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Bistro Libertés spécial Gilets Jaunes — Transcript

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0:13Welcome to Bistro Liberté, the free
0:15and non-conformist debate. On the
0:17program for this episode. As fuel
0:23prices soar and purchasing power
0:26plummets, the Yellow Vests are called
0:30to mobilize next Saturday. Eight years
0:34after shaking the powers that be, are
0:36we witnessing the movement's return? To
0:39discuss it, Éric Morio has put
0:41together a dream panel for this special
0:44Yellow Vest Bistro Liberté. I call
0:47upon Maxime Nicole, alias Fly Rider, a
0:50former soldier. He participated in the
0:53launch of the Yellow Vest movement,
0:55becoming one of its official
0:56spokespersons. He would eventually file
0:59complaints for death threats,
1:01harassment, and defamation. Let’s
1:04warmly welcome François Boulo, a
1:06former lawyer. He was one of the
1:09spokespersons for the Yellow Vest
1:10movement from its very inception. A
1:132019 poll placed him far ahead among
1:16the representatives of the movement.
1:20Let’s give a triumphant welcome to
1:21Étienne Chouard, the father of the
1:23Citizens 'Initiative Referendum. He is
1:26a Yellow Vest icon, whether you
1:27classify him as a leftist or rightist
1:29populist, it matters little. He is a
1:32significant adversary of globalism. A
1:35thunderous round of applause for Juan
1:37Branco. This legal star is one of the
1:40closest advisors to WikiLeaks and
1:42Julian Assange. Even though he was
1:44barely 24 years old at the time. He
1:46participated in the Yellow Vest
1:48movement and defended figures of the
1:50movement in court, including Maxime
1:51Nicole. He is a candidate for the 2027
1:55presidential election. Alright, let’s
1:57get started. There you have it, you
2:08understand, this is a historic
2:09broadcast—we can say it—an event
2:11broadcast that we are offering you
2:12tonight, since we have managed to bring
2:14together, let’s say, all the key
2:15figures of the Yellow Vests. And it is
2:17possible—we hope, in any case—that
2:20we will be joined during the show by
2:22Jérôme Rodrigues, who is currently at
2:24the protests. And speaking of which, we
2:27also want to thank a wonderful audience
2:29that is very large this evening. As I
2:35was telling you, while tensions are
2:36rising everywhere in France with the
2:38anger of high school students, on
2:39Saturday, the youth are set to be
2:41joined in the streets by a much broader
2:42anger, as fuel prices soar and
2:44purchasing power plummets at the
2:45highest levels of the state. Emmanuel
2:47Macron and his government remain deaf
2:49to the exasperation sweeping the
2:51country. Faced with promises that went
2:53unfulfilled, the Yellow Vests are
2:55therefore called to mobilize next
2:57Saturday. Eight years after shaking the
2:59powers that be, can the movement resume
3:01over the long term? Because even if the
3:03anger of the streets has faded, the
3:04fire is still smoldering. Distrust has
3:06set in, fractures have widened, and
3:08fed-up-ness has become widespread.
3:10Enough to provoke a wave of anger of a
3:11scale perhaps never before seen. It
3:13will only take a single spark to set
3:15the powder keg ablaze. Faced with calls
3:18to protest, can the government still
3:19contain the streets? Can the French
3:21people make the institutions tremble
3:22once again? And above all, is civil war
3:25at our doorstep? So, first question, I
3:28will address it to you, dear Juan
3:29Branco. You are a presidential
3:31candidate, you launched your movement,
3:33The Hives, with the stated ambition of
3:35deeply transforming how our
3:36institutions function. RIC, recall of
3:39elected officials, a new constitution,
3:40and parliamentary reform. A large part
3:43of your proposals directly echo the
3:45demands raised by the Yellow Vests. Do
3:47you sense any fervor surrounding your
3:49platform?
3:50>> In any case, we are preparing for a
3:51break, by whatever means necessary,
3:53whether it be by election or by
3:54revolution. That was the lesson of the
3:57Yellow Vests: that we had to prepare a
3:59sort of common programmatic basis that
4:01would build consensus between people
4:03who, for some, came from the far left,
4:05for others from the far right,
4:06royalists, anti-fascists, and who, at a
4:09given moment, converged on the need to
4:11topple this power and offer the people
4:13the instruments of their sovereignty.
4:15So, particularly elements that were
4:17popularized by Étienne Chouard, such
4:19as the citizen initiative referendum,
4:20and imperative and revocatory mandates.
4:22And from that base, in fact, build—
4:25well, that is the meaning of the
4:27movement we launched—well, a
4:28megaphone that allows, whether
4:30electorally or also in the context of
4:32the confrontations we are bound to
4:35reach in the days and weeks to come,
4:37because the other lesson from the
4:39Yellow Vests is that we have matured
4:41since then, we have survived, we have
4:43all lost something. François Boulot
4:46has hung up his robe. Maxime Nicole has
4:50lived through very difficult situations
4:52, both intimate and personal, with life
4:54conditions that weren't easy because of
4:57what happened during that movement.
4:59Jérôme Rodrigues, who has the courage
5:01to go demonstrate, to be out
5:02demonstrating, lost an eye. They tried
5:05to steal my privacy, my profession. We
5:07have all lost a lot, and I think that
5:09collectively, what we told ourselves
5:11when high school students started
5:13taking the baton, was above all: how
5:15can we protect them? How can we ensure
5:19that these kids don't end up on the
5:21front lines, as we have started to see,
5:23losing a hand in confrontations with
5:24the police, and how, this time, can we
5:26succeed in triggering a turning point?
5:30And the lesson, perhaps, of the Yellow
5:32Vests, is that it must be built; that
5:34after the initial excitement, after the
5:36confrontation with power and the show
5:38of force we can muster, we aren't paid
5:40to do what we do. We don't earn any
5:43money; we lose things. They, on the
5:44other hand, pay people to repress us
5:46and shut us down. So, we have to be
5:49smart in how we carry out this dynamic
5:51and this confrontation. And so, there
5:54is the street aspect, and alongside it,
5:56this presidential election, because we
5:57told ourselves we had to try everything
5:59. We discovered it took us three months
6:02to get a campaign account, and they
6:03capped our monthly credit card spending
6:05for the presidential campaign at €
6:07300. You see, we are discovering
6:10everything that explains why there are
6:12no sincere, worthy political
6:13representatives in this country,
6:14because everything is designed to crush
6:16you the moment you propose something
6:18different. And that also allows us to
6:21nourish and provide explanations to
6:22citizens, telling them: "Well look,
6:24these are the obstacles we face when we
6:25play the game, and that's why it might
6:27be legitimate to take to the streets
6:28and find other ways of doing things."
6:31In any case, I forgot to introduce him
6:32earlier. I ask for a round of applause,
6:35and please excuse me, for Ignas, our
6:37caricaturist who will be drawing your
6:38portrait during the show. So, I was
6:41saying, you want to establish a
6:43Citizens' Initiative Referendum on all
6:45matters. Actually, we have Étienne
6:48Chouard with us. Actually, Étienne,
6:50it’s interesting because we know to
6:52what extent you are the source of this
6:53RIC. Why does the people have no power
6:56today? Because we have been conditioned
6:59to confuse the words "elect" and "vote.
7:01" To vote is to decide, and to elect is
7:04to renounce deciding. When I elect, I
7:07put someone's name in a ballot box and
7:08I accept that they will be the one
7:10voting for everything. And since we are
7:13used to saying since we were little, "
7:15What did you do last weekend? Did you
7:18go vote?" But no, you didn't go vote,
7:20you went to elect, you went to renounce
7:21voting. And this central trick, it's
7:24more than just a trick. It is a
7:27mechanism that prevents us from
7:28thinking. It prevents us from thinking
7:31that what we really need is to vote, is
7:32to decide for ourselves. In fact, we
7:34live in a regime in which we decide
7:36nothing at all. I see us as political
7:38prisoners.
7:38>> He goes far enough in your opinion,
7:40Abanca.
7:41>> He goes far, that's good. And I think
7:43that if we talked about it, we could go
7:45even a little further. I think that
7:47regarding the constituent process, we
7:48should talk about it because it seems
7:50to me that the constituent process must
7:52absolutely be popular. We must not
7:53elect the constituent assembly. I think
7:55that if there is one thing I can leave
7:57behind, if I were to disappear, this
7:59idea must not be forgotten, the rest
8:01will follow. We must write the
8:03constitution ourselves. We must not
8:04elect the constituent assembly and
8:06everything else will follow. In fact,
8:08if we aren't everywhere on the ground,
8:10if we don't have political power, it's
8:12because for now we have never bothered
8:14to institute this popular power
8:15ourselves. You saw that Richard Ferrand
8:17made headlines earlier this week. I
8:19don't know if you all saw it, I believe
8:21on that, Ran Branco. Uh, is there a
8:23risk? Yes. So, there is a dynamic, we
8:25must all be aware of it. The president
8:28of the Constitutional Council who was
8:30elected with the support of the
8:31National Rally, or rather thanks to the
8:33National Rally, thanks to the
8:34abstention of the National Rally,
8:36announced that in his opinion, in fact,
8:37where does our presidential candidacy
8:39come from? It is born from the fact
8:42that the President of the Republic,
8:44through Article 11 of the Constitution,
8:47can propose referendums to the French
8:49people on any subject related to the
8:51organization of public powers. So, for
8:54us, in fact, it is the possibility of
8:55carrying out a legal coup d'état,
8:57meaning we exit the party regime, we
8:58exit the permanent and endless
9:00negotiations on: "Do we agree on such
9:01and such a point?" with all the
9:04manipulations that exist, media-related
9:05and otherwise, and we give the floor
9:07directly to the French people, and we
9:09do it on what? on the RIC, the
9:12imperative and revocatory mandate,
9:13those are basic reforms and then on
9:15membership in the European Union and
9:17NATO, which are the external
9:18determinants of our sovereignty. That
9:21is our strategy. Now Richard Ferrand,
9:23what did he just say? That according to
9:26him, Article 11 of the Constitution
9:28does not allow for changing the
9:30Constitution itself. Which goes
9:32completely against the very words of
9:33Charles de Gaulle, who is after all the
9:35one who had this constitution adopted.
9:37But the goal is to prevent us from
9:39being able to adopt RICs and so on. Why
9:41? Because he wants us to go through, uh
9:43, the other article of the Constitution
9:45, which forces him to go through the
9:47National Assembly and the Senate, and
9:49therefore to return to the party system
9:51, to set off again for years and years
9:53of negotiation, and so on. And in
9:55reality, uh, well, obviously, we know
9:56very well that it won't lead anywhere.
9:58So there is, there is, there is—they
10:00feel the danger coming from the other
10:02side, and they are trying to
10:04preventively stop it.
10:05>> There is truly a danger. Yeah. Oh, in
10:07any case, we are—we do not have a
10:09constitution. The text we call a
10:11constitution, which should be a
10:12protection, is actually a political
10:14prison in which we decide nothing and
10:16in which the political actors have
10:17literally freed themselves from all
10:19control. They have made themselves
10:21autonomous. De Gaulle did not want a
10:22Constitutional Council. They twisted
10:24his arm to have a tiny one. It remained
10:26tiny as long as he was there, without
10:28power. And as soon as de Gaulle left,
10:30the power, the Constitutional Council
10:32became autonomous because there is
10:33nothing in the Constitution that
10:34prevents it from becoming autonomous,
10:36because there is no recourse against
10:38the Constitutional Council. In fact, we
10:39are sinking into a government by judges
10:41, which is one of the pitfalls that
10:42must absolutely be avoided. It’s not
10:46just the government by judges that is
10:47dangerous in a Constitution; in fact,
10:48all powers are dangerous. And what is
10:50very important in a Constitution, and
10:52we are the only ones, we the
10:54represented, we the simple citizens, we
10:56are the only ones capable of writing
10:58real checks for every power. We need
11:00powers; powers, we need them. We need
11:02representatives. There are too many of
11:04us for a real direct democracy. But
11:06these representatives, they must fear
11:07something. They must fear a text that
11:09is above them and that they must not be
11:10able to touch. Yet today, they
11:12themselves modify—the representatives
11:14themselves modify the rules of their
11:16own power, their own checks, which
11:18explains why they are out of control
11:20and which explains our powerlessness.
11:23So in fact, there is really a
11:24constituent reflection to be carried
11:25out if we want to change things, if we
11:27want a better world. We really must
11:29have a constituent reflection where we
11:31rise above legislative problems. And at
11:33the constituent level, it will be much
11:35easier to fraternize. We will realize
11:36that people on the left and the right
11:38have the same—have the same problems.
11:39We have a common cause. We have a
11:41common cause. We need a political power
11:43to defend ourselves against the
11:44scoundrels of the moment, against the
11:46dominant of the moment. We need a
11:48political power and we are the only
11:49ones capable of instituting this power.
11:51Therefore, we must learn how to
11:52institute it. And this common cause, I
11:54think it should be defended. We
11:56defended it at the time of the Yellow
11:57Vests. The Yellow Vests in their
11:59demands had a whole crowd, about sixty
12:01legislative demands like all peasant
12:03uprisings in the world. Well, we needed
12:05lower taxes, uh, higher wages, and we
12:07were there begging our masters as all
12:09humans on earth do, begging our masters
12:11to be less cruel. But among the demands
12:14, there was the RIC, which is a
12:15constituent demand, a demand for
12:17sovereignty. There, when we when we ask
12:19for the RIC, we ask for it at the
12:21beginning because we haven't understood
12:22that we will never get it from our
12:24rulers. But after that, they understood
12:26that we had to will it. And to will is
12:27something else than to ask. Even to
12:29demand is still to ask. To will, that
12:32is truly the anthropological mutation,
12:34a mutation in and that which should
12:36spread throughout all of humanity. We
12:39must will to decide. So we must rise
12:43above the legislators and the Yellow
12:45Vests clearly understood this message
12:48when they became proponents of the RIC
12:50in all matters and written by ourselves
12:53. So that was really very important.
12:55The roundabouts were becoming
12:56constituent. It was major, these were
12:57roundabouts that didn't block, so they
12:59remained popular at the very beginning,
13:01the original Yellow Vests there. And
13:03then, uh, there was a piece of advice
13:05they didn't hear, which was that it was
13:07necessary, I think, on every roundabout
13:09, students should hear, students,
13:10listen to me, just give me 30 seconds.
13:13The rebels of today everywhere on earth
13:16should think about instituting the
13:18constitution of the roundabout. I say
13:21roundabout, you understand that if it's
13:22a toll booth, it's the same thing. The
13:23political collective must institute its
13:26power and the rules of power before
13:28making the slightest decision. If you
13:30let a power-thief install themselves
13:32first, they will prevent you from
13:33writing your constitution. So we really
13:35must, and there people didn't hear it
13:37because they already had to integrate
13:38the RIC. Well, it turns out it didn't
13:39happen. I hope that this time the
13:42students, school by school, strike
13:44location by strike location, the
13:46farmers, the truckers, on every
13:48political point, we must learn to write
13:51a constitution. very briefly a
13:53constitution that says how we fire, how
13:54we appoint the people who will
13:56represent us, how we fire them when
13:57we're not happy, how we keep power, and
13:58how we change the rules of the game.
14:00>> François Boulot, you are a lawyer. I
14:05mean, you are a lawyer like RCO, do you
14:07share the same analysis of this looming
14:08danger?
14:10>> Well, I think we all share the
14:11assessment that we need radicalism
14:13simply because we are dealing with a
14:15power that has radicalized itself.
14:17>> A need for radicalism?
14:18>> Of course. That is actually what we are
14:19hearing. We are radical simply because
14:21there is a power that has radicalized,
14:23that has confiscated our power. It’s
14:25very clear. When we vote, well, the
14:27votes are not respected. It was the
14:302005 referendum, and the 2024
14:31legislative elections. I mean, Macron
14:34has had no legitimacy to continue his
14:35policy since 2024. There are two-thirds
14:37of the country that...
14:38>> How far does this radicalism go?
14:39Because...
14:40>> I'm getting to that, but simply put,
14:42two-thirds of the country have said
14:43they no longer want this policy. So
14:44they split their votes between the
14:46National Rally and the left, but in
14:47principle, we shouldn't have Macronist
14:49policy anymore. We got it anyway. And
14:51when people demonstrate, as we all know
14:53, we send the police and we send, we
14:55send them to repress. And so I mean,
14:58there is, I wouldn't want to miss the
15:00moment; we are in a moment of movement,
15:02of bubbling tension. There is a high
15:03school movement that has exploded.
15:05There are people ready to join the
15:06historic Yellow Vests and others, I
15:08hope, but we are hearing calls to
15:10action. And I want to tell everyone who
15:12turns up their nose, who says "Oh yes,
15:14but isn't this being co-opted? Yes, but
15:17the youth, etc." Wait, at some point,
15:19you have to be consistent. Movements
15:21like this are windows of opportunity,
15:23you can't miss them. And if you think
15:25it's not the time to mobilize now, I
15:27can tell you, you are making a big
15:28mistake because if you think what we
15:30are currently experiencing justifies
15:31anger, you haven't seen anything yet.
15:34What awaits us tomorrow is a chainsaw
15:36massacre because they have blown up the
15:38deficit like never before. They have
15:40put the situation, well, France in a
15:42position of financial strangulation for
15:43the future. Every year now, the debt
15:45burden will increase. We are talking
15:47about more than 125 billion euros in
15:49interest by 2030. It means that
15:50literally, since they have no intention
15:52of changing their policy, what they are
15:54going to do is keep picking our pockets
15:55. But until now, it was just little
15:57shavings here and there on healthcare,
15:59unemployment, pensions, and inflation.
16:02But get ready for the Javier Milei
16:03chainsaw. Tomorrow, what they're going
16:06to do is lower retirement pensions,
16:07lower civil servant salaries; they
16:09won't just close beds, they won't just
16:10cut beds, they'll close hospitals. That
16:12is what is going to happen. That is
16:14what awaits us tomorrow. So if we don't
16:16move now, well, maybe tomorrow it will
16:18already be too late. And I really want
16:20people to hear that. Don't hold your
16:22nose. When there is a social movement,
16:24it is extraordinary enough, spectacular
16:26enough, and historic enough not to miss
16:28it. So, also with us is Maxime Nicole.
16:31Thank you for joining us. For three
16:33weeks, a portion of the French youth
16:35has been in the streets protesting
16:37against teaching conditions in high
16:39schools: demonstrations, blockades,
16:40violence, and clashes with law
16:42enforcement. What is your take on this
16:44mobilization?
16:46>> Um, first, I would just like to answer
16:47a question you mentioned. You asked the
16:49question, wondering how far it will
16:51radicalize? How far is the State ready
16:55to be radical? That is the question.
16:57How far will the State push people to
16:59defend themselves? Today, we see young
17:01people who I think have, um,
17:04>> Is the youth right to block the schools
17:06, for all of you there?
17:08>> Well, I have a question to answer yours
17:10. When you are young and between 10 and
17:1315 years old, and you see your father
17:15or mother who is a nurse getting beaten
17:17with batons during a protest, or if you
17:19have a father or mother who is a police
17:21officer being completely
17:22instrumentalized by a government,
17:23facing psychological pressure, pressure
17:25from hierarchical advancement, etc.,
17:27when you see your parents in every
17:29profession that has protested in the
17:31last 10 years coming home either with
17:32suicidal thoughts or actually
17:34committing suicide, hey, because that
17:36happens in every line of work and it's
17:38on the rise, with a skyrocketing
17:40suicide rate, with a skyrocketing
17:42depression rate even among the young.
17:45When you've lived through that for the
17:47last 10 years and you enter a system
17:50that's supposed to raise you, meaning
17:52to educate you, to instruct you, and
17:54it's 8 degrees outside, it's January,
17:57there are three teachers out of 18—
17:59I'm exaggerating, but there are absent
18:01teachers, classes that aren't held,
18:04learning conditions that are more than
18:06abysmal. And on top of that, you're
18:10told your future is practically sealed.
18:14Because you've seen what's been
18:15happening for 10 years. You see what is
18:17being destroyed little by little, you
18:19realize that ultimately, the state's
18:20only response to people expressing
18:22their dissatisfaction isn't political
18:23—that's not possible. It isn't
18:25legislative, that's not possible. It
18:27isn't constitutional, that's not
18:28possible. It is militarized, and I'm
18:32not even mincing my words. It is
18:35militarized because we deploy a police
18:38force that we use, that we arm with
18:40weapons of war. Tear gas is banned in
18:43times of war. The LBD40 is a weapon of
18:46war sold by Switzerland. We fund
18:48armored vehicles weighing several tons,
18:51I believe they're 12 tons each. And
18:54there, on the other hand, 800 million
18:55euros to order 90 armored vehicles.
18:57Suddenly, the magic money comes out
18:59without any problem. We would have
19:00liked the same thing, for example, for
19:02firefighting planes, for hospital beds,
19:03for pensions, for heated classrooms for
19:05students, and so on. So, are they right
19:07? I understand them being in the
19:09streets, and I think they are right to
19:11be in the streets because their future
19:12—we were supposed to promise them a
19:14future as adults. We are supposed to
19:16protect our children and take care of
19:17our elders. Well, we aren't capable of
19:19doing both. And the people who are in
19:20the streets today would like to be able
19:22to succeed in doing that. So, obviously
19:24I follow you on that and I support them
19:26. But should we stop those who want to
19:27go to class from going to class, Branco
19:29?
19:30>> Well, they need to have teachers to be
19:32able to go to class. I was a substitute
19:35teacher twice in the Créteil academy
19:37to help out when I was 22 and 26. Each
19:41time, they hadn't had classes for two
19:42months. And I'm talking about 10 and 7
19:45years ago. So the problem has been
19:48going on for years. There are high
19:49schools where you find yourself for
19:51several months without classes when
19:52you're in your final year of
19:53specialization. So, when you are
19:56already a survivor of the school system
19:58, when you come from, whether it be the
20:00provinces, from areas that are rather
20:02agricultural, and so on, and you are
20:04far from school, or whether it be from
20:06working-class neighborhoods in big
20:07cities, and you reach the final year of
20:09high school, it’s not easy. You are
20:13already part of a minority within your
20:14generation. People don't necessarily
20:16realize that. And so you find yourself,
20:19after having made that effort, after
20:21having that pride in having been able
20:23to enter this republican institution,
20:25with, for several months, while you
20:27have a coefficient nine exam waiting
20:29for you at the end of the year, empty
20:31classrooms: 1 month, 2 months, 3 months
20:33, and you have no way to acquire
20:35knowledge. Now, with artificial
20:37intelligence, that will change, but
20:38that is also one of the great anxieties
20:40and one of the great challenges of our
20:41time. To what extent the state
20:44institution is completely detached and
20:46actually doesn't move in the face of a
20:48knowledge and technological revolution
20:51that is just as important and much
20:53faster than the invention of the
20:55printing press was. We are in the
20:57process of completely transforming our
20:58civilization. Kids see it because they
21:00are growing up with it. Kids who are in
21:02vocational high school are already
21:04starting to not find work because we
21:06are not between...Large companies are
21:07no longer hiring because they know,
21:09they are replacing human jobs with, uh,
21:11with jobs powered by artificial
21:12intelligence. And they see political
21:15leaders who are sitting comfortably in
21:17their velvet seats, well settled for
21:18the long haul, without any projection
21:20whatsoever, spending money that isn't
21:22theirs, drawing benefits from it, and
21:24letting opportunities pass by while
21:25they gamble their own futures. So
21:28obviously they want a reaction,
21:29obviously they want to take action. And
21:31then, there is indeed the existential
21:33question, the need to love, the need to
21:35live, the need to escape this vise that
21:37this society has plunged them into, the
21:39lack of contact, the lack of connection
21:41, the inability to be truly known, this
21:43omnipresence of images of easy success
21:45which are in reality equivalents of
21:47prostitution with all these influencers
21:49in Dubai. This relationship with women
21:52also, completely delusional, where we
21:53try to build extraordinarily crushing
21:55figures, in fact, for any adolescent
21:56who arrives with their own complexes
21:58and so on. All of this comes together
22:00and creates a major crisis that is only
22:02just beginning. So, if the government
22:05succeeds in crushing it through
22:07violence, well, it will be a form of
22:09crime, because it will have stifled a
22:11form of resilience, an impulse for life
22:13; a vitality that was suppressed in the
22:15previous generation, which had led them
22:18to be violent against themselves. And
22:21it will prevent these people from
22:23actually surviving, from moving beyond
22:24survival to finally start living. Do
22:26you believe all the high school
22:27students are really there for their own
22:29cause? Aren't there some who are just
22:30there for the chaos,
22:32>> to stir up trouble? There are some who
22:33talk a lot
22:34>> well, about Palestine. There are many
22:37who say that they are here so that
22:38France helps Palestine. So, I don't
22:40know, one wonders what Palestine has to
22:42do with all this. But why does it
22:44bother you that there are all kinds of
22:45sensibilities within the student
22:47movement? We are coming back to what
22:49was described about the spirit of the
22:51Yellow Vests. The fact that we can find
22:53ourselves together, because some seem
22:54like they don't even know why they are
22:56there. Well,
22:57>> is that normal? Is it abnormal at 17
22:59years old not to have conceptualized
23:01the reasons for one's unhappiness, not
23:02to have conceptualized the reasons for
23:04the failure of the institutions to
23:05which you belong? Are you going to
23:07demand that every citizen, at the
23:09moment of participating in public life,
23:11arrives already armed with a general
23:13preconception on every subject? It must
23:17be built, it is built precisely through
23:19moments of mobilization like this one,
23:20through the exchange it will generate,
23:22through the curiosity it will spark.
23:24But burning things to be heard, is that
23:25the only solution, the only choice?
23:27>> Uh, people say "radicalized." I don't
23:28agree with that expression because, uh,
23:30radical relates to the root when we...
23:33>> I have said that one must be radical.
23:34This here is a radicalized power. But
23:36that is in the sense of fanatical. You
23:38see, today, governments have accustomed
23:40us to use, and the media accustoms us
23:42to use, the word radical to mean
23:44fanatical. And that will allow for the
23:48criminalization of real political
23:51opponents who seek to solve our
23:53problems at the root. I am radical
23:56because I seek the roots of our words
23:58and I am not fanatical at all. And I
24:00think we should be careful and not use
24:02the word radical to mean fanatical. We
24:04say fanatical, that's it. And the power
24:06is becoming fanatical because it has no
24:08limits, because there is no
24:09constitution. But we don't need, in my
24:13opinion we shouldn't be fanatics, we
24:15shouldn't...I...I understand people's
24:17anger, I understand the desire, the
24:18desire for violence, I understand it.
24:21But I would like to emphasize.
24:23>> You understand the desire for violence?
24:24Well, I obviously understand it because
24:26, well, because there is such a thing
24:28as legitimate violence, it's called
24:31self-defense. Uh, and it's a major
24:35hypocrisy to treat the violence of
24:36someone defending themselves against an
24:38initial act of violence, to treat these
24:40violences as equal, and even to only
24:42see the violence of the victims who are
24:44in the middle of defending themselves
24:45and not see the violence of the
24:47repression that follows. Three types of
24:52violence: the institutional violence of
24:53the rich against the poor, of the
24:55dominant against the dominated, the
24:57initial institutional violence; the
24:58violence of the rebels, of those who
25:00can no longer bear this first violence
25:02and who revolt violently because it's
25:04that or we die. And then there's a
25:07third violence which then represses the
25:10second, and the worst hypocrisy—it's
25:12a well-known expression—is what a
25:14hypocrisy, what an injustice, to only
25:16criminalize the second violence. So,
25:20without seeing, without seeing the
25:22others. So, you're looking at me with
25:24wide eyes, saying, "Uh, we must...we
25:26understand the violence." Yes. Yes, I
25:28understand the violence of those who
25:29are defending themselves. We already
25:30had this discussion when we talked
25:31about October 7th, remember? I said
25:33that the Palestinians were in a state
25:34of self-defense. That earned us the
25:36worst of judicial provocations. Yeah,
25:39well, but...
25:40>> going back
25:41>> but I...I told the judicial police
25:42officers what I'll repeat: there is a
25:44legitimate violence that is that which
25:46is written in international treaties,
25:48which is written at the UN. You're
25:50mixing everything up. Excuse me,
25:52Étienne, the subject is...is the
25:54violence. What does Palestine have to
25:56do with this movement?
25:58>> But it doesn't matter, R. answered that
26:00question honestly. We're not going to
26:02ask high school students at 16 or 17 to
26:04have a perfect and enlightened
26:05awareness of the structural causes of
26:06their misfortune. I think it announces.
26:08So, I really ask you to give him a big
26:10round of applause. It's an event.
26:11Jérôme Rodriguez is joining us. So,
26:15there you go. Well, so we have to
26:17applaud Jérôme. Jérôme, have a seat
26:24. Thanks. Well, I'll say it here, it's
26:27truly historic. I am really happy to
26:29have managed to convince you all to be
26:31on this same set. So, Jérôme
26:33Rodriguez, who just arrived from the
26:34protests. How did it go? Well
26:38>> At first, it was going, it was going
26:39smoothly because we were in the first
26:41march, where there was an older
26:43generation. And then, the second march
26:45arrived with a somewhat younger
26:47generation, and that’s when things
26:48started to get a bit more, let's say,
26:50intense.
26:51>> So yeah,
26:52>> I was going to say that violence is a
26:54poor advisor. Anger is a poor advisor,
26:56and while I understand the urge to be
26:58violent because we can no longer stand
27:00the injustice and the impunity of, of
27:02our oppressors. But we mustn't be
27:05violent, we must, and in my opinion,
27:07well, what, what, what must happen will
27:09happen, but it's, uh, we must try to
27:11calm the young people down and lead
27:14them to reflect on what's essential. We
27:17have a common cause, and if we don't,
27:19the revolt will legitimize the worst
27:21repression, and we'll end up exactly
27:23where we started. We won't have any, we
27:25won't have any, we won't have any
27:27solutions. We must think about
27:28solutions. Solutions lie beyond anger.
27:31If you like, perhaps I'm wrong and this
27:33anger is necessary to, how should I say
27:35, crystallize political needs and
27:37political awareness. It's true that
27:40during demonstrations, many people
27:42become aware, realize the police
27:44violence and the state's violence and
27:45the state's injustice, and therefore
27:47become politicized. OK, that's the good
27:52side of violence, but in my opinion, we
27:54need to prepare ourselves much more on
27:56an intellectual level than on a
27:58physical level, because the balance of
28:00power is
28:02>> so François, later I will ask you the
28:03main question
28:05>> is it
28:06>> a few days before the return of the
28:07yellow vests
28:07>> Étienne speaks of solutions, and for
28:09me, that's the question. But I think
28:10we're all a bit like that: it's the
28:11question that has obsessed us these
28:13past years because. we had the yellow
28:15vest movement, we got crumbs, we had
28:17obtained 17 billion. What lesson can we
28:19draw? How do we go about taking back
28:21power?
28:21>> And I think there are three conditions
28:23for taking back power. First, we need
28:25unity. And we need unity. And it's
28:27unity, it's the realization that we
28:28shouldn't each be fighting in our own
28:30corner. It’s not, it’s not just the
28:33firefighters, healthcare workers, or
28:34this or that group, the yellow vests,
28:36farmers, and so on, because every time,
28:38otherwise, they send us back to a dead
28:40end; they tell us: "Oh, but sir, we
28:41have no money, so we can't do anything.
28:43" And well yes, because the problem is
28:46at the root, and the problem is that
28:48they are serving the interests of the
28:500.001%way up there while making the 99%
28:52pay. So we need unity, we need the
28:55realization that it's together that we
28:56change, and that we must change
28:58everything globally, or else we all
28:59lose. So that is the first condition,
29:01it’s common unity,
29:02>> a common cause. The second is that we
29:04need a method, and you have to listen
29:06closely here. We shouldn't be violent,
29:08we should make them afraid. That’s
29:10very different. We shouldn't be violent
29:12, we should make them afraid. And for
29:13that, there are three sub-conditions,
29:15let's say, we must be numerous, we must
29:16block as much as possible because
29:18blocking, we have the right through
29:19strikes, we have the right to block. So
29:21, we can do it. And then, we can also
29:23engage in civil disobedience. And
29:24finally, and that’s what we had
29:25managed to do, we must be unpredictable
29:27, multiply actions everywhere across
29:29the territory, and make ourselves
29:30ungraspable. In fact, these two major
29:32conditions, unity and method, we had
29:34fulfilled them during the yellow vests.
29:37The third one that we were missing,
29:38well, it’s structure. And there, each
29:40time, we were sent back to the same
29:42thing. And that’s the problem, each
29:44time people say, "OK, you’re angry,
29:46but what are you proposing?" And so we
29:48find ourselves empty-handed facing a
29:50dead end, and then we find ourselves
29:51trapped because either we do like we
29:53did with the yellow vests, being
29:55non-partisan, okay, but then we are
29:56unable to carry clear, precise demands,
29:58etc. So they tell us, well, it’s not
30:00clear what you’re demanding, or else,
30:01what are we told? Well, we're told, "
30:03You've been co-opted by this or that
30:04political party." Like for the high
30:06school student movement, it’s LFI,
30:07and just like that, society is divided.
30:09So what we absolutely need is to
30:11structure things so we aren't powerless
30:13. For me, that’s the question that
30:14obsessed me. Roll said it; I stopped
30:16being a lawyer at the end of 2024 for
30:18this. I mean, I sacrificed my status,
30:19my comfort, my income, everything. I'm
30:21not complaining. There are people who
30:23have made much greater sacrifices that
30:24were not by choice. So I'm not
30:26complaining. But I'm trying to create a
30:29tool called Praxis, which I'm leading
30:31today with a small team, where the idea
30:33is to bring out the consensus that
30:35exists in society, going beyond the
30:37left-right divide. There is, yes, there
30:40is everything we don't agree on. Well,
30:42that's a matter for parties, that's a
30:44matter for elections. Let's keep
30:45fighting over that if we want to. But
30:48couldn't we open a space alongside
30:50where we bring out the consensus, the
30:52things we all agree on? Well, with
30:54Praxis, we created a voting platform.
30:56We put forward several proposals, we
30:57have 10 of them.
30:59>> On Praxis, for all 10 proposals, each
31:01time there's at least 95% "Yes." What
31:04are these proposals? An
31:06anti-concentration law for the media so
31:08that billionaires—so we don't have 11
31:09billionaires holding all the power.
31:13It's banning the revolving door for
31:14senior civil servants, because the
31:16state has been gangrened and corrupted
31:17for years by people moving back and
31:19forth between the private and public
31:20sectors, selling off our industrial
31:22assets. You see, these aren't small
31:24measures; it's about conditioning the
31:26public aid we give to companies. We
31:27give more than 200 billion euros every
31:29year to companies. We demand nothing,
31:31no requirements in terms of jobs or
31:32investment. And then we're surprised, "
31:34Oh, it's strange, the CAC 40 has seen
31:36its profits and dividends explode."
31:37Well, you see, these are the measures
31:39we could support. And what I tell
31:41people is to take hold of this tool
31:42because, as it stands, we have 16,000
31:44people voting. Yes, it's not much, it's
31:46not yet very legitimate. Well, it's up
31:48to you to take it on, because social
31:50movements need to be able to fight for
31:51something. And stop fighting only
31:54against, against. We will never have
31:55the masses because people will always
31:57tell us, "You're angry, but what are
31:58you proposing?" Well, with Praxis, we
32:00are proposing something, and I'll
32:01conclude on that. We don't claim
32:02exclusivity. Sorry, I'm a bit
32:04long-winded, but other tools can emerge
32:06, other methods can emerge. We claim to
32:08be a citizen infrastructure, there can
32:10be others. We must get away from the
32:12idea of rivalry and competition. We are
32:14proposing this, take hold of it. And if
32:16you want to support other initiatives,
32:17then do it. If you want to create your
32:19own, do it. But we need these direct
32:20channels to bring the citizens 'voice
32:22straight into public debate.
32:23>> Well, in any case, this Saturday,
32:26October 17th, is D-Day. It seems, at
32:29any rate, that it is feared by many of
32:32our leaders. Uh, I put the question to
32:34you all, perhaps to you, Jérôme
32:36Rodriguez, first. Is the Yellow Vest
32:38movement really back? Could it exceed
32:40the scale of the previous mobilization,
32:42in your opinion?
32:44>> No, first of all, I struggle with the
32:46prefixes, because, in absolute terms,
32:48we never died. There have constantly
32:50been actions carried out by Yellow
32:52Vests over these last seven years.
32:54Granted, much smaller, many fewer
32:56people on the roundabouts, but there
32:58were still roundabouts held every
32:59weekend, maybe one, two, or a dozen
33:01Yellow Vests present, but for many,
33:02they continued to take action. So, I
33:05struggle with this "comeback" narrative
33:07every time. And besides, even if that
33:10were the case, from what I have noticed
33:12today—and I had mentioned this to you
33:14—I did a quick search on artificial
33:16intelligence to give me, over the last
33:18seven years, uh, all the press articles
33:20, both radio and television, on a
33:21potential return of the Yellow Vests,
33:23and I just asked for an exhaustive list
33:25. It gave me three pages. Meaning that
33:29today, the return of the Yellow Vests
33:31has become a media trope, just like the
33:32King Cake or the changing of the clocks
33:34. Every year, they talk to us about it,
33:37even on the list of articles that came
33:39out in 2021, there was supposed to be a
33:41return of the Yellow Vests, and I have
33:43an article from Le Monde where I am
33:45already noting, back in 2021, a
33:46potential return of the Yellow Vests.
33:48>> There were the farmers, the Red Caps,
33:50how do you say?
33:50>> Exactly. Exactly. Uh, and then today,
33:53well, I have the impression that as
33:55soon as there is a movement of
33:57discontent in this country, whatever
33:59the origin, they talk to you about the
34:01return of the Yellow Vests. In the end,
34:04"Yellow Vests" has become a brand.
34:06You're unhappy, you're a Yellow Vest.
34:08Is it also a way for the media to
34:09demonize the thing, to say, "See, those
34:11are the mean Yellow Vests because they
34:13aren't happy," you see. It's like a
34:15soccer team. You support it, you wear
34:17the jersey. If you're unhappy, you wear
34:18the yellow vest; they put it on you
34:19automatically. So that's why I have a
34:21hard time with this concept of the
34:23yellow vests' return just to create
34:24buzz and more buzz. On September 11th,
34:26when my phone started blowing up
34:29because all the media were rushing to
34:31this delirium about the yellow vests '
34:33return, even though I hadn't even heard
34:36of it myself, I spent my entire weekend
34:39calling everyone I know in the yellow
34:41vest network, and no one had heard of
34:43it from me, no one was behind any kind
34:46of initiative or organization—you all
34:48agree on that, right, Maxime, North,
34:51with any of it—and in the end, I
34:53think that...I'll finish the story of
34:59the 17th. For me, it came from a TikTok
35:02trend that went viral, which created
35:04buzz, in other words, and everyone
35:06jumped on it, so obviously it made some
35:08noise. And then, by chance, last night
35:11I ran into the guy who created the 17th
35:13. I stumbled upon the person who is
35:16behind this date of October 17th. He
35:18goes by the nickname V2 on social media
35:20. One day, he went to get gas with a
35:23buddy of his. He realized it cost too
35:26much. He got angry, took out his camera
35:28, and made a video. If you say fuel,
35:30you automatically say yellow vest. So
35:31if you say unhappy, you automatically
35:33say yellow vest. And it went viral. It
35:35started
35:35>> afterward, with the craze around his
35:37videos, he released three of them.
35:38People were telling him, "You have to
35:40react, you have to do something." So he
35:42went on ChatGPT and told it, "Give me
35:44the best date to get people out." and
35:46the 17th came up. He told me that
35:48verbatim. So if at some point
35:50journalists had done their jobs even a
35:52little bit, they would have looked for
35:53this person, because even I found him
35:55quite easily. It took me 3 weeks, but I
35:57managed to find him and talk to him.
35:59He's just a young kid who used to post
36:01soccer photos and I think his musical
36:03passion, I don't remember what kind it
36:05was. So you see, it comes from that,
36:07and then they say, "Oh, the yellow
36:08vests are back." The yellow vests are
36:10back. One time, I was with Grimal there
36:14for a debate on Tosquin, Toxin, sorry.
36:18Uh, the question was, even before the
36:20summer—since we were already being
36:21talked about before the summer
36:23regarding fuel prices—is it
36:24impossible, or will the Yellow Vests be
36:26back at it again? And I told him, the
36:28question you should have asked is, do
36:29the others have the capacity to set the
36:31table? Because don't worry, the moment
36:33they set the table, the Yellow Vests
36:35will be there with dessert. Meaning, we
36:40will have the capacity to come and join
36:41the ranks because, for many of us—
36:43I’m one of them, I speak for myself
36:44—we still have the frustration of not
36:46having won the fight we led back then,
36:48and we want to see things through to
36:49the end. You know, it's a bit like
36:52finishing your plate. We're
36:53well-mannered, you see. So, I know that
36:56for the Yellow Vests, if there's a
36:58movement, a popular surge that
37:00expresses discontent and revolts, we
37:02will be there. And if, on top of that,
37:06people who want to go out and fight
37:08today come to us for advice, since
37:10we’ve also questioned ourselves and
37:12taken stock of what we did. It took me
37:14three years to know what needs to be
37:16done, what should be done, and
37:17especially what to expect, because the
37:18legacy the Yellow Vests left behind
37:20today is repression ten times worse
37:21than what we experienced. We went from
37:24a 15 billion budget for the cops to 25
37:26billion, and it all went into
37:27maintaining order, you know. The 15,000
37:29grenades, the riot guns, the armored
37:31vehicles—they really went all out,
37:33you know. I'll give you an anecdote
37:34that a police officer told me. The
37:36water cannons we faced during the
37:37Yellow Vests movement were on their way
37:39out; they were, uh, they were finished,
37:41they were going to get rid of them.
37:43There were no plans to buy new ones.
37:44They bought a whole, a whole series of
37:47new-generation water cannons. Oh,
37:49really?
37:49>> Yes, yes, they’re gray,
37:51>> you see. We have them; I saw one just a
37:52while ago at the protest. They are, uh,
37:54gas-proof; nothing gets in through the
37:56vents. Anyway, the latest, well, the
37:57latest generation of water cannons,
37:58even though it wasn't planned. The
38:00water cannons were supposed to go to
38:01countries in the Middle East, the old
38:03ones—well, the ones that were
38:04scrapped and hadn't been used in years.
38:05The first ones, the white ones we had
38:07during the, at the time of the, at the
38:08time of the Yellow Vests movement,
38:10sorry. But you know, maybe if it's a
38:12recurring topic, it's perhaps because,
38:14on one hand, those in power are afraid
38:16of it. Because they were genuinely
38:18afraid at a time when we managed to
38:20unite people from the left and the
38:22right and have high-level demands like
38:24the RIC, which are extremely subversive
38:26. So maybe they are afraid of it, and
38:29that's why they talk about it as if it
38:31were a danger to them. And then,
38:32probably among the population, we all
38:34aspire for it to start again because we
38:36really feel that there is a revolt that
38:38will eventually work. We tell ourselves
38:40that, perhaps, and if you like, there
38:42is an aspiration on both sides for it
38:44to resume. Whether it's called Yellow
38:46Vests or another name, but it's not
38:50necessarily a—there hasn't been a May
38:51'68 number two, there hasn't been a '36
38:53number two. If something has to happen,
38:56something will happen, and we will come
38:57to join all the ranks. But it's the
39:00same in the media; you notice that they
39:01were telling you, "Yeah, but the Yellow
39:03Vests came out for gas at € 1.40,"
39:04which is false. "And why don't they
39:07come out when gas is at € 2.40?"
39:08Which is false.
39:10>> Which is completely false because the
39:11Yellow Vests, what lit the powder keg
39:13and what allowed for—what allowed for
39:14creating a social bond at the
39:15roundabouts, fundamentally, was the
39:17carbon tax. And it's important to
39:19clarify that. Why? Because it is one of
39:21the few battles we have won. Meaning
39:22that this carbon tax doesn't exist. Hmm
39:24.
39:25>> And besides, for 7—for 7 years, they
39:27haven't for 7 years, they have never
39:33used fuel as an adjustment variable by
39:35increasing taxes. So, we got hammered
39:37on electricity, gas, the garden shed,
39:39the doghouse. They taxed us on
39:41everything they possibly could, for
39:42sure, but they didn't touch that. If
39:44you look at the N-208 regarding the
39:46fuel tax hikes, it's just a disaster.
39:48And by the way, on January 1, 2027,
39:50they were supposed to increase fuel
39:52prices—I don't remember if it was by
39:5410 to 15 cents or 10 to 15%—and they
39:55walked back their decision. It was a
39:57European prerogative that has already
39:59been postponed to 2028. So already, at
40:01least, we made them panic over that,
40:03and that's—why don't they talk about
40:04this carbon tax today? So, what is the
40:07problem with fuel today? Well, it's the
40:09taxes. Every European country around us
40:12knew how to lower taxes to perhaps
40:13provide some breathing room for the
40:15finances of Europeans around us. Here,
40:17they don't want to lower taxes. It’s
40:18not the Yellow Vests who are going to
40:20unblock the Strait of Hormuz, let's be
40:21clear. But they could have had this
40:22lever that they don't want to use, and
40:23that's why they don't talk about it.
40:24>> What do you expect from this new
40:26mobilization? Iran, it's not the Yellow
40:28Vests—I'm answering—it's not the
40:29Yellow Vests who can unblock the Strait
40:31of Hormuz, but they could have
40:32prevented us from having a political
40:33leader who aligns completely with those
40:35who led to the catastrophe in Iran.
40:37That is to say, this is also where I
40:39think you are being too modest,
40:41Jérôme.
40:42>> Uh, we saw it clearly on social media:
40:44those who won, even though it was
40:46atrocious—and I started like that,
40:47you weren't here yet—in terms of
40:49human consequences for each of us,
40:51those who won are those who were in the
40:53street that day. Because we are the
40:56ones who participated in a positive
40:58historical moment in the history of
40:59this country, whereas they will all end
41:02up in the scrap heap of history, in the
41:04trash cans of history, all those who
41:06govern us, all those who are enjoying
41:08themselves right now in starred
41:09restaurants, on television sets, who
41:11are half-dead already, we see them,
41:13they will be in history, in the long
41:15history of this country, seen as stains
41:17, and those...
41:19>> like priests
41:21>> and and the faces of this period that
41:22will remain will be yours, and you know
41:24why I tell you this with such assurance
41:26? Because we already see it with the
41:29new generation, and you've seen them
41:31like I have, all who have trended, etc.
41:33, all the kids. When you spoke up, when
41:35you spoke up to say that you supported
41:38them, the emotion and respect for you
41:39...Do you think there is one among
41:41those who are in government today who
41:43has even a shred of that respect? They
41:46thought they could seduce them with
41:48TikTok by dancing with Haribo, the
41:49Bardellas, the Attals, and so on. But
41:52today, at a time when things are
41:53getting tense, at a time when it's
41:54getting serious, at a time when they
41:56must defend their interests and defend
41:58what...Me, when I was in prison in
41:59Senegal, do you know when my comrades
42:01came to see me? Because Clédor is here
42:03, who was the lawyer for all the
42:04representatives of the Senegalese
42:06revolution, there were 1,000 people in
42:07prison. There were 75 people shot dead
42:10by Macron's ally in 2023. I go to
42:12prison because I am the lawyer for the
42:14political opponent who is himself in
42:15prison. And at one point, in this cell,
42:19there were 12 of us, we hear people
42:21coming to the doors and so on, and they
42:23come to tell me, "It's okay, it's
42:25settled, you'll be able to get out.""
42:27Saying that, and I start asking myself,
42:28what is happening? Is there a statement
42:31from a minister, a No, they tell me the
42:33Yellow Vests, RFI just announced that
42:35the Yellow Vests are organizing a
42:37protest for your freedom. In Senegal,
42:39in Senegal, for them, France, and what
42:42is glorious about France, is what you
42:44have done in the rest of the world. The
42:48only thing people remember about this
42:49country from these past few years that
42:51is at least dignified and lives up to
42:52what France once represented is your
42:54faces. And you must remember that, and
42:56that is your victory, and no one can
42:57take that away from you. Yeah, but you
43:01write in your book about the Yellow
43:03Vests. The result is cruel, nothing has
43:06changed. Why start again if nothing has
43:09changed?
43:10>> Oh, but I wasn't just saying that in
43:12the book. Nothing has changed in
43:13concrete terms for people's lives. Well
43:15no, it's gotten worse. I think for the
43:16past 8 years everyone has understood
43:17that well.
43:18>> What could make it succeed
43:19>> what could they do? Well, I
43:20>> crossing where it failed in 2018.
43:22>> Let's try to take a step back and make
43:23sense of what we are currently living
43:24through. I think we are living through
43:26the end of a world, the world that
43:28began after the Second World War where
43:29we had built the welfare state, where
43:31people who had fought in the war had
43:33built social security and had learned
43:35the lessons of the past. We were
43:36talking about the media ownership rules
43:38. Well yes, the National Council of the
43:40Resistance had learned the lessons of
43:42the collaboration and so there had to
43:43be one newspaper, one man, one
43:45newspaper. Well, unfortunately, little
43:46by little, those lessons were forgotten
43:48. We lost our vigilance, and since the
43:5080s and 90s, the system has started to
43:52seize up. Today, it is completely
43:54necrotic. And I would say that the
43:56beginning of the turning point is
43:58actually the 2008 crisis where we
44:00started the decline, only it really hit
44:02the poorest and the most modest, and so
44:04for a few years we were spared, but
44:06since 2016 there have been social
44:08movements almost every year. At least
44:10every two years. There was Nuit Debout,
44:12the Yellow Vests, the movements against
44:14the pension reforms. Now the high
44:16school students' movement. We can
44:18clearly see that there are farmers,
44:20firefighters, healthcare workers, well,
44:22so many parts of society have started
44:24moving, and actually we are
44:25experiencing the end of an era, and I
44:27would say that the turning point is
44:29very close now, just that.
44:31>> Wait, let me just finish, it's that
44:33here, we have a confrontation playing
44:35out. There is going to be a turning
44:37point, but be careful which way it's
44:39going to fall, because we have the
44:40people who are revolting more and more,
44:42but we have a government that is
44:44becoming more and more authoritarian,
44:45that is hardening, I mean, that is in
44:47the process of crushing public freedoms
44:49one by one. All of them, absolutely all
44:51of them. They are putting people in
44:52police custody. That is now how they
44:53manage protests, you know. Police
44:55custody, I remind you, is still a
44:56measure that deprives people of their
44:57liberty. We are blinding or mutilating
44:59kids, people who are 14 or 15 years old
45:00, and on TV talk shows, there are some
45:02who still manage to justify that. Well,
45:04that's where we're at. Well, I say
45:05watch out, it's going to be decided in
45:07the months or years to come, and it
45:09will be either we get a real democracy,
45:11or it will be the end of any form of
45:13democracy. It is now that it's being
45:14decided. Maxime, there are a lot of
45:21things I would like to react to from
45:22the beginning. First of all, Jérôme
45:25who tells me, well, who says that we
45:27are a bit frustrated because we didn't
45:29manage to win. I understand him.
45:31>> Finish
45:32>> or finish, yeah, I understand him. But
45:34I find it magical because it hasn't
45:36died out. They put colossal resources
45:40into the media, military, police,
45:42intelligence, everything that was
45:44possible to repress people's anger. And
45:48today, you are doing this show. Uh,
45:51people say we don't have solutions.
45:53Today, there is Praxis, there is the
45:54beehive movement, there is Etienne, who
45:57is working on the Citizens 'Initiative
45:58Referendum everywhere. Those of us who
46:01broadcast or participate in everything
46:02we can for the collective interest—
46:04they haven't managed to extinguish
46:06anything despite their billions. I’ll
46:08take one example: the video supporting
46:09the high school students has surpassed
46:116.5 million views across all platforms.
46:12How much does BFM TV spend to get 6.5
46:14million views? It cost me 4 minutes and
46:1730 seconds on my cell phone in my
46:18living room. When, when you say, when
46:22you say that in the protests...I’ll
46:24try to react to two or three things I
46:26heard: you see Palestinian flags at a
46:28protest and it shocks you; when you see
46:31a police officer blinding someone, are
46:33all police officers blinders? When you
46:39see 10 million in damages caused by
46:40high school students, who is going to
46:41repay the 1,000 billion in debt that
46:43Macron created in ten years? When we
46:46look at the social security fraud that
46:48many highlight, when, uh, when are we
46:50going to go after the 1,300 billion in
46:52tax evasion by multinationals? Just to
46:58finish, just to finish on this, this is
47:00what the government hasn't managed to
47:02extinguish: popular education, which we
47:04are all trying to do at our own level.
47:07The fact that young people have
47:08understood that a suit and tie today is
47:10synonymous with lies and betrayal.
47:14I’m talking about the people who
47:15represent us, of course; at a wedding,
47:16it’s always nicer. Are we in
47:17agreement? And that the only response
47:20they will be able to get from those
47:22people is violence. It’s violence,
47:26because when you try to discuss things
47:28with the government, the violence is
47:30immediate and disproportionate.
47:33>> Ranco, you published a graphic on your
47:34X account with this text. So, I’m
47:36quoting you here. Toppling a government
47:38is only illegal if you fail. What is
47:40the meaning behind this message? Are
47:41you calling for revolution? Over 6
47:42million too.
47:43>> Well, it’s obvious that we need an
47:44institutional break and that we won’t
47:46get there under the current conditions
47:47for organizing elections. I’m
47:49perfectly willing—I’ve always been
47:51the best student, in the sense of
47:52someone who follows the rules, who is
47:53careful; I went to elite schools, I
47:55passed the bar, and so on. Blah, blah,
47:56blah. That didn’t stop me from being
47:58threatened today by I don’t know how
48:00many tens of legal proceedings. Now in
48:02January—I haven’t even talked about
48:03this yet—they are pursuing me for a
48:04tweet, another tweet like that, it’s
48:0610 years in prison. I mean, we have
48:08entered that dynamic. I might end up in
48:11handcuffs, because in reality, in
48:13reality, what I am doing is threatening
48:15—through the movement we are creating
48:17, through putting these dynamics into
48:19words—we are threatening an
48:21incalculable number of interests. We
48:24keep talking about the big oligarchs,
48:25the Bollorés, the Drahis, and all that
48:27. Drahi spent a billion euros to buy
48:30BFM. BFM loses money every year. So
48:32he’s not spending a billion euros for
48:35an entrepreneurial project. He buys it
48:38to buy influence, which in turn will
48:39give him access to state resources. And
48:42so we are...But that is the inner
48:44circle, but there are thousands of
48:46people who benefit indirectly, each one
48:48...I...I revealed, for example, about
48:51Cédric O, the former minister of...
48:54>> Digital affairs, who is now at a 90-
48:57million-euro valuation because he
48:59invested € 170 in a company, Mistral
49:01AI. Basically, the only thing he did
49:04was offer them his address book, open
49:06the doors of the Élysée to Laurent
49:08Alexandre's nephew, and that, that nets
49:09him 90 million euros for a person like
49:11that. And examples like this, I can
49:13give you hundreds, and we are
49:15cataloging them one after the other.
49:17And all these people know perfectly
49:18well that if, at some point, there is a
49:20major political rupture, they will go
49:21to prison. They will go to prison
49:23because the judicial institution will
49:25serve not to repress the people who
49:27denounce them, but to put an end to
49:28these kinds of dynamics. Why don't you
49:30let the ballot boxes speak in 2027?
49:33It’s scary.
49:34>> Do you hear any candidate defending a
49:36solid crackdown against these people?
49:38Do you hear television shows today
49:40talking about it, saying," Who among
49:41them should be sent to prison? "You
49:43expose the scandal. Let's say you're
49:45lucky, and you manage to talk about
49:47this Cédric O, let's say by some
49:48miracle on BFM TV, do you think
49:50you’ll be followed up by the
49:51journalist asking," So, how do we send
49:53him to prison? "No, they will say to
49:55you," Wait, how can you say that? ""
49:56Wait, there must be an explanation, "
49:58and it will be stifled, and it will
50:00stop there. We are in a regime that
50:01organizes impunity. But the rupture
50:03>> trust in the presidential election,
50:04right. The presidential election is in
50:06May 2027. I had so much faith that I'm
50:08going to campaign with a bank account
50:10that had € 300 a month on my debit
50:11card, the debit card for the whole
50:13campaign.
50:13>> You won't have
50:14>> and we're going to do it. Well no, but
50:15we're going to do it. We're going to do
50:16it and maybe we'll win. But what do you
50:17want me to tell you? If we don't win,
50:19we really have to think about something
50:20else. We're not going to put ourselves
50:22in the hands of some servant of power
50:23who just wants to continue what exists,
50:25to redistribute the spoils a little.
50:27What do you say to those who ask why we
50:29don't let the ballot box speak in 2027?
50:31>> I have an answer for that.
50:32>> So, François Boulot. So Maxime first
50:34and François after. Read the
50:36constitution. When you have read your
50:38constitution, you will understand that
50:40they have no obligation, that we have
50:42no way to remove them from their posts,
50:44and as was just said, no way to send
50:46them to prison. no way to win
50:48>> no media way to denounce them without
50:50being either discredited or denounced
50:53yourself.
50:53>> No way to win the elections.
50:55>> No way to win the elections. The proof:
50:57the campaign account for the movement
50:59of Roine de Brco has just been opened
51:01with a € 300 limit. How much did
51:03Sarkozy exceed his election campaign by
51:06? 22 million.
51:07>> He's still not in prison.
51:08>> He's still not in prison. Yes,
51:11>> Anyway, for the little bit, it was an
51:12electronic ankle monitor and, well, I
51:14won't give names because I can't give
51:16names, but knowing someone who works in
51:17the administration that manages
51:19electronic monitors, there was no alarm
51:21on his electronic monitor and he had
51:22permission to go out all day.
51:25>> Let them sue me if that's false, no
51:28problem. So you see all these political
51:30representatives, putting down a name is
51:32already refusing to vote, and besides,
51:33it's choosing who will decide our place
51:35, and we see what that leads to.
51:36government, it could fall before the
51:37presidential election in your opinion.
51:39That's
51:39>> it's possible, but to answer the
51:40question about the presidential
51:41election because maybe there are a lot
51:43of people waiting for that,
51:44>> believe that,
51:44>> but there's something that almost no
51:46candidate—I'm talking about the major
51:47candidates—tells us, which is that
51:49they have no chance, they have no
51:50chance of having a majority in the
51:52National Assembly. Almost none. Because
51:54, in fact, if one of them wins, the
51:56other two will gang up against the one
51:58who won. So that means that, either way
52:00, we are going to have an institutional
52:02paralysis that will continue. So there
52:04is no possibility of adopting major
52:06structural reforms and so on. So even
52:09if there were some who trusted, who
52:10believed in the current major
52:12candidates—I invite them to be
52:13cautious—but even if you did trust
52:15them, nothing will change because there
52:17will be no majority. People
52:19>> say it's Mélenchon or Le Pen, there is
52:21no
52:21>> There will be no majority. In fact, we
52:23are in a regime crisis. We think we've
52:25been in an institutional crisis since
52:272024; that's not true. We are in a
52:28regime crisis. It's the end of the
52:30Fifth Republic. It will end, that's for
52:33sure. But the problem is that the
52:35regime crisis can last a long time and
52:36that, during all that time, they can
52:38impose a technocratic government on us
52:40that will make us swallow bitter pills,
52:41as I was saying earlier, and will
52:43impose austerity measures on us,
52:44Greek-style. That is what awaits us in
52:47the months and years to come. So yes,
52:49it is now that we must mobilize,
52:51because once again, we have a window of
52:53opportunity
52:54>> and to organize, to get organized in
52:55the mobilization. Of course, what is
52:58fundamental today is to have methods,
52:59because you were talking about passing
53:00on to high school students what we have
53:02learned from those years. Because for
53:04me, I am not ready to spend my life
53:06getting people out of police custody,
53:08dealing with procedures, because your
53:10cases against the state have been
53:11dragging on for years and still aren't
53:13finished. The kids need to be aware of
53:16this: that when you set foot in this
53:18system, it doesn't get resolved as
53:20quickly as the time of the protest, and
53:23so on. You are in for years of an
53:26obstacle course that is almost more
53:28exhausting than the violence you
53:29suffered during the event; and you have
53:31a system that will do everything,
53:33either to crush the one who dared to
53:35stand up, or to protect the one who
53:37repressed him. And you will suffer
53:40morally from the injustice of seeing
53:42robed judges, lawyers who will not do
53:43the work to defend you, to ensure that
53:45your rights are respected. this double
53:48suffering, the childhood of the world,
53:50we were as innocent as they are today.
53:52We threw ourselves into it saying," No,
53:54it can't be this dysfunctional, it
53:55can't be this unfair, "and we paid for
53:57it and we continue to pay for it very
53:58dearly. So at some point, we also have
54:00to find ways to provide them with the
54:02means to protect themselves and for us
54:03to organize collectively. That's why
54:05this Saturday the 17th, you ask," Will
54:07it be the big night? "etcetera. I have
54:08no idea. What matters is that we need
54:11as many responsible people as possible,
54:13whether they are farmers, professionals
54:15, everyone that, for example, Vincent
54:17Bolloré's TV tried to push aside by
54:19focusing attention on burning trash
54:21cans and so on, saying:" Yes, it's a
54:23revolt, and yes, these are, these are
54:25people who are different from you, who
54:27are. "If we don't manage to bring these
54:30groups together, we won't achieve
54:32anything. If, at some point, we don't
54:34manage to come together, whether it be
54:35people who can't create an economic
54:37activity, artisans, shopkeepers,
54:38professionals because they are
54:39overtaxed from the start, or people who
54:41are in precarious situations, it's not,
54:42it's not so much the term" convergence
54:44of struggles, "which is very, very
54:45ideologically charged. It's just that
54:47at some point, we see kids going out
54:49into the street. As adults, as people
54:52who have a social responsibility, we
54:53also go out to protect them, we
54:55accompany them and we hope. Because you
54:57are talking about all those
54:59consequences, I am going to add one
55:00more: war. war, war, war as an outlet
55:05>> and as the easiest way out for our
55:08leaders
55:09>> to be able to say, oh no, listen now,
55:11you are afraid
55:13>> fear, but actual engagement in the war
55:15in Russia.
55:15>> Ah, there it is, that's the one you're
55:17talking about, the
55:17>> the real war, not this war that means
55:19tomorrow maybe you'll have military
55:21trucks in your street taking all adults
55:24under 40 to bring them to the front,
55:26which is what's happening today in Kyiv
55:28>> in Ukraine.
55:30>> Do you believe in that? Well, it's
55:31entirely possible. Of course. Yes, but
55:33it wouldn't be the first time. And why
55:34wouldn't it happen to us? Of course,
55:36it's a power that is becoming
55:37totalitarian, it is becoming violent.
55:38Of course, it attacks us and comes to
55:41take from us, and in fact, both world
55:43wars, the last few wars, have each time
55:45served to avoid revolution. Before the
55:47First World War, we were going to vote
55:49for income tax; the push, the push of
55:50what was called socialism, which was
55:52actually a form of communism, scared
55:54the bourgeoisie. They started the war
55:55to throw young German revolutionaries
55:57against young French revolutionaries.
55:59And in fact, war serves to avoid
56:01revolution. But, but, but we must
56:04understand that the text, a good, a
56:06good constitution, uh, it must be us
56:08who write it; a good constitution would
56:11contain the article that says no war
56:13without a referendum, and those who
56:15voted yes to the war must go fight it
56:18themselves. And then there would be
56:20fewer people doing that all over the
56:21earth. There would be none left. But I
56:25would like, in terms of mobilization
56:27and the politicization of people, uh, I
56:29would like to point out something we
56:31discovered this year during the
56:33municipal elections, which really
56:34addresses the problem at the root and
56:36in a very powerful way, and which is
56:38not contradictory to what we have said
56:40so far, but is complementary. There is
56:44a democratic contagion in small towns
56:48that is being born. There is a town
56:51called Ménil-la-Horgne where a mayor
56:52decided he was not going to decide
56:54anything, and he is exemplary, just as
56:55the Yellow Vests were exemplary at the
56:57time, and he should be exemplary for
56:59high school students. In the same way,
57:01the mayor of Ménil-la-Horgne gave
57:04power to his citizens by convening a
57:06citizens' assembly. We highlighted this
57:09, we discovered it, and we showcased it
57:11. We let it be known, and about twenty
57:14of them have become democratic.
57:16Democratic, meaning it is the people
57:17who vote on the laws, not, it's not the
57:19representatives who vote on the laws;
57:20the representatives help them. The
57:21representatives present the laws, the
57:23representatives execute the laws, but
57:24it is not the representatives who vote
57:25on the laws. And that is exemplary on a
57:28small scale; it is possible today. And
57:32I would like, I would like to plant
57:34this seed in the minds of the rebels of
57:36today. At the same time, I am not
57:38telling you not to rebel, but I am
57:40telling you to keep in the back of your
57:42mind the fact that we can very well
57:43establish a democracy, provided we
57:45establish it ourselves, and it will
57:47start on a small scale. and the
57:48communes that are becoming free are
57:50writing their own constitutions,
57:51because they are writing a constitution
57:53in Ménila and in various neighboring
57:54communes and all over the country. The
57:56people who do this, they actually
57:58become sovereign, they become the ones
58:01who decide. They are establishing a
58:03true democracy, they are doing it here
58:04and now. And that is exemplary and it's
58:06an example to set for young people.
58:09Look at what is happening in the small
58:11communes that are becoming democratic.
58:12And uh, once they have become
58:13democratic, they are then able to
58:15federate, to create a confederation of
58:17free communes. And that, that will be a
58:18true democracy that we will have known
58:20how to build from the ground up, and
58:22without any violence. We're not going
58:24to ask for anything, we're not going to
58:25ask our masters of today for anything.
58:26We're not going to ask our media. We're
58:27not going to ask our elected officials,
58:29we're not going to ask our, our, our
58:31masters of today. When an adolescent
58:32decides to be free, they don't ask
58:34their parents for permission. We won't
58:36demand it, we won't ask for it, we will
58:37simply choose it. We will want to be
58:39free. We will write the rules of our
58:41democracy ourselves on a small scale,
58:42and then on a large scale by federating
58:44the communes. Just a reaction regarding
58:49that, but also your astonishment
58:50regarding the war. Uh, when we started
58:53the Yellow Vests, they made us out—or
58:55at least me—to be a simpleton who
58:56came from the countryside, who hadn't
58:58gone to university and who was
58:59completely stupid. And today I would
59:02like to ask a question. Who has never
59:04opened a history book to know how far a
59:07state can go to repress, to kill,
59:10>> to restrict freedoms, to want to commit
59:12horrors,
59:12>> to shoot into a crowd.
59:15>> Has that ever happened before? Of
59:16course, at every period in history
59:18before the collapse of a civilization.
59:22Look at the thirties, look at what
59:24happened during the thirties, look at
59:25what is happening today. And all the
59:27intellectuals, I ask them to stand in
59:29front of a mirror and ask themselves,"
59:31Are we not experiencing something that
59:33is becoming more and more authoritarian
59:34? "
59:35>> Let's come back, please, to the
59:36mobilization announced for Saturday.
59:38What must we do, in your opinion? We
59:39must block the country completely.
59:41Jérôme Rodrigues,
59:43>> can that be part of the objectives, of
59:46the modes of action
59:48>> of a blockade of the country? But do
59:49people...
59:50>> You know that your words will be very
59:51closely listened to, Jérôme? So, what
59:52are you saying today, three days away
59:53from this mobilization? As for me, I, I
59:55have, I have Many people come up to
59:59talk to me and I'm sorry, but today,
1:00:01most of the people who stop me in the
1:00:03street when I'm shopping, when I'm
1:00:05walking around or wherever, or even my
1:00:07coworkers—though that's changed a bit
1:00:09this week—say:" But where are you,
1:00:11Mr. Rodriguez? "What are your yellow
1:00:13vest friends doing? Why aren't you
1:00:15going out into the street?" And I, in
1:00:17the end, I imply that it's our job.
1:00:21It's our job as yellow vests, as if we
1:00:23were paid to go yell in the street, to
1:00:26go, uh, campaign, protest, make demands
1:00:29. It's our day-to-day job. When we have
1:00:31a trade, we have a life, we have a
1:00:33family life, we weren't, we were
1:00:35first-time protesters, we learned late,
1:00:37we also learned a lot about what to do
1:00:39and what not to do. And people, in the
1:00:41end, are waiting for others to do it
1:00:42for them. They shift their
1:00:44responsibility onto the yellow vests,
1:00:46just as others shift it onto unions,
1:00:47for example. Even though we should all
1:00:49become yellow vests
1:00:50>> or, in any case, come and express our
1:00:52dissatisfaction in one way or another.
1:00:55We don't have to, because we mustn't
1:00:56forget that the basic yellow vest comes
1:00:58from a guy who puts it on a windshield
1:01:00to express dissatisfaction, and in the
1:01:01end, it turned into a metaphor. The
1:01:03yellow vest is a metaphor in itself.
1:01:05>> It's someone in distress who wants to
1:01:07be visible and show their distress,
1:01:08just as we do on the side of the road
1:01:10when we break down. It's not, it's not,
1:01:13it's not a political idea. It's not, we
1:01:15are really dealing with pure metaphor.
1:01:18These people, and I have factual proof
1:01:20of it. Take September 10th of last year
1:01:23, when there was a lot of buzz about
1:01:25what was supposed to be yet another
1:01:27return of the yellow vests with
1:01:28Operation Blocon. There were 200,000 of
1:01:32us across the country who went out into
1:01:34the street, and the next day you have
1:01:36Apolline de Malerbe tweeting: "We broke
1:01:38an audience record on BFM, there were
1:01:40millions of you watching us." Which
1:01:42means that while there are 200,000
1:01:44idiots walking around in the street in
1:01:45their yellow vests trying to make
1:01:47things change, you have 10 million
1:01:48others eating popcorn and watching us
1:01:50play the fool.
1:01:51>> Yeah.
1:01:51>> Where are they, where are those 10
1:01:53million people?
1:01:54>> Saturday the 17th.
1:01:55>> Right.
1:01:56>> Saturday the 17th, that would be great.
1:01:58So, it's when those people say to me, "
1:01:59Where are you?", I would like them to
1:02:01tell me "Sir, where are you?" so we can
1:02:03join you. And then, I could tell them "
1:02:05Well come on, we’re going here to
1:02:06such and such a place where you can
1:02:07take action." But those people, I would
1:02:09like to I would like to come back to
1:02:11what you are saying, Jérôme,
1:02:13>> those people those people are just
1:02:15waiting for us to do it for them. Some
1:02:17are waiting for others, others are
1:02:18waiting for some, and we won’t be
1:02:19done waiting.
1:02:19>> The French people who have no choice
1:02:21but to go to work, which deserves to be
1:02:22blocked. Sorry to interrupt, but I
1:02:23would like to bounce off that, but we
1:02:25aren't going to ask BFM-style questions
1:02:27on this set, otherwise we’ll never
1:02:29get anywhere. No, this Saturday the
1:02:3117th isn't a BFM question; it's about
1:02:32people who want to work, who want
1:02:34>> on BFM, those are the questions asked,
1:02:35but I’ll answer: BFM says it's nice
1:02:36out and the sky is blue, that doesn't
1:02:37necessarily mean it's good; the people,
1:02:39the people who work are the people who
1:02:40get beaten up in the street when they
1:02:41demonstrate too.
1:02:42>> There we go, and, and Saturday the 17th
1:02:44is a turning point. Is it, basically,
1:02:46the end? Is it a last stand with the
1:02:49yellow vests, high schoolers, the big
1:02:51fair, or is it the moment the country
1:02:53realizes, other parts of society
1:02:54realize: "OK, now is the time for us to
1:02:56get moving"? Yes, yes, that's what's at
1:02:59stake. In my opinion, symbolically,
1:03:01that's when people will decide or not
1:03:03that it's time to get moving. And we
1:03:05need the farmers, we need the
1:03:07firefighters; in fact, we need the
1:03:08strategic sectors to join the dance. So
1:03:11we need the truckers, we need the
1:03:13railway workers, we need all of them,
1:03:14the farmers, all those areas, because I
1:03:16mean, we need to learn the lessons from
1:03:17the yellow vest movement. The goal
1:03:20isn't necessarily to have a general
1:03:21strike. The strategic sectors go on
1:03:23strike, that blocks the country, and
1:03:24the others, the others don't need to go
1:03:26on strike. they keep going to work,
1:03:28very quickly the country will be
1:03:29blocked, they won't be on strike,
1:03:31they'll still get paid, and then all
1:03:33the wages they earn, well, they can
1:03:34contribute to funds to help the
1:03:36strategic sectors that have gone on
1:03:37strike; that is an intelligent way to
1:03:39lead
1:03:40>> by the street, really, frankly.
1:03:41>> But we've never done that. Personally,
1:03:43I think Emmanuel Macron, if you want,
1:03:44he has two arms, two legs, he's like
1:03:45everyone else. And we saw it clearly,
1:03:47right, back in December, when he gave
1:03:48his address to the world of the Yellow
1:03:50Vests, the guy was terrified, he didn't
1:03:51even know his own name anymore, right!
1:03:53He felt the hot breath on his neck,
1:03:55right, but I can tell you that tomorrow
1:03:56he could feel it again. But for that,
1:03:58well, that's what Jérôme was saying.
1:03:59Yes, ladies and gentlemen, there have
1:04:01to be millions of us. Yes, there have
1:04:03to be millions of us moving in the
1:04:04streets. We're waiting for you. I have
1:04:07a question. Just 2 seconds. Emmanuel
1:04:10Macron, his reign is ending, he's not
1:04:12the problem. It's about what we're
1:04:13going to do after if we take back power
1:04:14.
1:04:15>> That's why we're all thinking about
1:04:17what's going to happen. It's a pivotal
1:04:19moment, as you might think, can we have
1:04:21a helicopter take off from the lawn
1:04:22again?
1:04:23>> But who cares? He can take a boat or
1:04:24take off wherever he wants. Actually,
1:04:26we don't care. We'll catch him, we'll
1:04:27put him in prison, that's not a problem
1:04:29. Better yet, we'll make him run too,
1:04:30right? That's not a problem. We've
1:04:31learned to run very fast behind the
1:04:33cops who chase us, we'll make him run
1:04:34behind. It's not a concern. And even so
1:04:37, anyway, he is only the puppet or the
1:04:38image of the system we are fighting
1:04:40today, and I have the certainty. Now, I
1:04:43might not have the work done by
1:04:46Étienne or by Boulot, who are very
1:04:48intellectual and who have slogged away
1:04:50on societal projects, projects for a
1:04:53constitution, for a renewal behind it
1:04:55all. I'm more, I'm part of, let's say,
1:04:58the representatives of the active ones,
1:05:00those who will go into the field to
1:05:01move things so that, precisely, we can
1:05:03make room for people like that. And in
1:05:05the Yellow Vest movement, I have an 80-
1:05:07liter trunk where guys, on the corner
1:05:09of their kitchen tables, had the
1:05:11ability to churn out societal projects,
1:05:13life projects. So, maybe not everything
1:05:15is good to take, but a line or two to
1:05:17adapt and precisely submit them to some
1:05:19kind of vote or to the approval of all
1:05:21the citizens and the people. There is
1:05:23substance behind it. They took us for
1:05:24ignorant people, they took us for total
1:05:26idiots. You know, I am an illiterate
1:05:29person, I speak four languages. Come on
1:05:31, let's discuss whenever you want, guys
1:05:32. I went to school, I didn't just come
1:05:34out of nowhere, you know. Uh, we have
1:05:37the substance, we had the brainpower
1:05:39behind the yellow vests in the
1:05:40assemblies, everything we were able to
1:05:41work on. Did you really feel it?
1:05:43>> Yes, of course.
1:05:44>> Oh, of course. It's not that we felt it
1:05:45, it's that we lived it. The master...
1:05:47when you...when we arrived on
1:05:49television sets, we were categorized as
1:05:51, yeah. As illiterate, as what...
1:05:53>> Beer drinker, club smoker, drives a
1:05:55diesel.
1:05:55>> And we were told that, the, the, yeah,
1:05:58the...
1:05:59>> I'll tell you an anecdote that's quite
1:06:01interesting regarding this, because
1:06:02obviously I've usually always been
1:06:03treated with respect, I'm a lawyer and
1:06:05I look like a straight-A student. When
1:06:07I arrived on BFM TV for the first time,
1:06:09those who had mandated me asked me to
1:06:11wear the yellow vest, so I had the
1:06:12yellow vest on. There are some people
1:06:14—I'll keep their names to myself—
1:06:16but very famous people who were often
1:06:17on TV sets at the time, and still are.
1:06:19They saw me with the yellow vest, I
1:06:21felt the contempt, the disgust. I was
1:06:23like, "Oh yes, okay." Is that what it
1:06:25feels like when you're a lowlife, a
1:06:27nobody, a nothing? That's how we're
1:06:29treated, that. I saw one, he didn't
1:06:31offer me his hand, and the one who did,
1:06:33he was disgusted.
1:06:34>> Who was it? The ones who were disgusted
1:06:36were the Geoffroys.
1:06:38>> Yes, but I can tell you I lived it, I
1:06:41lived it. A man of the left.
1:06:43>> I'll tell you, I have profound respect
1:06:45and peace to his soul for Thierry
1:06:46Ardisson, because he was one of the
1:06:48first to invite the mutilated onto his
1:06:49set.
1:06:50>> And who gave the floor to the mutilated
1:06:51. Okay. We're in a debate, I have two
1:06:53Macronists in front of me, I crush them
1:06:55because, what's more, they were easy to
1:06:56crush at the time. The guys had just
1:06:58arrived, they thought they were
1:06:59champions, we, we crushed them. The
1:07:01show ends. Thierry, I will remember how
1:07:03Thierry Ardisson takes me, he greets
1:07:05and thanks the two Macronists, he takes
1:07:07me by the shoulder, he brings me a
1:07:08little further away, and he says to me,
1:07:10because at the time the legend was that
1:07:11I was a plumber. He looks at me and
1:07:13says, "Damn, where do you come from to
1:07:15talk like that?""Where did you get such
1:07:17a gift of gab?"
1:07:18>> Of course. "
1:07:18>> What do you do for a living?" And there
1:07:20, I have a choice. Either I tell him I
1:07:21was in sales for 20 years, that I
1:07:23managed stores with up to 11 million
1:07:24euros in revenue and that I could
1:07:26negotiate anything, sell sand to a
1:07:27nomad in the desert. Or I say I'm a
1:07:29plumber and I go all in as a plumber.
1:07:31>> But damn, a plumber, do they talk like
1:07:32that? You...I mean, I carry it in my
1:07:36heart, you see. It's not even, you know
1:07:38, because you're a plumber, you're just
1:07:40a guy to unclog the crap, you know. No,
1:07:42I know guys who are capable of running
1:07:44shops, but in front of a camera, they
1:07:46will be...they will be...they will melt
1:07:48down, you know. It's this kind of
1:07:50>> class contempt Yeah
1:07:52>> yeah not necessarily class contempt but
1:07:53saying how can a plumber talk like that
1:07:55, it's just not possible, it
1:07:56>> there are former bankers who rack up a
1:07:58trillion in debt Yeah finance. Come on.
1:08:04And then the real problem of
1:08:05representative democracy. That's why
1:08:07there's 1%of workers and employees in
1:08:09the National Assembly when they make up
1:08:1050%of the French population, because
1:08:12the doors are automatically closed
1:08:13within political parties. We
1:08:15automatically assume they don't have
1:08:16the right. They need a spokesperson,
1:08:18someone more sophisticated and so on,
1:08:20who will carry something on their
1:08:22behalf that they aren't capable of. And
1:08:24even in reality, you are right to point
1:08:26out this instrumentalization of the
1:08:28Yellow Vests as a kind of fetish that
1:08:29they bring back a bit to distract
1:08:31people. So they say "We'll always take
1:08:33the same ones, we'll put them on the
1:08:34set and say so is this the revolution
1:08:35or not?" A bit, basically by
1:08:37anticipating failure and trying to
1:08:39extinguish the thing. That's why it
1:08:41won't be played out on the talk shows.
1:08:44It's obvious that whether people
1:08:45mobilize or not, whether there's
1:08:47agreement or not, it won't be because
1:08:48of the slogans you or I might give
1:08:50regarding the 17th. It's because at
1:08:53some point, the breakdown, in economic,
1:08:55material, and psychic terms, will be so
1:08:57significant that people will be ready,
1:08:58in fact, to take risks and to take the
1:09:00risks they've seen us take and whose
1:09:02consequences they've seen, and they'll
1:09:03say: "it's still worth it." I'll use
1:09:06the example of Senegal again because
1:09:07it's interesting because I lived
1:09:08through it very closely. There were 75
1:09:10deaths by gunfire from the repression
1:09:11of protests by the best friend of
1:09:13Emmanuel Macron, who had recruited him
1:09:15even before the end of his term, Macky
1:09:17Sall. 75 deaths, and people continued
1:09:18to go out into the streets. People—
1:09:21there were 1,000 people in pre-trial
1:09:23detention, not just arrested or placed
1:09:25in police custody, but in detention in
1:09:27the prison where I was, in Rebeuss. I
1:09:29was in the most, the most luxurious
1:09:31prison. There were 12 of us in 10
1:09:34square meters, but there were cells
1:09:36next door, two 50-square-meter cells
1:09:38where there were 250 people per floor,
1:09:40so they couldn't even lie down to sleep
1:09:42. That's Rebeuss prison. Well, they
1:09:45weren't afraid and they continued, they
1:09:47didn't give up because they wanted to
1:09:49take back their sovereignty. And at
1:09:51some point, the French people will have
1:09:53to choose whether they want to move
1:09:55past this hatred that they keep trying
1:09:57to fuel through media, internet,
1:09:58violence—it can be legitimate.
1:10:00>> I'm not saying violence, what is it?
1:10:02What is it? What is more violent? As
1:10:04Jean Genet used to say—I say it every
1:10:05time—one of the greatest writers of
1:10:07the 20th century, a rose that is born,
1:10:08a rose that bursts its bud. What is
1:10:10more violent than this rupture of an
1:10:12ecosystem that seemed to be working
1:10:14well? There was a bud that was pretty
1:10:16and so on, and yet look at what it
1:10:17brings to life. And that is violence.
1:10:19Violence at some point is the break
1:10:21with the established order, and it can
1:10:22take any form on earth. Must we
1:10:25>> must we attack people?
1:10:26>> Must we attack bodies? No. Why? Because
1:10:29otherwise we resemble them. Otherwise
1:10:30we become like them. Does that mean we
1:10:32shouldn't establish a balance of power?
1:10:34Which pushes toward civil war
1:10:36>> to say when there is money to buy
1:10:38armored vehicles, weapons of war, tear
1:10:40gas grenades, rifles, create BRAV-M
1:10:42units, create CRS8 units, create
1:10:44intelligence posts, create facial
1:10:46recognition surveillance. When there is
1:10:48money for that, why is there no money
1:10:49for
1:10:49>> rather than taking into account the
1:10:51demands of the people,
1:10:52>> as simply as that? giving them a voice
1:10:56that forces us into a power struggle
1:10:58constantly and pretends to want to
1:10:59engage in dialogue. We had the "Great
1:11:01Debate," which was the "Great Monologue
1:11:03" during the Yellow Vests movement.
1:11:04Today, they are doing it again with
1:11:06discussion platforms for I don't know
1:11:07what. Well, it's the grievance
1:11:09registers. In fact, they don't want to
1:11:10engage in dialogue, they don't want to
1:11:11listen. And I mean the the problem is
1:11:13that these people are for the most part
1:11:15, honestly, they're incompetent. I mean
1:11:17, here on this set as we are, I can
1:11:19tell you that who has said anything
1:11:21stupid on this set here? Absolutely no
1:11:24one. Everyone has been saying
1:11:25intelligent things here for a while now
1:11:26. I mean, I mean, let's look at our
1:11:28daughters. Yes, they're fine. But I
1:11:31think when you look at the insipid,
1:11:33dull speeches of these pseudo-important
1:11:35representatives, I was debating last
1:11:37week with the vice-president of the
1:11:39National Assembly, a Horizons deputy,
1:11:41and she is lost. I discussed things
1:11:44during the debate, but before, after,
1:11:46they are lost, they don't know what to
1:11:47do anymore because, in fact, you have
1:11:49to understand, Macron, he took the
1:11:50logic to the end. He applied what all
1:11:52these pseudo-elites thought needed to
1:11:54be applied for 40 years. They did it.
1:11:56They carried out the whole program; 10
1:11:57years later, the results are zero, zero
1:11:59, zero, zero, zero everywhere. No
1:12:01growth, no reindustrialization, no drop
1:12:03in unemployment, a trade balance, well,
1:12:05in the red, 1.3 trillion in debt,
1:12:07everything is bad. There's only one
1:12:09indicator that works well, and that's
1:12:11the privileges of those at the very top
1:12:13. Well, it's clear, if we let them,
1:12:14they'll take everything from us. So we
1:12:16must mobilize because they are useless,
1:12:18but they are also clinging to their
1:12:20privileges. So, if you will,
1:12:22intelligence is in the people, and it's
1:12:23time to bring forth a true elite that
1:12:25will come from the people. That's the
1:12:27case for Jérôme and Maxime. But look
1:12:29at the youth, too. Look at the kids
1:12:31there, how they speak on the shows.
1:12:33Have you seen how intelligent and
1:12:34enlightened they are? They've
1:12:35understood everything, the kids.
1:12:36They've understood everything. And well
1:12:37, I am extremely proud, and I say it as
1:12:39I think it. I've sometimes had moments
1:12:41of doubt, but I've found hope in my
1:12:42country again. I tell myself that my
1:12:44country still has a youth in a very
1:12:48insurrectional relationship. According
1:12:50to you, Étienne
1:12:50>> in my opinion, we need to talk properly
1:12:53about blockades. Should we block or not
1:12:56block? Because it's a real issue, and I
1:12:59think that the Yellow Vests—correct
1:13:01me if I'm wrong, Jérôme—but it
1:13:02seems to me that throughout the first
1:13:04part of the original Yellow Vests, we
1:13:06weren't blocking anything. We were at
1:13:08the roundabouts, we saw each other, we
1:13:10talked to people, we invited them to
1:13:12come talk to us. We were building a
1:13:14society, actually. We were being
1:13:15exemplary, we were leaving our homes,
1:13:16we were building society in public
1:13:18spaces while being careful not to show
1:13:19whether we were left-wing or right-wing
1:13:21. So, we were ready to fraternize. And
1:13:23we discovered we weren't alone. We
1:13:24discovered who we were, and we turned
1:13:26shame into anger, and that was
1:13:28exemplary. And we weren't blocking
1:13:30anything. And since we weren't blocking
1:13:31anything, and what's more, we were
1:13:33opening the toll booths, we were
1:13:34restoring free access, freedom, free
1:13:36access, the freedom to travel.
1:13:37>> Absolutely. And so we could do the same
1:13:39with parking lots, we could also make
1:13:41exiting Bordeaux completely free, in
1:13:44fact, lots of things.
1:13:45>> What I mean is that this first part of
1:13:47the Yellow Vest movement, what I call
1:13:49the original core, it was—remember—
1:13:51it was very popular at the beginning.
1:13:53We were popular, meaning that we
1:13:55weren't bothering anyone. What's the
1:13:57point of bothering people? What's the
1:13:58point of bothering people? Bothering
1:14:01Macron, bothering the exploiters, sure.
1:14:04But bothering people, it’s actually a
1:14:06misplaced fury, like a bull driven mad
1:14:08by a fly, as if we were—I don't know
1:14:10what role the unions play when they
1:14:12tell us to "block everything." It's as
1:14:15if they were leading us to create an
1:14:17unbearable situation so that we would
1:14:19become unpopular, which would then
1:14:21legitimize repression. I think that
1:14:24being everywhere at roundabouts or
1:14:26other places we choose, and being, uh,
1:14:28thinking like a political adult,
1:14:30thinking—not blocking, but thinking
1:14:32as a political adult about the society
1:14:34we want and how we are going to
1:14:35establish it. Because that's what it
1:14:38was: the Yellow Vests were initially
1:14:40formed at the roundabouts before ending
1:14:41up in Paris in confrontations with the
1:14:43police. And there, that was the end of
1:14:45the road, it was over, it was lost from
1:14:47the start, and we became unpopular. I
1:14:50don't understand, you don't agree? With
1:14:52what? With the fact that we became
1:14:53unpopular because of the roundabouts?
1:14:55The roundabouts bothered...The
1:14:58roundabouts were an enormous nuisance.
1:15:00>> Oh yes.
1:15:01>> It bothered people.
1:15:02>> Personally, I think it bothered the
1:15:03powers that be. I'll explain why,
1:15:04because the roundabout—the roundabout
1:15:06had its importance, but there was
1:15:07something much more important in the
1:15:09middle of that roundabout.
1:15:10>> The fire. What has fire been doing
1:15:13since the dawn of time?
1:15:14>> It brings us together.
1:15:15>> It brings us together, it cooks our
1:15:16food and it warms us too. And in the
1:15:19gloom of November when night fell at 5
1:15:22PM, there were simply these flames
1:15:24licking your face and
1:15:26>> that didn't allow you to distinguish
1:15:27the person standing in front of you.
1:15:28Maybe the voice, a man, a woman, maybe
1:15:30a little younger, a little older, and
1:15:31yet people knew how to listen to each
1:15:32other.
1:15:33>> Yeah. Or or
1:15:34>> it created a social bond. The the the
1:15:36roundabout and this fire in the middle
1:15:37of the roundabout was a factory for
1:15:39social bonds. People had the ability to
1:15:41listen to each other
1:15:43>> and notice that in the end, whether
1:15:44you're this or that, old or young, you
1:15:46have the same struggles, you have the
1:15:48same difficulties making ends meet,
1:15:49people listened to each other talk.
1:15:51>> It repoliticized things there. Exactly,
1:15:52and the fact that people talk to each
1:15:54other, people talk, it bothered those
1:15:56in power. Almost to the point of
1:15:58>> being a bit of a conspiracy theorist,
1:16:00one wonders if Covid was meant to cut
1:16:02that social bond. Everyone at home,
1:16:04nobody talking to anyone else, each to
1:16:05their own problems, you know. And
1:16:06that's what scared the powers that be.
1:16:08I remember, I had gone to protest in
1:16:09Angoulême, there were five roundabouts
1:16:11. That morning, I had visited all five
1:16:13roundabouts. We left to protest in
1:16:14Paris. Well, uh, we went to protest in
1:16:16Angoulême. Rodriguez is there.
1:16:17Everyone is leaving the roundabouts.
1:16:19Well, by the time we finished the
1:16:20protest, they had cleared all five
1:16:21roundabouts.
1:16:22>> Yes, but you're really—I think you're
1:16:24right, but you have to answer because
1:16:26it's an important response. The fact
1:16:29that we are politicizing ourselves and
1:16:31rebuilding society, that we are forging
1:16:32unity without blocking things. In my
1:16:34opinion, it's major. I don't know what
1:16:36you're going to say. I'm sure you agree
1:16:38with that, though.
1:16:39>> Can I have 30 seconds? The thing is,
1:16:41the government was naive at the time.
1:16:43It let the Yellow Vests settle in for a
1:16:45few days, and then orders were given to
1:16:47clear everyone out. So I can tell you
1:16:49that if they occupy the roundabouts now
1:16:51, they will be removed immediately. And
1:16:53wait, and the p—no, that's no. Well,
1:16:57for me at the Vaches roundabout, I can
1:16:58tell you that this roundabout was
1:17:00dismantled a dozen times, and the tolls
1:17:02, well, the tolls, don't you worry,
1:17:04they adapted very quickly by sending
1:17:05users to grab people's identities to be
1:17:07able to prosecute them now.
1:17:10>> Yes, so the means of action like that,
1:17:12which worked at the beginning, which
1:17:14were means of civil disobedience or
1:17:15simply gathering at roundabouts and...
1:17:17>> Today, the authorities are very, very
1:17:18prepared, straight to the bulldozer in
1:17:20three acts; well, you have to keep that
1:17:21in mind, it's like we left the
1:17:23roundabouts and we rebuilt these
1:17:24roundabouts.
1:17:24>> Yes, of course. We tried again, we kept
1:17:26going, and at one point, obviously, a
1:17:28few of them held out. But, on the whole
1:17:30, even then, I mean, what gratuitous
1:17:32violence to go and destroy things that
1:17:34bother no one and which, as you say,
1:17:36only...so we are facing this violence.
1:17:39And, furthermore, the other point on
1:17:41which I disagree is that it was from
1:17:42Act 1, the protests in Paris, and from
1:17:44Act 2, and...and we were still very
1:17:46popular at the time. We were very
1:17:47popular. Very, we shouldn't, we
1:17:50shouldn't, we shouldn't pit the methods
1:17:52against each other.
1:17:53>> No, I'm not pitting them against each
1:17:53other. The biodiversity of struggles is
1:17:56important, there is, there is, there is
1:17:58a point where no one has a PhD in how
1:18:00to bring down a government, and and and
1:18:02a PhD wouldn't be useful because every
1:18:04situation can actually topple because
1:18:06of one dynamic or another. And on the
1:18:08contrary, we must maximize inspirations
1:18:10and ideas, see which ones penetrate,
1:18:11which ones hurt, which ones cause fear,
1:18:13which ones...I can tell you that when I
1:18:15saw all the stations around the
1:18:16National Assembly and Matignon during
1:18:18the protests, the subway stations
1:18:19closed, I said to myself: "Well,
1:18:20there's a government that's afraid of
1:18:22high school students." What does that
1:18:24say about its fragility, even just a
1:18:25few months before its departure?
1:18:27>> Even while, and you, what makes this
1:18:29moment historic? There has never been a
1:18:31social movement 6 months before a
1:18:32presidential election. Why? Because the
1:18:34presidential election's function is to
1:18:36put people to sleep. Yes. It has the,
1:18:38it has the function of making you
1:18:40believe in the system in place again,
1:18:42and there, and there...they aren't
1:18:46biting.
1:18:47>> Citizens are saying: "No, no, we don't
1:18:49believe that in 6 months X or Y will
1:18:50solve the problem." So, we need to take
1:18:52back control of our destiny right now,
1:18:54and if necessary, keep up the pressure
1:18:56until the end. presidential election.
1:18:57” And that’s it, we’re talking
1:18:59about the 17th, we’re exposing
1:19:00ourselves. Let’s say the 17th
1:19:02doesn’t take off, and so we’re
1:19:03going to, we’re going to look
1:19:04ridiculous, we’re going to not force
1:19:06—we are in…no, we have to build a
1:19:07balance of power up to the presidential
1:19:09election and beyond. We have to prepare
1:19:11ourselves for the violence it will
1:19:12generate. The 17th is a starting point,
1:19:15a starting point where there will be
1:19:17successes in some cities and failures
1:19:19in others. There will be kids who are
1:19:21currently getting all worked up with
1:19:22hashtags everywhere who will come, and
1:19:24others who will ultimately stay home.
1:19:25Why? Because they are the first ones
1:19:27exposed to police and political
1:19:29violence. They know very well that they
1:19:30will be the first ones targeted. So
1:19:31they’ll say to themselves, "No,
1:19:33listen, we'll let others go and we’ll
1:19:34have to build from there and not let
1:19:36ourselves be determined by parameters
1:19:38we didn't even set ourselves." Like
1:19:39Jérôme said, it’s a guy who at one
1:19:41point saw there was an issue and who
1:19:43asked ChatGPT when it should be done.
1:19:46If we, if we gamble our political life
1:19:48on this date,
1:19:49>> we are disconcertingly naive because we
1:19:51gave them a month to prepare, and they
1:19:52have the centurions and they have
1:19:54people paid to slaughter us. So we have
1:19:56to, we have to be
1:19:57>> What would happen if a portion of the
1:19:58law enforcement forces refused to obey
1:20:00one day? You’ve considered that. It
1:20:02would change everything. It would
1:20:03change everything.
1:20:03>> That would change everything.
1:20:04>> It would change everything, right?
1:20:05>> It would change everything because I
1:20:06think, I think it would even become
1:20:08much less violent. And yes,
1:20:09>> it would become much less violent the
1:20:11moment—I’m taking an example
1:20:12because I am
1:20:13>> consider that.
1:20:14>> Oh, well yes, I dream of it. We need
1:20:18>> and in the same way as there, because I
1:20:19have, afterwards I
1:20:21>> I think we all dream of it, seeing
1:20:22police officers take off their helmets.
1:20:24This afternoon, something a bit
1:20:25incredible happened to me, but
1:20:26something I’m used to, and the friend
1:20:28accompanying me will confirm it for you
1:20:30. We passed in front of a huge squadron
1:20:32of riot police. Hello, Mr. Rodriguez.
1:20:34Mr. Rodriguez, are you doing better?
1:20:36>> And yes,
1:20:36>> and another one comes along. Hello, Mr.
1:20:37Rodriguez. Selfies with cops. I’ve
1:20:40taken quite a few, and I have plenty of
1:20:42other anecdotes like that too, because
1:20:45it’s—not everything is bad. There
1:20:49are certainly some totally deranged
1:20:50guys in some squads who are just there
1:20:51to beat people up; I think the BRAV-M
1:20:53is borderline, but there are others.
1:20:55You know, during the Yellow Vests
1:20:57movement, it wasn't the CRS riot police
1:20:59who were gouging out eyes. It was guys
1:21:01from the BAC or CSI who had no business
1:21:02being in crowd control. The guy who
1:21:04blinded me was a CSI officer.
1:21:06>> A guy who had no business being there.
1:21:07And some CRS officers told me, "We've
1:21:09had enough of those people, they're
1:21:11ruining our work,"
1:21:12>> because they didn't have the culture of
1:21:14maintaining order, of being able to
1:21:16hold back, delay, and channel a crowd,
1:21:18you see. So it's
1:21:19>> conversely, if law enforcement, or part
1:21:21of law enforcement changed, the army
1:21:23could also be called in to
1:21:24>> No, but look, I just want to say one
1:21:25thing, just to compensate for the loss
1:21:27of control. Just just to add to what
1:21:29was just said, it's a huge mistake by
1:21:31what I consider the institutional left
1:21:34to denounce police violence on one hand
1:21:36as if it weren't political. It's as if
1:21:39the problem were a failure on the part
1:21:41of the law enforcement officers
1:21:42themselves, and not the instructions
1:21:44they were given to go out and cause
1:21:46harm. And secondly, to denounce them as
1:21:48if they were just excesses. When in
1:21:50fact, causing someone to lose an eye or
1:21:52ripping off a hand is a message being
1:21:53sent. It’s not—it's not a mistake.
1:21:56Today, and the comparison doesn't
1:21:58necessarily make it right, and what I'm
1:21:59about to say might seem shocking. Take
1:22:01any revolt, even just for example on
1:22:04Maidan Square: a guy fell, he died—he
1:22:06was bearded, for that matter—he was
1:22:08made into a symbol on the shields of
1:22:10the Ukrainians at the time; you could
1:22:12see his face. What happens? He's dead.
1:22:15It's sad, we bury him. For us, life
1:22:17goes on, we'll commemorate him the
1:22:19following year. What they did to the
1:22:21Yellow Vests and what they are doing to
1:22:22high school students and some union
1:22:24members too, even just during the
1:22:25pension battle, is that they make us
1:22:26wear terror on our faces. Today, we are
1:22:28a living advertisement for all citizens
1:22:31of what you must not do in France. We
1:22:34—we—we are alive. We carry the pain
1:22:37within us, we carry the martyrdom
1:22:38within us, we carry the mutilation
1:22:40within us. How many guys have come up
1:22:41to me saying, "No, but Jérôme, have
1:22:42you seen your face? I'm not going out
1:22:44into the street." And if I if I lose an
1:22:45eye, I lose my job, because do you
1:22:47think I'd still have mine? That's where
1:22:49we are today; they're making us carry
1:22:51the terror. We are, after all, in a
1:22:52so-called democracy that blinds people.
1:22:54One day, I came across a Libération
1:22:56article on Twitter that talked about 21
1:22:58women in one of the Iranian revolts, I
1:23:00think the previous one, where they had
1:23:02blinded them. 21. I took the liberty of
1:23:05tweeting, "Funny, though: when eyes are
1:23:06put out in France, we don't get that
1:23:07kind of article.""Oh, but it's not the
1:23:09same thing."
1:23:10>> Yeah. It's almost as if, in our psyche,
1:23:12it's perhaps more normal that in an
1:23:14Iranian dictatorship, people get their
1:23:16eyes put out when they're unhappy. But
1:23:18in a French democracy, something is
1:23:20wrong. And besides, what distinguishes
1:23:22the eye of a Yellow Vest woman from the
1:23:23eye of an Iranian woman?
1:23:25>> Well yes, of course.
1:23:26>> That's where we are today, and that's
1:23:27it. We wear the terror on our faces.
1:23:29>> We mustn't be naive about the fact that
1:23:31this is part of a deliberate strategy.
1:23:33Oh, but I'm I'm convinced of it,
1:23:35actually; I wanted to ask you: can a
1:23:37revolt succeed without, well, without
1:23:39the disloyalty of the police forces?
1:23:43Well.
1:23:43>> I think that, in any case,
1:23:44>> the police forces remain loyal to the
1:23:46power. Can there be a revolt?
1:23:48>> Well, we can win, of course we can win,
1:23:49but '68—well, in '68, I didn't see
1:23:51police officers lowering their shields
1:23:53or anything; it's just that the country
1:23:54was on general strike. That's what
1:23:56happened; it's that we have to get away
1:23:58from the idea that we'll succeed only
1:24:00through protesting. Meaning that with a
1:24:02power this crazy, we could be 100
1:24:03million people, but if we're just in
1:24:05the street protesting, it won't be
1:24:06enough. The only right that is—in
1:24:09fact, they've killed the freedom to
1:24:10protest somehow by actually causing
1:24:12fear. And so, well, you have to be
1:24:14brave today to go protest in Paris,
1:24:15right? Because when you know how it
1:24:17goes, it's dangerous.
1:24:19>> That's right, it's very dangerous. Yes.
1:24:21And that's the—that's the best of—
1:24:22there, that's the minimum. Uh, so, the
1:24:25other right we have, and it's, and it's
1:24:27simply, and that's why we can be a bit
1:24:29annoyed with the unions for setting a
1:24:31date on November 5th. And good heavens,
1:24:34for goodness 'sake, if this isn't the
1:24:36time to mobilize, to call for a strike
1:24:38to allow people to get, uh, into the
1:24:39movement, well, I, I don't know when
1:24:41the time is. And so, we need a strike
1:24:43because against that, they can do
1:24:44nothing. They can't force people to
1:24:46work, they can't put a police officer
1:24:47behind them to force a guy to work,
1:24:49they can't do that. In
1:24:50>> the inter-union group pulled the same
1:24:52trick on us with the truckers, I think
1:24:53it was between Act 3 and Act 4. There
1:24:55was a strike call for truckers that
1:24:57they cancelled once they had obtained
1:24:58their
1:24:59>> their specific trade benefits. Can a
1:25:02revolution still be peaceful?
1:25:03>> No, Fran because there will be, there
1:25:07will be blood spilled from ours, from
1:25:08the block
1:25:09>> from our side. That's obvious. But, but
1:25:12how much, but that's already the case
1:25:15today.
1:25:15>> They'll talk to you, they'll talk to
1:25:16you about—I'm of Portuguese descent
1:25:18on my father's side. They'll talk to
1:25:20you about the Portuguese Carnation
1:25:22Revolution, okay?
1:25:25>> Uh, where they tell you it went very
1:25:26well, they put a little carnation in
1:25:27the rifle barrel and that's nice and
1:25:29all. Looking back, two summers ago, I
1:25:31went to see people, I asked, "What were
1:25:33you doing that April 24th? What did you
1:25:35do that day, among those who were
1:25:36afraid?" But there was blood, there
1:25:38were about a dozen deaths after all. So
1:25:40, they tell you about the Portuguese
1:25:42revolution, that it's a peaceful
1:25:43revolution. I don't think so. In any
1:25:45case, whatever happens, even in our
1:25:46history books, we've always been taught
1:25:47that revolution, somewhere, it implies
1:25:48it. Are we ready to bleed today? Are we
1:25:50ready to lose everything when we've
1:25:52already lost so much, to perhaps win
1:25:54everything in the end? And that, you
1:25:56have to prepare for it mentally. We are
1:25:57a generation that hasn't known war,
1:25:59hasn't known blood, hasn't known, uh,
1:26:01being shot at. So, it's very, very
1:26:02difficult to grasp for the majority of
1:26:04the population. And just like that, we
1:26:07>> don't know, what will be the next step?
1:26:09If, sorry
1:26:10>> if Macron doesn't give in in the coming
1:26:11weeks on many subjects, what will
1:26:14>> I would love to be a psychic. What I
1:26:16can imagine is that, well, he was
1:26:18talking about Greece earlier, and today
1:26:21in Greece, the police are being
1:26:23attacked with Molotov cocktails because
1:26:25people are revolting. That's what can
1:26:28happen when people have nothing left to
1:26:31lose. Yes,
1:26:32>> but honestly, that's not what you want,
1:26:33is it? You want.
1:26:35>> No, but I think that no one—let’s
1:26:37be clear, let’s be very clear—no
1:26:39one wants death, neither citizens, nor
1:26:41police, no one wants that. I don't wake
1:26:44up in the morning saying to myself I
1:26:46want to kill cops and I want to go kill
1:26:47. Never in my life has it happened that
1:26:50I wake up in the morning like that, yet
1:26:52citizen anger can potentially lead to
1:26:54that.
1:26:55>> Of course.
1:26:56>> To defend themselves. Do you honestly
1:26:58think that over these last years, I
1:26:59didn't have anything better to do with
1:27:01my life than to come fight for rights
1:27:03that should be natural?
1:27:05>> At every one of my talks, someone comes
1:27:07to see me. And what’s funny is that
1:27:09several times—the same term has come
1:27:11up—someone comes to see me, asks to
1:27:13speak aside for a moment, and says, "I
1:27:14have a rifle, you tell me what to do."
1:27:17And so we are moderating forces, we are
1:27:20people who are still trying to
1:27:22>> make a few people smile.
1:27:23>> No, it’s yes, but it just goes to
1:27:25show how disconnected they are. At one
1:27:29point, he welcomed the hunters. He gave
1:27:30them a lot of freedom. He bought them,
1:27:32he has them. Bought them, at a certain
1:27:35point, you can no longer buy them, and
1:27:37we have to be very careful because, if
1:27:39there are no mediating bodies, then, if
1:27:40we continue to blind them, pursue them,
1:27:42harass them, well, at some point, they
1:27:44will find themselves facing that anger
1:27:46directly. And there, and there the
1:27:48drift begins, there will be blood,
1:27:50there will be violence. We are trying
1:27:52to build alternatives. Everyone in
1:27:54their own way. Everyone, civil society,
1:27:56movements, direct action. Whatever the
1:27:59way. At some point, we try to regulate.
1:28:01>> It makes me laugh that you are laughing
1:28:03because the French state filed an
1:28:05Article 40 against us,
1:28:07>> which is, uh, an article that—Article
1:28:0940—is incitement to commit crimes and
1:28:11offenses, followed by the act.
1:28:13>> For the state, we—people like
1:28:15Jérôme and I—are inciting violence,
1:28:17when the call we made just a few days
1:28:19ago was for restraint and as much
1:28:21pacifism as possible. But I'm not the
1:28:24one pushing a button to make people do
1:28:26what they have to do. The anger doesn't
1:28:28come from me. People are in the streets
1:28:30and they aren't getting any answers.
1:28:31That's not my doing. So when we hear
1:28:34that—when you say it will make people
1:28:36laugh to hear that we are a force
1:28:38trying to calm things down—well, if
1:28:40you want, we'll stop.
1:28:43>> If you want, tomorrow, I'll tell people
1:28:44: listen, do what you want, and you
1:28:45have to go all the way.
1:28:46>> The day I had my eye put out, the next
1:28:48day on my hospital bed, I'll tell you,
1:28:50there were Yellow Vests who held it
1:28:52against me for not calling for war.
1:28:55>> Even though, yes, it's true that on the
1:28:56militant side, we’re getting smashed
1:28:58on the other side. That is to say, on
1:28:59the militant side, we're seen as
1:29:01traitors who are trying to make sure
1:29:02the government stays in power.
1:29:04>> By some. Yes, by some, because at the
1:29:06time, Drouet had written a text calling
1:29:08for an uprising and for it to be a
1:29:09total war, if only to avenge my eye and
1:29:11, in a way, those of others. Because I
1:29:13am, after all, the 19th or 20th guy who
1:29:15had an eye put out. I'm not the only
1:29:17one in the movement, it has to be
1:29:18remembered. There are about thirty of
1:29:19us, and I can still see myself doing
1:29:21that livestream, calling for calm
1:29:23because the following Saturday was
1:29:24likely to be very, very heated, and I
1:29:26didn't want my name to be associated
1:29:28with any deaths either.
1:29:29>> That's important.
1:29:30>> Exactly. And that, people tend to
1:29:31forget when they paint us as
1:29:33>> as agitators
1:29:34>> as agitators or guys who want people to
1:29:36die.
1:29:37>> We are reaching the end of this
1:29:39broadcast, the last 5 minutes, with
1:29:40everyone there on Saturday in Paris and
1:29:42the provinces. Where exactly will you
1:29:43be? I will be at the demonstration in
1:29:44Paris, between the riot police and the
1:29:45high school students.
1:29:46>> Paris, Jérôme?
1:29:47>> I’ll be wherever I happen to be so I
1:29:48don't get nabbed and taken into custody
1:29:50.
1:29:50>> I was going to say, if you aren't taken
1:29:52into custody, I won't have to go and
1:29:53get you out. But
1:29:55>> Oh, you fear that? Yes. We’ve
1:29:57experienced it as a preventive measure;
1:29:58it could be the
1:30:00>> we’d come out of the subway at a time
1:30:01when we were getting arrested
1:30:02immediately. We're going out
1:30:03>> because we thought, I don't remember
1:30:05how the article had been implemented.
1:30:07If we were potentially going to, it’s
1:30:09a bit like Minority Report, they
1:30:10arrested us before we’d committed an
1:30:12offense because they thought we were
1:30:13going to commit one, so that Mr.
1:30:14Macron's July 14th goes well and there
1:30:16are no yellow balloons and that
1:30:17>> we were arrested by 28 police officers,
1:30:20Jérôme and I, on our way to the
1:30:22Champs-Élysées
1:30:23>> and we were placed in police custody in
1:30:26cells side-by-side just for an
1:30:27intention to commit, when he was never
1:30:30convicted for just an intention to
1:30:32demonstrate or create something
1:30:35>> Even though there was a ban on
1:30:36demonstrating, because now we no longer
1:30:38have the right, fortunately, when the
1:30:40Pope comes, he reminds us that we could
1:30:41perfectly well have calm popular
1:30:43demonstrations on the Champs-Élysées
1:30:44and that, perhaps, the problem in
1:30:46reality is not us but those who lead us
1:30:47.
1:30:48>> Alright, a final word from each of you.
1:30:50François Boulot in one minute, the
1:30:54final word before the big demonstration
1:30:56.
1:30:56>> I think we need to be as numerous as
1:30:58possible. I think we need to be
1:30:59organized. I think we need to keep our
1:31:02cool, be methodical, agree to get
1:31:04structured, and seize the tools that
1:31:06are proposed for that. And, well,
1:31:09I’ll conclude with this quote that
1:31:10never leaves me, that I repeat all the
1:31:12time—I’m not being original, but
1:31:13it’s the one that gets me up in the
1:31:15morning and gives me hope, that makes
1:31:16me want to fight, it’s from Bertolt
1:31:18Brecht. Those who fight are not sure to
1:31:20win, but those who don't fight have
1:31:21already lost. Thank you François
1:31:24Boulot and for me, what I hope, and
1:31:30what I hope for the young people who
1:31:32are currently fighting and for the
1:31:35others, is that we will advance in
1:31:37thinking as political adults. I think
1:31:40that the as long as we accept elections
1:31:45, as long as we accept being political
1:31:47children, incapable, we are in a
1:31:49political prison and we struggle, we
1:31:51shout, we argue among ourselves,
1:31:53nothing changes. Whereas if we think as
1:31:57sovereigns and act as sovereigns, we
1:31:59organize our own votes at the local
1:32:01level, we become politicized, we become
1:32:03sovereigns, and the problems will be
1:32:05solved when we have the means, the
1:32:07political power to
1:32:09>> Thank you Étienne Chouard. I just want
1:32:14to tell the high school students what
1:32:15we learned a few years ago: that a
1:32:17political revolution is built over time
1:32:19, and it may take us 5 or 10 years to
1:32:20produce a radical break, or perhaps a
1:32:22few months, it doesn't matter. But in
1:32:24any case, it’s not in one day, and
1:32:26it's not just by our presence on
1:32:27Saturdays that we will manage to
1:32:29trigger something. However, if at some
1:32:32point each one of us doesn't take it
1:32:33upon ourselves to contribute to this
1:32:35revolution, whether through
1:32:36participation in this movement or
1:32:38another way, what is certain is that at
1:32:40some point the world will collapse upon
1:32:42us. Because we are at a moment where I
1:32:44must remind you that France dominated
1:32:46the world for a very long time
1:32:48alongside other countries, and they
1:32:49will be merciless toward us when they
1:32:51become more powerful than we are, which
1:32:53is what is starting to happen, and
1:32:54there are powers like China and others
1:32:56who will not hesitate to make us their
1:32:58slaves if they can do it tomorrow; and
1:33:00we are not far from that. And so there
1:33:02is our individual and personal destiny,
1:33:04but there is also in the historical
1:33:06evolution the destiny of a country as a
1:33:08whole that is losing the instruments to
1:33:10defend its own people.
1:33:12>> Thank you, Ran Banco. Thank you, Nicole
1:33:14. This closing remark doesn't come from
1:33:16me but from someone in the audience who
1:33:18slipped me a note, and I really like
1:33:19this sentence. Perseverance is
1:33:22invincible. It is through it that time
1:33:24in action destroys and overturns every
1:33:26power. I think they wanted to
1:33:28extinguish an idea. An idea grows, and
1:33:30we are all the proof of it today, along
1:33:32with everyone in the streets. So yes,
1:33:34to the young people, I would send a
1:33:35message; I would tell them your future
1:33:37will not be given to you, it's up to
1:33:39you to take it.
1:33:40>> Thank you, Maxime Nicole. And then,
1:33:41Jérôme, it's your turn to conclude.
1:33:43You arrived last. So, you are the one
1:33:45who has the last word?
1:33:46>> The final word.
1:33:47>> Yeah.
1:33:47>> End.
1:33:48>> Well, there you go.
1:33:49>> No,
1:33:50>> at the beginning of Saturday.
1:33:51>> Just kidding. I'm kidding.
1:33:54>> I can be very funny too. Uh no, anyway,
1:33:57to all those who would like to take to
1:33:59the streets today, be careful.
1:34:01>> That's clear.
1:34:02>> Take care of yourselves. Don't be
1:34:04>> know where you're stepping. At worst,
1:34:06come see us. We have some realities to
1:34:08tell you about, some mistakes we made
1:34:10that we don't want to make again. But
1:34:12stay safe, that's what's important. And
1:34:14also protect your family, because
1:34:16it’s very costly to get into the
1:34:18fight. But you gain a certain pride
1:34:21from it. And that the day we are old,
1:34:23rambling on, with our grandchildren, uh
1:34:25, on our knees, at least we will have
1:34:27the pride of telling them that, a bit
1:34:29like the phrase I forgot yours, at
1:34:31least we tried to do something. Only
1:34:33those who do nothing make no mistakes.
1:34:35>> Thank you very much, Jérôme Rodriguez
1:34:37. Alright, let’s finish on a humorous
1:34:39note. I also ask you to applaud him
1:34:41loudly because he really made wonderful
1:34:42drawings throughout the show. There you
1:34:44go, Etienne Schir by Ignas. If you want
1:34:47your caricature, by the way, go to
1:34:48dessignas.com. This one is for you,
1:34:50Étienne. So everyone has their
1:34:52caricature. Here you go Jérôme, you
1:34:54have yours too. Jérôme Rodriguez by
1:34:56Ignas. There we go.
1:34:58>> I’m handing out the gifts. Who is the
1:35:00third one for? Careful, it’s a bit
1:35:02like a mystery envelope. Ah, it’s for
1:35:04François Boulot. Here it is, it’s
1:35:05for you, François. And I suppose the
1:35:08last two are going to be for, for, oh,
1:35:11Maxime Nicole. There you go, Maxime.
1:35:13There. And finally the last one, I
1:35:15obviously know it’s for Juan, who is
1:35:17a regular on this set. So I think he
1:35:20must have again, oh, there you go,
1:35:21great. Let’s give a big round of
1:35:23applause. We thank, of course, there
1:35:26were a lot of people tonight, as with
1:35:28every episode of "Ministre Liberté,"
1:35:29by the way. I ask you to applaud them
1:35:31all very loudly as well. On directing,
1:35:33there was Raphaël. Bravo Raphaël. On
1:35:35camera, there were many of them tonight
1:35:37. There were three. There was Charles
1:35:40in front of me, as well as Pierre and
1:35:43Ral. Bravo to the three of you. It
1:35:45wasn’t easy, plus with the various
1:35:47speakers. On sound, There were two.
1:35:49There were Édouard and Pierre. In
1:35:52production, Arnaud and Martial, as well
1:35:54as Élise in management. Thanks to the
1:35:57audience above all. See you on Saturday
1:36:01the 17th, and as for us, we’ll meet
1:36:02again in two weeks for another "
1:36:04Liberté." Thank you.

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