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Body Language Expert: How To Overcome Awkwardness | Vanessa Van Edwards | EP 565 — Transcript

by Jordan B Peterson · 16,300 words · 2,478 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00[Music]
0:00Why don't you study for people like you
0:02study for chemistry? Why don't you study
0:04conversation and body language just like
0:06you study for subjects?
0:07>> Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral
0:09researcher, a best-selling author, an
0:12instructor at Harvard University, and a
0:14self-described recovering awkward
0:16person.
0:16>> I know I'm a recovering awkward person.
0:18I am the person that I try to help. Soft
0:20skills can be learned even if they don't
0:22come naturally to you. The amount of a
0:24pause, how long should a pause be, how
0:26many pumps in a handshake. You're an
0:27expert in non-verbal communication, so
0:30size me up.
0:32[Music]
0:46Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral
0:48researcher, a best-selling author, an
0:51instructor at Harvard University, and a
0:53self-described recovering awkward
0:56person. She's the author of Cu's Master
0:59the Secret Language of Charismatic
1:01Communication. And her YouTube videos on
1:04body language and social skills have
1:06received more than 70 million views. We
1:09spoke to her today about decoding body
1:11language, overcoming awkwardness, and
1:14putting your best foot forward.
1:16So, Vanessa,
1:18tell me about my
1:21posture and seating in this to begin.
1:24You're an expert in non-verbal
1:25communication. So, size me up.
1:28>> Well, first of all, I love that we are
1:30angled towards each other. I have a
1:32little bit of a pet peeve when people
1:33are angled halfway. You know, have you
1:35ever seen that where they have the setup
1:36where they're angled away? The the brain
1:38loves when we're on parallel lines. So,
1:40I love that even through a camera. Also,
1:43a a distance that most people don't
1:44think about is the distance between our
1:46ears and our shoulders. It's my favorite
1:49distance. And the reason for that is
1:50because when we're anxious, when we're
1:52afraid, we tend to take up as little
1:54space as possible. You'll see people
1:55will turtle where they sink their head
1:57down and they tend to creep their
1:59shoulder Exactly. They tend to creep
2:01their shoulders up. It's a cue that we
2:02don't think about. In fact, we often do
2:04it in first impressions. We say, "Hey,
2:06nice to see you."
2:07>> Right. Right. Compressed like that. E.
2:10Yeah. You see people standing up
2:12sometimes when they do that. They'll go,
2:14"Hi." And they use that up uplift. Is
2:17that what it's called?
2:18>> Up talk.
2:19>> Yes. So there's
2:19>> Yeah. Up talk. There's this trifecta of
2:22uh I would say awkwardness that can
2:24happen in a first impression and they
2:25all are related to each other. First,
2:27we're a little nervous in that first
2:29impression and so we take up as little
2:30space as possible. We turtle down. We
2:32shrink up. That immediately shortens my
2:34vocal power, right? I it it has less
2:37oxygen. I have more tension in my neck.
2:39I also tend to clench my jaw which then
2:41creates a little bit less volume which
2:44then makes me sound nervous. And then I
2:46use as you said upt talk. So good
2:48morning. I'm so happy to be here. And
2:52what the brain does when it hears the a
2:54an accidental question in flection, it's
2:56called a question in flection. So, my
2:57name is Vanessa. I'm here to talk about
3:00body language. When you hear me
3:02accidentally use a question in flection,
3:05your brain goes from listening to
3:07scrutinizing.
3:09The reason for this is because liars
3:11often accidentally use the question in
3:13reflection because they're asking, "Do
3:15you believe this?" So if I say to my
3:18daughter, you know, did you take the
3:19cookie from the cookie jar? And she
3:21goes, no.
3:24>> Right. Right.
3:25>> That movement, it subconsciously, even
3:27if you're not lying, it triggers the
3:29part of our brain that goes, "Uh-oh,
3:31something's off here." And we don't like
3:32to hear people who are questioning
3:34themselves cuz we don't want to feel
3:35that we're questioning. And so I think
3:37that that trifecta in that first
3:38impression, and you do it, you did it
3:40beautifully. Maximizing this distance,
3:42that's the most important one. Second, I
3:44can see space between your torso and
3:46your arm right now. And that is a very
3:49subtle signal of you're comfortable
3:51enough that you're not trying to block
3:53or protect your torso. Anytime we're
3:55tight to the side or tight exactly when
3:58tight to the side, that signals I feel a
4:01little bit discomfort. I want to protect
4:02my vital organs. Even if we're just cold
4:05and so what I say to people is you could
4:07be doing this because you're actually
4:09nervous. But you could be doing it out
4:11of bad habit. And a lot of our
4:12non-verbal pet peeves are bad habits or
4:14because you're cold or because you're
4:16allergic. It doesn't matter your reason.
4:18All that matters is the people who are
4:20watching you. They're making a very
4:22quick impression of you. And it often
4:23happens, I'm sad to say, less in less
4:25than a second. I'm quickly seeing are we
4:28aligned? He's taking space here. I see
4:31space. He's not protective. Oh, and we
4:33see a lot of vocal flexibility in that
4:36very first word. And our verbal first
4:38impression usually happens on hello.
4:40>> H. So that that uptalk I I see a lot of
4:44people doing that and it seems to me
4:48that that's a sign of appeal to
4:51authority. It's a sign of difference.
4:54It's a sign um it's also a way of
4:57signaling harmlessness because children
5:00use uplift
5:02a lot uptalk a lot. What it indicates to
5:05me when I see someone doing that is it's
5:07either a prolongation of immaturity
5:11or it's it can be manipulative, right,
5:14to to mask yourself in a way that so you
5:18appear much more harmless than you
5:19actually are. Um, it's I suppose
5:25it's it's a way of also
5:28force stalling aggression
5:32because if you signal that you're
5:33immature, then what you're doing is
5:36you're asking for support from other
5:38people.
5:39>> Yeah. No, I think that's right. I I see
5:41any kind of negative non-verbal cue and
5:44cues are all contextual, but let's use
5:46uptalk as an example. There's actually
5:48two factors. There's external and
5:50internal. External is exactly what you
5:52just mentioned. Maybe you're trying to
5:53show difference. Maybe you're trying to
5:55show submissiveness, right? You'll often
5:57have people who they're asking
6:00permission or they're trying to show,
6:01I'm not a threat to you. Those are
6:03external reasons. You also might have
6:05external reasons that someone makes you
6:07very anxious or nervous. And so you're
6:09with a boss or you're in a negotiation.
6:11I hear uptalk a lot in sales contexts
6:14where someone asks their price. So,
6:17they're on the phone and they say, you
6:19know, we'd we'd love to work with you
6:20and the price of this service is $5,000.
6:24Now, what what they did there is they
6:26are internally thinking, I'm not sure
6:29about this number and neither should
6:32you. Or are you going to say yes to this
6:33number? I'm worried you won't. And so,
6:37that gives away your vocal competence
6:40because you're saying to this person,
6:41there is room to negotiate here. or we
6:44ask a boundary because we're nervous
6:45about the external source. The internal
6:47reasons though, and this is I think
6:49where it gets more interesting, is if
6:51you don't feel worthy, if you have
6:54self-doubt, if you feel like you don't
6:56belong or you have imposter syndrome,
6:58which so many people do, you use uptalk
7:01regardless of the outside. And so you go
7:03into a presentation or a meeting or a
7:05date or an interview and you ask your
7:07name, you ask your value, you ask your
7:10salary, you ask your answer, and people
7:12go, "Uh, I can't trust this person." But
7:15it actually has it's not a decept it's
7:17not being deceptive. They're literally
7:18just so anxious they cannot deliver with
7:21vocal confidence.
7:22>> Do you think that assessing the
7:24situation that way? So people are going
7:27to make their assessments based on those
7:29non-verbal cues. Hypothetically,
7:33the assessments evolved and have
7:36function just like the behavioral
7:37demonstrations. And so
7:41I one of the things that I was
7:43considering when I was reading I I was
7:45reading Q's master the secret language
7:47of charismatic communication.
7:51I I was curious. You lay things out very
7:54explicitly
7:55and it's hard for people to learn to
7:58change their behavior as a consequence
8:00of mere explicit instruction too. But
8:05why would we presume that there's
8:06actually a gap that needs to be closed
8:10between how someone is presenting
8:13themselves and the inference? Like why
8:15shouldn't I just assume that if someone
8:17is
8:19adopting a prey position P R E Y prey
8:22and they're
8:25indicating anxiety and they're using up
8:29talk why shouldn't I indicate why
8:31shouldn't I conclude
8:33that what that non-verbal behavior is
8:36telling me is actually correct now you
8:39you talked a little bit about
8:43about bad habits
8:45And that maybe that's part of the
8:47answer. So
8:49>> yes, um this is such a great question.
8:50Bad habits is one, but I actually have a
8:52bigger one and this is I think the
8:54reason why I wrote this book. Most
8:56people have very very good ideas.
8:59They're very wellprepared. They have a
9:00lot of competence or books smarts and
9:02they have no idea how to share that. So
9:05their competence is there, their ideas
9:07are very good, but when they get in the
9:09room, they have social anxiety, they
9:11have awkwardness, they're not sure how
9:13to read cues, and so the prey behavior,
9:16the uptalk, the the bad non-verbal
9:19habits come into play because they are
9:21anxious about their presence but not
9:23their ideas. So my what I makes me angry
9:28is when you have someone who has a
9:30brilliant idea, a great presentation,
9:32they'd be a great hireer in an
9:33interview, but they show up and they
9:34have no idea how to answer the
9:36questions. Even though their competence
9:38is there, they're so nervous about their
9:40presence, they can't show it.
9:42>> These are questions that take cultures
9:44thousands of years to answer. During
9:47answer the call, I take questions from
9:49people just like you about their
9:50problems, opportunities, challenges, or
9:53when they simply need advice.
9:54>> How do I balance all of this grief
9:56responsibility? How do you repair this
9:59kind of damage?
10:00>> My daughter Michaela guides the
10:02conversations as we hopefully help
10:04people navigate their lives. Everyone
10:06has their own destiny. Everyone.
10:11[Music]
10:13Okay. So your primary target, let's say,
10:17is people who subvert themselves
10:21unconsciously
10:23and
10:24portray themselves as less competent
10:26than they actually are. And so that
10:29would be likely associated with high
10:32trait neuroticism.
10:34>> My favorite personality trait.
10:35>> If you
10:37if you if you look at what predicts
10:39success, this is something else I wanted
10:41to talk to you about. You talked about
10:43warmth and and competence and the best
10:48marker on the personality side for
10:50competence is conscientiousness.
10:54But warmth is more ambiguous I would
10:56say. And so we should delve into that
10:58because
11:00the literature that I read on management
11:02styles suggested that or management
11:05personality suggested generally that
11:08less agreeable managers are more
11:11effective. Now, it's a hard thing to
11:14parse apart a because that immature
11:19self-presentation you described, that
11:22could be a consequence of neuroticism,
11:25but it could also be a consequence of
11:28agreeableness that's too high, right?
11:31And so, if you're agreeable, you don't
11:33want to come across as a threat.
11:36And so, you can revert to behaviors that
11:39indicate that you're harmless. Okay. And
11:42so,
11:44all right. So, we're going to talk about
11:46people who are
11:48undermining their own ability to
11:50progress forward because they're they
11:52lack what do they lack? They lack social
11:56skill
11:57>> or they're just unconscious of the way
11:59they're presenting themselves.
12:00>> It's a it's a bad combination of, you
12:03know, I I call them high achieving
12:04awkward folks, right? Like they really
12:06want to do well, very smart. So it's uh
12:09uh yes it can be a lack of social skill.
12:12It also could be an overemphasis on IQ
12:15over PQ where they're they were so
12:18focused for so long on developing test
12:20scores and books smarts and studying and
12:22they focus a lot on the data. I work
12:24with a lot of engineers very highly
12:25technical folks and they're very very
12:28hyperfocused on their numbers but they
12:30get in the room and they have no idea
12:32how to make eye contact. They have no
12:33idea. So, that's a lack of knowledge
12:35where as long as if they're told, "Hey,
12:38here are the cues for warmth and
12:40competence. I only want you to try cues
12:41on that actually work for you. I'm I'm
12:44there's 97 different cues I've sort of
12:46identified, and there's some that work
12:47for people and there's some that don't."
12:49Okay, you try on a couple of cues that
12:51work for you. Here's the recipe of
12:52warmth and competence. If you add those
12:54cues, people are more likely to believe
12:57your data. And this comes directly from
12:58the research. So, Dr. Susan Fisk is sort
13:00of the pioneer in it's called stereotype
13:03content model right the warmth and
13:04competence model and this she said that
13:08competence without warmth is likely to
13:10leave us feeling suspicious
13:13and suspicious that is the killer
13:16because what happens is someone gets in
13:18the room they're over hyperfocused on
13:20the numbers and and the idea which is
13:22which is great but they get in the room
13:23they think my ideas will speak for
13:25themselves I don't need to add warmth
13:28and then they don't even know what
13:29warmth be. So, even when they get in the
13:31room and they can feel, uh-oh, people
13:34are suspicious of me. They're asking me
13:36really hard questions. They're making
13:38not making eye contact. They're they're
13:39not believing my slides. Then they're
13:41like, what do I do? What do I do? And
13:42so, then it creates this horrible cycle
13:44of awkwardness where it gets even worse.
13:46>> Right. Right. So, people will note from
13:48the non-verbal behavior of the audience
13:50members that they're not being attended
13:52to. Right. So, they lose the audience.
13:55So, let me tell you some things that I
13:57do when I'm lecturing. and you can
13:59comment on them if you would. So I never
14:03use notes.
14:06So and my my sense of that is that if
14:11you have to use notes,
14:13then you actually don't know what you're
14:15talking about. And then
14:18someone might say, well, I have to
14:20discuss some very complicated material
14:23that I'm not I haven't fully mastered
14:25and so I need the details of the notes.
14:28And my response to that usually is pitch
14:31at the level that you're able to, right?
14:35And so then I I also try to remember
14:39before I go on stage that I'm happy to
14:41be there and that I'm pleased that the
14:44audience is there. So, I'm making a real
14:47effort not to regard them as adversaries
14:49or judgmental adversaries because I
14:52believe that people can tell if that's
14:54your assumption pretty much the moment
14:57that you walk on stage. Your non-verbal
15:00cues indicate fear of the audience. And
15:03then the audience is wondering what the
15:07hell you're doing there if you're afraid
15:09of them. And then I also make eye
15:13contact with people continually when I'm
15:15speaking. So I'm never or seldomly
15:18speaking to the crowd. It's one person
15:21at a time with eye contact. And the
15:24advantage to that is that you can tell
15:27by watching the person that you're
15:29making eye contact with whether they're
15:33receiving the message.
15:35There's also a a chemical component
15:37there that's going to help any presenter
15:39which is, you know, we talk about
15:40warmth. Well, what does warmth mean?
15:42It's one of the harder ones. I agree
15:43competence tied to conscientiousness.
15:45Yes, warmth is hard because it's tied to
15:48chemically speaking oxytocin. Now, we
15:50know oxytocin is very complicated. Does
15:52a lot of things in our bodies. But the
15:53way that we produce it socially is two
15:56major ways. Touch, so handshake, high
15:59five, fist bump, or eye contact. In
16:02fact, research even shows that you and I
16:03can make oxytocin even through a webcam.
16:05As long as I can see your face and you
16:07can see mine. So, when you get on stage
16:09and you're trying to very quickly build
16:11trust, your competence is there. You're
16:12going to speak without notes. Great. The
16:14way that you physically, physiologically
16:17produce warmth is by trying to make eye
16:20contact with individual people in the
16:21audience. And I will add a little tip on
16:23top of yours cuz I agree with you. I
16:26make eye contact with my nods if
16:29someone's in the audience.
16:30>> Oh, yes. That's a good one. Yeah,
16:31>> I find
16:32>> Yeah. Yeah. You want to make eye contact
16:34with people that are paying attention.
16:36>> Paying attention. And I know I'm a
16:38recovering awkward person. Okay. I am
16:40the person that I try to help, which is
16:42a high achieving awkward person. If I'm
16:44on stage and I sense
16:48negative doubt, someone who's not on my
16:50side, I can get in my own head and then
16:52all of a sudden my non-verbals are off,
16:54my confidence is off. But if I find my
16:56ners, I know I'm with people. They are
16:58with me. And so I make eye contact with
17:00them. It's a gift to them. I'm gifting
17:02them oxytocin. But more importantly,
17:04it's a gift to me. I get oxytocin which
17:07makes me feel connected, belonging, and
17:11calm, right, which I need on stage. So
17:13eye contact with individual people and
17:15your nauts is extremely important. The
17:18second thing that you mentioned was or
17:20one of the things you mentioned was not
17:22having notes. So I'm going to add a
17:24nuance here. I very much agree that your
17:26notes are distracting for the audience,
17:28right? If you're shuffling around flashc
17:30cards or you're trying to look at notes
17:32in your podium, it's the audience is
17:34going to wonder, well, why where is
17:35their competence? Why didn't they why
17:36don't they know this so well they can
17:37deliver it to me? I would add though,
17:40it's really important to reduce your
17:42audience's cognitive load.
17:45I I think just like you, I'm presenting
17:47some very complex topics. You know, I'm
17:50going very fast on stage. I know that if
17:52I'm just delivering to them with one
17:54mode verbal, they're having to take that
17:57all in just by listening. So, I will
18:00sometimes have notes for myself, but
18:02also really for the audience with
18:04visuals or um bullets behind me. So, my
18:08slides are kind of my notes in terms of
18:10how I want to pace myself, but also I'm
18:13lowering listeners cognitive load by
18:16saying, "Hey, warmth and competence is
18:1882% of your impressions." And then
18:21behind me I have a giant slide that says
18:2382% of our impressions are warmth and
18:25competence. That does two things. One,
18:26if heaven forbid I forgot the number
18:29because I got nervous, it would be
18:30behind me, but I know it. But more
18:32importantly, they see that with a visual
18:35of how much that is in a pie chart and
18:38it doubles up the layer of
18:39understanding. The other thing I'll note
18:42here if we're talking about cognitive
18:43load is the importance of hand gestures.
18:45I think as a presenter and I don't know
18:47how much you think about this on stage.
18:49I think it's important that we Dr. Susan
18:52Goldwin Meadow is the researcher behind
18:54this that the more gestures you add
18:56especially if they're explanatory
18:58gestures the more information is
19:00conveyed. So if I say to you you know
19:02Jordan I have uh five diff I have three
19:04different ideas and I hold up five. It's
19:06even hard to to misalign them and I hold
19:08up the I hold up five but I say I have
19:10three. Your brain is like no no no
19:12Vanessa it's five. you're actually more
19:14likely to believe my gesture over my
19:15words. Or if I were to say, "Today I
19:17have a really big idea and I hold up
19:19like I'm holding a little penny." Your
19:21brain kind of goes, "No, it's a small
19:23idea. It looks so small." So if you can
19:25demonstrate concept phase one, phase
19:28two, we have three different things.
19:31That's like giving notes to the
19:32audience. And so I think that notes is
19:35an interesting um you can be you can be
19:37playful with it with visual notes, but
19:39also even gesture notes.
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20:52[Music]
20:54>> Mhm.
20:55So I tend to gesture a lot when I'm
20:58lecturing and I get parodyied for that
21:01which is fine but I'm bringing that up
21:04because it indicates that it's
21:07noticeable. Now you said that you're a
21:10recovering awkward person but you
21:13gesture quite a lot and so how much of
21:17the persona that you have did you
21:20develop like consciously?
21:22>> Yes. I mean, you come across, let me
21:24see, you come across your,
21:27let's how would I say? Well, your
21:28shoulders are are back. So, that's
21:32that's relevant to that concept of
21:34fronting that you described. So, you're
21:36not closed off. Um, you're you're very
21:41attentive in terms of eye contact and
21:44you use a lot of non-verbal gestures.
21:47Now, my suspicions are that that would
21:50be rare among someone who's
21:54awkward. And so, how did you would you
21:58say that you learn to let yourself use
22:01hand gestures or did you learn did you
22:04actually practice? How much of the way
22:06that you're presenting yourself would
22:07you say is a consequence of conscious
22:10practice?
22:11>> You know, awkwardness shows up a lot of
22:13different ways and this is one of my
22:14favorite topics. The stereotype about
22:17awkwardness is still less gesture, less
22:21attentiveness, lack of eye contact. But
22:24that's only one way that awkwardness or
22:26even social fear shows up. There's also
22:28awkwardness in bigger, more gestures,
22:32over-the-top gestures. And in fact,
22:34that's where I skew.
22:37So I skew quite high on um the gestures.
22:40In fact, there's in non-verbal, I like
22:42to say there's there's always too much
22:43of a good thing. So, I love a gesture,
22:46but if I had hand gestures for every
22:48single word, it would be interpretive
22:49dance. I love nodding, but I actually
22:52nod too much. I'm an overn
22:58gestures, movement, nodding. So, I've
23:01had to just just dial down a little bit.
23:04So, it's always when people work with
23:06me, I'm like, "Okay, we got to figure
23:07out where are you? Are you on the low
23:09end where we have to dial up to your
23:11comfort level, but we have to add a
23:12little more gesture? Are you too high?"
23:13So I when I was for example let's take
23:15nodding nodding in western cultures
23:18actually most cultures except Bulgaria,
23:20India and Pakistan uh this vertical nod
23:23is a yes and a horizontal nod is a no.
23:26So we recognize this in those cultures
23:29as being affirmative or agreeing. Also
23:31if the research shows that if I triple
23:34nod while you're speaking you're likely
23:36to speak 67% longer. So, if I want you
23:39to open up and I go, "Mhm. Mhm. Mhm."
23:42That tells you, "I'm here. Tell me
23:44more." But if I'm in conversation with
23:46you and the entire time I'm uh-huh,
23:49uh-huh, uh-huh, it actually takes away
23:52my competence. It makes me look like I
23:54am too agreeable or a people pleaser.
23:56So, I've had to replace
23:59the nod with a head tilt because it's
24:01physically impossible to do both at
24:03once. So I had some awkward moments
24:06there where I was like I have to nod
24:08less even especially if I don't agree
24:10with someone. So what was happening for
24:12me on a personal note is I was over
24:15nodding. I was over gesturing. I had too
24:17much movement and it was distracting and
24:20I didn't even agree with folks. I was
24:22just so nervous about being liked. I so
24:25wanted to be liked that you know I would
24:27yes Jordan please like me. You know I
24:29would be nodding to you. And I realized
24:31that was not serving me because it
24:33actually made me look too too trusting,
24:37too open. And so what you see in front
24:40of you is me with calmed
24:44calmed gestures and calm nodding. I also
24:46try really hard to not fake a cue
24:49because I think that you can't fake it.
24:50I think that people pick up on it. They
24:52are inauthentic. So if I don't actually
24:54like something, I will not smile. As a
24:57recovering awkward person, I would smile
24:59by default all the time because I wanted
25:01people to like me. So the other way
25:03awkwardness dresses up is that sort of
25:06fake smile. Do you like me? And we read
25:10that as inauthentic. And so I have also
25:13if I I have the tendency even with you
25:15to smile for you like I want to smile
25:18and say this is good. But if I'm like
25:20nope, I only smile if I actually feel
25:22excited about an answer or if I actually
25:24feel excited about something. So
25:25awkwardness kind of dresses up in two in
25:27in two different extremes,
25:30>> right? So that triple nod, that seems to
25:33me something like I get it, then I think
25:36about it, then I agree. Maybe that's the
25:40signaling of the trifecta.
25:42>> Oh, I like it. I never thought about
25:43that before. Maybe it's um I hear you,
25:45right? Like that acknowledgement. Yes.
25:47And Yeah. And then you're internalizing
25:49it. Ah, yes. I agree with that. Yeah.
25:51And then it's like keep going.
25:53>> Ah.
25:54>> Yeah. and you're signaling it.
25:55>> And then, by the way, look at the
25:56difference. So, non-verbal is so
25:58interesting. A slow triple nod,
26:00interest, curiosity, engagement. A fast
26:02triple nod, impatience. So, watch the
26:04difference. So, we go, "Tell me more."
26:05>> Yeah. Right.
26:06>> Versus, "Uhhm." Mhm. Mhm.
26:09>> Yeah. Get on with it. Right. That's an
26:11indication to mimic my speed and to move
26:15more rapidly towards your goal,
26:18>> right? To be the same as this. Yeah.
26:19Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.
26:21>> Mhm. So that that smiling too.
26:26>> Yeah.
26:27>> That is a proclivity of women more.
26:29>> Yes.
26:30>> Cuz if you look at men and women are
26:32approximately equal in extraversion, but
26:35you can break extraversion down into
26:38assertiveness and
26:40um
26:43and enthusiasm.
26:44>> Outgoing. Yeah. Enthusiasm. Yeah.
26:46>> And women score women score higher on
26:48enthusiasm. So they're signaling more
26:51positive emotion as a general rule and
26:54so they'll they'll smile more as well.
26:58So
27:01that
27:03up uptalk
27:06and the hunch
27:08combined with nodding that definitely
27:11signals subordinate status,
27:15right? And I suppose it's those are
27:18appeasement gestures in some way because
27:22if you signal that you're harmless or
27:25you're signaling even though you don't
27:27know it that you're like a child, then
27:30you're going to
27:32present yourself as an inappropriate
27:35target of aggression or perhaps even
27:38competition.
27:39And so maybe you want that in some
27:43circumstances, but if you're attempting
27:45to market yourself as competent, that
27:48seems like a bad approach. I wonder, you
27:50know, there is this
27:53trope which is mostly false that women
27:56are underpaid
27:58compared to men, let's say, in the same
28:01position. Now, most of that's rubbish or
28:06can be accounted for by factors other
28:08than sex, but I've always had the
28:12suspicion that some of that might be
28:14agreeableness, right? Because women are
28:17higher in agreeableness than men. And it
28:21isn't exactly obvious that the proper
28:23way to negotiate a raise, let's say, is
28:25through excess agreeableness. Because
28:27what you're signaling is that you'll
28:30pretty much put up with anything because
28:32you're dependent. All those things we
28:34talked about, the uplift, the the
28:37condensed body, too much nodding, too
28:40much smiling, that all indicates a
28:43state. It's signaling dependency. And
28:47you that's not appropriate if you're
28:50trying to sell something.
28:52And it's not appropriate if you're
28:55trying to bargain for a raise or a
28:59promotion. It signals exactly the
29:02opposite. So, do you know of of any
29:05research linking
29:08these immature styles of
29:11self-presentation
29:12to wage to earnings? I haven't seen
29:16anything directly related to wage, but
29:17we do know that your non-verbal cues in
29:19a salary negotiation directly impact
29:22your bottom line. So when we they look
29:24at non-verbal cues and we can say yes
29:26that if you're using all those
29:27appeasement signals, people are going to
29:30doubt your competence because you have
29:32too much warmth. And we know that even
29:34by watching silent videos of interviews,
29:38people can decide how competent someone
29:39is without hearing them speak, which is
29:42which is horrifying, right? And so, um,
29:44for example, I think MIT did a study on
29:47mirroring in salary negotiation. And
29:49this is an interesting one because both
29:52men and women mirror, uh, and actually
29:54mirroring, you could argue, I'm going to
29:56argue it, is a bit of an appeasement,
29:59right? It's a get along kind of a
30:00non-verbal cue. The more mirroring that
30:03you have in a salary negotiation. So,
30:05the more that the interviewe mirrors
30:07their interviewer, the higher the
30:10outcome of the salary. And so we know
30:13that any kind of non-verbal cues or all
30:16different kinds of nonverbal cues affect
30:18that that number. And so yeah, I think
30:20that we can while I haven't seen direct
30:21research on warmth and competence or men
30:23and women, we know that those non-verbal
30:25cues are affecting your number.
30:27>> Delve into mirroring a little bit. And I
30:30suppose the way I would think about it,
30:32I I'll set the question up is that
30:35when you're communicating with someone,
30:39you want to share the framework that a
30:43goal, a mutual goal provides. So you're
30:46establishing a little space where
30:49communication can take place, but it's
30:51in relationship to some mutually agreed
30:55upon end.
30:57uh otherwise you're imposing on them.
31:00And
31:02mirroring, which I'll have you describe,
31:05indicates that
31:08your physiological tendencies
31:11are allied with them, with theirs. It
31:15means you're going somewhere together
31:17because it's movementoriented.
31:19And so, but describe mirroring and
31:22suggest to people how you think it might
31:25be
31:27attended to and perfected.
31:30>> So, mirroring is the subtle mimicking or
31:32copying mirroring of someone's cues. And
31:36actually, um, I take a bigger approach
31:38to mirroring, which is it's non-verbal,
31:40it's can be verbal, it can also be
31:43vocal. And I like to think about it in
31:45all three ways. For example, if you're
31:47with someone and mirroring showcases
31:49engagement, alignment, and I say it's
31:54nonverbal respect, you don't have to
31:56agree with what someone is saying to
31:59mirror them. You're basically following
32:00their energy. You're saying, "I respect
32:03you so much that I'm going to align my
32:06verbal, vocal, and non-verbal cues to
32:08match you as a sign of respect." It's
32:10the same way where we would we dress up
32:11for a formal interview or we dress more
32:13casual for a casual interview. It's the
32:15same. It's a form of non-verbal respect
32:17saying, "I'm meeting you where you're at
32:19as opposed to you meeting me where I'm
32:21at." So, we have three options with
32:23mirroring, and it's a very powerful It's
32:25a very powerful tool. First, non-verbal.
32:27This is the most obvious one. So, if you
32:30nod, maybe I nod, right? If if you're
32:32leaning forward in your chair, maybe I
32:34lean forward in my chair a little bit
32:35more, too. If um you're making an eye
32:37contact pattern, there's different eye
32:39contact patterns, but if you're making
32:41an eye contact pattern where you
32:43brainstorm up here, you'll often see
32:44people will process complex ideas and
32:47they won't make eye contact because they
32:48actually don't want the oxytocin.
32:50They're trying to have full focus and
32:52then at the very end of their statement
32:54and they deliver to you. That's an an
32:56eye contact pattern. And you can also
32:58use that if if that feels comfortable.
33:00But there's caveats here. One, I never
33:03want you to use a cue that feels fake or
33:04inauthentic. it will come across as fake
33:06and inauthentic. So if you can match
33:08them and that feels good to you, great.
33:10Second, it must be subtle. The worst
33:12thing that we could possibly do is like
33:13Simon says, you know, like you know,
33:15they touch their face, you touch their
33:17your face, you you cross your arms, I
33:19cross my arms, like that that would be
33:20the worst. So this is a a subtle
33:23following of energy. My second favorite
33:26way to mirror and the one that I use the
33:27most often is vocal.
33:30Vocal is an underestimated channel that
33:33we have to communicate and we're already
33:36doing this subconsciously and there's
33:37some beautiful research on this but we
33:40tend to mimic the resonance of the most
33:43powerful person in the room without
33:45realizing it. So already we are attuned
33:49to the vocal power. So for example, you
33:52speak more slowly than I do Jordan. I'm
33:54a fast talker and so for our interview I
33:57want to respect the way that you
33:58communicate and also the way that your
34:00listeners probably prefer to listen
34:02right so I am like like take a breath
34:05right calm down you don't have to be you
34:07know so rapid nervous you can just take
34:10a breath so I'm doing that because a it
34:12feels actually really comfortable for me
34:14feels less nerve-wracking but also I
34:16want to show you that I want to speak at
34:18your same pace we also can do this
34:21verbally this is called I call it being
34:23a verbal chameleon. When I'm trying to
34:25bond or connect with someone and they
34:27use certain kinds of words, if I like
34:30those words, I will use those words as
34:31well. So, for example, when you're
34:33asking me a question and you use the
34:34word alignment and I'm like, that is a
34:37good word. I'm going to try to use that
34:39answer back to you to talk about
34:41alignment. Or when you say, you know, I
34:43when I'm on stage, I'm, you know, trying
34:45to connect with my audience onetoone.
34:47I'm going to try to use those same
34:48words. That's a very advanced way to do
34:51it, but it's I think that's a way of
34:52showing non-verbal respect and building
34:54rapport in a beyond the ideas, right?
34:58Those are just the way that we're
34:59communicating. Then it helps us when we
35:01get to the actual ideas.
35:03>> Let's talk a little bit about some of
35:05the other phenomena that you mentioned
35:09fronting. Now, human beings are strange
35:12creatures because we walk upright. And
35:15so that means that unlike four-legged
35:18animals, we aren't protected by a a suit
35:22of armor precisely, right? So the most
35:26vulnerable parts of us are full frontal.
35:30And so
35:32that accounts at least to some degree
35:35for why the concept of fronting is
35:38important. So do you want to delve into
35:40that to some degree? Yeah, you explained
35:43it perfectly. There's there's two
35:45reasons why we like to front and why I
35:46think this is one of the easiest cues we
35:48can do. We can do it on video. So, how
35:50we position our camera is actually very
35:52important for how we're getting along
35:53with people. So, making sure that your
35:55work camera or your Zoom camera or your
35:57phone camera if you're propping it up is
35:59exactly in line with the other person. I
36:01see very people with their setup where
36:03they're off to the side. Um, so video in
36:05person and even in chairs like if I'm in
36:07a conference room and I'm around a
36:08boardroom table, I love rotating chairs
36:11or rolling chairs because I will rotate
36:13my body to whoever is speaking as a way
36:15of showing honorable respect. What does
36:17this fronting do? One, it shows as you
36:19said, I feel comfortable enough with you
36:21that I don't feel I have to block my
36:23vital organs. But more importantly, I
36:26think there's a synchronization that
36:28happens when our toes, torso, and head
36:32are on the same level, that we are
36:34parallel. Literally, our bodies are
36:36parallel. It is easier to open up to
36:39someone when we are physically on the
36:41same line. There's one exception to this
36:44that I think is important to note.
36:47Driving in a car, you'll notice people
36:48will often open up next to each other.
36:51sitting at a bar. You'll often notice
36:53that especially men, they'll they'll
36:55open up sitting next to each other at a
36:56bar or walking together. Deep long walks
36:58on the beach, people will open each
37:00other. Why? Sometimes when we're feeling
37:03like we want to talk about something
37:05deep or vulnerable,
37:08fronting is too much. It's like, whoa,
37:11you know, you're looking at all of me.
37:13And so sometimes, like I have two young
37:16daughters. Sometimes it's funny, you
37:18know, she'll tell me a lot from the
37:20backseat of the car when we are the
37:21opposite of fronting because I think
37:24like she can say something without some
37:26without me fully, you know, looking at
37:28every single cue. So again, there's
37:31always too much of a good thing.
37:32Sometimes with fronting it can be too
37:34much. And so if you want someone to open
37:36up to you, start with that. But if
37:38they're feeling uncomfortable or they're
37:39awkward or they're introverted, you
37:41could try actually the opposite of
37:43fronting and being side by side or in a
37:46car cuz that might give them permission
37:48to feel they can open up without being
37:49judged.
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39:08So
39:10if you're
39:12facing each other front to front,
39:15that maximizes the possibility of
39:18self-consciousness,
39:20right? Because I know that you're
39:22looking at me completely and you can
39:24evaluate me. And so you the
39:27circumstances where with your daughter
39:29she's in the back seat. She
39:33I guess you're doing her a favor in that
39:35situation by
39:38removing the pressure of your gaze.
39:41That's what Freud did, you know, in his
39:44famous
39:46therapy sessions. So he sat to the side.
39:50His patients would often lay down in
39:54Freud's famous couch and he sat to the
39:56side. And the reason he did that was
39:58because he wanted them to be able to
40:00speak freely
40:03without
40:04mirroring anything that he was
40:07broadcasting.
40:09So maybe it's the situation that
40:12if the purpose of the conversation is
40:14for the other person to reveal
40:16themselves, the rules are different than
40:20they are when the purpose is mutual and
40:23reciprocal exchange of information.
40:26So I wonder if that's true.
40:28>> I I mean look
40:29>> account for what you just described
40:31>> it. I I don't want to make a hard and
40:33fast rule because yes, of course, I want
40:36someone to feel comfortable, you know,
40:38sharing something vulnerable, but I also
40:41want someone to share with me where I
40:42can read their micro expressions, you
40:44know, where I can um take take a pulse
40:48of how they're doing non-verbbally. So,
40:50there's no hard and fast rule here. It
40:52depends on what your goals are. Freud's
40:53goal was to let people free associate,
40:56to let them open up without judgment,
40:58and to not bond with him.
41:01He he didn't need the oxyiosin for
41:03himself. He needed them to be focused
41:05and just free associating. That's a very
41:08different goal. Versus with my daughter,
41:10sometimes I do just want her to free
41:12associate and just tell it all to me.
41:14But there are times where I'm wanting to
41:16talk to her and I want to see is her
41:18face sad. You know, is she blocking? Is
41:21she distancing from me? Is she all of a
41:22sudden leaning back? That's going to
41:24give me more nuance. So, I don't think
41:26we can have a hard and fast rule. But
41:28what we can know is that our cues are
41:30changing how people treat us. Our cues
41:33are changing how people act. The
41:35positioning of our face, our body, the
41:37sound of our voice, it's going to
41:39trigger different effects in different
41:41people. And we have to be aware of how
41:42powerful those are. And I think if
41:44you're aware of that, you can choose
41:46your cues based on your context and your
41:48goals.
41:49So if you're in a job interview
41:53and you're using
41:56the immature strategies that we
41:57described like a prey posture, uptalk,
42:02too much smiling.
42:04What I think what you're doing is you're
42:06there as a supplicant and you're asking
42:09the dominant primate to bequest
42:13something to you. It's a favor. So
42:17you're using signals of immaturity to
42:21curry favor with someone who's dominant.
42:24Now the disadvantage to that is that
42:27that puts you in a subordinate position
42:29and that's a ma that can be a major
42:31disadvantage. That's a lot different
42:35attitude than a job interview where your
42:39goal is to portray
42:41your competence.
42:43Now, we could talk we could talk think a
42:45little bit about the different
42:47approaches there because if you're the
42:50supplicant asking for a favor,
42:54you're not bringing anything to the
42:56table except the potentially implicit
43:00promise that you would return the favor,
43:04right? And so the the job that you're
43:07being offered or the raise or the
43:09promotion,
43:11that's now a favor. Whereas if you
43:14configure your attitude to indicate
43:17competence,
43:19what you're doing is signaling to the
43:20person that you're talking to that you
43:22have something of value to bring to the
43:24table and that it would actually be in
43:26their interest to
43:30offer you what it is that you want. And
43:33it seems to me that that's a much more
43:35appropriate and and successful
43:39negotiating stance unless the person
43:41that you're negotiating with is also
43:44hyper agreeable and will give it to you
43:46just to be liked. That's quite unlikely,
43:50I would say, when you're dealing with
43:51people who are extremely successful
43:54because
43:56they either don't need to be liked
43:58because they have enough people who like
43:59them or they're not temperamentally
44:01inclined inclined to go in that
44:02direction. So, what do you think the
44:06best signals are when you're negotiating
44:09on your own behalf? And what mistakes do
44:13you see in addition perhaps to the ones
44:15that we've been describing?
44:17>> Yeah. Well, the what when you're going
44:19to interview and you said it I think
44:20exactly right is competence is going to
44:23be incredibly important for worth and
44:25your value right showing I have the
44:27skills to bring to this job and we pay
44:29for skills but there is a time issue
44:33here and the research shows that when we
44:36first meet someone we're trying to
44:39quickly answer two questions can I trust
44:41you and can I rely on you and they're
44:44chronological trust goes first reliance
44:47ience goes second. So in an interview
44:49situation or a date or a meeting, you
44:52actually want to show trust first. High
44:55warmth signals in the first minute, 30
44:58seconds. So high warmth signals that are
45:00good is if you're actually happy to be
45:02there, say you're happy to be there. I
45:03think you mentioned before you get on
45:05stage, you remind yourself that you're
45:07happy to be there, that they're on your
45:08side. Incredibly important because
45:11exactly, you want to be able to say,
45:13"I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so
45:14much for having me." Great. That's a
45:16genuine warmth. Second, visible hands.
45:19And I think this goes back to, you know,
45:21our caveman days, right? When we were
45:23approached by a stranger caveman, we
45:24wanted to see their intention. Were they
45:26carrying a rock or a spear? So, I
45:27recommend everyone have open palms uh on
45:31upon first greeting. So, you walk into
45:33the room or you hop on video, nice to
45:35see you, good morning, oh, so good to
45:38see you. And then you reach out for the
45:39handshake if you're in person. P open
45:41palm literally shows it signals to the
45:43other person's brain, I am not hiding
45:44anything. There's a reason why we say
45:45get your hands up. Palms show intention.
45:48So first few seconds you're greeting
45:50with an open palm and ideally a
45:51handshake if you're in person. That
45:53physical touch is a way we produce
45:54oxytocin. Second, if you feel happy,
45:57smiling, right? That's a a nice warmth
45:58cue if you feel happy. Third, you're
46:01engaging in eye contact to produce that
46:02oxytocin. Okay, warmth. Got it. Right?
46:05Like that's going to set the stage for
46:07you can trust me. I'm not hiding
46:08anything just from an innate
46:10perspective. Then you want to go into
46:12reliance. And there's this weird, I'll
46:16even say potentially awkward few minutes
46:18in every interaction, especially
46:20interview where you're transitioning
46:22from warmth to competence. And that is
46:25called small talk. This is why there are
46:28books written about small talk is
46:30because it is very hard to go from, oh,
46:33it's so good to see you. Thanks so much
46:34for having me. Tell me your greatest
46:36strengths.
46:38Like that gap is quite hard. So to be
46:41highly charismatic, I think that you
46:44should be assertive with that
46:45transition. That's what I teach. Okay?
46:49To be assertive, we're going to break a
46:51social script. This is one way that we
46:52signal both warmth and competence. Do
46:55not say, "How are you?"
46:59Do not say, "How's it been going?" I can
47:01tell you, you will socially script them.
47:04You engage the brain in this is an
47:06autopilot interaction. So if you ask
47:08your interviewer, "So how are you?" and
47:10they say, "Oh, this is what I'll say.
47:12Good, busy, but good."
47:14>> Yeah.
47:15>> You've just shown them that this is
47:17going to be like every other interview.
47:19And part of this is like breaking those
47:20scripts. So, do not ask that. You're
47:22going to ask for a positive primer.
47:24You're going to try to cue with
47:26something positive. Borrow excitement
47:28from other areas of their life. So, you
47:29can ask
47:31what's good today. What's good today is
47:34a a very subtle shift. It makes the
47:36other person go, "Oh, what's good
47:38today?" You have just changed their
47:40thinking pattern from wherever they were
47:42before, their inbox, their tasks to
47:45good, good, good, good, good, good,
47:46good, good. That is going to make them
47:49more optimistic. It also allows you to
47:51talk about good things, which is much
47:52better for warmth, right? So, you're
47:55going to ask what's good. You could also
47:56ask, you know, have any fun plans for
47:58the weekend? Do anything fun this past
48:00weekend? Right? I have a um a little
48:02joke that I like to share that is useful
48:04where on Mondays and Tuesdays you can
48:06ask everyone you meet, did you do
48:08anything fun and exciting this past
48:10weekend? On Thursdays and Fridays you
48:12can ask, have any fun and exciting plans
48:14this upcoming weekend? On Wednesdays you
48:16just don't talk to anyone works great.
48:20So or you could ask have any fun
48:22exciting plans this week. So you're
48:23breaking the script which creates a
48:25little bit of warmth. Then you can
48:27transition into competence with your
48:29answer cuz what they're probably going
48:30to say is how about you or tell me about
48:34your week. You should be ready to go
48:36with a story that shows a little bit
48:39about your behavior that transitions
48:41into your prep for the interview, right?
48:43Like prep is a competence cue. And then
48:46we can go into non-verbal competence.
48:47Non-verbal competence is purposeful
48:50gestures. So no uh accidentally touching
48:53the face. We really don't like that.
48:55There's Cornell research that looked at
48:58behaviors that trigger feelings of
49:00mistrust. What's hard about this
49:02research is we have to be very careful.
49:04These aren't actual cues of deception.
49:07These are cues that people perceive are
49:10deception. So if you accidentally do
49:13them, you are triggering feelings of
49:15mistrust. They are touching the face,
49:18touching the body, blocking the body, or
49:22distancing, leaning away or leaning
49:24back. Those behaviors, they tend to feel
49:27like disengagement. People don't like
49:28them. So, you want to make sure that you
49:30doing the opposite of those things.
49:32You're still, unless you're using
49:33explanatory gestures, you're not doing
49:35any kind of self-touch. Self-ouch is
49:37either a flirtatious, courtship behavior
49:39or it's an anxious, self soothing
49:41behavior, pacifying behavior. You want
49:43to make sure that you are on your plane
49:46on your level plane or you're leaning in
49:47when you feel something important.
49:49You're not leaning back or distancing or
49:50taking a step back. So in that way, we
49:52can then begin to build our competence
49:55cues and then we answer really competent
49:57on top of that.
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51:13>> There's a lot there. One of the things
51:14that I was considering while you were
51:18laying out those observations was that
51:22your non-verbal behavior is probably
51:25dramatizing
51:27and then signaling
51:29your interpretation of the place as a
51:32drama.
51:34So, let's say one of the things you
51:36might ask yourself, for example,
51:40when you go to speak to your boss for a
51:44raise, it might well be worth asking,
51:49who is this boss to you? What's your
51:53narrative about them? What's their
51:55characterization?
51:57And who are you in relationship
52:01to that figure?
52:04Cuz otherwise that's going to take place
52:05unconsciously.
52:07And so if your boss is intimidating and
52:12terrifying and you adopt the role of
52:16supplicant because that's your
52:19conceptualization,
52:20then you're going to dramatize that with
52:23your non-verbal behavior and indicate
52:25it. So you want to get your attitude
52:28right
52:30so that you're playing the right game.
52:32And so
52:34what's the right attitude to have
52:36towards your boss? Well, if the
52:42situation is kosher if it's set up
52:44properly,
52:46then you're each playing a mutually
52:48beneficial role in relationship to some
52:50shared end.
52:52So even though that person might be
52:55superordinate to you in that
52:58hierarchical position, that doesn't mean
53:00that you have no value or that you have
53:03nothing to offer.
53:05And so
53:06what behaviors are indicative? This
53:09would touch on the issue of competence.
53:12What are the behaviors that would be
53:13indicative of the fact that you have
53:17something to offer? So you're
53:19approaching a position of equality when
53:21you when you adopt that stance. I mean
53:24when I was coaching people
53:27to accelerate the growth of their
53:29career,
53:31I encouraged them to
53:35make the requests that were in line with
53:38that goal to actually let the boss know
53:42that
53:44they were interested in adopting more
53:46responsibility. It's a very different
53:48idea than I'm interested in having more
53:50money. That's not relevant. Everyone's
53:53interested in having more money. So if
53:56the role of your boss in your
54:00raise drama is bestower of money, you're
54:05not going to get anywhere because the
54:09proper attitude of any boss is well
54:11everybody always wants more money. So
54:14that doesn't make you unique and it
54:16certainly doesn't indicate that you're
54:17bringing anything to the table. A much
54:20more appropriate strategy is to
54:24put yourself in a position genuinely
54:26that
54:27where your services are both vital and
54:31productive. And then to indicate that,
54:35you know, and maybe this gets to the
54:37core question that we open the
54:39conversation with is
54:41how do you know when you're
54:44non-verbal signaling, which would be the
54:46drama that you inhabit, is
54:48counterproductive?
54:49And the answer to that would be you do a
54:53lot of the work, but you get none of the
54:54credit. And that that's genuine. And
54:57then someone else, you're leaving a
54:58space for someone who's more
54:59psychopathic, so they can play dominance
55:02games and their non-verbal behavior
55:05codes for confidence. They can steal all
55:07the credit from you because you're not
55:09doing a good job of communicating your
55:12value. So then when you go to ask for
55:15the raise, what you should have in mind
55:17is what the hell you're good for and why
55:21it would be beneficial to the person
55:23that you're speaking with to provide you
55:26with additional resources and so what
55:29behaviors would go along with an
55:31attitude like that say rather than
55:35supplicant or or questioner.
55:37>> Yes. So when you are seeing your boss, I
55:41think you want to have two narratives
55:44going in. Either problem solver, which
55:48is I think a a a coming a part of
55:52competence where you're going in saying
55:54my value here is solving whatever your
55:57problem is. Whether that's a personnel
55:59issue or a company issue or a value
56:01issue, your narrative, that career
56:03narrative you're going to go into is not
56:05I want more money because that doesn't
56:06that's not that's not going to appeal to
56:07them. It's I am so competent that I can
56:11solve this company's problems, your
56:13problems, the team's problems. I'm a
56:15problem solver. That's what I competent
56:17is such a big word. No, it's problem
56:18solving. That's we can rely on people
56:20who solve our problems. So your verbal
56:23answers, your evidence is all going to
56:25be around solving their problems. That's
56:27the the the brainchild of competence. Or
56:31if you're like ah my my value is not
56:34there. The brainchild of warmth is being
56:37an ally. And there are bosses who need
56:40this and will give raises for this. This
56:43is I am empathetic. I am compassionate.
56:46I have high emotional intelligence. I
56:48have high interpersonal intelligence. My
56:50value on this team and to you is that
56:53I'm a wonderful listener. I have my
56:55pulse of the behavior that's going on in
56:57this office. I'm a champion of you and
56:59your ideas. I can read you well. In a
57:03way, it's sort of soft skills and hard
57:05skills. And I wish that we talked about
57:06this more. And I think this is the only
57:08choice we have in the age of AI. This is
57:11career insurance. You either have to
57:13know I excel in soft skills, the warmth
57:17side of things where I can support
57:19people on the communication side or I
57:22thrive in hard skills, specifically
57:25problem solving. Less so unfortunately
57:28the hard skills of programming or you
57:30know software development.
57:31Unfortunately, I think that those are
57:33going to start to be replaced. But we
57:34can have hard skills of I'm a problem
57:36solver in this office and I'm going to
57:37take problems off your plate. That's how
57:39people get raises
57:41>> rather than cause them, let's say.
57:43>> Yes. And the behavior cues along with
57:45that, there's so many ways that we could
57:46take it. First of all, of course,
57:48verbally using those words. I mean,
57:49literally saying, I'm going to provide
57:51this value to you with the with the
57:52reasoning. But
57:53>> yeah, yeah,
57:54>> how to sound smart is something I think
57:57about a lot because so many of my
57:58students are so smart, but they don't
58:00sound it. And I'm like, what is the
58:03disconnect here? What is happening? We
58:06talked about uptalk which is an
58:07important one but verbal acuity
58:10verbally being able to organize your
58:12thoughts is a skill that can be learned
58:14and if you have mental acuity you can
58:17learn to verbalize it. This means the
58:19myth is speak in longer more complex
58:22sentences with bigger words. We actually
58:25don't think of that as smart. In fact we
58:27like people who speak in short
58:28declarative sentences with concise ideas
58:32and have shorter more specific words. So
58:34what smart people often do, the mistake
58:36they make, one of the biggest mistakes
58:37is they try to speak in more complex
58:39ways. That actually is the worst thing
58:42for your competence because it makes it
58:43sound like you actually don't know what
58:45you're talking about. So practicing how
58:47can I verbally organize this? I want to
58:49raise for these three ideas and
58:51literally holding up the number three
58:52first, second, third. That is all
58:56competence cues because you're saying I
58:58know my content so well. I can speak to
59:01you on two tracks. I can speak to you
59:02with my words, but I can also speak to
59:04you with my gestures. And boy oh boy, do
59:06we like to rely on people who can speak
59:08to us on two different tracks and it
59:10organizes for us. So your boss, who's
59:13probably doing a bunch of these meetings
59:14all day, their brain is half in their
59:16inbox. The more you can have clarity of
59:19the way that you speak with your
59:20gestures, with your non-verbal, with
59:22your precision of movement, and I do
59:24mean precision of movement, the more
59:27smart you are going to sound and look.
59:30You talked about the fact that touching
59:33the face for example is a sign of
59:36disconnect and I think it's a sign of
59:39disconnect because if I'm attending to
59:42me
59:44in the course of a conversation then I'm
59:48clearly not attending to you. it it's an
59:51indication of self-consciousness which
59:53is associated with with doubt and fear
59:56and withdrawal and you want to be
1:00:00talking to someone who's engaged in the
1:00:03conversation and not self-conscious.
1:00:08Now, if you're going in to ask for a
1:00:09raise, you could easily become
1:00:12self-conscious,
1:00:13but that would be an indication, I
1:00:15think, that
1:00:17the story that you're acting out is all
1:00:19about you
1:00:21right now. So, the big five theorists
1:00:23showed that
1:00:26self-consciousness and neuroticism were
1:00:28indistinguishable from one another. So
1:00:32the rule of thumb, and this is a
1:00:34terrible rule of thumb, is that if
1:00:37you're thinking about yourself, you're
1:00:40miserable.
1:00:42And and that that probably applies in
1:00:44some ways across the board.
1:00:49What you want to be thinking with
1:00:50thinking about is
1:00:54what you're going to do for the other
1:00:56person.
1:00:58And it has to be real. So, if you're
1:01:01going to your boss because you want a
1:01:02raise,
1:01:04you want to know and then thoroughly
1:01:08justify the fact that
1:01:10it's in his or her best interest to give
1:01:13you a raise. And you need to provide
1:01:16them with the data that indicate that
1:01:19that's
1:01:21self-evident.
1:01:23Now, you talked about problem solving.
1:01:28What do you suppose the association is
1:01:30between
1:01:31precision of words and precision of
1:01:33gesture in relationship to competence?
1:01:35Does it show that you're integrated?
1:01:37>> Yeah, it shows that
1:01:38>> that you're focused. What What do you
1:01:40think it's indicating?
1:01:41>> Well, if you think of someone who is
1:01:42highly competent, they know their stuff.
1:01:44They don't need notes. In other words,
1:01:46they're so clear on what their idea is
1:01:48and what either the problem is or the
1:01:50solution is that they don't have to
1:01:51waste words. They don't have to waste
1:01:52movement. And so the clarity is the
1:01:55indication of the competence. That is
1:01:58why when people are long-winded or they
1:02:00are obfuscating the idea, you're like, I
1:02:03don't know if they really know what
1:02:04they're talking about. And so clarity, I
1:02:06think, is a symptom of competence. And
1:02:08that's why you said I if you don't have
1:02:10if you need notes on stage, you don't
1:02:12know your stuff well enough. It's the
1:02:14same thing I think when we're talking to
1:02:15a boss. Someone who has a clear idea of
1:02:17the problem and a clear idea of the
1:02:19solution. And by the way, this is the
1:02:20most overlooked one.
1:02:23knows what they don't know. You can also
1:02:25have clarity around what you don't know,
1:02:27right? We're like, huh, I can rely on
1:02:29you. So, you don't have to know
1:02:31everything, but you have to know what
1:02:33you know. So that when you have
1:02:35precision of word, you're able to
1:02:36explain the problem, the solution, and
1:02:37then you can say, you know, the the
1:02:39biggest question is going to be blank.
1:02:41Here's how I want to solve that. What I
1:02:43don't know is this, and here's how I'm
1:02:45going to find out. That way, you're
1:02:47showing I know every aspect of this this
1:02:50problem, even what I don't know.
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1:04:04Right. Right. Well, if you're confident
1:04:07in what you don't know, what you're
1:04:09doing is indicating to the person that
1:04:13you're communicating with that you know
1:04:15the difference between your ability and
1:04:18your lack of ability, so you won't
1:04:20overstep. But it also indicates that
1:04:22you're confident enough in what you know
1:04:26so that you don't have to exaggerate it.
1:04:28And that indicates that you genuinely
1:04:31value what it is that you don't know.
1:04:33and you're not set back on your heels by
1:04:36the fact that there's many things that
1:04:37you have to learn or still can't do.
1:04:41>> I also think, you know, I love narrative
1:04:43identity and we're just kind of close to
1:04:45that topic. So, if I can bring it up
1:04:47here, we also love people who have a
1:04:50clear idea of their own story.
1:04:53And so I I think that going into your
1:04:56boss, going into a meeting and knowing
1:05:00how your your identity fits into this
1:05:03role and how you think it's perfect for
1:05:04it is really important. That shows a
1:05:07kind of confidence that we really want
1:05:08in people. I also think from a mindset
1:05:11perspective, it's important to go into
1:05:14your interview, to walk on stage, to
1:05:16walk into a date thinking you are lucky.
1:05:19I believe in the power of luck. And if
1:05:22there's a mindset routine I could I
1:05:25could suggest gently to folks, you know,
1:05:28I love a power pose. Sure. You know, I
1:05:31love, you know, jumping up on a
1:05:32trampoline. That's all great. But
1:05:34actually, I think the most powerful
1:05:36mental warm-up you can do is reminding
1:05:38yourself of how lucky you are. The luck
1:05:41factor is has a major impact on how we
1:05:44come across. If you feel lucky as a
1:05:46person, it makes you feel more
1:05:48confident. It fits into your narrative.
1:05:50and we like people who are lucky. And so
1:05:52I think that having that idea that
1:05:54you're the perfect person for this
1:05:56position, you're in the perfect spot to
1:05:59get this raise. You're in the perfect
1:06:01role to be there for your boss. That
1:06:04perception is also I'm a high neurotic.
1:06:07And so I have a I have trouble
1:06:09convincing myself to be optimistic. It
1:06:11just doesn't really work for me. But I
1:06:13can I can very firmly believe I'm lucky.
1:06:16And so I think that luck is sort of a
1:06:17side door into that into that optimism
1:06:20that we really need in the confidence in
1:06:22these interviews.
1:06:24>> Do you think that that's luck or is it
1:06:28better characterized potentially as
1:06:31gratitude?
1:06:32>> I think
1:06:33>> right now gratitude is the opposite of
1:06:35envy. Well,
1:06:38gratitude means that you've searched the
1:06:41narrative territory
1:06:44with regards to the characterization of
1:06:46this event and that you've found a place
1:06:50to stand where you're fortunate and
1:06:53pleased about it. Because you could be
1:06:55terrified when you go in to ask for a
1:06:58raise or you could think,
1:07:01I'm fortunate to have a job.
1:07:04I'm fortunate enough to be able to I'm
1:07:06fortunate to be able to communicate with
1:07:07my boss and I'm fortunate to be in a
1:07:10position where I could ask for a raise
1:07:14or a promotion where so there's some
1:07:16possibility for advancement where I sit
1:07:19and then you're going to broadcast that.
1:07:22>> Well, this is a very personal thing. So,
1:07:24if you don't relate to it, that's fine.
1:07:26But I think that gratitude in a weird
1:07:30way reminds me of a scarcity.
1:07:33So if I think I'm I'm lucky to have this
1:07:36job. I'm lucky to have what I get. It
1:07:39almost makes me feel like I need to
1:07:40settle for what I have versus luck. I
1:07:44feel a lot more opportunity. There's
1:07:46opportunity. There's abundance. If I say
1:07:49I am a lucky person,
1:07:52there is a an outward focus of maybe
1:07:55there's more luck to be had versus if I
1:07:58do a gratitude exercise, it's almost
1:08:00settling. It's almost like, hey, you're
1:08:03you're lucky to have what you have. I
1:08:05don't know if you should ask for
1:08:06anything more. You know, be grateful for
1:08:08the role that you have. And so,
1:08:11emotionally, there's a very subtle
1:08:12difference in the gratitude exercise
1:08:15versus luck. I love being grateful, but
1:08:17there are times where I think gratitude
1:08:19can almost
1:08:21stifle
1:08:23opportunity.
1:08:24>> Mhm. Well, so maybe what you're pointing
1:08:26to is the idea that you should be
1:08:28grateful for the opportunity.
1:08:30>> There you go.
1:08:32>> Right. Right. Because that would that
1:08:33would take away that danger of presuming
1:08:36that you should be satisfied with what
1:08:38you have only. Right. I'm satisfied with
1:08:41what I have, but I want more. What? I
1:08:44want more opportunity. I want more
1:08:46adventure. I want more responsibility.
1:08:48>> I can do more.
1:08:49>> Right. I want
1:08:50>> Yeah. Exactly.
1:08:51>> I can do.
1:08:52>> Yes. And I think that that's the
1:08:53attitude to walk into. I can do more.
1:08:56>> Right. I can do more. And that would be
1:08:58good for you too to put me in a position
1:09:00where that was the case. Not least
1:09:02because I would take a variety of
1:09:05potential problems off your plate and
1:09:08because certainly bosses are looking for
1:09:10that all the time and enable you to do
1:09:14what you're best at more effectively.
1:09:19Right? Let's talk about first greetings,
1:09:22first impressions. So I meet many people
1:09:26after my lectures. I have a meet and
1:09:30greet. So, I've probably shaken hands
1:09:33with
1:09:3620,000 people in the last
1:09:41four or five years, maybe more than
1:09:42that.
1:09:44Could be 50,000. I'd have to do the
1:09:46mathematics. But,
1:09:49and I also learned to pay attention to
1:09:51this as a therapist because you want to
1:09:54put people at ease
1:09:57relatively quickly. The first
1:10:00impressions matter because they set the
1:10:02stage, right? So when someone new walks
1:10:05into your office, if you're a therapist,
1:10:08you don't want to be thinking, "Oh my
1:10:09god, here comes another paniply of
1:10:12problems." You want to be thinking,
1:10:15"This is going to be interesting and
1:10:18hopefully I can be helpful to this
1:10:20person and I would like them to I'd like
1:10:22to do that as quickly and efficiently as
1:10:24possible." And it'd be good to get the
1:10:26ball rolling. That's a good initial
1:10:30prayer, you might say, to to sort
1:10:32yourself out. Now, when I watch someone
1:10:37approach me to shake my hand,
1:10:41it's like the introduction to a dance.
1:10:44And so, you have to specify the space.
1:10:46So, I guess you use your eyes and your
1:10:48body.
1:10:50You turn your body towards the person.
1:10:52You make eye contact with them
1:10:55and that defines a shared space right
1:10:59away. And then I match my tempo to their
1:11:03tempo.
1:11:05So people will have a characteristic
1:11:07pace at which they approach. And that's
1:11:10like the rhythm of their apprehension.
1:11:14And
1:11:15if you put your hand out at the same
1:11:18rate they put their hand out
1:11:21when you shake hands, then you've
1:11:24indicated that you attended to them
1:11:26enough to adopt their tempo immediately.
1:11:30And then
1:11:33you shake hands with a firm grip, but
1:11:36you modulate that like you should have a
1:11:39default firmness of grip which should be
1:11:43grip it be tight enough to pick up a
1:11:45relatively let's say I don't know a 10
1:11:48pound object something like that and but
1:11:51you should modulate that in accordance
1:11:54with the grip strength of the person
1:11:56that you're communicating with Right?
1:12:00And then I ask people their name because
1:12:04even the most nervous person can usually
1:12:06remember their name. And then
1:12:10I tell them that I'm happy that the that
1:12:13they're there and pleased about that and
1:12:15I mean it. And then that usually
1:12:20establishes a little bit of
1:12:23instantaneous intimacy and both players
1:12:26can walk away
1:12:28satisfied with the interaction even
1:12:30though it's brief. So
1:12:34tell me about introducing yourself and
1:12:38what's most effective in that regard. I
1:12:40also wanted to share a little tip that I
1:12:42learned from Jerry Seinfeld, the
1:12:44comedian, who said he meets thousands
1:12:46and thousands of people. And because
1:12:48he's quite famous, he tends to
1:12:50intimidate people, which I don't know if
1:12:52you have that with folks. He has a trick
1:12:54he uses where he finds if he asks them
1:12:56too big of a question, they get they get
1:12:59too nervous. Name is good. He always
1:13:01then asks a numbersbased question cuz it
1:13:05kind of accesses a part of the brain
1:13:07that is very logical. So he'll say, "How
1:13:09long have you been married?" "How long
1:13:11have you lived in Toronto?" "How long
1:13:13have you been here?" "How far away do
1:13:15you live from the venue?" He asks a
1:13:17numbers based question, which is like a
1:13:18way for them to sort of find themselves
1:13:20to then be able to tell a story about
1:13:22their marriage or about how they long
1:13:23how long they live there or how long it
1:13:24took to get there. So that's a little
1:13:26tip for anyone who's search talking to a
1:13:29nervous person. Sometimes numbers can be
1:13:31good. You know, it's funny. You walked
1:13:33me through your your introduction
1:13:35process and there's one piece that you
1:13:37missed for awkward people. So for
1:13:40awkward people like me, there's a
1:13:42terrible moment that happens between eye
1:13:46contact and greeting which is are we
1:13:51going to handshake, hug, cheek kiss, or
1:13:53fist bump or wave? And for an awkward
1:13:56person, I agonize in those first few
1:13:59seconds. And if you do it wrong, you're
1:14:01going to end up in an awkward side hug.
1:14:03And so what I say to people is I
1:14:06actually don't want you to match them in
1:14:09terms of the greeting. I think it's
1:14:11better to be the assertive one and show
1:14:13them the kind of greeting you want.
1:14:16So if you want a handshake, clarity of
1:14:19signal. We know that human to human, if
1:14:22I'm going to stick my hand out towards
1:14:23you and slightly blade my body, I want a
1:14:25handshake and I'm coming in for a
1:14:26handshake. If someone doesn't want a
1:14:28handshake, they'll go like this. They'll
1:14:30wave at you and then you can change to,
1:14:33"Oh, yep. Good to see you." So, if I
1:14:35want a handshake, I'm coming at you the
1:14:37moment I enter the room. I am morning
1:14:41Jordan. It's so good to see you. I'm so
1:14:42happy to see you. Even if that means I
1:14:44am holding it up. So, clearly signal
1:14:46this is a handshake. If you want a hug,
1:14:48and this is for huggers, please, please
1:14:51keep this in mind. Not everyone is a
1:14:53hugger. And you don't want to be stuck
1:14:55in the position of someone going h and
1:14:58and freezing up of of creating that kind
1:15:00of prey behavior. So what I recommend if
1:15:02you want to hug do the open palm. We
1:15:05recognize universally if someone's
1:15:06coming at us with two open palms they
1:15:08are coming in for a more intimate
1:15:10embrace. If you see fear in their eyes
1:15:13so the whites of their eyes upper whites
1:15:15of their eyes show or they take a step
1:15:18back or taking a deep breath. I want you
1:15:19to pivot to so good to see you. So,
1:15:22you're going to start off by showing
1:15:23that hug cue. You're coming in for the
1:15:25hug. If they immediately reciprocate it,
1:15:28great. You're good for a hug. If they
1:15:30either freeze, hide their hands, slow
1:15:33down, or show the fear response, you
1:15:35should then change to a handshake.
1:15:38That little those two seconds, you have
1:15:40given them a gift of being clear with
1:15:43the kind of greeting you want, and
1:15:44you're going to get more oxytocin from
1:15:46it. If unwanted touch happens or awkward
1:15:50touch happens, it's worse than having no
1:15:53touch at all because you're actually
1:15:54going to create cortisol. We're going to
1:15:55make someone stressed or adrenaline even
1:15:57worse. So, getting ready for that first
1:15:59touch is a really critical piece. And
1:16:01then a couple notes on the handshake
1:16:03because I I think we I I learned growing
1:16:07up how to handshake. Like my dad sat me
1:16:08down and said, "Here's how you
1:16:09handshake." But I'm noticing a lot of my
1:16:11my younger students, they haven't had
1:16:13the handshake lesson and they're
1:16:14handshaking less. So, if I could share,
1:16:16there's there's a mechanics to a
1:16:18handshake, which is uh you always want
1:16:20to offer vertically. So, up and down,
1:16:22thumb pointed towards the sky. You never
1:16:24want to offer your hand up. It's a
1:16:26submissive gesture. You never want to
1:16:28offer your hand uh palm pointed down.
1:16:30It's a dominance gesture. So, you're
1:16:32going to offer it vertical. You're going
1:16:33to grip them. I always say, I liked
1:16:35yours your analogy of picking up a 10-
1:16:37pound object. I say squeeze them like
1:16:38you're squeezing a peach. So, squeeze
1:16:41until you feel a little firmness. Right?
1:16:43You're going to try to squeeze a little
1:16:45firmness. Then, interestingly, usually
1:16:47if you're meeting someone for the first
1:16:49time, it's three pumps. One, two, three.
1:16:51Nice to meet you. If you already know
1:16:54someone, often it's one, so good to see
1:16:56you.
1:16:58So, if you're thinking about the kind of
1:16:59mechanics of that, one to three is the
1:17:02appropriate amount. Um, save the double
1:17:05clasp for extra warm. So, a lot of
1:17:07politicians will do that the double
1:17:09clasp over. That's cuz it's sort of
1:17:11double the oxytocin. It's on the way to
1:17:12a hug. I say only do that if you're
1:17:14super confident in in doing it well.
1:17:17Otherwise, it's that onetoone up and
1:17:18down vertical.
1:17:20>> Right. What are you doing with your
1:17:22eyes?
1:17:23>> I like to make mutual eye contact during
1:17:25the handshake, but I don't want to make
1:17:27100% eye contact in the first few
1:17:29minutes of interaction. That's a myth. I
1:17:31think people are told make more eye
1:17:33contact. And eye contact is good, but 60
1:17:36to 70% is ideal. 100% 90% eye contact is
1:17:41considered invasive or territorial. It's
1:17:43actually like a pre-fighting kind of a a
1:17:46a cue. So I it's so make eye contact in
1:17:49those first few seconds and then you
1:17:50know you can look around the room.
1:17:52Welcome. So happy to have you here. When
1:17:53you're processing you should and feel
1:17:56free to look away as you're cognitively
1:17:58processing something. So 60 to 70% eye
1:18:01contact is great. You don't need to go
1:18:03more than that.
1:18:04>> Nonverbal bridges. Let's talk about I
1:18:07like your analysis of the the meaning of
1:18:11different distances and also let's talk
1:18:15a little bit about non-verbal bridges.
1:18:18>> Yes. So when we look at human
1:18:21interaction the space between us how we
1:18:23interact in our environment the fancy
1:18:24word is proxmics and it's actually quite
1:18:26important for signaling intimacy. The
1:18:29reason for this is because what research
1:18:30shows is that the closer we feel to
1:18:32someone emotionally, the closer we're
1:18:34able to get to them physically. And so
1:18:36oftentimes if you're with a stranger,
1:18:38they stand further away from you because
1:18:40they don't feel as close to you. This is
1:18:42just a a kind of subconscious safety
1:18:44measure. When we're in interactions,
1:18:47it's important to take these distances
1:18:49into account. There are four basic
1:18:52distances between people. The public
1:18:54zone, the social zone, the personal
1:18:56zone, and the intimate zone. The zones
1:18:58that we should stick in the most are the
1:18:59personal and the social zone. So 7 feet
1:19:02away is public, right? We're in in a
1:19:04room with someone. We're not going to
1:19:04have a deep conversation with them if
1:19:06they're 7 ft away. We might say, "Hey,
1:19:08good to see you. Nice nice to have you
1:19:10here." Social zone, uh, anywhere from 3
1:19:13to 5t or four to 7 ft depending on the
1:19:15culture you're in. That's a great space
1:19:17for around a boardroom table. Uh,
1:19:19talking to colleagues in the break room,
1:19:21having kind of casual friendships at a
1:19:23bar or a party or networking event.
1:19:25That's we can have conversation, but
1:19:26we're not feeling super close to them.
1:19:28The personal zone, one of my favorite
1:19:30zones. This is 18 in to about 3 feet
1:19:33away. That's where we like to have most
1:19:36of our friendto friend conversations,
1:19:38our good work conversations. In fact, I
1:19:40advise people to measure the distance
1:19:42between their nose and their camera. You
1:19:45should make sure that your camera is in
1:19:47that zone, 18 in to 3 ft away. If it's
1:19:50too close, you hit the intimate zone.
1:19:52And that's what people are like, whoa.
1:19:54It's almost the equivalent of a close
1:19:56talker digitally. So, you want to make
1:19:58sure that you're not accidentally going
1:20:00too close 18 inches away with your
1:20:02camera or in person. A non-verbal bridge
1:20:04is this idea that I came up with as I
1:20:06observed people in interaction. I
1:20:08noticed that as they were getting
1:20:10closer, they would slowly cross into a
1:20:13closer zone. But we don't like it when
1:20:15someone fully steps into the zone. So
1:20:17instead, there are these non-verbal
1:20:18bridges that we can actually use to
1:20:20create intimacy, which is we reach out
1:20:22and shake hands. The moment we shake
1:20:23hands, our hands have crossed into the
1:20:26zone. It's a bridge. Or if I lean
1:20:28forward, I might just the top of my body
1:20:31has gone a little bit closer into your
1:20:32zone to see how it goes. Maybe you scoot
1:20:35your chair forward. Or maybe you're
1:20:37gesturing forward. You'll notice that on
1:20:39like a really good date, my husband and
1:20:40I love to sit in a restaurant and watch
1:20:43other people's dates and see if we can
1:20:44guess how they're going. really good
1:20:46dates, people are non-verbal bridging
1:20:48all the time. They're reaching out and
1:20:49touching each other's arm. They're
1:20:51reaching and gesturing into each other's
1:20:52space. They're leaning forward to each
1:20:54other. They're whispering into someone.
1:20:56They're saying something a little bit
1:20:57closer into their ear. That is a way of
1:20:59warming them up to try to get into that
1:21:02next zone. I love this when you are
1:21:05trying to be closer to someone
1:21:07comfortably. So, leaning is a great
1:21:10non-verbal bridge. reaching out and
1:21:12shaking hands or handing someone
1:21:13something that is a great non-verbal
1:21:15bridge. Scooting or sitting closer is a
1:21:18great non-verbal bridge to warm them up.
1:21:19I work with a lot of physicians and I
1:21:21share with them you need to do two or
1:21:23three non-verbal bridges before you have
1:21:25to go touch someone, right? It's a lot
1:21:28of times people are nervous around
1:21:29doctors simply because they're about to
1:21:30go in their intimate space. And so, uh,
1:21:32using those can really help warm someone
1:21:34up to that touch.
1:21:36>> Talk about close talkers. Close talkers
1:21:41are breaking a social rule. And we don't
1:21:42like that for two reasons. One, we do
1:21:44not like people who are not wellversed
1:21:46in social etiquette. It makes us
1:21:47nervous. But second, what they're doing
1:21:49is they're crossing into the intimate
1:21:51zone. Close talkers, physically
1:21:53speaking, are less than 18 in away from
1:21:54your face. And this is way too close,
1:21:57too fast usually. But also, there's all
1:21:59kinds of I think this comes from
1:22:00actually health reasons. We don't like
1:22:02it when someone is literally breathing
1:22:04into our mouth. It it grosses us out.
1:22:06like just basically we are breathing
1:22:08their air. We possibly will get their
1:22:10spittle on our face and that gives us
1:22:12this kind of ick factor. And so I say to
1:22:15people if you find that people are
1:22:17backing away from you, you are likely
1:22:19accidentally close talking and they're
1:22:21not ready for it.
1:22:23>> Right. Right. Well, and one of the last
1:22:25responses that you want to trigger in
1:22:27someone is disgust.
1:22:30You know, that's that's way worse than
1:22:31fear. It's way worse than anger. Uh,
1:22:34there's probably not a more destructive
1:22:36emotion that you can feel in
1:22:37relationship to someone than than
1:22:40disgust.
1:22:41>> Have you heard, Jordan, of the ick
1:22:42factor? Have you heard of that?
1:22:45>> Not specifically.
1:22:46>> What you said is is exactly right.
1:22:48There's a phrase, it's oh, he gave me
1:22:50the ick, which means
1:22:52>> Oh, yes.
1:22:53>> They someone did something that gave you
1:22:56that feeling of disgust. And that is the
1:22:58ultimate crusher of attraction, of
1:23:01intimacy, of connection. And I think
1:23:03that sometimes awkward people are
1:23:06accidentally without realizing it giving
1:23:09people the ick and that that discuss. So
1:23:13understanding some of these very small
1:23:15social rules, the distance between the
1:23:16difference between 19 in and 18 in is a
1:23:18big one, right? And so if we can
1:23:20understand those social rules, you're
1:23:22not accidentally giving that the ick,
1:23:24>> right? Well, and you could also allow
1:23:28the other person to set the distance
1:23:30requirement rather than you doing it
1:23:32yourself.
1:23:33>> Yes. I don't know about you, but when
1:23:34I'm greeting people at book signings, I
1:23:36usually plant and I let them decide how
1:23:38close they want to come to me.
1:23:40>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I do that when I meet
1:23:42people in the meet and greets, too, is
1:23:44that I'm I'm pretty much stationary,
1:23:46right? And then they can they can they
1:23:49can make the adjustment as necessary.
1:23:52What is there any relationship between
1:23:54the use of filler words and
1:23:58unsophisticated
1:23:59non-verbal behavior?
1:24:01>> You know, it's funny you asked this. The
1:24:03research is conflicting. It is actually
1:24:05not obvious. We think and we're told use
1:24:09of ums and a's and likes and so and you
1:24:11knows is bad. It takes away from your
1:24:13competence. But there's some research
1:24:16that shows it can be casual. It can be
1:24:18colloquial. It can show that someone is
1:24:20not robotic. And so what I say is is if
1:24:24you're competent in your idea and that
1:24:27gives you verbal acuity, great. But if
1:24:30you need to um or have a like or a so
1:24:32you know, it's not going to destroy your
1:24:34credibility. Because sometimes we
1:24:36recognize as humans, ah they're
1:24:38processing for a moment or they're
1:24:40gathering that story or um it's a habit,
1:24:44right? We have this non-verbal pet
1:24:45peeve. I know some very very competent
1:24:48influencers who use a lot of fillers and
1:24:51people still love them and trust them.
1:24:53So, it's not a deal breaker if it's
1:24:55authentic to your brand. And I know that
1:24:57sounds crazy, but I think everyone has a
1:24:59personal flavor of charisma and there
1:25:01are certain folks who have those as
1:25:03their non-verbal signature or their
1:25:05verbal signature. And if that feels
1:25:07natural to you and you know your stuff,
1:25:10I think it's okay.
1:25:12I wonder if it's a a warmth indicator
1:25:15but not a competence indicator.
1:25:17>> Yes. I think that you know the Pratt
1:25:19fall effect, right? We know that people
1:25:21who
1:25:22>> make mistakes are likable. Well, I I
1:25:25wonder cuz I have struggled with likes
1:25:27and knows. What if ums verbal fillers
1:25:30are a pratt fall effect verbally
1:25:33>> where you're saying I know my stuff but
1:25:34you're showing a little bit of humanity
1:25:36and and warmth and vulnerability. It
1:25:39almost is like ah this person is human
1:25:41and has mistakes and I can trust them
1:25:43more.
1:25:45>> Right. Well, I guess the part of the
1:25:47problem with extremely high level of
1:25:50competence is that it's intimidating.
1:25:54>> Mhm. It leaves us feeling suspicious.
1:25:56>> And you might think,
1:26:00yeah, talk about that. talk about that
1:26:03because you you write about the fact
1:26:04that leaving
1:26:08competence with warmth seems to be the
1:26:11most appropriate strategy. And I guess
1:26:15the thing about warmth likely and
1:26:17agreeableness is that it indicates
1:26:21the probability of reciprocity.
1:26:25Right? We're in this together. You said
1:26:27that if you signal warmth, for example,
1:26:29when you're speaking to your boss, then
1:26:31what you're showing him or her is that
1:26:35you're an ally that can be counted on.
1:26:38And
1:26:40that's different than competent in the
1:26:42mechanical sense.
1:26:45So the use of those fillers that might
1:26:48be
1:26:50that's a warmth manifestation.
1:26:52>> I agree. And I think
1:26:53>> I guess part of it is Yeah. Go ahead.
1:26:56Yeah, I I I agree because
1:26:59when warmth the the outcome of warmth is
1:27:03you belong here. You are safe with me.
1:27:06And that allows someone to open up, be
1:27:09vulnerable. I joke with my highly warm
1:27:11folks. So if you're very highly warm,
1:27:13you are constantly signaling warmth with
1:27:15your verbal, vocal, and non-verbal cues.
1:27:17And what happens to you? It changes your
1:27:19whole life because you sit down on a
1:27:21plane and the person next to you tells
1:27:22you their entire life story. You cannot
1:27:25have friendships where people don't
1:27:26dominate the conversation by by sharing
1:27:28everything. They verbal vomit all over
1:27:30you. And that is because you are queuing
1:27:32everyone. Open up to me. You're safe
1:27:34here. Tell me everything. And so that is
1:27:37the symptom of warmth. Warm folks, their
1:27:40main goal is to be liked. Competent
1:27:43folks, their main goal is to be right.
1:27:48Neither of those are right or wrong, but
1:27:50it plays out differently in
1:27:51relationships. a warm person who wants
1:27:52to be liked, they might be taken less
1:27:54seriously. They're interrupted more. So,
1:27:57highly warm folks are interrupted more
1:27:58because they're people think that
1:27:59they'll be okay with it. Whereas, highly
1:28:01competent folks, they have a totally
1:28:03different set of problems. They're told
1:28:04they're cold, intimidating, hard to talk
1:28:07to. They have some trouble getting buy
1:28:09in or getting uh friendships, and that
1:28:12is because they're so focused on being
1:28:13right that they're willing to sacrifice
1:28:15the likability. You know you're in a
1:28:17relationship with a highly competent
1:28:19person if they constantly Google fact
1:28:21check you because they want to make sure
1:28:23that it's right even if it's going to
1:28:25offend you. They are more focused on
1:28:27that. Neither of these are right or
1:28:29wrong but if you want to get ahead you
1:28:31have to couch you have to lubricate your
1:28:34competence with warmth or else you
1:28:36cannot get buy in.
1:28:38>> So you said and I guess we should
1:28:40probably close with this cuz
1:28:41surprisingly enough this is almost gone
1:28:4490 minutes already. Um, so I guess
1:28:46that's the sign of an engrossing
1:28:48conversation. You said that you were you
1:28:52intimated that you were awkward and I
1:28:55suspect competency focused, but perhaps
1:28:57that's wrong. And you you made a study
1:29:02of this,
1:29:04why did you do that? And what did you do
1:29:08to transform yourself?
1:29:10>> I had a moment in college. I went to
1:29:12Emory University and uh my professor
1:29:15assigned a group paper and I was not
1:29:19good at working in groups. People made
1:29:20me nervous and so I went to him in
1:29:22office hours and I said, "Can I write
1:29:24double the amount of pages and do it by
1:29:26myself?"
1:29:28And he said, "Vanessa, this paper is not
1:29:31about the technical skills. It's about
1:29:32the people skills."
1:29:35And I w I was so overwhelmed. I was
1:29:38like, I I don't know how. I I know how
1:29:41to write, but I don't know how to
1:29:43collaborate. I was never taught that. I
1:29:45was very focused on the competent side.
1:29:47And he said to me, listen, why don't you
1:29:50study for people like you study for
1:29:51chemistry? Why don't you study
1:29:54conversation and body language just like
1:29:56you study for subjects? Soft skills can
1:29:58be learned even if they don't come
1:29:59naturally to you. And that is exactly
1:30:01what I did. In the beginning, I started
1:30:04reading everything I could on non-verbal
1:30:06behavior. I read everything I could on
1:30:07conversation and interpersonal
1:30:09relationships, the amount of a pause,
1:30:11how long should a pause be, how many
1:30:12pumps in a handshake, and I I realized
1:30:16that actually it freed me.
1:30:19If I knew the rules of a handshake, I
1:30:22didn't worry about it. So all of a
1:30:24sudden, if I understood the blueprint,
1:30:26the rules of interactions, I no longer
1:30:28had anxiety about it. So, if I came
1:30:31prepared with little flashcards of
1:30:32conversation start orders that I had
1:30:34memorized, I had no anxiety about the
1:30:36conversation because I always knew that
1:30:38I had a question that I could ask in my
1:30:40literally my back pocket. And so, the
1:30:43way that I felt transformed was that you
1:30:47can study soft skills like hard skills
1:30:49and that if you understand the blueprint
1:30:51of relationships, it actually gives you
1:30:53freedom to be able to be more yourself.
1:30:56And it took many years. I started that
1:30:57at at age 19. I uh posted my first blog
1:31:03a couple years later and it went viral.
1:31:05There was other awkward people out there
1:31:08who also struggled with conversation and
1:31:10I posted my very first YouTube video in
1:31:132007 when no one knew what YouTube was
1:31:16about conversation. And there I realized
1:31:19that other people had this problem. And
1:31:20so very slowly I started to post more
1:31:22and also through other awkward people
1:31:25I've been able to transform. Oh, we're
1:31:27not alone in this. And there are common
1:31:30pitfalls that if we know how to avoid
1:31:31them, we can
1:31:33>> lay out your books for us. Tell
1:31:35everybody the titles of your books.
1:31:37>> Sure. I started with Captivate in 2017.
1:31:40that is all about first impressions, how
1:31:42to be memorable, how to create um
1:31:45lasting relationships through the first
1:31:47five minutes, the first five hours and
1:31:49the first five days. That's how I break
1:31:51down relationships. So, how to turn
1:31:53strangers into friends, friends into
1:31:55soulmates or partners. And so, captivate
1:31:57is a treatise of different people skills
1:31:59that I think everyone should have. Then,
1:32:01I came out with Q's in 2022 that was all
1:32:04the non-verbal behaviors. So, it's 97
1:32:06different cues non-verbbally, vocally,
1:32:09and verbally. I also have a last section
1:32:11on ornaments. I do think ornaments are
1:32:13quite important. The colors you wear,
1:32:15the cues behind you in your background,
1:32:17what you wear, how you wear things, how
1:32:19you wear your hair, your glasses. So,
1:32:21there's a small last section on
1:32:22ornaments, and how that cues warmth and
1:32:24competence. And then I'm working on my
1:32:25next book now called Conversation. I
1:32:27love those Cwords, uh, which is all
1:32:29about what we're talking about today.
1:32:30So, working on that right now.
1:32:32>> And when does conversation come out?
1:32:34hoping 2026 if I'm on time.
1:32:37>> If I'm if I'm on time.
1:32:39>> So, that's a good place to close. I
1:32:41think I I think what we'll do on the
1:32:43Daily Wire side is delve more into the
1:32:45relationship between competence, warmth,
1:32:49and the big five personality traits. And
1:32:52so, for everybody who's watching and
1:32:54listening, you can join us for an
1:32:55additional 20 minutes or half an hour on
1:32:58the Daily Wire side.
1:33:01Is there anything that you'd like to
1:33:03tell the awkward people in the audience
1:33:05who are listening in in closing?
1:33:09>> If you feel underestimated
1:33:12or overlooked,
1:33:14that is real and you are not alone. And
1:33:17there are very specific things you can
1:33:19do to still feel authentic and make sure
1:33:21that people actually see you for who you
1:33:23are and take you seriously.
1:33:25>> Right. Right. Well, that touches back on
1:33:28the dichotomy that we opened the
1:33:30conversation with with which was
1:33:35it's one thing to be competent, but it's
1:33:37another thing to have people aboard and
1:33:40to also have them know that you're
1:33:42competent. And it's very painful
1:33:45watching people who
1:33:48are good at what they do and who have a
1:33:50lot to bring to the table who are unable
1:33:53to market themselves. And that's not
1:33:58deception and it's not advertising. It's
1:34:03communication. And to be very effective
1:34:06and successful in your enterprise,
1:34:09you have to bring something to the
1:34:10table. But you also have to communicate
1:34:13the fact that you are bringing something
1:34:15to the table. Otherwise, you'll be out
1:34:18there in overlooked hell watching the
1:34:21glib psychopaths take credit for
1:34:23everything you do and observing the
1:34:25enterprise collapse around you in
1:34:27consequence. So, thank you very much for
1:34:30sharing your insights with us today.
1:34:31It's much appreciated. And so we'll put
1:34:34links up to your books obviously in the
1:34:37in the description and uh we'll go to
1:34:39the Daily Wire side and talk about the
1:34:42big five in relationship to life and
1:34:45non-verbal behavior.
1:34:47>> Love it. Thank you so much.
1:34:48>> Very nice to talk to you. Yep. You bet.
1:34:51[Music]

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