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Bad Blood: Erika Cheung on Bringing Down Theranos — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:00the mighty and resilient miramac River
0:03carving through the communities of our
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0:51[Music]
0:54anything I'm Sarah Edinson and I'm
0:56Anthony air quotes nippy Ames and this
0:59is is a little bit Cy a podcast about
1:03what happens when things that seem like
1:04a great thing at first go bad every week
1:07we chat with survivors experts and
1:08whistleblowers for real cult stories
1:10told directly by the people who live
1:12through them because we want you to
1:14learn a few things we've had to learn
1:16the hard way like if you think you're
1:18too smart to get sucked into something
1:19culty you're already Prime recruitment
1:22material you might even already be an a
1:24cult oops you better keep listening to
1:26find out welcome to season six of a
1:28little bit culty
1:31sinking down to the dirs of the
1:34ocean hanging on to the
1:38[Music]
1:41with
1:44[Music]
1:46all welcome back everyone to this
1:49episode of albc we are very excited
1:52about this week's guest Erica Chung
1:55arrived at the Theos corporate
1:56headquarters at just 22 years old as a
1:59newly minted graduate of the University
2:01of California Berkeley at the time the
2:04chemists and biologists saw Elizabeth
2:06Holmes just as so many other people did
2:08a Visionary CEO a genius and a disruptor
2:12who was about to completely rewrite the
2:14healthc care Paradigm but Erica's
2:16honeymoon phase at her dream gig working
2:18for this so-called Visionary lasted all
2:21of seven months that's when she quit her
2:23job in the Theos lab and became a
2:25whistleblower exposing one of the
2:27biggest cons in American Business
2:29history Erica helped Federal Regulators
2:31see Elizabeth Holmes for who she really
2:33was a liar who'd put patients lives in
2:36Jeopardy and a fraud who duped investors
2:38out of hundreds of millions of dollars
2:41these days Holmes is wearing prison
2:42jumpsuits not her signature black
2:44turtlenecks because she serving out an
2:4611-year 3-month sentence for her role in
2:49wire fraud at the now defunct company
2:51she founded Theos and our guest Erica is
2:54moving on with her life she just happens
2:56to be doing it in the Perma Spotlight
2:58that comes with being a whistleblower in
2:59a giant headline making case the Theos
3:02story not only seems made for movies
3:04it's already been the subject of a
3:05scripted Hulu series The Dropout and the
3:08recent doc the inventor out for blood in
3:10Silicon Valley that's where we first
3:12spotted her and thought we need her on
3:14our podcast stat and we've been in touch
3:17ever since everything about the Theos
3:19story seems a little bit culty to us so
3:22we jumped at the chance to chat with her
3:24after all sometimes a cult looks like a
3:26really great job offer with an upand
3:28cominging Visionary who turned turns out
3:30to be a faux humanitarian H I think
3:33we've been there lots to cover in this
3:34episode we're talking Theos the cult of
3:37personality in Silicon Valley and what
3:39happens when good people say enough is
3:42enough anytime someone Blows the Whistle
3:44on criminal characters we want to know
3:46more so here's our chat with Theos
3:48whistleblower chemist and biologist and
3:51overall badass Erica Chung
3:54[Music]
4:05Erica welcome to a little bit culty hi
4:07Sarah thanks for having me we are so
4:09excited we have reimmersed oursel into
4:12the world of Theos to prep for this
4:13interview having we did a deep dive
4:16about a year ago yeah well I think
4:17whenever the dot came out and I remember
4:19watching it thinking I was taking a
4:20break from cult content and you were one
4:22of the first people in the episode to
4:25say drinking the Kool-Aid which everyone
4:27on this podcast know what that is a
4:29reference too so well first of all how
4:31are you welcome to the podcast and how
4:33are you in your journey I'm doing quite
4:36well I'm doing quite well so you figure
4:38for me even though the Theos case has
4:40kind of popularized in the media
4:41probably in the Last 5 Years for me this
4:44whole journey has lasted about a decade
4:46so I have to say at the end of 2023 and
4:49beginning into this year of 2024 I feel
4:53quite at peace and a bit liberated from
4:56the case because there's no litigation
5:00there's no having to await for a federal
5:02trial there's no fear of any type of
5:05lingering retaliation in any way shape
5:07or form that that might take and so
5:10you're seeing a very different version
5:11of me than you probably would have seen
5:14at very different junctures throughout
5:17this this process you know whether that
5:19was the acute whistleblowing process
5:22whether that was being immersed in the
5:24company and working at Theos whether
5:27that was fleeing the Silicon Valley
5:29going Hong Kong rebuilding my life in
5:31Asia and then kind of getting sucked
5:33back into that world when uh the case
5:36sort of blew up and all the
5:39litigation and the indictments and uh
5:42the media kind of picked up on the case
5:44so so it's a very different version of
5:46me feel very liberated very at peace and
5:50it's a good place to be after this very
5:53long 10e experience it's a timeline we
5:57relate to yeah yeah a similar timeline
6:01for us and I'm so glad that you you can
6:03say that now that I think about it when
6:04we first started emailing which was over
6:07a year ago you're like I'd love to but
6:09we got to wait for the trial which is
6:11now all done so yay for that but let's
6:14go back to the beginning I'm not sure
6:16how much of our podcast you're aware of
6:17but our format is is pretty standard in
6:19terms of like what Drew people in and
6:22what the red flags were and how they got
6:23out this is not your standard cult but
6:26definitely a lot of cult-like behavior
6:28cult detac itics but tell us back at the
6:31beginning what did you think you were
6:33signing up for and what Drew you to
6:35Elizabeth Holmes if you don't mind
6:37rewinding the clock a little bit Yeah
6:39the early days the good days you know
6:41the the days where yeah the good days
6:43everything looks like it's going to be
6:45rainbows and butterflies I think their
6:47early draw for homes I always I always
6:50trying and contextualize for people the
6:52kind of the Silicon valy at that time
6:54too so I started Theos as my first job
6:58out of college so I was 22 years old
7:01just graduated from UC
7:03Berkeley and was kind of star eyed
7:08around homes and the fact that she was
7:11this female entrepreneur dropped out of
7:15Stanford age 19 to start at that time a
7:19revolutionary tech company where she was
7:22really trying to provide less painful
7:25more affordable more accessible blood
7:27Diagnostics people right I was super
7:30bought into her really bought into the
7:32vision and really bought into the hype
7:34of the Silicon Valley I think it was one
7:36of the few kind of gems that was kind of
7:40blossoming in the economy at that time
7:42because for the most part being in
7:44University during that time it was all
7:46talk of how the recession hit the
7:50entirety of the United States so hard no
7:52one was getting jobs uh no one wanted to
7:55be of course involved in finance or this
7:58industry or that IND industry but Tech
8:01seemed to be this new industry that was
8:04generating all of these cool companies
8:06that everyone wanted to be a part of and
8:08was managing to still at least
8:11financially perform well amongst all of
8:13this Devastation that had happened and
8:16in the sort of financial recession so in
8:18those days kind of like seeing all of
8:21this right seeing her seeing the tech
8:23seeing the hype of being a part of what
8:26felt like a a change in the course of
8:29time of this kind of like Dow Financial
8:32landscape to this like land of
8:34opportunity really got me excited and
8:37and kind of bought into wanting to work
8:39for Theos wanting to be a part of tech
8:42and wanting to kind of be on this
8:44mission to be a part of you know a
8:47revolutionary company how far in was
8:50Theos at the time like how old was the
8:52company at that point so the company was
8:54fairly young it was fairly young and
8:57fairly old I suppose you could say so it
8:59been around for about 10 years and there
9:02wasn't much information about the
9:03company so they had raised a fair amount
9:05of capital so in the hundreds of
9:07millions and they had a stack board as
9:10many people know you know they had Henry
9:12Kissinger and and George Schultz and all
9:15these political figures kind of in there
9:18but there wasn't a lot of info about
9:21what was going on aside the fact that
9:23there was this medical device that she
9:25had developed in order to convert blood
9:28diagnostics from stick in the vein
9:30versus a stick in the finger right like
9:32to collect all the the blood device so
9:35it was a around for about 10 years the
9:40size of it was maybe about 100 200
9:42people at that time it wasn't a baby but
9:45it was it was still fairly new in terms
9:48of being in the public eye and people's
9:50interest in kind of you know what is the
9:53secretive company doing that seems to
9:55have this ambitious vision and these big
9:58goals you don't have to tell the whole
9:59story because it's really out there in
10:01so many formats but there's clearly a
10:04pattern and I was looking at my my notes
10:06from when I watched it the first time
10:08even before we had the podcast of all
10:09the similarities between Nexium and
10:12Theos and the patterns there but for you
10:15what were some of the first red flags
10:17the potential issues that you saw before
10:19you left I think the first thing that
10:21was kind of strange was the fact that
10:23there was such a lack of information
10:25about what was happening internally and
10:27that there was this real emphasis on
10:30secrecy of competitors are going to come
10:34after us if we share any Trade Secrets
10:37the fact that there was so much that was
10:39Hush Hush seemed a bit strange and I had
10:44kind of written that off especially
10:45being really young of oh well they're
10:48probably working with the military or
10:51they're working with the government and
10:53maybe there's some kind of Rhyme or
10:56Reason for why you're secretive because
10:57that is a place in a domain where you
11:00tend to have acceptable secrecy or
11:03wanting to keep things kind of quiet but
11:05later did I find out that that was
11:07actually a giant red flag you know not
11:10wanting to have
11:11transparency in any facet of the
11:14business is a is typically a giant red
11:18flag another thing like later on and it
11:23was hard to really identify while I was
11:26working for the company CU it was quite
11:28cool was how young people were so a lot
11:31of people were just like me recent grads
11:33out of college didn't have a lot of
11:35experience in the Working World at all
11:38full stop not even in Diagnostics or
11:41health care or this sort of really
11:43specialized field but really just didn't
11:45have very much work experience at all
11:48and we're being put
11:49into situations where we're given
11:52responsibility that we shouldn't have
11:54probably had ownership over and I think
11:58seeing that there were a lot of us who
12:01just didn't really know what was going
12:04on or had any background context into
12:08the healthcare field being the primary
12:11people at the front lines dealing with
12:13this technology and dealing with
12:16resulting out patients and sort of all
12:18these other Shady practices that were
12:20kind of going on was a bit of a red flag
12:23of like why why why we have so many
12:25young people do you think that was
12:27intentional do you think that was
12:29strategy on her part so it was weird it
12:31was like there were two strategies going
12:33on it was like at the investment
12:34strategy it's like let's get people who
12:37are way older where they don't have the
12:40Insight in scope around what the
12:43technology is that they're actually
12:45investing in so they can't ask the right
12:47questions I did notice that and then at
12:49the other Converse side on the side of
12:52actually working for the company there
12:54was a whole bunch of young staff who
12:57equally you know they were smart enough
13:00to be able to ask questions on the
13:02daytoday of what we're doing but then
13:05didn't have the sort of full perspective
13:07of well how does this really Stack Up in
13:10comparison to other types of
13:12technologies that exist in the world
13:14today or other types of healthcare
13:16institutions that exist today because
13:18they didn't have that primary background
13:20of of being able to analyze that and so
13:23I think it was by Design I think it was
13:27by Design and even I'll give you an
13:29example there's a special position
13:31called a clinical lab scientist that
13:34essentially approves if a patient sample
13:36is acceptable or not and what they would
13:39do is they would stick these cls's
13:42instead of putting them in the
13:44laboratory where all these experimental
13:46methodologies were kind of happening
13:48they would stick them in a separate
13:50office and have them sit there just
13:53being exposed to the numbers but not
13:55actually seeing how any of these numbers
13:57were developed until
13:59they could be trusted to be able to go
14:03into the laboratory where all these
14:04experimental methodologies were going on
14:07so that was very clear to me when it was
14:09like why we've hired all these people
14:13we've hired all of these qualified
14:15people but none of them are in the lab
14:17side by side with me and what was the
14:19explanation for that is because oh they
14:23need to be trusted first whether they
14:26can actually view the technology that
14:28we've been operating on patients this
14:30whole time so that that was a pretty
14:32clear sign that oh this is this is
14:34deliberate this is deliberate and again
14:37when you're young like how I was young I
14:39was you know 22 at that point
14:41instinctually you're like something's
14:43not quite right here but your framing of
14:47it is also not oh they're doing
14:50something nefarious or malevolent or oh
14:52they're doing this because they're
14:55trying to create an environment in which
14:58people aren't able to ask the critical
15:01questions that could get them in trouble
15:03you know that's that's not the line of
15:05thought particularly it seems with the
15:08cache and the buyin that she was able to
15:11establish you know and I can relate to
15:13this and tell me if this is what was
15:15going on was she's been vetted by people
15:17far more experienced than me like I must
15:20be kind of in a safe environment in
15:22spite of my instincts which I I can
15:24relate to so how did you if that's
15:26accurate how did you reconcile that and
15:28what was the process of having those
15:30instincts and then that got you to
15:32ultimately do what you did it's a long
15:34question a long question but I think
15:35it's it's a very normal one right you
15:37have that gut feeling you're like
15:38something's not right here I'm also you
15:41know I was trained as a researcher and a
15:43scientist so what is the fundamentals of
15:46being a good scientist is being
15:47skeptical but not only skeptical of
15:50other people but skeptical of yourself
15:53and I think being in the position of one
15:55very little power being quite young and
15:59and in addition to that looking as you
16:02said at all of these powerful people
16:05that have these stacked resumés that are
16:07coming from some of the best
16:09institutions in the world saying this
16:12works uh we bought into this we've
16:15invested tens of millions of dollars
16:17into this it's you know at least in that
16:20position my first expectation is you
16:24might Erica you might be doing something
16:26wrong here like there might be it's
16:29almost like an internal gas lighting it
16:31is an internal gas lighting and now I
16:33can identify that that's what was going
16:34on like oh ER did an immense amount of
16:38gaslighting yourself throughout that
16:40experience because it just it doesn't
16:43add up right it doesn't add up but the
16:46beauty of also being from The Sciences
16:49is at the end of the day if you gather
16:51enough evidence and because we were
16:53doing things that like at the end of the
16:56day you can't fight the numbers and so
16:59for the type of testing we were doing
17:02you know if if I'm doing a a sample test
17:07this is basically just comparing okay I
17:10know this one sample has you know 10
17:14anagrams per Mill of vitamin D in it and
17:17I run it through my machine and if it
17:19comes out 500 we've got a problem right
17:23so it was very straightforward in many
17:25cases to recognize like oh yeah you know
17:2910 10 doesn't equal 500 and so through
17:32the process of being able to uh
17:35accumulate a lot of that information it
17:37made me a bit more confident to mobilize
17:40on being able to come forward and speak
17:43up and before we get to that key moment
17:45which we obviously want to hear about on
17:47your intake form you said you wouldn't
17:49mind riffing on some of the culty
17:52practices and you mentioned like this is
17:54this is the key point in the dock right
17:55on the inventor Out For Blood and
17:57Silicone Valley you said that you been
17:59drinking the Kool-Aid which just a
18:00little note for our audience is was
18:02actually flavorade which is it's a
18:04common misnomer but we everyone knows
18:06what you're talking about drinking the
18:08Kool-Aid from Jonestown reference how
18:10did you get to that reference like in in
18:12other words you've clearly seen the
18:14correlations you're on our little bit
18:15culty podcast what were some of the
18:17things you'd want to riff about in terms
18:19of the other things you saw that were
18:20culty so initially I have to credit
18:24actually one of my colleagues for
18:26pointing that out to me and it was
18:28really in the way she observed me
18:31talking about the company that she's
18:33like hey don't drink the Kool-Aid too
18:35fast and then that was like a moment of
18:37realization and it was one the Adoration
18:41for Elizabeth Holmes of like wow look at
18:43her she's so impressive she started this
18:46company she's brought us all here you
18:48know we have all these fancy machines
18:50and all these people from Elite
18:53institutions and how special is it to be
18:56a part of this company that isn't just
18:59pulling together all of this money and
19:01all of these people but also has this
19:04beautiful Vision in addition to that
19:07right and I think she could almost see
19:09The Gleam in my eye of how bought in I
19:14was and how convinced I was around what
19:19we were trying to accomplish that it was
19:21a bit of a moment of Reckoning for me of
19:24like oh is this some sort of magical
19:28thinking or just euphoria that I have
19:32around being a part of this organization
19:35that seems to kind of check the boxes
19:38for me of of what I want out of life
19:40what I want out of my career what I want
19:42to propagate and see happen in society
19:45your idealism was leveraged my idealism
19:48was leveraged it was leveraged
19:50transcendental exactly so I really
19:52credit this colleague for that that she
19:55was the one who made that comment and
19:57saw that in me and made me it gave me
20:00that moment of reflection of like oh do
20:02I have some sort of bizarre glaze in my
20:06eye around being a part of the company
20:09and it was a good wakeup call in certain
20:11ways because then it made me a little
20:13more astute when you're doing certain
20:15actions and you're looking at your
20:17experiments that are failing every day
20:20and you're being asked despite all these
20:23failures to up the ante in terms of how
20:26many patients you run or uh how many
20:30different people you influence or how
20:32far you move the needle in terms of you
20:35know what you think is acceptable in
20:38terms of things this is very nerdy but
20:40like data Integrity right making sure
20:43that are we not manipulating information
20:46in a way to make it look pretty versus
20:50having it give an accurate depiction
20:52about what's happening right and there
20:54were just these tiny little ways in
20:56which we were constantly pushing the
20:59needle of what Integrity looked like and
21:03I'm sure you guys have seen this too
21:05that it's it doesn't start off super
21:07strong they're not like
21:09hey give me you know I I want you to
21:14just basically give me a number that
21:16sounds good right they don't kind of
21:18come out the door saying that but it's
21:20just these subtle ways that they store
21:23sort of get you to slightly modify what
21:28you think is acceptable over time right
21:31it's like the compass gets turned in a
21:33way yeah that probably made me realize
21:37okay there's there's some other cultural
21:39Dynamics going on here in addition to
21:42more puppet mastering that's occurring
21:45than maybe I'm conscious
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22:41local communities at Macy's the Frankies
22:44were a picture perfect influencer family
22:47but everything wasn't as it seemed I
22:50just had a 12-year-old boy show up here
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23:02Frankie the world of Mormonism and a
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23:09listen to Infamous wherever you get your
23:14podcasts break time's over people let's
23:17get back to this episode of a little bit
23:18culty it's a good one a common question
23:21we get is do you think Keith reneer had
23:24a good idea here it went went bad
23:27whatever I I think Keith was bad from
23:30the start and he set this organization
23:32up for himself for whatever and there's
23:34lots of proof of that whatever holes he
23:36wanted to fill do you think Elizabeth
23:39set Theos up for her own holes to fill
23:43like you know well you're skipping to
23:44the end well I mean I mean I guess was
23:47there ever a product yeah in your
23:49opinion like do you know what I mean
23:51like did you ever feel like if she had
23:53started to succeed does it justify
23:55everything right like does that make
23:57sense was there ever a glimmer of like
23:59this happening ah gosh so so this is a
24:03huge loaded thing part of the trial pack
24:07in so many different ways yeah and of
24:08course in the trial there was there's
24:10there's of course my opinion and then
24:12there's like what the litigation say
24:15right when it came to was this a fraud
24:18or was this not a fraud and there's a
24:20very technical definition of what
24:22patient and wire fraud is was that the
24:24case and that was proven to be the case
24:28right that there was definitely wire
24:29fraud that occurred and that there was
24:31patient fraud that occurred of course
24:33the sentencing between uh sunny and
24:35Elizabeth had some disparities between
24:37the two of them but I think back to your
24:39earlier question you know in the case of
24:42Holmes do I believe that she was from
24:47the start trying to fill some sort of
24:50personal void 100% right was it with the
24:54malevolent intention I think it's it
24:57these types of Psych Oles are so and
25:00personalities are so hard to deconstruct
25:03because in comparison to just like
25:06almost blatant greed and blatant
25:09frauders are a little bit easier to deal
25:11with right it's like oh it's the money
25:13they're after the money but when you
25:15deal with people who seek things like
25:18power or fame or some sort of
25:22fulfillment of some lack that is hard to
25:26quantify it gets gets much more
25:29complicated absolutely and I think to a
25:33certain degree is it possible that point
25:35of care Diagnostics could and did exist
25:39at that time yes 100% can you take a
25:42finger stick and run some blood samples
25:44on it yes where Theos went wrong was you
25:48can't necessarily take a drop of blood
25:50and run hundreds of tests nor can you do
25:54that in one box and maybe will find some
25:59sort of technological advancement that
26:02makes that viable but Theos and where
26:05the company was was nowhere near that
26:08right there was absolutely no scientific
26:12innovation that actually happened that
26:15moved the needle of the industry in
26:18itself that we were working on right
26:20like at all at all if anything because
26:23of Theos it set back people's ability to
26:27innovate that space because people are
26:30so scared to touch
26:33Diagnostics because they don't want to
26:36probably lose face for being involved in
26:39another failure around Diagnostics that
26:43really it I think created more of a risk
26:47aversion and almost over excessive risk
26:50aversion to that space that's such a
26:53shame it's such a shame it's there's so
26:55many and I'm sure you guys had this too
26:57even even though being at the helm of of
27:00whistleblowing and stopping the case
27:03like there's still so much heartbreak
27:05that comes from that right like that
27:07idealism that they played on absolutely
27:10those ideals didn't disappear for me
27:13right yeah moral injury it's the moral
27:15injury it's the the grief and the loss
27:19and the sadness and the Betrayal uh
27:23there's so many emotions that end up
27:26coming to the Forefront of of these
27:29cases and they Ripple into so many
27:31different things Beyond just that case
27:33Exel how far off is she is it as crazy
27:36as me going to like someone and saying
27:38Hey I want to do a time machine give me
27:40hundreds of millions of dollars and then
27:42how absurd is her idea so her idea parts
27:47of it are not it's like two truths in a
27:49lifee so there are some truths there of
27:51things that you can do yeah but I think
27:54in terms of what we were doing at Theos
27:55how I compare it is that she promised
27:58everyone a Magic Carpet that could fly
28:00and delivered people a hoverboard but
28:03worse yet the hoverboard she shipped
28:06when you plug them in they explode and
28:08that's pretty much what she
28:11did so I like that that's a great
28:13metaphor that's kind of what we were
28:17what was accomplished and so wow so it
28:21was pretty far off it was pretty far off
28:23and it's hard right it's hard when you
28:25see these big machines and when people
28:27are working so hard to develop things
28:30that it's hard for people to see like
28:33well look we had all of these million
28:35dooll machines or we manufactured all of
28:37these different units it's like yeah but
28:39they don't work right that was one of
28:41the things they did in the trial where
28:42it was like okay if the company wasn't
28:45working on building this look at these
28:47stacks of papers of all these
28:49experiments that they had run to like
28:52show you that this technology was viable
28:55new it existed and it's like sure I can
28:59print out I can like write on a piece of
29:02paper that you know I did this
29:05experiment but if they all fail that
29:07doesn't mean I have a product that works
29:09right like I can run such a nonse I can
29:12run millions of experiments it doesn't
29:14seem to show a track record of progress
29:16either yeah just circling back to
29:18something you said about like the
29:20internal feeling and being overridden by
29:22the idealism I think you know one of the
29:25things we certainly saw watch in
29:26watching the doc anyway is it's also the
29:29the corporate rah rah like for lack of a
29:31better word the the songs and the
29:33Gatherings and the the hype and that
29:36aligns with what you were saying like
29:38it's you know feeling special and being
29:40part of all that and how great that must
29:41have felt sidebar calling them Eagle One
29:44and Eagle two I pretty sure we called
29:47Nancy and Keith that didn't we at
29:48certain points like one and two like it
29:50was that kind of like they'd come in
29:52together and it was just that kind of
29:54vibe if not if not called that directly
29:56it was certainly that Vibe but yes so
29:58then so getting so going from that all
30:00of those red flags what was the final
30:02straw for you when did you decide that
30:04you had to speak up and become a well I
30:06guess there's probably two points
30:07speaking up and then being dismissed and
30:11then becoming a whistleblower yeah is
30:12that accurate yeah so I had reported
30:14internally several times right of saying
30:17like something's not right here this and
30:19it wasn't like
30:21overarching something's not right here
30:24it was like this experiment this didn't
30:26work we're having problems with this
30:28type of test we having problems with
30:30this and so I had done a lot to report
30:33internally to different people within
30:35the organization but I think the big
30:39turning point for me of the fact that
30:42okay these aren't just issues that we
30:44have in the company that there's
30:45something bigger going on here is when I
30:47had a conversation with the COO of the
30:50company and I had gone into his office
30:53and basically told him I'm concerned
30:55about the issues that we're having in
30:57terms the failures of our patient test
31:01and frequency of them and the fact that
31:04when we make mistake on a patient sample
31:07we don't notify them and when I had
31:10reported these concerns to him he
31:12basically said you are a recent graduate
31:14from UC Berkeley have you ever taken a
31:17statistics class do you know anything
31:19about statistics you need to do the job
31:21I pay to do which is to process patient
31:24samples without question and so at that
31:27point I was was just shocked I was
31:28really Jarred I was like okay this isn't
31:31the case that there's some discrepancy
31:34between what the executive management
31:37knows and what's happening at the
31:38operational FL they know exactly what's
31:40going on they're just not doing anything
31:42about it and so I think that really
31:44flipped for me what type of situation I
31:47had gotten myself into you know before
31:50that I think I was still operating by
31:53the principle that you're in a startup
31:55things aren't working that's why you're
31:56hired you're here to fix the problems
31:59but at that point I realized oh no no no
32:01there's something else going on here and
32:04I talked to the board as well I gone to
32:06the board's house and had a conversation
32:08and he basically said maybe I should
32:10look for another job wow and I think
32:14after those
32:16experiences of internally reporting kind
32:19of going up every level of command
32:23basically to kind of get the truth out
32:25you know I was very disempowered I
32:27didn't know what to do I was very
32:30concerned about the fact that they were
32:32testing on patients even though it was
32:35pretty well proven that these tests
32:37weren't working even by our own like
32:39internal standards and I tell a lot of
32:43people I got lucky in the sense that I
32:45had gotten contacted by John Caro who
32:49was the main reporter who reported on
32:52the case and for me it it wasn't even a
32:55second thought it was like a breath of
32:57fresh air
32:58of oh okay there's one opportunity to
33:01get the truth out like I'm going to take
33:03it I'm going to take whatever door
33:05present itself to me to allow the truth
33:07to get out and I didn't really think
33:09twice I didn't probably do as much due
33:12diligence as I should have in terms of
33:13vetting like is this a good journalist
33:15or not and honestly before his report
33:19came out the company was so litigious
33:22that they had basically come after me
33:24threatened assuming and had private
33:27investigators following me where I was
33:29living in the bay but that was also a
33:31bit Lucky in a a strange way because it
33:35sort of allowed me to understand that I
33:37could also report to Regulators that
33:39that was an opportunity for me that The
33:41Regulators were ultimately the governing
33:45body that could shut down their ability
33:47to process patient samples and so once I
33:50figured out like oh you can do this and
33:53you can do it anonymously it was great
33:55it was kind of crazy though cuz when I
33:58had first figured this out I had tried
34:01to go to San Francisco in order to walk
34:04into the office to file the report but I
34:08was so paranoid about the fact that I
34:11was being stoed and followed and that
34:13they would see me entering into the
34:15building that I ended up like pacing
34:18like a crazy person around the Streets
34:20of San Francisco like trying to see is
34:23someone following me is someone not that
34:26I like couldn't do it that first day day
34:28and so then I ended up getting a burner
34:30phone and calling them through the
34:31burner phone and then figuring out okay
34:34this is how you file a report and took
34:36me a while to file the report I had a
34:38lot of personal issues I was taking care
34:41of someone who was dying at that time so
34:43it took me a while to write out the the
34:45report then these things never happen at
34:48opportune times like a really crazy
34:51summer for me but that's kind of what
34:53led me to speaking up was a mixture of
34:56the desire to just say they need to stop
34:59testing on patients and also a bit of
35:02luck in terms of kind of bumping into
35:05the right people who sort of helped me
35:07build my awareness of what were the
35:09opportunities for me to allow the truth
35:11to get out right like you don't walk
35:13around 23 years old like oh I'm going to
35:15knock on the door of the Wall Street
35:17Journal and have them hold this company
35:21I used to worked for accountable you
35:22don't walk around at 43 years old doing
35:26that so
35:28yeah that's that's something that you
35:31think that you're ever going to be
35:32presented with especially when you
35:34started off like like really it's it's
35:37crazy I really thought Theos was going
35:39to be the company I was going to work
35:40for the next 10 years of my life like I
35:44was that bought in to what we were
35:45trying to do and then next thing you
35:47know you're having to kind of change
35:49course one thing Sarah and I learned is
35:52you don't get to pick and choose how and
35:55why you're going to stand for what
35:56you're going to stand for
35:58why not walk away at that point for you
36:00you know in my case I knew what I stood
36:02for when I joined the company like I
36:04stood for the fact that I wanted to
36:07figure out how to leverage technology to
36:09provide affordable and accessible
36:11Healthcare to people I knew that right
36:14like I went in very clear-minded very
36:17clearheaded that this is how I wanted to
36:20spend my life in my career and I think
36:25because our actions were so counter that
36:28we were lying to patients we were
36:30telling people they may or may not have
36:33had cancer when we we didn't even trust
36:35these tests like people internally the
36:38organization would get their blood test
36:40results on The Edison devices and like
36:42freak freak out because they were just
36:45having such like false reports on
36:47everything and so I think that made it
36:51easy even though it was scary and hard
36:53to kind of keep pushing through because
36:55I I did have a very clear understanding
36:58of why I joined the company what I stood
37:02for how I wanted to spend my time how I
37:04wanted to spend my career why did I
37:06study the Sciences why did I do all of
37:09these different things it was it was
37:11very black and white in many ways for me
37:15and made it all the easier I think what
37:17makes it complicated was actually the
37:20circumstance of like are you actually
37:22right about this or not you know is this
37:25the case that you're actually right
37:27about these issues that are going on and
37:29because of my lack of experience and
37:31because of the amount of intimidation
37:34and gaslighting and just kind of like
37:38Twilight Zone environment of a workplace
37:41that was where like all of a sudden you
37:45know up is right and 20 is 76 and just
37:51all this this wild stuff that's what was
37:53the complicated part I think for me it
37:56was like the the mission the principle
37:58the what to stand for very clear very
38:01easy it was are you actually right about
38:05this and I think also I didn't want to
38:07be right about this yeah it's so gross
38:11right like when you really look at it
38:14you're like this is so awful that I
38:17almost want to be delusional about
38:20what's happening because the reality of
38:23what we're actually doing is so painful
38:26I totally agree
38:28counter what I signed up for that it's
38:31just even your personal resistance to
38:35the the truth like there are very few
38:37times in life that you want to be wrong
38:39about something this badly totally yeah
38:42we've been there for
38:46sure for more background on what brought
38:48us here check out Sarah's page turning
38:50Memoir it's called scard the true story
38:52of how I escaped Nexium the cult that
38:54bound my life it's available on Amazon
38:56Audible and at most booksto stor if you
38:58want to see that story in streaming form
39:00watch both seasons of The Vow on
39:05HBO meals bring people together but for
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39:36Maes you've heard from our sponsors now
39:38let's get back to a little bit culty
39:40shall we I totally remember doing
39:43interviews at the beginning and even
39:44still saying like this is bad right like
39:46I totally remember that feeling Al it's
39:48the opposite of what you signed up for
39:50opposite the opposite I'm glad you guys
39:52say that because that was something I
39:54struggled with a lot and I think other
39:56people struggled with me a lot where I
39:58don't think they understand what it's
40:00like being in that environment so when
40:02you come out of it and you talk about it
40:04for them as a objective sear of the
40:07circumstance they're able to say no this
40:09is clearly wrong but because you were
40:11immersed and inundated and there's so
40:14many emotions and there's so many
40:17relationships and and experiences and
40:20and different things that are involved
40:22in that process it's very
40:25challenging to have that objective view
40:29even being outside of the case even
40:31though you know it's 10 years later for
40:32Me Maybe not quite 10 years in terms of
40:35the actual act but seven years I don't
40:38really listen to any of the interviews
40:40that I do frankly but I know in terms of
40:43seeing a younger version of myself that
40:45it was hard for me sometimes to grasp
40:48with like but this is wrong or having to
40:50justify my actions or even ask for just
40:55some sort of assuredness
40:57and and that's weird like I look back at
41:00that and I'm like how did they do that
41:02to me your own character is in question
41:04to yourself mhm part of the bizarre
41:07thing because I felt my character wasn't
41:10in question until I saw something I'm
41:12like oh whoa I'm actually aligned with
41:15something that was almost was
41:17perpetrating yeah I had to reconcile
41:19that and that was a gymnastics I had to
41:20kind of and admit you're a victim and
41:22you got ConEd and all that stuff messes
41:25with your pride what was it like for you
41:27to have all of this like in the public
41:29space cuz there's been a documentary
41:31there's the Hulu series and there is we
41:33haven't watched it yet to be just so you
41:35know we didn't have time to watch watch
41:36it there but I did see that there's a
41:38character of you right so I haven't
41:40watched it either so so don't feel bad
41:44cuz cuz technically there is a character
41:46of me and I haven't watched probably
41:48best not to I feel I don't know yeah it
41:50was a little too soon for me it's been
41:54how do I explain this journey it's
41:56complicated it's very very complicated
41:59my initial intentions were always to be
42:01anonymous because I loved my simple life
42:04I was totally fine being in the
42:06background working on my projects and
42:09just having some level of anomid and
42:13that was valuable to me but what ended
42:15up happening is I got subpoenaed for a
42:17court case the judge ended up releasing
42:20my deposition into the public record and
42:23then my name got out the media picked up
42:26on it and were kind of misquoting some
42:28of the things that I had said and so at
42:30that point people said Erica if you
42:32don't control your story other people
42:34will and I was like what what does that
42:37mean right and at this point I'm like 25
42:3926 and I'm like oh God here we go and so
42:43that opened the door to a very
42:45complicated process of like well who do
42:48I engage with how do I engage with them
42:51and and also you're traumatized right so
42:54you're like trying to make these
42:56decisions
42:57and I was so young and it's not like
43:00it's hard to explain to people this type
43:02of Fame because it's not like oh I've
43:04worked the past 20 years to become an
43:07astronaut it finally happened and
43:09everyone wants to hear about it it's
43:11like I was in this horrible circumstance
43:15that was like semi in my control but
43:18largely out of my control I made it out
43:21kind of okay but I don't feel okay and
43:24now everyone wants to talk to me about
43:26it
43:27and it's inspirational on one end and
43:30it's sad on the other and like how do
43:33you negotiate that and I had largely
43:37spent my journey in avoidance of like
43:40that's that one horrible thing that
43:41happened to you at work at time we're
43:43never going to talk about it we're
43:44packing our bags we're moving to Hong
43:46Kong we've completely changed careers I
43:48went from being a scientist to working
43:50in Venture Capital right like I had
43:52really distan myself from the whole
43:55experience I was like we're not going to
43:56deal with
43:57and then I had to like confront all that
43:59on the public stage and and so now like
44:02I said you're seeing this sort of like
44:03healed version of mine but it was it was
44:05very complicated very challenging has it
44:07come with blessings 100% has it come
44:10with challenges 100% And so even to this
44:13day I haven't really been able to kind
44:16of sort it all out except with
44:19acceptance of like that's what happened
44:21that this is the way it worked out you
44:23just have to sort of accept that and of
44:26course there's a way in which you can
44:28kind of re with all of these cases they
44:31die down and they go by the wayside like
44:34with everything in life but it was quite
44:37complicated for me cuz I was so young I
44:39didn't know how to negotiate it I am a
44:40pretty open and transparent person in
44:43general but you have that level of being
44:47exposed it was just a world I wasn't
44:51prepared for or you know didn't know how
44:54to negotiate I think like other people
44:57might have I wish we had been friends at
45:00the time yeah yeah well I mean I I was I
45:04went through everything you just said I
45:06just wish I could have imparted it so
45:07you didn't have to go through it well
45:09what you just said in the beginning was
45:11the reason I got involved if you don't
45:12tell your story someone else will and
45:14they're not they're going to butcher
45:15it and so that was the only reason I did
45:19The Vow and any of that stuff I wasn't
45:21particularly interested in getting
45:22attention not based on my
45:24Merit but based on something that
45:26happened to me but truly like Erica her
45:28her Merit and I heard somebody I got
45:30goosebumps when I when I heard the
45:32narrator of the Dropout podcast I don't
45:33know if you listened to that summarizing
45:35the trial just to say that she had
45:37remarkable describe to you like that the
45:40whole reason that we're having the trial
45:41is because of charact this quote
45:42characters like Erica Chung who has
45:45remarkable integrity and going back to
45:47like your desire for data Integrity your
45:49integrity is the reason this has all
45:52come to light and also to you nippy you
45:54do have Merit in yeah we all [ __ ] up
45:56you
45:57I'm not seeking to minimize that aspect
45:59of it but I'm simply saying when I
46:01signed up to do this and when I've
46:03gotten attention for something it's
46:04based on something I've set out to do
46:06not something that happened to me you
46:08know and I don't mean to minimize like
46:10you know how we handled it and how we
46:11turned it into a positive and how we did
46:13the right thing in any shape or form but
46:15it was uncomfortable to go through that
46:17and then you know to your point people
46:19don't necessarily understand it and
46:20you're reconciling to understand it
46:21while you're having conversations about
46:23it that's a weird it's a weird thing to
46:25do yeah I think it was strange too cuz
46:27there was litigation that was going on
46:30like that's rare when that happens where
46:32it's like the
46:34reporting happened during the downfall
46:38right the
46:39litigation happened while all of this
46:42was public versus it wasn't a closed
46:45case that people took all the
46:47information and then decided to do
46:49something with it and I think that
46:52generated an immense amount of paranoia
46:54for me an immense amount of feelings of
46:58lack of safety and even you know to this
47:01day like I haven't signed a lease for
47:03the last eight nine years of my life
47:06right like
47:07I have like floated about there are all
47:09these weird things that I do now that
47:13are probably a consequence of the like
47:16just deep lack of safety that I felt I
47:19had because of just the amount of
47:21exposure that was occurring
47:25simultaneously with all of these like
47:27other aspects and so I think that was
47:29the uniqueness of this case was it was
47:32just so there was so much attention on
47:35it while it was still unfolding so I
47:38think that was what made it strange and
47:40I think you know seren is the same thing
47:42right when it happens I think anyone who
47:45goes through these traumatic experiences
47:47you have to have that hard conversation
47:49with yourself around like well what now
47:53what now and the best you can do is just
47:56take that process it accept it grapple
47:59with it grieve It Whatever process you
48:02need to go through and ideally if you
48:05can say how do we transform this in
48:07something that can be beneficial to
48:09others how can we transform this in
48:11something that can have some sort of
48:16rebirth out of the circumstance and and
48:20Sarah to your to your point you know one
48:22of the big helpful things that helped me
48:24during the trial was actually my friend
48:26ship with Cynthia Cooper who was the
48:28Worldcom
48:29whistleblower and I don't think I would
48:32have made it out of that trial without
48:34her guidance and mentorship and just
48:36sheer kindness and perspective that's so
48:39great of it's hard it's difficult it's
48:43not going to stop being difficult until
48:45it's over so just sit in the
48:50discomfort and that's a message I needed
48:52to hear and I needed an ally of someone
48:56of course has her own unique experience
48:59you guys of course have had your own
49:00unique experience but there are
49:02commonalities right dealing with these
49:05types of kind of culty organizations or
49:08Cults themselves or or just groups that
49:12kind of create these circumstances for
49:15people that they feel um they're a part
49:17of this thing but also trying to escape
49:20out of in in different ways so that kind
49:23of opportunity to share with people and
49:27also be an ally to other people who will
49:30likely be in these circumstances has
49:32been immensely powerful for me it was
49:35powerful for Cynthia as well to help me
49:37through that because yeah it's
49:39unfortunate when you are in these
49:41circumstances they're so sad and hard
49:44but the best you can do is grow out of
49:46them absolutely I have to tell you that
49:48you know we could do a whole episode on
49:49how culty Elizabeth Holmes is and like
49:51you know analyze her behavior and all
49:52that stuff but this episode for us is
49:54really about the Journey of a
49:55whistleblower and there's a lot of
49:58people who listen to this podcast who
49:59are in Cults or debating leaving Cults
50:01or have left and debating whether to
50:03whistleblow and we haven't we haven't
50:05really done like a dedicated episode on
50:07that do you have any advice for future
50:10whistle whistleblowers on this episode
50:12or anything you would done differently
50:13that gets you can glean there for us
50:15yeah I think the biggest thing is build
50:18out a support network that's the biggest
50:19thing think of who are the Allies that
50:21you're going to need and ideally there
50:23are people who if you have allies
50:27within the group that you're a part of
50:29that's great but also external you know
50:31a lot of lawyers with whistleblowers
50:33work on contingency and even if you
50:35can't hire them maybe have a starter
50:38conversation around what's kind of
50:40occurring there are lots of these
50:41agencies and nonprofits that you can and
50:44advocacy groups that you can turn to if
50:47you have a question you know some people
50:49don't have strong family support or
50:51friends support but at the same time
50:53it's that we all have at least even if
50:55it's a barice even if it's someone you
50:58would be surprised at the kindness of
51:00strangers when you tell them I'm really
51:02in a bind I need to start somewhere to
51:05get help like really try and formulate
51:08that support network because it's going
51:10to be really crucial throughout the
51:12Journey of whatever you decide to do you
51:14know I work a lot on The Whistleblower
51:17advocacy side now with people like the
51:19signals Network that deals with media
51:22whistleblowers and Tech whistleblowers
51:24there's lots of good nonprofits out
51:25there and there are lots of resources
51:27out there that people can kind of turn
51:29to but I think personally for me it's
51:31like making sure you have a wide range
51:35of people that you can kind of turn to
51:37for questions and emotional support and
51:40uh just perspective on what's happening
51:43and it's not always easy to build and I
51:45know it's hard but uh that's I think
51:47really crucial for these types of cases
51:49and Circumstance couldn't agree more we
51:51have a portion of our episode we talk
51:53about the thing that chaps your ass the
51:54most about the whole experience and this
51:55more the content like the thing that's I
51:58rolly nipp for him it's the voice
52:00putting you on the spot what's the thing
52:02for you uh that gets me bothered yeah
52:04that's one way of putting it it gets me
52:07bothered portion of our podcast it's
52:10optional and it could be about the press
52:11it could be about the trial it could be
52:13about the experience itself it could be
52:15anything you know the thing that I think
52:18bothers me about the voice is everyone
52:21and this is when you know you have a
52:22cult of personality everyone fixated on
52:26the voice for so long that it was almost
52:29like people ignored all the other
52:32egregious things that she had done and
52:34were so hyper fixated on The Voice and I
52:37was like what is going why are people
52:38just paying attention to this like
52:41quality that she has versus the fact of
52:44all the actions that she had done and it
52:46was really it was really strange to me
52:48to kind of kind of see that that it was
52:51like oh yeah people are more concerned
52:53with this sort of like image based stuff
52:55than they are about like what are the
52:57actual actions of what's occurring and
53:00that was a big shock for me yeah I mean
53:01it's certainly one of the first things I
53:02noticed is just something that was weird
53:04I was like it was in congruous like
53:06Keith's volleyball yeah Keith did a lot
53:08of things that were like a Persona
53:11especially that was one correlation I
53:12made all so both had this faux
53:13humbleness like this pretend
53:15humanitarian thing yeah I think that
53:17would have been another thing that
53:18really bothered me was the kind of like
53:21the lying around the patient experience
53:25in her uncle like to create more empathy
53:28and it was like oh this is when you know
53:30you're dealing with a particular type of
53:33dark Triad individual is when you are
53:38basically lying about personal stories
53:40in order to Garner more attention from
53:43others and that was that was a bit
53:46jarring and surprising for me yeah
53:48highly highly manipulative well we loved
53:50having you on this podcast it's been in
53:53in the works for so long and it's really
53:56come full circle for us and such an
53:57honor to meet you I really think what
53:59you did was so brave and you know we
54:01want all only the best for you next
54:04thanks Sarah thanks nippy thank you
54:06Erica you like what you hear please do
54:09give us a rating a review And subscribe
54:11on iTunes or wherever you listen every
54:13little bit helps us get this cult
54:15awareness content out there smash that
54:17subscribe button you know what to
54:21do hope you liked our chat with Erica I
54:23think we could have kept her on the line
54:24for another hour for sure of all it was
54:26midnight for her so she had to go but I
54:28think was nice of her to do that really
54:30nice we're going to have to try to get
54:31her back on for our patreon subscribers
54:33and get into the weeds of the story and
54:34the thing about the Elizabeth Holmes
54:36story is we got to ask are there more
54:38Elizabeth Holmes being nurtured right
54:40now at some startup somewhere great
54:42question and what are the effects of
54:43like people are like so many startups do
54:46start that way with a vision of
54:47something that's like has never been
54:49done before and people are going to be
54:50like this is another thonos and also
54:53think of the people she had like why
54:55would you think Henry kiss do you know
54:57what I mean like all the credibility
54:59that was leveraged and like it should
55:01shine a light on people to ask different
55:03questions and and what we put our trust
55:05in at the very least this time we live
55:07in is just ripe for Brilliance and it's
55:09ripe for Bad actors to take advantage of
55:11the cult of personality Fame and the
55:13need for being the next Steve Jobs which
55:15is clearly something she was aspiring to
55:17do and speaking of Steve Jobs we want
55:19you to be the next Steve Jobs of our
55:21patreon come find us over there at
55:23patreon.com littlebit culty starting at
55:26at just $5 a month you get ad free
55:28listening and free bonus episode and the
55:31perks just add up from there all the way
55:33up to we'll send you care package full
55:35of some culty goodies until next time
55:38don't take a job at a place where
55:39someone at the top is a mysterious
55:41genius who wears the same black
55:42turtleneck every day it's just a big red
55:44flag huge see you next time
55:47[Music]
55:50s I'm hanging on to with my
55:54love if I let go of it all I could leave
55:59but I know I
56:01[Music]
56:03won't thanks for listening everyone
56:06we're heading over to
56:07patreon.com a littleit culty now to
56:10discuss this episode in the meantime
56:12dear listener please remember this
56:14podcast is solely for General
56:16informational educational and
56:17entertainment purposes it's not intended
56:20as a substitute for real medical legal
56:22or therapeutic advice for cult recovery
56:25resources and to learn more about
56:26seeking safely in this culty world check
56:29out a littleit cy.com culty resources
56:31and don't miss Sarah's Ted Talk called
56:34how cult literate AR great stuff a
56:36little bit culty is a trace 120
56:38production executive produced by Sarah
56:40Edmonson and Anthony nippy ases in
56:42collaboration with producer will
56:43retherford at citizens of sound and our
56:45co-creator and show chaplain bodyguard
56:48Jess Temple tardy our show writer is Hol
56:50zedra and our theme song cultivated is
56:52by John Bryant
57:02[Music]
57:04that's the sound of your current hype
57:06level at the gas pump but brace yourself
57:08for something fuel nominal because unlet
57:1188 is about to take the hype to a whole
57:14new level unlet 88 is cheaper cleaner
57:18and greener than regular unlet plus it's
57:20homegrown making unlet it 88 the Clear
57:23Choice at the pump and totally worth the
57:25hype so Pump It Up with unlet 88 brought
57:29to you by Iowa corn

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