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BBC Documentary - Expenses: The Scandal That Changed Britain — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:04now on bbc2 with repetitive flashing
0:07images expenses the scandal that changed
0:11Britain the bricks at referendum
0:18delivered a challenge to members of
0:20parliament how to deliver the will of
0:22the people the old way of politics is in
0:28crisis you either have a representative
0:30democracy or you have direct democracy
0:33and we're in an awful muddle between the
0:36two the fragile trust between the
0:38British deadlock division despair and
0:42the members of this house a wholesale
0:44mistrust of our entire political class
0:47the public's willingness to leave it to
0:50the professional politicians is
0:52disappearing fast as we scramble for
0:55answers as to how we got into this
0:57political mess is there something we've
0:59overlooked mistrust that may just have
1:02its roots in a chapter one long decade
1:05ago two laboratory seats machito beams
1:09dog meat and tampons they know that
1:12their plan system and it's wrong MP is
1:15accused of being on the take when a
1:17national newspaper blew the lid on their
1:19expensive system we wanted to see
1:21whether our political masters have been
1:24defrauding us the answer was yes
1:28in a country still reeling from the
1:31financial crisis do you know what it's
1:33about
1:33jealousy I've got a very very large
1:36house this is the story of what happened
1:39I do know at one point my news I just
1:42mean back in his charity like remind me
1:44who were thrown to the Lions today how
1:47the drama unfolded if we claimed for
1:50expenses that we're not to do with our
1:52job we'd be crucified enough to resign
1:54we deserve what we got
1:56there was a rotten system and the legacy
1:58the expenses scandal left behind to
2:01confirm some people's worth suspicions
2:03that people go to politics are of their
2:06for personal gain
2:08how much did those events rewrite the
2:11relationship between parliamentarians
2:13none of them have a clue what's going on
2:15in normal people's lives and the public
2:17it was definitely a catalyst in the loss
2:20of faith that people had generally in
2:22Parliament how much did it redirect the
2:26whole course of British politics
2:29[Music]
2:40[Music]
2:57the parliamentary archives are home to
3:00500 years of our laws and it's perhaps
3:03the perfect irony the damage done to
3:06public trust through the expensive
3:08scandal can be traced right back to here
3:11parliamentary efforts to pass
3:12legislation that would ultimately lead
3:15to greater openness
3:16[Music]
3:18it was the Freedom of Information Act
3:21passed in 2000 that would come into
3:24effect five years later that allowed the
3:26public to request information that had
3:28previously been under lock and key and
3:31it was the MPS attempt to exempt
3:33themselves from it that would ultimately
3:36see the whole thing blow up in their
3:38faces it was going to be a sea change in
3:44Britain it was going to really shift the
3:46balance of power
3:48[Music]
3:54Heather Brooke a journalist and
3:56campaigner who'd worked in the u.s.
3:58wanted to use the new law to help the
4:00British public better understand how
4:02their money was being spent the way I
4:05was taught to be a journalist in America
4:07and when you do journalism largely in
4:09America is through public records and
4:11when I came to Britain there there
4:12really were no public records then came
4:17foi
4:18people had been kind of kept like
4:20mushrooms you know keep them in the dark
4:22and feed them a sort of a diet of crap
4:26but it transpired that Parliament quite
4:29liked the mushroom approach
4:33heather's many attempts to see MPs
4:36expenses details were blocked resulting
4:38in a lengthy legal battle to her
4:41surprise she won but the actual process
4:45of releasing the information was delayed
4:47and delayed finally Parliament had
4:55agreed to release the expenses data in
4:57the form of a million and a half
4:58digitized receipts there was just one
5:01problem much of it would be redacted on
5:05the surface it was to protect sensitive
5:08information in reality began to make a
5:11mockery of the entire process
5:16the job of redaction took place in
5:18secret it was mostly done by civil
5:21servants but there were others in the
5:23room who we understand report of what
5:26they were seeing
5:35off-duty soldiers were employed to look
5:38after security in that room many were on
5:41leave from tours of Iraq and Afghanistan
5:43and working to earn extra cash to pay
5:46for their own kit when you go to war you
5:51expect your government to look after you
5:53and there was a feeling the government
5:55wasn't looking after them the equipment
5:57wasn't what they were expecting and
6:00within the contract for the redaction
6:03there were some moonlighting soldiers
6:04home on leaf and rather being with their
6:07families they were working to but to
6:09make money to buy boots and divine
6:12lightweight body armor they were seeing
6:16the expenses you've seen it from Kit
6:19Kats
6:20so widescreen TVs the duck houses your
6:25everything thinking this is unreal and
6:28he wasn't just the soldiers on leave it
6:31was the civilian contractors and the
6:33civil servant staff during this whole
6:35redaction process the shared anger
6:41spawned a leak from someone desperate to
6:44get the information out let the public
6:46know what was going on inside that room
6:49they copied a hard drive with its
6:51millions of details details that could
6:54fracture that relationship between
6:56Parliament and its people they chose
7:00former SAS officer John wick to get the
7:03story out they had to trust me that I
7:06would go to jail before identified them
7:10he would have gone to jail to protect
7:11your source of course
7:14before wicks eventual deal with the
7:17Daily Telegraph samples of the leaked
7:19data made it into some of the newspapers
7:21The Mail on Sunday introduced the public
7:23to the MPS second home allowance for a
7:27second home did I do really well that
7:33you've been doing your homework I'm dear
7:34I've been doing your second right so
7:39you're claiming expenses on a second
7:41home when you have three and you've got
7:43an income coming in from it no House of
7:50Commons is in such a mess these
7:51allowances of God to stop the story had
7:59much further to go but the sauce wanted
8:02the whole system exposed not just one
8:04party nor certain MPs when someone
8:08brings you information that shows
8:09wrongdoing
8:10you are almost obliged to find every way
8:12you can to publish will Lewis was the
8:16Daily Telegraph's youngest ever editor
8:19barely 40 years old
8:21hungry motivated and about to secure the
8:24scoop of the decade we put in place this
8:29room of my crack squad of journalists to
8:32examine the documents as fast as they
8:35possibly could really in depth to see if
8:37a it was significant information be if
8:41it could be verifiable and see what
8:43stories we may choose to publish out of
8:45it it was almost like we didn't know
8:48where to start it was like you know we
8:50just had all these MPs look at hundreds
8:52of them and you know we had the Prime
8:54Minister's phone bill and we just it was
8:55just almost too much to take on board
8:59[Music]
9:01every MP would be sent a list of
9:03questions points allegations to answer
9:06way ahead of time so we basically had
9:10sent out this right to replies to
9:11basically entire cabinet and Jack Shaw
9:14was the first one to come back just as
9:17Secretary Jack Straw confirmed he'd over
9:19claimed accidentally he said for the
9:22council tax and mortgage of his
9:23constituency home which he'd repaid but
9:26in responding he was also confirming
9:29that the data the telegraph had was
9:31genuine until that landed I did I was
9:36not absolutely convinced and we're gonna
9:38publish they were good to go we finished
9:44with press publication around 9:00 9:30
9:47thought I better take the team for a
9:49drink you know to show that kind of you
9:52know we're all together
9:53got to the pub just in time asked them
9:56to switch on BBC News which the pub
9:59Mandal to Andorra then to see tonight
10:04attend the expense claims of several
10:07cabinet ministers are revealed in detail
10:09the Prime Minister is among 13 senior
10:11ministers including Jack Straw hazel
10:13players whose details have been leaked
10:15the details are still emerging but
10:17Downing Street insists that the rules
10:19were followed
10:26over the coming days some sensational
10:29coverage would open the public's eyes to
10:31the financial shenanigans inside
10:33Parliament they knew it was coming and
10:35they knew it would be embarrassing and
10:37they were right from porn films to bath
10:39plugs tin-opener to lavatory seats
10:41multitude of beams dog meat and tampons
10:44last one apparently for a male MP
10:45absolutely ridiculous what they're
10:47claiming for chandelier source manure
10:50swimming pools housekeepers I'm
10:51absolutely appalled that's it Hobnobs
10:54cleaners fantastic I don't believe all
10:55those stuffs on the same shelf an
10:58institution that had sought to control
11:01the release of its members expenses with
11:03lots of these was suddenly shoved into
11:06the light I have to have somewhere to
11:08live in London so unready what happens
11:12is an MP makes a claim to that so the
11:15house is amazing they don't they don't
11:17get paid out unless they're within the
11:19rules unwilling it's a classic a smear
11:22this you take a germ of truth you
11:24distort it in order to turn it into
11:27something that it isn't
11:29unable never in all my years as a
11:31political reporter as a political
11:33journalist have I known that the entire
11:35class of democratic politicians are
11:37simply not in control of events
11:40[Music]
11:45I remember being in the shower listening
11:55to the today program leaked details of
11:57expenses claimed by Gordon Brown and
11:59twelve cabinet ministers have been
12:00published in a national newspaper
12:02because The Daily Telegraph started with
12:06the cabinet and he actually said on that
12:08news only three members of the cabinet
12:10which I think was me Hilary Benn and Ed
12:13Miliband I wouldn't mentioned at all so
12:17the feeling of relief as I stepped out
12:18of the shower he liked the Telegraph had
12:21splashed images of Gordon Brown and his
12:23brother across its first front page
12:25arguably making Brown a poster boy for
12:28the various revelations that were to
12:30follow
12:30Gordon was singled out I mean he was the
12:33Prime Minister it was a prime minister
12:34and there was a cleaning bill somewhere
12:37that his brother had dealt with I mean
12:38it was nothing absolutely nothing
12:40because he was the Prime Minister it was
12:42blown up he was very hurt by that that
12:48splash turned out to be a blunder in the
12:50Telegraph's original presentation of its
12:52scoop Brown complained and subsequent
12:55mentions of the cleaning expenses story
12:57are now accompanied by a clarification
12:59that the paper wasn't alleging brown or
13:02his brother had done anything improper
13:04but the front page had already set the
13:07tone of the coverage that was to follow
13:09I remember what happened was that around
13:12about quarter to 9:00 at night about an
13:14hour and fifteen minutes before we would
13:15go on air there would be a big drop of
13:17what the Telegraph was doing the next
13:19day and we recognized that it was a huge
13:22story it was getting a lot of traction
13:24we'd never seen such audience response
13:26to it so we wanted to cover it and we
13:28wanted to cover it big but when you have
13:30that limited amount of time inevitably
13:32you're accepting somebody else's framing
13:35of the story and I think one of the
13:36problems that we had was that we didn't
13:39look enough in detail about the
13:41mitigation that went around it each
13:43story
13:44only a few weeks before the Telegraph's
13:47run of expensive stories the Prime
13:49Minister had proposed changes to the
13:51system of allowances with a memorable
13:53delivery
13:54he chose YouTube to get his message out
13:57now a detailed written statement setting
13:59out our proposals will be made by
14:01Harriet Harman but its main points are
14:02the additional costs allowance or second
14:05homes allowance should be abolished and
14:06replaced by a flat rate daily allowance
14:10the second home allowance enabled most
14:13MPs to claim expenses for an additional
14:16property the public heard stories of how
14:18MPs would change the status of their two
14:21homes called flipping so they could
14:23claim more in expenses community
14:27secretary hazel Blair's was one of the
14:29first to find herself in a flipping mess
14:31The Telegraph revealed she'd saved
14:33thirteen thousand pounds in tax when
14:35she'd sold a flat in London because HMRC
14:37knew it as her main residence but four
14:40months earlier she'd registered it with
14:42the Commons as her second home allowing
14:44her to claim expenses for it she denied
14:47flipping but it wasn't a good look as
14:50backbenchers followed the cabinet into
14:52print the public started to hear excuses
14:55that would be made infamous by MPs
14:58they'd hitherto never heard of
14:59everything that has been fully within
15:01the rules I have to be able to have a
15:04proper family life sometimes which I
15:07can't do unless I have you know I share
15:11the costs in Southampton over again well
15:13that's just a reason for paying tax
15:15payers money that's that's a private
15:16arrangement in her in a partner complied
15:18with the rules of the house the rules of
15:20the Inland Revenue they know that
15:21they're playing the system and it's
15:23wrong
15:27[Music]
15:36opposition leader David Cameron's
15:38efforts to deep toxify the Tory brand
15:41had involved images like this in the
15:45coming days that brand will become more
15:47associated with things like this this
15:51and of course this the mote belong to
15:57Douglas Hogg the expense was for
15:59cleaning it I have to have two hands as
16:04you can see in London during the week as
16:06is my wife and the house is wholly
16:08unoccupied consequently the cleaning and
16:11the maintenance and the over key and the
16:13looking after has to be done by somebody
16:16the MP for Gosport not him Peter Vegas
16:20became synonymous with the MPs expenses
16:22affair when the Telegraph journalists
16:24stumbled upon another kind of second
16:27home and Nick was like gather round
16:31rather and we sort of look to his
16:33computer and he was like what do you
16:36think that it's only like what is that
16:38he was like that's a duck coughs it
16:41didn't seem to matter that Viggers never
16:43actually planed for it he just left the
16:46receipt in a sack he'd handed over to
16:48the fees office
16:53the theme continues in the mirror where
16:56two of the birds are depicted asking a
16:57rather forlorn-looking so beautiful if
16:59his withdrawal as an MP means they won't
17:01be able to get the conservatory done
17:06there's more to the dark island coverage
17:08than amusing visual hijinks The Daily
17:10Telegraph enlists the services the
17:15purchase is ridiculous
17:23and the manual that was claimed by this
17:28man David Heathcott Amery had been a
17:30Somerset MP for over two decades and had
17:33worked in the governments of Margaret
17:34Thatcher and John Major I quite wrongly
17:37thought I had absolutely nothing to
17:39worry about because I was the lowest
17:41spender in total of the Somerset MPs and
17:45I've always been rather meticulous in
17:47putting in my detail claims you know the
17:49invoices and so on even even from small
17:52amounts in my constituency house in a
17:54village and Somerset I heard a somebody
17:56who came in to help with the garden when
17:58I wasn't there and he'd included some
18:00manure in in his expenses which he
18:03passed on to me could he kept horses and
18:07even only 388 pounds over the years but
18:13that was picked out as a headline Lord
18:18David Willetts had turned up in the
18:20Telegraph for billing the taxpayer for
18:22workmen to change his light bulbs money
18:24he paid back
18:25Willets was shadow skilled secretary at
18:28the time it was somewhere between sort
18:33of embarrassing and painful I think in
18:38many ways it reminded us of just how far
18:43the way in which we operate in the House
18:46of Commons have got detached from the
18:48common sense attitudes of the people who
18:51elected us
18:57the tales from The Telegraph gave new
19:00life to that weary public refrained
19:02they're all the same yet it wasn't so
19:05much the complex financial affairs but
19:08those everyday household items that
19:11really got the public riled
19:14[Music]
19:18now MPs were being seen as a bit like
19:21gifts if they could be trusted to do
19:23anything it was to feather their nests
19:26both of them at the taxpayers expense at
19:30the end of March the end of the
19:31financial year loads of them were just
19:34rushed down to John Lewis and spend
19:35money it was stuff like that it was
19:38actually just really outrageous it's
19:39kind of like I'm going to make sure I've
19:41maxed out how much I can spend and just
19:43do it
19:47we were to me deep in it to find any of
19:51it funny I mean this was a very very
19:53serious situation punctuated by things
19:56that people found funny but actually
19:58frankly were disgusting you had the
20:00whole issue of your livelihood your
20:03profession being demeaned in a way that
20:07practically no professional has ever
20:09been demeaned in such a rapid period of
20:11time Matthew Parris times columnist and
20:16former Tory MP was one of the few who
20:18could straddle both worlds I don't think
20:21the public were wrong to respond in the
20:25way that they did to what they read in
20:26the newspapers it was just there was so
20:28much more to it which if only people had
20:31understood I think they would have taken
20:33a more balanced view and I don't think
20:36journalists were wrong to make what hey
20:38they could with this because that's what
20:40journalists do were able to
20:42sensationalize and yet at the same time
20:44I don't think that politicians we're
20:47anything like is wrong anything like as
20:49culpable as they ended up seeming so it
20:52all added up to a horrible confusion in
20:55which a great many and justices were
20:57done and more importantly confidence in
21:00our politics in our Constitution in our
21:03elected representatives was I think
21:06undermined perhaps beyond repair
21:10they're not Bishop of Canterbury dr.
21:13Rowan Williams warned at the time of
21:15what he called the systematic
21:16humiliation of MPs saying it would
21:18threaten democracy in Britain now he
21:21reflects on the importance of what
21:22happened the expenses scandal was a bit
21:25of a watershed in that it it confirmed
21:29some people's worst suspicions that
21:31people go to politics are there for
21:34personal gain and however however small
21:38however statistically insignificant the
21:41percentages of people who are really
21:43raking in private profit from public
21:45service everyone is is tarnished by that
21:49I say it's a watershed because it's
21:53certainly a moment after which the sense
21:57of confidence that some people go into
22:02public service out of genuine vision and
22:04generosity that that begins to to wear
22:07away and where we are now with people's
22:09attitudes to Parliament has something to
22:11do with that I'm absolutely sure of that
22:13the single biggest mistake with the
22:15politics of the moment is to think you
22:16just encircle it all with this issue to
22:18do with trust without actually
22:20challenging some of the underlying
22:22assumptions of that of course
22:23politicians haven't sorted their
22:25expenses out everybody knew that that
22:27should be taken and sorted out in ways
22:30it just wasn't gripped it should have
22:32been great but all of that's completely
22:33true but out of it came a view and I
22:37think this was deeply unfortunate
22:39because it's in the end deeply unfair
22:40that politicians are all on the main I
22:43mean they're not and if you're dealing
22:45with politicians whatever political
22:47party the rim by the way the vast bulk
22:49of them come into politics wanting to do
22:51good in the world then come into
22:52politics for for a sort of narrow
22:55self-interest or certainly self-interest
22:57related to money
23:02the issue of MPs salaries had been
23:05rancorous for some time pay rises were
23:08generally put on ice MPs in the
23:11fifteenth century were paid in fish and
23:14produce from their local constituencies
23:17and if they didn't behave as they wanted
23:19then they didn't get their vegetables or
23:21fish by the beginning of the 20th
23:23century MPs were paid for the first time
23:25and then the question was how much
23:29recommendations were ordinarily rejected
23:32by the prime minister of the day not the
23:34right time the government saying so I'll
23:37give you that pay rise but look is this
23:39package of expenses you can claim and
23:42many of the old-timers say that the
23:45wimps would come into the tea room and
23:46say look fill your boots with that in
23:50the wake of the scandal EPSA would be
23:53created the independent parliamentary
23:55standards authority would go where prime
23:58ministers had feared to tread raising
24:00MPs wages controversial
24:04Sir Ian Kennedy boss of ipsa says MP
24:09should get 11% rise not quite right if
24:12you see him please throw feces at him
24:15feces is properly spelled which is at
24:19least him to his credit during the early
24:24days of the scandal it wasn't clear how
24:27seriously it would be taken I've cheated
24:30expenses I've fiddled things you have of
24:33course you have let's not confuse what
24:36politicians get really wrong things like
24:38Wars things where people die with the
24:40rather tedious bourgeois obsession with
24:43whether or not they've charged for their
24:44Wistaria and the idea that oh we've all
24:47lost faith in politics because it's
24:49nonsense which it's a journalistic
24:51made-up frenzy
24:54OMP Antony Steen put the whole business
24:57down to public NV I've done nothing
25:00criminal that's what it's awful thing
25:02and do you know what it's about
25:03jealousy I've got a very very large
25:05house some people say it looks like
25:07power mod what light does the public
25:09have to interfere with my private life
25:12none initially the Telegraph's critics
25:18including the Speaker of the House of
25:19Commons were less focused on how it all
25:22looked to the public and more on the
25:24question of how the data had been leaked
25:25is it the case that an employee an
25:29employee of this house should be able to
25:32handle hand over any private data to any
25:36organisation of Heather
25:38choosing we faced increasing calls for
25:41the police to intervene we had a whole
25:44series of critical pieces put out there
25:49so it really wasn't until this
25:52incredible question time in Grimsby that
25:56I really felt that we understood that
25:59the British public were 100% on our side
26:04welcome to question time
26:06tonight we're in Grimsby
26:10not long and hard devices as to whether
26:13like provide but I thought actually I
26:15had a kind of responsibility and
26:17obligation to go and do it because Ming
26:19Campbell you also were fingered by the
26:21Telegraph and then former leader of the
26:23Liberal Democrats Lord Ming Campbell had
26:26appeared in The Telegraph only the day
26:28before with details of nearly 10,000
26:30pounds worth of expenses for his London
26:32flat I asked for permission was given
26:35permission but was the benefit of
26:38hindsight I should have realized that I
26:42was being given permission in what was
26:44essentially a ramshackle system and one
26:47which was eventually going to be shown
26:49to be inadequate at the time which was
26:522006 then public perceptions about these
26:55things were quite different and I had of
26:58course submitted and I submitted it was
27:05the lion's den I mean the hunt was up
27:09the atmosphere right from the very
27:12beginning was enormously antagonistic
27:15towards the members of parliament on the
27:18panel they claimed that you're referring
27:19to which related to our garden
27:22expenditure yes that was a mistake it
27:25should not have been made
27:27there you are I told you how can we ever
27:29regain trust in our MPs who have shown
27:32themselves to be morally bankrupt and
27:35that's how it felt and I guess that the
27:42feeling that this is just pure greed in
27:46the working world if we claimed for
27:49expenses
27:49now we're not to do with our job we'd be
27:52crucified after resign maybe the only
27:54way that you will understand will be the
27:56results at the ballot box the anger
28:04wasn't confined to the question time
28:06audience locally MPs had constituents to
28:09face people nodding some found a
28:12sympathetic ear others well represent in
28:16the mood of that meetups an
28:17overwhelmingly opposed to you and you
28:19you weren't you didn't seem to have any
28:21degree of contrition the the mood of the
28:23meeting was in opposition to what you
28:24what you were saying and saying that
28:25what you're doing is in the wrong you're
28:27misrepresenting the mood of the meeting
28:28isn't the honorable thing to resign
28:34[Applause]
28:35um I can't understand your point of view
28:39I remember that dreadful phrase it was
28:41within the rules it seemed as if the
28:43anger directed at MPs made no
28:45distinction as to whether or not an MP a
28:47claim for a a bath mat or a second house
28:50and it made no difference if you were
28:54one of the MPs with clean hands you know
28:57you're in the supermarket in Sainsbury's
28:59you're packing your bag and someone you
29:02know four places back or so you're not
29:04going to put that on expenses Allan
29:17Telegraph editor will Lewis was feeling
29:20journalistically vindicated but at odds
29:22with the establishment professionally
29:24isolated until it became clear his
29:29papers investigation had earned him
29:31friends in rather five places so there
29:36are things like Lee
29:38lonely standing in front of the
29:41Telegraph Chelsea Flower Show garden no
29:44one was coming to our garden I was
29:46literally all on my own thinking what am
29:49I doing here I can't believe I've got
29:51myself into this situation when a man
29:53came scuttling along and whispered on
29:56Mia that Her Majesty was on her way and
29:59we had a very nice conversation and I
30:03was able to after his hot foot back to
30:06my office even more resolute and even
30:09more robust in my desire to continue
30:12with our investigative efforts so she
30:15wasn't just commenting on the garden
30:17then well I would never say what her
30:21Majesty said to me but I did go back
30:24full of resolution to continue our
30:28investigation right until the end
30:31tonight you can hardly move four MPs
30:34trying to hand money back to the
30:36taxpayers not that they've done anything
30:39wrong in their expenses claims you
30:41understand
30:45I've decided to send to the Inland
30:48Revenue a check which is the equivalent
30:50of what would have been paid in capital
30:53gains tax
30:54had it been liable tough message today
30:56mr. Cameron the Tories knew very well
30:58they had a very good chance of winning
30:59the next election Gordon Brown knew he
31:01had a very good chance of losing it
31:03in a way we got to a position where they
31:06were competing for who had the biggest
31:08hair shirt in handing over their members
31:12of their own parties and showing that
31:16they were guilty and that they were
31:17cleaning it up if it didn't make you so
31:25angry you know I might be able to see
31:27some sort of joke in it I mean it does
31:29make me unbelievably angry I just cannot
31:31think what these people were thinking
31:32the atmosphere amongst back benches was
31:35the party leaders weren't helping them
31:39at all
31:40people are writing out checks and
31:42handing them back into the House of
31:44Commons for excessive claims night
31:46dubbed Cameron and Clegg as the
31:48self-righteous brothers I will come down
31:49like a ton of bricks with any MP who is
31:52sought to defraud the taxpayer they were
31:54just driving art to find anything to
31:57beat their backbenchers with action has
32:00got to be taken MPs
32:02individually have got to explain
32:03themselves I had no idea of what to do
32:05we were rather left on our own really to
32:08try and explain ourselves and I wrongly
32:11camped on the thing that I had kept the
32:13rules I didn't realize until too late
32:15that it was the rules that were
32:17discredited and the fact they want to
32:19kept the rules was really no defense
32:21there were a lot of people who basically
32:23had not broken the rules but who were in
32:26the frame and who hung out to dry and I
32:30think I think I certainly felt at the
32:32time that that was was very unfair and
32:34would do politics further damage out of
32:37all proportion to the act actual level
32:41of guilt but there was a sort of tsunami
32:43of public outrage and when that happens
32:47you know the quiet voice of reason
32:51I'm afraid goes out of the window there
32:53was a crucial meeting when eventually
32:55golden brown then the prime minister
32:57summoned David Cameron and Nick Clegg
33:00for a kind of cross party discussion and
33:03the account I had of that afterwards was
33:06that golden brown had been very tribal
33:08it had been quite hard to get a sort of
33:11cross party atmosphere going and at one
33:13point during which way around this work
33:15either sort of nick clegg rolled his
33:18eyes looking at David Cameron or David
33:20Cameron rolled his eyes looking at Nick
33:21Clegg because they were both frustrated
33:23by the way Gordon Brown was handling it
33:26and who knows if that wasn't one of the
33:28moments when the future coalition began
33:32to take shape as all expenses were
33:37looked at afresh various MPs were
33:39instructed to hand back money the
33:41parliamentary fees office had originally
33:43approved we had to repair cleaning and
33:47everything to do with maintenance on the
33:52house hadn't allenge it but I would have
33:56dismantled the the mortgage interest
33:57relief claims which were some cases very
33:59large indeed it was within the rules for
34:04members to claim back the interest on
34:05the mortgages for their second homes
34:08David Cameron's own claims ran into
34:10thousands of pounds
34:13but what if those mortgages had been
34:16paid off yet the MP kept claiming Elliot
34:21Morley was Labour MP for Scunthorpe in
34:24many at mourn his case it took hours to
34:26print it all out get it all straight I
34:27actually sort of spoke to him and he was
34:30he sounded so chaotic and distraught and
34:34unhappy he and I both knew what was
34:38about to happen to him and his career it
34:41wasn't just his career in his case it
34:42was fraud Eliot Morley was one of five
34:47Labour MPs and two conservative peers
34:50who were eventually jailed we invited a
34:57number of MPs and former MPs to take
34:59part in this film including those who
35:01went to prison
35:02many declined telling us the impact this
35:05episode had on their personal and
35:07professional lives was so profound they
35:10simply couldn't face the camera and that
35:12ten years on they felt public opinion
35:14was still impossible to shift
35:18for some the nature of that opinion
35:21feels grossly unfair not only because
35:23the coverage seemed sensationalized but
35:26also because they believe the telegraph
35:28got things wrong although the paper went
35:30on to clarify its front-page splash
35:32about Gordon Brown others are still
35:35holding out hope for an apology for the
35:37way their stories were presented this is
35:41a copy of the Daily Telegraph for
35:43Wednesday June 3rd and the dreadful
35:46heading is mother and son both claimed
35:494-flat owned by her daughter that is a
35:52complete lie I did pay a reasonable rent
35:57as a provider fees office a very
35:59reasonable rent actually John didn't pay
36:04attendant and I find it really really so
36:08hurtful that to this day the telegraph
36:11have never apologized for this mistake
36:13and Cryer was then Labour MP for
36:17Keithley when it was sent to her for
36:20comment and immediately took issue with
36:22the Telegraph story about her and her
36:24son John who'd be an MP for Hornchurch
36:26I said so what where are you getting it
36:29from that he paid this money for full of
36:32her she said well it's it's not part of
36:34the London living allowance and so I
36:36look down it and I said yeah but that
36:38part is about paying for meals in
36:41Parliament you're confusing two issues
36:44and she said well she said it's too late
36:47you can't do anything about it he's gone
36:48to print as far as I'm aware
36:50everybody had a proper right to apply it
36:52we were very careful sometimes you know
36:55it was kind of kind right down through
36:56wire or like you need you this is going
36:58even if you're not getting the response
37:00back in time it's going and there was a
37:02lot of that but I think by and large I
37:05really got well you know they have the
37:07right to reply Anne had already planned
37:11to stand down at the 2010 election but
37:14the Telegraph's coverage clouded her
37:16remaining period as an MP he just
37:19brought you up you know it was just
37:20awful dreadful situation to be in and
37:25I've never really got over it that's why
37:28I'm talking to you today because I want
37:30to put the record straight
37:31well all of us here individually and
37:34collectively responsible to the electors
37:37for our actions
37:38David Heathcott a Murray lost his seat
37:40in 2010 he's moved on but is
37:42philosophical about what happened it's a
37:45painful subject but one I've come to
37:47terms with and I think although I'm not
37:50in public office and the eight years
37:52since I've been member of parliament I
37:53think I think it's some some way I'm
37:56accountable for the time that I was a
37:58representative and I think it's
38:01worthwhile examining and explaining
38:04partly to defend oneself against the
38:07grocer in a crisis but also to put it in
38:10context and to accept in a philosophical
38:13way that maybe the public were right
38:16it's it's it's that taxpayers money it's
38:20their Parliament and their MPs taxpayers
38:28knew full well it was their money
38:30whether they felt it was their
38:32Parliament was another matter the
38:34public's faith in parliamentarians had
38:36withered and so had mp's faith in their
38:38own stewardship we must all accept blame
38:43and to that extent I have that I have
38:48contributed to the situation I prefer I
38:51am profoundly sorry
38:54[Music]
38:59Michael Martin made history as the first
39:02speaker forced to resign in three
39:04centuries over his defensive handling of
39:07the affair but would there be any wider
39:11changes as a result of the scandal
39:13Howard the public punished the political
39:16class some talked of taking their votes
39:18elsewhere however BMP next on I think I
39:21always used to vote labor but the last
39:24twice I voted for the Conservatives but
39:27now you're thinking of switching to you
39:28Kipp because of the expensive scandal
39:30yes but within our electoral system or
39:35first-past-the-post voting for smaller
39:37parties was unlikely to make a
39:39significant difference we have a
39:42miserably disempowering electoral system
39:45in other countries they go into the
39:46polling booth they can put a vote for
39:48who they want to govern them and a vote
39:49for their local MP should be that's all
39:51too difficult for us we just get one
39:53cross on a bit of paper and if you
39:55happen to think that that person
39:57standing you don't want to form the
39:59government more bad luck
40:04it's hard to know what impact the
40:06expenses scandal ultimately had on the
40:08general election a year later in 2010 a
40:11record number of MPs stood down labour
40:14suffered at the ballot box and the Tory
40:16advances were pretty modest in fact
40:18fewer people voted for either main party
40:21than ever before and for that reason we
40:23got our first full coalition government
40:26since 1945 from that alliance sprung the
40:30referendum we're out no not that one
40:35David the one in 2011
40:39yes let's remember that referendum on
40:42electoral reform the first uk-wide
40:45binary vote since 1975 for anyone
40:48seeking democratic revolution the
40:50breakdown of trust caused by the
40:52expenses fiasco created an exciting
40:55opportunity I'm abiding memory was that
40:58as as everybody raked over individual
41:00items of expenses and duck houses to
41:02trouser presses and everything else in
41:04between what I was very keen was to try
41:09make a link between that expensive
41:12system which clearly need to be replaced
41:13and then subsequently was and the wider
41:16failings in our political system
41:19during the expenses scandal people were
41:21listening people were hungry for change
41:23when 2010 s coalition talks came along
41:27the Liberal Democrats were reminded
41:29noisily of their long-held ambition for
41:31electoral reform we took over Trafalgar
41:35Square we marched down to Smith square
41:37where the coalition negotiations were
41:39going on there was a real energy there
41:45was a real sense of this is a moment
41:48that we can make change happen that you
41:50don't get very often the trouble was
41:54they wanted PR proportional
41:57representation what they got was a
41:59referendum on AV the alternative vote a
42:05system Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg had
42:08already described as a miserable little
42:10compromise still baby steps
42:15working entirely fair those taxpayers
42:17paid for your ludicrous expenses a new
42:20mansion for your ducks oh you moved Oh
42:22Paul Matthew Elliott Rand the no to a V
42:29campaign a canny strategist he managed
42:32to turn what could have felt like a
42:33People's Movement for change into the
42:35exact opposite if you have a sore
42:37campaign of the people versus of
42:39politicians if you got the politicians
42:41leading it and running it it doesn't
42:43really get traction in the same way so
42:45they saw Nick Clegg taking the lead he
42:48described a V as being a miserable
42:51little compromise back in the general
42:53election of course he'd done his u-turn
42:56on tuition fees and lost a lot of trust
42:58in the people trust on the people at
42:59that point
43:00so really the campaign collapsed and it
43:03was the in a sense the no campaign the
43:05innocence of people's campaign that won
43:06on that one on the night turnout was low
43:13and change didn't happen
43:15Britain elected to keep its old system
43:17by two to one the inability to link
43:22public frustration with MPs expenses
43:25with a political system which is as
43:28clapped-out as ours is was then and
43:31remains a kind of fail and of course
43:33there you have the great irony that some
43:35of the people who were most ardent in
43:37shining a spotlight on the MPs expensive
43:40scandals the Daily Telegraph and others
43:42but also the most ardent in in stopping
43:44any change to the political system and
43:46and and to this day we haven't broken
43:49that stranglehold there had been one
43:53winning strategy in particular that
43:55Matthew Elliot would later use again as
43:57chief executive of vote leave in the
44:002016 EU referendum with austerity still
44:04biting in the wake of the financial
44:05crisis he made the no to AV campaign all
44:08about money we came up with a vey simple
44:11idea of talking about how you're
44:14changing the electoral system would cost
44:16250 million million this money will be
44:19better spent on the NHS and of course
44:21who was that idea that was the genesis
44:23for the leave campaign when they talked
44:26sending 350 million pounds a week to the
44:29EU and how that best spent on the NHS so
44:32these messages you know work well of
44:38course that 350 million pounds figure
44:42has a few trust issues of its own which
44:45brings us back to the many debates about
44:47well you know well we wanted to leave it
44:51was a binding decision we're asked to
44:54make a decision honestly we all voted a
44:56honish decision went forward and we've
44:59been lied to ever since and so when I
45:01say how do you how do you regard them
45:03David regarding my discipline to mine
45:07out there into leading Britain's
45:15conversation with Nick Ferrari at
45:17breakfast back to more of your reactions
45:19as where the Conservative government
45:20finds itself and of course talk radio
45:22station LBC prides itself in taking the
45:25pulse of the country's conversation they
45:27let us drop in on their breakfast show
45:29to see if the expensive scandal still
45:32resonates and to talk trust in general
45:35history you know we should to treat them
45:38you know almost disarmed Wayne
45:39they've become be trusted with their
45:41expenses and how can we trust them to
45:43run the country what do you recall about
45:45the expenses scandal ten years ago do
45:47you remember it yes I do I was horrified
45:51ed says I'd rather trust of estate
45:54agents and politicians goodness me next
45:55thing they be saying rather trust
45:57journalists
45:58host Nick Ferrari remembers that febrile
46:01time a decade ago what is your sense of
46:04the impact if any that expenses and that
46:08scandal had on trust and where we are
46:10today I think the fury has been latent
46:12and what we've seen was brexit is that
46:14it's it's real wakened it so many people
46:16feel betrayed they they feel betrayed
46:18because they think the whole referendum
46:20was a con it wasn't a fair fight one
46:22side fiddled their expenses if you will
46:24and it wasn't nobody actually knew what
46:26they were voting for and the other is
46:28saying look we you voted us we told you
46:29to do something just get on do with it
46:31get on and do it so that that is why
46:32it's still present
46:37[Applause]
46:39[Music]
46:47do you think this is a crisis point for
46:49democracy or do you think people always
46:51say that and then go back no I think
46:53this is the biggest crisis point I've
46:55ever seen in my professional career it's
46:57such a great interview for me it's great
47:00the referendum was a simple choice on
47:02membership of the EU but for some it
47:05became about so much is just a very it's
47:20a rude instrument I mean it's it's it's
47:22it was it's such a binary vote that is
47:25it's it's doing so much heavy lifting
47:28for so many things that were never given
47:30voice to you know even with MP's
47:33expenses there was no way for the public
47:34to really show their anger adequately
47:37about that I almost feel like there's
47:40all this resentment that's been building
47:42about so many things and there's been no
47:44outlet for people to voice their
47:47dissatisfaction and then there was this
47:49tiny you know it's like a pressure
47:52cooker and there's one hole and that's
47:54what this referendum is and like it all
47:56blasts out of it so what's the answer
48:04for MPs hearing those voices of
48:07dissatisfaction for some it's about
48:09making politics more local
48:17dan Jarvis was a major in the British
48:19Army once talked off as a future Labour
48:22leader
48:22the last year he became the first ever
48:24mayor of the Sheffield city region for
48:28too long our country has been far too
48:30focused on London and on the South East
48:32of England decisions have been taken in
48:34Whitehall and in Westminster with very
48:37little understanding of the impact that
48:38they would have on communities like the
48:40ones here in South Yorkshire
48:42he's also the MP for Barnsley central to
48:47jobs but he only draws one salary and
48:49there's a particular reason why that
48:52resonates the Member of Parliament there
48:58before him was Eric Illsley who became
49:01the first sitting MP to be convicted of
49:03a criminal offence as a result of the
49:05expenses scandal it was his fraudulent
49:09claims to the tune of 14 thousand pounds
49:11that sent him to prison
49:17so rebuilding trust in this part of the
49:20country was always going to be an uphill
49:22struggle the expensive scandal I think
49:25provided a real opportunity for people
49:28to vent their frustration and their
49:30anger at the political system in which
49:32they didn't feel that they were being
49:33properly represented and I think that we
49:35live today with the that fallout from
49:38that kind of particular moment what do
49:41you feel when you're down in in
49:43Parliament in that other life I think
49:46Parliament consists of some brilliant
49:48people there are some outstanding
49:49members of parliament who work
49:51incredibly hard but I do sometimes fear
49:54how it project to the outside world
50:00[Applause]
50:05that's not to say that we don't do some
50:08things very well in Parliament but I do
50:09think that the place has a has a feel
50:11that is more akin to the previous
50:13century than the current one and that
50:16matters because it doesn't help us
50:18rebuilding the faith and trust in the
50:20people that were there to represent many
50:22of whom will be practically pretty
50:23disillusioned with the performance of
50:25Parliament and politics in recent time
50:31[Applause]
50:34perhaps that disillusion stems from a
50:37more fundamental question do we really
50:39understand the job of the MP any more
50:43once in years past your MP was your
50:46representative there to exercise their
50:49own judgment on your behalf but now what
50:55has happened and I I think the expenses
50:57scandal helped to accelerate this has
51:01been a gradual breakdown in our
51:03understanding of the idea of
51:05representative democracy we don't want
51:10to speak through our members of
51:11parliament we can't trust our members of
51:13parliament our own voice must be
51:15directly represented in government we do
51:19have sometimes quite sort of
51:21contradictory expectations of
51:22politicians we want them to be States
51:24women and States men but at the same
51:26time to act as sort of local councillors
51:28in their own local constituents we want
51:30them to have every single fact at their
51:31fingertips and every single moment
51:33twenty-four hours a day and yet at the
51:35same time we want them to be able to see
51:36the wood for the trees and the bigger
51:38bigger picture we always say this to
51:39politicians I heard it constantly why
51:41don't you compromise it's so ridiculous
51:43you don't work with other parties and
51:44then the moment you work with other
51:45parties which involves compromise
51:47suddenly the compromises that you think
51:50might be reasonable are are shouted down
51:52as a betrayal
51:56increasingly it seems the ultimate taboo
51:58in our 21st century politics is to
52:01contradict the voting public
52:03I used to stack shelves at Tescos and I
52:07learned when I was 15 the customer is
52:08always right
52:10and I think in politics is exactly the
52:13same you can you can try to mount an
52:18argument an argument that the public is
52:21wrong but that's very difficult and very
52:24foolhardy this is what the lack of trust
52:29in a whole political system sounds like
52:32the social contract broken and we call
52:42upon every principled and peaceful
52:44citizen to rise with us
52:47extinction rebellion described
52:49themselves as nonviolent lawbreakers
52:52they follow in the mold of centuries of
52:53protest before them seeking disruption
52:55and visibility to their minds
53:04politicians fiddle while the planet
53:06burns
53:09I think our political system is totally
53:11separated from ordinary people none of
53:14them have a clue what's going on in
53:15normal people's lives not really we find
53:19Claire at a demo in East London the
53:23atmosphere may be carnival but the
53:25message is uncompromising I think this
53:28country is very aware that they're
53:29looking and now a political system that
53:31is absolutely incapable of making any
53:35decisions meeting any resolution on any
53:38matter and brexit is the fire is
53:40something which is like exemplified this
53:42for people in the most spectacular way
53:46this is politics at its most rule those
53:50who dance in the street those who
53:55marched through the mud it may be small
53:58in scale but it's noisy angry
54:00impassioned either way can make
54:02Westminster look a little well indoors
54:05left behind a provocation to those
54:09inside the chamber Parliament's problems
54:19are now the country's problems it is
54:21clear that the house does not support
54:23this deal but tonight's vote tells us
54:26nothing about what it does support the
54:29Prime Minister's crushing defeats have
54:31become routine compromise has evaded the
54:34Commons a perfect political paralysis so
54:38the message today to Teresa may is that
54:41she has lost her moral and political
54:43authority the party system is showing
54:46signs of strain traditional loyalties
54:49have broken down a small group of
54:51independent MPs have even left their
54:54political homes
54:55if brexit was a pained carry on call for
54:57change then we hear it our parties have
55:02been unable to grasp the magnitude of
55:04the challenge and have no plan to
55:06nor heal the divisions this neverforget
55:15is not normal but it may well be here to
55:19stay to lay the blame at the feet of
55:22that scandal a decade ago is of course
55:25far too simple but to see the part it
55:29played in the roots of public distrust
55:31may help us understand how we got to
55:34where we are today I think it could well
55:36have had an effect on happy Road because
55:38when you have cabinet ministers the
55:41Prime Minister the Chancellor of the
55:42Exchequer other people saying to you in
55:45their judgement brexit is not in the
55:48national interest
55:49I believe that Britain will be safer
55:52stronger and better off in a reformed
55:56European Union people didn't trust their
55:58judgement so it has pushed us further
56:00towards a kind of direct democracy
56:02referendum is that almost the logical
56:04consequence of that lack of trust in MPs
56:07and politicians and their judgement
56:09we're in a transitional moment for
56:11democracy like we're going from the
56:13representational style of democracy that
56:15was dreamed up by Victorian gentlemen
56:17that's why women wanted suffrage you
56:19know because you know it used to be said
56:21like well a man can represent your
56:22interests and it's like well actually
56:23they can't because they don't know my
56:25experience and so for too many people
56:27they look at these representatives and
56:29they just see them as not representative
56:32yes the expenses they will have will
56:34have rot the public's trust in politics
56:37but you know part of the problem with
56:41modern politics is that unless you have
56:44big leadership with big visions for the
56:47country you end up in the end you you
56:50suck all of politics into a vortex of
56:52you know who's a good and who's a bad
56:55person which is a stupid argument have
56:57in politics you should be arguing about
56:59the big questions that decide the future
57:01of the country
57:04if the expansion scandal did start to
57:07undermine people's faith in a political
57:11elite thinking they had all the answers
57:14if it undermine that and that led all
57:17fed their feeling that the European
57:20Union was a kind of bureaucratic racket
57:22at their expense and led to the
57:25referendum result then it was all
57:26worthwhile because I certainly always
57:29believed that we were better governing
57:31ourselves if so my own loss of seat was
57:34not in vain
57:36[Music]
57:41I do think we have a problem in the
57:43House of Commons now with MPs not having
57:47the self-respect not not having almost
57:50the arrogance that MPs used to have and
57:52constantly worrying about what people
57:55are saying about them in the social
57:56media how what they say is going to look
57:58there's a sort of Craven as snow amongst
58:01MPs and I think it partly stems from
58:04that terrific kicking but they got all
58:06those years ago from which they haven't
58:08entirely recovered right now
58:13parliamentarians are fixing their
58:15building with little idea how to fix
58:17their system in a few years time the
58:20renovation work will be finished if all
58:22goes well you won't notice any change it
58:25will carry the same 19th century look
58:27inside and out
58:28the bigger question perhaps is that what
58:32we really want who's the most powerful
58:37man you've never heard of to find out
58:39download the BBC sounds out to listen to
58:41the podcast seriously the puppetmaster
58:44mass of us have heard of Peter Sutcliffe
58:47and tomorrow evening on BBC four at 9:00
58:50a new three-part documentary the
58:52Yorkshire Ripper files a very British
58:54crime story begins as you'll see in a
58:57moment
58:58[Music]

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of BBC Documentary - Expenses: The Scandal That Changed Britain by Ryan Lam, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 8,643 words across 1,291 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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