want
1:29:53to just keep uh keep the question here
1:29:56your focus. [laughter]
1:29:58Um and and I will say right as as Brig
1:30:00me me me me me me me me me me me me me
1:30:00me me me me me me me me mentioned right
1:30:01with a lot of these right this is kind
1:30:03of a pre-approval right we have
1:30:05additional opportunities for public
1:30:07comment in air quality permitting water
1:30:10qual water availability water quality
1:30:12all those things um but that's not to
1:30:14say that maybe we should have had more
1:30:16information on the front
1:30:17>> end
1:30:22>> um well you know I I wanted to speak
1:30:25just really briefly to this idea of what
1:30:26is the power source cuz this affects so
1:30:29much right we're talking about air
1:30:31quality water consumption also economics
1:30:34um 93% of all new power in built in the
1:30:38United States last year was solar and
1:30:40wind nationwide and that's because those
1:30:44technologies are economically dominant
1:30:46right they're outperforming and
1:30:47undercutting anything else and so one of
1:30:49the other red flags that I had about
1:30:51this project was why are we permitting
1:30:54and committing to natural gas as an
1:30:56energy source. Um, and people have said,
1:30:58"Oh, well, down the road we'll switch."
1:31:00All that that does is increase the cost
1:31:02of operations. And so, speaking about
1:31:04obsolescence, how is this data center
1:31:07going to compete if it's using more
1:31:08expensive and more polluting energy
1:31:10moving down the road? Um, but the, you
1:31:15know, I I feel I I I appreciate all of
1:31:19you being here and expressing including
1:31:22the hard feelings that we have. Um, just
1:31:25a few years ago, I was sued for $3
1:31:27million over the Utah Lake Islands
1:31:30project. I don't know if any of you
1:31:31heard about that. We wanted to build the
1:31:32world's largest islands in Utah Lake.
1:31:34And that put me through uh just a crazy
1:31:37roller coaster, right? Personally, me
1:31:39and my family. And today, looking back,
1:31:44I am grateful for that experience. And I
1:31:47actually think that our community in
1:31:48Utah Valley pulled together in a way
1:31:51that we hadn't before. And we had
1:31:54environmentalists and people that hated
1:31:56the new woke Utah flag standing arm in-
1:31:59arm working together to get answers to
1:32:02questions and to say this is our
1:32:05community and we have a say all along.
1:32:08And so my invitation I just want to
1:32:10reiterate please stay involved. Please
1:32:13stay engaged and let's not get cynical.
1:32:16The biggest myth is that your voice your
1:32:18voice doesn't matter and your vote
1:32:20doesn't matter. And what has already
1:32:22changed in this project, including what
1:32:24Kevin Olirri is saying about it, proves
1:32:26that's not the case. That actually we
1:32:28have a huge influence to determine the
1:32:31outcome of this. the fact that we can
1:32:33come together, people with very
1:32:34different views, sit here, speak
1:32:37respectfully, and you know, one outcome
1:32:39that I'd love to see is imagine if
1:32:41somebody like Brena were appointed to be
1:32:43that community representative to ensure
1:32:46that as the project is evaluated, as
1:32:49we're going to say, hey, are we meeting
1:32:50these standards, somebody's able to say,
1:32:52hey, I'm I've got questions about that,
1:32:54>> right?
1:32:55>> And that becomes more likely the more
1:32:57that we're involved constructively. And
1:33:00I appreciate tonight there were no
1:33:01threats, no shouts. Um this this really
1:33:05uh brings me a lot of hope. So just my
1:33:07personal thanks to all of you for the
1:33:09investment of time and trust.
1:33:12[applause]
1:33:16>> Let me just wrap up
1:33:18echoing that. First of all, thanks for
1:33:20having Jake. He brought me here on a
1:33:23whole different thing. He he lied to me.
1:33:24He told me I was going to come talk
1:33:26about housing. [laughter]
1:33:28I've worked for the last almost two
1:33:30years to get that housing bill passed in
1:33:32DC and spent seven, you know, more times
1:33:35a year out there lobbying to get housing
1:33:37going and and then it's this seriously.
1:33:41Thank you though for allowing me to be
1:33:43here and thank you for your voices. It
1:33:46again as a mayor it it means that it
1:33:50that's important to me. Transparency,
1:33:52your voices mean everything. And so,
1:33:55thank you for allowing me to come be
1:33:57here and not completely yelling at me
1:33:59while I'm here.
1:34:00>> Maybe to pass along. I'm afraid you have
1:34:03any closing thoughts.
1:34:04>> Go ahead, Bren. You can close. I don't
1:34:05have any thoughts. Do you want to see
1:34:07some?
1:34:08>> I don't. I serve just a minute ago.
1:34:10>> Thank you.
1:34:10>> Well, I'll just end by thank you all for
1:34:12being here and and choosing to spend
1:34:13this time and engage in these hard
1:34:15conversations. It's it's what it's all
1:34:17about.
1:34:19[applause]
1:34:27Thank you so much.

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