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Body Language Expert: Stop Using This, It’s Making People Dislike You, So Are These Subtle Mistakes! — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 35,207 words · 5,757 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Your brain is 12.5 times more likely to
0:02believe my gesture over my words. And
0:04that's because it is very hard to lie
0:06with our gestures. For example, you want
0:07to do an experiment with me? Okay, I
0:08want you to say five but hold up the
0:10number three.
0:12Five.
0:13Hard, right?
0:13Yeah, I had to think about them
0:14separately.
0:15This is why liars use less gestures. But
0:17knowing tools like that is critical if
0:19you're trying to set yourself up for
0:20success.
0:21And we're going to go through all of
0:22them?
0:22Oh, yeah.
0:23Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral
0:25investigator whose science-backed
0:26research from body language and
0:27micro-expressions to vocal tones and
0:29first impressions has revolutionized the
0:31way we build confidence and create more
0:32authentic relationships in every social
0:34and professional interaction.
0:35I'm a recovering awkward person. I
0:37thought that charisma was genetic and I
0:38didn't know how to have conversations. I
0:40didn't even know how to have friends.
0:42Then I discovered that highly successful
0:43people speak a hidden language and that
0:45is the language of cues. This is
0:47directly from the research. They know
0:48the blueprints to talk to anyone. They
0:50know that if you sit within 25 ft of a
0:53high performer, your own performance
0:55improves by 15% and that there's a
0:56direct correlation between confidence
0:58and anxiety and the distance between
0:59your shoulder and our earlobes.
1:01So interesting.
1:02They also know that 82% of our
1:03impressions of people are based on
1:05warmth and competence. So if you worry
1:07that people don't take you seriously,
1:08you have trouble getting raises, you
1:10feel anxious and overwhelmed, I have
1:11five power cues for confidence. But if
1:13you have ever been told you're
1:15intimidated, hard to talk to, I want you
1:16to use these five warmth cues. First,
1:20What about how to get a partner in terms
1:21of cues and body language?
1:23Let's start with a study that blew my
1:24mind. It's impossible to be attracted to
1:26someone who
1:28That's so crazy. Just such a small
1:29That one little thing.
1:32This has always blown my mind a little
1:33bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
1:36regularly haven't yet subscribed to this
1:38show. So could I ask you for a favor
1:40before we start? If you like this show
1:41and you like what we do here and you
1:42want to support us, the free simple way
1:44that you can do just that is by hitting
1:45the subscribe button. And my commitment
1:47to you is if you do that, then I'll do
1:49everything in my power, me and my team,
1:51to make sure that this show is better
1:52for you every single week. We'll listen
1:54to your feedback, we'll find the guests
1:56that you want me to speak to, and we'll
1:58continue to do what we do. Thank you so
1:59much.
2:03Vanessa Van Edwards.
2:06For someone that's just clicked on this
2:07conversation now,
2:09and they're wondering why they should
2:10stay and listen to what we're going to
2:12talk about, what would you say to them?
2:15Very highly successful people speak a
2:18hidden language, and that is the
2:19language of cues. If you don't know how
2:22to read the cues people are sending to
2:23you, if you don't know how to control
2:25the cues you're sending to others, you
2:27are missing a crucial element of
2:29success.
2:30How do you
2:31quantify that in a way that I know that
2:33it's true? Are there studies or stats
2:35that reinforce what you've just said?
2:3782% of our impressions of people are
2:40based on warmth and competence.
2:42That means that if we can control our
2:45warmth cues and our competence cues, we
2:48know we are taking care of 82% of our
2:50impression.
2:51And that is critical to be more
2:53memorable, to be more confident, having
2:54clear communication.
2:56And taking that a bit further, what
2:58areas of my life will that
2:59impact? So, if I'm warm and I'm
3:01competent, which you're telling me are
3:02things that I can control, what are the
3:05downstream consequences of that?
3:06So, I think my mission is to tackle a
3:09big lie.
3:10And that is that smart people
3:13will translate their book smarts into
3:14people smarts.
3:16But actually,
3:18your no matter how smart you are, if you
3:20do not know how to communicate with
3:21people,
3:22you can't connect with people, you can't
3:24have good relationships, you can't have
3:25supportive friendships, you get looped
3:27into difficult people or toxic people,
3:30you have trouble getting raises or
3:31promotions. When you are able to control
3:34your communication, it helps you not be
3:36overlooked, not be misunderstood, and
3:38that affects your friendships, your
3:39partner, your career, and it also helps
3:42you feel more confident walking into a
3:43room.
3:44And what is your research based on? Are
3:46you a researcher? Have you done this
3:48sort of first-party research yourself?
3:50Where where were you drawing from?
3:51So, I'm a recovering awkward person. So,
3:54I used to believe that
3:56you were either born with charisma or
3:58you weren't. That charisma was genetic.
4:00And in 2002, I discovered a study that
4:02changed my life, which said that
4:03charisma can be learned.
4:06This is when I started to tackle, to
4:09figure out, okay, if charisma can be
4:10learned, how do we learn it? How can we
4:12learn blueprints for conversation? How
4:14can we learn frameworks for how we
4:16connect and how we socialize? That's
4:18when I started doing my own research.
4:19So, I'm a behavioral researcher and a
4:21best-selling author on communication,
4:22and I specialize in helping very
4:25brilliant, very smart, awkward folks not
4:28be overlooked.
4:29And give me some sort of depth as to the
4:31amount of research and the quantity of
4:32research that you've done, how many
4:34people you studied, how many hours of
4:35footage, etc.
4:36Yep. So, I I developed my first
4:38framework about 12 years ago, and we've
4:40helped 400,000 students learn that
4:42framework, master it, and conquer
4:44awkwardness or feel more confident. Some
4:46of those folks had very professional
4:47goals, like getting raise or promotion.
4:49Other folks were so socially anxious and
4:52so awkward they couldn't make friends.
4:53Other people were looking for their
4:54soulmate or their partner. And so,
4:57400,000 students have told me that this
4:59framework works.
5:00Nobody teaches this this stuff today.
5:02Mhm.
5:03Or actually, extroverts tend to teach
5:06it. So, I read the quintessential How to
5:08Win Friends and Influence People back in
5:09the day, and that's a wonderful book,
5:11but it's a book written by an extrovert.
5:13If you are not naturally extroverted, I
5:15am not naturally extroverted, I'm more
5:17ambiverted, it is very hard to learn how
5:19to communicate if you don't naturally
5:21gravitate towards people.
5:23I was like, there has to be a way to
5:25teach introverts and ambiverts to be
5:26able to feel confident without having to
5:28fake it till you make it, without having
5:30to pretend to be extroverted or outgoing
5:32to be taken seriously or to be
5:33charismatic.
5:35What's an ambivert?
5:36Uh So, ambiverts get energy from the
5:39right people in the right places.
5:42So, for example, in this interview, I
5:43love one-on-one conversations. I feel
5:44myself. But if we were to go to a loud
5:46bar or a nightclub, I would completely
5:48shut down and want to be alone.
5:50Ambiverts can dial up extraversion to
5:52hit their goals. So, if they know they
5:54have to be friendly and meet people for
5:56an interview or position, they can do
5:58it. But, they need lots of recharge
6:00time. The reason why it's important to
6:02know if you're an ambivert is because
6:03you should know
6:05what are the people and places that
6:07drain you.
6:08There are certain people when you open
6:09your calendar and you look at it and
6:10you're like, "Oh, I have to be with that
6:13person."
6:14That is someone that drains you. They do
6:16not bring out your extraversion or your
6:17natural love of people. There are also
6:20certain people who you feel you could
6:21talk to for hours. They give you social
6:24energy. They charge your social battery.
6:26So, the very first thing I have students
6:27do is sit and make a list. Who are the
6:29people who give you energy, who charge
6:31you up?
6:32Who are the people who take from you?
6:34Those are people that we want to put
6:35boundaries around, we want to say no to,
6:37we want to limit as much as possible.
6:38And then also the places. Where do you
6:40thrive? Is it conferences, one-on-one
6:42business, or is it friends, socializing,
6:44parties? Knowing those helps you
6:46optimize your social battery.
6:48And when you say cues, which you said at
6:50the start of this conversation, people
6:51think of just body language. Is that the
6:53sort of full extent of areas that you
6:55focus on?
6:55Yes, so there So, there
6:57cues come into four different channels.
6:59There is body language, that's facial
7:01expressions, gestures, posture. But,
7:03there's also vocal. So, vocal cues are
7:06the tone of our voice, our pace, our
7:07volume, our cadence. There's also the
7:09words we use, obviously verbal cues, the
7:11types of words that I'm choosing to use
7:13are signaling my warmth and competence
7:15to you. And the last, the smallest
7:16channel is our ornaments. The colors we
7:18wear, the jewelry we wear, the way we
7:20wear our hair, we wear your facial hair.
7:22Those are also signaling different
7:24things or queuing people to feel a
7:26certain way about you.
7:28And what about what we say?
7:29Mhm.
7:30Because I know you're writing a book
7:31about I don't know if I can leak this,
7:32but here we go.
7:33Yeah, you can.
7:34You're writing a book about
7:36conversation, so what we say.
7:38Mhm.
7:38So, I did not realize how powerful our
7:41words are. And here's a study that
7:42really changed the way I think about
7:44this.
7:44Very simple study. They brought people
7:46into the lab and they split them up into
7:47two different groups. In one group, they
7:50said, "Today, you're going to play the
7:52community game." And they played kind of
7:54a prisoner's dilemma type of game.
7:55The second group, they came into the
7:57same
7:58room, the same researcher, and they
7:59said, "Good morning. Today, you're going
8:01to play the Wall Street game." The trick
8:03was, the games were exactly the same.
8:05There was no difference between the two
8:06games.
8:07What they found was everyone who was
8:08told they were playing the Wall Street
8:10game shared an average of 1/3 of their
8:12profits.
8:14Everyone who was told they were playing
8:15the community game shared an average of
8:172/3 of their profits.
8:19This means that that one word, community
8:22game, community, made people think and
8:25feel more about community. It made them
8:27act more collaboratively.
8:29This means that the words we're using in
8:30our emails, our subjects, our texts, our
8:32LinkedIn profile headlines, are queuing
8:35people for how they should treat us.
8:37One really simple way to think about
8:39this is your calendar.
8:40I send out calendar invites multiple
8:42times a week to clients, to friends.
8:45When we have meeting,
8:46one-on-one, call, video, interview,
8:50I'm being queued for nothing. Those
8:52words are so overused, they're sterile.
8:54If you add cues that prime people to
8:57feel or think a certain way,
8:59you're actually setting them up for
9:00success. So, 2025 wins, collaborative
9:03session, strategy meeting, goal meeting,
9:06goal overview, teamwork collab session.
9:09Those words are actually queuing that
9:11person's brain every single time they
9:12open their calendar, that when we read
9:14the a word like collaborate, we are
9:16literally more likely to be
9:18collaborative.
9:19So, the words that we use, even one
9:21single word, can actually change the way
9:22people think.
9:24It's funny because our entire lives are
9:26people. Like the difference between me
9:28being a
9:29president, prime minister,
9:31superb salesperson, exceptional
9:33entrepreneur is probably just my
9:35understanding of other people and how I
9:36show up in my words and my cues.
9:39And so when you think about it like
9:40that, this could be for many people
9:44the most important subject for them to
9:46improve upon.
9:48I would even go further and say, if you
9:50don't have people skills, you cannot
9:52succeed. You cannot succeed in life, you
9:54cannot succeed in love, you cannot
9:56succeed in business. It doesn't matter
9:57how smart you are, you need people to
10:00have success.
10:01So this is I think the most fundamental
10:03skill that people can invest in.
10:05And how many people did you say you've
10:06taught people skills to?
10:07400,000 students.
10:09And is there a particular case study
10:10that you stands out to you as being the
10:12most
10:13extreme in terms of
10:16case studying the fact that someone can
10:17go from zero to
10:19a wonderful place?
10:20Yes, and it's my very brilliant, but
10:24stoic, students. So I've noticed,
10:27especially over the last 10 years, cuz
10:29I've been doing this for about 17 years.
10:31In the last 10 years especially, my most
10:33extreme students are the students who
10:35are very, very smart, very talented and
10:37good at what they do, but they don't
10:39know what cues to send, and so they
10:41completely shut down. They try to become
10:43stoic, unreadable, they try to have no
10:45facial expressions, they literally try
10:47to poker face all the time. And as they
10:50try to make connections, meet a partner,
10:53make friends, people don't like them,
10:55people don't trust them, they can't get
10:56buying into their ideas.
10:58And those are the students where I see
10:59the biggest transformation. They don't
11:01realize that muting muting your cues is
11:04a danger zone cue. If you try to be
11:07stoic and unreadable, people literally
11:09cannot get a read on you.
11:11And so my biggest transformations have
11:12happened when I can say, you don't need
11:14to hide your true feelings. It's about
11:16amplifying them with the right cues.
11:18There's a famous example of this, Jamie
11:20Siminoff, founder of Ring.
11:22So I don't know if you ever watch Shark
11:24Tank.
11:24Yeah.
11:25So in this episode, for those who
11:26haven't seen it, Jamie Siminoff entered
11:28the tank, and he pitched a
11:29billion-dollar idea.
11:31Literally a billion-dollar idea, it went
11:33on to raise funding from Shaq and
11:35Richard Branson. But in the tank he
11:37pitches the idea and he gets so much
11:39push back and so much negotiation and he
11:41walks out of the tank without a deal. In
11:42fact, the sharks did not like him.
11:45What happened? He had the billion
11:47billion dollar idea but he did not know
11:48how to share it.
11:49This is the biggest transformation I see
11:51is people who have brilliant ideas,
11:53they're good people, they're hard
11:54working people and they cannot get
11:56buy-in. They cannot make friends, they
11:58cannot find partners.
11:59How do they feel? So if you had to say
12:01words that make them feel seen right
12:03now, how are they feeling as they're
12:05listening to this?
12:06Overwhelmed.
12:08Getting into interaction, just social
12:10overthinking, not knowing what to do,
12:11not knowing what to feel.
12:13Underestimated, like people don't see
12:15you or the real potential that you have.
12:17A lack of confidence
12:19and fear.
12:20Afraid that if you are your true self or
12:23you try any things we're talking about,
12:25people won't like you.
12:26And I want to teach you that you can be
12:29yourself and you can be liked and you
12:31can find your people. And that doesn't
12:32mean everyone's going to like you, but
12:34it means if you signal the right things,
12:35cues tell others how to treat you.
12:38If you signal the right cues, you will
12:39find your people.
12:41One of the things that I was sort of
12:42inferring from what you said is the
12:44importance of understanding your resting
12:46face.
12:47That's like the term we use in the UK,
12:49resting face, which is like when
12:50you're just listening or doing nothing.
12:52Like how does your face look?
12:54Yes.
12:54And you're telling me that's really
12:55really important.
12:56It's real. So I call it resting bothered
12:58face cuz I I have resting bothered face.
13:00Resting bothered face, RBF, same thing.
13:02Okay, this is a real phenomenon, which
13:04is that all of us have different faces
13:07at rest. Now I want you to look at my
13:08face for a second. My face at rest, I'm
13:11a I'm going to rest it for a second. My
13:13mouth angles down in sort of an upside
13:15down U, so it looks like this.
13:17You see how these are going down?
13:18Yeah.
13:20Are you laughing at my U?
13:22A little bit.
13:23Okay. So at rest, I look a little sad.
13:26Yeah.
13:26That is just my mouth at rest. Yours
13:28goes pretty straight across.
13:29I just I just
13:30You have a lot of hood. That's what
13:32that's called. A lot of hood. This is
13:33hood. Yes. Yes. So, that probably makes
13:35you Do people think you're angry or
13:37tired?
13:37Both.
13:38Both. Okay. People never call me angry.
13:40They call me sad. You need to look in
13:41the mirror and figure out what is the
13:43default of your face. If your mouth
13:45angles down into a frown, people are
13:46going to think you're sad. You're going
13:47to have to be counteracting that with
13:49your cues. If you have a lot of hood
13:51above your eyes or you have these two
13:52vertical lines that appear between your
13:54eyebrows. You actually don't have them,
13:55but if people Some of you at rest even
13:56have those two lines, people are going
13:58to think you're angry or frustrated.
14:00If you have down eyes, so I don't know
14:01if you notice, but my I have cat I've
14:03added cat makeup to my eye.
14:04Ah, yes.
14:05Yes. That actually makes me look less
14:07less sad cuz also my eyes slope a little
14:09bit down at the end, which makes me look
14:11sad.
14:12Okay.
14:12So, people often are like, "Are you
14:13okay? Are you tired?" I'm like, "No,
14:16that's just my face." So, I have ways
14:19that I counteract it. One, I get to use
14:20makeup, which is a great thing, but
14:22second, I know that I need to make my
14:25face a little bit more up, right? So,
14:27when I am in our interacting with
14:29someone when I'm on a video or an
14:30interview, I typically
14:32rest my face in an upward position. I've
14:33activated these muscles. So, don't I
14:34look happier?
14:35You do, but you have Have you got to
14:37consciously tell yourself to do that or
14:38do you just always remember?
14:40No, I have to consciously tell myself to
14:41do that. Now, I only need to do that
14:43with people with their first impression
14:45or when I'm trying to make a good
14:46impression. My team knows that I'm not
14:47sad, right? Like my team, they see me
14:49all the time. They see me without
14:50makeup. They know that I'm not sad. They
14:51know that's just my face. So, here's
14:52what's critical. One, you should know
14:54what is your resting default. Are you
14:56looking sad, angry, or afraid? Oh, the
14:59afraid I didn't do. So, if you have um
15:01you actually have some. I'm so sorry.
15:02Are you joking?
15:03sorry. I'm so sorry. You have these
15:05lines
15:05laugh in the back?
15:07One of my team just laughed in the back.
15:08So, you have them just right here, these
15:10light lines here. So, um when we are
15:12afraid, we go
15:14and we raise our eyebrows up and our You
15:16can't see it cuz I have Botox on my
15:17forehead, but um if you got There you
15:19go. There you go. That's for now. Now,
15:20open your eyes and go
15:22That's afraid. So, the more you have
15:24those lines in the whites of your eyes
15:25appear like if you ever seen someone
15:26kind of walk around like a deer in the
15:28headlights?
15:28Yeah.
15:29They make you feel anxious. Like if I
15:30were to do my entire interview a little
15:32bit wide-eyed, you would not only feel
15:33anxious but you wouldn't believe what I
15:34was saying. So, you all should see if
15:35you have this default lines or if the
15:37whites of your eyes show. Look at your
15:39profile pictures. In your profile
15:41pictures, here are the three biggest
15:42mistakes people make. One,
15:44they're showing fear eyes.
15:45Yeah.
15:47Yeah.
15:48So, people you are signaling
15:50accidentally anxiety. So, try to make
15:52sure you're not showing the upper
15:54whites. Second mistake you will do is
15:55they make a contempt micro expression.
15:57So,
15:58that's a one-sided mouth raise. So, just
16:00do a one-sided mouth raise for me.
16:02Doesn't make you kind of feel like
16:03better than. Don't do it for too long.
16:05So, if you do it at home, you'll there's
16:06a facial feedback hypothesis. When you
16:08make these faces, it actually triggers
16:10the emotion. Just like when you have the
16:11emotion, it triggers the face. There's a
16:12loop that happens. So, if people make
16:15the contempt expression, one-sided mouth
16:18raise,
16:19not only do they look scornful, kind of
16:21disdained, they actually begin to feel
16:22better than and scornful. So, do not do
16:24an asymmetrical smile in your profile
16:26picture. You are accidentally signaling
16:28negativity.
16:30The third biggest mistake you will make
16:32is they do an inauthentic smile in their
16:34picture.
16:36The only true indicator of happiness is
16:38when these cheek muscles are activated.
16:40Anyone can fake smile. This is what mine
16:41looks like.
16:44But you have seen people do it, right?
16:47Yeah, I do it.
16:48Yeah, and people know. I would rather
16:50you not.
16:50No, cuz I I just don't have a good
16:52smile.
16:52What?
16:53Look.
16:54Like what am I going to
16:55Am I going to say no, it's all horrible?
16:57Is
16:58Do you know I don't have a good smile.
16:59So, I literally have to do this when I
17:00take face.
17:03Okay, that's my smile.
17:04I can't even keep thing. I tried to What
17:06am I going to do?
17:07Well, you can smile without your teeth
17:08as long as it hits your upper cheek
17:09muscles. So, try Just try this for me.
17:10Put your pen or your finger in between
17:12your mouth like this.
17:13And try out how high you can go.
17:15Oh, that's better.
17:17That reaches all the way up into your
17:18eyes. Do you see?
17:19Oh, that's not.
17:20That looks so much better. If you can
17:22activate these muscles in your profile
17:24picture, you don't have to walk around
17:25like that. But if you can act Not the
17:27fear. Not the fear. Just here.
17:29Just here.
17:31If you can activate these muscles in
17:32your profile picture, it shows authentic
17:33happiness or don't smile at all. I hate
17:36the advice
17:38just smile more.
17:40Fake smiles do not work. Dr. Barbara
17:42Wild studied this. She took pictures of
17:44people thinking of something they were
17:46authentically happy about, took a
17:47picture of them smiling, then she told
17:49them to fake smile and took a picture of
17:50them. On the surface, you really
17:52couldn't tell the difference between the
17:53two smiles. They looked very similar.
17:55But she had participants take mood
17:57tests,
17:58then look at the picture Look at one
17:59picture or the other, group A, group B.
18:01People who saw the positive picture had
18:03an improved mood.
18:05They caught the happiness from the
18:07photo. People who looked at the fake
18:09smile had no mood change.
18:11This means I would rather you have no
18:12smile at all or be neutral than fake
18:15smile. But if you can smile in your
18:16picture, it is so great for authentic
18:19happiness.
18:20It sounds like it might be quite
18:22exhausting for some people because I
18:24think some people, although they they're
18:26happy, they feel good, they're nice
18:28people, they do have that resting
18:30bothered face, I think you called it.
18:32And there's other people that I know
18:34that just kind of walk through life with
18:35this like resting smile. Like we can all
18:37think of that person that's just like
18:38always happy.
18:39Yeah.
18:40And then there's the other people who
18:41are like objectively happy, too, but
18:42they just have that resting bothered
18:43face. So, it feels like life is going to
18:45be more exhausting for those people.
18:47You know, I think it's about choosing
18:48your hard.
18:49Right? It is hard. It is exhausting for
18:52me to show up to a meeting when I'm in a
18:53good mood and have someone be like, "Are
18:55you sad and tired? Are you okay?" I'm
18:58like, "I'm fine." I find that
18:59exhausting.
19:01Is it also a little exhausting to make
19:02sure that in my first impression I'm
19:05being a little bit more up with my face,
19:06open eyes wide and open mouth? Little
19:08less exhausting than that. So, I think
19:10you have to choose What are the you're
19:12going to purposefully act. There are 97
19:14cues. I've narrowed down 97 that I think
19:16are the most important. You get to make
19:18your own recipe. You don't have to do
19:19all the cues. If smiling is not your
19:21thing, smiling is not essential for
19:24being charismatic.
19:25When we talk about being charismatic,
19:27it's about being warm and competent. And
19:29you have 97 cues to choose from to make
19:31that warmth and competence recipe. And
19:33so, you don't have to be a bubbly
19:35extrovert to be charismatic. You can be
19:36a quiet, powerful introvert. You can be
19:39a compassionate, empathetic healer.
19:41Those look different. And so, I think
19:44it's less exhausting to find your recipe
19:46and to use those cues a lot. Like
19:47there's certain cues in my book that I
19:49teach that I don't use. They just don't
19:50feel natural to me. But there are other
19:52cues where I'm like,
19:55Has anyone ever done any really
19:56compelling studies on this idea of
19:57resting face or resting bothered
19:59face as you call it?
20:00There is research on resting bothered
20:01face and there are certain people who
20:04when people see pictures of their face
20:06at rest, they assume a mood change.
20:09In other words, when there are certain
20:10people at rest where you look at them,
20:11they look neutral. But there are certain
20:13a certain percent of the population when
20:14you look at them, they look angry, sad,
20:15or afraid. So, it's real.
20:17And there are some people you look at
20:18and they look happy and
20:20make you happy.
20:20Very few people have happy resting face,
20:22though. You either look neutral or
20:24bothered.
20:25So, you said you were a recovering
20:26awkward person.
20:27Yes.
20:28Take me into what you were like.
20:29Oh,
20:29And what what do you mean when you say
20:30awkward person?
20:32I really wanted to go it alone. I was
20:34really overwhelmed by people and
20:36interactions. I didn't know what to do
20:37with my hands. I didn't know what to
20:38say. I felt like I missed a memo that
20:42everyone got on conversation.
20:44I always felt like I was saying the
20:45wrong things. I had all these awkward
20:47silences. And then what would happen is
20:48I would try to overcompensate by sharing
20:51a ridiculous story or talking too much
20:53or completely shutting down. And I kind
20:54of
20:55like wavered between completely shutting
20:57down and being overwhelmed and talking
20:59too much and saying too much and just
21:01verbal vomiting all over everyone.
21:03And so, I shut down. And in college,
21:06especially, I just felt so left out.
21:08Like I just felt so lonely. And I don't
21:11know if anyone watching is feeling
21:12lonely.
21:13I thought it was all my fault. I was
21:15like, I missed the memo. I don't know
21:17how to have conversations. I don't even
21:19know how to have friends.
21:21That's what it felt like. That I
21:23desperately wanted to make connections,
21:26but I had no idea how to level up a new
21:29person to a friendship.
21:32I had no idea how that path happened. I
21:34had no idea how to have a conversation
21:36with someone, share something real, and
21:38then have a real interaction back. And
21:40so it was really lonely and
21:42overwhelming.
21:43And what was the catalyst for you to go
21:45on this journey?
21:46I was in college, and there was a group
21:49paper assigned.
21:51And you had like five people, and
21:52everyone had to do five pages. And I
21:54went to the professor and I said, "I
21:56will write double the amount of pages if
21:58I can work by myself."
22:01And he was like, "Vanessa,
22:02the point of the paper is not the paper.
22:05It's working with the people."
22:07And I was like, and I started to cry in
22:09his office. I was like that student. I
22:10was like, I I don't know how. And he was
22:13like, "Vanessa, you're very good at
22:15science. You're very good at breaking
22:17things down. What if you studied for
22:19people like you study for chemistry?"
22:23That was like an aha moment for me. He
22:25said, "Why don't you study good
22:27conversation? Why don't you study the
22:29popular kids? Why don't you look at what
22:30are they doing in conversation that's
22:32working? Study it like it's a science."
22:35And hence my brand was it was called
22:36Science of People. That's when I
22:38realized, okay, didn't come naturally to
22:40me, but maybe there's research on actual
22:43things I can do with my body, things I
22:44can do, I can say verbally, questions
22:46that work that will help me learn this
22:49the other way. Turning soft skills into
22:51hard skills. That's when I started
22:52creating my first conversational
22:53blueprints. That's when I started
22:55creating my conversation formula. It and
22:57it started to work. I started to try out
22:59these kind of tiny experiments, and I
23:01actually started to feel like myself,
23:04make more friends. It was tools. I had
23:07to use tools to be able to connect cuz
23:08it did not come naturally to me.
23:11Was it fixed from day one?
23:13No.
23:14So, it was a journey?
23:15It was a real journey. Yeah.
23:16I think that's important cuz often
23:17people think, you know, read the book,
23:19get the tips and tricks and you're
23:21you're changed and you're fixed. You
23:22talk about, I think, later in your life
23:24where you went to a dinner party and
23:26your husband
23:28uh was there with you and you went home
23:29and told him that you thought everyone
23:30was angry at you.
23:31Yeah.
23:32When was that?
23:33That was probably maybe four or five
23:35years later.
23:35Okay.
23:36So, I started mostly with conversation.
23:38That was sort of my my first tool I
23:41needed is questions I wanted to ask,
23:43first impressions, and how to close
23:44conversation very practically.
23:46I also realized about five years later
23:48at my I married my college sweetheart,
23:50so I've been with my husband for a long
23:51time and he said to me, "You always
23:54think everyone's angry at you."
23:56I was like, "Isn't everyone angry at
23:57me?"
23:59And I realized there are certain people
24:01who misinterpret neutral facial
24:03expressions as negative.
24:05I have this problem. So, I will see a
24:07neutral expression on someone and assume
24:10they are angry or afraid or stressed or
24:12don't like me. And that was creating
24:14this really bad loop because when you
24:16think someone doesn't like you, you shut
24:17down and become more unlikable.
24:19There was a study I discovered right
24:21around this time. Um this is done by uh
24:24Dr. Van Sloan. He wanted to know what
24:27makes popular kids popular.
24:29Very cle- clever study. He studied
24:30thousands of high school students across
24:32a variety of high schools looking for
24:33patterns. Why is it that some kids
24:36across these grades and ages are really
24:38popular? He had all the kids ranked
24:40across all these schools. He had them
24:41look at traits and then he guessed what
24:43made the popular kids popular. Were they
24:45more athletic? Were they more
24:46attractive? Were they funnier? Were they
24:48smarter? What was it? Can you guess?
24:51What was it?
24:51Mhm.
24:56Uh I'm So, I'm just basing this the kids
24:58that were popular in my school.
25:00Um, they were funnier, they were
25:03self-deprecating to some degree, they
25:05were
25:06good at
25:07they were
25:08remotely good at some sports, maybe. Um,
25:12they were funny, happy, I don't know.
25:13What do you
25:14Okay, so
25:15he found that the most popular kids
25:17across the one single variable that was
25:20hold held true across all the different
25:21students was the most popular kids had
25:24the longest list of people they liked.
25:27So, when he asked one of the questions
25:28of the survey was, "Who do you like?"
25:30They had the longest lists.
25:33And when he looked at their day-to-day,
25:34they had micro moments of liking.
25:38They would go down the hallway and be
25:39like, "Hey, Chad."
25:41"Hey, Chelsea." "Hey, Sarah."
25:44They liked so many people, and that in
25:46turn made them more likable.
25:49This showed me that being likable is in
25:52our control.
25:53Being likable means you have to be first
25:55liker.
25:56If you set out to like more people, you
25:59become more likable.
26:01And that was a really big shift for me
26:02because for so long I thought it was all
26:04about me. It's a very selfish way to be,
26:06right? I was like, "I better be
26:07impressive, I better be funny."
26:09But actually, what makes us likable is
26:11just liking as many people as possible.
26:13I was laughing as you were speaking cuz
26:15I was just playing out all the different
26:16sort of personas of people listening
26:18right now. I just had this one with the
26:19sign of the person sitting at home who
26:21just like slumped over cuz they realized
26:23they hate everybody.
26:24Like, when you said that they're just
26:25like, "Fuck, I hate everybody."
26:27Look, I get it. I get it. I get it. I
26:29also think that if you hate everyone, if
26:31that's you, let me try to convince you
26:33for a second.
26:34It could be because you're asking the
26:35wrong questions.
26:37Okay.
26:37I think I fell into that camp.
26:39I don't need people. I don't like
26:41people. I was very much in that camp for
26:43the first couple of years. Why? Because
26:45I had terrible interactions and terrible
26:47conversations. It was awkward, of course
26:48I didn't like people. But I was also
26:49asking the wrong questions, and I was
26:51telling the wrong stories. I was trying
26:53to be impressive.
26:54The best way to be impressive, to be
26:56likable, is to help people impress you.
26:59Is to make them feel so liked that they
27:01begin to like you back.
27:03It's aggressively liking.
27:05So, that means that when you're with
27:06someone, you should be constantly giving
27:08them verbal and nonverbal assurances of
27:10how much you want to like them.
27:13Watch them change. Watch your
27:15relationships transform.
27:17So, I make it a policy of aggressively
27:19liking people. So, I have um three
27:21phrase magic phrases for likability. Can
27:23I hit some to you?
27:24Please.
27:25Okay, so I want you to use these as many
27:26times as you can. Three magic phrases
27:28for likability. One, I was just thinking
27:30of you.
27:31Okay, so here's how you use this
27:32authentically, right?
27:34You think of a lot of people in your
27:35life all the time.
27:36Yeah.
27:37If you are thinking of someone and you
27:39can text them, text them, I was just
27:40thinking of you, how are you?
27:42I was just thinking of you, how'd that
27:43project go? I was just thinking of you,
27:45it has been a while since we talked. Or,
27:47and better, you see a movie, you see a
27:49documentary, you see a matcha latte, you
27:51see a mug, you see a ceramic candle, and
27:53you're like, "Ah, this made me think of
27:55you."
27:56So, my text messages, my conversations
27:58are full of actual moments where I was
28:00triggered to think of that person,
28:02actually, that this thing made me think
28:04of you. Or, I was just thinking of you,
28:06I wanted to ask you about.
28:08If you don't think of someone, they're
28:10not a person you need to have in your
28:11life.
28:12Okay, so that's number one.
28:13That's number one.
28:13I want to pause on number one cuz I've
28:14got a some sort of questions to ask
28:16here.
28:16Yes.
28:17It sounds exhausting. It sounds like
28:19it's going to cost me a lot of time that
28:20I don't necessarily have. And this is
28:22just my like my surface level reaction
28:24was Oh god, another job.
28:27Do you know what I mean?
28:28I just I like if I've got to set aside
28:30an hour to like text everyone I know and
28:31go, I was just thinking of you, it's
28:33going to be exhausting. I've got like
28:34six friends and I've got my my partner
28:37and I've got my family and my team. It's
28:39a lot It's a lot.
28:40Then just them. And also, it doesn't
28:42take an hour when you're like, "Oh,
28:43stainless steel mug, this made me think
28:45of you."
28:46Right? Like you're only doing it when
28:48it's actually naturally occurring to
28:49you. I don't want you to sit at your
28:51desk and be like, "I'm due for some I
28:53was just thinking of yous." No, this
28:55happens in the wild.
28:56Okay.
28:56You're watching a documentary, you're at
28:58a restaurant, you're on the bus, you're
29:00like, "Oh, that reminds me of this
29:01person." Quick text. That is less work
29:05than missing an old friend and not
29:07knowing what to say.
29:09It is less work to see something in real
29:11life or have a thought of like, "I
29:12wonder how Sarah is."
29:14and reaching out to them than "I miss
29:16Sarah, but I'm not going to reach out to
29:17her."
29:19It's also less work when you see someone
29:21and you haven't seen them in a while or
29:22they're a friend of a friend or they're
29:23that casual coworker relationship and
29:25you're like, "What do I say?" I think
29:27it's a lot of work to go up to that
29:28person and be like,
29:30"How was your weekend?"
29:32I think that's a lot of work. I think
29:33boring small talk is a lot of work. If
29:35you actually thought of them to say,
29:37"You know, I know you love dolphins. I
29:39saw this dolphin documentary on Netflix.
29:40Have you seen it? I was just thinking of
29:42you. Made me think of you."
29:43I've got another concern. Also, if I
29:45if I start firing out these WhatsApp
29:47messages telling people when I'm
29:48thinking of them, it's just going to be
29:49it's going to be opening up loads of
29:50conversations that I then have to deal
29:52with. Do you know what I mean? Like,
29:53it's going to be like, "Hey, I was just
29:54thinking of you." and then they reply,
29:55they go, "Oh, how how are you?" and I
29:57go, "I'm good, thanks." and then they
29:58go, I go, "How are you?" they go, "I'm
30:00good, thanks."
30:01And then Do you know what I mean? And
30:02then they might ask me
30:03I don't believe in asking how are you.
30:05Okay.
30:05That's a whole other thing. This is a
30:07good test.
30:08If you are worried that they're going to
30:10start a conversation that's going to
30:11bore you and feel like work, they're not
30:14a close friend.
30:15So, don't text them. Okay.
30:17It's a very good test. If there's
30:18someone where you're like,
30:20"I don't really want to hear how they
30:21are."
30:21Yeah.
30:22Don't text them.
30:23Okay.
30:23This is for the people who you want to
30:25level up with. There are three levels of
30:27intimacy.
30:29People who you kind of know, you know
30:30their personal you know their general
30:32traits, where they work, where they
30:33live, what they do, that's it. You don't
30:35want to go any deeper with them. Level
30:36two people are people where they know
30:38your personal concerns, you know their
30:39goals, their motivations, their
30:41personality traits, their worries.
30:43Those are people you want to invest in.
30:45And there's a last level, which is the
30:46most deep level, which is called self
30:47narrative, which is the story we tell
30:49ourselves about ourselves.
30:51If you categorize your relationships,
30:52another activity I love for my students
30:54to do
30:55is make those three levels on a piece of
30:56paper.
30:57Write down the 20 people you can think
30:59of, the top 20 people you spend the most
31:00time with. Where do they fall?
31:02So, we have acquaintances, we have
31:04Acquaintances who just kind of know,
31:05"Where you from? What do you do?" The
31:07basics.
31:08Yeah, right.
31:08And by the way, some of the people who
31:10you're close with might you might not be
31:11deep with.
31:12Yeah, true.
31:13Right?
31:14Level two, personal concerns. Could they
31:16tell you, "What is your Steven biggest
31:18goal right now?"
31:19Okay. And then the middle layer I didn't
31:20understand.
31:21That's the middle layer. That's the
31:22middle layer. So, so it's general
31:23traits, personal concerns, self
31:25narrative.
31:26What's self narrative?
31:27So, this is what my next book is about.
31:28I'm doing research on it right now. Self
31:30narrative is the story you tell yourself
31:32about yourself.
31:33So, is this a group of people?
31:34It's the levels of intimacy you are with
31:37someone. So, would your partner
31:38Oh, okay.
31:39No.
31:41The story you tell yourself about
31:42yourself. I'll give you an example.
31:4320% she would.
31:44I think so.
31:45So, I think that there are basically
31:48three main types of narratives, and you
31:50should know what these are for the
31:51closest people in your life. Maybe only
31:52two or three. You should also know what
31:54it is for yourself.
31:55The best one is a hero narrative. This
31:57is
31:58I worked really hard. I've had some
32:00challenges and mistakes, but I've
32:02overcome with hard work and smarts, and
32:04now I am where I am.
32:06Every version of their story, their
32:07career, their life, their relationships
32:09is that same narrative over and over
32:11again.
32:12Then there's what I think is called the
32:14healer narrative. Again, I'm doing
32:15research on this for my next book. The
32:16healer narrative, their story is all
32:18about helping others. They typically are
32:20in careers of service, of helping
32:23others, physical therapists, nurses,
32:26health care.
32:27Their story is, "How can I be more
32:28helpful?" They tend to have a problem
32:30though if you're in a relationship with
32:31a with a healer is they always put other
32:33people's needs before them themselves.
32:35They're
32:35Do they have some kind of historic
32:37trauma?
32:38They can.
32:39And a lot of the times they were put in
32:40a position of caretaking too early.
32:43Like they were told that you are a value
32:45if you can caretake. You're a value if
32:47you put your needs last. So they tend to
32:49be people-pleasers. They tend to say yes
32:51to everything. You have to be careful if
32:52you work with a healer because they are
32:54great to work with. They help, help,
32:56help, but they say yes to too much. So a
32:58healer is the middle one. The last one
33:00is victim narrative.
33:02Victim narrative, no matter what,
33:03personal, professional, love life,
33:05taxes, they have the same narrative.
33:08I experienced challenges and mistakes
33:10and I didn't overcome. No matter how
33:12hard I work, no matter how smart I am,
33:14the world is against me.
33:16So question I ask people to begin to
33:18uncover their self-narratives, do you
33:20feel lucky?
33:21Do you feel lucky?
33:22I feel very lucky.
33:23I also feel very lucky.
33:24Yeah.
33:25People who have a resounding yes to I
33:27feel lucky are more likely heroes or or
33:30healers.
33:31People who say I don't feel lucky, I
33:32feel very unlucky are typically victims.
33:35Dr. Richard Wiseman did a study. He
33:37asked people to perceive their own luck.
33:39How lucky do you feel?
33:41Then he gave them a challenge. He gave
33:42them a newspaper and he said, "I want
33:44you to count the amount of images in
33:46this newspaper."
33:47They sat with the newspaper and they
33:48counted all the images, but there was a
33:50trick. There's always a trick in these
33:51studies. On the second page of the
33:53newspaper in big print it said, "Stop
33:56counting. There are 42 images in this
33:58newspaper."
33:59Almost all of the people who perceived
34:01themselves as lucky saw the ad, closed
34:04the paper, and gave it back. So there
34:05are 42 images.
34:06Almost none of the unlucky people did.
34:09The unlucky people missed the ad and
34:12kept counting, spent a lot of time, and
34:14made more mistakes.
34:15This means that if you think of yourself
34:17as lucky, you literally see more
34:20opportunities.
34:21If you think of yourself as unlucky, you
34:23miss them.
34:25Is it possible to change how you see
34:26yourself?
34:27I do believe in a growth mindset. So I
34:29do believe that if you if this is
34:32resonating with you and like you're like
34:33uh-oh,
34:34I feel unlucky. I might have this victim
34:36self narrative.
34:37I do believe it's possible to change
34:40your perception of yourself. And that's
34:42starting with small moments of heroism.
34:45I think that changing your people
34:47skills, saying I don't like people and
34:49saying I'm going to find a way to like
34:50people. Saying I'm bad at conversation,
34:52I'm going to find a way to be good at
34:53conversation. To say I'm an awkward
34:55person, no I'm a recovering awkward
34:56person.
34:57If we can begin to take those tiny
34:59experiments and change them one by one,
35:01we begin to have small moments of
35:02heroism and that's how we change our
35:04self narrative.
35:05As an employer, I think about this a
35:06lot. These sort of verbal and nonverbal
35:08cues. I actually had an interview
35:10sometime ago and I think I came out of
35:12the interview and I think
35:14objectively the person might have been
35:15qualified, but there was something about
35:18their energy or cues or something that
35:21signaled something else to me that they
35:22were
35:23an unhappy person or they were tired or
35:26they didn't really want to be here or
35:28something like that. Are there any
35:29studies that confirm that our hidden
35:33communication is driving our success in
35:35the working environment?
35:37Yes. So, this study blew my mind. It's
35:4158,000 working hours over 11 different
35:44companies. So, a huge amount of amount
35:46of data.
35:47They wanted to know if low performers
35:50infect the people around them and if
35:52high performers infect the people around
35:54them.
35:54What they found was if you sit within 25
35:57ft of a high performer, your own
36:00performance improves by 15%.
36:04Here's the kicker. If you sit within 25
36:06ft of a low performer, your own
36:09performance decreases by 30%.
36:12This means that our negative emotions
36:14are more contagious. That if you're
36:17around people who are low performers,
36:19whatever that means to you, who have
36:20negative cues, who are feeling anxious
36:22or tired or low confident, you could
36:24catch those cues and that affects your
36:26own performance.
36:28This is why it is incredibly critical to
36:30invest in the five people who you spend
36:32the most time with.
36:33You want to make sure those five people
36:35are the cues you want to catch. Do you
36:37like the cues they're sending? Do they
36:39give you the right motivation feelings?
36:42Do they make you feel liked? Do they
36:43make you a better version of yourself?
36:45There's
36:46There's just one more chemical aspect of
36:48this which we have to do more research
36:49on.
36:51This is a very gross study, but it's one
36:54of my favorites. So gross. You ready?
36:56Okay. So they brought people in the lab.
36:59They split them up into two different
36:59groups and they made the first group
37:02wear a sweatsuit where they catch your
37:03sweat and run on the treadmill. So they
37:05sweat a lot on the treadmill. The second
37:06group they wore sweatsuits and they took
37:08them skydiving for the first time.
37:10Both groups sweat a lot. Treadmill sweat
37:13and skydiving sweat. They took these
37:15sweat samples and they had unsuspecting
37:17participants go into fMRI machines and
37:20scan their brains. Then they gave them
37:22both sweat samples to smell.
37:24Poor these poor people. They did not
37:25didn't know what they were smelling.
37:26They went uh
37:28Everyone who smelled the skydiving sweat
37:31had an activation in their own amygdala,
37:33their own fear response triggered. In
37:35other words, when they smelled fear
37:36sweat, they didn't know why, they began
37:39to feel afraid. Everyone who smelled the
37:41treadmill sweat had no change at all.
37:44This means that yes, we can talk about
37:46facial expressions and body language and
37:47vocal cues and words, but there's also
37:49something chemically happening with the
37:52people around us that we can literally
37:53smell fear and we catch it. And that is
37:56also why it's really important to follow
37:58our gut. Oh dear.
38:00Well, I was going to say well, then
38:01we're all screwed, aren't we? We can't
38:02we can't do anything cuz
38:04there's if we're giving off these
38:05chemicals which are impacting those
38:07around us, it doesn't matter if I smile
38:09and do the whole like uh
38:10Mhm. No, because
38:12I think intention is the back door into
38:14confidence.
38:15It's very hard to fake confidence. I
38:16don't believe in fake it till you make
38:17it. I don't really. But if I say I have
38:19a a
38:20tool for you that's going to make your
38:22conversations better, you become less
38:24nervous, you become more excited, you
38:26ask a better question, they give you a
38:28really good answer, you feel super
38:30charismatic, they feel really liked, you
38:31feel likable, we have a good little
38:33cycle.
38:35So, I think that intention, going in
38:37with really purposeful cues, helps you
38:39feel more confident and triggers these
38:41beautiful cycles.
38:42The cycle, is this the cycle you're
38:44talking about?
38:44Yes.
38:45The cue cycle.
38:45The cue cycle, yes.
38:46I'll put it on the screen and in the
38:47description for anyone that wants to see
38:49it. But, when I saw this, the reason I
38:51printed this off is because it really
38:53hit close to home. Because I'm someone
38:54that meets a lot of people and
38:56um when I meet people, there's on the
38:58very rare occasion, something about
39:00someone will just kind of throw my
39:01energy and it throws my energy to the
39:03point that I realize I'm then acting a
39:05little bit in terms of my interaction
39:07with them. And it's almost like I can't
39:08control it. Like something about the
39:10person has unnerved me or just made it
39:12and it's nothing that I could
39:13consciously tell you like say it or it
39:15was the way they shook my hand. Just
39:17something about them
39:18Yeah.
39:18throws me into this different state.
39:20Yeah.
39:20Um and when I saw this, I I almost
39:23figured out why. Because the first step
39:25in this cue cycle, you you explain that.
39:26I mean, it's your cue cycle.
39:27Yes, okay. So,
39:29we often mistakenly think that we send a
39:34signal to someone else, they send a
39:35signal back to us and that's it. We
39:37don't realize is there's a cycle
39:38happening within us, which is that if
39:40you send me a negative cue, I
39:42internalize it and that changes the cues
39:44I'm sending back to you. Here's a very
39:46simple experiment that showed this.
39:48They put a participant in a room and
39:50they had an
39:52actor in the room flash them a a social
39:55rejection cue. That could be a
39:58an eye roll, a scoff,
40:00a distancing and blocking behavior. So,
40:02the participant's in the room and this
40:04person across from them, they don't know
40:06it's an actor, sends them a social
40:07rejection cue. What they found was the
40:09moment that participant saw the social
40:12rejection cue, their own pupils dilated
40:15and their field of vision increased.
40:18This means that somebody saw a-oh, that
40:21person doesn't like me, and their body
40:23reacted to fight or flight. Do Is anyone
40:26else feel this way about me?
40:28Are there any escape routes for me? And
40:30that then changed what cues they sent
40:31back to that person. They were more
40:33anxious, they were more nervous. If you
40:35walk into a room with someone and you're
40:36feeling bad, you probably caught a cue.
40:39Here's the good news.
40:41You can stop the cue cycle from being
40:43negative. There's also positive cues,
40:44right? We can catch positive cues that
40:45can be good for us. But we can stop the
40:47negative cycle if we label the cue we
40:49see. Dr. Matthew Lieberman at UCLA
40:52studied this very clearly. He put people
40:53in fMRI machines and he flashed them a
40:55fear micro expression, the one that you
40:57showed us earlier,
40:58with your eyes really wide. When people
41:00saw the fear micro expression, they
41:01caught the fear. They began to feel
41:03afraid and their amygdala lit up. But
41:05when he taught them say fear
41:08or think fear, he taught them the micro
41:10expression, it stopped activating their
41:12amygdala.
41:13Meaning, if you know how to read the 97
41:15cues, and you see contempt or social
41:18rejection or a mouth shrug or a lip
41:20purse, all not great cues, you can in
41:22your head say lip purse, I'm good, or
41:25clocked, noted. That intel is actually
41:28empowering.
41:29So, that back door into confidence is
41:31also you can label it, name it, tame it,
41:33and you're in control of it. That is a
41:35much better way to interact and also can
41:37help you like people, for all my people
41:38who don't like people.
41:40Okay, so in those moments I should in my
41:41head just say what what what I'm
41:44Clocked. Label it. Yeah, like that's
41:45what I say to myself or like red flag or
41:48noted.
41:49You're you're particularly famous for a
41:52TED Talk that you did,
41:53Yeah.
41:53which did very very well. Um,
41:55it was called You Are Contagious,
41:57and it really opened my eyes to the
41:59importance of
42:01hand gestures.
42:02Yes.
42:02Which I didn't really think were that
42:03important before, but it's funny cuz
42:05going through this election cycle, and
42:07obviously Trump has now been elected as
42:08the next president of the United States,
42:10he is someone in particular that uses a
42:12lot of hand gestures. And in your TED
42:14Talk you make the case that hand
42:15gestures matter.
42:17Oh, so much. I think the hands are the
42:19windows into the soul.
42:21I think what we underestimate is the
42:24power of our gestures. Love it. Just
42:26love it. Just those jazz hands. Just
42:27those jazz hands. So, here's I want to
42:29do a little experiment with you. So, I'm
42:30going to put my hands in my lap. I've
42:31been very careful to leave my hands on
42:33the table for the entire interview.
42:35That's on purpose. Now, something funny
42:37happens in your brain when you can't see
42:39my hands. And the longer my hands are
42:40underneath the table, the more your
42:42amygdala will begin to fire. And the
42:43more distracted you become with where
42:45are her hands? Why are her hands under
42:47the table?
42:48And then when I bring my hands back out
42:49again, your brain goes
42:52And that is because hands show
42:54intention. And this makes sense from an
42:55evolutionary perspective. So, if we go
42:57back to caveman days, if we were
42:58approached by a stranger caveman and
43:00they went friend friend friend, friend
43:02friend friend, we saw they weren't
43:03carrying a rock or a spear and they were
43:05probably a friend. In fact, when we go,
43:06so nice to meet you, we shake someone's
43:08hand, we know that they're literally not
43:10going to harm us. So, our brain still
43:12keeps this mechanism that if we're on
43:14video and we can't see someone's hands
43:15or they walk into an office with their
43:17hands in their pockets or behind their
43:18back, we feel a little bit uneasy. So,
43:21there's two things for this. First is
43:23the moment someone first sees you, you
43:25want to be friend friend friend. Good to
43:26see you. Oh, so nice to meet you.
43:28Well, put your hand up for people that
43:29can't see.
43:30The moment I walk into a room, hey, nice
43:31to see you. Even before a handshake,
43:33even an old friend, I'll be like, oh my
43:34gosh, so good to see you. On Zoom,
43:37morning.
43:38Hey team.
43:39For people that can't see, she's
43:39basically putting her hand in the air.
43:41Which like a little wave.
43:42A little wave.
43:43We love a palm. As humans, we love
43:45seeing someone's palm. There's something
43:47about it that makes us feel like,
43:48they're a literally open palm. So,
43:49that's the first. In the first few
43:51seconds of someone seeing you, in
43:52person, on video, try to flash your
43:55palm.
43:56Very, very simply.
43:57Second,
43:58we understand competence in two ways.
44:01Very highly competent people know their
44:04content so well, they can speak to you
44:06on two tracks. They can speak to you
44:08verbally, but they also can speak to you
44:10with their hands. This is why we loved
44:12picture books as kids. And so when
44:14someone is speaking, we're listening to
44:15their words, but second, we're looking,
44:17are their hands outlining their words?
44:20So for example, all the best TED Talks
44:22start the same way, and this is what got
44:24me my TED Talk is
44:26we studied all the TED Talks from 2010
44:28looking for patterns. And my team and I
44:31coded every TED Talk we can find looking
44:34for differences between the most viral
44:35TED Talks and the least viral viral TED
44:37Talks. We found the most viral TED
44:40speakers used an average an average of
44:43465 hand gestures in 18 minutes.
44:47Whereas the least popular TED Talkers
44:49use an average of 271 gestures. So,
44:52not quite half.
44:54Meaning,
44:55if someone walks on stage, here's a
44:57really good TED Talk. They all start
44:58this way. You ready?
45:00Today,
45:01I want to talk to you about a big idea.
45:04We're going to share three different
45:05things that are going to change your
45:07life.
45:08So for people listening, I was outlining
45:10with my hands along with my words. If I
45:13were to get on stage and say, "Today I
45:14have a really big idea."
45:16It's huge, and hold up my hands in a
45:18really small way, your brain is 12.5
45:21times more likely to believe my gesture
45:22over my words.
45:24And so what we can do as speakers, as
45:26very highly charismatic speakers, is
45:28think about how can I outline
45:30very basically, not modern dance,
45:33what I'm saying, or how can I emphasize
45:35things with my gestures? If something is
45:36big, show me. Is a beach ball big?
45:38Is it
45:40What is this big? Donkey big? Is that a
45:42donkey? I don't even know.
45:43Um yeah, most of them
45:44But big a goat? A goat? Is that a goat
45:46big? If you have something that's really
45:48small and no big deal, doing this
45:50actually helps you think that it's not a
45:51big deal. I'm making a little kind of
45:52dismissive gesture with my hand.
45:54This also works with emphasizing points
45:57you want people to remember. If you have
45:58three ideas, tell someone you have three
46:00ideas.
46:01It is very hard to lie with our
46:02gestures. For example, you want to do a
46:03little experiment with me?
46:04Sure.
46:05Okay, I want you to say five but hold up
46:07the number three.
46:09Five.
46:10Hard, right?
46:11Yeah.
46:12So, it's really hard for
46:13I had to think about them separately.
46:14Yeah, it's really hard. Our brain is not
46:16meant to lie with gesture.
46:18Which is why humans pay so close
46:20attention to gestures. Because we're
46:22looking to see are they congruent? It is
46:24so hard to be incongruent with their
46:25gestures. Liars typically use less
46:27gestures.
46:28Oh.
46:29So, we're also drawn to people who are
46:30using gestures, who are congruent with
46:33their gestures cuz it makes us feel
46:34like, "Ooh, they know their stuff and
46:35they're being honest."
46:36So, it made me reflect. It
46:38How do we establish causation here in
46:39terms of these hand gestures? Could it
46:41be the case that the more confident TED
46:43speakers
46:44are
46:45doing more gestures because they're less
46:47nervous?
46:48Mhm.
46:49So, is it about nerves?
46:51Um and the less um confident
46:54more nervous TED speakers doing less
46:56gestures just because they're
46:56self-soothing a lot and they're they're
46:58kind of closing off their body. It is
47:00confidence the thing here. Is it nerves?
47:03I don't think so. I think it's about
47:05engagement. So, I think most TED
47:07speakers, I watch these TED Talks.
47:09They're all good.
47:10All of them are good and some of them
47:11are experts in their fields.
47:13The difference is do I want to watch
47:15they're good?
47:16It is hard for me as a viewer to pay
47:19attention for 18 minutes with someone
47:21who didn't use enough gestures. It was
47:23like physically hard for my brain to pay
47:24attention. I think those speakers,
47:26whether good or not, had over rehearsed
47:28and rehearsed out their hand gestures or
47:30were holding a podium or were holding a
47:32clicker too hard. So, I actually think
47:34that
47:36it's less to do with the speaker's
47:37nerves or confidence and it's more to do
47:39with are they going to let themselves
47:41use their hands to explain their points
47:42and that becomes more engaging.
47:44One of the things I've noticed on this
47:45podcast is people who are using their
47:47hands are more expressive and if they're
47:49more expressive, there's likely to be
47:50more sort of intonations in their voice
47:52and if there's more intonations, it's
47:53more engaging and if it's more engaging,
47:55then it's more attentive for the
47:56algorithm and if it's more attentive for
47:57the algorithm, it's suggested more. If
47:58it's suggested more, there's more views.
48:00Yes, yes, yes.
48:01So, I would like to tell my guests all
48:02the past and particularly
48:04future guests that if you're if you have
48:07more expression in what you're saying
48:09and more intonations in your voice, then
48:12our show will grow.
48:13Okay. Let's talk about two things here.
48:15One is we did a test on my YouTube
48:17channel and found that if we used a
48:18thumbnail of me
48:20doing any hand gesture, it didn't even
48:22matter what it was. It could be this, it
48:23could be this, it could be this.
48:24Any hand gesture got that more clicks.
48:26Mhm.
48:27People even in a thumbnail like to see
48:29the hand gesture even more than my crazy
48:31facial expressions. We tried both.
48:32So, yes, we are because if you see a
48:35thumbnail of me, you know, holding up
48:37two, you're like, "Well, what two things
48:38is she talking about? What is it?" So,
48:41it's we we like it, it shows competence.
48:43And the second thing is that vocal
48:45variety is an incredibly important
48:48aspect of charisma. We're talking about
48:50gestures, but there is a feedback loop
48:52here. That the more like if you if I
48:54were to try to if I were going to sit on
48:55my hands for this interview, you would
48:57notice my facial expression would get
48:58less charismatic, my vocal tone would be
49:00less charismatic. It's really hard to be
49:02charismatic without movement. Vocal
49:04variety is a critical aspect of both
49:06warmth and competence.
49:08That is because we hear someone who's
49:10able to, for example, give us the TED
49:12Talk voice. So, I'm going to give you
49:13the TED Talk voice. You ready?
49:15This point is going to change the way
49:18that we think about the world.
49:20And if we don't analyze this point, we
49:23will be in huge trouble.
49:25Like that is a voice that is telling
49:27you, "Ooh, this is important." You also
49:29hear that really good speakers will use
49:31like a numbers voice. So, a numbers
49:32voice sounds like this.
49:34Did you know that 43% of humans all
49:37believe in the same thing? 43%.
49:40Like there's And then if you're telling
49:42a story, it changes again. So, a story
49:44tone would go like this.
49:45You're never going to believe what
49:46happened to me.
49:47So, last week, I'm walking down the
49:48street, and I saw this guy.
49:50Mhm. a totally different vocal variety.
49:52That is a gift to your listener. That
49:56makes you more engaging because they're
49:57able to clock, up, we're doing a number
49:59now.
50:00Mhm.
50:00Oh, we have a story now. Oh, this is an
50:02important point. I better write it down.
50:04Really good TED speakers are outlining
50:06their talk for you in in many different
50:07ways. And that's the best speakers I see
50:09on stage.
50:10It's so interesting because in this
50:12podcast, we had quite a long
50:13conversation a couple of months ago
50:15about arms on the chair, the chair that
50:17you're in now. And it was just this
50:19observation we had when we first flew
50:20out here to New York. The chairs that we
50:21ordered were pretty similar to this, but
50:23they just happened to have arms on them.
50:25And what I noticed was that guests would
50:27lean.
50:28Oh.
50:29And and it would take out their arms.
50:31So, it took out their arms and they
50:32became less expressive and the
50:34conversations were less interesting.
50:35Yes.
50:36So, we removed the arms again.
50:37Okay, so let's talk about this just very
50:39briefly.
50:39Yeah.
50:40I actually do recommend chairs with
50:42arms, not in this setup, because look at
50:45the difference. So, actually right
50:46before this interview, you asked me to
50:48scoot my chair in, right? Well, your
50:50amazing team asked me to scoot my chair
50:51in. Thank you for that, because it makes
50:52it so that I want to put my hands up. If
50:55I were to be sitting farther back, I'm
50:56just going to lean back for a second, I
50:57would be tempted to put my hands in my
50:59lap.
50:59Yes.
51:00So, the critical piece of this is you're
51:01having me scoot up to the table. It
51:03would be really hard if I had arms, cuz
51:06then I would want to go like this. It
51:07would make me look like a duck.
51:08Yes.
51:09Right. So, you want to use a chair with
51:11arms to be broader. It actually does
51:13broaden your arms out, unless you're
51:14really close to the table and you can
51:15put your hands on the table. But I
51:17It's amazing how the physical
51:18environment can change how we are
51:21perceived and how we move.
51:22But even that we we're very intentional
51:24about the
51:25sort of mirroring of our body language
51:27and just making sure that we're head-on,
51:28because this conversation is entirely
51:29different if we're side-on.
51:31Very much.
51:31It's not going to be the same.
51:32Very much.
51:33And there's not going to be the same
51:34level of intimacy. We also thought a lot
51:35about the how big the table was. This is
51:37quite a big table.
51:39What's the distance?
51:40Uh I'm going to say it's about just shy
51:42of 2 m.
51:42Wait, can you hold your arm out? Okay.
51:44So, this is perfect distance.
51:46The perfect distance between two people
51:47having good conversation is that we
51:49could shake hands if we wanted to.
51:51Okay.
51:51And that is because there are four
51:52different proxemic zones. So, the fancy
51:54word for space is proxemics. I don't
51:57know if you have that beautiful graphic.
51:59I'll print it out. This
52:00Oh, yes, that's it. Yes.
52:01So, there are four different space
52:02zones, and these are really good to know
52:03if you're trying to set yourself up for
52:05success.
52:06The public zone is about 5 to 8 ft away.
52:09I don't know. Uh not feet, but 5 to 8 ft
52:11away. Then you have the social zone,
52:13which is where we like to socialize with
52:14people. That is, depending on who you
52:16ask, 3 to 5 ft away. Then there's the
52:18personal zone. That's our favorite zone.
52:19That is about uh arms distance apart,
52:22right? So, we could shake hands if we
52:23wanted to. That's where our best
52:24conversations happen. And then there's
52:26the intimate zone. A big mistake people
52:28make is they place their video camera
52:30too close to their face, which means
52:33they're accidentally signaling intimacy
52:35cues with their colleagues and their
52:36co-workers. Have you ever been on a Zoom
52:38with someone where their face is the
52:39entire camera?
52:41I was on on one earlier on.
52:42And you're like, "Please, back up." And
52:43that is because your brain is going too
52:45close, even though they're across the
52:46camera. So, what I would really
52:47recommend, measure the distance between
52:49your nose and your camera. It should be
52:51one arm length. So, it should be the tip
52:53of your nose to the tip of your fingers,
52:55or a foot and a half to 3 ft away. That
52:58is the ideal zone for having good
53:00conversation over Zoom.
53:01That's really interesting as well,
53:02because I was thinking about the
53:03conversation I had actually on the way
53:04here in the car with a colleague of
53:05mine.
53:06Mhm.
53:06And they'd called me on FaceTime.
53:08Mhm.
53:09Now, the thing with FaceTime is it's
53:10going to be close.
53:11It's going to be close.
53:12And it did feel a little bit intimate.
53:13It does.
53:14Um because they called me on FaceTime.
53:15Yes.
53:16And obviously, if I was on my laptop,
53:17they'd call me on Zoom or something
53:19else, and you there'd be a meter.
53:20Yeah.
53:21So, I think that that's
53:22why we can sometimes, at least
53:24introverts, feel like, "Don't FaceTime
53:26me. It's way too personal."
53:27Mhm.
53:27It's cuz there's a setup there that it's
53:29actually accidentally tricking you into
53:31being in the intimate zone with someone.
53:33This is also why loud bars and
53:35nightclubs work so well for facilitating
53:36romantic relationships. What happens in
53:39a loud bar or a loud nightclub is you
53:41can't hear someone, so you go, "What?"
53:43And then you get a little bit closer,
53:44and all of a sudden you're accidentally
53:46standing in someone's intimate zone.
53:47Which then that Q cycle begins to kick
53:50in where you're like, "Well, if I'm
53:51standing within a foot and a half from
53:52this person, maybe I should feel
53:53intimate with them." Which then makes
53:55you lean in more, makes you want to
53:56touch more. That is why people go to
53:59bars and nightclubs to facilitate these
54:00romantic relationships. It's
54:01accidentally going into the intimate
54:03zone.
54:04When I was younger, I've said this a few
54:06times on the podcast before, but it's
54:07feels very relevant. My brother, my
54:09older brother Jason, he ordered this
54:10book called The Game by Neil Strauss.
54:13And it he ordered it to university, but
54:15he accidentally put the wrong address,
54:16and so it came to home. This sounds like
54:18an elaborate story for me like buying a
54:19pickup artist book. But it came to home,
54:21and I read the book, and it was my first
54:22time understanding that body language
54:24was a important, but even something you
54:26could learn. And and you know, when I
54:28say body language, I mean everything.
54:30Um
54:32And it's it's interesting cuz now, after
54:34reading your work, I actually think
54:35maybe what I should have been aiming at
54:37was how to be more charismatic.
54:39And you talk about these five
54:41science-based habits for being more
54:44charismatic.
54:45Yeah.
54:46I guess the first question is what is
54:47charisma?
54:48Yes.
54:49And then what are these five
54:50science-based habits that can make me
54:52more charismatic as a person? Like how
54:54do I know if I'm charismatic?
54:56You are charismatic, but you lean higher
54:57on competence. So So, let's break it
55:00down, okay? So, this is not my work.
55:02This is the work work of Dr. Susan
55:03Fiske. This is a instrumental study.
55:05It's been repeated many times back in
55:072002 that found that to be charismatic,
55:10you have to be both highly warm and
55:12highly competent. Or more importantly,
55:14you have to signal high warmth and high
55:16competence. And that this is makes up
55:1782% of impressions of people. Warmth,
55:20trust, likeability, friendliness.
55:22Competence, power, reliability,
55:24capability. So, very highly charismatic
55:27people, you meet them, you see them, and
55:29they are signaling, "You can trust me.
55:31You like me. And boy, am I reliable and
55:33competent at the very same time."
55:36So, when I say you are charismatic, but
55:38you lean very high in competence, which
55:40means that people can see you
55:43as cold or stoic if you're not showing
55:45enough warmth cues.
55:46Mhm.
55:46Have you been told that?
55:48Intimidating?
55:48Indirectly.
55:49Indirectly, yeah. Right.
55:51People are just scared to say it when
55:52I'm joking. But no, I do get that. I do
55:53I do I think I have like some degree of
55:55self-awareness as to how I come across,
55:57and I think how you described it is
55:59exactly how I come across.
56:00And that's not a bad thing, right? Like
56:02you get to pick your own recipe. Like I
56:04lean a little higher on the warm side.
56:05I'm also female, and there are
56:06differences between men and women. So,
56:08typically, not always, men default to
56:11higher in competence. Women are
56:13defaulted to higher in warmth.
56:14Typically, not always. This isn't a bad
56:16thing, but you should know that if you
56:19are trying to come across as warmer on
56:21your team, you're trying to inspire more
56:22collaboration, you're trying to make
56:23more friends, you want to dial up your
56:25warmth cues.
56:26If you're someone who's interrupted a
56:28lot, not taken seriously,
56:30people forget meeting you, you need to
56:32dial up competence.
56:34This is like a thermostat. You can dial
56:36up warmth cues and dial up competence
56:38cues, and this changes the way people
56:39treat you. So, I have five power cues
56:42for competence, and I have five warmth
56:44cues for warmth.
56:45We're going to go through all of those.
56:46I saw this wonderful graph, which kind
56:48of explains it, which I'll put on the
56:49screen for anyone that's watching. Um
56:51and this was
56:52really, really interesting. There's a
56:54danger zone. The danger zone, I'm
56:56guessing, is when you're low warmth and
56:57low competence.
56:58That's it. That Those are those folks
57:00that are stoic.
57:01If you don't send enough warmth cues, if
57:04you don't send enough competence cues,
57:06people cannot trust you. They have
57:08trouble working with you. They have
57:09trouble talking to you. This is the
57:11curse of very smart people.
57:13Very smart people think, "My ideas will
57:15stand alone.
57:17My book smarts are great. I don't need
57:19to communicate these cues. My ideas are
57:21enough." That's what happened to Jamie
57:22Siminoff in the tank.
57:24He did not show enough warmth or
57:25competence cues. He relied solely on his
57:27ideas and his numbers, and he could not
57:29get a deal.
57:31So, people who want to be taken
57:32seriously, you have to show warmth and
57:33competence. The other problem with
57:35highly competent folks, and you lean
57:36higher in competence, so this is for
57:37you, too, which is
57:39is directly from the research.
57:41Too much competence without enough
57:43warmth leaves people feeling suspicious.
57:46Mhm.
57:47So, no matter how competent you are, no
57:48matter how good your ideas are, if you
57:50are not showcasing that with warmth,
57:52people are skeptical of you. And this is
57:55what happens with a lot of my students
57:57is they're like, "People don't trust me.
57:59They don't believe my ideas. They're
58:01skeptical. I get pushback." Or they're I
58:03do sales trainings.
58:04They can't close.
58:06They'll pushback on their numbers. And
58:08that is because some part of them is
58:09saying, "I hear your competence, but
58:11you're not giving me enough warmth."
58:12And you be too warm?
58:14You can be absolutely too warm. You can
58:15be too warm and too competent. Too warm,
58:17you know what that looks like?
58:20That's too warm.
58:22Okay.
58:23Okay? Too warm is So, we'll talk about
58:25the five warmth cues. Too much of any
58:27cue is dangerous.
58:29Right? So, too much nodding, too much
58:31laughing, too much
58:32vocalizations.
58:34Those are all too warm, and they make us
58:36think this person is a bimbo or a ditz
58:39or not competent. That's what happens.
58:41We have too much warmth, it takes away
58:42from our competence.
58:44Where should we start?
58:46Let's start with the power keys.
58:47Okay, the power keys. So, this is
58:48competence.
58:48Yes, power keys. Let me get some more
58:50power keys. Mhm.
58:52Okay, so we talked about the importance
58:53of hand gestures. There is a very good
58:56competent hand gesture, which everyone
58:58should know if you want to be perceived
58:59as higher in competence, it's called the
59:00steeple.
59:01Oh, this. This is the
59:02It's on the cover of my book if you want
59:04to see it. Yes, this looks when your
59:05hands look like a little steeple.
59:06They're kind of relaxed open.
59:08triangle for anyone that comes kind of
59:09like a triangle.
59:09Yeah, a triangle. It's a power pose for
59:11the hands. Why?
59:12If you are doing this pose, you're
59:13showing I'm not hiding anything from
59:14you. You can still see my palms, but I
59:17am very
59:19relaxed and poised enough so that I'm
59:21keeping my hands together. Now, be
59:22careful, don't drum. This is evil
59:24fingers.
59:25Yeah.
59:25This is Mr. Burns for those of you who
59:27know, right? So, it's a nice still
59:29steeple. Uh they have found they rated
59:31hand gestures in a study and they found
59:33that this was the single most the
59:35highest-rated hand gesture that leaders
59:37made is when they made this gesture.
59:38Now, personally, I don't use this a lot
59:41in my interpersonal interactions because
59:43it doesn't feel supernatural to me. It's
59:45funny because we took one picture for my
59:47cover type cover photos
59:49and my all every single picture of me
59:52for my cover photos I was smiling. And
59:53my wonderful photographer, Maggie
59:55Kirkland, said, "Vanessa, can we just do
59:56one of you serious?" I was like, "But
59:58I'm not serious." She's like, "Just just
1:00:00one. Just do your most powerful power
1:00:02cue." And this is the only picture
1:00:05and that was the one that we chose for
1:00:07it. So, it's just funny because it's a
1:00:09very high competence cue. So, you can
1:00:11try the steeple. Just be careful not to
1:00:12do
1:00:13evil finger evil fingers with it. That's
1:00:15a high competence cue.
1:00:16That picture of you in the front, what
1:00:17is that signaling?
1:00:18So, it's a it's a perfect balance,
1:00:20right? So, one I have the steeple cue,
1:00:21competence gesture. Two, I'm angled
1:00:23toward you. My body is angled toward
1:00:24you, which is a warm cue that's
1:00:26fronting. My toes are angled toward you,
1:00:27which is warm. I also have a smoldering
1:00:30eye contact look, which is high
1:00:31competence, which we can talk about. And
1:00:32I have an up face, right? I'm not in my
1:00:34resting bothered face. So, that's a
1:00:35slight warm cue.
1:00:36Yeah. That is actually how it makes me
1:00:38feel. There's an there's an element of
1:00:39power, but it's not an intimidating
1:00:42level of power.
1:00:42Because I balanced it with that warmth.
1:00:44Yeah. It's like a welcoming
1:00:46Oh, yeah. Woo! We did it. Now, I got to
1:00:48do it for the next one. Okay, so Okay,
1:00:50see steeple. Yeah.
1:00:51Second. This is a weird one. The most
1:00:54important measurement on your entire
1:00:56body
1:00:57is the distance between your earlobe and
1:00:59your shoulder.
1:01:00This distance right here.
1:01:02Watch. If I were to do this in the
1:01:05interview the entire time, if I were to
1:01:06have a very small distance between my
1:01:08earlobe and my shoulder, I would look
1:01:10anxious. I would also have a really hard
1:01:11time giving you vocal power. You would
1:01:13have a hard Do you trust me?
1:01:15No, you look nervous.
1:01:16Right. I look nervous. There's a direct
1:01:18correlation between confidence and
1:01:19anxiety and the distance between your
1:01:21shoulder and our earlobe. And very
1:01:23quickly we're trying to just assess
1:01:24someone in the first few seconds of
1:01:25seeing them, we're trying to assess how
1:01:27confident are you? Can I catch it?
1:01:30We don't like people who are anxious. We
1:01:32don't want to talk to someone like this
1:01:33because we don't want to catch that
1:01:34anxiety, but we do want to talk to
1:01:36someone who has the max distance between
1:01:37their earlobes and their shoulder. So,
1:01:39when you're in your first impression,
1:01:40also in your profile pictures,
1:01:43I want a relaxed distance, shoulders
1:01:45down, earlobes out, which is another
1:01:47reason why I like that this is how your
1:01:48table is set up cuz it pushes my
1:01:50shoulders down so I have a max distance.
1:01:52That makes me look more confident, but
1:01:54it also makes me feel more confident.
1:01:57There's a look here. So, when you do the
1:01:58steeple and then you roll your shoulders
1:02:00down and back, you will begin to feel
1:02:01more confident.
1:02:04Don't you feel that?
1:02:06What if you like raise your head though?
1:02:07Like cuz cuz if I'm trying to get my
1:02:08ears away from my shoulders, I might go
1:02:10like this.
1:02:10Actually, they're the same distance. So,
1:02:12you want to actually keep your Yeah, you
1:02:13want to keep your chin level. And I you
1:02:15if you can help it, you don't want to
1:02:16actually look down to someone down your
1:02:17nose at someone. It's quite a um
1:02:20Scornful, judgemental.
1:02:21Exactly. So, you just noticed it even
1:02:23when I did it. So, it's not this, it's
1:02:24just
1:02:25this distance. So, maximizing this
1:02:27difference.
1:02:28Third one, I love eye contact. We all
1:02:31know good eye contact is important, but
1:02:32here's what you might not know about
1:02:33good eye contacts. Eye contact is a
1:02:35power move when you look at someone at
1:02:37the end of your sentence.
1:02:39So, we're very used to if someone's
1:02:41thinking about something and they're
1:02:42processing something in their head and
1:02:43I'm telling you that there were 465
1:02:46gestures in a TED Talk. That is the most
1:02:48important way that I want to show you
1:02:49something to you.
1:02:51That we like it when someone is actually
1:02:53accessing different memories or areas of
1:02:55their brain, but then when I end my
1:02:57sentence looking directly at you, you're
1:02:58like,
1:03:00So, highly competent people make eye
1:03:03contact specifically at the end of their
1:03:05sentences to drill a point
1:03:08and ideally when the other person is
1:03:09saying something important.
1:03:11Okay, interesting. I just did it then. I
1:03:13do that when I'm when I'm doing
1:03:14interviews because I kind of like look
1:03:16off into the distance to think a little
1:03:17bit and then I come back to ask.
1:03:18The worst advice I hear people give,
1:03:21body language experts give, make more
1:03:23eye contact. Make 100% eye contact.
1:03:27Actually, in Western cultures, they've
1:03:28studied this. The ideal amount of eye
1:03:30contact is between 60 and 70% of the
1:03:32conversation. If you make over 70% eye
1:03:35contact, it's actually considered a
1:03:36territorial gesture. So, if I were to
1:03:38making 100% eye contact with you, it it
1:03:40feel very invasive, very awkward. We
1:03:42like it when someone is processing or
1:03:44gathering information from around. Like
1:03:46if I'm processing something or I'm
1:03:47thinking about something or I'm
1:03:48accessing, all that matters is at the
1:03:50end of my point, I'm looking right at
1:03:52you.
1:03:53And that feels so much more powerful.
1:03:55Okay, so that's number three.
1:03:56Yeah, that's number three. Yeah.
1:03:57Yeah.
1:03:58Fourth one, one of my favorites. It's
1:04:00called a lower lid flex.
1:04:03Lower lid flex is one of the least
1:04:05utilized, but one of my favorite cues.
1:04:07So, biologically speaking,
1:04:09when we are trying to see something far
1:04:12away, we harden our lower lids. Like I'm
1:04:14trying to read the titles on your
1:04:16bookshelf, I harden my lower lids. That
1:04:18is because when our eye is trying to see
1:04:20far, it squints to block out the light.
1:04:23Mhm.
1:04:23So, you'll see more details in my face
1:04:25when you harden your lower lid at me.
1:04:26So, harden your lower lid.
1:04:28When you look at People's Sexiest Man
1:04:29Alive, almost every man in that magazine
1:04:32is
1:04:34it's Zoolander, right? Blue Steel? Blue
1:04:36Steel is actually just a lower lid flex.
1:04:38That is because when someone is trying
1:04:41to really focus on something and really
1:04:43understand something, their lower lid is
1:04:44flexed as as you're doing right now. And
1:04:46boy oh boy, do we like it when someone
1:04:48is lower lid flexing at us cuz it means
1:04:49you are really trying to understand and
1:04:52see me.
1:04:53So, a lower lid flex is a great power
1:04:55cue to use in moderation, right? Nothing
1:04:58too much. That when someone is saying
1:05:00something on a date or in a meeting or a
1:05:01colleague is saying something really
1:05:03important and you want to show them, I
1:05:05am really listening,
1:05:07that lower lid flex shows them, I am
1:05:09super focused and and on you. That is
1:05:11why women find men who do the lower lid
1:05:13flex very sexy, because they feel like,
1:05:16"Ooh, he's really focusing on me." Now,
1:05:19there's a little side note to the lower
1:05:21lid flex.
1:05:23Lower lid flex is not it's inherently in
1:05:25itself a positive cue. It's a cue of
1:05:26focus, right?
1:05:28If you are in a presentation or a
1:05:30meeting and you say something and
1:05:32someone suddenly lid flexes at you,
1:05:36you might have just said something
1:05:37they're like,
1:05:38"Really?"
1:05:39Yeah.
1:05:40So, for me, this is a game-changing
1:05:42moment as I was giving a presentation to
1:05:43a bunch of executives and I said
1:05:45something about oxytocin, which is the
1:05:47the hormone of um
1:05:49love and cuddle and connection.
1:05:51And he goes, I saw him lower lid flex at
1:05:54me.
1:05:54But he's also turned his head there.
1:05:56I don't know if he I don't remember if
1:05:57he turned his head, but all I notice is
1:05:58that distinctly he went from mhm mhm to
1:06:01Uh yes.
1:06:03And I went, "Does that make sense?"
1:06:05Any questions?
1:06:06So, if you see a lower lid flex, your
1:06:07best choice is to try to gather more
1:06:10information. That makes sense? All good?
1:06:12Any questions for me? How we feel about
1:06:13this? So, I said, "Any questions for
1:06:15me?" And he goes, and I looked right at
1:06:17him. I said, "Any questions for me?"
1:06:18He said, "You know,
1:06:20I think they gave my wife oxytocin in
1:06:22labor. Is that the same thing?"
1:06:24And it's true that they give a form of
1:06:26oxytocin to induce women in labor.
1:06:28That's how strong oxytocin is that in
1:06:30high doses it will put women into labor.
1:06:32It's a form it's called Pitocin. I said,
1:06:34"You're absolutely right. In medical
1:06:36settings, they can give synthetic forms
1:06:38of oxytocin to push women into labor."
1:06:40That was a moment for me because one is
1:06:42I realized I was able to stop the
1:06:44skepticism and the confusion right there
1:06:46before we moved on to anyone else
1:06:47anything else. And now when I teach
1:06:49oxytocin, I say, "In social settings,
1:06:53oxytocin means this, because in medical
1:06:56settings it means something different."
1:06:57So, noticing that lower lid flex is
1:06:59incredibly important for you to
1:07:01understand where you might have a hint
1:07:03of skepticism or a hint of confusion. If
1:07:06you're in a sales meeting or
1:07:07presentation, you want to make sure you
1:07:09have addressed whatever that person is
1:07:11flexing about before you move on.
1:07:14Super interesting in that example you
1:07:16give there as well.
1:07:17Had you not investigated that lower lid
1:07:19flex, you might have also thought
1:07:22something you said was wrong and lost
1:07:23your confidence and that can spiral
1:07:25into, you know, closing off and becoming
1:07:27a worse presenter.
1:07:29This is why I thought people hated me
1:07:31and I hated people. So, for my folks
1:07:33that are listening who are like, I hate
1:07:34people, and I get it.
1:07:36I was misreading cues as skeptical or
1:07:39negative of me when it could have been
1:07:41neutral or curiosity or trying to
1:07:43understand something better.
1:07:45If you can give these a try, it will
1:07:47help you more deeply understand people,
1:07:49which might help you like them more.
1:07:53Ready for the fifth one?
1:07:54I'm ready for the fifth.
1:07:55Okay, the fifth one. This is a vocal
1:07:57cue. So, we talked a lot about body
1:07:58language cues, but vocal cues are
1:08:00incredibly important.
1:08:02Vocal cues
1:08:04tell someone how you are feeling about
1:08:07them and how you feel about yourself.
1:08:09One of the biggest ones is an accidental
1:08:11question inflection.
1:08:13A question inflection is when we go up
1:08:14at the end of our sentence, so it sounds
1:08:16like we're asking a question even if
1:08:18we're actually using a statement.
1:08:21The brain research has actually looked
1:08:23at what the brain does when it hears an
1:08:25accidental question inflection.
1:08:27If we are listening to someone and we
1:08:29hear them accidentally use the question
1:08:30inflection, our brain goes from
1:08:32listening to scrutinizing.
1:08:34Why? Our brain wonders, why did you ask
1:08:37me that?
1:08:38Liars typically accidentally use the
1:08:40question inflection.
1:08:42If I say to my daughter, "Did you take
1:08:44the cookie from the cookie jar?" and she
1:08:46goes, "No."
1:08:48I am.
1:08:49Liars are asking, "Do you believe this?"
1:08:52So, we have noticed we did a massive
1:08:54experiment in our lab where we had
1:08:56people play two truths and a lie with
1:08:57us. So, share two truths about
1:08:59themselves and a lie.
1:09:00And we found overwhelmingly one of the
1:09:02biggest patterns, there's a couple of
1:09:03different patterns, but one of the
1:09:04biggest ones was that liars asked their
1:09:07lie statement.
1:09:08So, like it sound like this. Here, you
1:09:09can play with me and I'll I'll add the
1:09:11question inflection to one.
1:09:13I love dogs.
1:09:14I live in Austin, Texas, and I love
1:09:16cilantro.
1:09:17Oh, yeah. You don't like cilantro.
1:09:19No.
1:09:20It's like a crime against humanity.
1:09:22Like, why do people get put cilantro on
1:09:23anything? So, we noticed you will ask
1:09:26the lie because they were asking, "Do
1:09:27you believe this?" So, our brain is very
1:09:29adept with this. If we hear the
1:09:31accidental question inflection used, we
1:09:32go, "Wait a minute. Is someone lying to
1:09:34me?"
1:09:35The biggest mistake that sales people
1:09:37make is they get to their entire pitch
1:09:39and they ask their number. So, it sound
1:09:41like this.
1:09:43Uh hi, we'd love to do business with
1:09:45you. We'd love to have your project and
1:09:47the cost of this service is $5,000?
1:09:51If you ask your number, you are begging
1:09:54people to negotiate with you.
1:09:56If you are asking for a raise or you are
1:09:58asking for a certain salary and you ask
1:10:00it, you are signaling to the other
1:10:01person, "I don't really believe this
1:10:03number and you shouldn't either."
1:10:05So, the power cue, number five power
1:10:06cue, is using the downward inflection.
1:10:09Highly confident people, they do not
1:10:11mistakenly use the question inflection.
1:10:13They actually go down at the end of
1:10:15their sentences. President Obama was
1:10:17very good at is very good at slinging
1:10:20down his words, which makes you want to
1:10:21listen. So, it sound like this.
1:10:23I'm going to say nothing so you can hear
1:10:24it.
1:10:25The problem in this country is that we
1:10:27don't take seriously enough
1:10:29the issues of our people. And if we
1:10:31don't take those issues seriously, we
1:10:33will be in grave trouble.
1:10:36So, he tends to go down at the end of
1:10:37his sentences. He also has a lot of
1:10:39space in the bottom of his mouth. That
1:10:41makes us gives us him more resonance,
1:10:42but it also makes us think, "Oh, he
1:10:44really believes his word." Cuz it's the
1:10:46opposite of the question inflection. If
1:10:48you have a boundary, if you're setting a
1:10:49limit, if you're telling something
1:10:51someone something really important about
1:10:53you, say it. Don't ask it.
1:10:56That is the biggest thing you can do to
1:10:57get people to take you seriously.
1:10:59Interesting.
1:10:59And don't ask your name.
1:11:02Most often, I hear people ask their own
1:11:04name and it destroys their vocal
1:11:06charisma. So, that would be My name is
1:11:08Vanessa Van Edwards.
1:11:11Not My name is Vanessa Van Edwards.
1:11:14Your perceptions of my confidence in
1:11:16those two introductions are radically
1:11:18different. There's a study that looked
1:11:20at this and they looked at the vocal
1:11:21statements of surgeons.
1:11:24They had surgeons come into their lab
1:11:26and record 10-second voice tone clips.
1:11:28The clips that are most important when
1:11:30they're meeting patients. Their name,
1:11:32their specialty, and where they worked.
1:11:33Sounded like this.
1:11:35Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize
1:11:37in oncology and I work at Children's
1:11:38Hospital and Hospital.
1:11:40They took these clips and they warbled
1:11:42the words so you could hear the volume,
1:11:44the pace, the cadence, but not the
1:11:45actual words being said. So, it sounded
1:11:46like this. Hello
1:11:48Hello Hello
1:11:49Hello
1:11:50Hello Hello
1:11:52I worked very hard on practicing that,
1:11:53by the way.
1:11:53That's amazing.
1:11:54Because it has to sound like me, but
1:11:56nothing.
1:11:57They took these clips and they had
1:11:58people rate these surgeons on warmth and
1:12:01competence, the two things that we know
1:12:03are most important for charisma.
1:12:05The doctors who had the lowest ratings
1:12:07of warmth and competence had the highest
1:12:10rate of malpractice lawsuits.
1:12:13In other words, we don't sue doctors
1:12:15based on their skills. We sue doctors
1:12:18based on our perception of their skills
1:12:20and that happens within the first few
1:12:21seconds of hearing them.
1:12:24So, if you give the question inflection
1:12:27on your name, on your specialty, on what
1:12:28you do, people begin to doubt you. So,
1:12:31the bad doctor sounded like this.
1:12:33Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize
1:12:35in oncology.
1:12:36And I work at Children's Hospital and
1:12:38Hospital.
1:12:40Those doctors got rated as low in both
1:12:42warmth and competence because their
1:12:44brains were going, "Why are they asking?
1:12:47Are they not sure? I'm not sure,
1:12:48either."
1:12:49Uh-huh. So, it's really signaling
1:12:50conviction in who you are,
1:12:53Yeah. what you're about, and what you
1:12:54do.
1:12:55Interesting.
1:12:56So, practice your name, your price.
1:12:58Hello, my name is Stephen.
1:13:00No, that was up.
1:13:01That was a little up.
1:13:02Hi, my name is Stephen.
1:13:02That's it.
1:13:03Okay.
1:13:03Yeah.
1:13:05Okay.
1:13:06I literally asked that like a question,
1:13:07didn't I, the first one? I was like,
1:13:08"Hello, my name is Stephen." Cuz I was
1:13:09like I was actually asking I was trying
1:13:11to ask you if it was a good
1:13:12pronunciation. That's so funny.
1:13:13That was the upward inflection. Didn't
1:13:15it feel different?
1:13:16Totally different. The second one was
1:13:17me.
1:13:17Uh-huh.
1:13:17So, the first one was like seeking
1:13:19validation.
1:13:20a lot of downward inflection, except
1:13:21when you're asking questions, which we
1:13:22like.
1:13:23Okay.
1:13:23Right? That's why you lean higher in
1:13:24competence is you use already a lot of
1:13:26downward inflection.
1:13:28It's so interesting cuz as you were
1:13:29speaking, something came to mind, which
1:13:31I was reading about in your work, um
1:13:33which is you're really good at what you
1:13:34do. You're like very good at as
1:13:37uh guest on a podcast and just as a
1:13:39professional generally. And I was also
1:13:40thinking this, I was saying to myself,
1:13:43"I'm sure she knows." And I'm sure she
1:13:44can tell from my face that I think she's
1:13:46good.
1:13:47But, it's funny cuz in your work you say
1:13:48that we're actually we over assume
1:13:50people can read us. So, like when I was
1:13:52thinking, "Oh, she's so good." And in
1:13:54your work it says like it says that I'm
1:13:56I was doing it. I was assuming you knew
1:13:58how I felt about you.
1:14:00But, in your work you also make the case
1:14:01that I've actually I should say it.
1:14:03Yes. Yes.
1:14:04Yeah.
1:14:04We There is an effect where we think
1:14:06that people know how we feel.
1:14:08Specifically, it's called signal
1:14:10amplification bias. It's a name for this
1:14:12study, which is that we think our
1:14:13signals are obvious. That if we like
1:14:15someone or if we're having a good time,
1:14:17we think, "Oh, they for sure know it."
1:14:19They don't. Oh, the three magic phrases,
1:14:21we never finish them.
1:14:23That's why you say, "I was just thinking
1:14:24of you."
1:14:25That's a way of assuring someone, "I do
1:14:27think of you."
1:14:28Only if it's true. The second one is,
1:14:30"You're always so
1:14:33So, if you're with someone and you're
1:14:34impressed by them or they're interesting
1:14:36or they're funny, saying, "Oh, you
1:14:37always make me laugh. You're always so
1:14:40interesting. You're always so great to
1:14:41interview. You're always so great at
1:14:43interviews." Giving them a label that is
1:14:45a positive label is the best gift you
1:14:47can give someone because it's fighting
1:14:49that signal amplification bias.
1:14:51And the last one is
1:14:53last time we talked you mentioned
1:14:55Yeah.
1:14:56We are so honored when we get brain
1:14:58space that you remembered and that
1:15:00you're going to bring it up and you
1:15:01specifically bring up something that
1:15:02they lit up with. Something they were
1:15:04like, "Oh, it was great. It was
1:15:06exciting. It was wonderful." Those are
1:15:07my three magic phrases and it's because
1:15:09they are fighting that signal
1:15:11amplification bias. I have no idea if
1:15:12you like this interview. I have no idea
1:15:14if you like my I have no idea. And the
1:15:16more that you can broadcast those
1:15:18symbols that those signals, the more
1:15:20people actually like you.
1:15:22Mhm. So, what do you What advice would
1:15:24you give me then as an interview
1:15:26I guess I'm an interview host of the
1:15:27show. What is cuz people come here
1:15:30sometimes they're nervous, you know, we
1:15:32have people come in there they um
1:15:35some people come in they're nervous a
1:15:36little bit and I always try I always
1:15:38want to make them feel comfortable, but
1:15:39I you know, as you said, I probably
1:15:41don't rank that high on warmth, so it
1:15:42doesn't come that natural to me. I'm not
1:15:44the kind of person that comes out and is
1:15:45like, "Hi,
1:15:46welcome." And like, "Hey."
1:15:48And that would be off brand for you.
1:15:49Yeah, and it wouldn't be authentic.
1:15:50No, no, and it would be off brand for
1:15:52you. That's too much. Okay, so five
1:15:53warmth cues.
1:15:54Okay.
1:15:54So,
1:15:55for those of you who are listening, the
1:15:56five power cues I just shared,
1:15:58those are if you think you are really
1:16:00high in warmth,
1:16:01but you worry that people don't take you
1:16:03seriously,
1:16:04you're worried that people ignore you,
1:16:06you get interrupted in meetings. I want
1:16:08you to use those five power cues if
1:16:09that's you. Now, I'm going to teach you
1:16:11five warmth cues.
1:16:12If you have ever been told you're
1:16:14intimidating,
1:16:15hard to talk to,
1:16:16cold. If you often feel like people are
1:16:18holding back or not opening up to you, I
1:16:20want you to use these five warmth cues.
1:16:22This is dialing up your thermostat.
1:16:24Okay, these are for you, too.
1:16:26First, we love a triple nod.
1:16:29Research has found that if we do a slow
1:16:31triple nod, the other person speaks 67%
1:16:34longer.
1:16:36So, as an interview, this is a great
1:16:38cue. Watch this. So, here's my my triple
1:16:40nod is mhm mhm, mhm.
1:16:43We love it. It's a nonverbal dot dot
1:16:45dot. It's like, tell me more. Tell me
1:16:48more. Now, be careful. Don't bobble
1:16:50head. So you don't want to do it too
1:16:51much. Right, that's too high and warm.
1:16:53Okay.
1:16:54And second, you don't want to do it too
1:16:55fast.
1:16:56Too fast of a triple nod is impatience.
1:16:58shut up.
1:16:59Yeah.
1:17:00So if you want someone to wrap up if you
1:17:01want someone to wrap a question, yeah,
1:17:03that that
1:17:04Yeah.
1:17:04That's it.
1:17:05That's exactly it.
1:17:06Right, so here's for everyone watching.
1:17:07Here's good. Mhm, mhm, mhm. Here's
1:17:10please hurry up. Mhm, mhm, mhm.
1:17:13Yeah, that's shut the up. I've seen
1:17:14that before.
1:17:15and it works.
1:17:16It's a really nice way of saying, please
1:17:18wrap. Please end. So I love a warm
1:17:21triple nod, but you have to be careful
1:17:22with it. Okay, so that's cue number one.
1:17:25Second,
1:17:26a head tilt.
1:17:27So universally, if we're trying to hear
1:17:29something, we tilt our head up and we
1:17:30expose our ear, right? We're we're as if
1:17:32we're saying, what was that? Like dogs
1:17:34do this when they're like, mhm, you
1:17:36know, and they expose their ear.
1:17:37Humans also do this across cultures
1:17:39because it's a it's kind of a way that
1:17:41we're like, oh, I I'm listening to this.
1:17:43Research has found that if you deliver
1:17:44bad news with a head tilt, you are more
1:17:47likable.
1:17:48So people take the news better if you
1:17:50deliver bad news with a slight head tilt
1:17:52because it literally makes you look more
1:17:53warm. It literally makes you look like
1:17:54you're listening. Now, I only want you
1:17:55to do this when you're actually
1:17:56listening, but a head tilt is also a way
1:17:58that you can slightly add warmth to your
1:18:00conversation or to your interview or to
1:18:02your date. Not to Okay, so we're going
1:18:04to go back to the So we don't want to go
1:18:05too far. That looks weird.
1:18:07A little weird. Right, not too much. And
1:18:10um I also like to teach a head tilt to
1:18:12my highly warm folks who are bobble
1:18:13headers.
1:18:15So if anyone if you're like, oh, I do
1:18:16this a lot.
1:18:17Yeah.
1:18:18I I'm a bobble header. I'm a recovering
1:18:19bobble header.
1:18:21Cuz I like to people like me, right? So
1:18:22I'll I'll nod too much.
1:18:24If you are a bobble header, you can
1:18:26train yourself to replace it with the
1:18:28head tilt because it's physically
1:18:29impossible to head tilt while you nod.
1:18:32So if you're a bobble header, just head
1:18:34tilt.
1:18:35Okay.
1:18:36Head tilt.
1:18:37There's something about the head tilt
1:18:38which makes me signals they care.
1:18:41Yeah.
1:18:42And they they're
1:18:44empathetic.
1:18:45Yeah.
1:18:45There's some I don't know what it is
1:18:46about someone's head head tilt that
1:18:48cuz if someone was firing me and they
1:18:50were doing it like this
1:18:52I feel like they don't care. There's
1:18:53something ruthless. But if they do it
1:18:54like this, it's like
1:18:56You really care about me.
1:18:57That's so crazy. Just such a small
1:18:58one little thing. You know that you
1:18:59mentioned the book The Game.
1:19:01Yes.
1:19:01I know a lot about that world and
1:19:04there's a there's a funny trick they
1:19:07teach which I'll teach you. It's not
1:19:08part of my warmth cues, but I'm going to
1:19:09teach it to you cuz I think it's
1:19:10interesting.
1:19:11Mhm.
1:19:11Don't let it don't let anyone use this
1:19:13on you.
1:19:14Okay.
1:19:14And nobody at home use this on anyone
1:19:16else.
1:19:16Don't use this on anyone else. But so
1:19:18there's this thing that NLP people will
1:19:20do or pickup artists will do where they
1:19:22move their hand like this and it begins
1:19:25the other person will begin to nod
1:19:26because our typically when we do this
1:19:27with our hand the other person starts to
1:19:29nod which makes you think I agree. I
1:19:30agree. I agree.
1:19:31What are you doing for anyone that is is
1:19:33watching?
1:19:33I'm moving my hand up and down in a
1:19:35nodding yes motion. And so what what
1:19:38I've noticed very manipulative people
1:19:40will do is they'll be doing this they
1:19:41speak like don't you understand what I'm
1:19:43saying? Do you get this? And the other
1:19:44person will start to nod and I've seen
1:19:45audiences entire audience will start
1:19:47nodding and then you think to yourself
1:19:48well I'm nodding so I must agree with
1:19:49this person. It's a secret way to get
1:19:51someone to secretly agree with you. So
1:19:53just be careful don't make sure no one
1:19:54uses that on you.
1:19:56And you're doing it in a bit of a
1:19:57circular motion. It looks like it's not
1:19:59straight up and down. You're just kind
1:20:01of like for anyone that can't see she's
1:20:02Like we're rolling something forward and
1:20:04then you're like I want to
1:20:05it's really hard to not nod your head
1:20:07when someone's doing this which then
1:20:08makes you feel like you agree with them.
1:20:09That's so crazy. It's like you're you've
1:20:11got like a string on my head when you do
1:20:12that.
1:20:12String your it's very weird. So don't
1:20:14let anyone do that to you. And don't use
1:20:15it.
1:20:15Don't use it on anyone else.
1:20:16teach it in my books cuz it's like I'm
1:20:18worried that people
1:20:18It's too powerful.
1:20:19It's too powerful. Wait, triple nod head
1:20:21tilt one and two.
1:20:22Okay.
1:20:23Third, we already talked about this one.
1:20:24Authentic smile. Right? A smile that
1:20:25reaches all the way up into your eyes.
1:20:27Highly warm people typically do you that
1:20:29authentic smile more. Now I don't like a
1:20:31fake smile so I only want you to do it
1:20:33in your authentic.
1:20:35What are you talking about? That was my
1:20:36authentic smile. You laughed. This is
1:20:37why I don't smile.
1:20:39This is why people think I'm
1:20:39intimidating because people laugh at my
1:20:41smile. Look.
1:20:43That's good. That was better. That was
1:20:44better. That was better.
1:20:45you're lying.
1:20:46This is body language. I can tell you're
1:20:48lying.
1:20:49That was better. That was better than
1:20:50the first one.
1:20:51first one. That doesn't mean it's good.
1:20:53Well, I'm looking for good.
1:20:54Anyway, number four is
1:20:56uh
1:20:56So, authentic smile is number three.
1:20:58Authentic smile is number three. Number
1:20:59four, mhm. We love a lean.
1:21:03Ooh, we love a lean.
1:21:05When in the proxemic zones, right? We're
1:21:07in those four zones, if someone's
1:21:08leaning into you, it shows they're
1:21:10literally trying to cross in that zone
1:21:12very, very subtly. And so, you'll notice
1:21:14very highly charismatic people who you
1:21:15want to be friends with, they'll be
1:21:16like, "Tell me more. Tell me
1:21:18everything." And they lean in really
1:21:20close to you, and that makes you also
1:21:22feel closer. So, if you want to be seen
1:21:24as higher in warmth, you can do this as
1:21:26a speaker. So, you can lean in as you
1:21:28bold an important point. Like when I'm
1:21:30making an important point for you, I
1:21:31lean into it. I'm like, "Listen to this.
1:21:34This is good."
1:21:35But if I'm listening to you and you say
1:21:37something good, I'll be like, "What?
1:21:38Really?"
1:21:39Mhm.
1:21:40So, you can do it as a speaker and as a
1:21:41listener, and it immediately adds more
1:21:43warmth.
1:21:44It's funny. Okay, this might be a little
1:21:45bit of a tangent, but it just came to
1:21:46mind as you were speaking. There are
1:21:48like the odd person in my life who I've
1:21:51known for many, many years, but whenever
1:21:52I'm around them, it kind of goes back to
1:21:53what I was saying earlier,
1:21:56my body is just off.
1:21:59And like, I just don't know what it is.
1:22:01Like, I'm thinking of one particular
1:22:02person who I shan't name, where I could
1:22:05be in a room full of people and I'm
1:22:06relaxed, I'm calm, whatever. And this
1:22:08person who I've known for many, many
1:22:09years, the minute they arrived in the
1:22:11room,
1:22:13I wouldn't be able to be the same
1:22:14person. And I don't know what it is.
1:22:15Like, my I'd suddenly start think
1:22:17overthinking my body language, and I'd
1:22:18start start thinking it's how's my legs,
1:22:20and how's my body, and I'd start
1:22:21covering, blocking a little bit.
1:22:24What is What's trying to tell me?
1:22:26Do I need to cut this person out of my
1:22:27life? Is there Is there like words
1:22:28unspoken? What is it?
1:22:30I would say it means do more research. I
1:22:33I think that gut feelings are incredibly
1:22:35important because you know, the best cue
1:22:36reading machine we have is our
1:22:38subconscious. Right, our our
1:22:39subconscious or unconscious is picking
1:22:41up on lots of cues that we can't
1:22:42consciously know. We can't consciously
1:22:44know that we're smelling adrenaline, but
1:22:46we are smelling it. So, I think that's a
1:22:47very important thing to pay attention
1:22:49to. It doesn't mean you should cut them
1:22:50out, but I think it's time to do more
1:22:51research. Are they truly happy for you?
1:22:54Are they truly rooting for you? Are they
1:22:56secretly angry or jealous?
1:22:58Maybe I'm doing it to them.
1:23:00It's possible that you're in a loop with
1:23:01them. Right, like you're expecting that
1:23:03bad thing and that expectation becomes
1:23:04reality. Like they've studied this that
1:23:06the Pygmalion effect is real. If you
1:23:08expect not to like someone, you send off
1:23:11more unlikable cues. They feel unliked
1:23:13and so they don't like you either.
1:23:15And so, it could be that you're in a
1:23:16loop with this person that maybe you
1:23:17make them feel the same way.
1:23:18What do I have to do then when next time
1:23:19I see them?
1:23:21Cuz I want to dial up, I don't know,
1:23:23some warmth with this person or
1:23:24something or
1:23:25break that cycle.
1:23:26Okay, if I were you, they're they're
1:23:29important to you?
1:23:30Yeah, they're important to me.
1:23:31Okay, so I would recommend asking
1:23:34questions that will level you up with
1:23:35them to level two. So, my guess is you
1:23:38might be stuck in level one with them
1:23:39because you're obviously uncomfortable
1:23:40with them.
1:23:41Research shows that the more
1:23:43commonalities we have someone, the more
1:23:44that we understand them, the more
1:23:45compassion we have with them, the more
1:23:46that we like someone. So, I wonder if we
1:23:48could level up your
1:23:50relationship with them so you get to
1:23:51know them better which means you means
1:23:52you'll like them more. And if you make
1:23:54it through these six or seven questions
1:23:56and you still don't like them, then
1:23:58maybe they're not your person.
1:23:59Okay.
1:24:00Okay, can I give you some questions for
1:24:01them?
1:24:02Please.
1:24:02Okay.
1:24:03Please.
1:24:03So, here are my favorite um I call these
1:24:05level one, level two, level three
1:24:06questions. In the framework that I'm
1:24:08researching right now, it's not done
1:24:09yet. I have four questions for each
1:24:11level and I'm working through these
1:24:12questions, but here are the questions
1:24:13that I think are the
1:24:15the shortcut to connection.
1:24:16Okay.
1:24:16That if you ask these questions, your
1:24:18partner, your friend,
1:24:19colleagues, you're You're to level up
1:24:20with them. Okay, first.
1:24:22Are you working on anything exciting
1:24:24recently?
1:24:25So, stop asking what do you do. Stop
1:24:27asking how are you. Stop asking how's it
1:24:29going. That's why you hate people. If
1:24:31you're asking those questions, of course
1:24:33you're going to hate people. Those are
1:24:34the most boring questions anyone's ever
1:24:36asked.
1:24:37Can I give you a challenge? A challenge.
1:24:39Here's one challenge from this podcast.
1:24:41Stop asking what do you do.
1:24:44For 30 days, I want you to go on a what
1:24:45do you do diet. Asking what do you do is
1:24:47telling the person's brain stay on
1:24:49autopilot.
1:24:50That was my Oh, start last night.
1:24:52No No more. We're on a diet.
1:24:53Okay.
1:24:54Also, asking someone what do you do is
1:24:56asking what are you worth?
1:24:58And if someone's not defined by what
1:25:00they do, it's actually a rude question.
1:25:02Do you know what? You're so right. But I
1:25:03I It's so funny you say this because
1:25:05yesterday I went to this thing in New
1:25:06York, right? And I was introducing
1:25:09myself to some people and there was one
1:25:10particular person who I went over to and
1:25:12we're having a conversation and halfway
1:25:13through the conversation, I went
1:25:16"So, what do you do?" And do you know
1:25:17what they replied? They went
1:25:19this.
1:25:20And I just I went home thinking about
1:25:22it. Like I was like
1:25:24We're not worth like I bet what
1:25:27I've done there is I've just belittled
1:25:29what we're doing right now as if it
1:25:30couldn't possibly have been what they
1:25:32do.
1:25:32Right.
1:25:33And I just I I honestly, I got in bed
1:25:34last night thinking about it. I thought
1:25:35to myself, "God, I I don't I Do you know
1:25:37what it was? I think I was so impressed
1:25:39by them that I
1:25:41was a bit awkward
1:25:42and then that just came out
1:25:43mid-sentence, "What do you do?"
1:25:45Oh, God.
1:25:46Okay, so we're going on a diet. Everyone
1:25:47for the next 30 days, we're going on a
1:25:49diet. No more what do you do. You're
1:25:50going to replace it with working on
1:25:51anything exciting these days or working
1:25:53on anything exciting recently. This is
1:25:55permission connection. You ask someone
1:25:57that question, you are giving them
1:25:58permission. If they want to tell you
1:25:59about what they do, oh, they will.
1:26:01Mhm.
1:26:01If they are not defined by what they do,
1:26:03they'll tell you something better.
1:26:05And that also gives you really good
1:26:07nuggets for the next time you see them
1:26:08when you can say
1:26:09"Hey, how was that
1:26:11thing you were working on that was
1:26:12really exciting going?" So, start with
1:26:14working on anything exciting these days,
1:26:15working on anything exciting right now.
1:26:17Second,
1:26:18what's your biggest goal right now?
1:26:20So, if you can, especially as we go into
1:26:22the new year in the new year, right?
1:26:23Being part of the year, I love I I ask
1:26:25this question in December, January, and
1:26:26February.
1:26:27I ask everyone, "What's your biggest
1:26:29goal right now? What's your big goal for
1:26:312025?"
1:26:32When you ask this question, you're going
1:26:34to get one of two responses. One,
1:26:35someone shuts you down. "I don't believe
1:26:37in goals." Not my person.
1:26:40Not my person. I'm a growth-minded
1:26:42person. If someone says that, I'm like,
1:26:43"Cool. Peace." We're not going to get
1:26:46along very well cuz I have a lot of
1:26:47goals. Or they're going to be like, "Oh,
1:26:48let me tell you."
1:26:50And they're going to tell you all about
1:26:50goals. That's also a great thing you can
1:26:52follow up on because then when you see
1:26:54them a month later or a week later or a
1:26:55year later, you can be like, "Hey, how
1:26:56did that How did that go?"
1:26:58Mhm. It's a great interview question.
1:27:00It's a great It's a
1:27:01I was just thinking now I should ask
1:27:02people that in the interview cuz
1:27:04Yeah, because you're right. Someone that
1:27:06on articulate some kind of goal
1:27:09is probably not my kind of person.
1:27:10Mhm.
1:27:11They're those kind of people that go
1:27:12over this. Actually, those kind of
1:27:13people don't listen to this podcast
1:27:14anyway. They just
1:27:15They're not here.
1:27:15and up like that.
1:27:16Yeah, exactly. So, like it's a very um I
1:27:18call those allergy questions.
1:27:20Interesting.
1:27:21It's a way to see are we going to have
1:27:22an allergic reaction to each other? It
1:27:24creates an allergy. Like I know there's
1:27:27a type of person it susses them out
1:27:28really quickly and that's not my kind of
1:27:29person.
1:27:30Mhm.
1:27:31Okay, so working on anything exciting,
1:27:33what's your goal right now?
1:27:35And then this is a harder This is a
1:27:36self-narrative question. Do we want to
1:27:37go deeper for a self-narrative question?
1:27:40Of course we want to go deeper.
1:27:44So,
1:27:45if we're getting into self-narrative and
1:27:47you're trying to figure out yourself or
1:27:49someone else's narrative, you want to
1:27:50ask the question.
1:27:52It sounds innocuous, but it's not.
1:27:54"What book, movie, or TV character is
1:27:57most like you? And why?"
1:27:59It's kind of a silly like dinner party
1:28:01question that's like sort of sounds
1:28:02casual, but the answer to this question
1:28:04is so incredibly important. And here's
1:28:05an example.
1:28:07How someone relates to characters, their
1:28:09values or personality, is how they see
1:28:11themselves. And people's answers will
1:28:13shock you. I'll give you one example.
1:28:15I was friends with someone for 6 years,
1:28:18one of my closest friends, saw them all
1:28:20the time, weekends, we went on out and
1:28:21there we went on a weekend trips
1:28:22together. I thought I knew her so well.
1:28:24I was like, I know her.
1:28:25I asked her this question and I
1:28:26hypothesize this all my research for my
1:28:28next book. I was like, I hypothesize
1:28:30she's a mom of three, super funny, super
1:28:32savvy. I was like, she's going to pick a
1:28:33great like TV mom character, you know,
1:28:36that that she that super sa- savvy and
1:28:38funny.
1:28:39Asked her.
1:28:40She thinks about it for maybe 1 second
1:28:41and goes,
1:28:42Katniss Everdeen from the from The
1:28:44Hunger Games.
1:28:46I was like,
1:28:47the one who's like fighting for her
1:28:49life? She's like, yeah. That's how I
1:28:51feel every day.
1:28:54And we for the first time in 6 years
1:28:56had a conversation about how she feels
1:28:58about her day that was totally different
1:29:01than anything I'd ever known, that she
1:29:02feels scared
1:29:04and lonely and that she is fighting for
1:29:06survival.
1:29:07And it was the first time that I truly
1:29:10connect with her.
1:29:11I cannot tell you how many times the
1:29:13answer to this question has changed for
1:29:14people in my life, and I'm like careful
1:29:16which examples to use because I'm
1:29:17worried that they're going to be
1:29:18watching, but has changed my
1:29:20relationship with people in my life
1:29:21based on how they see themselves, not
1:29:24how I see them, but how they see
1:29:25themselves.
1:29:27It's really interesting cuz
1:29:30there's so many people listening right
1:29:31now that are now doing that.
1:29:34And they're discovering, maybe for the
1:29:36first time, even how they see
1:29:37themselves. Because it's funny cuz when
1:29:39you said that obviously I did it in my
1:29:41head. And I was like,
1:29:44Well, now I want to know what it is. You
1:29:45can tell me after.
1:29:45stereotypically. No, I'll tell you now.
1:29:47I was thinking It's funny cuz the first
1:29:50person I thought of was Will Smith
1:29:51because people say I look like him
1:29:52sometimes, right? So, like people when I
1:29:54go to events and
1:29:54correct someone. If someone says who
1:29:55they look like, you say, "Oh, no, no,
1:29:56no, no, you look like values
1:29:57personality."
1:29:58But then when I thought about TV
1:29:59characters, I actually thought about
1:30:01Will Smith in The Pursuit of Happyness.
1:30:02Mhm.
1:30:03And if you think about his journey, he
1:30:05was broke, and he was fighting really
1:30:07hard to get out of that situation. And
1:30:09he got out of that situation. So it goes
1:30:10back to the personality type you
1:30:12described at the beginning where like
1:30:13you think hero of your own journey like
1:30:15where you've overcome something and
1:30:16you're
1:30:17That's kind of yeah.
1:30:18And do you feel you've found it?
1:30:20Found the
1:30:22Found it? Happiness?
1:30:24Are you at the end of the movie?
1:30:26I'm at the end of the movie.
1:30:28Um
1:30:30I don't know if you can ever get to the
1:30:31end of the movie. That's why I'm
1:30:32struggling with that question
1:30:34cuz there's
1:30:36Like I think I've found it.
1:30:37But I've always
1:30:39I don't know.
1:30:41Like not the end of your movie. It's not
1:30:42the end of your life movie, but like in
1:30:43that example we could have a long
1:30:46discussion about like what what is
1:30:49Have you made it?
1:30:50So the reason why I think I'm hesitating
1:30:52is because I think I think to myself if
1:30:53I say I've made it or if I'm at the end
1:30:55of the movie, then I'm like it kind of
1:30:57robs me of the future in a weird way. In
1:30:59my head it's like robbing me of like
1:31:00doing anything else with my future.
1:31:02Do you know what I mean?
1:31:03Yeah, yes, yes. If you feel like
1:31:05If you feel like you're at the end of
1:31:06the movie, I'm like oh my god, like I've
1:31:07got to do something.
1:31:08Yes, no, that's true. You're never at
1:31:09the end of the movie, but like if you
1:31:10feel that you've made it, it means you
1:31:12have freedom to pursue things and do
1:31:14work
1:31:15for meaning as opposed to hitting it.
1:31:19Yeah, of course. Yeah, like I used to
1:31:21work in call centers
1:31:23at night time selling hotel rooms and
1:31:26car insurance and artificial grass. And
1:31:28now I get to sit here and have
1:31:29conversations with people like you and
1:31:30like people tune in and stuff. It's like
1:31:32if I don't realize at this moment how
1:31:34much um how much privilege I have, I
1:31:37think I'd be I'd be pretty up. So
1:31:39yeah, I do feel like disproportionate
1:31:41like unbelievably fortunate in a way
1:31:42that I actually don't think I can
1:31:44understand. I think maybe I dreamed of
1:31:45this, but to to be here feels um
1:31:50feels
1:31:52suspicious.
1:31:54Suspicious?
1:31:55Yeah, that was a strange word that came
1:31:56to mind.
1:31:56Yes.
1:31:57It feels suspicious because
1:31:59it
1:32:01I don't know. You just think you just
1:32:03think sometimes you think
1:32:05Are you worried?
1:32:06It's maybe it is worry, but it's also
1:32:08just like
1:32:10surely not. Like I so so interesting cuz
1:32:13I had a dream of like being successful
1:32:14in business, but I didn't have a dream
1:32:16of or ever imagine that my life would be
1:32:19like this.
1:32:20Mhm.
1:32:21Or like people know who you are. I never
1:32:22had that dream. Never imagined it being
1:32:24possible. That was other people.
1:32:26For sure.
1:32:27And so
1:32:27I also I I that's a very accurate
1:32:31Like that's how I think of Will Smith in
1:32:32The Pursuit of Happyness a little bit is
1:32:33like you never really see him truly
1:32:35happy in that movie.
1:32:36No, he's always just yeah, and running.
1:32:38Like that's something that I That's why
1:32:40I asked like did you get it? You know,
1:32:42you pursued it, you're here.
1:32:44I'm still chasing after something,
1:32:45aren't I?
1:32:46I don't know I don't know what I'm
1:32:47chasing after.
1:32:48what you're chasing after. I don't know.
1:32:49don't know.
1:32:50But I think that you're interviewing for
1:32:51something like when I watch your
1:32:52interviews which are amazing, I'm like
1:32:54he's trying to find the answer to
1:32:55something. What is it?
1:32:56Always. Like with every person it's a
1:32:58different thing. And actually most of
1:33:00the answers I'm looking for are my own
1:33:01answers, and my general belief is that
1:33:02if I check like authentically go and
1:33:05search for my own answers, which
1:33:06requires some level of like being open
1:33:08and willing to be uh
1:33:10open even though there's a lot of people
1:33:11watching, then there'll be lots of other
1:33:13people out there that are struggling
1:33:14with the same things or searching for
1:33:15the same answers as well.
1:33:17Yes.
1:33:17It's interesting. I do ask myself a lot
1:33:18what am I like what's the point? Like
1:33:20what am I like what am I
1:33:22But is it not the case This is a bit of
1:33:23a tangent obviously. Is it not the case
1:33:25that we should all be searching forever?
1:33:28Like should we should we should all be
1:33:29in pursuit of something forever?
1:33:31I do love a quest, and I love pursuing,
1:33:34and I think humans are built to pursue
1:33:35things. But I also think I hope I'm not
1:33:38here yet. I'm getting there, that
1:33:40there's a point in our life where we can
1:33:41stop the grind. I think I'm grinding a
1:33:44little bit in my career. I don't know if
1:33:45you feel like that. Like I've made it. I
1:33:47feel like I've made it.
1:33:49Luckier than I ever I can't believe I
1:33:50get paid to do what I do, but I'm still
1:33:53pursuing pursuing. I hope there's a
1:33:54point in my life where I can just be
1:33:56sharing wisdom.
1:33:58Where I'm not pursuing anything.
1:34:00It's not a number or a list or a
1:34:02It's just like all I'm doing is sharing
1:34:03wis- wisdom. And giving out public
1:34:05education. Like I think that there I'm
1:34:08hopeful there's a stage of our life
1:34:10where it's just that.
1:34:12Number five. On the one did lean, which
1:34:15we spoke about before.
1:34:16Number five is
1:34:17I have to pause on lean because I wanted
1:34:19to ask you about something I read in a
1:34:20book
1:34:21about peacocking.
1:34:22Yes.
1:34:23So I read in this pickup artist book
1:34:25that I read when I was 18 and some of
1:34:26the videos that I watched thereafter and
1:34:27some of the other books that I read
1:34:28thereafter and some of the other videos
1:34:29that I watched thereafter
1:34:31about this concept of peacocking where
1:34:33you can if you're like on a date or
1:34:35you're interested in a girl or a guy in
1:34:37a bar, if you lean in too much, you're
1:34:39signaling low value and like over
1:34:41interest.
1:34:41Mhm.
1:34:42And ever since I learned that, I've I've
1:34:44seen it everywhere.
1:34:45And I've seen it in my friends. Me and
1:34:46my friends went to like Marbella or
1:34:48something. I can't remember. It was
1:34:48many, many years ago. And there was this
1:34:50beautiful girl there. And we were all
1:34:52pursuing her.
1:34:53Yes, like that. Like a black
1:34:55a doll.
1:34:55Yeah. Um and
1:34:57I was saying to my boys, there's
1:34:58actually a photo of it on my phone.
1:35:00There's me, Dom in it, and my friend Ash
1:35:02sat there. And we're looking over our
1:35:04some of our other friends and we're
1:35:05saying they're peacocking, they've got
1:35:07no chance. And that's how the story
1:35:08transpired. And then when this beautiful
1:35:10girl came over to my other friend, he
1:35:12was aware of this peacocking thing. He
1:35:13kept his his neck back. He kept his
1:35:16chest back. All these kinds of things.
1:35:17He didn't lean in even though it was
1:35:18loud.
1:35:19Mhm.
1:35:19And
1:35:21closed.
1:35:21Closed.
1:35:22Okay.
1:35:23Here's why.
1:35:24Too much of a lean
1:35:25is a bad thing. It's called a bow.
1:35:28Right? If you lean too far over, you get
1:35:29very quickly into bowing or submissive
1:35:32behavior.
1:35:33We don't like people who are submissive
1:35:35to us. We want equals. And so you're
1:35:37absolutely right. What it's What
1:35:38triggers in the brain if you're leaning
1:35:39too much is literally I am subservient
1:35:42to you. And that makes someone who does
1:35:44not want to be in control or in an
1:35:47unequal relationship feel very uneasy.
1:35:49So that is why too much of a lean,
1:35:51always with these non-verbal cues is too
1:35:53much of a good thing.
1:35:54You lean too much, it's considered a
1:35:56bow. You also don't want to lean the
1:35:58entire time cuz then you look like a
1:35:59hunchback.
1:36:00Right?
1:36:00I'm lowering my value by leaning in too
1:36:02much.
1:36:03And it's distracting. Like I want to
1:36:05lean in as a bold or a highlight. If I
1:36:07were to be reading a book and highlight
1:36:09the entire page, the highlight means
1:36:10nothing.
1:36:10Mhm.
1:36:12If you lean in when someone's like,
1:36:13"What?
1:36:14Really?"
1:36:15And then I lean back, then it's
1:36:16powerful.
1:36:17Every single one of these cues we are
1:36:19using as a bold or an emphasis or a
1:36:21highlight. Just enough of a good thing.
1:36:24Mhm. Okay. Not too much leaning. Just
1:36:26use it as a
1:36:27party trick, like a
1:36:28As
1:36:29No, no. I mean
1:36:30As a party
1:36:31No, I mean just use it like
1:36:32As a highlight. As a highlight. You're
1:36:34highlighting. Yes, yes, yes.
1:36:35Number five.
1:36:36Okay, five. Non-verbal bridge. So, this
1:36:39is a concept that I learned um on the
1:36:41road. So, I I saw this in action in a
1:36:43lot of our experiments. We did a big big
1:36:45speed networking experiments in our lab
1:36:46where we had 500 speed networkers try
1:36:48out different conversation starters. We
1:36:50recorded them. We coded their
1:36:51conversations and we looked for patterns
1:36:53of good and bad conversations.
1:36:55And we found there were certain
1:36:56questions that worked better than others
1:36:58and there were certain questions that
1:36:59did terribly. And one thing we found is
1:37:01that when people rated a conversation on
1:37:03a five scale, like five amazing, best
1:37:05conversation I had, we're going to
1:37:06connect on LinkedIn, I think I like
1:37:07them. The best ones they used a lot of
1:37:10non-verbal bridges. Non-verbal bridges
1:37:13are when someone is trying to bridge the
1:37:15distance between you. So, that could be
1:37:17a lean. Lean is one of them. But, it
1:37:19also could be a reach out. We noticed
1:37:21that in the good conversations
1:37:23people were trying to physically close
1:37:25the distance between them with hand
1:37:26gestures, with leans, with nods, with
1:37:29foot movement, with drinks.
1:37:30And when they were close enough, they
1:37:32would often do very light touches on the
1:37:34arms, on the shoulder.
1:37:36So, have you seen this like on a really
1:37:38good date? Have you ever been in a
1:37:38restaurant like my husband I like to
1:37:39play this game where we look and we try
1:37:41to guess if a couple is very like new
1:37:44couple, old couple, how they're doing.
1:37:46In a very good date, they are looking
1:37:47for as many opportunities to touch as
1:37:49they possibly can. That's nonverbal
1:37:51bridges. Even if I were to be like, "Oh,
1:37:52let me tell you something." Like that
1:37:53slight reach out, tap of the knuckles,
1:37:55tap of the arm. That's a quick saying,
1:37:57"I'm going to reach into your intimate
1:37:58zone, but I'm not going into your
1:37:59intimate zone."
1:38:01And really good relationships, really
1:38:02warm people are those they are bridging
1:38:05all the time. They walk by you, they
1:38:06touch your shoulder, they say, "How's it
1:38:08going? Hey, I was just thinking about
1:38:09you." Like they're constantly doing
1:38:11these very small bridges, and that
1:38:13couldn't might not be actual a physical
1:38:14touch. It could even be the the look of
1:38:16a touch. Like one thing that I teach my
1:38:18students who are uncomfortable with
1:38:20touch is you can even touch without
1:38:21touching. That sounds really weird, but
1:38:23like put your arm closer to me so I can
1:38:24demo it for you. So, let's both pretend
1:38:26that we're at dinner. I could be like,
1:38:27"Oh my gosh, really?"
1:38:29Okay, so you didn't touch me. You
1:38:30touched above above my hand.
1:38:32but it did the same thing.
1:38:33Yeah.
1:38:33Not quite.
1:38:34Actually, it kind of did.
1:38:35Yeah, but it kind of you're like, "Oh, I
1:38:36get it."
1:38:37Yeah.
1:38:37She's trying to close the
1:38:38intimacy of the distance. So, nonverbal
1:38:40bridges, trying to reach out, reach into
1:38:43someone's space very briefly and come
1:38:44back, trying to lean into someone's
1:38:45space very briefly. This is why giving
1:38:47people things or serving people is such
1:38:49a warm thing. You hand someone a drink.
1:38:51Like you come to my office, I offer you
1:38:53hot hot chocolate, I offer you tacos. I
1:38:55want to break the social scripts. I want
1:38:56to give you something different, and I'm
1:38:58looking for reasons to serve you.
1:38:59You give people tacos at your office.
1:39:01Yeah.
1:39:02I'm in Austin, Texas.
1:39:04Strange.
1:39:05You would like it. You would like it. If
1:39:07you were hungry, you'd be like, "Give me
1:39:09that taco. Give me that taco."
1:39:12I don't know if that's office food, but
1:39:14each to their own.
1:39:16So, hugging and stuff like that, you
1:39:18know, there's this thing that people
1:39:19talk a lot about, which is awkward
1:39:20hugging. And sometimes you hug someone
1:39:22and you just feel like, "Oh god, they
1:39:23didn't like that. I didn't like that.
1:39:24That was bad for both of us."
1:39:25Yeah, horrible. Can we address the hug
1:39:27issue?
1:39:28Please.
1:39:28Okay.
1:39:29You need to signal what kind of greeting
1:39:31you want from the moment someone first
1:39:33sees you. You can stop awkward greetings
1:39:35from happening with simple nonverbal
1:39:37cues. Here's what they are. You want a
1:39:39handshake? So good to see you.
1:39:41I want you to be doing this from 10 ft
1:39:43away. So good to see you.
1:39:45I'll come in with it.
1:39:46Yeah, you're literally signaling to
1:39:47someone so good to see you, right? This
1:39:49immediately signals their brain, don't
1:39:50try to give me an awkward hug, don't
1:39:52side hug me, don't hug me, we're
1:39:53handshaking.
1:39:54It is a very clear way to be like, it's
1:39:56called blading. So we angle our body a
1:39:57little bit forward and we put one hand
1:39:59out. You know I'm coming in for a
1:40:00handshake. If you want a hug and you're
1:40:02a hugger, it's so good to see you, it's
1:40:04so good to see you.
1:40:06Okay, arms out.
1:40:06Arms out and that's also going to
1:40:08prevent the
1:40:10Okay.
1:40:10awkward side hug. The worst thing you
1:40:11can do is like this.
1:40:13Which is kind of what what
1:40:14One arm up, people are like,
1:40:17do I shake it? Do I side hug? Are we
1:40:18going to Are we going to hug? Are we
1:40:19going to high five? Are we going to fist
1:40:20bump? If you want to fist bump, you're
1:40:21coming in with a fist bump from
1:40:22She might be a hugger.
1:40:24Cuz I don't It always that context
1:40:26dependent.
1:40:27I do not like hugging people when I
1:40:29first meet meet them. I was pitching a
1:40:31TV show about recovering awkward people
1:40:35at a very big network and I walk into
1:40:37the pitch room and at that point I was a
1:40:39hugger or I was I thought I should hug
1:40:41because that was what a thing is in LA.
1:40:42LA people are huggers and cheek kissers
1:40:44a lot.
1:40:45And so I was like, I walk in and I say,
1:40:47oh, it's so nice to meet you. I'm a
1:40:49hugger.
1:40:50Oh, yeah.
1:40:50And the exec goes, I'm not.
1:40:52Oh.
1:40:54Just
1:40:55cringe.
1:40:56Oh, god.
1:40:57Just I died inside.
1:41:00I died inside. And you know what? That
1:41:01pitch went
1:41:02terribly. Do I have a TV show called
1:41:04Recovering Awkward Person? No, I don't.
1:41:06That's cuz I think I hugged him.
1:41:08And I went forward with it.
1:41:09Too much warmth.
1:41:10Too much warmth.
1:41:12Not enough competence.
1:41:14And so I will never do that again.
1:41:16So now I never
1:41:18ever say I'm a hugger and I always offer
1:41:19my hand. Now, if someone says to me, oh,
1:41:21but I'm a hugger and they wave my hand
1:41:23away, no problem.
1:41:25No problem.
1:41:25That's interesting. If we take that back
1:41:27to the charisma framework of warmth and
1:41:28competence, it is signaling a little bit
1:41:30too much.
1:41:31of warmth. It's a lot of warmth. And I
1:41:33know a lot about a person when they tell
1:41:35me, I'm a hugger.
1:41:36What do
1:41:37Go on, say it.
1:41:39High warmth, probably a people pleaser,
1:41:41over eager, really want to connect,
1:41:43probably feel lonely, a little bit
1:41:44afraid, and I want to make them feel as
1:41:46liked as possible.
1:41:48Mm.
1:41:49Gosh, that's a lot just from that one
1:41:50sentence.
1:41:52I've hugged a lot of people.
1:41:54No, it is
1:41:55Also, I You know, I have amazing
1:41:57students. You know, we have millions of
1:41:59views on our YouTube channel, and they
1:42:00feel like they know me. And so, if they
1:42:01want to hug me, I'm totally okay with
1:42:03it. Because I've been in their bed, I've
1:42:05been in their living room, I've been in
1:42:06their kitchen TV, I've been on their
1:42:07phone. I've shared my stories with them,
1:42:09and
1:42:10I understand why they want to hug me
1:42:12because we feel like friends. And that
1:42:14actually is a compliment.
1:42:15And you like it?
1:42:16I do like it. Like when a student says,
1:42:17"Oh my gosh, I love you. I love
1:42:18Captivate." I'm like, "Come here."
1:42:22It feels like a friend.
1:42:23So, on the hugging point then as well,
1:42:24is there like a Is there a great way to
1:42:26hug someone?
1:42:27I mean, yeah.
1:42:28How how is that?
1:42:30Have you been told you're a good hugger?
1:42:32Cuz then you might not
1:42:32I've I've tried to work on it. So, I
1:42:34think I think I am now.
1:42:35Okay.
1:42:36I actually have been told I am.
1:42:37Okay, good.
1:42:37But it's it's part of the reason why is
1:42:39because I've learned a lot from doing
1:42:40this podcast, and someone told me don't
1:42:42tap on the back.
1:42:43Don't tap on the back.
1:42:43And they told me to like
1:42:45We don't like being tapped on the head,
1:42:46we don't like being tapped on the back.
1:42:47It's a submissive cue, right? It's like
1:42:49you'll you'll notice on power players in
1:42:51politics will sometimes demean someone
1:42:53by going
1:42:54"Hey, bud."
1:42:55Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:42:56It's so we Yeah, definitely don't hug.
1:42:58Um so, you're going to want to approach
1:42:59equally. You don't want any kind of
1:43:01asymmetry in your hug, right? So, that's
1:43:02why you want to approach someone like
1:43:03this, like no asymmetry, none of this,
1:43:05straight on. Um you So, this is hard. If
1:43:08you are taller than the person, you
1:43:09typically want to go up. Like you want
1:43:11to avoid like the Who's going up, right?
1:43:13So, the taller person should always try
1:43:15to go up, and you want to like literally
1:43:16angle up. The lower person's going to
1:43:18angle down, and you're going to try to
1:43:19go torso to torso.
1:43:22Okay.
1:43:23And I like a 2-second hug. By the way,
1:43:25there is research on the length of
1:43:26handshakes that I haven't seen research
1:43:28on the length of hugs, but a A should be
1:43:30between one and three pumps
1:43:33and one and three or one and three
1:43:34seconds. So, for example, we're shaking
1:43:36at 1 2 3. That's good. And typically
1:43:39they found that if we do a 3-second
1:43:41shake, it's with a new person. So, our
1:43:43first shake was about 3 seconds
1:43:45cuz we didn't know each other. But if I
1:43:46were to see you again, like, "Oh, it's
1:43:48so good to see you."
1:43:50Okay.
1:43:52So, typically if you already know
1:43:53someone, you're just like doing a quick
1:43:54reading, it's a 1 second. And if you
1:43:55don't know someone, it's a 3 second.
1:43:57I
1:44:00Your face is like, "I got 2 more
1:44:02seconds." You're like offended. You're
1:44:04like, "Not my person." You're like, you
1:44:06like cut me out your eyes.
1:44:07Yeah, it was like, "Horrible." That's
1:44:09how I felt.
1:44:09I was just getting my arm back.
1:44:11You also want to make sure that when
1:44:12you're doing a handshake, you're
1:44:13offering um thumb up.
1:44:15Thumb up is really important. Um you'll
1:44:17notice a certain political power players
1:44:20will um here if Yeah, that So, they'll
1:44:23flip you.
1:44:24Oh, Donald Trump.
1:44:25Yes.
1:44:26And he like really pulls.
1:44:27And he'll pull you. He'll pull you off.
1:44:30I've never shaken hands with him, so I
1:44:31don't know, but um I've watched many,
1:44:32many video, and he'll shake your hand,
1:44:34turn you up. It's in a very vulnerable
1:44:36place to be. We don't like it as humans
1:44:38to have this these arteries up. So,
1:44:40we'll he'll flip. So, he'll he'll flip.
1:44:42And he'll pull you off there.
1:44:44It doesn't feel good, does it?
1:44:46But what does that signal? Does that
1:44:47signal competence and strength?
1:44:50No, I don't think it's either. I
1:44:51actually think it's a danger zone cue.
1:44:53Mhm.
1:44:53Okay.
1:44:55Cuz it's purposely I don't None of the
1:44:57cues I teach are manipulative in that
1:44:58way. Like, that is purposely trying to
1:45:00get someone off balance. Like, to give
1:45:01them disequilibrium. I like
1:45:03relationships to be equal. That's why I
1:45:04want you to offer thumb up. I want I
1:45:06also don't want you to open, you know,
1:45:07offer your hand like, you know, up,
1:45:09where you're saying, "I'm going to be
1:45:10submissive to you." We don't like that,
1:45:12right? So, thumb up.
1:45:13I think I can't remember where I learned
1:45:15it, but I learned that if you cup,
1:45:17then it's signaling warmth. So, I was
1:45:19going to cup earlier on, but I was
1:45:20holding some stuff. I remember thinking
1:45:22I'll walk out there and I'll cup.
1:45:23I didn't get my cup.
1:45:25Because I was holding all your books.
1:45:26So, if I was holding them, I was holding
1:45:28your books. I was like, I can't Imagine
1:45:29if I tried to cup with your books. I was
1:45:30like,
1:45:31that would be so strange.
1:45:32No, so cupping is really warm. It's
1:45:34double the warmth. It's double the
1:45:35oxytocin. It's like a hand hug. So, it's
1:45:37super high in warmth. It's also called
1:45:39the politician's handshake. So, you only
1:45:41want to do it if you are truly and
1:45:43genuinely trying to show warmth.
1:45:44Otherwise, it can come across as forced.
1:45:46Okay.
1:45:47I also speaking of like weird signals,
1:45:50I've heard this about men that men to
1:45:53men have two different kinds of nods.
1:45:55Tell me if you think this is true. So,
1:45:57if you walk down the hallway and you see
1:45:59a man you know, you go, "Hey."
1:46:03Not up. If you see a man you don't know,
1:46:05you go,
1:46:06"Morning."
1:46:07And you nod down.
1:46:08Oh, that's interesting.
1:46:09And supposedly it's because a person you
1:46:11know, you're willing to expose this part
1:46:13of your neck, but if you don't know
1:46:14someone, you want to keep your chin
1:46:15down. You're but you're still
1:46:16acknowledging them. Is that true?
1:46:18Well, do you know what's funny is um
1:46:20the way that I think about it is if I
1:46:22see a black guy
1:46:23Okay.
1:46:23out about
1:46:24Okay.
1:46:25pretty much anywhere
1:46:27and they they know me, whatever, they'll
1:46:29typically do that.
1:46:30Up.
1:46:31There's something about I don't I don't
1:46:33know if I'm just making this up, but
1:46:34there's something about like being part
1:46:36of they I can see them from across the
1:46:38room, have no idea who they are and
1:46:41In group.
1:46:41It's like a
1:46:43I see you.
1:46:43me and you are
1:46:44And and I trust you. It's a way of being
1:46:46like, I'm willing to expose this. I
1:46:47trust you.
1:46:48Oh, okay. So interesting.
1:46:50Interesting.
1:46:51So, I've noticed that women don't do
1:46:53that.
1:46:54Okay. So,
1:46:57That's up.
1:46:57Nod down is stranger. Okay.
1:47:00So interesting.
1:47:02So interesting. So so interesting.
1:47:06I'm a
1:47:07CEO.
1:47:09I do speaking on stage. You You speak on
1:47:11stage as well. You're very very good at
1:47:12it. Is there anything that I should know
1:47:14if I'm a a leader in a business or I'm a
1:47:15public speaker that I should be thinking
1:47:17most about when I'm up on stage to
1:47:19signal I I know, whatever I want to
1:47:20signal to get whatever I want.
1:47:22Yes.
1:47:23Purposeful movement.
1:47:25A big mistake I see CEOs make on stage
1:47:27is they either don't have purposeful
1:47:30movements, they pace the stage back and
1:47:32forth, or they're stuck in one point and
1:47:35they don't move from that point and it
1:47:36makes them look very stiff.
1:47:37I believe you should block your
1:47:39speeches, just very subtly. So, for
1:47:42example, I always, when I deliver, I
1:47:44start in the middle of the stage,
1:47:46always, always. So, when I'm being
1:47:47introduced, right, your first few
1:47:48seconds on stage is the most important
1:47:50for your entire talk. So, as you're
1:47:52being introduced, you walk on stage,
1:47:53pick a point and walk purposely to it.
1:47:55Don't meander
1:47:57Mhm.
1:47:57on the stage. You're walking right to
1:47:59the middle of the stage or the left of
1:48:01the stage, however you pick, and you're
1:48:02delivering your first opening lines,
1:48:04opening story in that middle point.
1:48:06That's where I like it. And that
1:48:07intentional walking on stage is going to
1:48:08make you look so much more confident and
1:48:11not
1:48:12disorganized or um ambiguous. Then, if
1:48:16you can, this is for the advanced
1:48:18speaker, and this is you, I think,
1:48:20you want to help your audience with your
1:48:21stage movement.
1:48:22So, in my presentations, when I'm
1:48:25sharing science or fact or research, I'm
1:48:28on the left-hand side of the stage. When
1:48:29I'm moving to personal story, gifts,
1:48:31anecdotes, or a funny video, I'm on the
1:48:33right side of the stage. That is a way
1:48:35I'm helping my audience organize and
1:48:37categorize my talks. I've also noticed
1:48:40in the audience there are highly warm
1:48:41people and there are highly competent
1:48:43people. I've noticed if I train them
1:48:45that way, I'm doing a 60-minute keynote,
1:48:47they they begin to subconsciously
1:48:49recognize it. My highly competent folks
1:48:51perk right up. I get to the left side of
1:48:53the stage, oh, this is for me.
1:48:55And my highly warm folks are like, huh,
1:48:57my turn.
1:48:58And it really helps them know when to
1:48:59pay the most attention.
1:49:01So, you should think about for your
1:49:02talks, you also can do this
1:49:03chronologically. Some of my students are
1:49:05like TED speakers and they're telling
1:49:07more of a chronological story as opposed
1:49:09to like making points.
1:49:10I will often teach them to start, like
1:49:13when we like to, you know, in in Western
1:49:14cultures we read from left to right. I
1:49:16like them to actually start on the
1:49:17left-hand side of the stage or the
1:49:19audience's left because the beginning of
1:49:21their story starts here and they share
1:49:23their childhood, there's picture of
1:49:24their childhood on the slide, and they
1:49:26slowly begin to move over to the middle
1:49:27when the middle part of their journey
1:49:28happens, and they finally get to their
1:49:30arc, their knowledge, their aha moment,
1:49:32they're finally they've made it over to
1:49:33the far side of the stage, the far right
1:49:35side of the stage.
1:49:36And in terms of what I'm saying, we
1:49:38talked a little bit about the actual
1:49:39content of what I'm saying because this
1:49:41applies not just to when I'm on stage
1:49:42but also to emails and WhatsApps and I
1:49:45think most of our communication these
1:49:46days is on a screen. So if I'm trying to
1:49:49be a master of structuring a sentence on
1:49:52a screen to set people up for success,
1:49:55okay.
1:49:57What what like what is what have I got
1:49:59to be thinking about?
1:50:00What emotion do you want your person to
1:50:03feel when they see your name
1:50:05in their inbox, on stage, in LinkedIn?
1:50:10That is the emotion that you want to
1:50:12label yourself.
1:50:14So for example, in your talks, like for
1:50:17example, in my talks, I am trying to
1:50:19acknowledge the pain of awkwardness.
1:50:22I don't want people to feel like they
1:50:23are unseen. So when I say you're
1:50:25overlooked, you're misunderstood, you're
1:50:27underestimated, you feel awkward and out
1:50:29of control and anxious and overwhelmed,
1:50:31I hear you, you're not alone, I've been
1:50:33there.
1:50:34And then the solution to that feeling,
1:50:36the way where it gets better, is
1:50:38confidence and presence and
1:50:40memorability.
1:50:41And the mechanism is blueprints and
1:50:43formula and hard skills.
1:50:46That helps me gift to the audience a
1:50:49solution emotion.
1:50:51So for you I would say, what are the
1:50:53pain points you want your audience to
1:50:54resonate with so they feel heard by you,
1:50:56seen by you, understood by you?
1:50:59What's the goal emotion that you want to
1:51:00give them from your talk, from your
1:51:02podcast, from the email that they're
1:51:03subscribing to?
1:51:05And then what's your mechanism? What's
1:51:06your way that you do that?
1:51:08Imperfection.
1:51:09Mhm.
1:51:10So imperfection, I was I was watching a
1:51:12video of yours, I think from 10 years
1:51:13ago,
1:51:14Mhm.
1:51:14where you were sat with two lovely
1:51:16people talking about charisma.
1:51:18Mhm.
1:51:18And one of the things you said earlier
1:51:19in the video is that
1:51:21I think it was like TV shopping or
1:51:22something like that, where like a lady
1:51:24made a mistake.
1:51:25She spilled a milkshake or something.
1:51:26Yes.
1:51:27And she did more sales because she
1:51:28spilled a a milkshake.
1:51:29Yes, that's it.
1:51:30Explain this to me.
1:51:31Yes, another study by Dr. Richard
1:51:32Wiseman,
1:51:34who wanted to know, do you have to be
1:51:36perfect? Which for many years I wanted
1:51:39to be perfect and then I realized,
1:51:40Oh.
1:51:41there is no such thing as perfect and I
1:51:42don't want to be that way.
1:51:43Very simple. He had a model selling a
1:51:46blender in a mall.
1:51:47Mhm.
1:51:48And in one version she had the perfect
1:51:49pitch. And now I'll take your
1:51:51strawberries and your bananas and just
1:51:52hit the button and here you have perfect
1:51:53smoothies.
1:51:55In the second one, she he had same
1:51:57smoothie, same pitch, same verbal, but
1:51:59she spills the smoothie on the table as
1:52:01she's pouring it.
1:52:02People bought more of the blender when
1:52:04she spilled the smoothie.
1:52:07Now, does this mean I want you to
1:52:08purposely spill your smoothies? No. I
1:52:10did have a piece of kale in my teeth
1:52:11earlier and I really considered coming
1:52:13in with it just to see what would
1:52:14happen.
1:52:15You had kale in your teeth.
1:52:16did. I did think about it, but I didn't
1:52:17do it.
1:52:18But I do think there's like, stop trying
1:52:21to be perfect. Own your authentic
1:52:24vulnerabilities. Don't purposely spill a
1:52:25smoothie. Don't purposely spill your
1:52:26coffee. By the way, that that experiment
1:52:27was repeated with coffee and job
1:52:29interviews. If I remember correctly,
1:52:31they had an audio clip um and hirers
1:52:34were rating job candidates on
1:52:36performance. And in one of the audio
1:52:38clips they had him spill his coffee.
1:52:40Oh, whoops. Oops. Oops. Oops. Sorry
1:52:41about that. Spilled my coffee. Let's get
1:52:42that out of here.
1:52:42And then go back to the interview. And
1:52:44they rated that candidate as a better
1:52:47candidate even though he spilled his
1:52:48coffee.
1:52:49Why?
1:52:50It's called the other shoe effect.
1:52:53We know that every No one's perfect. We
1:52:54know this. It's impossible. And so when
1:52:56we're interacting with someone, even on
1:52:57a commercial, even interview, we're
1:52:59like, what's wrong with you?
1:53:02What is your imperfection?
1:53:05And it kind of distracts us that this
1:53:06research, the other shoe effect, found
1:53:08that the longer the interview goes on
1:53:10without something dropped, like without
1:53:11the other shoe to drop,
1:53:13the more the interviewer is like, "Hmm,
1:53:16what's going on here?" And the more
1:53:17they'll try to ask questions to try to
1:53:19find it. You are better off in an
1:53:20interview or on a date dropping your
1:53:23shoe.
1:53:24So, sharing whatever that vulnerability
1:53:26or imperfection is closer to the start
1:53:28of the interview or the date because it
1:53:30helps the other person A, get to know
1:53:31you better, but also not be so worried
1:53:33that they're not seeing your true
1:53:35imperfection.
1:53:36Captivate, when I first wrote it, my
1:53:39intro was really, really boring.
1:53:42And my publisher, I love her, Nikki, my
1:53:45editor, wrote back and she's like,
1:53:46"Vanessa, your intro doesn't sound like
1:53:48you.
1:53:49It sounds like you're trying to be
1:53:50something you're not." And she was
1:53:52right. I was trying to sound like an
1:53:53academic researcher. I'm not an academic
1:53:55researcher. I'm a behavior researcher,
1:53:57I'm a pop scientist, I'm a recovering
1:53:59awkward person. She's like, "Start with
1:54:00that."
1:54:01So, the opening line of Captivate is,
1:54:03"Hi, I'm Vanessa. I'm a recovering
1:54:05awkward person."
1:54:06That is why that book hit the bestseller
1:54:07list. I dropped the shoe.
1:54:10Yes, I teach charisma. Yes, I teach body
1:54:12language. I am still in recovery. I am
1:54:14still constantly worried that people
1:54:16hate me. I have a small and wonderful
1:54:18group of friends, but otherwise, people
1:54:19make me still nervous. I know how to
1:54:21deal with it, I know how to make
1:54:22conversation, but I want you to know
1:54:24there's still awkwardness here. No
1:54:26matter how many of these you learn,
1:54:28you're probably still going to face
1:54:29awkwardness and overwhelm, but at least
1:54:30it will be a little bit easier.
1:54:32So,
1:54:33I think it's really important that we
1:54:36plan to share our imperfections and not
1:54:38try to hide it.
1:54:40Personal branding
1:54:41Uh-huh.
1:54:41is a big thing now because we have
1:54:42social media, we have LinkedIn. It's a
1:54:44big part of what gets you a job and gets
1:54:46you opportunities and gets you speaking
1:54:47appointments and book deals, etc. So,
1:54:49everybody is uh well, most people are
1:54:51playing the game of personal branding to
1:54:52some degree.
1:54:53Yeah.
1:54:53So, uh as you were saying about um being
1:54:56perfect and showing imperfections,
1:54:58again, it feels like there's a there's
1:55:00like a a
1:55:01uh like a
1:55:03is gradient the right word? Is like a a
1:55:05spectrum. That's a nice word.
1:55:06For sure.
1:55:07You can go too far with imperfection. Me
1:55:09and my friends call this deficiency
1:55:10promotion.
1:55:11What?
1:55:12And then on the other end of the
1:55:12spectrum you've got ideas promotion,
1:55:14which is like when you're all about like
1:55:15look how smart I am and these are my
1:55:17ideas. And deficiency promotion is look
1:55:19how traumatized, broken, sick, ill I am.
1:55:24Mhm.
1:55:24And you build a whole brand around that.
1:55:27And you can like you know.
1:55:29So
1:55:30You're probably still going to get
1:55:31speaking appointments either side
1:55:33because you know, they're going to want
1:55:34people to speak about this stuff but
1:55:35also this stuff. But I think you have to
1:55:37be quite intentional about how you show
1:55:38up on this spectrum.
1:55:39Well, first of all, what's true? All
1:55:41right, like the very first question is
1:55:42like don't purposely spill spill the
1:55:44smoothie.
1:55:44But you know what's interesting is when
1:55:46you build a brand it becomes
1:55:48self-reinforcing. So I see people on
1:55:50both sides of the spectrum. Maybe they
1:55:52started in the middle
1:55:53Mhm.
1:55:53and then they got likes and followers
1:55:56that are like so far that like what else
1:55:58is wrong with you? That's why we love
1:56:00you. You're so broken.
1:56:02Totally. I think that there are people
1:56:03who are locked into being broken and
1:56:06being messy and people don't want to see
1:56:07them triumph. However,
1:56:09I think it is important to show people
1:56:11if you are very broken and in a bad
1:56:13point and in a bad stage of your life
1:56:14like show it and then show them how
1:56:16you're a hero out of it. That can
1:56:18inspire other heroes.
1:56:19I agree but is there such a thing as
1:56:21spending too long in either camp?
1:56:24Do you know what I mean? Cuz we like a
1:56:25little bit of oh, you had a bad day,
1:56:26great. But you have a bad life is
1:56:29Different strokes for different folks. I
1:56:31think there are people who would say
1:56:32I'll over there forever.
1:56:33Yeah, but if you're there for 10 years
1:56:35where you're just every day you're
1:56:36showing up like another day for me,
1:56:38the 10 years is
1:56:39I think they would still get likes.
1:56:40No, they would. They would. Of course
1:56:42they would.
1:56:43It's constant or
1:56:43I mean it would be mis- miserable for
1:56:45you as a person but if that's your
1:56:46brand, that's your brand.
1:56:47I guess you you said that the most
1:56:49important thing which is like who are
1:56:50you?
1:56:50Yeah, like if that's the truth, if
1:56:52you're having a decade of
1:56:54then be honest.
1:56:55a You got a of You got a decade of it.
1:56:57Mhm.
1:56:58It's interesting with social media that
1:57:00I think social media started in a place
1:57:01where it was, you know, the margarita on
1:57:03the beach. And that that was in such
1:57:05high supply that something else became
1:57:08in greater supply, which was being a bit
1:57:09more honest and open up.
1:57:10Stretch marks on the beach.
1:57:11Yeah, exactly. Stretch marks on the
1:57:12beach.
1:57:12That's exactly what happened. And those
1:57:13are people who gone viral from those
1:57:14kind of posts.
1:57:16I would I do want to say something about
1:57:17personal branding. I think about it a
1:57:18little bit differently. Um so in the
1:57:19very last section of cues I talk about
1:57:21visual cues.
1:57:23Um we have to remember that the cues in
1:57:25our brand, the colors we wear, what's
1:57:28behind you in your background, the props
1:57:30you're holding in your picture, what's
1:57:32back behind you in your videos,
1:57:34they're triggering neural networks. So
1:57:37for example, they've researched this. If
1:57:38I say free associate to fire truck,
1:57:42you might say red,
1:57:44engine, dog, and you might start to
1:57:46associate different words. There are
1:57:48really common neural networks. So what
1:57:50you want to think about is what neural
1:57:52networks are you triggering in your
1:57:54personal brand?
1:57:56So,
1:57:57for example, I like you to create strong
1:58:00neural networks. All of my single
1:58:01students, my students who are dating, I
1:58:02say your profile picture should be
1:58:04triggering all kinds of neural networks
1:58:07that you like.
1:58:08So if you love skiing, you should be on
1:58:11a slope holding skis. Because for some
1:58:14people that will trigger a fierce fear
1:58:16neural network. Right like I'm not a
1:58:17skier. I see skis, I'm like cold,
1:58:20scared, alone. Right like that. Knees
1:58:23hurting. Like that's what I think when I
1:58:25see skis. I would not be a good partner
1:58:27for them. But someone else is going to
1:58:28be like adventure, family, fun,
1:58:31vacations. That's your person. Every
1:58:33picture on your profile should be
1:58:35creating allergies and attractors.
1:58:38Should be activating neural networks for
1:58:39your person. You want them to have
1:58:41similar neural networks to you. My
1:58:43husband and I I think if you were to
1:58:44show us both pictures of the same
1:58:45things, we would have very similar
1:58:47neural networks for different vacations,
1:58:49different props, different foods,
1:58:51different activities. And that's because
1:58:53we have similar ways of thinking. We are
1:58:54very different, but we activate the same
1:58:57similar neural networks for pain and
1:58:59pleasure.
1:59:00Okay, I had a conversation with a really
1:59:01good friend of mine about this.
1:59:02Okay.
1:59:02Um they are looking for a partner.
1:59:04Okay.
1:59:05And they are approaching their 40s, and
1:59:08they were asking me about their
1:59:09Instagram. And the first thing I noticed
1:59:11about their Instagram is I would say 80%
1:59:14of pictures they're holding a cocktail
1:59:16or a drink of alcohol.
1:59:18Now,
1:59:20as I looked at their Instagram, I go,
1:59:21"Oh, party girl." I don't think like
1:59:23settle down and let's have a family.
1:59:26Absolutely. Does she want to have a
1:59:27family?
1:59:27Yes.
1:59:27Okay, wrong pictures.
1:59:29Okay.
1:59:29She is activating the wrong neural
1:59:31networks for men. She's dating men?
1:59:33Yeah.
1:59:33She's either on You're Men are going to
1:59:35look at that and be like, "Party girl,
1:59:37fun, out, not the mother of my
1:59:38children." So, those are creating
1:59:40allergies for the ideal man.
1:59:43So, what does she need to change?
1:59:44She needs Okay, so what kind of husband
1:59:46and father does she want? Does she want
1:59:48an outdoor lover?
1:59:49one that she She said to me, "I want a
1:59:51good one that can help me with some of
1:59:52these overheads."
1:59:54Overheads?
1:59:55The bills.
1:59:58She doesn't want him to pay all the
1:59:59bills. She just wants him to help with
2:00:00the bills.
2:00:01Okay, so Okay, so a hard worker.
2:00:02She earns a lot of money.
2:00:03Okay, so that's pictures of her, you
2:00:04know, working hard at a conference. What
2:00:06kind of way does she spend her weekend?
2:00:08She's hiking, or she's biking, or she's
2:00:10running across the Brooklyn Bridge, or
2:00:11she's running a marathon, or she loves
2:00:13with dogs, or she loves cats. Or she's
2:00:15eating big waffles and pancakes. Like,
2:00:17she should be taking pictures of what
2:00:19she wants to do with her partner. So
2:00:20that they look at that and they're like,
2:00:21"I want to join her for that."
2:00:23Mhm.
2:00:24And you also want to
2:00:26create allergies. You don't want to
2:00:27appeal to everyone cuz you're going to
2:00:28go on bad dates.
2:00:29The other thing I know about this person
2:00:30is is something you said about earlier.
2:00:32It's just their their body language as I
2:00:34think about it. It's just so It's like
2:00:36trying to take up less space is the only
2:00:37way I can describe it.
2:00:38Contracted.
2:00:39Exactly like that.
2:00:39Right. So, so when we talk about
2:00:41distance between like so ear ear earlobe
2:00:43and shoulder, distance number one.
2:00:45Second distance is important, between
2:00:47your arm and your torso. In a good
2:00:49conversation, we have distance that's
2:00:50fluctuating a lot. Like right I'm
2:00:52talking, my arms are going out, you're
2:00:53seeing distance between my torso and my
2:00:54arm. People who are very anxious
2:00:57Yeah, like in like just like a pencil.
2:00:59Or like penguin. I call it penguin where
2:01:01they like don't ever release their arms
2:01:04from their torso and they're very
2:01:05contracted, they have very minimal hand
2:01:07gestures and they'll often clutch
2:01:08something to their chest. Now if I were
2:01:10to give the entire interview like this,
2:01:12you would think, "Oh man, she is nervous
2:01:14or she's um you know afraid or she's
2:01:17anxious." because I don't have that
2:01:18space. The moment I release that space,
2:01:20it makes you look more confident. So
2:01:22that's the other distance you can play
2:01:23with. Just hand gestures really help
2:01:25with that. Hand gestures help with
2:01:27space, with vocal variety, with
2:01:29comprehension, that's why I like them so
2:01:30much.
2:01:31So if I'm trying to get her a husband,
2:01:33I'd like to we've been friends for a
2:01:35long time almost a decade and I have a
2:01:37sat in the passenger seat of her life
2:01:39and tried to be a supportive friend in
2:01:41any way. But if I try to give her advice
2:01:43in terms of cues and body language and
2:01:44sentences
2:01:46on how to get a partner, where do we
2:01:47start?
2:01:48Okay, so one, let's get her some
2:01:50pictures that are going to attract the
2:01:51right person and create allergies for
2:01:53the wrong person.
2:01:54Okay.
2:01:54Two, her main profile pictures should be
2:01:57showing warm and competent body
2:01:59language.
2:02:00Yeah.
2:02:00Authentic smile, maybe a head tilt,
2:02:03maybe you have a hand gesture, maybe
2:02:04that's too much warmth. I want to see a
2:02:06lot of space between your ear lobe and
2:02:07your shoulder. Make sure it's a
2:02:09symmetrical smile.
2:02:11Make sure we're not contempt, make sure
2:02:12we're not accidentally fear smiling.
2:02:14Right? So the profile picture is number
2:02:16one most important. Yes.
2:02:18Okay.
2:02:21It's a lot. Okay.
2:02:22Oh yeah, we it's going to be hard. We
2:02:24got to find her her husband.
2:02:25haven't got much time either.
2:02:26Okay, we got to
2:02:27we got to find her husband.
2:02:29The interpersonal body language is
2:02:32really hard as a friend to correct on
2:02:34someone. May I ask you, does she use
2:02:35vocal fry?
2:02:36What's that?
2:02:37Does she ever talk like this where it's
2:02:39kind of like a frying pan where she's
2:02:41not using her full voice. Typically,
2:02:43people who use contracted small body
2:02:45language often have that kind of a vocal
2:02:48power. And so, they go into a pattern
2:02:50like this, and then like, "Oh, like I
2:02:52mean, I just like what are the plans
2:02:55this weekend? And like
2:02:56Oof. Also, the intonation the end of the
2:02:59sentence goes up.
2:03:00Right.
2:03:01So,
2:03:02that's the first thing I would actually
2:03:03try to help her with is making sure that
2:03:06she does not accidentally use vocal fry.
2:03:07It's usually an accident. Here's the
2:03:09fastest way to get vocal fry rid of
2:03:10vocal fry. If you are using it, you hear
2:03:12yourself using it, or someone else is
2:03:13using it, just speak louder.
2:03:17Vocal fry happens from a lack of breath.
2:03:19What actually is happening is you're
2:03:21speaking and your vocal cords are
2:03:22rattling.
2:03:24It's a terrible noise, but that's it's
2:03:25my vocal cords rattling together. And
2:03:26the moment that I speak louder,
2:03:28It goes away.
2:03:29It goes away. So, often times when we're
2:03:30lacking confidence, or we have tight
2:03:32body, we have less breath, and we create
2:03:34vocal fry. So, just ask her to speak up
2:03:36a little bit.
2:03:37Okay.
2:03:39It's hard to get someone to stand more
2:03:42broadly, because if they're
2:03:43uncomfortable with it, they don't like
2:03:44it. So, what I would recommend is she
2:03:46should do activity dates.
2:03:49When you're at dinner with someone, or
2:03:50at brunch, or at coffee, or at a bar,
2:03:51you're like this.
2:03:53So, what do you do?
2:03:55And then you're like, it's shriveled,
2:03:56and you're like clutching your drink,
2:03:58and you're in your patterns. You're in
2:03:59those patterns.
2:04:00Go on hikes. Go play pickleball. Go
2:04:02learn pickleball. Go play ping pong.
2:04:04Like, do something physical, cuz then
2:04:06it's much easier to be broad.
2:04:11Interesting. Okay. That makes a lot of
2:04:12sense, actually. Yeah, because you're
2:04:13going to If it's in a context you're
2:04:15super familiar with, you have the old
2:04:16patterns are going to be triggered in
2:04:17you.
2:04:17Yes. And I've tried to get people to
2:04:19stand more broadly just by telling them,
2:04:21and it can it helps. The awareness
2:04:22helps, but it's much easier when you're
2:04:24actually in a context that helps you be
2:04:26that way.
2:04:27I read a study
2:04:28from your work that said
2:04:30in a study to see how men and women look
2:04:32at body language differently, they put
2:04:34people in an MRI machine, and had them
2:04:36try and read body language
2:04:38from just pictures alone.
2:04:40What happened? What did they find out?
2:04:42So, I believe women activated 14 to 16
2:04:44areas of their brain activated while
2:04:46trying to read those body language
2:04:47pictures, and men I believe it was half
2:04:49of that.
2:04:51In other words, when women were looking
2:04:52at pictures of body language, lots of
2:04:55connections were happening. They were
2:04:56making predictions, they were thinking
2:04:58about personality, they were thinking
2:04:59about emotions, they were looking at
2:05:01their clothes, they were looking at
2:05:02their facial structure. Women were
2:05:04taking in a much broader picture of the
2:05:06body language, whereas men were I think
2:05:07much more cue focused. Ah,
2:05:10broad shoulders,
2:05:12feet apart, hands visible.
2:05:15Neither of these are right or wrong.
2:05:17Actually, in fact, men can sometimes be
2:05:19easier to teach. Like my students are
2:05:2150/50 men and women, but sometimes men
2:05:23can they can focus in on the cue that
2:05:24I'm trying to teach them. They can
2:05:26understand it, they can comprehend it.
2:05:27Got it, it's decoded. Women tend to
2:05:29create a whole narrative. So, I play a
2:05:31game sometimes with my students where I
2:05:32say,
2:05:33"Okay, tell me about someone. He has a
2:05:35mohawk."
2:05:37And men will often say that
2:05:39I don't let them hear the women first.
2:05:40Men will often be like,
2:05:42"He has a mohawk.
2:05:44He's a man.
2:05:45He's not bald."
2:05:47Women will be like,
2:05:49"Okay, he's a bad boy and he probably
2:05:51has earrings and I bet you he drives a
2:05:53motorcycle and I bet he'd be really fun
2:05:55on a date, but probably a drinker."
2:05:57And they will just go.
2:05:59Interesting.
2:05:59So, this is it's good and bad, right?
2:06:01Like that also can hinder women. And by
2:06:04the way, I'm making big generalizations
2:06:05on this. This is not
2:06:07the the generalization part we have to
2:06:09make sure we're careful on. Women tend
2:06:11to globalize a cue. Like they'll see a
2:06:14cue and be like, "Oh, that means he's
2:06:16bad or that means he's dangerous. I'm
2:06:17never He's toxic. Never going to talk to
2:06:20him again."
2:06:21Yeah.
2:06:22Um whereas men will sometimes, you know,
2:06:24"Oh, it's probably just a bad day." Or
2:06:26I'll I'll give her or him a second
2:06:27chance. So, we just have to be a little
2:06:29bit aware of our own our own lenses,
2:06:32we'll say.
2:06:33Is there anything else that I should say
2:06:34to my friend in in order to help them?
2:06:37Cuz sometimes I wonder, you know,
2:06:38there's tips, tricks, tactics, they can
2:06:39lean, they can do this, whatever. But is
2:06:41there something deeper that is easier?
2:06:43Do you know why I say this? That book,
2:06:45The Game, I went off to university, I
2:06:46lasted for one lecture, but while I was
2:06:48there I met this guy called Joe, my
2:06:50friend I won't say his second name cuz
2:06:51people will identify him, but I met my
2:06:53friend Joe, and I said to Joe, "Listen,
2:06:55my friend." I said, "This book, The
2:06:56Game, really useful, taught me a lot
2:06:58about like, you know, interpersonal
2:07:00dynamics, you should read it." Gave the
2:07:02book to him, he read it, we went out to
2:07:04the club that day, he it up. Like
2:07:06he went out there, he he started negging
2:07:08people, insulting people, whatever.
2:07:09Oh, he was negging her.
2:07:10And I just thought, God, you know, you
2:07:11just can't teach it. That's what I
2:07:12thought. I thought there's so many, and
2:07:14actually when I reflect on the people in
2:07:15my life, this guy called Dan, I'll say
2:07:17his name, Dan Capon. Dan Capon in school
2:07:20was always just so good with the
2:07:23opposite sex. He was just always He's
2:07:24one of those people, he's charismatic,
2:07:26he was funny, he's like that cocky
2:07:29funny.
2:07:29Yeah, yeah.
2:07:30Just a natural. No one taught him that.
2:07:33Yeah.
2:07:33And so I look at my friend Joe, I look
2:07:35at my friend Dan, I go,
2:07:37you it doesn't matter if you read the
2:07:38book, because I'm not saying your book,
2:07:40your book's amazing, everyone needs to
2:07:40get reading your book. No, they really
2:07:42do, it's a great book. But I'm saying,
2:07:43is there something deeper within us?
2:07:46Like for my friend that has the
2:07:47shriveled posture.
2:07:48Yeah.
2:07:49Is it just
2:07:50like tactics and tips?
2:07:53I think anyone can learn it.
2:07:55Okay.
2:07:56I I really truly believe it. I have seen
2:07:59the most awkward, uncomfortable people
2:08:01totally shut down,
2:08:04slowly transform or completely
2:08:06transform. And remember, they don't Who
2:08:08is your uncharismatic friend? What's the
2:08:10fake first name you used?
2:08:11He's not un- He's not uncharismatic, he
2:08:13just I just gave him the book and he
2:08:15just like
2:08:15Joe?
2:08:16Joe, yeah.
2:08:17Joe doesn't need to have a complete
2:08:18transformation to find his soulmate.
2:08:21Joe does not need to have a complete
2:08:22transformation to have friends. You're
2:08:24his friend.
2:08:25So even if he has a couple of tactics
2:08:28like stop asking what do you do? It's
2:08:30boring.
2:08:30Mhm.
2:08:31Like start making eye contact,
2:08:33especially the end of sentences for 60
2:08:3470% of the time. Oh, people suddenly
2:08:36feel listened to. Hey, ask better
2:08:39questions to your friends so you get to
2:08:40know them better. Those tactics will get
2:08:43him friendships, hopefully a girlfriend,
2:08:46hopefully a job. So, I think that
2:08:48everyone can make small or big changes.
2:08:52I don't think there's anyone who's
2:08:54unteachable.
2:08:55Do you think there's a relationship
2:08:57between these tactics and tips and your
2:09:00actual confidence? I.e., does it become
2:09:02like a self-reinforcing
2:09:03Yes. So much so, like that is the only
2:09:07way I found confidence.
2:09:09The only way that I was able to conquer
2:09:11my awkwardness and actually begin to go
2:09:12out and try to make friends and be less
2:09:14lonely. I mean, I was so lonely.
2:09:17Was that I was like, okay, I have a
2:09:19goal. I'm going to ask someone, "What
2:09:22have you been doing that's been exciting
2:09:23recently?" I'm going to ask that
2:09:24question. That gave me just enough
2:09:26confidence to get out the door and to
2:09:28get to that party. And then when I got a
2:09:30good answer,
2:09:31someone's like, "Oh yeah, you know I am
2:09:33working on something exciting." I was
2:09:34like, oh.
2:09:35And then they felt excited, I felt
2:09:36excited. And so like that one tool gave
2:09:38me enough confidence to go out. So,
2:09:39these tools give you confidence to try
2:09:42something new and to break your pattern.
2:09:44If you feel stuck, and this is for
2:09:46anyone, if you feel stuck,
2:09:48then you have to try something
2:09:50different. If you keep doing the same
2:09:51thing, you're going to keep getting the
2:09:52same thing. So, that means you have to
2:09:54ask different kinds of questions. If you
2:09:56use different kind of body language
2:09:57cues, and if you're willing to try just
2:09:59something different, something will
2:10:00change for you.
2:10:03Is all of these cues, this body
2:10:04language, more important for one gender
2:10:06typically than the other?
2:10:08Not that I've seen. Not that the
2:10:09research has not found that. Mhm. Good
2:10:11for both.
2:10:13And what's in terms of attraction
2:10:16is what is do you think the most
2:10:18important thing? Is it competent, is it
2:10:21strong, is it
2:10:22Okay, so this is not This is research.
2:10:23So, I believe it was Monica Moore who
2:10:25did this research.
2:10:26She found that the people who got
2:10:29approached the most at clubs, the people
2:10:30who got approached the most were just
2:10:32had the biggest signal of availability.
2:10:36So, they weren't the most attractive men
2:10:37and women. She did this for both men and
2:10:38women. They were not the most attractive
2:10:39men and women. In fact, the most
2:10:41attractive women in the in the room, if
2:10:42they had closed body language, closed
2:10:43off body language, they were not
2:10:45approached, they did not get dates, they
2:10:46did not get out their number. It was the
2:10:47men and women who signaled, "I'm
2:10:50available."
2:10:51How do you signal you're available?
2:10:52Okay. So, uh this is really important
2:10:54for dating in the sense of wanting to be
2:10:56approached. Dating one-to-one is a
2:10:58little bit different, right? Uh you
2:10:58don't need to signal this if you're
2:10:59one-to-one. But, if you're in a big room
2:11:01or you're speed networking, one is open
2:11:03body, no blocking. I never want anything
2:11:06in front of your torso. I don't want
2:11:08this. I don't I So, I don't want arms
2:11:10crossed. I don't want cup in front of
2:11:11you. I don't want you clutching your
2:11:13computer or your iPad or your phone. I
2:11:16want you to make sure that your torso is
2:11:17open and angled out towards the room. I
2:11:19like croissant feet. You know, you
2:11:21parallel feet are like what we're doing
2:11:23right now. In a dating situation, I want
2:11:25you to have croissant feet, which is
2:11:26your your feet are angled toward the
2:11:28biggest part of the room, saying, "I'm
2:11:30open. Come and approach me."
2:11:32Okay.
2:11:32That signals to both men and women, "Oh,
2:11:34maybe that person is literally
2:11:35physically open to someone coming in and
2:11:37breaking into conversation." It also
2:11:39means small, darting glances to everyone
2:11:42around the room.
2:11:43Everyone?
2:11:44Everyone you want to approach you.
2:11:45Oh, everyone you want to approach you.
2:11:47Yeah.
2:11:47How many times does someone got to do a
2:11:48glance to get someone to come over?
2:11:49So, uh my friend actually studied this.
2:11:51I believe it took eight glances to get
2:11:53someone to approach. I Don't quote me on
2:11:55that. It was It was way higher than I
2:11:57thought. Like, I was like, "Two? Maybe
2:11:59three?"
2:12:00I think it was something insane like
2:12:01eight. Could you imagine being in a bar
2:12:03and looking at someone
2:12:05eight times? That's how many times it
2:12:06took to get that person to come over.
2:12:08And these are quick glances, not like,
2:12:09you know, cat like right? It's a It's a
2:12:11side glance. It's a side glance and a
2:12:12smile. It's a flip of the hair and a
2:12:14look over, right? Those are the kind of
2:12:16glances that we're talking about. And
2:12:18there it takes eight sometimes. So,
2:12:20croissant feet, open body, quick short
2:12:23glances.
2:12:24I would also try one of my secret tricks
2:12:26for daters is um generally gesturing in
2:12:30their direction. So, like let's see like
2:12:32like there's a hot guy right over there
2:12:33that I can see.
2:12:34Sure.
2:12:35I've I've been married for 18 years just
2:12:36to be clear. Yeah. Um if you want Okay,
2:12:41he dropped something.
2:12:41He's Scooter Ma.
2:12:42Scooter Ma is freaking out.
2:12:46Okay, so there's a hot guy right over
2:12:47there that I want to see.
2:12:48And I'm talking to you.
2:12:50I might make some quick glances over,
2:12:52but I also might like when I'm
2:12:53gesturing, I'm sort of gesturing towards
2:12:56them. So, I'm on their line of
2:12:57gesturing. So, like if I'm gesturing
2:12:59out, I'm I'm making a gesture for them
2:13:01to literally come over. Like I'm like
2:13:02gesturing and then I'm like I want them
2:13:04to like literally come over. I'm sort of
2:13:05gesturing, but I'm talking, but I'm open
2:13:07gesturing.
2:13:08Uh interesting.
2:13:10It works.
2:13:10If they're attracted to you at all, they
2:13:12will come over. If they don't come over,
2:13:14they're probably not attracted to you.
2:13:15Try someone else.
2:13:16What about men? How do men
2:13:18Sa- same.
2:13:18signal in this situation?
2:13:19Same same. So, like a man can do the
2:13:21same thing. Now, women are less likely
2:13:22to approach men in a crowded
2:13:25environment. Culturally, that's not as
2:13:27accepted. So, it's going to be harder to
2:13:28for a man to get a woman to come over,
2:13:30but it does work very well for men to
2:13:33warm a woman up that you she is about to
2:13:35be approached with those things. Quick
2:13:37glances, open gestures, croissant feet
2:13:39towards her. That way when you do
2:13:41approach, she knows that your attention
2:13:44has been on her. And look at her
2:13:46responses to your gestures and your
2:13:47glances. If she meets your glance,
2:13:50great. If she turns away from you, turns
2:13:53her feet away from you, she's not
2:13:55probably very receptive to your
2:13:56approach.
2:13:58So, it's a good way to kind of test the
2:13:59waters before you actually approach.
2:14:00It's difficult in this day and age,
2:14:01isn't it, to know if you can roll up on
2:14:03someone because there's a lot of like,
2:14:05you know,
2:14:06Too cool for school. That's what I see.
2:14:07And also there's like a big culture now
2:14:10of inappropriate advances.
2:14:13Yes, but I'm going to be optimistic and
2:14:15say, "Look, I'm not single, so I I know
2:14:17that's different, but I think people are
2:14:20lonely."
2:14:21And I think
2:14:22people so want to meet their person.
2:14:25So, if you are actually in person
2:14:27and you're interested in someone
2:14:30it is such a gift to go up to someone
2:14:31and be like, "Hey, I like you.
2:14:33I saw you across the room."
2:14:36Do you know what I mean? I I think I
2:14:37said this on one or two podcasts before,
2:14:39but I didn't really answer from anybody.
2:14:41I had this kid at this event that I
2:14:43spoke at.
2:14:43Okay.
2:14:44And he was in the front row. And it's
2:14:45just it really moved me because it made
2:14:46me realize that there's so many people
2:14:48out there, especially in the world we
2:14:49live in now in 2024, 2025, or whatever,
2:14:53who
2:14:54want friends. You just said loneliness,
2:14:56right? They want to make a friend. And
2:14:58it's so weird this kid stood up, bless
2:15:00him, in this talk I was doing, and he
2:15:02put his hands up in the air, and there's
2:15:04a thousand people um around him. It was
2:15:06this talk I did in Canary Wharf in
2:15:07London, which is like it's like New York
2:15:09of London. It's like really, really
2:15:10busy. They're all wearing suits, these
2:15:11kids, cuz they work in the city. And he
2:15:13stood up and he went, "My question is,
2:15:15how do I make friends?"
2:15:16Oh.
2:15:17And you can imagine the guts it takes to
2:15:18say that in front of a room of a
2:15:19thousand people your age. He went, "How
2:15:22do I make friends?"
2:15:23What'd you say?
2:15:24Well, I didn't really
2:15:26Do I have any friends? I have a couple,
2:15:27but not many.
2:15:29But I It's funny cuz what I actually
2:15:30said it took me off It took me off
2:15:32guard, but what I ended up saying was,
2:15:34"What you just did is how you make
2:15:35friends."
2:15:36Oh.
2:15:37You know what I'm saying? So, like that
2:15:38that willingness to be vulnerable in
2:15:39that way. Cuz I I said, "I know what's
2:15:40going to happen. After I finish on stage
2:15:42here and walk off, people are going to
2:15:43come up to you."
2:15:44Yeah.
2:15:45Yeah. Okay, so I have a framework for
2:15:46how to make friends as adults.
2:15:48Okay.
2:15:48I think it's really important. I think
2:15:50it's somehow unacceptable in our society
2:15:51to approach friendship like dating, but
2:15:53that's how we should think about it. Is
2:15:55meeting two or three amazing people is
2:15:58so important for your health, for your
2:16:01happiness, for your success. It is so
2:16:03important to date your friends. Like
2:16:06that is incredibly important. One of my
2:16:07best friends is Cody Sanchez because she
2:16:09is incredibly inspiring, incredibly
2:16:11smart, incredibly funny. But I dated a
2:16:13lot of people in Austin, a lot of girls
2:16:15in Austin to find her. I know she did,
2:16:17too. It was my bachelorette for friends
2:16:19era where I was looking for girlfriends.
2:16:21And we just like hit it off and like
2:16:23we've been able to grow our businesses
2:16:25together. So one is you should change
2:16:27your mindset. Finding friends is like
2:16:29dating. You are looking for your friend
2:16:31soulmate.
2:16:32And then you should approach those
2:16:33friends just like you would a potential
2:16:35partner. You want someone with similar
2:16:37values. You want similar someone who
2:16:38activates same neural networks as you.
2:16:40They like the same activities. And you
2:16:42want someone who you test it out. You
2:16:44would never move in with a friend or
2:16:46never move in with someone you just
2:16:47started dating. Same thing with a
2:16:48friend. You don't want to get too close
2:16:50too fast.
2:16:51So I highly recommend go on friendship
2:16:54dates. And you want them to be different
2:16:55every time.
2:16:56Take them to places that you love and
2:16:59try to make them
2:17:01a little bit allergic. So for example,
2:17:02there's a place This is going to sound
2:17:04crazy, but it works. So there's a place
2:17:06in Austin called Casa de Luz, if
2:17:08anyone's been there in Austin. And it's
2:17:09a vegan hippie spot. It's been there
2:17:11forever. And you go in and it's one
2:17:14meal. You can't customize it and they
2:17:16plop it down on your tray and you eat it
2:17:17like a cafeteria food. And I love it.
2:17:20And I love taking really high
2:17:21maintenance women there just to see what
2:17:23they're going to do. Because they the
2:17:24women who are like, "Can I please get a
2:17:28I'm not a
2:17:29I'm like, we're not going to be friends.
2:17:31We cannot be friends.
2:17:32like those people.
2:17:33Nope.
2:17:33That modify that
2:17:34That's why I love Philly. Mm-mm. I mean
2:17:36you can modify a little bit, but like
2:17:37there's a way that you kind of do it.
2:17:39And here you can't. You literally cannot
2:17:40modify. And so it's interesting to see
2:17:42how people deal with that circumstance.
2:17:45And I found my best closest friends are
2:17:47like, "Cool. Let's go with it."
2:17:49Like that's a way that I see very into
2:17:51their personality. That's like a very
2:17:52weird story. People are going to be
2:17:53like, "She's so weird. No wonder she
2:17:54doesn't have any friends."
2:17:56True. I don't have a lot of friends, but
2:17:57the friends I have, I love. We go to
2:17:58Casa de Luz all the time. So you You
2:18:00think about activities or places with
2:18:02your friends where you're going to be
2:18:03able to test out a value or something
2:18:06that you really appreciate in friends.
2:18:07What if you don't have friends?
2:18:09I'm thinking about this kid like and
2:18:11especially if you're a man because men
2:18:13just struggle more. It's it's it's
2:18:15actually I actually feel awkward
2:18:17sometimes when
2:18:19I make dates for my my husband. I I have
2:18:21to get make dates friend dates for my
2:18:23husband as well. No, I totally get it. I
2:18:25see it. Um activities.
2:18:27So like where's the place you like to
2:18:28hang out? What's the thing that you do?
2:18:30Is it you know, axe throwing? Is it
2:18:32going to soccer games? Is it crazy
2:18:34mileage runs? Is it hiking group? Is it
2:18:37pickleball? Like find the activity you
2:18:40love and then just slowly just like
2:18:42we're talking about dating, slowly hit
2:18:43them up. Working on anything exciting
2:18:45these days?
2:18:46What's your big goal for 2025? Like
2:18:48those are the questions that The reason
2:18:49I have these questions is they're dating
2:18:51questions, but they're also friendship
2:18:52questions. If you live in that activity
2:18:54for long enough, you'll find your
2:18:55people.
2:18:56What are you seeing in terms of
2:18:58interpersonal relationships shifts in
2:19:00the sort of 15 years has it been since
2:19:02you've been doing this? 18 years. You
2:19:04You must have seen societal level shifts
2:19:07in our interpersonal skills, our
2:19:08friendships, etc. What are you seeing?
2:19:10Airpods are killing
2:19:13friendship.
2:19:15Airpods are going to ruin our
2:19:17interpersonal interactions.
2:19:19And here's the difference I've seen, the
2:19:20biggest difference last 18 years.
2:19:2218 years ago
2:19:23you could maybe wear a Walkman around
2:19:25campus or around the city or on a
2:19:27subway, but really your ears were open.
2:19:31And so what would happen is you get on
2:19:32the subway or you'd walk across campus
2:19:34or you'd walk down the hallway and
2:19:35someone would be like, "Hey Steven,
2:19:37how's it going?"
2:19:38You know, pretty good. Crazy week. Oh
2:19:40really, what are you working on? Like it
2:19:41was so much easier to have those tiny
2:19:44micro moments of connection. That Van
2:19:46Sloan study was done before Airpods and
2:19:48I wonder if he would have redone it now
2:19:49what would happen.
2:19:50Which one was that?
2:19:50The The one where he found the most
2:19:53likable kids had the longest list of
2:19:54people they liked.
2:19:56And in the study, the most likable kids
2:19:57he observed them, they were walking in
2:19:59the hallway saying hello, chatting next
2:20:01to someone for 5 seconds at a locker,
2:20:02staying after class, and sort of talking
2:20:04and sitting with lunch table, leaning
2:20:05over someone, asking about that. So much
2:20:08micro connection, very small
2:20:10conversations. Our friendships don't
2:20:12often happen in these big deep
2:20:13conversations, they happen in these
2:20:14micro moments. AirPods destroy it.
2:20:18And I see this especially with younger
2:20:20folks because they always have their
2:20:22AirPods in when they're commuting, when
2:20:23they're walking, when they're jogging,
2:20:25when they're at the gym. I don't know
2:20:27about what When I was single for 5
2:20:28seconds when I was like, you know, 17,
2:20:31the gym was like the place. Like at the
2:20:33gym, no one really was listening to
2:20:36anything at the gym. At least I can
2:20:37remember like the rare person would have
2:20:38their Walkman in, but everyone was
2:20:40AirPod free. And so there was a lot of
2:20:43micro moments of connection happening.
2:20:44It was so much easier to talk to people.
2:20:47Now,
2:20:48if someone's working out with their out
2:20:49their AirPods, they're insane.
2:20:52I'm like, what are they doing? They
2:20:54should go home. Like it's so weird. It's
2:20:57weird. Or they're with a friend working
2:20:59out together, and that's intimidating.
2:21:01So
2:21:02I'm worried
2:21:04about this because we need weak ties.
2:21:07Weak ties are in the research.
2:21:10These very casual connections of someone
2:21:12you see at the gym once a week and you
2:21:13kind of know them. Oh yeah, you know,
2:21:15Stephen, nice to see you. You recognize
2:21:17their face that when you were If you
2:21:18were to see them at a restaurant later
2:21:20in the week, you'd be like, "Hey, don't
2:21:21you go to that gym?" "Oh yeah, yeah, we
2:21:24do. So what are you doing this weekend?"
2:21:25Like those weak ties are incredibly
2:21:27important for our happiness. That's how
2:21:29we build big friends. That's how we can
2:21:31find a soulmate. That's how we can make
2:21:33good business contacts. And I'm seeing
2:21:35less and less of that because of AirPods
2:21:38and because of hybrid work. So we're
2:21:40just not in the office that much, so
2:21:41we're having less of those little micro
2:21:43moments in a hallway or that 5 minutes
2:21:45before a meeting starts.
2:21:46The 5 minutes before a meeting start is
2:21:48really critical to your career success.
2:21:50How you talk to your boss, the small
2:21:52talk you make, are you asking boring
2:21:54questions? It's telling your colleagues
2:21:56and your boss a lot about who you are
2:21:58and it's proven, likable people make
2:22:01more money.
2:22:02Likable people get more promotions.
2:22:04Likable people have more friends and
2:22:06more friends at work.
2:22:08And so when we have less moments to show
2:22:09how likable we are, it's really hard to
2:22:12get those things.
2:22:14At my company Flight Studio, which is
2:22:16part of my bigger company Flight Group,
2:22:17we're constantly looking for ways to
2:22:19build deeper connections with our
2:22:20audiences. Whether that's a new show, a
2:22:22product, or a project. It's why I
2:22:24launched the conversation cards. I've
2:22:26relied on Shopify before, who's a
2:22:28sponsor of today's podcast, and I'll be
2:22:30using them again for the next big
2:22:31launch, which you'll hear about soon.
2:22:33And I use them because of how easy it is
2:22:35to set up an online store that reaches
2:22:36all of you, no matter where you are in
2:22:38the world. With Shopify, the usual pain
2:22:40points of launching products online
2:22:42disappear completely. No matter the size
2:22:44of your business, Shopify has everything
2:22:47you need to make your business go to the
2:22:48next level and better connect with your
2:22:50customers all over the world. To say
2:22:52thank you to all of you for listening to
2:22:54my show, we're giving you a trial, which
2:22:56is just $1 a month. You can sign up by
2:22:59going to shopify.com/bartlett.
2:23:02That's shopify.com/bartlett,
2:23:05or find the link in the description
2:23:07below.
2:23:08If you're an entrepreneur, you're
2:23:09probably going to want to listen to
2:23:10this. It's a message from one of our
2:23:11sponsors on this podcast, which is
2:23:13LinkedIn.
2:23:14If you've listened to me on this podcast
2:23:15for a while now, you'll know that I've
2:23:17been on a bit of an evolution as a
2:23:18business owner and entrepreneur. And one
2:23:20of those evolutions that has become
2:23:21clearer and clearer as I've matured is
2:23:24that the single most important thing in
2:23:26building a business, in building a
2:23:27company,
2:23:28is hiring. The definition of the word
2:23:31company is actually group of people, and
2:23:33that is the first responsibility and job
2:23:36that any entrepreneur has and should
2:23:38focus on. But, surprisingly, most don't.
2:23:41About 80% of my team have been hired
2:23:43from LinkedIn. And I think there's very
2:23:45few platforms, if any, in the world that
2:23:47can give you that diversity of candidate
2:23:49with that much information and data on
2:23:51their profiles. It usually costs money,
2:23:53but for the entrepreneurs that are
2:23:54listening to me, I've got you a free job
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2:23:58Just go to linkedin.com/doac
2:24:01to post your free job ad today. That's
2:24:03linkedin.com/doac.
2:24:05Terms and conditions apply.
2:24:08What about
2:24:09lying?
2:24:10This is one of the most um
2:24:12things people are most interested in is
2:24:14how to Everyone wants to spot a liar.
2:24:18It's funny cuz like the the rest of our
2:24:19conversation, one could infer that is
2:24:21how to like be a liar. I'm joking. I'm
2:24:23listening. No, but it is. It's like how
2:24:25to show up in a certain way to get
2:24:28success in a certain context, whether
2:24:29it's dating or work or whatever.
2:24:30Yeah.
2:24:31But then we want to figure out if
2:24:32someone's playing us. Is there an Is it
2:24:35possible to spot a liar?
2:24:36Most people can only spot a liar with
2:24:3754% accuracy. They've actually studied
2:24:40the average person is very bad. Better
2:24:43you're better off tossing a coin. 54%
2:24:45accuracy. We are very bad at spotting
2:24:47liars. And this is important to know
2:24:49about yourself
2:24:50is we should not overestimate our
2:24:52ability to spot lies. We are usually not
2:24:55good at it.
2:24:56So, it is very important to give someone
2:24:58the benefit of the doubt because you
2:24:59don't know. It's very hard to spot. It
2:25:02is possible. There are certain
2:25:03statistical cues to deceit. There are
2:25:06cues that over and over again research
2:25:08finds liars typically do, but not
2:25:10always. Like there's no Pinocchio's
2:25:12nose. There's no one cue that means
2:25:14someone is lying. But there are a couple
2:25:15cues that come up over and over again.
2:25:16One we already talked about, the
2:25:17question inflection.
2:25:19It's very suspicious if someone is
2:25:20speaking and all of a sudden they ask a
2:25:21question.
2:25:24If they're not actually asking a
2:25:25question, right? Like if all of a sudden
2:25:26you hear the question inflection used on
2:25:28a statement or a number or a boundary or
2:25:30a timeline, that's when I'm like, "Let's
2:25:33double click on that for a second and
2:25:35talk about that budget."
2:25:37So, you mentioned the number was
2:25:39500,000. Where does that number come
2:25:40from? Let's talk about it more. I want
2:25:42if I'm going to hear it again.
2:25:43Interesting.
2:25:44So, that's a double click for me. That's
2:25:45like, let's make sure that I heard that
2:25:47right. Let's make sure that you feel
2:25:49confident about it. Let's Where does
2:25:50that come from? So, that's just a little
2:25:53red flag that says dive deeper. Nothing
2:25:55is a sign of lying. It's just a sign
2:25:56that you should dig deeper. So,
2:25:58uh question reflection. A volume drop is
2:26:00another vocal cue of deception. So, when
2:26:03we're anxious or nervous, we will lose
2:26:05volume and we lose breath. So, if you
2:26:07hear someone who's speaking, I hear this
2:26:09a lot in sales calls. So, someone will
2:26:11um I always know what part of a sales
2:26:13presentation makes my entrepreneurs the
2:26:15most nervous because they lose volume
2:26:17during that part of their presentation.
2:26:18So, it sounds like this.
2:26:20So, let's move on to our team. So, our
2:26:22founding partners are um
2:26:25me, myself, uh
2:26:26Joe, Jimmy, and we all met at
2:26:30NYU.
2:26:32And we're going to now talk about
2:26:34Like, I'm obvi- I'm making it obvious
2:26:36for you, but if you're listening for it,
2:26:37you'll hear where someone is like, they
2:26:39literally lost fuel. They literally lost
2:26:41breath.
2:26:42So, a sudden drop in volume is a very
2:26:45interesting cue to like double click
2:26:46like, "What just happened there? How do
2:26:48you feel about your co-founder? How long
2:26:50have you known each other? Anything we
2:26:52should know about that? How's the
2:26:53relationship? How do you fight? How do
2:26:54you communicate?" Right? Like, that's
2:26:56when I would That's where I would aim
2:26:58most of my investor questions if I was
2:27:00hearing that volume drop on that
2:27:01specific area.
2:27:03The other Now, that's vocal.
2:27:06Nonverbal. So, nonverbal, what you're
2:27:08looking for is incongruencies,
2:27:10where the verbal does not match the
2:27:12body. The biggest and most obvious one
2:27:15is when someone says yes, but shakes
2:27:18their head no, or says no, but shakes
2:27:20their head yes.
2:27:22So, I might say to my daughter,
2:27:24"Did you clean your room?" Um yeah. I
2:27:28did.
2:27:29And she's shaking her head no. In
2:27:30Western cultures, so that these There's
2:27:32a cultural exception to this one.
2:27:34India, Bulgaria, and Pakistan. They nod
2:27:36a little bit differently. The research
2:27:37actually shows that. But in countries
2:27:40outside of India, Bulgaria, and
2:27:41Pakistan, when we agree with someone,
2:27:43say yes, or telling the truth, we
2:27:45typically agree with ourselves and shake
2:27:46our heads yes. When we don't agree or
2:27:49don't like something, we'll often shake
2:27:50our heads no. We can sometimes also do
2:27:51this in disbelief. Like, "Wow, I cannot
2:27:53believe that just happened." So, I'm
2:27:55always looking for incongruent nods.
2:27:57This happens a lot if you ask someone,
2:27:59"Do you like the new girl?"
2:28:02Yeah, you know, she's um
2:28:04great.
2:28:06Right? You see that?
2:28:07100% yeah.
2:28:08All the time. And people they don't
2:28:11realize they're doing it, but they're
2:28:13shaking their head no. They do not like
2:28:15that person.
2:28:16You'll also see this with mismatched
2:28:18facial expressions. And the biggest one
2:28:19for liars, the research finds, is
2:28:21disgust. So, disgust is a expression
2:28:24that people make without even realizing
2:28:25it. And this is across cultures. When we
2:28:27don't like something, or when we smell
2:28:29something bad, we crinkle our nose up
2:28:31and we flash the upper whites of our
2:28:32teeth and we go, "Ugh."
2:28:34That.
2:28:35So, I you'll notice that liars typically
2:28:37feel dirty when they lie.
2:28:39So, often times they'll show disgust
2:28:41with themselves for lying.
2:28:43So, you'll ask someone,
2:28:45"So, what do you think of the proposal?"
2:28:48Yeah, um
2:28:50it's really good.
2:28:53And they might even sniff.
2:28:54Really?
2:28:55Yeah.
2:28:55What's a sniff?
2:28:57Um
2:28:58What does it signal?
2:28:59Oh, it's it's a it's a it's a disgust
2:29:01activator. Like, when we are disgusted,
2:29:02our nasal cavities want to close cuz we
2:29:04want to take in less of it. And so, even
2:29:06though it's not about food, it's about a
2:29:07preference, liars will often show a
2:29:09little bit of disgust when they are
2:29:11lying cuz they are
2:29:13like a little bit disgusted with
2:29:14themselves.
2:29:15And so, you'll see this activation here.
2:29:16By the way, you know one does that
2:29:17naturally. Like, right? This is a very
2:29:19unnatural way to hold my face. But we do
2:29:21it when we feel disgusted. It's the
2:29:23nasal cavities when we when we nasal
2:29:24dilate, our nasal wings dilate, that's
2:29:26what it's called. Like, these nasal
2:29:28wings dilate and we begin to scrunch
2:29:30them up, it's like we're don't like what
2:29:32we're seeing, smelling, hearing. So,
2:29:34what I will do is I will share a
2:29:36proposal to someone, I will talk about
2:29:37something, and I watch for any disgust.
2:29:41So, I'll say, you know, here's the plan
2:29:43for 2025, here's what we're going to do.
2:29:45And if I see a
2:29:48I know that that team member or that
2:29:50person is like not that into it, and
2:29:52that's why I double-click.
2:29:54Any questions? How do you feel, Stephen?
2:29:56Do you like this idea?
2:29:57Yeah, I love it.
2:29:58Yeah, no.
2:30:00Horrible. Horrible.
2:30:02You look like you're about to throw up,
2:30:03by the way.
2:30:04I heard you I heard you say that the
2:30:06most toxic relationships are the
2:30:07ambivalent relationships.
2:30:08Oh.
2:30:08The word ambivalent means
2:30:11What does it mean?
2:30:12Okay, so ambivalent is actually not
2:30:13toxic. So, toxic is like we know it's
2:30:15bad, we don't want it, we're creating
2:30:18boundaries around it. Ambivalent means
2:30:20we're not sure.
2:30:22Ambivalent relationships are the
2:30:24relationships in your life that are the
2:30:25most damaging. They're the relationships
2:30:26where you wonder
2:30:28Does she like me?
2:30:30Do I like her? Oh, I don't I wish she
2:30:32would cancel this dinner we have.
2:30:35Am I tired after that? I'm dreading it.
2:30:38Do I have to go? Gosh, I wish I was
2:30:41home.
2:30:42Those are ambivalent relationships,
2:30:43where you're not sure.
2:30:45And they are so energetically draining.
2:30:48Because a toxic person, you know they're
2:30:50toxic. You're like, I don't like that
2:30:52person, and they're not serving me. I'm
2:30:53not going out to dinner, I'm going home.
2:30:55No, thanks. Not going to text you, not
2:30:57going to tell you I'm thinking about
2:30:58you. Whereas an ambivalent person,
2:30:59you're like, I should check in with that
2:31:01person.
2:31:02I really should go to this dinner. Oh,
2:31:03it's been 5 months since I've gotten
2:31:05together.
2:31:06Oh man, do I even know what they're up
2:31:08to these days? Do I even care? And then
2:31:10most importantly, do they like me?
2:31:12Do they support me? That's why I asked
2:31:13about that friend that you were like
2:31:14unsure about. I was like Are they
2:31:16jealous? Do they have a problem with
2:31:18you? Because you might be picking up on
2:31:20they are ambivalent towards you.
2:31:22And that is you're picking up on that.
2:31:24There's a research study that was done
2:31:25with police officers.
2:31:27And they wanted to know what makes for a
2:31:29thriving workplace. So, they asked
2:31:31police officers to rank the people in
2:31:33their precinct. And they found that the
2:31:35police officers who had the most
2:31:37ambivalent ties were more unhappy in
2:31:40their job, had less work-life balance,
2:31:43had more workplace stress
2:31:45more than the people who had toxic
2:31:47relationships. In other words, the
2:31:49police officers who said, "All 10 of
2:31:51those people are toxic." were happier at
2:31:53work than the police officers who said,
2:31:56"I don't know if I like that person and
2:31:57that person. I don't know if that person
2:31:59likes me. I don't know if I want to go
2:32:00out to lunch with that person again. I
2:32:01kind of would rather be alone." Because
2:32:03it is so mentally draining to have
2:32:06ambivalent relationships. So, it's
2:32:08really important if you're making that
2:32:10list of people who are going back to the
2:32:11very beginning, you know, the people
2:32:12you're really close with, not very close
2:32:14with, kind of close with, really close
2:32:15with.
2:32:16If you're not sure, put them at the
2:32:17bottom.
2:32:19And in the next 30 days, try to ask them
2:32:21the questions that we shared.
2:32:23Working on anything exciting?
2:32:25What's your biggest goal right now?
2:32:27And see if you like their answers. It's
2:32:29important to either move them up or move
2:32:31them out.
2:32:32Don't let them be ambivalent.
2:32:34One of the things that is highly
2:32:36searched on Google. I was looking at
2:32:37Google to figure out what the most
2:32:40searched questions are. There's some
2:32:41tools that I use to to figure out what
2:32:43those what people want to know. And one
2:32:45of them was just, funnily, how do I
2:32:46start a conversation?
2:32:48Mhm.
2:32:48It's what my next book is about, so I'm
2:32:50happy to hear that. Okay. One is don't
2:32:53overthink your opener. Starting a
2:32:54conversation is like, "Hey, I'm
2:32:56Vanessa."
2:32:57Like, literally your opener can just be
2:32:59that.
2:33:00My sister, my youngest sister, I was She
2:33:02was like, "The best advice I ever gave
2:33:04her ever." And I was like, "What is it?"
2:33:05She was like, "Is you just told me to
2:33:06say hello to people." And that is it.
2:33:08Your opener is just, "Hey, I'm Vanessa.
2:33:11Hey, nice to meet you." So, don't
2:33:12overthink the opener because that opener
2:33:14your body is actually doing a lot of
2:33:15things. Your brain and body are like,
2:33:17"Competence, warmth, facial expressions,
2:33:19voice tone." If you're like, "What's
2:33:22your biggest goal in life?"
2:33:23Ugh.
2:33:24It's it's way too much. And so, one is
2:33:27your opener should actually be basic, so
2:33:30the other person's brain is like gives
2:33:31them a chance to like safe. Okay, friend
2:33:33we're friend. Hey, how are you doing?
2:33:34Right? I I do my friend queue I I hold
2:33:36up my hand. So, don't overthink your
2:33:38opener. Hey, nice to meet you. Hey, I'm
2:33:40Vanessa.
2:33:41Your first question is where things get
2:33:43more interesting. Okay? So, if you don't
2:33:44know their name, you want to say like,
2:33:45"Oh, what's your name?" Great, I'm
2:33:46Vanessa.
2:33:48Then, you have a choice. And I like to
2:33:51take the better route. You can say, "So,
2:33:53what do you do?" But, I really don't
2:33:55like that path. It's autopilot. So, what
2:33:58I like to do instead is ask a version of
2:34:00the excitement question.
2:34:02Do anything fun and exciting this past
2:34:03weekend? If it's a Monday. So, Mondays I
2:34:06always ask, "You do anything fun this
2:34:07past weekend?" Fridays I always ask,
2:34:10"Have any exciting plans coming up this
2:34:11weekend?" And then Tuesday, Wednesday,
2:34:13Thursday I don't talk to anyone.
2:34:15No.
2:34:18What is the most important thing
2:34:20we haven't talked about that we should
2:34:21have talked about? For the person sat at
2:34:22home, the typical question, the most
2:34:24prolific question
2:34:25that you get?
2:34:27There's one story that I love that I try
2:34:28to keep front of mind, which is about
2:34:30Harry S. Truman, former US president.
2:34:32Most people don't know about him is that
2:34:34he was actually severely introverted.
2:34:36And when most people think about US
2:34:38presidents, they do not think about
2:34:39introverts. In fact, most presidents
2:34:41have to be kind of a booming extrovert
2:34:43personality. And he was very
2:34:44introverted.
2:34:45And he did something very interesting at
2:34:46the Democratic National Convention back
2:34:48in I believe 1944.
2:34:50Um he knew he was not a good public
2:34:52speaker, which also is very rare for a
2:34:54US president to become president without
2:34:55being a public speaker. He knew he could
2:34:56not cut it on stage with the very
2:34:58charismatic people. And he was not he
2:34:59was behind in the polls. He was not the
2:35:02preferred candidate.
2:35:04So, he was like, "I'm not going to
2:35:05compete on stage. I'm not going to try
2:35:07to outspeak them. I'm not going to try
2:35:08to go work the floor and shake hands.
2:35:10It's not my way.
2:35:12What I am going to do is
2:35:13try to find a way to do what I'm best
2:35:15at, which is one-on-one conversations
2:35:17where I can win people over with an
2:35:19argument. So, in the Democratic National
2:35:21Convention, it was really hot. It was in
2:35:23Chicago in the middle of summer. He
2:35:25rented the one air-conditioned room in
2:35:27the bottom in the basement of the
2:35:29convention center. And one by one, his
2:35:31team would invite person by person down
2:35:34into that air-conditioned room, and he
2:35:36would tell them his story. He would tell
2:35:37them his points. And vote by vote, and
2:35:40as the votes were being tallied, he
2:35:41would win over every single person that
2:35:43went to that room. One, it was
2:35:44air-conditioned, so they wanted to stay
2:35:45there as long as possible. Two, he would
2:35:48hear, "What are your concerns? Why do
2:35:49you not want to vote for me?" And then
2:35:50he would explain to them why they should
2:35:52vote for him. And vote by vote, he ended
2:35:54up winning the national convention
2:35:56without having to speak on stage barely
2:35:58at all.
2:35:59I share this because stop competing on
2:36:02stages where you can't be your best.
2:36:04Start creating rooms where you can.
2:36:06Think about what are your social
2:36:08strengths. You have one. What is it? Is
2:36:10it storytelling? Is it being funny? Is
2:36:12it listening? Is it being empathetic? Is
2:36:15it being a decoder? Is it being
2:36:17persuasive? What is your social
2:36:19strength? Create spaces and rooms where
2:36:22you can exercise that strength. Because
2:36:24no one wants you to pretend to be an
2:36:26extrovert or pretend to be something
2:36:27that you're good at that you're not.
2:36:28It's much better to be do what you're
2:36:30actually good at and attract the right
2:36:31people.
2:36:32And your social strength might not be in
2:36:33person.
2:36:34Might not be. And that's okay. Like,
2:36:36there are some people who are great at
2:36:38texting. There are some people who are
2:36:39great at sending voice notes. There are
2:36:41some people who make their friends by
2:36:42broadcasting and then picking out a
2:36:43couple people. That's how you met your
2:36:45girlfriend.
2:36:45Mhm.
2:36:46Is you broadcasted, she resonated with
2:36:48something that you said, and you gave
2:36:50her the way to find you, she did, and
2:36:51then you met. So, maybe it's
2:36:53broadcasting.
2:36:54I think we have to think outside the
2:36:55box. It's not only in person. There are
2:36:57so many ways you can have social
2:36:58strengths.
2:36:59I've heard it all now.
2:37:00Yeah.
2:37:00I get it. I believe it. I'm into it.
2:37:02Yeah.
2:37:03What is step one? I'm going to buy your
2:37:04books. There's two of them here, so
2:37:06I'm going to buy both of these books.
2:37:07Both of them will be linked below. What
2:37:09else can I do to To on my journey of
2:37:11becoming You went You were a recovering
2:37:13awkward person. You were awkward before
2:37:14now you're not.
2:37:14Yes.
2:37:15What's step one?
2:37:15Okay. Step number one is begin to break
2:37:17autopilot. So, make a commitment for the
2:37:19next 30 days, you are not going to
2:37:22trigger autopilot in a conversation. No
2:37:23more what do you do, no more how are
2:37:25you, no more where are you from. No
2:37:27more.
2:37:27Okay.
2:37:28Right? Ask better questions.
2:37:29Okay.
2:37:30What's your biggest goal? Working on
2:37:31anything exciting.
2:37:33You're disgusting me.
2:37:34No, I'm thinking I'm just I was going to
2:37:36I'll tell you you look good.
2:37:38Okay, so that's challenge number one.
2:37:39Challenge number two, find out where you
2:37:41fall on the warmth and competence scale.
2:37:43Mhm.
2:37:43Are you highly warm? Do you need to dial
2:37:45up competence to be taken more
2:37:46seriously? Are you highly competent you
2:37:47need to dial up warmth to be seen as
2:37:49more likable and friendly and
2:37:50trustworthy?
2:37:51Do that email audit. So, take the quiz.
2:37:53Then do the email audit. And then if you
2:37:55can, here's the bonus challenge. Send
2:37:56the charisma quiz to someone who knows
2:37:58you well. Someone at work, maybe a
2:38:00partner.
2:38:01Ask them to take it as you.
2:38:04And screenshot their results. Sometimes
2:38:06how we perceive our warmth and
2:38:07competence is not how others perceive
2:38:09our warmth and competence. So, if you
2:38:11take it and you say, "I'm perfect. I'm a
2:38:13I'm a five of five." But they take it
2:38:15and they see you as really high on the
2:38:17warmth scale, that is going to be
2:38:19critical feedback for you.
2:38:21We have a closing tradition on this
2:38:22podcast where the last guest leaves a
2:38:23question for the next guest not knowing
2:38:24who they're going to be leaving it for.
2:38:26And the question that's been left for
2:38:27you
2:38:28Mhm.
2:38:30I always love these.
2:38:33When in your life did you try outrun
2:38:37your pain?
2:38:38Mhm.
2:38:39And what was the consequence?
2:38:41When in your life did you turn and face
2:38:45your pain?
2:38:46And what was the consequence?
2:38:48Mhm.
2:38:49There was a really weird moment in my
2:38:51career where everything was taking off.
2:38:54I had a lot of years of not a lot of a
2:38:55lot of hard struggle and being a writer.
2:38:57I had a a published book, traditionally
2:38:59published book that completely failed.
2:39:012011, we won't name it. Put it out
2:39:03there, thought my world would change and
2:39:04it
2:39:05did terribly. I got terrible reviews, it
2:39:07didn't sell, and I was literally told
2:39:09you'll never write a book again.
2:39:11And I was just devastated.
2:39:14Devastated.
2:39:16And my husband was like, you got to you
2:39:17got to keep writing. You're a writer.
2:39:19You got to keep writing.
2:39:20And so I went back to it. I started
2:39:22ScienceofPeople. That was officially
2:39:23when I started like the actual website
2:39:25ScienceofPeople.
2:39:27Kept writing.
2:39:28And then it started taking off. I had
2:39:29video videos that went viral. We started
2:39:31having millions of visitors on the
2:39:32website. And I wanted to prove myself
2:39:36very badly. And I wanted to erase that
2:39:38painful memory.
2:39:40And so when I got approached to write
2:39:41Captivate,
2:39:43I
2:39:44was like, no.
2:39:47I can't write books.
2:39:48I'm a I'm a YouTuber and a blogger, but
2:39:50I can't write books.
2:39:52And she was like, this will be a
2:39:53different kind of book. This will be a
2:39:54book about really what you want to say
2:39:56to you, not the book you think you
2:39:57should write.
2:39:58And I was like, no.
2:40:00I was like, I cannot do it. It's too
2:40:02painful. I will not survive if that
2:40:05fails. I will not survive if that fails.
2:40:08And it took Nikki months of telling me
2:40:11this will be different. This will be a
2:40:12different kind of book. You can write
2:40:14the real book that you really want to
2:40:15write.
2:40:16And so I said yes. I started writing it.
2:40:19And that was when I think I I don't know
2:40:21how to end the question was, but
2:40:23decided it would be worth the pain.
2:40:25If that failed, it would be worth the
2:40:27pain of at least saying that I tried.
2:40:29That was a very hard choice. Thank
2:40:31goodness it did not fail. It did really
2:40:33well. Um
2:40:35and I'm eternally grateful for that.
2:40:37When everyone when anyone buys a copy,
2:40:39I'm like, one click further from that
2:40:42failure.
2:40:45Horrible failure.
2:40:46It'd be nice to thank you.
2:40:47Mm.
2:40:48Thank you so much. Um
2:40:50what you write about and what you
2:40:51educate people on is
2:40:54a subject that's probably more important
2:40:55now than ever. And I say that because of
2:40:57the sort of macro climate of society
2:40:59where we're more lonely than ever. We're
2:41:00struggling with connection. It's not
2:41:01coming naturally to us as it once
2:41:04probably did or at least more natural
2:41:06than it than it does now.
2:41:08And so many of the it's crazy. I've only
2:41:10been a podcaster really I think for
2:41:11about 4 years. Like I think I started in
2:41:122017, but really it's been 4 years since
2:41:14I've been uploading. And it's crazy just
2:41:16in that time alone how many more of the
2:41:18questions I'm getting are about all the
2:41:20things you write about. They're about
2:41:21like how to make a friend and how to
2:41:23show up in a certain way and all these
2:41:25kinds of things. So
2:41:26what the work you're doing is so
2:41:28unbelievably important. There's so much
2:41:29more that needs to be done as well.
2:41:31But but the contribution you've had to
2:41:33the 400,000 people that you've taught
2:41:35and the millions of people that have
2:41:36bought these books and consumed your
2:41:37videos and everything is a really really
2:41:39important one.
2:41:40Thanks.
2:41:40So thank you. It's so funny cuz
2:41:43even me like like people I see people
2:41:45see me on camera and stuff, but I
2:41:46learned so much
2:41:48so much from your work. So much.
2:41:50Thank you.
2:41:51So much. So many things as well that
2:41:52I've that I that I think a lot about and
2:41:55you know, you things you can take or
2:41:56leave. You got to say like who do I want
2:41:57to be and like who am I?
2:41:59You know, truly to then apply these
2:42:01things because there's no point like I
2:42:02just have no interest in
2:42:04building a facade or anything, but
2:42:05there's things about me which I go
2:42:06hell, I didn't even know I was
2:42:08doing that, you know?
2:42:09Yeah. And like what kind of friend do I
2:42:10want to be? What kind of partner do I
2:42:12want to be? What kind of way do I want
2:42:14to be in conversation? Like you get to
2:42:15choose.
2:42:16Thank you, Vanessa.
2:42:17Thanks for having
2:42:17Thank you.
2:42:20When it comes to food, I trust my gut
2:42:22and I trust Zoe, a business I'm an
2:42:24investor in and today's sponsor of this
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2:42:28spoken to have highlighted just how
2:42:29misleading information is out there when
2:42:31it comes to food. Take healthy halos.
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2:42:35things like low sugar and nothing
2:42:37artificial are often a sign of foods to
2:42:39avoid. Have you ever noticed a health
2:42:41claim on fresh fruit? You probably get
2:42:42my point. Understandably, there's loads
2:42:45of distrust out there. Who should you
2:42:46turn to for accurate information? I use
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