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Bankless x UpOnly Therapy Stream — Transcript

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0:00yeah we're live brother oh what's up
0:03guys what's up yeah wow thankless after
0:06after dark yeah without Kobe just with
0:09Ledger what's up well he's still in the
0:10shower he's coming right yeah allegedly
0:12yeah yeah yeah he's just showering
0:14unless we're gonna get two rug pulls in
0:16one day yeah I've heard he's uh he's
0:18finalizing the next up only sponsorship
0:20so he's busy
0:23buying FTX right now for one dollar we
0:28can all buy FTX that's no longer a
0:30problem
0:31it's only a dollar it's only a dollar
0:35why are we so stressed out over a dollar
0:37I don't understand because you're buying
0:39it so you might have to pay millions
0:41billions of dollars to make everyone
0:43whole
0:44um to pay their debt
0:46listen on our stream we got a corner on
0:50the bottom left and maybe Kobe will be
0:52there maybe Justin's son will be there
0:54maybe another special guest would be
0:56that I don't know I think if Justin sun
0:57gets there before Kobe Justin's son gets
1:00to come back another time after that
1:04um Justin's son
1:06did you guys seen this I'll share my
1:07screen for people who don't know he he
1:09just announced that he is planning to
1:11bail us out
1:13oh
1:25we have two different form factors of
1:27live streams uh coming together right
1:30now oh man sorry yeah just tell the
1:33audience they're smart they're smart
1:35smart audience go go subscribe to up
1:37only right now what should we tell them
1:39uh up only dot TV no that's not right go
1:44to Twitter
1:45go to twitch.tv slash up only TV
1:49something like that who cares best
1:52podcast in crypto what are you drinking
1:54David uh oh I am drinking a Naked and
1:56Famous with a habanero in it uh because
1:59like I said while we were getting the
2:01stream ready to go uh Sam bankman freed
2:04made himself very famous but he's been
2:05swimming naked this entire time
2:08that is my drink what are you drinking
2:10Ledger
2:11uh
2:13sorry I was dming Justin's on the video
2:15link I'm stuck in the waiting room wait
2:16is he really is he really coming in uh
2:18here's I need more people on Twitter
2:20here's Kobe I need more people on
2:22Twitter pressroom Kobe is what's up
2:24what's up screwing up my scenes
2:27coming up coming in fashionably late how
2:29you doing David you've upgraded your
2:31background is it a green screen uh no
2:33this is uh Brooklyn not a green screen
2:35it was Brooklyn last time you saw me I
2:38was in San Diego
2:40nice how you doing cozy it's very cozy
2:42it's crazy and nice yes are you already
2:44live yeah we are oh we are live brother
2:46yeah yeah we're live on both channels
2:48and yeah you already messed up my stuff
2:52when two streaming platforms come
2:54together bad things happen uh well yeah
2:58stream if you didn't spend half your
3:01time like [ __ ] redoing it
3:05no sorry I was like I like literally
3:07just woke up so good morning good
3:10morning where did you leave things when
3:12you uh when do you went to sleep
3:16um what do you know yeah
3:19uh oh yeah sure I haven't even looked at
3:22like what's happened since
3:24um well binance had walked away yep
3:28um
3:29and like Sam still hadn't said anything
3:32Susie had just tweeted the like I tried
3:34sad face thing yeah that's about it I
3:36think the only thing that's come after
3:37that is like people have concluded that
3:40there's something like a six to seven
3:42billion dollar hole in fgx's balance
3:44sheet I don't think we've waited I
3:45thought we were up to like eight to ten
3:48do we know Wall Street Journal said it
3:50was about eight right it was like it
3:52could be as large as eight it could be
3:53as large as eight how did that happen
3:55that is a big hole eight billion dollar
3:58hole in your balance sheet
4:01I mean I I don't know if you're asking
4:03me how to lose money on crypto I can
4:04tell you
4:07um
4:08and I mean it seems like they
4:13just did [ __ ] up stuff with customer
4:15deposits right like they just either
4:17loaned them out or directionally traded
4:20them or like used them for their own
4:21personal
4:23reasons
4:25um do you think it was all Alameda
4:27because imagine okay Alameda should have
4:30blown up along with a16 or three three
4:32hours capital and the rest of them but
4:35they got they got yeah that's not invoke
4:37a16c right now uh but but they didn't
4:40because uh FTX uh gave them a big ass
4:43buffer
4:44they didn't give them like a
4:45multi-billion dollar buffer so like it
4:48would have FTX still have gone under
4:51without alamina because I feel like that
4:53answer is almost yes
4:55yeah I mean I don't know I I the only
4:58thing I can think of is plausible but I
5:00have to admit that I just like
5:01constantly reveal myself as naive in
5:03these things because like maybe they
5:04just gave them eight billion dollars
5:06dude like we don't like they could just
5:09done that they could have gone oh it'll
5:10be fine they'll make it back they're
5:12really great Traders
5:13um but they could have also
5:17imagine if they got like a Bitcoin or
5:19ethereum denominated whole
5:22when the prices were much lower so let's
5:25say they had a missing
5:28um like hundred thousand eighth hole or
5:31something but ethereum was worth like
5:33300 at a time
5:35and they were like okay cool we can plug
5:36this whole no drama and then suddenly
5:39ethereum's worth five thousand dollars
5:42and in order to try and cover the whole
5:45they've done stuff wrong and made it
5:47worse perhaps
5:49um I can maybe buy that
5:52um but that means that they've they've
5:54been in trouble for like 18 plus months
5:56now okay but it's so well that's the
5:58thing right it's like um
6:01how like how did SBF get himself in this
6:05situation right like was was this is
6:07this kind of a a person who's a a con
6:10man from the beginning did he do you
6:12think he began with this end game in
6:15mind or do you think he's like a lot of
6:17people who who kind of go down this path
6:20where you know it's a shortcut here to
6:22shortcut here and gradually he kind of
6:24slips into the position that he's found
6:27himself in in in early November like is
6:30he purely nefarious con man or is this I
6:33I I can't think he accidentally stumbled
6:35into like losing eight billion dollars
6:37but pretty impressive is there an
6:39element of that
6:41a main man I don't know I
6:45I don't know like I watched the
6:48surroundings documentary thing recently
6:49and it seems like she started with good
6:51intentions and then things just like
6:52Slipped Away
6:53and then at some point she like turned
6:54and was like
6:56I gotta keep I've got to be evil in
6:58order to like keep this like rolling
7:01and then she chose the evil path yeah
7:03yeah I I I just don't like if it's
7:07impossible to know the like some people
7:10were telling me all this stuff had
7:12happened really recently so
7:15Alameda had a big problem in like
7:17September
7:19um and you I don't know if you saw that
7:20it was a tweet that said like Sam he was
7:22saying we're just moving we're rotating
7:24some wallets and there was like the
7:26eight billion dollars of ftt moved
7:29um at the end of September and he
7:31tweeted oh don't worry about it which is
7:33rotating some wallets but
7:34um
7:35this was the point when
7:37um a bunch of the
7:40um collateral was like um
7:42borrowed against perhaps
7:45um
7:46and in which case it's like you know
7:48they were fine until
7:50really recently and then
7:53almost instantly blew up but I don't
7:56know I I find it easier to suspect that
7:59like gotta be two-steps it was it was
8:01[ __ ] for a while and then like the
8:03tide going out reveals I thought it was
8:06[ __ ] like if it's [ __ ] for a while
8:07and you try and like fix it but like
8:09make it worse and then the tide goes out
8:11and you're just not in control of that
8:13maybe
8:14maybe that makes sense
8:17um but
8:18I mean
8:20who [ __ ] knows dude what second third
8:23biggest exchange there's another element
8:25here that I'm confused to buy which is
8:27now they're talking about the FTX hole
8:29alone so is lending money to Alameda
8:32part of the FTX hole or is that the
8:34Alameda hole right like who you know
8:36what I mean because if it's 8 billion
8:38not even counting money they lent to
8:41Alameda like they did other that's even
8:43dumber right that's what I was saying
8:45that's what I'm saying it's not just
8:46Alameda they would have gone under
8:47regardless of Alameda yeah if it was not
8:51just that kind of what what counterparty
8:53or what did they do with the money well
8:55they bought they bailed out half of the
8:57industry when there was blood on the
8:58streets during entering that was that
9:01was a 250 million dollar line of credit
9:03yeah weren't they weren't they buying a
9:05lot of things
9:06but it doesn't add up it doesn't happen
9:09you can't get a billion dollars worth
9:11out of that so if you're at 8 billion
9:13then what the hell happened
9:15when you're making 10 million a day or
9:17more or whatever or whatever Kobe did
9:19the napkin math on based on trading fees
9:21it doesn't make any sense like and if
9:23that's the case then there's got to be
9:25some like really serious fraud
9:27maybe it was just really simple and they
9:29went right okay so we make you know
9:32low mid eight figures a day if we borrow
9:35a billion dollars of customer deposits
9:38to YOLO into
9:41you know like his personal Robin Hood
9:43stake or something which by Robin Hood
9:45it's good for like alignment of our
9:47companies whatever
9:48um it actually only takes FTX however
9:51many days like
9:53three or four months to re-earn that
9:55money so
9:58like what's the problem there and you do
10:00it once and you like cool it works we're
10:02now whole again uh we actually just
10:04managed to accelerate our business
10:05because we use those customers deposits
10:08to achieve our business goals and now
10:10those customers deposits are replenished
10:12maybe you do that a few times trying to
10:14be like efficient with your all the
10:17money that's available to you
10:19um and suddenly
10:23like you've done it one too many times
10:24and the tide goes out and there's a bank
10:26run and like you know like there was
10:29literally a gigantic background for this
10:32to even be like properly
10:34discovered so they could have operated
10:36much closer to
10:40insolvent like the insolvency line where
10:43they just don't have deposits left
10:45um
10:46if this didn't happen it could have gone
10:47on for years and maybe they could have
10:48even ended up whole
10:50um without us knowing but
10:52um probably not given but on top of that
10:54they've been raising like crazy for the
10:56last year they raise a ton of money at
10:59super high valuation so they also lost
11:01that money too
11:03yeah it was like what two billion in the
11:05last year yeah yeah raised their actual
11:08Capital raise was 2 billion
11:10yeah I didn't realize it was that high I
11:13think that's right I think that's right
11:15enough memory
11:17I think they've noticed billions of
11:19dollars collectively well they the one
11:21raise was like the meme raise that's 420
11:23million 69 000 or something stupid uh
11:27right right but the
11:30um
11:31I don't know what the cumulative was
11:34don't know what they spent the money on
11:36yeah but at least block find a sports
11:38Stadium
11:42there's a line of credit right like it
11:45wasn't it was an option all right the
11:47stadium is paid annually and it's
11:49probably eight figures at most
11:51[Music]
11:52um
11:54a lot a lot of the channel TSM
11:57they did do a big thing with TSM yep
11:59only podcast sponsorship wasn't that
12:01expensive
12:06uh I like
12:08I don't understand where it went I don't
12:10understand apparently has 660 million of
12:13personal uh credit that he was filing
12:16bankruptcy for was that accurate I don't
12:18even know what's real was that was that
12:19right here
12:21yeah I thought that was someone
12:22impersonating tier 10K or whatever okay
12:25so that was the tier 13 fake one yeah
12:28what what about the other
12:31um you know character in this in this
12:34whole thing uh CZ
12:36I mean do you think he Mastermind this
12:38from the very beginning you think he was
12:40planning this was this like downfall of
12:42my competitor like pure Machiavellian
12:46Art of War [ __ ] where he's just like
12:50um trying to knock out SPF trying to
12:52acquire the assets for cheap and then
12:54like maybe now it just got out of hand
12:57like it went too far because I I can't
13:00think that this feels good for binance
13:03it was it's certainly terrible for the
13:05industry I don't know how far this sets
13:07us back like back to 2019 2018
13:102017. I think the question is like did
13:15CZ know the ftt weakness
13:18in in FTX and also Alameda did they know
13:22when he started tweeting because yeah
13:24and what was his plan right like did he
13:27want this to happen
13:28I don't think he I mean I don't think he
13:30wanted he thought he was poking he
13:31thought he was poking a vulnerable bear
13:33and he was poking a scarecrow that was
13:35rotten right I think that's right I
13:38think that's right I think yeah I think
13:39he went into like like
13:41um put them in line
13:43might be like luck look what we can do
13:46to the sentiment around your exchange
13:48like remember who's the boss type thing
13:49big time and then
13:51accidentally exposed
13:54um
13:55a hollow a gigantic Hall yeah but like
13:58if he did actually Mastermind this like
14:00that's kind of crazy that's like one of
14:02the most insane
14:04um like business chess moves
14:07that
14:09I guess I'll get to see in real time in
14:10my life
14:12um
14:13but like maybe that's the thing maybe we
14:15never get to know I don't think so we
14:17always have to we always wonder so we
14:19always love your CZ
14:21oh I don't know about CZ side of it but
14:23in terms of we'll we'll know a lot about
14:25the FTX side oh big time oh yeah the uh
14:29but yeah the CZ side that's
14:31that's up to CZ and bit boy
14:36uh someone should tweet at bit boy get
14:38him to con come on oh God I really don't
14:40like that guy
14:42yeah I mean I really didn't like our
14:44guests yesterday either so uh Kobe
14:46you've never directly interfaced with
14:48bit boy right
14:50um I spoke to him for the first time
14:52ever
14:54um do you remember when the lawsuit was
14:55happening with a tozy yeah so when he
14:58was suing a tozy and then I offered to
15:00fund a tozy right that shows his defense
15:04um I emailed bitboy then well that was
15:07ongoing before he'd like officially
15:09pulled out saying like
15:11just want you to know a tozi's in
15:15hospital right now his wife's due date
15:17is like literally today
15:20um so like all this is happening at the
15:22time his child is being born
15:24um like I will fund him unlimited to
15:26take that stress away
15:28um and like here is why
15:31um
15:32like I don't think that you should do
15:34this and then he sent me a very
15:35thoughtful response and then we've
15:38emailed a couple of times since maybe
15:39like two or three emails exchanged
15:42um the latest one he just asked me like
15:44what I thought of the token promotion
15:47business model in general like is it
15:52even redeemable and I sent him like um
15:55short essay about like how I think the
15:57token promotion business model is just
15:59like only
16:00the only people that want the token
16:02promoters the token promotions from
16:03YouTubers are people that want the price
16:05to go up in the short term like you
16:07never see like are they going
16:09we need to go to like
16:11back like bands crypto banter and get uh
16:15like a token ad
16:16um instead they just built something
16:17that worked and um
16:20um
16:22and then he made a video which was him
16:25basically reading out the email as
16:27though it was his own words
16:30um
16:31which was um
16:33yeah I mean I thought it was pretty good
16:34that he did it and said like this stuff
16:36is bad even though he did that stuff in
16:37the past and it owned up to all that
16:38stuff but
16:39um
16:41yeah other than that I've spoke to him
16:43maybe three times okay well that's more
16:45than that so yeah I mean we just didn't
16:47have a full conversation with him yeah
16:49we had we had like an hour other than
16:51that yeah we are yeah we had one email
16:53and then we had the show with him yeah I
16:56feel like I I feel like I kind of
16:58understand him a lot more after that
17:00like I understand like what he is doing
17:03in the space and like what his
17:05motivations are what is it
17:08um I think I think bitboy really likes
17:10attention oh yeah yeah like but I think
17:14that that
17:15um
17:15motivates him in a way that um
17:19yeah I don't know maybe money motivates
17:21us he has a background in like internet
17:24marketing which I
17:27kind of makes sense and I feel like he
17:29was like oh this crypto thing I can do
17:30internet marketing via viral videos
17:34here and then the ethical consequences
17:37of what the hell he was doing came up
17:38way way later and he was probably too
17:40far gone in terms of what type of
17:43monetization strategies existed so I
17:45kind of understand how he got there but
17:47I don't understand him per se other than
17:49I see what you're saying about from an
17:50attention perspective but
17:52I don't know I mean I can't I can't
17:54connect with it man there's no he could
17:57he you should be able to look at those
17:58deals and recognize there's there's no
18:00winner
18:01with what he was doing with like the
18:03token promotions of like you know [ __ ]
18:06Jam token you know like it just doesn't
18:08you know it's like um he um yeah look
18:12like I agree with that I I think at the
18:14end of the day I walked away from that
18:15and thinking that like oh I mean bit boy
18:17is just kind of like a
18:19of regular guy like he's not a devil
18:22he's not an angel he's just kind of a
18:24he's just a regular guy and one of his
18:28comments when we were talking to him was
18:29like I just started creating content
18:32that my audience wanted right and they
18:34wanted to hear about the latest like
18:36[ __ ] coin that was gonna Moon overnight
18:38and so that's what I gave them and so he
18:42was like what's the harm in that I
18:43there's demand for a product and I serve
18:46it up and like our point is just like
18:49yeah but there's a difference between
18:51what people want and like what people
18:53need and these are noobs and you have
18:55like a responsibility if you have a
18:58platform of your size
19:00um I don't know I'm hopeful he's getting
19:02some of that he seemed kind like
19:04actually he came on the episode and he
19:06was very um he's a different person
19:08contrite like Jason like I I thought we
19:11were going to be in the in the octagon
19:13with like you know WWF wrestler and we
19:17weren't he just came on and he was I
19:19mean he apologized at one point dude
19:21okay so the most interesting thing Ryan
19:22is like our chat right now is we have
19:24like 50 people who are like uh uh a bit
19:28boy was right he called out FTX uh bit
19:30boy is awesome and then the other half
19:32of the chat is like bit boy's a clown
19:34don't ever talk to him again why can't
19:36you guys talk about something else he
19:37posted a video today where he was just
19:39like
19:41zero remorse for the victims and all
19:43this
19:44was this the one in his bathroom he's
19:47like in a bathroom or something oh he's
19:48like wearing his Gucci suit or yeah
19:51but he was it's one thing to say like I
19:54told you so you're this guy was a
19:56scammer I knew it I had proof that's
19:59fine
20:00but he claimed this like euphoric level
20:03Victory and there are no winners here
20:06yeah bit boy is not a winner here CZ is
20:09not a winner here CZ acknowledges that I
20:11don't know what cc actually feels but
20:13his public stance on it was at least
20:15like fair and and and
20:19reasoned and bitboy's emotions took over
20:22the guy cannot control
20:24his emotions and he cannot recognize the
20:26fact that they're victims
20:28based on these outcomes the outcomes
20:31from his promotions oh I swam down like
20:35the the easiest fastest lane with the
20:38strongest current that I could to make
20:40money I didn't do anything wrong it's
20:42like okay it's the same reason that
20:44Martin shkreli pisses me off the dude
20:46who's like selling pills for 750 a pop
20:49because he could
20:51it doesn't make it right there's an
20:53ethical way to do business and there's
20:55an unethical way to do business and
20:56that's your choice that you have to live
20:58with as an individual yeah and swimming
21:01down the easy Lane for Max profits is in
21:03my opinion
21:05um not not a worthy Choice the theme of
21:082022 perhaps or at least all those
21:11people who do that I I don't I don't
21:14think he went into compression business
21:15to like maliciously steal from a lot of
21:17people but I think when you're making a
21:19lot of money doing a business model
21:22that's probably not great for your users
21:24it's easy to not acknowledge that while
21:28the goings good and maybe even lie to
21:30yourself and say like actually
21:31everyone's winning the Market's going up
21:33everyone's kind of winning yeah there's
21:34some losers
21:36um but we do good due diligence and we
21:37disclose and blah blah blah blah so like
21:39you know whatever the only comical
21:43um the only like really comical part of
21:45this for me is that like
21:47If instead of having FTX as a sponsor
21:49for apparently we just Shield loads of
21:52[ __ ] coins and done like token
21:54promotions a different [ __ ] token
21:55every episode we'd look better now than
21:58we currently do I mean you never know
22:01right sure enough we look like [ __ ]
22:02right now I'm not trying to say we're
22:03done but here's what's crazy it's like
22:06um so you guys have had like one sponsor
22:08consistently bankless has had like many
22:10like we have multiple sponsor slots
22:12right a few handfuls here and like I'm
22:14just like saying it David like we do our
22:16best to select our sponsor and like our
22:20sponsors and we clearly we do not I mean
22:22we turn a ton of sponsors away or like
22:24we're Shady like you're shady you can't
22:27we can't support that but like just law
22:29of numbers in crypto I mean you never
22:31know and it doesn't have to be a a
22:33crypto exchange hack it could be just
22:36like anything somebody wrote some sloppy
22:38smart contract code there was like a
22:41bridge that was flawed there was some
22:43kind of multi-sig that you know was a a
22:47Vector that we didn't realize North
22:49Korea freaking attacked like who knows
22:51what could happen and that is um it's
22:54just a lot of responsibility well it's
22:57the same thing as like why the hell are
22:58we in this industry in the first place
22:59we're in this industry because it's an
23:01industry about money uh so all sponsors
23:04are Downstream of something of that
23:06nature uh there's no way out of that
23:08risk no matter what
23:10guys the chest blowing up about
23:12um yeah we know SBF retweeted Justin's
23:16son we know that that's true I've DM to
23:19just pause the Tweet though is he saying
23:20we're figuring out a way to make Tron
23:24whatever the rest of them are blah blah
23:26blah
23:27holders hall or is he saying they're
23:31playing together a solution to create
23:34all of FTX
23:37um
23:38relief basically
23:40because it's his first time I
23:41announcement to stand behind all Tron
23:43token holders Tron BTT jst Sun HT
23:46holders on FTX we are putting together a
23:49solution forward with FTX to initiate a
23:51pathway forward so like
23:53I don't know why is he just saying like
23:55we're figuring out with them how to make
23:57our own bags good I don't know why SPF
24:00would retweet that if it was just about
24:02Tron and TRX it only makes sense under
24:05the context that Tron and Justin sun is
24:08helping
24:09FTX does it I don't even know anymore
24:12with SPF man uh I don't I don't think
24:15Sam's got control of his Twitter account
24:17anymore uh I think that is that is the
24:20hands of Crisis management team yeah
24:23crisis management do you think Sam had
24:25an emergency escape patch
24:28plan
24:29there's my question is is SPF On The Run
24:33just like everyone else of 2022. it
24:36would be on things this industry's
24:39freaking nuts like so does mine Ledger
24:41like she was just talking about this so
24:44she's like is it dead this time yeah how
24:46are you guys's wives lately
24:48I think sits weird enough that y'all
24:50call me Ledger and that they call
24:52someone named Jordan Kobe and like she's
24:55like what who who and why do y'all do
24:58that and then now I'm like well this guy
25:00is on the run and he came on the podcast
25:02and this guy you definitely know my wife
25:04works in the medical field and like she
25:06hates scarlet and she's like and I was
25:09she watched the show for the first time
25:10ever for to see that clip
25:14um and yeah it's like
25:16it's Mayhem I ran into some people Pat
25:19how are you doing today and I'm like
25:21I'm all right
25:23my industry blew up a little bit over
25:25the last 72 hours I got a little bit I
25:27got totally rugged in terms of what I
25:30thought was true and what was actually
25:31true
25:33um look it's embarrassing it is it's
25:35insane like we live in absolute La La
25:39Land of
25:40Total Insanity where the stakes are
25:43billions of dollars that very few people
25:44can comprehend even the people within
25:46the industry apparently even the people
25:48that are supposed to be the leaders are
25:50freaking morons like taking
25:52extraordinary risk the same risks that
25:55gains he takes you know
25:59they gave smarter than them I would put
26:01Kobe in charge of crypto like just
26:03Capital C crypto country Kobe can be in
26:06charge and he's just a degenerate
26:08Gambler that's been doing it since 2013
26:09and survived it's like this survival
26:12bias survivorship bias so he was damn
26:15good at it he's lived through all this
26:17out and I'm like put the guy in charge
26:19like at least I don't think he's going
26:20to rug everything and steal it all
26:22that's what I find insane I don't know
26:23if you read the multicline investor
26:25letter but they said they had access to
26:28the FTX Q2
26:31balance sheet information as part of
26:32their ongoing due diligence
26:35um and they still lost like what 20 of
26:38assets like assets under management on
26:41the exchange
26:42so like
26:44can they not read a balance sheet or was
26:46the balance sheet wrong like was it like
26:49fictional doctored I think not reading a
26:52balance sheet is definitely something to
26:54be considered that's definitely a
26:55possibility
26:56yeah like maybe right but if you then
26:59write in your investor oh we did the due
27:00diligence we looked at like the Q2 books
27:02and then
27:04investors go look at the Q2 bucks as a
27:06gigantic hole it's not gonna look great
27:09um but it makes me wonder like were they
27:12giving
27:13incorrect books or did the problem
27:14happen afterwards did the books actually
27:16look fine in Q2
27:18um I don't know and if you can have like
27:20in in the proper Insider information and
27:22do like Insider due diligence on
27:25FTX bucks and still
27:28get rugged by FTX
27:30um
27:32I mean that's kind of crazy um
27:35Kobe did you see that Sam said did come
27:38on up only yeah this was on November 7th
27:40he said he'd come on upon me forever ago
27:42well that was that was before uh
27:45basically FTX went to zero I think he
27:47was he was interested in talking to CZ
27:50because he was real real interested in
27:52bending the knees before he actually you
27:55know was exposed naked yeah he was
27:57saying he'd come on up only you know
27:59he's willing to talk saying basically
28:01we're not even acknowledging these
28:03rumors anymore back to business from the
28:05FTX account and it was all a sham in the
28:08background he's trying to raise six
28:09billion dollars to cover the hole Yeah
28:11yeah and then like he's he said to us we
28:13got planned to a group chat with him
28:15after he said he'd come on
28:17um and he was like yeah cool we'll do it
28:19today
28:20on November 7th maybe November on
28:22November 7th or 8th and then
28:25we were like great cool we'll do it this
28:27time
28:28I'll like wake up on time
28:32and then we like get to it and it's like
28:35oh we're actually gonna have to push it
28:36back and then was like the radio silence
28:38right it's like right down to the line
28:40they were just like
28:41like lying about it I'm like oh yeah
28:43we're just it's gonna be fine it's gonna
28:44be fine I'll go do a podcast and say how
28:46everything's fine well that's on the
28:47theme with 2022 like everyone is like
28:49that up until the moment where everyone
28:51realizes that you all have to like show
28:53confidence until the very last moment I
28:56mean but to your to your point Kobe like
28:58so
28:59um I I just looked at the day
29:02um a few hours ago because I couldn't
29:04believe it but it's only 11 days ago
29:06that Voorhees and SBF had this debate in
29:11SPF was lecturing the crypto industry
29:16on regulation yeah
29:20he did a speech in Congress or in I
29:23don't know where you go sit in the
29:25wooden bit
29:26working the government you know like
29:28they're in like a circle and you're sat
29:29there you did that
29:32um and he did a speech about how
29:35like the financial crisis couldn't have
29:37happened because they were like
29:38borrowing and like you know re-borrowing
29:40and blah blah blah whereas everything on
29:42FDX is like that couldn't happen on FTX
29:45and that was last year literally in
29:47Congress like you just went and sat
29:49there and either a lied to Congress
29:51about
29:53um all the [ __ ] or all the problems
29:55happened afterwards
29:57um and maybe
30:00maybe it's just like me being naive
30:02again and being like why would you go
30:04sit in Congress and like intentionally
30:06tell lies to like your government
30:11um
30:13if you just knew they were false it must
30:15have happened later on but man we we saw
30:19the same thing with uh oh I just
30:21uploaded uh that sound just went
30:23straight to the stream we just saw the
30:24same thing with uh three hours Capital
30:25where they were like
30:28um
30:29uh super confident and trying to trying
30:31to talk about how like you know a few
30:33more liquidations than up only uh and
30:36then that was them right and so it's
30:38just an insane amount of projection that
30:41they have to produce that they have to
30:43give because they have to give
30:44confidence right we saw this with with
30:46Alameda the CEO saying like oh yeah
30:48we'll buy all the ftt tokens at 22 you
30:51have to produce confidence uh and so
30:53it's just like an insane amount of
30:54projection that's like required because
30:56that's like one of the last bits of ammo
30:59that they have left to shoot
31:01yeah
31:03I'm uh I'm reading this uh this
31:05multi-coin um
31:07this this multi-coin letter so how down
31:11bad is multi-coin right now
31:14they so they had uh it was like what 10
31:16of assets under management were affected
31:19we're on FTX yeah but then you got to
31:22think about a Solana steak the FDX stake
31:24the soul coins like the the general
31:26thesis was like some coins right
31:29I saw the actual letter but then the
31:32blog post is basically the exact same
31:34thing as the letter like the block the
31:36the one on the on the Block is accurate
31:39um so it should say what the added stuff
31:41is but in terms of percentage of
31:42everything I wouldn't call them wrecked
31:46but like their steak and Solana I mean
31:48they haven't sold enough of it for that
31:49to not be wrecked it's down
31:51tremendously is it crazy to you guys
31:53like I you know all of the
31:56crypto gods of 2021
31:59I mean I think of like the the main ones
32:02like it was it was suzu Carl Davies it
32:04was three hours Capital right and then
32:05it was like uh dokwon right and like uh
32:09definitely Kyle samani multi-coin like
32:11fun of the funny sister Danny says
32:14favorite God that was earlier this year
32:17that he felt but yeah he was a he was a
32:19God in 20 uh 21. um but even people like
32:22Andre cronyier right I mean he's still
32:24kind of active and Phantom all of these
32:26things uh to sponsor up only now too
32:29really
32:32take it and then and then and then the
32:36last one kind of standing was SPF and
32:39um I mean where are they now
32:41like are there any Gods from 2021 still
32:45standing
32:46Justin's son you know he was a god
32:49before God he was God yeah he's one of
32:52the old gods yeah the new gods are dead
32:55New Gods are dead
32:56when did private stop
32:59um 2019
33:015 Edge is kind of like casually chilling
33:03running a [ __ ] exchange with no kyc
33:05just like staying out of the news Cycles
33:08I don't even know what like what is by
33:10bit I don't even know what that is
33:13it's just like FTX except it's like
33:15yellow instead of blue
33:17and it's just no not like registered
33:20anywhere no no identity text no mlkyc no
33:24roads I think it was like
33:28two two
33:30hundred grand 200 Grand a day if you
33:32don't have KFC or something
33:34um I don't know I didn't use it because
33:35it seemed like kind of dodgy and then
33:38um they did a bunch of uh
33:41like token launches with like you know
33:43like the moon Carl
33:45um they helped him launch a token called
33:47Caster
33:49um which like launched all-time high was
33:51on day one and it's just a straight line
33:52downwards ever since like it's never
33:54made it's just like actually just like a
33:56a graph of a straight line diamonds
33:59um
34:02trying to like figure out what the worst
34:04thing in exchange has done
34:07if that's the worst [ __ ] they've done
34:09maybe they're all right maybe they're
34:10one of the better ones I I do wonder if
34:14um
34:14like where do you go now right like FTX
34:17at least had the best
34:19user experience in my opinion from like
34:21the
34:22um website and app point of view not
34:24from the like you don't have any real
34:26money there point of view is that user
34:27experience is very bad
34:29um but yeah that's that's the problem
34:32binance I find really confusing
34:34um coinbase
34:36um is like really slow and
34:39um
34:40like I appreciate coinbase at this point
34:43like at this point for some reason I
34:45feel like some sort of like patriotism
34:46about coinbase well I've also they have
34:49been trying to do cool stuff recently in
34:51the last like
34:53I guess yeah I'm like more so I think
34:57they lost their way a little bit 20 20
34:5821. it kept yeah raising their fees on
35:00the platform where everyone else was
35:02lowering them and like they were not
35:04feeding the product that was good for
35:06Traders right which was coinbase Pro
35:10um they just were doing things that
35:11weren't connected to the community my
35:13critique on coinbase is they hired a ton
35:15of normies to run a crypto business
35:17because they had to because they had to
35:19scale so goddamn fast and they weren't
35:22there weren't enough crypto natives to
35:23hire and they needed to hire faster than
35:25they could find crypto native so they
35:27hired a bunch of normies and
35:29like you you can't make normies care
35:31about crypto so you can't make normies
35:33care about their jobs so they get that
35:35piece but but how come how come FTX
35:37moves so quickly quickly on things
35:39I was attracted because they were
35:42spending all customer deposits
35:44they had a bigger budget yeah I was I
35:48was attracted to platforms and that's
35:49why I liked blockfolio when they reached
35:51out and wanted to figure out a way to
35:52work with them
35:53we got rugged on that like blockfolio
35:56became FTX app became FTA so we we
35:59really didn't opt into FTX it just
36:02became impossible to say what is the FTX
36:04app even but nevertheless
36:07um yeah the hilarious thing is we're
36:08actually sponsored by FTX us that's our
36:11real contract so like a real contract is
36:13block folio Inc right which is that's
36:16right I believe so it's owned by fjx
36:19yeah I don't know I'll ask Brett who
36:23knows
36:24up only did not rug anyone FTX us is
36:28completely solvent but right
36:40the reason I know for real Ed come back
36:43uh so the the thing that I liked about
36:46it was I could tell a normal person in
36:49my life like how do you DCA into crypto
36:51right and yeah recommend this way that's
36:54not got crazy fees when you're trying to
36:57do it
36:58um that gives you a reasonable way to
37:00swap in and out of Majors doesn't have
37:03every [ __ ] coin uh available right away
37:06is not 100x leverage I asked Sam and CZ
37:10the time we did one versus I mean what a
37:13stream
37:14I had technical issues naturally but
37:17like just in in the concept of that and
37:20like my biggest question for them is why
37:22is your default leverage 20x it's
37:24[ __ ] like that is wrong I think it
37:27was 100x then I think the default was
37:2920x and both of them were like it
37:32shouldn't be and yet there it was and I
37:35don't want to tell a regular person to
37:37go to this platform where that's the
37:39default that's on by default you're at
37:42this tremendous risk and I liked the
37:44like Simplicity of connect your bank to
37:47an app get it easily have a Robin Robin
37:50Hood like experience if you will where
37:52the money goes in you do normal things
37:55and Robin Hood not they do it well like
37:57they can buy weekly options without
37:58being accredited uh but it's just it's
38:01just insane like make this stuff simpler
38:03for just onboarding people to products
38:05that aren't Gonna Make You destitute
38:08from your bad gambling habits uh yeah I
38:11think that's why I I where I think
38:13coinbase lost their way a bit around
38:15their IPO was that they seem to start
38:18making decisions that were based on the
38:20share price rather than decisions based
38:22on like the previous coinbase
38:25ethos
38:26um and I think maybe they've gone back
38:29to it a bit now like they've like
38:31launched some tokens for the first time
38:33they've launched like coinbase East
38:34which is like a wrapped staked East
38:37um
38:38like erc20 which is I think the first
38:40token they've ever launched
38:42um and they did like d flat D5 front
38:44ends all within coinbase right so you
38:45can interact with any D5
38:48with that's some that's some real
38:50Innovation the MPC wallet multi-party
38:52computation that's some really cool [ __ ]
38:53that I think a lot of people don't
38:54appreciate
38:55yeah
38:57um but
38:59um for a little while in the middle of
39:00last year or maybe even this year they
39:03were just like releasing like bottom of
39:06the barrel [ __ ] lines that you wouldn't
39:08even find on binets right like really
39:10really like uh let's go
39:15coinbase Ventures backed uh that doesn't
39:18exist anywhere else but here it is the
39:20liquid Marketplace here's a token you've
39:22never heard of before
39:24yeah well I mean it's hard because like
39:28um we need a Fiat on-ramp like we need a
39:31crypto exchange at crypto Bank in order
39:33to actually like start doing this I
39:36think I think like one thing that's
39:38obviously I don't know we've learned
39:40this a number of times this year but
39:42it's just not leaving your funds on an
39:44exchange yeah right to actually go
39:47bankless yeah to actually
39:50and that's look that's a that's a thing
39:52that um I mean I know we learned like
39:55Mount gox long time ago but it's just
39:57like 2022 has just been that's been
40:00hammered into this generation's head
40:02like all of the things that have
40:05happened we know not to leave our funds
40:07on an exchange right
40:09um
40:11but but well but that's the other thing
40:13is um I do think that you know crypto
40:16hasn't done a good enough job making the
40:18user experience easy so I still can't
40:20tell a norm back to your comment of like
40:22Ledger a normie getting into crypto you
40:25can't be like freaking like and here's a
40:28wallet and here's you know uh by this
40:30Hardware wallet you know 24 words and if
40:32you remember them if you forget them
40:34you're dead you lose all of your money
40:36like yeah the user experience just
40:38hasn't really caught up
40:44Chrome those metamask Chrome Ledger
40:47Converse uh combo has been rugging me
40:49for like a year in a row now really he
40:51knows a lot better you know the wallet
40:52that impresses me continuously small
40:55it's crappy uh maybe good maybe not but
40:57from a user experience perspective is
40:59Rainbow wallet yeah
41:01um yeah I'm talking with Mike mcdermis
41:02next week yeah you need like look you
41:05need to be able to it may not be
41:07everybody's preferred thing but you back
41:09up your uh wallet to like an iCloud type
41:12service or something and you you've uh
41:15do the face thing for your
41:17authentication and like you're you're
41:20rocking and you're rolling maybe that's
41:22your hot wallet maybe you have another
41:23way that's more secure whatever whatever
41:24like but you need it as easy as some of
41:27your mobile apps but you have the
41:29self-custody components still involved
41:31and I just think they make things easy
41:34that it gets hard at times and then
41:36you're like having to import your
41:37Rainbow wallet to metamask and you know
41:40so that you can do a transaction with
41:41say not to cancel the transaction blah
41:43blah blah but it's we need more apps
41:45that are trying that right that are
41:46really trying to be consumer level
41:49so deep irony is if you
41:53stored your coins on
41:57FDX you lost them no your keys no other
42:00coins if you start them in a hot wallet
42:03you got your board ape stolen by someone
42:05sending you a link on Discord if you
42:08bought a hardware wallet delete your
42:10address to the entire internet so now
42:13people can come steal your Hardware
42:14wallet and beat you up like there is no
42:18good path the best person to just stick
42:20everything on binance and go yeah
42:21whatever they're the biggest exchange if
42:23they go down it's all dead anyway
42:26um so
42:27I they really wasn't like a good thing
42:30and like didn't both Hardware wallets
42:31have data breaches or something went
42:33wrong with both uh with treasure too
42:36this is I don't know this is where the
42:37horcrux method becomes mandatory what's
42:40that yeah
42:42spray and pray your assets across a
42:44number of different uh like centralized
42:46oh yeah put it put it in coinbase put it
42:49on your Legend seven Souls seven places
42:52did you not read the books come on man
42:55you put a lightning bolt on your head
42:57and you're like every kid at the movies
43:01laughs
43:06Ryan were you ever Harry Potter for
43:08Halloween
43:09uh I was never Harry Potter for
43:11Halloween yeah
43:13another glasses um I'm sad that the
43:16legend before I realized it yeah
43:19Legend you've become bit boy
43:22his glasses broke nice glasses Harry
43:25Potter
43:29oh man he did apologize for that thanks
43:33thanks well we kind of made him
43:36yeah that was the whole purpose of that
43:40the staple I come to bank list and say
43:42sorry maybe it's cracking maybe kraken's
43:45like the last
43:47um The Last Hope like they always just
43:49seem to be in the background chilling
43:50trying to do the right thing they have
43:51like the only massive exchange with
43:53proof of reserves
43:55um like Merkle tree cryptographic proof
43:58reserves
43:59um
44:00well they seem like generally very
44:01misaligned I know um Jay power just left
44:05um as he remains like an advisor or
44:07something but
44:08um you know they seem decent I mean
44:12that's just like uh Kraken Gemini
44:14binance coinbase
44:17okay coin
44:19oh I didn't even know it gets it gets
44:21off of my I'm too too far off the Donald
44:24list of the long tail are we worried
44:26about the Winkle the the like and the
44:28travel traveling band
44:31I don't I haven't seen their band
44:32playing it in a while
44:34though
44:37yeah on Instagram yeah I didn't actually
44:40see it yeah they're in New York
44:45[Laughter]
44:55for like college kids at least they're
44:58not in DC
45:00lying to Congress yeah
45:03even larger enemy okay the thing is
45:06right
45:07if
45:10if you had like a decent actor go to DC
45:12and try and mediate things
45:15I'm sure that is a better strategy than
45:17like [ __ ] nothing right no one in the
45:19industry talks to them we all just try
45:20and hide surely
45:22a good actor who is being sensible and
45:25fighting for the right type of like
45:27stuff that the industry needs is a good
45:29thing
45:30but the worst possible outcome is that
45:33the person doing it taking photos with
45:36them like taking photos of the head of
45:38the cftc and like members of Congress
45:41and all this [ __ ]
45:42then turns out to be running a Ponzi
45:45scheme exchange now they all go this guy
45:48made me look stupid
45:50at my job
45:52so we must crush him in return we can't
45:54look they like we accepted money from
45:56him we can't look like weak and corrupt
45:58we now need to like retaliate severely
46:01yep
46:02surely that's significantly worse than
46:05just doing nothing I mean guys he
46:07donated 70 million dollars to political
46:10campaigns customer deposits yeah of
46:14customers closets it may be more than
46:16that you know right Ryan Ryan who
46:18apparently was left in the dark and all
46:20this Ryan's salaam or however you
46:21pronounce it celkis are you talking
46:23about it no no no no no no no number two
46:25at FTS be like just think of Sam think
46:28of the absolute opposite and that's Ryan
46:41so I'm getting an IV as a hangover cure
46:44and okay in Miami like a like frat boy
46:48type of guy okay all right
46:50um apparently he was left in the dark
46:51and all this but he was profiled as well
46:54as Sam because his spouse is running ran
46:57for congress I don't know if she won or
46:58not
46:59um but he donated like 25 million
47:02dollars to Republican causes he was like
47:05a top five Republican donor while Sam
47:08was a number two or whatever Democratic
47:10donor they're both from FTX they both
47:12like
47:13whether Ryan I don't it doesn't appear
47:16that Ryan is care it really seems like a
47:18very small number of people at FTX were
47:20aware of this like I've had employees
47:21reach out to me like I'm in the dark
47:23they're helping me with support tickets
47:25for people trying to get money off FTX
47:26us because it's crazy but Ryan was also
47:30a large contributor to Republican
47:32because they were some of the biggest
47:33players in this world of politicians
47:36giving money on both sides it's it's not
47:39good all right let me ask you guys like
47:41a crazy like uh Joe Rogan type of
47:44question here it's like what are the
47:46chances that you do a Joe Rogan voice
47:48yeah I can't do it Joe Rogan voice
47:52up
47:56what are the chances that this like SPF
48:01was a plant
48:02I mean all this to your point Kobe
48:04seemed like so scripted
48:07all right like this whole industry is
48:09crypted they were all in the simulation
48:11where did he come from I mean he rises
48:13from nowhere 2018 2019 builds did come
48:17from nowhere the fastest growing
48:19Exchange in the world how how did he go
48:22from zero to what like 22 billion
48:24dollars how did that happen how did he
48:26infiltrate DC and become like the
48:29spokesperson for [ __ ] for crypto and D5
48:31right and now after he's earned the
48:34trust of all the politicians the whole
48:37thing turns out to be smoke and mirrors
48:39right like industry wrecked like I I
48:43don't know what happens in the wake of
48:44this
48:45is there like any chance in your in your
48:47minds that there's something something
48:50the only thing that adds credibility to
48:52it is these parents are like deeply
48:54right
48:57he turbo his parents yeah and like his
49:01mom like created like some like get out
49:03to vote Coalition or some [ __ ]
49:06um which means his mum's Hillary Clinton
49:08and
49:11you know like I I
49:14think it's like probably not true but I
49:17thought that God it was probably not
49:19true that they were insolvent so
49:22what is reality anymore the chat is
49:25convinces uh CIA so I think it's much
49:28more likely that he had a really fast
49:30growing exchange okay okay okay maybe
49:33it's this
49:34he had an exchange it was really fast
49:36growing totally by like a mix of like
49:39luck and aggression like you know if
49:42you're willing to trade customer
49:43deposits maybe you're willing to be a
49:45bit more aggressive on stuff that other
49:47people aren't and like that sort of
49:48insanity or psychopathy um translates
49:51into like business success
49:54um at some point you [ __ ] up and had
49:55this hole in the balance sheet but like
49:57you can't tell your parents can you
49:58they'll be so disappointed but they're
50:00[ __ ] up really badly so he's like
50:03political Elite parents are going like
50:05you should go to Congress and you should
50:07talk you should donate to these guys you
50:08should donate to these guys yeah they
50:09were telling them crypto in the first
50:11place yeah like yes Mom yes Dad I'll
50:14definitely do that and like in the back
50:16of his mind it's like [ __ ] I like well
50:18all he wants to do is make his parents
50:20proud you just can't tell them that he's
50:22got and that's why it's snowballed out
50:24of control because he was he was mommy
50:27issues how old do you think SPF is it's
50:29possible
50:31he's under 30 right like 20 must be
50:34about 30. he's exactly 30 years old he's
50:37born in March 1992. um how old is
50:39vitalik like 28.
50:44did you see the tweet that metallic
50:46posted it made me so sad so he like um
50:48replied to someone like sbf's net worth
50:51plummeting to like one billion dollars
50:54yeah and vitalik replied and just said
50:56that is much more than that is still
50:58much more than I have and that was the
51:00only words of the tweet and I was like
51:0595 to a billion dollars
51:08one billion dollars great this is SPF
51:10not because I don't really know what
51:12effective altruism means but I feel like
51:13vitalik embodies that much more yeah
51:16effective altruism means I've read the
51:18book I read the book when I was in
51:19university or maybe after University
51:21went in my early 20s or something
51:24um and parts of it are like extremely
51:26enticing and I could understand the
51:29attraction to the book right because it
51:30tells you stories about
51:34um
51:35uh certain charity initiatives
51:38throughout history that were basically
51:40completely ineffective and it gives the
51:42example of something called the water
51:44wheel which was a apparently in the Bush
51:47Administration ERA this huge
51:51um uh uh popular initiative to like help
51:55um like poor countries in parts of
51:58Africa have access to clean water
52:00um and they went and they removed loads
52:02of these hand pumps these water hand
52:03pumps and they put these like
52:06um like these big wheels that you push
52:08around in
52:10um but it turned out if you pushed the
52:12wheel constantly for 24 hours you got
52:14about
52:1518 hours worth of water because this
52:18wheel was like completely ineffective
52:19and
52:21um like like they hated using this wheel
52:24it was like demoralizing and degrading
52:26it was like a like a playground item to
52:28push around
52:29um but all of the uh like I think it was
52:33the first lady was like all in on this
52:35initiative going and like taking photos
52:36with these water wheels saying look
52:38we're saving
52:39um we're saving the poor countries like
52:41America round yes song the chapter said
52:43we're saving the poor countries but in
52:45practice they were just burning money
52:47making things worse and not helping and
52:49that was an example of like ineffective
52:51altruism where people get excited by how
52:55by the cause of like I'm going to look
52:58so great solving this problem that like
53:00is emotional and another example is like
53:02plastic in the ocean where it's
53:05everyone's favorite topic so so there's
53:09so much money being poured into it that
53:10it becomes like used ineffectively and
53:13the most effective like reduction of
53:16suffering was really unsexy stuff like
53:19deworming of children
53:21um in like parts of the world where like
53:23if you dewormed kids uh like like there
53:27was a 50 increase in people classic
53:28passing school and then that policy paid
53:33for itself within three years because
53:36the tax dollars from the people that
53:38were going to the workforce from this
53:40initiative would then pay itself off
53:43um and there's this buck that like kind
53:44of says so you should focus on like
53:46impact with with doing good you
53:48shouldn't focus on what feels good you
53:50should focus on like actual reduction of
53:51suffering but the book The the book gets
53:55a little bit strange in that will ask
53:58her the guy who writes it
54:01uses this like logic to go into the
54:04argument that actually
54:07therefore the best way you can reduce
54:09suffering is to go work at Goldman Sachs
54:11steal everyone's money and use that
54:15money in the most effective ways for
54:17reducing human suffering because if you
54:19go work a charity you're doing a small
54:21amount whereas if you steal or if you
54:23acquire multi-billions and then use them
54:25really effectively you're actually
54:27reducing human suffering by a lot more
54:29with your life with your like
54:32um with your time because you're good at
54:34making money in Wall Street exactly you
54:36make money and then you use that really
54:38effectively
54:39chapter on not blowing up in the process
54:42and yeah and like that is a that's
54:44exactly what that's the Playbook SPF
54:47read this book and was ignored all the
54:48bits about like human suffering and was
54:50like okay gotta make 30 billion dollars
54:54um reduce human suffering by stealing
54:57everyone's money great let's go
54:59um but genuinely it's it's it's quite a
55:04good book
55:05um
55:07the uh the whole effect of altruism was
55:10like Guillotine insurance it's like oh
55:12yeah you just liquidated all of the
55:14industry but you have this Banner of
55:16effective are you talking about you're
55:17talking about for SPF yeah yeah you're
55:21not talking about like like speaking
55:23effective altruism like conceptually I'm
55:25I'm like a big fan I mean that makes
55:27sense well it got SBS podcast deworming
55:30like Yeah well yeah yeah I I refuse I
55:35refuse to
55:38accept that process doesn't matter right
55:41like I think like how you make the money
55:43do you mean yes
55:46I think process matters if you say like
55:50there's a like Biblical reference if you
55:52give someone a dollar and what do they
55:54do with it you give someone a hundred
55:55dollars or a thousand dollars what do
55:56they do with it shekels or something but
55:58you know what I'm saying like what you
56:00do with the dollar is going to reflect
56:02what you're going to do with a thousand
56:03of them or a million of them and if you
56:06say like I will do good work
56:09just give me lots and lots of money in
56:11whatever way is possible
56:14and then I'll do good with it
56:16you you need to do good along the way
56:19you need to show that you can be
56:21responsible with the resources that
56:23you've been
56:25um entrusted with along the way to then
56:28be entrusted with the resources when
56:30they're larger
56:31I refuse to believe that just get it all
56:34while it's hot in whatever way possible
56:36and then do good later you just won't
56:38yeah yeah yeah yeah no I like that a lot
56:42yeah I do agree I do agree that it is
56:45like he sort of I think he read this
56:47book called doing good better and then
56:49sort of used it as a shield as like I
56:53can't be evil because look at what I'm
56:56doing on the other side and like took
56:58the like most perverted just like the
57:00most perverted way you can read the book
57:02and go
57:04okay that makes me a good person that
57:06justifies the stuff I'm doing because
57:08that buck says it's the like best way to
57:11reduce human suffering or whatever
57:13um
57:14I reckon uh the dude that wrote that box
57:17in complete shambles he's like his life
57:19life's work it's like been made of
57:20mockery
57:21I mean as specifically because of SPF
57:25he's his personal advisor for a bit oh
57:28wow
57:29you know the dude that was texting Elon
57:32on his behalf
57:33was the dude who wrote the book
57:37so like SBF was a poster child for the
57:39effective altruism movement but every
57:41article was about that's like the whole
57:43PR strategy was effective also yeah and
57:45I mean anything that was like actually
57:47decent in that book is just like wrecked
57:49Now by association I think David was uh
57:51you were always skeptical and I see yeah
57:54I was like all right like I used to be
57:55like but like but like he he hasn't said
57:57he'd do it right now he's still in kind
57:59of the phase Kobe you were talking about
58:00earlier where he's like like at Goldman
58:02Sachs making all the money right and I'm
58:05like David you can't you can't call him
58:07out on not giving it away yet because
58:09it's always been a strategy to make the
58:11most money possible and then to give it
58:13away later right super convenient like
58:16process to go back to to letters point
58:19is like yeah you you need to do good
58:21with one dollar and then do good with
58:22ten dollars and then do good with 100
58:23because you get you get to pre-mind all
58:25the glory right
58:26when we were talking about this on the
58:28weekly roll up I was like yeah I also
58:30plan to commit to not give away 99.9 of
58:34my wealth like I will also do that
58:40[Laughter]
58:42[Music]
58:44did this
58:46he's like he didn't didn't laugh about
58:48it in advance like in Infinity he
58:49actually did it he actually he actually
58:51did that
58:52well you don't remember it was a couple
58:54years ago he transferred like half of
58:55his wealth into an entity that would oh
58:58yeah right grants away and he picked the
59:01causes and there's like a API that you
59:04can or an RSS feed or something you can
59:06pull you know if you go look at it just
59:07every few days he's like we gave two two
59:11million dollars here we gave two million
59:12dollars here and like they're all they
59:14all look great this is the cards about
59:16all the time you put it on posters
59:17around this is the cardano problem right
59:19like Jack just did it it was news for a
59:21day and then it was done the cardano
59:24thing is like yeah we're gonna have
59:25Smart contracts we're gonna have Smart
59:27contract we're gonna have Smart we're
59:28gonna have Smart contracts and then it's
59:31like so disappointing if and when they
59:33ever occur right but you talked about it
59:36all that time you implanted it yeah the
59:38person that just does it
59:40it's forgotten right like you said that
59:43I had to be reminded that Jack was just
59:45actually
59:47you're right it's kind of the way it
59:49should be but by the way speaking of
59:50Charles uh you know he popped up in my
59:52timeline earlier today I'm so sorry yeah
59:54he said this this is his comments on
59:56things um just on some twid uh some
59:59thread criticizing SPF and um somebody
1:00:03tweets out and he says uh at least you
1:00:05found the real villain before you can
1:00:07give uh Charles Hodgkin's in credit for
1:00:09being actual good billionaire calling
1:00:11Charles an actual good billionaire and
1:00:13Charles jumps in it's really amazing the
1:00:14level of bile and criticism that I've
1:00:16gotten throughout the years been almost
1:00:1810 years waiting on the great Charles
1:00:19Hoskins and criminal Scandal but please
1:00:22tell me all about Laura's new book you
1:00:24know for Charles it's always uh it's
1:00:27always about Charles it's always about
1:00:28Charles
1:00:29I don't know I didn't no one expected a
1:00:31child's criminal Scandal did they no
1:00:33because that would mean that he would
1:00:35actually do something
1:00:37well I mean he does things David they
1:00:40had a great booth in fact this is an
1:00:42official statement from huobi
1:00:44um that they will help TRX holders on
1:00:47FTX with one to one can anyone find this
1:00:53TRX orders apparently well from this
1:00:56oh thank God the TRX holders get bailed
1:00:59out fantastic wait wait TRX holders Tron
1:01:02holders isn't that if you have CRX on
1:01:05SPF all right sorry
1:01:09abbreviation RSA
1:01:14um I can't see any official statement
1:01:16about it but uh is that the thing is
1:01:19that the thing that um Justin's son was
1:01:22I'm excited about
1:01:24oh my God have you seen the picture of
1:01:28Justin's son's face Photoshop front of
1:01:31Superman saving a baby
1:01:34um that was posted by the Hawaii
1:01:35Exchange in response to Justin Justin
1:01:37created it
1:01:39Justin Justin's own exchange was he was
1:01:42like put my face on
1:01:45and the baby oh he's not a baby it's
1:01:47like a toddler or something but the
1:01:49toddler looks really uncomfortable you
1:01:51gotta admit in terms of interviews we've
1:01:53done we've never given we've never given
1:01:55somebody so much direct heat and they
1:01:59just roll with it and he's like Justin's
1:02:02son yeah yeah and then you guys that
1:02:04talk to Justin's son yeah he was amazing
1:02:06yeah he was incredible incredible
1:02:08amazing Kobe was like
1:02:11he was confronting him about sleeping
1:02:14with someone's wife or something like
1:02:16that and he just said something how did
1:02:19you know about this no no there was a
1:02:21saga and it was the May 2021 crash where
1:02:25there was this rumor that they were
1:02:27trying to liquidate someone was trying
1:02:28to liquidate Justin sun and chain
1:02:30because he'd slept with their wife so it
1:02:31was like some crypto whale's wife and so
1:02:34with Justin son or something this is
1:02:35rumor it was like obviously just like a
1:02:37meme rumor that someone come up with
1:02:39um but he came on and we like asked him
1:02:42about it quite early on in the show and
1:02:45he was just like laughing and was like
1:02:47yeah it's true yeah I can't tell you how
1:02:49wired head written wired had written
1:02:52this like 10 000 word article some
1:02:55journalists spent two months on this and
1:02:57just his son quote tweets it and it's
1:02:59like LOL
1:03:06he just it's the full Embrace of the
1:03:09stupidity of our space and he just makes
1:03:11billions guys I remember Vincent
1:03:13ethereum clone makes billions keeps his
1:03:15billions 20 in 2018 I thought like
1:03:17Justin's son was like the peak scammer
1:03:20like they were a scammer this industry
1:03:22and now I'm looking at any scammer of
1:03:25this yeah and I'm like this guy I mean
1:03:27he seems like
1:03:28like an angel no one no one truly hates
1:03:31him and I I think it's not just because
1:03:34it was like like
1:03:36if like the time the the time since your
1:03:39transgression is long enough people
1:03:40don't care right like CZ was the biggest
1:03:42villain in crypto for such a long time
1:03:45in like it's the victim of my day it's
1:03:47the victimless crime totally yeah well
1:03:50CZ and Justin Sun were working together
1:03:52like kind of in the in the back alley to
1:03:54do token promotion stuff on binance
1:03:56right
1:03:59like the Tron white paper was like parts
1:04:02of it was just copy pasted of the
1:04:03ethereum white paper the ipfs outside
1:04:05yeah yeah
1:04:07um and you know like did an Ico raise
1:04:10billion dollars or however many however
1:04:12much
1:04:13um and then just chilled but because
1:04:16like he's now just chilling and having a
1:04:18nice time people just go oh that was
1:04:19ages ago he doesn't need to scammers
1:04:21anymore and he's kind of entertaining
1:04:22he's like well he's we've also
1:04:24completely redefined to a much worse
1:04:27degree what a scammer is like the
1:04:29scammers have gotten worse they've got
1:04:31they've gotten worse yeah yeah yeah well
1:04:34is it isn't isn't Justin's son like he's
1:04:36like a huge like whale right I mean he's
1:04:38like he's like 10x still subscribed to
1:04:41his wallet I'm gonna find it right all
1:04:43right doesn't he like rumor is okay
1:04:45sorry Ryan how old do you think Justin
1:04:48sun is
1:04:49um I'm looking at the Superman photo
1:04:51he's looking pretty pretty good pretty
1:04:53young
1:04:54I'm gonna I'm also gonna say uh 30.
1:04:59oh is he is he 30 yeah 30. he's 32 32.
1:05:03the oldest one I've mentioned so far
1:05:06also right like he yeah he did like uh
1:05:09he did an ICA for some chain which is
1:05:11just an ethereum clone and it's not
1:05:12super
1:05:14um
1:05:15like no remarkably interesting to me
1:05:17it's a copy pasted white like the white
1:05:19paper was copy pasted the chain was copy
1:05:22pasted the whole thing yeah but then
1:05:23like you know they moved to proof of
1:05:24stake and did a bunch of stuff and then
1:05:26their fees are always insanely low he
1:05:28kept working it this whole time and now
1:05:29it's like the biggest chain for like
1:05:31tether or something it's like the
1:05:32biggest chain for like USD payments so
1:05:35they actually carved out a niche and
1:05:37create a bunch of values and it's like
1:05:39well you know yeah if you build
1:05:41something of value even if the
1:05:43beginnings of it were
1:05:45not um incredibly honorable people
1:05:47forget is that actually a scam yeah it
1:05:50kind of grew into legitimacy he uh his
1:05:54default his main defy wallet it only has
1:05:56like 250 million in it now but it had
1:05:58like a billion plus two billion three
1:06:01bucks it doesn't doesn't he have more
1:06:03Ethan vitalik yes he does oh yeah he's
1:06:06he's unbelievably more Ethan vitalik
1:06:08multi-billionaire well because the talk
1:06:10only gives away money he doesn't earn
1:06:12anymore Justin's a multi-billionaire on
1:06:14such a pretty mine well just on channel
1:06:17So Justin's also quite good at trading I
1:06:20don't know if you like followed his like
1:06:21like macro directional stuff but he
1:06:24generally buys the body and sells close
1:06:26to the top
1:06:27um like he sold all of his ethereum at
1:06:29like four four
1:06:31um around this time last year yeah
1:06:33that'd be nice I don't know
1:06:39is the first time I've actually bought
1:06:41bottoms
1:06:42well you don't know this is about it
1:06:44yeah yeah I bought I bought it eight
1:06:47eight seven eight ninety seven I feel
1:06:49pretty damn good about that that's not
1:06:51bad
1:06:52so um yeah Justin Justin was came on the
1:06:55show and he was talking about his D5
1:06:57movements and his location he's like oh
1:06:59I was actually asleep when that was
1:07:01going on I was like well you had a
1:07:02thousand dollar margin at risk because
1:07:04he was like farming crap left and right
1:07:05he's like yeah that's when I hired
1:07:07somebody to actually make sure that I'm
1:07:08like managing stuff because before that
1:07:11it was just managing billions on like
1:07:14Leverage defy yield Farms YOLO and the
1:07:17crap out of the whole thing so fun fact
1:07:20uh Tron is now worth more than Solana
1:07:24that makes me sad really that makes me
1:07:27sad good deal for Solana I mean what's
1:07:30the price
1:07:31I have I am now bucks uh chill with
1:07:35Solana where previously I was less not
1:07:38no tron's number 16 slams number 13. FTV
1:07:42or not I'm on uh coin gecko sorry guys
1:07:45I'm I'm Boomer Queen prices
1:07:48holy crap in three and a half four and a
1:07:50half hours
1:07:51uh low of 11 46 to 15 12 11.
1:07:5811. where are you looking
1:08:00I don't know let me see that it's kind
1:08:02of crazy that Tron and BNB are also
1:08:04based on the same tanks yeah I have to
1:08:06change all my trading hours they're all
1:08:08FTX anymore they're it's literally fake
1:08:11fake Internet money over there screw you
1:08:13Sam like honestly you gotta make me
1:08:16change my trading views
1:08:17well Industries has to re reconfigure
1:08:20itself uh trading view come on make the
1:08:22indexes we need more indexes
1:08:26uh Solana gonna get hit harder I think
1:08:28some unlocks coming yeah on the Pike too
1:08:31I don't know somebody came in and did
1:08:33like they changed some delegator thing
1:08:35today did they wasn't okay so when when
1:08:37three hours Capital got liquidated that
1:08:40was the bottom like it was the bottom
1:08:41within like 24 to 48 hours of the big
1:08:44news like spreading throughout crypto
1:08:46Twitter and everyone uh being worried
1:08:48about contagion oh contagion's coming
1:08:49contagion coming turns out now the
1:08:51bottom was right then and there so like
1:08:53that's if we're gonna repeat that like
1:08:55I'm not a Trader but like my gutake is
1:08:58that the bottom of the prices is going
1:09:00to be happening the day of the worst
1:09:02news which is FTX being insolvent that's
1:09:05my quick day don't tell me you're not a
1:09:07Trader you I I gotta go to our direct
1:09:09messages
1:09:10trustless is he giving you trading I was
1:09:14good trading on the way up Tuesday
1:09:18one of my most
1:09:20severe regrets because at the time I
1:09:23actually had a bunch of money on binance
1:09:24us where manic existed right and my DM
1:09:28February 15 2021 I do not want to time
1:09:31stamp the price all caps Matic and I was
1:09:35like screw you here's it 20 cents at the
1:09:38moment or I think even like 11. it was
1:09:4011 cents I stopped out at 10 cents
1:09:44I was like all right David let's roll
1:09:46baby stop out at 10 cents goes two
1:09:48dollars
1:09:51I was really mad at you sorry buddy yeah
1:09:55anyway
1:09:56I forget what I was trying to bring up
1:09:58there and bring back pain
1:10:00David uh you are a Trader man you called
1:10:04the um you called a Solana bottom I
1:10:07think on our Tuesday live streaming God
1:10:11I did that doesn't sound like me yeah I
1:10:14just I I re-listened to that part of the
1:10:16episode good for me the problem was
1:10:19what's in the bottom
1:10:20[Laughter]
1:10:23problem with Solana is that you still
1:10:26have all these like liquidity issues
1:10:29people that can always fall back on what
1:10:32they have vesting in swanna to just get
1:10:34rid of it and you have the three dollar
1:10:37I'll buy all you want mean right which
1:10:39is strong right right it really
1:10:42those those things look they got to be
1:10:45magnets right totally and I think so I
1:10:48think Solana is like very well
1:10:49positioned to be The Ether of the last
1:10:52cycle because like 8th of last cycle had
1:10:54all this Ico cell pressure like at a
1:10:57mountain of Ico cell pressure never
1:10:58never mind consensus and Joe Lubin and
1:11:01that's Solana of this cycle where they
1:11:03have
1:11:04all of the insane investor lockups and
1:11:07just the dumpage from FTX and all the
1:11:09associated three dollars this is exactly
1:11:1199 off the top and you know that's going
1:11:13to be juicy in some ways you've got to
1:11:15imagine that
1:11:17um
1:11:18the Solana Founders feel very
1:11:21Bittersweet about this FTX
1:11:23stuff because obviously they you know
1:11:25it's horrible for the industry and
1:11:28um
1:11:29like bad for them reputationally because
1:11:32Solana was kind of like the Sam coin the
1:11:35Sam coin that enabled all other Sam
1:11:37coins
1:11:38um in a way it was the uh
1:11:42like Sam was sort of the poster boy for
1:11:44Solana yeah the OG Sim coin
1:11:46but at the same time
1:11:49the removal of that narrative can only
1:11:53be good for Solana in the future right
1:11:54like right yes if you're in three years
1:11:58and like you still have FTX looming
1:11:59overview as Sam leaning over you as the
1:12:01like the biggest thing about your chain
1:12:05yeah this just like removes it as a
1:12:07problem for them and sure maybe there's
1:12:09a lot of FDX owned Solana that needs to
1:12:11get sold and maybe it was you know all
1:12:14that stuff and there's maybe ongoing
1:12:17um reputational
1:12:19damage but at least it's like
1:12:22out of the way it's behind you and you
1:12:24can move on and like Solana can do its
1:12:25own thing and like try and build its own
1:12:27sort of um future without being
1:12:31like cross-pollinated with FTX and sound
1:12:34SPF stuff one of the biggest bits of
1:12:36fight of Seoul is the concentrated
1:12:38ownership by all the VCS so if we can
1:12:40get it out of their hands it's the same
1:12:42thing as like ether back with all the
1:12:44concentrated Ico ownership what what has
1:12:47what has more multiples upside with
1:12:51eth-like development mode
1:12:54then Solana especially if you get it
1:12:57three bucks right three to Thirty is a
1:13:0010x that's that's that's a thousand to
1:13:02ten thousand dollar each where we're
1:13:04gonna be like
1:13:06our eyeballs are gonna be bleeding all
1:13:09four of us if Keith goes to ten thousand
1:13:11like we're just gonna be unbelievably
1:13:13euphoric so okay so two thousand so
1:13:16that's Solana three to three three to
1:13:17Thirty is the same thing so when you're
1:13:19looking at that relative pair if you get
1:13:21three dollars you just
1:13:24you just
1:13:25Buckle in and you buy Solana at three
1:13:28dollars right I don't I don't so uh when
1:13:31ether capitulated down to eighty dollars
1:13:33that was a eight billion dollar market
1:13:36cap for ethereum Solana right now is at
1:13:39a five and a half billion dollar market
1:13:40cap I touched five earlier today uh so
1:13:43we're already like if you want to
1:13:45compare these things uh one cycle apart
1:13:47like we're all right this one is almost
1:13:49like half of what ether was last cycle
1:13:52I'm not saying that's a lot of potential
1:13:54yeah it's highs of life cycle and much
1:13:57higher than Salinas highs of this cycle
1:13:59though right like if if life cycle went
1:14:03crazy because of the Ico stuff but it
1:14:04was like very deeply used for something
1:14:06and it was used for something for the
1:14:07first time and like maybe that thing was
1:14:09an illegal fundraising platform but it
1:14:12was like there's product Market fit for
1:14:14smart contract chains here to do
1:14:16something
1:14:18um whereas
1:14:21um
1:14:21by the proof of proving point for Solana
1:14:23is like what the price went up a lot and
1:14:26like
1:14:27I mean personally for like for me I I've
1:14:29never been uh bullish on Solana like
1:14:32probably you know to my uh like uh you
1:14:35know would have been nice to buy three
1:14:36but
1:14:38um there is a price at which I am
1:14:40bullish on Solana but for me it's not
1:14:43this for me it's closer to three no it's
1:14:46not 15. it's closer to three like so
1:14:49right now Solana 2 another way to look
1:14:51at it is it's off 94 for all time high
1:14:54which is basically what eth traced last
1:14:58uh yeah last cycle right down uh 94 I
1:15:03still think it's got a ways to draw it
1:15:04before this is fully washed out there's
1:15:06a big yellow box on my chart from
1:15:09three to four
1:15:11which was the high of uh 22 September
1:15:142020.
1:15:15yeah
1:15:17it's basically the whole Gap up from Sam
1:15:19coin
1:15:20Fame
1:15:21yeah I mean that I mean that really
1:15:24propelled it that was Rocket Fuel and so
1:15:26we gotta go we gotta go back
1:15:29so we have to go back we gotta go back
1:15:31before we can go forward yeah I think
1:15:33it's the coin of Last Resort for too
1:15:35many people still I think that's fair
1:15:37I do agree though David like you know it
1:15:40does have an ecosystem of Builders right
1:15:42there is a real Community there that's
1:15:44Network effects Network effects the most
1:15:46powerful thing in crypto Bitcoins
1:15:47actually draining Network effects right
1:15:49now and eth and Solana are building them
1:15:52Salon is building them faster than eth
1:15:54is the dominant
1:15:56has the dominant Network effects in the
1:15:59ecosystem
1:16:00dude Bitcoin Bitcoin Community is
1:16:02divided once again
1:16:06bitcoin's got big problems man Bitcoin
1:16:09has got big problems that's for sure
1:16:11yeah yeah we've all got big problems
1:16:22ethereum D5 for all of 2022 has felt
1:16:25like the world is just ripping apart
1:16:27around me and me and all my little eth
1:16:29friends are on this tiny little like
1:16:31Oasis like watching an ethereum defile
1:16:33Oasis and Oasis we went straight
1:16:36downwards for the previous like two and
1:16:38a half years well yeah but everything
1:16:40else broke Kobe like everything else
1:16:42you're talking about defy token price
1:16:44which is no no no I'm talking about just
1:16:47like The Ether that I have in the apps
1:16:49that I have it in it's like yeah the
1:16:51price is going down but they're still
1:16:53functioning as designed meanwhile Solana
1:16:56is halting meanwhile FTX is insolvent
1:16:59meanwhile three arrows Capital like
1:17:01nuked everything and so like yeah like
1:17:03we're down bad in correlation with the
1:17:06market but like I still have my ether
1:17:09if you get David drunk enough you're the
1:17:11only person I know that says ether
1:17:14I've been saying ether since 81 yeah but
1:17:16you are right I am I'm one of the few
1:17:17people that says that yeah
1:17:19I say it too it surprises me that eth is
1:17:21down relative to BTC this week like it
1:17:23it doesn't feel that way because just
1:17:25the relative price of bitcoin's been
1:17:27dancing in the 1516 case and eth is over
1:17:31a thousand dollars it just feels
1:17:32stronger but it's actually down on the
1:17:34week I feel like if we were back in last
1:17:36cycle uh the the fact that each BTC is
1:17:39performing so well is very indicative
1:17:42strength yeah yeah exactly eth is down
1:17:4676 percent
1:17:48uh all-time high Bitcoin is down uh 77
1:17:52that is insane I mean it makes sense now
1:17:55because I I believe in ethereum's
1:17:56fundamentals but like if you compared
1:17:58this to last cycle
1:17:59that that was unheard of
1:18:02Kobe's in his mind drafting tweets from
1:18:04this Bitcoin Maxi alt account
1:18:07are you still a Believer Max the whole
1:18:10account for a while I've got 100 000
1:18:11followers now it's my favorite thing to
1:18:13write on
1:18:16I'm beloved I'm beloved in my community
1:18:18somebody Kobe who was it who was it that
1:18:21did the Tweet of like Kobe wakes up and
1:18:24picks up his mask for the day and puts
1:18:25it on like it's the truest tweet I've
1:18:27ever seen of you
1:18:28you know for a little while I'd uh
1:18:32um oh like a lawyer account where I was
1:18:34commenting on the giant app Amber Heard
1:18:36defamation lawsuit just making stuff up
1:18:38got quite a lot of followers on that one
1:18:39as well
1:18:41I mean Twitter's um
1:18:44I don't know man like I think
1:18:47I think like this whole like whoa is
1:18:50Solana the good bet for next cycle is
1:18:52like
1:18:53like how's everything doing
1:18:55etc etc et cetera it's just decisions
1:18:57you don't need to make now like you can
1:18:59think about it now if you're bored like
1:19:01like
1:19:02if you want to spend your time thinking
1:19:04about that stuff and make a plan for
1:19:05however long in the future
1:19:07um
1:19:08like fair enough but I think just like
1:19:11reevaluate it when the time is right
1:19:13like I think
1:19:16in the last two three years the optimal
1:19:20strategy was like find a thing that's
1:19:21going up the most and Chase it okay like
1:19:24okay so Mike seems to go up quite a lot
1:19:26Solana seems to go quite a lot and then
1:19:28it just kept it kept out performing
1:19:29everything for the entire cycle and then
1:19:31it was over and then there was some
1:19:32stuff that didn't go up very much and it
1:19:34underperformed and it underperformed the
1:19:36entire cycle and like you probably
1:19:38couldn't have guessed what they were
1:19:39three years prior to that
1:19:41um so just like wait and see so much
1:19:43stuff can change between now and then
1:19:46um and you know
1:19:51and stuff
1:19:55therapy I heard they have a lot had a
1:19:57had a significant percentage of money on
1:19:59uh FTX are we I think they both
1:20:02discredited that rumor both uh there's a
1:20:05good rumor though you probably started
1:20:06that
1:20:07um
1:20:08you can imagine this Kobe starting and
1:20:11ending rumors with his own alts
1:20:14that Caroline used to date Sam
1:20:21it spread like [ __ ] wildfire and then
1:20:25someone said it in a group chat and I
1:20:27was like no let's not try I made it up
1:20:28and then someone was by no actually is
1:20:30true
1:20:32and then actually just turned out to
1:20:35actually be real
1:20:36yeah that's amazing Jesus Kobe just
1:20:40opens up Pandora's Box and can't get the
1:20:42rumors back in
1:20:43how many uh how many months of winter
1:20:45did SBF set us back I love 20 23 months
1:20:49all of 2023 all of 2023. well I mean
1:20:52months can be
1:20:54I mean more than 10. yeah it could be
1:20:57more than 12. oh you could
1:21:00I think it's quiet but I think it's
1:21:02probably several years
1:21:03several several years you're talking
1:21:05about 24 months I'm I'm asking
1:21:08specifically what SPF you think added to
1:21:12the crypto winter yeah yeah seventh
1:21:14edition oh added several years oh yeah
1:21:18yeah I am he he was he was the poster
1:21:21boy of Trad
1:21:24yeah like the DC crypto moving even if
1:21:28he wasn't like you know the person
1:21:31um
1:21:31uh
1:21:33like pushing for that he'd sort of
1:21:36become
1:21:37this like
1:21:40he'll be the most recognizable crypto
1:21:43face to a lot of
1:21:44um uh politicians Regulators uh Etc I
1:21:49think
1:21:50um and he went and blatantly lied to
1:21:53their face
1:21:54um it seems or
1:21:56told them
1:21:58um yeah like told them something and
1:22:00then like had the same problems later
1:22:01and made the same mistakes later like or
1:22:05just lie to their face let's go with the
1:22:06lie to their face
1:22:08um as he did to everyone else only days
1:22:10ago
1:22:11um
1:22:12but if he
1:22:13lied to their face
1:22:17they won't welcome whoever else with
1:22:20open arms they're not going to go oh
1:22:22these people have like like you know
1:22:24good intentions good faith
1:22:26um just like discussions with us they're
1:22:28just gonna say like their mindset for
1:22:31several years now if it wasn't already
1:22:33is going to be
1:22:35um these people
1:22:37uh uh I just lying to us and trying to
1:22:39pull the ball over our eyes
1:22:41um and they're not going to care about
1:22:43the distinction between like
1:22:45a centralized exchange operating as a
1:22:47bank
1:22:48and you know a fully transparent
1:22:52um Unchained self-custody
1:22:55um you know protocol that gets exploited
1:22:59yeah they're just not going to care
1:23:00about the difference they're just going
1:23:02to say like that's all the same thing to
1:23:03me that's crypto
1:23:04um and that is very bad and the like the
1:23:08guy that donated hundreds of millions to
1:23:10us
1:23:11um was also
1:23:13um doing like the worst possible thing
1:23:16um
1:23:17plus if you think about
1:23:20um
1:23:21the amount of people who will have lost
1:23:24money there the amount of people that
1:23:25will have narrowly avoided
1:23:27losing money there
1:23:29um the amount of builders that will have
1:23:33treasuries there so like you know how
1:23:35many projects are secretly dead now
1:23:37because they've lost everything and we
1:23:38don't know yet
1:23:40um how many industry participants will
1:23:42have had a relationship with Alameda and
1:23:45FTX that their business is now
1:23:47significantly worn down
1:23:49they're not going to fix that all these
1:23:51people lose their jobs
1:23:52um because the their businesses go they
1:23:55go out of business
1:23:56um
1:23:57and the progress you need in uh you know
1:24:04Innovation or like building or Whatever
1:24:06Gets significantly
1:24:08um delayed because of uh because of that
1:24:11um
1:24:12so trust is down like actual progress in
1:24:15the industry
1:24:16um is moved backwards
1:24:18um and not just from like Mount gox
1:24:20being like it's kind of like you use the
1:24:23exchange it feels like it's kind of
1:24:24broken and you know it's like this like
1:24:27overseas thing it's not like you know
1:24:29and then
1:24:31it's operating at a time of like Silk
1:24:33Road being the biggest like Bitcoin app
1:24:36um so
1:24:37like it makes sense that that goes down
1:24:39it's the Wild West
1:24:42Sam was pretending not to be like the
1:24:44opposite of that he was like we are the
1:24:46people are getting our ship together
1:24:47trying to look I guess as coinbase looks
1:24:51um a little bit but like cozying up
1:24:52maybe more to
1:24:54um uh traditional power structures
1:24:58um
1:24:59so I think it's like uh well probably
1:25:03smaller industry-wide impact than Mount
1:25:06gox
1:25:07um much worse timing and probably much
1:25:09worse knock-on
1:25:12um effects if like an exchange dies
1:25:14really early it's like you know no one
1:25:15knows how to do custody yet people don't
1:25:18know what's going on if it dies like
1:25:19after 10 years after Mount gox went down
1:25:22um it's uh right
1:25:26I think that trust is harder to repair
1:25:28it's bigger or smaller than a tether
1:25:30itself fell um don't say that oh much
1:25:34smaller no you say that so far
1:25:37yeah and it depends how tether would
1:25:39fall like if it came out that tether had
1:25:41four billion unsecured to Alameda that
1:25:44they can't get back and there's like you
1:25:46know
1:25:47um a five percent I don't know how much
1:25:48the market cap of tether is but let's
1:25:50say there's a five percent haircut on
1:25:52all tether assets or something
1:25:54then
1:25:56um I think
1:25:59that's not the end of the world if it's
1:26:00like you know oh tether's backed by
1:26:02nothing that like that would obviously
1:26:05be
1:26:06like catastrophically large
1:26:09um several years
1:26:12I think it's several years I have a
1:26:14couple things to add I guess if you know
1:26:16uh if it's several years guys we're all
1:26:19gonna need new sponsors we'll sponsor up
1:26:21only if uh up only sponsors bankless how
1:26:23about that bro we can print free money
1:26:25that way
1:26:28that's circular economy right guys I
1:26:30don't think that's how it works well I
1:26:32know I don't think a lot of this is
1:26:34yeah a lot of people don't know that
1:26:40yeah a couple of things that I think are
1:26:43just
1:26:45worth noting there is I think the VC
1:26:48Market just went on
1:26:50major ice probably
1:26:53um
1:26:54you know I run a i co-run a startup
1:26:59and uh
1:27:03it's flip dot XYZ Flip Flip XYZ thank
1:27:07God we have Runway right
1:27:09but like we don't have infinite Runway
1:27:11nobody almost nobody has infinite Runway
1:27:14every single company with
1:27:17anywhere from whatever Runway they have
1:27:20three months to 36 months I don't care
1:27:22what it is they're thinking how can we
1:27:25survive
1:27:26and this is
1:27:29the the the the willingness of the of
1:27:33the VC Market to go take risks at this
1:27:36point in that way is low
1:27:39so you got to figure a whole different
1:27:41dynamic
1:27:42it's all the metrics that you used to
1:27:45think mattered don't matter it's new
1:27:48metrics it's new baselines it's new
1:27:51demands this is not not the startup
1:27:56Market this is this is the money's
1:27:58Market
1:27:59the the money the liquidity is at a
1:28:01premium
1:28:02and that is going to impact projects big
1:28:05and small
1:28:08I mean the way you're way you're
1:28:10describing this this is um order of
1:28:12magnet and this kind of was hitting me
1:28:14today of how much larger this is than
1:28:17anything we've seen this year
1:28:20um this is bigger than here's Capital
1:28:22yeah in terms of legitimacy for the
1:28:25space yeah I think and those froze those
1:28:27froze the space for months yeah I mean
1:28:30this is bigger than than dokwan's
1:28:33algo stablecoin
1:28:35uh right in additional ranking of
1:28:37criminals dokon actually probably comes
1:28:39with the Bottom now like all he did was
1:28:40build something that made no sense
1:28:43um yeah I was extremely confident Doug
1:28:45was the happy idiot right well maybe
1:28:49maybe maybe right maybe he was very
1:28:51aware it made no sense and was doing a
1:28:52lot for it in the background who knows
1:28:54but like
1:28:55like it seems like SBS is by far the
1:28:58worst and then three hours is probably
1:29:00the next worst because it's somewhat
1:29:02similar to FTX but without customers I
1:29:04mean spf's going to jail right I mean
1:29:06this is the thing that's going to happen
1:29:08I mean I hope so as well but like I
1:29:10think you deserves politically loyal
1:29:12parents and donate a lot of money to
1:29:14politicians so I think one of the
1:29:16reasons why this is so much worse is
1:29:18that it's just the next one like the one
1:29:21that's after
1:29:23um Terra Luna is going to be worse than
1:29:25Terra Luna that was three hours Capital
1:29:26the one that's after three hours capital
1:29:28is going to be worse and it always
1:29:29Stacks because it's just like another
1:29:31shot to the heart like E2 Brutus like
1:29:34you too Sam uh and so like at this point
1:29:37we were joking when we started the live
1:29:39stream today it's like it feels like the
1:29:40final season of The Game of Thrones of
1:29:43crypto blow-ups
1:29:45but then my mind goes like all right
1:29:46what could be next I don't see much more
1:29:48but I don't think you know we can really
1:29:50know yet until after the fact did you
1:29:52think after FDX would blow up no no no
1:29:55like if kukai had gone down I would have
1:29:58been like yeah
1:29:59but that's right like who's left after
1:30:02FTX this has to be the final reasons it
1:30:04has to be the final blow up we had Tara
1:30:06Luna we had three AC we had Celsius we
1:30:09had the Michael Taylor's not getting
1:30:11liquidated right he keeps forgetting
1:30:13about them yeah we had the good actors
1:30:15of like block five right like the the
1:30:17ones caught up but significant
1:30:20now we have FTX we don't know what the
1:30:22hell it is we have the people that are
1:30:23the collateral damage of FTX but FTX in
1:30:25my opinion was the climactic finish of
1:30:28the blow-ups right if if Vitality turns
1:30:31out to be a scammer then I'm just racing
1:30:33oh I'm in space I'm going I'm out I'm
1:30:35going to grad school I mean the chats
1:30:37yelling sailor like saying sailor can
1:30:39get liquidated it's a slow bleed finish
1:30:42like it's a multi-year which could
1:30:44happen right like a crypto winner he
1:30:46can't service the loans I mean but what
1:30:47about tether you were talking about
1:30:49tether uh Ledger do you think that's
1:30:50it's over I mean yeah tethers tether's
1:30:54Mount gox level
1:30:56I don't know but I think that's the
1:30:57access Mount Knox level
1:30:59FTX well but okay here's here's a tweet
1:31:03from um I mean I wasn't here in the
1:31:05mountain Cox days I came a little bit
1:31:06after but um Dan McArdle was uh he now
1:31:09works at uh Masari started nasari he
1:31:13started massari with selkis a comp uh
1:31:16Mount gox blow up that was 6.5 of market
1:31:20cap total crypto market cap FDX blow up
1:31:230.8 percent market cap less than a
1:31:26percent
1:31:28yeah but like you're talking total
1:31:30crypto market cap right which the
1:31:31majority of is fake because that
1:31:33includes like
1:31:34oxy and serum and the bags that Alameda
1:31:36have borrowed against so it's not real
1:31:38like
1:31:40um like it that's what I mean that's
1:31:43what I meant earlier when I said like
1:31:44it's much smaller in terms of scales and
1:31:46mount gox I think the Dow hack was like
1:31:4930 of all ethereum or something right
1:31:50okay yeah um we don't have we don't have
1:31:53[ __ ] on that scale anymore because funds
1:31:55are way more spread out but
1:31:59the impact of this is going to be I
1:32:02think much bigger than like either the
1:32:04Dow hack or Mount Cox or a bit for next
1:32:06hack or right um there's a lot of
1:32:08intangibles like that's market cap is
1:32:10one thing but legitimacy is legitimacy
1:32:13size is massive is there is there any
1:32:15Silver Lining here are you guys planning
1:32:17to say why are you guys playing are you
1:32:19planning to stick around
1:32:21well like I've been doing this for 10
1:32:23years mate so I put my identity it's
1:32:24like third of my life what else am I
1:32:26going to do third just a third why so
1:32:29low
1:32:30well because I'm old as [ __ ]
1:32:34what's the other two-thirds of your life
1:32:35Kobe
1:32:37well the first 10 years I was a kid oh
1:32:40sorry I thought you meant like once I
1:32:42thought you were like yeah you spend one
1:32:43third of your daily time doing crypto
1:32:45I'm like you do two thirds of your time
1:32:47not crypto stuff
1:32:50I mean my entire life
1:32:52um yeah yeah I don't mind like it
1:32:55it
1:32:57it feels to me a little bit like
1:33:00um
1:33:01like my mental model of the crypto
1:33:04industry goes back quite a long way goes
1:33:07like moves backwards in time quite a
1:33:08long way because I like I was always
1:33:11very paranoid and like skeptical of
1:33:12everything and like every exchange is
1:33:15going to die every coin is going to go
1:33:16to zero
1:33:17um like it's all [ __ ]
1:33:19um the only thing that is important is
1:33:20Bitcoin right like Bitcoin is like this
1:33:23like
1:33:25um almost pure uh thing that has not
1:33:29been like perverted by
1:33:31um
1:33:32Market participants or whatever
1:33:34um and then like ethereum came along and
1:33:36then ethereum was like a legal GoFundMe
1:33:38for 2017.
1:33:40um and I was like I don't know if that
1:33:43feels um
1:33:44super great either surely there can be
1:33:46something more important than just doing
1:33:48a legal fundraisers
1:33:50and then D5 started to kick off and I
1:33:53was like okay cool this is the turning
1:33:54point for the industry like there's real
1:33:55stuff happening
1:33:57um here like people are building
1:33:58important products that are better than
1:34:01their centralized counterparties right
1:34:03like it's actually a better product
1:34:06um
1:34:07and then these like venues started
1:34:09popping up that I had good user
1:34:11experiences for the first time and they
1:34:13felt like a safe like product to use for
1:34:15the first time and
1:34:16um like actual institutional money was
1:34:18in the space and like backing people
1:34:21that seemed to know what they were doing
1:34:22and my mental model of the crypto
1:34:24industry switched to like oh it's grown
1:34:26up a little bit and not a lot it's still
1:34:28obviously completely stupid but it
1:34:31um
1:34:32it's not the Wild West
1:34:35anymore it's not all just like shambolic
1:34:40um nonsense and
1:34:43um like whack-a-mole exchange uh life
1:34:47but turns out
1:34:50it's exactly the same
1:34:52in my mind it like like if people are
1:34:55just like printing like fake money
1:34:57borrowing against the fake borrowing
1:34:58real money against fake money stealing
1:35:00user deposits and the exchange dies
1:35:02exactly the same as it did 10 years ago
1:35:04and periodically throughout those 10
1:35:06years
1:35:07um and the only real difference is now
1:35:08like there are some things that are
1:35:10genuine products that are kind of cool
1:35:12um so I like try and
1:35:14focus on that stuff a lot more
1:35:17um uh to remain optimistic about that
1:35:20stuff like building uh
1:35:23[Music]
1:35:24um
1:35:25protocols and platforms where like the
1:35:28sensor resistant that allow self-custody
1:35:32um allow you to like own your own stuff
1:35:34rather than having to rent it from
1:35:36um a bank or a crypto bank or whatever
1:35:41um
1:35:42stuff like that is getting built and
1:35:44it's important token prices of it all
1:35:46sucks like the some of the most
1:35:48important and useful things were the
1:35:51worst performers
1:35:53over the last few years
1:35:55um
1:35:55but
1:35:57um those things are kind of cool right
1:35:58and like someone will build or maybe
1:36:01already has built it if it's like dydx
1:36:03or GMX or all those other ones like
1:36:05versions of FTX that don't require you
1:36:08to give your money to some dude
1:36:13um and
1:36:15um
1:36:16like that stuff's important I think and
1:36:17that stuff uh is will remain interesting
1:36:20and you just got to see how much of that
1:36:22happens because a bull market comes
1:36:23around people forget about that stuff
1:36:24people will stick take shortcuts again
1:36:26and um uh and like like focus on the
1:36:31money rather than like the point of
1:36:33everything
1:36:34um
1:36:37and like
1:36:38every single bear Market I've been
1:36:40through at the around this time one year
1:36:42from the top or two years from the top
1:36:44by the way today's like basically
1:36:46exactly one one year from the top on the
1:36:48dot
1:36:49um it's one year since Barry tweeted
1:36:50it's gonna be a big week and it was a
1:36:52big week it was the top
1:36:53um but like one year or two years from
1:36:55that
1:36:56every single time
1:36:59it feels like it's [ __ ] it feels like
1:37:01okay it's like there's no coming back
1:37:05from this one like it's it's actually
1:37:07[ __ ] over this time it always feels
1:37:09like that and you feel it like
1:37:11viscerally for a few months
1:37:13um and then it washes out things go
1:37:16sideways for a while
1:37:18the world doesn't explode and
1:37:21um you can start to like people can
1:37:23start to rebuild
1:37:24um
1:37:25so yeah who knows I think my take on on
1:37:29that interpretation of uh this last bull
1:37:31market is like oh we found some
1:37:33legitimacy and that oh we've discovered
1:37:35defy we just discovered some real things
1:37:38that solve some real problems uh and
1:37:40then the bull market started and then
1:37:42crypto started to like return to its
1:37:45roots and return to what it was familiar
1:37:48with from previous bull cycles which was
1:37:50like fork and fair launch launcher token
1:37:52and just get more get more degenerate
1:37:55right and so we start with legitimacy at
1:37:57the very beginning of a bull market
1:37:58because that's what triggers the bull
1:38:00market in the first place and then as
1:38:02the bull market goes on like the
1:38:03collective IQ just goes lower and lower
1:38:05and lower until we back where we are
1:38:07back in like 2013 where we're just like
1:38:09forking Bitcoin 17 times uh and that's
1:38:12probably maybe if you carry that forward
1:38:14that's how like the next bull market
1:38:15will start we'll we'll build something
1:38:17real
1:38:18some new Innovations will come we'll
1:38:19build out out through this bear Market
1:38:21uh and then we'll just like go back
1:38:24we'll Benjamin Button it and just go
1:38:26backwards into just like adiq food coins
1:38:28and that'll be the top
1:38:30it's 80 low or higher
1:38:34probably high effort and for next cycle
1:38:37it'll probably be still pretty high yeah
1:38:38Ledger what about you are you gonna
1:38:40stick around you can take your advice
1:38:43your wife's advice and
1:38:45like
1:38:46I don't know I don't know what she's
1:38:48telling you to do if she's like she's
1:38:50okay with me being in this space I don't
1:38:53know if I'm okay with me being in the
1:38:54space really
1:38:56like has this been pretty like shaking
1:38:59for you
1:39:02it's not just crypto
1:39:04but what we consistently it's life Mom
1:39:06it's life like everyone's an idiot
1:39:10we need rational actors there's no where
1:39:14are the rational actors I don't
1:39:15understand how is there not an adult in
1:39:17the room the adults
1:39:20get crowded out by the children and
1:39:25the children don't deserve the power but
1:39:28they have the power they're the
1:39:30populists they're the
1:39:33um
1:39:34irrational
1:39:36Risk Takers they're the ones that don't
1:39:40deserve the keys but they've end up
1:39:42capturing the power of the keys and it
1:39:44pisses me off like from a crypto
1:39:47perspective
1:39:48I fell in love with the idea of a
1:39:51trustless and programmatic blockchain
1:39:55Bitcoin took a while to connect for me
1:39:58but ethereum connected with me right
1:40:01away because it was trustless
1:40:03at least in my naive eyes at the time
1:40:06programmatic blockchain and we saw that
1:40:09come to some real fruition with defy
1:40:12summer and that changed everything for
1:40:14me to where I was starting to get
1:40:16dejected after a few years of your
1:40:18Trading
1:40:19coins that are supposed to have
1:40:21decentralized Concepts on centralized
1:40:23exchanges to you can actually do things
1:40:25on chain and even nfts really clicked
1:40:28with me in that regard of you're doing
1:40:30things on chain you're taking control of
1:40:33the programmatic elements of a public
1:40:35blockchain and I can see through the
1:40:37jpegs and into the the D the 721
1:40:42represents and what that can become 10
1:40:45years from now or 20 years from now and
1:40:46those things excite me and then the
1:40:50freaking monkey brains take over again
1:40:52and they throw [ __ ] all over the place
1:40:53and they make a mess and then like
1:40:55hopefully some adults clean it up when
1:40:57it's all done and it's in the next bear
1:40:59and then their bags underperform all the
1:41:03dog [ __ ] that gets spread out over the
1:41:04next Bull cycle and it's like it's
1:41:06depressing so
1:41:09yeah it's like a thankless job not that
1:41:12I've participated well in it like I've
1:41:14been one of the monkeys
1:41:17um but it's it's a thankless job to like
1:41:20Express the reasons why you should be
1:41:22here and people are in the chat are
1:41:23talking about how Andreas is who they
1:41:26admire
1:41:27he's not taken like the full
1:41:32um by the horns stance of profitability
1:41:34he's taken the moral High Road along the
1:41:37along the way and very few of those
1:41:41really shine and last the reward is in
1:41:45the the Quick Fix and hope you jump off
1:41:46the train right in time before it
1:41:49implodes in the next cycle and we got to
1:41:51get past that stuff we got to get to
1:41:52True Value and I haven't seen that and
1:41:55it pisses me off and I would like to see
1:41:57that and we have I don't think we've
1:41:59really seen it yet and you know this is
1:42:01only two cycles for me
1:42:03it's a second cycle where it ends in
1:42:06some pretty tremendous disappointment
1:42:08like the climactic finish of oh brother
1:42:12yeah but who are these children and
1:42:15where are the where's the good stuff we
1:42:17need the good stuff I need we need the
1:42:19real change not the dog coins and not
1:42:22the jpegs and
1:42:24not the Clone coins and the scammers and
1:42:27the [ __ ] and the criminals running
1:42:30off on the private planes like we need
1:42:31the builders and the change makers and
1:42:34they're not being rewarded or
1:42:36incentivized to be the good things and
1:42:39we need them to be able to show up to be
1:42:41rewarded to show up and we need them to
1:42:43take control and do something and I I
1:42:46haven't seen that yet that's
1:42:47disappointing
1:42:48electric you don't have any yeah you
1:42:50don't have any kids right I have two
1:42:52kids I have two kids uh Ryan here is
1:42:54yeah they're both nft Founders
1:42:58uh Ryan's got got three kids your guys's
1:43:01kids like the presence of your kids like
1:43:04impact how you think about the
1:43:05degeneracy in this industry
1:43:07yes
1:43:09for I mean for me it impacts how I think
1:43:11about like the future
1:43:13like I I mean the reason I'm like the
1:43:16reason I'm in crypto is because
1:43:19um I believe in what we're building you
1:43:21you want to do the maximum public good
1:43:23yeah effective altruism
1:43:26it was the poster of SPF the reason I'm
1:43:29in crypto is to do the maximum politics
1:43:30is that what he really says there's like
1:43:33a poster there's like from the streets
1:43:35in San Francisco yeah I mean but like
1:43:38but this is the problem it's the Alex
1:43:41machinski is saying um you can't trust
1:43:43the banks right like on it on a t-shirt
1:43:46or the SPF saying I want to do the
1:43:48maximum public good I mean this is the
1:43:50problem so I've been asking uh you know
1:43:52people lately have been in crypto for a
1:43:54while it's like just you're experiencing
1:43:56crypto has it made you more bullish on
1:43:58humanity and more jaded
1:44:00um and the answer I consistently get
1:44:01back is like yes
1:44:03yes
1:44:05and I guess I feel that too and this is
1:44:09definitely a moment where we're kind of
1:44:11in a in a trough in a valley where I'm
1:44:13just I'm like like you guys I'm feeling
1:44:16pretty jaded about what's going on like
1:44:18how did this is such a self-inflicted
1:44:23wound
1:44:24how did SPF and the so-called adults
1:44:27like screw this up so royally
1:44:31I mean this is like catastrophic failure
1:44:35how did how did we even get here how did
1:44:37this happen and it's greed it's
1:44:39degeneracy it's not being satisfied with
1:44:42being a you know
1:44:44multi-millionaire and a billionaire
1:44:47you have to be like
1:44:4830 billion dollars richest dude on the
1:44:51planet I it's that sort of thing that is
1:44:54dragging us down and I think Ledger
1:44:57you're right like the right people
1:44:58aren't getting rewarded right SPF is
1:45:01still worth more than vitalik buterin
1:45:03like what
1:45:05how like how does that happen
1:45:08um so yeah it's um it's depressing
1:45:11sometimes maybe this is just kind of a
1:45:13low point maybe this maybe this is uh
1:45:15the bottom signal you know this entire
1:45:18world what's depressing is was it a
1:45:20bottom signal of the world like
1:45:23Putin's being a [ __ ] Trump is an
1:45:26idiot like shouldn't exist like Biden's
1:45:29been in public office
1:45:311971. like what is going on like none of
1:45:34these people deserve to be there like
1:45:36this all ridiculous the the absolute
1:45:39freaking apes are in charge and they
1:45:42make no sense and they've there's like
1:45:44billions of real people who are eating
1:45:48the consequences of this do you think
1:45:50this is what like the early internet you
1:45:52know
1:45:53fathers of the internet you know yeah is
1:45:57it created the internet and you're like
1:45:58we're going to give
1:46:00access to knowledge to the entire world
1:46:02right I mean just such a
1:46:05um Utopia type of vision and now fast
1:46:09forward and look look at all the ways
1:46:10we're using the the internet for
1:46:12negative it's done Untold good but like
1:46:15I mean are we any smarter
1:46:18like than we were you know 30 years ago
1:46:2120 years ago I mean it just it it does
1:46:25feel like
1:46:26uh crypto is kind of repeating some of
1:46:28these mistakes and um yeah I mean I do
1:46:31get jaded when I look at that when I
1:46:33look at things like FTX yeah at the same
1:46:35time guys I mean there are so many
1:46:37builders in this space and there's so
1:46:40many projects that are worthwhile and
1:46:42like I don't know Kobe you probably have
1:46:43the when you say so many you mean like
1:46:4510 right
1:46:46laughs I mean honestly right
1:46:50um
1:46:50like there's uniswap there's Ave there's
1:46:53what else come on help me guys uh yeah I
1:46:56think that's all of them
1:46:59no cash oh wait can't touch that anymore
1:47:03it's kind of a good point in a way
1:47:04though because
1:47:05like and to tell this story I'll have to
1:47:08do some somewhat of a anecdote or
1:47:10tangent because
1:47:12um I don't know how to explain things
1:47:13simply
1:47:15um because I'm not very smart but
1:47:17um
1:47:18not long ago I got into a little fight
1:47:20on Twitter about nfts and I called them
1:47:22all coins with pictures and
1:47:25um in defense of nfts a bunch of people
1:47:28point to like three or four artists that
1:47:31have built sustainable careers of
1:47:33selling like a one of one over time and
1:47:36their prices have gone up over time and
1:47:37they have genuine collectors and they're
1:47:39like
1:47:40nfts and not all kinds of pictures it's
1:47:43not a scam it's not all just like
1:47:44speculation casino because luck here at
1:47:47this like slice this slice is
1:47:50interesting pure it doesn't have any of
1:47:52those things it's everything that the
1:47:53nft space is supposed to be
1:47:56um these are real artists who have
1:47:57managed to connect to an audience and
1:47:59monetize their work
1:48:00um and that's beautiful
1:48:03um it's not selling pictures of like
1:48:05blood Apes for millions of dollars or
1:48:08whatever
1:48:09um
1:48:09and
1:48:11at the time I was like how can you just
1:48:13ignore
1:48:14everything else right you're looking at
1:48:16this one percent of the industry and
1:48:18going of your industry or hobby or
1:48:20whatever and going like
1:48:22this thing these things are great
1:48:23because
1:48:25look at this slice and I'm going to
1:48:26ignore everything else that just deny
1:48:28that information and now I thought about
1:48:31it a little while afterwards and I was
1:48:32like well when I meet
1:48:34friends who are anti-crypto or not into
1:48:36crypto
1:48:38um and and stuff
1:48:40I wonder if that's what I sound like to
1:48:43them because I'm kind of like wow
1:48:46Bitcoin ethereum look at uniswalk look
1:48:49at like ah look at maker Dao you know
1:48:53um I like
1:48:54this stuff is really good this stuff is
1:48:57like
1:48:58you know pure and like it it you know
1:49:01what I mean it's not exactly like that
1:49:02nft guy and
1:49:04I'm not like ignoring
1:49:06uh
1:49:07like all the other stuff I obviously see
1:49:09it and I know that it exists but I do
1:49:11certainly attribute to it like
1:49:14that is
1:49:15that's not the important stuff that's
1:49:16noise that's like you know like you know
1:49:20that's not the industry and really
1:49:22maybe that's like 18 of the volume of
1:49:25the industry or something maybe it's
1:49:26like a lot of the industries propped up
1:49:28on that stuff and they're like biggest
1:49:29players participate in that like binance
1:49:32as 80 market share or something and they
1:49:34did uh they released their own ethereum
1:49:36copy paste clone like you know like
1:49:39the top
1:49:41um tanon
1:49:43um playing gecko is not the things that
1:49:46I think are like
1:49:48like people with good good intentions
1:49:49building something that's important it's
1:49:51like weird stuff
1:49:53um so I do wonder if we turn a massive
1:49:57Blind Eye to a lot of the stuff
1:50:00or just disregard it as noise because
1:50:05um we see parts of the industry that are
1:50:07important but those parts of the
1:50:09industry are not the um the parts that
1:50:12are like flourishing and growing it's
1:50:14just you can focus on them and go these
1:50:16things are good and
1:50:19yeah I don't know I think that there's a
1:50:20lot of people that build a career on
1:50:22being
1:50:23um like
1:50:25critical of everything in crypto no
1:50:27matter what they call everything
1:50:29um a scam of fraud blah blah blah
1:50:31um and find something bad to say about
1:50:33everything and then there are people who
1:50:35build a career of being completely
1:50:37uncritically
1:50:38like favorable about everything in
1:50:40crypto
1:50:41um saying everything's good
1:50:44um you know free markets blah blah blah
1:50:46and I wonder a little bit if
1:50:49to people I sound a little bit like the
1:50:52latter rather than
1:50:54the former like that I think there is
1:50:56like a real there's a healthy line
1:50:57somewhere in the middle of being like
1:50:58optimistically skeptical
1:51:00um
1:51:01uh and it doesn't feel like that space
1:51:04is actually very popular
1:51:07but I surround myself with people that
1:51:08like are in that space But I don't think
1:51:10that it is actually a good
1:51:12representation of the industry perhaps
1:51:14um so
1:51:17yeah I I think a lot of the
1:51:19disconnection about how
1:51:21other people see the industry how we see
1:51:23the industry and when these events
1:51:25happen why it's disheartening is because
1:51:27it just
1:51:28reveals to you again
1:51:30all of the parts of the industry that
1:51:32you like
1:51:34like you're just attributing as noise
1:51:36and unimportant and actually it's really
1:51:37important that make the big the most
1:51:39significant events of every year within
1:51:42our industry by [ __ ] up something
1:51:44like catastrophically
1:51:46um
1:51:47so
1:51:49I don't know I think maybe there's
1:51:51something to do with that but also maybe
1:51:53um like we just sort of
1:51:55kind of ignore it in real time
1:51:58um like what can you do about it right
1:51:59what can you do yeah this is something
1:52:02I've battled with uh as well I I want to
1:52:04argue this guy on stage about something
1:52:07uh I can't remember his name but I had
1:52:09to it was one of those guys Kobe that
1:52:11you identified as people that build a
1:52:13brand off of just like [ __ ] on
1:52:15crypto and that's like what they do and
1:52:16they always come out when prices go down
1:52:19and uh I started off this debate
1:52:22um with my opening statements of like
1:52:24there's always two people in the world
1:52:26of crypto there's the crypto idealist
1:52:29who zoomed forward 50 plus years into
1:52:31the future and talk about the future
1:52:33crypto Utopia that crypto is going to
1:52:35bring and how great it is uh and then
1:52:37there's the crypto Skeptics who look at
1:52:39crypto as it is today and say like oh
1:52:41like well clearly the whole thing's a
1:52:43scam uh the whole thing like through and
1:52:46through and through and like uh honestly
1:52:48Kobe I actually find that you actually
1:52:49fit the that middle ground pretty damn
1:52:51well where you see you're here for all
1:52:53the right reasons but like you you can
1:52:56you can call out a bunch of [ __ ]
1:52:57noise when when in the middle of a bull
1:52:59market which a lot of people are are
1:53:01willing to drink the Kool-Aid
1:53:03um when you're when you were talking
1:53:04about the whole like nft industry where
1:53:06you're called it like all coins with
1:53:07jpegs uh right it was super right it was
1:53:12super right and that that was like kind
1:53:13of the same reference I was going with
1:53:14like oh yeah as soon as we figure out
1:53:16crypto industry figures out this new
1:53:17primitive we like regress back to our
1:53:19former selves and start to do what we're
1:53:21familiar with which is trade alt coins
1:53:23but now they've got pictures associated
1:53:25with them that's how that's how I felt
1:53:27in ethereum in 2017 with like the Ico
1:53:30movement it was like oh yeah ethereum's
1:53:32full of icos and and I was like and but
1:53:36I'm I'm seeing ethereum as like well no
1:53:38smart contracts icos are just the thing
1:53:41today smart contracts are the future uh
1:53:44but it takes like such a long conviction
1:53:46a long-term like time Horizon to be able
1:53:49to exist in that future State
1:53:52um
1:53:53it's it's tough man and this is what we
1:53:56this is what we do as an industry is
1:53:58like we Zoom forward 50 plus years it's
1:54:01a super cycle we're gonna teleport there
1:54:03like Oh no just kidding uh interest
1:54:05rates go up uh every new buddy needs to
1:54:08pay back their debts uh all the monkey
1:54:10pictures that you paid a million dollars
1:54:11for are now worth nothing uh I mean it's
1:54:16it's that it's the inevitable like
1:54:17laying the foundations of things that
1:54:19are real uh and then and then we just
1:54:23speculate on top of new things and that
1:54:25this was what the bull market was in the
1:54:26first half of 2021 it was a real
1:54:28foundational bull market and in the
1:54:30second half of 2021 it was like GameFly
1:54:34and like weird knockoff Fiverr nfts
1:54:37um but those same things will be back in
1:54:41greater numbers next cycle and they'll
1:54:43be stronger
1:54:44and then we'll just do this whole thing
1:54:46all over again
1:54:48man you say super cycle type stuff it's
1:54:51suppressing to me
1:54:53we I I don't know about you guys but I
1:54:56mean I I got duped by the super cycle
1:54:58meme for sure
1:55:02Kobe's been uh consistently
1:55:06when I try to still be believe in
1:55:08something Kobe like brings this healthy
1:55:11skepticism to my chats like the very
1:55:13little time that we talked that's not on
1:55:15the air but even on the air
1:55:17um we really basically never talked but
1:55:20it's not yet
1:55:23um but but when we do it's often like
1:55:25him bringing this like skeptical lens to
1:55:28something that I'm okay with right like
1:55:29that I trust inherently or something I
1:55:32just realized we talk about super cycle
1:55:34or whatever else or like meeting your
1:55:36Heroes type of stuff it's like my first
1:55:39cycle I was really dumb my second cycle
1:55:41I was capable and stupid uh that's now
1:55:44and like I feel like by the third cycle
1:55:47maybe I'll be capable but also like kind
1:55:50of paralyzed by skepticism and listen
1:55:53you guys are all talking very
1:55:54confidently about his promise next cycle
1:55:56well I'm not saying when will it be I'll
1:55:59be more bald more fat whatever like
1:56:02sag your cheeks I'll be like that
1:56:04Telegram
1:56:05uh AI version the sticker of me when I'm
1:56:09like 75.
1:56:10um I just I just want to know this is
1:56:12the first time in history that people
1:56:13have been extremely confident that
1:56:15another cycle is promised to us I
1:56:17remember thinking that last cycle
1:56:19you thought another one was guaranteed
1:56:21you know I always thought like oh
1:56:23everyone's talking about the next cycle
1:56:24uh is it really gonna happen then if
1:56:27everyone's talking about it I remember
1:56:28thinking about that I'm a believer that
1:56:30it's it's inevitable that we get another
1:56:31cycle but I'm not going to call a time
1:56:33on that for sure 100 but but I like and
1:56:36I could be wrong on that like what if
1:56:38it's in 20 years will you like whip up
1:56:40the podcast again
1:56:45every step of the way oh my God growing
1:56:48up freaking old together David what
1:56:51I mean we're not old
1:56:54ER oh I'm still in my how old is garyvee
1:56:59he's old
1:57:00scary everyone guessed about the police
1:57:0340 43. yeah I was gonna say 44 or
1:57:06whatever I have to type in age
1:57:09wow he is 46. 46.
1:57:13the more well like with with guy via he
1:57:18like
1:57:18his streams and stuff but I think maybe
1:57:21it was also because it was all about
1:57:22like like cringy jpegs and [ __ ] so I was
1:57:26always like
1:57:27I feel like this is what ledge is going
1:57:30to be like in like 10 years
1:57:34I just watched him like wow this is the
1:57:36this is the future for Ledger because if
1:57:38he was just like no way pushing 50. it's
1:57:41been like check out this rabbit I just
1:57:43minted guys
1:57:46that's what I see Gary
1:57:49totally unreal energy yeah she's got
1:57:53books
1:57:54yeah yeah and then like jab jab jab
1:57:58right hook like he wrote a whole book on
1:57:59this concept jab jab jab right hook that
1:58:02this is a book yeah I think so I don't
1:58:05want to read it Gary garyvee was like a
1:58:07web guy influencer way before nft so are
1:58:10you all not familiar with his previous
1:58:12Works uh ish he's good on the podcast
1:58:15but it was he was a he was a full-on web
1:58:18guy well I guess I was too but in a
1:58:21different way comment from the chat
1:58:22garyvee dresses like a middle schooler
1:58:23but I love him
1:58:26I mean he's the he is the dude with the
1:58:29skateboard yeah
1:58:32I love kids how do you know your fellow
1:58:34kids
1:58:35[Music]
1:58:37guys should we uh think about winding
1:58:40this down and um do you have any parting
1:58:42words of wisdom how about for people who
1:58:44just um
1:58:45just feeling really bad right now do it
1:58:48we I mean we just we just told them they
1:58:50were gonna get multiple years of uh
1:58:52crypto winter multiple years with
1:58:55bankless podcast is all I'm hearing we
1:58:57have uh I hope we understand
1:59:00yeah just staking right we just stake
1:59:04eat it's it's free money
1:59:06that's how that works for most people I
1:59:09mean for most people
1:59:11um more years of culture winter is
1:59:13probably better
1:59:15um I think for the majority of people
1:59:16listening it will like it would actually
1:59:18be the
1:59:20optimal strategy to have like five years
1:59:22or something
1:59:23um it would be optional for them
1:59:25probably not the people listening that
1:59:27have like a full net worth invested now
1:59:28it probably sounds like quite bad
1:59:31um but like uh
1:59:34uh if
1:59:36you get a longer time to you know
1:59:40um
1:59:40DCA accumulate
1:59:43um figure out your positioning and stuff
1:59:45um with like a clear mind I think that's
1:59:47probably
1:59:48um
1:59:49probably optimal like I had
1:59:52um a job like full-time job for the
1:59:55entirety of the 2017 cycle all the way
1:59:58through the bull market I could have not
1:59:59had a job I could have you know only
2:00:00done crypto and I kept a job and it
2:00:03allowed me to have like a very clear
2:00:05head about the whole thing or as clear
2:00:08as it as clear as I could have had
2:00:10whereas if I was all in doing it all the
2:00:12time it would have been quite bad for me
2:00:13I think
2:00:14um
2:00:15unlike the fundamental parts of the
2:00:20uh the mission and the the purpose
2:00:22behind Bitcoin and ethereum and
2:00:25um
2:00:26a very short list of stuff that uh I
2:00:29think like crosses the chasm of
2:00:31legitimacy
2:00:33it is is not like that is not to me
2:00:37that's not been doubted by any of this
2:00:39stuff and in fact it's like
2:00:42uh
2:00:44is the opposite of that it's like proven
2:00:46over and over again that like these
2:00:49centralized systems that require you to
2:00:52rent your own assets back from them
2:00:54um will not be
2:00:58um
2:00:59not always be honest with your money and
2:01:01you should not have to trust
2:01:03someone else just to like access a
2:01:06financial service or
2:01:08um
2:01:09uh you know use use your own money
2:01:12basically
2:01:13um so that part of the my thesis for the
2:01:16the
2:01:17importance of
2:01:19the like technology and you know
2:01:22um things that we have remains
2:01:25um true today
2:01:26um and that has sort of been like at
2:01:27least my guiding principle for 10 years
2:01:30um
2:01:31yeah it might get really bad in the
2:01:32meanwhile
2:01:33um but until that part until that seems
2:01:36like it's no longer
2:01:37um important
2:01:39um
2:01:41like I I think that's the thing to focus
2:01:43on
2:01:44um maybe it was all speculo crypto
2:01:47tokens and like there was a hundred year
2:01:49Bull Run and interest rates went to zero
2:01:52and people invented Bitcoin because
2:01:55there was nowhere else to put your
2:01:57worthless dollars and we had a 10-year
2:01:59super cycle of crypto coins right before
2:02:01Economic Policy regime change and it
2:02:04never recovers and never goes up ever
2:02:05again but in that world like
2:02:07what like hey what can you do and B what
2:02:10else are you going to invest in anyway
2:02:11so
2:02:12um I think
2:02:14just like do you find the mission of
2:02:18having
2:02:19peer-to-peer peer-to-peer sensor
2:02:22resistant technologies that allow you to
2:02:23uh the freedom to self-custody your
2:02:26assets important
2:02:27um and do you think that a centralized
2:02:29exchange blowing up a hedge fund blowing
2:02:31up a
2:02:32poorly designed Ponzi scheme mechanism
2:02:35or a different crypto Bank blowing up in
2:02:38any way plus doubt on that thesis for me
2:02:40it it doesn't I think that's important
2:02:44um and I'll think about that
2:02:45um but
2:02:47uh I don't know if you saw in chat spf's
2:02:49apparently playing league right now
2:02:53he's like because it shows you see the
2:02:56game is playing Kindred
2:02:58um and what platform does it say that
2:03:00he's playing that
2:03:01huh it's Gulf Stream blown off steam
2:03:06who knows Jesus that's got to be a meme
2:03:08uh if that's real that is like
2:03:12what would you do after your
2:03:14multi-billion dollar head of fund blows
2:03:17up don't answer that
2:03:19well
2:03:20um
2:03:21I mean that that makes sense Kobe what
2:03:24about you Ledger David what do you guys
2:03:27leave us chat chat Chad was asking for
2:03:29some hope leave us with some hope
2:03:30earlier
2:03:31I think Kobe hit on a point that's right
2:03:34which is like the chain hasn't failed us
2:03:36you know
2:03:38um
2:03:39the
2:03:41the things that were the worst were the
2:03:44vulnerability points of human actors yep
2:03:47human human failure
2:03:49centralized entities that
2:03:53um were
2:03:56unsatisfactory Solutions whether they're
2:03:59trying to meet regulatory criteria or
2:04:01subvert it either way
2:04:03it was human failure over chain failure
2:04:08um there was app failure and there was
2:04:10you know hacks and stuff like that but
2:04:13overall the base layer with the chain
2:04:15showed lots of Promise the cycle
2:04:19Kobe mentioned about like who can
2:04:21stomach it for another one what I've
2:04:24recognizing myself and others is can I
2:04:26go in with conviction again in the same
2:04:28way and if I can and if I'm right then
2:04:31the upside is huge
2:04:34right like you go in with conviction a
2:04:36significant percentage of your net worth
2:04:39to to do it again
2:04:41and it actually works
2:04:44the upside is not just life-changing the
2:04:47upside is insane
2:04:50if you're wrong there's this Perpetual
2:04:52disappointment opportunity that could be
2:04:54really depressing
2:04:55to go in with that conviction if you
2:04:57disappear you might be all right have
2:05:00changed your life a bit and it was a fun
2:05:03ride but then maybe you missed out on it
2:05:05on being right
2:05:07so you got to determine why are you here
2:05:10are you here for this like Financial
2:05:12Freedom component are you here for
2:05:14something deeper and can you stomach the
2:05:18outcome no matter what the outcome is
2:05:20and I think you have to decide for
2:05:21yourself like whether you can stomach
2:05:23the potential outcome ranges whether you
2:05:26want to participate in those and and why
2:05:28are you actually here
2:05:30and
2:05:32I uh
2:05:35my personal priority list is family
2:05:37first and then like function set second
2:05:40right like I want the
2:05:44I want my my family to be secure and
2:05:48then I want to
2:05:50build well I want to be able to build
2:05:53and do and invest and talk whatever the
2:05:56hell I'm giving whatever platform or
2:05:58opportunities I'm given
2:05:59I want to do those
2:06:01reputably that I can look back upon and
2:06:05be proud of my effort and I think that
2:06:08there is still an opportunity to do that
2:06:10within crypto so I intend to do it
2:06:13um
2:06:14but if I feel like that's no longer
2:06:16possible I just won't anymore
2:06:18I don't I don't think we have to give up
2:06:20on those things like this is super
2:06:22bottom signaly type of speech
2:06:25um but I think that we uh I think we
2:06:29still have an opportunity for good
2:06:31I don't think it's a guarantee I think
2:06:33there's a lot of work that needs to be
2:06:34done I think a lot of people need to do
2:06:36work we need to talk about the
2:06:38importance of the chain and the
2:06:42um like the Eric Voorhees argument
2:06:45versus the Sam argument like the
2:06:49Trust
2:06:50trust in that which can be trustless
2:06:52don't trust in me because
2:06:55I'm I can wear a suit with my shoes
2:06:57untied
2:06:59um
2:07:01yeah we gotta get we got to get back to
2:07:03the basics and we gotta wear solid
2:07:06fundamentals and carry on
2:07:09back to the basics
2:07:11um David you saw conviction on the space
2:07:14you buying I think the main thing to
2:07:17think about is that uh during the 2017
2:07:20to 2018 crash we basically had nothing
2:07:23to stand on as an industry we had we had
2:07:25Bitcoin and we had this theoretical use
2:07:28case of ethereum
2:07:29um that was about it
2:07:31um and then we built some stuff during
2:07:33the bear Market that caused a bull
2:07:34market to happen later uh things like
2:07:36uniswap seeing things like Ave
2:07:38synthetics a few more uh governance
2:07:41tokens now we got some Dow stuff we got
2:07:43some cool nft stuff uh and but we and
2:07:46we've we've locked in some very real
2:07:48progress
2:07:49um with some very real things that are
2:07:51moving the needle even though that
2:07:53there's like maybe five percent of the
2:07:55total crypto industry is that the real
2:07:58stuff and then the 95 is just like
2:08:00Leverage of that real stuff in pursuit
2:08:02of financial gain again it's just what
2:08:04crypto is going to be but we've locked
2:08:06in five percent of really cool
2:08:09legitimate like internet changing things
2:08:12and that was and you know Infinity level
2:08:16improvement from the bull market prior
2:08:18going from like zero percent to five
2:08:20percent
2:08:21I think if we just play this out like we
2:08:24don't go from like five percent to ten
2:08:26percent next time we go from like five
2:08:27percent to 25 or 5 to 50 if if I'm being
2:08:31optimistic uh and so my my bold case for
2:08:35like if this is a five-year bear market
2:08:37and you need the conviction to just grit
2:08:39your teeth and dump your paycheck into
2:08:41crypto because you want that
2:08:42generational wealth it's like not a
2:08:45linear Improvement of legitimate things
2:08:48that crypto produces it'll be an
2:08:49exponential Improvement
2:08:51um uh and so we'll we'll be able I think
2:08:54the people that are here with conviction
2:08:57that are doing good stuff and building
2:08:58real things are going to only have more
2:09:02ammo than all of the scammers who get
2:09:03washed out every single year uh and so
2:09:06like the real people doing the real
2:09:08things will always have a stronger
2:09:10foothold than the scammers that come and
2:09:12just like do the cool thing that happens
2:09:14every single bull market and so I'm I'm
2:09:17optimistic for next Bull cycle
2:09:19that and every and every bull cycle
2:09:21subsequent that there's always
2:09:24a tilt a slow small tilt towards the
2:09:27legitimate Builders because we have the
2:09:29last year's last Cycles bull market
2:09:31legitimacy to stand upon uh and so that
2:09:34that was that's what makes me optimistic
2:09:35uh is that like we'll we just it's just
2:09:38about learning lessons
2:09:40um so that's that's why that's what I'm
2:09:42optimistic for
2:09:44I agree with that yeah and I I mean I
2:09:47guess for me I I don't know everything
2:09:49about all the Assets in the space but um
2:09:52I feel like
2:09:53this the recent events have actually
2:09:56proven the use case of some of the core
2:09:58assets I have conviction on
2:10:00um crash I have some conviction on
2:10:03bitcoin
2:10:04you know mostly ether mostly some of
2:10:06these D5 tools that sort of thing uh
2:10:09ethereum I mean this kind of proves the
2:10:11use case right like that we can't
2:10:13actually trust these centralized
2:10:15intermediaries
2:10:17um and uh I don't know to me
2:10:20ethereum in particular has never looked
2:10:22stronger like I would be happy to as
2:10:25long as I have some income the means to
2:10:27do it by triple digit all day and
2:10:30whether that takes one year two years
2:10:32three years five years to come to
2:10:35fruition I mean like is it it's a
2:10:37totally different feeling to me than
2:10:40buying eth in like 2018 or 2019 where we
2:10:45weren't sure about the road map like was
2:10:48proof of stake actually going to happen
2:10:50was the theorem going to scale did it
2:10:52even have use cases besides the stupid
2:10:54Ico thing uh and uh we're well past that
2:10:57now so I don't have conviction on all of
2:10:59the assets in the space and all the use
2:11:01cases but some of the the core ones I
2:11:04have more conviction than ever uh so I
2:11:06don't know how long this is gonna take
2:11:07but um guys uh this has been fun thanks
2:11:11for uh a little bit of catharsis this
2:11:14evening uh appreciate up only bankless
2:11:16live stream we'll do these more often
2:11:18maybe not just on like clam stays like
2:11:21this maybe uh more routinely but it's
2:11:23been really fun hanging out with you
2:11:24guys appreciate it
2:11:26cheers
2:11:28bye

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