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Baylor ISR - Rodney Stark- End of Religion? (May 5, 2015) — Transcript

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0:09so I'm going to introduce the first
0:10person who is the co-director of ISR
0:13Rodney Stark he and I came to Baylor
0:15about the same time almost 11 years ago
0:18and uh Rodney really needs no
0:21introduction uh but he's become a dear
0:23friend and colleague you can see a
0:25number of his books outside on display
0:27as well as other uh books by is our
0:30faculty um so Rod uh come give us the
0:34first talk of our
0:48conference oh my I've been sitting here
0:51with my back to you and I didn't notice
0:53how many of you came
0:57in you're all aware that at least once a
1:00month sometimes more often there'll be a
1:03big story in the national press always
1:07the same story usually by the same
1:11suspects having to do with the fact that
1:14religion is
1:16doomed last week Daniel Dennett the sage
1:21of tuft
1:23University was uh quoted at Great length
1:26in the Wall Street Journal about the
1:28fact that it's all over we finally won
1:31according to
1:32dennet religion is dead and if it looks
1:35like it's still healthy that's because
1:38that's a dying
1:42spasm well whatever else that may be
1:45it's not news people have been
1:47predicting the end of religion for more
1:50than three
1:51centuries and true to form the very
1:55first person who did it was an Anglican
1:58clergyman writing in
2:021710 Thomas Wilston predicted that all
2:05traces of religion would be
2:08gone by
2:111900 voler thought he was pessimistic
2:15and in a letter to Frederick the great
2:17voler said now it'll all be gone and
2:22over by
2:271810 subsequently
2:30these sorts of people got a little
2:33circumspect and now they will only say
2:37soon they won't say
2:42when that's all
2:45right
2:47because somehow they still get all the
2:50Press
2:52um Peter Burger the sage of Boston
2:56University and once a visitor to bayor
3:01told the New York Times in
3:031968 that the 21st cent in the 21st
3:08century religious Believers are likely
3:10to be found only in small sects huddled
3:15together to resist the worldwide secular
3:19culture the predicament of the believer
3:22is increasingly like that of a Tibetan
3:26astrologer on a prolonged visit to an
3:29American
3:30University now the subsequent
3:32lionization of the do llama on American
3:36campuses suggests that there's another
3:38interpretation possible here but the
3:41fact
3:44is that it's the 21st
3:48century and it still hasn't
3:52happened
3:55moreover the facts are that the world is
3:58probably much more religious than it was
4:01a century ago it may in fact be more
4:04religious than it ever
4:07was never before has organized religion
4:12enrolled such a huge proportion of the
4:15world's
4:17population worldwide
4:2081% of the people belong to one of the
4:24major organized
4:28faiths
4:31all of the great world religions are
4:34growing with the possible exception of
4:38Buddhism and contrary to uninformed
4:41accounts Christianity is growing far
4:45faster than either Islam or
4:49Hinduism and regardless of their
4:52religion 74% of the world's people say
4:57religion is an important part of their
4:58daily lives
5:0150% say they have attended a worship
5:04service in the past 7
5:08Days in very few Nations do more than
5:135% claim to be
5:15atheists and only in China Vietnam and
5:18South Korea do they exceed
5:2220% furthermore in every nook and
5:26cranny left by organized religions
5:30all manner
5:32of unchurched
5:35spirituality and
5:37mysticisms are
5:41booming there are more occult
5:44practitioners in Russia than there are
5:46medical
5:47doctors 38% of the French believe in
5:51astrology 35% of the Swiss agree some
5:56fortune tellers really can foresee the
5:59future
6:00future and nearly everyone in
6:03Japan takes a careful action to have
6:07their new car blessed by a Shinto
6:12priest probably can't get insurance if
6:15you
6:16don't
6:19true now where do these numbers come
6:22from I mean you're sitting out to say
6:24how does he know this because of a
6:27wonderful thing called the gallop world
6:29World
6:31polls they started in
6:352005 and by now they're doing an annual
6:38National survey in every one of 163
6:44Nations which add up to 98% of the
6:47world's
6:48population and by collapsing years you
6:52can get huge case bases 10 15,000 in
6:57various countries which means that the
6:59statistics are extremely stable and
7:02probably very
7:05accurate now I have a book coming
7:09out uh in the fall in which I use these
7:14data to cover the world here I'm going
7:16to only talk about a few places um I'm
7:20certainly not going to talk about Europe
7:22because my colleague Philip Jenkins is
7:24going to do that I'm going to leave
7:25America alone because Byron is going to
7:28end the program with the United
7:31States but let's begin with Latin
7:34America for centuries Latin America was
7:38alleged to be a Roman Catholic
7:42continent the Catholic Almanac of
7:461949 reported that the percent
7:50Catholic in Argentina was
7:5599.2% that it was 98% in Bolivia
8:00that it was
8:0299.8% in
8:04Chile and it made similar claims for the
8:07other Latin Nations the truth is that no
8:10more than 20 and usually closer to 10%
8:13of the people in any Latin American
8:15Nation ever went to
8:17church so few men entered the
8:21seminaries that all across the
8:24continent most of the priests had always
8:28been imported
8:30from elsewhere in the
8:32world then came Protestant
8:35competition during the second half of
8:38the 20th
8:39century it finally became legal for
8:42Protestants to exist in Latin America
8:45and they started converting tens of
8:47millions of
8:50people now the Catholic Church of course
8:53had to respond and their first
8:57response was something call Liberation
9:00theology and the Assumption was that
9:03people were becoming Protestants because
9:05they were poor and deprived and
9:07Powerless so let's put some Marxism
9:10together with some Catholicism and let's
9:12go out and get them all to join base
9:14communities and we'll get rid of these
9:17Protestants and despite the fact that
9:19the current pope seems to think that's
9:21the way to go and that's the way he went
9:24in Argentina it was a thunderous
9:27flop nobody
9:32joined but then came some wiser
9:37heads something
9:41called the Catholic Charismatic renewal
9:48mement it meant the P met the
9:51Pentecostals head on with the same kind
9:54of intense religion because people were
9:55not converting because they were poor
9:57they were converting for religion the
9:59rich were as likely as the poor to
10:01become Protestants and you know what the
10:04Catholic Charismatic religious movement
10:07has greatly
10:09slowed the progress of protestantism in
10:12Latin
10:14America how did it do it it did it by
10:16filling the
10:18churches it's amazing but in seven of
10:21the 18 major Latin American nations
10:25weekly Mass attendance today is above
10:2960% a
10:32week in six others it's above 50% a week
10:37keep in mind that it's 31% in Spain and
10:4029 in Canada and we're talking about
10:43really full
10:45churches uh something hadn't been seen
10:49before in 1960 there were 4,000 men in
10:53Catholic seminaries in Latin America
10:55today there are well over
10:5820,000 uh religion worked the more the
11:02more important point is that what wasn't
11:04a Catholic continent is now very much a
11:08Christian
11:10continent but it's nothing compared to
11:12South subsaharan
11:14Africa there
11:16are more Christians in subsaharan Africa
11:21than there are anywhere else in the
11:24world a third of the world's more than
11:28two billion Christians are there and
11:30across my
11:32colleague has written about this a great
11:35length about Christianity in the global
11:37South and it's
11:41true church
11:43attendance is extraordinary in
11:45subsaharan Africa uh the Latin American
11:49attendance looks bad if you start
11:51looking at subsaharan Africa where
11:52people tend to go at levels of 80 and
11:5690% a week to to Long church
12:05services many of these people belong to
12:09African denominations I mean one started
12:12by Africans but many also are Roman
12:15Catholics and the Gallup WHL pole
12:17statistics on the number of Catholics in
12:19the various African nations is way way
12:22above what the Catholic Almanac
12:25claims so I got a hold of some people in
12:28the Vatican and then asked them about it
12:30they were delighted to hear the news but
12:32they didn't know why and they finally
12:34concluded that the priests are so busy
12:37with baptisms and confessions that they
12:39don't bother to count and therefore the
12:42numbers are 20 years old and I guess
12:44that's probably what's going
12:47on we could of
12:51course me it's it's just it's just
12:55amazing what's going on
12:58there
13:07the fact now I'd like to switch
13:11slightly and talk
13:14about the great Muslim
13:18rival as recently as the
13:221960s Western experts including the
13:26CIA assumed Muslims were rapidly
13:29becoming secularized and they began
13:31teaching and Reporting all of this at a
13:34very time in which a great renewal was
13:36going on in Islam that they didn't
13:39bother to look
13:42at during the 1950s about 100,000
13:45pilgrims a year went to
13:48Mecca by the mid 1970s that number had
13:52risen to a million a year in
13:552012 it topped 3 million it could
13:59probably be as high as 10 or 15 million
14:02but the Saudis won't give them more
14:03visas than that because it's so
14:06difficult to provide food and water and
14:08shelter in the middle of the desert so 3
14:11million is all they're letting come
14:14in even
14:21so there are very few longitudinal data
14:25available on belief in Islam but there
14:27are for turkey
14:29but only for the last 20 years even so
14:33you find enormous increases in things
14:35like mosque
14:37attendants um the proportion who believe
14:40in Hell went from 83 to
14:4499 83 is awfully high but 99 means
14:47everybody 99 means something else it
14:50means that this isn't all about a bunch
14:52of impoverished folks running around in
14:55the Arab streets
14:57socalled the educated ated are in fact
15:00slightly more religious in the Muslim
15:03nations than the least educated it turns
15:06out that by the way we'll find that's
15:08true in many other parts of the world
15:10contrary to most
15:14sociologists the CIA of course has now
15:17been recently was I it was yesterday the
15:21former deputy director of the CIA
15:23confessed that made a terrible mistake
15:25about the Arab
15:27Spring that they when the governments of
15:30Egypt and Libya and Yen and what not
15:32were overthrown they thought that this
15:34was going to be a great move towards
15:40secularization they didn't look at any
15:42of the
15:43polls I don't know why but they don't
15:46seem to look at polls but polls would
15:48have showed them that the people in
15:52Egypt were vastly vastly more
15:55Orthodox or extreme or whatever you want
15:58to call it than was the
16:00government and that in fact if you had
16:03an elect free election which they did
16:05have they'd elect a Muslim brother which
16:08they
16:09did it's it's it's amazing but uh um the
16:15one poll item that the government US
16:18Government made a lot of is after 911
16:21that the mass majority of people in the
16:23Muslim nations did not support
16:26it but what they failed to report report
16:30is the only people who supported it were
16:32those who thought Arabs had done it the
16:34rest of the people thought George Bush
16:36did it and of course they didn't support
16:38it so I mean you've got to be careful
16:41with what you're looking at in any event
16:45one thing I think before I move on I'd
16:47like to remind you is that whatever
16:50terrorism is involved it's mostly
16:52brother killing brother I have a book in
16:56which we we did a lot of calculations
16:58look about 70% of everyone who's killed
17:02by a Muslim terrorist is another Muslim
17:05perhaps a terrorist as well but uh it's
17:08at least somebody of a different form of
17:11Muslim faith now let's move to
17:16India when India became an independent
17:19country
17:221947 all of its political leaders have
17:25been educated in Great Britain and
17:27everybody thought consequently the
17:29secularization was coming with
17:31modernization and Neu the first
17:33president expected Hinduism to disappear
17:36within 40 or 50 years and of course
17:39that's not what happened U as India has
17:44modernized there's been a huge Muslim
17:48Revival uh India is much more religious
17:51now than it was 100 years ago you can
17:54measure it in all kinds of ways in terms
17:57of of pilgrims was going to the
17:59religious sites uh in 1986 1.3 people
18:05visited million people visited the Davi
18:09Shrine above cashmir last year a top 10
18:13million uh a
18:15cliche among Indian
18:18journalists is the gods are
18:21back a national survey in 2007 found
18:25that a third of Indians said they were
18:27more religious than they had been 5
18:28years years ago and only 3% said they
18:30were less
18:32religious 67% of Indians say they've
18:36attended a religious service in the past
18:38week 85% say religion is important in
18:41their daily lives and these numbers go
18:44up if you limit it only to Hindus in
18:48India and of course the more educated
18:52the more
18:55religious and then there's
18:57China
19:01uh odd little
19:04Story American and Western
19:08intellectuals Long believed that China
19:11was immune to religion 1934 Edgar snow
19:15equipped that in China opium is the
19:18religion of the people well American
19:22academics and all throughout Europe
19:26giggled
19:27agreed
19:29and decided that the several million
19:31Chinese who were attending Mission
19:33churches were rice Christians that they
19:36went there for the benefits and if the
19:38benefits stopped they'd go away and of
19:40course then came the Chinese Communist
19:44taking power in
19:461949 um
19:491966 came the cultural revolution and
19:53religion was declared
19:55illegal and the red guards
19:59burned or tore down or converted into
20:01warehouses all of the churches all of
20:04the pagodas all of the shrines anything
20:07religious that they could
20:14find and again the intellectuals looked
20:17around and said there there is the
20:19post-religious world we can see it and
20:22that turned out to be the Opium of
20:24Western intellectuals because the second
20:26the heat came off religion came
20:29bringing back tens of thousands of
20:32temples have been
20:34rebuilt and as for the rice
20:37Christians they went underground and
20:40when the heat came off they not only
20:42were still
20:44Christians there were three times as
20:46many of them as there had been before in
20:49other words back in the days when
20:52Christians were being shot people were
20:54joining the church in large
20:57numbers and now with the ha off of
21:00course they've been joining in even
21:02larger
21:04numbers nobody has been really sure as
21:08to what those numbers are some people
21:10say 20 million some people say 200
21:14million both numbers are
21:18silly unfortunately Gallup doesn't
21:20provide any data on religion in China
21:22because no foreign firms can ask
21:26questions about politics or religion
21:29in China but a big Chinese firm did so
21:33in 2007 huge survey 7,000
21:37respondents and by hooker crook we
21:41managed to get our hands on it uh we've
21:44got it in English um the
21:47calculations uh have been corrected for
21:50the fact that people under I mean it's
21:53still a little bit tricky to be a
21:55Christian in China and uh and so some
21:58people who are Christians wouldn't tell
22:00a strange uh survey administrator that
22:04that they were Christians but we found
22:05ways to correct for that and it looks
22:09like that
22:13about one
22:17about 70 million there's a strange thing
22:21here twice as many Chinese say they
22:25believe in Jesus as say that they're
22:27Christians and that's because the
22:29Chinese are all confused about what it
22:31means to belong to organizations and all
22:34sorts of other things but the best the
22:37the best conclusion is that there about
22:3970 or about were about 73 million
22:41Christians in China in
22:462007 in various ways I managed to
22:48calculate that there were
22:51probably about uh 10 million Christians
22:54in China in
22:561980 and you do the calculation that's a
22:59rate of growth of about 7% a
23:04year if that rate were to hold for
23:07another 15
23:08years you'd have 295 million Chinese
23:13Christians making China the largest the
23:16nation with the largest Christian
23:17population by the way even in 2007 there
23:21were more Chinese Christians and they
23:22were members of the Communist
23:25Party not only that but while it's
23:27illegal for members of the Communist
23:30Party to have a religion there are
23:33plenty of Christians in the Communist
23:35Party how do we know well out in the
23:38Villages you can't keep secrets and the
23:41local communist leader in the village
23:44the people you know people know he's a
23:46Christian so consequently they don't
23:48make any secret of it and there are
23:49communist leaders in The Villages that
23:51have crosses on the wall of the living
23:53room and we take that as pretty firm
23:56evidence that they've converted
24:01um I think that that's
24:05enough but the idea is that the world is
24:09really a very very religious place um I
24:14think this might be a good time to take
24:15a few questions and we don't have quite
24:19as much time but uh five minutes is all
24:23we'll
24:24do
24:26anybody that's all right
24:29about the latest Pew report the latest
24:32Pew report that says that you know the
24:34next Whatever It Is 40 50 years Islam
24:37will outpace Christianity and its growth
24:39around the
24:41world I'm sorry I really couldn't I I
24:44couldn't hear it right I said the the
24:46latest Pew report the pew pew
24:51um no I won't say that I won't say Pew
24:56but Pew is very
24:58money they uh they've got a lot of money
25:01they do some very good
25:03research they don't seem to know what it
25:07means to
25:09say I have no
25:12religion in the United States when
25:15people say that it means that they've
25:17got no denominational pres preference
25:21because almost all the people who say
25:22they I mean there about 4% of the
25:24American public who says they're they're
25:27atheist the rest these people who say
25:29they have no religion
25:32pray believe in angels all sorts of
25:35things like this and you say well these
25:37aren't irreligious people what are they
25:38telling us and what it appears to be is
25:41that their parents would have said if
25:44you asked them the denomination they'd
25:46have said I'm a
25:48Lutheran but I don't
25:50go and what these people are saying well
25:53we're not really lutherans or we don't
25:55really have a preference if you ask them
25:57if they were Christians most of them
25:59would say yes so it's a very confused
26:01thing in China when people say they have
26:04no
26:05religion um it's hard to know what they
26:08mean because most of the people who have
26:09been a Buddhist temple in the last week
26:12say they have no religion uh 76% of the
26:16Chinese say they have no religion and of
26:19them 80% of that
26:2276% have been uh in a folk temple in the
26:25last two
26:26weeks uh but they don't regard that they
26:29have a very special definition of the
26:32word
26:33religion uh that most things don't I
26:35mean most Buddhists in China will say
26:38they have no religion they'll tell you
26:39they're a Buddhist but they have no
26:40religion uh it's very complicated stuff
26:43and I seen none of that subtly in the
26:46Pew
26:51report Islam
26:54will oh no I'm sorry
27:00no they're making the Assumption you
27:03know that people in the non-western
27:04world have got high fertility rates
27:06without going and looking at their
27:08fertility rates uh Iran's fertility rate
27:12is way below replacement level for
27:14example uh many many Arab countries
27:18their fertility is falling like very
27:21rapidly um I I I could name I think I
27:25recently saw a list of five that were
27:27below replacement and the rest streaking
27:30there no I don't see that at all um as a
27:34matter of fact
27:36fertility uh is so tricky that it may in
27:38fact rech christianize Europe because
27:42the Philip will probably bring this up
27:44but the Christians in Europe are the
27:46ones who are having the kids um you know
27:49there's
27:51a same American Judaism is is turning
27:55outra Orthodox because one kid per
27:59family doesn't equal 10 kids per family
28:02um it's all very
28:04tricky yes so actually somewhat related
28:07to that question uh when you start
28:09talking about statistics or quoting
28:11statistics it's to me any way it can get
28:13pretty confusing to understand so the
28:16question is how much of the growth is
28:19really seen as or can be accounted for
28:22just a growth in population so if the if
28:24the percentage stays the same and the
28:26population grows then the number grow
28:29sure sure sure the I've made tried to be
28:33very careful not to talk uh in terms of
28:37numbers except in the case of china
28:39because that's such shortterm kind of
28:41growth so going from say 60 million to
28:44290 million in 20 years uh you don't
28:47have to worry about uh about that but no
28:50that's the reason I've stuck with
28:52percentages increases because of course
28:55uh there's been population growth
28:57particularly in uh in subsaharan Africa
29:00uh but you know
29:03if population growth doesn't have any
29:06impact on the proportion of Christians
29:08if they're sitting there in excess of
29:1290% which they are and by the way of
29:14course the
29:16boundaries subsaharan Africa butts into
29:19North Africa you've got these terrible
29:22battles going on with bah Haram and
29:24Nigeria for example because uh uh of
29:28that
29:31conflict
29:35yes will result in a greater do you
29:40think those type of battles are having
29:41in nor Northern Africa will result in a
29:43a greater um depth of religion or more
29:48of a secularization of religion in that
29:50area to to get rid of the
29:54conflict I don't see anybody leaving
29:57either Islam or Christianity as a result
30:00of these
30:02fights
30:04um my impulse would say it might
30:06intensify the commitment on both sides
30:09uh it's it's it's hard to say but uh uh
30:14in general you know I mean you look
30:16around the United States and everybody
30:18says that religion is
30:22declining and as Byron will point out
30:26they've got everything on their side
30:27except the numbers you know you go to
30:30church on Sunday morning you don't find
30:32all those empty pews they're talking
30:34about or if you do you're going to the
30:36wrong
30:41Church you mentioned the brother the you
30:45mentioned the the increase of
30:49Islam assuming that there is a
30:51distinction between Islam and radical
30:54Islam is do any of the studies show an
30:57increase in in the rad radicalization of
31:00Islam that you see
31:05well that's a
31:07very difficult
31:10question if you look at pole data it's
31:15amazing
31:21how I don't know I'm grasping for a word
31:25extreme or whatever let's put it this
31:28way the
31:29overwhelming majorities in Nations like
31:33Egypt and
31:36Pakistan um
31:38Yemen overwhelmingly
31:41believe that
31:43anybody who Decon converts from Islam
31:46should be
31:48executed overwhelmingly they believe
31:51that anyone who blasphemes should be
31:55executed they overwhelmingly support
31:58killing your daughter if she winked at
32:00somebody so you know I don't know what
32:02you mean by extreme uh will they do
32:06anything he chances no uh and Leadership
32:09is is is a real issue as you notice uh
32:13when when when when the Arab Spring
32:16happened in Egypt we found out what muic
32:18had been sitting on successfully for 30
32:23years and now the Army took back and
32:26those guys are are Muslims too but
32:28they're they're they're not radical
32:29Muslims they're they're very uh uh
32:33peaceloving if you will I mean they
32:35really don't want attacks on Israel they
32:38really don't want
32:42uh to execute blasphemers and they don't
32:46but it's very this is very tricky stuff
32:49uh but we're not helped by people going
32:51around pretending that none of this has
32:53to do with Islam it be a little bit like
32:57pretending that that the people who who
32:59shot abortionists weren't Christians of
33:01course they were um you know it's it's
33:04it's
33:06it's it's very complicated and it's not
33:09helpful by being in
33:14denial thank you Professor for this
33:16wonderful talk this morning I'd like to
33:18ask the question though in the signs of
33:21religious revival are you equating
33:23religion then with superstitious re
33:26Revival as well and what would be your
33:30definition of the two
33:40terms I would say
33:44that
33:48mysticism or involves belief in the
33:52existence of Supernatural
33:55forces I think religion Takes One Step
33:58Beyond that and posits the existence of
34:02a conscious
34:04God that
34:06uh on the other hand if I'm sitting out
34:09here being being an aggressive atheist
34:14the fact that people have quit the
34:16Lutheran Church and are now
34:18spiritualists should not give me any
34:21comfort in the sense that it's still a
34:24supernatural world for these people uh
34:27the the very beliefs that they're
34:29against are still thriving in in
34:32spiritualism uh now that doesn't meet my
34:35religious taste and I'm very leery about
34:38the edge of of of what I would call
34:43supernaturalism that isn't religion but
34:45it is still supernaturalism and that's
34:48that's all no to me religion has to have
34:50a God and uh um I would even go so far
34:56as to say a conscious God because I
34:58don't know what you do with an
35:00unconscious God except it's it's a
35:03word
35:06um yes on that note uh maybe you could
35:10say something about the proportionate uh
35:13growth of minority religions or new
35:16religious movements in comparison to the
35:18mainstream world religions you've mostly
35:20been talking about or maybe also the uh
35:23growth in numbers of minority religions
35:26and new religious movements
35:28also well there are new religious
35:30movements constantly uh some of many of
35:34them
35:36u in subsaharan Africa it's it's
35:40estimated that there are
35:4310,000 christianities independent
35:46Christian movements that are uh locally
35:50uh
35:51formed
35:53um we certainly have all you know I mean
35:57we we got 1500 kinds of Protestants in
36:00the United States uh and then of course
36:03there are you know spiritualism is is is
36:06is a religion and and and it has a few
36:13churches the world is full of religious
36:16movements that's certainly
36:18true um Islam by the way we have a
36:22tendency to make Islam monolithic less
36:25so most recently but they have a
36:27tendency to make Christianity monolithic
36:30and in fact uh it's it's not so I years
36:33ago a a Muslim friend of
36:35mine educated me by saying I could take
36:39you to any Muslim village with four
36:42mosques and I could point out the
36:45Episcopalian mosque the Baptist mosque
36:48the Nazarene mosque and the Unitarian
36:52mosque uh and he said there's that much
36:55variety but you'd walk in there and say
36:58bunch of Muslims um and and he was quite
37:04right um on the reporting and statistics
37:08of Islam um on the reporting of
37:11statistics about Islam around the world
37:13do you think that's just oversight or do
37:15you think there's political motives um
37:18underlying racist motives anything like
37:20that to
37:22the what You' pointed out is false
37:24statistics coming out of various
37:31channels I don't hear as well as I did
37:35when I was your age and a bit of trouble
37:38yeah um so regarding the false stories
37:42about various sectors in Islam or the
37:46rise of Islam or things like that do you
37:48think that those are just oversights in
37:50media and statistics or do you think
37:53that there's some kind of motivation for
37:55that well there's obviously a lot of
37:58politics going on I mean the fact that
38:01what happened here at Fort Hood the
38:05government continues to call an instance
38:08of workplace
38:10violence having nothing to do with
38:13religion that's that's not
38:17ignorance it may be idiotic but it's not
38:21ignorance

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