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Bishop Barron Presents | Michael Knowles - Philosophy and Culture — Transcript

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0:02[Music]
0:07I'm delighted to be here with Michael
0:08nolles my friend who is the um host of
0:11the Michael nolles show on The Daily
0:12wire and I think one of the most
0:14perceptive commentators in all things
0:16cultural political and religious so
0:18Michael delighted to be with you today
0:20well thank you very much your Excellency
0:21it's wonderful to be here with you as
0:23always well good thanks hey I wonder if
0:25we could start with um someone that uh
0:27we both admire very much namely William
0:30F Buckley uh you're a Yale graduate as
0:32Buckley was you just wrote the forward
0:34didn't you to a reissue of God and man
0:36at Yale Buckley's famous first book I
0:39remember as a kid this going back to the
0:401970s watching Firing Line and in some
0:44ways this program we run right now and
0:46many others like it are descendant from
0:48U firing line but Buckley would be on
0:51for a you know solid hour with pretty
0:53highlevel people and talking in a
0:55serious way and as a kid when I didn't
0:57really understand what he was saying I
0:58just liked watching him he was a sort of
1:01fascinating character and his
1:04vocabulary impressed me I remember one
1:06time he used the word
1:08exiguous and the person said I don't
1:10know what that means and B said it means
1:12small and the guy said why didn't you
1:15just say small and he said because I
1:17needed the syllables like there was
1:19something in the rhythm of the sentence
1:21right but the my favorite absolute
1:23favorite bism is the word ipida ism
1:26ipsid ditismilan
1:30like it was already said is he said it
1:33or yeah like he himself said it so it
1:34means something said just on your own
1:36authority without you know sufficient
1:38evidence what he said was if I might
1:41risk an ipid exuism and I was maybe 14
1:4415 years old I thought what in the world
1:46is an ipida ism I try now to work it in
1:49the conversation whenever I can like
1:51that's just an iodism yeah I'd like even
1:54just the the meter and the
1:56scan quite poetic right so tell me about
2:00a little bit um obviously you didn't
2:01know him but you came to know him
2:03through his books and his videos and all
2:05that why does he matter today why would
2:07someone like Buckley still be important
2:08for us today he matters because the
2:10fight over the legacy of William F
2:12Buckley Jr is a fight over the meaning
2:14of conservatism that's that's why he's
2:17still so relevant uh you're right that
2:19this program is is clearly a you know a
2:23child a firing line although I don't
2:25know that your chairs Lean Back quite
2:27enough to contort oneself as he did I
2:30never got to meet the man he died in
2:322006 or 2007 I got to Yale in 2008 yeah
2:37uh though he and I share a profession we
2:40share a religion we share an alma mater
2:42we even share a priest the priest who
2:44married my wife and I and me uh was the
2:48priest who celebrated his funeral mass
2:49with what's his name father rutler in
2:51New York of course father rutler yeah
2:53sure who's a buckle ask figure in his
2:55own life of course yeah and uh so I've
2:58just you know admired them man for most
3:00of my life and I've read so many of his
3:02works and watched so much Firing Line
3:05and uh something I've noticed about the
3:07legacy of Buckley is that uh many of the
3:12self-proclaimed Buckley ites today uh
3:15would have clutch their Pearls at the
3:16man in his prime yeah you know we're
3:20told that by the you know official
3:22established media that William F Buckley
3:25Jr he was a throwback to that houseon
3:27era when conservatives were witty and uh
3:31Urbane but more than anything they were
3:33anod you know they played along and they
3:36lost and that was but good buckes word
3:38by the way an that's yes that's it's not
3:40quite ifitis but it's close and that
3:44just wasn't the man yeah you know
3:46William F Buckley Jr launched his first
3:48book as you mentioned God and man at
3:50Yale as an attack against academic
3:54freedom the subtitle was the
3:56superstitions of academic freedom he
3:58called it a hoax in there his next book
4:00was a defense of Joe McCarthy yeah
4:02McCarthy and his enemies he said in a
4:05more eloquent way than I will paraphrase
4:06that McCarthyism is a moral Crusade
4:09around which people of stern moral fiber
4:11can can rally his most famous television
4:13moment was when he was debating gor vdal
4:161968 yes at the DNC and Vidal had called
4:19him a Nazi probably a hundred times at
4:21that point and Buckley uh called him a
4:24queer and threatened to punch him in the
4:25face and he he regretted the Outburst
4:27because it cost him the debate but but
4:29he did double down on the substance of
4:31his attack so this was a a tough guy oh
4:34a fighter for sure he was a fighter he
4:36was a pugilist and uh so now you know
4:40he's this emblem of the conservative
4:42establishment but he had the very famous
4:44populist line he'd rather be governed by
4:46the first people in the Boston phone
4:47book than the faculty of Harvard College
4:49yes and so especially as we have debates
4:52over Free Speech academic freedom uh
4:56libertarianism versus conservatism the
4:58prospect of authoritarianism or whatever
5:02the meaning of William F Buckley is
5:05Central because uh if if the squishes as
5:09I like to call them can claim the legacy
5:11of Buckley then we all lay down our arms
5:13and we we lose but I I think the more
5:17appropriate interpretation of Buckley's
5:19Legacy is on the conservative side of
5:20things on the more traditionalist side
5:22of things uh those who care for a more
5:25robust set of Standards the enforcement
5:27of Standards one of my favorite Buckle
5:29isms is a phrase he used with Leo churn
5:30on Firing Line 1966 Leo churn
5:34said bill you and I we we want the same
5:37thing we want an open Society it's
5:40Central to all we hold dear and Buckley
5:42said uh no I don't I want Society to be
5:45considerably more closed actually he
5:47said I myself am an epistemological
5:50optimist an unfortunate phrase which
5:53means I think we can know things mhm we
5:56can come to certain conclusions and make
5:58certain exclusion
6:00and not to put too fine a point on it
6:01Buckley said I see no reason to protect
6:04the liberty of a Nazi or a communist uh
6:07and I think we need a lot more
6:09epistemological optimism on the right
6:11and in the country today we'll get back
6:13to it later in the conversation but that
6:14whole question of Liberty libertarianism
6:17the meaning of freedom Buckley coming
6:19out of I would say the Catholic Social
6:21teaching tradition uh which then
6:23stretches way back goes back to the
6:24medieval doctrines goes back to the
6:26fathers of the church and into the Bible
6:27itself and it's opposed to this sort of
6:30freewheeling libertarianism that Liberty
6:32means I do what I want no it means a
6:35kind of disciplining of Desire so as to
6:38make the achievement of the good
6:39possible yes you know that that would be
6:41John Paul II's sense of of Liberty and I
6:43think right Buckley was coming out of
6:45that and it it sits comfortably to a
6:49degree in the American context if it's
6:51properly read you know and the uh the
6:53founding fathers who insisted of course
6:55upon a moral structure to Freedom that's
6:59missing in a lot of the conversation
7:00today well there's a line from Lord
7:02Acton which sometimes goes around and
7:04Acton says summarizing the Catholic view
7:07of of Freedom he says Liberty is not the
7:09ability to do what we wish but the right
7:11to do what we ought what we ought yeah
7:13and and when I say that and John Paul
7:14echoed that very much John Paul II and
7:17by the way it's not just Lord Acton I I
7:19mentioned Lord Acton because he still
7:20has cred with the Libertarians but but
7:22it's not just Lord Acton and it's not
7:24just John Paul II and it's not just the
7:26founding fathers this was the
7:28understanding of Liberty going back to
7:30classical political philosophy up
7:32through the Christians up through Dante
7:34writes about this directly in monarchia
7:36up through denosa Cortez and the
7:38beginning of the uh counter
7:40Enlightenment and conservatism and up
7:42through the American tradition this was
7:44the understanding of Liberty if you look
7:46at the uh Rhode Island Charter 1666 I
7:50think it is New York state constitution
7:531777 both of those documents state that
7:57the citizens cannot abuse their Liberty
8:00to
8:00Lous uh you know the the founding
8:02fathers of the framers of the
8:04Constitution almost all of them wrote
8:06about this subject in Tak that for
8:08granted that would have just been in
8:10their in their U political unconscious
8:13that idea correct and so now really
8:17since the 1960s it's pretty recent we
8:19we've had this upending this notion that
8:21Liberty is totally disconnected not only
8:24from the moral order but from even
8:26tangible reality you know we a can have
8:29the freedom to Flap his wings and fly
8:31right and see I would trace the roots
8:33back because a lot of things that come
8:35up in the present day are are revivals
8:37of very old issues and this is the
8:39volunteerism of people like go back to
8:41dun scotus but especially William of aam
8:43yeah so in the late Middle Ages when
8:45ainus view is uh is threatened and this
8:48new view of Freedom as
8:51self-determination as sort of
8:53spontaneous self-determination yeah
8:55comes to the four that's not a clinus
8:57view at all of Freedom what we were
8:59talking about is is the aquinus
9:01tradition which is very ancient yeah but
9:03this new one had its roots back then but
9:06yes comes roaring out today for sure do
9:09you know in the famous um reagens BG
9:12address that got po Benedict in so much
9:13trouble I was just thinking of it when
9:14you were descri the point of that
9:16address it was not really to address
9:18Islam the point of that address was to
9:20battle voluntarism yes and to speak in
9:23favor of logos logo centrism when when
9:27we say Jesus is the logos but we're
9:29tying our freedom to that truth to the
9:32word and the danger of voluntarism in
9:34whatever form it takes and there are
9:36forms of it within Christianity um
9:38Benedict said that is very dicey
9:40business you know because now Freedom
9:42just becomes this sort of free willing
9:45self-defining quality furthermore any
9:48link that you and I might have is
9:50severed yes because you've got your
9:51private freedom I got my private Freedom
9:53you define yourself the way you want I
9:55do it the way I want and all we can do
9:58is tolerate each other and some vague
9:59way yes but any sense of like Community
10:02or common good or shared purpose all
10:06that's compromised or shared perception
10:08of the world no right no that's the
10:10thing if is when when truth is bracketed
10:12to that degree I can't even decide about
10:14my gender well then it it's um it's open
10:19season on a on a sort of dissolution of
10:21the body politic yes I think that's
10:24what's threatening us in many ways today
10:26you know you you mentioned that Pope
10:28Benedict got into so much trouble for
10:30that address probably the greatest
10:31address of the 21st century uh because
10:34he mentioned the Muslims uh but his
10:38reference to Islam there was to this
10:40medieval Islamic writer Ian Hassam who
10:43made this point he said you know Allah
10:44is totally Transcendent so is not
10:47connected to the logos uh and so Muslims
10:50are almost all voluntarists that was not
10:53always the case there was an open debate
10:55within Islam but they went they went
10:57voluntarist and uh i' love your point on
10:59William of aam because conservatives
11:01love to play this game which is when did
11:03when did the train go off the track when
11:05did the rot set in yes and to my mind
11:07the most popular answer unless we go all
11:09the way back to the Garden is is about
11:12William of aam nominalism and you know
11:15well no yes and if you want to see the
11:17Christian strain we're going to be
11:18controversial here because you know the
11:20Christian strain comes up through
11:21someone like Calvin who would have
11:23inherited very much of a nominalist uh
11:26epistemology yeah and you do have that
11:29Uber Sovereign God who seems to hover
11:33above the yes and the no above the good
11:35and the bad why are some PE people
11:37predestined for salvation some
11:39predestined to damnation well because
11:41God decided it was God's will that is a
11:44volunteerism that is will run a mu we're
11:47in acquaintance will and mind coincide
11:50because of God's simplicity so
11:54uh God can't will arbitrarily yes that
11:57famous question in the Suma when when
11:59Thomas asks can God sin it's a very
12:01interesting question because if you're
12:03voluntarist seems to me the answer would
12:05be well yeah sure heck I can sin
12:07whatever he wants to do and if I if I
12:08can sin God who's all power why can't
12:10God sin and aquinus famously says no God
12:13can't sin because God can't be out of
12:15step with his own nature and I know that
12:18sounds very Arcane in like medieval
12:20theology it's very relevant to the
12:22conversation today because our freedom
12:24is mimicking that voluntaristic freedom
12:27right and so sure I I can decide what
12:30truth is I'm not constrained by truth my
12:34freedom isn't directed by truth it
12:36determines truth yes and that opens up
12:39abysses as they say and I think that's
12:42the that is to my mind the greatest
12:44problem politically it's got
12:46philosophical and Theological Roots but
12:48it plays itself out on the streets today
12:51well to bring It full circle back to God
12:54and man at Yale Buckley in that book
12:56quotes a president of Yale who says look
12:59we obviously profess the Christian
13:01religion his own version of it at least
13:04and we obviously believe in God and but
13:06we don't want our educational
13:08institution to fall prey to an aid
13:11scholasticism yeah and uh I don't know
13:14about you I quite like the Scholastics I
13:16like the Scholastics I think they were a
13:18bit smarter and more perceptive than
13:20most of the supposed intellectuals today
13:23and and the point that that Yale Yale
13:25president was trying to make was
13:28ultimately a failed project and and it's
13:30it's the point that John Henry Newman
13:32makes in the idea of a university which
13:34is he invys against the idea that one
13:36could have a university without a chair
13:39of theology how can you do that because
13:41either you are saying that we can have
13:44no knowledge of God that this is not a
13:46real field of study or you are admitting
13:49you're not a university a university
13:50pretends to Universal knowledge and so
13:53what you're really implying even if you
13:55say you're a professing Christian if you
13:58push idea of the AC not the Academy of
14:01the University rather that uh ignores
14:04theology what you're really saying is I
14:06don't believe it all that much at Le at
14:08least I don't think we can really know
14:10anything about it yes but it also means
14:12something else will move into that
14:13central place Newman saw that nature
14:16pours a vacuum if you say well God's not
14:18in the center of the Enterprise because
14:20oh no we're just being tolerant so
14:21religion's over there somewhere in the
14:23circle of dis matter of private opinion
14:24or something right but then inevitably
14:27something else will move into that
14:28Central plan and it's easy enough to see
14:30it now a kind of scientistic materialism
14:33or maybe a psychologism or historicism
14:35or something something moves into the
14:37center well and where the chaplain might
14:39once have sat now you have the deputy
14:41assistant deans of Dei at all these
14:43universities right but you know what's
14:45interesting because these high
14:46philosophical ideas uh play themselves
14:49out so they're not um peripheral
14:53abstractions here they're very much at
14:55play in this conversation but you know
14:57you and I have both been um long time
14:59time critics of wokeism or call it a
15:01sort of popularization of critical
15:03theory call it political correctness um
15:06I do think we're at a something of an
15:08inflection point in the culture if 2020
15:10was sort of a high Watermark of of
15:13wokeism that something is is Shifting
15:15around and I want to get your thoughts
15:17on some of the roots of that because I
15:20trace a lot of it back to Marx um you
15:23know certainly behind critical theory if
15:25wokeism is popularized critical theory
15:27critical theory is deeply indebted to
15:29in the thesis on Foy Bach he has these
15:3211 famous little you know piy remarks
15:34the young marks makes number six is
15:38there is no human Essence yeah human
15:40Essence he says is The Ensemble of
15:42social relations y number 11 the last
15:45one is the most famous it says
15:48philosophers so far have only
15:49interpreted the world in different ways
15:50the point is to change it right well
15:53read those two things together I think
15:55you've got the foundations of wokeism um
15:58there is no human nature there is no
16:00human Essence it's simply a matter of of
16:03the always shifting social relations
16:05that we have what's the point of of
16:08theoretical speculation not just to
16:11contemplate is to change the world in
16:14accord with these everchanging you know
16:16social conditions um talk about that I
16:20mean I I do think Marx haunts that whole
16:22movement he does a a sper a spectre is
16:25haunting America and it's the Spectre of
16:27marks in our culture certainly that's
16:29true and and you can just trace the
16:32intellectual lineage directly back to
16:34mark that that's one of the things I try
16:35to do in my book speechless is to you
16:37you can just find the the people who
16:39really promote critical theory the
16:41Frankfurt School at Etc you know they
16:45they are explicitly Marxist Antonio
16:47gromi the Italian communist activist the
16:49author of the prison notebooks famously
16:51translated into English by Pete Budaj
16:53Jed's father uh shows you the state of
16:55our political classess that's right
16:57Notre Dame professor shows you the state
16:59of our Catholic universities too uh so
17:02you know you see Marx coming up through
17:05the culture in that way then you have
17:06the 1960s Herbert maruza who is himself
17:09a Marxist is the father of the new Left
17:12Rudy Deka over on the other side of the
17:14Atlantic major leader of the student
17:15movement and so you can really trace it
17:17a critical critical theory kimberl crena
17:20all of these Derek Bell are in fact the
17:23leaders of BLM called themselves
17:24marxists so Marx deserves a lot of
17:27credit here but marks didn't come from
17:30nowhere either yeah and and I know there
17:32are a lot of people supposedly on the
17:34right who who like to pit progressivism
17:38or leftism or against true liberalism
17:41you know we're the we're the great
17:42classical Goods but seems to me that
17:45when one exalts individual autonomy when
17:48one exalts private judgment above all
17:51else when one says that one when one
17:53claims the right to do whatever one
17:55wishes it's not a far leap to get to
17:58mark or to any of the other ideologies
18:00that that come out of that it seems to
18:02me liberalism remains a major problem
18:05and so when marks all Mark says is I'm
18:08going to exert the autonomy to conquer
18:10human nature and there is no there is no
18:13fixed human Essence it's just the
18:14product of social relations and I'm and
18:17religion is just part of that anyway and
18:19so we're going to recreate the world a
18:20new and we're going to get rid of
18:21philosophy because philosophy is bunk
18:23because I don't like it uh you know it's
18:25it's just a it's like a petulant little
18:27toddler just saying no Daddy I'll do
18:29whatever I well please um and and you
18:33you saw those petulant toddlers really
18:34conquer the culture in the middle of the
18:3620th century do you remember the movie
18:38um the shape of water came out several
18:40years ago yeah I saw that movie uh with
18:43with Father Steve was the CEO of w on
18:45fire and when the movie ended uh I
18:47turned him and said that's going to win
18:49the best picture because I thought it
18:51checked every box especially the title
18:53and I won't bore people with all the
18:54details of the movie but um the shape of
18:57water it means no shape except the shape
18:59we want to give it yeah it's the
19:01fluidity of reality now Marx gets it
19:04from Hegel in a way but I think Marx
19:06gives a very clear expression there is
19:08no fixed human nature yeah it's fluid it
19:11it's up to us to decide now look at the
19:13at the woke gender ideology today it's
19:15it's the same
19:18U assumption right that even my gender
19:21even my body is
19:22malleable you want to keep playing the
19:25the antisedan game go back to the
19:28ancient itics right yeah that the real
19:31me it's called The Soul or whatever the
19:33real me is buried in here someplace and
19:35the body is just there to be kind of
19:36manipulated or escape from or it's a
19:38it's a problem that it can has but
19:40perhaps perhaps even to escape from
19:42perhaps the body is not not even a tool
19:45but it's an evil to to be right thrown
19:47to the side I think that's reasserted
19:49itself as well um but these are you know
19:52interesting history of of philosophy
19:55ideas you know let's go back to politics
19:58for a minute uh um Franklin Roosevelt
20:00Harry S Truman Dwight Eisenhower John F
20:03Kennedy Lyndon Johnson Richard Nixon
20:05Ronald Reagan seems to me all would have
20:08believed in God they would have believed
20:09in a fixed human nature they would have
20:11believed in objective moral Norms they
20:13would have disagreed a lot about policy
20:14and strategy right do you think part of
20:17the reason our political conversations
20:19become so dysfunctional everyone
20:21complains about our divisiveness and all
20:22that is it's much much more now than
20:25just policy differences there are these
20:28fundament mental philosophical
20:29differences there are a lot of people
20:31who don't believe in God therefore don't
20:34believe in in objective moral value and
20:36don't believe in a fixed human nature
20:37right and as a result we have this
20:40really fundamental split you know the
20:43the existence of God can be known with
20:45certainty with human reason from the
20:47created world I'm Vatican one I'm not
20:49the first to note it yes Vatican 1
20:51states that and I think it's true uh
20:54however it it helps to have first
20:57principles that we all agree on on and
20:59in fact even beyond the usefulness of
21:01first principles there are first
21:02principles uh what CS Lewis would have
21:05called the Dow in the abolition of man
21:07there are things that we just actually
21:09have to begin with as premises in order
21:12to think in the same way we have in
21:13mathematics a equals a I can't prove
21:16that if a equals B then b equals a i
21:19there's no proof for that that's a
21:20that's an axiom of mathematics but you
21:23can't really do mathematics without
21:24those axioms well the same is true in
21:26any moral reasoning I guess I can't
21:29really prove that it's wrong to commit
21:32murder I know that it's true and I can
21:35think about morality as a result of
21:36those things I it's I guess it's
21:39difficult to prove that it's better to
21:40bake a pie for the Widow down the street
21:42than it is to kick a Little Orphan in
21:43the head I but I I know for a fact I
21:46can't think about morality without
21:48knowing those things and we can observe
21:49that these first principles what one
21:51would call the Dow or perhaps even the
21:53natural law uh they they exist
21:55everywhere in the world and they have
21:56for all of human history so that would
21:58be sign that perhaps there's something
21:59to it is that ipida ISM maybe it is I
22:02don't know no but that's a very
22:03interesting point you're bringing up
22:04because it's true in the epistemological
22:07area is true in the moral area you
22:09finally have to get down to something
22:11that is just a brute fact like the
22:14principle of non-contradiction yeah or
22:15in the moral order it would be for ainus
22:17do good and avoid evil you say well okay
22:20duh but that's the point it's a brute
22:23fact that you simply see you Intuit the
22:25truth of it um a freedom that would
22:28undermine even those and we've seen both
22:31haven't we we've seen a freedom run a
22:34muck that says well no I'm good and evil
22:35that's who knows it's up to the
22:37individual or even non-contradiction
22:39because the extreme woke uh folks have
22:42gone after mathematics yes they've gone
22:45after you know geometry as sort of
22:47patriarchal system or something well
22:50what's happened there is is you've
22:51undermined The Brute facts of both
22:54epistemology and morality welcome to
22:57chaos yeah right
22:58right and and so what they would now
23:01argue is that to insist upon the
23:05existence of God as knowable to insist
23:08upon the uh basic aspect of the natural
23:11law which is do good and avoid evil to
23:13insist upon the uh reality of biology
23:17yeah or the meaningfulness of biology is
23:20authoritarian right how dare who are you
23:22to say and uh there's really no arguing
23:25with that I don't you know I guess well
23:26I what am I I'm a citizen I guess is
23:28what I and I'll exercise my vote and my
23:30voice as best I can but at at at that
23:32point when we no longer have any shared
23:35uh perception of the world then we can't
23:38communicate the signs and symbols the
23:40words that we use to communicate don't
23:42necessarily mean anything as many of the
23:44postmodernists told us in the academy in
23:46the in the middle of the 20th century
23:48yeah uh so then politics ceases to be a
23:51matter of civil society and persuasion
23:54and it becomes a matter of people with
23:55clubs beating each other on the head and
23:57whoever has the biggest club and the
23:59most torque is going to win see what do
24:01you have in someone like n you know
24:03we're Beyond Good and Evil good and evil
24:04are are just uh tools used by powerful
24:07people to um impose their Wills on
24:10others um what do you have left the war
24:14of all against all right that's all you
24:15can't argue I can't argue and to see
24:19things my way um and so all I'm left
24:21with is a is a play of powerful wills
24:24and to my mind in 2020 in our country
24:27that's what broke out in a way the the
24:30basilis of this view that was in the
24:32University system broke out into the
24:35streets in that awful summer of 2020 I
24:37think um and it's still maybe the
24:40central political struggle we're going
24:42through right now and yet 2024 is
24:45different than 2020 something has
24:46shifted in the culture and this is
24:48encouraging so you know the other thing
24:50I've I've noticed is conservatives like
24:53to argue when did we go off the rails
24:54and they like to argue when the world is
24:56going to end is it going to be tomorrow
24:58is maybe a week from now so I I know I'm
25:01speaking out of character here when I
25:03think something is going right but
25:05what's going right now is people seem to
25:08reject the really ugly war of all
25:10against all racially tinged politics of
25:132020 they have rejected I think this
25:15this transgender ideology quite clearly
25:18you know at the very least when it comes
25:20to little children
25:22and I what I think the left would like
25:25to do right now is say okay all right
25:27fine we'll hold on off on transing the
25:29kids for a little bit uh please don't go
25:31any further but just as you point out
25:33ideas have their own logic and
25:35consequences follow from that logic I
25:37think there are consequences that follow
25:39from the backlash because if we say all
25:41right look it's wrong to castrate a
25:43little child uh why is it wrong well
25:46it's wrong because the little child
25:48can't consent and well but parents make
25:51decisions for kids all the time and it's
25:52wrong because a man can't really be a
25:55woman okay well if a man can't really be
25:57a then I guess we have to unwind
25:58transgender ideology not just for little
25:59kids but for everyone well wait why is
26:01transgender ideology wrong if a if a man
26:03can't really be a woman I guess that
26:05means there are differences between men
26:06and women well if there are real
26:08differences between men and women then
26:10men and women aren't practically the
26:11same then maybe we need to unwind that
26:13redefinition of marriage that we all
26:15well we didn't all do it it was actually
26:17just a a Justice on the Supreme Court
26:19writing romantic poetry instead of
26:20jurist prudence uh maybe we need to
26:22unwind that well if if we're unwinding
26:25that if if marriage you know a union
26:27between two men and two women is not the
26:28same as a man and a woman and maybe we
26:30need to unwind some of the the other
26:32aspects of the sexual revolution in our
26:33culture maybe we need to go all the way
26:35back to some of the excesses of feminism
26:37which say that a woman needs a man like
26:39a fish needs a bicycle maybe and maybe
26:41I'm just being a little too optimistic
26:43here
26:44maybe we just need to be normal again
26:47and do the things that statistically
26:50everyone has done for all of human
26:51history that have led to flourishing you
26:53know as you're talking I was reminded of
26:55something Cardinal George who was a
26:56mentor to me once said and it was about
26:59um the Supreme Court and marriage so the
27:03Supreme Court was making these moves
27:04about marriage and redefining it and so
27:06on and he said no no marriage belongs to
27:08the natural law that belongs to
27:10something that's far more ancient than
27:12any political arrangement we have in
27:14fact it's a pre-political reality the
27:16Supreme Court or the Congress or the
27:18presidency are dealing with sort of more
27:20practical applications based upon these
27:22moral principles the trouble is the
27:24government has invaded this space that's
27:27really preol
27:29um but see if that's lost all that's
27:31left is is the power of government right
27:34which which is a bearer of the will of
27:36the majority um that's a signal
27:38breakdown in the our political thinking
27:41well and the the inability to agree with
27:43one another on any even most basic topic
27:46is convenient for a government that
27:48would like to acrew more power to itself
27:50right if the people can't agree on basic
27:52things the government has to come in and
27:54and make a decision about it uh which
27:56the government is now doing in the wrong
27:58direction but it it it brings us right
28:02back to that question about Freedom
28:03which is okay well why don't two men
28:05have the right the right supposedly to
28:07get
28:08married why don't I have the right to
28:10Flap my wings and fly out of your
28:12studio did I do something wrong am I not
28:15into no it's because that's that's not
28:16how my arms work I don't but it has to
28:18be read now as an act of Oppression on
28:20someone's part you can't do it because
28:22someone's telling you you can't and
28:23oppressing you right but I you know I
28:25didn't I didn't make biology and I and
28:27even Beyond biology I actually I resend
28:31that that uh statement because I hate it
28:35when I hear conservatives refer to
28:37biological men and biological women it
28:40implies that there's some other kind of
28:42man or some that's the nism again that's
28:44the gnosticism so it's it's not merely
28:47bi biology plays a big role in in a lot
28:49of these arguments but it's the whole
28:51human person you know we're we're matter
28:53we're also Souls well here's something
28:55from acquaintance I've always loved he
28:57says
28:58the soul is in the body not as contained
29:01by it but rather as containing it it's
29:04very interesting observation so in Plato
29:07but also in dayart you find the idea of
29:09the soul is kind of it's in me somewhere
29:11it's in the body that's a gnostic
29:13understanding Y where for Quin is the
29:15soul is the form of the body and so it
29:17it's if you want the enera the octus
29:19that that contains the body the point is
29:21you can't divorce one from the other
29:24right you know you can't say oh the soul
29:25has to get away from that has to escape
29:27from it the the
29:30soulbody um Unity is who we are you know
29:34but again that's maybe we'll come back
29:36at the end but I I think we've got to
29:39take the offensive by we I mean people
29:41that think along these classical lines
29:43we've been play very defensive game
29:45haven't we yes kind of retreating and
29:47you know and I'll hang on to this bit of
29:49territory that phrase biological woman
29:52is is an example of being put on your
29:54heels you retreating a little bit you
29:56mentioned gromi you know was hugely
29:58influential and then there was Rudy
30:00tochki right who who gave us the famous
30:02Long March through the institutions um
30:05as the goal of of the kind of marxist
30:08program and I think it's very clear
30:10we've been seeing that rather plainly
30:12haven't we education and government and
30:15entertainment and all the various
30:17institutions that make up our society
30:19let's bring them all in line well I
30:22think it's time that we we reverse that
30:24and that we start a long march back
30:26through the institutions to to claim
30:29this I think much more vibrantly
30:32realistic and truthful account of who we
30:34are right now we have a lot to learn
30:36from gromi and someone like R duka who
30:39who popularized this phrase the Long
30:40March through the institutions we have a
30:42lot to learn because the early marxists
30:45were truly revolutionaries and like most
30:47revolutionaries they failed no one
30:49wanted their stupid prescriptions and
30:52gromi observed that because they had
30:55lost the common sense they had all these
30:58crazy theories for the common people and
31:00the Common People preferred their way of
31:01life to the crazy theories of the
31:03revolutionaries so they lost the common
31:05sense as I feel the left has lost in
31:07recent years saying that a man is a
31:09woman is a good example of of showing
31:11people you've lost the common sense uh
31:13but they were also impatient and the
31:16left seems to have become a little
31:17impatient but for most of the 20th
31:19century they had perhaps it was their
31:21only virtue but they had the virtue of
31:23patience in Spades they understood that
31:26by just installing people in the in the
31:28universities in government in the
31:30bureaucracy in the media playing a long
31:32game they could play a real
31:35multi-generation long game and we
31:37conservatives myself
31:39included we become impatient we want to
31:42just we want to win an election and then
31:44get everything we want and be done with
31:46it and go back to making money and
31:47having nice dinners with our family and
31:49not have to worry about it again and
31:51that that really is not going to work uh
31:53you you have to have incremental change
31:56you can't let the perfect get in the way
31:58of the good you need to take what you
31:59can get and you win by winning I
32:02remember in 2016 there were people on
32:04the right who did not like the
32:05Republican nominee for president there
32:07are many people and some of them voted
32:10against him because they said it's
32:11better to lose in the short term and
32:14then in four years or eight years or 16
32:17years I don't know at a certain point
32:18down the road trust me we're going to
32:21win and we're going to win better than
32:22if we won right now and it's like the
32:25weatherman the weatherman can't predict
32:26the weather tomorrow but is going to
32:28tell you the temperature on Earth 100
32:29years from now because of climate change
32:31uh these people are not they were they
32:33had made all the wrong predictions for
32:34the past 18 months but now they were
32:36going to tell you what's going to happen
32:37in eight years no you don't win by
32:39losing you win by winning the left
32:42showed us this for the past Century and
32:44a half even gradually and when you can
32:46and taking this part of the culture this
32:48part of the institution when you can yes
32:50yeah yes yeah let me ask you something
32:52else about Marx because I I I still see
32:55markx as haunting so much of the
32:56president conversation
32:58uh people on the left tend to hate
32:59binaries except for the binary of
33:01oppress or oppressed so coming up
33:04through people like Michelle Fuko and
33:05then the Frankfurt School and so on yeah
33:07a tendency to divide the world into
33:10Hammers and Nails right there's
33:11oppressors and there's oppressed and and
33:12you get assigned to one of those two
33:14categories well that is right out of the
33:16markx Playbook you know that you've got
33:19the oppressive capitalist and the
33:20oppressed worker or the Pressed
33:22proletariat and Marx wants to ferment
33:25the struggle he wants the conf
33:28because the conflict will lead he
33:29thought to the emergence eventually of
33:31pure communism so stirring up the
33:33tensions within a society isn't um a
33:37problem that's the purpose right yes you
33:39know markk called for the ruthless
33:40criticism of all that exists yeah and
33:43which is an important phrase that's all
33:44I want well and if if you find yourself
33:49on in the happy place of being oppressed
33:51today yeah means you're one of the good
33:53guys and right uh paradoxically you get
33:55the Privileges as a result of being
33:57oppressed
33:58watch out because you might find
34:00yourself in the role of the oppressor
34:02shortly thereafter and you think of the
34:04purges tables will turn the tables will
34:06turn and people will be purged because
34:09the the goal of it is really the
34:10ruthless criticism of all that exists
34:12and and criticism just
34:14withering pointless nihilistic criticism
34:18seems to have infected all of our
34:20thinking including on the right how many
34:21people on the right say we exalt
34:23critical thinking what about my friend
34:25yoram hone says what about constructive
34:27thinking whatever happened to that you
34:29know why is it that we we now even on
34:32the right we say we don't want to teach
34:34students what to think only how to think
34:37I said okay well look I you know I can't
34:39really know what to think about history
34:42if I don't know that the Battle of
34:43lantto did in fact happen in
34:451571 well look at the universities you
34:48know that many have you know put their
34:50finger on the universi is a place where
34:51a lot of this I would say distorted
34:54thinking found its way they were very
34:56interested in communicating what to
34:58think yes they weren't just training
35:00people in you know a logical method they
35:02had a very clear content to their
35:04teaching um how did that happen and what
35:08do we do you know that question of the
35:09universities I've wrestled with a lot um
35:12you can almost see it you know there's
35:14critical theory there's the Frankfurt
35:15School it was late 60s there was a
35:18famous conference at John's Hopkins yeah
35:21where they brought over I think Fuko was
35:23there maybe dareda too but a lot of the
35:25key players in that conversation came to
35:27our Shores for the first time late 60s
35:30and it sort of planted this way of
35:32thinking in the high University culture
35:35where it just stated for a long time as
35:37you suggest many decades even but during
35:40those decades Generations were coming to
35:42these universities and being trained you
35:44know I would still argue the summer of
35:462020 is when all that kind of came
35:48spilling out into the streets um but
35:51think about even even outside of Fuko or
35:53der dah yeah Someone Like A Herbert
35:55maruza yeah maruza who had been here we
35:58we in America took him in and then he
35:59proceeded to destroy our country so
36:01you're welcome uh but but maruza part of
36:04the reason that his plan worked and he
36:07gave birth to the new left is he was a
36:09pretty insightful guy his most infamous
36:11essay is called liberating tolerance
36:14repressive tolerance is the phrase that
36:16is has come out of it and he said in
36:19short you can't tolerate intolerance and
36:22so many on the right point to that and
36:23they say look how evil that is look how
36:25terrible this monster this ressor but
36:29he's kind of right you know I mean he's
36:31basically just talking about the law of
36:32non-contradiction isn't he you know and
36:34so yes we do need to have standards we
36:36do have need to have norms and and so
36:38many I fear have followed the many of
36:42the people you've just mentioned who are
36:44radical leftists who are subjectivists
36:46and relativists and extreme liberals and
36:49and even on the right now we we favor
36:52procedural Norms over substantive Goods
36:55we we say that well if if you ever want
36:58to do good and avoid evil why that makes
37:01you no different from the left well the
37:03only difference is the left wants to do
37:04evil and avoid good right that seems
37:06like a substantive difference to me
37:09what's the way forward there for the
37:10universities uh you know it's hard
37:13because you can change a university
37:14Department pretty quickly if you get you
37:17the key people there and then they train
37:18their doctoral students and they are in
37:20charge of hiring and firing that in
37:22pretty short order you can remake a
37:24department to be along you know one line
37:26of thinking isn't it true in study after
37:28study that in most universities what 90%
37:31or more of the faculty would vote uh
37:33Democratic much more yeah much more than
37:35you know um what is the path forward
37:38there to try to at least provide some
37:40balance in the universities well the
37:41governor of Florida has done a good job
37:43with the new was it the new school I
37:45think it's called H where he went in
37:49changed up the board a little bit the
37:51board changed up the curriculum the flow
37:53of information around the university and
37:55they seem to have done pretty well there
37:56brought in very serious people serious
37:58intellects uh but you know just remade
38:00it in a serer way uh now there are going
38:04to be some on the right who well we
38:05don't want the hand of big government to
38:07come in and you know heaven for fend we
38:10need the free Marketplace of ideas to
38:12generate this change in the University I
38:14say what free Marketplace of ideas what
38:17is that the point of pedagogy is to be a
38:19free Marketplace of ideas should should
38:20we allow a free Marketplace of ideas in
38:22third grade classrooms next to I guess
38:25we pretend that we do now by by
38:27indulging in any fantasy that a child
38:30might have but but even then it's
38:32teachers and administrators encouraging
38:34certain fantasies because education is
38:37an intrinsically coercive
38:39process we we don't like to say it it
38:42seems sort of naughty but it's true it's
38:43that freedom and Truth problem again we
38:45always come back to that it's one of the
38:46you know most ancient problems in in
38:48philosophy but we've so privileged the
38:50freedom side of it and we so question
38:52the truth side of it I mean I people
38:54like um Patrick Denine and others have
38:57even pointed to the founding of our
38:58country as a time when you know a
39:01certain loss of confidence in our
39:03ability to name the objectively good
39:06yeah where you know Jefferson's Pursuit
39:08of Happiness becomes the game rather
39:10than well what is real happiness and so
39:12what Thomas aquinus will spend you know
39:14pages and Pages articulating what real
39:16happiness is uh did even the founders to
39:19a degree lose confidence in our capacity
39:21to know that and then opted for well at
39:23least let's tolerate each other as we
39:25each pursue happiness in our own way way
39:28and I know that's a much you know
39:29debated issue because I think you're
39:31certainly right in suggesting at the
39:32same time the founders have a keen sense
39:35of virtue and so on but this is a my
39:37point is this an old issue of freedom
39:39and truth and Patrick is a brilliant
39:41political philosopher but one lesson he
39:44perhaps has neglected is that uh if one
39:47hopes to make some change in a country
39:49it's best to wrap oneself in the flag
39:51you know and not to make an enemy of the
39:53country and one can't do that you know I
39:55mean we have the country that we have
39:56and no no one lives in a perfect poity
39:59and The Men Who Built our country did a
40:01pretty bang up job I think most people
40:03would have to admit so I think it's
40:05probably more productive to focus on the
40:07good things and here's one good thing U
40:10the structure of our country when I look
40:12back in political philosophy where do I
40:15really see the uh clearest Echoes is it
40:19John Lock as we are told not really
40:22where you see it is it even montue maybe
40:24montue may be more than lock but I see
40:27it in St Thomas aquinus the day regno
40:30yes right I see it and in the Suma by
40:32the way yeah you know when he when he is
40:34describing the the ideal polity because
40:38there's this problem that goes back much
40:39further than St Thomas aquinus the cycle
40:41of regimes how do you escape the the
40:43decay of play andle talk about that the
40:45way the regimes tend to devolve yes and
40:48how do you do it well St Thomas's answer
40:50is you have a a kind of a mixed regime
40:52with a monarchical element an
40:54aristocratic element and a democratic
40:55element I look at the American con
40:57stitution especially as it was in the
40:5918th century it's degraded a little bit
41:01because of progressivism and the rest
41:03but but even still it's not too far off
41:07and we've we've uh done pretty well for
41:09ourselves it's a very interesting
41:10connection you make there and you know
41:12Thomas is my man and uh the day rno is
41:15the closest he came to writing A
41:17Treatise on political philosophy yeah
41:19you can find it in parts of the Summa
41:21but the day regno which he wrote as a
41:23special kind of gift um to a King uh
41:28will say look ideally monarchy is the
41:30best form of government because it's
41:31most like God's government of the
41:33universe it's one God who has one great
41:35mind that brings things together so he
41:37like well yeah sure sure but then ainus
41:40is realistic enough to know it's very
41:42hard to find this Godlike person and
41:44control him right so therefore as you
41:46say something like a mixed government
41:47that has three elements and I think you
41:50could trace a coinus to someone like
41:53Robert Beller because we're pretty clear
41:56I think Jefferson had bman in his
41:58library that he would have read him but
42:01the other one maybe more likely is uh
42:04hooker they always call him the
42:05judicious hooker you know a late 16th
42:08century figure in the Anglican uh
42:11philosophical World certainly all the
42:13founders would have read him and he has
42:16a clear connection to the medieval
42:19Scholastics um it's interesting because
42:21you mentioned earlier the Arid Schism
42:24that's a bit of um a kind of tired
42:27intellectual
42:28historiography largely from a Protestant
42:30provenance I would say you know we had
42:32to rid ourselves of this old you know
42:35decadent Schism to find this new
42:37biblical you know U approach and what
42:41they were reacting to understandably was
42:44a somewhat decadent form of the
42:46Scholastic movement yeah by the time of
42:48like Lutheran company it had become a
42:50sort of you know too much logic chopping
42:53and it like most systems they get tired
42:56and they turn in on themselves yeah but
42:57the great Scholastics benture andinus
43:00and so on has this wonderful vibrancy
43:02and they're the bearers of that
43:04tradition we've been talking about
43:06including you're right this political
43:08tradition of of mixed government and it
43:10it presents a problem for conservatives
43:12today which is I I think if I had if you
43:16forced me to use an adjective to
43:18describe my political views yeah you
43:20know uh obscure political monikers are
43:22the right-wing version of gender
43:24pronouns everyone has their own but I I
43:26guess I'd say probably I'm closest to a
43:28traditionalist but with with this
43:31exception uh someone like Michael
43:32oakshott writes that uh ideology is the
43:36formalized abridgment of the supposed
43:38substratum of rational truth contained
43:40in the tradition so he invys against
43:42ideology and he exalts tradition and I
43:45get it and I'm a big admirer of Edmund
43:47Burke and Edmund Burke writes
43:48beautifully about tradition and against
43:50the Hideous rationalism that followed
43:53the Enlightenment and chopped off a lot
43:54of heads in the French
43:55Revolution however
43:58reason is good too and reason properly
44:01used within a sound political order that
44:04has proper first principles can be a
44:07wonderful thing we can in fact know
44:10things and so the rationalism of
44:12modernity has been hideous and is not to
44:14be trusted the rationalism of the high
44:16Middle
44:17Ages deserves a searching second look oh
44:20yeah no question about that no question
44:22about it I wonder this question of
44:24founding again um I think there's a and
44:27that's why people come down on both
44:29sides of it there is a Hobs and locking
44:31and element and you can certainly see it
44:33in Jefferson you can see it to some
44:34degree in the founding documents but
44:36then there's this other tradition and
44:38they're both there and that's why we can
44:41one side will say Hey look it's all Hobs
44:42and no no look it's all aquinus you know
44:45no one wants to mention hooker or the
44:46actual conservative tradition but I've
44:49been in conversations with people who
44:50are like they super strong on how you
44:52know traditional the American founding
44:54is I said well okay I love Thomas Je but
44:57he's not quite Thomas aquinus you know
44:59but then the flip side of it oh it's all
45:01Hobs and lock and it's all you know
45:03modernism I think it's both but I I
45:05would say this tradition that we've been
45:07describing does win out in the in the
45:09founders that's what they're you know
45:11about well a little rule of thumb here
45:13would be if you took any of these men
45:15who were quite wise and better educated
45:18than most of us today and you
45:20transported them into 2024 and you said
45:23hey here's the meaning of marriage
45:24here's what our borders look like here's
45:26what we're doing children do you support
45:28this do you recognize this of course
45:30they would pull what little hair they
45:31had left they pull their wigs off no
45:34question about it yeah hey I want to go
45:37back uh we we have William F Buckley in
45:39common I also discovered we have the
45:40Cohen Brothers in in common I'm a big
45:43fan of the Cohen Brothers films I think
45:44they're they're the most maybe
45:46spiritually alert filmmakers wor are
45:48they secret Christians or something I
45:49don't know I they have a Jewish
45:51background obviously they're from
45:52Minnesota like another hero of mine Bob
45:54Dylan um another Christian too well yeah
45:57as far as we can tell he became a
45:59Christian certainly in the early 80s um
46:03but the movie hail Caesar which I think
46:05is is under the radar but was a great
46:07movie it's the greatest movie of the
46:09last quarter Century well I I'm a great
46:11devil T of Fargo and a serious man as
46:13well but I love man is another great one
46:16which ends with the voice coming from
46:18the Whirlwind I mean it's the Book of
46:19Job And there's all sorts of biblical
46:21stuff going on but in hail Caesar as I
46:23think you point out in the book um that
46:26marvelous the scene you know where bar
46:28Whitlock he's the kind of Airhead actor
46:30played by George cludy and he's taken in
46:33by a group of of Communists who
46:35infiltrated Hollywood and including
46:37maruza right isn't he they say Professor
46:39Mar this is I've never seen a movie
46:42where I I had a more radically different
46:44experience watching it than apparently
46:46everyone else perhaps other than you and
46:48my wife because we're watching it and
46:50everyone's just enjoying this Cohen
46:52Brothers film they're very mainstream
46:53and I said hold on you're telling me we
46:54have a movie here where the the good guy
46:57is an American capitalist right-winger
47:00the bad guys are a communist homosexual
47:05actors in Hollywood and and specifically
47:08Herbert maruza the father of the new
47:10left and the punchline of it is the
47:12studio EXA smacks George Clooney playing
47:15himself in the face and says go out
47:18there and be a star right am I the only
47:21one who's been watching this movie I no
47:24it was extraordinary because cloy was
47:26sort of like the typical superficial uh
47:29sophomoric Marxism you know laying out
47:32these principles he just learned from
47:33these wonderful professor marusa says
47:35right he does say marusa right he
47:38specifically named but then um what's Ed
47:42Eddie Eddie man manx is the name of the
47:45studio executive and he's just kind of
47:47glowering at him and finally just slaps
47:49him around you know but I thought that
47:51was a marvelous uh criticism not only of
47:54that time but of that whole way of of
47:56approaching things you know yes and you
47:58know really the the breakdown of
48:00Hollywood people trace it to all these
48:02different ideological what marks would
48:04call the super structure issues but here
48:08here perhaps I'm with marks a little bit
48:10I think that the problem lies more in
48:11the base in the substructure which is
48:14that the courts broke up the studio
48:15system you used to have a studio system
48:18where the movie industry was vertically
48:20integrated so the studios would hire
48:23actors they would have contracts they do
48:25X number of movies per year the Studios
48:27would distribute those movies they they
48:29just they ran it like a normal business
48:31and that was back when the movies were
48:33normal and the the industry was normal
48:35when that was all broken up uh then it
48:38became the the wild west but in all the
48:40worst ways and uh then the actors all
48:43became bizarre hippie drug addicts and
48:45you know the the the movies it was very
48:49difficult to make money anymore and the
48:50whole thing just really decayed quickly
48:53very few John wayes came about after
48:55that go back to to Marx for a second
48:58that that um 11th thesis on foyer boach
49:01you know the point is to change the
49:03world yeah ysph peeper who's been a kind
49:05of a philosophical hero of mine for a
49:07long time great 20th century toist yeah
49:10he said that thesis represents
49:13effectively the end of philosophy
49:15because Philosophy by its very nature is
49:18useless because like for Aristotle and
49:20Company that's the highest praise I
49:22could give something or someone you're
49:24useless when I was a philosophy student
49:26many years ago my professors told me
49:28that this is the most useless thing in
49:30the University because it's it's about a
49:33good in itself yes right the useful is
49:35subordinated to a good outside of itself
49:38um Philosophy by its very nature asks
49:40the questions about the true The Good
49:42The Beautiful why because it's good in
49:45itself to do that it's beautiful in
49:48itself to do that the contemplative act
49:52this is again ysf peeper is is the
49:54highest ACT and and the acquaintance
49:56says that too you know following
49:57Aristotle the highest ACT is the
49:59contemplative act and that's why this is
50:01Mary and Martha isn't it you know yeah
50:03the active life and the contemplative
50:05life right and the contemplative has the
50:06better part has is is a higher status So
50:09when you say oh no philosophers have so
50:12far only interpreted the world the point
50:13is to change it no you've thereby ended
50:16philosophy and you make a great Point
50:18too not only that yes Marx is declaring
50:21an end to philosophy but you've just
50:22made me think of it now which is that he
50:24is quite overtly subordinating a higher
50:27good to a lower good he is he is
50:29flipping the world upside down much of
50:32much of speechless was spent attacking
50:35the right more than the left which is
50:36kind of funny because I'm on the right
50:38and not on the left but that you know
50:40the my friends on the right sometimes
50:42they drive me crazy and it that is the
50:45point that that drives me perhaps the
50:47craziest which is when they'll say don't
50:49go to college anymore and I say okay I'm
50:52with you there are plenty of reasons not
50:53to go to college anymore they said don't
50:54go to college anymore because you're not
50:56learning anything useful right or only
50:59go to college if you're going to study
51:01business or something no then College
51:02isn't College anymore that's Newman
51:04right the problem with the colleges is
51:06not that they're no longer teaching
51:07anything useful the problem with the
51:09colleges is that they're no longer
51:10teaching anything useless right no
51:12precisely right they they've lost the
51:14communicating the art of contemplation
51:16and they become you know kind of engines
51:18for social change but again that's
51:21coming right up out of the Marxist thing
51:23yeah hey tell me so we're getting close
51:25to the end of our time tell me a bit
51:26about your we call it reversion to
51:29Catholicism so you you were raised a
51:30Catholic right and then sort of drifted
51:33away like many people in your generation
51:36came back what precipitated The Comeback
51:38I'm just curious like what what started
51:40the journey back I fell out at my
51:44confirmation and your confirmation which
51:46is typical now it's about the age people
51:48disaffiliate it was I most of the blame
51:52goes to me because I was a punk kid who
51:54thought he was smarter than he was
51:56though at the time this would have been
51:572003 the new atheists were rising up you
52:00know with their clever but ultimately I
52:03think shallow arguments but you know
52:05Chris Hitchens had a funny voice and he
52:07made some funny comments right so he he
52:09appealed to uh the hubris of teenage
52:12boys there was also the you know the
52:15scandals in the church and there was
52:17also a very weak catechism uh the felt
52:19banners and the sappy ridiculous 70s
52:22Sims and you know and and I would say uh
52:26lurgical abuses that followed for half a
52:29century that that were really bad uh I I
52:33remember when I I was in Italy during
52:36college I I came to the conclusion that
52:38God exists because a friend of mine
52:41randomly assigned providentially
52:43assigned roommate who was baptized
52:45Catholic raised mega church Protestant
52:47fell away a little bit like me he
52:49presented me with Alvin plantinga's
52:51modal ontological based on St an yeah
52:55yeah yeah but planting version of it it
52:57was planting his version modal logic
52:58which I don't even find all that
53:00compelling anymore but I find it uh
53:02Charming in any case and I I find St
53:04Thomas's arguments probably a little
53:06stronger he didn't like the ontological
53:07arguments he did not he explicitly
53:09rejected it um and my confirmation Saint
53:11coincidentally providentially was Thomas
53:14did I pick it because Thomas doubts did
53:15I pick it because Thomas aquinus was
53:17smart maybe Thomas means twins so maybe
53:20it's both uh but I came back in and I I
53:23did experience after sor pontificum I
53:27experienced a traditional Latin Mass the
53:29extraordinary form and I had no idea
53:31what to do I was I received the
53:33Eucharist not in a state of grace I
53:35didn't hadn't been to confession in 10
53:37years or something and I I I had no idea
53:41what was going on I didn't I I was
53:43taught never to receive the Eucharist on
53:45the tongue or never kneeling I was
53:47taught you receive in the hand and so I
53:48just had no idea and regardless of one's
53:51thoughts on the Liturgy it is kind of
53:54crazy that uh a a young person
53:57catechized in the Catholic Church would
53:59not have any idea about the mass that
54:02had formed statistically what 99% of the
54:05Saints or something was crazy and uh but
54:08that attracted me as well CS Lewis GK
54:11Chesterton you began reading your way I
54:13read my way eventually you know I was
54:15real thickheaded So eventually I said
54:17maybe I should read the Bible you know
54:19I've been reading all these other guys
54:20for 5 years I actually read the Bible
54:22and read the Bible that U really struck
54:25me I mean that was this was now the
54:27beginning of new did you read it
54:28straight through or how did you read the
54:29Bible no I I've done uh I think they
54:32call it Bible in 25 years or maybe I've
54:34done 25 25 Bibles in a year I be so I've
54:37read Genesis a million times but I you
54:39know I'd pet her off a little bit and I
54:42I just Dove right in to the gospels
54:46because I said look I accept that God
54:48exists so now I have to Grapple with the
54:50question of whether our Lord is who he
54:52says he is and I guess good place to go
54:54for that is the gospels and they really
54:56jump out at you I I spoke uh once with
55:00the comedian nor McDonald yeah and the
55:03great nor McDonald the great nor
55:04McDonald and he and I had a very long
55:05correspondence for a period of weeks
55:07every night we would write each other
55:09these uh essays basically and he said
55:12something to me I don't know that I've
55:13ever mentioned this publicly but he said
55:16to me we're talking about religion a lot
55:18he said you know the thing Michael I
55:20thing about the Bible is I've just
55:22always known it's true I've just always
55:24you know me I've always I've just It
55:26just strikes me as true and I've always
55:28known that I've never really had any
55:29doubt whatsoever and that that was my
55:31experience of of reading the gospels
55:33again then but you know I was reading
55:35Protestants I was listening to certain
55:37Protestant pastors as well yeah and uh I
55:42I then had what C Lewis would describe
55:44as numinous experience you know finally
55:46more religious experience and I reverted
55:49it coincided with Father rutler books in
55:51church and I was in New York at the time
55:53and all of these things kind of came
55:55together but then fast forward a little
55:57bit in I I did discover the the
55:59traditional Latin mass and it it had a
56:02big big effect on me and I it even made
56:04me wonder had had this Mass remained
56:08would I have fallen away yeah there's a
56:10lot I mean you're raas there it's always
56:12fasinating to me how people make the
56:13journey back and that an argument had
56:16something to do with it because that was
56:16true in my case I was never not a
56:19Catholic I'm born and raised a Catholic
56:20but when I was a young kid in high
56:21school it was a quaintance it was one of
56:23the arguments from motion that just I I
56:26never thought about God which is his
56:28it's his first the first and more
56:29manifest way he says uh it opened the
56:33door anyway you know that I went through
56:35so for you uh the ontological argument
56:38and right planting a famously revives it
56:40you know using that that modal approach
56:42William Lane Craig who's been I think
56:45one of the best in Christians engaging
56:48the new atheist is a great devil T that
56:50you know but also liturgically I mean I
56:52get it I came of age at the time of a
56:54lot of lurgical
56:56craziness people it's like the econic
56:58clasts of old and of new they say look
57:01we need to get rid of all these images
57:03and all these statues these recs and
57:05yeah but why did they do it they said
57:07because this is getting in the way of my
57:10direct and you know solm prayer to
57:13God well how is that because you know
57:15Catholic yeah right that's not Catholic
57:17and if you if you get rid of all the
57:18images in the room and you get rid of
57:20all the statues and you just close your
57:22eyes guess what there's still an image
57:25there produce your mind well prod we're
57:27human beings we communicate in symbols
57:29it's inevitable no quite right and and
57:31there I've said this there are certain
57:33moments of iconicism in our tradition go
57:35way back to the you know 8th century
57:36when the controversy first breaks out
57:38and John of Damascus has to say you know
57:40no to iconic clasm the second one was
57:43after the Reformation when you see a lot
57:46of churches you know desecrated in
57:48Europe and the third one frankly was the
57:50time after Vatican 2 yeah here I go back
57:53to I don't know if you know the name
57:54Malcolm Miller um still alive um gave
57:58tours for decades at chart Cathedral
58:00Englishman who went there as a young man
58:02to do his master's research and never
58:04left he just lives in chart and gave
58:06tours English anyway years ago I heard
58:09him lecture and he said um look I
58:12believe in the principal eclesia sea
58:13reformanda right the church must always
58:15be reformed and we must always be open
58:17to you know Renovations when necessary
58:20but he said here's the clearest sign
58:24that a Reformation is gone off the rail
58:26when people start destroying beautiful
58:28things and I remember thinking yes
58:31that's not a bad principle yes right and
58:34I think that happened after Vatican 2
58:36for sure people started destroying
58:37beautiful things because you know
58:38Chesterton has that point on a fence
58:40post yeah and not only not only uh
58:42chesterton's fence don't tear it down
58:44until you know what it's for but the
58:45keeping it white you me keep keeping it
58:47white if you leave the white fence post
58:48standing out in the field you come back
58:515 years later it's not it's going to be
58:52black in order to keep it white you have
58:54to repaint it you have to work on
58:56principle of SE reformanda to keep it
58:58the way it it should be right you see we
59:00have this I think a fetishism about
59:02about time in some way it's like you
59:04know newer is better yeah well sometimes
59:07yeah in some ways it is the relevant
59:10question is always it's good bad not old
59:13new yes you know not uh what's trending
59:16and what's not what's medieval what's
59:18modern who cares I don't care about that
59:20is it right or wrong is it good or bad
59:23you know another Chester in line if
59:24you're on the wrong road the best way to
59:27start going in the right direction is to
59:29go backwards as fast as you can you know
59:32because again he had his priorities
59:33straight what matters is getting where I
59:35want to go and I'm skeptical of social
59:38science as a general rule Harvey
59:39Mansfield the great Harvard Professor he
59:42he said look I don't believe in social
59:44science but I'll quote it when it serves
59:45my purposes and I feel similarly and so
59:49it would seem to me especially as as our
59:51culture is now the philosophers have
59:53been exiled and the social scientists
59:54and the engineers have been
59:56exalted okay well how have things been
59:59going you know let's check in on
1:00:01self-reported happiness we have multiple
1:00:04major studies on that people seem to be
1:00:06less happy women in particular actually
1:00:08seem to be let's look at prescriptions
1:00:10of depression pills skyrocketing that's
1:00:12not a sign of things getting better uh
1:00:14young kids especially with especially
1:00:16among young kids during 2020 to 2022
1:00:18suicidal ideation depression jumped over
1:00:21100% yeah uh let's look let's look at
1:00:24people getting married let's look at
1:00:25people having babies we haven't had a a
1:00:27replacement rate uh birth rate for 50
1:00:30years okay these would be signs that
1:00:33something has gone wrong and so uh fine
1:00:36we'll use the social scientists but
1:00:38let's at least accept your own
1:00:39conclusions and maybe following
1:00:42Chesterton maybe we need to turn around
1:00:44on that road what matters is not you
1:00:47know am I going forward is am I going
1:00:49toward the truth you know but again the
1:00:52fetishism of of time or of progress I'm
1:00:54I'm a progressive I'm moving forward
1:00:57yeah but where's if the good is back
1:00:59there you don't want to be moving
1:01:00forward you're getting further away no
1:01:03so and let's end on that that hopeful
1:01:05note because I think it it is an
1:01:07inflection point in the culture
1:01:08something is Shifting and not just at
1:01:10the political level but the cultural
1:01:13level um give me your your best sign of
1:01:15Hope right now in our culture for St
1:01:19Thomas following Aristotle you know
1:01:20virtue is a a mean between extremes yeah
1:01:25and uh
1:01:26so uh you know there's one extreme in
1:01:29politics which is this kind of
1:01:31volunteerism that as we were discussing
1:01:33that it's all just about constant
1:01:35activism and cudgeling the other guy in
1:01:37the head there's there's another extreme
1:01:39that Christians are sometimes liable to
1:01:40fall into which is a political quietism
1:01:43oh well it'll all work out in the end I
1:01:44know how the story ends so I have no
1:01:46role here well hold on certain
1:01:48Protestants might believe that Catholics
1:01:50don't believe that we believe we
1:01:51cooperate with God's grace and we you
1:01:53know we uh like to do good and avoid
1:01:55evil so okay you no it's no political
1:01:57quietism you have certain
1:01:58responsibilities depending on your
1:01:59regime you have may have more or fewer
1:02:01responsibilities and we ostensibly have
1:02:03a self-government so you know do with
1:02:05that what you will uh people seem to
1:02:08have come back to a a mean right now
1:02:13doesn't mean we're not going to swing
1:02:15too much I I'm not talking about left
1:02:17and right I'm talking about other you
1:02:18know that that that axis it comes from
1:02:22the French Revolution you know it's the
1:02:24atheists and the beheaders of monarchs
1:02:25on one side and the Catholics and the
1:02:27monarchists on the other it's not
1:02:28applicable to everything we have all
1:02:29sorts of crazy extremes we fall into but
1:02:32right now we seem to have recovered a
1:02:35sense of the common sense that is really
1:02:38common sensical you know we people uh
1:02:41seem to be more inclined toward pursuing
1:02:43truth that might be knowable putting
1:02:45limits on the uh excesses of individual
1:02:48autonomy they just kind of want to be
1:02:50normal again that's across demographics
1:02:53that's even in unexpected quarters and
1:02:56so great I'll I'll take that and it
1:02:59doesn't the culture is still has all all
1:03:02sorts of problems um but uh this would
1:03:05seem to be an opportunity for us and so
1:03:08it seems to me this would be a good time
1:03:09to push forward put your foot on that
1:03:12pedal no right and not in a in a spirit
1:03:14of Cruelty but I I think we should go on
1:03:17this long march through the institutions
1:03:19yes I think we should reverse the
1:03:21momentum and not just um cling to the
1:03:24little bit of territory we have left but
1:03:26we should go on the March you know that
1:03:28that line from um the Lord into St Peter
1:03:31that the the Gates of Hell will not
1:03:33Prevail against you for some reason I I
1:03:36always misread that as somehow well
1:03:38hell's coming after us and but we'll
1:03:40always be able no no it's the contrary
1:03:42the gates are the weakest point of your
1:03:43enemy's City and the gates don't move
1:03:46well you and they're they're you're
1:03:48going to break through the gates they're
1:03:50not going to Prevail against you in
1:03:51other words this is a church on the
1:03:52March this is a church that is is trying
1:03:55to bring the word of God to the whole
1:03:57world so we shouldn't just acques you
1:04:00know into the little place that we have
1:04:02we we should go on a March a friend of
1:04:04mine once said that there are too many
1:04:06pacifists in the church militant you
1:04:07know we we have an a duty in this world
1:04:09we're called to do things our Lord
1:04:11doesn't say just sit around and do eat
1:04:13some fish he says go out there feed my
1:04:16sheep you will be Fishers of Men
1:04:18Proclaim to all the nations yes and so
1:04:21we have that opportunity and we don't we
1:04:23don't always have the same degree of
1:04:24opportunity I think this is is a point
1:04:26that people really need to take away and
1:04:27take to heart it's sort of like playing
1:04:29Blackjack if you do the same thing all
1:04:31the time in blackjack you're going to
1:04:32lose all your money you you have to know
1:04:35when to double down you have to know
1:04:37when to split you have to know when to
1:04:39seize opportunities that don't come
1:04:41around all the time I think this would
1:04:43be a great opportunity great moment of
1:04:45opportunity that I haven't seen in my
1:04:46lifetime for conservatives for
1:04:49Christians for normal people who don't
1:04:51know what to call themselves but know
1:04:53they don't want what we've been living
1:04:54in this this is the time and uh so while
1:04:58our opponents are
1:04:59weak for our good and ultimately for
1:05:02their good uh and for the common good
1:05:04which is a concept that we might even
1:05:05consider Reviving Let's Go full steam
1:05:08ahead on that hopeful note we'll bring
1:05:10things to a close Michael wonderful
1:05:12being with you today Bishop Baron thank
1:05:14you so much for having me all right God
1:05:15bless you
1:05:22[Music]

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