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Ben Ferencz: Last Living Nuremberg Trials Prosecutor — Transcript

by Surviving The Survivor: #BestGuests in True Crime · 11,225 words · 2,008 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00welcome to the global phenomenon
0:02surviving the survivor
0:04if you have a mom you'll love our
0:06podcast
0:08[Music]
0:14put this part when i said it will be
0:16anticlimactic put this part in whoever
0:19edits it
0:20and carmela's starting off the show with
0:22a little negativity i'll tell you why
0:24it's going to be anticlimactic today and
0:26it's because we live in a generation now
0:29and i'm gonna scold everyone from 82 in
0:31front of me on down
0:33we have today on the show
0:35a living
0:36breathing
0:38walking
0:40piece of history
0:41and he's 102 years old
0:44he was
0:45the lead prosecutor at the nuremberg
0:48trials which is where they
0:50uh
0:51brought to justice nazi war criminals
0:54he's 102 so he's not speaking in little
0:57sound bites and he's not whizzing
0:59through things like we do on tick tock
1:01and instagram
1:02but if you're listening to this podcast
1:04and you turn it off he's got no
1:06attention span like a fly because of
1:09mark zuckerberg and these other morons
1:11in the world i admonish you you better
1:13listen to this podcast out of all our
1:15podcasts but before we get
1:17to the main schmooze with ben ferenz who
1:19we already spoke to which is why i can
1:21tell you that he did not speak in sound
1:23bites
1:24i want to tell you about myself for a
1:25moment oh god don't do that it's i
1:28really i'm going i was so stressed last
1:31night i'll tell you why carmel had you
1:33ever heard of a capuchin monkey
1:36you know what this is so stupid
1:51what is acceptable to me carmel's got a
1:54lot of issues the last couple days but i
1:56had to cover
1:58two monkeys named gilligan and bert who
2:01are strapped onto the backs of two dogs
2:04and they ride them dressed in jockey
2:07outfits around a track aren't you
2:10embarrassed
2:13the editor to cut it out
2:15you know we should stuff with this today
2:17the reason i bring it up is these animal
2:19rights activists are as hard-nosed as
2:23prosecutors and they were texting me
2:25last night and they gave me a headache
2:27because i was like i'm gonna get yelled
2:29at by the station because at the end of
2:31my story
2:32i spoke truth to power the animal rights
2:35activist said that these monkeys are
2:37mistreated and the owner the monkey said
2:39that they eat at the dining room table
2:42and i put that in my tag which is the
2:44end of the story and i said you know
2:46what i shouldn't have said that because
2:48the animal rights activists are going to
2:50scream at me because i said the monkeys
2:52eat at the dining room table and you
2:54know what i didn't hear a word from
2:55anyone
2:56you want to know very honest we're going
2:58to be right back this shows an inferior
3:00intelligence that after a man like this
3:03you had to use this story you do me a
3:05favor cover your tracks and don't
3:08don't tell this story we're gonna be
3:10right back on the main schmooze with ben
3:13ferenz f-e-r-e-n-c-z
3:16google him listen if you tune it out
3:19because you're bored because he does not
3:21speak in sound bites shame on you right
3:24back
3:25with a living legend
3:27do you want to help my son
3:30his company content partners media
3:33specializes in brand video and content
3:37creation for innovative companies
3:40and others
3:42please go to www
3:45dot
3:48and hire him i repeat
3:51please go to
3:52www.contentpartnersmedia.com
3:54[Music]
4:03welcome back to surviving the survivor
4:06[Music]
4:11it's time now for the main schmooze
4:16carm of all the guests we've had and i
4:18know you say this frequently but i can
4:20unequivocally say that
4:22the guest today is the most interesting
4:26uh guest we've had not just because of
4:28what he accomplished in his lifetime but
4:30also
4:31where he is in his lifetime he's been on
4:33this earth for more than a century we
4:36are talking about
4:38ben ferenz who is the
4:40last living
4:42prosecutor and the chief prosecutor from
4:45the nuremberg trials are you excited to
4:47speak with him
4:49i am very excited
4:51and i am really looking forward to it
4:54ben can i call you ben or do i have to
4:57call you mr friends of course man it's
4:59fine okay let me tell the audience a
5:01little bit about you it would probably
5:03take me about a decade to get through
5:04your bio but i've done it in a shorter
5:07amount of time and let me let them like
5:09have these shades pulled up a little bit
5:11so that you don't see me and being
5:13sliced no you look fantastic the way you
5:16are the women the women will love you
5:19the way you look right now
5:20stay where we are we don't want to
5:22change that yes all right so let me tell
5:24the audience first of all do you have a
5:26street named after you i didn't think so
5:28but ben ferenz does
5:30ben's dean at harvard law allowed him to
5:32finish school before he entered the army
5:35as an infantryman during his military
5:38career he was awarded five battle stars
5:41landing on normandy beach before helping
5:43liberate nazi death camps post-war he
5:46was referred by his mentor at harvard
5:49law eventually becoming the chief
5:51prosecutor at the first of 13 nuremberg
5:54trials where he went 22 for 22 that is
5:58100 percent on convictions
6:00including 13 death sentences for nazi
6:03war criminals but he wasn't done there
6:06he went on to help create the
6:07international criminal court he was just
6:10nominated for the congressional gold
6:12medal it is the highest
6:14civilian honor in america
6:17it was won by some other people you may
6:19have heard of like martin luther king jr
6:22rosa parks nelson mandela and mother
6:25teresa who reminds me of my lovely
6:27mother and did we mention ben is
6:30102 years old and he still works he's at
6:34his desk right now where he responds to
6:36100 plus emails a day i had the pleasure
6:40of meeting ben
6:41on monday night where i did a story on
6:44him uh for my other job which is a
6:47journalist for a tv network but uh
6:51ben
6:53when we did the interview together i
6:55asked you a question at the end i said
6:57what is one question
7:00out of the bazillion interviews that you
7:02have done that no reporter has ever
7:04asked you that you wish they did ask you
7:07and i think your response was
7:09why do you do what you do is that right
7:13if you say that's right i guess it's
7:14right so so ben why do you and why did
7:17you do what you did
7:20i do what i do because i have no choice
7:24uh i have no choice in the sense that i
7:27truly was traumatized by my wartime
7:30experiences
7:31and uh particularly in the liberation of
7:34several nazi concentration camps which
7:38were still in action when i got there
7:41and the crematorium was still going the
7:43dead bodies were lying on the ground
7:45they couldn't tell if they were dead or
7:47alive
7:48people
7:49who had been humans crawling in the
7:52piles of garbage looking for a piece of
7:55bread to steal their starvation
7:58that's a scene which
8:01i can never forget and have trouble
8:03talking about
8:06and
8:06i asked myself why am i doing all this
8:09and i i have no choice
8:12i believe
8:14that i have found the answer
8:17uh
8:17to what we need to do
8:20and i have to persuade more people in
8:22the country and in the world
8:25that the answer that i'm putting forward
8:27is the only sensible one and i try to
8:30make it very simple it's law
8:33not war
8:35uh
8:36in wartime we kill
8:37millions of innocent people
8:40if we turn to the rule of law even if
8:42it's a bad decision it will save those
8:45lives and enable the world to go forward
8:48in a more humane war way that they do
8:51now
8:52so with that as a goal knowing that i
8:54cannot achieve it in my lifetime
8:57uh i've made good progress
9:00we have made good progress but it will
9:02take perhaps several generations still
9:05to learn that law is better than war
9:09and if they have any doubts
9:11they will soon find out
9:13because i am
9:15aware
9:17that most people are not
9:18that the united states
9:21now have the
9:22power from cyberspace
9:25to cut off the electrical grid on planet
9:28earth
9:29and that would mean killing everybody on
9:31this planet
9:33and i got that
9:34when it was still a secret at least 10
9:36years ago from an american army general
9:40um who was in charge of it at the
9:42pentagon
9:43and knowing
9:45that we possess even greater
9:48destructive weapons
9:50than uh
9:52now obsolete nuclear weapons
9:55uh
9:56i feel i cannot stop trying to persuade
9:59the young people in particular that
10:01their lives are at stake and uh
10:05it's not something i do for amusement or
10:07for medals i mean i'm very grateful for
10:10the
10:10honors bestowed upon me by people who
10:13share my vision
10:15but uh
10:16it's a
10:17live problem today
10:19we spend billions of dollars today
10:23to kill more people instead of using the
10:26money to help the legitimate complaints
10:29of people who are desperate
10:31so that's the world in which we live as
10:34i see it
10:35i'm trying to change it i'm grateful for
10:38your help and the help of others who
10:40share my vision
10:41and i'm hopeful that
10:44it will
10:45it takes the courage
10:47not to be discouraged
10:49and i hope we'll have the courage to
10:51continue and i'm grateful for your help
10:54ben let's take a step back and sort of
10:56set the table so you were born it's
10:58interesting you told me your sister was
11:00born in hungary in the same bed but you
11:02were born in romania in the same bed
11:06um
11:06my mother is from yugoslavia by the way
11:09my lovely mother to my left
11:12and your right is a survivor herself um
11:15and we can get into that story in a few
11:18minutes but i want to hear what was your
11:20childhood like and i know you grew up in
11:22new york city so tell us how you got to
11:25new york and what life in new york was
11:27like before your
11:28life in the army began
11:30to explain how it came about that my
11:32sister was born in another country but
11:34in the same bed
11:36they changed the borders when it was at
11:38the first world war they split up
11:41hungary and romania and
11:44try to
11:45have the
11:48racial groups
11:50divided equally
11:52but i learned then it doesn't matter
11:55what you call the country it matters how
11:57you treat the inhabitants
11:59and both hungary and romania were
12:01anti-semitic
12:03and uh so my parents were well advised
12:07as soon as they could raise enough money
12:09for a ticket
12:10even if it was
12:13third class
12:14the only reason they went third class
12:16was there was no fourth class
12:18and we sailed for
12:20past the statue of liberty
12:23and uh
12:24try to settle in the united states
12:28carmelo do you i think carmelo is
12:30chomping at the bit here with a question
12:32no first i want to introduce myself
12:36and
12:37i i it's it's beyond
12:40an honor i don't know if there is a
12:42higher level than an honor
12:45you know uh because i never in my
12:48wildest dreams thought that i would ever
12:51ever have the opportunity to talk to you
12:53directly it's like
12:56i mean you achieved things in life and
12:59you went uh
13:00to to heights that
13:02i i that any jewish mother would be
13:04proud of that any jewish mother would be
13:07proud of and
13:08you know um
13:10i think what is interesting in the
13:13speaking of your childhood i was born in
13:15yugoslavia
13:16two years later in the same town where i
13:19was born it became hungary
13:22then after world war ii it became
13:24yugoslavia again and we it became
13:27serbia so on that one level i beat you
13:30because you were in two countries in the
13:33same place i was in three countries in
13:36the same place
13:37congratulations on being
13:39a survivor
13:41yeah that's that's what we are all
13:43trying to do so ben i don't want to uh
13:46spark any controversy here and i want to
13:48be careful with how i say this but
13:50carmela as you can imagine
13:53dealt with a lot of horror her her
13:55father was snatched away from her in
13:57yugoslavia in front of her eyes and they
13:59had a run out through a gate and she was
14:01hidden in a
14:03all-boys
14:04school
14:06nunnery as a young girl
14:08so
14:09she i don't think has quite the
14:12empathy that you have for other humans
14:14and i want to get into what you said to
14:16otto olendorf in a little while
14:19um
14:20so
14:21i was talking to her
14:23and i think it's difficult for her to
14:26grasp
14:27your
14:29humanity in a way because carmella um
14:33by the way
14:35i am here so he doesn't have to speak
14:37for me okay i can speak for my am i
14:39right am i right about this i can speak
14:41for myself
14:43uh um
14:44i think that
14:46what i admire about you is that after
14:50you went through the nuremberg period
14:53okay you devoted the rest of your life
14:57you had a
14:59faith
15:00in the law
15:02and either maybe i'm wrong but i don't
15:05see any cynicism in you any any
15:09questioning anything you know i am an
15:12optimist by personality and i worked as
15:16a social worker i have a master's in
15:18social work okay
15:20uh and i worked as a social worker with
15:22all sorts of people through the last
15:2540 years what carmella is trying to say
15:28i think is she doesn't trust the law
15:30quite as much as you do um
15:33because i see the law being also
15:35corrupted
15:36i see the law being corrupted a lot but
15:39maybe what you are what i what i think
15:42you are saying is
15:44that this is the best
15:46of all options the law and the
15:50and the the respect for the law is the
15:52best option the other options are even
15:55worse or they're worse compared to the
15:58to the law and you know how ben you know
16:00that ben is a very very very smart man
16:03he's listening he's listening right now
16:05so ben what is your response to hearing
16:06this i think the uh that is very correct
16:12uh
16:15it's an impossible
16:17dream
16:18however
16:20we are making progress
16:22and that's the key
16:24uh and i give you specific examples with
16:27which i was
16:28very closely involved
16:31um
16:32we have created a permanent
16:34international criminal court
16:36after the international military
16:38tribunal which was set up by the allied
16:41victorious powers the british the french
16:44the russians and the americans the trial
16:47against hermann goering and company that
16:50was the first big
16:52known as the nuremberg trial
16:54um
16:57that trial just scraped the surface
17:00and it was a small selection and it was
17:04decided that
17:06the world was entitled to get a broader
17:08picture how is it that doctors lawyers
17:11judges
17:12businessmen all
17:14were engaged in this
17:18effort to kill all the jews as well as
17:20other people
17:22and uh
17:24it was in those subsequent trials as
17:27they were called
17:28that i was the chief prosecutor
17:31and
17:32i immediately ran into the problem which
17:35your mother has
17:36suggested people say it'll never happen
17:40well of course it'll never happen if you
17:42never try
17:44but we have made significant progress in
17:47my lifetime and i have been much
17:49involved in that progress
17:53we had set up
17:54a dozen subsequent trials to explain
17:58what the international military tribunal
18:00was all about and we have had a sampling
18:03of other
18:05defendants from these various categories
18:08of german life
18:09so we have created enough permanent
18:12international criminal court there are
18:14other temporary international courts
18:17still struggling
18:19to prevent the crimes being committed to
18:22deter the crimes
18:23and
18:25that's all part of the reality of life
18:28we can't
18:30undo
18:31in one human life
18:33what has been glorified for centuries we
18:36have glorified killing your enemy
18:39time of war glorify warfare
18:42hooray for being in the army and all
18:44that
18:45uh
18:46i appreciate the
18:50sympathy for the soldiers who afforded
18:53the war
18:54i was given five battle stars for having
18:58survived every of the five major battles
19:00in world war ii
19:02but it has only increased my
19:04determination there's got to be a better
19:07way for human beings to deal with their
19:10problems
19:11and to go and kill thousands of innocent
19:13people ben take us
19:15take us into uh and
19:18take us into uh you tell a very
19:20interesting story which kind of changed
19:22your whole um perspective
19:25when you got to a death camp and
19:28what what did you witness in that death
19:30camp and tell us the story about the
19:33revenge of putting a nazi into the
19:35crematorium
19:37well
19:39my goal
19:41after having served as a
19:44corporate sergeant and infantry
19:47uh i was assigned
19:50to set up the war crimes procedure uh
19:54the reason i was selected by that was
19:56because one of my harvard professors
19:58sheldon cook had written a book on war
20:01crimes and he had hired me as a student
20:04at the time
20:05a student who was there on a scholarship
20:07but i had no money
20:09i read everything that had written on
20:11the subject and gave him brief summaries
20:14which he incorporated in his book on war
20:16crimes and he had been in touch with the
20:19pentagon
20:20they were consulting with him
20:23before they created these courts and he
20:25should go find benny out there he's
20:27there he knows all about this
20:29and he took me out of the anti-aircraft
20:31artillery where i was assigned and uh
20:35transformative
20:36headquarters of general patton towards
20:38the lead so you you you enter this
20:41death camp and you see what what do you
20:43see before you the death camps i entered
20:46into a number of them as fast as we the
20:49germans were treated we moved behind
20:51them
20:52and uh the scene was pretty much the
20:54same everywhere crematoria going
20:57in one of the camps
21:00the inmates and some of them were still
21:02in good shape particularly russian
21:03prisoners of war were
21:05chomping at that bit
21:07but the inmates grabbed one of the
21:09guards
21:10and they beat him
21:12i was already in the camp
21:14uh
21:15americans had taken over more or less
21:17the ss was still fleeing from the camp
21:20and they caught him and they beat him
21:23and then they put him on a gurney which
21:25was the
21:26wheels on on a trailer
21:30in which they dumped people into the car
21:33crematorium and they
21:36rolled him over to the crematoria and
21:39they pushed him in
21:41and they waited a while
21:43and
21:44they took him out he was still alive
21:47they beat him again he took man again
21:50he was still alive they put him in until
21:53he was finally cooked
21:55uh
21:56and i was watching this
21:58uh
22:00i had
22:01a rifle an m1 rifle i had
22:05m45 on my hip
22:08i thought of
22:09if i tried to stop this they only want
22:12to turn on me
22:14and so i let it ride
22:17i had something similar in france when
22:19the
22:20french population would grab a girl who
22:22had been
22:23fraternizing with the germans and they
22:25cut her hair off in the public square
22:28and spit on her uh
22:30after the france were liberated and i
22:33was with the liberating forces i fired
22:35my rifle into the air i said she's under
22:38arrest and they took her out of the
22:40chair where they tied her down and i
22:43drove her off i said she's going to
22:44stand well i drove her off
22:47when we got out of sight i said no
22:51i was able to stop it but watching it in
22:54action
22:55um the man who was
22:58in
23:00their eyes
23:02can you hear me all these noise
23:05yeah we hear you we hear you but let me
23:07ask you this let me let me ask this
23:09question to kind of pick things up
23:12even though this nazi had obviously
23:15committed heinous
23:17acts i think did it weigh on you seeing
23:19what the
23:21revenge was like uh putting him into
23:23that uh oven
23:25i i recognize that
23:28vengeance begets more vengeance
23:30and uh it's not a way to deal with the
23:33problem
23:34uh you tried to deter
23:37future
23:38commission of such crimes
23:41but uh to just uh go and kill every
23:44german that's what the russians plan to
23:46do and did
23:49uh they said we don't need any trials we
23:51know what they did and they did was
23:53horrible enough they machine gun
23:57hundreds of thousands of russian
23:59prisoners of war
24:01that's your first war crime in itself
24:04and uh
24:05so i could understand the feeling
24:08for revenge
24:09but uh
24:11i
24:12my reason told me it doesn't work
24:14that uh
24:16you you can't usually it's the guilty
24:19people who escape and it's the lesser
24:22people who get put on trial or get
24:25killed in the eventful response revenge
24:28has no time to discriminate it kills
24:31innocent people along with the guilty
24:33and so
24:35i said in my opening statement
24:38vengeance is not our role it's the
24:40opening sentence
24:41nor do we seek merely a just retribution
24:45the case we present is a plea of
24:47humanity to law
24:50and that has been my guide ever since
24:52that was your opening line at nuremberg
24:54carmela has a question for you ben
24:56carmelo the floor is yours
24:58um
25:00i have a question this is truly a
25:03question
25:04uh until very reason even though i'm a
25:06survivor and my father was gassed in
25:09auschwitz and my grandfather was gassed
25:11in auschwitz and my uncle and aunt and
25:14and i shouldn't enumerate 35 family
25:17members
25:18i
25:19don't i still cannot
25:22understand a number of things
25:25that i want to ask you a very innocent
25:27question here and no agenda behind it
25:30why were there so many
25:34war criminals
25:36after world war ii
25:38in germany
25:40acquitted
25:43they were not only not
25:46acquitted they were never tried
25:49i will give you a specific answer in my
25:52einsteins group and trial
25:54uh well i ca capture the records of the
25:58uh and such grouper
26:00that the name einsatz's
26:03nondescript name it's action groups they
26:06wanted to keep it quiet
26:08um but they kept the records in the camp
26:12and they had forwarded them to berlin
26:14and uh
26:16so berlin disseminated
26:1999 copies of their reports so they're
26:22very well informed what was going on
26:25and uh
26:31i was limited
26:33to 24 defendants
26:35we had 3 000 members of the united
26:38states group and each one of which was a
26:40mass murderer beyond any doubt
26:43because i had their reports
26:45three thousand
26:47uh
26:48and i had to select 24 because there
26:51were only 24 seats in the trilegger
26:54company a sort of ridiculous reason
26:57but if we had tried to do the whole 3000
27:00i'd still be sitting in nuremberg
27:02prosecuting
27:03so it was a matter of practicality
27:07of uh
27:09trying to pick out
27:11as i did
27:13the highest ranking and the best
27:15educated defendants
27:16and people who were surprised i had
27:19several
27:20phd's doctor and doctors double doctor
27:23i'd never heard a double doctor before
27:26dr dr rush he killed 32
27:29327 jews i think on
27:32september 1941
27:34um
27:35and
27:36so
27:38to answer your question
27:42then the numbers were so great
27:45that in order to do justice to it
27:48uh
27:50you you have to
27:51on the american principles you first
27:54accuse him of the crime and
27:56is it a crime to what he did
27:58and then if you find him guilty what is
28:01the sentence form i went through that
28:04procedure in my head
28:08it was clear to me that
28:11you cannot do justice in the case the
28:13scales of justice have to be balanced i
28:17had a million people hundreds of
28:19thousands of children murdered
28:21and i had 24 defendants that scale can
28:24never be balanced
28:26i could all i do it was get a sampling
28:29and
28:31hope that we would deter others from
28:34doing the same thing
28:35so
28:37in order in the category of vengeance
28:40there are limits to what we could do
28:42we picked according to the number of
28:45seats in the court that's no way to get
28:47do justice and the justice was not done
28:51and many of the murderers
28:53and i called them murderers deliberately
28:55because they were murderers uh whenever
28:58put on trial
28:59uh they went home they went to work uh
29:02is that justice no what else could we do
29:06i had three thousand men
29:08with every day were murder and jews and
29:10and and others gypsies and cripples and
29:14people who they consider opponents
29:17either you go and machine gun them all
29:19as the russians would have done it did
29:21uh or you tried to give them all a fair
29:24trial and then you sentence them
29:26accordingly which is the american
29:28approach as it was which i approved
29:30though so it was at best only a sampling
29:34and i'm sorry we
29:35couldn't do more so that's kind of
29:37that's amazing so if there were there if
29:40there was theoretically a stadium and a
29:42lot of prosecutors
29:44in theory a lot more of these nazi war
29:47criminals
29:48would would have been uh prosecuted but
29:51there just wasn't this okay so we assume
29:53they went back to their lives and they
29:56lived happily ever after
29:58they lived happily but they lived for a
30:00long time
30:02for a long time okay i have one more
30:04question one more question
30:06okay why do we always say in
30:10our language
30:13the nazis did this the nazis did that
30:16the nazis is equivalent in my perception
30:19with
30:20germans
30:22then why do we you know what we are
30:24doing we are also
30:26by by the by calling them nazis
30:30nazis is like a non-existent uh country
30:33right there is no nazi land
30:36so the germans are not
30:39involved right because the nazis are
30:42involved i think this is a terminology
30:45that should be changed
30:47i understand your point and there was
30:49merit to it
30:50but
30:53the
30:54choice would have been to try to put on
30:56trial everybody who was responsible for
30:59criminal behavior
31:01there were thousands and millions of
31:03germans who were involved
31:05being a member of the nazi party
31:08that's when you're calling nazis or nazi
31:11sympathizers and it's okay the german
31:14public was sympathetic to the nazi party
31:18and
31:19many of them joined the party and many
31:21of them joined in the killing
31:24it doesn't mean that the others
31:26approved or disapproved
31:30to disapprove and disagree with the
31:32nazis could be fatal
31:34uh
31:35you were not a
31:38if you were jewish
31:39you couldn't walk the streets you had to
31:41walk in the sidewalk and not you came to
31:43go by you couldn't hold a job you thrown
31:46out of the schools einstein had to flee
31:48for the country and people like that so
31:51it's difficult to distinguish between
31:54the
31:56more or less innocent people who
31:58supported the nazi party which was very
32:01widespread
32:02and uh those who joined the party and
32:05it's it's used the term nazis
32:07indiscriminately
32:09many of the germans were opposed
32:12i can even including among the
32:13defendants
32:15many many many
32:18well yeah i know many how much is many
32:22uh
32:22yeah
32:26and uh but uh and and everybody many of
32:30people were afraid to say anything
32:32because we just said something against
32:34or not to you or the next one online
32:37uh
32:38and then they killed anybody they
32:39thought it would
32:43so ben as a young jewish man
32:47prosecuting at the nuremberg seven year
32:49old 27 years old was it tough to remain
32:52impartial knowing that you were
32:54jewish uh
32:56it was not
32:58enough to remain impartial in the
33:00conduct of the trial
33:02uh i was partial
33:05uh
33:06uh even had not been jewish
33:09killed many who were not jewish
33:12uh i was determined to try to do justice
33:16in case but there was not a trace of
33:18vengeance in my heart or in my action
33:22i was very careful uh in selecting not
33:25only the defendant but the prosecution
33:27staff
33:29and
33:30going into the concentration camps i
33:32made no distinction between one inmate
33:35and another with jewish or non-jewish
33:38and
33:39that was my
33:40actual sentiment i realized that the
33:43non-jew who was murdered was entitled to
33:46justice the same as the jew who was
33:48murdered
33:48and uh
33:50so it did not play a key role
33:54uh in the prosecution itself
33:57ben how i mean the nuremberg trials to
34:00this day is it's the largest mass murder
34:02trial in the history of the world it was
34:04also amazingly your first trial but
34:08how in the world
34:09does one begin to prepare for that um
34:13in terms of a legal strategy
34:16well
34:18it may sound boastful or whatever
34:20i was the most experienced man in the
34:22world
34:26um first of all
34:29my career was crime prevention
34:32and uh on that basis i suppose that the
34:35harvard law school gave me a full
34:36scholarship i was raised as an immigrant
34:39in poverty
34:40um
34:42when i got into the concentration camps
34:44i saw what's happening
34:46uh my sympathies were not which ones are
34:50jews and which ones are not jewish
34:52they were all victims
34:54and uh
34:56it played no part whatsoever i didn't
34:58ask the jews was supposed to wear a star
35:00of david most of them the star had been
35:03torn off i've been worn off and you
35:05couldn't tell the difference but i
35:07didn't try to tell the difference
35:09um
35:10and uh
35:12in the trial itself
35:15i
35:16was the only jewish prosecutor we had
35:19four people to prosecute einstein's
35:21group a b c and d
35:23because we had each
35:26defendant had it cover a different
35:28territory which was occupied by the
35:30nazis
35:32and i wanted to give
35:36not give the impression that the jews
35:38would take it over the trial
35:40and so i appointed the other three who
35:42were non-jews i
35:45kept a few prize
35:47guys for myself
35:49but uh
35:50i would say you're you're thinking that
35:53the prosecutor could be full of hatred
35:56and vengeance
35:57was jewish knowing that his whole family
35:59had been killed members of my family
36:01were killed as well not my immediate
36:04family but relatives
36:07but it did not play any role whatsoever
36:10in my personal reaction and in my
36:13behavior
36:14but the
36:15the nazis sort of obsessive compulsive
36:19record keeping that helped you tell me
36:21about uh how you got to those records
36:23and
36:24what tally you came to i know you
36:26tallied up some numbers explain that
36:31my assignment from the pentagon
36:34was to the army
36:36to set up war crime sprouts
36:39the general who was in the army us army
36:43uh
36:44asked me what's a war crime
36:46had no idea
36:47they knew about conduct on becoming a
36:49gentleman they knew about rape but war
36:52crimes they didn't know what that was
36:54about
36:55so i think i was the first man in the
36:56u.s army to deal with that question
36:59and i had
37:01read everything there was to read on the
37:03subject
37:05and i knew what the law was being
37:08developed on that subject
37:10and uh
37:15i don't remember the rest of your
37:17question well you you said you told me
37:19when i interviewed you previously
37:21i don't think it was a calculator but it
37:23was you tallied up numbers um
37:26the way i organized that is first thing
37:28i needed translators and researchers so
37:31i hired about 50 americans
37:34who were former german refugees or
37:36whatever
37:37they knew german
37:39i
37:40knew
37:41the defendant's
37:42suspects who were in the nuremberg jail
37:45and had some pretty good idea of what
37:48they were assessed murderers they were
37:50industrialists who were people with
37:52death they were doctors who performed
37:53medical experiments i divided by
37:56researchers into different subjects sent
37:59them into all the german archives and
38:01the germans were very good archive
38:03keepers
38:05they got the reports of the einsteins
38:07group and as they were called
38:09it means action groups only and they
38:12forward them to berlin berlin they were
38:15assembled put into sort of a booklet and
38:18that was disseminated to 99 different
38:20agencies in the nazi hierarchy and i had
38:24a list of the distributors as well
38:27so
38:30i would say our
38:33records
38:34were excellent they were the original
38:36documents
38:37marked kahaimurai saha
38:40top secret things
38:42reproduced in berlin by a guy assigned
38:44to that he was the only witness that i
38:47called to testify as to the authenticity
38:50of these reports i didn't need witnesses
38:53i said a witness can make mistake i want
38:56their written
38:57top secret report and i want the guy who
39:00assembled the reports from berlin we
39:01arrested him
39:03and explained how these reports were put
39:05together so that was all made clear
39:08before the trial so you only had one
39:10witness the entire trial and error and
39:13the rest was all documented
39:16the rest
39:17of documents yes
39:18and and if i remember correctly you said
39:21you tallied and when you got to one
39:23million deaths can you explain that
39:26yes
39:27uh it was
39:29overwhelming the scenes in the camp
39:32people were dying left and right dead
39:34around the ground
39:35piles of bones
39:38human beings waiting to be burned and uh
39:46in the office they had a list
39:48they had written everybody's name their
39:50number his tattooed number which they
39:52got in auschwitz that was the first stop
39:55and go give them a tattoo then they
39:57assign them to different camps
39:59uh
40:00all of that was was there
40:03it had to be assembled
40:05when i got into a camp which uh my goal
40:08was to get in there as quickly as
40:09possible
40:10as soon as i knew they were coming to a
40:12camp i got into my jeep but i headed to
40:15the area i went there at that time i was
40:18rank of sergeant i didn't have any
40:21insignia on me because i couldn't do my
40:23job with a rank of sergeant i'd go into
40:26the camp i would get the american
40:28commander and i'd say i need 10 men
40:30immediately to surround the stripe
40:32school or the office where the records
40:34are kept nobody goes in or out without
40:36my permission they would say yes sir and
40:40immediately i would occupy the
40:43office where the records were kept there
40:45i found nicely the daily reports which
40:49they sent to berlin
40:50and all the other records the names of
40:52the people who were there
40:54and the nationality also the names of
40:57the guards and the prince goldmine of
41:00information
41:02with that information i said i don't
41:04need anything i flew down
41:06with a sampling to nuremberg which was
41:09our headquarters for war crimes trials
41:11as well
41:12i met there with the chief of council
41:14who was later my law partner in new york
41:17then general telford taylor and
41:21i said we have to put on a new trial
41:23he said you can't
41:25pentagon has already approved the budget
41:27the lawyers have already been assigned
41:29we already have 12 trials going we can't
41:32put on any new trials now
41:34i got indignant i said you i have in my
41:37hand here a million murders
41:40i had taken a little heading machine and
41:42had added up and when i got to a million
41:44i stopped adding i took a sample and i
41:47flew down to nuremberg and i said you've
41:48got to put these guys on trial
41:51and he said well can you do it in
41:52addition to your other
41:54investigative responsibilities and i
41:56said sure he said oh yeah you'll do it
41:59and that's how it came about that at the
42:01age of 27 i had graduated already from
42:05holland and passed the bar
42:07i was appointed as the chief prosecutor
42:09in the biggest murder trial in human
42:11history it was my first case
42:14i had never been in the court before
42:17so
42:18it came about
42:20and of course i i i was a student in
42:24criminology
42:26i knew that what i had
42:28the documentary proof is better than any
42:30witness testimony
42:32and uh and so it was and i was able then
42:35two days to just call the witness are
42:38you so-and-so
42:39did you admit you killed so many
42:41thousand people you know
42:43get their lives and attempted evasion
42:46but nobody believed it because i had
42:47such overwhelming proof
42:52later on in life later on in life okay
42:56of let's say 10 years after all this
42:59passed
43:00did you ever think how was i the chosen
43:03one
43:04to carry this
43:07did you ever think of that did you
43:08reflect on that
43:10uh no i meant i meant by
43:13uh maybe
43:15it's an old-fashioned term maybe by
43:17by destiny by destiny
43:21maybe
43:22um
43:23i was talking to my wife to whom i was
43:26happily wed for 75 years she died about
43:29a year ago her pictures here on my desk
43:32very happily we never had an argument
43:34but she was also working with me in
43:36germany we married in new york and she
43:39came with me to germany
43:40and uh
43:42when she saw all the battles that i had
43:44gone through and every and survived
43:46that's why they already gave me five
43:48battle stars for having to survive
43:51she said in line with your question i
43:54think she said somebody up there has
43:56been saving you for a purpose
43:59and i
44:00said dear god can you send me a book
44:04can you send me what
44:05else
44:06help
44:10so ben back to uh so you present your
44:12case and you rest after only two days
44:16and then tell me what was it like
44:18uh when the convictions were handed down
44:21by the judge what did what what what did
44:23they say you kind of played that back
44:26for us
44:27the convictions lasted two days the
44:30first day
44:31was the judge's
44:33written
44:34opinion
44:35the opinion recited the evidence that i
44:38had introduced
44:39um
44:41in the
44:43trial in chief against the defendant i
44:45would call defendants you're the
44:46defendant you've signed this document is
44:48this truth and so on there's
44:51a little bit no i was at my
44:53grandmother's funeral i had done a very
44:55thorough investigative job before that
44:57before he got to trial and i had sent my
45:00investigators with instruction you go to
45:02the man's house you being on the roof
45:04and you stop when you've dug up the
45:06cellar bring me every paper that can be
45:08relevant to this trial and they did
45:11and so their lies didn't cut anyways
45:14with me
45:18when they started with their lives i hit
45:20them with one of their own documents you
45:22know so
45:23uh
45:25uh
45:27the trial
45:30and one day it was the next day was left
45:33for the sentencing
45:35it was a grim scene
45:38a courtroom was filled
45:40um
45:42nobody said a word
45:44defendants would be brought
45:46into the courtroom on a little lift
45:49an elevator which came from the prison
45:51below and came up into the courtroom a
45:53small door the door would open and the
45:56prisoner one at a time would step
45:58forward put on the earphones just as you
46:00have them here
46:02and they would hear the judge say
46:04for the crimes of which you have been
46:06convicted this tribunal sentences you
46:10to death by hanging
46:12they would take the earphones off step
46:15back
46:16seven through lift drop down
46:19next
46:20death by hanging
46:22death by hanging death by hanging back
46:27i
46:28silenced in the courtroom no applause no
46:31whisper nothing
46:33my head was just pounding just by
46:36hanging just by hanging past my head
46:39it was grim
46:40and intelligent there was no jubilation
46:43there was no hooray justice is being
46:45done nothing of the kind it was silence
46:49dead silence so i can use the term dead
46:52under these things
46:53uh
46:54and uh
46:56the day before that
46:58judges had explained what they had done
47:00in each town i had the records of the
47:02town so it wasn't too difficult to write
47:06the basis for the trial with mass murder
47:08no matter how you cut it um
47:11and
47:13when it was over
47:16it was customary for the chief
47:18prosecutor to invite his staff to a
47:20party in his home
47:22celebrate the ending of the trial
47:25and uh not celebrating but the ending of
47:27the trial
47:28i couldn't go to my own party i i went
47:31home went to bed
47:32um
47:34and uh
47:36it was a growing experience
47:39what else can i tell you there was no
47:41joy in it at all
47:43uh
47:44did the did the defendants know
47:47that you were jewish
47:50i didn't ask them
47:51and i would guess they guessed
47:54i didn't conceal it and wouldn't make a
47:56point of it i didn't say you killed my
47:58people and so on none of that no no no
48:02you did something kind of amazing that i
48:04would never have done because i don't
48:05have the same heart as you but after
48:08otto olendorf who's sort of the lead
48:10defendant for lack of a better term
48:13after he was convicted
48:15and he went down the elevator
48:17you said that you went and sought him
48:19out what did you say to him
48:24a very good question because it
48:27answered a lot of questions
48:29old
48:31was in general in the ss major met
48:34brigadier general of the ss
48:36he was a fairly young man was the father
48:39of five children
48:41he had given testimony
48:43in the international military tribunal
48:45trial
48:46which indicated
48:48uh
48:49some
48:50acknowledgement that the crimes had
48:53occurred
48:54uh
48:56and uh
48:59i was
49:00a little bit sorry for him for his
49:03children
49:04because he answered the questions he
49:06said
49:07what we did was in self-defense
49:10we hitler knew the
49:12russians were going to attack us
49:14and therefore we were justified in
49:17preempting that
49:18striking first
49:20and that's the argument he had made at
49:21the trial
49:23and uh
49:25i thought well
49:27he's a human being educated
49:29doctor titled
49:32i want to talk to him i had never talked
49:34not had a not a word with any of the
49:37defendants before trial
49:39said i don't want to talk to them i
49:40don't want to hear what fine gentleman
49:42there was nothing i want to answer to
49:45these charges i have this proof what do
49:48you got to say
49:49and so i was very crisp and determined
49:53and uh
49:55but the trial was over
49:5713 of them had been sentenced to death
50:00i figured all of those were sure what a
50:03hang
50:05and uh
50:06so i went down in the lift
50:08to the prison below
50:10he was in a
50:11guarded cage he would have opened a
50:13little window
50:15and uh
50:17i said to him in the german comments for
50:19the episode can i do something for you
50:22mr olin off
50:24i thought he would say tell my family i
50:27loved him tell him i'm sorry
50:30he would say something i didn't know
50:31what he would say but i felt
50:33i had never expect had a word
50:36to say to him during all the trial he
50:38was i assigned
50:41each defendant for one of my other i had
50:43three other lawyers but i
50:45didn't steal the glory for myself i gave
50:48them all a b c and d
50:51and i had never spoken to all before
50:54and i just asked him can i do something
50:56for you
50:58knowing that he would hang for sure
51:00and he knew it and i know it
51:02and uh he said you'll see i was right
51:06and where
51:08how do you make that out
51:10he said well
51:11uh hitler knew that the russians planned
51:14to attack
51:15i couldn't check on hitler's view he had
51:17more information than i had
51:20and uh
51:21so i would be justified
51:23in preempting that and from hitting
51:26georgetown before they hit us
51:28and that's what i was doing
51:30and i would do it again
51:31and if i had to my sister would judge
51:33asked him this question what would you
51:35do with your sister or
51:38a mother he said i would do the same to
51:40protect my sister
51:42so it was no remorse whatsoever
51:47it became doubly interesting to me a
51:49couple of years
51:51from now uh now
51:53when president trump
51:55made his first visit to the
51:58united nations i thought on tv
52:01and he said north korea south korea
52:05he said to the north koreans i warn you
52:11if you
52:14attack us americans
52:17or any of our allies
52:20we will totally destroy you
52:24i said mister to myself mr president
52:28that's the old and old argument
52:31that you're assuming they're going to
52:32attack you therefore you could totally
52:34destroy you how do you totally destroy a
52:37people do you take them all out of
52:39school them as the germans did
52:41do you drop a nuclear bomb on them what
52:44how do you destroy a people
52:46and uh
52:47so that was the old and off defense
52:49holiday was hanged
52:52uh
52:53i was invited to attend the hanging
52:56of all the
52:58people who i
52:59uh only four of them were hanged
53:01together
53:02um
53:04and uh
53:06i declined the invitation
53:08they sent me the tape
53:10i had the cave and i sent it to the
53:12holocaust museum in washington
53:14uh
53:16the ceremony was
53:18quiet
53:19everything was quiet and courtroom
53:22and uh
53:25i have asked myself
53:27was all enough right
53:29uh
53:30was it self-defense
53:32against me that wouldn't have stood up
53:34in my court in any case because
53:36self-defense had to be limited and it
53:38had to be right before the attack was
53:40made at launch and so on it was an
53:43excuse
53:45he probably believed it and i believe
53:47many of the other defendants with doctor
53:49degrees
53:50also had a similar defense and
53:53said so at the trial
53:55the judge just said no way no way
53:58uh
53:59you think your neighbor is going to
54:01shoot you can't go across the street and
54:02kill him his wife his grandmother until
54:05the neighborhood what kind of a world
54:07would we have
54:08if we had that as a rule of law they say
54:11we would have total chaos and so they
54:13were sentenced to death and they were in
54:16fact executed vis-a-vis your
54:19trump example just now do you worry that
54:21history will repeat itself are you
54:23confident that the rule of law will
54:25prevail
54:27well
54:28i'm of course hoping that law will
54:30prevail that has been the goal of my
54:32life to create a more humane world
54:35protected by law
54:38and
54:40it certainly has had some effect
54:43whether it will eliminate all wars it
54:45certainly has not
54:47whether it would eliminate all war
54:48crimes it certainly has not uh war
54:52crimes are committed by all nations in
54:54war
54:56including this nation the united states
55:00and uh
55:01that's initial warfare you get carried
55:04away they're trying to kill you you want
55:06to kill them first
55:07and
55:09my own conclusion was you have to
55:11eliminate war making itself
55:14and the only way you can do that is to
55:16know what causes war
55:18and so i spent a lot of time studying
55:20that question i wrote books on all these
55:22topics two two books on defining
55:24international aggression two books on
55:27creating an international criminal law
55:29two volumes on enforcing international
55:31law another book on the less than slaves
55:34on the use of slave labor so i've
55:37studied the topic
55:38in great detail because
55:41i wanted to know
55:43uh the answer to your question
55:45uh
55:47and uh it's not easy
55:50because
55:54the rule that's followed is that
55:57the leader who wants to get the mob
55:59behind him just has to tell them they're
56:01in danger that somebody's going to
56:03attack them and they're
56:05what they're trying to protect is first
56:07their religion
56:08next their nationality the next their
56:11economic circumstance
56:13uh
56:14and these are the reasons
56:16they are given by their leaders to go to
56:18war
56:19and to give their lives necessary for
56:22their country and to be proud i regret
56:24to have only one life to give for my
56:26country said nathan hale hail is a hero
56:29i think it's stupid to say
56:32give your life for your country
56:34your debts for your country
56:36you should give your life to help the
56:38country and not to be proud of you only
56:41have one life to give beautiful
56:43countries so we're living in
56:46oklahoma excuse me excuse me excuse me
56:50uh
56:50we always hear the term
56:53proportionality when there is a conflict
56:57one of the
56:58modern terms i don't know even if it's
57:00modern or it exists historically in
57:03military terms but it says always
57:05proportionality
57:07proportionality it has to be
57:09you know the the defender has to act in
57:12in proportion with and not
57:15overdo it
57:17now what the germans did during world
57:19war ii
57:22they
57:23sent
57:24advanced uh teams
57:28and murdered
57:29all the jewish civilians 100
57:33uh
57:3440
57:35of the 6 million were murdered not in
57:37concentration camps but in places like
57:41you're familiar with babiar right baby
57:4534 000 were shot in one day so they did
57:49this
57:50as they as the armies advanced towards
57:53russia
57:54or went into poland they would first go
57:58and round up well organized according to
58:01their compulsive lists
58:04all the jews and would literally bring
58:07them to ravines or or next to the wall
58:10of a factory and
58:12kill them all
58:15okay
58:16one million at least were murdered like
58:19this one million at least okay that is
58:24germany
58:28it's not in germany they were not killed
58:30by germany they were killed by people
58:33and who were the people
58:35people were german nationals mostly
58:38and uh
58:39as they say in your profession i rest my
58:42case
58:45well i rested my case by saying
58:48the defendant in the doctor
58:51wrote the darkest page of human history
58:54life was their toy and that was their
58:57tools if these men be immune
59:01then law has lost its meaning and we
59:04must all live in fear
59:06that was how i ended the case
59:10in my closing statement so what you say
59:14is i know unfortunately true you can't
59:17blame a whole people there's an issue i
59:20i leave out a lot of people even even
59:24though even though in all of europe
59:27europe
59:28less than one percent
59:31of people less than one percent of
59:34people
59:36uh
59:37try to save jews
59:40by me
59:41of course
59:42of course
59:44ben my mother should have become a uh
59:46prosecutor i think she would have been
59:48excellent if i would have become i
59:50wouldn't have been as nice as you i'll
59:52tell you right now ben this is our
59:53second episode in a row carmelo's uh
59:57emotions are running raw because last
59:59episode we spoke to the grandson of a
1:00:01nazi and she was not thrilled with him
1:00:04let's put that no no no no i wasn't it's
1:00:06not actually forget about that story
1:00:10let's focus on let's let's end this
1:00:12listen let's be conscious and let's be
1:00:15aware
1:00:16that we have
1:00:18and you know in hebrew they say ish
1:00:20gadol
1:00:22you know what an iscardo is oh a great
1:00:26man
1:00:28and you must accept the title
1:00:32in hebrew it's ish gadol
1:00:35hebrew with the hungarian accent
1:00:38accent
1:00:47on a high note ben how do i live to 102.
1:00:53maria
1:00:54uh very understanding lovable life to
1:00:57begin with
1:00:58and i think i think i was telling you
1:01:00this story you said that you and your
1:01:01wife never
1:01:03raised your voices to one another
1:01:13[Music]
1:01:20what is the name of the town where you
1:01:22were born i was going in seoul
1:01:26and i was born in subotica
1:01:30okay ben how many languages do you speak
1:01:33all those that are necessary
1:01:36you speak english german
1:01:39french
1:01:40french
1:01:42very nice and i understand uh i was a
1:01:45little jealous i saw the other station
1:01:48she did a
1:01:49push-up contest with you how many
1:01:50push-ups can you do these days
1:01:52well these days it's different
1:01:55i used to do routinely 100 push-ups
1:01:58about other exercises in the morning
1:02:00and
1:02:03when my system began to bucket from
1:02:07fight against that the doctor said no
1:02:09more push-ups
1:02:12i said no more push-ups i must confess i
1:02:14only did 10 this morning
1:02:18good for you ben listen you're a real
1:02:20inspiration you're a legend
1:02:22um and may you get the
1:02:25the congressional gold medal the
1:02:28congressional gold medal
1:02:30i guess a big honor coming from the
1:02:32united states
1:02:35let me tell you a story about the
1:02:37germans wanting to give me a medal
1:02:40one day i got a call after the trials
1:02:43long after the trials
1:02:45and german foreign ministry they said
1:02:47they want to give me
1:02:48their medal of honor
1:02:52and would i accept it
1:02:55i said well
1:02:57i'll call you back in about a week
1:03:00so i convened a number of survival
1:03:03groups
1:03:0498 jewish
1:03:07and uh
1:03:08i said the germans want to give me
1:03:10their
1:03:11bedin score tears declassa that
1:03:14order of merit first class
1:03:17should i accept it
1:03:19well almost all of them
1:03:21said are you crazy they're using you as
1:03:24a patsy they're going to try to give you
1:03:26a medal and say how fine the germans
1:03:28were and they're going to say everything
1:03:30was fine and dandy and using you by
1:03:32giving you the medal
1:03:34and it went around the room and
1:03:36about 10 people had an opinion and that
1:03:39was the opinion of most of them
1:03:42i said i'm going to accept it
1:03:44and i'll tell you why
1:03:48chancellor edna your
1:03:51head of state
1:03:52had made a speech in which he said
1:03:54terrible crimes
1:03:55have been committed against jewish
1:03:57people and we owe them
1:03:59a debt of compensation
1:04:02and based upon this
1:04:05public statement of the head of the
1:04:06german government
1:04:10conference was convenient of the leading
1:04:12jewish organizations
1:04:14or the conference on jewish material
1:04:16claims against germany i was counsel to
1:04:18the conference
1:04:20and uh
1:04:22we discussed it
1:04:24and there was someone who said what
1:04:26you're going to go sit down with the
1:04:27people who murdered my mother are you
1:04:30crazy we'll kill you too
1:04:33and they threatened to kill us and they
1:04:34did try to kill us
1:04:36and they had some success
1:04:39uh
1:04:40including the one of the leaders of what
1:04:42we call the royal gang became the prime
1:04:45minister of israel
1:04:48anyway
1:04:50i thought about it
1:04:52and i thought
1:04:54this is the only chance that the german
1:04:56young people will have to say that sorry
1:04:59and all the years i worked in germany
1:05:02building up the restitution programs the
1:05:04other thing no one ever came up to me
1:05:06and said i'm sorry what we did to the
1:05:07jews
1:05:09and i
1:05:11i felt that
1:05:12but i said this is another generation
1:05:16and uh
1:05:17we shouldn't
1:05:18blame them for the crimes of their
1:05:20father or grandfathers i'm going to
1:05:22accept the award
1:05:24and i did
1:05:26and
1:05:28i never wore it
1:05:31before a meeting with the german
1:05:32minister
1:05:35uh but it was a hard decision
1:05:38where do you draw the line
1:05:41how do you draw the line
1:05:43uh do you say well all germans are
1:05:46murderous
1:05:47all nazi
1:05:49all germans are nazi sympathizers
1:05:51anyways
1:05:52uh even to the next generation that
1:05:55would not be fair
1:05:57and uh my four children were born in
1:06:00germany in american army hospital
1:06:04my wife was from hungary as you noted
1:06:09and with a very happy marriage i have a
1:06:11picture over here
1:06:12i was with her when she died
1:06:16so it's hard to apportion guilt
1:06:19uh
1:06:21people can't they're not all heroes to
1:06:23stand up to the government
1:06:25and you see it in all governments still
1:06:27today
1:06:29including our own ben the uh the only
1:06:31thing that makes me question your
1:06:33intelligence is you told me you wanted
1:06:34to have 12 children
1:06:36so
1:06:37but other than that i know you're a
1:06:39brilliant man and thank you for your
1:06:41service in the military
1:06:43thank you for your service as a
1:06:44prosecutor and uh your helper carlotta
1:06:48thank her and she's yelling at me to you
1:06:51have to go eat and take a nap so
1:06:54we're gonna and i thank you from the
1:06:56bottom of my heart and i
1:06:58until 120 okay
1:07:01we'll have another in i'm 80 that's
1:07:04pretty close how about 240.
1:07:06you know what you created
1:07:08you created the situation i'm always the
1:07:11old lady in the because we do did this
1:07:14about 40 times already and i'm always
1:07:16the only today i'm the young woman and
1:07:19you are the old man
1:07:22all right you look fine it's okay
1:07:25all right thank you thank you millions
1:07:28thank goodness
1:07:31yes
1:07:32thank you bye carlotta bye-bye
1:07:35thank you be right back with
1:07:39the new schmooze
1:07:40[Music]
1:07:49welcome back
1:07:50it's time for the news schmooze
1:07:54i don't feel that way
1:07:57i don't feel that way they shame on them
1:08:00you know why
1:08:02and we are back with the new schmooze
1:08:05carm you're in the mid-sentence as usual
1:08:07what was your train of thought the train
1:08:09of thought is that you gave a big
1:08:12lecture that they have to listen to this
1:08:14man but because his history
1:08:16no people are so dumb that they don't
1:08:19have to listen to it
1:08:21what did you think of ben
1:08:29whenever carmelo says nothing it's one
1:08:31of the most
1:08:33disconcerting
1:08:34discombobulating
1:08:36disorienting feelings that i can ever
1:08:39have because i know
1:08:41something is brewing in her mind and it
1:08:43is negative
1:08:44she is absolutely not absolutely not why
1:08:48would carmel be i know what it is and we
1:08:50can talk about it
1:08:52you're a little cynical about the law
1:08:54that's what your issue is with him
1:08:56because if you were prosecuting you
1:08:58would have taken the machine gun and
1:08:59killed these nazis and i would have done
1:09:01the same thing i think i would have done
1:09:02the same thing i was thinking i would
1:09:04have not put them on trial i would have
1:09:06shot them in the head but this man
1:09:08lives by a different no no no abso word
1:09:12of honor i am thinking
1:09:14i you know who is like that a little
1:09:16rita
1:09:17they are pure souls
1:09:20they they don't have an evil
1:09:24thought in their mind they cannot think
1:09:26of people not because
1:09:28you would not have been able to
1:09:29prosecute nazis you would have not
1:09:32let me tell you you would not have been
1:09:33able to abide by the rule of law you
1:09:35would have taken a gun let me tell you a
1:09:37story in israel one year there was an
1:09:40intifada it means the arabs
1:09:42were revolting
1:09:44the terrorists were blowing up buses
1:09:46with the la 100 live people in it and
1:09:49they were doing major atrocities okay in
1:09:52the streets of tel aviv by the way the
1:09:54air conditioning finally came on i was
1:09:56ready to pass out go on
1:09:58so at that very at that very time
1:10:02the the the person the super in our
1:10:05building his name is sammy where we
1:10:08lived at that time they stayed at this
1:10:11apartment
1:10:12in in tel aviv
1:10:14and i complained to him a few days
1:10:16before that the pigeons come and they
1:10:18make right on us because there is no
1:10:20screen on the window on the night good
1:10:22luck you always told me that was good
1:10:24luck
1:10:24wait a second
1:10:26one little bm on you is a good luck but
1:10:29then bmz is already bad luck
1:10:33so this guy this
1:10:34sami came up
1:10:36and in the typical israeli style
1:10:39he jumped up on the rail of the terrace
1:10:41to put on a screen and he was swaying on
1:10:45the ninth floor and i was furious at
1:10:48these arabs who blew up the speaking two
1:10:51who blew up the
1:10:53the
1:10:55bus
1:10:56but instinctively i went and grabbed his
1:11:00his legs around the knees to protect you
1:11:03know like so he was an arab this guy he
1:11:04was an arab sami was an arab and and
1:11:07he's a human being i didn't feel that
1:11:10way i didn't feel that way i felt that
1:11:13he that you know what he is
1:11:16like they say esheth heil maybe he's a
1:11:19he's a
1:11:20righteous man
1:11:22he's a very holy righteous man not made
1:11:26for this world
1:11:27how come you didn't because this world
1:11:29is much tougher than he is how come you
1:11:32didn't do the same for my turtles in
1:11:34israel
1:11:35uh two of my turtles fell out the window
1:11:38my turtles fell
1:11:41how is this request i'm living reliving
1:11:43a memory of childhood i had two turtles
1:11:45that fell out the nine-story one
1:11:47relevant to our company let's get into
1:11:48the new schmooze
1:11:52maybe you should leave the menu i we
1:11:54have to discuss this the new schmooze
1:11:56leads nowhere and it's very
1:11:58anticlimactic to watch half of american
1:12:00evangelicals say that my religion is the
1:12:03one true faith leading to eternal life
1:12:05in heaven and that members of other
1:12:06religions even if they believe in god
1:12:09like jews are not included this is
1:12:11according to the results of a new pew
1:12:13research center survey of nearly 6 500
1:12:16u.s adults the survey was taken between
1:12:18september 20th and 26 on such and such
1:12:20panel in general the survey found that
1:12:23the majority of americans believe in
1:12:24heaven 73
1:12:26but are conflicted about who
1:12:30can
1:12:31go
1:12:32there to heaven are you worried
1:12:34that
1:12:35this percentage of people which i can't
1:12:37find now i just said it
1:12:40believe in heaven but don't believe that
1:12:42we as jews can go there
1:12:43you didn't know this
1:12:47these are the evangelicals no these are
1:12:49not the avengers who are these these are
1:12:51like good christians
1:12:53does that bother you that we can't go
1:12:55but they can go
1:12:56but we have a better heaven what is our
1:12:58heaven
1:13:01on to the next story this one is very we
1:13:03wouldn't even go to their heaven this is
1:13:06actually coming up on 60 minutes it
1:13:07caught my joking i don't give a
1:13:09about the heaven i want to be a long
1:13:12time on the planet earth
1:13:14this next story
1:13:16i've been here i went here on my
1:13:17honeymoon which is why i caught my
1:13:19attention mountain guerrilla tourism in
1:13:21rwanda is helping the country its people
1:13:23and the animals themselves leslie stahl
1:13:26will report on sunday's 60 minutes on
1:13:28it'll be on november 28th
1:13:31once dwindling in numbers mountain
1:13:32gorillas are the only great ape whose
1:13:34numbers are now on the rise attracting
1:13:37well-heeled tourists i was one of them
1:13:40and boosting the local economy leslie
1:13:42stahl went to the mountains
1:13:43points from your uncle i got uh frequent
1:13:46flyer points from my uncle the only gift
1:13:49he's ever given me um
1:13:51actually gave me a camera for my bar
1:13:52mitzvah but uh
1:13:56carm
1:13:57my dream for you is that you get to
1:13:58rwanda before the end to see these
1:14:00animals in the wild it's absolutely
1:14:02incredible you know there was a genocide
1:14:04there yes i did i would feel light at
1:14:06home there's a genocide museum there um
1:14:10what is worse the gas chamber or being
1:14:13machete to death i think machete to
1:14:15death is definitely probably worse
1:14:18gas chamber you go in you kind of
1:14:19collapse to the floor you're out machete
1:14:22you could be
1:14:23spurting blood well i have an idea we
1:14:25went through machete right now for a
1:14:28while for an hour
1:14:30okay between pumpkin pies gingerbread
1:14:32cookies and an extra helping of stuffing
1:14:34with gravy
1:14:36half of america has broken a diet
1:14:37because of the temptation of holiday
1:14:40foods and will continue and will put on
1:14:42a certain amount of weight
1:14:45what is the weight that people will put
1:14:47on during the holiday season carmela
1:14:50not in stone which is the british
1:14:53measurement but in american pounds
1:14:56three pounds
1:14:58eight pounds over the holiday season for
1:15:01the whole season yeah eight pounds
1:15:04karm we're gonna be right back with
1:15:07three questions for grandma and we have
1:15:09three fresh questions right back
1:15:12[Music]
1:15:19it's time now for three questions for
1:15:22grandma
1:15:23[Music]
1:15:24carm don't look at your watch until the
1:15:26show is over
1:15:28don't look at your watch till the show's
1:15:30over we got three questions for grandma
1:15:32my kids are home for thanksgiving break
1:15:33so i got three fresh questions i
1:15:36actually have four i will start with
1:15:37this one
1:15:40how do
1:15:42mom's boobs grow
1:15:48well i don't know how do we grow in
1:15:50general hormones correct
1:15:53i think so
1:15:56uh is that my answer for them when i go
1:15:57home and they ask me
1:16:00i don't
1:16:01because they don't have boobs before
1:16:03puberty and the puberty the my
1:16:06daughters are s going on six and going
1:16:08on eight and their favorite thing to do
1:16:10now is wear what they call sports bras
1:16:13this is insane i saw that it's driving
1:16:15me crazy the name is there but it's a
1:16:17little t-shirt now go continue how does
1:16:20a needle work with a vaccine
1:16:24what my kids are thinking about at the
1:16:26age of six five seven well the the
1:16:29needle is very very thin but still it
1:16:32has a hole in the middle of it you
1:16:35understand this is how it looks if you
1:16:37look through it like it has a hole
1:16:40i'm trying to explain because you don't
1:16:42get it so
1:16:43so and then then there is suction in the
1:16:47in the amp ampoule and then you
1:16:50fill it up and then you push it into the
1:16:53needle and it goes into the body i
1:16:55thought this question was actually
1:16:57ingenious and made me think
1:16:59why are pools big and jacuzzis
1:17:02[Music]
1:17:05why why can't have a large jacuzzi and a
1:17:08small pool
1:17:10because my darlings it costs a lot of
1:17:13money to warm it up to that temperature
1:17:17and you cannot swim in it in at that
1:17:20temperature because you're gonna have a
1:17:21heart attack if you start to swim and
1:17:23jump and everything in it and it costs
1:17:26money for the machines to make the waves
1:17:28to the bubbles and the final bonus
1:17:31question for our audience how do you
1:17:33make a rock
1:17:35and i don't mean the country i mean
1:17:38the stone how do you make
1:17:40a
1:17:41rock it's very simple with with a 3d
1:17:44printer
1:17:48the whole universe is made with 3d
1:17:50printers carm you're laughing and
1:17:52smiling now you and i had um let's just
1:17:54say a tense week you and i well we
1:17:57didn't straighten it out because
1:18:00no
1:18:01we had a tense week
1:18:04um what what are you whispering about no
1:18:06no you i thought you would mention
1:18:08something about the trip here and what
1:18:10happened from the outside you don't
1:18:12discuss that that's privacy i don't i
1:18:15honestly have somebody from the outside
1:18:17phone call that we had no time to
1:18:20oh
1:18:21okay anyway we're gonna get off the
1:18:23podcast is gonna be over and carmelo's
1:18:25gonna tell me
1:18:29i don't know what are you gonna tell me
1:18:31caramel i don't know
1:18:34you're gonna tell me
1:18:36i love you guys let's let's liberate
1:18:38them and do this so now love you america
1:18:41we'll see you next week
1:18:47[Music]

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