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Blacks Love to have Problems — Transcript

by Franck Zanu · 11,150 words · 1,865 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:10Hello guys and welcome to ZPR. This is
0:12Frank Zanu and um I have a a brother
0:17from uh Jamaica. Uh and his his whole
0:22relationship with the Jamaican culture,
0:25the Rasaferian culture and with Africa
0:28is just refreshing. I mean, as he
0:31explained in his email when he wrote to
0:33me and insisted, uh he drove all the way
0:36from Massachusetts and he's in the
0:38studio with me today. He said he took a
0:41look at my platform he's been following
0:43me and there's one thing I mentioned
0:45that got him said well let me go and
0:48expand on this conversation is that
0:51politics will never ever solve any black
0:56problem. So here Christopher Jr. who is
1:00the owner of uh Describe.
1:03Describe is a um he's a web designer who
1:07has a business to allow plugins, right,
1:11for community and website to work well.
1:14And so Chris Junior is in the studio
1:16with me and uh he's going to ask me to
1:18have a discussion on why I thought or he
1:22thought politics would never solve black
1:23problem. Chris, welcome to the studio.
1:25>> Um thanks for having me.
1:27>> Yeah. Yeah. All right. So
1:30now you are the host. Okay. You came to
1:31ask me the questions and then we go back
1:33and forth and you know there's no wrong
1:35or right. We all trying to be curious
1:37about uh the black race, the black
1:39population. We all the same whether
1:41you're from Jamaica or
1:42>> so I will leave the floor for you to
1:44start the conversation. All right.
1:46>> Yes. You know um Frank um growing up in
1:49Jamaica
1:50>> and um you know we have election every
1:52five years.
1:54um you know irrespective of what party
1:57wins nothing changes things they go on
2:01the same pretty much and coming to
2:05America um working around fellow
2:08Africans you know even though I was born
2:10in Jamaica
2:11>> I consider myself a part of the um
2:13African and black family you know even
2:15though some might disagree um
2:19through conversations
2:22I realized that many of our problems are
2:24similar.
2:25>> Yes.
2:25>> Um if I close my eyes and ask for
2:29example a Ghanian what are the problems
2:30in Ghana?
2:32>> I close my eyes and ask a Nigerian what
2:35are the problems in Nigeria.
2:39It was as if I was in Jamaica. The
2:41problems are almost identical.
2:43>> Very good. So, it got me to realize that
2:48there's something deeper
2:50>> than politics that that um are causing
2:54our quote unquote problems, you know. Um
2:56I know you don't like to view them as
2:58problems.
2:59>> Um and you you I I think you you might
3:02not be at the point where you want to
3:04quote unquote put solutions yet, but I
3:07don't know a more appropriate word to
3:10describe them. You know, I know what
3:12you're talking about. Let's call it
3:13problem.
3:14>> Yes. Um,
3:16>> so
3:18something deeper is going on. And in
3:22looking back at Jamaica's history from
3:241962 when we got independence um to this
3:28point in time,
3:30I realized that we did not go about
3:35quote unquote developing the country in
3:38the right manner.
3:39>> Okay.
3:40um we did not deal with who we are
3:44um coming into independence
3:47and because we did not address who we
3:50are
3:52things things collapsed
3:54um starting around
3:561972
3:59um when Michael Manley um came to power
4:04um because he came to power um
4:08with the principle of socialism.
4:10>> Yeah.
4:11>> Um because coming coming into
4:13independence from 1962 up until 1972,
4:17um the country was more quote unquote
4:20capitalist,
4:21>> more aligned with the United States.
4:23Correct.
4:23>> And then he came in and said that you
4:26know the country must go to a socialism
4:29>> and throughout um the 70s the country
4:32deteriorated um significantly.
4:36Um the economy lost 25% of its value
4:40from 1972 to 1980. Um we had a massive
4:45outflow of mostly
4:49the middle to upper class.
4:50>> Yeah.
4:51>> Um the people who run ran the businesses
4:54who own the businesses they left
4:57>> mostly to Miami some to Canada some to
4:59the UK and a few in other places. Um,
5:04and
5:06people like me have been
5:10trying to pull things together.
5:12>> Um, you know, trying to connect the
5:14dots.
5:15>> Yeah.
5:16>> Trying to figure out how do we go about
5:19>> um, quote unquote developing, you know,
5:21is is the question that we all black
5:23people are are asking.
5:24>> Yeah.
5:25>> How do we go about developing the
5:26country?
5:28and
5:31coming across your platform
5:34really brought things home, you know,
5:38and and
5:40it it convinced me that
5:44I wasn't wrong in my assessment,
5:47>> right?
5:48>> In that this these problems are not
5:51political.
5:52>> Yes. And we are
5:57asking our politicians to solve a
5:59problem that they cannot solve.
6:01>> Correct?
6:02>> Because they cannot be solved
6:04politically.
6:06You know, um
6:10in my country for example,
6:15we have political tribalism.
6:17>> Yeah.
6:18where we have one side PMP, one side the
6:22JLP
6:24>> and and
6:26both sides are like waring tribes.
6:29That tribal atmosphere in Africa
6:34manifests itself politically. So in
6:37Jamaica we have a Westminster system
6:39that we got from the UK. Mhm. Um
6:44and instead of
6:47using politics [snorts] how it is used
6:49in the UK where it is to solve solve the
6:52problems of today, we we we look at it
6:54and approach it in a tribal fashion.
6:56>> Yeah.
6:57>> And
7:00no matter what a a particular politician
7:04does, if he's from the correct party, he
7:08gets away with it.
7:10>> Yeah. you know, and when you look at the
7:12UK, you see you see that they don't
7:16approach it that way.
7:17>> Yeah.
7:18>> So that is more evidence to show that
7:22the problem is not political because if
7:25you're running a scientific experiment,
7:27we have two people,
7:30the UK,
7:32Jamaica, the same political system.
7:35>> Yes.
7:36>> And the results are totally different.
7:39Um then it cannot be the system.
7:43[laughter]
7:43>> Exactly.
7:44>> You know it cannot be the system.
7:47>> Um
7:50you [clears throat]
7:50yes you have you have spoken my language
7:53and um
7:55>> it see
7:59let's let's start from 1960
8:02>> when literature political literature
8:03exploded across the Caribbean Africa.
8:06>> Yes. Um people like uh Walter Rodney.
8:09>> Yes.
8:10>> And many others. Yes.
8:11>> Rushed to conclusions.
8:14>> And then there were figures likewaming
8:16Kumar of Ghana because because one he he
8:19was the first to gain independence.
8:21There automatically his image started
8:23spreading across. He visited many
8:26places.
8:27>> Um Hellesazi was thrown into the mix
8:30because of the Raspherians. And then it
8:32didn't help when Walter Rodney made that
8:35book popular in Tanzania. Yes.
8:37>> And then some of the ones written by
8:39France Fenon of Algeria. You are a well-
8:42read man and what you have laid down.
8:45But what is interesting which I I think
8:47you have also heard in some of my
8:49episodes. I am very happy. This is the
8:51first time a Jamaican and by your accent
8:55I can say you grew up in Jamaica. Yes.
8:57>> Okay. Before coming here. So you and I
8:58share something in common. Luckily, I've
9:00been to Jamaica for about five times or
9:03six because I used to do a youth program
9:06with first generation high schoolers. If
9:09you're the first from your family in
9:10Garrison, Tripoli Garden, Spanish Town,
9:13Trenchtown.
9:14>> Yes.
9:15>> I I would host them at UI uh through an
9:19organization called Dream Jamaica.
9:21>> Yes. It was life-changing for me because
9:24it was the first time I grew up in
9:26Africa and I was first introduced to
9:29Jamaica through Howard They Come.
9:32>> Yes.
9:32>> Jimmy Cliff's movie.
9:33>> Yes.
9:33>> Was the first that really exposed
9:35Jamaica. But what it was interesting is
9:37we didn't see anything wrong in the
9:38movie. We just wanted to be so badly in
9:42Jamaica and because of our brothers.
9:44>> Yes. Yes. Yes.
9:46But you made a very good point by saying
9:50when you speak with Nigerians, you close
9:53your eyes and you listen to a Nigerian
9:54or a Ghanaian to go, anyone from West
9:56Africa or Africa and you ask them what
9:59is the problem? By the time they finish
10:00describing it, it sound almost as if
10:03they're talking about Jamaica.
10:04>> Yes.
10:05>> Well, that's where we can start from.
10:08So, you were very right by saying
10:11the problem is not the political system.
10:14No,
10:15>> the problem is not religion because we
10:17are Christians and all of that. So if
10:20you remove those then you come to and
10:22then you said something very
10:23interesting. How can a country
10:26in the Caribbean have the same political
10:29system and structure with the UK and yet
10:33the results are very different. So you
10:35have done a very powerful deduction
10:38already that leads us to only one thing.
10:42your question to me in my observation as
10:44I travel and I wrote when I was a
10:46reporter about culture and life or life
10:48and culture
10:50>> what I came to see that is very um
10:55similar
10:57so we are going to use the word advanced
10:59countries or industrialized countries
11:00you know
11:01>> what I saw that was similar among and
11:05between adv industrialized country is
11:09in their history they started first by
11:13examining and reorganizing their
11:15culture.
11:17Politics was never the first.
11:20Every time a group of Australians or UK
11:23people who move to this place now call
11:25America or even the UK itself and any
11:27other places. The Japanese went through
11:29the same system. What they did was they
11:31looked inside and reorganized their
11:33culture. I was asking uh a gentleman who
11:37came on my show earlier
11:39what did he think that the European
11:41philosophers which was just massive
11:43Greeks Germany Dutch French philosophers
11:47what was the one thing they were all
11:48concerned about and it's about the
11:50cerebral system of the human development
11:52the brain the mind intellect how we
11:54think
11:57you do that first and in the course of
12:00doing that that is why Plato's book uh
12:03what is it called the republic. It's
12:05about how to structure a country.
12:09When you do it, if democracy is a
12:11government by the people, for the
12:14people, then you're right. It's not the
12:16political system you adopt, it's the
12:18people. What happened, which is similar
12:22between Caribbean countries, Jamaica
12:25being one and the most popular
12:28than Haiti that boast to be the first to
12:31get independent. Jamaica, Jamaica is
12:33just popular, okay? Popular country.
12:36Jamaica made black people, Jamaicans or
12:40Rasapharians or Jamaicans made black uh
12:43more popular race than even any black of
12:45the continent of Africa.
12:48Why
12:50it's similar is because of one thing
12:53only.
12:55The countries in Africa, as you
12:57mentioned, Ghana, Nigeria, all that,
13:00what they have in common with the
13:01countries in the Caribbean, it's not
13:02skin color or race, is the fact that not
13:05a single country in Africa was founded
13:08authentically by the people who live in
13:10it.
13:13Not a single country in the Caribbean,
13:15black countries that was founded
13:17authentically by the people who live in
13:18it.
13:20That is where we have to go to. Then how
13:23did you become a country?
13:26Because if you did not found it, which
13:28means founding it simply means that a
13:30group of people with bags on their back
13:32right saying, "Oh, this place is too
13:33harsh. We don't have rivers. We don't
13:35have uh, you know, agricultural land.
13:37Let's find a place." And so few
13:39families, you know,
13:43Papuan Guinea 70,000 years ago, they
13:46left Africa. You come upon a place and
13:48said, "This place is good for us." you
13:50settle there, it could be a few families
13:54that has something in common and then
13:56they know they're going to develop.
13:58They're going to increase in population.
14:00So what do you start first? The first is
14:02what is the sense of value for us?
14:05Forget we have access to the river, to
14:07the ocean, to the land, we can plant, we
14:09can cook, we can eat, we can have
14:11children. What is should we adopt which
14:14is the unwritten social contract among
14:16us here. That is what it means when the
14:18people found a place they first
14:20establish what is called sense of value.
14:23Senses of value.
14:25>> Yes. And um you're so right. And
14:30another thing that attract me attract me
14:31to your pro attracted me to your program
14:33is that you go below the surface.
14:36>> Yeah.
14:37>> And I think I'm going to generalize
14:39again, but not all not all but a lot
14:42black people we don't go um below the
14:44surface.
14:45>> Yes. And that's one of the problems
14:48because when you look at Jamaica for
14:50example
14:54at that time around the 1962
14:57a little bit before when the independent
15:00fervor was was high
15:01>> very high.
15:02>> Um
15:05the narrative was that the the quote
15:07problems were because of the white man.
15:10>> Yes.
15:11>> Right. and and
15:14>> we did not go below the surface.
15:16>> That's correct.
15:16>> Because if you if you go below the
15:18surface in Jamaica's case, when you look
15:22at
15:24that period, Jamaica was developed
15:29according to the time.
15:32>> That's correct.
15:33>> Uh um
15:35but my ancestors,
15:38we they they did not look below the
15:39surface.
15:40>> Yes. And I I don't I don't know if it
15:44was because the internet um wasn't
15:46available or because you know news you
15:49know did not get from point A to point B
15:51very quickly. But when I look at the
15:55economy at the time of the country and I
15:57look at the the um infrastructure
16:00the country was developed
16:03for that time.
16:04>> Yes.
16:05>> Jamaica you you saw you were there. Jama
16:09Jamaica had a railway system.
16:11>> Yes.
16:13>> Jamaica had
16:14>> post office.
16:15>> Post office.
16:16>> Fire station.
16:16>> Fire station.
16:17>> Um a a a worldclass road network for
16:20that for that time.
16:21>> Absolutely.
16:22>> Um Jamaica had a justice system. Every
16:24every city Kingston you see the
16:26courouses about the place.
16:28>> Yes.
16:28>> Indoor plumbing.
16:30>> Yes.
16:30>> Um the Mona Dam in Kingston was built in
16:3519 in 1950s before independence. That's
16:38correct.
16:38>> Um
16:40the tourism was there was was there at
16:42the time humming and buzzing factories
16:43were there good factory. So um
16:48but there was a misunderstanding
16:51because when you look at economies you
16:53look at Japan, the UK, the United
16:55States, Singapore, whatever.
16:58When a country is quote unquote
17:00developing,
17:01the people who invest
17:04make the most money first. They make the
17:06most money and they make money first.
17:09And
17:10my ancestors, my grandparent generation,
17:13there was a lack of economic
17:15understanding.
17:17The wealth wasn't trickling down, quote
17:20unquote. You know, President Obama and
17:22the the left, they like to talk about
17:24spreading the wealth around, trickling
17:26down and and whatever. It wasn't
17:29trickling down. If even if it was, it
17:32wasn't fast enough.
17:34So that caused my grandparents
17:37generation to veer towards socialism
17:41because this, you know, in in in
17:43hindsight, we all agreed in in in
17:47Jamaica that that was it was it was the
17:49wrong approach to go towards socialism.
17:54But what we failed to contend with was
17:59that the politician who who put force
18:03socialism, he had widespread support.
18:05It's a democracy. He was voted in and we
18:09have not addressed why why he was voted
18:13in.
18:13>> All right, let me share something with
18:14you. Yes.
18:18>> This is the reason
18:21that was the reason Walter Rodney was
18:24confused.
18:24>> Yes. Yes. Yes.
18:26>> Walter Rodney came to Tanzania and
18:30everything you described that Jamaica
18:32had in 1962,
18:34Tanzania had the same thing. Same as
18:38Kenya, Ghana. Okay.
18:41functioning rail rail network, road
18:44network, fire stations. I when I was
18:47going to Jamaica one day, I decided to
18:49go to the UI library and I was always
18:51very interested in archives.
18:54Lord have mercy. If you seen Kingston
18:56roads and the people the dressing back
18:58in the 60s,
19:00I mean you would agree with you that
19:03should be called a developed place.
19:05>> Exact. It was Christopher
19:10if 10 years after you came to that place
19:14and all those things have died.
19:18Rodney saw the same thing in Tanzania
19:22and he thought that Tanzanians were the
19:26ones who build those things and since
19:29Tanzania became a failed state therefore
19:32it was Europe that underdeveloped
19:35Tanzania. He forgotten that the things
19:38he saw were built by the colonizer.
19:42Every single thing you mentioned built
19:44in Jamaica was built by the colonizer.
19:46So if you go into Jamaica between 1962
19:49up to 1968
19:51or 70, let's give it eight years, you
19:54would see this functioning systems, but
19:58it was left in the hands of the
20:00Jamaicans
20:04and they didn't build it. So they
20:06wouldn't know how to maintain it.
20:09They wouldn't know how to invest in it.
20:12They wouldn't know how to reach out to
20:14other people to bring their
20:15collaboration and partnership in
20:16investment into Jamaica. It's like the
20:18rich man from the Caribbean who was so
20:21rich he had five boys children and he
20:25just let them live on his wealth.
20:28Then he dies
20:30and the boys don't even know
20:33how to manage the wealth he left behind.
20:37This story is common across Africa.
20:39>> Yes. Once very wealthy man
20:44build newspapers, the first
20:48u bakeries, you name it, real estate,
20:50even airlines, he dies and none of his
20:54children is able to keep any one of
20:56these businesses alive. Yes. So when
21:00Manley saw that what was in 1962 was
21:04dying, he immediately thought it might
21:08be the political system that is not
21:10making the things work. Like you said
21:11from the beginning, the African always
21:13thought that politics build societies.
21:17He forgot societies builds politics.
21:20Also to to boast of that point,
21:24what we don't realize is that we we need
21:27to reverse. I I think we have all the
21:30all the puzzles, but we have them in
21:34incorrect order. And and it's it's a
21:37struggle to get them in the correct
21:38order.
21:38>> We
21:39>> black people in general.
21:40>> No, but we it can't be black people in
21:43general. the the people who are
21:45concerned about fixing the quote unquote
21:47problems
21:49>> um because
21:52>> politics is a tool
21:56um to carry out a particular end for for
21:58example for example say you have
22:01>> um a city
22:05>> the people the people build based on
22:08their customs their knowhow and their
22:10capabilities Mhm.
22:13In my opinion, based on what I observe,
22:16the politics [snorts] is supposed to be
22:19used to
22:22foster negotiation,
22:24enforce contracts
22:27and to maintain,
22:30>> but you see
22:31>> the the um the public space.
22:34>> You are putting the cart before the
22:36horse.
22:38What is it you built in Jamaica that
22:40needs politics to regulate it?
22:45>> In our case, we didn't build it.
22:47>> Exactly. So, you're not going to even
22:48need politics. So, so no matter what, no
22:51matter what anybody invited as a
22:54political system.
22:55>> Yes.
22:57>> Okay.
22:59You've made some very powerful
23:01observations.
23:04But what is happening is
23:08we are putting the the cart before the
23:10horse. First of all, the things I truly
23:14liked it when you said, how did you put
23:15it? You said
23:17places are built,
23:20>> you know, based on the custom, the know
23:22of the people
23:22>> of the people. What are the customs of
23:24Jamaicans?
23:25>> Authentic, original. And who's a
23:27Jamaican by the way?
23:29>> Those are very good questions.
23:30>> That's correct. No, you see what I what
23:33you say you want us to do go deeper than
23:35the surface is exactly what
23:38>> so in 1962 up until 1970 1980 late mid
23:41'90s these conversations were not there
23:44we rely on only one book
23:45>> yes
23:46>> Waltney
23:47Walter Rodney wrote this book and
23:49everybody in the Caribbean will read it
23:50because we don't have but today look at
23:52you
23:53>> you are sitting with this knowledge that
23:55you have this conversation that should
23:56be important among high school students
23:58in Jamaica they should give it to them
24:00to discuss you're saying
24:03let's go back forget about politics
24:06because politics never solves any social
24:09problem because politics requires
24:11legislation you cannot legislate
24:13morality
24:14>> and also politics flows upstream
24:16>> upstream that's correct
24:18>> yeah yeah yeah
24:19>> that's the thing but morality uh flows
24:22downstream into the system that you are
24:25trying to create and so you can vote and
24:27they have they have promises
24:31that if we choose the right leader
24:34things will be fine.
24:35>> Yes.
24:36>> Okay. So let me share it back to you. So
24:38we go from there and you can ask me how
24:41then everything that happened in my
24:43country in terms of infrastructure in
24:471960 when we got independence in Beni
24:49you could have called that place
24:50developed. In 1957 when Ghana got
24:53independence you could have called that
24:54place developed.
24:55>> Yes. Yes. Yes.
24:57What is similar between the Caribbeans
24:59and and the West Africa is what I'm
25:00sharing with you. Everything you
25:02mentioned all died slowly. That means
25:06none of the things we inherited did we
25:09build by ourselves. So we did not create
25:12any any structure with our customs and
25:14traditions organically from us. So
25:19whether politics or not, the first
25:21problem is what they handed over to you.
25:23You didn't build it. How would you be
25:25able to maintain it?
25:26>> Yes. And there are two lines of
25:29frustration that um we have. Number one,
25:36the politician is supposed to maintain
25:39the public space. The politician is not
25:41necessarily quote unquote to build. As
25:44black people were concerned, you know,
25:47we need to
25:49hammer out the definition of build. We
25:53build our building it is not only
25:56physical.
25:58You know what I mean?
26:00You can you you you can build some if I
26:03have a house and I hire
26:07um someone to build the house. The
26:09question is who really built that house?
26:13Is is it the person who I hire or is it
26:15me?
26:17You know what I mean? And and I think
26:19and I think that's what that's one of
26:21our problems. We we see the physical
26:24structures
26:25>> and because my grandfather was the one
26:30my grand my granddad was the builder who
26:34was hired to build the courthouse. We
26:37built it
26:38>> and and and and and um and
26:44>> say have you heard it here in America?
26:46Hold on. Yeah, I was going to say,
26:47>> okay,
26:48>> it is the same concept in the United
26:51States of the
26:52>> where um FBA African-Americans
26:56>> they are of the view that they built the
26:59United States
27:01>> and
27:03>> I personally don't want to dismiss that
27:05notion.
27:06>> I want to interact with that notion.
27:09>> Yes. and
27:11less of a debate around that concept of
27:14what is what does built mean?
27:16>> Correct.
27:17>> Because we are of the view that that the
27:20physical is is is built.
27:23>> Very good.
27:24>> You know what I mean? I like that.
27:26>> And and because of that we we struggle
27:30with why
27:32the building has stopped. [laughter]
27:35You know what I mean? be because if my
27:39granddad
27:41during quote unquote during the colonial
27:43period built the courthouse.
27:46>> Yes.
27:46>> He built the post office.
27:48>> Yeah.
27:49>> Um his friend company
27:52did the wiring.
27:53>> Yes.
27:54>> Then we asking ourself why why
27:58>> can't we all of that stopped?
27:59>> Okay. That's right.
28:01>> You know what I mean? And if we go below
28:03the surface
28:05um we might conclude that
28:10maybe the idea maybe the maybe the idea
28:13was not theirs.
28:14>> Correct.
28:16>> They only manifested an idea.
28:19>> Correct.
28:19>> And building is not only physical
28:22structure. It's also the idea.
28:25>> Yes. The concepts. Yes.
28:26>> The concept. So, so the concept of
28:29Jamaica,
28:31our grandparents did not build it.
28:34>> Correct.
28:35>> The concept and they built what is there
28:38physically.
28:39>> Correct.
28:40>> And we we have to look at
28:43>> the concept.
28:45>> Yes.
28:45>> Of building separate from the physical
28:47building. And I think that's the um
28:51confusion.
28:52>> The same thing is in the pyramid.
28:54>> Yes.
28:55>> The pyramid. Who built it?
28:57>> Exactly. And maybe somebody walked back
28:59and forth every day. He saw a bunch of
29:01black slaves.
29:02>> Yes. Stones. Michelle Obama used to say,
29:05"We build a white house." Yes.
29:07>> And and and so you are very very This is
29:10a very crucial That alone, what you just
29:13said, that alone should make a whole
29:15debate and discussion.
29:16>> Yes. Yes.
29:17>> So now let me go back to you.
29:24The guy who had the concept
29:26if you take him out and take what he he
29:29made you to build physically and you
29:31send him somewhere he will just do the
29:33same thing but you who just physically
29:36build the thing you can't repeat it
29:38>> no because it didn't come from you
29:39>> that's correct
29:40>> didn't come from you
29:41>> this is the problem of South Africa
29:43>> yes yes
29:44>> okay why they gave it to them 34 years
29:46ago and they couldn't because the
29:48concept so now
29:51economic is a concept and and and and it
29:55it was refined in Europe. Adam Smith and
29:59and his uh people, right? And then
30:02different countries began to refine
30:04economic systems based on their own
30:06culture and their own language and their
30:07own customs and all that.
30:09>> Okay. So concepts I will tell you as a
30:13matter of fact I've I've received a very
30:16powerful book from a gentleman who mail
30:18it to me from Europe
30:20and he spent over 22 years in South
30:22Africa East Africa central Africa
30:25one of the things the black race and
30:27there is nothing wrong with it just like
30:30in the jungle animals are different same
30:32in the in the human race humans are
30:34different
30:36biologically yes we function properly
30:38but in terms of exposure as what formed
30:40us. There are certain things you don't
30:42need the concept
30:45>> it comes natural you know for example we
30:48know that it's going to snow in a in a
30:50couple months
30:51>> that's correct
30:51>> so so we're going to be we're going to
30:53be gearing up and preparing for that
30:54>> that's correct and if that is the case
30:57>> we also need to understand that oh that
30:59is what formed us and the way we look at
31:01the world
31:01>> yes yes
31:03>> the problem is this
31:06nothing would have gone wrong but
31:08because the black race become the only
31:11one that is so concept starved because
31:15our physical environment but
31:17unfortunately or fortunately I don't
31:19know which one came first some of these
31:21black people were harvested from their
31:23physical environment which is Africa and
31:26brought to the Caribbean which is the
31:27western hemisphere and of course some
31:29less in Europe and in the Americas. Now
31:32you are asking them to function within a
31:36physical place
31:39that does not have any familiarity to
31:43their senses. Jamaica, Haiti and all the
31:46rest, Nigeria, Ghana and all the rest
31:50were handed over a concept,
31:53not an economy.
31:56Political systems are concepts.
31:59Even the original place from where he
32:01came from like democracy for in are
32:03still trying to see is it complete yet.
32:07>> Yes. And and I have a controversial
32:10take.
32:10>> Okay. um regarding um even democracy and
32:14and the style of governments um because
32:19I
32:20watch an interview of Lee and you
32:24>> um
32:25you know and they were asking him in
32:28Singapore why don't you have freedom of
32:30the press
32:32and
32:35he turned to the journalists and he said
32:37look
32:39what works works in the UK, in Europe in
32:42general, it's not going to work in
32:44Singapore because we are we we are
32:46agents,
32:48right? And
32:50there are certain things about democracy
32:52that I like, freedom of speech, freedom
32:54of expression and whatnot.
32:57But what we failed to do in Jamaica
33:00specifically in 1962
33:04was to ask these questions. Who are we?
33:08>> Okay. and and after we asked the
33:11question who are we and we arrive at
33:14some answers we tailored
33:17the democracy to who who we are
33:21and if if you look at the founding
33:22fathers of the United States that's what
33:25they did um they did not take the
33:28democracy the Westminster model in the
33:31UK and and apply it in the United States
33:35caught blanch
33:37the [laughter]
33:38Because if you look for example in the
33:40UK, freedom of speech is not a
33:43constitutional right. It's a but but
33:46they say, "Okay, look, we're going to
33:47take this from here and we're going to
33:49make this our own. We're going to tweak
33:51it our way. We're going we're going to
33:53have the second amendment. We're going
33:54to have the fifth amendment. You know,
33:56we're going to have states and they're
33:58going to have they're going to be equal
33:59in in maybe the number of senators, not
34:02the number of people in the house." And
34:04you can see you can see the similarity
34:06but the tweaking
34:08and in Jamaica's case there was no
34:10tweaking and I suspect that there was no
34:13tweaking because with the questions that
34:16we are asking now and the conversation
34:18that you have you know started you're
34:23you're the main you're the progenitor of
34:25the conversation.
34:26>> Okay. We never asked these questions
34:32around when when independent fervor um
34:35was was at fever pitch. We never ask
34:37these questions.
34:38>> Why do you think you didn't ask?
34:41>> I I think
34:42>> you've described three places already.
34:45Who did that after their impedance?
34:46Singapore you mentioned.
34:48>> Yes. Yes. Yes.
34:48>> Uh America you mentioned.
34:50>> Okay.
34:51>> Yes.
34:51>> And Korea and other places they didn't.
34:53So why do you think we didn't?
34:56I think there was a lack of
34:57understanding.
34:59>> What do you mean by that?
35:02>> Lack of understanding what
35:03>> what the problem the quote unquote
35:06problems that they
35:09saw during the colonial era. They
35:12thought those those problems were
35:14because of
35:16the colonial masters. They thought that
35:18was because the British or the or the
35:20French or whatever. They they they they
35:23did not they did not ask questions.
35:26This system that we see that that have
35:29been put into place by the French or the
35:31English.
35:31>> Why did they misunderstand the system?
35:34>> It's not theirs. Did it come from them
35:39and and they they hold on hold on. These
35:43systems
35:45come with certain goodies that we like.
35:48I call them goodies.
35:49>> Okay?
35:50>> You see? and we want the goodies.
35:53>> Let me take you back to something you
35:54said.
35:54>> Yes. Yes. Yes.
35:55>> You made a very interesting comparison.
35:58I like that. You said the founding
36:00fathers of America when they found
36:02themselves in the hands of the British,
36:03this is what they did, right?
36:07What language did they use?
36:08>> English.
36:10>> What language were the Jamaicans
36:12speaking at the time they got
36:13independence?
36:15>> What was the authentic language to
36:17Jamaicans? PWA
36:20um some African
36:22brought over with a little bit of
36:24English speaking.
36:24>> That's right.
36:26>> So which Jamaican are you asking to lead
36:29the question? With what language, with
36:31what concept, with what customs, with
36:33what remaining traditions and
36:34understanding
36:36>> they took them from Africa when there
36:38was no school systems, education
36:39systems, thinking processes or systems
36:41of thinking? There was none. That is not
36:43an insult. We said something you agree
36:45on. There are things you may not need
36:48just because of where physically you
36:50evolved,
36:50>> not because you're stupid. Yes.
36:52>> And one of those we didn't need, we
36:54didn't need philosophers.
36:56>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
36:58>> By nature of our physical environment
37:00and the wonders of nature, the way it
37:02helped the African to exist. Rivers,
37:03lakes, dams, oceans. We have to give it
37:07a such an understanding so that we can
37:09live with it. You understand? Okay. So
37:12then somebody came and uprooted you and
37:14brought you to Jamaica over 32 different
37:17tribes.
37:19>> Exactly. I I
37:20>> And then one day he named you people
37:22Jamaicans. And then one day because you
37:25were in Jamaica, you heard that one
37:26black man in Ghana fought the British
37:29and got independence. Oh, look at Haiti
37:31did it. Oh, look at America. Let's also
37:32do it.
37:34>> Okay, you're very good. You did it. But
37:36you're trying to say that not trying but
37:39the understanding I had in the past also
37:41is because well when we did that we were
37:43supposed to go deep down deep down using
37:45what language.
37:48So if you compare American style with
37:50Jamaica or Haiti that's where the
37:52problem begins. That's why it's similar
37:54and uniform between the continent and
37:56even the Caribbean countries. We did not
37:59have listen what made the Greeks to be
38:03so
38:05painfully dug into their problems and
38:07the Romans and the English and the
38:08Americans is nothing.
38:11What allowed Leewan to do that with the
38:14Singaporeans is nothing. They had one
38:16single language that was rich with
38:20concepts
38:23which pour
38:25even the patch of 1950
38:31does not have anything. It's a limited
38:36language that only has only physical
38:39instructions. And I I I personally feel
38:42that we should have focused on English,
38:44but that's a separate discussion.
38:45>> That's a separate discussion. You're
38:47very right about that. But that also we
38:49require that the people you're talking
38:51about, exslaves
38:52who were taken from the continent have
38:54that sophistication of intellig.
38:59How would they know that? Unless their
39:00forefathers have written down books they
39:02have read. You see, so let's not limit
39:06that this very unique continent happened
39:09to be the only one Christopher think
39:11about it that has never whenever I put
39:13this on the internet oh they are Russian
39:16you are lying Africans had their way of
39:17writing but where is it now they say
39:20herography
39:22somebody drew a bird with a stone throw
39:25and somebody's giving a definition they
39:27call that alphabet it's not look it's
39:28not an insult we are the only race on
39:30the mother earth that never develop an
39:32alphabet to write language. Okay, that
39:35is why no single religious leader or
39:38religion original religion has ever come
39:39from any African country because to have
39:42a religion authentic I mean really you
39:44formed it you need a language to say God
39:46spoke to me and write it down so that's
39:49one we never had that you could not have
39:51philosophers come from a place if the
39:52place have no way of writing down
39:54language
39:58>> yeah and and
39:59>> so now you collected more than 30
40:01different tribes from a region in Africa
40:04and poor them in a farm
40:07in Jamaica within a short time. Do you
40:10know how short time it was before the
40:12Jamaicans began to ask for independence?
40:14Very short time.
40:16>> Um, compared to human existence.
40:18>> That's correct. Compared to humanity.
40:19>> And we and we think that technically
40:23it's a long time. But when you compare
40:25to human existence period
40:27>> from the time they were 200 years, 300
40:29years are not a very long time. you
40:32know, when you're talking about human or
40:35human evol.
40:35>> So, I'll take you back to something
40:37which I had said to my previous guest
40:40from Haiti.
40:41>> The time you were brought to the island,
40:43if anybody can mark that time about 16
40:45something, right?
40:46>> Yes. In the 1600s.
40:48>> 1600 there were Indians who were brought
40:50later on by the British as railway
40:52build. Chinese. So, the island has no
40:55language at this point. Yes.
40:57>> The Chinese were losing their language,
40:58the Indians, you said. All right. Now
41:01you see the problem already on that
41:02island.
41:03>> Many different people.
41:04>> That's correct. They ruled you and you
41:07never went to school
41:10until they the colonizers who then
41:12finally colonized you then build the
41:14first institute of institutions.
41:17>> Okay. You have to go back and look for
41:18when was the first school built in
41:20Jamaica and who went to that school? I
41:24um I think the first school I think it
41:26was the first prominent one I think it
41:30was Wulmer's.
41:31>> Okay.
41:31>> If if my memory serve me correct um I
41:33could be wrong.
41:35>> You're correct. It was built
41:37>> Mhm.
41:37>> by
41:39you know
41:40>> at that time you had the governors that
41:42were appointed by the monarch in that's
41:44correct in England and it it was built
41:46by that class of people to educate their
41:48children.
41:49>> In what year?
41:51>> I'm I'm I'm not certain. But it's 1900s.
41:53>> I think it was 1800. The late 1800
41:56>> 1800s. Okay.
41:57>> To serve their children so they can
41:59continue as they live on their identity.
42:00Okay. Let's say move it a 100 years.
42:02They started allowing Jamaicans to go to
42:04the school for only one thing only.
42:06>> Limited. Limited number.
42:07>> Limited number.
42:08>> They wanted to teach them instructional
42:09language. Yes.
42:10>> How drive my car go do this. Okay. Very
42:13limited. So we would say fullblown
42:16curriculum schools open in Jamaica will
42:19be somewhere let's say 1920.
42:23>> Yes. Yes. Around around that time
42:26>> 1920 to 2026 how many years ago?
42:29>> 20 106 years.
42:31>> 106 years. Do you think the first
42:35Jamaican to get into that school would
42:37learn a foreign language rich enough
42:40vocabulary concept understanding that
42:42you can give him a whole country and say
42:44use this language to run your country?
42:46>> No. And and and number one, the concepts
42:48were not ours.
42:49>> That's correct.
42:50>> So So um you're starting at you're
42:52starting at a deficit.
42:54>> That's correct. and and and
42:56at the foundation
42:59of the of the issue is
43:03there's there's a lack of understanding
43:04of what building is.
43:06>> Very good. So now let me go back to you
43:08>> where you said you don't I don't like
43:10calling it problem.
43:11>> Yes. Yes.
43:12>> Now up until now do you still want to
43:14call it a problem or the reality of the
43:17Jamaican?
43:17>> It's it's a reality.
43:18>> Exactly. [clears throat]
43:20where they were taken from how they were
43:22taken away when they came to the island
43:24when did formal education so they can
43:26use a language everybody can understand
43:28now you can't speak your different 30
43:30something African languages you can't in
43:32fact not that you can't the first
43:34generation slaves died with the language
43:36>> second generation we're picking Chinese
43:39Indian
43:41Spanish
43:41>> and also and also on the island when you
43:44go back and you look
43:48we were never one people that because um
43:53if you have say you have a say you have
43:56a gentleman from the UK and he has a
43:58plantation and say his name is Mr.
44:00Brown. You have the Brown plantation in
44:03Manchester. You have another gentleman
44:06from Scotland his name is Scott. He has
44:08a plantation in Saintan.
44:12Those are different people from
44:14different tribes.
44:16>> Yes. and and and and and then when
44:19independence
44:21is going to occur now you're asking all
44:23those people to come together to create
44:25a nation.
44:26>> That's correct.
44:26>> You run into problems.
44:28>> That's correct.
44:29>> And because outsiders who are not of our
44:32extraction, they see us and they think
44:34that we are one people and we are not.
44:37>> Even the Jamaicans think so.
44:38>> Exact.
44:39>> Even the Nigerians think so.
44:41>> And we keep saying it. We are brothers,
44:42one love, one unity. It's impossible. So
44:46now we have really properly diagnosed
44:48the problem. Okay. All right. Now you
44:53have been made the national minister of
44:56culture of Jamaica. So what is the first
44:59step you think you're going to introduce
45:01since now you've clearly understood what
45:03the problem is? No, I will call it a
45:05problem for the sake of the discussion.
45:06The reality of the black countries, not
45:08only Jamaica. So now you're the minister
45:10of culture of Jamaica. What is the first
45:13thing you're going to tackle to see this
45:15problem? What do you do with it?
45:17>> The first thing for me is we have to
45:20identify, we have to I will seek to gain
45:23consensus regarding what the problem is.
45:27>> Christopher, the reason they made you
45:28the cultural minister is because you
45:30came and convinced them you know the
45:31problem and you were able to do it the
45:33same way you've done on the show. So now
45:35consensus to say you want, you're never
45:37going to get it.
45:38>> Um,
45:39>> establish it is what they asking you.
45:41>> Okay.
45:41>> What is it? Okay. Let me ask you this
45:43question.
45:43>> My
45:44>> for the problem of not understanding the
45:46concept of building.
45:47>> Yes.
45:48>> Right.
45:51Go ahead.
45:54>> There is I want to touch on this a
45:56little bit cuz you there is a little
45:58dichotomy
45:59>> okay
45:59>> in our society at the moment because
46:03I don't know the percentage.
46:06You have a percentage of us. I I would
46:08put myself in it. I don't know if you
46:10will put yourself in it.
46:12we more adear we we we we look on the
46:15world through a more western lens.
46:18>> Okay.
46:20>> We don't like we don't like to think of
46:22of it that way but when you narrow it
46:24down that that's where it is.
46:25>> Yes, it's true.
46:26>> And I don't know the percentage of us.
46:29>> Okay.
46:30>> And you have another percentage of us
46:34who do not look on the world that way.
46:36>> Okay. So
46:42we're going to have a we're going to
46:43have to have a system either going to be
46:46it's going to be the western way or
46:48another way.
46:49>> You are the you are the minister of
46:51culture. Which one would you propose?
46:53>> I would adopt the western system.
46:54>> Okay. Explain.
46:55>> Um personally for me
47:00I don't look at the geographical
47:02location where systems um from where
47:04systems emanate. I look at the outcome
47:07>> and to me logic is logic irrespective of
47:11where it's from.
47:12>> So certain thing that are considered
47:14western I just consider it logic.
47:17>> Very good.
47:17>> For example, the scientific method
47:20>> I think currently it's a logic it's the
47:22most logical method.
47:23>> Explain when you said I will adopt the
47:25western system. Give me a quick
47:27description of how you will adopt it.
47:30You ask about the culture and say,
47:32"Okay, they want me to come in to fix to
47:35to implement my policy." So, so, so
47:40it's a mindset issue, [laughter]
47:42>> you know,
47:44it's really a mindset because
47:46>> I'm asking you.
47:47>> Yeah. Yeah. And I tell the audience
47:50because people are trying to learn from
47:51you. How would you adopt a western
47:54system?
47:58You said building is a concept.
48:01>> Yes.
48:02>> The man who has it has your original
48:05blueprint.
48:06>> Yes.
48:06>> Okay. So tell me how you'll adopt the
48:10western system. To fix what two things
48:13if you adopt the western system it would
48:15fix. What are those two things?
48:18>> Try to solve problem problems that we
48:21identify.
48:22>> Which one? um any any problems in
48:26society you have to be because for
48:27example
48:28>> let's take Jamaica for example okay you
48:30said if I'm the cultural minister I will
48:32adopt the western system
48:34two current problems that all Jamaicans
48:37are talking about that the western
48:38system will solve it
48:40>> we
48:43are concerned regarding
48:46the economic landscape the economy
48:49um doesn't satisfy um the wants and
48:52needs of those who have wants and needs.
48:55You know, um we we have students who
48:58graduate
48:59>> and they don't have jobs or the the
49:04degree that that they have um might not
49:08be conducive to the job that they they
49:10they have attained. Are you going to
49:13adopt a western economic theory
49:18or are you going to adopt western system
49:21by importing western goods?
49:23>> The western theory.
49:24>> Okay, [laughter]
49:26>> I should have a minute because it's all
49:27in the brain.
49:28>> I'm coming.
49:29>> The western economic theory.
49:31>> Yes.
49:34>> Is it an intellectual property or is it
49:38a physical property? It's it's an
49:40intellectual when you break it down.
49:42It's intellectual.
49:43>> So how would you how would you adopt it?
49:47>> Um it will not be immediate. Um it will
49:51be
49:53through dialogue
49:55>> where you know through through
49:56>> I'm saying are you going to replace the
49:59Jamaican people's intellectual
50:01understanding of something they don't
50:02have like the building as we said it.
50:04How are you going to replace something
50:06we don't have with something
50:11The issue is that many people don't know
50:14why.
50:15They know that they know that they know
50:17that their needs are not being met. They
50:19know that they compare Jamaica for
50:23example with the Cayman Islands or
50:25Barbados and they look at you know you
50:28have you have logical markers like GDP
50:31like you know HDI and educational output
50:35and you have Jamaicans who who say look
50:38>> and I'm not saying you're wrong but yes
50:40>> because this is so important this
50:41conversation see on one particular
50:44country but don't forget what you said
50:46from the beginning if I close my eyes
50:47and I speak to a Nigerian Ghanian
50:50saggales.
50:51>> I would have thought I was speaking to a
50:53Jamaican.
50:53>> Yes. Yes. Yes.
50:55>> Christopher is the problem. It's so
50:58uniform.
51:00Then you are really even though we are
51:01using Jamaica, you are rushing to the
51:03conclusion and to what you think will be
51:05the solution by saying I would I would
51:07import or adopt a western system. Maybe
51:10the word adopt you need to think about
51:12because I agree with you. But the
51:14question becomes what do you mean when
51:15you say you will adopt? of two million
51:17Jamaicans
51:19who in your country they don't have what
51:22we call the collective understanding of
51:25senses of value they don't in that they
51:27understand personal safety as compared
51:30to individual freedom okay
51:32>> how do you import and make sure you can
51:35replace the battery of each person's
51:38mind with this and then allow him to use
51:41it to do is that what you're talking
51:42about for how many thousands of years
51:44are you going to clone are you going to
51:45do it in a lab are you going do uh Elon
51:47Musk planting the chips in the people's
51:49head.
51:50>> That's a problem right there.
51:52>> But I see where your passion lies and
51:54you have solved much of the problem.
51:56Yes.
51:57>> Because you have helped really go to the
51:59root cause. That is where you stop.
52:02>> You are not going to be the one to come
52:04up with what would be the solution. Once
52:07you attempt that you're d and that's why
52:08people keep what's the solution. I never
52:10said I have a solution because what we
52:12don't do you set it right from the
52:14beginning. We failed to go deeper.
52:16>> Yes. Yes.
52:18>> Socrates all just what he did was just
52:20go deeper. He never came with a
52:22solution. It was a 100 years later
52:23somebody else came with a solution.
52:27Now my friend, if the concept is what we
52:30don't have because we are the only race
52:33that don't have a written language.
52:35Therefore, we don't write books.
52:37Therefore, we cannot have our own
52:39authentic physics, chemistry, and all
52:41these things.
52:44Then think and use a different word I
52:46will adopt by simply saying there could
52:49become countries on earth beginning from
52:522026
52:53where you will do the same thing you do
52:55in Jamaica if you were a rich man in
52:57Jamaica and you build a five-
52:59bedroomedroom villa are you going to be
53:01your own landscaper?
53:03No. Are you going to be your own nanny
53:05to your children? No. You would hire a
53:08driver a landscaper. And there are there
53:10are certain parishes in Jamaica where
53:12you know
53:13>> I get the good security guard. Which
53:16which which region in Jamaica would you
53:18get good security guard for your house?
53:21>> Uh maybe Kingston [laughter]
53:23because they they are a security problem
53:26up there.
53:26>> That's correct. Or maybe the temperament
53:28of the people would make them good
53:30security guards. Maybe a Kingston will
53:32not be a good driver for you. Maybe
53:34somebody from the country will be a good
53:35driver because of his temperament.
53:37>> Yes. The same thing is with the United
53:40States of America. What United States of
53:42America did to make this place this
53:44dynamic is that all they had was the
53:49land space.
53:50>> Yes. Yes.
53:51>> Okay. On which they created a culture.
53:55That culture of the United States white
53:57men says they know one thing we don't
53:59know. You want the most robust
54:02entertainment industry? Let the Jews
54:04come in. Don't touch it. Let them take
54:07it. You want the most robust retail
54:09industry, let the Chinese or Asians come
54:11in. You want the most robust financial
54:14sector, let the white boys from the M
54:17East of this country go in there. You
54:19want the most robust construction
54:21industry, give it to the Italians. So
54:23what would you do with your country?
54:25>> You have to allow people who can do the
54:27job.
54:28>> That's correct. And you will realize
54:32that when it come to the concept,
54:35none of it will be Jamaicans, but
54:37Jamaicans will be living the best lives
54:39just like Dubaians because you were able
54:42to convince the people to allow only
54:45based on merit.
54:49>> When when I look at
54:52Okay, I'm going to ask you a physic a
54:54straightforward practical question. You
54:57have not been able to even master and
54:59and manipulate the water systems of
55:01Jamaica for irrigation, production,
55:03energy. If you look around the European
55:06countries, which countries do you know
55:07uses water in that way? Almost all of
55:10them. Would you still import western
55:12system by relying on Jamaicans to do it?
55:15>> No.
55:16>> That's all I'm trying to say.
55:17>> Um
55:20there are some
55:22conflicts in our societies, right? and
55:25and the conflicts are leading us down a
55:28particular road because
55:31we we have certain institutions,
55:34we have people in them
55:36and then this is one of the reason why
55:39people will come to you and say for
55:41example
55:44certain things must be built and and
55:46then you you will say but no somebody is
55:49because for example
55:52a university
55:54right you have university and you have
55:56technical departments, engineering,
55:59computer science, whatnot. Let's say
56:01that university is in Ghana for example.
56:06The graduates from that university
56:11taking those subjects
56:15should be doing certain things in the
56:17country,
56:19right?
56:20But it's not being done and you you have
56:24laid out why they are not being done. So
56:28another question is
56:32okay the people are not
56:34cultured a particular way
56:38then that that university or that
56:40department should not exist
56:42because you you brought up a good point
56:44in Jamaica for example because
56:48I I I I tell my friends cuz we have
56:50these discussions a lot and I said look
56:55I don't see the point of having a
56:58technology department
57:00um at the university when we have to
57:02bring in the Chinese to build the roads,
57:04we have to bring in the French to to
57:05build the water network. What's the
57:08point of having I I I agree with you,
57:11but what's the point of having these
57:14institutions in the country when
57:17those graduates are not build are not
57:21building the system that we have to have
57:22to bring people in to build? Why do you
57:24think they're not building it?
57:29>> I'm not 100% arrive at that.
57:32>> The same thing is across West Africa. I
57:35>> I'm not I'm not 100% um you know there
57:39regarding the why
57:42you know why you have you have a you
57:44have a university you have a
57:49a department that have of a computer
57:51science department right? We have a a
57:54engineering department and when it is
57:57time to build a a piece of road
58:00we the work the the the people are
58:04building road to get them from outside.
58:06So I'm saying fine fine seen that
58:09>> fine get get them from outside I have no
58:11problem then we cannot have engineering
58:13department
58:14>> no we can have but I
58:17>> I see that
58:20you have a great understanding
58:23of the problem.
58:24>> Yes. Yeah.
58:25>> But you also are suffering coming to a
58:29conclusion about it.
58:31We said from the beginning culture is
58:34far more important before techn before
58:36politics.
58:36>> Yes. Yes.
58:37>> The schools you're describing were built
58:39because of political systems.
58:40>> Yes. Yes.
58:41>> A country needs a school.
58:42>> Yes.
58:42>> Okay. You don't study the people to say
58:45what type of of disposition these people
58:49have so we can build the schools to meet
58:51these these uh dispositions.
58:54But a country needs a school. The
58:56British had their children in that
58:58country and they need schools. So they
58:59build the schools and you ask your
59:01children go to the schools. It's just a
59:03function of
59:06but you're thinking that they went
59:07therefore they should have the ability
59:09to do something.
59:11>> No I I am saying okay
59:15>> you can still build the country by still
59:19having a techn technical department.
59:21Nobody said that you go to university to
59:23do exactly what you studied. There are
59:25people who went to universities to study
59:27chemistry and they are restaurant owners
59:29today.
59:30>> Yes. Yes.
59:31>> So that's fine. A a university is only
59:33for the for the enlightenment of of your
59:36intellect.
59:37>> But um aren't you concerned do you
59:39believe in um national self-esteem
59:43>> for for example um when I was coming on
59:46my way down they were working on the
59:48roads and I saw that
59:52Americans are building the roads. Mhm.
59:55Right. And
59:59that's supposed to be a good thing for
1:00:01America's self-esteem that the intellect
1:00:04is in the country to build a piece of
1:00:06road, right?
1:00:10And and and I could be wrong. Correct me
1:00:13if I'm wrong.
1:00:15But if every time something of that
1:00:20nature should be done,
1:00:22it has to come from outside.
1:00:27What does that argue for the self-esteem
1:00:28of that country?
1:00:30>> You don't have you're talking about
1:00:32self-esteem like everybody have a
1:00:34self-esteem just because you're a human
1:00:35being. We have said first we have said
1:00:38you
1:00:38>> no I'm probing. I don't I don't have any
1:00:40answers.
1:00:40>> First you have said what we call
1:00:43Jamaicans is just a name of a place.
1:00:45Yes.
1:00:46>> A physical location Jamaica and you say
1:00:49I'm a Jamaican. What does it mean?
1:00:52What does it mean?
1:00:53>> You have in the last election that that
1:00:56question came up.
1:00:57>> Self-esteem comes from first having a
1:00:59clear authentic identity of yourself.
1:01:02Language, history, and religion.
1:01:05Chinese self-esteem is not something you
1:01:08just throw on everybody. So if you say
1:01:10I'm Jamaican inside the mind of the
1:01:12Jamaican, what is he or she referring to
1:01:14when they say I'm a Jamaican? She simply
1:01:16say I'm from Jamaica meaning a physical
1:01:19location in the Caribbean that was
1:01:20created by British and my great
1:01:22great-grandfathers came there and I was
1:01:23born there. You have no ties to the
1:01:26place Christopher. So what is the
1:01:27self-esteem whether Chinese build the
1:01:29road for you or not? What about some
1:01:30what about um someone from
1:01:35because I think you you talk about
1:01:38um in say Ghana how you would have run
1:01:42it or how how you would have done it is
1:01:45that it's like each tribe would have
1:01:47their se their tribal government and
1:01:50it's like a it's like a federal system
1:01:52but a tribal federal system. Correct me
1:01:54if I'm wrong but that's your theory.
1:01:56>> Yeah. Um, which I I like because I I
1:02:00like how America is set up.
1:02:02>> Um,
1:02:04now in the Euroba part
1:02:10they will have a Euroba identity and it
1:02:13will be structured around them.
1:02:14>> Mhm.
1:02:15Do you believe in the concept of
1:02:19say
1:02:22when say children see I've heard this
1:02:25before when children see like people in
1:02:28your community doing certain things it
1:02:31it influences
1:02:32>> influence man so so so
1:02:35>> if let's say your system exists
1:02:38>> Mhm. and you have the Euroba Euroba um
1:02:41state and it will be based on tribe for
1:02:43example.
1:02:45>> Would you then
1:02:47advocate
1:02:50for
1:02:53Yuroba engineers, Euroba software?
1:02:55>> No, you're going far ahead of yourself.
1:02:58[laughter]
1:02:58>> When I talk about Traba Nation, the
1:03:01first concern I have is not
1:03:02infrastructure building or economic
1:03:04development or anything like that. First
1:03:06and foremost is your safety and
1:03:08selfidentity. The rest would follow.
1:03:10This is the problem I was telling the
1:03:12the previous guest. We like to rush to
1:03:16the solution too quickly
1:03:18>> because
1:03:18>> No,
1:03:19>> no, no. I'm I'm telling you why.
1:03:20>> Engineers, let me tell you something. A
1:03:22kid born in Dubai may not have seen a
1:03:25Dubaian gynecologist or medical doctor.
1:03:28Do you know who are the predominant
1:03:30medical doctors in Saudi Arabia or
1:03:32foreigners?
1:03:33>> Yes. Do you know who are the engineers
1:03:34in Dubai today who build that massive
1:03:37playground for the rich
1:03:39>> all Europeans? Does that make the Dubai
1:03:41not to have self-esteem? No. In fact, if
1:03:44you meet him right now, you have
1:03:46dreadlocks and regga music and all that.
1:03:48He doesn't have anything. But still, he
1:03:50will stand in front of you and say I'm a
1:03:51Dubai based on what? Identity.
1:03:55>> Yes.
1:03:55>> Okay. So, forget about engineers to
1:03:57build Eurobalan. If I tell you that by
1:04:00nature of where they are located, they
1:04:02can never have engineers. So their
1:04:03country can never be built. It can be
1:04:05no. But but you see
1:04:08um
1:04:10after China solved this issue, the
1:04:12cultural problems in the 70s and China
1:04:14was unified on the one language that Mao
1:04:17implemented.
1:04:18Um, one of the steps that
1:04:22was taken was to send
1:04:26um certain Chinese intellectuals.
1:04:29>> No, you are still putting the card
1:04:30before the horse. Who founded China?
1:04:33>> Modern China.
1:04:34>> No, China as a country. Chinese.
1:04:37>> Yes.
1:04:38>> Who founded Jamaica?
1:04:40>> I mean,
1:04:41>> who founded Nigeria? Who founded Benin?
1:04:44You see, be careful with the comparison
1:04:46I keep saying all the time. You see, you
1:04:48went back to China, something authentic
1:04:51within them is so different from you and
1:04:53from me and from the Nigerians.
1:04:56So whether they send their engineers
1:04:58abroad or not, when they were living to
1:05:00go abroad, they have China. When they
1:05:03look at themselves, they saw China. When
1:05:04they look at the other guy, they saw
1:05:05China. Can you say the same thing about
1:05:07Jamaica? No. About Nigeria? No. So you
1:05:10can send all the Nigerians to God's
1:05:13university to study engineering and come
1:05:16back and the country will remain same.
1:05:18You have a you have a good point because
1:05:21um I always wonder you have Nigerian
1:05:25brain surgeons all over the place.
1:05:27Nigerian and
1:05:29they they don't go back and and and and
1:05:32develop
1:05:33>> because the reason you see them
1:05:35succeeding as a brain surgeon is because
1:05:37they have an ecosystem here in which
1:05:38they have been taught can work.
1:05:40>> They go home patients are going to be
1:05:42dying in the in the same guy's hands.
1:05:47I am telling us I'm telling us this is a
1:05:50very important topic we should keep
1:05:52repeating but guys stop rushing to oh we
1:05:56must have a better economic system it
1:05:58never build any place in fact none of of
1:06:01the of the western countries was built
1:06:03on that rush we want this first to look
1:06:05in and deep down and it could take the
1:06:08next 10 years you had a conversation
1:06:10this person had a the next thing you
1:06:12know kids are moving towards what I
1:06:14heard Christopher said made sense Who am
1:06:16I as a Jamaican? I never build this
1:06:18country.
1:06:18>> I think one of the reason why this is
1:06:21coming up, the whole rushing is because
1:06:23of the dichotomy I talk about. You you
1:06:26have a certain a certain number of us. I
1:06:28don't know the percentage who are who
1:06:30are right where you want to get to
1:06:32already and and that rushing is coming
1:06:34from
1:06:35>> all they should do is what was done in
1:06:37the other
1:06:39thought provocative societies. They just
1:06:42simply asked the questions
1:06:44and they repeated it. That's all. And
1:06:47they wrote it down in books. Okay. What
1:06:49about um
1:06:55on like certain things are going to be
1:06:57running a parallel you know oil is going
1:07:00to say say oil is discovered in a
1:07:03particular location say in Benin your
1:07:06lovely country where where you're from.
1:07:08say oil is discovered, right? Um
1:07:14until until certain things are dealt
1:07:16with on a cultural level, Benny will
1:07:19have to maximize the potential of that
1:07:22oil.
1:07:23>> Mhm. So, so a person like you
1:07:29will have to
1:07:32will have an idea of how that
1:07:36how should that be dealt with when you
1:07:38look at for example in Niger for example
1:07:40>> yeah go on that go on that question
1:07:42>> yes
1:07:44one of the problems I have identified is
1:07:46that in many African countries
1:07:51industry stop at the raw material level
1:07:56where raw material is exported.
1:07:57>> Yeah.
1:07:58>> Now
1:08:00subsequent generations
1:08:03you know I criticize Cor and Kuma for
1:08:05but people don't like it but but I can
1:08:07talk privately about that. um
1:08:11subsequent generations have realized
1:08:13that that's inadequate
1:08:15you know value must be added right
1:08:18>> okay
1:08:19>> so
1:08:21those people
1:08:24what
1:08:26how do you advise those people to deal
1:08:28with the resources that exist
1:08:30>> the oil
1:08:31>> yes
1:08:34when when the Middle Eastern countries
1:08:36discovered oil
1:08:38they know their history. They can
1:08:40manipulate a horseback.
1:08:42>> Yes.
1:08:42>> A camel back.
1:08:43>> Okay. They never built cars. Do you know
1:08:45any Saudi Arabian made car?
1:08:47>> No.
1:08:47>> Okay. Where is car made?
1:08:50>> Europe.
1:08:50>> Europe.
1:08:51>> Okay. So those who made cars must know
1:08:52something about the oil. Why don't you
1:08:54just go and invite them to come and take
1:08:56care of this liquid?
1:08:57>> Yes. Um
1:08:58>> so why would you wait on the Beninua
1:08:59from Benin to say one day he can take
1:09:02care of oil?
1:09:03>> Yes. But you're going to bring that
1:09:06person into say maybe take care of take
1:09:10care of but how it is taken care of has
1:09:13to be has to be dealt on a government
1:09:14level because you're going to have to
1:09:16have a government policy around
1:09:17>> the same thing. The same thing do you
1:09:20wait when it come to deal making which
1:09:22countries do you think make proper deals
1:09:24with each other? Europe. So why don't
1:09:26you invite them to help you make it a
1:09:28deal? How can you make a deal about
1:09:30something you have no clue about? Oil.
1:09:33You think the Saudis made a deal on
1:09:34themselves? No.
1:09:37Didn't you see Trump took 25 executives
1:09:40to go to Saudi Arabia recently to make a
1:09:42deal?
1:09:46You see, this is what is wrong with us.
1:09:50We think because Europe and everybody
1:09:54who develop is able to do it and take
1:09:55care of their own things, we we also
1:09:58should have the same capability. So
1:10:00Christopher I I we are on the same road.
1:10:05However, I happen to be a fundamentalist
1:10:08meaning for me I go deep down the root
1:10:11cause. Without it I have never seen
1:10:14anywhere where any problem has ever been
1:10:16solved. And that is what affecting the
1:10:18black race around the world. You know
1:10:21what is affecting us is that we think
1:10:24just because everybody else have done it
1:10:27we also should be able to do it because
1:10:29for us doing is a status that's not true
1:10:32at all. If we continue with that we are
1:10:36putting the card before the horse. It
1:10:38will never allow us to look within
1:10:40identify our strength and then know who
1:10:44are the best partners to have.
1:10:48We have already rejected Europe and turn
1:10:50to China. But that is setting ourselves
1:10:53120 years back because that is not
1:10:55partnership.
1:10:57All I'm saying is this. The things we
1:10:59are saying we've not been able to do
1:11:01because of politics and politicians is
1:11:03not true. We need to look at who we are
1:11:05and ask only one question. Singapore,
1:11:08South Korea, Japan, Europe, what do we
1:11:10black people have in common with them
1:11:12that will make us think if they have
1:11:14done it, we should also do it. We have
1:11:16nothing in common with them. Language,
1:11:18homogeneity, religion and history.
1:11:22>> I completely agree. You know um
1:11:26you know I I think before the
1:11:28development
1:11:30you know we have to hammer out who we
1:11:31are, what are our um potential assets
1:11:37liabilities
1:11:39um you know certain things are built in
1:11:41on a cultural level.
1:11:42>> That's correct. you know um system A or
1:11:45system B implementing it is not going to
1:11:47solve the problem at all you know and um
1:11:50>> not at all. So you were very right with
1:11:52the topic you picked that politics would
1:11:54never ever solve any black country's
1:11:57problems never because what we are
1:11:59talking about is culture and legislation
1:12:01and politics never ever changes or
1:12:04install culture.
1:12:06>> Yes. You know
1:12:06>> Christopher we haven't ended. Please if
1:12:09you can drive 2 hours next time come
1:12:11let's continue with this conversation. I
1:12:13think this is the beginning of it for
1:12:14the young minds.
1:12:15>> Yes.
1:12:16>> Thank you very much.
1:12:18>> And guys subscribe follow us.
1:12:22>> If you're interested in my plug-in my
1:12:24WordPress plugin describer is d
1:12:28c r i r. You can go to wordpress.org and
1:12:33download it. You can find me here on
1:12:35YouTube at the economy. Um, and [music]
1:12:38you know, we can chop it up.
1:12:40>> Thank you very much. I'll make sure we
1:12:41spell it on the screen.
1:12:42>> Yes.

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