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AYAHUASCA : HALLUCINATIONS OU AUTRES MONDES ? CE JURISTE RACONTE CE QU’IL A TRAVERSÉ — Transcript

by Point Zéro - Rémi · 12,316 words · 1,831 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00A hallucination is, OK, I see an animal
0:02here, and in fact, the animal isn't
0:03really there. And then there are what
0:06we call entheogens, which are more of
0:08an expression in imagery. Ayahuasca was
0:12part of my healing journey, which
0:13allowed me to discover new worlds. When
0:16you open your field of consciousness,
0:18all your chakras open, and at some
0:19point, you don't know what entities
0:21might enter. It is not necessarily
0:22something positive that will come in.
0:23In my first Santo Daime ceremony,
0:25something actually happened during the
0:27ritual. I fell down as if dead. I was
0:29as pale as a corpse. For me, my way of
0:31finding God is within the heart. It is
0:33the heart, because the heart is our
0:35best doctor. It's the one that heals;
0:38he spat a kind of Agua de Florida on
0:40people's crowns, and he saw entities
0:42coming out of the top of their heads. I
0:46felt like a light descending, a light
0:48that wasn't in the usual spectrum,
0:50coming to heal that. And I am delighted
0:59to welcome Olivier Quéron to the show
1:01today. Olivier, thank you very much for
1:03being with us today.
1:04>> Thank you. Thank you, Rémy, for your
1:06invitation.
1:09>> So today, we are going to explore a
1:10subject that is quite different from
1:11what I usually explore on the podcast,
1:13but one that interests me quite a bit.
1:16I've done a fair amount of research on
1:18my own, and I think it's time to share
1:19that with the community. Specifically,
1:22everything concerning ancestral
1:23medicinal plants. You have quite a bit
1:26of experience, but before we really get
1:28into the heart of the matter, and in
1:30particular ayahuasca, before we dive
1:33into the subject, could you talk a
1:35little bit about your background and
1:37what led you to discover this plant and
1:39work with it?
1:41>> Yeah. Well, it really happened in
1:45stages, to talk a little bit about my
1:48youth. You see, I am the eldest of a
1:51large family, five children, and I was
1:54always the one who had to set the
1:56example, you know. And so I didn't
2:00really allow myself to be who I truly
2:03was, and little by little, a kind of
2:06mask was built where I existed mainly
2:09through the eyes of others. But at the
2:13same time, I was someone quite
2:14religious because I was very interested
2:16in it. Well, I was raised in
2:19traditional Catholicism, but in a
2:20Catholicism that was very
2:22guilt-inducing. At any rate, that’s
2:25how I received it. Uh, well you know,
2:28back then, there was no internet yet,
2:30and I remember, well, at 10 years old,
2:32I was looking through my grandmother's
2:35library and I stumbled upon a missal,
2:37you see, written in the 50s, and as I
2:39opened it, I saw "mortal sin, mortal
2:40sin." So, I thought, my God, is, is
2:44this what God is? Is that it? Exactly.
2:48So, that's, that's a bit how I, I grew
2:52up. And since I was someone quite
2:55sensitive too, uh, I, I was in an
2:57all-boys Jesuit school, so I was
2:59sometimes a bit picked on, as they say,
3:02uh, yeah. It hasn't always been easy.
3:06And then around 20, uh, something from
3:08the unconscious wanted to surface,
3:10meaning taking off the mask and
3:12becoming who I really was, and in fact,
3:14I started experiencing what is called a
3:16bit of a dark night of the soul. Some
3:20people perhaps on your YouTube channel
3:22have come to talk about that, but it
3:25really meant entering into an isolation
3:27and a truly quite deep darkness, you
3:30know. And then what happened one night,
3:34and on top of that I was starting my
3:36professional life, I must have been 20,
3:3822, 23 years old. It's a bit as if the
3:41cork of the unconscious had popped. And
3:44I remember that night where everything
3:47was burning, actually. Uh, I was half
3:50asleep, half awake, and when I woke up
3:52in the morning, uh, there was nothing
3:54left. Uh, and plus, well, it was a time
3:59when, you know, going to see a
4:00therapist was for the sick, there was
4:02no internet, so there was no one to
4:04really explain to me what I was going
4:05through. Well, in fact, later, in the
4:09path of individuation, because Gustav
4:10Jung, he talks about all that, but well
4:12, I didn't have access to all those
4:14teachings, they only came later. And,
4:17and so little by little, uh, something
4:20happened in the dead of night, really
4:23when I was at rock bottom. Then it's a
4:27bit like, you see, you fall like into
4:29the water of a pool and then afterwards
4:31you feel that it's no longer possible
4:33to go any lower. And, and there, I was
4:37working, uh, you know, on a keyboard,
4:39and I really felt something inside me
4:42that loved me very strongly just as I
4:45was. And I knew when I connected with
4:49that that I was really going to come
4:51back up. I—I couldn't go, I couldn't
4:54go any lower, and I was lucky not to
4:56fall into alcoholism, into drugs, at
4:58least not the substances we're going to
5:00talk about. Uh, so, and then little by
5:04little, well, I started to rebuild
5:06myself, you know. The mask had fallen
5:08off, and that was the question that
5:10followed. It’s really the Socratic
5:12question, but who are you, Olivier? Uh,
5:15the Socratic question, you see, of
5:17Socrates, but—but who is Olivier,
5:20really? And that’s when I started
5:22reading obsessively. So it was Steiner,
5:25Ivanov, and especially Osho. Well, many
5:28people watching us right now will
5:31recognize those names. So everything I
5:34could get my hands on, I—I read. So
5:38that was really the first step. And the
5:43second step, I started long-term
5:45therapy because it interested me, it
5:47was a way for me to know who I was,
5:49through postural integration. You see,
5:53these are psychobody techniques derived
5:56from Reich, also Gestalt therapy, and
5:59my trainers were very much into that,
6:02so I was immersed in Jung's teachings.
6:06So that allowed me to revisit my entire
6:08family past, my relationship with Dad,
6:10with Mom, with sexuality, with money,
6:13well, anyway, that’s where I started
6:15to get interested in transgenerational
6:17memories. I went to interview my
6:20great-aunts who were still alive. So it
6:22was really a massive cleansing. And
6:25when that 5-year training ended, it
6:27took me a few years to integrate it
6:29because I felt like I was shattered.
6:33And at the same time, I discovered Zen
6:35meditation. So, I practiced the Soto
6:38Zen lineage for several years. And I
6:44felt at certain moments during
6:46meditation that I was going in circles
6:47and that it was like a movie, you see,
6:49and I couldn't get out of the movie,
6:51and I needed something stronger. And
6:55ask, and you shall receive. And in fact
6:57, that’s how ayahuasca came to me. A
7:00friend sent me a little text message
7:03saying, "Listen, there's a Padrino in
7:05the Santo Daime lineage—we'll talk
7:07about it—it's a Brazilian ritual
7:09where ayahuasca is used as a sacrament.
7:12" And so, uh, it was truly a calling,
7:16really. I think they often say with
7:19ayahuasca, it’s a calling. And, uh,
7:23so I had my first ceremony, then, of
7:26Santo Daime with ayahuasca, and
7:28actually, something happened in that
7:31ceremony. Well, I fell as if I were
7:34dead. I was as pale as a corpse, you
7:35know. I...Fortunately, some people
7:37caught me. Then I lay down on a
7:40mattress. Sometimes that can happen.
7:43And for a few seconds, I really felt a
7:46love, something that loved me a lot,
7:48you know, really very, very strong.
7:53Then I woke up, I continued the
7:55ceremony and for 3 weeks, I experienced
7:58a state of inner peace that was
8:00supernatural. I didn't really
8:03understand because I thought, is this
8:05good? Since I'm a psychotherapist, I
8:07wondered, is this decompensation? Am I
8:09losing it? Losing my connection with
8:11reality? So I still reached out to the
8:14person in charge of the ceremony who
8:16told me, listen, sometimes that can
8:18happen, but it didn't stop me from
8:20living my daily life, paying my bills.
8:23Well, handling house issues, and that
8:26lasted for 3 weeks, and then little by
8:29little I returned to normalcy, I mean,
8:32the usual. That's it. And that's how my
8:36journey with Ayahuasca began, which
8:39lasted 5 years actually, with very
8:43regular ceremonies, with many
8:46experiences. That's it. And we will
8:48undoubtedly talk about that. You might
8:50ask me some questions on that level. Uh
8:52, so that's a bit of it.
8:55>> But so, over these 5 years, if you had
8:57to give a rough estimate, how many
8:59ceremonies did you do, knowing it's not
9:02at all to be nosy, etc., but just to
9:04have some grounding and see the context
9:06of what you're going to share with us?
9:10>> So, at least once a month. I also went
9:13because, at one point after 2 years,
9:15since I am a very mental person who
9:17needs to understand things as well
9:20because I was experiencing things that
9:22are, I mean, outside the usual world.
9:25So I told myself, but wait, have other
9:27people experienced this? And that is
9:30the reason why I enrolled in a
9:32university degree in an anthropology
9:34department where I wrote a thesis on
9:36Ayahuasca, and to write this thesis I
9:38went to the Amazon for 3 months. So
9:42really to experience Ayahuasca but
9:45truly in the soil where it grows, you
9:47know, starting with Peru. So the
9:52Takiwasi center which was created by a
9:54doctor named Jacques Mabit, who treats
9:56people with addictions using Amazonian
9:58plant diets but also Ayahuasca. I
10:02stayed for 3 weeks at his center,
10:04experiencing, shall I say, everything
10:06that was also planned for addicts
10:08because I wanted to experience how it
10:10worked for that specific public. And
10:14then I left for the south of Colombia
10:17to work, or rather, to work with a
10:20shaman uh in the valley of the healers
10:25of the Sibundoy Valley. It is the
10:28valley of the healers in the Putumayo
10:30region, the Putumayo. So, I had already
10:32met him on another occasion, he is
10:34truly an artist with the plant. What he
10:37does is truly impressive. And so I
10:39stayed 3 weeks at his center in the
10:42south of Colombia, and from there I
10:46went to Brazil, in the state of Acre,
10:49to join a Santo Daime community called
10:53Mapiá, which uses Ayahuasca as a
10:56sacrament in the ritual known as Santo
11:00Daime. So, there you have it, a little
11:02bit of the
11:03>> If you had to—because we really
11:05jumped right into the subject—I don't
11:06know how much context our viewers have
11:08about what Ayahuasca actually is. Could
11:10you help us demystify what it is a
11:11little bit? What is the plant? What is
11:14this, how does it work? What is its
11:16history, where does it come from, and
11:17so on? And how is it
11:19>> used in a traditional context?
11:22>> Okay. So, the first archaeological
11:26traces of the use of Ayahuasca date
11:28back to about a little before 2,000
11:30years ago, you know. Yes, those are the
11:35first traces showing that there were
11:39Ayahuasca rituals being used, and then
11:43little by little, it permeated the
11:47traditional Amazonian culture, where
11:51many indigenous peoples began to use
11:55Ayahuasca. Now, you should know that,
12:01terminologically speaking, Ayahuasca is
12:05called a master plant. Actually, what
12:09is a master plant? It is a plant that
12:11induces altered states of consciousness
12:14. So, we could very well say that
12:15cannabis is also a master plant. We
12:17could also say San Pedro, perhaps
12:18peyote. Yes. Exactly. However, what
12:22makes Ayahuasca different is that it is
12:24called the "master plant of master
12:27plants" because it is a plant that
12:29teaches. And I can testify that—and
12:34that was my experience with Ayahuasca,
12:36not directly, but it came in the second
12:38year—at one point, a teaching arrived
12:40. So, uh, also to explain regarding the
12:45Santo Daime, because actually there are
12:47two paths, uh, for Ayahuasca. There is
12:52the traditional path, which is the
12:55shamanic path, so it has existed for
12:57millennia; previously, only the shaman
13:00took Ayahuasca, and now in our Western
13:03civilization, well, participants take
13:06it too, but it wasn't like that at the
13:09start. And then afterwards, there is
13:12another path that was born at the
13:14beginning of the 20th century under the
13:17impulse of a descendant of a black
13:20slave named Raimundo. Irineo, uh, who
13:25had an apparition at some point in the
13:27forest. He was in contact with, uh, the
13:30populations in the Amazon where he was
13:33using Ayahuasca. He had an apparition
13:36of a lady whom he first called the
13:39Mother of the Forest. Exactly. And then
13:42, since he was also Catholic, he called
13:44it, it was no doubt the Immaculate
13:45Conception in his terminology, and who
13:47told him, "I will teach you how to use
13:49Ayahuasca in a new ritual that you will
13:51call the Daime." And that's how, little
13:54by little, the doctrine of the Santo
13:57Daime was built in Brazil, with
13:59difficulties, of course, at the
14:01beginning, but which is now officially
14:03recognized by the Brazilian authorities
14:06, as a religious ritual that uses
14:08Ayahuasca in the ceremonies. Now, I
14:10haven't answered your question exactly
14:12about what the Ayahuasca plant is.
14:15Actually, Ayahuasca is the combination
14:17of two plants. You have the vine, uh,
14:21that grows in the Amazon. It's very
14:24difficult to make it grow anywhere
14:26other than the Amazon because it
14:28requires a very specific climate and
14:30humidity. So, it's the vine and another
14:34plant that contains DMT, right? Well,
14:38in general, it's what we call a leaf
14:40named Chakruna, but there can be other
14:42plants that contain DMT. And in fact,
14:45it's the alliance of these two plants.
14:48So by boiling these two plants, well,
14:50that's the mixture that allows one to
14:52obtain, I would say, the visions and
14:54the opening of consciousness with
14:56Ayahuasca. Quite simply, it's because
14:59if one were to take, for example, the
15:01Chakruna directly, well, the stomach
15:04would destroy the DMT because it is,
15:06well, in too large a quantity. But the
15:08vine actually prevents the DMT from
15:11being destroyed. Exactly. And in fact,
15:13on a legal level, that's the whole
15:15problem. It's not the vine itself that
15:18is prohibited, but the plants that
15:21contain DMT, because it is precisely
15:23listed among the substances prohibited
15:26by a convention, the 1971 United
15:29Nations Convention in Vienna. Well,
15:33that's also the legal aspect. I won't
15:34explain much more because, well, things
15:36are moving fast. So, it is legal within
15:39the context of ceremonies in some
15:41countries like Brazil, uh, I don't know
15:43which other countries. So it is legal
15:46in certain countries
15:47>> in a specific framework. Yes. Well, in
15:51Brazil within the Santo Daime framework
15:53, and obviously in its use by
15:55traditional shamans, the vegetalistas,
15:58or deep in the Amazon rainforest—
16:00obviously, it's used by the Ashaninka
16:03and various other indigenous
16:05populations in Peru as well, no problem
16:07there. In fact, Ayahuasca has been
16:11integrated into Peru's cultural
16:13heritage. Now, in the rest of the world
16:16, it's a bit more complicated. In
16:18Europe, France is the most restrictive.
16:21Though, there is currently an appeal
16:22pending before the United Nations. Well
16:24, I'm a lawyer too, I helped out a bit
16:27with the case. Uh, in Spain and
16:30Portugal, there is a high level of
16:32tolerance. Well, you can't just do
16:35anything, but it's much more tolerant.
16:38And uh, Santo Daime is also recognized,
16:40obviously under the aspect of religious
16:43freedom, because they are much more,
16:45well, focused on protecting religious
16:48freedom but in a regulated way in
16:50Quebec, and if I'm not mistaken, also
16:52in some American states, notably Oregon
16:55. That's right. Uh, you should also
16:58know that now—well, this is broader,
17:01I mean not just Ayahuasca, which is
17:04considered a psychedelic, but also
17:06other substances like psilocybin, you
17:09know, magic mushrooms and so on, which
17:12are now used in assisted
17:14psychotherapies, notably in countries
17:17like Switzerland where, for example,
17:19psilocybin is used to treat depression.
17:22That's it. I mean, since the 1971 ban,
17:25when you look at, well, Rémy, at one
17:28point in 1971, everything was lumped
17:31together. Uh, drugs like heroin,
17:35mushrooms, Ayahuasca—everything was
17:38thrown into the same category, even
17:40though there were obviously highly
17:42addictive substances like heroin,
17:45whereas psilocybin and Ayahuasca are
17:47not addictive. There is no scientific
17:50research that has demonstrated the
17:52addictiveness of these substances. But
17:54everything was lumped together. But
17:56when it was banned in 1971, you see,
17:59and then states implemented their
18:01legislation, well, with exceptions for
18:04Brazil, etc., for Ayahuasca, all
18:06university research funding was stopped
18:08even though there were promising
18:10results. I saw in the Takiwasi library
18:14in Peru, I had access to some medical
18:17and scientific literature there, that
18:19there were spectacular results with
18:21psychedelics for treating addictions,
18:23like alcohol. right. But obviously in
18:261971, well, everything was blocked.
18:29Well, it's true that there was a bit of
18:30abuse with LSD and so on. So the
18:32governments got scared. So they said, "
18:33Come on, especially the United States,
18:35let's shut it all down." Uh, and it's
18:37only now that everything is starting to
18:40re-emerge, as I said, notably in
18:42Switzerland, where there are
18:44specialized clinics where they give
18:47psilocybin. There are also projects in
18:50the United States to treat war veterans
18:52with Ayahuasca, you know. So there it
18:54is, within projects, you know. So
18:56things are moving, and there is a
18:58global organization that aims for the
19:01legalization of all these natural
19:04plants called ICEERS. which said that
19:07in 10 years, all this will be legalized
19:11, but, uh, in the hands of doctors and
19:15clinical psychologists. Which isn't a
19:18bad thing, because you shouldn't just
19:20do anything. But the problem, since the
19:23ban is general, is that many people
19:25have to hide and end up doing reckless
19:28things. Notably people who, for example
19:31, use "sky." No effect, because
19:34honestly, it's surprising, but
19:36sometimes the door to the unconscious
19:38just doesn't open. I've had friends who
19:40were in a ceremony with me who took
19:43Ayahuasca, and nothing happened, while
19:45I was already in an altered state of
19:47consciousness. That's just it; they
19:49weren't ready. But the problem is that
19:52there are people who mix it with other
19:53substances to get effects. So obviously
19:56, then it's talked about in the press,
19:57there are accidents and so on, but we
19:58don't know the context. Either people
20:00who actually have underlying
20:02schizophrenia, are psychotic, etc.,
20:04obviously, or they are on
20:05antidepressants; you must obviously not
20:08take antidepressants and Ayahuasca at
20:10the same time. So I mean, there is a
20:13security framework that needs to be put
20:16in place for things to go well. Meaning
20:19, who is guiding, what is the substance
20:23, and above all, what is the ritual.
20:27Because that is where it really must be
20:29understood, and it's good that I can
20:30also talk about that, because it
20:32applies to all substances that open the
20:34field of consciousness. You have to
20:37realize that when you open your field
20:38of consciousness, all your chakras open
20:40up, you know. And at some point, you
20:42don't know which entities are going to
20:44come in, you know. Uh, it's not
20:45necessarily something positive that's
20:47going to come in, you know.
20:48>> It's true that it's often like opening
20:49a door, opening a portal, and, uh, we
20:51don't really know what might get in.
20:53>> Exactly. That is the reason why, for
20:56example, in the Santo Daime ritual—
20:58now, it's not Catholicism, okay—there
20:59are three Hail Marys, three Our Fathers
21:01, there are the...we ask for the
21:03protection of Archangel Michael, where
21:05the framework is set up to open the
21:06door. And then, we close the door with
21:11more prayers to shut it, you see? There
21:16is an entry into these worlds, into
21:17these worlds, you know, because we, we
21:19enter other dimensions and then we
21:21close it, that's it, you know. So, you
21:24should know that in the Santo Daime,
21:26and besides, that's the importance of
21:27the, the chanting, you know. It's
21:29people who received this through
21:31channeling, and actually, it's the
21:33vibration of the chant that can also
21:35bring about inner healing, you know,
21:37old memories and so on. So, that was
21:40actually my path, since, well, I am
21:43very integrated, I mean, in the
21:45therapeutic path with all these
21:47techniques like Gestalt, postural
21:50integration too, EMDR...well, I also
21:53did a lot of EMDR where I was able to
21:56revisit past lives and so on. So, I
21:59mean, Ayahuasca for me was able to heal
22:02memories that I couldn't heal with
22:05traditional therapy. So, that's my own
22:08path, I'm not saying everyone will
22:10experience that, but Ayahuasca for me
22:15has been, has been part of my healing
22:17journey. Now, I'm not saying everything
22:20is healed, you know, it would be very,
22:22uh, I would say pretentious of me, you
22:26know, but it allowed me to discover
22:29worlds, uh, you know, because there are
22:32tons of worlds, paradises, you know,
22:34and there are many hells too. You know,
22:38I've visited both, you know. Uh, and
22:40the real difficulty, moreover, is
22:42integrating these experiences. And
22:45Jacques Mabit, who is the director of
22:47the Takiwasi center, said it very well.
22:50The danger isn't really Ayahuasca
22:52itself; it's the difficulty of
22:54integrating the spiritual experiences
22:56linked to Ayahuasca. That's where the
23:00danger is, you know. So, some people
23:02sometimes have bad trips. So, it would
23:06be interesting to see why this bad trip
23:08happened, what the setting was, and
23:10whether the substance was bought on the
23:12internet. Can you imagine, Remy, all
23:15the dangers involved in buying online?
23:18You don't know what plants have been
23:20mixed in with it. Yeah, it's just a
23:22nightmare, really. So that's something
23:25to be very vigilant about, but I mean,
23:28when the setting has been properly
23:31established and there's a possibility
23:33for follow-up afterwards—which isn't
23:36easy in the Amazon because shamans
23:38aren't psychotherapists. It's just that
23:41, in the West, it's not the same way of
23:43operating. In the West, we need to
23:45understand, to go through the mental
23:47sphere in order to integrate. So, at
23:50some point, it's not just about having
23:52the experience. The experience is 50%.
23:55The other 50%is how I integrate these
23:58experiences into my daily life. That is
24:01what will make the difference. It's
24:04very different from just traveling and
24:06having extraordinary visions. "Jesus
24:10told me" or "God told me," sure. No,
24:12but a lot of people say that, okay.
24:14Well, those are often just emanations
24:17of the ego, all of that. So, one must
24:20also be extremely vigilant about
24:21messages that arrive like that, and
24:23then at some point the person says, "
24:25This is going to change my life." No,
24:27no, that's not how it works.
24:30>> What is your understanding of what
24:32happens exactly when one is in these
24:34altered states of consciousness?
24:36Because it's true, I've heard all sorts
24:39of stories about things that have
24:41happened. Uh. The mainstream would say
24:45these are creations of the mind that
24:47took substances. There are brain
24:49connections that form a bit differently
24:50, and there you go, things happen. Uh,
24:53perhaps we have a part of the
24:55collective unconscious and the images
24:57society has projected onto us that take
24:59shape, which we then enrich and give
25:01form to. What is your understanding of
25:04it? To what extent is it an experience
25:08that the brain creates, or to what
25:10extent is it a substance that unlocks
25:13something and allows us to perceive
25:16something that is there, which we
25:18usually don't have access to?
25:20>> Perfect. So, we must distinguish
25:23between what we call hallucinogens and
25:25entheogens. An hallucination is, okay,
25:28I see an animal here, but in fact, the
25:30animal isn't there, you see. There you
25:32go. And then there’s what we call
25:36entheogens, which are more of an
25:38expression, often in images, because
25:41language—sometimes words are very
25:43reductive for talking about the
25:45unconscious, you know? So we say that
25:49instead, but there is still debate on
25:51that level, obviously, because legally
25:53they say it’s a hallucinogen, so it
25:55must be classified in the category of
25:57drugs. Jacques Mabit, for example, at
25:59Takiwasi, says no, it’s an entheogen.
26:01Personally, how do I experience it?
26:04It’s actually an exploration of
26:06oneself, of one’s unconscious. So the
26:10plant speaks of no one else but me.
26:13That is the reason why my own
26:14experience will not be someone else’s
26:17experience. Now, it may happen at some
26:21point that by leaving the ego, we enter
26:24into much more collective spheres.
26:29There you go, we can’t prove that, et
26:31cetera. So I would start from the
26:33principle, you see, at least from my
26:35own professional experience, that I am
26:37visiting my own universe. So you, Rémy
26:40, and all the people listening to us,
26:42you have your own universe. The proof,
26:44for example, is that no one can know
26:46exactly what you are thinking and what
26:47you are feeling. You can express it in
26:50words, right, or through an emotion,
26:52but it is your own universe. And that
26:55is what makes connecting with human
26:56beings difficult, because we each live
26:58in our own universe. So with the plant,
27:02I visited my universe, which contains
27:05different levels, right, but where it
27:08can obviously meet sometimes in what we
27:11call, let’s say, to use my own
27:13language, collective archetypes. Let me
27:17give you an example. At one point with
27:20the Taita Juan, in my experience in
27:22Colombia actually, we went to perform a
27:24ritual in Ecuador. Uh, there you go. Uh
27:28, and the experience—there were about
27:31thirty of us. The experience was of an
27:34absolutely insane intensity. I needed
27:37to pee. I couldn’t even go to pee. I
27:39did it in my—I did it in my pants,
27:41basically. It was too strong. And at
27:44one point, I went through the memories
27:46of the Holocaust. So I can’t say,
27:51well, yes, that is part of the human
27:53collective memories, you see. The
27:56Holocaust doesn’t belong to me, but I
27:58, as a human being, I am also part of,
28:00I’ll say, the human collective. So at
28:02one point, when I touched those
28:04memories, it was—it was horrible. And
28:06at one point, I said, "My God, as a
28:09human, forgive us for all of this,
28:12really." And at one point, a voice said
28:14to me, "But you know, I have already
28:16granted forgiveness to humanity." But
28:18is humanity capable of granting
28:20forgiveness to itself? Do you see what
28:22I mean? So, there are other things, for
28:25example, that I visited at one point,
28:27which perhaps are also part of the
28:28collective unconscious. At one point,
28:32in my past life, I had many memories of
28:34war and so on, many things like that.
28:37So, perhaps that also speaks to my
28:39past-life memories. At one point, I
28:43went very deeply into, I mean, the
28:45human masculine, you see, really. And
28:50that's where I realized, for example,
28:52that there can be a lot of brotherhood
28:54between men, right? Women too can have,
28:57I mean, a sisterhood very unique to
28:59women, but also to the masculine, right
29:00? And at one point, I descended into
29:05that sphere, and I felt that this
29:07energy of brotherhood had been used,
29:09notably in wars and so on, perhaps by
29:12people who used, I mean, this energy in
29:14a way that was not appropriate. You see
29:17, this human brotherhood, to wage wars
29:19that weren't legitimate, right? And so,
29:23at one point, it's crazy, I said, "Wait
29:25, God, I can't go and heal that, I
29:28don't know how." And at one point, it's
29:31interesting because I felt as if a
29:33light were descending, a light that was
29:36not in the usual spectrum to go and
29:38heal that. Now, it's not a healing of
29:41the collective unconscious, you know,
29:43suggesting that I'm going to heal the
29:46collective, but perhaps to heal a
29:48memory in me that needed to be healed,
29:50you see. So, while I feel connected to
29:53the collective, what I'm going to heal
29:55—I mean, I'm not God the Father,
29:57right? I'm not...I mean, the only thing
30:01I can control is to go and heal those
30:03memories within me. So, what is the
30:06impact on the collective? I have no
30:08idea. That is, that is not within my
30:10jurisdiction. So, it was through many
30:13experiences like that, you see, where
30:16perhaps the individual and the
30:18collective were blending. So, it's hard
30:22to answer your questions, because these
30:26are realms where I'd say, within our
30:30limited human ego, there are many
30:33things that go beyond us. Besides, the
30:37taita in Colombia, because I had told
30:39him this story about the Holocaust, and
30:41he said to me: "But sometimes it's a
30:44mystery, we sometimes live through a
30:46mystery, we can't explain it." I can
30:49verbalize some things, but there are
30:52things I would be incapable of putting
30:55into words, and sometimes I’ve
30:57observed them and thought, wait, this
31:00is completely insane. It wasn't my ego
31:03doing that. Specifically, there were
31:06energy experiments in altered states of
31:08consciousness that I lived through at
31:09one point where my whole body was
31:13shaking like a washing machine. And I
31:17thought: "Wait, in a normal state of
31:19consciousness, I would be completely
31:20incapable of doing that." And it was as
31:24if my entire body was rebalancing and
31:26realigning itself. I didn't understand
31:29anything, but it was happening, and I
31:31think I experienced it; perhaps this
31:33experience was given to me. It was
31:36given to me several times, and that is
31:38perhaps, I would say, a message of hope
31:40for the human of tomorrow. I think
31:44these are moments where the human of
31:45tomorrow will be able to heal
31:47themselves without medication, solely
31:48through the body's intelligence, which
31:50is extremely clever. I mean, and I tell
31:54you, Remy, about the experiences I've
31:57had; what we call artificial
31:59intelligence is nothing compared to
32:01what I've seen in terms of bodily
32:03technology. It's absolutely incredible.
32:08But anyway, there are things I've
32:10experienced that completely surpass me,
32:13where I saw just how much the body is
32:15an energy center that cannot yet
32:17function at 100%. Let's say it's
32:20perhaps at 5 or 10%. But in due time,
32:23when man is ready—which will no doubt
32:25take several generations—all of this
32:28will open up, and the human of tomorrow
32:30will be born. So for the moment, we are
32:32in the throes, I'd say, of the birth of
32:35humanity.
32:35>> Before we continue, I would like to
32:36tell you about a project that is very
32:38close to my heart. Since the beginning
32:39of Point Z0, many of you have asked me
32:41how to find a trusted practitioner.
32:42That is why I created the Point0
32:44collective. It's an open directory for
32:46holistic practitioners that is free for
32:48everyone, practitioners and users alike
32:49. Each practitioner is sponsored by an
32:51existing member of the collective. The
32:52goal is to build a true circle of trust
32:54, and there is also a "first session
32:56satisfied or refunded" policy when
32:58payment is made via the platform.
33:00It’s my way of ensuring that the
33:01platform brings together the right
33:03types of practitioners who are
33:04convinced of their practice. So if you
33:06are ever looking for guidance, a
33:08retreat, a workshop, or if you simply
33:09don't know where to start, I invite you
33:11to discover the collective. It’s
33:13still the beginning, but I am super
33:15excited to co-build this with you and
33:17see what this project will become. You
33:19will find the link in the video
33:20description as always. Let's resume.
33:23>> You see, Blavatsky, Elena Blavatsky,
33:26and Alice Bailey said that, in fact, as
33:30humans, you see, we are barely out of
33:33the animal state. We are at the
33:36pre-human stage. So the human state is
33:40in the process of being built because,
33:42well, the body is built, the physical
33:45body is built, the emotional body is
33:47built, but the mental body is not yet
33:49fully constructed. That's why we have a
33:52division between the conscious and the
33:53unconscious. And that is why there is
33:55so much mental discomfort at the moment
33:57. Meaning that the entire unconscious
33:59is little by little rising to the
34:00conscious level, right? It is said in
34:02the Bible, everything that is hidden,
34:04well, even the stones will cry out, and
34:06so on. Everything that is hidden will
34:08come out, and so on. Well, there you go
34:09. And in fact, I interpret it as us
34:12being in the final stage of the
34:14formation of the human mind, right?
34:17There you go. It’s not always easy,
34:19but that is where we are. Anyway, there
34:22you go. Maybe you spoke of master
34:25plants. What is it that makes a plant a
34:28"master plant" in your opinion?
34:30>> In the sense of why do these altered
34:32states of consciousness, like, what do
34:34these altered states of consciousness
34:36have to teach us?
34:37>> And in what way can
34:39>> we find a therapeutic aspect in them?
34:42>> Exactly. So there are two questions in
34:45your question. There is a lot being
34:48written at the moment about what
34:50consciousness is. Look, at one point,
34:54I'll give you an example. There you go,
34:56all the listeners are in front of their
34:59computer, they are listening, well,
35:01here and now, we are face-to-face. But
35:04at the moment we are speaking, there is
35:06a whole environment present, right? Uh,
35:10the Earth is spinning at, I think,
35:121,600 km/h. At the same time, around
35:15the sun, it’s at 100,000 km/h. The
35:18whole galaxy is moving at 100,000 km/h.
35:21There you go. So, uh, our consciousness
35:24is actually, uh, here and now. There it
35:29is. And so, through this plant—at
35:33least that’s how I experienced it—
35:36it allows you to widen your vision to
35:39360 degrees, but not visual vision, you
35:42see. It’s an inner vision, perhaps,
35:48that allows us to see reality in a much
35:52broader way, you know. And so, to
35:57answer your second question, what can
36:01it truly bring? It means being able to
36:05see a problem from a different angle
36:08with a much broader perspective. I’ll
36:11give you an example. Often, very often,
36:14at least in the first years of my
36:16experience with ayahuasca, when the
36:18effect on consciousness began to
36:20subside, it was as if there were a Q&A
36:22session; I had questions about daily
36:24life, I would ask the question, and the
36:27answer that came would bring me a
36:29different angle. I’ll give a very
36:31concrete example. You know, sometimes
36:34on the street, there are people begging
36:36who are in a state of poverty, and we
36:38give them money. Well, often out of
36:41guilt, because if I don’t give, I
36:43feel uncomfortable, right? That’s one
36:45thing. And at one point, in an altered
36:48state of consciousness, I asked, "How
36:49can I really help this person?" Because
36:52I sometimes felt guilty. I’m human,
36:54you see. I mean, I can eat, I can dress
36:57myself, and these people have nothing.
37:02And the answer I was given, you see,
37:04was that one of the ways to help them
37:07is to be able to look at them as men
37:09and women standing tall. Standing tall,
37:17you see. Meaning, through your gaze, to
37:19restore their dignity, you see. So
37:22there are many things like that that
37:24happened, which actually allow you, you
37:27see, to step out of the egotistical
37:29field of the answer. If I give out of
37:33guilt, that's really an ego-driven
37:36response, you see, which helps one
37:39realize there's another way to give.
37:43I'm not saying we shouldn't give
37:44material things, that's not what I mean
37:46, but it's knowing that there's also
37:48the dimension of how I look at the
37:49other person, you see. So, those are
37:52the kinds of elements from my daily
37:55life that appeared and allowed me,
37:58quite concretely at times, to change my
38:01outlook on life and on others, you see.
38:04So, there you go, I'm not sure if I
38:06answered your question. We sometimes
38:10talk—well, I hear quite often about
38:12the death of the ego, or yeah, the ego
38:15death. This concept is also found in
38:19the Zen tradition. You mentioned that
38:21you had started with the Zen tradition,
38:23meditation, and so on. We can also
38:25glimpse this aspect of, well, this
38:26changing relationship with the ego. How
38:29do you understand it, and in what way
38:31can this ego death have a powerful
38:33therapeutic aspect?
38:35>> OK. Well, for a long time, especially
38:38during my intensive therapeutic process
38:41, I thought the ego had to be killed.
38:45But, and this is interesting, I came
38:48across a writing by a Jesuit father
38:50named Griffiths—I've forgotten his
38:52first name—at the Shantivanam ashram
38:55in India, because I traveled all around
38:57India visiting different ashrams. And
39:01he said something very interesting,
39:02because he was asked the question
39:04regarding the "I," the ego, since he
39:06was at the crossroads between, I mean,
39:08Hinduism and Catholicism. And he said,
39:11"But if you kill the ego, you die."
39:15Because what is the ego? It's the "I."
39:18I—my name is Xavier, I have brothers
39:20and sisters, I have a family. It is, in
39:23fact, what allows me to interact with
39:25the outside world. I find it hard to
39:27imagine you, at some point, going to
39:28introduce yourself and, when asked "But
39:30who are you?"...having no answer other
39:32than "I am nothing." No, you have a
39:35name, an identity, a history you will
39:38refer to. And that is the ego. And in
39:41fact, when we are born with a body, we
39:43obviously enter into separation because
39:46, you see, bodies are separate, and the
39:48ego is born at that moment with the
39:51identification with the body. It is
39:53built, you know. But the ego is an
39:55instrument. So, it's not a question of
39:59killing the ego; it's a question of
40:02moving it from egoism, precisely, to
40:04altruism. And that is, and that is
40:09where the evolution lies, you see,
40:11which we talk about in Kabbalah in
40:13particular, where in fact it's moving
40:16from "I" to "we," meaning that in my
40:18daily actions, it's not acting solely
40:21in an egoistic way—me, myself, only
40:23me—but it's realizing that my words,
40:26my actions, and my thoughts have an
40:28impact on others. That is altruism, you
40:32see. So that, that is the current work
40:36for me, it is, uh, uh, fluidizing the
40:39ego to put it at the service of
40:41something greater. That is the real
40:44work. Well, not destroying the ego.
40:47Indeed, in an altered state of
40:49consciousness, when I ascended into the
40:50spheres, at a certain point, it doesn't
40:52matter if my name is Olivier, Olivier
40:54Caron, or if I have brothers and
40:56sisters. But honestly, not at all, I am
40:59in consciousness, I am no longer in the
41:02ego. At that moment, I am in other
41:05spheres, but in ceremonies that were
41:07extremely powerful, notably, there, in
41:10the Amazon, also, there, an experience
41:12I had in Thailand. It's when I come
41:17back from those worlds, you see, it's a
41:19bit like returning to the mundane
41:21sphere saying: "OK, now, what is my
41:24name?" OK, where am I for the moment?
41:28How many brothers and sisters do I have
41:29? It's a bit as if, you see, my, my
41:32consciousness was returning to, to the,
41:34to the body and to the mental sphere,
41:36which is difficult obviously, because
41:38when you are in those spaces, it's,
41:40it's, it's good for those who have
41:42already lived through this kind of
41:44experience; these are experiences of
41:46expansion, you see. But at a certain
41:48point, it's returning to incarnation,
41:51to the body. And that is also an
41:54important message, you see, uh, that I
41:56have to convey because you could also
41:59ask me "But Olivier, what did that
42:01bring you? These intense experiences
42:05with Ayahuasca? Well, you'll be
42:09surprised because I had to travel
42:11millions of kilometers outside the body
42:13, you see, to go and visit, I mean,
42:15absolutely, absolutely incredible
42:17spheres. What I call the fantastical at
42:19a certain point, these are worlds,
42:21there you go. Well, it's the world of
42:23the paradise that I was given the grace
42:25to visit, perhaps to bear witness, not
42:27to say I am an exceptional person, to
42:28say I experienced this. So no, it's
42:31there for everyone, you know. That's it
42:33. But, uh, later I realized that
42:36everything is in the incarnation, in
42:40this body. That's why sometimes, when
42:45taking psychotropics, if the intention
42:46—I'm talking about the word intention
42:48, which is very important—is to flee
42:51reality, it’s completely missing the
42:53point of the earthly school. Because if
42:56my soul signed up to live in this body,
42:59well, it’s to live experiences in
43:03this body. Now, I’m not saying it
43:05can’t lead—sometimes in
43:07psychedelic-assisted therapies and so
43:08on, with the intention of healing, it
43:10can help when everything else has
43:11failed. I can understand that someone
43:14might go into that, or perhaps to get
43:15to know themselves better. There you go
43:17, that can also be the intention, but
43:20it’s about knowing what I bring back
43:22as material from that world. How can I
43:25live my daily life in a more brotherly
43:29way? Or, if I have a partner, how to be
43:34a better partner for my partner,
43:36whether she or he, it doesn't matter.
43:39You see, it’s all about living in
43:43this body. That’s—that’s all.
43:46It’s—it’s—and actually, you
43:48were talking about Zen, but I’ve
43:50actually restarted Zen in a slightly
43:51more intensive way. You see, I had left
43:55Zen, but only to come back to it, to
43:58understand it differently, to just
44:00understand that it’s right here and
44:03now, in this body, that it happens. So,
44:07I know it’s not easy. We are living
44:09through an absolutely phenomenal
44:10transition right now. Well, there are a
44:12lot of YouTube videos and so on. We are
44:13also living through childbirth, in a
44:15way. We don’t know how it will go,
44:17but well, it’s not simple. But it’s
44:20a school, it’s a learning process,
44:22isn't it? How has your understanding of
44:29the term evolved through your
44:31experiences?
44:32>> There? Uh, what did you say?
44:34>> Your understanding of the word God and
44:36the concept of what God is.
44:38>> Well, that has evolved a lot because
44:42you see, as I said, in my youth, I was
44:45...I was raised. Well, my parents did
44:48what they could, you know. But well,
44:49there it was, in a fairly
44:51guilt-inducing traditional Catholicism,
44:53you know:" God will punish you. "If
44:54you’re not a good boy, God will
44:56punish you. And where I imagined, you
44:59know, as a child, an old bearded man,
45:00you see, in a corner of the universe
45:02and so on. There you go. Uh, I first
45:05had to reconcile myself with the word
45:07God, you know, because, well, we’ve
45:09waged wars in the name of God, right?
45:11People kill in the name of God, you
45:12know. Everything associated with that,
45:15including Christianity—at one point I
45:17confused Catholicism with Christianity,
45:19and at one point, I just threw it all
45:21in the trash, you know. And it was
45:24really little by little that I
45:26reconnected, notably with a book called
45:28the Book of Rancien, teachings of Jesus
45:30, where it allowed me to say, well
45:32actually, Jesus is also a human being.
45:36He is a human who embodied, well, the
45:40heart of God. It's, but it's, he is
45:43above all also a human. And I had
45:47disconnected because, for me, Jesus was
45:49someone unattainable. And then
45:53afterwards, there were other books,
45:54notably A Course in Miracles, and
45:56readings little by little that
45:57rehabilitated for me, you see, this
45:59concept, but it doesn't matter what we
46:01call it, for some people who will say"
46:02I can't stand the concept. "Well,
46:05whether we call it the universe, or
46:06call it the primal source, it doesn't
46:07matter. So, when I entered into
46:11energetic spaces, I felt that, in fact,
46:14God is everywhere. It is a space of
46:17consciousness, in fact. It is a space
46:21of consciousness continually in
46:23expansion. So, some say that even God
46:27would be beyond consciousness, you see,
46:30but that he needs to experience himself
46:33through consciousness and, well,
46:35notably in the world of form, in fact.
46:40So my vision of God has completely
46:42evolved. And now, in the work I am
46:46doing, because I am a very cerebral
46:48person, you see, with 10 years of
46:50university and so on, where everything
46:52has to be mentalized, I realize, you
46:54see, that for me, my way of finding God
46:57is in the heart. It's the heart because
47:02, you see, I can share it. Well, that's
47:0530 years of experience, you see, to get
47:08to that point, but to say that the
47:09heart is our best doctor, it’s the
47:11one that heals. And I had some
47:15absolutely incredible experiences in
47:17altered states with Ayahuasca where, at
47:20one point, well, it was, I mean, the
47:22chief of the Shipibo tribe who, well,
47:24where I had a ceremony with him, it was
47:26absolutely incredible, and where I...I
47:29saw all these buggy memories passing
47:31through my heart, you know, linked to
47:33the energies of the Divine Mother or
47:35whatever, the Virgin Mary, I...I don't
47:38know, and I...I was observing this, and
47:42everything was passing through the
47:43heart, and all the buggy information
47:45was being repaired and realigned. I
47:48said to myself," Wait, what...what is
47:49happening? "It was at a quantum speed,
47:51you know; I didn't understand anything,
47:53but it made me realize, you see, even
47:55though in my usual state of
47:57consciousness, I would be incapable of
47:58doing that again. But it was an
48:01experience that told me," Actually, at
48:04the heart level, you can start to heal
48:06things, you see? "And so? First, you
48:09have to repair the healer. How do you
48:12first heal yourself from guilt, all
48:14that shame, and so on? Because I mean,
48:17the doctor cannot heal if he doesn't
48:19know, he cannot start healing if he
48:20hasn't healed himself, you see. So,
48:22there is forgiveness. Now, *A Course in
48:25Miracles*talks about it very well, you
48:26see, this ritual of forgiveness for the
48:28healing of the heart. So, last year, I
48:30was very much into that. And then
48:33gratitude, which is the nourishment of
48:35the heart, you see. So at the same time
48:37, there is forgiveness to heal the
48:39heart, not religious forgiveness, you
48:40know. Forgiveness is just, notably
48:45through Ho'oponopono and other
48:47different techniques to repair the
48:49buggy, sick information and through
48:54gratitude, through the little things in
48:56life, you know. Like, I'm having a
48:59coffee with a friend, or just enjoying
49:01this present moment and feeling," Wow,
49:03thank you. "for this moment and there,
49:09little by little, the heart chakra woke
49:12up, actually, and the healer of the
49:14heart. But I was incapable of using the
49:17heart because there was so much guilt
49:19inside. I...I had to go and visit that
49:22a lot. Well, I found it in past lives,
49:24you know. These were extremely old
49:27past-life mechanisms where, uh, all the
49:29lives after, uh, I...I paid for them,
49:31but it wasn't God who wanted to punish
49:34me; it was me. My soul, out of guilt,
49:38was choosing lives to punish me. It's
49:42very different, you know. It's not a
49:44God who judges. It's it's not it's we
49:47must stop all these guilt-inducing
49:48notions, it's just so misunderstood. It
49:52it took me years to get out of that. Uh
49:55there's no point feeling guilty, you
49:57see, responsible, yes, but not guilty.
50:00Guilt doesn't bring anything, you know.
50:02So, you have to you have to sometimes
50:04go and visit the layers of the onion,
50:05you know. So, even with my 5-year
50:07extremely intensive therapy, there
50:09there were still roots left, you see.
50:12So, it's keep going, keep going. And
50:14don't get discouraged because
50:15afterwards, obviously, these roots lose
50:17their strength, you know. There you go.
50:19And as we know, egos are built, you
50:21know, for those who have done the
50:23Enneagram, from suffering actually, you
50:26see. So, for example, uh if at some
50:28point the soul at some point at the
50:30moment of incarnation, well there is a
50:32root of guilt, well obviously the ego
50:34will be built on roots of guilt. But
50:37for others, it will be other things,
50:38you see. But there you go, the
50:41Enneagram is interesting because they
50:43say," Well, we're going to touch the
50:44birth mechanism of the ego to go and
50:46heal it, you see. "Well, that's yet
50:48another mechanism.
50:51>> What would be, if you had to find one,
50:53the journey that has perhaps most
50:55impacted your way of understanding the
50:56reality we live in? Quick parenthesis
50:59before we continue. I have been
51:00subscribed to GA for 2 years now.
51:02YouTube is great, it's my go-to
51:03platform, but we often end up having to
51:05watch hours and hours of interviews to
51:07find the answer we're looking for. GA,
51:09unlike YouTube, is organized into
51:10series and episodes that really
51:11function as a coherent whole, which
51:13allows you to get straight to the point
51:14and save a huge amount of time. I'm
51:16actually showing you on screen the
51:18series that had the biggest impact on
51:19my own journey and which, by the way,
51:20particularly inspired this podcast. I'm
51:22super happy, I sent them a little email
51:23and they agreed to become a partner of
51:25the channel. So if you're curious, you
51:27have a week to discover GA for free via
51:29the link in the description. You can
51:30always watch a season on the subject
51:32that speaks to you the most and then
51:33cancel. To be honest, that's what I did
51:35. I ended up renewing the subscription.
51:37But anyway, in any case, I recommend
51:38you go check it out, go take a quick
51:39look. It's really extremely interesting
51:41. Alright, let's pick it back up.
51:42>> For me, personally, you mean my own
51:44reality. My own reality, you mean? Hm.
51:48>> Hm.
51:49>> So, once again, that's what I said,
51:52Rémi, at some point, uh, returning to
51:54incarnation and stopping the flight
51:57from incarnation. That was undoubtedly
52:01the biggest lesson. So, I still
52:04sometimes, I mean, I have a, I mean, a
52:07nostalgia for the beyond, for
52:10everything I visited, you know. But I
52:14had an experience, uh, well, in
52:16extremely high altered states on the
52:18planes of the mind, shall we say, the
52:21higher mind. Which we all have, you
52:23know. Well, I visited it. At one point,
52:26I told myself, but everything is here.
52:28I don't need to come back. I'm rolling
52:31in those spheres. But at a certain
52:34point, something brought me back, you
52:37know. Well, in the path of service, I
52:39also took the Bodhisattva vows, you
52:41know. So, at one point when I was very
52:45high, it said," But Xavier, return to
52:47incarnation because this is where it
52:50happens, you see. "And I think that was
52:53my biggest lesson. I needed to live
52:56those experiences. So, I no longer need
52:58now to live these experiences, I'd say,
53:00as intensely. But, uh, it was actually
53:03in my astrological chart, you know, the
53:05substances, because an astrologer at
53:07one point had done my chart, I was 22,
53:09and she said to me," But do you take
53:11substances? "There you go. I said, well
53:13no, I don't even smoke. I've never
53:16smoked cannabis, no tobacco, but it was
53:19in, in, in my incarnation, undoubtedly
53:21in my astrological chart, where perhaps
53:24my soul signed up for a moment to live
53:27these experiences to learn something.
53:31But there are other paths of learning.
53:33I'm not saying that ayahuasca, going
53:35through ayahuasca, but I needed that to
53:39learn that, you see. So there you go.
53:42And so the next steps are just enjoying
53:44the little things in life, you know.
53:48Enjoying the present moment as well,
53:50there in self-love, in love for others.
53:53But it's a path too, it's the path of
53:55rest, it's learning to love.
53:58>> It's not just an individual path, but
53:59it's also a collective path.
54:03>> What is a misunderstanding you see most
54:05often that people might have regarding
54:07ayahuasca and medicinal plants in
54:09general? Well, well indeed, and that is
54:14a major problem because, well, there
54:16have been some rare accidents that
54:18happened and immediately, they were
54:21picked up by the traditional media
54:23saying:" Oh, ayahuasca! "Obviously, it
54:27creates a buzz, uh, at that moment, in
54:30terms of media, great, you get views,
54:33etc. Uh, so I think ayahuasca is very
54:39misunderstood, I would say, in, in the
54:44traditional media. You know, the, the,
54:48ayahuasca is part of the most profound
54:51traditions of the Amazon. Uh, it
54:54touches on the true mysticism of the
54:57Amazon. You see, you have the Amazon
54:59and then you have the energetics of the
55:00Amazon. I am lucky enough to enter into
55:03it. All these indigenous peoples, uh,
55:07by force of ritual, of prayer, etc.,
55:10they have built this energetic space,
55:14right. So at some point, it's about
55:16being able to respect it. And when I
55:19see what happened in Paris, where a
55:22friend was criminally convicted by a
55:24court because he was using ayahuasca in
55:27the Santo Daime path without any profit
55:30or anything, you see, solely for
55:32exercising his religious freedom,
55:35criminally convicted. And then a few
55:39kilometers away, in one of the biggest
55:41Parisian museums, the Musée du Quai
55:43Branly-Jacques Chirac, there you go, an
55:45exhibition on ayahuasca with tens of
55:47thousands of people who visited the
55:49exhibition, open to the general public.
55:54Well, I cannot stand that, you see,
55:55from the moment that some states—
55:57I’m not saying there shouldn't be
55:58regulation, there must be regulation,
56:00you have to, because otherwise people
56:02will do just anything. To criminalize
56:06the most sacred plant, I mean, of the
56:09Amazonian traditions. Uh, for me,
56:12it’s horrifying. That is the reason
56:15why I have also invested myself a lot
56:16legally on that level because it
56:18touches upon the culture of indigenous
56:19peoples. But unfortunately, and I must
56:24acknowledge this, there is a lot of
56:26abuse, uh, and people using it for
56:28commercial, mercantile purposes, by
56:30mixing it with other substances, etc.,
56:32in a way that has nothing to do with,
56:34uh, this medicine. Because it is a
56:39medicine considered as one of the most
56:41sacred traditions of the Amazon, you
56:43see. So we must, we must, we must keep
56:47that in mind, you see. So for people
56:51who want to experience ayahuasca, well,
56:53uh, be careful too, uh, what is the
56:56substance? Where does it come from? Who
56:58is going to facilitate it? What is the
56:59ritual? Or obviously, the ideal is to
57:02go and experience it where it grows, in
57:04the Amazon. That is the reason why I
57:08created a blog with various addresses
57:10in Latin America for people who really
57:13wish to experience Ayahuasca, so that
57:16they do it in a protected and
57:18ritualized setting. You see, it
57:21shouldn't just be done any old way in a
57:23bedroom, you know. You don't just take
57:24Ayahuasca like you'd take mushrooms.
57:27Anyway, I'm not going to judge, but for
57:30me, that's not the way to use it, I
57:33mean, in a responsible and ethical way
57:36toward this plant, because I have
57:39respect for this teacher plant. But, in
57:43any case, I will be infinitely grateful
57:46to this plant for what it brought me. I
57:49will never forget it. It's truly a part
57:52of me, one of the most extraordinary
57:54experiences I have lived, but at some
57:57point, it's about moving to integration
57:59and returning to everyday life and
58:02saying:" Okay, now with all this, with
58:05all these experiences, what do I do
58:07with it in my daily life? "And that's
58:11when it starts to make sense, you see.
58:13It starts to make sense. You mentioned
58:18LSD at the beginning of the interview,
58:19which is indeed sometimes lumped into
58:21the same...I agree with you, and I came
58:23from that tradition of believing that
58:25all...I put all drugs in the same
58:27basket. And for a little anecdote, I
58:30did my Erasmus in Hong Kong and lived
58:32for 6 months with a Belarusian guy who
58:35lived in Berlin. Berlin, which has a
58:38fairly advanced drug culture, and he
58:40explained a bit of that idea that,
58:41indeed, not all drugs were the same,
58:43that there were several types of drugs
58:45with different effects, very different
58:47levels of addictiveness, and very
58:49different behaviors. So, I became a bit
58:52more aware of all types of drugs. I
58:55didn't necessarily take any at the time
58:57, but at least it created an initial
58:59map for me. In that map, people seem to
59:02make a fairly significant distinction
59:05between LSD and Ayahuasca. LSD being
59:08synthetic, and the other natural, with
59:09purists saying," You absolutely must
59:11take natural plants because it's better
59:13, because of this and that. "What is
59:15your own belief on this? Is there
59:17really a distinction? Is it ultimately
59:19the altered states of consciousness
59:21that create the value, and therefore
59:23the way of getting there matters little
59:24or less? or is there actually something
59:28that makes or renders the fact, I mean,
59:31why is it important that it came from
59:33the earth and that it is natural?
59:37>> Well, I don't have any direct
59:38experience with LSD so I can't talk
59:40about it, but MDMA, yes. Uh I would say
59:46that there is still a difference, I
59:48mean, between what is chemical and what
59:50is natural. So, there can be, uh,
59:53altered states of consciousness and
59:55spectacular healings, right, also, for
59:57example, with MDMA, uh, which is now
1:00:00also used in assisted therapy in
1:00:02certain American states, you see, to,
1:00:04uh, open up the relationship with the
1:00:06therapist, right, and which can yield
1:00:09certain results. But each substance is
1:00:12different and, I mean, is part of,
1:00:14connects to different egregors. So, I
1:00:18would say that with ayahuasca, it
1:00:20connects to the egregor, obviously, of
1:00:22the traditional populations, of the
1:00:24first peoples of the Amazon as well,
1:00:27with an egregor that is specific, I
1:00:29mean, to the traditional space of the
1:00:31Amazon. So with LSD, you won't
1:00:33necessarily connect with the energetic
1:00:35space of the Amazon, you see, that
1:00:36doesn't make sense. That's how I see it
1:00:38, you see, that each substance
1:00:40>> and is that specific to the substance
1:00:42or is it specific to the context that
1:00:44we add to it? You see, if we take for
1:00:47example a, uh, you see, like a clinical
1:00:48context, where we put someone in
1:00:50isolation, we give them a substance
1:00:52without telling them what it is and
1:00:53they have absolutely zero context about
1:00:55what they are taking, will there be a
1:00:57distinction? Or in fact, is it the fact
1:00:59that they are actually embedding
1:01:00themselves in the tradition that will
1:01:02make them capture all of this egregor
1:01:03and all of this tradition? It's not...
1:01:07each experience is very different. Uh,
1:01:10what I can say is that there are many
1:01:12things that will make the difference in
1:01:14the direction. It's the intention. What
1:01:19is the intention when taking LSD? The
1:01:22intention when taking Ayahuasca, or
1:01:24MDMA. There you go. Uh, so I think that
1:01:27you first have to be very clear with
1:01:29the intention and indeed your intention
1:01:31will guide the experience, in fact.
1:01:34That's why you have to be very clear
1:01:36with it because that's what will guide
1:01:38it, in fact, you see. So it's difficult
1:01:42for me to answer your question because
1:01:44it is very personal. So it is true that
1:01:48these substances act. Well, I am not a
1:01:51pharmacologist, I am not a chemist, but
1:01:52obviously each substance has a
1:01:53different chemistry on the brain, you
1:01:55see. So everyone is different. So some
1:01:58people will say," Well, for me, LSD, uh
1:02:00, it worked in an extraordinary way for
1:02:02me, but ayahuasca didn't. "It's
1:02:04actually very personal. I, I think that
1:02:07there are certain personalities that
1:02:11need to experiment with substances,
1:02:14I’d say, that alter consciousness, or
1:02:18at least expand it. There you go, it's
1:02:21not a path for everyone. And then, well
1:02:24, I know, for example, people who take
1:02:26ayahuasca. There are, there are many
1:02:29people, well many, there are some
1:02:31people I know who, at one point, were
1:02:33addicted to hard drugs like crack and
1:02:36heroin and who got out of addiction
1:02:38thanks to ayahuasca, because ayahuasca
1:02:40is not addictive. That’s the reason
1:02:45why the Takiwasi center that was
1:02:47created by Jacques Mabit in Tarapoto,
1:02:50Peru, uh, helps with detoxification, if
1:02:53, if we were to lift the hood a little
1:02:56and understand why does it help? Do you
1:02:59, do you have an understanding today of
1:03:02>> what is it in this plant that helps to
1:03:04deconstruct an addiction? And it's true
1:03:07that I had looked a bit at the studies
1:03:09and it's for almost every type of
1:03:10addiction, whether it’s an addiction
1:03:12to alcohol, cigarettes, or somewhat
1:03:13harder drugs, regardless of the
1:03:15spectrum, it seems to help. So listen,
1:03:19because there is someone who is dear to
1:03:21me, who is close, who took addictive
1:03:23substances like crack, et cetera,
1:03:25heroin, well, you know, hard drugs, who
1:03:28became schizophrenic. And at one point,
1:03:32I had thought for him saying," But you
1:03:35know, maybe ayahuasca could be a path
1:03:38to get out of all that, but if the
1:03:41addicted person doesn't already have
1:03:44the intention to get out of it, it
1:03:47won't work. "So these plants, how can
1:03:50they help? At one point, I’d say
1:03:53really, in the traditions in the Amazon
1:03:55, when it’s used in the right way,
1:03:57it’s first a complete purge of the
1:04:00body through diet plants and then
1:04:02through, uh, ayahuasca, right, a
1:04:04combination of the plants, but at that
1:04:06moment, it’s vomiting and, et cetera.
1:04:09It’s really a complete scouring of
1:04:11the body. But at some point, you really
1:04:14need, uh, the person’s intention by
1:04:16saying," Now, I want to get out of this
1:04:19. "And it's knowing that there are
1:04:22these methods that, at some point, can
1:04:24little by little clean the body of
1:04:26everything that has clogged it, not
1:04:28only on the physical level but also on
1:04:30the energetic level. Because obviously,
1:04:34people who have taken substances, you
1:04:36know, just any old way, where it blows
1:04:38their brains apart, at some point
1:04:40entities get in. Yes, the doors open,
1:04:43and then you don't know what's coming
1:04:45in or going out. But at a certain point
1:04:48, when the substance wears off, the
1:04:50entities stay, you know, in the energy
1:04:51sphere. That is the reason why, notably
1:04:55Taaruan in the Sibundoy Valley, whom I
1:04:58mentioned in Colombia, at one point, he
1:05:00would spit a kind of, you know, Agua
1:05:02Florida—for those who know it—onto
1:05:04the top of people's heads, and he would
1:05:07see entities leaving through the crown
1:05:09of their heads or clean them out, you
1:05:11know. It’s quite impressive, really.
1:05:15He told me things that were, wow, you
1:05:17really have to hold on tight, you know.
1:05:20So, it’s about knowing that yes,
1:05:25these planes can help, but you need an
1:05:28intention first, you see.
1:05:30>> We talked about that a little bit.
1:05:32>> It’s not the plant that does it, you
1:05:33see, it’s doing the work with the
1:05:35substance. Otherwise, if you just tell
1:05:38the substance" heal me, "that’s not
1:05:40how it works. At some point, I am
1:05:43accompanying myself with the substance.
1:05:46It’s very different. We can help
1:05:48bring about realizations, but if
1:05:50you’re not ready afterward to take
1:05:52them and apply them in your daily life,
1:05:53the result will be the same.
1:05:56>> There you go. And that is what I call
1:05:58—what I call integration, and it is a
1:06:00process. It doesn’t happen overnight,
1:06:03saying" Yes, there have been
1:06:04spectacular healings that have happened
1:06:06, "but I think it’s because the
1:06:08person was ready, they had already done
1:06:10prior work,
1:06:12>> you see.
1:06:13>> So, there. But, considered as
1:06:17>> yes, we mentioned a little bit the
1:06:19reasons why people might want to take
1:06:21ayahuasca. So we talked about addiction
1:06:23, we talked about depression, perhaps
1:06:25finding meaning and motivation in life.
1:06:28Connecting to meaning, that ties in a
1:06:30little bit with depression. It’s
1:06:31perhaps the other side of the coin.
1:06:34What is, according to you, the opposite
1:06:36question? That is to say, what are the
1:06:39wrong reasons for which one might want
1:06:40to take it, for which one should be
1:06:42careful? Well, I would say, but it’s
1:06:45like any substance, it’s escapism.
1:06:49You know, uh, Réy, sometimes daily
1:06:51life, I can understand, can be
1:06:53extremely hard for, uh, some people,
1:06:55especially sensitive people or those
1:06:57with extremely complicated, uh, very
1:06:59destructive, very difficult backgrounds
1:07:01, where at some point these people say:
1:07:03" But incarnation on earth, I don't
1:07:05want it, it's too hard. "Uh, and in
1:07:10fact, that's what, at some point, can
1:07:12be the trigger, I mean. Now, I'm not
1:07:15necessarily saying with ayahuasca,
1:07:17right, that's not it, but also perhaps
1:07:19with highly addictive substances, it's
1:07:20that at some point, uh, I'm going to
1:07:22take these substances because life on
1:07:24earth has become unbearable for me. So,
1:07:26I'm fleeing my incarnation, I'm fleeing
1:07:29my body, you see. So, I would say that,
1:07:32well, I'm not going to get into good or
1:07:34evil, you see, judging or making people
1:07:37feel guilty, but in any case, that's
1:07:39what comes to me, you see. Now, using
1:07:41these substances precisely in a healing
1:07:44process. I know in particular that
1:07:47there is one of the hospitals, uh, in
1:07:49Brussels, particularly the Bordet
1:07:51hospital, I think, where psychiatrists,
1:07:53for example, for suicidal people,
1:07:55prescribe ketamine, right, which isn't
1:07:58a psychotropic, right, it's another
1:08:00chemical class entirely. But for
1:08:03example, in particular, I have a friend
1:08:05who was highly suicidal and, in fact,
1:08:07he has two injections of ketamine a
1:08:09month and he's getting through it
1:08:10thanks to that, you see. So, uh, there
1:08:15you go, you see, it can also be used,
1:08:18indeed, for people who say," Well, life
1:08:21is unbearable for me, "and to, to help,
1:08:24you see. That's, that's what I would
1:08:27say. And what about people who, who
1:08:29don't, who don't have, you see, who
1:08:31don't have an addiction, who don't have
1:08:33severe depression, etc., but who have a
1:08:35curiosity and who say to themselves:"
1:08:37Well, it could be a way to learn more
1:08:39about myself. "Do you generally say:"
1:08:42Well, if it's purely curiosity and a
1:08:44bit of spiritual and consciousness
1:08:46tourism, do you advise against it, or
1:08:47does it really depend on a case-by-case
1:08:49basis? "I'm not going to judge and say
1:08:53it's good or it's bad, because I can
1:08:55understand: there are people who go to
1:08:57the Amazon who want to experiment,
1:08:58perhaps out of curiosity. But if it's
1:09:02really an experience out of curiosity,
1:09:05just be vigilant about: what is the
1:09:07substance, has it been cut with
1:09:09something else, who is guiding, and
1:09:11what is the ritual? Those are always
1:09:14the questions to ask yourself. So it's
1:09:16about being vigilant. So there you go,
1:09:19for me, it was a call to Ayahuasca, you
1:09:22see. At some point, they say it's
1:09:24sometimes the plant that calls. Why? I
1:09:27don't know, it just happened that way.
1:09:30Because I had been thinking about it
1:09:31for some time. At one point, I had an
1:09:35experience, I had a chance to do it. It
1:09:37didn't happen, actually. It happened
1:09:39years later, but it was it was there in
1:09:41the seeds. I mean, at one point, there
1:09:43was something in me that, well, that
1:09:46was pushing me toward it, and I'm
1:09:48grateful that, in fact, when it did
1:09:50happen, I was ready and with the right
1:09:53people.
1:09:56>> OK. So if I understand correctly, you
1:09:58shouldn't force things. If you feel
1:09:59naturally called, well, maybe follow
1:10:01your little intuition. If not, well,
1:10:03maybe it's better not to. Rémy, I'm
1:10:06going to surprise you, but that's the
1:10:08case for a lot of things in life. Yeah,
1:10:10tell me.
1:10:11>> Rémy, I'm going to surprise you, I
1:10:13would not advise anyone to take
1:10:15Ayahuasca. It is a very specific path.
1:10:21There are other paths for spiritual
1:10:23development. Well, it was on my path,
1:10:25you know, because I think it was
1:10:27written, I’d say, in my soul's memory
1:10:30to experience this. But there are other
1:10:33tons of other paths, you see. There it
1:10:36is, that’s what I’m doing.
1:10:39>> Superb! Well listen Olivier, thank you
1:10:41so much for helping us see this subject
1:10:42more clearly. This is one of the first
1:10:44times, I think, that I’ve touched on
1:10:45this subject on the channel. Uh, I
1:10:47learned a lot of things. I hope the
1:10:48people watching us did too. Where I
1:10:50quite agree with you is, uh, maybe
1:10:52it’s a good thing that it isn’t
1:10:54accessible everywhere. Where I find it
1:10:56a shame is that, perhaps, we have a
1:10:59tendency to throw the baby out with the
1:11:01bathwater, and to not even allow it in
1:11:03a controlled research setting when
1:11:05there are such hyper-uh convincing or,
1:11:09at any rate, promising results. Uh, I
1:11:11find that a shame. It's changing.
1:11:13>> I find that a shame. It's evolving.
1:11:15>> It's interesting to see to what extent
1:11:17cultures do not evolve at the same
1:11:19speed. Uh, and it's also surprising to
1:11:22see that France is not at the forefront
1:11:24, because we might think that France is
1:11:26a bit revolutionary in its approach,
1:11:28but on many levels, sometimes not so
1:11:30much. But anyway, it's interesting to
1:11:33see that things are evolving and that
1:11:34we are far from having all the answers
1:11:36yet. Olivier, thank you very much for
1:11:38being with us. I have three short
1:11:39questions that I ask all my guests at
1:11:40the end of an episode. The first one is
1:11:42, what does living a fulfilled life
1:11:43mean to you?
1:11:45>> Okay. Well, for me, living a fulfilled
1:11:49life—because it can be different—
1:11:52for everyone, it's first about finding
1:11:54inner peace, making peace with one's
1:11:56memories, making peace with oneself,
1:11:59and learning to love oneself. And it's
1:12:02a journey. You know, everything in this
1:12:06universe starts with love, and
1:12:08everything ends—the alpha and the
1:12:10omega—with love, and it all comes
1:12:12together, really. But not love, you see
1:12:14, in the sense of, well, you know," I
1:12:16love you "and then later" I reject you.
1:12:18"That's not it, that's not it. But it's
1:12:20really at some point being able to
1:12:23learn to live with yourself, that's
1:12:25already huge. Great. And if you had one
1:12:29piece of advice to give to 20-year-old
1:12:30Olivier, what would it be? Well,
1:12:35speaking of 20-year-old Olivier, I
1:12:38would also be speaking to all the young
1:12:42people listening to us who are also 20,
1:12:45or around 20: it's to keep the faith,
1:12:48and hope, and courage, because we are
1:12:52heading into, well, very turbulent
1:12:55times globally, you know. We're going
1:12:58...and I've actually had visions, well,
1:13:00but keeping the hope that everything
1:13:02will eventually work out, and these are
1:13:04just the tribulations for a new world.
1:13:08So I mean, just stay upright and
1:13:10aligned, centered, even when the storm
1:13:13is there. And well, stay in action
1:13:17obviously if necessary, but there will
1:13:20be a dawn and a new sun that will rise.
1:13:24In any case, well, that's what I would
1:13:26like to tell 20-year-old Olivier, but
1:13:28also all the young people watching us,
1:13:30it's really to keep the faith and hope.
1:13:33Great, thank you Olivier for that. And
1:13:35finally, one last little question.
1:13:37Where can people learn more about you
1:13:39or get in touch with you? I think you
1:13:41don't offer ceremonies. Uh, and that's
1:13:45what's even more surprising, I forgot
1:13:46to mention it at the start of the
1:13:47episode, but you have a very classic
1:13:49profile, a very classic job, and this
1:13:50is just a passion you have on the side
1:13:52from which you don't really earn much.
1:13:55Uh, so there you go, if people, are you
1:13:57open to people contacting you if they
1:13:58ever have questions and so on, and uh,
1:14:00if people are curious and would like to
1:14:02learn more, uh, what would be the
1:14:04resources you would suggest?
1:14:06>> OK. Well, there is my new site
1:14:09oliviercaron.com where I can also offer
1:14:12, as you said, I don’t provide
1:14:13substances, but I can support the
1:14:15integration, right. There you go, if a
1:14:19person is really on a spiritual path
1:14:21and at some point, they need to put
1:14:23words to the experiences, that I can do
1:14:25as a psychotherapist. And also, I have
1:14:29uh created a blog, teachingplants, so
1:14:32teachingplants.blogspot.com. Maybe you
1:14:38could put it in the comments to provide
1:14:40plenty of information on ayahuasca:
1:14:43access to videos, books, uh scientific
1:14:45literature too, regarding all the
1:14:47scientific research on ayahuasca,
1:14:49regarding legality, and also personal
1:14:52experiences shared in the Amazon. So,
1:14:56there you go, and in fact, I created
1:14:57this blog precisely for those young
1:14:59people who want to experience ayahuasca
1:15:01but don't want to go about it the wrong
1:15:02way. There you go. Great! Listen
1:15:06Olivier, thank you for all this work of
1:15:09democratization and teaching. Olivier,
1:15:12thank you for being with us today and
1:15:14for sharing everything you have shared.
1:15:15It was super interesting.
1:15:17>> Thank you Réy.
1:15:19>> I am Réy. You are watching point0 and
1:15:22I will see you in the next episode.
1:15:24Ciao! Thank you for being part of the
1:15:26adventure. If you are ever looking for
1:15:28a trusted practitioner to help you on
1:15:30your own journey, I created collectif.0
1:15:32, a free platform for practitioners and
1:15:34users based on a referral system that
1:15:36allows you to find the trusted holistic
1:15:38practitioner that suits you. The link
1:15:40is in the video description.

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