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Battleclade: winning games through uninteractive slop (lovingly), JAKTP185 — Transcript

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0:19Hello friends and welcome to another
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0:50let us know what you think. Thanks for
0:51tuning in. Here's today's episode. We've
0:54got uh the champion of the Edmonton 2026
0:58Open. GW's first 11 round tournament in
1:01Canada. And uh surprise surprise,
1:03BattleClade were the winners. And uh
1:04Dave is out here. And right before we
1:07got put into this podcast a couple weeks
1:09ago, his friend lovingly titled our
1:12group chat uh BattleClade or lovingly
1:16titled it uninteractive slop. Um maybe
1:18as a nod to how the metag game can feel,
1:20you know, with Raveners and some of
1:22these other defensive teams. Or maybe
1:23it's just cuz Battleclan can kind of
1:25hang back and do whatever they want,
1:26right Dave?
1:27>> Yeah, it's a little bit of that. And I
1:29think I don't know, maybe I tend to
1:31gravitate towards teams that are a
1:33little uninteractive or can feel that
1:35way. So it could just be a jab at me as
1:37well. Who knows?
1:38>> So that's that's my question. Is is
1:41BattleClaid the uninteractive one?
1:45>> Yeah, that's definitely what he's
1:46getting at. Um, definitely sort of how I
1:49played them a bit at the tournament
1:50depending on the matchup was I would
1:53just set up a bunch of uninteractive
1:56options for myself and then force the
1:58opponent to deal with it and sort of
2:00sometimes they'd figure it out too late
2:02where they're like, I just have to run
2:04at you like, oh crap, I I can never get
2:06you if you just keep doing this loop and
2:08then it becomes pretty uninteractive
2:10from that point. And then once they run
2:11at you, you're like, melt a gun, melt a
2:13gun, hit and melt a gun.
2:15>> What if it's on turn four? It's too late
2:16for the for the charging to have
2:18mattered because you've already scored
2:19your points. And you know, looking over
2:20your scores, I'm seeing a lot of
2:22>> right around the tens. You know, 15
2:24points, 10 points, nine points, 13
2:25points, 14, 14, 11, 14, 16, 13, 14. So,
2:29not really highscoring games, but
2:31definitely wins, which is very
2:33important. You know, if you're going to
2:34these 11 round tournaments, there's only
2:36going to be one winner. You're allowed
2:38to take a couple losses, so you can kind
2:40of ride the line a little bit, right?
2:42Yeah, I definitely ended up riding the
2:44line and I think my scores looked like
2:46that probably because how I approached
2:47it. Um, I basically went into it feeling
2:50the most comfortable with retrieval. I
2:53think the team plays retrieval
2:55incredibly well just from the way that
2:57the techno can interact with it. Um, you
3:00have a ploy that allows you to do it
3:02from 4 in away. Um, and I really just
3:06went into it saying like I'm going to
3:08take as my primary every game. I'm going
3:10to take retrieval and for the most part
3:13unless it becomes like pretty free. I'm
3:15not even going to push for three on tac
3:18or six on tack, sorry. Um, so just
3:20getting two on the primary, get my two
3:22retrieval tokens and just hold those for
3:24dear life and then just play this
3:26incredibly KY and an interactive game
3:29for the most part if I could. Um, I did
3:32get lucky in that I didn't I wasn't out
3:34activated once in the whole tournament
3:36which really helped me just sort of like
3:37pull this off. Yeah, there's a Brood
3:39Brothers player floating around and I'm
3:40like, please fear God, I haven't played
3:42that team in so long. Don't pair me into
3:44that, man. And
3:45>> and Brood Brothers definitely one of the
3:47teams that can give Battleclaid a run
3:48for their money just because they have
3:50the extra activations. All of their guys
3:51are probably lethal enough to take you
3:53down with, you know, the field of pain.
3:55Like Battleclaid got a big blow up, you
3:56know, for anyone who doesn't know how
3:58Battleclaid work cuz honestly there's
3:59probably like 12 admech players in the
4:01whole world and on kill team there might
4:03be like seven of them at any given time.
4:05So, Battleclan got a handful of pretty
4:07major buffs. One of them being the
4:09pocket melta gun. So, they had like this
4:11old equipment that let you do a little
4:13bit of swapping. So, you could like
4:14change places for a couple operatives
4:16cuz you're like, "Oh, actually the melta
4:17gun's in the backline, but now it's just
4:20uh just pull out the other gun." So, any
4:22of your gun servtors can pull out any of
4:24the three weapons or any of your big
4:26servtors can pull out either the heavy
4:28bolter or the arc rifle for one shot.
4:30So, you just uh surprise them with a
4:31pocket melta gun, which you know, pretty
4:33good.
4:36Yeah, I end up the pocket melta. I think
4:39that's what we were dubbing it as well.
4:41Um I really just took that into marines.
4:43That was the main time that I took that.
4:45And when it's good, it's good because if
4:48you can set up some like, oh, this is a
4:50flamer. Surprise, it's a melta. And then
4:52like, oh, the melta's also over here.
4:54And you're like, two melta shots, the
4:55end of TP2 or something like that. And
4:57they're like, I don't like this.
4:59>> And the team actually has three Melta
5:01shots cuz they've got a secret. You
5:02know, the breacher is in the background.
5:04and he's also got a 2-in pierce two
5:06weapon. So, you got a couple different
5:08ways to punch through armor. Not really
5:10the most durable team, but one of the
5:11other big upgrades for this last change
5:13over was that they have the four up feel
5:15no pain where before it was on a five up
5:17and you know, really didn't really
5:18matter all that often. You know, now on
5:20a four up, generally on a turn that you
5:23need your guys to survive, they will
5:24survive a full extra dice roll
5:27generally, which is generally good
5:28enough for them to either get an injured
5:29shot or to hobble into the back line and
5:32go score some points, right?
5:34>> Yeah, exactly. And especially if you're
5:36taking the medic, they can just hobble
5:37back or network counteract the medic to
5:39go heal them and just do all the
5:40shenanigans that you can do. So, it was
5:43a huge huge survivability boost getting
5:45that four up cuz basically the plague
5:46marines one. I think it's exactly the
5:47same. It's damage of three or more. On a
5:49four up, you reduce it by one. Um, it's
5:53so so good. You basically play that most
5:55turns, I felt like, just as like a
5:57insurance policy to getting shot or
5:59getting hit in some sort of way. And
6:01then the last major change is now all of
6:04your network counteracts allow you to do
6:05a little bit of dash. Obviously, up
6:07until this exact moment, network
6:08counteract was this specific thing that
6:10you couldn't move. And now with the
6:12changeover, you can move. The change
6:14before this, I think in January, was
6:16where they removed the ability for your
6:18undersseer to shove people forward, and
6:21now the underser can also make people
6:23dash. So, you actually gained a lot of
6:24mobility in this most recent changeover.
6:26So, you're still kind of a slow team.
6:28You know, the servtor is all 5-in move,
6:30but the change over to network
6:32counteract giving you a 2-in dash and
6:34then the undersseer also giving you a
6:363-in push means that there is a really
6:39awkward alpha strike. Right. I heard,
6:41you know, I was at Edmonton as a to
6:44heard you mention it a couple times and,
6:46you know, being a player who's played a
6:47couple shooting teams, sometimes you
6:49brandish the 18-inch ruler of uh pretend
6:51like you're going to do this, but it's
6:53almost never worth it, right? Uh it is
6:58you more want to let your opponent know
7:00about it to almost just like scare them
7:02off because you don't want them close to
7:03you. So you're like just letting you
7:05know I could like dash dash this guy
7:07move dash him network counteract shoot
7:09you and they're like oh I could do that
7:11with a flamer and the hidden melta so
7:12it's like not even that important of a
7:13piece and they're like yeah you're right
7:15I don't want to go there you've
7:16convinced me and then like there was
7:18some teams or people that were just like
7:20yeah I'm still going to go here I'm like
7:22okay and if I activate you I'm like I'll
7:25go get my shot and then depending on how
7:28you can set it up with that dash dash uh
7:31I only took the equipment once but
7:33there's also equipment covert guises
7:34that lets you dash D3 guys in the strat
7:36phase of the first turn. So you can take
7:38that plus dash dash from the underser
7:40plus your move dash of eight. It gets
7:42you incredibly far. I don't think you
7:44really need the dash equipment if I'm
7:46being honest just because of how much
7:47movement the team has. But you can set
7:49it up with ceaseless from your leader
7:51and all of this type of stuff because
7:53you're out activating people. You can
7:54see where they're going to stage and
7:55then plan this out. Um and yeah, people
7:58were giving me shots. I think in
7:59Celestians I got I think I got two kills
8:02on the first turn one game and
8:05>> was that from like a stray torn
8:06>> shot team?
8:08>> Uh it was from a melta gun into seek
8:12light from the auto proxy and I told my
8:14opponent about all this stuff and they
8:15were fine with it. So it was they wanted
8:17to take the risk cuz they wanted to
8:19stage up aggressively and the dice gods
8:22were with me that time.
8:24And really that's probably one of the
8:26biggest limiting factors for battleclaid
8:27is like a structural team, right? You
8:29still hit on fours for all of your
8:31spooky guns for all of this discussion
8:33on like you get two separate 3-in
8:35dashes. You can network counteract an
8:37extra time to get an extra twoin shove
8:39and then your own activation you go 6 in
8:42forward with the twoin shot and suddenly
8:44you're all the way up there. But uh you
8:46just kind of go off like a wet fart
8:47sometimes, right?
8:49>> Yeah. And there's a there's a bunch of
8:50times that ends up happening to you,
8:52which I think is why outactivating is so
8:54important because if I'm going to take
8:56this risk at the end of like TP1 or end
8:58of TP2, at least I have I'm maybe I'm
9:01stacking some of the initiative cards to
9:02be like this is even if this goes bad,
9:05maybe I win init start of the next I win
9:07the next initiative and then I can take
9:08that shot again. So it's like I have two
9:10chances at this. Um the other thing is
9:13like most of the team does hit on fours
9:14but there's the flamers which are four
9:16four flamers hitting on two can get
9:18lethal five if you're on tomb world or
9:19if you're in a stronghold. Um and then
9:22you have the the breacher who hits on
9:24threes so you can still get that same
9:26twoin shot off and then it's a four five
9:28lethal five piercing two if you
9:30ceaseless on that like that thing's
9:32going to hurt anything that it hits. So
9:35um
9:35>> yeah I think that's kind of like my MVP
9:37operative on the team. The breacher just
9:39slices, dices, punches holes in walls,
9:41zaps guys with piercing two, and
9:43everyone once just chucks a crack
9:44grenade out the out the door.
9:47>> He does it all. He does everything.
9:50>> Were you playing BattleClade before the
9:53nerfs or the the buffs? You know, they
9:55cuz they've gone through quite the
9:57journey, you know, from when they came
9:58out last year. They were okayish, you
10:01know, going into the World Championships
10:03and then they soft nerfed
10:06>> in January, even though it was kind of
10:07like a side grade for a lot of pieces,
10:09but they lost maybe their easiest way to
10:12go reach out and touch someone at 15 in.
10:14Obviously now with the changeover in
10:16April, we've got the 18-in, you know,
10:18danger zone back. So, have you been
10:20playing them the whole time? Is this
10:22like a team that you have loved or, you
10:24know, how'd you get into it? Uh, so they
10:27came out in the box with Raveners, I
10:29think, and I was really into the
10:30Raveners when I got that box and I
10:32played them for a while. Um, then I just
10:35sort of got bored of playing Raveners
10:37and I was like, well, I have these
10:38models. I'm going to build them up. So,
10:39I actually played them quite a bit on
10:40release. Um, I really liked the team for
10:43a while. I didn't think they were in the
10:45best spot, but they were definitely fun.
10:46So, I got used to just like the gimmicks
10:48of the team, the play patterns of it,
10:50and just like how to deal with like the
10:52mental load of like all the network
10:54counteract options that are at your
10:55disposal. Put them down for a long time,
10:57especially after the nerfs. I didn't
10:58touch them for a while. I played like
11:00cults most of last year and the start of
11:02this year, I had like a big long vests
11:03phase. Um, and then yeah, as soon as
11:06these buffs came around, I was like,
11:08"All right, let's give them a go again.
11:10They look sick."
11:12>> And, you know, bringing them to
11:13Edmonton, that's an 11 round tournament.
11:15Obviously, battleclade not the easiest.
11:17You mentioned that they have a couple
11:18ores. They have a couple tricks. You
11:20know, there's a couple things you have
11:21to take care to pay attention to. 6-in
11:23bubbles, visibility for your leader cuz
11:25your leader has the omni scanner ability
11:27that gives you ceaseless for all of your
11:29friendly operatives as long as you can
11:30see them. So, you're thinking about a
11:31lot of different things. There's
11:32visibility operatives, there's control
11:34range operatives for like the medic, and
11:36then there's 6-in bubbles around your
11:38undersseer and your auto proxy. So,
11:40there's a lot of stuff going on with
11:43them. You mentioned that you played them
11:44before, but going into this major
11:46tournament, were there any things in
11:48practice that you thought were going to
11:50be extra important that maybe didn't
11:51really pan out over the course of the
11:52Edmonton tournament, or did most of
11:55those tricks basically matter?
11:58>> Uh, I only had about four reps on like
12:01the current iteration of the team before
12:03Edmonton. So, I want to say like I
12:06didn't feel super comfortable on them
12:08until midway through Edmonton, as weird
12:10as that sounds. I was figuring out a lot
12:12of the stuff sort of as I was going. Um,
12:16as far as like the auras and that type
12:18of stuff. Once you sort of just get used
12:21to like I'm splitting up my underser and
12:22my auto proxy and those are the two
12:24six-in oras and the the underser is
12:25relaying through the auto proxy. You
12:27sort of just get a handle on that. The
12:29weird like medic bubble chain that you
12:30can do where it's like medic into a gun
12:32servtor into your leader or something
12:34like that. Once you sort of get a handle
12:36on those type of staging requirements,
12:39it's not that bad. like when you need to
12:41do it, you sort of know how to do it.
12:43And then same thing with the network
12:45counteract stuff. Uh initially it's just
12:48such a mental hurdle because like I
12:50could do this, I could do this. Oh, what
12:51about this guy? This guy could do that.
12:52And it's it's almost overwhelming. Uh a
12:56lot of what I ended up doing with my
12:57network counteracts was fixing my own
13:00mistakes. And maybe that sounds crazy,
13:02but it's like because I outated people
13:05the whole tournament, someone would like
13:07set up a charge and I'm like, I don't
13:08want to be charged there. Let's go make
13:10the underser dash him away. You know,
13:12can no longer charge him. Let's network
13:13counteract dash him this way. Let's
13:15network counteract close a door. And
13:18these type of things where it's it's
13:20less like I'm trying to set up big plays
13:23for myself and more just trying to deny
13:24my opponent opportunities and just being
13:26able to read the board and react to what
13:28people were doing was just like a huge
13:31help because there's not a lot of teams
13:33that can do that. Um like some of the
13:36marine teams that can APL counteract and
13:37do stuff like that. You can get away
13:38with some of that type of stuff, but it
13:41just gave me a lot of control, I would
13:43say, over the board and like how I
13:45wanted the game to unfold. And that's
13:46maybe where some of the uninteractive
13:48stuff came from because someone would
13:49set something up and I was able to deny
13:51that just with these network counteracts
13:53and all the movement shenanigans.
13:57>> Yeah. So, it's kind of like the just the
13:59fact the asymmetry that you're using to
14:02your advantage is the fact that everyone
14:04can activate twice through the network
14:05counteract. And that was not available
14:07before because you couldn't move with
14:09network counteract. And that's the big
14:11change that really brought all the extra
14:12juice.
14:15>> Yeah, that's definitely one of the big
14:16changes that brought a lot of the extra
14:18juice in just being able to project
14:20incredibly long threat ranges for a 5-in
14:22move team. You really people once you
14:26shoot them once with the melta gun if
14:27they're not like familiar with the team
14:28they're like okay that can't happen
14:30again. You're like how many melt guns do
14:31you have left? I have like this hidden
14:32one and then I have the P2 gun then I
14:34have two piercing one guns and then I
14:35have the leader with this crazy gun and
14:36they're like I don't want to be shot by
14:37you anymore. And that slowly becomes
14:39what it's about. Um
14:42the
14:45Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.
14:46>> Yeah. And that's you know honestly
14:48between the two GW opens that I've been
14:50at. It's funny cuz I there were a lot of
14:52battlecade players at Maserich and this
14:55was before the change and all of them
14:56were like well the team's really hard to
14:58play and they're kind of and
14:59[laughter] now listening to you talk
15:01about them it's like well they're kind
15:02of hard to play but you could do a whole
15:04bunch of stuff so I'm sure if you if
15:07there are listeners who are Battleclid
15:08fans who thought the changes sounded
15:10good now's probably the time to pick
15:11them up cuz I don't think they are
15:13overpowered by any stretch of the
15:15imagination. You know they're not the
15:16most uninteractive team we have floating
15:18around in the game. We've got Koptic
15:19Circle. We've got Raveners who just
15:21aren't on the board. We have Tempestus
15:22Akalons who can just kind of hang out
15:24for a little bit and then pop down if
15:26you're not really playing heads up.
15:28We've got bigger horde teams that can
15:30out activate BattleClade. You know,
15:31Battleclad aren't the most activated
15:33team in the game, but they are probably
15:34one of the ones that have the most kind
15:36of interaction. You know, Ratlings
15:38probably right next to BattleClade and
15:39how much reactivity you can have for
15:41your opponent because it's just baked
15:42into the core rules for your team,
15:44right?
15:45>> Yeah. Uh, I think the other thing about
15:48Battle Clay that I wanted to say that
15:50sort of maybe takes some of the mental
15:51load off you and offloads it onto your
15:53opponent is once you've activated a unit
15:57like I move and shoot you. It's sort of
15:58TP3 or something. That model is still a
16:01threat. And that sort of really flips
16:04the script on like normal kill team
16:06fundamentals where you're like that
16:07guy's already activated. I don't need to
16:09worry about him. I'm going to go get
16:10some value on the other side of the
16:11board. But now they're like if I don't
16:13kill him oh he could shoot this guy now.
16:15and they're like, "Crap, maybe I have to
16:17kill this guy instead of killing the
16:18ready guy." And it sort of like really
16:20flips that script. And it's just more
16:22stuff that they have to consider. I know
16:25basically what I can do with him cuz
16:26I've done this so many times now. And
16:29they're they have to like mentally take
16:30on that load now, which I think is
16:33pretty interesting as far as the team
16:35goes cuz like once you get comfortable
16:36with it, they have to start thinking
16:37about the network counteracts and if
16:39they're not familiar with all the the
16:40crap, it's overloading them instead of
16:42you.
16:45Yeah, that's definitely something that I
16:46found, you know, from the old days of
16:48being a horde shooting player. A lot of
16:49the game was kind of predicated on these
16:51out activation turns that, you know, as
16:53we've moved to a more hyper elite meta
16:55game with a lot of five and six
16:56operative teams, people have kind of
16:58lost that muscle or there's not as many
17:00people who are willing to take those
17:01risks because any one of those risks on
17:03the 12 operative teams, you know,
17:04Farucker, Kimban, there's not a ton of
17:06room for error. You know, Battleclad,
17:08they've got the damage resistance and
17:09they've got, you know, a pocket melta
17:11gun. So if you lose one guys, maybe not
17:13the end of the world for a Farstuck or
17:14Kinban, you could probably lose two
17:16guys, but god forbid a charge fight
17:18shoot that kills two or three crruit and
17:20leaves, you know, leaves you stuck in
17:22with a space marine. It's going to be a
17:23lot harder to manage that.
17:25>> Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
17:27>> And you know, your run ended up with you
17:30fighting against Wolf Scouts, probably
17:31one of the other factions that I think
17:33are pretty good in the metag game right
17:34now. Do you have any thoughts on how
17:36that actual matchup lines up now that
17:38you've played it or, you know, now that
17:40you've thought about it? It was a 1411
17:41game, so it was still a pretty close
17:43game. You managed to make it kind of
17:45uninteractive. You know, when I walked
17:46by, there was a a long measuring period
17:49where we checked if someone could do
17:50something and then as we walked away and
17:52we came back like 5 minutes later, you
17:54guys had both decided, hey, actually,
17:55you know, we didn't want [laughter] you
17:56to make that play. So, the
17:57uninteractivity seemed to have gone both
17:59ways. Do you have any thoughts on like
18:02>> if you were to play that matchup from
18:03the Wolf Scout side, like how would you
18:06have changed that game?
18:08Uh, I think it's aggression, right? I
18:11think he was scared of all the things
18:13that I could do. And he basically
18:17respected a lot of my stuff, maybe too
18:18much. The thing I'm honestly the most
18:20scared about is if someone just starts
18:22running at me and I'm like, then they
18:24start pushing at you. You maybe they're
18:26going to eat a melta shot. And then
18:27after that, they're just on me. And
18:29that's the most terrifying thing for me
18:31because there's going to be multiple
18:33marines. It's really hard for me to deal
18:35with multiple marines at the same time.
18:36And because a lot of my guns hit on
18:38fours, if the dice don't go my way, it's
18:41just like, okay, all these marines are
18:42just tearing me apart. Um, I think
18:46that's probably the biggest thing that I
18:47would be eyeing from the wolf scope
18:48point of view is just like eat a melta
18:50shot and then get in. Um, but when he
18:54gives me that space and sort of how the
18:56game unfolded, I don't remember which
18:58the number of the Vocus map, but it's
18:59one where there's like an objective dead
19:01center of the board and then there's two
19:02strongholds straddling the middle and I
19:05was able to put a breach token in the
19:07corner of one of those strongholds. And
19:09basically what I was doing was we were
19:10playing what was last round? Secure. I
19:13think it was secure. He wanted to wait
19:15for me to go to the middle um and then
19:18like counter punch me and like kill a
19:19guy on there and like use that to kick
19:21off his turn. So basically the way that
19:22it ended up unfolding was like last
19:24activation I'd go into the center point
19:26and then strat phase my leader would
19:28come back through the hole and then he's
19:30like I can't hit anybody like and I was
19:32like I'm just going to loop this stuff
19:33every single turn until you like start
19:35putting operatives out there and then he
19:36started having to put the operatives out
19:38there. Um and then it turned into I have
19:41to steal with a sniper that's guarding
19:42on conceal. I have to deal with them.
19:44It's really hard to set up the network
19:46counteract stuff against them because
19:48they can order flip in the storm. So
19:50even someone who's activated after that
19:53activation's done, they order flip and
19:54then shoot the guy that's within two or
19:56charge the guy that's within two and now
19:57they have a staging point. So any teams
20:00like Death Watch can do the same stuff
20:02as far as elite teams. So elite teams
20:03that can do that type of work, um it's
20:06much harder to set up your uninteractive
20:09stuff on. Um, so yeah, I think once he
20:14realized it, it was probably like a turn
20:15too late and that's why the score sort
20:17of reflected that where I was just like
20:19ekking out this like slight advantage.
20:21And that's probably indicative of how a
20:23lot of my games went where I'm just
20:24sitting on retrieval tokens. I'm doing
20:26this like ping-pong back and forth
20:27through like breach holes and stuff like
20:29that. And then people were just like not
20:32running at me enough to just deny me
20:34like this type of play pattern that I
20:36was imposing on them.
20:39So, we've got our, you know, resident
20:42overly aggressive [laughter] player on
20:43the podcast. You know, from listening to
20:45it, you know, Jason's playing
20:46Gormongers. What kind of game plan would
20:48you structure to fight into this
20:50battleclaid Castle? You know, hiding
20:52behind an accessible token. He's doing
20:54retrieval on the last activation and a
20:57half of any given turn because he's got
20:58two extra activations over you. As you
21:00set up your 8 in charges, he dashes back
21:03on network counteract an extra two
21:05inches away. You know, what's the game
21:06plan here, Jason? Well, you see, Garmore
21:09mongers have a similar thing going on
21:11where everybody is surprised at how far
21:13they charge cuz like 7 in native
21:15movement that you boost up to eight and
21:17then you add two more onto that. It's
21:19like if you're within 11 in I'm going to
21:21get there and then uh I'm like I am
21:24going to set up barricades so that I am
21:28in light cover and you have to I guess
21:30you can seek light me but I'm like I'll
21:32eat a shot cuz you can only do eight
21:34damage anyways. And then I just want to
21:36stage all eight guys to get within
21:38charge range of you and then charge you
21:40eight times at once. And I'll totally
21:42eat a shot or two on the way in, like
21:45before I even start charging.
21:47>> Um, and then just hope that some of the
21:51aspirin can get like three or four kills
21:54a pop. And if that happens, then
21:58Gore mongers are happy. But I could
22:00totally see that being an absolute
22:01catastrophe for either one of us just
22:04because the super aggressive gormongers.
22:07Um
22:08even when you like
22:11I don't know there the gormongers are
22:13super duper volatile on the dice as well
22:15and playing them ki is something I would
22:18just not be interested in. So, I am
22:20trying to crack the code on the super
22:21aggressive thing. And uh the a shooty
22:24castle sounds very interesting and kind
22:26of spooky. And I think I would just full
22:29send play that game five times in a row,
22:31full send it, and then decide if it's
22:32hopeless or not.
22:35>> I I am spooked by like teams like
22:37Garmongers, teams like Falore,
22:39>> teams where I just
22:42mandate to ignore walls. You you set up
22:44this beautiful castle, you block your
22:45opponent, like I'm going to ignore
22:46walls. I'm going to triple charge you.
22:48you're like, "Wait, I don't want to be
22:50triple charged." You're like, "And I'll
22:51twoot you when I go in."
22:52>> And all of that is dangerous. So perhaps
22:55were there other were there teams at uh
22:58Edmonton that you were worried about
22:59seeing, you know, just in the pairings?
23:02>> Uh Broo Brothers was the one I was the
23:04most worried about. Croo I think is fine
23:07even with their three five blades with
23:09your four up feel no pain and just like
23:11even on eight wounds,
23:13you're probably going to live through
23:14that just by like pairing out and doing
23:16stuff. um you can sort of like start
23:19just aggressing on them and just using
23:20your feel no pains and your wound pool
23:22to your advantage. Um brood brothers is
23:24a bit trickier because of magus in
23:27particular.
23:29Uh battleclad really don't like being
23:30stunned and the magus is just like a
23:32stun stick and then the mortal wounds
23:34from the magus also get around the the
23:37feel no pains and stuff like that and
23:38then they out activate you. So that's
23:41really spooky. Uh Gormongers, I don't
23:43even know if there was a single
23:44Gormongers player at the tournament. I
23:45was I was spooked about that and I was
23:47spooked about Felgore which I ended up
23:48playing once. Um
23:52yeah, I think that was most of the stuff
23:53that I was like I don't want to face
23:54this when I was thinking about the
23:55tournament.
23:56>> Yeah, you we got pretty lucky. You know,
23:58it wasn't a massive tournament by any
23:59means. You know, 41 players, a fairly
24:01good turnout. You know, not quite as big
24:03as last year, but at 11 rounds for this
24:06big these new big tentpole GW events,
24:09you know, it is a way different
24:10structure with a 3day format. And how
24:13did you feel about it between the two
24:15years? Did you go last year? I forget.
24:18>> No, I didn't go last year. Um, this is
24:20the longest tournament that I've played
24:22in. I think Worlds was what, 10 year 10
24:24rounds last year. Is that
24:25>> Worlds is 10 rounds, but more hours per
24:28rounds. This year, GW for their open
24:30structure has 11 rounds. So, it's
24:32normally two days into a three round
24:35final bracket for the top eight.
24:38>> I really liked it. Um, I have a a young
24:41son, so I only really get out for like a
24:43tournament every once every couple
24:44months. So, when I do get out, I'm just
24:47like, as many games as we can get, like
24:49I'm ready to go. So, I was a fan of the
24:5111 rounds just because a it's lots of
24:54games and I can get lots of games in
24:55with my friends. And then b, we're in a
24:57completely different city. I'm from like
24:59the Toronto area in Canada. So, we got
25:01to meet the guys from Vancouver. We got
25:03to meet the guys from Calgary, Regina,
25:05all over the rest of Canada and just
25:06sync up with them and talk. So, it's
25:09really just an excuse to just meet new
25:11people and like play some games. So, I
25:13was stoked that it was 11 rounds.
25:16>> Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a good
25:17perspective to have cuz, you know, it
25:19seems like a really long tournament. It
25:20the tournament was a little bit smaller,
25:21but it felt like overall, you know,
25:23having watched both years tournaments,
25:26it felt like the Canadian players,
25:27everyone's kind of like leveled up a
25:28little bit, you know.
25:31>> Yeah, it does feel like that. Um, I'm
25:33pretty I haven't actually played against
25:35any of the other guys from Canada until
25:36this event. Um, but all my games were
25:39super tight, like the scores reflected.
25:41Um, we've been pretty well insulated in
25:44like southern Ontario with just like our
25:46group that plays. We also play with
25:48Shane down in Rochester quite a bit. He
25:50comes up to our events and has beaten
25:52been beating us up for a while. So, um,
25:55but yeah, we've definitely been trying
25:56to level up. Learned a ton at Worlds
25:58last year and just got my my ass beat
26:01there. So, it was it's just a really
26:04good experience, right? And I think if
26:05you go into these like big tournaments
26:07with like a learning mindset rather than
26:09like I need to win or something like
26:10that, like that's how you actually get
26:12better at the game. And just like um I
26:15played against uh Graden, who's one of
26:17the Vancouver guys in round three, and
26:18that was my only loss. And I remember
26:20after that loss, I was like, "Dude, that
26:22was a sick game. Let's go grab beers
26:24after. Let's just like chat about the
26:25game. Let's just go hang out." And I
26:27think the more that we can just do that
26:29type of stuff, the more that we're going
26:30to grow our communities, the more we're
26:32just going to grow. Like now I know a
26:33bunch of people from across Canada who
26:34play the game. I have their Discord.
26:36We're going to play some TTS. Do that
26:37type of stuff. That's really how you're
26:39going to like level up your game. And
26:40just like Canada as a whole is going to
26:42get better or your scene is going to get
26:43better if you're from somewhere else
26:45trying to do this.
26:46>> Yeah. And honestly, consistently, my
26:47favorite thing to hear is like when top
26:50players are also talking about good
26:52sportsmanship and like experiencing
26:54that. And that is just like the best
26:56thing you can ever hope for or in a game
26:58like this. And that's a big part of why
27:00I love Kill Team so much.
27:03>> Yeah, cuz really at the end of the day,
27:04it's just a communication game. It's
27:06just like, let's make sure we're on the
27:07same page about this. I'm going to tell
27:09you my alpha strike so you're aware of
27:10it and it doesn't feel like a gotcha or
27:12anything like that. And at the end of
27:14the day, you get to make a decision how
27:15you want to deal with that information,
27:16right? And you can go there and get shot
27:18or you can be like, I don't want to go
27:19there. And then it's on you to sort of
27:21like figure that out. But if
27:22everything's above board, it's an open
27:23information game. Um, that's really like
27:27what I love about the game at the end of
27:28the day and how I feel like it should be
27:30played. So, I totally agree with you. I
27:32love when that type of stuff happens.
27:37Yeah, the Battleclaid
27:39is definitely one of the teams with a
27:41lot of weird tricks and a lot of like
27:42weird angles. You know, they've got new
27:44equipment and I'm kind of curious, you
27:46know, I've personally played BattleClade
27:47a couple times, not not super regularly,
27:50but you've got like these three tech
27:52pieces. You've got the medic, you've got
27:54the auto proxy, and you have the
27:55breacher, but you always take the
27:56breacher. The breacher is always taken.
27:58But the other two, but sometimes, you
28:00know, they're kind of in a weird spot.
28:01The medic not always the best operative.
28:04It doesn't have, you know, these helpful
28:06helper pieces don't have guns. So, they
28:09just kind of sit around in the back
28:10lines with their uh, you know, bolter
28:12hand profiles. You know, they've got a
28:15lethal five, three, four on the auto
28:17proxy, so he can go zap people a little
28:19bit. Doesn't really do all that much
28:21most of the time. And then the medic,
28:23he's got a rending hands. Uh, you know,
28:25four on fours, three, four rending. Like
28:28truly some riveting stuff for the kill
28:31team players. But
28:32>> are you replacing them with extra guns
28:35or is it actually that the tech is
28:37actually so useful that you know the
28:39realistic thing is you're always going
28:40to use these tech pieces or is it a
28:42matchup thing?
28:43>> Uh I think it's a matchup thing. Like I
28:46said I don't have a ton of reps on the
28:47team and this is just like what I've
28:49found so far. But I'm basically just
28:51bringing the medic into shooty teams.
28:53He's he's a quite good medic. He doesn't
28:55suffer the minus one penalty when the
28:56guy dies and neither does the guy that
28:58died. So that's
28:59>> D3 plus which is
29:01>> D3 plus is huge. Um and you can do it
29:04twice importantly because of network
29:05counteract. So you can like heal network
29:07counteract heal which comes up a lot. Um
29:09but yeah basically just bring him into
29:11shooty teams. You sort of set up that
29:12weird 3-in bubble daisy chain with like
29:15a big 11 moon servtor and then one of
29:17your leader the techno or the underser.
29:20Um other than that I haven't brought him
29:23into melee teams yet. I haven't tested
29:24it out. Maybe there's some sauce there
29:25just for like healing wounds and like
29:27trying to live fights, especially with
29:28the 11 wound guys. Uh I would say the
29:32auto proxy is an autotake. I've taken
29:33him every single game. The most
29:35important thing there is being able to
29:36relay orders from the underser. So you
29:39get to set up sort of two six-inch
29:40bubbles. You play them on opposite sides
29:43of the map. Um and then it really gives
29:45you that dash dash and the double
29:47network counteract stuff via the
29:48underser. And for trying to farm the CP,
29:51you also need that in range of the
29:53underser or the auto proxy. I think he's
29:55an auto take. And he gives you saturate,
29:57seek light, ignore obscuring from one
29:59model. And the saturate is just from
30:00visibility, which is really, really
30:02strong. Um, and then
30:05>> do you ever take crack grenades to make
30:07up for the lack of, you know, shooting
30:09on those two operives?
30:10>> I will take I've been taking the crack
30:12grenades if I take the medic. And it's
30:13basically exactly what you said is
30:16there's been so many times where I'm
30:17like, I don't really want to fight you.
30:18I just want to I just want to shoot you
30:20and they don't have guns. So, it just
30:22shores up that weakness a bit. Um I
30:24would say the team is pretty crammed on
30:26equipment slots like because they have
30:28so many like matchup dependent pieces.
30:31Um and you want to take like barricades
30:32to slow the fast teams down that are
30:34trying to rush you down. Um sometimes
30:37it's hard to fit in the crack grenades.
30:39I haven't tried dropping them yet when
30:40I'm taking those two operatives, but
30:42that's sort of been my go-to. Um, and
30:45then the breacher every single game.
30:46Like he's one of the best operatives
30:48just especially on Vulcus where you can
30:49sort of punch holes and stuff. He has an
30:51amazing gun. He has a power sword that
30:53hits on fours. So he's got like utility,
30:56incredible melee, and incredible
30:59shooting all in one operative. So like
31:01you're taking him every single time.
31:05Yeah, definitely a team that I feel like
31:07is CP hungry, equipment hungry, hungry
31:10for everything. And then when you do it
31:12all, you still hit on fours. So you're
31:14like a one ceaseless hitting on fours.
31:16You're like, "All right, I can maybe
31:18kill something or I will heavily mim."
31:21But you can't ever rely on any specific
31:23results.
31:24>> Yeah. And that's sort of where I think I
31:26sort of leaned into this more like KG
31:29and reserved play style where it was I
31:31don't really want to turn it into like
31:33an all-out gunfight for as long as I can
31:36because I just want to pick and choose
31:37my shots and if they go bad they're at a
31:40time where I'm like it's at the end of a
31:42turning point. It's in a spot where you
31:44can't hit me anymore. So when it goes
31:45bad I'm like okay the game isn't over
31:48because of this one shot or failing this
31:50shot and so on. So,
31:53I try and really I'm spending the four
31:54up feeling no pain. If I think I'm going
31:56to be getting hit, um the balanced and
31:58accurate ones,
32:00if I'm not going to get hit in a turn
32:01and I don't think it's going to turn
32:03into a big fight, I'll just not spend on
32:05them. And really, I'm just leaning on
32:07the ceaseless or, you know, if I need
32:09to, if I get like three hits on fours or
32:11something like that, I'll just spend the
32:12CP reroll if I need it. Um, I think
32:14there was one time in the tournament I
32:16went up to 9 CP just from like having to
32:18go twice the first two or three turns
32:21and then it was like the auto proxy just
32:23hitting his CP thing and then you're
32:24just sitting there like I'm rich. I'm
32:26rich in CP and then a turn later you're
32:29like I'm down to one. How did I
32:31>> before you burn it all? Yeah, because
32:33there, you know, you mentioned a couple
32:34times that you have this little bit of a
32:36trap with the medic against shooting
32:38teams. You know, I'm just going to
32:39describe it all just so for anyone who's
32:40listening, they know what it is. You've
32:42got the 11 wound uh big servtor that's
32:44probably not going to die all that well.
32:45You've got your leader, one of your
32:47undersseers within 3 in of him so that
32:49if the underser gets shot, you can have
32:51the big servtor jump in the way and then
32:53the medic is right there so that when
32:54you jump in the way, the big guy dies
32:56and then the medic saves him or the
32:58medic, you know, can pick and choose.
33:00And then after they've saved the big
33:01guy, you know, hopefully the big guy is
33:03safe and then your leader can go off on
33:04his merry way and do whatever he wants.
33:06But notably, that also works as a
33:08defensive melee position because the
33:10leader can have a dork, a servtor, jump
33:13in the way of him, and then you get
33:14combat support. And the servtors aren't
33:16great, but the big servtors are an
33:18acceptable melee threat if you're taking
33:20the equipment that gives them severe and
33:22shock. And then they have three dice
33:24hitting on fours, four, five, brutal
33:26shock. Severe is perfectly acceptable
33:28defensively, especially if you have your
33:31leader there providing combat support.
33:33>> Exactly. And then also if you have the
33:35four up feel no pain up like it's quite
33:38hard for someone to actually kill you
33:39through all of that. So um yeah it's a
33:43great little tech piece and I think sort
33:44of a segue into like the firefight play
33:46PS and where like the CP hungriness
33:47comes from. All of their firefight play
33:50PS are amazing. They're all very
33:52situational but they're so so strong. Um
33:56you have the get down Mr. President like
33:58you just talked about so situationally
33:59very good. You have ignore piercing on
34:02the techno and on the underser. So also
34:06when that comes up, someone wants to
34:07come melt at you, you you spend your
34:09money and then you're all good
34:10hopefully. Uh and then you have two
34:13>> They both have three up saves, nine
34:15wounds, a four up shrug on every single
34:17die probably, and then if you're
34:19ignoring piercing, you know, you can
34:20survive a threehit melta gun,
34:24>> maybe a four hit melt gun depending on
34:25how many crits they roll.
34:26>> Yeah, exactly. Um, and then the the
34:30other two which are very very
34:32situational but are probably the two
34:34best plays on the team is system
34:36exorcism which is sort of like word soup
34:39when you read it but you can basically
34:41remove a negative rules effect from you.
34:43So that could be something like stun. It
34:44could be a poison token. It can also be
34:46stuff like um like a box scream. If
34:49someone box screams you, you're like nah
34:50I'm getting out of here. Um and it
34:54>> any rules of effect before your
34:55activation takes hold. And actually, you
34:57know, it came up during the tournament.
34:59Someone asked if you could remove uh
35:00scattering movements, and I it it's a
35:03rules effect. So, you can definitely
35:05just purge whatever you want, but you
35:07can't purge injury.
35:09>> Yeah, you can't purge injury. But, it's
35:11just one of those things that again,
35:13when the game's really close and you're
35:15like, I can remove that scout enemy
35:16movement, you're down one point, that
35:19puts you maybe down on the primary OP a
35:21little bit, and it's just like you're
35:22really like dancing that fine line. And
35:24that type of situational ploy just is
35:26like a get out of jail free card. And
35:28again, it's just like really hard for
35:30teams to set up like I'm going to vox
35:31scream that guy and then I'm going to be
35:33able to get him no matter what. Even if
35:34you want initiative and you can just be
35:36like nope, I'm chugging that. I'm out of
35:37here. Um and then the last one is again
35:41with the underser techno. Uh you don't
35:45need to be on an objective to perform a
35:47mission action. You can be 4 in away.
35:49And this is another way that you can
35:51just like play this really gi retrieve
35:53game where it's like I don't even need
35:54to get to the center objective. I'm
35:56going to be four inches away from the
35:57center objective. I'm going to retrieve
35:58and then basically because of how the
36:00boards are set up, you can be just 4 in
36:03away from the center objective last
36:05activation 4 in retrieve it and then in
36:07the strat phase you can just repo back
36:10all the way back to your DZ. So it's
36:11just like you're just completely safe. I
36:13don't even have to put a model out there
36:14to commit any of this stuff. Um, so
36:18yeah, also an incredible ploy to just
36:20again play the sort of keep away game
36:22and not get close.
36:23>> Yeah, that sounds like it's like the
36:25centerpiece of the non-interactiveness
36:27of it.
36:28>> And you can even do some other silly
36:30stuff. You know, if you're out
36:31activating, you know, you mentioned that
36:32you've got this, you know, back and
36:34forth where your leader is doing the
36:35ping-ponging stuff, but because you have
36:37Seeker of the Divine Arcana as a strat
36:39gambit, you can do a full reposition. If
36:41you're holding a retrieval token, you
36:42can just go wherever you want.
36:43>> Yeah, exactly.
36:44>> You can just launch to the completely
36:46orthogonally to your opponent or run
36:48back in through a breache hole and out
36:50the other breach hole. So, there's a
36:51whole bunch of kind of crazy movement
36:52you can do because you're holding a
36:54retrieval token. You know, in the last
36:56set of objectives before we had
36:58retrieval, we were able to plant beacons
37:01and that was another way that, you know,
37:02the technoarchchaeologists would get
37:04away with some stuff. You have uh I will
37:06plant this beacon on your half of the
37:07board in my side of the board without
37:09being anyone being able to see you.
37:11I think that one got eroded where you
37:13couldn't actually place the beacon, but
37:15that's what people were doing at the
37:16start and you're like, "This is broken."
37:19>> Yeah. So, definitely a team that has a
37:22whole bunch of silly little options. Did
37:25you find yourself uh leaning on one of
37:27the tech priests a little bit more?
37:28Obviously, the technoarchchaeologist has
37:30got the better gun and these all the
37:32different options for your operatives to
37:34move. Was one of them more important
37:36than the other? Did you end up throwing
37:37one away or were they both equally
37:38important for your overall game plan?
37:41Um, I think they're equally important
37:43and they serve very different roles on
37:46the team. Um, the undersseer is the one
37:49that can set up your big plays through
37:52like the dash dash and that type of
37:54stuff. And he's the one that I think
37:56there was a lot of games where he almost
37:57stood in the same spot the whole game.
37:59He's really just like commanding his
38:00underlings. Do the dashing, get into
38:02position. I'm going to farm a CP. Like I
38:04don't know how many times I like farm a
38:06CP, dash dash two guys. And I I did that
38:09so so many times over the tournament.
38:11And then the other side of that is he
38:13can also tell like this guy network
38:14counteract. This guy network counteract,
38:16right? And as soon as the game turns
38:17into like a big gunfight, him activating
38:21and potentially going shoot a guy
38:23himself, tell this guy to network
38:25counteract, tell that guy to network
38:26counteract. It's so much firepower in
38:28one activation, you're getting
38:30potentially three shots off that keeping
38:32him safe is really, really, really
38:34important.
38:35The other side of it with the techno is
38:37he's the one that has to like flirt with
38:39disaster. He's the one that has to like
38:41get up there. He's the one toying with
38:43the center point. Um, a lot of the times
38:46one of the strat play PS they have is
38:48you can count as one higher APL for
38:51contesting a point. So, because the
38:53Technos 3 APL, when I was playing
38:54against Marines and stuff like that, I
38:57would put it on the center point and
38:58then for missions like transmission and
39:00stuff like that, I would just be like,
39:02"Last activation, he's he has to be on
39:04the center point. I'm going to steal it
39:05out from under you now." And then
39:08potentially then he's going to screw off
39:09in the strat phase, right? And he's the
39:11one that like once you sort of have to
39:12do that type of stuff, he's probably
39:15going to get charged the turn after this
39:16happens. Um, and then you sort of need
39:18to set up like, okay, he was within
39:20three of a get down, Mr. president after
39:22his stratphase repo. You hit him, but
39:24you're hitting the other guy. Now, you
39:25potentially have to commit two fights to
39:27kill these guys and stuff like that. And
39:29that's usually when the action starts
39:31going as soon as you start doing those
39:33type of things to people. Um, so you
39:36want to keep him safe for as long as you
39:37can, but he's also a way to start
39:40scoring out from under marines. And like
39:42the the other side of it is because like
39:44you said, once you have the retrieval
39:45token, you can sort of go wherever you
39:46want. You don't really want to do this
39:47because you don't want to lose your
39:48retrieval token. But in the strat phase,
39:51if you win initiative and you're already
39:52on the center point, you could be like,
39:54I'm going six inches forward and then
39:56you can move dash after that. And then
39:58it's like those guys back in your DZ
39:59that are within one of each other. He's
40:02got a 1 in dev three gun. It's like he's
40:03coming to shoot you now. So you don't
40:05really want to do that, but it's one of
40:07those things that like you let your
40:08opponent know and they're like, "Oh, god
40:10damn it." [laughter]
40:12It's just like,
40:12>> well, who knows? Every once in a while
40:13in Tomb World when you've got the lethal
40:15five floating I mean it comes with
40:17lethal five out the box you don't have
40:18to do anything bonus for it but every
40:20once in a while if your opponent is
40:21grouped up
40:22>> yeah the crazy thing on Tomb World you
40:24can do is once you have the token if you
40:26end on a teleporter pad I'm pretty sure
40:28it's legal I haven't done this yet you
40:30can straface TP through it and then you
40:33could okay now my activation potentially
40:36shoot some guys and then repo back on
40:38your actual activation which is just
40:40like crazy and thinking through those
40:42type of things and putting that on your
40:43opponent to be like, "Oh, he could do
40:45this. I don't want to have to deal with
40:46this." And it's just so much of these
40:48like weird interactions. Another one on
40:50Tomb World that you can do is um if I'm
40:53on a teleporter bat and like people will
40:54set this up where it's like, "Okay, if
40:56you TP me, I'm going to TP you." And
40:58then you basically go, "Okay, first
40:59activation repo, swap places with the
41:01guy." And then you're like, "Network
41:03counteract, tell my buddy back there
41:05that's in the room with you now to take
41:07the shot." Right. And like those type of
41:09things are just nasty. [snorts]
41:12Yeah, definitely pretty gross. And now
41:14that you have the transfer power for
41:16free every turn, you can on those like
41:19teleporter switches, you can repo over,
41:20go on guard, and tell your friend to
41:23shoot the guy that just teleported into
41:24the open. It's pretty nasty. Yeah, that
41:27that equipment I think is an autotake
41:29just because it does set up uh like
41:32potential double kills with like your
41:34your dorks activating where you can go
41:35like
41:35>> I mean realistically when you think
41:37about it, it's almost like you have four
41:39separate coms that you get for the whole
41:42game every turn. You know, Farucker
41:44Kinman got their one trophy they're
41:45allowed to use once a game. Meanwhile,
41:47the battle are out here with four
41:49separate trophies that they use every
41:50turn.
41:51>> Whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, it's not it's
41:52not four trophies, but it's pretty good.
41:57It's not quite four trophies, but it is
41:59definitely a whole bonus APL now that
42:01they didn't have. You know, you know,
42:02this was one of the April changes where
42:04neurosyclic reserve cells used to be D3
42:06transfer powers that couldn't fight or
42:08shoot.
42:09>> And uh notably, you could maybe use all
42:12three on the same turn, but because you
42:13couldn't fight or shoot with them,
42:15>> right,
42:16>> were they really?
42:17>> Exactly. Um, so, uh, on the topic of
42:21uninteractive slop, have you come across
42:23any other uninteractive teams and, uh,
42:28figured out some clever ways to break
42:30through?
42:31>> I uh, Raveners was one of them. So, I
42:35had to play Ravveners
42:37three times, I think, in Edmonton, and I
42:40lost one of them. Um, so I got pretty
42:42comfortable with that after playing it a
42:44bunch. But there's sort of two things
42:47that I leaned on. One, it's really hard
42:48for them to play the whole board. Um, so
42:52you can basically set up your leader on
42:53the side that they're really light on,
42:55and then you can use that ploy to
42:57basically treat yourself as 4 APL. And
42:59if he's not on the side with the lead,
43:01like the Ravener leader, you can OC them
43:04on stuff on that side. Um, the other
43:06thing is you're going to play retrieval
43:08and they're probably going to play
43:10dominate into you. That's what they took
43:11every time into me. And the longer that
43:14you can just play this keep away game
43:16with them and try and like especially on
43:19missions where you have to control
43:20stuff, you can go and sneak it out from
43:24under them. And as soon as you can do
43:25that and you can get a crit lead against
43:28raveners, it starts to be in your favor
43:30a bit. And then in TP4, you're really
43:32just like running for your life. You're
43:33just trying to like not bleed as many
43:35operatives as you can because all the
43:36raveners are going to be charging and
43:37fighting you. So, it's a consistent lead
43:41that you can build on the tack op and
43:44then hopefully trying to sneak stuff out
43:46from under them with your leader to get
43:48a crit op lead as early as you can while
43:50they're not too far up the board. Even
43:51on stuff like loot um on the center
43:54point on like TP2, if you play your
43:56leader there, it's just like he will
43:58strat phase loot and then he's going to
44:00run away and stuff like that, right? Or
44:02he can do the 4 in thing to not even get
44:03close to like the range of where the
44:05tunnel is on TP2. So, as far as like
44:08uninteractive stuff, you just really
44:10have to like start to game plan what can
44:12they do and what are they trying to do
44:14and create your own little g game plan
44:16to counter that. And I think retrieval
44:19because it's so safe and it's so
44:21consistent. It really allows you to
44:22focus your like other scoring axes. So,
44:26I like how I'm not going to bleed any
44:28kill. I'm going to play really KG and
44:29I'm not going to bleed kill. And then
44:31it's like, how can I focus on playing
44:33crit to deny them crit and just start
44:35eating out a lead? And then once I do
44:37have that lead, if the game state stays
44:39like this and they have something like
44:40dominate and I can run away as much as I
44:42can and just kill the operatives that
44:44are getting the dominate tokens, you can
44:46just keep that. And that's why a lot of
44:47my games are so close. It's you're just
44:49trying to eek out that like three, four
44:51point lead, two point lead and just stay
44:53at that. Don't get greedy. Don't try and
44:55like table the avenues. Don't do
44:56anything like that. just like ride that
44:59line once you can you have the lead and
45:00you can like calculate the points and
45:02then just like ride that out for as long
45:03as you can. And I think a lot of Kill
45:06Team and a lot of like what I've learned
45:07over the last like year or two is just
45:10like point counting in a way. Like once
45:12you can start counting points and once
45:13you have a good idea of what your
45:15opponent's tack up is, you can then
45:18create a plan to continue that lead
45:20throughout the following turns and like
45:22identify your like loss conditions. And
45:24I think unto other interact
45:26uninteractive teams, the earlier that
45:28you can identify like how do I actually
45:30lose this game and play around that
45:32that's how you can start eking out those
45:33advantages and like crafting your own
45:34like win strategy to counter it.
45:36>> Yeah.
45:37>> I haven't played against Koptek. I don't
45:39know how that would go. So
45:41>> yeah, and you managed to dodge a couple
45:43of them at Edmonton.
45:44>> Yep.
45:47>> Yeah. Uh, so one of the games that you I
45:50mean I guess the only game that you did
45:51lose in Edmonton was against one of
45:53those Raveners. Was it the first,
45:55second, or the third time you played
45:56them?
45:58It was the second time I played them and
46:00I made two big mistakes. I ended up
46:04getting myself stunned cuz I just like
46:07had a mental brain fart and like forgot
46:10he can just throw a stun on a
46:11counteract. And I'm like, of course he
46:12can throw a stun on a counteract. And
46:14then I got stunned and then the guy that
46:15was going to like get on the point to do
46:16something couldn't do that anymore via
46:18network counteract. Um and then I end up
46:21giving up a blast that I just didn't
46:23measure out. And then he's like, "Oh, I
46:25think those guys are within two." And
46:26I'm like, "Yeah, those guys are within
46:29two. They're dead." And that that's like
46:31one of those things, right? Because I
46:32was like riding that line. As soon as I
46:33gave him a blast and then both those
46:35operatives died, I'm like I'm behind on
46:37the kill op now. He he can now outscore
46:40me. And it's like now I have to start
46:41taking a bunch of risk and trying to
46:42claw my way back into that type of
46:44stuff. So because you are riding this
46:46like fine line, at least how I was
46:48playing. It's you can't really make a
46:51ton of mistakes because as soon as you
46:52start making mistakes, it's you're
46:54trying to like plot back and you have to
46:57do risky stuff and I'm probably not set
46:59up in a way where I can do that.
47:01>> Yeah, it kind of reminds me of when
47:02people were talking about Nemesis or
47:05Murderwing when they first came out. You
47:06can play the super uninteractive camp on
47:08a couple vantages and just pray for a
47:11two-point lead. So, Battleclave kind of
47:12doing much the same thing, right?
47:14>> Yep. At least that's how I've found
47:16success with them. I think there's a lot
47:18of people that I've chatted with on like
47:19command point and stuff that are they're
47:21trying stuff like the phosphor blasters.
47:23They're trying all these other things.
47:24They're playing them aggressively. And I
47:26think that speaks to like the depth of
47:28the team where there's still a lot of
47:29stuff to explore and a lot of different
47:31like play styles. Like what does
47:32Battleade look like if you're like I'm
47:34just running at you with all my guys and
47:35then it's like I'm network counteracting
47:37bang bang bang bang everyone's just
47:38shooting all over the place like maybe
47:40that's sick and maybe that works and
47:41like I want to try that out.
47:43>> Yeah.
47:45>> Uh so I'm guessing you haven't
47:46personally tried that yet, have you?
47:49>> No, I'm too much of a baby. [laughter]
47:53Um, okay. So then you kind of sort of
47:56touched on this uh where someone was
47:59trying to stage against you aggress
48:01aggressively. Did that only happen the
48:03one time or were there like multiple
48:05people that kind of saw the arc of try
48:07to really aggress on you and and like
48:11what was the path through to survive
48:14that?
48:16>> Uh like Falore is a good example of
48:18that. I'm like Thalor is going to be
48:20playing flank. they're going to be
48:21running at me and like how do I deny
48:23this? And a lot of it comes down to I'm
48:26like, okay, I want to get the first
48:28equipment placement. I want to create
48:29some like oneways with equipment where
48:32it's like, all right, you can't fit
48:33there with your 32 mil base. My small
48:35guys can fit through there. I'm going to
48:37slow you down. And it's really just
48:39about like slowing you down so it's like
48:41hard for you to get a good charge off on
48:43TP2 without pay having to pay the the
48:45climb tax. Um, and then a lot of just
48:48like measuring out threat ranges. Like
48:50that's where like most of my time goes
48:52in the tournament is just like, "All
48:53right, you stage that guy there. How far
48:55can he get? I'm going to be outside of
48:56that. Okay, that guy's there. I'm going
48:57to be outside of that." And again, when
48:59I did make those mistakes and someone
49:01put a charge on me or I forgot about
49:03like the one ploy on Felgore or
49:04something and then I'd remember it. It's
49:06like under seer to the rescue. We're
49:08going to do some shuffling. We're going
49:10to get outside that threat range. And
49:12it's a lot of that. And especially on
49:15teams where
49:17um infiltration and seek destroy is a
49:20good example of this is they basically
49:22have to interact with you. They have to
49:23get to you to score their points other
49:25than sweep and clear which I think is
49:26sort of cool now where they do have like
49:28this one little uninteractive avenue now
49:30to do some scoring. Um they have to get
49:32to you and it's like the longer that I
49:34can keep you from getting to me um the
49:37less points that you're going to score.
49:39And the more that you can like realize
49:40that and like play around the tack ops
49:42that they have at their disposal um the
49:45better off you are. But again, Felgore
49:46with like flank and stuff, I know he has
49:48to cross the center line. We have equal
49:50activations. And the more that I can go
49:52second in that matchup, the more that I
49:55can just start killing goats. And then
49:57once I can get my retrieval token and
49:59just
50:01try to outrit them if I can, which is
50:03really really hard against Felgore, uh
50:05the better off I am. So, um, you really
50:08just have to like I think my Felgore
50:10game was one of my closer games. It
50:12might have been a one or a two-point
50:13game because you want to go up on
50:16activations as soon as you can. And the
50:18sooner that you can do that, um, the
50:20easier the following turns become
50:22because the more that I can activate
50:23them, the more that I can start killing
50:24them and I'm going to try and go up
50:26ahead on killing that matchup and that
50:27type of stuff. So, um, yeah. Yeah.
50:32>> Yeah. This is kind of inspiring me
50:34>> to play Casterin with sweep and clear
50:36just to play a little bit of
50:37uninteractive slot myself.
50:39>> There you go. I was playing it on cults
50:41for a little bit and uh I think it do
50:42has play into some of the matchups where
50:44like you know people aren't going to be
50:46giving you those charges and stuff like
50:47that. You can just like I'm going to
50:49threaten the midpoint and then if you go
50:51there I'm going to kill you, get the
50:52sweep token and then score it that way
50:55or if you don't go to the midpoint I'm
50:56going to play the crit and I'm going to
50:58sweep it. and you sort of just like can
51:01play that line with that team as well.
51:02So, it's not good all the time, but it's
51:06something.
51:07>> Yeah. I mean, if you're trying to stay
51:08out of plant banner range and giving
51:10your opponent some important spot
51:12because they're going to beat you in
51:13melee, maybe sweeping clear on your
51:14backfield objective is fine.
51:16>> And it was funny. I was talking to one
51:18of my Ravener opponents, um, Daniel, the
51:20one that I played in the the top eight.
51:22He's like, "I should have taken sweeping
51:24clear against you." Because he's like,
51:26"It's harder to score dominate when I'm
51:28like pushing the kill interaction until
51:30like TP4 most games that he can just be
51:32like, sweep the center point. I'm going
51:34to score this unless you want to come
51:36sit on this and that type of stuff." So,
51:37it gives them then a way to sort of play
51:40some uninterruption as well and score
51:41some consistent attack points.
51:45>> And I guess I, you know, it's a good
51:46thing I just double check this. Sweep
51:47and clear does you cannot sweep uh your
51:51own home objective.
51:52>> Yeah,
51:53>> you got to go to the middle and do it.
51:54So, you know, maybe I won't do it for C.
51:56Maybe we'll just plant plant the banner
51:57and play a shootout. That'll be better.
51:59Who knows?
52:00>> Yeah, exactly.
52:00>> Or we can play martyrs or envoys, you
52:02know, whatever cast are going to do.
52:03>> Yeah.
52:06>> Um, as far as going forward into the
52:09near future, you know, you're on the
52:10East Coast for, you know, Canadian Kill
52:12Team. you play with uh the Toronto group
52:16often enough it sounds like. What are
52:18you looking forward to? Are you going to
52:19keep playing Battle Clay? Are you
52:20looking forward to any local
52:21tournaments? You know, how's it how's it
52:23going over there?
52:24>> Um I will probably keep playing
52:27Battleclaid. Uh that new Exodite team
52:30that got revealed is uh looking pretty
52:32cool. So, I will probably end up
52:35dabbling in that once it does eventually
52:36come out. Um other than that, I don't
52:40really know what team I'm going to play
52:41next. I'm sort of like I gravitate to
52:43more I don't know if you want to call
52:45them like obscure teams but just maybe
52:47off meta stuff has always like
52:50interested me. I started playing the
52:51game when scouts came out and that was
52:54like the main thing that I played all of
52:56second edition. That's when I started
52:57playing the game right when scouts came
52:59out. Um then it was cults for a bit
53:01which no one was really playing in
53:03Ontario and then best bids but
53:05>> okay no one plays cults regardless.
53:07There's like five of you.
53:08>> Yeah. Um, so it's like probably
53:11something in like that realm. Ratlings
53:13do seem interesting because I think it
53:14sort of matches that like sort of play
53:15style that I enjoy like the little bit
53:17of like castling.
53:19Um, but yeah, Jaggers were another one
53:22that was like like oo that looks cool.
53:24And like I don't know if this is like a
53:25problem with me, but like one of the
53:27things that a lot of these teams have in
53:28common is they hit on fours and I'm like
53:30I don't know if I'm just like a
53:30massochist and I'm just like ah let's
53:33just roll some dice and hope for the
53:34best. But it's like they're they're
53:37interesting teams, right? and they play
53:38the game in a different way which I've
53:40always found like inspiring in a way and
53:42like just like an interesting puzzle to
53:44crack where it's like I want to try and
53:45make this work even if like it's
53:47perceived as not as good and I I find
53:50that like a really fun part of the game
53:51is like you can sort of just create your
53:53own fun. You don't have to play like oh
53:55I need to play the S tier team to
53:56succeed or to have fun. Like you just
53:59have to get creative and try and make
54:00your own success with like the way that
54:02the rules shape up and your play style
54:04as well. like how can I play this team
54:06that's unique to me and just make it
54:08work. And I think there's a ton of depth
54:10in kill team and that's why the game's
54:11so great that there's a ton of stuff to
54:13explore and just try like trying
54:15different tack ops. Like the the other
54:16one that I want to try with battle is um
54:19track enemy because you can change your
54:22order.
54:24I can go like just shoot a marine even
54:25if I don't kill him. It's like if I kill
54:27him great, I killed a marine. I'm happy
54:29with that. If I didn't, I'll network
54:30counteract him back to conceal and just
54:32like I'm going to track you now. and
54:34being able to do some stuff like that is
54:36just it's different and it's unique and
54:39I'm just looking for more teams where I
54:40can try that type of stuff out. So, I
54:42don't know what that next team is. Maybe
54:44it's Jagger, maybe it's the new Exodite
54:46team, but something weird like that.
54:48>> Yeah, that's phenomenal. That's 100% how
54:51I feel about Kill Team as well. Trying
54:53to find like blaze your own trail is
54:56like the the most fun ingredients within
54:59the game
55:01>> for sure. I will say the other part of
55:03like blazing your own trail stuff and
55:05where some of this can like really start
55:07to shine is in teams. Um,
55:12we really want to get a team going to go
55:14to WTC for Canada. It just didn't happen
55:16this year, but we're really strongly
55:18thinking about it for 2027. And I think
55:21that's where you can get these like
55:22faction specialists and some of these
55:24more obscure teams and like put them in
55:26a fiveman team event and then create
55:29pairings problems for your opponent.
55:30It's like, okay, if I have Vespids on my
55:32team, it's like, we don't want to
55:33pair them on Vulcus. So, like, not only
55:35are you attacking like a matchup
55:37perspective, you're also attacking like
55:38a map perspective where it's just like,
55:40oh crap, we don't want to get them on
55:41that map. How does this impact our
55:42pairings and how do we actually think
55:44about the pairing process? And I think
55:47that's just so unique and interesting to
55:49the team's events that the ones that we
55:52have done, we've only done a couple so
55:54far, but they're a blast because it's
55:56just like another whole new way to think
55:57about the team and craft it. And just
56:00the scoring also is incredibly unique
56:02because it's differential scoring,
56:03right? So you're not just getting a one
56:09point win if you're supposed to like if
56:12that's a really favorable matchup for
56:13you, that's actually not that big of a
56:15win. So when you're winning in when you
56:18have a really good matchup, you want to
56:19push that lead as much as you can and
56:21then a losing matchup, you want to just
56:22keep it as tight as you can. Like a
56:23one-point loss into what should have
56:24been a slam dunk loss, your team's
56:27stoked for that. So I think that puts
56:29like another whole new perspective on
56:32the game and I love it. I'd encourage
56:34everyone who hasn't given it a try, if
56:36you have a big enough community to start
56:37like running some team events,
56:39definitely give it a go. It's one of the
56:41most fun ways to play Kill Team. Um,
56:45yeah, the other question that you asked
56:46me about like Southern Ontario events
56:48and stuff, we have a golden ticket event
56:51coming up at Chimera Gaming, which is in
56:53Kitchener, Ontario. Um, that is late
56:57July. I don't remember the exact date
56:58off the top of my head, but if you're in
57:00the in the area or willing to travel,
57:03definitely come out. It's probably my
57:05favorite place to play in southern
57:06Ontario. It's a beautiful large store.
57:09Um and James, who runs it, puts on
57:11amazing events. So, if you get the
57:13opportunity to come out, please come
57:14out. It's a ton of fun.
57:16>> Yeah, that sounds great. It's probably
57:18um I know the late July weekend is the
57:2025th and the 26th,
57:22>> so pretty good odds it's that.
57:24>> Yep. Hey, and if we got a link for the
57:27BCP link, it'll be on the show notes,
57:28too.
57:29>> Perfect.
57:32>> Uh, as far as getting a hold of the rest
57:34of the Canadian kill team scene, is
57:37there one joint discord now or is it
57:38still segmented by each of the four
57:42regions or there five? I you know,
57:44honestly,
57:45>> there's a lot of
57:46>> American the amount that I remember
57:47about other countries and their regions,
57:49you know, forgive me. Forgive me, my
57:51global listeners. Yeah, there there's a
57:53bunch of scenes now that we're starting
57:55to notice pop up. There's a bunch of
57:56guys that play out of Montreal. Um
57:59there's the Vancouver guys. There's the
58:00guys in Regina, which I think Qua runs a
58:03Discord for those guys. Uh some guys
58:05from Calgary. Um and then there's us in
58:08sort of southern Ontario. Those are the
58:09ones that I know of, but I'm sure
58:10there's a lot more. Um I can give you a
58:13Discord link to the Great Lakes Skill
58:14Team Discord. That's where all of us
58:16play out of. Um, we're super welcoming.
58:19If you're just getting into the game or
58:20interested about the game or you just
58:21want to like play some tournaments,
58:23definitely hit us up. Definitely join.
58:25We also play some like TTS games and
58:27just like run casual and narrative stuff
58:29as well. So, if you're interested,
58:31definitely join and we'd love to have
58:32you.
58:35>> Sweet. Yeah, that sounds great.
58:38>> Cool.
58:39>> Yeah, we hit on a lot of uh awesome tips
58:41this one. This is uh very well spoken.
58:43Thanks, Dave.
58:44>> Yeah. No, thanks for having me, guys.
58:46This is awesome.
58:48And [music] as always, thank you
58:51listeners for listening until the end.
58:55[music]

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