YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Blindboy on Autism, Solemnity, and Alpha Male Codes | Fashion Neurosis

Blindboy on Autism, Solemnity, and Alpha Male Codes | Fashion Neurosis — Transcript

by Fashion Neurosis · 18,056 words · 3,140 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:08Hi, come in.
0:15>> [music]
0:16>> Welcome to Fashion Neurosis Blind Boy
0:18Boat Club.
0:19>> What is the crack, Bella?
0:21>> Can you tell me what you're wearing
0:23today and why you chose these particular
0:25clothes?
0:27>> The reason I What's the first after
0:29reason I wanted to come on here is to
0:31really step outside of my comfort zone
0:32because
0:34I don't like
0:36clothes.
0:37I'm [ __ ] at dressing myself and what I'm
0:41wearing today is
0:44So, I'm diagnosed autistic and these are
0:46what I would call my autism clothes.
0:50They're
0:52The issue I have with
0:54I don't want to say fashion, but just
0:55like wearing clothes is
0:59it's another form of social
1:01communication. It's another form of
1:03social communication where you need to
1:04understand rules and when you wear
1:06clothes, you're communicating something
1:08about yourself to another human being.
1:11You're saying something about your
1:12interests, your personality, your class
1:14status
1:15just by the
1:17how you choose
1:18to wear the clothes and
1:21that is difficult enough.
1:24And then
1:25the sensory part of it.
1:28A lot of clothes for me
1:30I mean, clothes are uncomfortable
1:32physically for a lot of people.
1:34But when you're autistic or
1:36neurodivergent, that gets turned up a
1:38little bit. So, what I'm wearing now I
1:41would never ever wear this in public.
1:43Ever ever. Um, these are
1:46my private clothes and every single
1:49aspect of what I'm wearing
1:51no part of it is about communicating
1:53anything to another individual. This is
1:55all about my sensory needs. So,
1:59>> [snorts]
2:00>> the these chewy things I have, they're
2:02from a company called Haulker. They are
2:05orthopedic slippers, I suppose you'd
2:07call them. They're sliders, but they're
2:09not just sliders. They have a lovely big
2:11chunky sole.
2:12So, when I wear them,
2:14it feels like walking on air. My socks,
2:18they're just cotton. I buy women's
2:20socks.
2:21I don't know why, but women's socks are
2:22just cheaper. So, I get five for a fiver
2:24in the supermarket. Like, I repeatedly
2:26buy them.
2:27Um
2:29my underpants, I'm not going to show
2:30you, but
2:31I bought
2:32I bought 364 pairs of Belgian
2:34underpants.
2:36>> [laughter]
2:37>> It doesn't matter that they're Belgian.
2:39It's
2:40I was on a tour in Belgium, and I went I
2:43I was I had time off from a gig, and I
2:45went into It was an outlet store, and
2:47they had a fantastic underpants sale.
2:49So, I bought a year's supply of
2:51underpants in Belgium and took them
2:53home. So, I'm wearing I I think I'm
2:55wearing number 167 of the Belgian
2:57underpants. I don't know the number, but
2:58[laughter]
2:59um
3:01then, these track suit pants,
3:04they're 3XL Slazenger, 100% cotton.
3:10I've been wearing these track suit pants
3:12for maybe 20 years,
3:14but I have maybe 10 pairs of them.
3:17I choose If If I find clothes
3:20where
3:23it's more than just like every person
3:26comes home, and they have the clothes
3:28they lounge about in the house in. Every
3:30person does that.
3:32But for someone who's autistic, it means
3:34a hell of a lot more. It's
3:37How it was described to me was my my
3:39nervous system.
3:41I am able to feel calm. I'm able to
3:45be myself
3:47when I'm not being distracted by
3:49uncomfortable fabrics. Uncomfortable
3:52everyone experiences uncomfortable
3:54fabrics. Neurodivergent people
3:57cannot focus on it. That's my
3:59experience.
4:00So, these Slazenger pants
4:03or or trousers, as you call them over
4:05here.
4:06I've got like nine, 10 pairs of them, 3
4:08XL.
4:09Um this shirt
4:13I mean, this is a piece of [ __ ] but I
4:14love it. It's just a
4:18a workwear shirt. It's made out of some
4:21type of bizarre
4:23plasticky thing. I have to carry
4:27I have to carry a spoon around with me
4:28when I wear this.
4:30This shirt generates s- so
4:34so much static because of the plastic
4:36it's made out of that I get electric
4:38shocks from door handles. So, I have to
4:40carry a spoon around in my pocket just
4:41to
4:42the electric energy goes in there
4:44instead.
4:45>> I didn't know that stopped that, huh?
4:47>> Oh, it does, yeah. It does.
4:49>> a really good tip.
4:50>> That's our keys. Keys are fantastic,
4:53too. So, I carry the spoon around and
4:55then once I do that, before I touch a
4:56door handle, because I hate that. I hate
4:58that charge.
4:59At one point, actually,
5:01sometimes [snorts] I will wear this
5:03shirt outside the house cuz it's what
5:05I'd call socially acceptable.
5:07This shirt, bizarrely,
5:10changed
5:12m- how I made food. Now, that sounds
5:14mad, but
5:16just before the pandemic, I tried going
5:19vegan for a while.
5:20And
5:22when I tried going vegan, I became very
5:24interested in beans, obviously, cuz b-
5:26different types of beans and pulses are
5:28a great way to to make stews.
5:30And
5:32I found myself drifting away from
5:35purchasing beans.
5:37And I couldn't understand why. And then
5:39I figured it out.
5:41I was generating a really strong
5:43electrical charge in this shirt. And
5:45when I would go to the canned goods
5:47aisle,
5:48when I'd reach for that tin of beans, I
5:50swear, I used to get an electric shock.
5:53And I wasn't like I'd notice it and it
5:54was horrible,
5:55but I wasn't consciously clocking it.
5:58And it developed a Pavlovian response
6:01where I naturally drifted back towards
6:03meat because the meat wasn't giving me
6:05electrical shocks.
6:07You know what I mean?
6:08>> Yes.
6:09>> Um
6:11And then what else am I wearing? So this
6:12is just
6:13again, I buy this in a shop called
6:15Guineys, which is a a really strange
6:18shop back in Ireland.
6:20It sells incredibly cheap clothes.
6:23It's where
6:25old men buy their slacks,
6:27you know?
6:29All the Irish men have a way of dressing
6:31that kind of a
6:32tweed and and slacks and and they buy
6:35them in the shop called Guineys, but in
6:36Guineys
6:38they sell everything. So I buy multiples
6:40of this shirt. I have maybe 15 of this
6:42shirt. Again, it's about 2 XL, 3 XL.
6:46This is about how my body feels when I
6:49wear this.
6:51Um t-shirt, it's just Uniqlo cotton. I
6:55like to have 100% cotton on my body.
6:57And
6:59I've got this necklace here. I don't
7:01know.
7:03The necklace is more for me.
7:05Can you see it?
7:08I mean, I'm not trying to communicate
7:10anything with the necklace. It's
7:12was made for me a custom piece by a a
7:14jewelry designer in Waterford in
7:17Ireland.
7:18And what it is is
7:22it's a salmon from old Irish money. When
7:26I say old Irish money, I mean like what
7:28it stopped around 1992 before we entered
7:30the euro. But we used to have a 10p
7:31coin. And on this 10p coin was
7:35the salmon.
7:36>> Right, I remember that.
7:37>> The the salmon of knowledge, yeah. It's
7:39from from Irish mythology, the salmon of
7:41knowledge.
7:42And that's a story that all Irish kids
7:44grow up with.
7:46is
7:49I mean, when I say it, now this could be
7:5110,000 years old this story. The this
7:53story would have been written down in
7:55the 10th century, but it comes from our
7:57oral mythology.
7:59And
8:00what I adore about
8:03not just Irish oral mythology, but any
8:05oral folklore is
8:07we're talking about literature that
8:09exists that's
8:11at a time before the technology of
8:12writing existed.
8:14So, before we could write our stories
8:16down,
8:17we still had epic tales, and people had
8:20to hold these tales in their mouths, in
8:22their brains. But we didn't just hold
8:24them in our mouths or brains.
8:26We held the stories in the landscape.
8:29So, a tree for instance becomes very
8:32important because that tree
8:34is
8:36like a mnemonic point that allows
8:38someone to remember a certain story or
8:42a lake.
8:44And this here, this salmon, this salmon
8:46was a fellow called Fintan.
8:48And
8:50he lived in You can still visit it. It's
8:52called the Shannon Pot. It's a little
8:55a spring, a natural spring up near
8:57Sligo.
8:58>> Mhm.
8:59>> And the thing is with the salmon of
9:00knowledge is
9:03the person who could capture this salmon
9:07would attain all the knowledge in the
9:08world.
9:09Because within pre-Christian Irish
9:11mythology,
9:13we we didn't have
9:15heaven or hell. We didn't really even
9:17have We had kind of a cyclical time.
9:20We didn't have linear time.
9:22>> Mhm.
9:22>> And
9:24there was our world that we live in, the
9:25physical world, but then at all times
9:28there was a mirror reality called the
9:29other world, which didn't exist in the
9:31future or past, but a parallel, almost
9:33like a quantum thing.
9:35And in the
9:37other world
9:39you could access this through certain
9:41points. The fog in the morning was a way
9:43to access the other world.
9:45Also,
9:47natural springs, of which there are many
9:49in Ireland. So, any natural well that
9:53where water would bubble up from the
9:54what from the bottom, and specially
9:56wells that contained mineral water could
9:58be zingy on the tongue cuz it might
9:59contain zinc or minerals. These were
10:01venerated as sources of knowledge. So,
10:04the poets and the artists, thousands of
10:07years ago, would visit these wells in
10:10Ireland to drink the water so that they
10:12may get inspiration. They believed that
10:15if they could drink the water for that
10:16with the bubbles from the other world,
10:18then they could achieve all knowledge
10:21and memorize everything and memorize all
10:23the stories they needed to memorize
10:26because writing didn't exist. They
10:27hadn't heard of writing yet. That only
10:28came in the 5th century century with St.
10:30Patrick.
10:31So,
10:32>> Wow, that's amazing.
10:34>> the salmon of knowledge
10:36was a salmon called Fintan who lived in
10:38one of these wells.
10:40And Fintan ate hazelnuts
10:44that fell from a tree that was
10:46fertilized by one of these wells.
10:49And whoever could catch Fintan the
10:51salmon
10:52would attain all of the knowledge in the
10:54world. All of it forever.
10:57And there was a young boy called Fionn
10:59Fionn mac Cumhaill.
11:01And when Fionn was a little boy,
11:04he had too many questions.
11:07He wanted to know everything.
11:10And his parents couldn't answer his
11:12questions.
11:13And then they said, "Do you know what,
11:15Fionn? You have too many questions and
11:17we don't know the answers. We're going
11:18to send you to the forests
11:20>> [snorts]
11:20>> to live with these wise women." These
11:23they they were We wouldn't call them
11:24witches. They were wise women.
11:26>> Mhm.
11:26>> So, Fionn went to live with the wise
11:28women.
11:29And then they couldn't answer his
11:31questions. He had too much curiosity
11:33about the world. And then, the wise
11:35women said, "Do you know what?
11:37You need to go to the poet Finnegas.
11:40And Finnegas is the wisest man that we
11:43know. He is the wisest person in
11:44Ireland."
11:45So, Fin- Finn travels to meet Finnegas.
11:48And Finnegas is an older man.
11:50And he is fishing beside one of these
11:53holy wells.
11:54And Finnegas has spent his life trying
11:57to find the salmon of knowledge, to
11:59catch it.
12:01He has learned all the stories, all the
12:04knowledge. But the one thing he needs to
12:06do is to catch this salmon so that he
12:07can eat it and get get the knowledge of
12:09the world.
12:10So, young Finn McCool was about 10 years
12:12of age at this point says, "I'm going to
12:14help you. I'm going to help you to catch
12:16this salmon. I'm going to become your
12:17assistant. I want to learn from you."
12:19So, he does.
12:21And finally, one day, the old man,
12:24Finnegas, the poet, catches the salmon
12:27of knowledge. He has it. And he's
12:29thrilled.
12:30And he says, "I'm going to eat this. I'm
12:33going to eat this. And when I eat it, I
12:35am going to attain all the knowledge of
12:37the world." So, he gets the salmon and
12:39he puts it on a spit over a fire to cook
12:41it.
12:43But he's tired. He's tired because he
12:45spent the day trying to catch that
12:46salmon. So, he says to young Finn
12:48McCool,
12:49"Will you turn the spit on this salmon,
12:51please?
12:52And I'm going to eat it later." So,
12:54young Finn does. But as he's turning the
12:56salmon,
12:58he notices a blister appear on the skin
13:00of the salmon.
13:01And then, he gets his thumb and he puts
13:03the blister out.
13:04And when he does that, he goes, "Fuck
13:05it. Ow." He sucks his thumb.
13:08And then, he gets all the knowledge of
13:10the world. It goes to the young boy, and
13:13it doesn't go to Finnegas.
13:15But Finnegas is cool with it cuz he's
13:16like, "The salmon chose you."
13:19And then, from then on, whenever Finn
13:21McCool wanted the answer to anything or
13:23to remember a poem or remember a story,
13:26he just sucked his thumb.
13:28>> Wow.
13:28>> I love that story because that sounds to
13:31me like a 2, 3,000 year old story about
13:34an autistic kid. That's what that sounds
13:36like to me.
13:38He has so many questions they can't get
13:40the answers.
13:42And then when he sucks his thumb,
13:44that's stimming.
13:45>> God, that's so good. Yeah.
13:48>> I generate those electric charges in my
13:49body and I need to have that spoon,
13:51>> Mhm.
13:52>> often it's because I spent a good
13:53afternoon stimming.
13:56There's things that I do privately as an
13:57autistic person that I just will not do
13:59in public.
14:01I wear these clothes and I will spend
14:03hours pacing up and down and rubbing my
14:06hands. I have a callus on my hands from
14:07rubbing them like that.
14:09When I do that,
14:11on the outside it looks like
14:13the behavior of a crazy person, but for
14:15me it's intense joy. It's it's it's like
14:18when a computer gets really hot.
14:21When you ask it to do a big task and and
14:23the fan starts going quickly, that's
14:25what stimming feels like for me. So that
14:26salmon and knowledge story,
14:28that is a ancient Irish story about an
14:31autistic kid. That's what it means like
14:32to me for me.
14:33>> Mhm.
14:34>> What the 10p significance?
14:37When I was a little child,
14:40I had uh
14:42I had an uncle, an old [ __ ] Irish
14:44uncle
14:45with the name of Noel.
14:47And I'd have been maybe 4 years of age.
14:50And
14:52Noel was what we'd call in Ireland the
14:54mineral uncle.
14:55And what the what I mean by that is you
14:58might have some kind of semblance for
15:00this cuz I know your grandmother's
15:01Irish. She ran a pub, didn't she?
15:02>> Yes. [laughter]
15:03>> Yeah. So
15:05if you're Irish or if you're Irish in
15:07England, you'll know about these mineral
15:08uncles. It's an old Irish uncle and you
15:11meet him at a communion, you meet him at
15:13a wedding.
15:14And they would come up to you and they'd
15:16say, "You have a tin of minerals.
15:18You have a tin of minerals. You have a
15:19tin of minerals."
15:21And it's a noise, but what it means is
15:23the uncle is saying, "Will you have a
15:25tin of mineral?"
15:27Now, that actually ties into what I was
15:28saying earlier about the holy wells.
15:31In Ireland, we call fizzy effervescent
15:33drinks minerals. We don't do it anymore,
15:36but old uncles used to minerals.
15:39And that's a really beautiful thing
15:40because
15:41in the 1940s, 1950s,
15:43all of a sudden you've got fizzy drinks,
15:45you've got fizzy orange, Coca-Cola.
15:48When
15:49old Irish people would drink these fizzy
15:51drinks,
15:53the reference that their tongue had for
15:54this drink would have been maybe a holy
15:57well that might have had zinc in it or
15:59might have had some type of metal that
16:01would have tasted zingy. So, we started
16:03to call fizzy water mineral water.
16:05>> Mhm.
16:06>> So, my Uncle Noel was one of these
16:07mineral uncles.
16:09And whenever I'd meet him, he'd be like,
16:12"You have a tin of mineral? You have a
16:13tin of mineral?" Or what he would do is
16:16he used to do this [ __ ] brilliant
16:17magic trick that I thought was
16:18astounding when I was four.
16:21He'd stand over me
16:23and he had this big [ __ ] red head
16:26because
16:27he used to smoke like 60 Majors a day.
16:30May- I don't know if you had Majors. Did
16:32you have Majors here?
16:33>> My grandfather used to smoke Majors.
16:35>> an Irish brand? Yeah.
16:36>> Yeah, uh he he lived in Ireland, but he
16:38was God knows where he came from, but he
16:41he lived there married to my Irish
16:43grandmother.
16:44>> So, Majors were like in Ireland, they
16:46were
16:47>> stain on the mustache.
16:49>> very powerful cigarettes. When I was a
16:51kid,
16:53when we were 9 or 10 and we used to
16:54smoke cigarettes, if you were a child
16:56and you got addicted to cigarettes,
16:58you would have to smoke Major in order
17:00to get off cigarettes. That was the That
17:01was the urban legend. They were so
17:03strong, so horrible, but if you were a
17:04child, they'd turn you away.
17:05But my Uncle Noel, anyway, he smoked so
17:07many cigarettes that
17:09his head was a shade of pink.
17:12Tipperary red, we'd call it.
17:14And
17:1560 [ __ ] a day, like the blood isn't to
17:18be flowing all over your body properly.
17:20So, what Noel used to do is he would
17:22take out a 10p coin with this salmon on
17:24it and
17:26and stick it to his forehead.
17:28And it would remain stuck to his
17:30forehead with the power of uncle sweat.
17:33And I'd put my hands out underneath as a
17:34little child, like it was a communion.
17:37And we'd wait. We'd [laughter] wait for
17:39the 10p to drop off his head, right? And
17:41then it would drop down off his forehead
17:43into my little hands.
17:45>> [laughter]
17:45>> And I'd get to keep the 10p. What
17:50>> [laughter]
17:50>> Noel was so [ __ ] unhealthy from the
17:53[ __ ] right?
17:54>> [laughter]
17:55>> That he'd walk around with this white
17:56indentation of the 10p on his head for
17:58the rest of the day. The blood wouldn't
18:00come back. The blood would be like,
18:02"Fuck that. I'm not going up to his
18:03head. [laughter]
18:05He's smoking 60 [ __ ] a day. I'm not
18:06going up to his head. I'm going to stay
18:08here on his chest." So, he'd walk around
18:10with that all day.
18:12And what I used to love though about the
18:1410p,
18:15I was too young to understand what money
18:17was. I didn't know this could be
18:18exchanged for goods and services.
18:22What the 10p meant, now my dad was
18:24probably a bit autistic as well because
18:26when people would visit the house, my
18:27dad used to jump out the back window,
18:28which is quite autistic behavior. But
18:31when my uncle Noel would leave, my dad
18:33would come back in
18:34and I knew if I got the 10p off Noel, my
18:37dad would tell me the salmon of
18:39knowledge story.
18:41That's what it means to me. So, this is
18:43the only thing on me really that's
18:46This is for me. Um
18:49Does it serve a purpose? Do you know
18:51what? It [ __ ] does because
18:54if I'm
18:56anxious about small talk, I can whip
18:58that thing out and speak there for about
18:5920 minutes with a very interesting story
19:01and then run away.
19:03>> [laughter]
19:04>> Am I talking too much, Bella?
19:06>> Oh god. The thing is about how how you
19:09talk is
19:11it's so interesting and it kind of
19:15you know, refreshes the past.
19:17>> [laughter]
19:18>> I mean, it's
19:19just everything you're describing, I've
19:21got some kind of
19:23recognition of some of it and I had an
19:26uncle Sonny. I couldn't understand
19:28anything he said, but
19:29>> Brilliant.
19:29>> I just remember that.
19:30>> That's a mineral uncle.
19:31>> Yes, and he was so great and so kind and
19:35great with dogs and so
19:37it's
19:38you know, in listening to your podcast
19:40and and reading your stories, the
19:43you
19:45everything
19:46you say just opens up all these other
19:49avenues and
19:50it's just so thrilling to to listen to.
19:53So,
19:54I can't really answer your question
19:56except for
19:57>> Thank you very much, but
20:00I mean, that's why I do it. That's the
20:01joy.
20:02>> Mhm.
20:03>> Um
20:05as a writer,
20:08you know, you were asking Colm Tóibín. I
20:10was listening to it when you were
20:11chatting to Colm Tóibín and Colm was
20:12talking about
20:15I think he was critiquing the phrase
20:18write for yourself, you know?
20:20He was kind of saying, you know, if
20:22you're writing, write for yourself. You
20:23should have some awareness of an
20:25audience.
20:26And I agree with him, but
20:30Are you Are the only reason I write is
20:32so that I can have the opportunity to do
20:34it again?
20:35>> Mhm.
20:36>> [clears throat]
20:36>> If If I write a book,
20:38it's so that that book
20:41can be successful enough that another
20:42book can happen.
20:44My joy is is in the process, the bit in
20:47the middle.
20:48I
20:50I don't like it when a book gets
20:51published. I don't When a book gets
20:53finished, it feels like a little death.
20:55>> Mhm.
20:55>> You know?
20:57Um I adore the process
21:01of experiencing flow. That's what I'm
21:04into.
21:05>> Yeah.
21:05>> Flow state.
21:06>> Yeah.
21:07>> If I can access flow state, I'm in
21:09heaven. You know, I I don't believe in
21:11heaven or hell. He- He- Heaven for me is
21:13it's in the present moment and it's when
21:15I'm in flow. And when I'm in full flow
21:18writing a piece of fiction,
21:22it's like I'm in the cinema and and a
21:23film that's made just for me is
21:25revealing itself to me. It is the most
21:27beautiful feeling in the world and
21:29everything about my life is to try and
21:31chase the dragon of that feeling.
21:33>> Mhm.
21:34>> These clothes are important to that.
21:36If I'm to experience flow,
21:38>> Mhm.
21:38>> my [clears throat] nervous system needs
21:39to be calm. I can't have
21:43a set of trousers on me that are feel
21:45too tight
21:47or a jumper that I'm very aware of.
21:51And this is why
21:52like I failed school, you know.
21:55I went all the way through secondary
21:56school, but I In Ireland, we have a
21:58thing called a leaving cert, which is
21:59like the A levels or whatever or GCSEs,
22:02whatever you have.
22:03I left school without that
22:05qualification, so I failed school.
22:08And I could never understand why. I just
22:10called myself lazy
22:11because
22:14I'm deeply curious. I love
22:16[clears throat] learning. I am
22:18very good at remembering things.
22:23And I think with school,
22:27I my nervous system could never relax
22:29because
22:31I have the noise of simply being in a
22:33space with other people,
22:35having to read the teacher's face while
22:37they're trying to tell me information.
22:39And I kept getting suspended cuz I
22:41wouldn't wear my school jumper.
22:43I would not wear it.
22:45>> God, that's so ludicrous, isn't it?
22:47>> You know, yeah, and I used to like I
22:49only got diagnosed about three or four
22:50years ago. So, the thing is with with
22:53getting diagnosed with autism,
22:56you have to go back
22:58on your It It's There's a bit of a It's
23:00a bit of a psychoanalysis thing. You got
23:02to go back right back to your childhood
23:05and reinterpret everything through the
23:07lens of knowing now that you're an
23:09artistic person.
23:11So,
23:13I knew I hated clothes. I knew I hated
23:16certain fabrics.
23:18But when I was
23:19not wearing my school jumper and getting
23:22suspended,
23:23what I had told myself was I was just a
23:25little prick. I I hated the fact that I
23:28was being told what to do.
23:29>> Mhm.
23:30>> I was defiant. But these are just the
23:32shame-based excuses that I'd made for
23:35myself because I did not have the
23:36language to know actually
23:40you are an artistic person and your
23:42sense you sense the world very
23:45differently.
23:47And fabrics for you specifically, it's
23:49turned up a bit.
23:50>> Mhm.
23:51>> For other people, it's six or seven.
23:53Some Everyone gets annoyed with fabrics.
23:56The autistic person, it's up at about
23:57eight. And when it's up at eight or
23:59nine, you you cannot ignore it.
24:01>> Yeah.
24:02>> And when you can't ignore it, the
24:03attention that you need to learn about
24:06history to pay attention, not happening.
24:09Because it's like a wasp in your ear all
24:10the time.
24:11So, I do know that about myself now and
24:14and it's very helpful because
24:18for navigating shame.
24:20You know, we were speaking about shame
24:22beforehand.
24:23>> Mhm.
24:25>> Shame is is is
24:29I think it's the worst.
24:31It's the most painful of all the
24:32emotions, I think, shame. Um
24:35A wonderful description of shame I heard
24:37recently was
24:39it's the sudden contraction of self.
24:43>> Yeah. My god, that's so good.
24:46>> It is exactly. Isn't it so true?
24:47>> Yeah.
24:48>> Um
24:50>> It's like you cease to function.
24:52>> Mhm.
24:53>> You have a shame attack. And then
24:56there's
24:57they call something called a shame
24:59spiral and it's like you disappear down
25:02and nothing works anymore
25:04>> Mhm.
25:04>> except for the heat of embarrassment.
25:07>> Mhm.
25:08>> And
25:10yeah, it's um
25:12>> I I
25:12>> that jumper you were describing
25:15literally stopped you from being able to
25:17use your intelligence because of how
25:20much irritated the system
25:21>> it would be one of the
25:24let's think of them as distractions.
25:26>> Mhm.
25:27>> And
25:28in order for me to achieve flow and I
25:31need to I need to relax. I need to be
25:33relaxed. I need to be safe and happy.
25:36Safety.
25:37We hear the word safety a lot.
25:39>> Mhm.
25:40>> And
25:42like you already got to do is look at
25:44kids. You just got to look at little
25:45kids.
25:46The little child who is playing
25:49is the child who feels safe.
25:52And when we're adults and we're just and
25:55we're [ __ ] create
25:56we're just playing.
25:58That's all it is. It's it's a much more
26:01I don't want to say sophisticated but
26:03creativity creativity is is adult play.
26:06And just like little toddlers
26:09to create effectively, you need to
26:11experience a feeling of safety and I can
26:15only experience flow when I feel safe.
26:18Mainly when I'm creating, I'm trying to
26:20feel safe from the fear of failing.
26:22>> Mhm.
26:23>> And fear like fear of failure, that's
26:25where that shame comes in.
26:27>> Yeah.
26:27>> If I'm sitting in front of a blank page
26:30and I cannot write and I'm getting a bit
26:32of block shame steps in and when my
26:35shame is
26:38like shame is the sudden contraction of
26:40self
26:41but also the thoughts that you
26:42experience that I experience during
26:44shame is
26:46my thoughts it's a negative global
26:49evaluation of my entire self.
26:53You know what I mean?
26:54Cuz what's happening is
26:57you're having difficulty writing a
26:58story. Who gives a [ __ ] Who gives a
26:59[ __ ] You're having difficulty writing a
27:01story.
27:02But that's not the inside of my mind.
27:03The inside of my mind is ah you are a
27:06worthless piece of [ __ ]
27:09Everything
27:11even even even if I look to
27:13a previous success where I I created a
27:16piece of work I was happy with
27:18my shame will step in and say, "No, no,
27:20no. That was a mistake. That's an That
27:22was an accident."
27:24Now, right now, you're finding out you
27:26are nothing.
27:27You are absolutely nothing. And that is
27:30shame.
27:31And what I'm very interested in is
27:35the emotions that pop up to protect
27:38me or or humans in general from shame.
27:42Anger.
27:43Anger When anger comes in, especially
27:45irrational anger, I'm even doing it now
27:47with my fists.
27:50It's very easy to to somatically feel
27:52anger.
27:54It's actionable. Your brow furrows. You
27:56know, you do this, you grit your teeth.
27:58There's all these things.
28:00And anger, I think, often pops in to
28:02protect us from shame because what the
28:04[ __ ] do you do with shame?
28:06You're trying to crawl into this hole
28:07that doesn't exist.
28:09You know?
28:10It's
28:11vulnerability, nakedness.
28:15That's what I love about your dad's
28:16work, by the way.
28:18I feel that's
28:20I mean, I've been a huge fan of his work
28:21all my life, but
28:25I I my When I would see the the the
28:30the way that he would paint nudity, it
28:32was like a thesis on shame.
28:35Do you know what I mean?
28:37>> What? Tell me what you mean.
28:39>> Um
28:43like
28:46even part of my choice to this, this is
28:48my nudity here.
28:49>> Mhm.
28:50>> You know what I mean?
28:51I know that
28:52>> Having the
28:53the bag on your head is
28:55>> Oh, [ __ ] it. I never spoke about the
28:56[ __ ] bag.
28:57>> your entire outfit and then
29:00>> [laughter]
29:01>> I forgot about that. [ __ ] it. That's the
29:03best way to do it. That's the best way
29:05to say nothing about the Every [ __ ]
29:07[ __ ] is watching this and I'm talking
29:08about a shirt and my ideas
29:10>> [laughter]
29:10>> and everyone's gone, "You're wearing a
29:11bag on your head, man." I forgot about
29:13it. I've been doing it for so long.
29:15>> Got to tell you that [laughter]
29:16your shirt is quite trendy.
29:19>> [ __ ] off. Is it?
29:20>> I'm sorry to because there's a designer,
29:23very amazing designer called Hedi
29:25Slimane, who used to do Saint Laurent
29:28and he did Celine. He was really into
29:30those kind of plaid shirts and it's not
29:33there's not much difference between what
29:35you're wearing.
29:36>> didn't know that. So, this is
29:38unintentional style.
29:38>> of on trend without even intending to
29:43be.
29:43>> fantastic. That's wonderful.
29:45But, uh
29:46yeah, this this this outfit is my
29:48nudity. I like I was
29:51like I'm here to to do your podcast, but
29:53I'm also
29:55like I'm aware of who your father is.
29:56Your father's work was
29:59Again, he he's one of the
30:02When I was a teenager and I was
30:04experiencing mental health difficulties,
30:05there was artists like him
30:09like a type of a religious shrine to me.
30:12And
30:14your father's paintings would have been
30:15one of the things that I would have
30:16engaged with that would have made me
30:18feel safe.
30:19You know?
30:20Um as well as Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan,
30:23David Bowie, Kate Bush.
30:25>> Mhm.
30:26>> The writers like Flann O'Brien, James
30:27Joyce.
30:30These people would make me feel normal.
30:32>> Mhm.
30:33>> Um
30:35Your dad made me feel normal because I
30:37think he might have been a bit of a mad
30:39[ __ ]
30:40You know what I mean? He was ex-
30:41eccentric.
30:43And I always drifted towards the
30:44eccentric artists because before I knew
30:47I was autistic, I was just an eccentric
30:48artist.
30:49And so many artists that I admire and
30:52read about, they had
30:54eccentricities.
30:56Now, these people are getting diagnosed
30:58as autistic.
31:00Um
31:03When I came here,
31:06I'm going
31:07if I was doing a painting with your dad,
31:09he'd expect me to show up in the nip.
31:12Well, here, this is me. I'm in the nip.
31:14These are my private
31:16artistic clothes that no one ever sees.
31:20And they're just for me at home. And And
31:22this is about my sensory needs. So, this
31:24is my nudity as such, you know?
31:27Uh the bag
31:30I've been wearing the bag for 20 years.
31:33Like
31:36This I only got diagnosed as autistic 4
31:40years ago.
31:41This bag on my head was a huge reason
31:43for that diagnosis. Uh I'm a podcaster.
31:46I'm a writer.
31:49A lot of my listeners were listening to
31:50my podcast, especially autistic
31:52listeners, and saying,
31:53"I think you might be autistic. A lot of
31:56the stuff you speak about feels very
31:57autistic." So, I said, "Fuck it. I'm
32:00going to get diagnosed for the crack.
32:02I'll go for a diagnosis and see what the
32:03crack is."
32:04And it was a long process, about 6 weeks
32:06with a psychologist.
32:09And the big question the psychologist
32:11asked was, "Well, why why do you wear a
32:12plastic bag on your head?"
32:15And then I said, "Well, you know, it's
32:18I've been doing it for a long time. I'm
32:20a public performer.
32:22I'm in the public eye in Ireland.
32:24Um
32:25>> So, you went to see him with the bag on
32:27your head?
32:27>> No, without the bag. But, he knew what
32:29my job was.
32:30>> Right.
32:31>> And see, there's a big thing within
32:33autism called masking.
32:36Autistic people mask, especially and I
32:39need to be clear.
32:42I'm what's called level one autistic. We
32:44used to be called Asperger's, but we're
32:46not anymore because Hans Asperger was a
32:49[ __ ] Nazi. And Hans Asperger was a
32:51doctor that when the Nazis were
32:53exterminating people that they
32:55considered to be disabled, Hans
32:56Asperger's picked certain kids and said,
32:58"Not these ones. These ones are going to
33:00be rocket scientists or something
33:01different going on here." So, they
33:02became the Asperger's kids.
33:04>> Wow.
33:04>> Asperger's is now called level one
33:06autism, and that's what I am.
33:08>> Right.
33:08>> know how I feel about it because
33:11I cannot speak for people who are level
33:13two or three, or people who are
33:14non-verbal. And I hate taking up that
33:17space
33:18for someone to look at me as
33:21a successful writer and go, "Oh, he's
33:23autistic. He did all right."
33:24>> Mhm.
33:25>> My lived experience is wildly is is very
33:28very different to someone who's level
33:29two or level three.
33:31But,
33:32autistic people, especially level one,
33:35we mask. We have
33:38a personality that we have created to
33:40deploy in public situations in order to
33:43appear normal. We suppress our hand
33:46movements. I want to do this all the
33:48time. If I'm talking, I want to stim,
33:50but I don't do it cuz it makes people
33:52uncomfortable. But, by myself, I do it.
33:54And I wear these clothes.
33:55And the psychologist was saying, "You
33:58wear a mask for your job.
34:00Why do you do it?" And then I said,
34:02"Well,
34:04I'm kind of I I I'd be well known in
34:05Ireland. In Ireland, I'm like zealous
34:08celebrity, but I'd be recognized by most
34:10members of the public. And I said,
34:13"I don't want to go into the [ __ ]
34:14supermarket and have a stranger come up
34:17and recognize me and have small talk."
34:19And then he said, "What's so bad about
34:21that?" And I said, "That's terrifying to
34:23me."
34:24Unplanned small talk with strangers is
34:26[ __ ] terrifying. And that got me a
34:28big tick on the autism box. Box.
34:30[laughter]
34:31So, this mask really
34:33without me even knowing it, this is
34:35>> Yeah.
34:35>> This is what we would call an
34:37accommodation.
34:38I'm trying to be an artistic person, an
34:41artistic artist.
34:43I want to pursue my interests. I want to
34:45be a writer.
34:46>> Mhm.
34:46>> I want to release books. I want to make
34:47podcasts. I understand that part of that
34:50means
34:51I must
34:53engage in the public eye. I got to do
34:55things like this.
34:56>> Mhm.
34:57>> I want to do this, but also take this
35:00bag off and be nobody, and live a very,
35:02very quiet life where I can visit the
35:05supermarket, have my routines.
35:08Wear this in the supermarket if I want.
35:10Here's the other [ __ ] thing as
35:11someone in the public eye.
35:14I I hate seeing it when
35:16the paparazzi, right? You you'd have it
35:17around
35:19You'd have some part famous person, and
35:22they'll go to the end of their gate,
35:24and they might have a hangover, or they
35:25might look like [ __ ]
35:27And all of a sudden the paparazzi's
35:28outside, and they're
35:30front page of the Daily Mail, this
35:31person is having a nervous breakdown. I
35:33was like, "They're just wearing a
35:34tracksuit."
35:35You don't know that. They're just
35:36wearing a tracksuit. And that the idea
35:39of that used to terrify me.
35:40>> Mhm.
35:41>> That
35:42if I am well known,
35:44and I would go into the supermarket, and
35:46I'm dressed like this in my sensory
35:48needs clothes,
35:50this communicates mental health
35:52difficulties. No disrespect to anyone
35:54that dresses like this, but sliders,
35:57track suit pants,
35:59excessive comfort, not engaging with the
36:02social language of fashion,
36:04>> Mhm.
36:04>> that communicates
36:06this person is in distress.
36:09This person is unwell. This person is
36:11depressed. That could be my ableism, I
36:14don't know,
36:15but
36:16>> What does [snorts] ableism mean?
36:18>> Ableism is
36:20even though I'm an artistic person, I
36:23didn't find out until my 30s, which
36:25means I grew up
36:27with the rules from society
36:29>> that [clears throat]
36:32would have used slurs against people
36:34like me.
36:36So, one reason I don't dress like this
36:38is cuz I don't want to look autistic in
36:40public.
36:41And that's my ableism. That is that is
36:44unhelpful discriminatory discriminatory
36:46beliefs
36:48that I have learned from society about
36:50people who are considered disabled, you
36:53know?
36:55It's [clears throat] like misogyny, like
36:57racism.
36:58We have
37:00absolutely unhealthy
37:03toxic beliefs about groups of people
37:06based on [ __ ]
37:08Based on [ __ ] hierarchies.
37:11And
37:12some of them, too, unfortunately, make
37:14them make their way into
37:18modern psychiatric literature. And the
37:20example I'd give there is
37:23when I did get diagnosed with autism,
37:25the person diagnosing me said,
37:27"By the way, this this may not even be
37:30in here in 5 years time.
37:32My personal opinion is it won't.
37:35But, the best we can do is call this
37:38a diagnosis."
37:40>> I'm conscious that I've only asked you
37:42one question and we've been talking for
37:44>> I know.
37:45>> a while. Can I
37:46>> Jesus, I don't know whether it's a good
37:47or a bad thing.
37:48>> Well, it's a wonderful thing because
37:51everything is great comes out of your
37:53mouth, but just want to
37:55for anyone for the for someone who may
37:58not know who you are, you are
38:02Blind Boy the enormously successful
38:04podcaster with millions of weekly
38:07listeners, a best-selling author, a
38:09musician, and a cultural commentator.
38:13And you wear this plastic bag over your
38:16head, which
38:17I was looking looking at the pictures
38:19and it did remind me a little bit of
38:21Francis Bacon with the the kind of
38:23swishy stripes and uh
38:25but your voice is so compelling and I
38:28wondered if anyone ever
38:30recognizes you from your voice.
38:33>> I have had that a couple of times in in
38:36closed spaces. Yeah, um I was in a lift
38:39once and I I asked the person in the
38:41lift, I said, "What floor do you want to
38:42go to?" And they immediately turned to
38:44me and said,
38:45"It's you."
38:46And then I was stuck in the lift for
38:47about 90 seconds
38:49and then they just kept promising that
38:50they wouldn't describe my face to
38:52people.
38:53Um
38:55it does happen sometimes. I did the the
38:57the thing with the bag is it does
39:00What I've read about realized about this
39:02is
39:03when you look at Superman and you think
39:05it's ridiculous that Clark Kent just
39:07puts on glasses and that's enough, like
39:09it really is enough. It really is.
39:11[clears throat] But the voice does give
39:13me away sometimes, but what I find is
39:16when it comes to notoriety or fame,
39:19we're obsessed with the spectacle.
39:21Um
39:22>> Oh, yeah.
39:23>> When people meet me without the bag,
39:26they're not meeting the spectacle. The
39:28spectacle is this. It's like when you
39:30see
39:32you know, we're so used to hearing Homer
39:34Simpson's voice or Lisa Simpson's voice
39:37and then you see the actual actor on a
39:38talk show and when they do it,
39:40you don't get that spectacle. So, I try
39:43and control the spectacle and the
39:46spectacle is this bag. It's just like a
39:48puppet. It's Kermit the Frog.
39:50And if if I can control that and I
39:52direct attention towards the bag, then
39:55hopefully I can just live that
39:58quiet life.
39:59And I've started like
40:01>> [snorts]
40:03>> I'm really trying to navigate
40:07in this job that I do
40:09being artistic. So, what I've started to
40:12do now is
40:14you know, doing One of the things that
40:15drew me to this interview, too, is
40:18I like I don't have to make eye contact.
40:20I'm a lot It is socially acceptable in
40:22this context for me to look up at the
40:25ceiling or to look into that camera.
40:27And this is wonderful for me because
40:31another person's facial expressions
40:33after about 20 minutes can be a bit like
40:36the clothing.
40:37>> Right.
40:37>> It's not
40:40it's not an antisocial thing, it's just
40:42that gleaming the information of emotion
40:45from another person's face is an extra
40:48cognitive load, and that is then
40:50distracting me from my thoughts as an
40:52artistic person. Whereas people who are
40:54not autistic, it's instinctual. They
40:56don't have to think about it.
40:57>> Yeah.
40:58>> So, this is wonderful.
41:00>> I'm just so glad.
41:02>> But I keep thinking about like
41:04I could never get an answer as to
41:07why Sigmund Freud was would do
41:10this as as part of the
41:13to have the person looking at the air
41:15cuz I actually trained to be a
41:16psychotherapist when I was younger for
41:18about three or four years.
41:19And that was another part of my autism
41:21diagnosis. When I got diagnosed in my
41:2330s,
41:24the person told me, "You know, a lot of
41:26high-functioning autistic people can
41:28drift towards psychology."
41:30>> Right. Yeah, that makes sense.
41:32>> cuz I told him I said, "When I first
41:34discovered psychology and psychotherapy,
41:37it felt like someone had shown me the
41:38manual to be a human being."
41:40>> Yeah.
41:41>> When I learned about cognitive
41:43behavioral therapy, when I learned about
41:44the unconscious mind, it's like, "Here's
41:47the manual. Now you can figure things
41:49out." And apparently that's
41:50interpretation and latching onto it as a
41:53manual is quite uniquely autistic. And
41:56what I used to love was
41:58when I trained to be a psychotherapist,
42:01I would learn It was the Carl Rogers
42:03stuff.
42:05Unconditional positive regard,
42:07empathy, and congruence, and being
42:10taught active listening.
42:13Learning the skill
42:15of listening to another human being,
42:17reading their body language, so that
42:19hopefully I could become an effective
42:21therapist for this person.
42:23But a lot of my motivators for it were
42:26here's a little handbook on how to be
42:27human.
42:29Here's the handbook. Because before that
42:32I wouldn't make eye contact. I'd talk
42:34over people. I would monologue on facts.
42:38Do you know what I mean?
42:39>> Yeah.
42:39>> So
42:41I often wonder about
42:44if your great granddad was in the room,
42:45do you know what I'd ask him?
42:46>> Yeah, I'd love to know.
42:48>> I'd say
42:50this feels like after sex talk.
42:53>> [laughter]
42:53>> Do you know what I mean? And every time
42:55I was looking at your podcasts
42:57and I saw the people lying down, the
43:00visual reference is when I'm looking at
43:03a movie and people are talking when
43:05they've just had sex.
43:06>> Mhm.
43:06>> And after
43:09sex and intimacy
43:13that physical vulnerability can leech
43:15into an emotional vulnerability where
43:17people, even two people having a
43:18one-night stand can have this honesty.
43:21>> Yeah.
43:22>> And I often wonder about thinking back
43:24to Freud
43:26was that an awareness of his?
43:28Is he hoping
43:31if I can get these people to lie down
43:33then I'll get that
43:37little 15 minutes after they they're
43:38nervous, they've just ejaculated,
43:40they're just their nervous system is
43:42confident enough where they will tell me
43:44about their childhood.
43:45>> I think that's a brilliant I've never
43:48heard anyone
43:49>> [ __ ] off.
43:50>> I promise it's a brilliant but you're
43:52absolutely spot on cuz
43:54>> And he said the Irish couldn't be
43:55psychoanalyzed.
43:56>> [laughter]
43:57[gasps]
43:57>> It's that moment of freedom, isn't it?
43:59Suddenly you can say things that
44:02wouldn't have literally occurred in your
44:03system. Mhm. And uh
44:07>> And people one-night stands in
44:08particular, I find very interesting in
44:10that respect.
44:13I mean, Jesus, if you could put up a
44:14camera somewhere,
44:16the things that two strangers would say
44:19to each other
44:20lying back supine
44:22after sex,
44:24knowing they're never going to meet each
44:25other again.
44:26>> Yeah.
44:27>> Mhm. It would It would nearly have to be
44:28pre-social media.
44:31Because that introduces an exposure, but
44:33I guarantee you there are people
44:35and in the safety of that
44:37post-ejaculation release, they'd tell
44:40someone a deep secret about themselves
44:42and then disappear into the mist.
44:43>> Mhm.
44:45>> Um the other thing about this
44:47position is
44:49I sometimes I get sleep paralysis, which
44:51is no crack.
44:53And if you are subject to to If you've
44:55ever gotten sleep paralysis?
44:56>> No, what what I've heard of it, but what
44:58does it actually mean?
44:59>> people get it. It's just
45:03when you go to sleep,
45:05your brain shuts off your muscles.
45:07>> Oh, right.
45:08>> And I I think the very simple
45:10explanation is, you know, if you're
45:12running in your dream, it's so that your
45:15body doesn't start running and wake you
45:16up. So, your brain shuts off the
45:18muscles.
45:19But sometimes, you can wake up
45:22and you are fully conscious in the room,
45:24but that hasn't clicked in. So, you are
45:26paralyzed.
45:28And sometimes when you're paralyzed, you
45:29can also experience hallucinations. So,
45:33you see it within folklore,
45:35the hag sitting on the chest. That's the
45:37sleep paralysis demon. And then
45:39culturally, that changed into alien
45:41abductions. A lot of people who
45:43experience alien abductions, it is the
45:45sleep paralysis.
45:46>> god.
45:46>> But if if you're susceptible to sleep
45:48paralysis,
45:50you're kind of advised don't sleep on
45:51your back cuz that's when it happens.
45:53So, I don't sleep on my back for that
45:54reason. Cuz it's no crack. I
45:57deeply dislike sleep paralysis,
45:59especially waking up wanting to scream
46:00and I can't.
46:01>> God. Cuz I've had dreams where I haven't
46:04been able to scream. But, do you kind of
46:07get a hunch of like, "Oh, no, I think it
46:09might happen tonight." Or, is it just
46:10completely arbitrary?
46:11>> Um
46:13if I sleep on my back, the thing is with
46:16sleep paralysis, I don't think it's
46:18trauma related, but there is another
46:20thing.
46:22I don't even think this has
46:24a name, but
46:27my dad died when I was about 19.
46:29>> Yeah.
46:29>> And it was
46:33deeply traumatic, but the trauma of it
46:35is
46:36I wasn't ready.
46:38I
46:40Even though I was 19, I was I was quite
46:42immature. I would have been about 15
46:43emotionally, 14.
46:45And I was not ready for my dad to die.
46:47And he got a brain tumor, and he died
46:49suddenly. He died within within about 4
46:51weeks.
46:52>> God.
46:52>> And
46:54I remember getting dreams around then.
46:56>> Mhm.
46:57>> Which
46:59it was a form of sleep paralysis
47:02where the level of stress in my body was
47:03so much that I would wake up in a type
47:06of abstract hell.
47:09>> God.
47:11>> Some people listening to this might
47:12relate. It's It's an incredibly stressed
47:15waking dream state where the eyes
47:19haven't switched on.
47:20And I'm living in a world of shapes and
47:23experiencing hell.
47:24And it only happened around the time my
47:26dad died. But,
47:28it's just nervous system stress, trauma,
47:32and then the complications of sleep and
47:34waking up.
47:35But, that was That was hell because
47:39I think I was living in like a floating
47:41triangle or something. I know this is
47:43mad [ __ ] but just the brain is mad.
47:45>> Mhm. Yeah.
47:47My god, I suppose something has to
47:49happen. And
47:53it's such a I mean, shock is such a
47:55bizarre thing. The kind of things that
47:57happened.
47:58You said something really interesting
48:00about um
48:02about, you know, talking about autism
48:05and
48:06and anxiety, and then you said
48:09part of the problem with the mental
48:10health conversation is it's treated in a
48:13very solemn fashion.
48:15>> Mhm.
48:15>> And I wondered, what's the solemnity in
48:18What would you change about it?
48:22>> So, I have a huge problem with
48:23solemnity.
48:25Um
48:27I don't think we speak about it enough.
48:29Um
48:32Solemnity
48:34is the performance of seriousness.
48:38There's very rarely any need for
48:41solemnity.
48:41>> Mhm.
48:44>> It's
48:45>> That's so interesting. That's
48:47>> I feel like Well, where you see
48:48solemnity the most
48:51you see it in the military. Military's a
48:53very solemn space. It's the performance
48:56of seriousness. There is no room for
48:57laughter in the military.
49:00You see it in royalty.
49:03Like solemnity always exists to to
49:05highlight Oh, sorry, to to mask a
49:08fundamental absurdity.
49:09>> Mhm.
49:11>> Royalty, like royalty is [ __ ]
49:14fundamentally absurd.
49:16Like if if you like
49:18I'm a king. Why?
49:20Because a thousand years ago
49:22my ancestor was profoundly violent and
49:26beat the living [ __ ] out of everyone in
49:28the in in this in a neighborhood and
49:30killed people. And then we took it over
49:32and we put on silly hats and cloaks and
49:34performed rituals of legitimacy until
49:37they started to feel legitimate.
49:39Royalty uses solemnity like a magical
49:44ritual to will into existence authority.
49:48And then when you bring humor into it,
49:50humor isn't allowed cuz when humor comes
49:53into solemnity, they fight with each
49:55other and it exposes the absurdity.
49:57Another place where there's a lot of
49:59solemnity is the fine art world.
50:01It's a huge thing.
50:03You walk into a gallery space and
50:07it's as silent as a church.
50:10And often laughter isn't permitted.
50:13And a lot of people walk around fine art
50:16galleries
50:17with the fear
50:19and the terror that the person beside
50:21them is going to think that they don't
50:23understand that art on the wall.
50:25And the
50:27language of fine art, cuz I I know this
50:30I I I studied
50:32uh fine art when I was in college. It's
50:33taught at It's what I thought I was
50:34going to do. I did did a master's in it.
50:37And we were trained in
50:40statements of intent, how to use
50:43deliberately inaccessible language to
50:45describe your work. Now, sometimes it's
50:47appropriate,
50:49but other times it's just used as
50:50bollocks to make a piece of work seem
50:53far more important than it is. And that
50:55has a hell of a lot more to do with
50:57capitalism than has to do with art.
50:59>> Right.
51:00>> So, that is the solemnity within art.
51:03>> Mhm.
51:04>> And
51:05it's an issue I have myself because I'm
51:07a serious writer. I write literature.
51:10But I'm [ __ ] bag on my head. I look
51:11like a clown.
51:13And
51:15I this bag, I'm proud of that. I'm proud
51:19to reject the solemnity.
51:22And back home in Ireland, I could be
51:24brought onto a talk show.
51:26And I speak about mental health. I'll
51:27speak about something very serious like
51:30autism, depression, even suicide.
51:32And some people will get very offended
51:34and say, "How can he speak about these
51:36things with a plastic bag on his head?
51:38Take that bag off. This is so
51:40disrespectful." And what I say to that
51:42is
51:44you're not asking me to be serious.
51:46You're asking me to be solemn.
51:48And I refuse to be solemn because
51:50solemnity is a [ __ ] performance.
51:53I can be deeply curious, deeply
51:55passionate, deeply respectful about
51:57something while still being silly.
52:00>> Yeah.
52:00>> While still using humor.
52:02>> Yeah.
52:02>> Humor is an essential part of the human
52:04condition.
52:07People in terrible situations will
52:10always find laughter in order to order
52:12to navigate those situations.
52:14Um
52:17One of my favorite books about this is
52:20uh [ __ ] Victor Frankl's book. You
52:22don't know the name of it, do you?
52:24>> in
52:25something a man's meaning or something
52:27in
52:27>> Man's search for meaning by Victor
52:28Frankl.
52:29>> And it's a short book. You'd read it in
52:31an afternoon, but Frankl was I think
52:34logotherapy.
52:36He was in um I think it was Auschwitz.
52:40But Frankl speaks about even though
52:45he was in a concentration camp
52:47experiencing the worst
52:49dehumanization
52:51genocide
52:52and still found meaning and purpose
52:56within that.
52:57And he speaks about the gallows humor,
53:01the use of humor in order to find
53:03meaning in a terrible situation.
53:06>> Didn't he have some sort of do some sort
53:08of
53:09philosophy class or something when he
53:11was in I was reading a comic book about
53:13existentialism.
53:15>> Mhm.
53:15>> I'm sure it talked about I think it was
53:18him doing a
53:19a sort of symposium in the camp when
53:23about suicide or or death or something.
53:26I mean, it's so extreme and so
53:28>> It's so extreme
53:29>> and bleak, but something to
53:32do to not think about what's going to
53:35happen next and use your
53:38capacity as a human
53:40>> His thing was all about even though he
53:43was in the concentration camp to still
53:45find meaning and purpose.
53:46>> Yeah. Yeah.
53:47>> And to never give up even when he knows
53:51that he's going to be exterminated. He
53:52knew he was going to die, but still
53:54found on a daily basis some search for
53:57meaning and that allowed him to survive
54:00through it as opposed to the alternative
54:02of just giving up.
54:03>> Yeah.
54:04>> And
54:05he survived the concentration camp, but
54:07from that
54:10he spoke about the importance of
54:13humor. Humor is part of the human
54:15experience and even when
54:20a situation is painful, there's still
54:22room for humor and for that to be
54:24respectful.
54:24>> Yeah.
54:25>> Solemnity is bollocks.
54:27Solemnity is it keeps us from our true
54:31emotions.
54:32>> Mhm.
54:32>> The most solemn thing
54:35is
54:37like we're great with funerals in
54:38Ireland. We're very, very good with
54:40grief. When we look at our place within
54:42the international community
54:44but still you go to an Irish funeral
54:47and
54:49your friend of 20 years can be
54:53one of the bereaved people. I had this
54:55experience. Look, when my father died
54:56when my father died
54:58and
55:00I'm in the front row with my family. So,
55:02it's when you're at a funeral and you
55:04are the family, the bereaved.
55:06One of the most hurtful things of the
55:08entire funeral
55:10one of the loneliest feelings
55:12was
55:14when everybody queues up
55:16to pay their respects at the end of the
55:18funeral.
55:20All of my friends, people who I'm
55:23intimate with, people who I have fun
55:25with, who I hug
55:27they couldn't make eye contact with me
55:28and they had to just shake my hand and
55:30say sorry for your troubles. Sorry for
55:31your troubles. Mom would say sorry for
55:33your troubles and then they moved on.
55:35And that is solemnity.
55:37>> Yeah.
55:37>> They were afraid of emotion.
55:40You're afraid of your own emotions and
55:42you're afraid of the other person's
55:44grief.
55:46When I was training to be a a therapist,
55:50we had a lot of discourse about the box
55:52of tissues, you know?
55:53>> Yeah.
55:54>> And
55:55learning about what a box of tissue box
55:58of tissues means,
56:00one of the most useful things that that
56:02I for my own personal growth was when I
56:04was training to be a therapist we we do
56:06groups and they were Gestalt Gestalt uh
56:08psychology groups. So, it was really
56:11about feeling your emotions and being
56:12present with another person's emotions.
56:14And I was like 22
56:16and I would have to sit across from
56:18another person in the group, someone in
56:20their 50s or 60s who to me at 22, that's
56:25an untouchable level of adult, you know?
56:27I'm just a tiny little kid and that is
56:28an adult. But I
56:30sat across from people who weeped like
56:32babies
56:34because trauma is coming up.
56:36>> Yeah.
56:36>> And I had to learn to sit with that
56:38person's tears.
56:40And that's when I learned about the role
56:42of tissues.
56:44We reach for tissues.
56:46We tell ourselves, "I'm trying to help
56:48this person.
56:49>> Mhm.
56:50>> I'm trying to they're weeping."
56:52It's very rarely about helping the other
56:53person. We're trying to distract
56:55ourselves from how uncomfortable we are
56:57with their emotions.
56:58>> Yeah. And you're
57:00right about
57:00>> tissues are. And tissues are very
57:02solemn.
57:04So, I learned first to sit with another
57:05adult's tears so that I could sit with
57:08mine.
57:08>> Yeah.
57:09>> You know?
57:09>> Yeah.
57:10>> Um
57:12So, [ __ ] solemnity. It's [ __ ] It
57:15serves pomposity. That's all it does.
57:17And the other thing about solemnity,
57:20the performance of seriousness, it is
57:22what politicians use to lie to us.
57:24>> Yeah. Absolutely.
57:25>> politician can wear the suit, seem very
57:28serious, they can lie through their
57:30[ __ ] teeth.
57:31>> Mhm.
57:32>> You know, and we take it hook, line, and
57:35sinker cuz this person is performing
57:37seriousness well enough, you know?
57:40>> Yeah. No, I can totally agree. Cuz I
57:44wanted it In your short story, the Cat
57:46Piss Astronaut
57:48>> [laughter]
57:48[gasps]
57:49>> and you say that's 90% autobiographical,
57:53that particular story, and you describe
57:55being brutally attacked as a 4-year-old
57:58child by an adult woman after you
58:00explained to her and her young daughter
58:03that one day the sun was going to expand
58:05and it would engulf us all.
58:08And did you become hyper aware
58:11of what adults were capable from that
58:14attack on you as a tiny child by a grown
58:16adult?
58:19>> So, that story, yeah, it's it's
58:21So, two things with that that that the
58:23writing of that story
58:26is an example of bringing inner child
58:29work into my creative process.
58:32I wrote that story as
58:35>> [snorts]
58:36>> a journal to really
58:40It's one of those memories that I'd
58:41forgotten about. And when you forget
58:43about the bad [ __ ] you know, your brain
58:45was protecting you from that memory.
58:48And [snorts]
58:50when I was four or five, you know,
58:52deep curiosity about everything. I
58:54taught myself how to read from
58:57encyclopedias, adult encyclopedias,
58:59because
59:01the adults around me, my
59:02>> [snorts]
59:03>> parents, my brothers,
59:06they kind of had to stop answering my
59:08questions, and they just said, "Look,
59:10you're asking so many questions now that
59:12we're going to these encyclopedias to
59:14give you the answers.
59:16So, this is how you use an encyclopedia.
59:19That's D, that's F, that's E." And they
59:21were the word books.
59:22And they became my life at about four or
59:25five, and I very quickly
59:28learned how to read. I mean, my mother
59:30would have showed me uh phonetics, but I
59:33the need for knowledge was so much that
59:35I was reading out of encyclopedias at at
59:37four or five.
59:38And I became obsessed with dinosaurs and
59:41the solar system.
59:42>> Mhm.
59:43>> And
59:45what I became particularly obsessed
59:46about was the idea that
59:49the sun one day is going to expand and
59:52engulf everything.
59:54And we know all of this. This is a fact.
59:58The sun is just a star like any other.
1:00:00And everything will one day end.
1:00:03And I found a comfort in that. Cuz I
1:00:05used to get anxiety about the idea of
1:00:07eternity.
1:00:08>> Right.
1:00:08>> You got to realize, too, I had a a an
1:00:10enforced Catholic education. You know,
1:00:12there was no choice in Ireland. So, when
1:00:14I was 4 years of age,
1:00:16I'm also navigating the terror of going
1:00:19into school and there's a 6-ft statue of
1:00:21someone nailed to a cross.
1:00:23I didn't grow up with religion in my
1:00:24house.
1:00:26>> Really?
1:00:26>> Yeah, like my my dad was a communist. He
1:00:28didn't give a [ __ ] about that stuff.
1:00:30So, I get to school, and all of a
1:00:32sudden, that fellow's called Christ.
1:00:35He's nailed to the cross. He loves you.
1:00:38Who the [ __ ] is he? Who's this [ __ ]
1:00:41>> [laughter]
1:00:41>> And then when you're 7, you're going to
1:00:42drink his blood and eat his body.
1:00:44[ __ ] off.
1:00:46Like that was it.
1:00:47And this was big information for me. And
1:00:50then I'm going home to my parents going,
1:00:52"I'm supposed to eat this cunt's blood.
1:00:53Is that real?" And they're going, "No,
1:00:54no, that's not real, Lucky. We we have
1:00:56to do this so you can go to school." And
1:00:58I couldn't parse.
1:01:01Here's this science I'm learning about
1:01:02the solar system. And then I'm I I have
1:01:05to eat the blood and body of an Iron Age
1:01:07carpenter when I'm 7?
1:01:09And those two things didn't bode well.
1:01:13And also, I hated the idea of the
1:01:15eternity of heaven.
1:01:17>> Mhm.
1:01:17>> It just seemed like, "Ah, for [ __ ]
1:01:19sake. Is it ever going to end?" And I
1:01:21used to it to the nuns, "You mean
1:01:23forever?" And she'd say, "But don't
1:01:25worry, God loves children. You're going
1:01:27to go there forever and ever." But
1:01:29when's it going to stop? When's it going
1:01:30to end?
1:01:31And I know what my anxiety there was at
1:01:34four.
1:01:36I [ __ ] hated school. I vomited so
1:01:39much on my first day of school I had to
1:01:40be brought home because I couldn't
1:01:42handle being around people.
1:01:44And I couldn't wait for that bell
1:01:47to go so that I could return home
1:01:49and get into my comfy clothes and listen
1:01:52to Marc Bolan was my thing.
1:01:55That was my thing when I was that age.
1:01:56Ironically,
1:01:58my first ever album that I purchased was
1:02:01on tape. It was Marc Bolan T. Rex
1:02:03Greatest Hits. I bought it when I was 4
1:02:04years of age.
1:02:05I purchased that with Remember my uncle
1:02:08earlier, Noel, who had the 10p?
1:02:10One day, Noel didn't have the 10p.
1:02:13And I've got the hands out like
1:02:15communion going, "Where's the [ __ ]
1:02:1610p, Noel?"
1:02:17And he reaches around his pocket and he
1:02:19has to begrudgingly give me £5, which
1:02:21was way too much money for a 4-year-old.
1:02:23So, Noel gave me £5 and my brothers took
1:02:25me into town and I bought T. Rex on
1:02:28tape.
1:02:29My god, changed my life.
1:02:31But I would want to get home from school
1:02:33when that bell rang to go home and
1:02:34listen to T. Rex. And when the nuns
1:02:36would explain to me the the eternity of
1:02:39heaven,
1:02:40I used to get a pain in my belly cuz
1:02:42it's like, "When's the bell going to go
1:02:44off?" That sounds awful.
1:02:47I want it to end. So, I used to get
1:02:49great comfort in the idea of that
1:02:51[ __ ] sun, though.
1:02:53That sun's going to burn and expand and
1:02:55everything's going to end. So, the sun
1:02:56became the great school bell in the sky.
1:02:59>> [clears throat]
1:03:00>> But anyway, one day I go to a [ __ ]
1:03:02playground around the corner from my
1:03:03house
1:03:05and
1:03:07all I [snorts] want to talk about is the
1:03:08planets.
1:03:09And I used to love seeing an adult
1:03:13because adults would be more receptive
1:03:15to facts about the planets than other
1:03:18little children were.
1:03:19>> [clears throat]
1:03:19>> Other little kids were not into the
1:03:21planets. They were into their own kid
1:03:22[ __ ] I'm into the planets.
1:03:24So, there was a little girl on a swing
1:03:26with her ma.
1:03:27And
1:03:28I went over talking about Venus, talking
1:03:30about Jupiter.
1:03:32And then I went talking about, you know,
1:03:35the sun's going to [ __ ] I wasn't
1:03:36saying [ __ ] at four, but the sun is
1:03:38going to expand and everything's going
1:03:39to end.
1:03:40And the little girl on the swing said,
1:03:42"Mommy, is that true?" to her mother.
1:03:45And the mother was getting annoyed and
1:03:47said, "No, that's not true." And then I
1:03:49went ape [ __ ] "Yes, it is true. It's in
1:03:51the encyclopedias. The sun's going to
1:03:53expand."
1:03:55And I think what happened is that the
1:03:57fact, my fact about the sun expanding,
1:04:01the adult woman, who was probably in her
1:04:0340s,
1:04:04that gave her anxiety. She had never
1:04:07thought about that's going to happen.
1:04:11And before I knew it, I just remember
1:04:14she grabbed me by the hair
1:04:17and beat the living [ __ ] out of me.
1:04:19She beat me with her fists the way that
1:04:21you'd beat an adult.
1:04:23>> Wow.
1:04:24>> And I ran home
1:04:26with blood down my face.
1:04:28And
1:04:29one of the things that [ __ ] broke my
1:04:31heart is that when I went into my
1:04:32mother,
1:04:34I was obviously such a little lunatic
1:04:37that my parents wanted to know what I
1:04:39said
1:04:41rather than you've just been beaten by
1:04:43an adult. And it still makes me [ __ ]
1:04:46angry today.
1:04:47>> [clears throat]
1:04:47>> The The big problem is
1:04:50I think I know who that woman is.
1:04:53There's about three different mas.
1:04:56But the problem I I I was so young, I
1:04:58can't pinpoint it.
1:05:00I would love to go to that woman's house
1:05:03and to say to her, "Do you remember what
1:05:05you did to me
1:05:06when I was the age that I that I am
1:05:08now?"
1:05:09Because I'm that age now. I'm in my 40s.
1:05:12I cannot fathom, imagine
1:05:15even raising my voice to a tiny little
1:05:16child, let alone beating a child.
1:05:19And I would love my little bit of
1:05:20justice
1:05:22to just say to that woman,
1:05:24you were 40 when you did that.
1:05:27That was a choice that you made.
1:05:29And I'm that little boy now.
1:05:31And I just need to let you know.
1:05:34And I wouldn't ring the police, wouldn't
1:05:36do anything. I need to let you know
1:05:38I know what you did, and that was
1:05:39despicable.
1:05:40>> Yeah.
1:05:40>> And I'm standing before you as an adult,
1:05:42and there's no excuse for that behavior.
1:05:44So,
1:05:46I mean, that was a tough one for me.
1:05:49>> I mean, it's so depraved to
1:05:51>> Yeah.
1:05:51>> do that to a
1:05:52>> I didn't start remembering it until
1:05:53adulthood. I didn't start remembering
1:05:55it. Um
1:05:58I can viscerally recall the pain in my
1:06:00head of someone pulling my hair that
1:06:01hard.
1:06:03So, when I was writing that short story,
1:06:07flow state, as I spoke about earlier,
1:06:10flow state is
1:06:13a state of complete nervous system
1:06:15safety.
1:06:17It reminds me a little bit of
1:06:19um I I On my podcast, I had a guest
1:06:21called Dr. Paul Litnansky, and he is a
1:06:25pharmacologist and a psychologist in
1:06:27Australia. He was given the license in
1:06:29Australia to by the government to
1:06:33investigate LSD, MDMA as part of
1:06:36therapy.
1:06:38And he uses MDMA in particular uh
1:06:41therapy for people with extreme trauma.
1:06:44And how he described the MDMA to me was
1:06:46he said,
1:06:47"When the patient
1:06:49when the client is
1:06:52experiencing MDMA,
1:06:54they can feel a sense of safety in their
1:06:57body that they can revisit the
1:06:59incredibly traumatic memory."
1:07:01>> Right.
1:07:02>> So, in the instance he was describing to
1:07:04me, it was um a veteran of a war who had
1:07:07seen something horrendous at war.
1:07:11And while using MDMA was able to walk
1:07:14through the steps of what happened on
1:07:17that day and what he saw and for his
1:07:19nervous system to be calm and safe.
1:07:21Flow state's a bit like that for me.
1:07:23>> Yeah.
1:07:24>> When I enter flow
1:07:26and I am so unbelievably, not just safe,
1:07:29but experiencing the bliss and vitality
1:07:32of existing because I'm doing what I'm
1:07:34supposed to be doing,
1:07:36then I can go back to those childhood
1:07:38memories and I can as an adult
1:07:42hold the hand of me when I was four
1:07:45and stand back and watch in the
1:07:46playground as I was being beaten, you
1:07:48know.
1:07:49>> Cuz you have this
1:07:51I mean, it really stood out to me this
1:07:53ability like I've been reading your
1:07:56short stories in Topographia Hibernica
1:07:59and
1:08:00you describe people's casual cruelty and
1:08:04the story about the boy who tortures a
1:08:07cat and then sets it on fire and and you
1:08:10describe
1:08:11him as being curious to what will happen
1:08:13next and it's
1:08:15and you say there are bits of you in all
1:08:17these stories, but clearly there's none
1:08:20of the sadism and
1:08:21>> You know,
1:08:22>> you write this with this kind of dis
1:08:25it's almost dispassionate, but it's not.
1:08:28It's completely with compassion, but
1:08:30it's this
1:08:32I mean,
1:08:33>> That that line there, so that that would
1:08:35have been around stuff I had seen as a
1:08:37kid.
1:08:37>> Yeah, yeah. I so recognize that as well,
1:08:41this kind of
1:08:43you know, this Lord of the Flies
1:08:44behavior, but
1:08:46do you cuz do you think when you're
1:08:48writing it
1:08:50it stops it from living inside you and
1:08:53destroying you with sadness?
1:08:55>> Yeah.
1:08:56Getting things out onto the page, I
1:08:58mean, journaling is [ __ ] wonderful.
1:09:01Journaling is a wonderful thing. I mean,
1:09:03when
1:09:04negative thoughts or thoughts of shame
1:09:07or hurtful things are washing around in
1:09:09the head,
1:09:10once you get that out onto a page,
1:09:12you're staring at it. You have it there.
1:09:14You can view it
1:09:16uh in a more objective way.
1:09:18Regarding the cat torture,
1:09:20>> Mhm.
1:09:23>> you know what the like so so
1:09:26Another thing that happens when you're
1:09:27an autistic kid is when you don't do
1:09:30well in school,
1:09:32you get grouped together with other kids
1:09:34who don't do well.
1:09:35So, I would have always been thrown into
1:09:37what's called the bad class.
1:09:39>> Mhm.
1:09:39>> And within that bad class, you've got
1:09:42kids with who can't concentrate because
1:09:45of learning difficulties like myself.
1:09:47Then you have other kids who can't
1:09:48concentrate because they're undergoing
1:09:50the trauma of abuse
1:09:52or the trauma of poverty.
1:09:55And when you find yourself in that
1:09:56situation, you have to
1:09:59achieve self-esteem and status
1:10:02by being unruly. You identify with being
1:10:05unruly.
1:10:06So, I hung around with a lot of
1:10:08traumatized kids.
1:10:10And some of these traumatized kids would
1:10:13hurt animals, especially at Halloween.
1:10:16And I saw cats being thrown on
1:10:19electrical wires. They would throw the
1:10:21cats up.
1:10:22>> Yeah.
1:10:23>> And the kid who could do that
1:10:26was feared.
1:10:27He was called a mad bastard.
1:10:29And
1:10:31the curiosity line there is
1:10:35that was something that was said to me
1:10:36by the the the
1:10:38the psychologist who diagnosed me as
1:10:39being autistic. And
1:10:41what stuck out was
1:10:43some people who are autistic
1:10:45in their moments of shame can actually
1:10:48think that they're sociopaths or
1:10:49psychopaths.
1:10:50And what I'm and it's it's a common fear
1:10:52that some autistic people have.
1:10:55Because we can struggle with listening
1:10:58[snorts] to other people in
1:10:59conversations. Because we can monologue
1:11:03on topics that we're interested in.
1:11:05These are selfish behaviors. They're
1:11:07They're labeled as selfish. And then our
1:11:10moments of shame, sometimes we can
1:11:11wonder,
1:11:12[ __ ] it, am I one of these psychopaths?
1:11:15Am I someone who's lacking in empathy?
1:11:17Because I didn't
1:11:19listen to this other person today
1:11:21instead I spoke about what I was
1:11:22interested in.
1:11:24And
1:11:24>> So, you've had those kind of thoughts
1:11:26about
1:11:27>> Yeah, am I a sociopath? Am I Before my
1:11:30diagnosis, and I said it to my
1:11:32psychologist. And I said, you know what,
1:11:34times of great shame, I'd wondered this
1:11:36about myself. Am I someone lacking in
1:11:38empathy?
1:11:39And he said, this is very very common
1:11:43people who are neurodivergent. And he
1:11:45said, and this is what stuck out to me.
1:11:48He has worked with people who would be
1:11:50considered psychopathic or sociopathic.
1:11:54And he says, what stands out with those
1:11:56people is
1:11:59He's been in prisons, and there have
1:12:01been people who have done
1:12:03committed horrible acts of violence to
1:12:05other human beings and have been cruel.
1:12:08But those people are not psychopaths.
1:12:10They're traumatized or whatever.
1:12:13But he said the psychopath,
1:12:15they have a curiosity about another
1:12:17person's pain.
1:12:18>> Oh my gosh.
1:12:19>> And that hit me. Like Like this not
1:12:21unbelievable?
1:12:22>> What a chilling disgrace.
1:12:23>> Because the thing is you We've all seen
1:12:24this.
1:12:25>> Yes.
1:12:26>> We've seen that person.
1:12:28They have a curiosity about another
1:12:30person's pain, and that is just [ __ ] I
1:12:33can't relate to that.
1:12:34So, that hit me so much I decided to
1:12:36give it to that character because you
1:12:38see in in that moment in the story this
1:12:41the story
1:12:43It's called The Pistols of the
1:12:44Dandelions. And what what this story is
1:12:45about it's it's a long kind of an epic
1:12:47tale of
1:12:50It's about two stray cats. There's a bit
1:12:51of a Watership Down vibe. I was
1:12:54leaning in very heavily on a There's an
1:12:56Irish writer called Liam O'Flaherty who
1:12:58used to write around 1910, and he used
1:13:00to write a lot about nature.
1:13:02And he would write
1:13:04in the third person, but the voice that
1:13:06he would use would be the uncaring voice
1:13:08of nature.
1:13:10So, cuz nature doesn't give a [ __ ] He
1:13:12would write with that uncaring voice.
1:13:14So, I brought that in. And in the story,
1:13:17there's two boys.
1:13:19And these boys torture a cat.
1:13:22One of the boys, you can tell
1:13:25>> [snorts]
1:13:26>> doesn't like what he's doing, but he's
1:13:27going along with it.
1:13:29But then the other boy, he has the
1:13:31curiosity about that cat's pain.
1:13:33>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:13:33>> And what I'm trying to show there is one
1:13:36kid is traumatized and is going along
1:13:38with it.
1:13:40This other kid, that's something
1:13:42different. This person that they are
1:13:43curious about pain.
1:13:45>> Mhm.
1:13:45>> And I don't know what to do with those
1:13:46people cuz they're very, very
1:13:48frightening.
1:13:49>> Got it.
1:13:51It was such a shock. It was a brilliant,
1:13:53brilliant line, and I
1:13:56you know, just
1:13:58Anyway, I
1:14:00I'll never forget it cuz it's
1:14:02>> brilliant.
1:14:03>> Yeah. It's
1:14:04>> of my job is is is I have to go around
1:14:06the world like I'm sampling.
1:14:08And you got to know when you hear a line
1:14:11in a pub or whatever, and you if you're
1:14:13to be a good writer,
1:14:15you know when to sample something.
1:14:17>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:14:18>> Uh when I step in dog [ __ ] you know, I
1:14:20write it down, you know? And I sample
1:14:22it. I save it for later. I mean, one of
1:14:24the greatest things you can have as a
1:14:25writer is is
1:14:28to when you experience anything, like
1:14:30stepping in dog [ __ ] is one of them, uh
1:14:33hitting your toes, stubbing your toe,
1:14:35any of these intense moments, write down
1:14:37exactly how it feels, save it for later.
1:14:40And then when you're stuck in a story,
1:14:43>> have your character stub their toe, or
1:14:46have your character step in dog [ __ ]
1:14:49And bring in those bodily emotions. What
1:14:51I want to do is
1:14:53if I can report the bodily emotions
1:14:55strongly enough,
1:14:56>> Mhm.
1:14:57>> then I can get my reader in. And that
1:14:59reader then, if I can get them to feel
1:15:01what I'm describing and feeling in their
1:15:02body,
1:15:03>> [clears throat]
1:15:03>> then I can [ __ ] take them anywhere.
1:15:05>> Yeah.
1:15:05>> You know?
1:15:06>> That's a
1:15:07That's such a genius tip. That's I'm
1:15:10going to definitely do that now. I I uh
1:15:13>> And it's great crack because as well,
1:15:14you're journaling [clears throat]
1:15:15>> Yeah.
1:15:15>> then. And it's great around
1:15:17uncomfortable emotions.
1:15:18Write it down and go, "Not only am I
1:15:20journaling this thing and putting it
1:15:22down to paper, and being a
1:15:23>> [snorts]
1:15:24>> What also when you're
1:15:25When I write this stuff,
1:15:27I have to be so honest that
1:15:31I may need to throw it in the bin and
1:15:32burn it. You know that way?
1:15:34>> Mhm.
1:15:34>> When it comes to effective journaling,
1:15:37if you're [ __ ] lying, forget about
1:15:39it.
1:15:39>> Yeah.
1:15:40>> There's no one to protect you. You have
1:15:42to be as honest and as raw as possible.
1:15:44And to be able to say things like,
1:15:46"I am insecure. I'm jealous of other
1:15:49people. I feel small. I feel pathetic."
1:15:52These are the things we don't like
1:15:54saying out loud. These are the things
1:15:56where where other unhelpful emotions
1:15:58step in to protect us from it.
1:16:00But caught the
1:16:02The thing about shame, I was speaking
1:16:04about shame earlier.
1:16:06This sudden contraction of self
1:16:08and this global evaluation of ourselves
1:16:11as being worthless.
1:16:12>> Mhm.
1:16:13>> The beauty of shame, it's [ __ ]
1:16:16bollocks.
1:16:17>> Yeah.
1:16:17>> It's [ __ ]
1:16:19It is a piece of fiction that we have
1:16:21written about ourselves.
1:16:24There's no such thing as worthless. We
1:16:26are all wonderful human beings.
1:16:29I am better than nobody else. Nobody
1:16:31else is better than me because I am a
1:16:32human being, and human beings are too
1:16:34complex to evaluate against each other.
1:16:37We all have this intrinsic worth.
1:16:40We're all born into the world as the
1:16:42most magnificent, beautiful little
1:16:44babies. That never leaves us. We just
1:16:46get older. That's our [ __ ] intrinsic
1:16:48worth. Shame can't take nothing takes
1:16:51that away. It's forever. It's permanent.
1:16:53It's the weather. Do you know what I
1:16:55mean? Yeah. So, shame is bollocks.
1:16:58>> Well, I was when I was reading I'll give
1:17:00you Barcelona I was thinking
1:17:02>> [laughter]
1:17:03>> you're able to give language to the
1:17:05deepest and most private feelings that
1:17:08are hard to acknowledge as actual
1:17:09thoughts.
1:17:11And um in that story you write about Alf
1:17:14the sort of alpha male codes and how
1:17:16delicate the balance is and you I I mean
1:17:19it's
1:17:20a masterpiece that story. [laughter]
1:17:22>> Your great grand I was very present in
1:17:24that story and I'll tell you why. So,
1:17:26that story I'll give you Barcelona
1:17:29that's 10,000 words about one man biting
1:17:31another man's ass, right? Um but what
1:17:35what the story if if first off the
1:17:37reason I would begin a story like that
1:17:39is
1:17:41as I mentioned earlier the hardest thing
1:17:43about writing is the fear of failure.
1:17:45The fear of what if I fail. So, if I'm
1:17:48afraid of failure I actively try to
1:17:50fail.
1:17:51If I try to fail then I can begin to
1:17:53play. So, how I try to fail is
1:17:57fear of failure is what if what I'm
1:18:00going to write is going to be [ __ ]
1:18:01>> Mhm. What if it's not good enough?
1:18:03>> Well, let's [ __ ] start with [ __ ]
1:18:05Let's start with some [ __ ] So, what I
1:18:07started with was
1:18:09I let's start with a terrible idea.
1:18:12I go to a gym and something I noticed
1:18:15about in this gym was
1:18:18performative male nudity. So, I'm going
1:18:21to the changing room and I first off I
1:18:24[ __ ] love going to the gym. I go I
1:18:25love going to the gym because it's a
1:18:26neurodivergent friendly space. I can
1:18:29wear headphones and small talk is
1:18:31frowned upon and I get to be around
1:18:33people but not have to speak to people
1:18:34and I love that. I love being around
1:18:36people, watching people. It's just the
1:18:38small talk that freaks me out. So, what
1:18:41I noticed was
1:18:43all the men in the changing rooms,
1:18:46you had to be naked.
1:18:48If you wore your towel for a bit of
1:18:50modesty, or God forbid a pair of shorts,
1:18:54it was not popular within the room. You
1:18:56would get looked at. Other men would be
1:18:58uncomfortable. And if those two men were
1:19:00friends, they would scream at each other
1:19:02and make fun of each other.
1:19:03And what it is is
1:19:07they're trying to be so heterosexual
1:19:09that they also they almost become gay.
1:19:11>> Yes. [laughter]
1:19:11>> It It's
1:19:13>> Martin Amis, I remember him writing, "Is
1:19:15it gay to have sex with a woman?"
1:19:18>> Yeah, it's it it almost gets to that
1:19:20point. It gets to that point. So, what
1:19:22these men did the the the the male rule
1:19:24in this changing room was,
1:19:27"Why are you wearing a towel over your
1:19:28dick?
1:19:30Do you think I want to look at it?
1:19:33Take it out so I can ignore it."
1:19:36And that's what it is. Take out your
1:19:38dick so I can ignore it. Because if
1:19:40you're hiding it, then you're accusing
1:19:42me of wanting to see it. So, I need to
1:19:44see it now.
1:19:45And And that's what you're dealing with.
1:19:47So,
1:19:48>> [gasps]
1:19:48>> So, the rule is for everyone's in the
1:19:50nip. Everyone's nude. Fine. Dicks out.
1:19:52No problem. But now that everyone is
1:19:54naked,
1:19:56how do you have hierarchy?
1:19:58So, other men would start to try and
1:20:00out-alpha each other by being more naked
1:20:03than the guy beside him. And the way
1:20:05that they would perform their nudity
1:20:07would be
1:20:08literally standing right there and and
1:20:10bending over and pointing their anus at
1:20:12your face as they towel their balls.
1:20:14You know what I mean? Or talking about
1:20:16how they just swinging things around.
1:20:18So, it's a performative nudity.
1:20:21I'm I'm as more naked than naked can be.
1:20:24And I noticed this was a thing. This was
1:20:26an
1:20:26a hidden language. And I was fascinated
1:20:28by it. And then one day I go into the
1:20:30shower. And the shower was this
1:20:32room.
1:20:33And it was a Monday morning, so the
1:20:35night before it was all bouncers. They
1:20:38had been working in the nightclubs the
1:20:40night before, so
1:20:41big, strong, 6-ft [ __ ] 4, big,
1:20:44muscular men naked washing themselves.
1:20:47And I'm in the shower with all of them
1:20:49just going, "Okay, we're all in the nip.
1:20:50We're all washing. Grand."
1:20:52No modesty, nothing. Just [ __ ] wash
1:20:53yourself.
1:20:54But then walks in
1:20:57this dude in his 50s who was He's about
1:21:0155. He was about 5
1:21:034-ft 9. Very short.
1:21:06Full of muscles, old-school muscle.
1:21:09He was mahogany brown with that fake tan
1:21:12that bodybuilders have on.
1:21:14And this dude was a Limerick mid-50s
1:21:18[ __ ] bodybuilder. The type man who
1:21:19doesn't He's so masculine, he won't even
1:21:21take protein shakes. He eats chickens.
1:21:24And he walked into the shower, shorter
1:21:27than all these huge bouncers.
1:21:30And then what he did next [ __ ] amazed
1:21:31me.
1:21:32He went to the shower
1:21:35and then produced a blue razor
1:21:38and bent over with his anus his cheeks
1:21:41parted his cheeks parted anus pointed at
1:21:43every man in the shower and began
1:21:46shaving his [ __ ] rectum at people.
1:21:49And all the larger men got so
1:21:52uncomfortable that they just went
1:21:54and turned around. And in that moment, I
1:21:56didn't turn around cuz I'm autistic. I
1:21:57don't get [ __ ] social cue. I stared
1:21:59at his rectum
1:22:01and said,
1:22:03"That's the silverback."
1:22:04He just alpha-maled all these other men
1:22:07by pointing his anus at them. And I was
1:22:10thinking, "What the He made a choice
1:22:12there." Like, fair enough, he had to
1:22:14shave his arse because he's a
1:22:15bodybuilder. They put the tan on. They
1:22:16don't have hair. But he made a choice to
1:22:19shave his anus at us.
1:22:22Because if he'd have pointed his arse to
1:22:24the wall,
1:22:25that would have made his anus a sight of
1:22:27shame.
1:22:28He can't be the alpha male and be
1:22:30ashamed of his [ __ ] So we had to
1:22:32show [sighs] us.
1:22:33But that story that I wrote about him
1:22:37The story opens with
1:22:39Sometimes I have a dream about wrapping
1:22:41all the skin around my body. Sometimes I
1:22:43have a dream about taking all the skin
1:22:45off off my body and wrapping it around a
1:22:47dog.
1:22:49And the dog stares at a meat version of
1:22:51me and terrorizes a lot of people in a
1:22:53supermarket.
1:22:54And I stare at the dog who has my skin
1:22:57over its body.
1:22:59And I'm not afraid. I want to [ __ ] that
1:23:01dog's mouth.
1:23:03And that's how that story opens.
1:23:05And that was the first line I wrote and
1:23:08the reason I wrote it
1:23:10I was thinking about Freud.
1:23:13When that man shaved his anus at us
1:23:17I just wondered about his internality.
1:23:20And I said to myself, I wonder what
1:23:22dreams he has.
1:23:24What's that man's dreams that he needs
1:23:26to walk into the shower and shave his
1:23:28anus at other men so they think he's
1:23:29more powerful. This is so [ __ ] up.
1:23:33What are his dreams? Because I do view I
1:23:36view people
1:23:39I view people like that as
1:23:42They would not have a very rich internal
1:23:45dialogue or a rich [clears throat]
1:23:46internal dialogue around their own
1:23:48emotions. And when we [snorts] don't
1:23:51have rich internal dialogue with our
1:23:53emotions it can express itself in quite
1:23:55strange behavior.
1:23:58>> [sighs]
1:23:58>> Well, it was a stroke of genius. I mean
1:24:01that story. God, what a masterpiece. And
1:24:04cuz I also noticed that when you write
1:24:06about women, even female cats, you seem
1:24:10to have this uncanny understanding and
1:24:12sympathy for what it's like to be a
1:24:15woman. I wondered where that comes from.
1:24:19>> Ah, [snorts] God, I it sounds so [ __ ]
1:24:22cliche, but it comes from
1:24:25listening to to women's experiences and
1:24:29recognizing and confronting my own
1:24:32[ __ ] misogyny.
1:24:34Um
1:24:38I mean, I was raised I'm I'm a man. I'm
1:24:42identify as a man. I'm a cis man.
1:24:46I never had to think about a challenge
1:24:48any of the things that come incredibly
1:24:51easy to me because I am a man.
1:24:53>> Mhm.
1:24:54>> I was I'd say
1:24:57in my late 20s.
1:25:00It would have been around the Me Too
1:25:01era.
1:25:03And then listening to
1:25:05with the female entertainers in my field
1:25:08>> Mhm.
1:25:08>> speaking about experiences of sexual
1:25:10assault and things like that. And then
1:25:12me suddenly being confronted with I've
1:25:14never even [ __ ] thought about that.
1:25:16>> Yeah.
1:25:16>> Or one thing that really hit me was
1:25:21like my my early career in my early 20s
1:25:24as an as a an artist as a performer.
1:25:27And when you're starting off as a
1:25:28creative person and you go from being
1:25:31some person on the internet or whatever
1:25:33to becoming recognized, what happens is
1:25:38people with influence and power will
1:25:40step up, usually men.
1:25:42>> Mhm.
1:25:43>> And they will offer you opportunities.
1:25:45So, in my early career, it could have
1:25:46been
1:25:48someone running gigs, a comedy promoter,
1:25:50an agent. They step in and they go, "I
1:25:53like what you're doing, kid. I'm going
1:25:55to give you a shot."
1:25:56>> Yeah.
1:25:58>> As a man,
1:26:00I never have to doubt that.
1:26:02This other dude is interested in me cuz
1:26:05I'm talented.
1:26:06>> Yeah.
1:26:06>> And that's it.
1:26:09It was only until I got to my late 20s
1:26:11and listening to female entertainers
1:26:14where they're like, "No, I had to wonder
1:26:17whether or not he wanted to [ __ ] me.
1:26:19>> Yeah.
1:26:20>> And then what that does to am I talented
1:26:23or is this person attracted to me and
1:26:25they're trying to entrap me or am I
1:26:27going to have to trade something off or
1:26:28is this there this other expectation?
1:26:31And
1:26:32what hit me was
1:26:35I'd say I was I I I had gotten to my
1:26:37late 20s
1:26:39and had only ever even considered or
1:26:42thought about that when I heard women
1:26:44speaking about it.
1:26:47And then I said that's misogyny.
1:26:49That right there is I've never had to
1:26:52think about that.
1:26:53>> Mhm.
1:26:54>> So
1:26:56that and I suppose Twitter was fantastic
1:26:59of just recognizing
1:27:01of course I'm [ __ ] sexist. Of course
1:27:03I'm a misogynist.
1:27:05This is society is this way. I've
1:27:09benefited benefited from it. It's told
1:27:11me that it's okay.
1:27:13Now let's start actually doing the work
1:27:15of trying to see it in myself
1:27:17and be okay with being wrong and
1:27:19learning. And the same with [ __ ]
1:27:21racism, too, you know? It's like I was
1:27:24saying and and I'm confronted now
1:27:26[ __ ] ableism.
1:27:28I grew up being ableist, labeling people
1:27:31with disabilities as as having slurs,
1:27:33using the R word to describe them.
1:27:36Thinking that's
1:27:38thinking shitty things about autistic
1:27:40people and now I find out I am an
1:27:41autistic person and a lot of the
1:27:43struggle is shame that is exists because
1:27:48of ableism that I have and now [ __ ] I
1:27:51have to use it towards myself.
1:27:53Um
1:27:54gay people will speak about this about
1:27:55internalized homophobia.
1:27:57>> Mhm.
1:27:57>> I've heard women speak about
1:27:58internalized misogyny.
1:28:00>> Yeah.
1:28:00>> You know? So
1:28:03you can't work on this [ __ ] unless you
1:28:05feel safe enough to
1:28:07recognize it in yourself.
1:28:10>> Cuz this is a
1:28:10>> can't become less racist without going,
1:28:13"Fuck it, I'm a bit racist."
1:28:14>> Yeah, yeah. No, it's I totally
1:28:16>> It's just how it works, you know?
1:28:18>> In your story about the donkey
1:28:20um called the donkey is so beautiful and
1:28:24>> [gasps]
1:28:25>> when you you see this little kid and the
1:28:28donkey on the roundabout selling
1:28:30Christmas trees and the
1:28:32he has a coat hanger that he beats the
1:28:34donkey with and there's this look of
1:28:36kind of
1:28:38tolerance or used in it. And you said
1:28:42I had this sense that it was a female
1:28:44donkey and
1:28:46and there was just this sort of it was
1:28:47like
1:28:48you
1:28:50in that description you get it
1:28:53that sort of unspoken language, the code
1:28:56of you see
1:28:58you saw how this female put up with
1:29:01stuff because that's what she was used
1:29:03to and it was
1:29:05it was really um you know, you didn't
1:29:07say anything else about you didn't
1:29:09quantify or qualify, but reading that it
1:29:12I was
1:29:14you know, you
1:29:16you feel sort of noted.
1:29:19>> I I try to do that. That is
1:29:23one of the examples where when I'm
1:29:26writing I'm consciously using craft um
1:29:29ironically it comes from [ __ ]
1:29:31Hemingway.
1:29:32>> Really?
1:29:33>> And Hemingway is one of these writers
1:29:35that's
1:29:37is a misogynist writer.
1:29:39>> Mhm.
1:29:39>> He doesn't write a lot of female
1:29:41characters.
1:29:42It's very male.
1:29:45His biography, which I love at Moveable
1:29:48Feast, which is a beautiful piece of
1:29:50work.
1:29:51The women in his life barely [ __ ]
1:29:53feature. They're just these annoyances
1:29:55that come in for what and his writing
1:29:56career is the most important thing.
1:29:58But what I took from Hemingway as a
1:30:00writer is
1:30:03he had this technique that he referred
1:30:05to as the iceberg technique.
1:30:07Hemingway started off as a journalist
1:30:10and he was a journalist who would
1:30:13travel the world
1:30:14and I think it might have been the time
1:30:16of telegraphs
1:30:17where he could might have to go to Italy
1:30:20and report on something that happened in
1:30:21the war.
1:30:23And he would have to condense the story
1:30:25into the shortest pieces of information
1:30:28and then telegraph telegraph that back
1:30:29to the newsroom.
1:30:31But that's concision in how he wrote and
1:30:34the economy of information then went to
1:30:36inform how he wrote fiction. So what he
1:30:40called it the
1:30:42the iceberg which again
1:30:45most likely that he was aware of
1:30:48Sigmund Freud when he's doing this.
1:30:51To provide a very tightly descriptive
1:30:55way of writing your prose
1:30:57that if you can do it just right, you're
1:30:59giving the person the tip of the iceberg
1:31:01but the unconscious will bubble through
1:31:04if you do it correctly.
1:31:06And
1:31:07that will find its way up there.
1:31:10So it's a bit of a show don't tell type
1:31:12thing. So I try and find those little
1:31:14moments in my story where you're saying
1:31:16very little but you want to give the
1:31:18writer at the reader that little gut
1:31:20punch that makes them reflect and then
1:31:23something deeper comes underneath. So
1:31:25with the beating of the donkey
1:31:29I'm taking a bit from Young as well with
1:31:31this but there's
1:31:33there's Christ Christ has gone on and
1:31:35there's always a bit of Christ.
1:31:37And that's my childhood and seeing
1:31:39Christ getting beaten and the crown of
1:31:40thorns.
1:31:42There is
1:31:44the abuse that women put up with,
1:31:46domestic abuse and then also
1:31:51Nietzsche
1:31:52Nietzsche has a story of
1:31:55one day he returned home from work and
1:31:57he saw
1:31:59a horse being beaten in the streets in
1:32:01Prague I think it was, and that drove
1:32:03him into a nervous breakdown.
1:32:05You know, so when when it's something
1:32:08like a donkey, I I am aware that I'm
1:32:11dealing with archetypes here.
1:32:12>> Mhm.
1:32:12>> I'm dealing with very powerful imagery
1:32:15that means a lot of things to a lot of
1:32:16people.
1:32:17And the donkey at Christmas, too.
1:32:20>> Yeah.
1:32:21>> there's [clears throat] your crib,
1:32:21there's your Christ, but you don't want
1:32:23to be obvious with it.
1:32:25You bring it in, and like the iceberg,
1:32:27all the people will fill in those dots
1:32:29and do what they need. My job is the the
1:32:32economy of writing and just get that
1:32:34prose [ __ ] tight, so there's no
1:32:35[ __ ]
1:32:38>> Yeah, I have a
1:32:39Well, it it did exactly that, and I love
1:32:43the way you described she had a head
1:32:45like chopped wood.
1:32:47And then I think the boy had a smile
1:32:49like a smashed shell. Was that Oh my
1:32:53god, that was so good.
1:32:55>> That's the Hiberno-English. That's um
1:32:58>> That was so brilliant.
1:32:59>> The thing is
1:33:01And it's the same with Colm Tóibín, who
1:33:03who you had on. We're very lucky in
1:33:05Ireland in that
1:33:06>> Mhm.
1:33:07>> we speak English as a first language,
1:33:09but because
1:33:11because of colonization, because English
1:33:13was forced upon us,
1:33:15we speak the English language
1:33:18often with the grammatical structure of
1:33:19the Irish language. And that
1:33:22I call Hib- That's Hiberno-English. It's
1:33:26English as it's spoken in Ireland.
1:33:27That's our [ __ ] jazz music.
1:33:30The thing with jazz music is
1:33:32in the Western classical tradition,
1:33:35it's very structured.
1:33:37You You read the music sheet, you follow
1:33:39things, but with jazz,
1:33:42it has that There's African traditions
1:33:45at the roots of it. And with the African
1:33:47traditions, there's notes that don't
1:33:48exist in the Western scale, and there's
1:33:50improvisation.
1:33:52So, and and a lot of jazz musicians, if
1:33:54you go to New Orleans,
1:33:56a lot of them French classical trained
1:33:58musicians who brought a kind of
1:34:01African-American folk tradition. And now
1:34:03you have this free form music.
1:34:05Irish writing is a bit like that.
1:34:08We're writing in the English language,
1:34:10but we have the wildness of
1:34:11Hiberno-English.
1:34:12>> Mhm.
1:34:13>> You can have multiple meanings. You can
1:34:15have a fluidity.
1:34:16There's no [ __ ] rules. You do what
1:34:18feels right. So, the donkey's head has a
1:34:20head like chopped wood.
1:34:21>> Yeah.
1:34:22>> It doesn't matter if it makes sense.
1:34:23It's about what does it feel like in the
1:34:24gut?
1:34:24>> Yeah, I could see that.
1:34:26>> to bring in the mineral uncle.
1:34:28I always say this about uh
1:34:30James Joyce's Ulysses is always seen as
1:34:32this impenetrable [ __ ] book.
1:34:35And Yanks read it and they pore over it.
1:34:38And they spend ages trying to figure out
1:34:39what Joyce was trying to do.
1:34:42Read Ulysses like your mineral uncle.
1:34:44>> Right.
1:34:45>> A lot of Ulysses is a drunk Irish uncle
1:34:47at a wedding.
1:34:48You know? And it's how that uncle in his
1:34:51drunkenness is trying to
1:34:54associate different things together.
1:34:57And use Hiberno-English to do it. It's
1:34:59not as complicated as the Yanks make it
1:35:01out to be. Read it as the drunk [ __ ]
1:35:02uncle. And there's a musicality in it,
1:35:04too, cuz
1:35:05>> Yeah.
1:35:05>> I mean uh Joyce wanted to be a singer.
1:35:08>> Really?
1:35:09>> Yeah. You can get a few of his
1:35:10compositions online.
1:35:12He was obsessed with the There was an
1:35:14Irish tenor by the name of John
1:35:16McCormack.
1:35:18And Joyce wrote a song for McCormack.
1:35:20And it's actually not bad. But, you
1:35:22Yeah, you can hear it online.
1:35:24>> [clears throat]
1:35:24>> The other thing about Joyce, too, that
1:35:25people don't talk about
1:35:28One of probably my favorite short story
1:35:30in the whole world is The Dead by James
1:35:33Joyce, which is at the end of Dubliners.
1:35:35And
1:35:37Joyce wrote The Dead in 1913. And what
1:35:40makes The Dead so special is
1:35:43Well, one of the things that stands out
1:35:44for me is the ending of The Dead.
1:35:47For Joyce
1:35:49the point of view suddenly becomes a
1:35:50snowflake that drifts all over Ireland
1:35:53in a storm
1:35:55and then lands on a young man's grave.
1:35:58And
1:36:01Joyce opened Ireland's first ever
1:36:03[ __ ] cinema.
1:36:05Did you know that?
1:36:06>> I I read that, but I forgot
1:36:09>> And if you think of cinema in 1913,
1:36:13it is an art form that's in its infancy.
1:36:15>> Mhm.
1:36:16>> Cameras were often static. The language
1:36:18that cinema had was the language of
1:36:20theater.
1:36:20>> Mhm.
1:36:21>> So, the ending of the of the dead, and
1:36:24this is the man who opened Ireland's
1:36:26first cinema, so he's obsessed with this
1:36:27new art form.
1:36:29Joyce is imagining the possibility of
1:36:31cinema. He's imagining a drone shot or a
1:36:34dolly shot or a helicopter shot before
1:36:37it had been invented. And that's what
1:36:39you get with that story. It's And that's
1:36:41what I love that job makes it pure
1:36:42modernism.
1:36:44What I adore about modernism is it's
1:36:46when art is confronted with the anxiety
1:36:48of a new technology. And instead of
1:36:50wilting, it goes, "Fuck that so. How can
1:36:53I challenge this?" And that's what Joyce
1:36:56is writing is [clears throat]
1:36:57"Jesus, I'm terrified. Cinema, that's
1:36:59going to do away with books. [ __ ] that.
1:37:02I'm going to have a camera in this
1:37:03story, which is revolutionary in 1913,
1:37:05you know?"
1:37:06>> That's amazing.
1:37:09I I wanted to take you back to your
1:37:11clothes and um
1:37:14when you get dressed,
1:37:16your outfit starts or ends with the bag
1:37:19on your head, but
1:37:21do you ever Have you ever consciously
1:37:24chosen clothes to be attractive to
1:37:26somebody?
1:37:28>> So,
1:37:30this is my nudity.
1:37:31>> Mhm.
1:37:32>> So, these are I don't wear these in
1:37:34public, but when I dress in public,
1:37:37my day-to-day clothes,
1:37:41I wear a lot of Gore-Tex. I often say
1:37:45in my normal life, I I dress like a
1:37:48a defrocked priest who was kicked out of
1:37:50the priesthood for masturbating in a
1:37:51cinema.
1:37:52>> [laughter]
1:37:55>> That's very specific.
1:37:57But it's just [laughter]
1:37:59>> Yeah, I dress like a [ __ ] middle-aged
1:38:01man who's gone on a pilgrimage up a
1:38:03mountain because he can't stop wanking.
1:38:05That type of way, do you know what I
1:38:06mean?
1:38:07All Gore-Tex. I dress I love cycling in
1:38:10the rain.
1:38:11>> Skin tights, that stuff.
1:38:13>> Yeah, and now I know outdoor clothing
1:38:15after getting cool now. The Gen Z have
1:38:17this thing called Gorpcore, which is
1:38:18great. But I'm often I just I dress for
1:38:21the rain. Um
1:38:24Last year, I I I won a [ __ ] award. It
1:38:28was a the Grierson Award for
1:38:29documentaries, and it was the biggest
1:38:31award I'd won. And I hate award
1:38:33ceremonies. I never go to them. But this
1:38:35one was so [ __ ] big, I had to go to
1:38:37the ceremony, which means I had to think
1:38:39about dressing.
1:38:40So, I went into Brown Thomas, which is
1:38:43like a fancy store in Limerick, and I
1:38:45let them dress me, and I got a Hugo Boss
1:38:47suit.
1:38:48But
1:38:50I don't really but I I don't really
1:38:53Jesus Christ, if I start trying to dress
1:38:56to impress another person, it's a
1:38:57language I don't understand. I'll tell
1:39:00you how I dress. I dress to be ignored.
1:39:03I I I dress
1:39:06I want to look like an Airbnb apartment.
1:39:09I [laughter] I want
1:39:12to look just good enough that no one's
1:39:15going to compliment my clothes.
1:39:17>> [laughter]
1:39:17>> I'm not [ __ ] enough that someone's going
1:39:19to insult my clothes.
1:39:21I want to blend in. I want to be
1:39:22Coldplay.
1:39:24Um I want to be like I said, like if
1:39:27you're going through Airbnb
1:39:29the thing with an Airbnb apartment
1:39:31they're trying to look like someone's
1:39:33home, but it's never someone's home
1:39:34anymore. You're never actually staying
1:39:36in someone's home. What you're staying
1:39:38in is
1:39:40It's that's run by a corporate business
1:39:42where they're trying to make it appear
1:39:43like someone's home, but if you vomit on
1:39:46the furniture, it's okay. They can
1:39:47replace it next week. So, I want to look
1:39:50at that. I want to look like that. It's
1:39:52on first glance, everything's okay here,
1:39:54nice and boring. Let's move on to the
1:39:55next person. That's how I dress.
1:39:58The question of have I ever dressed to
1:40:00impress someone?
1:40:02I would [ __ ] make a bollocks of it.
1:40:05I'd dress like a 1960s dandy if I tried
1:40:07to do that. I would get it so fabulously
1:40:10wrong that I'd be laughed out of the
1:40:11room. So, I I'm just going to stick with
1:40:13beige and try and get away get away with
1:40:15my personality as being the thing that
1:40:17might impress someone.
1:40:18When I was going on dates with girls
1:40:19when I was younger, I used to drag them
1:40:20into art galleries.
1:40:22That's what I used to do because
1:40:26the idea of going on a date would be so
1:40:28terrifying to me that I would have to
1:40:31bring them to
1:40:32a space where I can speak about
1:40:34something I'm passionate about and not
1:40:36make eye contact. And if I can just
1:40:38speak about this painting
1:40:40and show them that I'm capable of being
1:40:43caring and loving something and being
1:40:46myself and feeling safe, then they might
1:40:48like me. But if I turn up to a [ __ ]
1:40:50coffee shop trying to dress nicely and
1:40:53do the eye contact and small talk,
1:40:55they're just meeting a lunatic, you
1:40:56know.
1:40:58>> And if if you fancy someone and don't
1:41:01like something they're wearing, does it
1:41:02kill your attraction?
1:41:04>> Couldn't give a [ __ ]
1:41:06Couldn't give a [ __ ]
1:41:08I'm interested in what the person has to
1:41:10say. I don't
1:41:12I have to remind myself to look at
1:41:15people's clothes. Like genuinely, honest
1:41:17to God, I I I do not live in a world
1:41:20where clothes are things that I notice.
1:41:22You know, and and I'd like to be in a
1:41:24world where I notice a little bit more.
1:41:26When I listened to your podcast with
1:41:28Colm Toibin,
1:41:30and actually a genesis came up to me,
1:41:33and I I was jealous of
1:41:36the world that Colm inhabits, for he is
1:41:39noticing what people wear. For he is
1:41:42noticing when people have presence and
1:41:44stuff like that. And And it's something
1:41:46you find as an artistic person,
1:41:49little jealousies come up. And And it's
1:41:51the jealousy of how social other people
1:41:54can be.
1:41:55>> Yeah.
1:41:55>> And
1:41:56I
1:41:57I reflected on it because
1:42:00I was happy with myself that I wasn't
1:42:01jealous of Colm's writing cuz he's a
1:42:03[ __ ] astounding writer.
1:42:04>> Yeah.
1:42:05>> I wasn't jealous of that.
1:42:06And I liked that I was comfortable with
1:42:08that, you know? I was jealous of Oh, you
1:42:12really navigate the world and you
1:42:13remember this person because of a shirt
1:42:15they wore 40 years ago. And you remember
1:42:17the aura they had. And I felt sad that
1:42:21I don't even see this [ __ ]
1:42:23I don't see this [ __ ] as an artistic
1:42:25person.
1:42:27>> Cuz I read that you'd said, "I I do want
1:42:30to be embraced by the literary world,
1:42:32but the part of me that wants to be
1:42:34embraced is toxic, insecure part of
1:42:38myself." But
1:42:39you're a brilliant writer, and it seems
1:42:41reasonable to me to desire that. And the
1:42:46But does that seem almost too precarious
1:42:48a thing to
1:42:49>> Um
1:42:49>> to long for?
1:42:51>> It's just when So, I have difficulty
1:42:55being accepted by the literary
1:42:56community, mainly cuz I have a [ __ ]
1:42:58bag on my head and I'm ridiculous, you
1:43:00know what I mean? And like I said,
1:43:02being solemn, uh
1:43:05the performance of seriousness and
1:43:07solemnity,
1:43:08you got to pull that off very well if
1:43:10you want to be in the serious art world,
1:43:12um which I strongly disagree with.
1:43:14>> Yeah.
1:43:14>> Often someone who is seen as a good
1:43:17writer, they are good writers, but also
1:43:20they have a personality which is this
1:43:22person never laughs because they're so
1:43:25deep in thought all the time. That's
1:43:27[clears throat] bollocks.
1:43:28>> Mhm.
1:43:28>> I adore Like someone who I love Sally
1:43:31Rooney. I love her writing,
1:43:33but
1:43:33>> Sally is her persona is very serious.
1:43:37She's very controlled with it.
1:43:39I like to imagine Sally Rooney sitting
1:43:40at home on her own watching Love Island
1:43:43and eating a Chinese. Do you know what I
1:43:45mean? The humanity of it.
1:43:47Like writers and artists are humans and
1:43:49and sometimes some artists and writers
1:43:51are actually performing a character of
1:43:53seriousness cuz it works for them. What
1:43:55matters is the work.
1:43:57The part of me that wants to be accepted
1:43:58by the literary community
1:44:00is the wounded child who was [ __ ] at
1:44:02school.
1:44:03The I I
1:44:05the little tiny child who wants to teach
1:44:08her to tell me that I'm a good boy.
1:44:10I've managed to project that now onto a
1:44:12critic in the Guardian. Do you know what
1:44:13I mean?
1:44:14And
1:44:17I can't allow that. I need to have an
1:44:19awareness of that is my wounded child.
1:44:22I I I always take two from it. There's a
1:44:24field called transactional analysis.
1:44:26And within that you have your free child
1:44:29and your adapted child. The free child
1:44:31is who I can access when I'm creating,
1:44:33when I'm at play.
1:44:35This is the child who is non-judgmental,
1:44:37who was born into the world without
1:44:39hatred, without jealousy, just a lovely
1:44:42human who only wants
1:44:44to eat dinner and to laugh and to play.
1:44:47That's what little kids are like that
1:44:48and he's still in me.
1:44:50Then there's the adapted child and that
1:44:52is the child who
1:44:54learned about pain, who became insecure,
1:44:56who learned that you receive approval
1:44:59for these behaviors and disapproval for
1:45:01those behaviors.
1:45:03That adapted child is who wants to
1:45:05receive a pat on the head from the
1:45:06Guardian critic. And I have made the
1:45:08Guardian critic quite unfairly
1:45:11the [ __ ] my teacher.
1:45:14What I need to focus on is the work.
1:45:17Like
1:45:18>> [snorts]
1:45:18>> am I being the best version of me?
1:45:22Like I'm not even competitive with other
1:45:23writers. Can I be the best version of
1:45:26me? And the best version of me is
1:45:30I have a unique voice. All artists have
1:45:33their own unique voice. It takes years
1:45:37to get to the point where you can truly
1:45:38hear your own unique voice.
1:45:40But my job is to listen to that unique
1:45:43voice that is just mine
1:45:45and translate that out onto the [ __ ]
1:45:47page. And if I can do that, that's the
1:45:49best I can do. It doesn't matter a [ __ ]
1:45:51what a critic thinks after that, you
1:45:52know?
1:45:53>> Yeah.
1:45:54Well, I think you're succeeding in in no
1:45:57uncertain terms. I mean
1:45:59>> you.
1:45:59>> it's just, you know, through listening
1:46:01to your podcast, all the things I've
1:46:03learned listening
1:46:05to what you talk about and then
1:46:07discovering your your writing, your
1:46:10short stories and
1:46:12yeah, I'm I'm just such a huge admirer
1:46:16of your writing and
1:46:19everything you do and I and it's such a
1:46:21great thing to hear you talk, remind
1:46:25me that the only thing that matters is
1:46:29the process of making something and then
1:46:32you have this kind of exhilaration and
1:46:34freedom in that moment. And also, it
1:46:37makes you
1:46:39free to cope with the outcome. If
1:46:41someone doesn't like it, it's not quite
1:46:43so,
1:46:44you know, agonizing. And
1:46:46anyway, it's a great [music] It's meant
1:46:48so much. It's a great honor for me to
1:46:50have for you to be here and be on
1:46:53Fashion Your Roasts.
1:46:53>> have been here, Bella. Thank you so much
1:46:55for bringing me along.
1:46:56>> Oh, I'm so
1:46:57lovely to have you here. Thank you.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Blindboy on Autism, Solemnity, and Alpha Male Codes | Fashion Neurosis by Fashion Neurosis, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 18,056 words across 3,140 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, caption language selection, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.