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Board of Appeals Meeting June 22, 2026 — Transcript

by Town of Southwick, Massachusetts · 6,425 words · 1,246 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00June 22nd.
0:04June hybrid.
0:07We're going to take a couple minutes to
0:08go through our notes from the last
0:10meeting.
0:15Give us a couple minutes, we'll be back.
0:46>> I think I I don't think we should
0:50try to talk about
0:52everything.
0:53There was a correction in type-o in
0:54here, so I would say that uh
0:57if you can mark up the copy
1:00with your suggestions and then we'll
1:02pass them off to Wendy and she can sit
1:04through and rather than saying
1:07paragraph three, sentence two, and
1:09stuff like that. So, I
1:11I did have
1:12I did have some found errors.
1:15Give me mine.
1:22Motion to
1:25Any?
1:26Unless there are some pen specific
1:28comments that you
1:31that needs to be uh
1:33addressed. Well,
1:34the things that jumped out at me are
1:36just some
1:37changes in phrasing and a couple of
1:40type-os, but
1:42Motion to accept the minutes.
1:45>> We did have a
1:46>> With
1:46>> With correction. With correction.
1:48>> With correction.
1:53>> Good.
1:55>> I.
2:50Three certificates made um for
3:33Both can speak.
3:43You hear the phone line?
5:53>> But it should be
5:56Is the audio difficult to hear now?
5:59You don't need
6:26Oh.
6:27Wait.
6:28>> From non-essential personnel
6:31Uh our attendance tonight is uh
6:33Paul Gregoire, Mike Parent, Dan Tobias,
6:37Vice Chairman Bill List, and Chairman
6:39Chris Neshriani, and Secretary Linda
6:42Figuero.
6:43Uh Chief
6:46future paperwork and uh
6:49and uh what's with that? Uh
6:52The public hearing is scheduled to set
6:54for 7:05. You can see we're having some
6:56technical problems, but uh um
6:58We'll get straight to the audio problem.
7:02Just got to learn to go. Zoom in and out
7:04for the audio numbers.
7:20the application, and then we'll take
7:22comments from from the public. We'll
7:25take comments
7:26in favor of the application first, and
7:29then uh
7:30and then opposing the application
7:32second. Uh we'll include any
7:36remote people that that want to make
7:38comments.
7:39And then uh
7:41after everyone
7:42has spoken, we will
7:44uh
7:46we'll close the public hearing and uh
7:49discuss it discuss the issues
7:52on the on the board, ask some questions,
7:55and then we will uh
7:59if it comes to that, we'll make a motion
8:00and and and vote on the on the proposal.
8:19>> Okay.
8:20You get the personal I think you have to
8:22pass out the board of appeals and
8:23zoning.
8:25Okay.
8:26We did the zoning by law then.
8:28Uh okay.
8:31Posting of the zoning appeals June 8th,
8:332026 and June 15th, 2026. Notice is
8:37hereby given the public hearing to be
8:39held Monday, June 22nd at 7:05
8:42hear petitions for property located at
8:44351 North Loomis Southwick, Mass.
8:48The Butters at 351 North Loomis Street
8:50are appealing decision by the Southwick
8:52zoning enforcement officer, who declined
8:55enforcement action regarding the
8:56continued commercial use of subject
8:59property.
9:02Hybrid meeting will be in in person.
9:03We're trying to get the hybrid part
9:05going here.
9:06Um
9:07conference room three at the town hall,
9:09Southwick, Mass.
9:10Okay.
9:11>> [clears throat]
9:11>> Okay.
9:13>> Okay. Uh let me just give a little
9:15introduction to this because it's
9:17quite different than the kind of issues
9:19we normally deal with. We're We're
9:21normally
9:22uh being asked to
9:25uh
9:26dimensions
9:28setbacks and things for the garages and
9:30sheds and things like that. I had to do
9:32some research.
9:33Uh
9:35The Massachusetts general law specifies
9:37that decisions by the Zoning Enforcement
9:39Officer, which in Southwick is the
9:41Building Inspector, can be appealed to
9:44the Board of Appeals.
9:47Yes, this application meets that
9:49criteria criteria and that's why this
9:51public hearing is taking place.
9:54I've had discussions with several town
9:56officials ranging from the Building
9:57Inspector, Town Planners,
10:00uh so on and so forth and they all agree
10:02that that the the decision was properly
10:06before the
10:07the Board of Appeals though that that
10:09that is their contention question now.
10:13>> There's a long complicated history going
10:15back to
10:39>> That history is important
10:41in terms of the Town's
10:42decision Building Inspector
10:44to find
10:45make a change to the status quo of the
10:47property
10:50That's the
10:51the narrow issue that we're here to talk
10:53about.
10:54Based on Southwick Bylaw, there are two
10:56criteria criteria must question the
10:59decision of the Building Inspector.
11:02One, was the business was the business
11:05abandoned or discontinued for three
11:07years? Or two,
11:09is the new use of the property different
11:12than the previous use?
11:14Either of these situations are valid
11:16reasons for us to review the
11:18applications.
11:20Uh
11:20we'll hear from the the applicant and
11:23then we anyone present that wants to
11:26make to make a statement can do so. Uh
11:29just keep in mind that the scope of this
11:31hearing and focus your comments on the
11:33decision of the building inspector in
11:35April 2026.
11:39Observations regarding current property
11:42usage
11:44and to concentrate
11:53The applicant
11:56Here is a summary of all
11:58>> So here
11:59>> How are you doing?
12:00>> Okay.
12:01>> My name is Bradford Porter, I'm an
12:02attorney at 45 Laurel Street, Westerly.
12:06And I represent the petitioners.
12:08>> Okay.
12:08>> Which is Stephanie and Bill Price,
12:11Willie Zimmerman,
12:12Beth and Seth
12:15McCloskey and
12:16uh
12:17Sharon Antico.
12:18>> Okay, so
12:19>> They're the owners that live near this.
12:21To go back a little bit, um
12:25this
12:27We made a demand.
12:28There was no building inspector
12:30So we made it I I got a hold of the city
12:32to take it and it was your town
12:33administrator.
12:34>> Okay.
12:35>> She didn't act for like 6 months.
12:38Um I had to call her and email her and
12:41she said, "I didn't mind it." So I had
12:43to send it to her again.
12:45We then got a decision from the building
12:46inspector who denied it.
12:49What's what's This case is really about
12:52and
12:53our
12:54computer's pretty detailed.
12:57Your bylaw and state laws allow
13:01non-conforming uses are protected and
13:03for a reason. It means when your bylaw
13:05went into effect, Kellogg had this
13:07concrete operation.
13:09And he made septic tanks.
13:11He had a limited hours of operation. His
13:15His website at the time said it was open
13:18weekdays and Saturday morning, no
13:20nights.
13:21And he dealt totally with concrete. He
13:24did transport some of them and he made
13:26just septic tanks.
13:28That's protected right to resell it.
13:30If he had it before you change your
13:31bylaws, you can't say no, you can't do
13:34it. But, it also means that there's some
13:36safeguards for the neighbors in the
13:38town.
13:39And one of them is that
13:41as long as you keep doing it, or sell it
13:43to someone who else is doing it, you're
13:45okay. Okay.
13:47If you abandon it, or in your case,
13:49septic use is a word discontinued, which
13:52still which means stop doing it. In that
13:54case, for 3 years, you may just lose it.
13:57Abandoning it means that you have to
13:58take steps to show you didn't want to
14:00do.
14:01Discontinuing it means you just don't do
14:03it for 3 years.
14:05So, when we made our demand, and we
14:07appealed it here,
14:09this had not been used by Kellogg since
14:12December 2020.
14:14We We gave you a copy. Concrete, it's
14:17imperative to make concrete yet that
14:18water.
14:19We gave you the records from the water
14:21department in Westford showing that as
14:23of November
14:242020,
14:26it was shut off.
14:27These records are dated 4/27/26.
14:30Never been put on again.
14:32That means Barry has never put the water
14:34back on it.
14:35So, so you can't make concrete without
14:38water. That clearly shows it was
14:40discontinued, and it probably shows an
14:42intent to abandon it.
14:44Abandoning it means as soon as you
14:46decide you abandoned it, you lose it.
14:49Not using it means you got to go past
14:52the number of years. Um
14:54And so, this case, and even now, Barry's
14:57not making concrete.
14:59So, so no question that use hasn't been
15:02continued. I don't even think we have to
15:04get to the point question what's he
15:07doing there now, because it's not
15:09protected. The only thing that was
15:11protected was the concrete.
15:13Now, if Barry was concerned and wanted
15:16to protect himself,
15:18all he had to do was either appeal the
15:20building inspector's decision years ago
15:23or even this one.
15:24Um Or years ago he couldn't.
15:26And take it to the zoning board or
15:28actually it's a planning board or zoning
15:30board
15:31and if they agreed with Barry after
15:32notice to all the abutters and nobody
15:35appealed it, he would have been
15:36protected. He's not protected on a naked
15:39building inspector opinion 6 years ago
15:41before he bought it. Because there's no
15:43there's no finality to it.
15:46Your decisions when you make them that
15:48aren't appealed are done. That's it. End
15:50of ballgame.
15:51So so right away there's a mistake he
15:53could have protected. Plus the law says
15:56the person seeking the special use or
15:58permission has the burden.
16:00Not the neighbors. So clearly there's no
16:03We gave So here you see the notice to
16:05Westfield to shut the water off. This is
16:07dated 4 27 26. No review since that date
16:11since November December 2020.
16:14Um and then what What's really
16:16frustrating is
16:19And I understand And the building
16:20inspector maybe he's overworked, didn't
16:22look into it, didn't get any help. One
16:24question.
16:25Um the statute says the building
16:26inspector is supposed to turn over his
16:28file to you. Is there anything other
16:29than his letter turned over?
16:32>> Uh no.
16:32>> Okay.
16:33So his letter says its use is a
16:35construction yard.
16:37>> Well,
16:38which letter are you
16:39>> This this When we made a demand Yeah,
16:42this one right here.
16:43>> In April, okay.
16:44>> Cuz the one that was requested by Barry
16:46years ago was never something that was
16:48given to neighbors. Nobody knew about
16:50it.
16:50>> Okay.
16:51So
16:52So in February 24th the former building
16:55inspector decided that the nonconforming
16:58use could continue.
16:59>> Right. But that was not ever It was not
17:01made a demand. There was no He no
17:03abutters ever got notice. So nobody had
17:05any right to appeal it.
17:07So that You can't You have to disregard
17:09that because it's just like it was not
17:11anything that anybody had public
17:13knowledge of. Okay?
17:15So And so that [clears throat] has to be
17:17disregarded because in fact the building
17:19inspector probably shouldn't have been
17:20doing that, but that's the one where we
17:22really want a protection.
17:24All he had to do was appeal it
17:26to you guys.
17:28Then they would sort of got notice.
17:30So you can't you can't say oh the
17:32building inspector said they could do it
17:33and nobody knows they don't have the
17:35right to appeal.
17:35>> Appeal appeal decision that was in his
17:38favor.
17:38>> To to make it ironclad. I've done it.
17:42I've done it in Westfield. I had a
17:44decision and I I know it's it's tricky
17:47and I say look, let's get in front of
17:49the board.
17:49>> Yeah.
17:50>> Everybody gets notice and the board says
17:52yes.
17:53Fine, then we don't have to appeal it
17:55appeal it nobody appeals it then it's
17:56final.
17:58So the building building inspector's
17:59decision when there's no notice is not
18:00any finality to it.
18:02So so in this case
18:05So what I did is I looked up
18:07construction yard.
18:14And
18:19So
18:37So
18:38this is what the definition if I can
18:40show this to you guys. If you guys want
18:42to take a look.
18:48When you look at non-conformity uses,
18:51you can't generically say it's
18:53commercial or it's construction.
18:55Because you have to look at specifically
18:58what the use was when the zoning
19:00changed.
19:01So in this case, that that's nowhere
19:03near what
19:05what the
19:06they were doing fellows.
19:07So so in this case all it was was
19:10concrete and
19:12we went
19:14and we looked to see
19:16what's at the property now.
19:20So,
19:21if
19:22if Barry is trying to say he's
19:23continuing the concrete service. He has
19:29what was there at Kellogg's old was two
19:30flatbed trucks, one concrete truck, one
19:33smaller Clark brand wheel loader, one
19:35forklift.
19:36All 40 years old and more. Not been
19:38used.
19:39What's on there now is there's a
19:41vibrator screen for processing build,
19:43two excavators, a rock crusher,
19:46two larger wheel loaders, two or more
19:48large large snowplow blades, two snow
19:51mobiles, two boats on trailers.
19:54Tell me how that's related to concrete,
19:55man.
19:56There's two work truck bodies, two
19:58pickup trucks, one work truck with no
20:00rear body, one flatbed truck, one roller
20:03for paving, two box trucks, a
20:04snowmobile. Okay.
20:06So, the point is this is an extension
20:09and this
20:10But, if if
20:11I don't want to get too zoomed in.
20:13If we don't stop this guy,
20:15there's going to be no control over what
20:16he puts there cuz there's no control
20:18now, okay?
20:19So, so when you look at this and you
20:21look at the law,
20:23the first question is is it a is it a
20:24continuation?
20:26Question it isn't.
20:27Is it not been used for 3 years or more?
20:30Question it hasn't. If Barry wanted to
20:32continue it, he could have still made
20:33concrete and did stuff. He didn't. So,
20:35clearly we're beyond that. Plus, I think
20:38we have abandonment. Not only in the
20:40documents we gave you did Kellogg's stop
20:42using law, he stopped his worker's comp.
20:45He had no employees. Nobody was there.
20:48So, and and the cases go through it all
20:50about extensions and alterations, but
20:53this isn't that. This is just not
20:55continuing what was protected and trying
20:57to take advantage of a generic
20:59construction yard and just fill it
21:01through all that. And we don't even know
21:02what he's going to do next.
21:04So, you know, I think that's the simple
21:06explanation. Sorry, guys. We just want
21:08to uh
21:11>> Then I can't absorb that, but what I
21:13want to do is open up
21:14>> Yeah, I want to
21:15Yeah.
21:16>> Get their opinions and all that.
21:17>> Let me just add a certain
21:18>> things to your your timeline that I had
21:20it.
21:21>> Sure.
21:21>> We have a timeline, too.
21:24Uh
21:25>> Ours is not
21:25>> The application to dissolve Kellogg
21:27Brothers company was not filed with the
21:30state until August 24th and was not
21:34approved by the state until October
21:3624th.
21:36>> So, that's that's just
21:38something that I have an answer for
21:41You had to stay open because you hadn't
21:43closed to sell the real estate.
21:45The real estate had to the corporation
21:47had to still be alive
21:49because it held the real estate, okay?
21:52And so, it has nothing to do with
21:53operating it, you know? I I Okay, sorry.
21:55I'm not
21:56>> We're using the same facts.
21:58>> Okay.
21:58>> We're using the same facts.
21:59>> So, So, try it again. Yeah, he's
22:01operating.
22:02>> I'm just saying that it's it's another
22:04fact that
22:05>> No, anyway.
22:06>> Put in the timeline that that that
22:07establishes something in there.
22:09>> It had to be kept open, as I said.
22:10>> And then the and then the other thing
22:11that I I just investigated today was
22:14even though it's our fully residential,
22:17the building and the land have been
22:20assessed as commercial property going
22:22back to 1970.
22:25So, it's just
22:26that
22:27it didn't change from
22:30commercial property to residential when
22:35And well, that's just
22:36a fact
22:37of the assessment.
22:39It may not have any bearing
22:40>> Just to explain that, too, is
22:43commercial is a generic phrase the town
22:45uses for taxation.
22:47Westfield has industrial commercial and
22:49residential.
22:50Three or two classifications. So, so in
22:53that rule, just because it was used like
22:55that until somebody actually changes it.
22:58So, the board wouldn't change it on
22:59their own.
22:59>> But I if it's just something I got
23:02directly from the vision department.
23:04It was a residential property commercial
23:06assessment.
23:08So that's it's just something I I
23:09checked into.
23:11Go ahead.
23:12You can
23:14go on the list.
23:15>> Sorry, I get nervous.
23:16>> And that's what I'm sorry.
23:17>> It's all good to do with
23:19>> Not adversary.
23:20>> Yeah, I don't want to be adversary.
23:21>> It's not It's not a trial.
23:26>> So so so good term was just used for the
23:29general public comments. Is that
23:30adversary?
23:32I want to talk about and give you
23:33opportunity to
23:35explain and put your position whether
23:37you're for or against.
23:39Um and and then again focused on
23:42the property here in question.
23:44And probably about 5 minutes here at
23:47least, okay? We'll give you that fair
23:49time.
23:50So I'd like to open up and give your
23:51name address.
23:52>> If we could
23:53>> We start with the I'd like to start with
23:54the pros. If there's anybody here for
23:56this petition.
23:58I think so.
24:00So
24:01again, we'll start with the comments
24:03from
24:04Just name and address. And you come
24:06forward to the table if you'd like.
24:08You can come to the You can sit. You can
24:10sit.
24:11Wherever you feel comfortable.
24:16Yes.
24:17You can
24:18>> It's got the wires. Is it going to zap
24:19me?
24:20>> Name name and address, please.
24:21>> Uh my name is Sharon Antico. I live at
24:23363 North Loomis Street.
24:25>> Thank you.
24:26>> I was born and raised in Southwick. In
24:28fact, I grew up in the same house that I
24:30live in now.
24:31After college, I decided to move back to
24:34the area.
24:35I made a conscious decision that
24:36Southwick was the best place for me and
24:39to raise my family.
24:41North Loomis Street is not only a
24:43residential area, it is one of farming
24:45and nature.
24:46It offers peace and tranquility that has
24:49always been a staple to Southwick
24:51living.
24:52Growing up in this location means that I
24:54am well familiar with Kellogg Brothers
24:56Concrete.
24:58I was never It was never a hindrance on
25:00our day-to-day lives.
25:02The business operated a very simple
25:04septic tank business.
25:06I would see a truck roll out in the
25:08morning to deliver a tank.
25:10They would come back sometime later in
25:12the day.
25:13They operated 7:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m.
25:16Monday through Friday.
25:18On occasion, they would work until noon
25:20on Saturday.
25:22My family lived amongst a community that
25:24supported supported one another and had
25:26mutual respect.
25:28Kellogg Brothers had a special zoning
25:30permit to make septic tanks and concrete
25:32mix.
25:34We are now forced to live with increased
25:36activity levels that are a detriment to
25:39our residential living.
25:41Barry operates within all hours of the
25:43day and night.
25:44There is dust and debris from air and in
25:47the air from rock orders and crushers.
25:50There is a constant use of Jake brakes
25:52with their trucks.
25:54There is a blatant disrespect for the
25:56residents on our street, including noise
25:59and air pollution.
26:01In addition to the increased levels of
26:03operating this business, my children and
26:05I should not be seeing Barry senior
26:08urinating by the side of his truck while
26:11we're walking down Miller and Anthony's
26:13driveway.
26:16Do you have any questions for me?
26:21>> No, I think that
26:22Thank you very much. Thanks for it.
26:24>> Thank you.
26:24>> Yeah.
26:27>> Hi. Uh my name is Beth Lawley. Uh I live
26:29at 352 North English Street.
26:32Um when my husband and I purchased the
26:35home 10 years ago, we specifically
26:37walked across the street to ask what
26:39type of daily business operations were
26:42like. We wanted to understand what
26:44exactly we'd be living next to if we
26:47bought the home.
26:48At the time, the operation was minimal.
26:50We would hear a truck or two leave in
26:52the morning and return early in the
26:54afternoon.
26:55The business was winding down
26:57um and by about 20 the end of 2020, from
27:01what I personally observed, there was
27:03essentially no business activity. There
27:06was no cement being produced and the
27:07property was quiet. It remained quiet
27:11until 2025. In 2025, the activity
27:14changed significantly.
27:16The operation was much different from
27:18what what it was when we bought our
27:20house. There was substantially more
27:22activity, increased noise, diesel odors,
27:25and operations extending into the
27:27evenings and weekends. On some
27:29occasions, diesel trucks were running
27:31outside until 11:00 p.m. at night.
27:34This was not consistent with the
27:36business that was across the street when
27:38we moved next door. When I contacted the
27:40town to understand what the zoning was,
27:43I was told it was grandfathered. I asked
27:45how it could be considered grandfathered
27:47and
27:47grandfathered with little or no business
27:50in this operation in the past couple of
27:51years. I was told that they
27:54the owner had continued to pay the
27:56business license so they could sell it
27:58as a business in the future. To me,
28:00there's an important legal distinction
28:03between paying to maintain a business
28:05license and it is it's not the same as
28:07continuously operating a non-conforming
28:10use.
28:11A license simply provides permission to
28:13operate a business. It does not by
28:15itself demonstrate that a business has
28:16continually operated that way.
28:19Since the spring of 2026, the property
28:21has once again been relatively quiet and
28:23we appreciate that. But, we're here
28:25tonight to
28:27um ask the town to enforce the zoning so
28:29that it stays this way and that our
28:31neighborhood is protected from the noise
28:33level that we experienced in 2025.
28:37Um it is
28:38uh like what Sharon said, it's it's
28:41beautiful out there. Um you know,
28:43there's there's nature. It's We're very
28:45very blessed to live out there.
28:48Um you know, when we get to enjoy that
28:50and then you know, there's times where
28:52it's just the smell of diesel and when
28:54that the rock orders, you know, you can
28:56just see all the all the dust in the
28:58air.
28:59Um
29:05>> Okay, thank you.
29:07You guys live at 358
29:09in the street and I
29:11I'm at 355
29:15That's
29:16the very next
29:18Half a block all of them are set
29:20already. It's
29:21been been a
29:23since I bought the properties since
29:25Barry bought this
29:27change has been exponential in
29:30everything. The rock orders are I don't
29:32know what they they said, but
29:34My 355 is about
29:39where the rock order is the back master
29:41bedroom of that house. And so when he
29:43runs that rock order, the entire house
29:46shakes violently.
29:48Um
29:49>> When does that happen?
29:51>> We we have the dates written down.
29:53>> All right, thank you.
29:55Is that at night?
29:59>> This one And then I think we have the
30:01rock crusher
30:03Yeah, I mean I have a video of this
30:04being monstrous at about 11:00 in the
30:07morning.
30:08The big trucks the headlights shining in
30:11my bedroom window.
30:12It's
30:13up up there. And then I'm trying to make
30:16the property
30:17better as it was, you know.
30:19It was for that 355 property, but it was
30:22also not in great shape, but now it is
30:24in great shape and I'm trying to make it
30:26better. So
30:28that I do all that hard work.
30:34>> Okay.
30:36>> I didn't spell price
30:38at 353 North Elm Street. Um I don't want
30:42to rehash too much of this also. Fred
30:44covered a lot of this, but we took the
30:46trouble to make up a timeline. I wish I
30:47would have printed out more copies so we
30:49could spread it around, but
30:51we can go back to the water being turned
30:54off in December of 2020.
30:57And then there was no activity down
30:59there.
31:00The letter from the building inspector,
31:02Kyle Scott, came out in February of
31:042024.
31:06Now, we requested from the town what
31:09kind of procedures or any steps he might
31:12have taken, anything he would have
31:13written down, and the town could not
31:15produce anything that one page
31:17supporting that letter.
31:19And once that letter came out, again,
31:21none of us got a chance to come in and
31:23make our case to say these operations
31:25have ceased and what has happened. And
31:27so, you know, we never got a voice in
31:29any of this to say, "No, this this this
31:31is not how things should be."
31:33So, to our mind,
31:35number one,
31:36the operation was abandoned or
31:38discontinued or whatever the correct
31:40term is.
31:41And in terms of change of use, the
31:43amount of equipment and the activity on
31:45that lot is dramatically different.
31:47Um
31:48this is a rock sorter
31:51that's been out there, piles of material
31:53sorted.
31:55Start passing around.
32:00This is a photo of that rock sorter in
32:02action, the dust cloud, the excavator
32:04feeding it. Usually there'd be a
32:06payloader possibly running on the other
32:08side to then load a triaxle.
32:11When that material was sorted, it would
32:12make a pile like this. And if you look
32:14at the size and the scope of that pile,
32:16you can tell that it takes a substantial
32:18piece of equipment to make that pile
32:20that high.
32:21And then that material was then removed
32:23from the lot by truck, triaxle,
32:25payloader, etc. to a new site. So, I
32:29believe that activity requires a special
32:31permit as well to be trucking in
32:32material from one site, sorting it,
32:34processing it, and then trucking it back
32:36out to get another site.
32:38So, to our mind, to anything that we've
32:40been able to gather,
32:42that permit does not exist.
32:45So, this is very much
32:46a large change in use on the property.
32:49Um
32:51we spoke with a Kellogg family member
32:53who worked at the
32:54Kellogg Brothers Concrete Plant for 18
32:56years, and he said that the business
32:58made precast septic tanks, delivered
33:00those tanks, they mixed concrete, they
33:03delivered concrete. They could not but
33:05but they but they could not operate any
33:07other type of business. They were
33:08required to stay inside the footprint of
33:10the existing building. The garages
33:12couldn't be converted into additional
33:13operational space, and they never had a
33:15permit to store material.
33:17Um
33:18I understand some of you have visited
33:20the property recently to kind of get a
33:22view of it.
33:25I do, Seth Cirrachi.
33:32Okay.
33:35You got it. Can you spell it out?
33:37C I R A C E is the last name.
33:41Um
33:42so, I understand some of you took some
33:44time to go out and see the property.
33:46Right now, since February or so of this
33:49year, the activity has been very
33:50limited.
33:51However, last year, that was very much
33:53not the case, and we don't know when
33:55that activity will pick up again and
33:57resume. So, you know, it it's purely at
34:00the whim of the Berrys. And when they
34:02have operated, as they have mentioned,
34:04they have operated nights, weekends,
34:076:00 7:00 at night, whenever they feel
34:10like it, however they feel like it, with
34:12no regard to the neighbors in any way,
34:15shape, or form.
34:16Um
34:18I guess I'll stop it there and
34:21not take up too much more of your time.
34:22>> You sure? That's what we're here for.
34:24That's what we like to see.
34:25>> Okay.
34:26Um
34:28anybody else?
34:32Okay.
34:33That's it.
34:34>> Nelly piece of information I think is
34:36really helpful is at the time Kyle Scott
34:40wrote the letter in his assessment of
34:42the
34:43situation. The dormancy laws at that
34:45time were one.
34:47So they're currently 3 years, but at the
34:48time that letter was written,
34:51um, discontinuation was only 1 year
34:53in order for you to lose your
34:58>> Yeah, and they May of '24 they went to 3
35:00years, which was well after the letter
35:02and years
35:04prior to what we think operations ceased
35:06there.
35:17>> Thank you all.
35:18I'm going to go up
35:20order to appreciate that.
35:23Um
35:26I just wanted to say my lines.
35:30It's so I can understand the passion. I
35:32understand
35:33concerns.
35:38Yeah.
35:40You want to put your
35:42I am ready.
35:43>> You're still
35:45>> I'm ready.
35:46You can comment to me.
35:50I need an address.
36:00previous
36:10All right.
37:07>> Close the public comment section of this
37:09meeting.
37:11We're going to move on to the next
37:12private petition. I have some more
37:14questions or any more comments from
37:16Matt.
37:18This is our
37:19I think we have some comments from
37:21Hopefully we can help you directly.
37:23>> Yeah, it's
37:24I think
37:25This board clearly has the authority to
37:27make legal determinations cuz you do it
37:29all the time with variances. You know,
37:31you decide whether there's hardships and
37:33you know
37:35all the statute. So, you clearly have a
37:38lot of authorities for,
37:39you know, to make these decisions and
37:41rightfully so. You know, you're like the
37:42last stop here.
37:43And I think you got the gist of it, you
37:45know. I think this is more simple, you
37:47know. This is just very extreme.
37:50If very
37:52I represented Barry.
37:54First thing they're going to tell you is
37:56This is going to play in board and ask
37:59to alter extend.
38:01Very simple,
38:02you know.
38:03You could have put it in the contract.
38:05Go before the planning board because
38:07it probably didn't qualify because it's
38:09so far different, you know what I mean?
38:12You know, so
38:13I don't want to keep going, but
38:15yes, if you have questions I can
38:16>> wrap up in a minute.
38:18>> Yeah. Any more comments
38:20that I want to
38:21talk about. Is that the word of
38:23last stop.
38:31I looked through all this. I said, "What
38:32kind of
38:34kind of a gateway that that has to be
38:36gone through either
38:39a legal remedy
38:41from someone or
38:44the attorney.
38:45Or the property owner complaining.
38:48So, I am
38:49I am not sure.
38:51We don't We can't
38:53We're not going to make a decision to
38:55somebody
38:56We're going to make a decision
39:00to find a path
39:02that has to that has to be
39:04>> See, respectfully, I I
39:06think that's not the best to do because
39:09you know, the
39:10your citizens here come to you who have
39:12the authority. I've been in front of
39:14many zoning boards of appeals. I've
39:17gotten tree houses moved
39:18from boards upheld when they shouldn't
39:20have been built.
39:21So,
39:22by you not
39:26granting them the relief, you now put
39:28the burden on them
39:30to spend the money in the court.
39:32And really, the law says the burden's on
39:34Barry. It's the person seeking this
39:37special the special consideration.
39:40So, if he wants it that bad, you you
39:43start a petition. He has 3 days to
39:45appeal it.
39:46Otherwise, what you're doing is you're
39:48forcing the homeowners who probably are
39:50correct on this
39:52to pay and go to court. And you're
39:54actually benefiting Barry. He He could
39:56have protected himself tons of different
39:58ways. I That's the way I don't And
39:59again, respectfully, you know, okay.
40:01Well, I when I said there's two
40:03different ways to go, I didn't
40:05I didn't give one any more weight than
40:07the other. I think you're kind of
40:08assuming
40:09that I'm leaning against you.
40:13But
40:14I think
40:15I think we're leaning in your direction.
40:17So, I
40:19I wouldn't make any assumptions.
40:21I think you're going to be
40:22things are going to be worse than
40:24you expect. But I don't feel so strongly
40:26about that because
40:27I'm going to take it trying to
40:30use this property as special as it is.
40:33It burns you up.
40:35Well, it does say
40:37And so, and then
40:39by granting our petition, he then has
40:41all his rights. He can go both ways.
40:44If he can appeal and he can't go to the
40:46planning board.
40:47You can you can plead alternative stuff,
40:49you know. I agree with you 100%.
40:51>> Okay, sorry. I'm just saying
40:52>> I just wanted to say that with the other
40:53>> Okay.
40:54>> It's kind of people who
40:55question
40:56>> All new questions.
41:17I felt I felt like Wait, that a lot of
41:20the
41:21bar establishments around the lake had
41:23to deal with this sentence.
41:26And thought it, you know,
41:27put some pretty firm
41:29guidelines, but that again is by the
41:30planning board.
41:33So,
41:34you're right, Paul.
41:35>> So, you think that
41:36>> But that if there's a change in that,
41:37that could be
41:41Especially this this board has just been
41:45That was
41:46Landowner wants to go with the roots. He
41:48could have done it 5 years ago. He can
41:50do it tomorrow.
41:52That's him, you know. This board has has
41:55already issued saying what can be done.
41:57Discontinued and it does it's not there
42:00anymore.
42:00It was a number of years in the past.
42:03There's no issue. There has to be.
42:06So, it's not a question similar in any
42:08way cuz it isn't current.
42:10Sure point.
42:14Paul,
42:18>> This one is
42:22And here
42:23construction yards
42:25Construction yards have sort of some
42:27other special
42:29um
42:30ways that they can be done that
42:33boards can't stop them. Do you know what
42:35those are?
42:36>> No, except I only I only gave you that
42:39definition because the building
42:40inspector said it was used as
42:42construction yard equating Kellogg's use
42:45as a construction yard.
42:46>> And so I would have shown that that that
42:48is too generic. You know, you when
42:50you're dealing with non-conforming uses,
42:52you got to be specific because it was
42:54the specific use that is entitled to the
42:56super protection when you're buying a
42:58lot
42:59not the generic use.
43:02>> Well, I don't know if Kellogg is
43:02protected if
43:04if you could define that the new use is
43:06less non-conforming than the old use.
43:09Thank you.
43:09>> But it's really tricky. I don't know if
43:11you can hear it.
43:11>> That's a very good point.
43:13>> That's a good definition
43:14>> We will get into it into those weeks.
43:18challenging
43:19the common theme
43:21of process
43:22Um doesn't mean
43:24So I think we're
43:25on a similar
43:27thought process. This is how how we want
43:29to
43:29get things.
43:31>> Well, I understand. Well, we tried to
43:32make it simple enough to say that
43:35when the case is decided that
43:37abandonment and discontinuing have two
43:40different meanings and all that
43:42discontinuing means is non-use. You
43:44don't need any intent or anything.
43:46And when now you have 6 years non-use,
43:50you don't have buried time.
43:52You're well beyond it. Makes it I think
43:54it makes it very makes a lot easier
43:56decision.
43:57>> Yeah.
43:59>> Yeah, so 2024 it was the change of
44:02hands, correct?
44:04>> Yes.
44:04>> May I believe that change of business?
44:06>> Yeah. this
44:07special permit was
44:09original
44:10Kellogg was solely protected.
44:12>> There was no special permit.
44:15There was no special permit.
44:17>> It was It was non It was protected
44:20non-conforming use.
44:23>> It was pre-dated
44:24the zoning bylaw.
44:25>> Okay.
44:26>> It was from 1972.
44:28So,
44:28since they were already
44:29>> And it's continuous.
44:31>> operating their business, the new bylaws
44:33could not
44:34put them out.
44:35>> Happens a lot because towns are always
44:37either making them more strict or
44:38something and you can't take away
44:40people's rights to do something. So, the
44:42goal is balance the right of the
44:44Kelloggs to keep doing what they're
44:46doing
44:47as long as they don't change it.
44:49And if they want to sell to somebody
44:50else and they do the same thing, they're
44:52protected cuz you got to protect
44:54Kellogg's property rights. But as soon
44:56as you stop
44:58for the requisite number of years, it's
45:00gone and you can't get it back.
45:03>> Well, you can't if you got a plan.
45:05>> Or if you got
45:05>> It's within the within the period of
45:07within the 20 years.
45:10>> Got it.
45:11For sure.
45:11>> It has been
45:12>> It's been more than five years.
45:13>> It did not to today.
45:15>> It lapsed.
45:16>> Oh, for sure.
45:19>> I think that's the easiest step.
45:23>> I I don't have any direct questions.
45:24>> Okay, great.
45:25>> Yeah, I got a pretty good feel on this.
45:26>> Okay. That's actually attached to that
45:28too.
45:29>> All questions are done.
45:32All right, I think
45:35I think I'm I think I'm
45:37comfortable with
45:39the opinion
45:40the opinion that I have.
45:41>> I agree.
45:43>> Everybody is agreeable. I'm going to
45:45make a motion.
45:46>> Secondable.
45:47>> Secondable.
45:48>> Oh, that's all right.
45:49>> Oh, that's true.
45:50>> What?
45:51>> You got your time.
45:53>> [laughter]
45:54>> Good.
46:01>> Will be back in
46:02>> Who do you expect?
46:11Here.
46:14>> Streamline
46:15this. This has to be a 3-0.
46:183-0
46:18>> All three, okay.
46:20>> Oh, we're just picking one.
46:22>> Oh, this is okay.
46:30>> Thank you.
46:32>> Okay.
46:35>> Make a motion to approve the application
46:37appealing the decision of the South Fork
46:39building inspector
46:41who declined to enforce an action
46:43at 351 North
46:45The board feels that the building
46:47inspector should have referred
46:49the present property
46:50owner
46:52to seek a special permit
46:57Use of the property has changed the
46:59number figure.
47:01South Fork bylaw
47:07It requires special
47:10The board is considering
47:12as a
47:13condition
47:15suggested
47:16that the property
47:18given 60 days to submit the application
47:21for a special permit to the planning
47:22board
47:23to start that process.
47:25That's number one.
47:27The building inspector can
47:29enforce
47:30zoning violation action
47:33requires special
47:38>> Second.
47:39>> I'll second.
47:42>> Favor?
47:46All right.
47:52I'll get the
47:53get notified the same thing.
47:59The board meeting.
48:17Such a novel
48:19Like I understand it.
48:20>> And then we could come up with what we
48:21could do the best.
48:22>> Sure if everybody else would have
48:23thought it would be
48:25that it wouldn't be the
48:27But again, it would be the planning
48:28board meeting.
48:31Or it should lie with them.
48:32>> Yeah. Yeah.
48:33>> Yeah, it should lie with them anyway.
48:36Okay.
48:36>> Okay.
48:37>> And tell us thank you.
48:38>> Yep. All right.
48:39Good luck.
48:40>> Yeah.
48:41>> Thank you so much.
48:481.5
48:51Okay.
48:52All right. Have a good evening, folks.
48:53Thank
48:54>> Good night.
49:00>> All right.
49:03>> You know
49:04>> I don't know who the hell it is.
49:05>> Thank you.
49:07Just as a
49:08>> Leave it.
49:11>> We've had things where four or five
49:13years afterwards
49:15they have
49:16somebody appeal
49:18two of the people who had died.
49:22Or
49:23So, they wanted to know two alternates
49:26that both
49:28And then they had the alternates
49:30All right.
49:31Yeah.
49:32So, the
49:33>> We voted on that.
49:35I know.
49:38>> I I mean, I just said
49:40>> I know.
49:41>> He's actually voted
49:42>> And then I I got to meet I got to meet
49:44some few days. So, hopefully we can get
49:46it done.
49:47We're going to give him that sign
49:49tonight.
49:51>> I'm good night.
49:52So, the decision
49:53>> Better to see
49:53>> Thank you.
49:54>> And
49:58We're doing a German.
50:01I'm going to pull all this.
50:05Okay. All right.
50:07I'm about to win this game.

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