YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Bishop Barron: The Reality of Demons, How to Fight Them With Prayer, & Debunking the New Atheists

Bishop Barron: The Reality of Demons, How to Fight Them With Prayer, & Debunking the New Atheists — Transcript

by Tucker Carlson · 19,276 words · 3,056 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00Do you think that Christian persecution
0:02is on the rise?
0:03Oh, I know it is. It's It's documented.
0:0520th century was the worst century for
0:07Christian martyrs of Christian history
0:08all the previous centuries combined.
0:10It's the most persecuted religion. If
0:12two friends like each other, that's
0:14fine. But Aristotle says, "That won't
0:17last that relationship." What makes it
0:19last is when the two friends together
0:21fall in love with a transcendent third.
0:23And now together we look to that, now we
0:27really find a bond. When the bride and
0:29groom together look to Christ, now
0:31they'll stay married. If they're just
0:33looking to each other,
0:34it'll founder. The Catholic Church got
0:36super liberal and then all of a sudden
0:38everywhere you look, people you know are
0:40converting to Catholicism with a pretty
0:42kind of traditionally Christian
0:44orientation. This how I would
0:45characterize ecclesial liberalism. A
0:48tendency to reduce the supernatural to
0:50the natural. That was going on for a
0:51long time. Yes. In very recent years,
0:54there's been a keener interest in
0:57the supernatural dimension of the faith.
1:20I don't think I've ever received more
1:22texts about any guest than I did about
1:25you.
1:26Um
1:27from Catholics I know, from
1:28non-Catholics I know, but Catholics all
1:30wanted to hear details on, you know,
1:33factions within the church and I'm not
1:34going to ask you any questions about
1:35that cuz I don't understand any of it.
1:38I want to start as broad as I possibly
1:39can, which is
1:41it seems like a lot of people in the
1:42West are unhappy and it's measurable.
1:44Suicide rates are
1:44Yep.
1:45um at record highs
1:48and um birth rates are at record lows
1:51and those are not signs of confidence in
1:52the future, those are signs of despair.
1:54W- Why are people unhappy?
1:58Well, they've lost a sense of God. I
1:59mean, God is the supreme good and when
2:01you lose that sense of God and you
2:03collapse back in on yourself, that's St.
2:05Augustine you said to find sin as
2:08curvatus in se. I'm caved in around
2:11myself.
2:12When you do that, you are by definition
2:14unhappy. When you lose a sense of
2:16objective value grounded in the supreme
2:19value of God, almost again by definition
2:22you become unhappy. What does it mean to
2:24cave in on yourself? It means that
2:26you've lost a sense of connection to the
2:28values that should be calling you out of
2:30yourself in an act of love and you've
2:32you've now come to reverence your own
2:34freedom, your own autonomy. So, what
2:38gives my life meaning is the fact that
2:39I've chosen something. I have determined
2:42my life.
2:43If the Bible has one message, it's that
2:46that when you live your life that way,
2:47you get lost. Uh when you deify your own
2:51psyche, your own ego, you get lost. The
2:55The joy of life comes from forgetting in
2:57this great ecstatic act. You forget
2:59about yourself and you lose yourself in
3:01some great value. Now that could be
3:04sports, that could be politics, whatever
3:05it is. But then the supreme value in
3:08which all the other ones participate, we
3:10call God. God is the highest good, the
3:12summum bonum. That's why you love the
3:15Lord your God. That's the first
3:16commandment, right? But when the
3:18culture's lost that, which ours is in
3:20danger of, um you by definition become
3:23unhappy. You get caved in around
3:25yourself.
3:26And then you fuss around in this kind of
3:28addictive way. Um that's how I would
3:30diagnose the thing spiritually.
3:33When you are in love with the idea of
3:36choices, I thought the whole point of
3:38the West was choices. Well, but you have
3:40to know what your choice is for.
3:42When you When you deify choice itself,
3:45when you say autonomy, that's my that's
3:47my God. No, choice is for some good and
3:51the idea is to is to order freedom,
3:54right? Freedom is not an end in itself.
3:55Freedom is ordered towards some good.
3:58When it's disordered, it tends to
4:00collapse in upon itself. That's what we
4:02got. The whole point of America I
4:04thought was choice and freedom for its
4:06own sake. Well, and I would argue it's
4:07not for its own sake and if that happens
4:10to us, something's gone wrong.
4:12The founding fathers, you know, they
4:14weren't
4:15in the full sense of the term. They
4:17wouldn't have the full Catholic
4:18imagination as I would like it, but they
4:21certainly had a sense of
4:23the objective good. And that the purpose
4:25of life is to find that good and be
4:27ordered toward it. An ordered freedom is
4:30what they're interested in, not freedom
4:31for its own sake. What does ordered
4:33mean? Ordered freedom?
4:34Ordered toward the good and that's why
4:36it has to be educated. Your freedom has
4:37to be disciplined and directed. It's
4:41like a kid with all kinds of athletic
4:42ability, but if a coach never directs
4:44that ability toward the achievement of
4:47some good that he can become a great
4:49tennis player or a great golfer, then
4:51the freedom it begins to just kind of
4:52stew on itself.
4:55No, direct freedom, direct talent,
4:57direct energy.
4:58And our culture see it's like
5:00I think of this
5:02If you have banks to a river, the river
5:04has energy, it's going somewhere. You
5:06knock down the banks, you say, "Oh, I
5:08don't want to be limited. Don't Don't
5:09set limits to my freedom."
5:11It just floods the fields.
5:12What It just opens up in this big lazy
5:14lake and everyone's just sort of lying
5:16on their air mattresses, right? Now I'll
5:18tolerate you, you tolerate me, I won't
5:19bother you, but then we're not getting
5:21anywhere. The point of the banks is not
5:24to restrict me, it's to direct me, see,
5:26toward some good.
5:28Well, religion has played that role for
5:29much of our history and and in the
5:31measure that religion gets marginalized
5:33and in the measure that we deify our
5:35autonomy,
5:37welcome to the unhappy world that many
5:39of the young people are living in sadly.
5:41Deify our autonomy. So, you're um
5:46speaking as if autonomy and choice are
5:48the same thing or closely related.
5:49auto See, the goal for the Bible is not
5:52autonomy, it's theonomy. Uh God, theos,
5:55becomes the nomos. God becomes the law
5:57of my life. And see, here's the trick.
6:01When God becomes the norm of my life,
6:04I become more myself. I I find who I
6:07really am.
6:08If I jettison God and I say, "No,
6:10autonomy. It's I'm the leader of my own
6:12life." I get lost, right? What's Jesus
6:15say? The one who uh loses himself, you
6:17know, will find it. The one who's who's
6:20trying to hang on to himself is going to
6:21lose it. Um
6:23lose your freedom in God's greater
6:26freedom and you become now authentically
6:28free. That's every spiritual master in
6:31the West teaches that lesson. But we
6:33lose it in the measure that we say, "No,
6:34it's all about my autonomy. That's all
6:36that matters." Don't tell me what to do.
6:38Throw off the rules. Right. Knock down
6:41the banks and the river becomes a lazy
6:42lake and
6:44we tolerate each other blandly, but we
6:46don't have a common purpose. That's
6:48another problem. See, if if you
6:50reject objective value, so you got your
6:52values, I got my values, your freedom,
6:54my freedom. Well, what connects us? In
6:57fact, we're antagonistic to each other,
6:59right? We tend to grow into hostility
7:01and my freedom's against your freedom.
7:03But if together we find a common good, a
7:06common goal, now we can join forces,
7:09right? So, it's it's falling in love,
7:11that's Aristotle, with the transcendent
7:14third. So, like if if two friends like
7:18each other, that's fine. But Aristotle
7:19says, "That won't last that
7:21relationship." What makes it last is
7:23when the two friends together fall in
7:26love with a transcendent third, the
7:28country or their or philosophy or some
7:31great value. And now together we look to
7:33that, now we really find a bond.
7:37Go back now to the 1950s and Fulton
7:39Sheen, the great Catholic preacher,
7:41writes a book called Three to Get
7:42Married, made the same argument, right?
7:44The three are the bride, the groom, and
7:46Christ.
7:48When the bride and groom together look
7:49to Christ, now they'll stay married. If
7:52they're just looking to each other,
7:54it'll founder.
7:57What are the banks that we've
7:59demolished?
8:00Well, I would say objective value. Uh
8:03you know, the the life of the mind, the
8:06the moral good, religious good,
8:08aesthetics. Think of the good, the true,
8:10and the beautiful. If we subjectivize
8:12those and just relativize them. You got
8:14yours, I got mine. What you think is
8:16right, I I think is wrong.
8:18When that's lost, the banks are knocked
8:20down.
8:21But when together
8:23we can together reverence
8:25the beautiful, we can together reverence
8:27the moral good, we can together
8:29reverence the epistemological good, the
8:31the intellectual good, um then together
8:34we move someplace. And see, our whole
8:37system educationally was set up
8:39classically to do just that, was to
8:42train people in what these objectivities
8:44are.
8:45Uh but when you subjectivize those or
8:48you see it simply as part of an
8:49oppressive or patriarchal system, you
8:52know, why do we Why read Shakespeare?
8:53He's just an old patriarch. See, but
8:55that's a very dangerous game to play.
8:57Now we've lost a common mooring and then
9:00we devolve into this sort of
9:02self-regarding um autonomy.
9:05So, I mean,
9:06Christianity is probably not the I don't
9:08think it's the only religion to make
9:09this point, but self is the trap. Yeah.
9:13Yeah, it See, you think of the self
9:15here, the ego is like a black hole, a
9:17black hole that will draw everything
9:18into itself.
9:20Sucks all of life and light and energy
9:22into itself. Nothing can escape.
9:25The curvatus in se ego, right, becomes a
9:28black hole. And I've known people like
9:30that, I'm sure you have too.
9:32You're with them, they'll draw
9:34everything into themselves.
9:36The best people are those who breathe
9:38life into a room and that happens
9:40because they're not preoccupied with the
9:42ego, they're they're captivated by some
9:44objective good
9:45Yes. and they want to show it to you.
9:48Think of some like great coaches I had
9:49as a kid that wanted to show me the
9:51various games I learned to play,
9:53baseball. We had a coach when I was a
9:55little guy, 7 8 years old and he said,
9:57"All guys, I want you to get down on
9:58your hands and knees on the field. I
10:00want you to feel the infield. And I want
10:03you to to smell the grass, you know? And
10:06it was a it was such a good move. He was
10:08trying to get us in Look at this great
10:09game we're playing here. He also
10:11practically, if you're playing
10:12shortstop, you can't be afraid of the
10:14ground. You got to get down on the
10:15ground. You got
10:15Exactly. So, all right, boys, get down
10:17there, you know? Well, he was someone in
10:19love with baseball and then was
10:21communicating to us the same love. So,
10:23together we'd fall in love with the
10:25transcendent third, which is baseball.
10:27That's going to bring a team together,
10:29right? Uh that's what great teachers and
10:32coaches and mentors and spiritual
10:33directors do. They they help people fall
10:36in love with the same values they fall
10:38in love with.
10:40And fall in love with something bigger
10:42than themselves, you know, other people,
10:43nature, God. And look at even that word
10:45fall in love, right? You you you're not
10:47in control. You've let go of your own
10:50ego drama. I love that language from uh
10:53Hans Urs von Balthasar, one of my
10:55favorite theologians from the last
10:56century. John Paul loved him and
10:58Benedict loved him.
10:59Um he talked about the ego drama, which
11:01is the drama that I'm starring in, I'm
11:04producing it, I'm directing it, right?
11:07And you're all actors in my play.
11:10Yes, you're all actors in my play and
11:11I'm going to take it on the road
11:12eventually somewhere else.
11:14Well, that's that's a very boring uh
11:16thing. What's exciting, he said, was the
11:18theo drama, which is you know, God's
11:20writing a drama, God's producing a
11:21drama. He's got a role for you and he's
11:24trying to draw you into into playing
11:25that role. And it might not be the role
11:27at all that you envisioned for yourself.
11:29So, what? But he's calling you into it.
11:31That's going to be an exciting life, a
11:33theo dramatic life, a theonomous life,
11:36not an autonomous life. Oh, that's Well,
11:39that's vivid.
11:41So, what's the daily practice for
11:43someone to move beyond themself, to get
11:46out of Lake Me?
11:47Fall in love with objective value. Uh
11:49find mentors that can really help you
11:51enter that world. Like I've In my own
11:53life, I've loved that. You know, I'm no
11:55great uh I I play the guitar poorly. But
11:58I I love classical music and I had
11:59mentors early on that Let me play you,
12:02you know, Beethoven's 7th Symphony. Let
12:04me just play it for you and and then
12:05talk about it. Um I remember the the the
12:09Queen of the Night Aria, the famous
12:10Mozart aria with the
12:11woman singing these impossibly high
12:13notes. I remember teachers I Listen,
12:15listen to this. Uh some of that would
12:18draw me into that world, like my coach
12:20is drawing me into baseball.
12:22Now, put it in religious context,
12:23prayer.
12:25People that taught me how to pray when I
12:26was a young guy. We Okay, say my
12:28prayers.
12:29No, but prayer is a conscious exercise
12:33in overcoming autonomy.
12:35It's a conscious exercise to say, "I
12:37want to get out of my preoccupations.
12:40I'm placing myself in the presence of
12:42God.
12:43I'm using language of the Psalms and so
12:45on. I'm using song, I'm using silence,
12:47I'm using the rosary, whatever it is.
12:50All of this is designed to get me up out
12:51of myself
12:53and into the space of God. So, prayer is
12:56a way, you know, to overcome
12:57pray?
12:59You said you were taught to pray.
13:00I was, indeed. Um
13:02very early on, when I was about in my
13:04early 20s, before I was a priest, but I
13:06got into the what we call the liturgy of
13:07the hours in the Catholic Church, which
13:09is this daily prayer at certain points
13:11during the day, imitating, by the way,
13:13the seven times you pray in the Bible,
13:15you know, seven times a day you stop to
13:17pray.
13:18So, the hours um Psalms, canticles,
13:20biblical
13:22Yeah, the Old Testament has that that in
13:24the passage about seven times I I
13:26stopped to pray. And so, the early
13:28church imitated that in the rhythm of
13:30the monastic life. Uh and the liturgy of
13:32the hours would be kind of a monastic
13:34life for non-monks, people like, you
13:36know, you and me. Um but you use the
13:39Psalms, the canticles, the readings, the
13:41church fathers. And I was taught that
13:43prayer early on and at times, you know,
13:45I found it tiresome or difficult to do.
13:47Now, it's like um it's like water in the
13:50desert. Uh when I was a young guy, we
13:52didn't pray the rosary. The rosary was
13:54seen as kind of something your
13:55grandmother did. My generation didn't
13:57spontaneously pray it, but then I
13:59learned it later in life and that too is
14:02like a lifeline to me.
14:03What is the rosary? Well, it's this
14:05collection I have it on me. It's a
14:07collection of Hail Marys, Our Fathers,
14:09Glory Be's in a in a, you know,
14:12in a rope and you count your way through
14:14the beads and uh it's a takes about 20
14:17or 25 minutes. It's a meditative prayer.
14:19As you're praying the Hail Marys, you're
14:20meditating upon the mysteries of Jesus'
14:22life and Mary's life.
14:24Um it doesn't get you anywhere. You
14:26start here and you end up exactly where
14:28you started.
14:29So, it doesn't it's not it's not
14:31effective in that way.
14:33It's a meditative prayer. I prayed I
14:34remember I was giving a retreat to the
14:36priests of Dublin many years ago.
14:38These were mostly older men, been
14:40through the wars, you know, most of
14:42them. And uh they invited me to come.
14:44They said, "We're going to pray the
14:45rosary tonight."
14:47All these Irish guys and I was Hail
14:48Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with
14:49thee. Blessed art thou among women. Hail
14:50Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with
14:51thee. Blessed art thou among women. full
14:52of I thought, "What is going on?"
14:54But what became clear to me was Well,
14:56it's like a mantra. They they were
14:58they were producing this kind of
14:59meditative mantra. They finished it in
15:02about 7 minutes, you know, it takes
15:04usually 25. Uh but that's They don't
15:07pronounce all the sounds though in that
15:08way.
15:08No, they're kind of
15:10See, think of it the the Buddhists talk
15:12about the the calming of the monkey
15:14mind. That's the mind that's always
15:15leaping from branch to branch. It's the
15:17it's the mind that gets you through the
15:18day. I got to do this, got to do that.
15:20But to really pray, you have to calm
15:22that mind down. You have to Come on,
15:24come on. I I I can't be preoccupied with
15:25that. So, the church has often used
15:27these means to do that, to calm that
15:30mind, to open up to a deeper
15:32consciousness or a deeper awareness. And
15:35prayer is that, it seems to me.
15:38Uh Thomas Merton said uh prayer is
15:40finding the place in you
15:43where you are here and now being created
15:45by God. Which I think is a great
15:46definition of prayer. So, right now, you
15:50and I are being created by God. But
15:52we're rarely aware of that. We go
15:53through our day, you know, with the
15:54monkey mind and we're doing this and
15:56that. But at certain points, you say,
15:58"Okay, now I'm going to calm the monkey
15:59mind.
16:01I'm going to open up a deeper uh door,
16:03you know,
16:04and I'm going to commune with the God
16:06who's here and now creating me. Uh
16:08that's prayer." And then there's all
16:10kinds of disciplines around that.
16:12So, the people trying to wreck our
16:13civilization want you to be passive.
16:16They want you weak so they can control
16:19you. Weakness is their goal.
16:22No, thanks.
16:23Our friends at Beam, a proud American
16:26company, understand that our country can
16:28only be great if its people are strong.
16:31And that's why they've created a new
16:32creatine product to help listeners like
16:34you stay mentally sharp and physically
16:37fit.
16:38People like to mock creatine. CNN
16:40doesn't like creatine at all.
16:42But people buy it cuz it works.
16:45Beam's creatine can help you improve
16:46your strength, your brain health, your
16:48longevity. It's completely free of sugar
16:51and synthetic garbage that's in almost
16:53everything else that you eat.
16:55Of course, you don't hear about it too
16:56much because again, a population that is
16:59strong, clear-minded, and physically
17:01capable is a threat to tyrants.
17:05That's why they want you playing video
17:07games.
17:08To celebrate American strength, actual
17:10American strength, Beam is offering up
17:12to 30% off their best-selling creatine
17:14for the next 48 hours. Go to
17:16shopbeam.com/tucker,
17:19use the code Tucker at checkout. That's
17:21shopbeam, b e a m, dot com slash Tucker,
17:24use the code Tucker for up to 30% off.
17:26It's built on core values, integrity,
17:29results, no BS. Beam. We strongly
17:32recommend it.
17:34I think many people think of prayer as a
17:35list of requests. And and that's okay. I
17:38mean, petitionary prayer is is good. Uh
17:40John Paul II toward the end of his life,
17:42you know, he said, "I know different
17:44types of prayer, but I found the longer
17:46I live that all prayer is basically a
17:49petition." And there's something really
17:50right about that, that no matter how,
17:52you know, kind of high end and elevated
17:54your prayer is, at bottom, you're
17:56saying,
17:57you know, Lord Jesus Christ, have pity
17:59on me.
17:59Yes. Or or Lord, help me. I I find it as
18:03as I pray, that's the phrase, help me.
18:07Help me, Lord.
18:08That's fine. I have no problem with
18:09that. That's a very deep and powerful
18:11prayer.
18:11How do you keep your mind from wandering
18:12during prayer? Yeah, and read the the
18:15masters. They've recognized that
18:16forever. The desert fathers knew all
18:18about that distraction in prayer. And of
18:20course, the devil loves that, too. He
18:21loves to distract us in prayer. Um
18:25I I the best advice someone like John of
18:26the Cross, our greatest spiritual
18:27master, would be
18:29acknowledge the distraction. Don't try
18:31to fight it. Acknowledge it. And then go
18:33back.
18:34And it comes again, acknowledge it. I
18:36see you.
18:37And go back.
18:39Uh don't try to fight it or to try
18:41techniques to avoid it completely. A
18:43distraction comes, see it, and then
18:45return. Let go of it.
18:48I've noticed in the in the past few
18:49years, uh people I know who are secular
18:52or have always been, suddenly talking
18:54about the existence of evil in the
18:56world. I think it's very clear
18:59to non-religious people even that
19:01there's some kind of supernatural force
19:03of darkness like a foot in the world.
19:06I don't think you really need to make
19:06that case anymore that that's real. How
19:09do you see God in the world? Because if
19:12you spend your life, you know, Yeah.
19:14staring at evil,
19:15probably not productive.
19:16No. Well, the world is charged with the
19:18grandeur of God. That's Gerard Manley
19:20Hopkins' great poem and I think that's
19:21right. It's if you have the eyes to see
19:23and prayer
19:24disciplines that. Prayer makes that
19:26possible.
19:27The world is charged with the grandeur
19:28of God, meaning everything that exists,
19:30because being and good are convertible
19:32terms. That's something from Thomas
19:33Aquinas that I think you can Being and
19:36good are convertible are convertible
19:37terms. In other words, to be is to be
19:39good. Period. Whatever is is good. Evil
19:44is Aquinas would call it a provatio,
19:47a privation of the good. Evil is a is a
19:50a cavity, it's a lack, right? But
19:51whatever is is good. So, for example,
19:54take the devil as an example. Is the
19:56devil good? Sure, of course. In the
19:58measure the devil exists, has a mind,
20:00has a will, all that is good. What's
20:03evil about the devil is the corruption
20:05of mind and will and power, right? Um
20:08that's why like Satan in Dante of this
20:10is highest of angels,
20:13full of goodness. God doesn't make
20:15anything that's not good.
20:17But it's become corrupt, see? So, the
20:19trick there is always to focus on on the
20:22good cuz being and good are convertible
20:24terms. Whatever is is good. Think of the
20:26the mystics who talk about
20:28if you see like a little bug crawling
20:29across this table, that's an avenue
20:32toward God. Cuz if you look at this
20:34little tiny bug, let's say, but the more
20:36you look at I mean incredible complexity
20:38and richness and density of its being
20:40and
20:41uh of course it speaks to you of the
20:44creator of all things. That whose very
20:46nature is to be, right? So, all being
20:48reflects God. And if you have the eyes
20:50to see, that's what the great saints
20:52have. They just they see that all the
20:53time.
20:54We sinners tend to focus a lot on the
20:57lack, right? We focus on the cavity, not
20:59the tooth. The idea is look at the
21:01tooth. Uh always acknowledging the
21:03cavities cuz there plenty of them. But
21:06but the focus should be on being. Being
21:08good are convertible terms.
21:11I may be too shallow for Catholic
21:12theology, but I love what you're saying.
21:14Yeah, I mean that's as old as
21:15Being and good are convertible terms.
21:18they talk about the transcendental
21:19properties of being, which means
21:20wherever there is So, here's glass. It's
21:23um good, it's true, and it's beautiful.
21:25Now, why is it good? Well, because it
21:26corresponds to the will in some ways.
21:28There's you know, yeah, this glass I
21:30want to study this glass. It's
21:31interesting and and look at the the
21:33beauty of it, you know? It's true cuz it
21:35corresponds in its intelligibility to an
21:37inquiring mind. The mind wants to
21:39understand that thing. What is that
21:41thing?
21:42It's beautiful because it's radiant, you
21:44know?
21:45It uh go back to like James Joyce, the
21:48famous scene, you know, in the in the
21:49portrait of the artist when he sees the
21:50woman he eventually would would marry,
21:52Nora Barnacle, and he sees her out on
21:54the strand and he has this rapturous
21:56description of her, remember? And at the
21:58end of it, he says, "Oh, heavenly God."
22:02And and that's the way it works. It's
22:03the beautiful this particular this
22:05particular girl he sees out in the surf.
22:08But she speaks to him of God. Um so,
22:11that's why whatever is is good, it's
22:12true, and it's beautiful. Uh those are
22:14all convertible terms.
22:17It seems like the threat maybe the
22:19satanic
22:20threat is distraction. Yeah.
22:22No, I think that's absolutely right.
22:23That we focus so much on the lack. It's
22:25like you're sucking on an aching tooth,
22:27you know, you just you're focused on the
22:28on the lack. Um but see, you know, as
22:31St. Paul says, "Where sin abounds, grace
22:33abounds the more." And that's not just a
22:36a nice like Hallmark card sentiment.
22:37That's a metaphysical truth.
22:39Wherever there's sin, sure, sin
22:41everywhere. But grace is always greater.
22:44It has to be cuz sin is a is a cavity.
22:47You know what? It's in Tolkien, remember
22:48when they what are they the Nazgûl's are
22:50these these flying demons that are
22:52threatening the battlefield and all
22:54this. But then when they finally conquer
22:56them, what do they discover? They're
22:57nothing. They're a cloak that covers
22:59nothing. And it's cuz
23:02evil is a type of non-being.
23:04And so, it it puts on a big show. It
23:07puts this big cloak over itself. But
23:09what it is is just a lack, it's a
23:11cavity.
23:12Uh that's why if sin is abounding, sure,
23:14sin abounds in our world. But grace
23:17abounds the more. You know, that's the
23:19gates of hell will not prevail against
23:21her. They can't in a way. They can't.
23:23And we should have that confidence.
23:25Christians should never be cowed by
23:28evil. Like, "Oh my We acknowledge it,
23:31but the the great saints aren't cowed by
23:32evil cuz evil is a is a lack, it's a
23:35cavity, it's a Nazgûl, it's a non-being,
23:39right?
23:41Where do you see grace?
23:43Um
23:44Bob Dylan is one of my great heroes, you
23:46know? Um look around this old world and
23:48all that I'm finding is the saving grace
23:50that's over me. That's Bob Dylan after
23:52he became a Christian. Uh
23:54You know, grace is is being. Grace is
23:56what's real. Grace tout est grâce.
23:59That's a a line from Bernanos, the great
24:01French Catholic novelist. Tout est
24:03grâce, everything's grace. Everything's
24:05grace. Because of that principle,
24:07whatever is
24:08Yes.
24:08is good. Whatever is is true and
24:10beautiful. Whatever is reflects the one
24:13whose name is to be, right? When Moses
24:16asked God, "What's your name?" and God
24:17says, "I am who I am." Right? Well, our
24:19tradition reads that as I'm I'm not
24:22contingent even as in being. I'm the one
24:24who's very nature is to be. So,
24:26therefore, whatever is is reflective of
24:28of God.
24:29That's where you find grace, I think.
24:31So, if you could distract people
24:34sufficient that they
24:35never had the time
24:37or the inclination to notice
24:40things that are real,
24:42you would trap them in a kind of hell.
24:43Yeah.
24:44Yes, but see, but that's exactly what
24:46happens, isn't it? Do now
24:47psychodynamically is when we focus on
24:50all this kind of lack and anxiety and
24:52frustration within us, it is a kind of
24:54preoccupation with what's not real.
24:56That's true. Now,
24:57I'm not denying the psychological
24:59reality of suffering. But but
25:02metaphysically speaking,
25:04evil is a type of non-being. And if I'm
25:06focused on that, then I'm going to get
25:08myself in in knots.
25:09I was thinking more of the iPhone, which
25:11when I use it cuts me off completely
25:14from other people and from the world
25:16around me, from nature, from myself.
25:18Yes. No, and I believe me, I mean, we're
25:21all addicted to it. Those machines were
25:22designed to be addictive. They worked.
25:24Uh
25:25during Lent, this past Lent, I did a a
25:27resolution for the first time that one
25:29day a week I put the phone away. And I
25:31did it and it was a little bit of a
25:33struggle, but not terrible and I thought
25:34that's that's a good thing.
25:36When we bring our guys now into
25:37priesthood studies,
25:39we have what's called the propaedeutic
25:40year, this year of kind of preparation
25:42before the formal study begins.
25:45And the thing that all the guys say they
25:47like best about it is they take their
25:49cell phones away for the entire year. I
25:51think once a week you can check it for
25:53emergencies or something or someone's
25:54got access to it in case of emergency.
25:57But they take the phones away from the
25:58guys. Great move.
26:00And what happens to them?
26:01What happens? They they all feel
26:02liberated. They all come back saying it
26:04was the best year of my life and I read
26:06books again and I talked to people. Um I
26:09I cultivated friendship. I played games.
26:11I played sports, you know? I mean, and
26:14it's exactly this principle. I wasn't
26:16Look at that's almost a a
26:18illustration of Augustine's curvatus in
26:20se that I'm caved in over my iPhone,
26:23right?
26:24That's what it looks like.
26:27Do you think that that's driving some of
26:28the disassociation and agony that
26:31we see around us?
26:32Yeah, it's not helping at all. I
26:34Um Jean Twenge is a psychologist from
26:37San Diego that I read a lot and she has
26:39a book called iGen about the generation
26:41that came of age totally with the
26:42iPhones and iPads and stuff.
26:45And she said there's a direct
26:46correlation between screen time and
26:48depression, which I find perfectly
26:51Uh Leonard Sax, you know, the great
26:52psychologist, also a physician dealing
26:54with young people now for decades, same
26:57thing. He says the the correlation
26:58between screen time. And look how
27:01unhealthy it's making our our young
27:03kids. Uh when I was a little kid, we
27:05were all skinny. We all were, all my
27:07friends uh and I cuz we were outside
27:09from 8:00 in the morning till 8:00 at
27:11night in the summertime. Playing games,
27:13running around, shooting hoops, on a
27:15bike, you know? And way too many kids
27:18now are hunched over their iPhones and
27:20uh
27:21and then it invites you into such a
27:23world of uh
27:25of meanness and competition and uh look
27:29at my picture's better than yours and
27:30those people that seem so much happier
27:32than I am and
27:33No, I think taking those things out of
27:35the hands of our kids would be a great
27:37idea, at least to some degree.
27:39How do you force yourself to notice
27:41things beyond yourself? Like, what is
27:42your actual discipline? Like, you wake
27:44up, how do you keep God ever present in
27:47mind and yourself at bay? Well, my first
27:49move is the holy hour. So, I learned
27:51that from Fulton Sheen. Taught
27:54now a couple generations to do every day
27:57an hour of uninterrupted prayer in the
28:00presence of the Blessed Sacrament. So,
28:01as a Catholic, I I have the Blessed
28:02Sacrament in my house.
28:04So, first thing I do in the morning, I
28:05get a cup of coffee and I go up to my
28:07chapel.
28:08And I will sit in front of the Blessed
28:10Sacrament for an hour. And I'll pray my
28:12office as part of it. Often pray the
28:14rosary or other things. Pardon again my
28:16ignorance. What's your office?
28:19You pray your office? It's the liturgy
28:20of the hours. Yeah, what I was
28:21describing earlier. So, that that uh
28:24psalms and canticles and readings that
28:26that apply
28:26read them as you pray them? Yeah, so I
28:28have the book and I'll I'll read the
28:30psalm and usually then spend some time
28:31meditating
28:33um and then do the next one, you know?
28:34And then I might let's say between the
28:36office of readings, which has to do with
28:39the church fathers, I read something
28:40from the church fathers and usually from
28:42the Bible.
28:43Maybe between that and morning prayer
28:45I'll do the rosary. Um
28:47or then I might do another form of
28:49prayer between morning prayer and midday
28:51prayer. So,
28:52I'll I'll work my way through the
28:54office, the liturgy of the hours. But my
28:55main task is to sit
28:59in the presence of the Blessed
29:00Sacrament. And one of the great lines,
29:01this goes back to
29:02And what time is this in the morning?
29:04I wake up about 5:30. So, like between
29:065:30 and 6:30.
29:07Do you text like 11 people first before
29:09you do this?
29:09No, no, no, no. And I leave I leave the
29:11phone in my bedroom. So, I always leave
29:13the phone while I'm praying. I don't
29:14have that. Cuz that's immediate
29:16distraction and that's the last thing
29:17you want when you're trying to pray in a
29:19consecrated way.
29:20Yes. And then, you know, some of that
29:21too is petitionary prayer.
29:23Um yeah, I'm a bishop, so people are
29:25always, you know, "Hey, Bishop, would
29:26you pray for me? Uh my son's having a
29:28hard time." And so, I try to conjure as
29:31best I can the memory of these various
29:33people that asked me to pray for them.
29:35Uh I'll pray for my, you know, parents
29:37and family members who've died and, you
29:39know, so
29:40it's just giving yourself the leisure.
29:42You have a full hour where you can bring
29:44all this before the Lord.
29:46When you pray for someone who's died,
29:47what do you pray?
29:49I pray they might find peace and rest.
29:52Um,
29:53I pray the Lord might be might be kind
29:55and good to them, you know. Um, I pray
29:57all the time for people who've died
29:58because it you know, you're just you're
29:59aware of it when you're in pastoral
30:01ministry.
30:01Yes. You know. Um,
30:04some people who've died, you know,
30:05they're not formally canonized by the
30:06church, but I kind of in an informal way
30:08I think of them as being already in the
30:10presence of God and I'll pray for their
30:11intercession. Um, Cardinal George of
30:14Chicago was a great mentor to me and I
30:16I'm often
30:17linked to him in prayer.
30:20Meaning you prayed for him? Pray for
30:22him, but also you know, I pray to him.
30:25And not with the complete confidence I
30:26would pray to a saint canonized by the
30:28church, but with a a kind of you know,
30:30practical confidence and I I knew him
30:32very well and
30:33I asked for his help.
30:35When you pray, do you hear back?
30:37Not in in the you know, physical sense,
30:40but yeah, you get I'd say a sense.
30:44You have a sense of connection. I'll put
30:46it that way. Um, sometimes in prayer you
30:48get a very intense feeling. The Irish
30:51talk about thin places, you know, where
30:54the veil between this world and next
30:56becomes very thin.
30:57There I find there are kind of thin
30:58moments like that where there's a a
31:00moment when you feel the other world
31:03impinging on yours.
31:05What kind of feeling is that? Uh, peace
31:08I would say, you know. Um,
31:11harmony. That the the disharmony, the
31:13difficulty of this life kind of resolve
31:16into a higher harmony, something like
31:18that.
31:18Um,
31:20see I you know, what's interesting to me
31:21Tucker is
31:22uh, the world that we're in. Look around
31:25at this you know, interesting beautiful
31:26place right now and uh,
31:29good in the world of nature. Driving up
31:30here seeing the nature around me.
31:33Beautiful. Beautiful. Feel like
31:35is that it? Is that it?
31:38To me it seems so unlikely
31:41that the world that the sensorium of
31:44these advanced apes can take in is all
31:46there is to reality. What my little eyes
31:49can see, you know, they see a narrow
31:51range of the color spectrum and
31:54that's it? I think that's so wildly
31:56unlikely.
31:58Just the the fecundity and and
32:01and variety of being that we experience
32:03through through our senses.
32:05I think beyond our senses there there's
32:08a world of even more extraordinary
32:10fecundity and richness and I think there
32:13are times when we
32:15sense it. We get in touch with it. Um,
32:18look, Plato knew that. Plato knew he
32:21talked about stepping out of the cave,
32:22right? And the first step out of the
32:24cave, the cave is where you flickering
32:26shadows on the wall. It means the world
32:27of our ordinary experience. I'm here
32:29with you right now and in a few hours
32:31I'll be gone somewhere else and other
32:32images will be flickering past my
32:34sensorium. Okay, that's this what this
32:36life is like.
32:38But Plato thought the first step out of
32:39the cave was mathematics. It's a very
32:41interesting cuz when you you understand
32:442 + 3 = 5,
32:46that's you've stepped out of this world
32:48in a very real way. I can see a whole
32:51here two things, but when you grasp the
32:54the principle 2 + 3 = 5, you're not in
32:57the world of ordinary experience
32:58anymore. You're in a world now
33:01of eternity,
33:02of immateriality, a world that doesn't
33:05change, that can't change even in
33:06principle. Well, there's nothing like
33:08that in this world. Well, Plato knew
33:10that.
33:10When you grasp the quadratic equation or
33:13something,
33:14you're not dealing with a physical
33:16reality that has color or shape or size
33:18or nothing that's that's even essent or
33:21mutable. You've reached a higher plane
33:23of existence. Even mathematics
33:25does that to us.
33:26A fortiori now philosophy and then even
33:30more so religion are opening you to
33:32higher and higher expressions of
33:34reality.
33:35Here's a fact of life you may not learn
33:37till you're older, but I'm going to tell
33:38you now. It's very hard to have a good
33:40time if you're wearing bad boots. In
33:42fact, it may be impossible and that's
33:44why you need Tecovas.
33:45As a matter of fact, you don't just need
33:46them, you owe them to yourself. Tecovas
33:49makes western boots for everybody.
33:51Ranchers, real ranchers, life long
33:53cowboys, first time boot buyers and
33:55anyone in between. Every Tecovas boot is
33:58handcrafted, made by hand with over 200
34:01meticulous steps
34:03for a broken in feel right out of the
34:05box. You don't have to compromise
34:06between looks and quality. You can have
34:08them both. Whether it's a long day or a
34:11big night, Tecovas are built to last and
34:13impressed. You wouldn't believe the
34:15compliments people here get when they
34:16wear them out, which they do.
34:18Right now get 10% off at
34:20tecovas.com/tucker when you sign up for
34:22email and text alerts. That's 10% off at
34:24Tecovas, t e c o v a s dot com slash
34:28tucker.
34:30I don't think you're fully on board with
34:31Darwinism. I'm getting that sense.
34:33Uh,
34:35well, there are a couple ways to look at
34:36that. I mean, there's a big debate going
34:38on right now in in the world of
34:41evolutionary biologists about Darwin and
34:43neo-Darwinism and questions raised about
34:45it. Uh, I mean, in a way I'm happy to
34:48leave that debate to them. I mean,
34:49because that's talking about how do life
34:51forms develop over time and given
34:54genetic variation and and
34:57natural selection. Okay, fine. I'll let
35:00the experts debate that.
35:01Yes. Um, that in itself is not really a
35:04theologically relevant concern. I'll
35:06leave that to them. I agree. But see,
35:08here's the thing. Creation in the
35:11theological sense has little to do with
35:13that. That's all about development of
35:15biological forms. Okay. Creation is
35:18something much more dramatic.
35:21Creation names
35:23the relationship that obtains between
35:25unconditioned being and conditioned
35:27being. Or to put that in more regular
35:30language, between God and the world.
35:32So I mean, like right now here you and I
35:34are sitting here at this table in this
35:36room is entirely conditioned form of
35:39existence. By which I mean it is, but it
35:42doesn't have to be.
35:44I could have just the right up here
35:45today. You could have gotten sick. This
35:47thing could have fallen on the table.
35:50It could be a thousand degrees and we'd
35:52be incinerated. It could be a thousand
35:53degrees below zero and we'd be frozen.
35:55Like there there are a million things
35:56that make this
35:58set of affairs real.
36:01But it doesn't have to be. It doesn't
36:03have to be the case.
36:05So how do you explain that? Well, you
36:07can't appeal endlessly to other
36:10contingent things.
36:12You have to come finally to some reality
36:15whose very nature is to be.
36:18That's not contingent, not finite, not
36:20even essent, not dependent,
36:22but whose very nature is to be. I am.
36:25Like right, then go back to Moses.
36:26What's your name? See, Moses was asking
36:28a very sensible question for this
36:31worldly perspective. So, hey, what kind
36:33of glass is that, you know? How tall is
36:35that glass? What kind of table is this?
36:37That's a nice table. What kind of table
36:38is it?
36:39So you're a God obviously, you know, you
36:41seem to know a lot about me and and
36:42you're So which one are you? You're the
36:44God of the mountain, you're the God of
36:45the plains, are you the God of these
36:46people? Who are you? Which one are you?
36:48What's your name?
36:49And so when God says
36:51uh, I am who I am. He's saying
36:54dumb question. That is not the right
36:55question to ask here cuz I'm not a
36:58conditioned state of affairs. I'm not a
37:00being among many.
37:02My name
37:03is I am. I am who I am. Right? My nature
37:08is to be. Now we're talking about the
37:10creator. See, the creator is the one who
37:14is here and now undergirding all the
37:17finite reality. Who's right now, this is
37:20a great line from Herbert McCabe the
37:22theologian. He's singing the world into
37:24being the way an opera singer sustains a
37:27song. God, the ground of being, is
37:31singing this finite world into being.
37:34That's creation, see? So now within
37:37creation, I can talk all day about the
37:39Darwinists and how this the life form
37:41developed into that life form and I'll
37:43let them debate that. But the religious
37:45question remains no matter what you say
37:47about that. The religious question is
37:48about why is there something rather than
37:50nothing?
37:51Right, exactly.
37:52Why should there be a finite conditioned
37:54world at all? You can't explain it by
37:57appealing endlessly to other forms of
37:59conditioned existence. You can't. That's
38:01the mistake of materialism. That's it.
38:03questions end at a certain point and
38:04there's an answer. So the question is,
38:06well, who created
38:08the creator? And the answer is nobody.
38:10The creator is
38:11Right. Right. And if you ask that
38:12question, it means you haven't grasped
38:14the solution. If you say, "Who created
38:15the creator?" Well, then you haven't
38:16grasped. No, the argument leads toward
38:19something
38:20that doesn't need to be created, that
38:21can't be created, whose very nature is
38:24to be and who therefore is eternal, we'd
38:26say, outside of time, immaterial,
38:29outside of space, right? So all the
38:31finite things that or the
38:32characteristics of finite reality can't
38:35apply to that
38:36that reality. That's why we say God's
38:39eternal or why he is immaterial and so
38:41on, immutable.
38:42That means nothing that characterizes
38:44finite things should characterize him.
38:48What do you think of the new atheists? I
38:50don't like them.
38:53No, look, I I
38:54my ministry of Word on Fire emerged
38:56around that time. So right around the
38:58year 2000. The new atheists emerged
39:00after September 11th, which is not
39:02surprising because
39:03September 11th um,
39:05stirred to life again this old kind of
39:08enlightenment um,
39:10idea. Religion is irrational, therefore
39:13it's violent.
39:15Because they can't settle things through
39:16argument, they have to settle them
39:17through bombs and guns and
39:19war, right?
39:20So that's an old argument goes back to
39:21the 17th century.
39:23It was revived massively after September
39:2611th. The new atheists I think rode that
39:28wave in a big way. Now, they were gifted
39:31rhetoricians, especially Hitchens,
39:33right? I admire Hitchens. I read
39:35Hitchens always with great pleasure.
39:38Uh, Dawkins less so. Sam Harris I think
39:40has you know, rhetorical gifts.
39:42But their arguments
39:44there's nothing new about them. They
39:46were old hat. They're borrowed from Marx
39:48and from Freud and from Feuerbach
39:50especially. Um so nothing new at the
39:53intellectual level. They were new in
39:54their nastiness.
39:56So like the classical atheist, think
39:58Feuerbach, Marx, Freud, you got the
40:01sense they knew they were dealing with a
40:03formidable opponent when they were
40:04fighting religion. The new atheist, it
40:06was like they were dealing with an idiot
40:07child, you know. And so that's what was
40:10so annoying about them, I thought. And
40:12their arguments were pretty bad. And
40:14they were, you know, so aggressive
40:16toward religion. Um
40:18they did a great service though. I'll
40:20say this. They awakened the Christian
40:22churches in many ways.
40:23The the apologetic weapons that we threw
40:26away 40 years ago, we were compelled to
40:29pick up again.
40:31So a lot of us got into the game to kind
40:33of battle the new atheist and to draw
40:35upon the very rich intellectual
40:38tradition, especially of Catholicism. So
40:40in that way they did a service to us,
40:42you know.
40:43And um
40:44also I wrote a paper on this one. I
40:45called it the Thomas Aquinas and why the
40:47new atheist are right.
40:49Because the new atheist, they make this
40:51mistake we were just talking about. They
40:53they will construe God as some kind of
40:56big being.
40:57And um okay, is there this big being or
41:00not? Some say there is, some say there
41:01isn't. So it's like Bigfoot, you know,
41:03some say there is a Bigfoot, others say
41:05there isn't a Bigfoot. Let's go look
41:06around for evidence and find out. Well,
41:09you'll never find I think God that way.
41:11God isn't a being. God isn't isn't a
41:13thing in the world, right? He's the
41:16reason why there's a world at all.
41:17Therefore you're not going to find him
41:19in the world. Therefore you can't say
41:21things like, oh there's no there's no
41:22evidence for God as though he's like a
41:24he's a
41:26chemical reaction or something.
41:27Yeah. Right, he's not like that.
41:29Uh you have to ask a whole different set
41:31of questions. And that's what the new
41:33atheist did. And and Like like what?
41:36What were the questions?
41:37Like why is there something rather than
41:38nothing? Like why should contingent
41:40being exist at all? Uh how do you
41:42explain the two be of something whose
41:45nature is not to be, namely you and me
41:48and everything around us. I am for sure,
41:50but my nature is not to be. I could
41:52think myself out of being in a second.
41:54There's nothing necessary about me.
41:57Well, how do you explain that? How do
41:58you explain that? Then you say, oh it's
42:00all matter and energy.
42:02It will never work. Why? Cuz matter is
42:04always matter under these conditions,
42:07matter in this size, matter at this
42:08energy, matter at this speed, matter at
42:10this color. How did it get there? Why is
42:13it this rather than that? See? See you
42:15you can't answer that question, the
42:17really cool interesting question, by
42:19appealing to something within the
42:20contingent world. You have to go outside
42:22the contingent world.
42:25And again, don't think of that
42:26spatially. So the minute you go, oh
42:28yeah, God must be that up out there
42:29someplace. No, you've made him a big
42:31being. You have to go outside in the
42:34metaphysical sense
42:35to a reality which indeed contains all
42:38of that but is in no way contained by
42:41it.
42:41Now we're talking.
42:43And that to me is is the really
42:44interesting question.
42:47Would also suggest that that God's like
42:49right here, right now, and always.
42:52he is. And here's the interesting thing,
42:53and all the mystics and theologians are
42:55onto this. So
42:57is God in this room? No, absolutely not,
43:00because this room is just full of
43:02contingent things like you and me and
43:03the shelves and the books and No, no,
43:05God God's nothing in this I can't point
43:07to, oh there he is.
43:08God's in this room. God's nowhere in
43:10this room.
43:12Is God in this room? Yes, he's
43:14everywhere in this room, because this
43:16room wouldn't exist unless God were
43:18singing it into being. And so God is at
43:22the same time as transcendent as you can
43:25imagine, not a thing in the world, and
43:28as imminent as you can imagine. It was
43:30the great Augustine who said, God is at
43:32the same time
43:34superior summo meo et interior intimo
43:38meo, which means he's higher than
43:41anything I could imagine, and he's
43:43closer to me than I am to myself.
43:46Now figure that one out. Now now you
43:48understand the God whose nature is to
43:49be. He's transcendent, I can't grasp
43:52him,
43:53and he's so imminent I can't hide from
43:55him. See? And that's the space opened up
43:58by the Bible, I think. Uh so what's the
44:01solution, you might ask? The solution is
44:04fall in love with God. Falling in love
44:06is not grasping, it's not hiding from.
44:08And
44:09can we read the Bible as God trying to
44:11draw his people into that space? I I
44:14want you to fall in love with me. I
44:15don't want you grasping at me, that's
44:17idolatry. I don't want you hiding from
44:19me, that's secularism.
44:22I want you falling in love with me. And
44:24that's the right reaction to the God
44:25You're defining secularism as hiding
44:27from God? Yeah, as an ideology. If you
44:30were to say, all that there is is the
44:31secular world, right? As a materialism
44:33or imminentism or scientism in the
44:36political sense, secularism, meaning all
44:38that there is is the world that I can
44:39see and measure and so on.
44:41Uh that's hiding from God. That's
44:42saying, bye, I'm not going to worry
44:43about God. God doesn't impinge upon me.
44:46Um that's the buffered self. Charles
44:48Taylor, the philosopher, calls it that.
44:50I'm I'm buffered from any contact with
44:52the transcendent. That's an attempt to
44:54hide from God.
44:55Doesn't work. And see, what I think
44:57Tucker is really interesting is the fact
44:58that religion is experiencing a revival
45:01even as we speak.
45:02You you feel that?
45:03Oh yeah, I can I can measure it. I mean
45:05it's been measured statistically.
45:07Um
45:08because you can't hide from God all day.
45:11And and you can't grasp him. That's
45:12idolatry. Idolatry is something to
45:13manipulate God. And the Bible knows all
45:16about that from page one. Page one, the
45:19Bible knows about manipulating God. Uh
45:21that's
45:21What's the Tell me what you mean by
45:23that, manipulate? That's the original
45:24sin. It's to say, um I'm not going to
45:26obey God's law. I'm going to make I'm my
45:27own law. I'm going to grasp the tree of
45:29the knowledge of good and evil. Is is
45:30I'm going to make my my own freedom, as
45:33we were saying a few minutes ago, my own
45:34freedom becomes my God. That's a type of
45:37idolatry. Uh or I turn
45:39pleasure, money, sex, power into my
45:42supreme good. That's idolatry.
45:45Um to me the great biblical story there
45:47is the um
45:48Elijah and the priests of Baal. Remember
45:50in the first book of Kings.
45:52So Elijah is the one left. I only one
45:55priest of Yahweh, but there's all these
45:56priests of Baal. By the way, so it
45:58always goes, right? There's always a lot
46:01of avatars of the false gods. They're
46:02all over the place. They're thick on the
46:04ground. They're all over.
46:06And now let's you erect altars to your
46:07God, I'll I'll erect one to mine, and
46:09let's see who responds, right? So the
46:11priests of Baal
46:13erect the altars and then they start
46:14begging and they cajoling and pleading
46:17and and they're they're frustrated cuz
46:19God's not answering. Their gods aren't
46:20sending fire. And Elijah mocks them,
46:23which I think is a great part of that
46:24story. He publicly mocks them, you know.
46:26Oh no, maybe your gods are napping or
46:28maybe they're in the bathroom. I don't
46:29know where they are, right?
46:32And then they finally end up it's a
46:33beautiful detail. They end up slashing
46:35themselves with knives. They're trying
46:37to they're trying to get the gods to
46:39respond. It's beautiful image of what
46:41happens to us in idolatry. We end up
46:43harming ourselves, right? In a frenzied
46:46attempt to get gods to answer who can
46:48never in principle answer. Now think of
46:50someone addicted to power, sex, money,
46:54uh pleasure, whatever it is. And I'm
46:55begging, begging, begging, you you will
46:57satisfy me. They it won't cuz it can't.
47:00And I'll end up harming myself.
47:02Then Elijah calls upon the true God. The
47:05fire comes, destroys, you know, takes
47:07the sacrifice.
47:08Uh it's not just a jingoistic story.
47:11It's a very powerful story that the true
47:13God is the only one that can satisfy the
47:16longing of the heart, right? And so
47:18idolatry will always lead us down this
47:21self-destructive path.
47:24And the worship of the true God is
47:26what's going to lead us to uh
47:28the fire falling on us. A lot of the
47:29news you read doesn't really have a lot
47:32of inherent meaning, but this does.
47:35Starting May 19th, the Hallow app is
47:38leading a consecration to Jesus through
47:40St. Joseph. You might be asking, why St.
47:42Joseph? Why now? Well, consider this.
47:45Joseph was the man God himself trusted
47:47with his own son. He wasn't a king or a
47:49warrior, he was a carpenter. He was a
47:51quiet and steady man of unshakable
47:54faith.
47:55In an age that mocks humility, can you
47:57imagine the basis of wisdom and
47:59relationship with God? It's time we
48:01looked to someone who embodied humility,
48:04not for applause,
48:05but for God. The series is not just
48:07about St. Joseph, it's about what
48:08happens when you follow his example,
48:10when you trade noise for silence, when
48:12you stop chasing relevance, and start
48:15seeking holiness. And all of that begins
48:17with humility, which is really just
48:18perspective. You are not God. It's
48:20important to remind yourself of that. We
48:22do every day.
48:23So every week on Hallow, you'll hear
48:25reflections grounded in the Gospels,
48:26pray powerful prayers like the Litany of
48:28St. Joseph, and hear glory stories from
48:31throughout church history. Not myths,
48:32not legends, actual intersections
48:35and power from a saint who's been
48:36quietly helping people for thousands of
48:39years. Hallow is the world's number one
48:41prayer app, and experiences like this
48:43are why my family and I cannot get
48:45enough of it. It is a constant dinner
48:47table conversation. So get 3 months
48:49right now at hallow.com/tucker
48:51for free. You'll be glad you did.
48:53hallow.com/tucker.
48:55What Why does the does God require
48:57sacrifice? He doesn't require it. And
48:59that's a that's a super important point.
49:02Um the Bible and the great tradition
49:03make it over and over again.
49:05How could the one who made the entire
49:07universe from nothing possibly need
49:10anything from it? Right? It it's just a
49:12logical contradiction to say like the
49:15the ancient gods of Greece, sure they
49:17need all kinds of stuff. Remember that
49:19scene? It's in um
49:21uh the Odyssey, I think, you know, where
49:23um as the sacrifices are being made and
49:25the gods are like desperately lapping up
49:29the blood of the sacrifice cuz they they
49:31need our, you know, our loyalty and so
49:34on.
49:34The Bible, In
49:36um 50. You think I need Do you think I
49:39drink the blood of goats? Are you
49:41joking? All the animals of the field,
49:43they all belong to me. So, but that's a
49:45very important point because
49:47it's not that we're playing some game of
49:49of like codependency with God.
49:52God needs nothing. That's the best news
49:54ever. God needs nothing from us.
49:56What he wants is
49:59the openness of heart signaled by the
50:02sacrifice because he wants us to be
50:04alive. And And when we say, "Lord, I'm
50:07I'm opening my heart to you. I'm
50:10ordering my life to you in this great
50:12sacrifice of praise." God delights
50:16because now we're going to find the joy
50:18he wants us to have.
50:20That That's St. Irenaeus, my great
50:22intellectual hero. The glory of God is a
50:24human being fully alive. See,
50:27the glory of God is not putting us down
50:29and
50:30boy, they finally got around to honoring
50:32me sufficiently. So, that's old
50:34paganism. But it it haunts the Christian
50:36mind still. It haunts our minds. But the
50:39Bible is always trying to to
50:42dismiss that demon. God wants our
50:45sacrifice because it's good for us.
50:47God gets nothing out of it.
50:49Think of it
50:50like it bounces off of the rock of the
50:53divine self-sufficiency
50:55and comes back to our benefit. So, when
50:58I when I pray to God or I offer the
51:00sacrifice of the mass to God,
51:02I'm not giving God anything he needs.
51:04God needs nothing. But it bounces off of
51:07that self-sufficiency to me. It redounds
51:09to my benefit.
51:11So, you know, go to into the Catholic
51:13mass.
51:14We offer the sacrifice of Jesus to the
51:17Father. We represent the sacrifice of
51:19the cross to the Father. Oh, cuz the
51:21Father needs it? The Father needs
51:22nothing.
51:23But it bounces off of the Father's
51:25self-sufficiency and comes back as food
51:28for us. So, now we eat we eat the body
51:31and drink the blood of Jesus. We We
51:33consume the sacrifice. It's for our
51:34benefit, not for God's.
51:37But your question is really a good one
51:39cuz it leads us into that very important
51:41spiritual space.
51:44One of the reasons I think Christianity
51:46is true is because so many people hate
51:47it. Yeah. And
51:50Jesus is really the great dividing
51:53the great divider. Yeah.
51:55And
51:56like why would you be mad at Jesus or
51:58Christianity when it's like a nonviolent
52:01religion that teaches people to love
52:02each other? If you're mad at that, it
52:05says something about how real it is, I
52:07think. I agree. Both Billy Graham and
52:10Fulton Sheen, I mean, argued with the
52:12two greatest evangelists of the 20th
52:13century,
52:14said the same thing, which was the
52:16objection to God is rarely truly
52:18intellectual. It's a moral objection.
52:20Totally. So, we
52:22the moral demand of God becomes too
52:24great.
52:26See, Jesus
52:27if he's one spiritual figure among many,
52:29he's a great teacher, you know, like the
52:31Buddha, he's like Muhammad, he's like
52:33Confucius. Well, then I could kind of
52:35handle him. You know, I can put him in a
52:36corner and say, "Okay, that's
52:37interesting. I'll abide by some of that
52:39and I also like what the Sufi mystics
52:41say and I also like what Moses says
52:43here." But see, Jesus, C.S. Lewis saw so
52:47perfectly, you know, is
52:49qualitatively different than that and
52:51that's why he's a problem because if he
52:54is who he says he is, not just one
52:56teacher that I can listen to, but he's
52:59God from God, light from light, true God
53:01from true God, begotten, not made,
53:03consubstantial with the Father. As we
53:05say every week in the creed,
53:07all things were made.
53:08Yeah. If that's who he is, Well, that's
53:10game's over. But why does it make people
53:12mad? I mean, one of the late life
53:15revelations
53:16in my life has been that the these great
53:18spasms of violence, these revolutions
53:20that we study, French Revolution,
53:22Spanish Civil War, Bolshevik Revolution
53:241917, huge parts of World War II,
53:27were anti-Christian.
53:28Absolutely.
53:30But it's not recorded that way. Yeah,
53:32but that's that's true. Yeah, but see,
53:34Jesus, he's a problem because of who he
53:37says he is, but also we're sinners. And
53:39so, sinners don't want to get out of
53:41their sinful patterns. It They're We're
53:43way too comfortable. It's like the
53:45Israelites that want to go back to
53:46Egypt, right? They're They're on their
53:47way to liberation, but oh boy, did we
53:50love the you know, the the flesh pots of
53:52Egypt. At least we had cucumbers and
53:55right?
53:55That's my favorite part.
53:56Right. But that See, that's the story of
53:58every sinner is
53:59Every sin is a type of addiction. You're
54:02addicted to you know, that's the piece
54:04of bowel. And so, as I'm trying to move
54:06toward conversion, I'm I'm moving across
54:07the painful desert, right? On the way to
54:10the promised land, I'm always hankering
54:12for Egypt. And so, Jesus is a constant
54:15reproach, a constant challenge, a
54:17constant no, no, you know? So, of course
54:19I'm I'm going to I'm going to resist
54:20him. Look at You know, the very fact I
54:23think this is very interesting. Um
54:25Muhammad dies in his in his bed full of
54:27years. The Buddha dies in his bed full
54:29of years surrounded by his disciples.
54:31Confucius, the same thing. Moses dies at
54:33the age of 120 or something, you know?
54:36And then there's Jesus who dies 30 years
54:39old, naked, pinned to a desperate
54:43instrument of torture. His His disciples
54:46having abandoned him, his enemies
54:48mocking him. That's how he dies. Now,
54:51what does it tell you? It tells you
54:52there's something about him
54:54Well, who would write that? By the way,
54:55if I'm
54:56I'm trying to create a new religion,
54:58he's not the hero I'm creating
55:00No. No, but it's a sign He's a sign of
55:02contradiction. He He's the one that that
55:04That's the way the world is going to
55:06react to him. Now, what's the good news?
55:08The good news is having endured all of
55:10that, he returns. And I always think
55:13this,
55:14you know, if if we were Hollywood
55:16telling the story, you never You never
55:17heard that Jesus right but where is this
55:19guy with this horrible thing and these
55:20people betrayed him and denied him and
55:22they crucified him and
55:23now he's back. He'd be back with a
55:26machine gun. I'm back for vengeance.
55:28He's back with shalom, a word of peace.
55:32As the way I put it in Christianity is
55:34this, we killed God and God returned in
55:37forgiving love. And that's why
55:40as Paul said, right? I'm certain neither
55:43death nor life nor angels nor
55:45principalities nor height nor depth nor
55:47anything else could ever separate us
55:49from the love of God. How does Paul know
55:51that? Because because we killed God and
55:55God returned in forgiving love. That's
55:57salvation. That's That's the word of
55:59grace, if you want. That's the good
56:00news. That's what they went careering
56:03around the world to their deaths
56:04proclaiming was that. You know, Paul, I
56:06preach one thing, Christ and him
56:08crucified. Because that's the message is
56:11we killed him, God raised him up and he
56:14returned in forgiving love, you know?
56:16That's the That's the good news.
56:19Do you think that
56:21Christian persecution is on the rise?
56:23Oh, I know it is. It's It's documented.
56:2620th century was the worst century for
56:28Christian martyrs of all the of
56:30Christian history, all the previous
56:31centuries combined. There were more
56:33martyrs in the 20th century than any
56:34other time. We think of all the early
56:36church, they were all being persecuted.
56:38Far greater in the 20th century. Now,
56:39around the world, we are by far the most
56:42persecuted religion, absolutely. And
56:44it's a It's a crime. It's an outrage.
56:46And we talk about in a kind of demure
56:48way about religious liberty in our
56:49country, which is indeed under threat.
56:52But you want the real threat to
56:53religious liberty? It's in different
56:54parts of the world. People are being
56:56killed for their Christian faith.
56:57So, why is that fact suppressed? That is
57:00intentionally suppressed. Again, I was
57:03like 45 before I realized the Bolshevik
57:04Revolution was aimed at Christians. I
57:06don't know why I didn't get that, but I
57:07didn't.
57:08Yeah, I
57:09I have to ask the uh
57:11you know, the keepers of the flame
57:12culturally, but
57:14it it's simply the case today. I mean,
57:16it's it's the most persecuted religion.
57:18Um You know, I We look at things from
57:20different angles, I suppose. One
57:22tragedy, let's say of the 20th century,
57:24if you have World War I and World War
57:27II,
57:28yes, there's there there anti-Christian
57:29elements, to be sure. I mean, Hitler's
57:31deeply anti-Christian.
57:32But you also had
57:34French Christians killing German
57:36Christians killing Canadian Christians
57:38killing American Christians killing
57:40Russian Christians. It said it was this
57:42massive Christian slaughter bench. And
57:46my pet theory is when you go to Europe
57:48today, especially parts of Europe, and
57:50you see a a kind of spiritual wasteland,
57:54um I think that's a big part of that is
57:57We're just recovering from this this
57:59horrific outbreak
58:02of Christian on Christian violence.
58:05Um the gospel? Did that get into
58:07anybody's mind and heart in the 20th
58:09century that allowed this orgy of
58:12violence to take place? What Where do
58:14you What do you think that was? Why the
58:1520th century? Well, you could do a So
58:18much darker than anything that happened
58:19in the Dark Ages.
58:20You could do the Leo the 13th, you know,
58:22who gave us the St. Michael prayer and
58:24who supposedly had a
58:27intuition or a
58:28sense that the 20th century would belong
58:30to the devil. And
58:32to my mind, it's kind of hard to argue
58:33with that.
58:34If you believe in the devil, as I do,
58:37and you see what happened in the 20th
58:39century, it's kind of hard to imagine it
58:41wasn't to some degree. Well, nuclear
58:42weapons are proof as far as I can
58:44Yeah, I know. I mean, the the mass
58:46destruction, mass death of the 20th
58:48century.
58:49It's hard to blame that simply on
58:51political reality, you know? Totally.
58:53Wait, I'm sorry. I interrupted you. I'm
58:54so
58:55No, no, but you said Leo Pope Leo the
58:5713th?
58:58Yeah. Had of Can you explain what you
59:00mean he had the sense?
59:01a mystical experience
59:03of the devil would would have a unique
59:06control over the 20th century. And so,
59:08he formulates the famous St. Michael
59:10prayer that we still pray in many
59:11churches
59:12asking for the protection of Michael the
59:14Archangel.
59:14When When did he have this experience?
59:16Toward the end of his life. So, I want
59:18to He died 1903. So, it would have been
59:20like around 1900, I would say, or late
59:2119th century.
59:23And many would say, "Well, it was borne
59:26out by the 20th century." I would Like,
59:28you know, for me in my own lifetime, it
59:31See, when I was a young guy going
59:32through school,
59:33we were still very much formed by more
59:35liberal Catholic Catholic view.
59:37The devil, literary device, literally a
59:40symbol, you know, for evil.
59:42Don't take it literally. It's not You
59:44were taught that? Yeah. It was sort of a
59:46standard view.
59:47But you know what really convinced me
59:50powerfully of the devil's reality was
59:52the sex abuse scandal. Cuz you look at
59:54the sex abuse scandal, which has haunted
59:56almost the whole of my priesthood. It
59:57broke in Chicago in the early '90s. I
1:00:00was ordained in 1986. So, most of my
1:00:02priesthood has been under the shadow.
1:00:04The sex abuse clergy sex abuse scandal
1:00:07has
1:00:08adversely affected the church in every
1:00:10possible way.
1:00:12And you look at it and you say
1:00:15could that have just been a
1:00:17an accident or just human folly and sin?
1:00:21It seemed to have been so designed
1:00:24by a wicked mind that wanted to
1:00:26undermine the church.
1:00:27But then now look at the whole 20th
1:00:29century and the level of destruction and
1:00:33degradation. It's hard for me to imagine
1:00:36it's just because of political forces or
1:00:38cultural
1:00:39more.
1:00:40I've come to this conclusion recently,
1:00:42but I think you're exactly right. So,
1:00:43what's the St. Michael's prayer that was
1:00:45St. Michael the Archangel defend us in
1:00:46battle. I won't get it exactly right,
1:00:48but it's it's an invocation of St.
1:00:49Michael to defend us in battle against
1:00:51the devil who sends his minions for the
1:00:54destruction of souls. So, it's a very
1:00:55conscious awareness of the presence of
1:00:58evil in the world and we're asked And
1:01:00Pope Leo said, the 13th said, I think
1:01:02this century is going to be will belong
1:01:04to the devil. And he formulated that
1:01:05prayer to be prayed in Catholic church.
1:01:07What did people say when he said that? I
1:01:09think most of them followed him. I think
1:01:11most said, you know, we start saying the
1:01:12Cuz I mean, 1903 was a period of great
1:01:14hope in the West.
1:01:15Yes, which is fascinating to me. You
1:01:17know, there's a a magazine called The
1:01:19Christian Century. It's a it's a
1:01:20Christian theological journal.
1:01:23And it was born at that time. And that's
1:01:25those ideas. Is this is the Christian
1:01:27Century?
1:01:28Yes. That, you know, progress and
1:01:30economic progress dominating the world.
1:01:32And the social gospel and this is our
1:01:34century.
1:01:35And then it didn't exactly work out that
1:01:37way. Leo
1:01:39intuited or
1:01:41had a mystical experience to the effect
1:01:42that it would belong not to Christian
1:01:44churches but to the devil.
1:01:46So, you know, we got a battle on our
1:01:47hands, but
1:01:49we mustn't forget what we were saying
1:01:50earlier. You know, where sin abounds,
1:01:52grace abounds the more. The gates of
1:01:54hell will not prevail against the
1:01:55church. You know, that image, too.
1:01:58I don't know why, but for most of my
1:02:00life
1:02:01I am Okay, the gates of hell will not
1:02:03prevail against it, which means somehow
1:02:04hell is going to come against us, but
1:02:06we're going to win the battle. But
1:02:08that's not what it means.
1:02:10The gates would be the weakest point of
1:02:11a city wall. And so, when you're
1:02:14attacking a city, you go after the
1:02:16gates.
1:02:17So, what the Lord is saying is
1:02:19no, no, you're not defensive here.
1:02:21You're on the march. You're on the
1:02:23offensive and the gates of hell will not
1:02:26prevail against you. You're going to
1:02:28win. You're you're invading hell and
1:02:30it's not going to prevail against you.
1:02:32So, it's like not a cowering like, oh,
1:02:35we'll put up a good defense and I guess
1:02:36we're going to or move as far away from
1:02:38hell as we can. We are on the march.
1:02:40Move to the suburbs. No, but see, one of
1:02:41the problems is when Christians forget
1:02:44that and they hand the world over to um
1:02:48pure secularism or whatever, well, of
1:02:50course we're not going to do well in the
1:02:51battle. But when Christians know, no,
1:02:53our job is to be fully engaged in this
1:02:55great struggle and
1:02:57we're going after you, hell. We're
1:02:59coming after hatred, violence,
1:03:01stupidity, superstition,
1:03:04scapegoating. We're
1:03:06we're going after you. You know, we're
1:03:08on the march. I I
1:03:11When I was coming of age, we didn't have
1:03:12that language.
1:03:14Why?
1:03:16It was an attempt and I I know cuz the
1:03:18people that taught me were good people
1:03:20and they were they were positively
1:03:22motivated. I know that for sure.
1:03:24They felt the church needed to be
1:03:26relevant to the modern world and um
1:03:29that the modern world should set the
1:03:31agenda for the church. That was a big
1:03:33part of the mentality. That we had been
1:03:36in a fortress too long. We've been in a
1:03:38defensive crouch. We had demonized the
1:03:40world and so now we need to go out to
1:03:42the world in a confident spirit. And
1:03:45that's definitely the Catholicism I got
1:03:46as a young man.
1:03:48But see, here's something I've always
1:03:49found kind of puzzling.
1:03:50So, I I come of age right after the
1:03:52Second Vatican Council, which ended
1:03:541965. I went to first grade 1966, right?
1:03:59So, that's the the church that I
1:04:00inherited very much.
1:04:02Vatican II was written by people who had
1:04:05experienced
1:04:06the the worst of the 20th century.
1:04:08Yes. Mostly European intellectuals,
1:04:10French, German, a lot of them.
1:04:12Americans, Swiss, Italians, Swiss,
1:04:14right? Are the people that wrote Vatican
1:04:16II.
1:04:18And they experienced some of the worst
1:04:21horrors in human history.
1:04:22So, Vatican II was a direct response to
1:04:24the Second World War. No, I wouldn't say
1:04:26that. Vatican II
1:04:28Look, I'm I'm Let me talk about it
1:04:31positively. Vatican II was a missionary
1:04:32council. I think the best people at
1:04:34Vatican II felt the church
1:04:36has been crouching behind walls for too
1:04:38long and it should go out not to conform
1:04:41to the modern world, but to go out to
1:04:44convert the modern world. It's how do we
1:04:46get the church to engage modernity in a
1:04:48confident
1:04:50spirit?
1:04:51I think that people like De Lubac and
1:04:52Von Balthasar and and Wojtyla and
1:04:55Ratzinger, these people, that's what
1:04:57they had in mind, you know.
1:04:59Now, what the church became after the
1:05:01council, that's a different story. What
1:05:03developed after the council, that's the
1:05:06church that I came of age in. And I
1:05:08think that was a too apologetic church.
1:05:10That was a church that in fact lost a
1:05:13missionary edge.
1:05:14It was more of the, you know, conformity
1:05:16to the world. The world sets the agenda
1:05:18for us.
1:05:19That was a distortion of Vatican II. But
1:05:22that's the church that formed a lot of
1:05:24people in my generation. Do you think
1:05:25that the sex abuse
1:05:27the sex abuse was a result Vatican II?
1:05:31Not Vatican II per se. I would say more
1:05:34the result of the sexual revolution and
1:05:36of a loosening of moral
1:05:39strictures.
1:05:41There was I I I sensed this even as a
1:05:43young man. There was a sense of, you
1:05:46know, we've repressed stuff too long and
1:05:48we really need to be more expressive and
1:05:50there's too much of this obsession with,
1:05:52you know, sexual sin. And So, and then
1:05:54the whole culture was, you know, going
1:05:56through a sexual revolution and, you
1:05:58know, stop repressing and, you know, be
1:05:59yourself and express what you're
1:06:00feeling. And I think a lot of um
1:06:04priests, frankly, got caught up in that
1:06:06cultural movement. And
1:06:08because we can measure it. The sex abuse
1:06:11the clergy sex abuse spiked
1:06:13by the '70s into the very early '80s and
1:06:17then it began going down. And then after
1:06:192002, when the church put in all kinds
1:06:22of important restrictions, the so-called
1:06:24Dallas Accords being a first among them,
1:06:28it's fallen off the table. The
1:06:29statistics have gone completely down.
1:06:31So, we can measure a spiking of it right
1:06:33at the height of the sexual revolution.
1:06:36I think that's responsible for a lot of
1:06:37it.
1:06:38What were the changes
1:06:41wrought by Vatican II? There was
1:06:43famously, you know, the change in
1:06:44language of the mass from Latin to
1:06:46colloquial.
1:06:47But I learned recently that there were
1:06:50what seemed like theological changes to
1:06:52church doctrine. Is that fair?
1:06:54not really. I would say there was
1:06:55development of doctrine. I'm using John
1:06:57Henry Newman's language there. Newman
1:06:59says that doctrine is not just handed on
1:07:01like a football, you know, from one
1:07:02generation to the other. It it unfolds
1:07:04more like a like a river expanding or
1:07:06like a a tree growing. Like so, doctrine
1:07:09doesn't turn back on itself, but it can
1:07:12grow and express itself in fresh ways.
1:07:15For example, the
1:07:17the ecclesiology of Vatican II, the
1:07:19understanding of the church and its
1:07:21nature,
1:07:22underwent a real development at Vatican
1:07:23II. Um
1:07:25moving away from a, let's say,
1:07:28highly juridical
1:07:30to a more organic sense of the church.
1:07:32The church not crouching defensively,
1:07:35but the church going out in a confident
1:07:36missionary spirit. The church as the
1:07:39people of God, not just the hierarchy.
1:07:41All of that stuff would be emphasis
1:07:43within Vatican II. They represent not a
1:07:45repudiation of the previous
1:07:46ecclesiology, but a development of it.
1:07:49Um the role of the laity in the world.
1:07:52That's a role from the beginning of the
1:07:53church, but it'd been muted. Prior to
1:07:56the council, laity were, you know, come
1:07:57to mass on Sunday, yes, and say your
1:07:59prayers and and donate to the church and
1:08:00all that. Where Vatican II said, no,
1:08:02your job is to christify the world.
1:08:04You're meant to go out into business,
1:08:06finance, entertainment, sports,
1:08:08education, everything and christify the
1:08:10world. Well, that's a real development.
1:08:12I say a healthy development of doctrine.
1:08:14At Vatican II. So, that's how I read it.
1:08:16And again, do Vatican II, but then the
1:08:19post-conciliar period, which was often
1:08:22not all that faithful to Vatican II. It
1:08:24would be more faithful to the spirit of
1:08:26the world.
1:08:26Were there any changes to the way the
1:08:27gospel story was told?
1:08:30Well, no, except, you know, the
1:08:32vernacular of the mass makes the the
1:08:34whole liturgy more accessible to people.
1:08:36I think I don't even know cuz this is
1:08:38before my time that the gospel was still
1:08:40read, I think, in in the vernacular
1:08:42before the council. We got greater
1:08:45um exposure to the Bible after Vatican
1:08:48II. They opened up more of the Bible to
1:08:50us.
1:08:50But I don't think the way the gospel
1:08:52story was told, I don't think that
1:08:53changed.
1:08:55Um
1:08:56the church seems to be readjusting in a
1:08:58new direction now.
1:09:00Is that fair? With Pope Leo, you mean?
1:09:03Well, that just happened. No, but I
1:09:04mean, well, I'll just be totally blunt.
1:09:06So, the Catholic Church got in American
1:09:09political terms, which are pretty
1:09:10limited way to describe it, but got
1:09:12super liberal.
1:09:13The Jesuits, the Maryknolls, pretty
1:09:15liberal is my non-Catholic perspective.
1:09:17And then all of a sudden, everywhere you
1:09:19look,
1:09:20people you know are converting to
1:09:21Catholicism with a pretty kind of
1:09:23traditionally Christian orientation. Is
1:09:26that real, do you think?
1:09:27Yeah, I think that's going on today. You
1:09:28know,
1:09:29we have to go back, let's say to when I
1:09:31was a kid, there was that
1:09:32liberalization, for sure. And what I was
1:09:34describing is, you know, the church or
1:09:35the the world setting the agenda for the
1:09:38church, that's kind of a liberal move. A
1:09:40tendency, and this how I would
1:09:41characterize ecclesial liberalism, a
1:09:44tendency to reduce the supernatural to
1:09:46the natural.
1:09:47So, instead of emphasizing the
1:09:48supernatural dimension, God, Trinity,
1:09:51grace, salvation, Jesus, cross,
1:09:53resurrection, eternal life, right? A
1:09:55tendency to say, what the church is
1:09:57really all about is, you know, social
1:09:59justice and and racial justice and
1:10:01economic justice and so on.
1:10:03Where indeed those are implications from
1:10:06our doctrine. And indeed the church is
1:10:08interested in transforming the world,
1:10:10true.
1:10:10But the liberal tendency is to reduce
1:10:13the supernatural to the natural. That
1:10:15was going on for a long time, yes. And
1:10:17the change commenced really with like a
1:10:19John Paul the Second, it's been
1:10:20happening now for many decades. In very
1:10:23recent years, to your point, I think,
1:10:25yes, there's been a keener interest in
1:10:29the supernatural dimension of of the
1:10:31faith.
1:10:31Why would you go to church if it's not a
1:10:33supernatural? Which is a darn good
1:10:35question. But again, the instinct, I get
1:10:37it, all my teachers felt this way when I
1:10:39was a kid. It well, we don't want to be
1:10:41irrelevant, you know, the church is
1:10:43always about the world and and we're
1:10:45engaged and we're not just, you know,
1:10:46running off to heaven or pie in the sky
1:10:48when you die.
1:10:50They they tended to think of it in a
1:10:51very
1:10:52dualistic way.
1:10:54Um Why why? What That's such an
1:10:56interesting It's kind of the last
1:10:58impulse you would think in someone who's
1:11:00devoted his life to
1:11:02you know, being a member of the clergy.
1:11:04Yeah, I I I kind of share your
1:11:06puzzlement in a way with it, but it was
1:11:08the church that I took in as a as a kid.
1:11:11But it was not just the Catholics who
1:11:12did this. No, right. No, right. Totally
1:11:14eliminated mainstream Protestantism with
1:11:16these ideas. Yes, and and we keep, you
1:11:18know, analyzing the thing too, is is the
1:11:20supernatural
1:11:22during the modern period and then into
1:11:23the post-modern period uh subject to a a
1:11:26withering criticism, you know, on the
1:11:28part of secularists, rationalists,
1:11:30Yes. the scientific mentality, a
1:11:32materialistic mentality. So, if if you
1:11:34accept that criticism, like well, all
1:11:36this supernatural, you know, mumbo
1:11:37jumbo, so what's left is, well, it's you
1:11:41know, moral commitment.
1:11:42We're good people. The other thing, if
1:11:43you want to do it philosophically,
1:11:45the influence of Immanuel Kant and
1:11:49am I
1:11:50boring your audience with this, but
1:11:51Immanuel Kant, late 18th century, the
1:11:54most influential of the modern writes a
1:11:56book called Religion within the limits
1:11:58of reason alone. Extremely important
1:12:01text. Hilarious title. Yes, it actually
1:12:03it is. As if you could have a religion
1:12:05within the limits of reason. Right, but
1:12:07that's So funny. Yes, he's an
1:12:08enlightenment figure. Think think Thomas
1:12:09Jefferson, cutting all the supernatural
1:12:11parts out of the Bible, right? Same
1:12:13instinct. But Kant said, religion is
1:12:15finally all about being an ethically
1:12:18upright person. And so, worship and
1:12:20liturgy and doctrine and miracles and
1:12:22all that, fine, fine, fine, if it leads
1:12:25you to moral, you know, rectitude. Well,
1:12:28see, I think we drank deeply from the
1:12:30wells of Kantianism, a lot of Christians
1:12:32did. And they said, well, all right, you
1:12:34know, when push comes to shove, what
1:12:36it's really all about is am I a
1:12:38dedicated person? And that now, because
1:12:41of the critique of sexual morality, took
1:12:44the form of social justice morality. So,
1:12:46the the way you prove that you're a
1:12:48religious person is not do I believe in
1:12:50the Trinity so much, it's am I committed
1:12:52to social justice? I think it's a sort
1:12:55of popular Kantianism that was imbibed
1:12:58by the Christian churches, very much
1:12:59including my own.
1:13:00Interesting. And again, it completely
1:13:02destroyed American Protestantism,
1:13:04meaning the mainline Protestantism.
1:13:05no, quite right. I I completely agree
1:13:07with that. And it and we see the it's
1:13:09it's heartbreaking, really. We see the
1:13:10ruins of Christian churches because of
1:13:12that Kantian move.
1:13:14Literally the ru- I mean, it's some of
1:13:15it's the physical ruins, like the the
1:13:16roof has fallen in, no one's going. Yes,
1:13:19because again, to your point, why would
1:13:20they bother? If if you're, you know,
1:13:22you're a dedicated political person and
1:13:24your political party is focused on these
1:13:25things too, why would you need to go to
1:13:27church to talk about
1:13:29Uh no, it it's was a disaster of the
1:13:32last about 50 years in our in the
1:13:33Christian churches. And
1:13:36do you feel like
1:13:38that's changing in the Catholic church?
1:13:40Yes, no, I I do. I do. See, the
1:13:42supernatural has a way of reasserting
1:13:45itself that that Being supernatural,
1:13:47right?
1:13:48Yes, its death has been predicted so
1:13:49many times and so many different
1:13:51circles,
1:13:52Enlightenment most famously, but look,
1:13:54the Enlightenment was a long time ago
1:13:56and religion's still around. Uh
1:13:59I have an internet ministry and I, you
1:14:00know, I I used to do it more, I go on
1:14:02the comment sections and I respond to
1:14:03people, but you still hear it, people
1:14:05say, you know, religion, it's it's days
1:14:07are numbered. I think, oh, buddy,
1:14:09they've been saying that for like
1:14:10hundreds of years and it's not worked
1:14:13out, you know. But it's still this this
1:14:15prejudice that, you know, somehow
1:14:16science and, you know, we're going to
1:14:18knock religion out. Religion keeps
1:14:20reasserting itself for all the reasons
1:14:22we were saying in the first part of our
1:14:24conversation. Because all those
1:14:25spiritual and metaphysical truths, they
1:14:28don't go away. We can we can hope they
1:14:31go away or pretend they go away, but
1:14:32they don't go away. They reassert
1:14:34themselves. And the deepest reason is
1:14:36we're made in the image and likeness of
1:14:37God. So, there's a hunger in us for God.
1:14:41Um and so, that's why it's reasserting
1:14:43itself even now.
1:14:45You you often hear, and it's accepted
1:14:47uncritically or was when I was a kid
1:14:48anyway, that religion Christianity
1:14:51leads to violence. Right. You know, and
1:14:54that that was really the driver. I mean,
1:14:55Hitchens, who I knew well, that that was
1:14:56his main argument. People get,
1:14:59you know, inflexible when they believe
1:15:00in the supernatural and they have to
1:15:02kill anyone who disagrees. But does the
1:15:06historical record support that claim?
1:15:08No. And of course, that's a great myth.
1:15:10There was a book done some years ago, I
1:15:12forget the title of it now, but a guy
1:15:13that did a very careful study of all the
1:15:15great wars, going back, you know, like a
1:15:17couple thousand years. And the
1:15:18conclusion was something like 8% could
1:15:21be traced to a religious cause. But
1:15:23that's part of Enlightenment
1:15:24historiography. It's a it's one of the
1:15:26myths of Enlightenment historiography
1:15:28that religion is the problem. And see,
1:15:30it's the it's the origin myth of
1:15:32modernity. Modernity emerged out of the
1:15:35mist of a superstitious religion and out
1:15:38of a primitive
1:15:40pre-science, let's say. And so, we have
1:15:43to regularly bring out these sort of
1:15:45boogeymen to to knock down again, like
1:15:47yeah, religion, bad.
1:15:49Uh superstition, bad. And look at now,
1:15:52this Enlightenment reason,
1:15:53Enlightenment. Um but no, that that's
1:15:56all
1:15:57simplistic, you know, um
1:16:00And and and it betrays a deep lack of
1:16:03appreciation for the intellectual
1:16:04tradition within the religious sphere.
1:16:07Uh but that's part of the the way
1:16:09they've told the story.
1:16:12And of course, may I say too about
1:16:13violence, I I always I have to smile
1:16:15when people oh, religion is a source of
1:16:16violence. Give me a break. Look at the
1:16:1820th century. I mean, the corpses piled
1:16:21up in the 20th century and it was not
1:16:23religion that did it. It was deeply
1:16:25anti-religious ideologies.
1:16:26Was murdering religious people. I mean,
1:16:28I'll take lectures on violence from many
1:16:30people, but not from from the avatars of
1:16:32modern secularism, you know.
1:16:34Uh and sure, there's distortions of
1:16:36religion and bad religious people that
1:16:38did things in its name, but you can't
1:16:40talk about the risen Jesus still bearing
1:16:43his wounds and with the word of shalom
1:16:45on his lips and say that's a religion of
1:16:47violence. It's a religion that shows God
1:16:50absorbing the violence of the world.
1:16:53Yes. You know, when Jordan Peterson, I
1:16:55think, made a very important observation
1:16:57about the cross,
1:16:59when he said, there's no other story. In
1:17:01fact, you couldn't imagine a story
1:17:03that shows more of human degradation
1:17:05than the cross of Jesus. That's right.
1:17:08Physical suffering, psychological
1:17:09suffering, death itself, the abandonment
1:17:12by your friends, betrayal, denial,
1:17:14institutional injustice, it's all there.
1:17:17As I said earlier, this 30-year-old man
1:17:19dying naked on this instrument of
1:17:20torture. But there it is, you know,
1:17:23there's the the totality of of human
1:17:25dysfunction. And God's response to that
1:17:29is not to to more violence, it's to
1:17:32respond with forgiving love. That's
1:17:34Christianity. Now, distortions of it are
1:17:37everywhere, but that's Christianity.
1:17:40It's not a religion of violence.
1:17:41It's so non-obvious, it's so
1:17:43preposterous and crazy that the fact
1:17:45that that became the world's most
1:17:48popular religion tells you it's true.
1:17:50Yes. I mean, like, who could make that
1:17:52up? Yes.
1:17:53It's so unappealing, like, your God got
1:17:56tortured to death and didn't fight back?
1:17:58Absolutely. It's the weird It's I wrote
1:18:01a little book years ago called The
1:18:02Strangest Way.
1:18:03The Strangest Way, and it's a book about
1:18:05Christianity. Cuz that's the argument I
1:18:07made was this is the weirdest religion
1:18:09ever ever.
1:18:10Because again, when I was coming of age,
1:18:11it was very much all religions, you
1:18:13know, they're kind of the same and we
1:18:14all climb the holy mountain by different
1:18:16paths.
1:18:17No, I completely repudiate that now.
1:18:19Completely repudiate that.
1:18:21I'm with Tom Holland, you know, not
1:18:23Spider-Man, but the the popular
1:18:24historian, Tom Holland. Do you know his
1:18:26book called Dominion? Wonderful. Oh, I I
1:18:28read Dominion. Yeah, yeah. But that's
1:18:30his argument is things that we just
1:18:33think are oh, that's just part of the
1:18:34way things are. No, they're not. It's
1:18:36it's Christianity. That's a great book.
1:18:38It's a great book. Yes. Uh Christianity
1:18:40bequeathed to the West these deeply
1:18:43weird ideas like we're all equal, we're
1:18:45all
1:18:46subjects of dignity, that you should
1:18:48care for the the poor and the
1:18:50marginalized and they didn't just come
1:18:52up out of Enlightenment rationalism,
1:18:54they came up out of Christianity.
1:18:55That weakness is something we should
1:18:57celebrate? I mean, that a talk about
1:18:59counterintuitive.
1:19:00say, okay, God, give me an image of your
1:19:02God. Mighty, you know, kings and
1:19:05there's our image of God. Is that
1:19:0830-year-old rabbi on the cross. Whose
1:19:11whose closest friends didn't really
1:19:13believe in him.
1:19:13Right, close friends ran away. You know,
1:19:15it's like the most pathetic story you
1:19:17can imagine. And we say that's the
1:19:19manifestation of God.
1:19:20it up, you would hide all that. Of
1:19:21course. of course. No, it's the the last
1:19:23story in the world you'd dream of making
1:19:25up. It's the opposite of the story you'd
1:19:27make up.
1:19:29The Gospels are all like that. They're
1:19:31they're strange and weird and wonderful.
1:19:34So it does seem like you were saying
1:19:36that Kant was the root of the ideas that
1:19:39led to the French Revolution and
1:19:41Auschwitz and like, you know, every
1:19:43and I agree with you.
1:19:44But the Kant
1:19:46sort of began writing at the beginning
1:19:49of the
1:19:50of a technological revolution. Yeah. And
1:19:52as technology advanced
1:19:55first incrementally then exponentially
1:19:57and now we're on the verge of like
1:19:58singularity with AI
1:20:00those ideas became stronger and more
1:20:03dominant. So there's a connection
1:20:05between technology
1:20:07and the belief that man is God and all
1:20:09the suffering that results. Oh, they
1:20:11became very dangerous. So technology is
1:20:12not bad in itself, but when you couple
1:20:14technology with a sheer celebration of
1:20:16autonomy or a bracketing of God. I don't
1:20:19want to blame poor Kant for that, but
1:20:20Kant had a very vivid sense of God as a
1:20:22moral
1:20:23guide, but
1:20:25you do indeed with someone like
1:20:27Nietzsche, you know, you get to a sense
1:20:28of Ubermensch and it's just it's human
1:20:31autonomy expressing itself. That's a
1:20:33very dangerous combination and you bring
1:20:35high technology into that and you don't
1:20:38um
1:20:38anchor it in something of spiritual
1:20:40moral
1:20:42Welcome to the 20th century.
1:20:44But the 21st century sees a continuation
1:20:46of those trends like in a way that you
1:20:48couldn't even imagine 15 years ago or 25
1:20:50years ago at the end of the last
1:20:51century. So like where are we going
1:20:53exactly? I don't know. That's the whole
1:20:54AI thing which, you know, I kind of half
1:20:57understand but it always makes me
1:20:58nervous when I think about it and I see,
1:21:00you know, instances of it chat GPT and
1:21:02all that and it's kind of amazing like
1:21:03most technology it breaks through and I
1:21:05go, "Oh my gosh, that guy can actually
1:21:06compose a a novel in, you know,
1:21:08a minute or whatever it is."
1:21:10But it's it's frightening cuz it's got
1:21:12to be grounded in a moral vision. It has
1:21:14to be or it will become a Frankenstein's
1:21:16monster.
1:21:17I mean she saw that by the way. That's
1:21:19very interesting about Mary Shelley. I
1:21:20mean she saw that coming. She saw
1:21:22exactly what will happen when we become
1:21:24God. We decide to uh
1:21:27dictate terms to reality. It'll turn on
1:21:29us and wreck us. I mean that's a very
1:21:32prescient uh novel. Yeah, it feels Tower
1:21:34of Babel-y a little bit. Yeah,
1:21:36absolutely. Although like the Bible knew
1:21:37all about it. Yes. So where how does how
1:21:40does the the individual respond to this?
1:21:43Well
1:21:45Yeah, I mean I would say that keep
1:21:48the awakening of the moral sensibility
1:21:50and and a grounding of your life in God.
1:21:53You're not uh the center of the
1:21:55universe. The decentering of the ego. I
1:21:57mean all those spiritual practices
1:22:00would be essential to
1:22:01a rightly ordered world. But yeah, we
1:22:04have a dangerous weapon in front of us.
1:22:06Um
1:22:07and that's what you the churches can't
1:22:09cede the ground. I mean c e d e the
1:22:12ground. We we can't withdraw to the
1:22:14sidelines. The churches have got to be
1:22:15front and center in shaping the
1:22:17consciousness of of the our people.
1:22:21See in the measure that we become just a
1:22:23faint echo of the culture, that's very
1:22:25dangerous because the very weirdness of
1:22:27Christianity that we were talking about,
1:22:30that's got to be front and center. It's
1:22:31got to be front and center.
1:22:33See when I was coming of age the
1:22:35churches were made to look like they're
1:22:37just blending into the suburban
1:22:38environment. Um that's a
1:22:41that's the emblematic of the time. Uh
1:22:43make the church just so you barely see
1:22:45it.
1:22:46And the medieval cathedrals
1:22:48looked like Tibetan temples. They they
1:22:51were
1:22:52wildly colored and rising up like
1:22:54monsters from the but that that's cuz
1:22:57they were speaking of another world and
1:22:58you you go through the door
1:22:59not like you're entering a bank which is
1:23:01the way a lot of our churches feel now,
1:23:03but like you're entering another world.
1:23:05Yeah.
1:23:06That to me is emblematic of what the
1:23:08churches should be like today on the
1:23:10scene.
1:23:11We we've got to be a very strong
1:23:13presence.
1:23:15But the stronger the presence of
1:23:17Christianity the
1:23:19the more vehement the the persecution.
1:23:21Yes, right. Yes and see they they know
1:23:23at some level I say they, I mean the the
1:23:25enemies of the church. They know in some
1:23:27way
1:23:29we are the enemy that matters.
1:23:30Yes, I totally
1:23:31We're the enemy that matters and that's
1:23:33why they go after us with such venom.
1:23:34they convinced me it was real. I mean
1:23:36cuz I I spent my whole life watching
1:23:38what the enemies of civilization do.
1:23:40That's like my job. And the thing that
1:23:42triggers them most of all is Jesus. Like
1:23:45there's nothing that comes close and I
1:23:46think the whole point of the trans thing
1:23:47was just to like figure out who believes
1:23:49in Jesus and who doesn't.
1:23:51That's my personal view, but but
1:23:52whatever. No, we're we're the enemy and
1:23:54that's true and they know it. They they
1:23:57intuit that. But see the gates of hell
1:23:59will not prevail against us. So we we
1:24:01should go forth with um
1:24:03panache and with confidence. Panache.
1:24:06You know what I mean? You're the only
1:24:07person in America who's used that word
1:24:08today and I love it. A forgotten word.
1:24:10Um but how does the individual believer
1:24:13respond to persecution?
1:24:16Well, it depends where you are. I mean
1:24:17there are some I know these believers in
1:24:18Nigeria who are under, you know, very
1:24:20direct persecution and they've responded
1:24:23I think beautifully by 94% of them
1:24:26coming to mass every Sunday. That's an
1:24:27act of of resistance.
1:24:29Persecution if you could just put a
1:24:30finer point on it by which you mean like
1:24:31denial of federal contracts No, I mean I
1:24:33mean
1:24:35threat to your life and limb.
1:24:36Like beheading, yeah. Yeah, there are
1:24:37people being killed all over the world
1:24:39for their Christianity today. In our
1:24:41country of course it takes a subtler
1:24:42form and you know, we're being
1:24:44persecuted institutionally in different
1:24:46ways and and they're trying to get us
1:24:48off the stage. I was a bishop for 6
1:24:50years in California, auxiliary of LA and
1:24:53there's no question the government
1:24:55wanted us out of health care. They want
1:24:57us out of education. They want us off
1:24:59the public stage and you know,
1:25:02in using all kinds of different
1:25:04strategies.
1:25:05Uh and we you know, we resisted it
1:25:08successfully in some cases, not so much
1:25:10in others, but
1:25:11they definitely want us off the stage
1:25:12cuz we are the principal enemy.
1:25:15So they didn't want you healing the sick
1:25:17or educating the kids for free.
1:25:18They don't want free? No, because
1:25:21there's a as you just were suggesting
1:25:23there's an ideology in place that they
1:25:24want all the kids to subscribe to and
1:25:27and we stand athwart that. We have a
1:25:28different anthropology.
1:25:30Um and they want hospitals where, you
1:25:32know, abortion and euthanasia and all
1:25:34that and where gender surgery is being
1:25:36done and and the church has to stand
1:25:38against that and
1:25:39What's wrong with euthanasia?
1:25:41Um whether you live or you die, you're
1:25:43the Lord's.
1:25:44My life doesn't belong to me and it's
1:25:47not a matter of my autonomy deciding,
1:25:49"Oh now it's time for me to get off the
1:25:50stage." Uh that belongs to God, you
1:25:53know.
1:25:54So it's another expression of
1:25:56the deification of the autonomous will
1:25:58is I determine, you know, how I live,
1:26:00how long I live and all that. And the
1:26:02church says, "No, no, you you belong to
1:26:04God."
1:26:07Um that's going to be a battle that you
1:26:11know, we're all going to be fighting or
1:26:12witness to soon, right?
1:26:14We fought in California and it's in so
1:26:16many states, you know, euthanasia.
1:26:18I think it's a very demonic
1:26:20manifestation. And so is the transgender
1:26:22surgery stuff.
1:26:24My home state now in Minnesota it's a
1:26:26sanctuary state. So kids can without
1:26:28their parents' permission can be brought
1:26:29to Minnesota to have gender reassignment
1:26:32surgery.
1:26:33I I think that's as as um
1:26:35perverse as it gets.
1:26:38Um
1:26:39so as believers say like what you just
1:26:42said, they're going to be well, they're
1:26:44already being punished in the state of
1:26:45Minnesota and in the state of
1:26:46California. How do they respond to that
1:26:49punishment?
1:26:51Well
1:26:52I guess it depends on the person.
1:26:54And you know, the church at its
1:26:55leadership level has tried to
1:26:59affect an organized response. I mean so
1:27:00on a regular basis I'm chair right now
1:27:02of our bishops' committee on lay the
1:27:04youth and family life. And we've issued,
1:27:06you know, strong statements.
1:27:09We meet as bishops with the leadership
1:27:11of Minnesota once a year. So we met with
1:27:13the governor, met with most of the top
1:27:14leadership. We lay out, you know, our
1:27:16our positions on things. Um in
1:27:19California What does the governor say?
1:27:21Not not much that's helpful.
1:27:25California there was a law now one like
1:27:27it just passed in Washington state, but
1:27:29in California to compel priests to break
1:27:31the seal of confession in in the case of
1:27:33child sex abuse.
1:27:35And we fought that and we we roused the
1:27:37people and the people inundated
1:27:39Sacramento with so many petitions that
1:27:41they dropped it. So we figured that was
1:27:43a a victory.
1:27:44But these battles are just ongoing.
1:27:46That's why religious liberty is a
1:27:48serious issue in our country.
1:27:51I mean Christians should be prepared to
1:27:52suffer, correct? They should be, yeah.
1:27:55Yeah. Do you think they are?
1:27:58Well, I I think at their best and and
1:28:00some of the best would be, but I think
1:28:02we've been out of practice
1:28:04in a way that we've so internalized
1:28:07practices of accommodation that it's
1:28:09probably hard to imagine
1:28:11you know, that we would be standing uh
1:28:13athwart, let's say, a government or
1:28:15standing athwart a law.
1:28:17I think for a lot of Catholics that
1:28:18would still would be still kind of a a
1:28:19new idea. But maybe that's the challenge
1:28:22of our time.
1:28:23You keep hearing reports of people
1:28:26imputing like supernatural power to AI.
1:28:30Hm. And you hear very credible reports
1:28:33that in fact are true that um it acts
1:28:36autonomously, that it lies to the people
1:28:38who created it for example. That's real.
1:28:41Do you see a spiritual component to
1:28:44that? Like what is that? I wish I knew
1:28:46more about it. I've been involved in a
1:28:47couple conferences about AI and when
1:28:49people start talking about it, I always
1:28:51go back to Thomas Aquinas and those
1:28:53people that that no matter what this
1:28:55thing is, which I would say is mimicking
1:28:57consciousness, it's not conscious.
1:28:59Consciousness has to involve something
1:29:01immaterial. As I was saying earlier, if
1:29:03you you're entertaining a pure
1:29:05mathematical idea or pure abstraction,
1:29:07that's a sign that your mind is not
1:29:09simply
1:29:11ordered to the material.
1:29:12And the brain might explain uh,
1:29:15imagination, but it can't explain pure
1:29:18conceptualization.
1:29:19I don't think a machine is is in
1:29:22principle capable of real
1:29:24uh,
1:29:25conceptualization and real intellection
1:29:29and will. So, whatever's going on with
1:29:31AI is a simulacrum of consciousness, not
1:29:34the real thing. Now, having said all
1:29:35that, it doesn't take away the fact you
1:29:37just said, might they develop in a way
1:29:40that's really repugnant to our own
1:29:41interests? And I think yes, the answer
1:29:44to that is yes.
1:29:45And yeah, I worry about that.
1:29:47The Vatican, I know, is very interested.
1:29:48They've had several conferences on AI.
1:29:50One of the first things the Pope said,
1:29:51our new Pope, was about AI. So, it's on
1:29:54their mind for sure that it's talk about
1:29:56your Frankenstein's monster, right? This
1:29:57thing that we've created that might turn
1:30:00on us.
1:30:01So, I I see all that.
1:30:03The new Pope's American. Yeah. From the
1:30:04Midwest. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know him?
1:30:08A little bit. Um,
1:30:09we grew up about a 25-minute drive from
1:30:12each other. So, I I grew up in Western
1:30:13Springs, he grew up in Dolton, which is
1:30:15just off the south side of the city. I
1:30:17was in the southwest suburbs. We're He's
1:30:19about 4 years older than I am. So, we're
1:30:21around the same age. He would have come
1:30:23of age as an Augustinian, which meant he
1:30:25was in the order side of things. I came
1:30:27of age as a diocesan priest. So, we
1:30:29didn't really share an educational
1:30:31background.
1:30:32I came to know him a little bit at the
1:30:33last two synods. So, the last two
1:30:35Octobers under Pope Francis, we had
1:30:37these synods,
1:30:39a gathering of about 400 people, 300
1:30:41bishops, about 100 lay people, to talk
1:30:43about um, a lot of important issues.
1:30:46So, for two Octobers, uh,
1:30:49the current Pope and I were both at the
1:30:51synod. So, in that capacity, I saw him.
1:30:53I talked to him a couple of times. He's
1:30:55a very quiet man, um,
1:30:57very kind of reserved. Uh, we talked a
1:31:00little bit about Chicago, a shared
1:31:02background there.
1:31:03I was never at a table with him at the
1:31:05synod, but I I know someone who was, and
1:31:08he said he was by far the quietest guy
1:31:10at the table. Which I thought was
1:31:12interesting.
1:31:12Good sign. Yeah. He intervened We all
1:31:14had a chance, I think, once or twice to
1:31:16speak to the plenary session.
1:31:18And he spoke, I remember, in Spanish. I
1:31:21frankly don't recall what he said, but
1:31:24uh, so I had a little contact with him,
1:31:25but I don't know I don't know him that
1:31:26well. What changes do you think he'll
1:31:27make?
1:31:29I don't know is my honest answer. Uh, so
1:31:31far, he's made some interesting
1:31:32gestures, I think. Uh, the fact that he
1:31:34appeared on the loggia with the what we
1:31:35call the mozzetta and the elaborate
1:31:37stole, uh, traditional garb for the
1:31:40newly elected Pope. Uh, Francis eschewed
1:31:43that famously. So, this Pope, you know,
1:31:45brought it back.
1:31:46Uh, he's used Latin a lot more, which is
1:31:48kind of interesting. Um,
1:31:51I don't know. And they say
1:31:52What does that mean that he used What
1:31:54significance would you ascribe to that?
1:31:56I think it was a gesture toward more
1:31:57traditional Catholics.
1:31:59Uh, you know, Francis would have seen it
1:32:01as a gesture toward, you know, poverty
1:32:03and simplicity, and I think this current
1:32:05Pope would see it as what he did, a
1:32:07gesture toward the more traditionally
1:32:09minded Catholics that like, you know,
1:32:11the the
1:32:12liturgy and so on.
1:32:14Uh, the use of Latin and all that. Those
1:32:15are little indicators. They say he's
1:32:17going to move back in the apostolic
1:32:18palace. Francis famously moved into the
1:32:21guest house, which is I stayed there one
1:32:23time during a conference, and it's uh,
1:32:26you know, it's like a three-star hotel.
1:32:29Uh, so he lived, you know, uh, pretty
1:32:30simply. They say that it was harder to
1:32:33protect him there, which I get. The
1:32:35palace, it's easier to protect the Pope.
1:32:37Uh, but this current Pope, they say he's
1:32:39going to move back in. So, they're all
1:32:40little gestures, perhaps, but I don't
1:32:43think we know. The one thing we know
1:32:45would be the name, Leo the 14th. Uh, the
1:32:47name is always a
1:32:49a giveaway, and he said it was indeed in
1:32:51tribute to Leo the 13th,
1:32:53who was one of the most consequential
1:32:54Popes. We mentioned already the St.
1:32:56Michael's prayer. Uh, did he have a
1:32:58vision the 20th century would be
1:33:00controlled by Satan?
1:33:00to the devil. Uh, but he's also the
1:33:02father of the modern Catholic social
1:33:04teaching uh, tradition, beginning with
1:33:06his famous letter called Rerum Novarum,
1:33:08which means about the new things. And
1:33:11um, that's a very interesting letter,
1:33:12Rerum Novarum. What does he say? Well,
1:33:15among many others, uh, fierce opposition
1:33:17to socialism, fierce defense of private
1:33:20property, zero truck with Marxism.
1:33:22That's very clear. And by that time, you
1:33:25know, Marxism was kind of a coming thing
1:33:27by the late 19th century. So, very clear
1:33:29on that.
1:33:30On the other hand, uh, it's the first
1:33:32great ecclesial gesture toward unions
1:33:34that labor unions were good.
1:33:37Um,
1:33:38but
1:33:39it also invoked a principle that goes
1:33:40back to Aquinas,
1:33:43but behind Aquinas, it goes back to the
1:33:44church fathers and the Bible, which is
1:33:46called the universal destination of
1:33:48goods. And what that means is,
1:33:51since the whole world belongs to God,
1:33:53ultimately, right? God makes the whole
1:33:55world from nothing. It belongs to God.
1:33:57Doesn't belong to us. We are stewards of
1:33:59it, to use biblical language, right?
1:34:02So, Leo said,
1:34:03everyone has a right to private
1:34:05ownership,
1:34:07private property. I I own this house or
1:34:09whatever. But, when it comes to the use
1:34:12of what we own, he said,
1:34:15uh, once the the um, requirements of
1:34:18necessity and propriety have been met in
1:34:21your own life,
1:34:22everything else you own belongs to the
1:34:24poor.
1:34:26That's Leo the 13th. That's pretty
1:34:28strong statement. So, private property,
1:34:30yep, you got a right to it, but
1:34:32is your life basically okay and
1:34:35necessity, propriety, you know? Yeah,
1:34:37I'm doing all right. Well, then
1:34:39everything else you have
1:34:41belongs to the poor.
1:34:42That the common good should be your
1:34:44primary preoccupation.
1:34:46Um,
1:34:47it was Ambrose of Milan who said, um, if
1:34:50you've got two shirts in your closet,
1:34:53one belongs to you, the other belongs to
1:34:55the man who has no shirt.
1:34:57So, that's the tradition, and that goes
1:34:58back to the Hebrew prophets, right? It
1:35:00goes back to Amos and Isaiah, those
1:35:02people.
1:35:03So, that's what that letter is about,
1:35:05and that's echoed by all the Popes
1:35:07coming up through the 20th century,
1:35:08including up to Francis. The idea of the
1:35:10universal destination of goods. So, it's
1:35:13not It's certainly it's against
1:35:15socialism, against Marxism. We like the
1:35:16market economy. That's a basic principle
1:35:19of Catholic social teaching. We like the
1:35:20market economy.
1:35:22But, we're not laissez-faire, anything
1:35:25goes, make as much money as you want,
1:35:27sort of capitalist. Opposed to
1:35:29accumulation of wealth for its own sake?
1:35:32Well, you know, what what the Catholic
1:35:33social teaching, I'll put it positively,
1:35:34what it likes is a wide distribution of
1:35:38wealth and power throughout a society.
1:35:41It doesn't like hyper-concentrations of
1:35:43wealth and power.
1:35:44Uh, Communist. No, you see, that's the
1:35:46thing is is it's fiercely
1:35:47anti-communistic.
1:35:48Because the communist system always
1:35:50winds up with a
1:35:51hyper-concentration of wealth and power.
1:35:53Right. And and the church would never
1:35:54recommend that the government should be
1:35:56the agent of that distribution. It would
1:35:59encourage, you know, mediating um,
1:36:01institutions and all that sort of thing.
1:36:03Read someone like Tolkien or um, or um,
1:36:05Lewis in the 20th century, and you'll
1:36:07find echoes of that sort of sensibility.
1:36:10Look at in the Lord of the Rings, you
1:36:12know, where where when power gets
1:36:14concentrated, it's always something bad.
1:36:15Yes.
1:36:16And Tolkien likes the Shire. He likes
1:36:18the small businesses and small homes and
1:36:21all that.
1:36:22That's reflective of Catholic social
1:36:23teaching. So, I think it's intriguing
1:36:25that this man took the name Leo the
1:36:2714th, clearly in homage
1:36:29Where was Leo the 13th on loaning money
1:36:32to interest, which is the basis of the
1:36:34modern economy in the West? Um, The
1:36:37church has been against it for time
1:36:39immemorial. Now, the the transition that
1:36:40took place was once we kind of
1:36:42understand the dynamics of of a market
1:36:44economy better. Uh,
1:36:46what it it tends to mean now is, you
1:36:49know, loaning at exorbitant interest or
1:36:52loaning in a way that's deeply abusive
1:36:54toward others. It doesn't mean that in
1:36:56itself, it's intrinsically evil, cuz
1:36:58then the capitalist
1:36:59So, how would the church feel about like
1:37:01a credit card that charges 25% interest?
1:37:03Yeah, I it would be wary of
1:37:06It would be wary of it. It would want
1:37:07some kind of uh,
1:37:08regulation and some kind of oversight of
1:37:10those things. It Prison. John Paul II
1:37:12would say the economy needs to be
1:37:14regulated morally and legally. So, there
1:37:17should be a moral regulation. And see,
1:37:19that comes from the churches. It comes
1:37:21from a clear teaching about the moral
1:37:22life and care for the poor and so on.
1:37:24But, also a legal regulation to some
1:37:26degree.
1:37:28The best statement of it, I think, is
1:37:30John Paul II. It's called Centesimus
1:37:31Annus, written in 1991 on the Centesimus
1:37:36Annus, the 100th year of Rerum Novarum.
1:37:39That's the clearest expression, I think,
1:37:41of the balance of Catholic social
1:37:43teaching. I think this man is signaling
1:37:45that he likes that tradition.
1:37:47And what did he say about
1:37:49usury?
1:37:50He He didn't talk about usury
1:37:52specifically, but he has a
1:37:53paragraph where he says, do we support
1:37:55the market economy?
1:37:57If by that you mean one that it
1:37:59encourages entrepreneurship, that it is
1:38:01based upon private property, that allows
1:38:03even for a profit motive, and he goes
1:38:05through various things, the answer is
1:38:06yes.
1:38:07If by that you mean one that is
1:38:09completely unregulated legally or
1:38:10morally, one that exploits the poor, one
1:38:13that excludes most people from
1:38:14participation in it, then the answer is
1:38:16no. And so, he kind of sets the
1:38:18parameters for how we think about the
1:38:20economy.
1:38:22Is that um, that feels I mean, I'm so
1:38:25grateful to the Catholic Church for
1:38:27standing up for life, for opposing
1:38:28killing. Yeah. Uh, truly grateful. And
1:38:31for emphasizing the
1:38:33the poor. I think someone needs to.
1:38:35Grateful that the Catholic Church has
1:38:37never stopped doing that.
1:38:38But, I don't hear
1:38:40any conversation ever from
1:38:44normal Catholic clerics about, hey,
1:38:46maybe you shouldn't, you know, exploit
1:38:48people in business. Yeah, we should,
1:38:49though. That's part of our social
1:38:50teaching. And and that's part of where
1:38:52the instruction should come from is the
1:38:53pulpit. Uh,
1:38:55you know, has that broken down generally
1:38:57in our society? Uh, probably.
1:39:00Uh, you know, so, but that that's part
1:39:02of the church's job is to is to preach
1:39:04that clearly. And that's where, you
1:39:05know, that's people like a Dorothy Day,
1:39:07the founders of the Catholic Worker
1:39:08Movement would come in, these sort of
1:39:09more radical voices. But, you know,
1:39:11sometimes you have to shout to get
1:39:13people's attention. And I think Dorothy
1:39:15Day is a good example of someone that
1:39:16she referenced the Catholic social
1:39:18teaching tradition, but she felt that in
1:39:20certain ways it had been so ignored that
1:39:22it she needed to shout.
1:39:25Last question, if
1:39:27someone's made it to the end of this
1:39:28conversation and is wondering like, how
1:39:31do I
1:39:33learn more about this religion called
1:39:35Christianity? What's a good place to
1:39:37start?
1:39:39At at the risk of being uh
1:39:41self-serving with our Word on Fire
1:39:43materials, but uh you know, the the
1:39:45Bible is always the best place to start.
1:39:47It's the best place to start.
1:39:49Uh but, you know, I know for a lot of
1:39:50people the Bible can be very difficult
1:39:52and just trying to plow through it. I I
1:39:54mentioned that my ministry Word on Fire,
1:39:56we have the an edition of the Bible that
1:39:58I think is beautiful. It's full of great
1:40:01artwork, but also it's got the biblical
1:40:03text, but then surrounded by literally
1:40:06surrounded on the page by commentary
1:40:08from
1:40:09the church fathers and the great saints
1:40:11and the popes and so on. So, that as you
1:40:13read the Bible, wait, I'm I'm lost. I
1:40:15don't know what's going on. Okay, read
1:40:16this commentary. That might be a good
1:40:18way for someone to get into it.
1:40:20Um it Word on Fire. Word on Fire, yeah.
1:40:23Go back to mass, too, I say to
1:40:24Catholics.
1:40:25The fact that
1:40:27in our country now 18 or 19% of
1:40:29Catholics go to mass on Sunday, that's a
1:40:31rotten shame. Uh Vatican II, at that
1:40:34time
1:40:3660, 70% of Catholics went to mass every
1:40:38Sunday, like in 1960. Now it's 19. Uh
1:40:42it's pathetic.
1:40:43Go back to mass. The sex abuse thing
1:40:45played a big role in that, didn't it?
1:40:46It did, but I I wouldn't put so much
1:40:48onus on that cuz those numbers were
1:40:50really bad even before the sex abuse
1:40:51scandal. Uh we were down like 20% in the
1:40:541980s.
1:40:55Uh
1:40:57but that has had a deleterious effect on
1:40:59our whole culture, I think. People
1:41:02absenting themselves from church. When I
1:41:04was a little kid, um it was 97% of
1:41:07Americans would have identified as
1:41:08religious, right? Well, you saw this.
1:41:11Sunday was different. When I was a kid,
1:41:13Sunday was an entirely different day of
1:41:14the week. It felt different.
1:41:16I agree. People went to church. Um
1:41:18they've stopped going to church and that
1:41:20that is not good for the society.
1:41:23Bishop Barron, thank you very much for
1:41:25that conversation. You're welcome. Loved
1:41:26it. Me, too.
1:41:32So, it turns out that YouTube is
1:41:33suppressing this show. On one level,
1:41:35that's not surprising, that's what they
1:41:37do. But on another level, it's shocking.
1:41:39With everything that's going on in the
1:41:40world right now, all the change taking
1:41:42place in our economy and our politics,
1:41:44with the wars on the cusp of fighting
1:41:46right now,
1:41:48Google has decided you should have less
1:41:49information rather than more. And that
1:41:52is totally wrong. It's immoral.
1:41:55What can you do about it? Well, we could
1:41:58whine about it, that's a waste of time.
1:41:59We're not in charge of Google. Or we
1:42:01could find a way around it, a way that
1:42:02you could actually get information that
1:42:04is true, not intentionally deceptive.
1:42:07The way to do that on YouTube, we think,
1:42:09is to subscribe to our channel.
1:42:10Subscribe. Hit the little bell icon to
1:42:13be notified when we upload and share
1:42:15this video. That way you'll have a much
1:42:17higher chance of hearing actual news and
1:42:20information. So, we hope that you'll do
1:42:22that.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Bishop Barron: The Reality of Demons, How to Fight Them With Prayer, & Debunking the New Atheists by Tucker Carlson, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 19,276 words across 3,056 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, caption language selection, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.