Beyond Innocence: The Life Sentence of Darryl Hunt — Transcript

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28. 3:08watching the live stream around the
29. 3:11world my name is Agustin Baylor and I am
30. 3:13a third year law student at Duke Law and
31. 3:16the executive director of the Duke Law
32. 3:17Innocence Project on behalf of our
33. 3:20leadership team it is my distinct
34. 3:21pleasure to welcome everyone to our
35. 3:23event Beyond innocence the life sentence
36. 3:25of Daryl hunt joining the Innocence
37. 3:28Network in recognition of the Ninth
38. 3:30Annual International wrongful conviction
39. 3:32day today keeping in mind this year's
40. 3:35theme of collective impact recognizing
41. 3:37the broad impact of wrongful convictions
42. 3:40our program will focus on a wrongful
43. 3:42conviction that occurred close to our
44. 3:43home in Winston-Salem North Carolina the
45. 3:46wrongful conviction of Daryl pond for
46. 3:49those not familiar with the case Daryl
47. 3:51hunt a then 19 year old black man was
48. 3:54wrongfully convicted for the 1984 rape
49. 3:57and murder of Deborah Sykes who was a
50. 4:00young white female copy editor at the
51. 4:02Sentinel the afternoon newspaper in
52. 4:04Winston-Salem after multiple trials hunt
53. 4:07was convicted by an all-white jury from
54. 4:09a rural County and sentenced to life in
55. 4:12prison
56. 4:13hunt spent 19 and a half years in prison
57. 4:16before being exonerated because of DNA
58. 4:19evidence following his exoneration Han
59. 4:21went on to become a champion in the
60. 4:24fight against wrongful convictions
61. 4:26volunteering with the national Innocence
62. 4:28Project and founding the Daryl hunt
63. 4:30Project for Freedom and Justice a
64. 4:33non-profit organization dedicated to
65. 4:35education on Criminal Justice Reform
66. 4:37opportunities advocacy for the
67. 4:39wrongfully convicted and the provision
68. 4:41of resources for the reintegration of
69. 4:43individuals returning from prison
70. 4:46tragically in March of 2016 at the age
71. 4:49of 51 hunt took his own life
72. 4:52we are honored today to be joined by
73. 4:55Professor Phoebe zarwick whose work was
74. 4:57crucial in the exoneration of Daryl hunt
75. 5:00Professor zerwick is a professor and the
76. 5:02director of the journalism program at
77. 5:04Wake Forest University she received a
78. 5:06bachelor's degree in Humanities from the
79. 5:08University of Chicago and a master's
80. 5:10degree in journalism from the Columbia
81. 5:12University graduate school of Journalism
82. 5:15Professor zerwick is an award-winning
83. 5:17investigative journalist whose work has
84. 5:20been published in numerous National
85. 5:21Publications in 2003 while working with
86. 5:25the Winston-Salem Journal Professor
87. 5:27zerwick wrote an eight-part series about
88. 5:29Daryl Hunt's arrest and conviction
89. 5:30titled murder race Justice the state
90. 5:33versus Daryl hunt
91. 5:35it was in part due to our thorough
92. 5:37investigative journalism that hunt was
93. 5:39exonerated in early 2004.
94. 5:42further her role in Daryl hunt case was
95. 5:44featured in the HBO documentary The
96. 5:47Trials of Daryl hunt Professor zerwick
97. 5:49will speak with us today about the
98. 5:51continuation of Hunt's story in her new
99. 5:53book
100. 5:54Beyond innocence the life sentence of
101. 5:57Daryl hunt the book tells the story of
102. 5:59Daryl Hunt's wrongful conviction that
103. 6:01challenges improving his innocence and
104. 6:03his struggles following his exoneration
105. 6:05and release you can purchase copies of
106. 6:07her book through our website Phoebe
107. 6:09zerwick.com
108. 6:10Professor zerwick will be interviewed by
109. 6:12Duke Law's very own Professor Jamie Lau
110. 6:15Professor Lau is the deputy director of
111. 6:18Duke Law's Center for criminal justice
112. 6:19and professional responsibility the
113. 6:22supervising attorney of Duke laws
114. 6:23wrongful conviction clinic and one of
115. 6:26the faculty advisors of the Duke Law
116. 6:28Innocence Project during his time at
117. 6:30Duke Professor Lau has represented
118. 6:32numerous incarcerated individuals
119. 6:34asserting innocence in state and federal
120. 6:36court Professor Lau also started the
121. 6:38clemency project at Duke and has
122. 6:40successfully petitioned the governor for
123. 6:42clemency in innocence cases which is a
124. 6:44requirement for compensation after a
125. 6:46wrongful conviction recently he has
126. 6:49submitted communication applications for
127. 6:51numerous individuals sentenced to life
128. 6:52in prison as juveniles prior to joining
129. 6:55Duke Lau worked with the North Carolina
130. 6:57innocence inquiry commission where he
131. 6:59investigated post-convention claims of
132. 7:01Innocence Professor Lau earned his JD
133. 7:03from Duke Law a masters in secondary
134. 7:06mathematics education from Lehman
135. 7:08College and a bachelor's degree in
136. 7:10economics at the University of
137. 7:11California at Berkeley Professor Lau was
138. 7:14also active on Twitter and you can
139. 7:15follow him at Lao Durham
140. 7:17so without much further Ado it is my
141. 7:20honor to turn the floor over to
142. 7:21professors Loudon zerwick thank you both
143. 7:23so much for speaking with us today
144. 7:25foreign
145. 7:31thank you guys and thank you for
146. 7:32everyone who's joining us today
147. 7:35um both here in person and on the live
148. 7:37stream for the Innocence Network
149. 7:40um I want to ask you first professor
150. 7:42zerwick and I should stop and thank you
151. 7:45for joining us today well thank you
152. 7:47honor to have you here
153. 7:49um but I want to ask you first if you
154. 7:50can just explain
155. 7:52um how you came into uh the Daryl hunt
156. 7:56case and the death investigation of
157. 7:57Deborah Seitz what got you started
158. 8:00looking at this case and what is it
159. 8:03meant to you over the years
160. 8:04thanks so much for that
161. 8:07um and I did mention this earlier but
162. 8:09I'm really honored to be here this is a
163. 8:11Duke University is an institution that
164. 8:14welcomed Daryl hunt and gave him an
165. 8:16honorary doctorate and uses his story
166. 8:21um in the with first-year law students
167. 8:23every year as part of the introduction
168. 8:25to the law
169. 8:26um so the story is really important here
170. 8:29on this campus
171. 8:31um
172. 8:32so I got involved with looking into
173. 8:36Daryl Hunt's case when I was a newspaper
174. 8:38reporter at the Winston-Salem Journal
175. 8:40and it's not all that glorious story
176. 8:44um my managing editor got interested in
177. 8:47the case because uh Daryl hunt had filed
178. 8:50a petition for DNA testing
179. 8:53and they I was assigned by him and the
180. 8:57in my other editor Les Gora to take a
181. 9:01close look at the case and see if we
182. 9:03could turn up anything new and that
183. 9:06close look
184. 9:07um took about six months of reading and
185. 9:11interviews and all the things that
186. 9:13investigative journalists do and we
187. 9:17um you know we didn't find anything
188. 9:19brand new but what we did find was a new
189. 9:22way of telling the story and telling the
190. 9:24story as a narrative and a real story
191. 9:27with characters and also looking really
192. 9:30closely at how the police investigate
193. 9:32did investigation had unfolded in this
194. 9:35new way of telling the story was
195. 9:37actually revelatory and really persuaded
196. 9:40a lot of people in Winston-Salem
197. 9:42including the judge who was handling
198. 9:45this new round of DNA testing to see
199. 9:49um this case that everybody thought they
200. 9:51knew to see it in a new way
201. 9:54um and then
202. 9:56um
203. 9:57you know it was probably not probably it
204. 10:00was the most remarkable experience of my
205. 10:03professional life that the work that I
206. 10:06did contributed to his exoneration a
207. 10:08couple of months after after it was
208. 10:11published and then I did what newspaper
209. 10:14reporters do is you know I went to the
210. 10:16next thing and figured figured that I
211. 10:21was pretty much done writing about Daryl
212. 10:23and working with him in a professional
213. 10:26way and I left the newspaper and I
214. 10:29eventually landed at Wake Forest
215. 10:31University where Daryl Hunt's attorney
216. 10:33Mark Rabel runs the Innocence clinic and
217. 10:37I started keeping up more with Daryl and
218. 10:41he would come and talk to my undergrads
219. 10:43much the same way he would talk to
220. 10:45students here at Duke and
221. 10:48um but I really never thought I would
222. 10:50write about him again in fact I was sure
223. 10:53that I wouldn't because I no longer had
224. 10:55that distance that journalists think
225. 10:56they need to have from from their
226. 10:59subject
227. 11:00um and then
228. 11:02um I suppose all that changed for me
229. 11:04when um he was found dead in March of
230. 11:072016 and the shock of it and the sadness
231. 11:12of it and also the the mystery of it we
232. 11:15thought that he was
233. 11:17I knew that he'd had some personal
234. 11:19problems but
235. 11:22um he came out of prison said triumphant
236. 11:25and became such a an important advocate
237. 11:29in North Carolina so many of the reforms
238. 11:31that we have in North Carolina including
239. 11:33the Innocence inquiry commission many of
240. 11:36the police reforms
241. 11:38um
242. 11:39there's a law in North Carolina called
243. 11:41the racial Justice act that has
244. 11:43essentially led to a moratorium on
245. 11:45executions in North Carolina so so many
246. 11:48things happened in North Carolina
247. 11:50because of him that I think I like a lot
248. 11:54of people were blind to the idea the
249. 11:57fact that he was really really
250. 11:59struggling and so when he died
251. 12:03um I suppose the only thing I felt that
252. 12:06I knew how to do that could help in this
253. 12:10not help but
254. 12:12really the only thing I knew how to do
255. 12:14is to grab my reporter's notebook and
256. 12:16put on some jeans and you know run
257. 12:19around town trying to at least track
258. 12:22down what had happened in the last few
259. 12:25days of his life and that led to a
260. 12:28magazine piece and that led to this book
261. 12:31but the question really was what
262. 12:33happened what went wrong here
263. 12:36um in a case that we thought had been a
264. 12:39success in what I ended up writing about
265. 12:42really as a psychological portrait that
266. 12:44looks at the deep deep damage that's
267. 12:48done by our criminal legal system when
268. 12:51it makes such horrific errors and also
269. 12:55the difficulty of coming out of prison
270. 12:57and coming home and
271. 13:00also the difficulty of being an advocate
272. 13:04of having your life story which was so
273. 13:08traumatic and so painful having that
274. 13:11become your life's work so his job
275. 13:14essentially became advocating for both
276. 13:18wrong against wrongful conviction and
277. 13:21also for people coming home from prison
278. 13:23but that meant that he was constantly
279. 13:26reliving this this really horrible
280. 13:29experience
281. 13:31um and so that's what the that's what
282. 13:33this book attempts to do is answer this
283. 13:36question of what happened
284. 13:38let me ask you I want to ask you about
285. 13:40that notion of deep damage yes
286. 13:44um the book speaks to uh the damage that
287. 13:48um Daryl hunt came out of prison
288. 13:52um the harm that was caused to him uh
289. 13:54but the Innocence networks a theme today
290. 13:57is collective impact can you speak about
291. 14:00the more broad damage that his case in
292. 14:04Winston-Salem had within the community
293. 14:08um and legal system there
294. 14:10um
295. 14:11Beyond just the damage that Daryl hunt
296. 14:13himself suffered as a result of his
297. 14:16wrongful connection
298. 14:17yeah so you know I always think in terms
299. 14:20of people and individuals
300. 14:23so this
301. 14:25this
302. 14:27rush to judgment after this horrible
303. 14:29murder happened in 1984 and this desire
304. 14:34to have somebody pay regardless of
305. 14:37whether it was the real killer or not
306. 14:40led the police in Winston-Salem
307. 14:44to ignore a woman who was raped
308. 14:49um
309. 14:50six months after the woman who Daryl was
310. 14:54convicted of killing was raped and this
311. 14:57happened four months before he went to
312. 14:59trials so plenty of time to correct this
313. 15:02wrongful arrest right and the crimes
314. 15:06were very very similar they happened
315. 15:08within two blocks of each other
316. 15:12um they were young white women going to
317. 15:14work early in the morning the second
318. 15:16woman was actually kidnapped
319. 15:20and fought back against a man who was
320. 15:23armed with a gun and a knife but the gun
321. 15:26misfired so she was able to fight for
322. 15:29her life and she survived and she began
323. 15:34asking you know these books partly
324. 15:36because her mother-in-law was really
325. 15:38pushing her she began asking you know
326. 15:41these crimes are so similar could we
327. 15:44look to see if they're related and she
328. 15:47was told no we've got our guy in prison
329. 15:49oh and by the way yes you've identified
330. 15:52somebody but are you really really
331. 15:54really sure because you know if you
332. 15:57decide to press charges if you decide to
333. 16:00pursue this case it'll just be your word
334. 16:02against his just your word against his
335. 16:05so really do you really want us to
336. 16:07charge this guy so I'm I'm so
337. 16:10oversimplifying but she Pro he was not
338. 16:14charged this man that she identified
339. 16:17and she was you know led to believe that
340. 16:21the
341. 16:23that she was wrong and
342. 16:27um so she was denied Justice and she was
343. 16:29horribly mistreated so that's one of the
344. 16:32casualties of of this uh wrongful
345. 16:35conviction of Daryl hunt and then just
346. 16:37the people around him who fought so hard
347. 16:40for him
348. 16:42um and ultimately
349. 16:44we're with him and
350. 16:47you know his death was so painful for
351. 16:50the people who fought for him was so
352. 16:52devastating his attorney has
353. 16:55talked publicly about how there were
354. 16:58times right after Daryl died that he
355. 17:00felt so hopeless that I don't think he
356. 17:02was
357. 17:04seriously suicidal but he was thinking
358. 17:07in that direction and his wife was
359. 17:09devastated and his the man who led his
360. 17:13defense committee
361. 17:15um Larry little who who raised all the
362. 17:18money and rallied everybody in all
363. 17:20mostly black people in the community in
364. 17:22support of Daryl hunt has been
365. 17:25completely devastated by um by Daryl's
366. 17:28death and so that kind of pain ripples
367. 17:32throughout the community
368. 17:34um of course the good that Daryl did in
369. 17:38the world also ripples throughout the
370. 17:40community so it's a there's a lot about
371. 17:43this story that's tragic and painful but
372. 17:45there's a lot about the story that um
373. 17:48that really speaks to the power of one
374. 17:51man
375. 17:52um to leave a legacy and so I think I
376. 17:55mentioned earlier
377. 17:57all these reforms in North Carolina but
378. 17:59the Innocence inquiry commission I think
379. 18:01their work has led to 10 exonerations
380. 18:06um that in a large part is because of
381. 18:09Daryl Hunt's advocacy and the work that
382. 18:13he did for the racial Justice act that's
383. 18:15effectively halted executions in North
384. 18:18Carolina while all these appeals make
385. 18:20their way through the system
386. 18:22um I think they're 135 men and women on
387. 18:27death row in North Carolina and most of
388. 18:29them have appeals pending under the
389. 18:31racial Justice act so that is an
390. 18:33enormous impact and then there are
391. 18:36hundreds of people in Winston-Salem who
392. 18:39were came home from prison and worked
393. 18:41with his project and were mentored by
394. 18:43him and at least in the early days of
395. 18:45his project
396. 18:47um they found that the recidivism rate
397. 18:49for people who'd gone through his
398. 18:51project was around 10 percent compared
399. 18:54to an enormous recidivism rate that's
400. 18:57generally true so there are individuals
401. 19:00in Winston-Salem who who I hope are
402. 19:03still you know in the community because
403. 19:07of the work that he did
404. 19:09um
405. 19:09and then you know he had friends his one
406. 19:12of his closest friends who figures
407. 19:13heavily in the book Daryl um loaned him
408. 19:16money to set up his construction
409. 19:17business after he got home from prison
410. 19:20and he's got his construction business
411. 19:22and you know his has led uh has ladle
412. 19:27a full life since he got out of prison
413. 19:31so that is because of Daryl it's really
414. 19:33impressive to hear about the Ripple
415. 19:35effects of his advocacy
416. 19:37[Music]
417. 19:38um it's a cautionary Tale in a way to
418. 19:40also then hear about the ripple effect
419. 19:43of his harm
420. 19:45um and I'm wondering if you have a
421. 19:46thought about
422. 19:48um you know there's a lot of exonerees
423. 19:51um that are watching today the prior
424. 19:53panel
425. 19:54um in the Innocence networks live stream
426. 19:56was people who had been incarcerated
427. 19:58wrongly discussing their advocacy today
428. 20:02and you recently went to the Innocence
429. 20:04Network Conference and met exoneries and
430. 20:07and almost
431. 20:09well many of them speak about their
432. 20:12desires to get involved in advocacy as
433. 20:14well
434. 20:15um but what does Daryl hunk's life
435. 20:18um what lessons can be learned about the
436. 20:20burden we place on exoneries is
437. 20:24Advocate activists and people wanting to
438. 20:27share share their story to move the
439. 20:30needle for criminal reform
440. 20:33but in Daryl's life it obviously had a
441. 20:35really strong impact on him and
442. 20:38ultimately maybe even result in his
443. 20:39death yeah
444. 20:41so I think that for Daryl you know he
445. 20:45wanted to do this work it gave him
446. 20:47meaning and purpose also just to be
447. 20:50blunt and straightforward he really
448. 20:52wasn't qualified for any other kind of
449. 20:55work he tried to get a job with a state
450. 20:57agency that did re-entry work and you
451. 21:00know he had no resume
452. 21:01but he also really wanted to do the work
453. 21:04I think it gave him purpose
454. 21:08um but yeah the warning is that it's
455. 21:10very very painful and difficult and I
456. 21:14suppose
457. 21:16you know looking back I mean My Wish for
458. 21:19him would have been that he could have
459. 21:22gotten some really good therapy and
460. 21:25taken a taken a break and
461. 21:29found a way to heal himself or to get
462. 21:32help healing
463. 21:34um but I don't know that those resources
464. 21:36are there and
465. 21:38um and also he wanted to do the work so
466. 21:41I think there's a tension for anybody in
467. 21:43this situation that he was in
468. 21:46um between wanting to do this and being
469. 21:49aware of of the cost of doing this kind
470. 21:52of work
471. 21:53um and then in his case you know there
472. 21:56was a documentary made about him so he
473. 21:58became he really had this sort of
474. 22:00celebrity life for a little bit of time
475. 22:02which also added to to the burden
476. 22:05um the other thing that I know he warned
477. 22:07people about was
478. 22:10um what happens if you receive money and
479. 22:12what happened to him was
480. 22:15um you know everybody in his old
481. 22:16neighborhood knew about it and he was
482. 22:19constantly getting harassed by people he
483. 22:21knew
484. 22:22from growing up he was constantly
485. 22:24getting harassed for for money and he
486. 22:28did talk about that as this sense of
487. 22:30betrayal that people that he couldn't
488. 22:32trust what people
489. 22:34um
490. 22:35you know what people wanted from him and
491. 22:38it wasn't that he had this enormous
492. 22:39amount of money
493. 22:41but it was in the paper and so everybody
494. 22:43knew about it and I think there's a lot
495. 22:46of warning there and really thinking
496. 22:49about
497. 22:51um how to manage any kind of
498. 22:53compensation you get from the state or
499. 22:55if you win a settlement because of civil
500. 22:58rights violations you know how to manage
501. 23:01that how to take care of yourselves and
502. 23:04how to heal I think is are all Lessons
503. 23:07From Daryl's life
504. 23:10you you spoke about his desire
505. 23:14to help everybody with re-entry uh it's
506. 23:18interesting because it seems like he
507. 23:19really struggled with re-entry yeah
508. 23:22which goes back to the question whether
509. 23:24he was qualified
510. 23:26um to be that person helping those
511. 23:29people coming home yeah
512. 23:31um you know do you think there was any
513. 23:34lessons to be learned about
514. 23:36um how his foundation itself
515. 23:38um operated where I believe you're right
516. 23:40in the book
517. 23:42the door was open for everyone and Daryl
518. 23:43was the one making the decisions and
519. 23:45helping people
520. 23:46um do you think there's any lessons to
521. 23:48be learned about how one can protect
522. 23:50themselves while also serving their
523. 23:53advocacy goals yeah well I mean I think
524. 23:57Daryl was immensely qualified to Mentor
525. 24:00people I mean that's borne out by the
526. 24:03recidivism rate and the people that he
527. 24:05worked with I think he was just so
528. 24:07committed but
529. 24:09um there's a big difference between
530. 24:10running an organization and having a set
531. 24:13of ideals or beliefs and
532. 24:16and there was um
533. 24:20first of all I don't know that that
534. 24:22organization ever could agree on what
535. 24:25their goals were
536. 24:27so
537. 24:28um there they had a board but the board
538. 24:30um all had different ideas of what they
539. 24:33wanted to be working on and and again
540. 24:40Daryl wasn't a manager he wasn't a
541. 24:43non-profit manager he wasn't a grants at
542. 24:46writer I mean he was a human being who
543. 24:50had an incredible amount of wisdom and a
544. 24:53lot of insight to share
545. 24:55um but I I think he just took that
546. 24:58personal responsibility so far but a lot
547. 25:03of people who do this kind of work do
548. 25:05that right like it's people who do this
549. 25:08kind of work are are nine to five errors
550. 25:11and aren't there's not a lot of
551. 25:13separation between between your personal
552. 25:17life and and your professional life so I
553. 25:19think he fell into the same trap that a
554. 25:22lot of people who do advocacy fall into
555. 25:27um
556. 25:28but I think yeah I think it is important
557. 25:30to realize that having an idea and a set
558. 25:33of ideals is not the same thing as
559. 25:36running an organization making it
560. 25:39financially sound and having you know
561. 25:42reasonable business practices
562. 25:45let me ask you
563. 25:47um a little bit about what made this
564. 25:49conviction so deep in Daryl to help
565. 25:53others one thing that's in your book
566. 25:56um
567. 25:57that you know hasn't been a part of the
568. 26:00story
569. 26:01is a lot of letters that Daryl himself
570. 26:05wrote yeah while he was incarcerated
571. 26:09um and those letters speak to the pain
572. 26:11and Hope
573. 26:12both that he faced while incarcerated
574. 26:14and then you know at times that he held
575. 26:18on to the conviction of being free
576. 26:19someday
577. 26:20um what what do the letters sort of mean
578. 26:23to you and what is the new thing added
579. 26:26to his story about your ability to read
580. 26:28those letters yeah so I'm going to go
581. 26:31back just a little bit to who who Daryl
582. 26:34was in his core
583. 26:37um and then I'll speak to what he wrote
584. 26:39about in his letters but he it's
585. 26:43remarkable to me but even at the age of
586. 26:4619
587. 26:47he had this kind of core sense of
588. 26:52responsibility and integrity so when he
589. 26:55was first arrested
590. 26:58um the D.A tried to bribe him and
591. 27:00offered him twelve thousand dollars if
592. 27:02he would just finger his best friend and
593. 27:04he wouldn't do it and then when he was
594. 27:0725 and facing a second trial
595. 27:12um in the case in which he was wrongly
596. 27:13convicted and a second trial in another
597. 27:16case that he was acquitted in he was
598. 27:18offered a plea deal for time served and
599. 27:21he turned it down even though everybody
600. 27:23except for one Minister encouraged him
601. 27:26to take it
602. 27:28um and so that also takes
603. 27:31incredible Integrity
604. 27:33um I don't know of many people who who
605. 27:36would do that and one of the things I
606. 27:39learned about his time in prison is that
607. 27:42even from very early on
608. 27:44one he was concerned about the other men
609. 27:48in prison with him so there was a diary
610. 27:52entry from
611. 27:54oh in the second year he was a in this
612. 27:58youth prison that I've suddenly
613. 28:00forgotten the name of but they called it
614. 28:02little Alcatraz so it was the most
615. 28:04secure prison in North Carolina and they
616. 28:07would just put all the men 18 to 21 or
617. 28:1024 like how they thought that was a good
618. 28:13idea is beyond me and the conditions in
619. 28:16that prison were it was really really
620. 28:17hot and the food was horrible but it was
621. 28:21the Heat and the and the water was hot
622. 28:23and even then he would have been 21 he
623. 28:27was writing about that nobody deserved
624. 28:29to to live like this so he wasn't he
625. 28:32wasn't trying to set himself apart from
626. 28:34everybody else he wasn't in there
627. 28:36thinking oh I'm innocent and I'm better
628. 28:38and everybody else here is guilty and
629. 28:41they deserve this he didn't have that
630. 28:44sense of of himself and then later on he
631. 28:48was in prison and he was at Caledonia
632. 28:51which is North Carolina's equivalent of
633. 28:54Angola or parchment you know those
634. 28:56prison farms in Louisiana in Texas where
635. 28:59we have one in North Carolina
636. 29:01and a man died and the guards wouldn't
637. 29:05get a medical treatment and then you
638. 29:08know other inmates started to
639. 29:11there you know there was a risk of uh
640. 29:13violence and so then they all got in
641. 29:15trouble and Daryl hunt started a
642. 29:18petition
643. 29:19um trying to
644. 29:21expose what had happened to this man who
645. 29:23died for lack of medical care and then
646. 29:26he was really young he was not 30 when
647. 29:28when he did this and he also became a
648. 29:31Muslim
649. 29:32um his first or second year in prison
650. 29:35and depending on
651. 29:38um which prison camp he was at he was
652. 29:40often recognized as a leader um within
653. 29:44that Community he was often the Iman in
654. 29:46in whatever prison he was in and so
655. 29:51um
656. 29:52he always had this sense of of
657. 29:56responsibility for the for other people
658. 29:59around him and
659. 30:01um
660. 30:03what another thing that his letters
661. 30:05revealed though is the
662. 30:08the despair that he was experiencing
663. 30:12um in this period of time that to me
664. 30:14always felt like nothing was happening
665. 30:15you know we see the trials we see things
666. 30:19happen it's out in the public eye and
667. 30:21then there was 10 years that he was in
668. 30:23prison while his appellate attorneys
669. 30:26Road briefs and went to court and it was
670. 30:30always hard to know well what's the
671. 30:32impact of all this on Daryl hunt because
672. 30:35you didn't see him and and he wasn't
673. 30:38really communicating this with his
674. 30:41attorneys but you could get glimpses of
675. 30:44of the despair that that he felt in some
676. 30:48of the letters each time he was defeated
677. 30:51um he would write that this time he
678. 30:53didn't know how he was going to take it
679. 30:57um and he became very eloquent also
680. 30:59about
681. 31:00the passage of time and just how hard it
682. 31:04was
683. 31:05to endure this amount of time
684. 31:10um
685. 31:11one thing that people don't often focus
686. 31:15on or know too much about in the story
687. 31:17is at that period of time when he was
688. 31:21facing a second trial in the sites
689. 31:23um murder right when he was still
690. 31:25charged in that other murder for which
691. 31:27he was acquitted right he was actually
692. 31:29at home yes released yes living with
693. 31:33um his Iman right
694. 31:35um the Griggs family and he met April
695. 31:37Clark
696. 31:38what does his letters say about April
697. 31:42their relationship and what she meant to
698. 31:45him
699. 31:46so what she meant to him and him to her
700. 31:49but I'm going to talk more to what she
701. 31:50meant to him so he met this young woman
702. 31:53when he was
703. 31:55um in his mid-20s when he was out on
704. 31:57Bond and then
705. 32:00um he went back to prison
706. 32:02she had another child she got married
707. 32:05then she got divorced in the late 90s so
708. 32:08she never forgot him and so she looked
709. 32:11him up and went to visit and they
710. 32:15um they had been very close before he
711. 32:17went to prison and they really really
712. 32:20really connected and so it was you know
713. 32:22this beautiful love story and
714. 32:26this all their courtship all happened
715. 32:28during this period of time that
716. 32:31well I suppose she contacted him right
717. 32:33after he'd failed in the North Carolina
718. 32:35court system but things were just moving
719. 32:39into the federal courts
720. 32:41and so it was this period of time when
721. 32:44he was really despairing and really it
722. 32:48didn't seem like he was ever going to
723. 32:49get out and she just she fell and they
724. 32:52fell in love and she
725. 32:55um stuck by him and she visited him
726. 32:58every other weekend and
727. 33:01he would talk about how she was his Rock
728. 33:05um but it's also clear
729. 33:07um you know there was one time that he
730. 33:09called and you know it wasn't clear what
731. 33:12had happened but somebody picked up the
732. 33:13phone and hung up it was probably one of
733. 33:15her kids she had kids and and he took
734. 33:18this as a rejection and
735. 33:21um this comes from his journals but he
736. 33:23was so devastated by that that he almost
737. 33:25considered
738. 33:27um jumping the fence which you know as
739. 33:29prison speak for for committing suicide
740. 33:32said this this this this love was just
741. 33:37um that she gave had for him
742. 33:42um was so profoundly important to him
743. 33:45and I suppose part of the sadness of
744. 33:48what happened
745. 33:49after afterwards I mean he came home he
746. 33:52was married
747. 33:54um they lived together but
748. 33:57um you know he'd gone to prison at 19
749. 33:59and what I've heard other people speak
750. 34:01about you come out you're not really
751. 34:02ready for
752. 34:05um a relationship family life to be a
753. 34:08stepfather and so their marriage was
754. 34:10really really difficult and ultimately
755. 34:12ultimately failed
756. 34:15if any of you look up the magazine
757. 34:18article there's a video Yeah clip yeah
758. 34:22uh it's about a 12-minute clip and April
759. 34:24posted it was it just before
760. 34:27she posted it I think she posted it
761. 34:30right after he died and they were
762. 34:31divorced and they were actually not
763. 34:35supposed to be in contact with each
764. 34:37other
765. 34:38um by court order because there'd been
766. 34:40an allegation of um domestic violence
767. 34:43but they they were divorced that they
768. 34:46kept seeing each other on the slide like
769. 34:48they really had such a profound
770. 34:51connection and yeah it was about a year
771. 34:53before he died and you know they were he
772. 34:57had a convertible and they were driving
773. 34:58in the countryside and listening to r b
774. 35:02and it was just it was a really
775. 35:04beautiful
776. 35:05um
777. 35:07joyful
778. 35:09um snippet yeah he Daryl looks thrilled
779. 35:13as they're moving in this convertible
780. 35:15down the road
781. 35:16um so I would encourage you all to look
782. 35:17at that article up and watch that video
783. 35:20to see sort of the best of Daryl when he
784. 35:23was just sort of carefree and enjoying
785. 35:25his life yeah
786. 35:26um regrettably
787. 35:28you know it took until 2004.
788. 35:31uh before Daryl was ultimately
789. 35:33exonerated but that came after DNA
790. 35:37testing
791. 35:38excluded him as the source of DNA at the
792. 35:41scene yes in 1994. yes
793. 35:44um it's extraordinary isn't it
794. 35:46well in light of that have we learned
795. 35:50anything in North Carolina as a result
796. 35:52of Daryl's wrongful conviction in the
797. 35:54adamant uh
798. 35:57atomics and prosecutors during that
799. 35:5910-year period that they still had the
800. 36:02right guy incarcerated
801. 36:04um
802. 36:06well some of us have learned a lot
803. 36:09um
804. 36:10very diplomatic
805. 36:13um so that's correct so just to clarify
806. 36:18the storyline in 1994 there was DNA
807. 36:21evidence that showed he was not the
808. 36:23rapist and and the
809. 36:27so the first hearing was before in in
810. 36:30post-convention work the first hearing
811. 36:32was in before a local judge in in
812. 36:34Winston-Salem so and it was the
813. 36:37prosecutor defending the case and these
814. 36:40defenses continued
815. 36:43and the arguments for why this DNA
816. 36:48evidence didn't matter became more and
817. 36:50more and more ludicrous to the point
818. 36:53that there were arguments that you know
819. 36:56he could have raped her but excuse me
820. 36:58but not ejaculated or
821. 37:02um somebody else could have raped her
822. 37:04who nobody had ever identified who
823. 37:06nobody had ever seen who nobody had ever
824. 37:08mentioned that person could have raped
825. 37:11her and then Daryl hunt could have come
826. 37:13along and stabbed her 13 times
827. 37:15it it was Preposterous but it held all
828. 37:20the way through the federal court of
829. 37:22appeals and then the Supreme Court
830. 37:24didn't decided not to hear the case
831. 37:27and so there is just this incredible
832. 37:31resistance to
833. 37:33um
834. 37:34on the part of prosecutors and Attorneys
835. 37:37General to to admit that they've made a
836. 37:41mistake somewhere along the way or to
837. 37:42admit that the system doesn't work and
838. 37:44there's we we still cling to finality in
839. 37:48our in our court system and I don't
840. 37:51actually understand why that is I don't
841. 37:53understand why when we've had how many
842. 37:56wrongful convictions in North Carolina
843. 37:58gosh I don't know the exact number well
844. 38:00there's 3 000 in the United States three
845. 38:02thousand in the United States and
846. 38:03there's somewhere about more than 20 in
847. 38:06North Carolina why I don't understand
848. 38:09why it's so hard for
849. 38:12prosecutors and why prosecutors in the
850. 38:17Attorney General cling to defending
851. 38:19these cases I don't understand it
852. 38:23um
853. 38:26did you ever think in 2003 when your
854. 38:29editor asks you to write about Daryl
855. 38:32hunt
856. 38:33um that he would have such an impact on
857. 38:36your life when we talk about Collective
858. 38:39impacts right and you know
859. 38:42where your life would be today which is
860. 38:45writing this book beyond innocence
861. 38:47speaking of the life sentence of Daryl
862. 38:49hunt which is a title I'm certain was
863. 38:52selected not to identify the sentence
864. 38:56you received in court but to speak about
865. 38:58the life he had as a result of being
866. 39:01charged in the first place exactly so
867. 39:03the the title comes from an interview he
868. 39:06gave where he talks about how once
869. 39:09you're convicted you might as it doesn't
870. 39:11matter what sentence you actually
871. 39:12receive it might as well be a life
872. 39:14sentence because you live with it
873. 39:16forever
874. 39:18um so no did I ever think
875. 39:22no I actually was not particularly
876. 39:25pleased with the assignment because it
877. 39:28it just I I didn't really think that I
878. 39:32would find anything because he had been
879. 39:36as as
880. 39:38many of us know a lot of cases of
881. 39:41wrongful conviction are are cases that
882. 39:44nobody's ever heard about or cases that
883. 39:46people have forgotten about this was not
884. 39:48a forgotten case and Daryl hunt had some
885. 39:51of the best attorneys in in the state in
886. 39:54the country representing him and he so
887. 39:58many people had reinvestigated it I
888. 40:00thought what is one newspaper reporter
889. 40:02I'm going to be able to find that that
890. 40:05nobody else has ever found so I just
891. 40:09sort of thought I was in for
892. 40:11I thought I was going down a rabbit hole
893. 40:14and then in a couple of months we would
894. 40:16just say that was a waste of time you
895. 40:18didn't find anything so that's what I
896. 40:20actually thought the thing that um that
897. 40:23I learned from this case was really how
898. 40:26to tell us well I learned about the
899. 40:30power of
900. 40:31storytelling and writing and how to tell
901. 40:34a story in a new way and also that the
902. 40:37the way and I I can't articulate this
903. 40:40all that well but the way that evidence
904. 40:42comes out in court is doesn't always
905. 40:46tell the story and is compelling a way
906. 40:48as the way evidence is the way a
907. 40:50journalist or a writer can tell the
908. 40:53story using the same evidence because
909. 40:55you have to follow All the Rules of
910. 40:58Evidence and the way you bring it out
911. 41:00and it can make for a very confusing
912. 41:02story
913. 41:04um and so it changed you know it changed
914. 41:08um
915. 41:08changed me as a writer and taught me how
916. 41:11to to really write a a deep long form
917. 41:15narrative story I suppose
918. 41:18affected had on me and it probably led
919. 41:19to me landing at Wake Forest because by
920. 41:22then I had people in in the English
921. 41:25Department at Wake Forest had read it so
922. 41:27I suppose they thought of me as as a
923. 41:30writer who could teach something and
924. 41:34um and it certainly led to me writing
925. 41:36writing this book
926. 41:38in the book another thing that's really
927. 41:41um
928. 41:42it's hard to read just sort of knowing
929. 41:45the aftermath yeah but it's um Mark
930. 41:48Rabel
931. 41:50talking to Daryl
932. 41:51and he's asking Daryl he he wanted to
933. 41:55get very personal with him and he asked
934. 41:57Daryl what he wants oh my gosh for his
935. 42:00life yeah and Daryl describes that all
936. 42:04he wants is to live a decent yeah life
937. 42:07yeah
938. 42:08um you know hearing the list of
939. 42:11accomplishments I think we can certainly
940. 42:13say Daryl lived a decent life in the end
941. 42:17and it was so much more because he did
942. 42:18so many amazing things here in North
943. 42:20Carolina but you know Mark well
944. 42:24um and and I'm not asking you to speak
945. 42:26for Mark
946. 42:28um but I'm asking you if you can to
947. 42:32describe the relationship that Daryl had
948. 42:35with his attorney and how that can
949. 42:37inform All The Advocates and attorneys
950. 42:40who are working with uh people who are
951. 42:43incarcerated before they're releasing
952. 42:45when they come home
953. 42:48yeah so I I'm not speaking for Mark but
954. 42:51I write a lot about this in in the book
955. 42:53because
956. 42:54um Mark was so generous with his time
957. 42:57and giving me interviews and giving me a
958. 43:00manuscript he wrote that he never
959. 43:02published about this case plus all of
960. 43:06his papers that he donated to the Wake
961. 43:09Forest Law School and is now in the form
962. 43:11of an archive
963. 43:13um and I think
964. 43:16initially he felt and I've heard other
965. 43:19people who do this kind of work say this
966. 43:21he felt so responsible for Daryl and it
967. 43:25started off as a death penalty case so
968. 43:27he felt the burden of of believing that
969. 43:31his client was innocent and the burden
970. 43:35of having to save his life so that was
971. 43:37the first
972. 43:38sense of responsibility that he had and
973. 43:42then
974. 43:43um he just talked about this actually
975. 43:45the other day the thing that kept him
976. 43:47going throughout all of this was both
977. 43:50Daryl's personality and this affection
978. 43:54that they had for each other and also
979. 43:57there were all these other people in
980. 43:58Winston-Salem who who believed in Daryl
981. 44:02so there was Larry little who organized
982. 44:04this defense committee there were
983. 44:07ministers there were other attorneys who
984. 44:10then joined the work later on and in a
985. 44:14way they kind of became like a family I
986. 44:17mean and I don't know if other
987. 44:19um others doing this work have this
988. 44:21feeling but they they really I mean
989. 44:25there was more than just um
990. 44:28professional connection it it really
991. 44:30felt to him like a family and
992. 44:34um
993. 44:35after Daryl was exonerated I think you
994. 44:39know he had always sort of felt like his
995. 44:41protector or you know that was his role
996. 44:43his Champion his yeah his protector and
997. 44:46then after Daryl was exonerated I think
998. 44:49they've moved their relationship changed
999. 44:51and they really became
1000. 44:54um friends and it became I think a
1001. 44:56little bit more of a a little bit more
1002. 44:58of an equal relationship
1003. 45:01um that
1004. 45:03it I mean it was certainly the defining
1005. 45:05case of his career it also harmed his
1006. 45:08career in many ways because people in
1007. 45:10Winston-Salem thought a lot of other
1008. 45:13lawyers kind of thought he'd
1009. 45:16literally gone off the deep end like why
1010. 45:18was he continuing to defend this guy who
1011. 45:22um everybody else seemed to think was
1012. 45:24guilty so it harmed his career in that
1013. 45:26regard and then it shaped his career and
1014. 45:29that he you know he's devoted his life
1015. 45:32to doing this kind of work
1016. 45:35um we're running out of time
1017. 45:37but you mentioned Duke laws role or
1018. 45:40Duke's role as an institution
1019. 45:42uh that Daryl uh had to us here at Duke
1020. 45:47um he had a closeness I know to you in
1021. 45:50that you guys uh saw each other
1022. 45:52frequently after his exoneration
1023. 45:55um and and we feel at Duke and I don't
1024. 45:57know if you feel this way a bit of a
1025. 45:59responsibility to Daryl and his legacy
1026. 46:03um and I'm grateful to you for this book
1027. 46:05in the way
1028. 46:07um that you share his legacy
1029. 46:09um recognizing his faults but so
1030. 46:13um very in such a very uh expert way
1031. 46:16capturing his Humanity
1032. 46:19um so thank you for that uh I wanted to
1033. 46:22just say as we wrap up any final words
1034. 46:25that you want to leave
1035. 46:27um with our audience today our students
1036. 46:30uh The Advocates or exoneries that are
1037. 46:32watching
1038. 46:33um about your book or anything else
1039. 46:35well this question of responsibility
1040. 46:38I'll just follow up on that for a second
1041. 46:40which is I I think that that is what
1042. 46:43motivated me
1043. 46:45to look into his case which eventually
1044. 46:48to look into his death which eventually
1045. 46:51led to his book was I had this just this
1046. 46:55feeling that I had missed something that
1047. 46:57I never I thought I told a story but
1048. 46:59that I hadn't really told his story and
1049. 47:03it yeah it felt like
1050. 47:06um I'm not a lawyer but I am a writer
1051. 47:09and a journalist in that I felt a duty
1052. 47:13um to try to get the story right and
1053. 47:16tell the full complexity of of of a
1054. 47:19story that that I had not that I thought
1055. 47:21I'd told and had not completely told
1056. 47:24so
1057. 47:26um I don't know that it
1058. 47:29it's very hard to think that you're
1059. 47:31doing something for somebody after their
1060. 47:34death and in fact I think some people
1061. 47:36would
1062. 47:37people who were some people who were
1063. 47:39close to him would criticize me for
1064. 47:41looking into things telling a part of
1065. 47:45his story that he hadn't told other
1066. 47:47people but I feel like it's important
1067. 47:51for all of us to be allowed to be fully
1068. 47:54human and fully who we are and not just
1069. 47:58um
1070. 47:58reduced to a myth or an advocate or a
1071. 48:02poster child of who we are and that's
1072. 48:04that was really ultimately my motivation
1073. 48:07in telling his full story warts and all
1074. 48:10well his full story is really important
1075. 48:13to everybody who Advocates on behalf of
1076. 48:16the innocent so on behalf of Duke uh the
1077. 48:20Duke Law Innocence Project and the
1078. 48:22Innocence Network thank you so much for
1079. 48:24joining us today