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Ben Ferencz (2005) Interview — Transcript

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0:04today is Thursday here in Washington
0:06Friday we do something here pretty last
0:08Friday I was in Cambridge doing
0:10something for Harvard Law School and
0:12another group and uh it's all 60th
0:17anniversary because the more important
0:18people are not immediately available
0:19they happen to be dead so I said you go
0:22call on me what can I do I'm still alive
0:24more or less well and and so if the term
0:27indefatigable could be used it would be
0:29Ben
0:30for I mean I think it's just remarkable
0:33impossible it would be equally
0:36appropriate I picked up a
0:38book authored by Michael musano oh yes
0:41the ikan
0:43Commandos
0:45and he talks about the opening statement
0:49and he talks about a guy named Ben fence
0:52that sounds familiar it's bely but my
0:54memory for names is not so good but
0:56sounds familiar so here it goes a
0:58brilliant young lawyer a graduate of
1:00Harvard Law School enjoying a perfect
1:02command of the German language and armed
1:05with a Rough and Ready military
1:07experience gained as a member of an
1:09American combat outfit in Germany during
1:11the war Benjamin fence was excellently
1:14equipped to study and evaluate the ien
1:16group and reports it was Brigadier
1:19General tord Taylor who had assigned
1:21this young man to the task of analyzing
1:24the captured documents drafting the
1:26indictment locating the accused men in
1:28the various prisoner of war
1:31compounds selecting assistant trial
1:33lawyers taking an active part of the
1:34trial work and generally supervising the
1:37entire
1:38prosecution that's Judge MSO talking
1:41about you well I'm pretty's
1:46right let's talk I was already 27 years
1:49old
1:52right you're born in
1:55Transylvania yes I
1:57was and found yourself in very early age
2:00like 10 months in New York City yes my
2:03parents had the good sense to come along
2:05with me and we decided to leave for
2:08Romania which is where I was born and um
2:11seek our fortune in America it was a
2:13very wise
2:15choice far as College I went to City
2:19College in New York I went to a special
2:21school for so-called gifted boys high
2:24school I didn't know what gifted boys
2:26were cuz I never got any gifts but going
2:29to C college that would admit me
2:31automatically to City College and uh
2:33from there I went to the Harvard Law
2:35School where I won a scholarship on my
2:37first exam on criminal law because I'd
2:40been raised in a high density crime area
2:43I knew all about crime from the earliest
2:45days unfortunately I took a dim view of
2:48it thought I'd like to do whatever I
2:50could to prevent
2:51it graduated
2:531943 yes um was there a lot of
2:58encouragement for you to either to get
3:02involved in the military at that time as
3:05it was I as soon as the war broke out
3:07the entire class went down to the yard
3:09and Harvard Yard and and tried to enlist
3:13and I thought well um I would like to be
3:16in Military Intelligence because I knew
3:18languages and I thought that would be
3:20the best place that they could use me so
3:23I submitted an application for that and
3:25they wrote back and said they're very
3:26sorry but I had not been a citizen for
3:29the required 15 years which were then
3:31necessary it's a prerequisite so I
3:34couldn't get into that then I tried to
3:37get into the Air Force and the first
3:39time around I was too short I was about
3:425' one and you had to be 5'2 and in
3:45order to get that they would have to
3:46hang me by the neck uh I wouldn't look
3:49so kindly on that then I tried to get in
3:51as a pilot I couldn't get in tried to
3:52get in as a
3:55navigator uh and I couldn't get in and
3:57then I didn't pass the eye exam on that
3:59and I tried to get into the single core
4:01and I couldn't get in they but they did
4:03at one point when I was very
4:05disappointed about uh not getting into
4:07the air force uh they said well you want
4:11to be a pilot I said sure that's what I
4:13want to do and they said well you go
4:15down to the this friend of the Boston
4:18airport and tell him Joe sent you and
4:20he'll get you in oh that's great so I
4:23went down to the Boston airport and he
4:25said well sure no problem be Poli sign
4:27here well I took it but having been
4:29trained at Harvard I read what I was
4:31supposed to sign it was a glider pilot
4:33and I said excuse me but what's a glider
4:36pilot well glider pilot you know you go
4:38up in the air and you Glide around I
4:40said does it go up as well as down he
4:43said no no it only goes down I said I'd
4:45like to have one that goes
4:48up I thought of that when I saw the
4:51gliders going across the Normandy Beach
4:54you know later and I thought boy I guess
4:57I was lucky not to be up there at that
4:59particular time but I did get into the
5:01army and of course they immediately
5:03recognized my talent as a I'd been a uh
5:06one of the ways I earned a living was to
5:08do research for one of my professors
5:11Sheldon Gluk who uh wrote a book on war
5:13crimes and I did all the research which
5:15meant I read everything in the Harvard
5:16Law Library on war crimes in French or
5:19in English and uh so I would knew quite
5:22a bit the Army recognized that Talent
5:24immediately so they made me a buck
5:25private in the
5:27artillery I was the
5:30Army being trained for the invasion of
5:34France well eventually my Army Career
5:37was not astonishing until they finally
5:40did uh as we were entering Germany that
5:44time I'd been through the Bulge and
5:46Normandy and the marinal line and the S
5:48fre line and Bastone and all the other
5:52battles and um I was transferred to
5:55General Patton's
5:56headquarters and uh there Colonel met me
5:59and he said we've been instructed to set
6:01up a war crimes Branch your name has
6:02been forwarded from
6:04Washington um what's a war crime the
6:07Army had no experience whatsoever with
6:09war crimes how should they have it from
6:11where uh and so I sat down and tried to
6:15explain what a war crime was and um
6:18became then a war crimes
6:19investigator they sent me out on the
6:22first reports we had of War crime shall
6:24I just continue with this story is
6:26phenomenal uh what it was what they uh
6:31uh the first reports we got were Allied
6:33Flyers being shut down Americans British
6:35Flyers uh over Germany and they were
6:38almost invariably killed by the people
6:40on the ground they would
6:44uh Mob would come upon them they had
6:46orders from Berlin treat them as war
6:48criminals for bombing our cities and uh
6:53so they beat him with sticks and stones
6:56and crowbars and stuff like that and
6:58dump the body some where and I'd come up
7:01and got a report through intelligence
7:04circles to the headquarters I jump into
7:06a Jeep right out to the scene grabbed
7:08the Burgermeister or whoever was the
7:10highest official I could find a police
7:12official many of them had fled and say I
7:14want you to arrest everybody who was
7:16within 100 yards of this event which
7:18took place on this this date he'd bring
7:21them into some big room I'd say all
7:23right now line up against the
7:25wall you're going to have to sit down
7:27and write and describe exactly what
7:29happened
7:30anybody who lies will be
7:32shot that was standard procedure I was
7:36aware of the hey conventions and I know
7:39that that might not be the most
7:41appropriate approach especially today
7:43but it was there was a principle of
7:45reciprocity sure the Germans certainly
7:48did the same thing and they shot you on
7:49top of it and then they would sit down
7:51and write out something or other and
7:53after I read about 20 of them I had a
7:54very good idea of what had happened who
7:56had done what and that next step is to
7:59find a bodies so I inquire around
8:02sometimes they knew sometimes they
8:03didn't the bodies have been thrown into
8:05the river I follow the river Downstream
8:07see where there might be some indication
8:10if I Came Upon an old cemetery nearby
8:13I'd go into the cemetery look at the
8:15registry there see if they had recorded
8:17anybody if I saw something erased which
8:19was sometimes the case I'd grab a hold
8:22of whoever the custodian wasn't say what
8:24name did you erase in that date that so
8:26and so and we're going to dig up all the
8:28bodies until you get me the ones that
8:31I'm looking for and dig up the bodies
8:33sometimes with my own hands because you
8:35can't use a pick because you hit him in
8:37the head you don't know if it's a bandet
8:39or a bullet wound wash them down try to
8:42identify him as being uh the same as the
8:45reported names of the soldiers there are
8:46all kinds of stories of events like that
8:48kind call The Quarter Master to come
8:52pick up the bodies you know hent General
8:54to notify the next of kin and then I'd
8:56prepare a report that this in this state
8:59these fers came down they were taking
9:00this and this town they were beaten by
9:02the mob they were finally killed by the
9:04policemen or the firemen or taken to the
9:06SS headquarters had varied uh and then
9:09that's sent out an arrest order to
9:11arrest the person responsible so these
9:13were the earliest and the easiest cases
9:16later we ran into reports of this would
9:20have been related to areas around the
9:22concentration camps no no this was
9:24anywhere in Germany see this was
9:26anywhere in Germany and uh it happened
9:29you know wherever Allied Flyers were
9:31passing over and uh soon we began to get
9:35reports of Strang looking people walking
9:37around they came out of different camps
9:40work camps of various kinds and they
9:41looked like skeletons and they were
9:43wearing things which looked like pajamas
9:45and they all looked like they were dying
9:47we didn't know the word concentration
9:49camp that is something we learned later
9:53and so I came I'd rush out to the area
9:55first Camp I ran was uff which was an
9:58outside Camp outside of Bal then I go
10:00into buen wild and in each case the
10:04procedure was the
10:05same my job was to collect the evidence
10:08of the crimes to try to ascertain who
10:11was responsible if possible which was
10:13very seldom the case try to apprehend
10:15them because they fled into the woods uh
10:18I would come into the area the scenes of
10:21horror have been well described
10:23elsewhere they are really Indescribable
10:26you cannot depict on television or on on
10:29radio or even by
10:31recounting the uh real magnitude of
10:34horror uh people dying all over the
10:38place lying dead bodies you don't know
10:40if they're dead or alive lying in the
10:41dirt and the dust the troops are rushing
10:44in and the SS are rushing out and the
10:47inmates are grabbing some of the guards
10:49and beating them to death burning them
10:51alive um in the crematorium the
10:54crematorium surrounded by stacked bodies
10:56looking like bags of Bones skeletons
10:59tied together every conceivable illness
11:02dissenter diarrhea lice malaria I don't
11:05know what was not malaria probably not
11:08but but every other disease uh was there
11:12so my job I'd go right into the Shri
11:15stba the office where they kept the
11:16records and the Germans kept very good
11:18records thank you very much um and they
11:21would have the Totten busher the books
11:23describing how many people had been
11:24killed and giving names and numbers and
11:27the cause of death and Page after page
11:31of fictitious causes such as of f shut
11:34while trying to escape and you'd find
11:36the same thing and then you'd find
11:38typhus typhus tyus pages of typhus uh
11:42and uh also collect there were all kinds
11:45of stories how that was done the uh
11:49names of the officers in charge and who
11:52was at the camp collect all of that get
11:54some affidavits from those inmates who
11:57were still capable of preparing
11:59affidavit there were some uh and then
12:03back to headquarters or if necessary
12:06move on to the next Camp because we were
12:09moving very fast Germans were in full
12:11Retreat and we by that time I would get
12:14a report another one's in so I go on to
12:16the next Camp aens
12:18mous half a dozen different camps and
12:21then get back to headquarters wherever
12:24it was in Munich or wherever sit down
12:26type up the report add the evidence to
12:28it the documentation whatever I had the
12:31case is ready for trial and um these
12:34cases went to trial and these have been
12:37completely forgotten these are the
12:38military commission these were military
12:40commissions which were set up and I
12:42hammered the first sign up and I've got
12:44a picture of that in the Holocaust
12:45Museum which has my archives saying US
12:49Army uh third third US army war crimes
12:54section uh and these military commission
12:57I don't think we called them military
13:00commissions it was too fancy a name
13:02maybe I did I don't remember anymore but
13:04in any case this we know today as
13:06military commissions about which the
13:07Army has apparently completely forgotten
13:10they're still questioning whether these
13:12are legal so and so and uh well these
13:16military commissions when they used as a
13:18basic document these reports which I had
13:21picked up and I had a a buddy who came
13:23along he was a second man man by the
13:25name of Jack nowitz who was a year law
13:28graduate spoke several languages he was
13:30a buck private in the engineers by that
13:32time I had reached the rank of Corporal
13:34and when my lieutenant colonel was
13:36promoted to a full Colonel and he said I
13:38appreciate the work this is a result of
13:40your work he made me a
13:41sergeant of
13:44infantry and anyway so these became the
13:48basis for then the so-call D trials and
13:51those trials I mentioned it because
13:54you're going to contrast it I suppose
13:55with the IMT and the subsequent nberg
13:57trials and it's an interesting contrast
14:00I think the average time of the trial
14:02per defendant was about 2 minutes and
14:06the way that
14:07ran was that 30 or 40 of them would be
14:10brought in from let's say bamal or M
14:13Housen or aay or one of the other camps
14:16I had the names they had been picked up
14:18in the P
14:20camps line them up and rose with a
14:24number on them 1 2 3 so and so the
14:28presiding officer usually a captain or a
14:30major would come in defense Council were
14:32assigned lieutenants usually no legal
14:34experience whatsoever and
14:38uh number one stand up your name Hans
14:41Schmidt yes y were you a guard in the
14:45concentration camp y I didn't do
14:47anything y uh you're accused of being an
14:51accomp and accessory to the murder and
14:53abuse of the inmates of that camp what
14:55do you have to say about that not guilty
14:57I was just carrying out my my orders you
14:59got anything else to say no sit down
15:01next so and so stand up you are so and
15:05so yes uh you have anything more to say
15:08than that well I was just a cook
15:09anything more to say that's all sit down
15:12next so one and they'd go down and you
15:15know in a couple of hours they were
15:16finished judges would adjourn so-called
15:19judges to their next room come back 5
15:23minutes later all the defendants are
15:24guilty and each one of sentence of death
15:27and many of them were executed okay
15:29there were about a thousand people who
15:31tried that way more than a thousand and
15:35um several hundred were executed I don't
15:37think they were I'm sure they weren't
15:39all executed they were then shipped off
15:40to lansburg prison which was known as
15:42war crimes Prison number one mhm
15:46uh and by that time I had had it I had
15:51joined have been 40 middle of 45 this
15:54was uh yes I was in in the camps I
15:57remember on Mayday 19 1945 the war ended
16:00in May 7th depending where you were uh I
16:02remember celebrating Mayday celebration
16:04I think it was in mous I was moving so
16:07fast I didn't know the name of the camp
16:08where it was I knew the name of the town
16:10you know but uh and uh well the war was
16:15over we had won the war I had joined the
16:17army to do my bit I went home um I sted
16:20away on a ship on a troop transport and
16:23went
16:23home the army of course took in view of
16:27my sudden disappearance how however they
16:30nevertheless gave me an honorable
16:31discharge and five Battle Stars and a
16:34letter from the president of the United
16:36States faimly A Grateful Nation thanks
16:38you for your services and I never
16:41intended to go back to Germany again or
16:43to have anything whatsoever to do with
16:46war crimes trials or war criminals that
16:48was my absolute intention I was going to
16:51go and practice law I had finished law
16:53i' been I'd gotten passed the bar exam
16:56while I was in the Army and that was my
16:58intent when I got a telegram from
17:01Washington saying Dear Sir they had
17:03never called me sir in 3 years in the
17:05Army would you please come to the
17:06Pentagon we'd like to talk to you at our
17:09expense okay so I went to the Pentagon
17:12there I was met by Colonel Mickey Marcus
17:15who was very a recruiter for the
17:17subsequent trials at that time and also
17:19for Jackson uh did you by just curiosity
17:22this would have been you kind of
17:24mustered out if you will at uh right
17:26after Christmas I was mustered out the
17:28day after Christmas
17:29were you following the trials at all was
17:31that I had I was aware of the trials
17:33that they were going on in Germany they
17:36had all of the
17:37spotlight uh nobody knew about the the
17:40daho trials um but I really wasn't
17:43following them in detail because I my
17:46goal was to get the hell out of there as
17:49fast as possible I had had it and um
17:54anyway uh Colonel Marcus as he was in a
17:57colonel said look we need you we want to
18:00send you back we'll make you a full
18:02Colonel to do essentially what I was
18:04doing as a sergeant of infantry and I
18:06said in the Army he said yes I said to
18:09get me in the Army you have to declare
18:11war on Germany again and be
18:15losing I said I'm not going back into
18:18the army again
18:20finished oh he said he said he was a
18:25tough New York boy you know and he said
18:28Benny he said we need you now and um you
18:32can go as a civilian with the same Rank
18:34and I said what does that mean he said
18:36well you have a simulated Rank and I
18:38said can I tell Lieutenant Colonel what
18:39to do and he said sure I said wait I'll
18:42let you know so I called up my sweetie
18:47who was Hungarian girl from Transylvania
18:49also and I said should be waiting
18:52patiently for 10 years or so well I went
18:54off to law school went off to the Army I
18:56said how would you like to go to Europe
18:57for a honeymoon she said this is so
18:59sudden I love it and so we were wed and
19:04I said I'm going off now to
19:06nberg and um
19:10I what uh Mickey Marcus had in mind for
19:13me was to go back to the dahal trials
19:15but tord Taylor who was also recruiting
19:18for the subsequent trials heard about it
19:20somehow and he hijacked me he called me
19:23in and he said uh look uh I'd like you
19:26to consider going back with me for these
19:27subsequent trials
19:29he said I've checked your record and I
19:32find that um you were very qualified but
19:36that you're occasionally
19:37insubordinate I said I'm sorry sir
19:39that's not correct I'm usually
19:42insubordinate I do not obey orders which
19:44I know are stupid and I don't obey
19:46illegal orders either I said but I've
19:49been checking up on you I don't think
19:51you'll give me any illegal orders he
19:53said you come with me so I went back
19:56then for a subsequent trial with t for
20:00his first assignment was to send me to
20:02Berlin he said you know about war crimes
20:05investigations
20:07documentation we have planned
20:09tentatively 12 trials and uh uh we don't
20:14we need the evidence to tie it to the
20:16defendants because if you have the
20:18evidence and no defendant you got
20:19nothing you got defendant no evidence
20:21you got nothing so you go and organize
20:23and find the evidence to convict
20:25industrialists Doctors Medical you know
20:28guys Justice Ministry foreign Ministry
20:30so I set up an office in Berlin with
20:32about 50 researchers combed all of
20:35Berlin for uh documentation set up an
20:38office in the form of foreign
20:40Ministry whatever we had the Berlin
20:42document Center very interesting
20:45establishment outside it looked like a
20:46little Villa typical Farmhouse Villa
20:50underneath Subterranean Channel box long
20:54loaded with 9 or 12 million Nazi party
20:57files any body who had ever been in the
20:59SS who had applied for membership in the
21:01party the files were there underground
21:03and we captured it and so I put staff in
21:06there we started going
21:08through and uh one day one of the
21:11researchers came up and he said look
21:13what I found he had three loose leaf
21:16type folders and these were reports from
21:20the front of
21:22the it was arnus m i the ud SSR which is
21:27what it was translated meant reports
21:30from the Soviet Union of these special
21:33units called einat grouin which nobody
21:35has ever been able to translate and they
21:38were called Murder squads their
21:40assignment was to go in behind the lines
21:44and eliminate any opposition or possible
21:48opposition to the German army or to
21:50their interests they translated that
21:52correctly as that was so intended that
21:55you murder in Cold Blood every Jewish
21:58man woman and child as well as every
22:01Gypsy you can get your hands on and
22:03anybody else that you think may be a
22:05possible threat to the rise and that's
22:07what they did and every day they
22:09reported almost every day back to
22:12headquarters in Berlin where they were
22:14assembled nice and neat so that I could
22:17pick it up and with a little adding
22:18machine ADD over a million people
22:21murdered in Cold
22:22Blood and I said that's enough I took
22:26samples of it I flew down to
22:29nberg General Taylor I said General
22:31we've got to put on another trial he
22:34said we can't we have a TR budget it's
22:37all been approved in Washington we have
22:39set trials we don't have staff I said
22:43but look it's coldblooded mass murder
22:45the documents are here he said could you
22:48do it in addition to your other
22:50responsibilities I said sure he said you
22:52got it so I became the chief prosecutor
22:55for the United States and what was
22:57surely the biggest murder trial in
23:00history I arrested my case after two
23:03days I didn't call a single witness
23:05because Witnesses are fallible I didn't
23:07need them I said I've got their records
23:09they can't deny it I'll cross-examine
23:11one against the other which is what I
23:13did I convicted all of them 13 of them
23:16had death
23:17sentences and uh they were all convicted
23:21of
23:21something and six of them were SS
23:24generals I didn't have any enlisted men
23:26in my defendants they were all selected
23:29on the basis of their education and
23:31their rank most of them had doctor
23:33degrees some of them had double doctor
23:36degrees uh and I was then 27 years old
23:41and it was my first case that made a
23:43pretty good record which I don't think
23:45they likely to beat at anytime soon one
23:47of the principal defendants was sort of
23:49a mat Idol looking guy out olor oh yes I
23:54will tell you about Otto olol Otto olol
23:57was the lead lead defendant is that all
24:00right you want me to just continue this
24:01kind of a narrative this is incredible
24:03all right a olol was the lead defendant
24:07according to his reports his unit Ein
24:10group of D had murdered in Cold Blood
24:13over 90,000 people mostly Jews of course
24:18they never called it murder they said
24:21they were
24:22liquidated the town was
24:24cleansed uh they were transported they
24:28went on a Heavenly Journey himl fought
24:30they had such nice expressions for
24:33coldblooded murder when asked to explain
24:37to admit that he'd killed 990,000 people
24:39he said well I can't tell you that for
24:41sure because sometimes the troops
24:43bragged about the body count they
24:45exaggerated might have been less could
24:47it have been 70 or 880,000 yeah it could
24:49have been and now the most interesting
24:52thing of the whole trial for today
24:55particularly was why did you kill the
24:58Jews why did you kill all those people
25:01and the answer came back very loud and
25:03clear in a rather contemptuous tone well
25:08we knew that the Soviets were planning
25:10to attack us and therefore it was
25:14necessary for us to anticipate that
25:17attack and have a preemptive attack
25:19against
25:20them and why did you kill all the Jews
25:24well we knew that the Jews were
25:25sympathetic to the bulvik and they
25:28therefore we had to kill the Jews and
25:31why did you kill the gypsies well the
25:33gypsies were unreliable couldn't come
25:35into an area and have gypsies running
25:37around so we had to kill all the Gypsies
25:39and why did you kill the children
25:41thousands of little
25:43children taken out in gas Vans and
25:46gassed on the way or half gassed on the
25:48way and dumped into a ditch why did you
25:50kill hundreds of thousands of children
25:53well if they grew up and they knew that
25:56we'd murdered their parents they would
25:57be enemies of Germany so we were
25:59interested in the long range security of
26:02Germany and therefore it was necessary
26:04to kill them too as if to say are you
26:06stupid of course that follows No Remorse
26:11whatsoever after he was sentenced to
26:13death I went down in the death house for
26:15the first time to talk to a manto man I
26:17thought he might say tell my five
26:20children I love them or we knew he was
26:22going to hang for sure or tell my wife
26:25something instead he said the Jews in
26:27America will suffer you'll see that I
26:29was right and I said goodbye Mr Oland
26:32and walked out the next thing I saw was
26:35a picture of him being hanged and him
26:37lying in a box uh what was particularly
26:41instructive in that was the
26:44argumentation as justification for the
26:48murder coldblooded murder of all those
26:50people and the attacks against all the
26:52countries that were
26:54invaded and um the court Miss mono in
26:57charge and the the Judgment said no that
27:00is no justification for killing
27:02anticipatory self-defense is no excuse
27:05because if all nations did that what
27:06would the world look like and today when
27:09I hear similar arguments coming out of
27:12high offices in the United States it
27:14sort of sends chilling reminders through
27:17me uh M Mano in his U book talks about
27:22ol andorf uh in the closing statement
27:26and he said ol andorf spoke first hold
27:28the courtroom Spellbound with a speech
27:30that would have done Justice to a chair
27:32of philosophy at the University of
27:34Berlin ARA Dion profound the discourse
27:37could have been addressed to students in
27:38history and political science and bore
27:40little resemblance to a plea for mercy
27:42and certainly none for exoneration while
27:44not exactly defending national socialism
27:47olor said that those who were attracted
27:50to it were longing for Spiritual support
27:52for a goal behind the social order into
27:55which they were born a goal which
27:57promised them TR human dignity firm
28:00human objectives and a spiritual and
28:02religious Center for their development
28:03into human beings he failed to tell us
28:06however how national socialism was to
28:07achieve that goal for if there was one
28:09thing which national socialism did not
28:11do it was to promote respect for human
28:14dignity and a spiritual religious
28:16development of human
28:18beings and it was mus mano's reaction to
28:21olendorf well M mano's reaction was a
28:24little bit stronger than that he
28:25sentenced him to death by hanging for
28:27the crimes of which you have been con
28:29convicted this tribunal sentenced you to
28:31death by hanging in a very dramatic
28:34procedure in the courtroom where he went
28:36down the list and sentenced 13 of them
28:38to death by hanging that was the and
28:41this is an American judge from appell
28:43court in a very fine judgment a
28:45carefully reasoned judgment uh holding
28:49that the uh
28:51preemptive anticipatory strike is no
28:55justification for the crime and those
28:57who commit him are sentenced as war
29:00criminals for the crime of aggression
29:02and other crimes against
29:04humanity as handsome as Otto olendorf
29:07was uh probably the extreme was Paul blo
29:10is it blobel yes Paul blobel he did the
29:13Baba job
29:1533771 Jews massacred one at a time in
29:18Cold Blood On 2930 September
29:211941 nice fell otherwise
29:25gosh you're Jewish yes I am and you
29:30are
29:31Prosecuting those who
29:34persecuted your
29:36race that must have been
29:40hard
29:42well uh I mean emotionally hard it was
29:46it
29:47was very hard in a way uh I didn't
29:53perceive that as a crime directed only
29:56against me because because although I
29:59was raised in Jewish tradition and came
30:00from an orthodox home originally um I am
30:04much personally much more tolerant of
30:06all religious views and um the only
30:10place that showed up and this I don't
30:11think I've ever recorded I didn't want
30:13to handle the olol cross
30:16examination I didn't want it to appear
30:19that this young Jewish boy is taking
30:21this handsome German general father of
30:24five children who killed 90,000 Jews and
30:27I'm persecuting him or picking on him
30:29for that so I asked James Heath Jim
30:33Heath to handle the cross examination
30:36now Jim
30:37Heath uh he's dead now and so is Taylor
30:42so I can tell the tale Jim Heath Taylor
30:44said fire him he was an
30:46alcoholic and um he couldn't concentrate
30:49on his work and he and I had been
30:53roommates somewhere when we first came
30:54to nurg and I liked him and I said Jim
30:58you're going to have to pull yourself
30:59together I'm going to give you the
31:00chance to cross-examine the lead
31:02defendant and what is certainly the
31:03biggest meta trial in history if you
31:05blow it you're out I can't save you um
31:09and
31:10I said to T Taylor I said look let me
31:14handled him uh we're going to give Jim
31:17Heath the chance he can do it he's got
31:18the ability he just can't pull himself
31:21together and he came from uh Virginia or
31:26Carolina I'm not sure any anymore I
31:28think it was Virginia and he was a
31:30southern gentleman handsome spoke with a
31:32Southern draw and very polite the
31:35Virginians are the southerners are and
31:38he went to orand and he just took him
31:40through the paces
31:42quietly so would you tell us why you
31:45know you did so and so miss Mana would
31:47be jumping in from time to time with a
31:50little more eagerness he was the Italian
31:53temperament in him but Jim Heath was
31:55going SP did a first class job even
31:57Taylor agreed it was a first class job
32:00and the reason I did that uh was simply
32:04because I thought it would be a more
32:07persuasive presentation if it didn't
32:09appear to be a
32:11Jew out of Vengeance trying to hold
32:14accountable this important Nazi figure
32:18uh now I wasn't interested in glory for
32:21myself I was interested in bringing out
32:24the truth in the best possible way and
32:27um that may be a long answer to your
32:29question uh but uh another incident
32:33which relates to your question uh I went
32:37into the camps I wasn't looking for Jews
32:39particularly these were inmates they
32:41were they were people you know who were
32:42being stared and killed and made no
32:44difference to me you know what their
32:46background were was and uh on Mayday
32:511945 it's the week before the war ended
32:54officially uh there was a celebration in
32:57one of the camps S I don't remember if
32:59it was a or one of the big camps and
33:02they put up a big Tribune in the middle
33:03of the campgrounds with pictures of
33:05Stalin and pictures of Truman by that
33:08time and uh uh Churchill and the inmates
33:12were going to celebrate
33:14Mayday and they were marching different
33:16columns carrying the French flags and
33:18the Czech flags and the Yugoslavian
33:20flags and and then another group with no
33:22Flags I said who are they said well
33:24they're the Jews I said why aren't they
33:27marching the others no no the Jews
33:30marched separately So within the camps
33:33among the inmates there was the same
33:36discrimination against the Jews is that
33:39an interesting thing never read that no
33:42a lot of things I've seen that nobody's
33:44ever
33:45heard were you surprised with the
33:48verdicts when they came down uh you know
33:51there we're all convicted but certain
33:53received death by
33:55hanging um there two had a very
33:58interesting reaction first of all I
34:00didn't ask for the death
34:02penalty uh not that I think they didn't
34:05deserve it if there someone had said
34:07that they murdered a million people we
34:08should chop them all up into a million
34:10pieces and feed them to the dogs I would
34:12have thought that would not have been
34:13inappropriate under those circumstances
34:16but I felt it was not for me to tell
34:19missbo or the other judges what to do uh
34:22very often prosecutors did that there
34:25was a French newspaper headline shu
34:27deand look at I demand their heads I
34:30never said that on the contrary I said
34:33nothing I said I wanted them to give us
34:36a judgment which
34:38would protect use the rule of law to
34:43ensure that no people were killed
34:45because of their race or their
34:48ideology um or their religion because
34:51that the reason these people were killed
34:54they didn't share the race of the
34:55ideology religion of their executioners
34:57and I thought that was a horrible thing
35:00and I still do and uh I pleaded with the
35:03court to use the rule of law to make
35:05that impossible in future I said if
35:06these men be immune then law has lost
35:09its meaning and man must live in fear
35:12and uh I have followed that philosophy
35:15ever since um now when the sentences
35:19were handed down I had a scorecard this
35:21to what I thought would might be the
35:23sentences for each one miss man was more
35:26severe than I would have
35:29guessed uh it was customary at nberg
35:32that the chief prosecutor of a case at
35:34the end of the trial to celebrate the
35:35end of the trial whether it was good or
35:37bad verdict would have a party for the
35:40whole staff and I invited the whole
35:41staff to come to my home for a party
35:43that
35:45evening I couldn't go to my own party I
35:48had such a splitting headache from the
35:50tension in the room I was totally
35:53depressed instead of celebrating you
35:55know great victory thought it was a
35:58great Victory guy in his first case you
36:00know convicts everybody man M I didn't
36:03think it was a great victory at all I
36:05didn't think about that at all I felt
36:07rotten uh and I just went to bed instead
36:10of going to my own party so it had a
36:13u rather strange effect I would not have
36:16anticipated that myself but that's the
36:18way it
36:19was and I don't think anybody else has
36:21gotten this on tape either
36:23yeah and and specifically why it was
36:26rotten or why you felt rot
36:29I don't know I can't answer that really
36:33uh first it was more severe than what
36:35what I would have
36:36done uh and to listen one after another
36:39for the crimes of which you have been
36:41convicted this tribulant sentence you to
36:42death by hanging and the guy takes off
36:45the earphones step back the door closes
36:48in front of him he drops down into hell
36:50the next one come puts on the earphones
36:53a lobal for the crimes of which you've
36:56been convicted this Tribunal sentences
36:58you to death by
36:59hanging off come the earphones and down
37:02he goes down into hell um you could have
37:06heard a pin drop in the courtroom you
37:09know that's my recollection of it now
37:11that's 60 years ago um but I'm sure this
37:15recollection is very
37:17precise just you're it's more than
37:20precise this is musano I was just
37:22reading this uh talk about the elevator
37:27and and ex it LIF and he said then again
37:30was heard the soft hum of the elevator
37:32machinery and once more the door of Fate
37:35was moving this time he talked about
37:37hinos slight bu stepped forward into the
37:40bright lights of the fluorescent
37:42chandeliers picked up adjusted the
37:44earphones look forward to the bench
37:46expectedly only a few seconds was needed
37:48for the sentence they talk about your
37:51found guilty the tribunal sentenced you
37:52to life imprisonment defendant bowed low
37:55came to an araq position again expressed
37:57expression lighted as if he had heard
37:59the cord say you are hereby notified
38:01you're going to a luxury tour around the
38:03world be perhaps the penal he talks
38:06about going into the elevator hearing
38:08the Machinery go down and up comes
38:11Global and the hearing again the
38:13elevator ascended and descended like the
38:15perpendicular swinging of the P pendulum
38:18of Fate all of the defendants with the
38:20exception of two took their medicine
38:22without a weapon so that elevator it was
38:24a lift it went around in a circle it
38:26didn't go up and down it went in a
38:28circle constantly around on the top the
38:30thing turned over and went down and it
38:32was sort of like a dumb waer uh we
38:35called of the Black
38:36Mariah uh and that's where it would you
38:38could hear it Clank Clank Clank Clank
38:40Clank it would go to the top and come
38:41down on the other side stop at the door
38:43the door sliding panel would open and
38:45the defendant would step forward look at
38:47the tribunal put on the earphones stand
38:49of attention you know and time that
38:52you've convicted the brunal send you to
38:54death by
38:55hanging take it off no no expression
38:58nothing none of the defendants had any
39:00remorse whatsoever quite remarkable that
39:04was the biggest disappointment for me in
39:06Germany I never found
39:08somebody who said he was
39:11sorry sometimes they said some kind
39:13words but those were people who were
39:14kind people had nothing to be sorry
39:16about among the criminals nothing the
39:19closest you could come with one one of
39:21them cingle Hof slid his wrists and uh
39:25said something about he I see now this
39:27terrible blasphemy which has been
39:29committed you know and so on a
39:31recognition but regret I'm sorry to say
39:34there was none and uh that awareness
39:38stays with me today there are people who
39:41believe that their perception of a
39:45righteous World Order is so powerful and
39:48so overwhelming that they're ready to
39:49die and kill for that and um without
39:53regret and we see it today and I mean
39:56literally today and yesterday today and
39:58tomorrow so we got a long way to go and
40:00I've been working on it for 50 years
40:02trying to change the way people think
40:04and that's what brings me here today as
40:08well at the uh I groupin trial to what
40:12extent was the uh the shadow of the IMT
40:17and and Jackson's work there part of
40:20what your work was there was there all
40:22the time in fact I was very much moved
40:25by Jackson's opening statement if you
40:27read my opening statement as well you
40:30can see there there is a Jacksonian
40:33influence I try to pitch it on a high
40:35level this is a case of plea of humanity
40:39to law and uh none of this you know
40:42let's go get these these
40:45murderers um so Jackson had an enormous
40:49influence on me personally by virtue of
40:52his judgment and his approach and tord
40:54Taylor had the same uh t for t I got to
40:57know him very well we were law partners
41:00of sorts in the later years and uh they
41:04were both outstanding men of highest
41:07moral quality and integrity and
41:10excellent lawyers and both of them good
41:12writers Jackson said that I mean Taylor
41:15said that Jackson wrote
41:17with on the wings of angels or something
41:22like that uh and it couldn't be matched
41:24and he was right I mean you and his best
41:26Jackson was
41:27couldn't be beat you know that pass
41:30these defendants of poison chalice is to
41:32put it to our own lips as well the four
41:35Great Nations stung with injury stay the
41:37hand of Vengeance and subject their
41:39captive enemies to the Judgment of the
41:41law is the greatest tribute that power
41:44has ever paid to reason these are
41:47memorable statements and um they
41:50certainly had an influence on me and uh
41:53on on what I did not only the trials but
41:56in the later years as well
42:00in fact one of your uh uh statements
42:03during I think it was your opening
42:04statement uh was recited in the United
42:07Nations uh yes as a matter of fact
42:10that's very nice of you to remember that
42:13it um when the first president of the
42:17international criminal Tribunal for
42:18Yugoslavia and for Rwanda had to render
42:21his report to uh the security Council
42:25and the general assembly were two two
42:27places of the activities in his court he
42:30ended his 50-page report and I found it
42:32by chance I had picked up the report at
42:34the UN I had no idea was in I'm reading
42:36and I come to the last lines and he says
42:38as Benjamin Fen said in the einot group
42:41in
42:41case if these men be immune then law has
42:45lost its meaning and man must live in
42:47fear so that also became an inspiration
42:52for those who were working on this about
42:5550 years almost to the day
42:57of the time I uted it in the nberg
42:59courtroom
43:02was how did U how did the group of the
43:06nurenberg
43:08prosecutors gather together as a group
43:11an NGO and ultimately you and Whitney
43:14Harris and
43:16Henry were part of that Rome treaty
43:19negotiation how' that all
43:20happen well the way that happened was
43:24there two strands there are two
43:26different questions there um first how
43:30did the Nur Bergers get
43:32together I had continued my effort to
43:36create an international criminal court
43:38which had been the anticipation after
43:40nberg and the decision of the United
43:41Nations and of course it went a because
43:43of the cold war nothing happened but I
43:45got involved as an NGO um for various
43:50organizations uh and try to promote that
43:53I went to all the meetings and I wrote
43:54articles and I wrote books and and stuff
43:56like that that and um at one of the
44:00meetings we had one of the lawyers there
44:03from Human Rights Watch as a matter of
44:04fact said Ben why don't you bring the
44:08nberg lawyers together and U so you have
44:11another NGO the nberg prosecutors taking
44:13a stand that's a good idea we're having
44:16a reunion in Washington I think it was
44:18the nergers and I'll raise the question
44:21there we'll pass a resolution in support
44:23of the international criminal court and
44:24I drafted the resolution came to the
44:27reunion in Washington and he said talk
44:29to a few of the lawyers there tford and
44:32by that time tord was a little bit
44:34already showing the signs of age he was
44:36about 90 and uh close to it and um so we
44:41got together and had lunch and there was
44:42Whitney and there was Henry King and
44:43there was about three or four others and
44:46U I said look how about uh uh we set up
44:52an organization and we become a sort of
44:54a Lobby for the for the I for
44:57international criminal court they that's
44:58a good idea okay so we had to elect
45:00somebody president there was spro was
45:02there too and Bel mayor and uh so we
45:06chicked Whitney because he had been with
45:08Jackson and the rest of us were mostly
45:10subsequent proceeding guys we may have
45:12had one or two others and we finally put
45:14together a group of about 12 or 13 still
45:17living
45:18prosecutors and we called it nberg
45:21prosecutors or something or other and
45:22Whitney was the coordinator or the chair
45:25of that group
45:27um when the Rome statue was coming
45:31up I had set up a peace center so-called
45:35at PACE law school where I had been
45:37working as an Adjunct professor when two
45:39of my kids were students there and I did
45:42it more as a lock at I was I don't know
45:4360 70 years old and I wanted to teach
45:46the Law of Peace that's what I was
45:47teaching so I had managed to get that
45:50pace Peace Center accredited for
45:53purposes of participating in the Rome
45:55statute and but I want to get the nberg
45:57is you could send I think two or three
45:59people and that's it I said we got the
46:01nberg group too and I gave the names of
46:03Whitney and Henry and uh said they
46:06should also be accredited to come to
46:09Rome and uh do that and you know join in
46:13that well so that worked out that way I
46:17was I suppose honored I think the only
46:19one of the kind to make to address the
46:21delegates you'll find that statement on
46:23my website my address that r s begins
46:26and I've come to to Rome to speak for
46:28those who cannot speak and it was a very
46:32successful U and moving address and uh
46:36Whitney came there and he was there for
46:39quite a while unfortunately his wife was
46:40with him at the time got ill and had to
46:42rush away Henry if he stuck his head in
46:44it was about that was about
46:47it he was an
46:50attendee the conference and U so uh
46:54that's how that came about but we
46:57together through using Whitney as the
47:00central Focus unfortunately Whitley
47:02Whitney is now about 92 he going to be
47:05here tomorrow I hope I expect we were
47:07together in nberg and we did a thing
47:09there not a few weeks ago and uh he it
47:12was not computer savvy and so you know
47:15we didn't have too much correspondence
47:17going in and out on the old system but
47:19nevertheless it was there and gradually
47:21the people have died off and now they're
47:23only the three of us
47:25left good for you for keeping that flame
47:29alive do you get a you get a sense Ben
47:33at this stage of the game
47:35that the United States will join and if
47:39so
47:42when this Administration will certainly
47:45not join that's absolutely clear
47:49eventually I expect they will and I base
47:52that expectation on several
47:55considerations first of all the present
47:57attitude is so stupid that it's almost
48:01incredible it has been described by some
48:04learned people as bordering on insanity
48:08and I think there be a polite way of
48:10putting it for
48:12example we are going
48:14around and threatening and we have
48:17succeeded in threatening intimidating
48:19about a 100
48:22countries they
48:24must undertake an obligation to give
48:27immunity to any American or any
48:30American's employee against any
48:33possibility of being sent to the he for
48:37trial now I tell you why this is
48:40absolutely
48:42stupid first of all everybody who is
48:45confronted with that is
48:48insulted many of them say look you're
48:51threatening to take away your military
48:52assistance you're threatening to take
48:54away financial assistance which we use
48:55to combat terrorism
48:57or drug trafficking if you take it away
48:59we haven't got the planes we haven't got
49:01the help we can't help you in that we
49:03don't care either you sign or you're
49:07out the number of people countries that
49:10have been antagonized over 100 the
49:12number of people helped how many
49:14Americans have been protected by that is
49:17zero not one will ever be protected by
49:21that
49:22stupid immunity agreement which Johan
49:25Bolton is the leading actor on behalf of
49:27Jesse Helms has been ramming down the
49:31throat of a 100 Nations who view us as
49:34an arrogant stupid bully and uh not
49:38without cause so because it's stupid
49:41they they can't be stupid Forever you
49:42can't fool all the people all the time
49:44and they can't be that stupid Forever
49:46when they see that this court poses no
49:48real threat except to criminals the
49:52innocent need never fear the rule of law
49:54MH uh when they see it opposes no
49:57through it certainly not to service
49:59people this is a the this court is only
50:02designed to deal with the leaders of
50:05those who plan and participate in
50:10perpetrating few crimes the first crime
50:13is genocide the next one is crimes
50:16against humanity the next one is major
50:18war crimes aggression which is my
50:20favorite the Supreme International crime
50:23has been put in a side pocket because of
50:25the United States pressure and whether
50:27it'll ever be able to come out of that
50:28pocket I don't know I'm working like mad
50:30to do that I'm lecturing here tomorrow
50:33in Washington and I will certainly make
50:35that point to try to keep that alive as
50:37I tried very hard in Rome and it just by
50:39the skin of its teeth stayed in so every
50:43nation has the prior right to try their
50:45own criminals it's written in the
50:47statute the prosecutor who is supposed
50:50to be there to pose a threat to American
50:52Service members Luise Marino compo I
50:55made the speech inaugurating into his
50:57office a distinguished human rights
50:58lawyer activists from Harvard University
51:00we were together in Harvard last week uh
51:04the idea of him going out and
51:06persecuting American Service members is
51:09absurd he's under the supervision of the
51:11Assembly of State parties all those who
51:13have ratified it including France
51:15England Canada Australia the European
51:18Community all of Americans they would
51:20fire him like a shot if he ever did such
51:22a thing of course he never would and so
51:24these arguments which have been raised
51:26in position uh in a polite article that
51:29I wrote all of this is on my website
51:31wwwb for.org saying of misguided fears
51:36of the United States that's one my
51:39polite mood if you ask me for my
51:41unpolite mood I think it's idiotic
51:44idiotic and uh America will not want to
51:49be left behind this court will go
51:51forward now of course without the United
51:54States and with the United States trying
51:56to kill
51:57which is what they're trying to do they
51:59tried to abort the baby before it was
52:01born now they're trying to kill it in
52:02the Cradle but they will not succeed
52:06because it makes sense to instead of
52:08having all of these little tribunals
52:10popping up if you had a court imagine
52:12what the world would look like today if
52:1420 years ago we had an international
52:15criminal court you wouldn't have the
52:17problem with Saddam Hussein today you
52:19wouldn't have the problem with mosovich
52:20you wouldn't have all the problems today
52:23which are you going to have a trial in
52:25Sierra Leon are you going to have one in
52:26Cambodia and so on so it's part of the
52:30evolutionary process that the Newberg
52:32principles laid down beginning with
52:34Jackson uh Taylor and all the others who
52:37followed uh is vital for a peaceful and
52:41Humane world and um we are moving in
52:44that direction but it takes a long time
52:46to change the way people think and we
52:48are so busy glorifying war and killing
52:51that to turn that around will take
52:53several Generations at least I am now
52:56past
52:5785 and uh I will not live to see it but
53:01nevertheless I am confident that I see
53:04how many things have changed we have
53:06given up slavery which divided this
53:09country we have given Women rights which
53:12we never had before we have abandoned
53:15colonialism these required major changes
53:18in the way people think and I could give
53:19you a half a does more uh so you can
53:22change the way people think providing
53:24you stay with it you need patience you
53:26need perseverance you have to have
53:27education you have to people have to
53:29learn tolerance instead of hatred they
53:31must be willing to compromise with even
53:33their strongest held ideals in order to
53:36maintain peace in the world all of these
53:38things can be done and are happening but
53:41one human life is not long enough to
53:44see reaching the ultimate goal but
53:47because I'm confident and because I
53:49lecture all around mostly I try to
53:51lecture to Young students they are full
53:53of enthusiasm full of Hope with a new
53:56communic ation
53:58Revolution we cannot predict how long it
54:00will take because the world is going to
54:02change in ways we cannot imagine and I
54:06think that because of nberg and because
54:09of those principles that all human
54:11beings are should be allowed to live in
54:13peace and dignity regardless of their
54:15race or Creed and that we can do it that
54:17eventually we'll get there God bless you
54:20for doing this this it's terrific on
54:23that happy
54:24note you know you really are a a
54:27standard bear B and uh uh you
54:31know and you need to know that and I'm
54:34I'm sure people tell you that but you
54:35need to be hugged every once in a while
54:37for what you're doing and it's often not
54:38easy you often don't I I don't I don't
54:41care for plots of the crowd I do what I
54:44do because partly because it's trauma
54:47what I've seen uh it's intolerable to me
54:51um partly because I'm me I can't answer
54:54anything else that's it
54:56your light is flashing I think it's
54:59saying you've had enough well this has
55:01been terrific thank you Ben for R okay
55:04you're very welcome

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