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Big Tech Is Facing Lawsuits — Could You or Your Family Qualify? | Anthony Johnson — Transcript

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0:00Welcome to Mindful podcast. I'm your
0:02host Danny Kaufman.
0:03>> And this is Michael Graziano.
0:05>> And today we've got the real pleasure of
0:07having Anthony Johnson with us, AJ. He
0:10is a super lawyer who is taking on Big
0:13Tech and really bring the power back to
0:15the people. AJ, thank you so much for
0:17joining us.
0:18>> Good to have me.
0:19>> Yeah, so you know, we're all friends
0:21here and we've known you for the last,
0:23you know, couple of years, but we're
0:24curious to hear, you know, tell us a bit
0:26about your backstory. Like how did you
0:27get into both this role as, you know,
0:30the super lawyer that you are and how
0:31did you get into the role of really kind
0:33of holding these companies accountable?
0:35>> Yeah, so I originally have a background
0:38in computers. I was a computer engineer.
0:40Um, and then I got into finance for a
0:41little bit. I was a stockbroker. And
0:42then uh, got into law school and it was
0:46interesting cuz our the law the law
0:48field was just so archaic. I mean, there
0:49was like banker boxes and triplicate
0:51copies and whatnot. And and so I decided
0:54that I could use my tech skills to
0:55improve the client experience.
0:58Um, I was doing that for a little bit. I
1:00mean, I did I got named America's
1:01techkiest lawyer, which was baffling cuz
1:02it was like taking my firm to the cloud.
1:04Like it's just not even that techy.
1:07Um, I was like, yeah, Dropbox is really
1:08innovative. But it just told me like the
1:10the space needed it. And so then I ended
1:13up getting into uh, Stryker Orthopaedics
1:16had a lot of litigation with medical
1:18devices and um, I just saw a place that
1:22I could add a lot of value because it's
1:24against these huge corporations that
1:25have um, put profits over people. And I
1:29was like, I'm very good at
1:30getting the the word out there, using
1:32technology to streamline, um, you know,
1:35educating clients and then getting them
1:37with the right lawyers. And I realized
1:38that I wasn't the guy to be in court at
1:40the time. I'd been in court a little
1:41bit, um, but there's always some guy in
1:43the country that I thought was better.
1:44And I felt like it was better to help
1:46clients find that right person for their
1:48case.
1:49And uh, that's how I kind of got into
1:50mass torts and class actions and uh,
1:53really taking on the biggest
1:54pharmaceutical companies, tech
1:55companies, oil companies,
1:58uh, in the world.
1:59>> So I you have I mean, we know each other
2:01for a couple years. I'm amazed at your
2:02creativity and your marketing side, but
2:04also your legal, technical,
2:06administrative side. It's it's truly
2:08unique. I've never met anyone quite like
2:11it. How would you say you you
2:13discovered that balance and really
2:15tapped into it?
2:17>> Yeah, well, there's a lot of great trial
2:19lawyers. Um, we're working with a few
2:22now on this new litigation. Um,
2:24what was lacking was the infrastructure
2:27to really make this an efficient market.
2:30Um, and what I say by what I mean by
2:31that is like there weren't great
2:33customer service call centers. There
2:35weren't great uh, advertisers or
2:37marketing people or brand you know,
2:39specialists. Um, and there wasn't just
2:42the you know, these things happen, these
2:43events that hurt a lot of people and
2:46trying to get that information out to
2:47the people, you know, in time to make
2:48them aware that they have a claim um,
2:51and then get them with the right person.
2:52It just it wasn't happening at at the
2:54level I wanted it to. So, you know, I
2:56ended up building call centers, building
2:57marketing companies, uh, data and
2:59software companies to help uh,
3:02you know, create some rails, some
3:03railroad, you know, tracks for the law
3:05firms to to represent more clients and
3:08and have more justice to for
3:09individuals.
3:10>> That's that's incredible. I love the
3:11idea of kind of thinking like outside of
3:13the box and how you create the
3:14infrastructure to support these kind of
3:15cases. So, tell us uh, before we dive
3:17into your current case, what's the
3:19largest case you've ever closed? Which
3:21largest settlement or largest case
3:23you've ever led or worked on?
3:24>> Um,
3:26well, I was very involved with uh, the
3:29Roundup litigation. Uh, Roundup is a you
3:31know, they spray it on crops.
3:33Um, it's a pesticide and it was causing
3:36non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and we had about
3:385,000 clients there.
3:40Um, that's already gone through
3:41resolution, so that was a probably the
3:43largest full case I did which lasted
3:45years, maybe five or six years. Um, we
3:48have a current litigation against video
3:49game companies where we have over
3:50100,000 clients. Um, so you know, when
3:53we're you know, we we've represented a
3:55lot of people.
3:57>> How did you get into sticking it to the
4:00the big guys? Cuz I know there's a bit
4:02of intimidation factor with these
4:03companies. They have uh, seemingly
4:06endless uh, pockets. They have some of
4:08the best law firms in the world. They
4:10seem to be stacked up against the little
4:13guys. And so, how did you really develop
4:15that passion and and and find that the
4:18courage to go up against them and and
4:19how's that going?
4:21>> So, at first I just I
4:23it fell in my lap. There was a guy next
4:24to me that was a IT head hunter, young
4:26guy, and he had a medical device that
4:28was failing, and he got a recall letter.
4:30He's like, "How do you recall something
4:32that's in my hip, you know?" So, it was
4:34a it was a big deal.
4:36Um, and then I got curious and started
4:37learning a lot about it and calling
4:38other law firms.
4:39Um, but I think what really motivated me
4:41was uh, my grandfather actually had
4:44taken one of these drugs.
4:45And uh, it was against uh, Actos was the
4:48lawsuit, and he got pancreatic cancer.
4:51And so, it was interesting just having a
4:53a family member come to you and say,
4:54"Hey, you're you're doing this. Like,
4:55how how can you help?" And so, really
4:57just going back into like,
4:59"What am I doing?" I'm trying to find
5:01the best help for, you know, real
5:03people. And so, getting to experience
5:05that on a personal level was was
5:06definitely motivating, cuz I got to see
5:08that, you know, we got him the best
5:09help. We got him the best outcome.
5:11Um, it really took care of him in his
5:12final days, and and also his his uh, my
5:16grandmother at the time after he had
5:17passed. And uh, it just made me realize
5:19we are doing something that's really
5:21good for society, and then really
5:24really lawyers are the balancing act to
5:25try to help help level the playing field
5:26to people doing
5:28bad
5:29>> Yeah, and then how do you go about
5:30selecting which
5:32you know, cases to go after?
5:36>> Um, yeah, for me I think it's I've got
5:39to believe in it, you know, it's it's
5:40one of those things that
5:42for me to personally be involved, I've
5:43got to believe it's true. Like, and
5:45people joke about, you know, us suing
5:47everybody and you know, ambulance
5:48chasers and all that, but but the
5:49reality is like, to sue a corporation or
5:51medical company or tech company, it's
5:53expensive, it's hard, you have to have
5:55research and proof.
5:57Um, if there's a lawsuit, it's not taken
5:59lightly. There's a multi-million dollar
6:01commitment just on cost.
6:02Um,
6:03and so, for me it's like I have to
6:04believe in in the truth of it and also
6:06how can I help, you know? So, because of
6:08my background in finance and tech, you
6:09know, I tend to get involved in some of
6:11the technology lawsuits that that are
6:12out there.
6:13>> Yeah, and and
6:15I don't know, I mean, now let's talk
6:16about your current uh case or cases for
6:19whatever you can share.
6:20People are really getting sick online
6:23with social media. The anxiety, suicide
6:25rates, suicide ideation, stress, like it
6:28the the stats are alarming.
6:30Um,
6:31what are you doing about it and how's
6:34that going?
6:35>> Um, so the current litigation that we
6:37are really involved in is the meta
6:39litigation. Um, it also involves
6:41YouTube, Snapchat, TikTok. Um, and
6:45essentially
6:47there's this protection that platforms
6:49have, uh it's called 230, and it allows
6:52people to create content and put it on
6:53your platform and you're not liable for
6:55it. It's like a first amendment right.
6:57And so they tried to go down that path,
6:59uh lawyers lost down that path.
7:01And then they really realized that this
7:02isn't about first amendment rights or
7:04or, you know, the content itself, it's
7:05about the product. The actual social
7:07media product is a is an actual product
7:10instead of a um you know, an a
7:12negligence claim. And they're saying
7:13that the product was designed in a way
7:15that's defective.
7:16Um, and there are things that are in the
7:20design that make it very addictive for
7:22children and it's intentionally designed
7:23that way. Um, there's things called
7:26intermittent variable reward systems.
7:28And uh very simply put, it's likes and
7:30notifications, right? You have your
7:32algorithmic feed where they're they're
7:33throwing cat pictures or whatever in the
7:35thing to make you really get that
7:36dopamine hit and then they let you hit
7:38see the likes and notifications in a way
7:40that maximizes addiction. Um, and they
7:43know that the younger you are, the more
7:46likely you're going to be on this
7:46platform forever. Because addictive
7:49behavior, there's a lot of neuroscience
7:50that that says that you get that
7:52addictive behavior before the age of 15.
7:54And so after 15 it's a lot harder. And
7:56so they started actually optimizing to
7:58addict younger and younger users of the
8:00platform.
8:01>> And you
8:02you know, I remember when uh The Social
8:04Dilemma came out years ago uh by Tristan
8:07Harris and others working in that area
8:08at the time, and it show it shined a
8:10really bright light on kind of some of
8:12these issues around the the really dark
8:14side of social media and the negative
8:15impact it's having. I'm curious from
8:17your perspective, why do you feel like
8:18these companies have not shifted their
8:21approaches yet? Like knowing like they
8:22they there's obviously so much evidence
8:24now that shows the harmful impact of
8:26social media, especially on children.
8:28What why do you think that they haven't
8:29actually made a shift in their behavior
8:31yet?
8:32>> Yeah, I mean that's a good reference. I
8:33remember there's a point in the movie
8:34where he talks about Zuck wanting three
8:36dials, and it was make more money,
8:39um get more users, and more time on
8:40site. And what you don't notice is a
8:43dial that says be healthy for you kids.
8:45>> Mhm.
8:46>> You [clears throat] know that.
8:47So you're sitting there and you're
8:48cranking the revenue number, you're
8:49cranking the time on site, like get them
8:51addicted, keep them on the site. Um or
8:53get more users or make more money. Like
8:54those are the dials. And so they don't
8:57do it because it doesn't make you more
8:58money to do that. And I think that their
9:01whole advertising model is like how do
9:02you get people to behave in a way where
9:05you can actually make them um
9:08you know,
9:08buy something or do something next. And
9:10like we've seen with the elections,
9:12polarization works the best. Um you
9:14know, a lot of the negative impact on
9:16health is what actually works the best
9:17on certainty when it comes to
9:19advertising. And so in the end it's
9:20about money.
9:22>> And return on investments and maximizing
9:24shareholder return. Ironically, a lot of
9:27these executives don't let their kids on
9:29social media cuz they know what's
9:30happening on the back end, right? Um so
9:33my question is
9:35Look, there's two ways to look at the
9:37worlds. There's a let's change the world
9:40and let's find world peace and all unite
9:42hands and Kumbaya together. And then
9:44there's taking the realistic approach,
9:46saying look, this is happening. How
9:49do we
9:50play within the forces of nature and the
9:53forces of capitalism? And how do we And
9:56how do we um find a solution? So what's
9:59what's your path for that?
10:01>> Yeah, so it's it's been interesting
10:02because there's a lot of issues with the
10:05capitalist market, right? So you're
10:07you're trying to make money, and then
10:08innovation happens, but also shortcuts
10:10happen and you miss things.
10:12Um in our world, we have a very good
10:14judicial system, you know, so the
10:16counterbalance for people against
10:18corporations is is the legal system, you
10:20know, and so what's been happening
10:22recently is there's been this
10:24god-like technology that's booming and
10:26then the court systems are trying to
10:27keep up. And so what has then happened
10:29is that the like Wall Street guys and
10:31the money guys are coming and saying,
10:32"Hey, let us help, you know, maybe fund
10:34some of this this growth in in legal
10:36claims and trying to protect
10:37individuals." And so it's interesting
10:39that capitalism may be the answer for
10:41capitalism.
10:42>> That's right.
10:42>> Um it's pretty fascinating.
10:44>> Yep.
10:44>> And so yeah, so I think what what
10:46happens in these litigations though to
10:47actually get involved like say the metal
10:49litigation,
10:50um individuals will file a case, they'll
10:52go to court, you know, they'll set some
10:53precedent, you know, in the courtroom.
10:55Um and then once that happens, other
10:58people become aware this is an issue
10:59that needs to, you know, represent more
11:01individuals. Um it's not like an AT&T
11:04fee where, you know, one guy goes and he
11:05represents everybody and you make three
11:07bucks or whatever. Um this is it's
11:09called a mass tort uh multi-district
11:10litigation.
11:12Um each individual client is injured in
11:14a very specific way. So each person has
11:16to have their own lawyer. Um and it's
11:18the damages are significant. I mean,
11:19it's it's suicide attempts, suicide
11:21completions, it's it's body dysmorphia,
11:24it's self-harm. I mean, it's a lot of
11:25real serious injuries.
11:27Um and what happens, they all start
11:28filing these lawsuits and there's
11:30there's many many many of them. So now
11:31there's thousands of them. Um there
11:33probably be tens of thousands, maybe
11:36hundreds of thousands at this level at
11:37this rate. Um and they consolidate them
11:40and they kind of group together to try
11:42to figure it out and they start doing
11:43some trials.
11:44Um one just happened a few months ago in
11:47LA where they settled for $6 million. Um
11:51Snapchat and uh TikTok actually settled
11:55before court, so those aren't disclosed.
11:57And then YouTube and Meta went to court
11:59and lost. Um and they had to pay $6
12:01million.
12:02Um $3 million was for the actual
12:03damages, like the the person's
12:05compensatory, like your actual injuries,
12:07and then $3 million was because the
12:08evidence was so bad. They were like, "We
12:10want to punish Facebook." And actually
12:12added another $3 million just to deter
12:14them from doing it more.
12:15>> Wow. So, you know, I mean obviously this
12:18is a huge issue. There was just a $25
12:19billion
12:21settlement, I believe, with Meta. So,
12:22I'm I'm curious in this case, like how
12:25many how many cases do you need to
12:27really be able to make a sea change? To
12:29really get Meta and these other
12:31companies to actually listen, to see the
12:33impact of what they're doing, and to
12:34change their algorithm, to change the
12:36way that they're doing business.
12:37>> Yeah, I mean, you know, Facebook is I
12:39think their market cap is like $1.6
12:41trillion. So, it's crazy.
12:44Yeah, so they're they're huge. And so,
12:45you really want I mean, even if you look
12:47at their cash flow, I mean, their free
12:48cash flow is is in the hundreds of
12:49billions. So, so it's a lot of money.
12:52Um
12:52and to to really make them feel it, you
12:55have to have a a size of of damages here
12:57that that really hurts their bottom
12:59line.
13:00Um the AG settlement's a good example.
13:02Uh I think it's now down I think they
13:03ended up moving the needle to like 17
13:05billion
13:06um paid over 10 years.
13:08Um the good thing about that is it goes
13:10towards the states. Like all the like
13:11Medicare and Medicaid costs for treating
13:13these people,
13:14um you know, some of the recovery
13:15programs. They also added some
13:17restrictions on children and like how
13:19much time they can have on site, I
13:20believe, and and just how the children
13:22interact with the platform, which were
13:23the biggest argument arguing points for
13:26Facebook, which is interesting, more
13:27than I think even the money was. But,
13:29um so that that's good. We're starting
13:31to get some regulatory visibility. We're
13:33starting to get some rule changes.
13:35Um some restrictions on, you know, kids
13:37using this this platform for too many
13:38hours. And and what's left open still is
13:41the individual claim. So,
13:42to that point, there are, like I said,
13:45tens of thousands, I believe over
13:46100,000 now, um claims at least with
13:49lawyers, maybe not filed yet, um
13:52that will be coming down the pipe. And,
13:54you know, if you're talking tens of
13:55thousands of dollars per person, you
13:57know, now we're we're talking about tens
13:58of millions of dollars in in damages.
13:59So, it's very meaningful, and it will
14:01actually change the behavior of
14:02companies.
14:03>> Now, there's parents watching this
14:04saying, "My son or daughter went through
14:07this years ago, and they may be better
14:09now, they may be not." Um is there a
14:11time frame that they can actually open
14:13the lawsuit? And can they still get
14:15damages and claims from something that
14:17happened in the past?
14:18>> Yeah, so right now we are looking at
14:20anyone that used one of these social
14:23platforms, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok,
14:25Snapchat, uh YouTube, and if you you
14:28have a child that used it for more than
14:303 hours a day on average, um
14:32>> Which is everyone.
14:33>> Yeah.
14:33>> Yeah, I was going to say.
14:35>> Exactly. Um yeah, you'll be baffled on
14:37how many hours we actually see on these
14:39intakes. Um
14:40but between the ages of 5 and 17, you
14:43had to have used it then. Um and you
14:45have to sign up um by the time you're
14:4825. And so the ideal person was kind of
14:51used it as a child, that's the claim.
14:53And the reason why we go to 25 is their
14:54statute of limitations, so you can still
14:56run out a few years after that. So I
14:58would say like parents of children that
14:59are still minors would be the ones
15:00signing up um or young adults that are
15:04actually 18 to
15:0523, 4, 5 all have claims right now. And
15:08the claims are still open.
15:10Um
15:11you also have to have some kind of
15:12damages, so like said body dysmorphia,
15:14self-harm, depression, anxiety, um and
15:17have been treated or going to be treated
15:20uh for one of these
15:21issues.
15:22>> And so let's say someone fits that, how
15:24do they go about signing up and what, if
15:26anything, does it cost?
15:28>> Yeah, so
15:29like many litigations out there, they're
15:31very expensive. Um and so lawyers work
15:34on contingency, so uh it doesn't cost
15:36anything to get signed up. Um you would
15:38just find one of the lawyers involved in
15:40these litigations um and they do it on a
15:43contingency fee. So whenever you make
15:45money, then the lawyer, you know, gets
15:46paid, but otherwise they don't get paid
15:48anything. And they front all the costs,
15:50there's never any payback of expenses if
15:51they lose and um yeah, so it's it's
15:54pretty easy process. I would say that if
15:57you have been
15:58um affected by this claim and if you
16:01have injuries, definitely reach out to
16:02the lawyer and see if it qualifies. If
16:05you're a parent, I would say
16:07there's been a lot of struggle with some
16:08parents blaming themselves for the
16:10behavior, but we've seen over and over
16:12that this technology is not really
16:15something you you around. You know what
16:16I mean? Kid Kids are undefeated. You
16:18know, like they if they want something,
16:20they get it. Like I've got I've got
16:21three children. Like it's it it's very
16:23hard to like to work against like their
16:25whole friend groups on Snapchat. Like
16:26what are you going to do about it? It's
16:27you know, they're going to
16:28>> I'm curious your journey with your kids.
16:31How old are your kids now and and what
16:32was your
16:34observation with their relationship with
16:35social media?
16:36>> Yeah, it was interesting. I have a
16:3819-year-old. So, you know, full-grown
16:40adult. I have three girls and then I
16:42have a 12-year-old and a 13-year-old.
16:44And my first girl you know, I kind of
16:46went through this whole journey cuz I
16:48felt I was like, okay, this is like, you
16:50know, before we knew a lot of these
16:52things. I was like, well, it's better to
16:53get her like used to it. Like so she can
16:55like defend against herself and like it
16:56So, I got her on the platform early. And
16:59I let her use it. And luckily with her
17:00personality, she just didn't really get
17:02sucked in and didn't really but, you
17:04know, I had my other two kids that are
17:05very different. Um but we now see it
17:08totally different. Like we don't really
17:10We tried to lay as long as possible to
17:12get them on the on the platform.
17:14Um you know, we they don't have, you
17:16know, most of these social platforms
17:17they don't have accounts on
17:19even at 12 and 13 which all the friends
17:21do, but we still are holding out. Um
17:24yeah, it's just a very We're just much
17:26more educated now. And I think parents
17:28should look at it that way. Like we
17:28didn't know.
17:30And these platforms are very addictive.
17:31Like it's hard to say no to your kids
17:32like that.
17:34>> Yeah, and and I guess for any any
17:36parents listening right now, what advice
17:38would you have for them?
17:40>> I would say that at this point that
17:43it's not your fault. First of all. Um
17:46second of all, it is important for a few
17:48reasons that one, your kid may be
17:51suffering from issues or have injuries.
17:53You might have bills. I mean, these are
17:55all reasons why you should be
17:56compensated.
17:57Um
17:58not only that, but getting them
17:59treatment or, you know, recovery. Like
18:01this is to help you, you know, take care
18:03of your kid no matter what or why it
18:05happened. Um so, get involved. Um the
18:08other reason
18:09uh besides getting involved personally
18:10for personal reasons is to deter and to
18:14stop these companies from doing it to
18:15other people. Um so, this will set a lot
18:17of precedent. It is important. Um our
18:19whole world is becoming more and more
18:21technology driven, and so you need more
18:23people willing to stand up and, you
18:24know, say no and draw a line.
18:25>> Mhm.
18:27Now, going back to this open case that
18:29you have, um,
18:31for parents watching and for the kids,
18:33teenagers, people who are interested in
18:35in going through the actual process,
18:36take them through
18:38the entire process beginning to end of
18:40what they can expect, how it works, the
18:42timeline, the
18:43intake, all that.
18:45>> Yeah, so it's pretty simple to get
18:46signed up. Uh, you'll go through a
18:47questionnaire. You'll make sure that
18:49you, you know, meet the qualifications
18:51uh, that we went over. Then, you'll sign
18:53up with the lawyer. Um, there's there
18:56like I said, there's no cost. It's all
18:58uh, basically lawyers cover the cost of
19:00everything going on, and they'll walk
19:02you through the process. And if you win,
19:04then uh, the lawyer will take a fee out
19:06of what you win.
19:06>> And are you a lawyer, or do you
19:08represent lawyers, or how does it work?
19:09>> Uh, yes and.
19:11Um, I'm a lawyer. Uh, we work with the
19:14top lawyers in the country. Uh, Mark
19:16Lanier is the guy with the first
19:16verdict, so he's one of our our top uh,
19:19co-counsel partners that we work with,
19:20so
19:21um, anyone that comes to us, basically
19:23we look at him and one of three other
19:25guys that are largest, biggest trial
19:26guys in the country.
19:28Um, so they have the power, they have
19:29the resources to to fight this fight,
19:31cuz it's it's David and David and
19:33Goliath, for sure.
19:33>> Wow. Yeah, definitely a David and
19:35Goliath moment. And I'm curious to know
19:37if if you know, parents listening and
19:38this has happened to their child, or if
19:40there's a young adult listening,
19:41um, and and this has happened to them,
19:43you know, let's say someone signs up
19:45right now.
19:46Uh, how how long does this process
19:48normally take? Obviously, I I can't
19:49imagine you have an exact day, but I you
19:50know, timing, but I'm just curious like
19:51generally speaking, in your experience,
19:52how long does it take from once someone
19:54might sign up to when there's actually
19:56some type of resolution?
19:58>> Yeah, so the whole case could take four,
20:00five years. I mean, it could be a long
20:01thing. Um, but this has been going on
20:03for, you know, over a year now, and this
20:06one's moving a lot faster. Um, the the
20:09guy that hit the first trial verdict uh,
20:11is probably the best trial lawyer in the
20:12country.
20:13Um, arguably, he's he's the same guy
20:15that had a billion-dollar verdict in the
20:16Roundup, billion-dollar verdict in the
20:18Talc powder, you know, so very very uh,
20:21um,
20:22good trial lawyer. So, he's going to get
20:23definitely get the attention of the
20:24defense counsel and of Facebook. And so,
20:27he has a trial going on right now. And
20:28so, what happens is as you have trials,
20:31um, they start hitting the bottom line
20:33of the stock prices, and eventually they
20:35decide we better settle with everyone,
20:37not just this guy. And so, because this
20:39is happening, like it could happen four
20:41or five months, it could be a year or so
20:43to sign up. Um, but I would just get
20:46moving pretty quickly.
20:47>> Am I Am I right then that the more
20:49people that sign up now
20:51or in the near future, the more weight
20:53that these cases collectively have and
20:55the the higher likelihood that there
20:57will be a settlement and that that all
20:59these people have been so many people
21:00that we all know and so many children of
21:02friends of ours are so impacted by this.
21:04So, I'm just thinking like so, the more
21:06people that sign up the more likely that
21:08you're going to get more of an outcome
21:09and all these things and more of a
21:10change ultimately by these companies. Is
21:12that right?
21:13>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, the more
21:14people the better. Especially with a
21:15company that's worth $1.6 trillion. I
21:17mean, you really have to have power by
21:20numbers.
21:21Um, they're not going to run out of
21:22money. They don't, you know, that's not
21:23a worry. Like it's it's as many people
21:26that can stand up, you know, the better.
21:28>> Now, this is a really hard topic to even
21:31bring up, but suicide, suicide ideation,
21:34and ends
21:36all of us have been affected by it.
21:38People who have taken their lives
21:40and people whose kids have taken their
21:42lives.
21:43Um,
21:45can parents who have lost their children
21:47or know of people who have taken their
21:49life
21:50um, apply and and and what is that
21:52process look like?
21:54>> Yeah, that's it's one of the primary
21:56injuries and one of the most
21:57significant. Um,
21:59everyone knows like suicide rates have
22:00gone up across country in the last 10
22:02years.
22:03Um, I think we're just now seeing the
22:04side effects of these platforms and then
22:06other technologies across
22:09uh
22:10a group of people that have grew up with
22:11these technologies in their hand. So,
22:13this is just now becoming uh, you know,
22:15relevant and prevalent uh because we're
22:17seeing these kids grow up and, you know,
22:19actually having enough data to
22:20understand that it's it's because of the
22:23the they grew up in. Um, suicide rates
22:26right now in our clients are, you know,
22:28maybe 4 or 5% of our clients have
22:29actually completed suicide, so it's
22:32really insane on the number of
22:35significant injuries here. This isn't
22:37one of those things that like
22:38they that we're just suing on on no
22:40reason. I mean, these are these are real
22:42real injuries.
22:43Um, absolutely they can sign up. Uh,
22:45whoever is the
22:47uh state, usually the parent would sign
22:49up.
22:50Um, I think those are the most
22:50important. Those are going to hit the
22:51the the balance sheet and up and you
22:53know, their pocketbooks the most. Um,
22:55they have the the story is the most
22:57compelling. I mean, it's it's it's the
22:59most sad thing that could happen is for
23:01someone to lose a kid.
23:02Um, so absolutely those people are very
23:04important to tell their story and to be
23:06heard and seen and and compensated.
23:09>> Yeah, you know, and I'm just thinking,
23:10you know, with the with the rise in in
23:13AI right now and how that's, you know,
23:14shifting the landscape and how we kind
23:16of interact with the world around us and
23:18even on social media, right? What are
23:20you What are you seeing come down the
23:21pipeline? I know this is such an
23:22important topic and how are you seeing
23:25things like this hopefully making a dent
23:26at a moment when there's a lot shifting
23:28in in the world of technology?
23:31>> Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, AI is
23:32coming out.
23:34I, you know, I remember when the first
23:36uh
23:37Facebook ad platform was coming out and
23:39the machine learning they were doing
23:40there and I talked to some engineers
23:41that were saying they don't really
23:42understand what's going on, especially
23:44when one machine learning algorithm
23:46talking to another one. And now we have
23:49AI, which is even more,
23:51uh, you know, by a, you know, factor of
23:54log 10 complicated.
23:55Um,
23:56and so you have these technologies that
23:58we don't understand and they're growing
23:59so rapidly and shit's going to happen. I
24:02mean, like it's going to hurt people,
24:04it's going to we're going to mess up.
24:05Um, I'm a huge fan of
24:06innovation, you know, I'm a very tech
24:08forward person, um,
24:10but we just have to like make sure to
24:11slow down long enough that we take care
24:12of humans, you know? I robots can't be
24:15more important.
24:15>> Well, it's it's funny. Uh, at
24:17slaughterhouses they have the feed where
24:19everyone comes to eat and it's and so,
24:22you know, here we are the users getting
24:24our feed every day and at some point
24:27they have to realize that we're all
24:28getting so sick and and and dying and
24:31that
24:32they need the next generation of users
24:35to come in. So, once again, capital
24:36markets working against itself and and
24:39capital to save capital is like, "Hey,
24:41you need healthy people that live long
24:44lives in order to maximize your profit
24:46in the next generation, right?"
24:48>> Yeah.
24:49>> And so, how do how do, you know, they
24:51come to that realization?
24:53>> Yeah, it's always interesting like the
24:54comment that the only two industries
24:55that use the word users are drug dealers
24:58and software.
24:59You know.
25:00>> Wow.
25:01>> That's right.
25:01>> Sit with that for a moment.
25:03>> Yeah.
25:04So, it's it's just fascinating how they
25:05approach um
25:07getting people on the platform. I think
25:08mobile really took it to the next level
25:09cuz like the the idea of like freemium
25:11models came out where everything was
25:12free, but then they try to like get you
25:15really addicted with some dopamine and
25:16then make you pay afterwards. They've
25:17realized they can make a lot more money
25:19um optimizing for dopamine than they
25:21could on charging someone up front.
25:23>> In-app purchases.
25:24>> In-app purchases. Um
25:26and that's in social media be
25:27algorithmic feeds, it'll be autoplay,
25:29it'll be like pull to refresh was one on
25:31Twitter that they they patented. Um all
25:33these things like trigger these brain
25:35chemicals that make you feel happy, make
25:36you feel good. Um it's gold coins in the
25:39in the video game, you know.
25:41Um and now our economy runs on basically
25:42addiction, giving crack to
25:44to children and and then charging them
25:46for it after they're addicted. Like
25:48>> Mhm.
25:49>> Yeah, I'm you know,
25:51I'm I'm reminded of a this is actually
25:54over New Year's of an exercise um with
25:57Tristan Harris and some friends around
25:59imagining what would have happened with
26:00social media had they made changes. And
26:03it was a like this idea kind of you're
26:04talking about kind of these three levers
26:05that that they have to pull. And this
26:08idea of like what if one of those levers
26:09was actually like
26:11what's best for humanity or what's best
26:13for our children? And it's not
26:14currently. However, imagine if that was
26:16the case and imagine if, you know,
26:19you would imagine these companies would
26:20probably still be profitable. Maybe not
26:211.6 trillion, but maybe they would be at
26:231 trillion or whatever the number is.
26:25And and so, I'm just wondering, you
26:27know, how we as a society move that in
26:30in this direction.
26:32>> Well, I mean I mean I you know, shout
26:34out to Roland Peralta, our dear friend
26:36who sold his company to Unilever and and
26:39could have just retired, but he's
26:41started a nonprofit called When Justice
26:43where he raises money from LPs and from
26:46micro donations and retains the best
26:48legal counsel in the world to go after
26:50bad actors. And it's it's working, you
26:52know, it's like fighting fire with fire,
26:54fighting lawfare with lawfare, and
26:56playing their game and going up to bat
26:58against them.
27:00You know, and that that seems to have
27:01some legs, that whole idea.
27:03>> Yeah, I mean I think of this whole our
27:04country is built on, you know,
27:07immigrants innovation, like really
27:08trying to become the thought leader of
27:11the world if you will on on the future.
27:14I think we solve this the same way. It's
27:16like you get really talented, really
27:17smart people to care about humanity and,
27:21you know, how how the earth is and how
27:23your human experience is. Um and the
27:26more people that are as smart as the
27:28tech guys that are doing this, I mean we
27:29start to move the needle. And I think
27:31there's a course correct going on now. I
27:33mean we had all this this growth and
27:34this rapid innovation, and everyone's
27:36now seeing some of the the shadow sides
27:38of of of maybe the AI and and the the
27:41proliferation of all this technology we
27:42don't understand. Um so we just need
27:44innovation on the other side. I'm an I'm
27:45an optimist in that way.
27:47>> Yeah, you know, and I speaking of
27:48optimism, I think you're already
27:49starting to answer this question, but
27:50you know, given that you're kind of in
27:52the weeds with all of these kind of the
27:54harmful, you know, negative
27:55externalities of of these different
27:57industries, what how do you like how do
27:59you maintain hope? And where where do
28:01you see us moving forward that, you
28:02know, cuz I I know you're an optimist
28:04like in a way that is optimistic. What
28:05does that look like for you?
28:07>> So, that's interesting.
28:08>> And realistic.
28:09>> Yeah.
28:10>> Yeah.
28:10>> Uh you know, cuz I am neck deep in in
28:13very bad behavior and a lot of harm. Um
28:16but at the same time,
28:18I love technology. I think it's it's
28:19fascinating. I think I think humans are
28:21curious. Like we were meant to find fire
28:24and to go to space.
28:25Um you know, we're meant to push the
28:27button, open the box, whatever it is.
28:29It's what we were designed to do. Um so
28:31I just have faith that
28:34humanity has balance. You know, there's
28:35there's kind of the good and the bad and
28:37there's the shadow and the light. And I
28:39think that we can use technology um
28:42to preserve humanity and to make life
28:44better uh in a way that makes sense for
28:47everybody. And I think that that future
28:49of the world is just inevitable to me.
28:52And it's just about getting there.
28:53>> Now, speaking of technology, you have
28:55two microphones on you right now. You
28:56got one tucked away underneath there.
28:58You mind showing that little piece?
29:00>> Sure.
29:00>> Cuz he's on a He's got a wire, Daddy.
29:02>> Oh, yeah. That's right. That's right.
29:04>> can you explain to the audience what
29:06that is and where that's going?
29:08>> Yeah, so I have it's a AI voice
29:10transcriber. Um so, it takes everything
29:11I say, it goes onto my local laptop,
29:14um and then I use it just to like
29:16remember everything, take notes, and and
29:18get information.
29:19>> Now, you showed me the back end. Can you
29:20explain
29:22I've never seen anything like it. Like
29:24it's a hive mind digital brain.
29:27>> And it's wild. Like what have you cooked
29:28up over there?
29:29>> Yeah, so my my realization was that AI,
29:33um you know, your chat GPTs, Clauds,
29:35they're very good at knowing what we
29:36want and everything about humans, but
29:38they don't really let you preserve any
29:41information about yourself, like
29:42individualized information. Um it's kind
29:45of like Facebook. I mean, Facebook do
29:46the same thing. They were like they know
29:47everything about you, but if you try to
29:48get everything about you out of
29:50Facebook, it's not really a way to do
29:51that. Um and so, it's very smart cuz it
29:54gives them the power and doesn't give
29:55the individual very much. And so, when I
29:57was thinking about that, I was like,
29:58well, maybe I'll take all my digital
30:00footprint myself and put it somewhere.
30:02Um so, I started recording my just my
30:04conversations. I started uh pulling in
30:06my emails and my texts and everything.
30:08And this is all local, so it doesn't go
30:09anywhere.
30:10Um and then I I take that information
30:12and create this database that actually
30:14ties into my my chats. And so, now I can
30:18personalize my conversation with AI in a
30:20way that you can't do without, you know,
30:22the work.
30:23>> Mhm.
30:23>> It's been fascinating.
30:24>> What have what have been some of your
30:26key takeaways or learnings about
30:27yourself that have come through from
30:29that um
30:31from trying this experiment?
30:32>> Yeah, so the original reason I did this
30:34was cuz I was curious um
30:36about where I put my energy into the
30:38world. You know, I was meeting all these
30:40amazing people. You know, we've become
30:41really close friends.
30:43And I was like, do I have alignment and
30:45integrity with what I think I'm putting
30:47my energy into and what I'm actually
30:48doing?
30:49So that's been very interesting. So you
30:51take there's a lot of work context that
30:52gets a bigger digital footprint.
30:55So you kind of got to like adjust for
30:56that. But then you realize like your
30:58most personal intimate moments aren't
30:59really surrounded by technology. You're
31:00not recording them. You're not, you
31:02know, they're they're they're just in
31:04life being alive, right? And so I was
31:06like, how do I reconstruct that to give
31:08it enough information? And then the
31:10outcomes what I did was after I got it
31:12all in there and I got years of of
31:14documents and knowledge bases and
31:15company information everything in there.
31:17And I was like, okay, well, let's run
31:18like an inference model, a prediction
31:20model to say what am I going to do next?
31:22Who am I talking to more? Who will I
31:24chat with? Who will Who will initiate
31:26the chat? Will out of in a new
31:28relationship? Like who's going to text
31:29who first? It's interesting. So then it
31:31gives you these predictions. That's the
31:33most interesting to me. Cuz it's like,
31:34you will go set up a live meeting with
31:35this person 70% chance. And I'll read it
31:38and I'm like,
31:39am I going to do it cuz I just read it?
31:41Or
31:42>> [laughter]
31:42>> was I going to do it anyway? So that's
31:44fascinating. So all these things are
31:46And then it just gets better and better
31:47at predicting what you're going to do.
31:48So it's it's very good at human
31:50behavior. I've learned that the most is
31:51like predicting your behavior. It's It's
31:54it It's excellent at. And so AI is going
31:56to use that skill to understand humans
31:59more and more.
31:59>> It's funny. He showed me a book of our
32:03beat He's a trip. That was our first
32:04time we met and he he cut to the scene
32:07where I had entered in our first
32:09interaction. And it was like a good like
32:11New York Times best seller book. Like I
32:13wanted to know what happened left next.
32:14There's cliffhangers. It's a really
32:16well-written
32:18book / memoir. And I can only imagine
32:21everyone's got a book in their head. At
32:22mindful agency, that's all we see. Like
32:24everyone's got a book or multiple books,
32:25but they just don't know how to sit down
32:27and write it or they feel feels weird
32:29just having AI just drum something up.
32:31But this is more in-depth cuz it was
32:34real moments captured and shared.
32:37>> Yeah.
32:37>> Yeah, and actually I was trying to do a
32:38journal entry. This is right before I
32:40started working on this, and I had
32:42voiced a note into the ChatGPT, and I
32:44was like, "Just write it as a chapter of
32:45a book." And I was like thinking it'd be
32:46perfect. It was not. It hallucinated. It
32:49did all these things. It forgot the
32:50context, you know, so all those things
32:51failed. And so, I built this to solve
32:53that problem first. Um but yeah, so the
32:55accuracy I mean there's like one prompt.
32:57It was no no correcting any facts.
32:59Um and so, what I look at is like if we
33:02can use technology to wrap like an Iron
33:04Man suit around every person.
33:06>> Mhm.
33:06>> Like not just Iron Man. Um I think
33:09that's a cool goal for AI is like how do
33:11you enable and activate creativity and
33:13creation and and beauty in a world that
33:16makes it difficult usually. Like make it
33:18easier.
33:19Um and give it to everyone. Like
33:20democratize it. And so, I think that's a
33:22beautiful outlook for for where
33:24technology can go.
33:25>> I I love that perspective. I mean, I
33:27think it's we're at this interesting
33:28like uh intersection right now, right?
33:29Where you know, ultimately and this is
33:31kind of what I'm hearing from you is
33:32that technology is just powerful. And
33:34it's getting ex- you know, exponentially
33:36more powerful right now with the advent
33:38of AI.
33:39And it's it's not that it's good or bad,
33:41but rather it's how we use it, right?
33:43There's there's so much good that we can
33:44do with AI, and there's also so much
33:45harm that can be done with AI just like
33:47we're seeing with social media. You
33:49know, and so I think when back to kind
33:50of the initial conversation here around
33:52the the the you know, kind of the the
33:54the big case that you're working on
33:55right now. Um you know, it's like how do
33:57we how do we incentivize social media to
34:01actually be pro-human. How do we
34:03incentivize social media to actually be
34:05something that is a positive over time
34:08for humanity versus a lot of what we're
34:10seeing right now, which is actually have
34:11causing all of this harm.
34:14>> Yeah, I think that's a tough one. I
34:15think
34:16inherently the advertising model
34:19um it wasn't on purpose. Like I guess
34:21I'll go back to that. Like I was talking
34:23to the guy that invented the like
34:24button. And he was like he was like, "We
34:25meant for this to be joy like and
34:27happiness." He's like, "But we realized
34:29that the lack of likes actually made
34:31people feel stronger than having the
34:34likes." So, it was actually a tool to to
34:37do like thumbs down. That's really what
34:38it is. If you're not having the thumbs
34:39up. Um and then they also realized that
34:42the advertising model wanted certainty
34:43on behavior and negative certainty and
34:46negative click like
34:48uh
34:48headlines or whatever, clickbait,
34:50actually works better. And so it
34:53optimizes for that psychology. So I
34:55think the advertising model is a broken
34:56part. Um, how do you make it better? I
34:59think that
35:00it goes back to like financial models is
35:01how I look at it. If you don't
35:02incentivize and reward good behavior,
35:05then it's not going to train itself to
35:07produce more good behavior. Um, and so I
35:10think with like regulation and with you
35:12know, certain type of oversights like
35:13right now what we're doing with children
35:14is like you have to teach the AI what
35:17good means.
35:18Right? And so until we make laws and
35:20force these companies to to do good um,
35:22and do what's right, then then there's
35:24no information out there to train AIs to
35:26do better.
35:27>> Well, look what Elon's doing. He just
35:28launched X money. Uh, his original idea,
35:30he bought x.com and they were supposed
35:33to merge with PayPal years ago. This was
35:35during the PayPal Mafia days and then
35:36they chose PayPal and he got kicked out
35:38of company, but he kept the domain and
35:41then obviously bought and up buying
35:43Twitter with his uh Tesla um shares he
35:46used as collateral. $44 billion
35:48purchase.
35:49Um, but our friend was actually involved
35:51with Owen talking about how they did a
35:53420 uh stock price just
35:55just to
35:56just to meme the entire system, but
35:58anyways, um uh so Elon now launched X
36:01money where people can send each other
36:03money through X in this X currency and
36:05then I guess they take some sort of
36:07fee. So I mean like when you own the
36:08entire ecosystem, imagine Meta
36:11um facilitating events and clipping at
36:14uh ticket sales. Imagine being able to
36:15send some sort of Meta money and taking
36:17that or all these platforms. Like
36:19there's so many models when you own 4
36:21billion people on your network that they
36:24could just get creative with. Why why
36:25are they not doing that?
36:28>> I don't know. I think it's like I said,
36:29I think it goes back to their their
36:30revenue models and just trying to grow.
36:32So they're just you know, it goes back
36:33to leadership, I guess. Um, you know,
36:35these companies are
36:37ran by very powerful CEOs. I mean, you
36:39you mentioned Elon Musk for instance,
36:40like he pretty much has absolute power
36:42over the companies he he's running. Same
36:45as Duck. He has like his Zuckerberg
36:46trust where he doesn't really have to
36:47listen to the board. He doesn't have to
36:49listen to a stockholders, you know,
36:51voting rights or whatever. Like they
36:52have absolute power. And so I think it
36:54goes back to the leadership. I mean you
36:55got to get them to pay attention.
36:56Lawsuits is one way to do it, but how do
36:59you get these people to care cuz they
37:00kind of are stewarding like the future
37:02of humanity.
37:03>> Yeah, you know, one thing I think a lot
37:04about, you know, I know Michael and I
37:05think about this a lot with mindful
37:06capital. So much of our intention of
37:08behind what we do is to really how can
37:10we get behind, you know, conscious
37:12entrepreneurs and the companies that
37:13they're building that have products that
37:15are actually moving community in the
37:16right direction. They're actually good
37:17for people, planet, and profit. And how
37:19can we show that more and more you can
37:21actually get positive returns while also
37:23doing actual real impactful good. You
37:26know, and and how can we kind of create
37:27that as a cultural norm versus kind of
37:30being the like the the unusual unique
37:32thing that people invest in. Right? And
37:34how can we show that over and over again
37:36that's actually the direction that you
37:38know, that that society and that
37:39companies want to move in to then kind
37:41of bend the needle on capitalism in the
37:42right direction. Yeah. And I kind of see
37:44the work that you're doing as kind of
37:45holding, you know, one piece of the a
37:47very important piece of the
37:48accountability for a lot of these larger
37:50tech companies to remind them to move
37:52back in that direction.
37:54>> Yeah, I would say I I look at the legal
37:55industry like computers back when there
37:57was like pocket protectors, you know,
37:59and like khaki shorts and IBM servers.
38:02>> [laughter]
38:03>> Nobody thought computers were cool.
38:05Um
38:05but I feel like I see a future where
38:08like lawyers could actually be, you
38:10know, the iPhone. You know, like it
38:11could be actually way cooler. Like I
38:13think of it like the tip of the spear
38:14like the 300 like Marcus Aurelius. Like
38:16he was he was the one in the front of
38:17the battlefield. And I think that that's
38:20the role of lawyers is actually being
38:22the tip of the spear, fighting the
38:23fight, like being in the courtroom. I
38:25think that everything else can be kind
38:27of standardized and made much more
38:28efficient when it comes to access to
38:30justice and processing claims and
38:31whatnot. But actually championing the
38:33cause of humanity. This is why there so
38:35many lawyer shows. Like there's it's
38:37it's it's conflict and human conflict at
38:39its core. It's interesting and it
38:40matters. Um I think lawyers were meant
38:43to do that work.
38:44Um and I think that's what's going to
38:45shake out in the next 10 years is is
38:47really
38:48um, holding some accountability and
38:49visibility to that space.
38:50>> Well, because nobody's above the law in
38:52the in the land of justice and liberty.
38:55And so, you're yeah, you're you're
38:57fronting that and that's
38:59I mean, lawyer documents and these these
39:01incredible long I don't know how you
39:04even do it. I can't even read these
39:06types of documents. [laughter]
39:08Literally, I go cross-eyed. Uh, so thank
39:10you for your service.
39:12Um, and so, just going back to what
39:14you're currently working on. Now, you
39:15obviously have this big lawsuit. Uh, is
39:17there any others that are that you can
39:19share that are of interest or that could
39:21be um, something
39:23uh, to bring visibility to?
39:25>> Yeah, I mean, right now I've
39:26transitioned from um,
39:28a lot of these medical and and big oil
39:30type companies that we were going after
39:33um, and really focusing on technology.
39:34Like, that's what I know.
39:36Uh, that's what I love. Uh, I think it's
39:38interesting. And also focusing on
39:39children cuz I think that right now
39:41children are really becoming the the
39:43real victims in in a lot of what's going
39:45on. They're becoming the guinea pigs,
39:46essentially. Um, you know, cuz if you
39:48get the kids, you know, you get the
39:50adults. And so, and you've seen it with
39:52TikTok, you know, musically. It was
39:53first a musically site. It was geared
39:55towards like 8-year-olds and
39:5610-year-olds, you know, and then turned
39:57into TikTok.
39:58Um, Snapchat's, you know, the has one of
40:01the lower
40:02average age of the users. Um,
40:04so you see this trend going on.
40:06Um,
40:07so yeah, I think it's it's fascinating.
40:09So, we've been looking at technology.
40:10We've been looking at like video games.
40:11Obviously, they talk about gamification.
40:13I mean, it comes from the video game
40:15industry um,
40:16which is also stems from the gambling
40:17industry. I mean, it's all the same
40:19psychology.
40:20Um,
40:21and then uh, yeah, we looked at like
40:23Roblox. There's a lot of issues with uh,
40:25content and like having uh, predatorial
40:28things going on on the platform and and
40:30uh, sexual abuse going on through the
40:32platform and them using it. And so,
40:33that's been another litigation that's
40:35been uh, you know, close to my heart and
40:37just trying to figure out how can we
40:38really
40:40get enough attention to stop this
40:42behavior.
40:42>> So, is that is that used uh, sexual
40:44predators as users in the game
40:46interacting with other users and
40:47children?
40:48>> Yeah, so it's same argument here is like
40:50Roblox is a platform, right? They allow
40:52other people to make video games and to
40:54make things that they can then host on
40:56this platform. Like it's like a iPhone
40:57OS and then App Store, right? Like we
40:59don't make the apps is kind of the
41:00argument. And uh but people are making
41:03the apps and like you have children on
41:04there and so there's like like let's get
41:06out of the legal here and say like
41:08you should care.
41:09Like that's it, you know, it's super
41:11simple. Um you should protect children
41:13and if people are using your platform,
41:15you should care. I don't care what the
41:16law says. Um and so I think that's what
41:19we're trying to make them care, you
41:21know, cuz and make them stop hiding
41:22behind nuances of law.
41:25>> Now, is there are there any efforts to
41:27change
41:29law at the federal level around these
41:30issues? I'm just wondering cuz you know,
41:31right now it's it's kind of going
41:32directly after the company, super
41:34powerful direct approach, but I can also
41:36imagine a world where you're going at,
41:38you know, trying to change state or
41:39federal laws to help protect us. Just
41:41like we're looking at right now, there's
41:42a discussion around how do we regulate
41:43AI and should we have federal
41:45regulation, etc.
41:46>> Yeah, so I think this is a big moment
41:47cuz like the AG settlement is I guess
41:50one step in working with the government.
41:51So you're working with the the head of
41:53the
41:54uh this this arm of each state. And so
41:56they're creating state regulations right
41:58now around what's going on. I think out
42:00of that you'll get a lot of attention
42:02for federal and national regulation. Um
42:04we'll see what happens, but I think this
42:06is the path to make it happen.
42:08>> Wow, uh that's that's powerful. And just
42:12to educate the use
42:13the viewers, the users
42:15on this feed. Uh um which is funny
42:18because I asked you, how are [laughter]
42:20you how are you marketing this lawsuit
42:22against Meta? You're like, oh, Meta.
42:24Meta ads. We're throwing money as fast
42:26as we can. So it's
42:27systems you being used against itself.
42:30It's that's what we did with Mindful
42:31Agency for the last 5 years. We used the
42:33media network that thrives off of
42:35clickbait, fake news to go and tell
42:37stories of mindful people doing mindful
42:39things. And now we're
42:42dabbling into the capitalistic system
42:43saying how does capital in its search
42:46for returns get maximized returns
42:49into these companies that are actually
42:50healing the planet.
42:51>> Exactly.
42:51>> And the same thing for social now. It's
42:53like, "Okay, well, how do we
42:55do ads and UGC and creator networks to
42:57really
42:58um tell this story so that we can jump
43:01on as powered by numbers and make
43:04change, right?
43:05>> Yeah, that's been like a 15-year um
43:07journey for me getting in the legal and
43:09the archaic nature of it. It was all TV
43:11ads kind of when I first started, and
43:13I've never ran TV ad. Uh maybe tiny ones
43:15here and there, but long time ago. Um
43:17but in this space, always on digital,
43:20and I've always been a proponent, and no
43:21one believed it, and I just kept doing
43:23it. And it's like, "Guys, if you're
43:24going to change the game, like you have
43:26to know it, you have to know how to play
43:27it, you know how to beat it, and then
43:29you can change it."
43:30>> That's right.
43:30>> Right? And so right now the game is
43:32digital marketing. I mean, digital
43:33marketing is how you get information to
43:35the world. And so of course we're going
43:37to use Meta. Of course we're going to
43:38use their own platforms to to advertise.
43:41They're the best platforms. They're the
43:43most addictive, they're the most
43:44shareable. Of course we're going to use
43:45them.
43:45>> And it's also where the the you're it's
43:47also where your direct demographic is,
43:48right? Because the people who were
43:49literally have been and are being harmed
43:52by social media are Where are they? On
43:55social media. So it makes it makes a lot
43:56of sense. AJ, any anything else that you
43:59want to share with our listeners either
44:01around specifically this case, how to
44:03get involved, or anything else more
44:05broadly just cuz you you've done such
44:06deep work in you know, like you said,
44:08this is one of the main ways that we
44:09actually as collectively as a society
44:12and as individuals get to hold these
44:13companies accountable for the for the
44:16you know, for the harm that is being
44:17caused. Anything else you want to share
44:19with with our listeners here?
44:20>> Yeah, I would say one of the most
44:22interesting things we we didn't touch on
44:24um
44:24is the actual evidence here. So a lot of
44:27this came to light because in 2021, an
44:31actual Facebook employee, there's a
44:32movie about this just came out. Um
44:35Aaron Sorkin, I believe did it. And the
44:38the woman left, and she took the
44:40internal documents and the internal
44:42research of Facebook, and basically
44:45launched it to the world and gave it up
44:46to the world. Um and so basically in
44:49court, we're going in there and they're
44:49saying, "Oh, we didn't know. We're not
44:51doing this on purpose." And they had
44:53their own research studies saying that
44:56children were being addicted and that
44:57this was causing body dysmorphia in
44:59young women. And like they were causing
45:01them to hate themselves and to you know
45:02have a you know
45:04depression and anxiety. And And I'm like
45:06you're literally reading their own
45:08material to them in court as proof they
45:10did it. It's like I don't know how you
45:11argue with that.
45:11>> So it's a whistleblower showing the
45:14negligence
45:15that was going on. They They They did
45:17the studies. They found the results and
45:19then they just kind of tucked it under.
45:21>> Yep. And someone was brave enough to
45:22leave and show it to the world. And then
45:24so now in court we're we're having them
45:25read their own transcripts.
45:26>> When did that happen?
45:27>> Uh 2021 was when that actually happened.
45:29>> Yeah. I I actually remember that that
45:31that time period um cuz it's right when
45:32they were making The Social Dilemma.
45:34Mhm. I Yeah, I mean it's such a powerful
45:36thing where oftentimes with these
45:37companies they actually because they
45:39have so much resources, you know, they
45:41actually do have the ability to see
45:43what's actually happening. And I think
45:45that's where there there's real neg-
45:47negligence that you talked about, right?
45:48Because they actually literally know
45:49that this is happening and yet they
45:50continue with their algorithms and with
45:52the model.
45:53>> Yeah.
45:53>> Yeah. It's It's beyond negligence. Yeah.
45:55I mean it's crazy.
45:56>> also everyone thinks they're right,
45:58right? You know, you you have a criminal
46:00who blew up the Capitol building. He
46:01thought he was right cuz he was you
46:02know, they were the bad guys. So it's so
46:04you know, I'm sure
46:06Zack and
46:07uh Evan Spiegel, these guys are like,
46:08"Well, sure all these byproducts are
46:10happening, but look how connected
46:12everyone it is. Look how happy everyone
46:14is, you know?"
46:15>> Yeah, I would say justifications. But I
46:16mean the bottom line though is like they
46:17did the research. Maybe they did or
46:19didn't know the results, you know, uh
46:21they got the result. It was very clear
46:22what it was doing and they decided to do
46:24nothing about it. So.
46:25>> Mhm.
46:25>> Yeah. Yeah. Um well, we like to end our
46:29podcast on a
46:30intimate moments. Um you have three
46:32kids.
46:34All daughters.
46:34>> Mhm.
46:35>> Um
46:36>> Mhm.
46:37>> I know I'm sure you're not into them
46:38having boyfriends, but at some point
46:39they're going to have uh partners and
46:41and hopefully kids of their own.
46:44These kids are going to be growing up in
46:45this
46:46next world and they're going to be
46:48wanting to hear from their grandpa what
46:50his I know you don't do this often, so I
46:53I want to honor you for coming on this
46:54show.
46:55>> Yeah.
46:55>> And um they're listening right now and
46:58they want to know um a bit about their
47:00grandpa. And I'm wondering if you have
47:02a message for your grandkids and your
47:05great grandkids and your great great
47:06grandkids.
47:07>> I think that my philosophy now on being
47:11a parent
47:12is that I think a lot of people get it
47:14wrong where they they think they have
47:16this responsibility to shape them or
47:18train them or like make them a certain
47:20way.
47:21And I truly believe that I guess knowing
47:25who you are as a parent and being happy
47:28um and being yourself is the best
47:30example you can give. And then just love
47:32your children.
47:33And whatever they do, they're going to
47:34do. You know, it's not my I don't own
47:37the child. Like it's it's actually they
47:38become an independent person way earlier
47:40than most parents realize or they're
47:42willing to accept. Um so yeah, I've
47:44beautiful beautiful daughters. I'm sure
47:46they'll have beautiful boyfriends and
47:47children. Um and I will be there to love
47:50them all and uh hopefully to
47:53be myself as an example what they're
47:55able to be as well. Be alive.
47:56>> So your grandkids are
47:596 years old listening to granddaddy
48:00right now uh live on this microphone.
48:02What what's the message you have simply
48:05for them?
48:06>> You know, um have fun.
48:08Uh have passion. Know that they're
48:11loved.
48:12And uh
48:13you know, be their most alive authentic
48:15self. I mean
48:17what else you going to do with your
48:17life?
48:18>> Hm.
48:19>> Hm.
48:20>> Hm.
48:20>> Well said. AJ, thank you so much for
48:23joining us. It's really wonderful to
48:24learn more about your story, the work
48:25that you're doing, and also um just more
48:28of your values.
48:29Yeah.
48:29>> Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It
48:31was beautiful.
48:32>> Hm.

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